Re: [Elecraft] K3 changing RX filter during transmit

[David Cutter]

Yes, please

David
G3UNA


On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:12:54 -0800, Vic K2VCO wrote:


Both Ad PA8AD and I repeatedly wanted to change the filter setting
during the last transmission of the QSO (the "TU  PI4D"), anticipating
the next QSO.
During transmission the RX filter controls are locked.
 
So, can the filter controls be unlocked please. This will be more

pleasant for operating.


YES! 


Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Perseus SDR as a 2nd RX

[Toby Deinhardt]

Hi Gerry,

There is no need for additional filtering since the Perseus has 9 six 
pole front-end bandpass filters (1.7 - 30 MHz.) plus a 3 pole low pass 
for 10 kHz. - 1.7 MHz.)


I hope you don't mind my being at slightly sceptical that a low pass 
filter is enough for serious LW/MW work. If one has a medium wave or 
long wave broadcast stations in the vicinity, then additional filtering 
will almost surely be needed.


Also it will be interesting to read how well the IMD behavior of the SW 
front end filters themselves in such a small enclosure is. Small sized 
toroids can, from what I know, be a weak point in a receiver with high 
dynamic range.


From what I've heard radios such as the Perseus appear indeed to be 
very interesting but as always, a new technology, like good wine, needs 
time to mature.


vy 73 de toby


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[Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report for December 1st, 2008

[Kevin Rock]

Good Evening,
   The bands were not being helpful tonight.  On twenty meters I was able to 
gain a few checkins but they were mostly 'local' (OR, AK, and CA).  UA0IT is 
probably not local :)  [In fact Andy is local, he lives in Magadan.]  I'll find 
out when I can use the Internet again.  Right now I have no telephone, it has 
been out since around noon.  The last few days it has been intermittent at best 
but mostly down.  Verizon has been promising to replace the equipment further 
down the mountain for over a year but they are still employing a temporary, 
used, replacement trailer.  The latest news is they will put a cell tower in on 
the top of the mountain (about 500 yards away).  Maybe I will get better 
service from that.  I have never used a cell phone but hope there may be a way 
to improve my Internet connection from its current 24 kB/second to something a 
little faster and more reliable.  One can only hope.  Pat and I grew used to 
our convenient DSL hookup when we lived in Albuquerque.  I did most of my grad 
work at home because my equipment was better and the Internet connection was 
faster than what I had in the ECE department.  My CS  grad work had a separate 
account and was the fastest on campus.  But, then, they were hooked to the 
fastest parallel computer in the world (at least a few times a year).  
   However, the forty meter net was better and Tom was able to hear me and help 
me.  QSB was rampant so I could not dig a few out which he was able to work.  
While Tom was NCS I kept hearing CQs on frequency from another three stations.  
One in Alaska and the other two were in 4 land.  They would fade out and Tom 
would come back.  While I was listening prior to the first net twenty meters 
sounded very good with all the contesters banging away.  I did not hear the QSB 
but, then, there exchanges are much shorter than ours.  My first QNI was 
obviously taking part in said contest because he likes these activities (WS7L). 
 He also happens to be a K3 owner and a fellow VE person.  I was surprised to 
be able to work NS7P directly.  Normally he is out of my ground wave and much 
too close for skip.  Tonight I could hear him on both bands fairly well but a 
little better on twenty. 
   Once again KL7CW, Rick in Palmer, Alaska had the best signal.  Seems odd 
that an Alaskan station running QRP power levels would hit Oregon so well but 
there seems to be some sort of duct which assists his signal.  There are other 
AK stations I hear regularly which are quite strong.  Propagation still seems 
like magic to me; I can never quite tell what is going to happen until I start 
calling.  

   On to the lists =>

   On 14050 kHz at z:
WS7L - Carl - OR - K3 - 486   QNI #5!
KL7CW - Rick - AK - KX1 - 798
UA0IT - Andy - Magadan - RU
K6DGW - Fred - CA - K3 - 642
NS7P - Phil - OR - K3 - 1826

   On 7045 kHz at 0300z:
N0SS - Tom - MO - K3 - 008 ** QNI #290 **
W3TMZ - Jack - FL - K3 - 1169
AB9V - Mike - IN - K3 - 398
K6DGW - Fred - CA - K3 - 642
W4SEC - Pete - FL - K2 - 5813
W6ZH - Pete - CA - K3 - 657
NS7P - Phil - OR - K3 - 1826  QNI #10!!
W0CZ - Ken - ND - K3 - 457
W0JFR - John - CO - K3 - 994
WB5BKL - Nick - TX - K3 - 231
K7SJ - Roger - WA - K3 - 75
W0NTA - Dick - CO - K3 - 1208
N0AR - Scott - MN - K2 - 4866
W1BPJ - Terry - CO - K1 - 1800
KL7IDA - Bill - AK 

   I hope there are no errors in the above lists but memory fades with time and 
I may have missed a relay during the 'interesting' propagation we were having 
last night ;)  If there are any corrections or fills necessary please email 
them to me.  We are due for a solar stream on the 3rd which after its initial 
interference should perk things up a little.  But propagation is an odd thing; 
one can never foretell its effects.  I am sorry for the delay in getting this 
report posted but between phone problems and working and chores it did get 
pushed back a little.  
   Until next week stay warm and stay well,
  73,
 Kevin.  KD5ONS   (Net Control Operator 5th Class)

-



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[Elecraft] ARRL FMT and K3 Results

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU]

I used my K3 in the ARRL FMT [1] and calibrated it against 10Mhz WWV 
just before.
I listed on 40m only, and measured two of the four signals I copied 
within 1Hz.  The other two were <2Hz off [2].
Interestingly, although I was off by >1Hz in two of the measurements, I 
was off <1Hz in the difference frequencies because of cancellation of 
errors.
For software, I used fldigi [3], a digital mode program which is now 
available on Windows as well as the tried-and-true Linux version.


[1] http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/fmt/
[2] http://www.b4h.net/fmt/fmtresults200811.php
[3] http://w1hkj.com/Fldigi.html

Leigh/WA5ZNU



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Perseus SDR as a 2nd RX

[SSB Electronic USA]

On November 16 Bill W4ZV wrote:


Also be aware that Blocking Dynamic Range (BDR) for the Perseus is
relatively poor, as is true for all current SDRs.  BDR is 99 dB at 2 kHz 
and

117 dB at 20 kHz versus 139 dB for both 2 and 20 kHz, per ARRL Product
Reviews.  If you have strong neighbors (either commercial or amateur
stations), the Perseus will need additional filtering to prevent strong
signals from overloading the front-end.


There is no need for additional filtering since the Perseus has 9 six pole 
front-end bandpass filters (1.7 - 30 MHz.) plus a 3 pole low pass for 10 
kHz. - 1.7 MHz.)


Today, SSB Electronic USA received an email from the ARRL acknowledging that 
errors were made in the measurement of the Perseus SDR.


