Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 11/27/18 8:08 PM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:


__


It is a while ago that I struggled with a USB modem but your device
should be recognized by your system (supported since 2.6.18).

A old bug i found was that usbstorage is too fast for usbswitch. The
remedy would be to create a file /etc/modprobe.d/usb-storage.conf:

options usb-storage delay_use=3


or a higher number.



Ok, will try that next week. Tnx!
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Skoric (sko...@uns.ac.rs):

> Hello all,
> 
> What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei modems:
> 
> - Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such)
> - Huawei USB modem E3372 4G
> - Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G

Try Web-searching for specific model numbers + 'Linux', and see if you
can find relevant tips.  Maybe
https://wiki.debian.org/Modem/3G#Extra_Steps_for_the_Huawei_Cards
for the middle one, for example.

Maybe
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/213663/huawei-e3372s-linux-rasbian-incoming-connections-problem
for the model E3372.

Maybe https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2677153 for the model
E5573C.

I haven't read any of those in detail.  I just wanted to illustrate that
you can find _possibly_ promising coverage of Linux support for, e.g.,
the Huawei E3372 by Web-searching for 'Huawei E3372 Linux' (and then, of
course, favouring more-clueful sites among search hits, e.g., the Arch
Linux wiki, Stack Exchange, etc.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> Back in 2002, I made a pictorial HOWTO wrt dealing with Wintendo-only
> modems: https://angband.pl/fun/winmodem/ -- as you can see, they can be a
> tough nut to crack.  This HOWTO hasn't lost a bit of its value.

You da man!

Back in the 1990s, I was writing stuff like
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/modems.html#winmodem .

(Also from the same page, even before I got to the bit about winmodems:
Q:  I'm having problems with my internal PC modem. Will you help me? 
A:  Yes: Your internal modem, if roasted and ground sufficiently finely,
will make surprisingly strong espresso. [...])

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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 27-11-18 13:53, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 11/23/18 5:02 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 01:28:00PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>>
>>>    Right, many USB modems show up as something different than a
>>> networking device when they are plugged-in.  I haven't used any of them
>>> for a long time, but I remember many of them show up as a CDROM device
>>> which carries the Windows drivers and/or some Windows utility.  The
>>> actual modem shows up after the CDROM device is unmounted or ejected.
>>
>> Ie, usbmodeswitch.  This might or might not work with modemmanager --
>> in my
>> experience, it works _randomly_.  Including having the dongle suddenly
>> switch while the connection is running, with obviously fatal
>> results.  And
>> modemmanager seems to be unable to recover.
>>
>
> Ok, today I paid a visit to the seniors' club to see what can be done.
> I found their old USB stick modem, inserted it into the Devuan box ...:
>
> root@devuan:~# lsusb
> Bus 002 Device 005: ID 19d2:0017 ZTE WCDMA Technologies MSM
> Bus 002 Device 003: ID 0951:1642 Kingston Technology DT101 G2
> Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
> Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> Bus 003 Device 002: ID :3825
> Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> root@devuan:~# usb_modeswitch -v 19d2 -p 0017
> Look for default devices ...
>    product ID matched
>  Found devices in default mode (1)
> Access device 005 on bus 002
> Current configuration number is 1
> Use interface number 0
>
> USB description data (for identification)
> -
> Manufacturer: ZTE,Incorporated
>  Product: ZTE WCDMA Technologies MSM
>   Serial No.: MF6670VIPD01
> -
> Warning: no switching method given. See documentation
> -> Run lsusb to note any changes. Bye!
>
> root@devuan:~#
>
>
> ... then I tried again but with some more options:
>
>
> root@devuan:~# usb_modeswitch -v 19d2 -p 0017 -K
> Look for default devices ...
>    product ID matched
>  Found devices in default mode (1)
> Access device 005 on bus 002
> Current configuration number is 1
> Use interface number 0
> Use endpoints 0x01 (out) and 0x81 (in)
>
> USB description data (for identification)
> -
> Manufacturer: ZTE,Incorporated
>  Product: ZTE WCDMA Technologies MSM
>   Serial No.: MF6670VIPD01
> -
> Sending standard EJECT sequence
> Looking for active driver ...
>  OK, driver detached
> Set up interface 0
> Use endpoint 0x01 for message sending ...
> Trying to send message 1 to endpoint 0x01 ...
>  OK, message successfully sent
> Read the response to message 1 (CSW) ...
>  Response reading failed (error -7)
>  Device is gone, skip any further commands
> -> Run lsusb to note any changes. Bye!
>
> root@devuan:~# lsusb
> Bus 002 Device 005: ID 19d2:0017 ZTE WCDMA Technologies MSM
> Bus 002 Device 003: ID 0951:1642 Kingston Technology DT101 G2
> Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
> Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> Bus 003 Device 002: ID :3825
> Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
> root@devuan:~# usb_modeswitch -v 19d2 -p 0017 -K -R
> Look for default devices ...
>    product ID matched
>  Found devices in default mode (1)
> Access device 009 on bus 002
> Current configuration number is 1
> Use interface number 0
> Use endpoints 0x01 (out) and 0x81 (in)
>
> USB description data (for identification)
> -
> Manufacturer: ZTE,Incorporated
>  Product: ZTE WCDMA Technologies MSM
>   Serial No.: MF6670VIPD01
> -
> Sending standard EJECT sequence
> Looking for active driver ...
>  OK, driver detached
> Set up interface 0
> Use endpoint 0x01 for message sending ...
> Trying to send message 1 to endpoint 0x01 ...
>  OK, message successfully sent
> Read the response to message 1 (CSW) ...
>  Response reading failed (error -7)
>  Device is gone, skip any further commands
> Device handle empty, skip USB reset
> -> Run lsusb to note any changes. Bye!
>
> root@devuan:~#
>
>
> ... seems that -K (eject memory stich driver) and -R (reset) did not
> change much (if anything). Any idea?
>
>>>     The package modemmanager is supposed to take care of the correct
>>> initialization of a number of known and supported modems using udev's
>>> rules (the ASCII package install 18 such rules).  Yet, I think
>>> sometimes
>>> human intervention is still needed, and of course several USB modems
>>> (as
>>> well as PCMCIA/CardBus ones and some WiFi dongles and Access Points)
>>> are
>>> partially, poorly or not supported at all.
>>

Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Alessandro Selli]

On 23/11/18 at 17:02, Adam Borowski wrote:
> Back in 2002, I made a pictorial HOWTO wrt dealing with Wintendo-only
> modems: https://angband.pl/fun/winmodem/ -- as you can see, they can be a
> tough nut to crack.  This HOWTO hasn't lost a bit of its value.


  LOL!  This is getting mad a a piece of hardware!  You only spared it
the flame-thrower!



-- 
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 01:28:00PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 23/11/18 at 12:02, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> > On 11/22/18 4:28 PM, ael wrote:
> >> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 03:10:15PM +0100, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> >>>
> >>> What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei
> >>> modems:
> >>>
> >>> - Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such)
> >>> - Huawei USB modem E3372 4G
> >>> - Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G

> > I found some info on the net that such dongles might require to be
> > switched from the bulk memory stick mode to the modem mode, or
> > something like that, to be able to activate in Linux.

>   Right, many USB modems show up as something different than a
> networking device when they are plugged-in.  I haven't used any of them
> for a long time, but I remember many of them show up as a CDROM device
> which carries the Windows drivers and/or some Windows utility.  The
> actual modem shows up after the CDROM device is unmounted or ejected.

Ie, usbmodeswitch.  This might or might not work with modemmanager -- in my
experience, it works _randomly_.  Including having the dongle suddenly
switch while the connection is running, with obviously fatal results.  And
modemmanager seems to be unable to recover.

>    The package modemmanager is supposed to take care of the correct
> initialization of a number of known and supported modems using udev's
> rules (the ASCII package install 18 such rules).  Yet, I think sometimes
> human intervention is still needed, and of course several USB modems (as
> well as PCMCIA/CardBus ones and some WiFi dongles and Access Points) are
> partially, poorly or not supported at all.

Alas, we're deeply in the "sacrifice a young black goat" land.  The quality
of drivers, firmware and _hardware_ is so egregious that it's far more
effort effective to take an old phone and set up tethering.

I'd point at a particular piece of crap from A4Tech as a newcomer to my
shitlist, but I imagine they're on par with their competition.


Back in 2002, I made a pictorial HOWTO wrt dealing with Wintendo-only
modems: https://angband.pl/fun/winmodem/ -- as you can see, they can be a
tough nut to crack.  This HOWTO hasn't lost a bit of its value.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Alessandro Selli]

On 23/11/18 at 12:02, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 11/22/18 4:28 PM, ael wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 03:10:15PM +0100, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
>>>
>>> What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei
>>> modems:
>>>
>>> - Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such)
>>> - Huawei USB modem E3372 4G
>>> - Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G
>>
>
> 
>
>> Above was on Debian. I imagine that your dongles are more recent: maybe
>> quite different.
>>
>> I wrote some notes on getting a huwai dongle going, but I don't have
>> them to hand just now. I think that most of the information was on line.
>>
>
> Well, yesterday I visited some ISP shops here and they mostly offered
> dongles or routers as the second and third above, E3372 4G and/or
> E5573C 4G. And in the veterans club here they had an older dongle
> (i.e. the first one above, 3G) that was earlier used at some Wintendo
> machine. I inserted it for test into a dual-boot Wintendo / Devuan
> Jessie 64bit and nothing happened. (On the other side, Wintendo
> installed drivers and app from files located within the dongle memory.)
>
> I found some info on the net that such dongles might require to be
> switched from the bulk memory stick mode to the modem mode, or
> something like that, to be able to activate in Linux.


  Right, many USB modems show up as something different than a
networking device when they are plugged-in.  I haven't used any of them
for a long time, but I remember many of them show up as a CDROM device
which carries the Windows drivers and/or some Windows utility.  The
actual modem shows up after the CDROM device is unmounted or ejected. 
IIRC many others instead show up as serial devices and only start
operating as a networking device after they're fed a firmware image.

   The package modemmanager is supposed to take care of the correct
initialization of a number of known and supported modems using udev's
rules (the ASCII package install 18 such rules).  Yet, I think sometimes
human intervention is still needed, and of course several USB modems (as
well as PCMCIA/CardBus ones and some WiFi dongles and Access Points) are
partially, poorly or not supported at all.


Alessandro


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VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 11/22/18 4:28 PM, ael wrote:


On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 03:10:15PM +0100, Miroslav Skoric wrote:


What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei modems:

- Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such)
- Huawei USB modem E3372 4G
- Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G







Above was on Debian. I imagine that your dongles are more recent: maybe
quite different.

I wrote some notes on getting a huwai dongle going, but I don't have
them to hand just now. I think that most of the information was on line.



Well, yesterday I visited some ISP shops here and they mostly offered 
dongles or routers as the second and third above, E3372 4G and/or E5573C 
4G. And in the veterans club here they had an older dongle (i.e. the 
first one above, 3G) that was earlier used at some Wintendo machine. I 
inserted it for test into a dual-boot Wintendo / Devuan Jessie 64bit and 
nothing happened. (On the other side, Wintendo installed drivers and app 
from files located within the dongle memory.)


I found some info on the net that such dongles might require to be 
switched from the bulk memory stick mode to the modem mode, or something 
like that, to be able to activate in Linux.


However, I asked in this list here because I wondered if Devuan distro 
might have some special requirements regarding running such modem 
dongles. So, in general I wonder what software packages from repository 
are used with such type of peripherals.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] packaging kubernetes

[aitor]

Hi Enrico,

On 19/11/18 19:34, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

Maybe we should discuss how to bring extra packages (that aren't
covered by Debian at all) into the distro. Any ideas ?


--mtx


This week i've been working on the live-sdk and amprolla (gnuinos jessie 
is comming soon). I removed all the stuff related with the linux kernel 
comming from debian, including the updates, the security-updates and the 
backports (i did some minor commits in amprolla for that).


So, I might be able to build an extra repository no covered by debian if 
necessary.


Cheers,

Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[ael]

On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 03:10:15PM +0100, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> 
> What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei modems:
> 
> - Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such)
> - Huawei USB modem E3372 4G
> - Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G

I used to use a couple of dongle/modems. I used "raw" chat scripts.

As I recall, the dongles were recognised and connected by the kernal via
/dev/ttyUSBn, with n = 0,1,2,3,...
Or maybe the other  /dev/??? name for a serial usb device: I forget for
the moment. Perhaps I had to load a module explicity, but I don't
think so.

The horrible Modem Manager sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. I
hated it because it was a complex black box that I couldn't easily
debug when it failed. It did (does?) have an associated database of
network operators and their various connection protocols/passwords.
Checking that database might be useful for information in writing chat
scripts. 

Above was on Debian. I imagine that your dongles are more recent: maybe
quite different.

I wrote some notes on getting a huwai dongle going, but I don't have
them to hand just now. I think that most of the information was on line.

ael

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[DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems

[Miroslav Skoric]

Hello all,

What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei modems:

- Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such)
- Huawei USB modem E3372 4G
- Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G

Any good experience with those? Seems that those only support Wintendo 
and Mac.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] packaging kubernetes

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 08.11.18 15:12, Nico Schottelius wrote:
> 
> Hey mtx,
> 
> that is AWESOME. It is *THE* thing we are looking at into for ungleich
> and if there was direct support of k8s in Devuan, it could potentially
> enable many more people to use Devuan as the default infrastructure OS.

thx.

Maybe we should discuss how to bring extra packages (that aren't
covered by Debian at all) into the distro. Any ideas ?


--mtx

-- 
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Free software and Linux embedded engineering
i...@metux.net -- +49-151-27565287
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5

[Daniel Abrecht]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 19/11/2018 02.01, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> ..you mirror straight off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/, or
> off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ and pull some amprolla 
> style stunt?

I don't pull any amprolla like stunts, I just use apt-mirror.

I kind of mirror pkgmaster.devuan.org once per day, but using it's
tor/onion address (devuanfwojg73k6r.onion), which is kind of
unnecessary, but I didn't have a reason not do that either, so why not.

I'm currently mirroring ascii and beowulf, including the -updates,
- -security, -backports, and -proposed repos. I mirror the amd64, arm64,
armel and armhf architectures. The stuff I mirror is also accessible
at https://mirror.dpa.li/, but my Internet connection is sometimes a
bit unreliable, so I don't recommend using it.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 00:34:58 +, Daniel wrote in message 
<5a3caca3-ebb2-9ab9-014d-0fe49f6f1...@danielabrecht.ch>:

> On 18/11/2018 00.45, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > ..you want to do a separate "make repo" and a "make clean-repo-too",
> > and possibly move the repo out of the build/ tree, say, to repo/ or
> > repos/ if you have multiple repos now or later.  
> 
> Ok, all git repos are now cloned into the repo/ folder. I've also
> added a few more make targets for resetting, removing and cloning
> repos, and some other stuff.

..sweet.

> > ..another tip is run your own lan repo mirror and point REPO =
> > there, that way you can feed _several_ build boxes cheaply.  
> 
> I already use a local mirror for the devuan packages for the 
> debootstrapping part and some other stuff, but thanks for the
> suggestion.

..you mirror straight off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/, 
or off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ and pull some amprolla 
style stunt?  