Over the past year, extensive measurements have been conducted not only by 
Nico Palermo IV3NWV at Microtelecom but by Lief Asbrink SM5BSZ and Rob 
Sherwood NC0B.
The Blocking Dynamic Range (BDR) numbers measured by all of the above were 
much better (125 dB)  than the figures that were published by the League. 
In addition, the IMD Dynamic Range figures published in QST reflect 
differences at various spacings.  In an SDR such as the Perseus, the IMD 
Dynamic Range will be the same at 2 kHz, 5 kHz. or 20 kHz.


The ARRL is currently in the process of taking another look and they should 
be commended for doing so.  I am sure updated figures will be published in 
the near future.


Please don't accuse me of being biased just because I am the US Perseus 
distributor.  I also own a K3 s/n 1519 as well as a Perseus.   Both are 
great radio's.


I would like to commend Eric and Wayne at Elecraft, Nico at Microtelecom as 
well as Phil Covington for their contributions to receiver design and ham 
radio and . last but not least the ARRL and Rob Sherwood for all the 
reviews and measurements that give us something to think about and discuss 
when we're not playing radio.


73's
Gerry Rodski K3MKZ
SSB Electronic USA




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Nico Palermo]

>
> In that case the BDR would be 111 dB, would it not?  I believe the K3 was
>
measured at BDR of 140 dB at 2 kHz spacing on 14 MHz in the most recent ARRL
>
test.  Not that we would actually try to operate so close to such a strong
>
signal on CW due to key clicks, etc, but BDR results at wider spacings are
>
very important if there are other stations on the same band (e.g. one on SSB
>
and one on CW in Field Day or during a DXpedition like VP6DX, or if you had
>
a close neighbor on the same band).


You are not replying my question, Bill.
I've simply asked if you are able to listen to a -105 dBm with a + 7 dBm
inteferer placed at
a 2 kHz offset with your receiver.

You have two choices:
1) No, I can't.
2) Yes. I can.

If the reply is #1 you should explain me why if the BDR of your receiver is
declared to be 140 dB
at 2 kHz spacing and you are not able to do handle a 111 dB signal dynamic
range.
If the reply is #2 I kindly ask you to provide me the proof and I will
apologize with you.

BTW, if in a real situation nobody would try to operate 2 kHz apart a strong
CW signal, due to the
clicks, what the ARRL Blocking Compression Gain test at 2 kHz is meant for?
Is it for dummies?
Don't you think that questioning the utility of the test while being so
proud that your receiver is rated with that figure
is a really poor argument?

Can you briefly explain why you feel ARRL's definition of BDR below is not
>
correct?


...The blocking dynamic range is the difference between the level of the
> noise floor from the level of undesired
>
signal that produces a 1 dB decrease in a weak desired signal...
>

I already know the ARRL definition.
What "weak" means? Is it a signal at  the MDS level, 20 dB stronger, or 50?
Weak is not 1 foot, nor 2 inches/second. It is NaN, not a number.
For DXers weak means S 8, for others it is right the MDS, for other it is
the level of the least audible CW signal immersed in the noise, say 10 dB
less than its power.
If "weak" is meant to be S 8, be sure your receiver has a 140 BDR, as
defined by the ARRL, but I kindly let you note that the difference between
10 dBm (the level of the interfering carrier that produce a 1 dB decrease in
the weak signal in a receiver which has a sensitivity of -130 dBm) and -79
dBm (the weak S8 signal) is not 140 dB, but just 89 dB.
Do the same test with a weak desired signal which is S 4 and let me know if
you are able to measure the gain compression of your receiver or if instead
you simply you are not, just because the phase noise of the LO is 20 dB
higher and has already completely desensitized your equipment.
In the case you are not able to do it, why do you claim that your receiver
can handle a 140 dB dynamic range if it is not able to handle signal level
differences which are much less?

73,
Nico Palermo, IV3NWV
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[Elecraft] K3 converts during CQWW

[Bob Evans]

We had a Multi-Single effort in CQWW from K5NA here in south Texas.  We used
K3s in the 20M and 40M position with FT1000 MK-Vs at the 80/10 and 160/15
stations.  We had 2 K3 owners in the group and 2 MK-V owners.  By the end of
the contest (where we logged almost 3K QSOs, 167 zones and 571 countries),
the 2 MK-V owners were ready to jump into K3s.  I had actually never owned
an FT-1000 of any flavor, so it was very interesting to hear the difference
for myself.  The MK-V just sounded "mushy" (very technical term) when
compared to the K3s.  The K3s REALLY allowed us to essentially play in our
own little world as a RUN station and work very weak stations right through
the 40 over 9 signals next to us.  We also remarked at how none of us were
as fatigued as we would normally be after a 48 hour contest.  Admittedly, it
is much less fatiguing to have a good rate for a majority of the contest
rather than a bad rate, but the K3s did us a major favor by offering AFX to
ease our listening.  One of the MK-V owners had actually just received a new
K3 a few days before the contest, but didn't want to install it in place of
his trusty old MK-V.  After the contest, I think he wouldn't have minded if
we had K3s at all 4 positions.  I'm sure they will be there next year.

 

K5NA M/S in CQWW

Summary:
 Band  QSOs  Zones  Countries
--
  160:   7923   77
   80:  25931  113
   40: 119638  145
   20: 116336  140
   15:  20430   86
   10:   17 9   10
--
Total: 2918   167  571  Total Score = 5,650,128
 
73,
Bob K5WA

 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 plus symbol on display

[Lyle Johnson]

I have really tried not to ask this question, but, once again, I haven't 
been able to find the answer on my own. The plus symbol is below and to 
the right of the B vfo indicator. The only reference I can find to this 
in the manual is to offsets in FM repeater operation. This is non-split 
sideband. What the heck is it trying to tell me?


ESSB is enabled.

73,

Lyle KK7P
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[Elecraft] K3 plus symbol on display

[Ron Kenwood]

I have really tried not to ask this question, but, once again, I haven't 
been able to find the answer on my own. The plus symbol is below and to 
the right of the B vfo indicator. The only reference I can find to this 
in the manual is to offsets in FM repeater operation. This is non-split 
sideband. What the heck is it trying to tell me?


Ron W3ZV



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RE: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Bill W4ZV]

Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote:
> 
> Processing 
> gain may be of value at microwave frequencies with a quiet 
> sky but it is not going to help below 10 MHz with extreme 
> signals and high noise levels.
> 

Joe, as near as I can tell, you've hit on the primary cause of arguments
between intelligent folks like Leif SM5BSZ and Tom W8JI (both were on ARRL's
committee to review their Product Test procedures).  One is talking weak
signal EME, galactic noise and extremely wide interference spacings; the
other is talking about weak signal 160 meters, atmospheric noise and
relatively close interference spacings (e.g. the ARRL 160 or CQ 160
contests).  It may be that both are right for their respective applications,
so we may be having a discussion of apples and oranges.  Normal HF
applications of the K3 are much closer to Tom's world than Leif's world
IMHO.

I'm still waiting for independent measurements of BDR that show other SDR
approaches are near the results of the K3.  When I see that, I'll be the
first to be a believer.  Maybe the Perseus will do this, but I haven't seen
the "corrected" ARRL results yet.  When it comes to receiver performance,
I'm from Missouri (the "Show Me" state).

73,  Bill
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3---ADAT-ADT-200A-by-HB9CBU-tp1597981p1601915.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Toby Deinhardt]

has anybody done a serious test of the ADT-200A transceiver yet?


When I asked this question, I sure did not expect the very educational 
discussion which has broken out. I'm very thankful, as a photographer 
who programs graphic systems for television, many good points were made 
which I might not have thought about on my own.


From a purely amateurish SWL point of view, I have had the chance to 
play with a few very expensive high end LW/MW/SW receivers, designed for 
use by the government, military, etc. One thing which has struck me, was 
the often poor IMD2 behavior of these radios, unless if they were using 
good, fairly small-band input filters.


Also a real world test of a radio, would also have to deal with aspects 
such as the user interface as well. This is one of the reasons I did not 
"upgrade" from the Flex-1000 to the Flex-5000. I did however "upgrade" 
K2 to K3, and despite whatever inherent minor weakness it might have, 
I'm not sorry that I did.


vy 73 de toby
--
Real radios don't care whether they have knobs or not...

DD5FZ (ex 4n6fz, dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248, K3/100 #67
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[Elecraft] Re K3's use in cqww contest

[Norm Greenaway]

HI Guys
I joined in the cqww contest as a non contestant but as a contact using my
K3. And for the experience.
I only have an 80 m Delta loop to operate with, but 40 mtrs was wide open
here in Australia I ended up with 8  US contacts in half an hour, which is
very rare for me.
The K3 worked wonders. I did have a bit of trouble establishing callsings
from fast txing station. but apart from that it was fun.
Thanks to all I was lucky to work


73   Norm VK4NWG
K3 Nr 1615
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> You are right 
> that if you exceed the maximum voltage level into the ADC no 
> amount of processing gain will change this fact. 

Thank you.  Now, since you have set a hard limit on the signal 
to the ADC, any architecture must either allow sufficient 
margin to prevent overload or must install some form of hardware 
AGC to prevent overload from multiple, simultaneous, strong 
signals.  Any headroom comes from the practical dynamic range 
(maximum signal level minus absolute MDS (even with processing 
gain).  Choose the AGC route and you're back into AGC blocking 
where strong unwanted signals can decrease the gain to a point 
that a weak signal drops below detection level even with all 
the processing gain in the world.  

All SDRs, even the Perseus, attempt to minimize the effects 
of strong "unwanted" signals by using some form of front end 
filtering.

It is the strong multiple signal condition that is the problem 
for contesters/DXers on the lowbands where the goal is to copy 
a -140 dBm signal in the middle of 20 or S9+40 dB "locals" all 
within 20 or 30 KHz.  This is the same problem on 7 MHz in 
Europe where a user might be trying to copy a -140 dBm signal 
with three or four 0 to +10 dBm mega-power broadcasters only 
100 KHz away.  In either case, ADC overload (overflow) and/or 
ACG induced blocking are almost guaranteed with ANY SDR design 
that does not utilize very tight front end ("roofing") filters. 

> The weakest signal 
> that can be resolved plays just as important a part in the 
> calculation of the blocking dynamic range of a receiver as 
> its strong signal handling capability - and this is true 
> whether we are talking about ADCs or analog receivers.

Of course, but there is still a finite range between the 
two limits.  The maximum instantaneous peak is driven by 
the number and strength of incoming signals and the minimum 
discernable signal level is defined not by processing gain 
but by "sky noise."  All the processing gain goes only so 
far ... the limit is still well above the theoretical ability 
to detect one signal in the absence of noise.  Processing 
gain may be of value at microwave frequencies with a quiet 
sky but it is not going to help below 10 MHz with extreme 
signals and high noise levels. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 
  


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philip 
> Covington
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 4:40 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Bill W4ZV
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of bits 
> >> without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate and signal 
> >> bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal processing gain" or 
> >> "process gain".
> >
> > The concept of processing gain is completely different than 
> blocking 
> > dynamic range.  The maximum large signal capability of any 
> DAC has an 
> > absolute limit based on the largest integer the DAC can resolve and 
> > the DAC reference voltage. When more than one signal is 
> present within 
> > the "window" (DC to maximum
> > frequency) of the DAC the DAC needs to be able to handle the sum of 
> > the instantaneous peak (vector maximum) voltages not their average 
> > levels.
> >
> > No amount of decimation and processing will reduce the 
> instantaneous 
> > peak voltage that the ADC must handle to prevent overload.  The 
> > clipping (overload) level results in distortion (IMD) or imposes an 
> > operating condition that must be prevented by the application of 
> > hardware AGC (gain
> > reduction) ahead of the ADC (blocking).  Decimation and processing 
> > gain are only of value as long as he hardware is operating 
> within its 
> > linear range.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> >   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> I assume you mean ADC above and not DAC...  You are right 
> that if you exceed the maximum voltage level into the ADC no 
> amount of processing gain will change this fact.  What the 
> processing gain does give you is the ability to hear weak 
> signals that are much lower than the 14 or 16 bit ADC without 
> decimation would be capable of hearing.  The weakest signal 
> that can be resolved plays just as important a part in the 
> calculation of the blocking dynamic range of a receiver as 
> its strong signal handling capability - and this is true 
> whether we are talking about ADCs or analog receivers.
> 
> -- 
> Phil Covington
> Software Radio Laboratory LLC
> Columbus, Ohio
> http://www.srl-llc.com ___
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Re: [Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...

[Grant Youngman]

I was in a Bose store over the weekend, saw these, and hit the  
"listen" button on the PC.  I was absolutely blown away by how good  
they sounded (and how high they are priced) given their VERY small  
size.  Quite remarkable, especially considering this is not a system  
with a subwoofer.  I think they actually sounded far better than most  
PC speaker systems with a sub.  I may have to save some pennies :)


Whether they'd make a good "communications" speaker is another thing  
altogether  



Grant/NQ5T


On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:00 AM, S Sacco wrote:

This caught my eye the other day, as a potentially excellent  
external speaker for my K3: 


No chance I'll be buying it anytime soon, at THAT price.

73,
Steve NN4X

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[Elecraft] OT: Flex 5000, ADAC Shmaydac

[DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL]

All I know is:

1.  I have zero IMD in real life with the K3 used at my QTH.  I could
not say this about any other radio used during a contest.