..me, I mirror http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ and Debian's amd64,
i386, hurd-i386 and source (and will add kfreebsd-amd64, kfreebsd-i386
once I have the disk space) and plan to pull some stunts to see which 
way is easier to build a merged/ mirror, amprolla, symlink scripts
controlled by https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt etc, 
once I get around to it.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5

[Daniel Abrecht]

On 18/11/2018 00.45, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

..you want to do a separate "make repo" and a "make clean-repo-too",
and possibly move the repo out of the build/ tree, say, to repo/ or
repos/ if you have multiple repos now or later.


Ok, all git repos are now cloned into the repo/ folder. I've also added 
a few more make targets for resetting, removing and cloning repos, and 
some other stuff.



..another tip is run your own lan repo mirror and point REPO = there,
that way you can feed _several_ build boxes cheaply.


I already use a local mirror for the devuan packages for the 
debootstrapping part and some other stuff, but thanks for the suggestion.


Regards,
Daniel Abrecht
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 21:26:07 +, Daniel wrote in message 
<0ed76638-06d3-bf40-7485-38905d46d...@danielabrecht.ch>:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've taken a look at purisms' image-builder scripts, and then made my 
> own for the devkit based on them to get an overview of all the 
> components and how things work together. I don't have a devkit yet,
> so I don't have any idea if the images generated by my scripts will
> actually boot, but for those interested, this is what I've got so far:
> https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/librem5-image-builder
> https://gitlab.com/DanielAbrecht/librem5-image-builder
> 
> It creates a really basic image at the moment, with almost nothing 
> installed. But I think that's good enough for now, I can still add
> more things if it turns out to actually work.
> 
> Also, I probably forgot to list a lot of the necessary packages to
> use this.

..you want to do a separate "make repo" and a "make clean-repo-too",
and possibly move the repo out of the build/ tree, say, to repo/ or
repos/ if you have multiple repos now or later.

..such extra heavy repo/ etc trees are easily symlinked back into the 
build/ tree.  

..another tip is run your own lan repo mirror and point REPO = there,
that way you can feed _several_ build boxes cheaply.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5

[Alessandro Selli]

On 17/11/18 at 22:26, Daniel Abrecht wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've taken a look at purisms' image-builder scripts, and then made my
> own for the devkit based on them to get an overview of all the
> components and how things work together. I don't have a devkit yet, so
> I don't have any idea if the images generated by my scripts will
> actually boot, but for those interested, this is what I've got so far:
> https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/librem5-image-builder
> https://gitlab.com/DanielAbrecht/librem5-image-builder
>
> It creates a really basic image at the moment, with almost nothing
> installed. But I think that's good enough for now, I can still add
> more things if it turns out to actually work.
>
> Also, I probably forgot to list a lot of the necessary packages to use
> this.


  Thank you, I love this pro-active Devuan-for-Purism5 image building work.

  I will surely try it to land a Devuan image on the first Purism5 I'll
put my hands on.



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[DNG] Devuan on a librem5

[Daniel Abrecht]

Hi everyone,

I've taken a look at purisms' image-builder scripts, and then made my 
own for the devkit based on them to get an overview of all the 
components and how things work together. I don't have a devkit yet, so I 
don't have any idea if the images generated by my scripts will actually 
boot, but for those interested, this is what I've got so far:

https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/librem5-image-builder
https://gitlab.com/DanielAbrecht/librem5-image-builder

It creates a really basic image at the moment, with almost nothing 
installed. But I think that's good enough for now, I can still add more 
things if it turns out to actually work.


Also, I probably forgot to list a lot of the necessary packages to use 
this.


Regards,
Daniel Abrecht
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 11/01/2018 10:20 AM, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 01/11/18 at 13:19, m712 wrote:
>> Your best bet is a killfile since he's guaranteed to bomb our inboxes after 
>> your message.

(not asking for a reply)

What makes you think that?

I am entitled to share my opinions no matter how unpopular they are.

Why can the other side constantly repeat what they have to say but I can't?

Is one person vs the entire tech media and millions in VC capital really
so terrible that I must be silenced?

> 
> 
>   Never mind, I'll stick to my statement and will ignore him.
> 
>   However, I'm happy to read today there is more activity in the
> open-hardware front:
> 
> 
> https://blog.system76.com/post/179592732883/system76-on-us-manufacturing-and-open-hardware
> 
> 
> "So, what makes Thelio open hardware? 

Nothing unfortunately - that term has been diluted quite a bit recently.

RISC-V is the only real open hardware out there where the files you are
provided really could make every bit of your computer not just an
overpriced case.

> The Thelio design we’ve worked on
> for three years is open source. That means anyone can study, modify,
> distribute, make, and sell the design. You can send the design files to
> a metal shop to make your own Thelio. 

* with entirely proprietary components *

Metal shops don't make computers!

> You can adapt the design for your
> needs. Open source hardware is the physical version of open source
> software. We believe it’s important to apply the same passion we have
> about software freedom to the hardware itself. The open hardware
> community is young and small compared to open source software. We hope
> adding Thelio and Thelio Io to the ranks of open hardware will encourage
> others to join the movement and make their designs free as well. We’re
> very excited to see what people will do with free hardware designs. This
> is relatively new territory."

It isn't - other companies have been doing this for decades just without
millions in VC capital and slick madison avenue marketing teams who have
connections in the tech media.

> 
>   I am yet to see what they've done so far, but it seems they are close
> to start production.
> 
>   Forget it, it was straight on their home page:
> 
> https://system76.com/desktops
> 
> The Open Hardware Computer Is Coming 

Only Risc-V stuff can be considered open hardware - what sys76 is doing
is simply a motherboard design for a collection of proprietary computer
components.

They can't legally call that computer "made in usa" since a case isn't a
computer - the board and chips are and not one of them is made here thus
all they are doing is selling american made computer cases not american
made computers.

Having a computer legally made in usa is difficult as the standards are
strict (as they should be)

The legal standard is "all or virtually all" components of a finished
product - therefore *everyone* currently claiming it is being dishonest
either a little bit (eg: raptorcs with the us made power cpus and us
assembled motherboards but with foreign everything else) or entirely
(eg: system76 and a litany of industrial OEM's doing simple screwdriver
assemblies and calling their hardware us made to get a shady edge in
government contracts)

> Eventually, all that will be left are proprietary hardware
> initialization bits and convincing Intel and AMD to open up there

If google can't convince intel to do that then no one can and I
guarantee companies like this will still be saying the same thing in 10
years "just a little longer" rather than dropping x86 as they should.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/17/18 1:19 PM, Miroslav Skoric wrote:


Hi all,

I recently installed Devuan Jessie on a computer for presentations via 
large TV. And that machine is also directly wired in a small LAN to 
another box that runs some old Ubuntu (probably 12.04 or so, it is also 
just to tell the audience what Linux is about). Machines can ping each 
other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to introduce 
Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or like. 
Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to those 
boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded elsewhere and 
brought on USB or CD.


Misko



Ok, I did it by adding Vinagre to the Devuan box (it wasn't there after 
initial installation), and enabling Vino at Ubuntu box to accept 
incoming remote desktop requests (Vino was already in Ubuntu box after 
install).


And it works well for now, so I can open an Ubuntu desktop from a Devuan 
machine. Remarks:


- From a pedagogical point of view (I consider my audience as a bit too 
old 'kids' for computing), I wanted to make it simple, which means 
without some more advanced but also more complex solutions.


- I wanted to do it with available repository options only.

- Adding Vinagre to the Devuan box required resolving one or two 
additional dependencies that were not reported during my first try of 
installing Vinagre. (I had to download some additional package(s) to 
satisfy dependencies, and I manage that the second try.) I suppose it 
might be related to that Vinagre is listed as a remote desktop viewer 
for the Gnome desktop, and this Devuan installation is xfce. Whatever 
... it did not ask to add Gnome or systemd or like. Good.


- I tested X2Go client installations on my home Debian boxes. Although 
the client looks nice, I abandoned that approach because I did not find 
X2Go server as a repository option. (I am not fond of suggesting my 
newcomer audience to install 3rd party software that is not yet 
'official' for repositories.)


So that's it for now. Thank you all for opinions.

Misko

https://www.linkedin.com/in/miroslavskoric/
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[spiralofhope]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 08:55:55 +0100
Andreas Messer  wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 04, 2018 at 12:11:44AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > It's a _touchscreen_ phone, not a "real" computer.  For that you
> > want Gemini or GPD Pocket.  The input device is not fit for any
> > real hacking.  You at most connect to it from the outside.
> 
> Well, according to their information it is going to have an USB-C with
> HDMI output. So Id expect you'ld be able to connect a standard
> monitor and USB Keyboard/Mice.

Not that I'd get one (I have too many toys), but the phone+desktop has
been a dream for some time now.  e.g.:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge

Personally I'm holding out for a Pyra.  Maybe with a bluetooth headset
it would make for a fine phone..

http://pyra-handheld.com/

They'll be putting Debian on it.  I expect it'll be straightforward to
put Devuan on it, since their previous system (OpenPandora) had people
putting Arch and Slackware on it, and there's a good community who'll
hack away at interesting problems.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Andreas Messer]

On Sun, Nov 04, 2018 at 12:11:44AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> It's a _touchscreen_ phone, not a "real" computer.  For that you want Gemini
> or GPD Pocket.  The input device is not fit for any real hacking.  You at
> most connect to it from the outside.

Well, according to their information it is going to have an USB-C with
HDMI output. So Id expect you'ld be able to connect a standard monitor and
USB Keyboard/Mice.

Looking to their first planning with iMX.6, the devkit even had an SATA
connector :-)

> >   I'd love to try upgrading it's PureOS to Devuan too.  It shouldn't be
> > too hard, as the Librem5 is designed to allow a number of distributions
> > to run on it.  Or at least it was, I can no longer find references on
> > https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ of alternative distributions that
> > will be installable on the Purism5.
> 
> Crossgrading might be not trivial; vendors of such phones tend to customize
> them in a way that makes running an off-the-shelf system require re-doing a
> ridiculous amount of non-upstreamed changes.

Regarding what they write on their site, many of their development
is made on Debian Buster. They just recently announced that their own
'distro' is making some progress. Lots of their changes are pushed back
upstream, so I think we can expected that it will run other distrbutions.

cheers,
Andreas



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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 11:14:01PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>   AFAIK the customizations concern mainly the graphical interface, the
> presence of some drivers specific to the new device and a particular
> selection of applications

Sounds to me that fixing regressions in a base distribution is out of scope
for their project.  You can't expect everyone to spend their time on a
particular part -- they care about a new GUI and drivers, not about how to
start daemons.

Yeah, systemd is a huge problem, but for a GUI system with no real
customizable daemons it doesn't really matter, and things that used to work
did get broken by systemd integration" on non-systemd systems.  So phone
makers pick what -for them- works.

>   I'm curious to know how close it's going to be to a classic laptop
> GNU/Linux installation.  For instance, will it have a *syslog daemon
> with logs in /var/log?  And what about cron, at, locate etc?  Maybe not
> out-of-the-box, but I expect the packages for these services to be
> installable form the repos.  I really hope it's not going to be as far a
> departure from the classic distribution as Ubuntu Touch (aka Ubuntu
> Phone) was.

It's a _touchscreen_ phone, not a "real" computer.  For that you want Gemini
or GPD Pocket.  The input device is not fit for any real hacking.  You at
most connect to it from the outside.

>   I'd love to try upgrading it's PureOS to Devuan too.  It shouldn't be
> too hard, as the Librem5 is designed to allow a number of distributions
> to run on it.  Or at least it was, I can no longer find references on
> https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ of alternative distributions that
> will be installable on the Purism5.

Crossgrading might be not trivial; vendors of such phones tend to customize
them in a way that makes running an off-the-shelf system require re-doing a
ridiculous amount of non-upstreamed changes.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/11/18 at 23:18, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Friday 02 November 2018 at 23:10:48, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>
>> On 02/11/18 at 13:36, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>>> Uness there is already a desktop environment adapted to the needs of
>>> mobile touch devices.
>>>
>>> Or they provide it.  Unless they rely on systemd, of course.
>> https://pureos.net/
>>
>> Free/libre software
>>
>> PureOS is a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux, with the best
>> privacy-protecting software applications preinstalled.
>>
>>   So, it does come with systemd.  But it should be possible to migrate
>> to Devuan.
> That's an interesting idea, and it depends mainly on what they mean by 
> "derivative", I think.
>
> Okay, so they have "the best privacy-protecting software applications 
> preinstalled", but I wonder what else is different from standard Debian?
>
> I might well be interesting to do a dist-upgrade which PureOS wasn't 
> expecting 
> to happen to it, and find out what the outcome is.


  AFAIK the customizations concern mainly the graphical interface, the
presence of some drivers specific to the new device and a particular
selection of applications that (maybe) violates a number of Debian's
(and LSB) guidelines.

  Just to name one, they are going to replace Gnome's shell with a shell
of their own, Phosh:

https://developer.puri.sm/Environments/Phosh.html#phosh

  I'm curious to know how close it's going to be to a classic laptop
GNU/Linux installation.  For instance, will it have a *syslog daemon
with logs in /var/log?  And what about cron, at, locate etc?  Maybe not
out-of-the-box, but I expect the packages for these services to be
installable form the repos.  I really hope it's not going to be as far a
departure from the classic distribution as Ubuntu Touch (aka Ubuntu
Phone) was.

  I'd love to try upgrading it's PureOS to Devuan too.  It shouldn't be
too hard, as the Librem5 is designed to allow a number of distributions
to run on it.  Or at least it was, I can no longer find references on
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ of alternative distributions that
will be installable on the Purism5.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Andreas Messer]

On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 08:02:26PM +, Daniel Abrecht wrote:
> [...]
> I hope they ship the devkit soon, I want to install devuan on it too.
> Getting a Desktop Environment and Apps to work so it is usable could then
> become a bit tricky though.

good to know. I'm also looking forward to receive the devkit and planning to
use it with Devuan. Maybe we can get in touch to help each other. 

cheers,
Andreas


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:20:27 +0100, Alessandro wrote in message 
<180ec613-1a33-1719-65d3-8aa7a2192...@linux.com>:

>   Forget it, it was straight on their home page:
> 
> https://system76.com/desktops

...which points to: https://system76.com/pop and
https://github.com/pop-os .

..one problem I see might kill them, is systemd, looks like 
their default desktop is gnome 3:
https://github.com/search?q=org%3Apop-os+systemd=Commits
https://github.com/search?q=org%3Apop-os+systemd=Issues
https://github.com/search?q=org%3Apop-os+systemd=Topics


..now this is sweet: https://system76.com/servers/starling

..they know of us, Slackware etc systemd-free alternatives?


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 20:02:26 +, Daniel wrote in message 
:

...
 
> All the software is publicly available on their gitlab:
> https://source.puri.sm/Librem5


..found this, _are_ they putting systemd on their cell phone OS?:
https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/librem-buildbot/issues/1

..it's in all their other stuff, AFAICT:
https://source.puri.sm/pureos/core/systemd


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Antony Stone]

On Friday 02 November 2018 at 23:10:48, Alessandro Selli wrote:

> On 02/11/18 at 13:36, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > Uness there is already a desktop environment adapted to the needs of
> > mobile touch devices.
> > 
> > Or they provide it.  Unless they rely on systemd, of course.
> 
> https://pureos.net/
> 
> Free/libre software
> 
> PureOS is a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux, with the best
> privacy-protecting software applications preinstalled.
> 
>   So, it does come with systemd.  But it should be possible to migrate
> to Devuan.