2.  From QST Product Review (c):
CW Choices
New with the FLEX-5000A is a real keyer plus provisions for CW
keyboarding, CW memories, dot-to-dash ratio and waveform shaping. Even
so, CW operation
was a somewhat less enjoyable experience than SSB. While the
manufacturer claims the FLEX-5000A is capable of full-break-in (QSK)
CW, most CW aficionados would call it "near QSK." If another station
can't break you with a single dit while you're sending, it's not true
QSK.

No QSK?  For me, kiss it goodbye...it's a no-starter.  I am NOT a "phone guy."

3.  Nothing is so "natural" for the human interface as a knob...or
several of them.  A mouse?  Yuck...good for the computer which has 2D
navigation, but not much else.  And even a mouse now comes standard
with a knob (scroll wheel).  Would you want to drive you car with a
mouse or knob (steering wheel)?  For 1D navigation, knobs are VFB.  No
wonder Flex offers an external knob as an option.  So...do you want to
have a line up of external knobs on your desk top (not your computer
desktop) - one for VFO A, one for VFO B, one for RIT/XIT, one
for..?

de Doug KR2Q
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Bill W4ZV]

Nico Palermo, IV3NWV wrote:
> 
> 
> If we follow the definition of BDR as made by ARRL tests you are right.
> Unfortunately this definition does not give an exact idea of the true
> dynamic
> range of a receiver.
> I can demonstrate, and I think that Phil can do it as well with his QS1R,
> that if you feed a so called SDR with a + 7 dBm (S 9+80) carrier
> interferer,
> you can comfortably listen to a - 104 dBm (S 4) signal which is 2 kHz
> apart
> the interferer.
> 

In that case the BDR would be 111 dB, would it not?  I believe the K3 was
measured at BDR of 140 dB at 2 kHz spacing on 14 MHz in the most recent ARRL
test.  Not that we would actually try to operate so close to such a strong
signal on CW due to key clicks, etc, but BDR results at wider spacings are
very important if there are other stations on the same band (e.g. one on SSB
and one on CW in Field Day or during a DXpedition like VP6DX, or if you had
a close neighbor on the same band).   

Can you briefly explain why you feel ARRL's definition of BDR below is not
correct?

5.7.1 The purpose of the Blocking Dynamic Range Test is to determine the
level of gain compression, or desensitization, that occurs as a result of
another signal on a nearby frequency. The blocking dynamic range is the
difference between the level of the noise floor from the level of undesired
signal that produces a 1 dB decrease in a weak desired signal. Frequencies
of 3.520 MHz, 14.020 MHz, 50.020 MHz, 144.020 MHz and 432.020 MHz are used
for this test as appropriate for the DUT. The calculation is as follows:
Blocking Dynamic Range = Blocking Level - Noise Floor (expressed in dBm)

73,  Bill  W4ZV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Nico Palermo]

Bill W4ZV wrote:

> Correct.  I believe the Perseus only has a 14-bit ADC so it's more limited
> in dynamic range than the 24-bit ADCs commonly used by other SDR rigs.

You probably are unaware that an ADC dynamic range in a given bandwidth
does not depend just on its ENOB (effective number of bits) but also on the
sampling frequency.

> Its dynamic range may be OK for IMD but today's SDRs cannot approach the
BDR of
> rigs like the K3 until even higher resolution ADCs become available.

Sorry to tell you a bad new: you are wrong!
Direct sampling receivers have a TRUE dynamic range, at least at small
spacings,
which is much higher than that of rigs which use IF sampling. This has
nothing to
do with ADC themselves, but with the receiver LOs. Modern SDRs use crystal
grade
LOs and digital tuners. IF sampling receivers don't and they ALWAYS suffer
the phase
noise of their synthesizers.

> I believe the best BDR I've seen for any SDR is the Flex 5000, which has
> just over 120 dB...the K3 is better by about 20 dB.

If we follow the definition of BDR as made by ARRL tests you are right.
Unfortunately this definition does not give an exact idea of the true
dynamic
range of a receiver.
I can demonstrate, and I think that Phil can do it as well with his QS1R,
that if you feed a so called SDR with a + 7 dBm (S 9+80) carrier interferer,

you can comfortably listen to a - 104 dBm (S 4) signal which is 2 kHz apart
the interferer.
Demonstrate that you can do the same with a receiver which uses a 24-bit ADC
at the
IF level and I will publicly apologize with you. In the case you can't I
will be glad to accept
your apologies.

"Conventional" radios begins to behave a little better than direct sampling
platforms
when carrier interferers are at least 100 kHz apart.
But please don't say that the close spacing blocking dynamic range of
"analog" platforms
is 20 dB better than that of good RF sampling radios. This is a really
amazing assertion.

>...which is why the hybrid approach of a narrow roofing filter before the
>ADC works so well in Orion and the K3.  The narrow roofing filters limit
>extremely strong signals outside the passband which would otherwise kick in
>ADC protection AGC.  I don't think there's a way around the fundamental
>limitation of ADC resolution in the direct conversion designs.

This could be true if your receiver LO phase noise were negligible.
Unfortuntately it isn't.

>Phil, on the QS-1R specifications webpage, I see BDR is specified at 125
>dB...very similar to the Flex 5000's 123 dB.  I haven't seen any
independent
>measurements of the QS-1R yet, but hope one will be forthcoming by ARRL.

If they will deserve QS1R the same treatment Perseus had on QST, I wish Phil
a very
good luck.

>Until SDR receivers are in the same >140 dB league of the K3, I'm not sure
>the contest community will bite this apple.  When higher resolution ADCs
>eventually become available at a reasonable price, I'm sure the situation
>will change.

You are still wrong. The situation is already changed but you are not aware
of it
yet. You are confusing a figure which is the Blocking Gain Compression with
the
true dynamic range of a receiver.

> P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest soapbox so far?
> ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real contesters).

This reasoning is a little bit amazing, I think.
Probably in the fourties you had no television set but this did not
prevented a television
set to enter the home of everyone and yours too.
Don't confuse what people knows with what people don't because they haven't
seen yet.
It takes time for news to be widely accepted, but sooner or later they are.
(Doesn't matter if pioneers died meanwhile, life is this way).

73
Nico Palermo, IV3NWV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:06:35 -0800 (PST), Bill W4ZV wrote:

> said a "very slow caller" in a "big pileup".  I did not say a slow caller
>with nobody else calling.  I stand by my statement.

Agreed. One W7 kept calling continuously at 18 wpm when it was obvious he 
couldn't hear the DX station. I heard several instances of that, and it made 
things quite difficult for the guys that COULD hear the DX.  

>I also wouldn't disparage contesters too much.  They're much more likely to
>hear your 100W to an attic antenna than someone using similar antennas to
>yours.  QRPers sometimes forget who is doing the real work when they make a
>rare DX contact.

Agreed on all counts. I've been in chairs on both sides of that QSO. The 
antenna farms at stations like N6RO and W8JI include serious RX antennas and 
serious RXs. THAT'S why they can work flies peeing out the window in JA on 
160. 