That's an interesting idea, and it depends mainly on what they mean by 
"derivative", I think.

Okay, so they have "the best privacy-protecting software applications 
preinstalled", but I wonder what else is different from standard Debian?

I might well be interesting to do a dist-upgrade which PureOS wasn't expecting 
to happen to it, and find out what the outcome is.


Antony.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/11/18 at 13:36, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>
> Uness there is already a desktop environment adapted to the needs of 
> mobile touch devices.
>
> Or they provide it.  Unless they rely on systemd, of course.


https://pureos.net/


Free/libre software

PureOS is a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux, with the best
privacy-protecting software applications preinstalled.


  So, it does come with systemd.  But it should be possible to migrate
to Devuan.



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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 08:02:26PM +, Daniel Abrecht wrote:
> On 31/10/2018 15.00, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 09:44:48AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > > Hendrik Boom - 31.10.18, 01:49:
> > > > Now they're working on a Purism phone.  They do seem to intend it to
> > > > work with a variety of GNU/Linux systems.  They're currently hoping
> > > > to get some developers to adapt their free software to Purism's
> > > > mobile hardware.
> > > 
> > > AFAIR Purism also contact both the KDE and GNOME communities about
> > > adapting their desktops. Maybe some developers got test machines.
> > 
> > I know they were selling development boards.  But a development board
> > doesn't have the same ergomonic affordances as an actual mobile device.
> 
> I've ordered both back when their crowdfounding campaign was running. The
> devkits aren't for sale anymore, but the phone is still available for
> pre-order.
> 
> The devkits haven't been delivered yet. Initially, they made one with i.MX6
> processor, and posted images of it working. But then they decided to switch
> to the newer i.MX8, and that in addition to some other things delayed things
> a bit. The last estimate I know of was around the middle of October, but
> given the mails their devs accidentally sent to the public development
> mailing list around that time, (they renamed the mailinglist domain
> afterwards to make sure that doesn't happen again), they just got the Bord
> to boot to the console with the new core around that time, and they can't
> make changes to the hardware anymore. So I assume the boards may already
> exist, but I expect until they finish the software side and finally ship
> them, it'll probably take at least another month. The phone has already been
> delayed too.
> 
> All the software is publicly available on their gitlab:
> https://source.puri.sm/Librem5
> 
> They have some documentation for new devs (some stuff needs an update
> though):
> https://developer.puri.sm/
> 
> There are instructions to setup a qemu vm, but I haven't done anything yet,
> because a VM just isn't the same thing.
> 
> The mailing lists for the librem-5 are pretty quiet. They used to read them
> though. Most communication is probably on matrix, but I haven't looked at it
> yet. There is a someone at a mastodon instance somewhere who gives
> interesting updates, I forgot where exactly. Their twitter account mostly
> posts links to the usual boring public stuff, and they don't seam to read
> development questions sent to their twitter account. The mailing lists and
> matrix stuff can be found in the documentation too:
> https://developer.puri.sm/Contact.html
> 
> There have been 21 progress reports as of now:
> https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-1/
> https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-2/
> ... (just replace the number in the url)
> https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-21/
> 
> I hope they ship the devkit soon, I want to install devuan on it too.
> Getting a Desktop Environment and Apps to work so it is usable could then
> become a bit tricky though.

Uness there is already a desktop environment adapted to the needs of 
mobile touch devices.

Or they provide it.  Unless they rely on systemd, of course.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Daniel Abrecht]

On 31/10/2018 15.00, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 09:44:48AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Hendrik Boom - 31.10.18, 01:49:

Now they're working on a Purism phone.  They do seem to intend it to
work with a variety of GNU/Linux systems.  They're currently hoping
to get some developers to adapt their free software to Purism's
mobile hardware.


AFAIR Purism also contact both the KDE and GNOME communities about
adapting their desktops. Maybe some developers got test machines.


I know they were selling development boards.  But a development board
doesn't have the same ergomonic affordances as an actual mobile device.


I've ordered both back when their crowdfounding campaign was running. 
The devkits aren't for sale anymore, but the phone is still available 
for pre-order.


The devkits haven't been delivered yet. Initially, they made one with 
i.MX6 processor, and posted images of it working. But then they decided 
to switch to the newer i.MX8, and that in addition to some other things 
delayed things a bit. The last estimate I know of was around the middle 
of October, but given the mails their devs accidentally sent to the 
public development mailing list around that time, (they renamed the 
mailinglist domain afterwards to make sure that doesn't happen again), 
they just got the Bord to boot to the console with the new core around 
that time, and they can't make changes to the hardware anymore. So I 
assume the boards may already exist, but I expect until they finish the 
software side and finally ship them, it'll probably take at least 
another month. The phone has already been delayed too.


All the software is publicly available on their gitlab:
https://source.puri.sm/Librem5

They have some documentation for new devs (some stuff needs an update 
though):

https://developer.puri.sm/

There are instructions to setup a qemu vm, but I haven't done anything 
yet, because a VM just isn't the same thing.


The mailing lists for the librem-5 are pretty quiet. They used to read 
them though. Most communication is probably on matrix, but I haven't 
looked at it yet. There is a someone at a mastodon instance somewhere 
who gives interesting updates, I forgot where exactly. Their twitter 
account mostly posts links to the usual boring public stuff, and they 
don't seam to read development questions sent to their twitter account. 
The mailing lists and matrix stuff can be found in the documentation too:

https://developer.puri.sm/Contact.html

There have been 21 progress reports as of now:
https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-1/
https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-2/
... (just replace the number in the url)
https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-21/

I hope they ship the devkit soon, I want to install devuan on it too. 
Getting a Desktop Environment and Apps to work so it is usable could 
then become a bit tricky though.


Regards,
Daniel Abrecht
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[m712]

Your best bet is a killfile since he's guaranteed to bomb our inboxes after 
your message.

On November 1, 2018 3:20:43 AM GMT+03:00, Alessandro Selli 
 wrote:
>On 01/11/18 at 00:56, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>> Suffices to sat to demolish whatever you wrote that we're talking of
>a
>> *smartphone*, not laptops!
>
>
>  Sorry, re-reading the thread I figured out the thread started about
>laptops, and a sub-thread initiated by Hendrik Boom (Message-ID:
><20181031004923.g7hyshbtgs63m...@topoi.pooq.com>) considered their
>smartphone too, the Librem5.
>
>  So, concerning the smartphone nothing you wrote applies.  And since
>there are no PowerPC laptops it does not apply to those Puri.sm
>produces, too.
>
>  Everything else you wrote about Puri.sm was debated far and large and
>I'm not wasting further bytes on it.
>
>  Get a life, will you?
>
>
>Alessandro

   m712
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Alessandro Selli]

On 01/11/18 at 00:56, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> Suffices to sat to demolish whatever you wrote that we're talking of a
> *smartphone*, not laptops!


  Sorry, re-reading the thread I figured out the thread started about
laptops, and a sub-thread initiated by Hendrik Boom (Message-ID:
<20181031004923.g7hyshbtgs63m...@topoi.pooq.com>) considered their
smartphone too, the Librem5.

  So, concerning the smartphone nothing you wrote applies.  And since
there are no PowerPC laptops it does not apply to those Puri.sm
produces, too.

  Everything else you wrote about Puri.sm was debated far and large and
I'm not wasting further bytes on it.

  Get a life, will you?


Alessandro



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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Alessandro Selli]

  I was wondering how long before you started again with your misplaced
tirades against Puri.sm.

Suffices to sat to demolish whatever you wrote that we're talking of a
*smartphone*, not laptops!

I.e. something that has no Intel chips inside.  Are there
OpenPOWER-powered smartphones?

  Would you ever do some reading before, or better yet instead, of
barking at everything that moves and is not from IBM?


Alessandro



On 31/10/18 at 23:59, taii...@gmx.com wrote:

> Everyone here knows purism stuff is blobbed right?
>
> Their laptops have coreboot but that isn't open source firmware - the
> hardware init process on their laptops is entirely blobbed (done via
> FSP) and they are are being very dishonest for not stating this up front
> and instead claiming to have "open source firmware"
>
> They also claim their laptops have a disabled ME which is impossible -
> even with HAP on skylake the kernel and bup hw init still run.
>
> Trying to have freedom on modern x86 systems is being naive and beating
> a dead horse at best - an incredibly dishonest scam at worst.
>
> I expect their mobile devices to be just as non-free and dishonest when
> it comes to their touted security (usb isn't modem isolation!)
> considering their track record for ignoring the community and not caring
> what anyone thinks.
>
> Alternatives:
> The g505s is an open cpu/ram init owner controlled ME/PSP free
> alternative to the faux-libre laptops which with the best compatible
> circa 2013 quad core A10 is nearly equivilant now that intel's cpu
> performance is ruined via the spectre/meltdown fixes.
>
> If you want an owner controlled performance system either you buy old
> x86 or you buy OpenPOWER - there is nothing else.
>
> x86 will never be free whereas with OpenPOWER you get an OEM[1] that
> actually listens and implements suggestions provides help with small
> system integrators like raptor (they asked for and received various
> things from ibm needed to have an entirely libre firmware including the
> hardware init process for their systems)
>
> [1]OP is one of the rare gems from IBM...it blows my mind the future of
> computing freedom is from them...I guess they did it because better
> performance alone isn't reason to switch to POWER there needed to be
> more compelling reasons and now they have one.
>
> Here's to hoping for an OpenPOWER laptop.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[taii...@gmx.com]

Everyone here knows purism stuff is blobbed right?

Their laptops have coreboot but that isn't open source firmware - the
hardware init process on their laptops is entirely blobbed (done via
FSP) and they are are being very dishonest for not stating this up front
and instead claiming to have "open source firmware"

They also claim their laptops have a disabled ME which is impossible -
even with HAP on skylake the kernel and bup hw init still run.

Trying to have freedom on modern x86 systems is being naive and beating
a dead horse at best - an incredibly dishonest scam at worst.

I expect their mobile devices to be just as non-free and dishonest when
it comes to their touted security (usb isn't modem isolation!)
considering their track record for ignoring the community and not caring
what anyone thinks.

Alternatives:
The g505s is an open cpu/ram init owner controlled ME/PSP free
alternative to the faux-libre laptops which with the best compatible
circa 2013 quad core A10 is nearly equivilant now that intel's cpu
performance is ruined via the spectre/meltdown fixes.

If you want an owner controlled performance system either you buy old
x86 or you buy OpenPOWER - there is nothing else.

x86 will never be free whereas with OpenPOWER you get an OEM[1] that
actually listens and implements suggestions provides help with small
system integrators like raptor (they asked for and received various
things from ibm needed to have an entirely libre firmware including the
hardware init process for their systems)

[1]OP is one of the rare gems from IBM...it blows my mind the future of
computing freedom is from them...I guess they did it because better
performance alone isn't reason to switch to POWER there needed to be
more compelling reasons and now they have one.

Here's to hoping for an OpenPOWER laptop.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 08:27:45 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20181031122744.clkla3eewf2bi...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:53:03PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
> > <20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:
> >   
> > > I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian,
> > > and has become contaminated with systemd.   
> > 
> > ..they blindly accepted it?
> >   
> > > So, naturally, I replaced it with Devuan.  
> > 
> > ..any response on that from puri.sm?
> >   
> > > It works very well, except for a problem with the touchpad.
> > > 
> > > I can move the mouse pointer around by stroking the touch pad and
> > > I can do the usual left-click by pressing on the touchpad.  I can
> > > do two-finger scrolling as well.
> > > 
> > > On Purism's OS though I couls get a right-click by pushing down
> > > with two fingers, and a centre-click by pushing down with three
> > > fingers. This does not work on Devuan.  To get these clicks I
> > > have resorted to a separate physical USB mouse.
> > > 
> > > Is there any way to get this right- and centre-click emulation
> > > working on Devuan?  Perhaps some missing driver or
> > > configuration?  
> > 
> > 
> > ..does this recipe work?:
> > https://www.evilcodingmonkey.com/2014/01/23/ubuntu-activate-multi-touch-on-elantech/
> >   
> 
> I'm ever cautious.
> 
> Haven't tried it yet.  Am currently trying to figure out what is does.
> It appears to obtain an Ubuntu driver for the touchpad, which a bit
> of net search suggests is from Elantech, and then replaces the
> existing driver with it.
> 
> My question is this:  How do I undo this if things go wrong?

..dude, I thought dkms was part of the apt/dpkg tool set! ;oD
aptitude install dkms and its recommends etc and _make_ it 
part of your apt/dpkg tool set! ;oD  

..I see it refuse or fail to build bad drivers all the time, but, 
I have _never_ seen it fail me, all I've ever done with bad stuff 
rejected by dkms, is remove or purge it with aptitude.  


..best way is build a .deb package of that tarball and use dpkg -i 
to install it and then restart X, (I only reboot on long power 
outages and kernel upgrades) or start a new X session on :1, don't
reboot, that way you can back out of everything killing any bad X 
and dpkg -P and reinstall whatever you threw out to try that 
tarballed pad driver, they may even have newer versions.


..I don't see any reason to try out tarballs any other way, other 
than in virtual machines.


> I'd still presumably be able to boot to a text-only console, but what
> do I do then?

..dunno, AFAICR, I have never played with dkms manually, I have always
done it thru dpkg or aptitude.  Kernel modules are easy, to remove one,
e.g. modprobe -vr psmouse, I like "v" for its verbose hints. 


..if you avoid rebooting, back up all your config files, build a .deb
package from their tarball and let dpkg/apt handle all the dkms stuff, 
you'll find your .deb installed as a "Obsolete and Locally Created
Packages" that you can purge with dpkg or apt.

..whether this restores all your current config files, depends on how
well the distro (our and Debian's) packages has been built, so you 
wanna back up your config files, first.

..if you do have to reboot, e.g. on a freeze-up, and you have experience
digging out of neck deep init=/bin/sh boot mud depth the good old unixy
ways, fix whatever is wrong, and telinit 2 to chk it works and back,
until you're done.


> -- hendrik
> 
> > 
> > ..found it here:
> > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad=web
> > 
> > ..https://duckduckgo.com/?q=PureOS+%22Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad%22=images
> > finds: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1166442
> >   
> > > I'm using ascii with LXQt.

..me too. ;o)

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 09:44:48AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Hendrik Boom - 31.10.18, 01:49:
> > On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:53:03PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message
> > > 
> > > <20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:
> > > > I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian,
> > > > and
> > > > has become contaminated with systemd.
> > > 
> > > ..they blindly accepted it?
> > 
> > Don't know how blind they were.  I suspect they had started as a
> > Debian derivative and didn't have the resources to jump ship.  Though
> > I suspect merging their changes into devuan would have been
> > feasible...
> > 
> > Now they're working on a Purism phone.  They do seem to intend it to
> > work with a variety of GNU/Linux systems.  They're currently hoping
> > to get some developers to adapt their free software to Purism's
> > mobile hardware.
> 
> AFAIR Purism also contact both the KDE and GNOME communities about 
> adapting their desktops. Maybe some developers got test machines.