But I also agree with G4ILO when he correctly observed these egomaniacs CQing 
at 40 WPM for the last 8 hours of the contest and getting very few answers. 
QRQ WAS definitely part of why they were getting no calls -- they had already 
worked the several hundred guys who CAN read 40 WPM. My call has a lot of 
dashes in it, so I regularly work at 29 WPM or so, but when things get slow, 
I'll CQ at 25 or so. When it's not piled up, I'll certainly QRS when the other 
guy is QRS. But like you, when I'm running, the call I'll answer first is the 
one I think I can work the quickest, whether it's a better signal or a 
faster/better op. 

Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Bill W4ZV]

Tom Wylie wrote:
> 
> Isn't the K3 an SDR???
> 
> GM4FDM
> 

Not according to Flex Systems..."Real radios don't need knobs".   

Maybe not, but so far they don't win HF contests either...unless there are
no other entrants in the category.  ;-)

Technically you're correct.  The K3 and most high-end transceivers
introduced in the past ~10 years are technically SDRs (but they hide it
well).  :-)  There are at least 3 different variants of SDRs:

1.  Hybrid superhet/DSP.  Roofing filter front-end followed by DSP (e. g.
Orion, K3, IC-7800, etc).  
2.  Quadrature Sampling Detector (QSD) front-end (e.g. Flex 1000, 5000,
etc).
3.  Direct Conversion (high speed ADC) front-end  (Perseus, QS-1R, HPSDR,
etc).

73,  Bill


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW @ W8JI's

[Ralph K1ZZI]

I had the pleasure of operating SOSB 80m @ W8JI's.  We had a complex matrix of 
phased Beverages hooked up to his K3 in diversity mode.  Typically I had one 
Beverage locked on EU and the other ear would scan other Beverages.  When the 
JA path opened up I had two separate Beverages listening NW.  The first time 
you hear this your jaw drops.  The noise floor was so low I could hear a pin 
drop.  JL1TS called in running 5 watts (yes on 80m with wall to wall signals) 
and I counted 112 JA stations worked during our first sunrise. 

I normally run a FT-1000MP MKV and I have used W8JI's MKV's at his QTH in the 
past.  What struck me immediately with the K3 was how quite it was with wall to 
wall LOUD stations.  There was no IMD or junk noise going on that is always 
present on the MKV (with INRAD roofing filter) during a contest.  I put the K3 
in Passband mode (PB) and cranked about 450hz in on the filter.  Working up the 
band S&P was like using a laser.  I couldn't believe it.  I never recall a 
problem pulling out a DX station.  Like picking apples off a tree.  What a 
pleasure.

Occasionally I experience something strange that I can't explain with the sub 
RX (right ear).  Sometimes right after xmit I could hear clear CW signals in 
the sub RX.  I though someone was jumping onto my QRG.  I used the RIT after 
each CQ.  As soon as I touched the RIT the signal cleared.  I told the first 3 
ghosts to QSY before I realized it was a ghost signal.  It cleared as soon as I 
turned the RIT.  I was talking to myself which happens enough without my radio. 
 Sometimes when transmitting I could hear CW signals in the sub RX during the 
exchange. If anyone can offer an explanation I would be interested to hear it.  
Tom thought it might have something to do with PB mode but that discussion was 
after the contest so I didn't get a chance to try it with the PB off.

Ralph K1ZZI

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:31:20 -0800 (PST)
From: G3MLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii




Berni G0IDA wrote:
> 
> Dear members of the K3,
> 
> I just wanted to start a thread for those of you who used a K3 in CQWW, 
> to ask of your experiences during the contest using the K3, the set-up 
> you had and to see if we worked other K3 members.
> 
> 
> The K3 performed flawlessly (well done Elecraft) 
> 
> 
> 73's
> 
> Berni
> G0IDA
> 
> I am not a contest op just like to give points and get involved and of
> course
> see how well the K3 would perform.
> Main band was 40 and I had the chance to see how well the 250 c/s filter 
> coped with the high level of activity..all I can say exceptional
> performance,
> well worth the cost of this filter, I have also been impressed with the K3
> on 
> 160, it is by far the best receiver I have used in over 50 year in the
> hobby.
> My thanks to the excellent team at Elecraft for producing what is now the
> "Bench Mark Transceiver"
> 73 Peter G3MLO
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Also note that the Flex5000 does not have the "digitize the entire HF band
at once" architecture but rather uses a I/Q direct conversion approach
followed by a pair of audio A/D converters sampling at 192kHz. The OP and my
follow-up question was really on how well the convert all of it at once type
receiver would fare in the real world.


Bill W4ZV wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found GI4NKB in the Assisted Category results on page 20 of CQ's online
> results pdf:
> 
> GI4NKB A 431,673 986 63 246
> 
> He was also the *only* entrant from Northern Ireland in that category. 
> ;-)   
> 
> 73,  Bill 
> 
> 


-
AB2TC - Knut
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[Elecraft] K3 - CQWW CW

[G4MKP]

Hi Tom,

Me too. Whilst running on 20m I received QRL QSY V26B 1 up. I did apologise
and QSY'd immediately. I felt bad about this and kicked myself for not
marking my band map - I must use this feature more. The last thing I want to
do is to make it difficult for the contest expeditions or 'rare' island type
stations in the more obscure zones. I'm afraid that the K3 allows us to
operate so close to adjacent stations, almost interference free, that we
forget about the non-believers who can't.

I have to confess to taking a less altruistic attitude to a certain East
European super station who requested that I bugger off. Encased within my
400Hz filter and a touch of cut-off I was oblivious to his presence and
worked a dozen or so more before QSY.

I always QRL? Twice, IMI twice and if nothing heard then off I go. Am I
being bolshy too?

Cheers,

Terry
G4MKP


In both the CQWWCW and RTTY Contests I found the K3 to be "too good".
In the zoo of 20 and 40m I could easily find a hole in which to CQ by 
using the K3 filters and variable bandwidth controls, but in both 
contests i often got pounced upon with QRL QSY.   I asked myself why.
If I cant hear another station because I am using the filtration system 
of the K3 - is it MY problem?   If they cannot reduce their rx bandwidth 
by the inclusion and usage of their filters - is that MY problem?

Perhaps we should all use a K3 then we could squeeze more stations into 
the available bandwidth...

If I am bothering YOU, but you are not bothering ME - than that is 
clearly YOUR problem.

or am I just being bolshy??