I know they were selling development boards.  But a development board 
doesn't have the same ergomonic affordances as an actual mobile device.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 09:44:48 +0100, Martin wrote in message 
<8914632.p2IEeqaq0r@merkaba>:

> Hendrik Boom - 31.10.18, 01:49:
> > On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:53:03PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:  
> > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message
> > > 
> > > <20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:  
> > > > I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on
> > > > Debian, and
> > > > has become contaminated with systemd.  
> > > 
> > > ..they blindly accepted it?  
> > 
> > Don't know how blind they were.  I suspect they had started as a
> > Debian derivative and didn't have the resources to jump ship.
> > Though I suspect merging their changes into devuan would have been
> > feasible...
> > 
> > Now they're working on a Purism phone.  They do seem to intend it to
> > work with a variety of GNU/Linux systems.  They're currently hoping
> > to get some developers to adapt their free software to Purism's
> > mobile hardware.  
> 
> AFAIR Purism also contact both the KDE and GNOME communities about 
> adapting their desktops. Maybe some developers got test machines.

..they (puri.sm) would want to have a backup plan in case someone 
shuts or shoots down systemd... and wise people would want such 
wisdom in place and ready for action, before such drama happens,
sooo, we'll see what happens. ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:53:03PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
> <20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:
> 
> > I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian, and 
> > has become contaminated with systemd. 
> 
> ..they blindly accepted it?
> 
> > So, naturally, I replaced it with Devuan.
> 
> ..any response on that from puri.sm?
> 
> > It works very well, except for a problem with the touchpad.
> > 
> > I can move the mouse pointer around by stroking the touch pad and I
> > can do the usual left-click by pressing on the touchpad.  I can do 
> > two-finger scrolling as well.
> > 
> > On Purism's OS though I couls get a right-click by pushing down with 
> > two fingers, and a centre-click by pushing down with three fingers.
> > This does not work on Devuan.  To get these clicks I have resorted to 
> > a separate physical USB mouse.
> > 
> > Is there any way to get this right- and centre-click emulation working
> > on Devuan?  Perhaps some missing driver or configuration?
> 
> 
> ..does this recipe work?:
> https://www.evilcodingmonkey.com/2014/01/23/ubuntu-activate-multi-touch-on-elantech/

I'm ever cautious.

Haven't tried it yet.  Am currently trying to figure out what is does.
It appears to obtain an Ubuntu driver for the touchpad, which a bit of net 
search suggests is from Elantech, and then replaces the existing driver 
with it.

My question is this:  How do I undo this if things go wrong?  I'd still
presumably be able to boot to a text-only console, but what do I do then?

-- hendrik

> 
> ..found it here:
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad=web
> 
> ..https://duckduckgo.com/?q=PureOS+%22Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad%22=images
> finds: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1166442
> 
> > I'm using ascii with LXQt.
> > 
> > -- hendrik
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>   Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/28/18 3:14 AM, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:



I don't think you need SSH when using VNC.  I just happen to have used
it only with SSH (and RDP).



Sure. I'll test it more. Tnx!

Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hendrik Boom - 31.10.18, 01:49:
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:53:03PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message
> > 
> > <20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:
> > > I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian,
> > > and
> > > has become contaminated with systemd.
> > 
> > ..they blindly accepted it?
> 
> Don't know how blind they were.  I suspect they had started as a
> Debian derivative and didn't have the resources to jump ship.  Though
> I suspect merging their changes into devuan would have been
> feasible...
> 
> Now they're working on a Purism phone.  They do seem to intend it to
> work with a variety of GNU/Linux systems.  They're currently hoping
> to get some developers to adapt their free software to Purism's
> mobile hardware.

AFAIR Purism also contact both the KDE and GNOME communities about 
adapting their desktops. Maybe some developers got test machines.

-- 
Martin


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:53:03PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
> <20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:
> 
> > I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian, and 
> > has become contaminated with systemd. 
> 
> ..they blindly accepted it?

Don't know how blind they were.  I suspect they had started as a Debian 
derivative and didn't have the resources to jump ship.  Though I suspect 
merging their changes into devuan would have been feasible...

Now they're working on a Purism phone.  They do seem to intend it to work 
with a variety of GNU/Linux systems.  They're currently hoping to get some 
developers to adapt their free software to Purism's mobile hardware.

-- hendrik

> 
> > So, naturally, I replaced it with Devuan.
> 
> ..any response on that from puri.sm?
> 
> > It works very well, except for a problem with the touchpad.
> > 
> > I can move the mouse pointer around by stroking the touch pad and I
> > can do the usual left-click by pressing on the touchpad.  I can do 
> > two-finger scrolling as well.
> > 
> > On Purism's OS though I couls get a right-click by pushing down with 
> > two fingers, and a centre-click by pushing down with three fingers.
> > This does not work on Devuan.  To get these clicks I have resorted to 
> > a separate physical USB mouse.
> > 
> > Is there any way to get this right- and centre-click emulation working
> > on Devuan?  Perhaps some missing driver or configuration?
> 
> 
> ..does this recipe work?:
> https://www.evilcodingmonkey.com/2014/01/23/ubuntu-activate-multi-touch-on-elantech/
> 
> ..found it here:
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad=web
> 
> ..https://duckduckgo.com/?q=PureOS+%22Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad%22=images
> finds: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1166442

I'll look into this in a few days when I have time again.

> 
> > I'm using ascii with LXQt.
> > 
> > -- hendrik
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>   Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:01:03 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20181030180103.7xwhnvyqbs6zn...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian, and 
> has become contaminated with systemd. 

..they blindly accepted it?

> So, naturally, I replaced it with Devuan.

..any response on that from puri.sm?

> It works very well, except for a problem with the touchpad.
> 
> I can move the mouse pointer around by stroking the touch pad and I
> can do the usual left-click by pressing on the touchpad.  I can do 
> two-finger scrolling as well.
> 
> On Purism's OS though I couls get a right-click by pushing down with 
> two fingers, and a centre-click by pushing down with three fingers.
> This does not work on Devuan.  To get these clicks I have resorted to 
> a separate physical USB mouse.
> 
> Is there any way to get this right- and centre-click emulation working
> on Devuan?  Perhaps some missing driver or configuration?


..does this recipe work?:
https://www.evilcodingmonkey.com/2014/01/23/ubuntu-activate-multi-touch-on-elantech/

..found it here:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad=web

..https://duckduckgo.com/?q=PureOS+%22Elantech+Multitouch+Trackpad%22=images
finds: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1166442

> I'm using ascii with LXQt.
> 
> -- hendrik



-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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[DNG] Devuan on a Purism

[Hendrik Boom]

I use Devuan on a Purism laptop.  Purism's OS is based on Debian, and 
has become contaminated with systemd.  So, naturally, I replaced it 
with Devuan.

It works very well, except for a problem with the touchpad.

I can move the mouse pointer around by stroking the touch pad and I can 
do the usual left-click by pressing on the touchpad.  I can do 
two-finger scrolling as well.

On Purism's OS though I couls get a right-click by pushing down with 
two fingers, and a centre-click by pushing down with three fingers.
This does not work on Devuan.  To get these clicks I have resorted to 
a separate physical USB mouse.

Is there any way to get this right- and centre-click emulation working
on Devuan?  Perhaps some missing driver or configuration?

I'm using ascii with LXQt.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] A shift in systemd development

[golinux]

Lennart has a sense of humor?  That's a little too much of an in joke 
for me.  Went right over my head . . .


On 2018-10-29 17:10, Daniel Reurich wrote:

I'm sure that's a joke relating to Redhat being bought out by IBM
...

On 30/10/18 11:02, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

OK.  Having no idea what an S/390 system is (except for a scan of the
wikipedia page),  I'm hoping that someone can 'splain how this will
affect community based Linux and everyone who jumped on the systemd
bandwagon:

-
Lennart Poettering
‏ @pid_eins

As you all know we never have been fans of portability. It will come 
at
no surprise that in light of the recent developments we will 
discontinue

all non-S/390 ports of systemd very soon now. Please make sure to
upgrade to an S/390 system soon. Thank you for understanding.

https://twitter.com/pid_eins/status/1056924336349691905

-

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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] A shift in systemd development

[Daniel Reurich]

I'm sure that's a joke relating to Redhat being bought out by IBM
...

On 30/10/18 11:02, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> OK.  Having no idea what an S/390 system is (except for a scan of the
> wikipedia page),  I'm hoping that someone can 'splain how this will
> affect community based Linux and everyone who jumped on the systemd
> bandwagon:
> 
> -
> Lennart Poettering
> ‏ @pid_eins
> 
> As you all know we never have been fans of portability. It will come at
> no surprise that in light of the recent developments we will discontinue
> all non-S/390 ports of systemd very soon now. Please make sure to
> upgrade to an S/390 system soon. Thank you for understanding.
> 
> https://twitter.com/pid_eins/status/1056924336349691905
> 
> -
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Re: [DNG] Devuan vs. Raspbian on RPi W0 - strange things

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Sonntag, 28. Oktober 2018 schrieb Dr. Nikolaus Klepp:
> Hi all!
> 
> Today I tried to get bluetooth working on the PRiW0, which led me down a 
> different rabbithole in the lands of "devuan vs. raspbian".  First the 
> findings: 
> 
> Devuan: 
> - /dev/ttyACM0 appears always, either accessable on GPIO14/15 or via 
> something unknown (should be bt).
> - /dev/ttyS0 apperars only, when the "pi3-miniuart-bt" overlay is loaded. 
> ttyS0 is then on gpio14/15, ttyACM0 is visible but connected to someting 
> unknown (should be bt).
> - Whatever device shoud be connected to bt, it is not: htcattach always times 
> out.
> - "enable_uart=1" crashes the bootloader (not the kernel - that is not even 
> loaded at that point). In fact, anything "enable=XXX" crashes the bootloder.
> 
> Raspbian:
> - both devices work as documented by the raspbianpi foundation either on 
> gpio14/15 or bt.
> - hciattach initializes bluetooth.
> - "enable_uart=1" prevents the diappearance of "/dev/ttyS0" (which is renamed 
> to serial0 by systemd)
> 
> Both systems run the same kernel, the same firmware (updated with 
> "rpi-update" and firmware tree copied over from raspbien). 
> 
> The only differences in the system layout (apart from systemd vs. sysv) I 
> found were these: 
> - Raspbian has an extra file /boot/LICENSE.oracle
> - Raspbian FAT partition starts at block 8192, while Devuan starts at 2048. 
> But only the first block is used, all other are zero.
> 
> Running out of ideas I copied all files from the devuan root partition over 
> to the raspbian root partition and booted the system. Guess what: The boot 
> process without systemd is 10 seconds faster AND bluetooth is working! 
> 
> But this fishy: all binary files in /boot are identical (devuan/rasbian), so 
> the bootloader and kernel sould have shown the same behaviour, i.e. either 
> crash or work on both systems when "enable_uart=1". And ttyS0 and ttyAMA0 
> sould behave identical, but they don't. Why? Where's the difference that 
> matters?
> 
> And the more pressing question: As now devuan is installed over the cops of 
> raspbian, who can I figure out what files are used on startup? The bluetooth 
> init probram is definitly a resurrected part of raspbian, but what else?
> 
> 
> Nik
> 
> 
> 
> 

Forget the last questions ... I just deleted the canibalized root and 
transpanted my devuan rootfs (2. partion on image). Guss what? It boots, 
"enable_uart=1" works, I have now ttyS0 on gpio14/15 and ttyAMA0 on bluetooth 
without any overlay.

So it comes down to this: on the RPiW0, the first partitio absolutely must 
start at 8192, or bluetooth won't work. My Layout is now is this:
/dev/mmcblk0p1 8192   97889   89698 43.8M  c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
/dev/mmcblk0p298304 3872767 3774464  1.8G 83 Linux
I'm quite sure that the first partition must be exact that size and type. Most 
likely that is also true for RPi3+ (and that's why I did not get the devuan 
image running).

I think it would be a good idea to create a devuan image for rpi0 with exactly 
these changes :-)

Nik

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[DNG] Devuan vs. Raspbian on RPi W0 - strange things

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Hi all!

Today I tried to get bluetooth working on the PRiW0, which led me down a 
different rabbithole in the lands of "devuan vs. raspbian".  First the 
findings: 

Devuan: 
- /dev/ttyACM0 appears always, either accessable on GPIO14/15 or via something 
unknown (should be bt).
- /dev/ttyS0 apperars only, when the "pi3-miniuart-bt" overlay is loaded. ttyS0 
is then on gpio14/15, ttyACM0 is visible but connected to someting unknown 
(should be bt).
- Whatever device shoud be connected to bt, it is not: htcattach always times 
out.
- "enable_uart=1" crashes the bootloader (not the kernel - that is not even 
loaded at that point). In fact, anything "enable=XXX" crashes the bootloder.

Raspbian:
- both devices work as documented by the raspbianpi foundation either on 
gpio14/15 or bt.
- hciattach initializes bluetooth.
- "enable_uart=1" prevents the diappearance of "/dev/ttyS0" (which is renamed 
to serial0 by systemd)

Both systems run the same kernel, the same firmware (updated with "rpi-update" 
and firmware tree copied over from raspbien). 

The only differences in the system layout (apart from systemd vs. sysv) I found 
were these: 
- Raspbian has an extra file /boot/LICENSE.oracle
- Raspbian FAT partition starts at block 8192, while Devuan starts at 2048. But 
only the first block is used, all other are zero.

Running out of ideas I copied all files from the devuan root partition over to 
the raspbian root partition and booted the system. Guess what: The boot process 
without systemd is 10 seconds faster AND bluetooth is working! 

But this fishy: all binary files in /boot are identical (devuan/rasbian), so 
the bootloader and kernel sould have shown the same behaviour, i.e. either 
crash or work on both systems when "enable_uart=1". And ttyS0 and ttyAMA0 sould 
behave identical, but they don't. Why? Where's the difference that matters?

And the more pressing question: As now devuan is installed over the cops of 
raspbian, who can I figure out what files are used on startup? The bluetooth 
init probram is definitly a resurrected part of raspbian, but what else?


Nik




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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Miroslav,

Miroslav Skoric writes:

> On 10/23/18 1:49 PM, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
>
>>
>> For access to other Linux boxen you may have to convince their sshd to
>> do X11 forwarding (probably enabled by default) but once that's working
>> you should have no problem showing their desktop on your Devuan machine
>> using Remmina over SSH.
>
> Olaf, does Remmina needs SSH to work properly with X11? I tested Remmina
> at an Ubuntu box, without any SSH specifying (for example, just to reach
> Debian Mate desktop on another machine running x11vnc server) and it
> reported some connectivity error.

I don't think you need SSH when using VNC.  I just happen to have used
it only with SSH (and RDP).

> In another case, when I used Remote Desktop Viewer (Vinagre) instead of
> Remmina, it worked without a hitch.

I'd say use whatever works for you ;-)

Hope this helps,
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RaspberryPi W Zero segfaults

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 schrieb Gregory Nowak:
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 07:27:14PM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> > Some additional information:
> > - booting with devuan rpi1 image gives no serial console, but rpi boots (to 
> > an unknown state)
> > - adding "enable_uart=1" in config.txt and booting does not work, rpi 
> > activity led goes dark after ~ 1 sec.
> > - copying kernel+firmware+bootcode+kernelmoduels from raspbian to devuan 
> > and adding "enable_uart=1" works, kernel log is spit to uart. Userspace 
> > does not work, I cannot get a login console.
> > 
> > Oh, I have no matching hdmi cable, so I don't know what happens on tty1.
> > 
> > Any ideas?
> 
> I only have a rpi2 and rpi3 here. Having said that, when the rpi3 came
> out, raspbian made changes so that they could provide the same sd
> image for all rpi models. That means that the serial console in
> raspbian will always be on /dev/serial0, no matter which model of the
> rpi is being used. What complicates things more is that if the serial
> port is missing, systemd will happily ignore it, but agetty will keep
> exiting, causing sysvinit to keep respawning it over, and over again.
> 
> Devuan bug reports:
> https://bugs.devuan.org/db/87/87.html
> https://bugs.devuan.org/db/88/88.html
> https://bugs.devuan.org/db/89/89.html
> 
> I see that bug 89 was closed, even though 87 and 88 which are
> prerequisites for bug 89 weren't closed. I've been meaning to look into
> the status of this and other bugs, but lack of another sd card, and
> time has so far prevented me from doing so. I've since gotten a second
> sd card, but time is still very much lacking here for now.
> 
> The bottom line for you is that since the rpi0 doesn't have a built in
> bluetooth adapter, the serial port in devuan will be on
> /dev/ttyAMA0. That means you need to specify that as the serial port
> in cmdline.txt, and spin up agetty on that port in /etc/inittab.

This is where things get complicated: 
- rpi0 has no BT nor WFi (this nice device is practically unavailable) 
- rpiw0 has BT and WiFi (this is what I can buy here)
I cannot figure out which device is the correct serial to talk to, 'cause the 
devuan image - while it boots out of the box and generates ssh host keys - does 
not execute /etc/rc.local nor does it create any logfile, especially no 
/var/log/dmesg.

My plan for today is this: modify package database so that all packages 
installed are "armel" instead of "armhf". Let's see how that will go ...

Nik



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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RaspberryPi W Zero segfaults

[Gregory Nowak]

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 07:27:14PM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> Some additional information:
> - booting with devuan rpi1 image gives no serial console, but rpi boots (to 
> an unknown state)
> - adding "enable_uart=1" in config.txt and booting does not work, rpi 
> activity led goes dark after ~ 1 sec.
> - copying kernel+firmware+bootcode+kernelmoduels from raspbian to devuan and 
> adding "enable_uart=1" works, kernel log is spit to uart. Userspace does not 
> work, I cannot get a login console.
> 
> Oh, I have no matching hdmi cable, so I don't know what happens on tty1.
> 
> Any ideas?

I only have a rpi2 and rpi3 here. Having said that, when the rpi3 came
out, raspbian made changes so that they could provide the same sd
image for all rpi models. That means that the serial console in
raspbian will always be on /dev/serial0, no matter which model of the
rpi is being used. What complicates things more is that if the serial
port is missing, systemd will happily ignore it, but agetty will keep
exiting, causing sysvinit to keep respawning it over, and over again.

Devuan bug reports:
https://bugs.devuan.org/db/87/87.html
https://bugs.devuan.org/db/88/88.html
https://bugs.devuan.org/db/89/89.html

I see that bug 89 was closed, even though 87 and 88 which are
prerequisites for bug 89 weren't closed. I've been meaning to look into
the status of this and other bugs, but lack of another sd card, and
time has so far prevented me from doing so. I've since gotten a second
sd card, but time is still very much lacking here for now.

The bottom line for you is that since the rpi0 doesn't have a built in
bluetooth adapter, the serial port in devuan will be on
/dev/ttyAMA0. That means you need to specify that as the serial port
in cmdline.txt, and spin up agetty on that port in /etc/inittab.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RaspberryPi W Zero segfaults

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 schrieb Dr. Nikolaus Klepp:
> Am Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> > On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 23:55:36 +0200, Dr. wrote in message 
> > <201810252355.36418.dr.kl...@gmx.at>:
> > 
> > > Hi all!
> > > 
> > > I have a problem with Devuan on s new RPi W Zero: Raspbian (latest
> > > image) boots fine, 
> > 
> > ..does our own
> > https://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.xz
> > work for you?
> 
> It kind of works. The serial console is silent. Serial over USB with 
> "modules-load=dwc2,g_serial" does not work at all. WiFi misses firmware - so 
> does not work. I think there are suttle differences between "0/1" and "W0" 
> that are taken care of in raspbian but not in devuan. Most likely it's the 
> firmware and the kernel. I had simillar problems with RPi3+, it also needs 
> the latest firmware + kernel and des not work with the devuan rpi3 image.
>  
> > > system updates work. Then I try to get rid of
> > > systemd (replace raspbian sources with devuan sources). Installing
> > > devuan-keyring works. Installing "sysv-rc" "sysvinit-core" and
> > > "sysvinit-utils" throws several segfaults. "reboot" segfaults, too.
> > 
> > ..the Raspian people calls their BCM2835 hardware arch armhf, while 
> > we and Debian calls it armel.  Our armhf might work on RPi 2 and 3, 
> > but will fail on RPi 1 and Zero.  
> 
> Now this explains a lot - especially why the same procedure applied on RPi3+ 
> worked.
> 
> > ..you will need to add the armel arch and replace all Raspian's armhf
> > binaries with our armel binaries, and probably throw in some nefarious
> > magic, to get in working your way. 
> 
> All magic didn't work. Burned my stock of black candles, did other 
> unspeakable thing, no use (The cat suvived! Would not touch the cat!). 
> Migration from armhf to armel would work like a charm, if there was not the 
> package manager that complains about not matching version numbers in 
> armhf/armel and consequently not configuring the package. I have found no way 
> to persuade that beast to ignore that pesky package suffix when the version 
> number matches :-(
> 
> Now I try to transplant kernel+firmware from raspbian to devuan imag, let's 
> see how that turnes out. I would be happy if I git a serial console working 
> ...
> 
> Nik
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > ..devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.* works fine on my RPi1, FWIW.
> Don't doubt that. But RPiW0 has USB-OTG direct from the cpu, RPi1 has a usb 
> hub. That little difference turns out to be quite big. And the connectors 
> don't match ... *sigh* ... but I need that USB-OTG, that's the reason for 
> RPiW0 ..
>

Some additional information:
- booting with devuan rpi1 image gives no serial console, but rpi boots (to an 
unknown state)
- adding "enable_uart=1" in config.txt and booting does not work, rpi activity 
led goes dark after ~ 1 sec.
- copying kernel+firmware+bootcode+kernelmoduels from raspbian to devuan and 
adding "enable_uart=1" works, kernel log is spit to uart. Userspace does not 
work, I cannot get a login console.

Oh, I have no matching hdmi cable, so I don't know what happens on tty1.

Any ideas?


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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RaspberryPi W Zero segfaults

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 23:55:36 +0200, Dr. wrote in message 
> <201810252355.36418.dr.kl...@gmx.at>:
> 
> > Hi all!
> > 
> > I have a problem with Devuan on s new RPi W Zero: Raspbian (latest
> > image) boots fine, 
> 
> ..does our own
> https://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.xz
> work for you?

It kind of works. The serial console is silent. Serial over USB with 
"modules-load=dwc2,g_serial" does not work at all. WiFi misses firmware - so 
does not work. I think there are suttle differences between "0/1" and "W0" that 
are taken care of in raspbian but not in devuan. Most likely it's the firmware 
and the kernel. I had simillar problems with RPi3+, it also needs the latest 
firmware + kernel and des not work with the devuan rpi3 image.
 
> > system updates work. Then I try to get rid of
> > systemd (replace raspbian sources with devuan sources). Installing
> > devuan-keyring works. Installing "sysv-rc" "sysvinit-core" and
> > "sysvinit-utils" throws several segfaults. "reboot" segfaults, too.
> 
> ..the Raspian people calls their BCM2835 hardware arch armhf, while 
> we and Debian calls it armel.  Our armhf might work on RPi 2 and 3, 
> but will fail on RPi 1 and Zero.  

Now this explains a lot - especially why the same procedure applied on RPi3+ 
worked.

> ..you will need to add the armel arch and replace all Raspian's armhf
> binaries with our armel binaries, and probably throw in some nefarious
> magic, to get in working your way. 

All magic didn't work. Burned my stock of black candles, did other unspeakable 
thing, no use (The cat suvived! Would not touch the cat!). Migration from armhf 
to armel would work like a charm, if there was not the package manager that 
complains about not matching version numbers in armhf/armel and consequently 
not configuring the package. I have found no way to persuade that beast to 
ignore that pesky package suffix when the version number matches :-(

Now I try to transplant kernel+firmware from raspbian to devuan imag, let's see 
how that turnes out. I would be happy if I git a serial console working ...

Nik


> 
> 
> ..devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.* works fine on my RPi1, FWIW.
Don't doubt that. But RPiW0 has USB-OTG direct from the cpu, RPi1 has a usb 
hub. That little difference turns out to be quite big. And the connectors don't 
match ... *sigh* ... but I need that USB-OTG, that's the reason for RPiW0 ..

Nik



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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RaspberryPi W Zero segfaults

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 23:55:36 +0200, Dr. wrote in message 
<201810252355.36418.dr.kl...@gmx.at>:

> Hi all!
> 
> I have a problem with Devuan on s new RPi W Zero: Raspbian (latest
> image) boots fine, 

..does our own
https://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.xz
work for you?

> system updates work. Then I try to get rid of
> systemd (replace raspbian sources with devuan sources). Installing
> devuan-keyring works. Installing "sysv-rc" "sysvinit-core" and
> "sysvinit-utils" throws several segfaults. "reboot" segfaults, too.

..the Raspian people calls their BCM2835 hardware arch armhf, while 
we and Debian calls it armel.  Our armhf might work on RPi 2 and 3, 
but will fail on RPi 1 and Zero.  

..you will need to add the armel arch and replace all Raspian's armhf
binaries with our armel binaries, and probably throw in some nefarious
magic, to get in working your way. 


..devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.* works fine on my RPi1, FWIW.

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[DNG] Devuan on RaspberryPi W Zero segfaults

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Hi all!

I have a problem with Devuan on s new RPi W Zero: Raspbian (latest image) boots 
fine, system updates work. Then I try to get rid of systemd (replace raspbian 
sources with devuan sources). Installing devuan-keyring works. Installing 
"sysv-rc" "sysvinit-core" and "sysvinit-utils" throws several segfaults. 
"reboot" segfaults, too. After a forced reset "/sbin/init" segfaults when the 
kernel tries to execute it:

[3.225592] devtmpfs: mounted
[3.232735] Freeing unused kernel memory: 440K
[3.239072] This architecture does not have kernel memory protection.
[3.497781] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! 
exitcode=0x000b
[3.497781] 
[3.512460] CPU: 0 PID: 1 Comm: init Not tainted 4.14.78+ #1156
[3.520308] Hardware name: BCM2835
[3.525637] [] (unwind_backtrace) from [] 
(show_stack+0x20/0x24)
[3.537152] [] (show_stack) from [] 
(dump_stack+0x20/0x28)
[3.546416] [] (dump_stack) from [] (panic+0xcc/0x250)
[3.555304] [] (panic) from [] (do_exit+0xa30/0xa68)
[3.564042] [] (do_exit) from [] 
(do_group_exit+0x4c/0xbc)
[3.573300] [] (do_group_exit) from [] 
(get_signal+0x230/0x5dc)
[3.584791] [] (get_signal) from [] 
(do_signal+0xc8/0x3f8)
[3.594106] [] (do_signal) from [] 
(do_work_pending+0xcc/0xe4)
[3.605584] [] (do_work_pending) from [] 
(slow_work_pending+0xc/0x20)
[3.617712] ---[ end Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! 
exitcode=0x000b

I made the system bootable again (add init=/bin/systemd ... brrr) and tried a 
dist-upgrade. That failed when uncompressing "bash" segfaults.

Anything I can do about that? 




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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 14:51:48 +0200, Miroslav wrote in message 
:

> On 10/23/18 1:45 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I
> >> have to keep them that way  
> > 
> > ..easy now, if these has lawful copies of Wintendo installed, you
> > _can_ keep them that way.  Now if these are the pirated ones you
> > spoke about, any judge worth his salt will tell you you can _not_
> > keep them that way, and clarify that wrath of law in your verdict.
> > 
> > ..which is why I'm happy to see these 2 boxes came to the club and
> > not to you, and that a judge might believe how hard it is to get
> > the club membership to understand why they need to comply to the
> > license terms under your laws.
> >   
> 
> Arnt, I am not a Wintendo lawyer, so I do not care. Those boxes are
> not mine, and it's just my good will to introduce the elders with
> Linux. Btw, it might be that at least one box came with legal
> Wintendo because it shows HP sign and its system utils after booting
> in Wintendo, and the hardware is HP too, so it was probably OEM
> pre-installed. The other one was donated from the police junk-yard,
> and I remember that big Wintendo boss himself visited Serbia 20 years
> ago to apparently donate licenses for the ministries. In any case,
> neither the judges here would care much about the laws. It's Serbia,
> freedom for all and everything :-)
> 
> Misko

..wonderful, land of the free. ;oD 
Me, I only care about our own asses under the GPL. :o)

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  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/23/18 1:49 PM, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:



For access to other Linux boxen you may have to convince their sshd to
do X11 forwarding (probably enabled by default) but once that's working
you should have no problem showing their desktop on your Devuan machine
using Remmina over SSH.



Olaf, does Remmina needs SSH to work properly with X11? I tested Remmina 
at an Ubuntu box, without any SSH specifying (for example, just to reach 
Debian Mate desktop on another machine running x11vnc server) and it 
reported some connectivity error.


In another case, when I used Remote Desktop Viewer (Vinagre) instead of 
Remmina, it worked without a hitch.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/23/18 1:45 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:



Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I
have to keep them that way


..easy now, if these has lawful copies of Wintendo installed, you
_can_ keep them that way.  Now if these are the pirated ones you
spoke about, any judge worth his salt will tell you you can _not_
keep them that way, and clarify that wrath of law in your verdict.

..which is why I'm happy to see these 2 boxes came to the club and
not to you, and that a judge might believe how hard it is to get
the club membership to understand why they need to comply to the
license terms under your laws.



Arnt, I am not a Wintendo lawyer, so I do not care. Those boxes are not 
mine, and it's just my good will to introduce the elders with Linux. 
Btw, it might be that at least one box came with legal Wintendo because 
it shows HP sign and its system utils after booting in Wintendo, and the 
hardware is HP too, so it was probably OEM pre-installed. The other one 
was donated from the police junk-yard, and I remember that big Wintendo 
boss himself visited Serbia 20 years ago to apparently donate licenses 
for the ministries. In any case, neither the judges here would care much 
about the laws. It's Serbia, freedom for all and everything :-)


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 23:10:35 +0200, Miroslav wrote in message 
<4149ab4f-76e2-f4e5-af96-38bd433dd...@uns.ac.rs>:

> On 10/20/2018 04:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less
> >> fluent in (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the
> >> Net, email, and office. So my point is to show them that there are
> >> free & unrestricted alternatives. As I said I have two machines
> >> there, one is wired to a big TV so they who sit in a last row can
> >> listen & watch. That one machine is Devuan Jessie 64-bit for now,
> >> I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan distro before.
> >> However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show them
> >> its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
> >> machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to
> >> run Devuan as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second
> >> option.  
> > 
> > Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu?
> > Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux!
> >   
> 
> Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I
> have to keep them that way 

..easy now, if these has lawful copies of Wintendo installed, you 
_can_ keep them that way.  Now if these are the pirated ones you 
spoke about, any judge worth his salt will tell you you can _not_ 
keep them that way, and clarify that wrath of law in your verdict. 