Tom
GM4FDM


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Bill W4ZV]

Philip Covington wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Bill W4ZV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> 73,  Bill  W4ZV
>>
>> P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest soapbox so far?
>> ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real contesters).
> 
> Not from the contest soapbox, but...
> 
> "GI4NKB Awarded First Place for Northern Ireland in the CQ WW CW 2007
> Contest using a FLEX-5000"
> 
> 73 Phil N8VB
> 

I found GI4NKB in the Assisted Category results on page 20 of CQ's online
results pdf:

GI4NKB A 431,673 986 63 246

He was also the *only* entrant from Northern Ireland in that category.  ;-)   

73,  Bill 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:26:23 -0800, Matt Zilmer wrote:

>Well, it's a known issue.  It goes two ways, too.  I have a neighbor
>that runs all gain controls fully clockwise, to the point that he
>takes up half of 80m with splatter.  This renders the K3 deaf, 
because
>there is serious on-frequency signal.  

YES!  It takes peer pressure and a reminder that sportsmanship and 
ethics prohibit us from running a race with elbows flying (which is 
what you do when an old/cheap radio and big power amp). Or generate 
clicks with an un-modified Yaesu MP. Running high power carries with 
it the responsibility for having a clean signal.  

During the contest yesterday, I observed that a certain JA5Fxx was 
getting blasted on the cluster for clicks. Sure enough, I listened 
here and he was clicking in CA on 160M, 4,000 miles away, with an S8 
signal. I called him five times to tell him about his clicks, but he 
ignored me and went right on QRMing his neighbors. I heard him later 
on two other bands, but didn't call him. 

I have neighbors with K3s and KW amps only a quarter mile away, 2 
miles away (N6RZ), and 5 miles away (K6XX). I find that we can 
coexist with each other quite well. Two of us (W6DRX and myself) 
bought K3s specifically so that we could do so. I had just bought a 
pair of used MPs, so I didn't need MORE radios, only BETTER radios. 
:)

And it isn't enough to buy and use a K3 -- we've got a neighboring 
contester about 15 miles away with a K3 who often burns more of the 
band than W6DRX (only 0.25 miles from me). Dunno what he's doing, but 
it isn't good. 

73,

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[John]

At 02:46 PM 01/12/08, you wrote:


I operated QRP (as usual).  717 Qs, 79 total zones, 277 total
countries, final score = 695,624.  I am thrilled to have worked 107
countries on 20m alone!  QRP DXCC in one weekend on ONE BAND.  :-)

de Doug KR2Q
___


107 countries on 1 band in a weekend is very cool at QRP.  Way to go Doug!

I haven't done that yet, however, I did work all ARRL sections, 
including Canada, in 12 hours running QRP in ARRL SSCW. Was using my 
trusty K2's.


In DX contests, if I hear a pileup on a DX station that's CQing, I 
just move on and come back later. No sense beating your brains out 
over a few points when there are easier ones to work.


John
k7up

K3, 2 K2's, K1.. 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Tom Wylie]

Isn't the K3 an SDR???


GM4FDM




Philip Covington wrote:

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Bill W4ZV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

73,  Bill  W4ZV

P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest soapbox so far?
ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real contesters).



Not from the contest soapbox, but...

"GI4NKB Awarded First Place for Northern Ireland in the CQ WW CW 2007
Contest using a FLEX-5000"

73 Phil N8VB
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Matt Zilmer]

>Perhaps we should all use a K3 then we could squeeze more stations into 
>the available bandwidth...
>
I think you might be able to get the principals at Elecraft to sign up
to this idea.

>If I am bothering YOU, but you are not bothering ME - than that is 
>clearly YOUR problem.
>
Well, it's a known issue.  It goes two ways, too.  I have a neighbor
that runs all gain controls fully clockwise, to the point that he
takes up half of 80m with splatter.  This renders the K3 deaf, because
there is serious on-frequency signal.  If I could just get this guy to
understand that he's supposed to keep his RF energy on frequency, and
could explain that using reasonable gain settings is one way to
accomplish this  the problem would go away.

>or am I just being bolshy??
>
No - I've come across the same complaint from others.  The K3 remakes
how the world will use HF radio.  "In between" takes on a whole new
meaning.

73,
matt
W6NIA
K3 #24

>Tom
>GM4FDM
>
>
>
>GM0ELP wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I was active as MM3T at the weekend with K3 #1293 and K2 #4688, Acom 1000,
>> Doublet 160/80, 1/4 GP 40 and Cobweb 20,15 and 10m. The last 3 CQWW CW I've
>> been using an FT1000MP MkV with inrad 4K roof filter (fully loaded) so was
>> keen to give the K3 the try for the first time.
>>
>> My K3 has 400/1k roofing filters installed. It needed the 400 engaged on all
>> but 15 and 10m which were quiet here in GM and so the 1k came in to good
>> use. I had intended to use Dual PB but forgot all about it.
>>
>> I had one problem with the K3 on top band when the rx went quiet and tx
>> power disappeared in a kind of intermittent way just after transmitting. It
>> took me a while to realise it wasn't the tuner/coax/LPF/Linear connections
>> and seemed to be located in the back panel audio connections area. Putting
>> my hand down the back of the transceiver and giving the connections a wiggle
>> seemed to bring the radio back to life. At one stage I power cycled the K3
>> and got an ERR PLL message or something on the display. This only happened
>> when I was on top band.
>>
>> I used fast AGC with AGC threshold 5 and AGC slope 10 for high bands and 8/8
>> for low bands respectively. I changed these settings a number of times
>> during the contest and ended up with several favourites dependant on
>> band/noise. I was raising the threshold in line with rising noise levels and
>> adjusting the slope downward when dealing with pile ups which helped my
>> brain separate the callers by adding sound level difference. Using the PF1
>> and PF2 keys for threshold and slope worked a treat.
>>
>> I had been using a K1EL keyer with the MkV in the past and decided to
>> simplify things this year with the K3 by using DTR-RTS for key-ptt. This
>> coupled with WinTest contest software worked flawlessly (even with open wire
>> feeder in the shack).
>>
>> I allowed condx to determine my sending speed, if things got hectic whilst
>> running, my speed went up and when trying to bag a weak one on a noisy band
>> my speed went down. I did miss the winkey variable pot when working slow
>> stations, but just had to hope they had been listening to me enough to get
>> the call right before calling. I get more angry with inefficient exchange
>> (mindlessly repeating things like my call) rather than slow speed callers.
>> The worst combo when working a pile up is a slow caller who thinks data type
>> exchanges are the norm, as 9/10 times this one station will cause someone
>> else to steal your frequency whilst you are waiting for his exchange to
>> finish.
>>
>> The EU really is a zoo during CQWW CW and I've tried using lesser radios in
>> the past and given in. I did 24hrs with the K3 and still love it despite the
>> top band band failure. A fully loaded MkV is a hard act to follow, but I did
>> spend $6000 (ROB) on it and then had to install an inrad roof and do key
>> click mods to get it to work properly.
>>
>> Thanks to all who worked me!
>>
>> Doug GM0ELP (MM3T)
>>   
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Philip Covington]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Bill W4ZV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 73,  Bill  W4ZV
>
> P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest soapbox so far?
> ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real contesters).