..which is why I'm happy to see these 2 boxes came to the club and 
not to you, and that a judge might believe how hard it is to get 
the club membership to understand why they need to comply to the 
license terms under your laws.

> (partially) until the club members clearly
> show they want to learn something else than that. And the boxes'
> features are insufficient for a triple-boot endeavours. Important is
> also to show the audience that they always can reboot into their
> 'favourite' environment.
> 
> Misko


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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Arnt Karlsen writes:

> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:05:55 +1100, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote in
> message <6ec111c6-d733-4e15-a944-e2419b63c...@gmail.com>:
>
>> >
>> > For Ubuntu there is Remina or like (if I recall the proper name)
>> > but duno what needs for Devuan.
>> >
>> > Misko
>>
>> Remains is also available from ascii-backports.
>
> ..you mean remmina?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmina
> https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=remmina
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch-backports/remmina/remmina.1.en.html

FYI, I use remmina occasionally on Devuan Ascii machines running the
default Xfce desktop.  Accessing a Windows VM over RDP at the office
works without a hitch.

For access to other Linux boxen you may have to convince their sshd to
do X11 forwarding (probably enabled by default) but once that's working
you should have no problem showing their desktop on your Devuan machine
using Remmina over SSH.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:10:35PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 10/20/2018 04:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent 
> > > in
> > > (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and
> > > office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted
> > > alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big 
> > > TV
> > > so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. That one machine is 
> > > Devuan
> > > Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan
> > > distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show
> > > them its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
> > > machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run 
> > > Devuan
> > > as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option.
> > 
> > Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu?
> > Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux!
> > 
> 
> Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I have to
> keep them that way (partially) until the club members clearly show they want
> to learn something else than that. And the boxes' features are insufficient
> for a triple-boot endeavours. Important is also to show the audience that
> they always can reboot into their 'favourite' environment.

Yeah.  If triple-boot isn't in the cards, you can't instal both.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:01:01PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 10/20/2018 02:42 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ..http://www.pclinuxos.com/ has a reputation for being the easiest
> > distro for your kinda newbie users.  But  it is not Devuan. ;o)
> > 
> > ..https://www.qubes-os.org/ is also not Devuan, but an excellent way
> > to set up Devuan safely and securely in, er, these times.
> > 
> 
> Naah ... is this Devuan or anti-Devuan list? Of course I'll reinstall into
> Ubuntu or Debian (or whatever I used in the past) if Devuan does not perform
> what I asked for :-)

This is a list for people who like Devuan.  That said, we realise that 
Devuan may not be everyone's first choice.  We would like people who 
don't want Devuan to find a system that does appeal to them; therefore 
we're OK with referring them elsewhere.

But we are of course happy to welcome those to whom Devuan does 
appeal.

There are already Devuan derivatives.  Even a Devuan lover may have 
cause to one of those instead.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/22/2018 02:38 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:



Err, how old do you think the people who developed the "Internet" are?
Don't assume they don't have capable minds. We live in a world they
built.


I'm 72.  Still capable mentally, though I need a cane to walk long distances.
Don't need a cane to compute.



Hendrik, you're the lucky one. But as most of us here you are the Linux 
'geek'. My audience is mostly retired cops. Retired 20-25 years ago. 
They only 'invented' a cane. And now I need a cane to show them power-on 
buttons ;-)


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/22/2018 02:36 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:


alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV
so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch.


What is the other one wired to?  A local small display?



Both of them have their own small displays, and the faster box (Devuan) 
is also attached to a big TV for presentations. The presentation room is 
kinda small theatre and the audience tend to sit far away in the last 
rows. (So they can easily smoke & drink while I talk.) And apart of my 
presentations everybody can sit in a front of local display, no problem 
with that.





But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan
as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option.


No need for a second machine!  No need for them to communicate over a cable!
You can have some of the seniors tinkering on one machine while you tinker on
the other!



It's complicated at this stage for total beginners in Linux. That's not 
my point. As I said, I already have two machines, each as dual-boot, 
wired in between, each having its own display, printer, etc. So it's 
just a proper software package issue.


PS: I have already made some tests with remote desktops in my home LAN 
(mixed Debian and Ubuntu machines, also in dual-boot combinations). And 
I only had to add x11vnc server packages to them, and used clients I 
already had on those machines ("Vinagre is a remote desktop viewer for 
the GNOME desktop"), and it works! So I planned to do the same with 
Devuan. Nothing else than that.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/20/2018 04:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:



It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent in
(pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and
office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted
alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV
so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. That one machine is Devuan
Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan
distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show
them its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan
as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option.


Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu?
Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux!



Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I have 
to keep them that way (partially) until the club members clearly show 
they want to learn something else than that. And the boxes' features are 
insufficient for a triple-boot endeavours. Important is also to show the 
audience that they always can reboot into their 'favourite' environment.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/20/2018 02:42 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:



..http://www.pclinuxos.com/ has a reputation for being the easiest
distro for your kinda newbie users.  But  it is not Devuan. ;o)

..https://www.qubes-os.org/ is also not Devuan, but an excellent way
to set up Devuan safely and securely in, er, these times.



Naah ... is this Devuan or anti-Devuan list? Of course I'll reinstall 
into Ubuntu or Debian (or whatever I used in the past) if Devuan does 
not perform what I asked for :-)




.._play_around_until_ you have a setup you're confident enough to
tease your users into using.  Your users has lived thru pretty bad
times and _understand_ their need for _RL_ privacy, and will easily
accept they need online privacy too, a fact you will find is handy
when you are ready to scare them off their pirated Wintendos. ;o)



Sure. I had downloaded a Devuan installation on a DVD and installed one 
of those comps. One of my points is to check it for differences against 
Debian and/or Ubuntu, so if it proves as failed it's not a big deal for 
me to reinstall into one of those mentioned :-)


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 01:39:41PM +1100, terryc wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:07:19 +0200
> Miroslav Skoric  wrote:
> > 
> > It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average.
> 
> Err, how old do you think the people who developed the "Internet" are?
> Don't assume they don't have capable minds. We live in a world they
> built.

I'm 72.  Still capable mentally, though I need a cane to walk long distances.  
Don't need a cane to compute. 

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 01:07:19PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 10/17/2018 03:18 PM, terryc wrote:
> 
> > > Machines can
> > > ping each other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to
> > > introduce Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or
> > > like. Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to
> > > those boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded
> > > elsewhere and brought on USB or CD.

Of course you could just use a live CD and boot from that and skip the 
installation step.  Unless the speed disadvantage is a problem.

> > Burn the basic DVD and do the installation from it and if you have
> > it on hand, you can show how easily the computer can acquire other
> > applications by;
> > 0) open a terminal
> > b) aptitude search some application (or hint utility).
> > c)sudo aptitude install chosen-utility.

Won't be able to do this without an internet connection.  Unless your 
/etc/apt/sources.list includes a suitable devuan repository mounted locally.

> > d) utility.
> 
> It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent in
> (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and
> office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted
> alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV
> so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch.

What is the other one wired to?  A local small display?

> That one machine is Devuan
> Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan
> distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show
> them its desktop too.

You should try your Ubuntu desktop on your Devuan Jessie.  Chances are it's 
available on Jessie as well as on Ubuntu and then you won't have to carry two 
OS's around.  Simplify your life!

Just another apt-get install into Jessie.

You'll just have to log out, choose a different window manager or desktop and 
log in again.

Show off nother of Linux's capabilities!

Except:
* Some window managers even allow you to switch to another window manager 
without logging out.
* There might be some problems with gnome because it is somewhat wedded to 
systemd.

> But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
> machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan
> as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option.

No need for a second machine!  No need for them to communicate over a cable!  
You can have some of the seniors tinkering on one machine while you tinker on 
the other!

> Both machines
> are pretty old. Devuan box is somewhat faster but also old so that's why it
> is wired to the TV as the primary sample for Linux introduction. At this
> stage I do not want the elders to play with keyboards just like that, but to
> relax sitting in the room and watch the presentations. Installing software
> in terminal or like is not an option for the audience, it would be too much
> for them to understand, they are not Linux geeks. As well it is playing VM,
> at least until they learn the basics. Btw, those comps are dual-boot with
> Window$ because they are also used for other things besides Linux promotion.
> There is no Internet in the club so I need exactly what software packages
> need to be downloaded elsewhere and brought to the site. For Ubuntu there is
> Remina or like (if I recall the proper name) but duno what needs for Devuan.
> 
> Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[terryc]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:07:19 +0200
Miroslav Skoric  wrote:

> On 10/17/2018 03:18 PM, terryc wrote:

I'm going to start off by saying I'm unable to help you with your
quest. In fact, my answers are basically like the local who is asked by
a tourist "How do you get to blah-blah from here" and receives the
reply "If i was yuou, I wouldn't get to there from here".

However, I realise my comments are based on my experiences in two PC
clubs and two LUGs over a few decades when the interest was fresh and
new and the environment is different now. 

However, than you for your interest in promoting Devuan.

> 
> It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average.

Err, how old do you think the people who developed the "Internet" are?
Don't assume they don't have capable minds. We live in a world they
built.

The follow up I didn't send is to suggest using one or two "Live-CDs",
which would allow them to dabble with minimum risk. As far as I know,
just about most Linux distros allow you to choose your desktop and many
off Live-CDs with various look and feel.

I don't think I can help you with the rest of your questions as I
learnt long ago to keep it simple and easy, but wish you good luck.

> As I said I have two machines there, one
> is wired to a big TV so they who sit in a last row can listen &
> watch.

Any chance of a second screen in mirror mode so you can sit and face
the audience while you talk? It will flow smoother? 

>That one machine is Devuan Jessie 64-bit for now, 
Oh, it is modern.

> I installed
> it just for test as I never used Devuan distro before. However, I am
> more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show them its desktop too.

As I said, which desktop? I trained my user-in-chief to
right click the blue screen, choose applications and so on. As far as I
know, all desktops will allow you to set up icons.

I just have better things to do than spend my time fixing muck ups from 
upgrades and
dealing with "the internet is down" when firefox has just shat itself
again and just needs a restart. And if they refuse to learn to walk the
tree, then they can wait while i have a second cuppa to find their lost
file.

Just do a simple light show (KISS) and work with the more
capable/interested and enable them to be teach the rest. 

>Btw, those comps are dual-boot with Window$
> because they are also used for other things besides Linux promotion.

It seriously sounds as if your club should do some skip
diving/recycling/repurposing.
 
> There is no Internet in the club so I need exactly what software
> packages need to be downloaded elsewhere and brought to the site.

Do your resources extend to downloading/obtaining distribution CDs/DVDs
isos and burning a copy or 2, 3, ? . That was basically how I did
it in the past(when the alternative was dial-up modem downloads). The
alternative is to download the needed packages onto usb stick and carry
out a foreign media install.

My whole approach would be to just to boot off a live-cd, say this is
"Linux" and under that I can do this "(show)]repeat n and try include
stuff they are interested/need in and pump;
minimal virus/worm/etc chance, 
"free",
"better",
choice and so on.
Questions, Questions, Question.
If they get hung up on look and feel, boot on another live-cd.

Good luck.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[wirelessduck]

> ..you mean remmina?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmina
> https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=remmina
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch-backports/remmina/remmina.1.en.html

Sorry, yes. I blame autocorrect for that mistake.

—Tom
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 01:14:25PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 10/17/2018 09:10 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > 
> > You may end up with network delays for systems that are designed with
> > the speed of a local video display in mind.
> > 
> 
> Well I am not in a hurry. I would make a try in any case before the public
> demo, so if it does not work in acceptable way, I would try some other
> option.

Right!  Because that which is not tested is broken.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 01:07:19PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 10/17/2018 03:18 PM, terryc wrote:
> 
> > > Machines can
> > > ping each other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to
> > > introduce Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or
> > > like. Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to
> > > those boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded
> > > elsewhere and brought on USB or CD.
> > Burn the basic DVD and do the installation from it and if you have
> > it on hand, you can show how easily the computer can acquire other
> > applications by;
> > 0) open a terminal
> > b) aptitude search some application (or hint utility).
> > c)sudo aptitude install chosen-utility.
> > d) utility.
> 
> It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent in
> (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and
> office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted
> alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV
> so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. That one machine is Devuan
> Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan
> distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show
> them its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
> machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan
> as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option.

Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu?
Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux!

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:05:55 +1100, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote in
message <6ec111c6-d733-4e15-a944-e2419b63c...@gmail.com>:

> > 
> > For Ubuntu there is Remina or like (if I recall the proper name)
> > but duno what needs for Devuan.
> > 
> > Misko  
> 
> Remains is also available from ascii-backports.

..you mean remmina?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmina
https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=remmina
https://manpages.debian.org/stretch-backports/remmina/remmina.1.en.html

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[wirelessduck]

> 
> For Ubuntu there is Remina or like (if I recall the proper name) but duno 
> what needs for Devuan.
> 
> Misko

Remains is also available from ascii-backports.

—Tom
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:07:19 +0200, Miroslav wrote in message 
<0a50e90e-0f7c-77c1-63f8-ce05b748f...@uns.ac.rs>:

> On 10/17/2018 03:18 PM, terryc wrote:
> 
> >> Machines can
> >> ping each other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to
> >> introduce Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or
> >> like. Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to
> >> those boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded
> >> elsewhere and brought on USB or CD.  
> > Burn the basic DVD and do the installation from it and if you have
> > it on hand, you can show how easily the computer can acquire other
> > applications by;
> > 0) open a terminal
> > b) aptitude search some application (or hint utility).
> > c)sudo aptitude install chosen-utility.
> > d) utility.
> > 
> 
> It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less
> fluent in (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net,
> email, and office. So my point is to show them that there are free &
> unrestricted alternatives.

..http://www.pclinuxos.com/ has a reputation for being the easiest
distro for your kinda newbie users.  But  it is not Devuan. ;o)

..https://www.qubes-os.org/ is also not Devuan, but an excellent way 
to set up Devuan safely and securely in, er, these times.

..http://www.pclinuxos.com/ style gui is probably a good way to start 
set up Devuan for your clientele.  
And probably a lot more work on your ass to get done.
And I'd argue it's worth doing.

> As I said I have two machines there, one
> is wired to a big TV so they who sit in a last row can listen &
> watch. That one machine is Devuan Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed
> it just for test as I never used Devuan distro before. However, I am
> more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show them its desktop too.
> But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each machine from the TV
> to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan as a 'proxy'
> for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option. Both machines are
> pretty old. Devuan box is somewhat faster but also old so that's why
> it is wired to the TV as the primary sample for Linux introduction.
> At this stage I do not want the elders to play with keyboards just
> like that, but to relax sitting in the room and watch the
> presentations. Installing software in terminal or like is not an
> option for the audience, it would be too much for them to understand,
> they are not Linux geeks. As well it is playing VM, at least until
> they learn the basics. Btw, those comps are dual-boot with Window$
> because they are also used for other things besides Linux promotion.
> There is no Internet in the club so I need exactly what software
> packages need to be downloaded elsewhere and brought to the site. For
> Ubuntu there is Remina or like (if I recall the proper name) but duno
> what needs for Devuan.
> 
> Misko

.._play_around_until_ you have a setup you're confident enough to 
tease your users into using.  Your users has lived thru pretty bad
times and _understand_ their need for _RL_ privacy, and will easily
accept they need online privacy too, a fact you will find is handy 
when you are ready to scare them off their pirated Wintendos. ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/17/2018 10:16 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:


For Linux stuff I've become somewhat fond of X2go



Will check it. Tnx.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/17/2018 09:10 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:



You may end up with network delays for systems that are designed with
the speed of a local video display in mind.



Well I am not in a hurry. I would make a try in any case before the 
public demo, so if it does not work in acceptable way, I would try some 
other option.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/17/2018 05:14 PM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:



The easiest way would be to make a connection with ssh  -X or -Y which
enables X-forwarding. You then can start a individual X program from the
commandline but also the complete WM. Perfectly showing how capable
linux is in use. For more extended capabilities you could install x2go
server and client which will also make possible to have more then one
remote desktop.



Nick, et al.

ssh might be too complicated for my audience. They are not fond of CLI & 
terminals. I need something that can be chosen from the pull-down menu, 
and activated by mouse click to reach the other desktop's GUI (if possible)


Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/17/2018 03:18 PM, terryc wrote:


Machines can
ping each other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to
introduce Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or
like. Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to
those boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded
elsewhere and brought on USB or CD.

Burn the basic DVD and do the installation from it and if you have
it on hand, you can show how easily the computer can acquire other
applications by;
0) open a terminal
b) aptitude search some application (or hint utility).
c)sudo aptitude install chosen-utility.
d) utility.
  


It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent 
in (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and 
office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted 
alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big 
TV so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. That one machine is 
Devuan Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never 
used Devuan distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so 
I want to show them its desktop too. But the idea is not to 
disconnect/reconnect each machine from the TV to switch different 
distro, instead I want to run Devuan as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear 
on TV as a second option. Both machines are pretty old. Devuan box is 
somewhat faster but also old so that's why it is wired to the TV as the 
primary sample for Linux introduction. At this stage I do not want the 
elders to play with keyboards just like that, but to relax sitting in 
the room and watch the presentations. Installing software in terminal or 
like is not an option for the audience, it would be too much for them to 
understand, they are not Linux geeks. As well it is playing VM, at least 
until they learn the basics. Btw, those comps are dual-boot with Window$ 
because they are also used for other things besides Linux promotion. 
There is no Internet in the club so I need exactly what software 
packages need to be downloaded elsewhere and brought to the site. For 
Ubuntu there is Remina or like (if I recall the proper name) but duno 
what needs for Devuan.


Misko
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

> "Multi-seat" makes little sense now that when you add a user you can give him 
> or her a $400 computer with which he can share the server's data.

I would beg to disagree - at least for some workloads. I think "it depends" is 
often teh answer to the question of "is multi-seat of any use ?"

For your typical "office stuff" - WP, Email, etc - then I;d agree, a desktop PC 
with shared access to the file server is great.
But back a couple of jobs ...
We ran a Unix system (SCO OpenServer before SCO hit the self destruct button) 
with a large number of users. The primary tool used by most users was a single 
application which did all the sales, purchasing, stock control etc, etc. Mostly 
these were Wyse60 terminals - partly for historical reasons, the previous 
system was hard-coded for a Wyse 60. Running serial at 9600bps was quite 
adequate to give a good response time and almost all* the time this worked fine 
with anything up to 100 users on a Pentium with 16G RAM.
In terms of data, it would make zero sense to have remote processing sharing 
the data off the server - the sales order detail (line items on sales orders) 
DB file would exceed 1G without any trouble. Since most of the work is database 
transactions, there is no sane alternative to a central DB server doing all the 
DB stuff. So even if you go to PCs on every desktop, you are still down to the 
client being an "intelligent display".
As it happens, a later version of the program did have a native Windows client 
- which was basically a Window-ised version of the text interface. As it was, 
many users were migrating to Windows PCs using a terminal network over ethernet 
for the main system, and the usual sort of "office stuff" they got Windows for.

But back to the clients we used, there is absolutely nothing as simple to 
manage on the factory floor tan a "green screen" terminal. It's really hard for 
the hammer fingered users to mess them up - and if they do, then it's generally 
nothing more than swapping out the broken one for a good one with zero config 
needed. Once you go to something more complicated, then the management costs go 
up - regardless of what system you use, there is more work in either manually 
configuring systems or setting up an automated system to do it.

Oh yes, and did I mention that we ran across multiple sites ? For a while we 
ran about 10 users across a 19.2k leased line - that got upgraded to 64k when 
one of the serial muxes died and we upgraded to IP networking and terminal 
servers.


* I said "almost all" the time. Any of you familiar with SCO OpenServer 5 will 
know that it has a link time configured disk buffer size, with a maximum size 
of 640,000kbytes - and yes, the system failed to boot if set to 640,001 kbytes. 
And note what I said about one single db file getting to over 1G, some of you 
will be ahead of me and know what's coming. The reporting tool that came with 
the package had an "interesting" feature in that it would suddenly stop using 
indexes for joins - you'd be developing a report and all would run fine, then a 
minor change and performance drops faster than a lead balloon. Non-indexed 
joins with files well over 1G and only 640M of disk cache - yup the system 
slows to a crawl with 99 to 100% wio and a long disk queue. We;d know if 
someone ran this particular report during the working day when the phones rang 
to say the system was frozen - everyone got stuck waiting for disk i/o. That 
was with fast (for their day) wide SCSI drives, arrayed across busses for 
maximum performance.
In the end, it got to be run over the weekend and took 40 hours. At some point 
I re-wrote it in Informix SQL, taking care over use of indexes, and we could 
run it at any time without upsetting users and get the results in under 2 
minutes.

I was looking forward to us upgrading as a later version could run on Linux - 
and thus make use of more memory, would have been lovely to keep the DB in 
cache. It didn't happen while I was there, there was a bit of a business 
downturn and I was one of the ones that paid off.


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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Daniel Abrecht]

On 19/10/2018 15.04, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

OTOH, we could (as mentioned in another thread) invent some small
declarative config file format for expressing at least the very
common cases


There already is init-d-script (5). 
https://www.commandlinux.com/man-page/man5/init-d-script.5.html


Before I knew about this, i wrote unitscript: 
https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/unitscript
But unitscript still lacks a lot of features and testing, and I don't 
really have time for this at the moment. It also isn't a debian or 
devuan packet yet, so using init-d-script is probably preferable.



Regards,
Daniel Abrecht
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 17.10.2018 15:14, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Why doesn't Devuan edit sysvinit to use systemd's unit files instead
> of scripts? That would bypass the entire problem. 

That would be a *very complex* task - basically reimplementing much
of systemd logic. Nothing that I could aggree to support.

OTOH, we could (as mentioned in another thread) invent some small
declarative config file format for expressing at least the very
common cases, and use that for generating classic init scripts as
well as systemd unit files. Perhaps configs for various supervisors
could be generated from that too.

This approach could actually benefit the upstreams, as they now can
just declare what their services need, w/o ever having to care about
all the distro-specific issues.

Of course, this can only cope certain classes of services, and it
really needs to be specified very precisely. (maybe even have distinct
service types "x", "y", "z", etc).

By the way: much of the stuff I see in the more complex init scripts
could be moved out to external helpers, so the actual init scripts would
be pretty trivial.


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2018 schrieb Steve Litt:
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:50:39 +1100
> Erik Christiansen  wrote:
> 
> > On 18.10.18 11:37, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > OK. Next question. What is the cost difference between a computer
> > > terminal and a low power computer with the muscle to run apps whose
> > > data is on the central server?  
> > 
> > The price of hardware was entirely different back then, making re-use
> > much more compelling cost-wise. But the grunt wasn't there in my
> > experience. To go with an HP64000 microprocessor development system,
> > back in the 80s, I bought a small server with a (for then) big disk,
> > and four green terminals IIRC. The whitepaper extolling its virtues
> > claimed it'd be just spiffy for 4 users, with graphs, tables, and
> > pages of text to "prove" it. But in practice the 68040 CPU only
> > sufficed for editing. Once the team hit it with concurrent compiles,
> > it died in the derriere. From then on, I was a convert to distributed
> > processing, and sprinkled sparcstations about instead. (OK, LAN was
> > over co-ax back then, and an unaware user could bring that down just
> > by knocking the 50 ohm termination off the T-connector on the back of
> > his machine, if it was the last on the run. Much easier to find if
> > you'd run the cable, than if you had to hunt for it.)
> > 
> > > If one uses terminals, how many users can a high power computer
> > > handle? 50? 100? On the other hand, if every user contributes
> > > enough CPU to run the apps, it could be thousands.  
> > 
> > With CPU, RAM, and HD costing only beans now, we can can now give each
> > user what was then a supercomputer, for what they paid for a terminal.
> > Apart from the increased performance, even with what we had back then,
> > the fault tolerance inherent in distributed computing didn't escape my
> > notice, given responsibility for meeting project deadlines.
> > 
> > Another team did go for a humungous refrigerator-sized quad-cpu HP
> > compute server with 50 hard drives in a second refrigerator-sized
> > enclosure, but I stayed distributed. (The quad-cpu mobo was nearly a
> > yard square.)
> > 
> > Erik
> 
> Thanks Erik,
> 
> You beautifully said what I was trying to. "Multi-seat" makes little
> sense now that when you add a user you can give him or her a $400
> computer with which he can share the server's data. I'm of the opinion
> that "multi-seat" isn't a benefit, it isn't a feature, it's just a
> marketing gimmick not a whole lot different than a magnesium paddle
> shifter in a car.
> 
> And to refresh memories of context earlier in this thread, "multi-seat"
> is one of the many systemd features that I opined did not need to be
> reproduced by the Debian project, or anyone else.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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> 

Multi-seat was a big thing ~ 20-30 years ago. I once built an internet caffee 
with that stuff from donated hardware, but it was put to a rest a year later. 
As were the X11-terminals, as which virtually all old computers from physics 
department ended. Technology from the past, gone with the wind. Same happened 
to "Thin clients" - which does not hinder some high$$ companies to still sell 
that stuff (windows terminal server, anyone?) - a RPi3 has more power for 
almost everything for a fraction of the cost. And then there is the tale of 
"Africa and the 3rd world", where all donated computers end some day ... well, 
dream on "multi-seat".

Just my 2¢

Nik

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the NSA, CIA ...
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:50:39 +1100
Erik Christiansen  wrote:

> On 18.10.18 11:37, Steve Litt wrote:
> > OK. Next question. What is the cost difference between a computer
> > terminal and a low power computer with the muscle to run apps whose
> > data is on the central server?  
> 
> The price of hardware was entirely different back then, making re-use
> much more compelling cost-wise. But the grunt wasn't there in my
> experience. To go with an HP64000 microprocessor development system,
> back in the 80s, I bought a small server with a (for then) big disk,
> and four green terminals IIRC. The whitepaper extolling its virtues
> claimed it'd be just spiffy for 4 users, with graphs, tables, and
> pages of text to "prove" it. But in practice the 68040 CPU only
> sufficed for editing. Once the team hit it with concurrent compiles,
> it died in the derriere. From then on, I was a convert to distributed
> processing, and sprinkled sparcstations about instead. (OK, LAN was
> over co-ax back then, and an unaware user could bring that down just
> by knocking the 50 ohm termination off the T-connector on the back of
> his machine, if it was the last on the run. Much easier to find if
> you'd run the cable, than if you had to hunt for it.)
> 
> > If one uses terminals, how many users can a high power computer
> > handle? 50? 100? On the other hand, if every user contributes
> > enough CPU to run the apps, it could be thousands.  
> 
> With CPU, RAM, and HD costing only beans now, we can can now give each
> user what was then a supercomputer, for what they paid for a terminal.
> Apart from the increased performance, even with what we had back then,
> the fault tolerance inherent in distributed computing didn't escape my
> notice, given responsibility for meeting project deadlines.
> 
> Another team did go for a humungous refrigerator-sized quad-cpu HP
> compute server with 50 hard drives in a second refrigerator-sized
> enclosure, but I stayed distributed. (The quad-cpu mobo was nearly a
> yard square.)
> 
> Erik

Thanks Erik,

You beautifully said what I was trying to. "Multi-seat" makes little
sense now that when you add a user you can give him or her a $400
computer with which he can share the server's data. I'm of the opinion
that "multi-seat" isn't a benefit, it isn't a feature, it's just a
marketing gimmick not a whole lot different than a magnesium paddle
shifter in a car.

And to refresh memories of context earlier in this thread, "multi-seat"
is one of the many systemd features that I opined did not need to be
reproduced by the Debian project, or anyone else.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Erik Christiansen]

On 18.10.18 11:37, Steve Litt wrote:
> OK. Next question. What is the cost difference between a computer
> terminal and a low power computer with the muscle to run apps whose
> data is on the central server?

The price of hardware was entirely different back then, making re-use
much more compelling cost-wise. But the grunt wasn't there in my
experience. To go with an HP64000 microprocessor development system,
back in the 80s, I bought a small server with a (for then) big disk, and
four green terminals IIRC. The whitepaper extolling its virtues claimed
it'd be just spiffy for 4 users, with graphs, tables, and pages of text
to "prove" it. But in practice the 68040 CPU only sufficed for editing.
Once the team hit it with concurrent compiles, it died in the derriere.
From then on, I was a convert to distributed processing, and sprinkled
sparcstations about instead. (OK, LAN was over co-ax back then, and an
unaware user could bring that down just by knocking the 50 ohm
termination off the T-connector on the back of his machine, if it was
the last on the run. Much easier to find if you'd run the cable, than if
you had to hunt for it.)

> If one uses terminals, how many users can a high power computer handle?
> 50? 100? On the other hand, if every user contributes enough CPU to run
> the apps, it could be thousands.

With CPU, RAM, and HD costing only beans now, we can can now give each
user what was then a supercomputer, for what they paid for a terminal.
Apart from the increased performance, even with what we had back then,
the fault tolerance inherent in distributed computing didn't escape my
notice, given responsibility for meeting project deadlines.

Another team did go for a humungous refrigerator-sized quad-cpu HP
compute server with 50 hard drives in a second refrigerator-sized
enclosure, but I stayed distributed. (The quad-cpu mobo was nearly a
yard square.)

Erik
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:37:13AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:50:51 -0400
> Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:17:13AM -0300, Fernando M. Maresca wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:20:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > > 
> > > > Multiseating? When's the last time you had serial cables to
> > > > monitors? We have much more efficient Gigabit Eternet.  
> > 
> > Over serial lines?  1979.  With text-only terminals.  I think it may 
> > have been on Unix version 3 or so.  
> > 
> > The last time I used what I perceived as multiseating it was done
> > over 10-megabit Ethernet.  Worked fine.
> 
> OK. Next question. What is the cost difference between a computer
> terminal and a low power computer with the muscle to run apps whose
> data is on the central server?

Terminal:
Portable: HP mt21: $449
Stationary: HP t430: $261, needs keyboard+mouse+monitor

Low power computer:
Portable: Pinebook: $89
Stationary: many, $25ish for good enough, needs keyboard+mouse+monitor

("Good enough" turns out to be mostly about memory; 2GB runs a bloated
browser fine if you unlearn your tab habits; anything else like LibreOffice
or such doesn't need as much oomph.)