Not from the contest soapbox, but...

"GI4NKB Awarded First Place for Northern Ireland in the CQ WW CW 2007
Contest using a FLEX-5000"

73 Phil N8VB
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Tom Wylie]

In both the CQWWCW and RTTY Contests I found the K3 to be "too good".
In the zoo of 20 and 40m I could easily find a hole in which to CQ by 
using the K3 filters and variable bandwidth controls, but in both 
contests i often got pounced upon with QRL QSY.   I asked myself why.
If I cant hear another station because I am using the filtration system 
of the K3 - is it MY problem?   If they cannot reduce their rx bandwidth 
by the inclusion and usage of their filters - is that MY problem?


Perhaps we should all use a K3 then we could squeeze more stations into 
the available bandwidth...


If I am bothering YOU, but you are not bothering ME - than that is 
clearly YOUR problem.


or am I just being bolshy??

Tom
GM4FDM



GM0ELP wrote:

Hi All,
I was active as MM3T at the weekend with K3 #1293 and K2 #4688, Acom 1000,
Doublet 160/80, 1/4 GP 40 and Cobweb 20,15 and 10m. The last 3 CQWW CW I've
been using an FT1000MP MkV with inrad 4K roof filter (fully loaded) so was
keen to give the K3 the try for the first time.

My K3 has 400/1k roofing filters installed. It needed the 400 engaged on all
but 15 and 10m which were quiet here in GM and so the 1k came in to good
use. I had intended to use Dual PB but forgot all about it.

I had one problem with the K3 on top band when the rx went quiet and tx
power disappeared in a kind of intermittent way just after transmitting. It
took me a while to realise it wasn't the tuner/coax/LPF/Linear connections
and seemed to be located in the back panel audio connections area. Putting
my hand down the back of the transceiver and giving the connections a wiggle
seemed to bring the radio back to life. At one stage I power cycled the K3
and got an ERR PLL message or something on the display. This only happened
when I was on top band.

I used fast AGC with AGC threshold 5 and AGC slope 10 for high bands and 8/8
for low bands respectively. I changed these settings a number of times
during the contest and ended up with several favourites dependant on
band/noise. I was raising the threshold in line with rising noise levels and
adjusting the slope downward when dealing with pile ups which helped my
brain separate the callers by adding sound level difference. Using the PF1
and PF2 keys for threshold and slope worked a treat.

I had been using a K1EL keyer with the MkV in the past and decided to
simplify things this year with the K3 by using DTR-RTS for key-ptt. This
coupled with WinTest contest software worked flawlessly (even with open wire
feeder in the shack).

I allowed condx to determine my sending speed, if things got hectic whilst
running, my speed went up and when trying to bag a weak one on a noisy band
my speed went down. I did miss the winkey variable pot when working slow
stations, but just had to hope they had been listening to me enough to get
the call right before calling. I get more angry with inefficient exchange
(mindlessly repeating things like my call) rather than slow speed callers.
The worst combo when working a pile up is a slow caller who thinks data type
exchanges are the norm, as 9/10 times this one station will cause someone
else to steal your frequency whilst you are waiting for his exchange to
finish.

The EU really is a zoo during CQWW CW and I've tried using lesser radios in
the past and given in. I did 24hrs with the K3 and still love it despite the
top band band failure. A fully loaded MkV is a hard act to follow, but I did
spend $6000 (ROB) on it and then had to install an inrad roof and do key
click mods to get it to work properly.

Thanks to all who worked me!

Doug GM0ELP (MM3T)
  


--
So I met the bloke who invented crosswords today. I can't remember his
name, it's P something T something R.



---
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Virus Database (VPS): 081130-0, 30/11/2008
Tested on: 01/12/2008 22:15:53
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RE: [Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...

[Adam Koczarski]

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of S Sacco
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:01 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...

 

This caught my eye the other day, as a potentially excellent external
speaker for my K3:
 &DTCLinkID=7585&src=CMM>

No chance I'll be buying it anytime soon, at THAT price.

I have a set of their 3 speaker system (includes a sub woofer), attached to
a Logitech Duet streaming audio system. We use it in the bedroom to access
our 40,000 track mp3 collection there. They do sound pretty good! Maybe I'll
need to  them for some testing when the K3 is completed.

Adam - ka7ark

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re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[robert halloway]

Forward on behalf of Leif SM5BSZ:
___

Hi All,

I am not a member on the Elecraft list, but I did work quite some
time on this issue:

> I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF spectrum digitized
> at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am *very* skeptical.
> Although the Perseus (with that architecture) receiver fares relatively well
> in the recent ARRL test, the testing completely ignores what happens when
> there are not *two* but thousands of strong signals in the passband. With
> this new architecture, it's imperative that ARRL and other labs find other
> ways of evaluating real world performance as a simple two-tone test becomes
> completely irrelevant.

You are right. The "simple two-tone" test is irrelevant for units
like the Perseus or the SDR-14.

Have a look here (QEX Nov/Dec 2006):
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/qex/digital-imd.pdf
and here (for real life testing on 7MHz):
http://www.sm5bsz.com/digdynam/practical.htm

There are two properties one has to characterize when
testing the dynamic range of a radio receiver.

1) The ability to receive a small signal in the presence
of a single dominating interference. What has been published
by ARRL is totally wrong and should just be discarded.
The procedure adopted by the ARRL is intended to measure
the point where the front-end goes 1 dB into saturation
(or rather any stage preceeding the bandwidth-defining
final filter.) The FT1000D is not at -154 dB for example:
(QEX Mar/Apr 2006):
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/qex/bdr.pdf
Even in those cases where the ARRL Lab BDR is correctly measured
(to give 1 dB gain compression) the result is not at all
the blocking dynamic range as understood in the professional
world where it refers to the ratio (difference in dB) between the
strongest and the weakest signals that can be simultaneously
present without loss of readability of the weakest signal.
Surely the bandwidth, modulation type, frequency separation
and other things have to be specified, but generally the
mechanism is reciprocal mixing at narrow frequency
separations (or some other phenomrnon that behaves in a similar
fashion. e.g. AM modulation in preamplifiers.)

I like to call this the "two-signal dynamic range" (one strong
and one weak.)

2) The linearity of stages preceeding the bandwidth-limiting filter.
Conventionally this is measured with "a simple two-tone test"
Such measurements are often incorrect for various reasons, but
in recent years they are generally more reliable since a better
understanding for the problems is now widespread in the ham
community. I prefer to call this test "the three-signal dynamic
range" One weak plus two (equall) strong signals.

The point of 1 dB compression is closely related to IP3 in those cases
(large separations) where the attenuation for all the test tones
would be the same. There is yet another way to measure the same
thing and that is by measurement of cross modulation. (How strong
can a 60% modulated AM signal be before it modulates the desired
weak signal with x% AM modulation?)