Obviously, an actual computer can also run ssh or VNC.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 10 people enter a bar: 1 who understands binary,
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ 1 who doesn't, D who prefer to write it as hex,
⠈⠳⣄ and 1 who narrowly avoided an off-by-one error.
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:50:51 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:17:13AM -0300, Fernando M. Maresca wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:20:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > Cgroups? There are other ways to do Cgroups without systemd, and
> > > a lot of systemd's buzz for using cgroups is available in runit,
> > > which has the finish script to clean up, and the finish script
> > > for process A can stop process b, c and d if that's desired.
> > > There's almost nothing *needed* that systemd can do that runit
> > > can't do, except lock your OS in a "no replaceable parts shield.  
> 
> Aren't cgroups implemented in the kernel anyway?

Yes.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:50:51 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:17:13AM -0300, Fernando M. Maresca wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:20:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > 
> > > Multiseating? When's the last time you had serial cables to
> > > monitors? We have much more efficient Gigabit Eternet.  
> 
> Over serial lines?  1979.  With text-only terminals.  I think it may 
> have been on Unix version 3 or so.  
> 
> The last time I used what I perceived as multiseating it was done
> over 10-megabit Ethernet.  Worked fine.

OK. Next question. What is the cost difference between a computer
terminal and a low power computer with the muscle to run apps whose
data is on the central server?

If one uses terminals, how many users can a high power computer handle?
50? 100? On the other hand, if every user contributes enough CPU to run
the apps, it could be thousands.

SteveT

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:17:13AM -0300, Fernando M. Maresca wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:20:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > Multiseating? When's the last time you had serial cables to monitors?
> > We have much more efficient Gigabit Eternet.

Over serial lines?  1979.  With text-only terminals.  I think it may 
have been on Unix version 3 or so.  

The last time I used what I perceived as multiseating it was done over 
10-megabit Ethernet.  Worked fine.

> > Cgroups? There are other ways to do Cgroups without systemd, and a lot
> > of systemd's buzz for using cgroups is available in runit, which has
> > the finish script to clean up, and the finish script for process A can
> > stop process b, c and d if that's desired. There's almost nothing
> > *needed* that systemd can do that runit can't do, except lock your OS
> > in a "no replaceable parts shield.

Aren't cgroups implemented in the kernel anyway?

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Joel Roth]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:58:33PM +0200, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > > c) where and how would you draw the line indicating what's unacceptable 
> > > about
> > > systemd - in other words, what exactly do you mean by "the Unix paradigm" 
> > > in
> > > your comment above?
> > Split out the PID 1 stuff to just the bare minimum of what needs to be
> > there, organize everything else into appropriate units.
> > 
> > This is not a trivial project, which is why nobody has taken it on AFAIK,
> > but systemd must be doing something that package maintainers and developers
> > want. That suggests that the way to beat them is to do that, only better.
> 
> The problem is exactly there: you don't really need systemd if you
> just need a reliable PID 1. What appeals systemd's enthusiasts is the
> process supervision and management system. Which is probably 90% of
> the reason why systemd needed to fagocitate the whole low-level
> user-space (please remember that the only way to reliably know that a
> process is dead under unix is to be the parent of that process).
> 
> I know the issue looks easy and straightforward on the surface. But
> when you start looking into it seriously, you quickly realise that
> things are not as straightforward as you thought ;)

To summarize (IIUC) the main beneficiaries of systemd are:

1) a few heavyweight desktop frameworks and tightly coupled applications
2) some heavy-duty system administrators who want to use systemd's process 
management

General-purpose applications (and daemons, etc.) that
attempt to do one (non-desktoppy) thing well either don't
require systemd, or systemd support is a compile-time option
that can be opted out of. 

I, personally, see no single attraction in all of the 
systemd bandwagon. But then I work in the terminal when 
I can, and still type the u?mount commands every day.

Perhaps someone could implement a reasonable subset of
support for systemd unit files, but why bother?  As
discussed here ad nauseum, you can get sufficient process
management abilities elsewhere, with less pain. 
The others (please speak up if I'm mistaken) are mainly
interested in desktop environments, for which a subset of
systemd's abilities will likely never be good enough. 

Devuan already provides DBus, which is magical enough
for a lot of GUI cleverness.

I will be interested to see if there are users for a process
management framework that supports systemd unit files.
Right now it looks like an itch that no one is interested in
scratching.  More power to anyone who wants to take a stab
at it.  I'm here with my popcorn to see what happens.

AFAIK, I have only a few daemons running on my system, and
would rather use some lightweight framework to start and
supervise them even if I had to write half a dozen scripts
myself.

Why would I want millions of lines of code developed by
someone whose agenda is so radically different from my own
goals and aspirations? Why would I want compatibility with
something fiendishly complicated and created for what
appears to be no more than creating jobs and breaking with
the battle tested philosophies of administering systems
under unix.

Well, there I am ranting again :-)

Have fun, guys and gals, keep coding and smiling.
Trolls are invited to sit down to lunch, and eat
politely :-)


> My2Cents

I consider my thoughts to be more like rounding errors,
based on bruises and hard-won lessons of trying to fit
square pegs in round holes :-)

Joel


> KatolaZ
> 
> -- 
> [ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
> [ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
> [   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
> [ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]



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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Bruce Ferrell (bferr...@baywinds.org):

> For Linux stuff I've become somewhat fond of X2go

Yes, X2Go's really good -- delivering on the promise of FreenX (now
unmaintained) to greatly improve on the performance delivery of VNC/RFP
and RDP.

-- 
Cheers,  Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj.
Rick Moen
r...@linuxmafia.com
McQ!  (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:58:33 +0200
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > > c) where and how would you draw the line indicating what's
> > > unacceptable about systemd - in other words, what exactly do you
> > > mean by "the Unix paradigm" in your comment above?  
> > Split out the PID 1 stuff to just the bare minimum of what needs to
> > be there, organize everything else into appropriate units.
> > 
> > This is not a trivial project, which is why nobody has taken it on
> > AFAIK, but systemd must be doing something that package maintainers
> > and developers want. That suggests that the way to beat them is to
> > do that, only better.  
> 
> The problem is exactly there: you don't really need systemd if you
> just need a reliable PID 1. What appeals systemd's enthusiasts is the
> process supervision and management system. 

In the preceding paragraph, you perfectly described both runit and s6.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting info at smallinnovations dot nl (i...@smallinnovations.nl):

> The easiest way would be to make a connection with ssh  -X or -Y which
> enables X-forwarding. You then can start a individual X program from the
> commandline but also the complete WM. Perfectly showing how capable
> linux is in use. For more extended capabilities you could install x2go
> server and client which will also make possible to have more then one
> remote desktop.

I _try_ to keep up with the remote-imaging options, here:
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Legacy_Microsoft/vnc-and-similar.html
(This area seems to be constantly changing.)


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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[g4sra]

> ..the systemd approach was (and still is?) convert (or "generate")
> sysvinit scripts into systemd unit files.  
Still is. But that is only half the issue. As mentioned already, any
attempt to run a sysv script is intercepted by SystemD. The
corresponding unit file ('generated' or 'packaged') is executed
*instead*. This is seriously flawed (take the simple case where the
sysvinit script fixes up the ENV for a daemon service in some custom
way, SystemD fails to pass that on in it's 'generated' unit file).

I recently had an issue where SystemD failed to stop a service (to
reload the configuration on restart) after an upgrade. Investigation
revealed that SystemD could no longer identify the running daemon, and
as it could not find it, claimed it was already stopped.
'killall -TERM' found it fine.

> "All" we need to do, is reverse this approach to support or convert
> "native systemd" software with "no non-systemd support" into something
> we _can_ use.
Reversing \ converting the unit scripts is not enough, Time services
have been hooked by SystemD, Networking has been hooked by SystemD,
Logging is hooked by SystemD, UDEV os hooked by SystemD, etc, etc, all
that needs to be undone too.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:14:52PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> On 17-10-18 13:19, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I recently installed Devuan Jessie on a computer for presentations via
> > large TV. And that machine is also directly wired in a small LAN to
> > another box that runs some old Ubuntu (probably 12.04 or so, it is
> > also just to tell the audience what Linux is about). Machines can ping
> > each other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to
> > introduce Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or like.
> > Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to those
> > boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded elsewhere
> > and brought on USB or CD.
> >
> > Misko 
> 
> 
> Hi Misko,
> 
> The easiest way would be to make a connection with ssh  -X or -Y which
> enables X-forwarding. You then can start a individual X program from the
> commandline but also the complete WM. Perfectly showing how capable
> linux is in use. For more extended capabilities you could install x2go
> server and client which will also make possible to have more then one
> remote desktop.

You may end up with network delays for systems that are designed with 
the speed of a local video display in mind.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:51:11PM +0200, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 October 2018 at 17:37:14, Bruce Ferrell wrote:
> 
> > "They" REALLY want to force the use of systemd.
> > 
> > I REALLY don't want to use systemd.  I've seen too many problems since
> > it's introduction.
> > 
> > Now that I've completed my sermon to the choir...  Shall I speak on the
> > patch to Apache they felt necessary that broke serving wordpress?
> 
> Not unless it's relevant / important to Devuan :)

It might be if any of us use Apache to serve wordpress.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:14:46 +0200, Edward wrote in message 
:

> Why doesn't Devuan edit sysvinit to use systemd's unit files instead
> of scripts? That would bypass the entire problem. Those who want to
> stick to scripts can always direct sysvinit to use scripts instead.

..the systemd approach was (and still is?) convert (or "generate")
sysvinit scripts into systemd unit files.  
"All" we need to do, is reverse this approach to support or convert
"native systemd" software with "no non-systemd support" into something
we _can_ use.

..the 4 other kinds of software: 0. has no need for "init support",
1. "is natively supported by all native Devuan init systems", and 
2. buggy ones where we need to yank libsystemd0 etc "support", and 
3. "has native support by a native Devuan init system" where we can
fetch the source UPSTREAM of Debian.org and build as Devuan .debs, 
you know, just like Debian.org USED to do in the good old day before
pulseaudio etc.


> An edit/patch would aim to make sysvinit recognise unit files and run
> scripts when instructed to.
> 
> Before I get a barrage of smart-ass replies like 'You do not
> understand', yes, I know, it is EASIER SAID than DONE. Everything
> technical is like that, unfortunately.

..hear, hear. ;o)


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Bruce Ferrell]

On 10/17/18 8:51 AM, Antony Stone wrote:

On Wednesday 17 October 2018 at 17:37:14, Bruce Ferrell wrote:


On 10/17/18 8:24 AM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:

On 17-10-18 15:14, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Why doesn't Devuan edit sysvinit to use systemd's unit files instead
of scripts? That would bypass the entire problem. Those who want to
stick to scripts can always direct sysvinit to use scripts instead. An
edit/patch would aim to make sysvinit recognise unit files and run
scripts when instructed to.

Before I get a barrage of smart-ass replies like 'You do not
understand', yes, I know, it is EASIER SAID than DONE. Everything
technical is like that, unfortunately.

This has been discussed before on this list. My proposal was to replace
libsystemd0 with a devuan specific version (see Re: [DNG] Provides:
libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)) with a modular api system.
Which also could be extended to a version that uses the systemd unit
file.

But it is not simple and i do not have the programmer skills to build it
my self.

Actually, it's NOT that difficult...

On one distro I've seen, the sysv init scripts sources a system shell
function file.

Care to name that distro?


One of those functions would test for the presence of elements of
systemd.  If found, use systemd and it's unit files.  Else use "normal"
init mechanisms.

I used to patch the init scripts to make systemd "vanish" for certain
things... Then the distro devs pulled that ability from that system
shell function file.

How long ago?


"They" REALLY want to force the use of systemd.

I REALLY don't want to use systemd.  I've seen too many problems since
it's introduction.

Now that I've completed my sermon to the choir...  Shall I speak on the
patch to Apache they felt necessary that broke serving wordpress?

Not unless it's relevant / important to Devuan :)


Antony.

Anthony
I'm trying REALLY hard to not escalate this so I'll just leave the 
distro unnamed, if I may.


It isn't out of North Carolina though.

The sysV patch trick disappeared... I guess about two years ago in a 
rolling update.  It made me unhappy.


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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Antony Stone]

On Wednesday 17 October 2018 at 17:37:14, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

> On 10/17/18 8:24 AM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> > On 17-10-18 15:14, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> >> Why doesn't Devuan edit sysvinit to use systemd's unit files instead
> >> of scripts? That would bypass the entire problem. Those who want to
> >> stick to scripts can always direct sysvinit to use scripts instead. An
> >> edit/patch would aim to make sysvinit recognise unit files and run
> >> scripts when instructed to.
> >> 
> >> Before I get a barrage of smart-ass replies like 'You do not
> >> understand', yes, I know, it is EASIER SAID than DONE. Everything
> >> technical is like that, unfortunately.
> > 
> > This has been discussed before on this list. My proposal was to replace
> > libsystemd0 with a devuan specific version (see Re: [DNG] Provides:
> > libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)) with a modular api system.
> > Which also could be extended to a version that uses the systemd unit
> > file.
> > 
> > But it is not simple and i do not have the programmer skills to build it
> > my self.
> 
> Actually, it's NOT that difficult...
> 
> On one distro I've seen, the sysv init scripts sources a system shell
> function file.

Care to name that distro?

> One of those functions would test for the presence of elements of
> systemd.  If found, use systemd and it's unit files.  Else use "normal"
> init mechanisms.
> 
> I used to patch the init scripts to make systemd "vanish" for certain
> things... Then the distro devs pulled that ability from that system
> shell function file.

How long ago?

> "They" REALLY want to force the use of systemd.
> 
> I REALLY don't want to use systemd.  I've seen too many problems since
> it's introduction.
> 
> Now that I've completed my sermon to the choir...  Shall I speak on the
> patch to Apache they felt necessary that broke serving wordpress?

Not unless it's relevant / important to Devuan :)


Antony.

-- 
What do you call a dinosaur with only one eye?  A Doyouthinkesaurus.

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
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Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

[Bruce Ferrell]

On 10/17/18 8:24 AM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:

On 17-10-18 15:14, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Why doesn't Devuan edit sysvinit to use systemd's unit files instead
of scripts? That would bypass the entire problem. Those who want to
stick to scripts can always direct sysvinit to use scripts instead. An
edit/patch would aim to make sysvinit recognise unit files and run
scripts when instructed to.

Before I get a barrage of smart-ass replies like 'You do not
understand', yes, I know, it is EASIER SAID than DONE. Everything
technical is like that, unfortunately.
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This has been discussed before on this list. My proposal was to replace
libsystemd0 with a devuan specific version (see Re: [DNG] Provides:
libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)) with a modular api system.
Which also could be extended to a version that uses the systemd unit file.

But it is not simple and i do not have the programmer skills to build it
my self.

Grtz

Nick




Actually, it's NOT that difficult...

On one distro I've seen, the sysv init scripts sources a system shell 
function file.


One of those functions would test for the presence of elements of 
systemd.  If found, use systemd and it's unit files.  Else use "normal" 
init mechanisms.


I used to patch the init scripts to make systemd "vanish" for certain 
things... Then the distro devs pulled that ability from that system 
shell function file.


"They" REALLY want to force the use of systemd.

I REALLY don't want to use systemd.  I've seen too many problems since 
it's introduction.


Now that I've completed my sermon to the choir...  Shall I speak on the 
patch to Apache they felt necessary that broke serving wordpress?








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