As it turns out, worst case is with only two signals so the
best measurement is a two-tone test. One has to follow the
interference all the way to the noise floor. (And below
in case the modulation mode is operated below the noise floor
of the main filter. As an example, CW is typically operated
down to 15 dB below the noise floor since the human ear has an
effective bandwidth of less than 50Hz)
The link above, QEX Nov/Dec 2006, shows that the level of
the interference at the frequency of third order intermodulation
is independent of the signal level. It stays constant at about
-100 dBm for a SDR-14 which is high above the intrinsic noise
floor. There are also signals at a similar level corresponding
to IM5, IM7, IM9, IM11, ...

The mechanism is feedback from the 3 volt p-p signals at the
digital side. Linear has cips LTC2207 and others that reduce this
feedback by 15dB according to their own information if I remember
correctly. What I can measure on the Perseus is that IM3 flattens
out at about -125 dBm:
http://www.sm5bsz.com/perseus/perseus.htm
The Perseus has NF=22 dB while the SDR-14 has NF=12 dB.

The intermodulation-free dynamic range is 104 dB for the Perseus,
but only when the A/D converter is operated at the largest
possible signal level. For the SDR-14 it is 82 dB.

In real life there are more than two strong signals and that
improves the performance drastically since the phase-stability
of the signals on the digital side is destroyed (dithering.)

A radio like the Perseus would probably outperform a conventional
radio like the IC-7800 in a A/B test on e.g. 7 MHz with real
antennas and many BC stations provided a location can be found
where many BC stations are strong enough to produce false signals
on any of the receivers. The IC7800 has a dynamic range of 104
dB according to ARRL but it would not be as favourably affected
by a large number of strong signals.

Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Bill W4ZV]

Julian, G4ILO wrote:
> 
> 
> Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> 
>> Bill W4ZV wrote:
>> 
>>> I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow
>>> caller
>>> answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
>>> shouldn't be there.  
>> 
>> That sounds a bit harsh, Bill!
>> 
>> 
> 
> Thank you, Vic. This elitist attitude that just because someone can send
> code faster than someone else or has a bigger and more powerful station
> than someone else gives them more right to use the airwaves than anyone
> else makes my blood boil. This is a hobby and it is supposed to be fun.
> There is no other way to enjoy a contest when you have only 100W to an
> attic antenna farm. If only the serious big guns came on for a contest
> they'd all work each other in the first 6 hours and then what would they
> do? Well I won't waste my time giving W4ZV a point if I hear him on,
> that's for sure. Next I suppose we'll be hearing that QRP stations
> shouldn't bother coming on for a contest because they waste too much of
> people's time trying to copy them. Perhaps I'll just put my K3 on eBay
> since I'm obviously unworthy of owning it.
> 

Sorry you feel that way Julian but I don't believe you actually read my
message:

> I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow
> caller
> answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
> shouldn't be there. 

I said a "very slow caller" in a "big pileup".  I did not say a slow caller
with nobody else calling.  I stand by my statement.

I also wouldn't disparage contesters too much.  They're much more likely to
hear your 100W to an attic antenna than someone using similar antennas to
yours.  QRPers sometimes forget who is doing the real work when they make a
rare DX contact.

73,  Bill  W4ZV


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-and-CQWW-tp1597892p1600947.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[Elecraft] K3 arrived - ordered 10/14

[Adam Koczarski]

K3 kit #2265 just showed up at my office! Oh boy!!

 

Adam - ka7ark

 

 

 

 

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Re: [Elecraft] Power Amps and AGC

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:39:16 -0500, Jerry Flanders wrote:

>I agree that we shouldn't be trying to regulate power levels this way 
>- but as an emergency protective measure, it can save your butt.

I agree, and have no problem with using it that way.

73

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Philip Covington]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Bill W4ZV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote:
>>
>>
>>> This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of
>>> bits without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate
>>> and signal bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal
>>> processing gain" or "process gain".
>>
>> The concept of processing gain is completely different than
>> blocking dynamic range.  The maximum large signal capability
>> of any DAC has an absolute limit based on the largest integer
>> the DAC can resolve and the DAC reference voltage. When more
>> than one signal is present within the "window" (DC to maximum
>> frequency) of the DAC the DAC needs to be able to handle the
>> sum of the instantaneous peak (vector maximum) voltages not
>> their average levels.
>>
>> No amount of decimation and processing will reduce the
>> instantaneous peak voltage that the ADC must handle to
>> prevent overload.  The clipping (overload) level results
>> in distortion (IMD) or imposes an operating condition that
>> must be prevented by the application of hardware AGC (gain
>> reduction) ahead of the ADC (blocking).  Decimation and
>> processing gain are only of value as long as he hardware
>> is operating within its linear range.
>>
>
> ...which is why the hybrid approach of a narrow roofing filter before the
> ADC works so well in Orion and the K3.  The narrow roofing filters limit
> extremely strong signals outside the passband which would otherwise kick in
> ADC protection AGC.  I don't think there's a way around the fundamental
> limitation of ADC resolution in the direct conversion designs.
>
> Phil, on the QS-1R specifications webpage, I see BDR is specified at 125
> dB...very similar to the Flex 5000's 123 dB.  I haven't seen any independent
> measurements of the QS-1R yet, but hope one will be forthcoming by ARRL.
> Until SDR receivers are in the same >140 dB league of the K3, I'm not sure
> the contest community will bite this apple.  When higher resolution ADCs
> eventually become available at a reasonable price, I'm sure the situation
> will change.
>
> 73,  Bill
>

There is no "ADC protection AGC" in the Perseus or the QS1R.  Perseus
ADC begins clipping somewhere around -3 dBm without attenuation.  QS1R
begins clipping at +9 dBm.

Perseus already outperforms the K3's receiver regardless of the ARRL's
claimed 140 dB BDR of the K3.   The ARRL test of the Perseus was in
error (which has been pointed out) and hopefully they will be
publishing a correction soon.  As more ops get experience with these
direct sampling receivers, there will be many more converts.
Unfortunately there is a huge amount of misinformation out there
regarding SDR hardware and this is a contributing problem.

None of this is meant to disparage the excellent K3.  I am eying one myself.

-- 
Phil Covington
Software Radio Laboratory LLC
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.srl-llc.com
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Kok Chen]

 
On Monday, December 01, 2008, at 01:16PM, "Bill W4ZV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>...which is why the hybrid approach of a narrow roofing filter before the
>ADC works so well in Orion and the K3.  

Bill is correct.

Think of this this way: the clipping level of a codec does not change, but the 
noise floor of the processed passband falls.

You gain nothing anymore only after the Nyquist rate of the signal of interest 
has exceeded (think energy density) the decimated sampling rate.

73
Chen, W7AY


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[Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL]

1.  Number of K3's in the contest: I believe that many (most?)
participants using a K3 do not list their rig, so the "count" is
misleading.

2.  Be sure to observe the "caliber" of many of the entrants using the
K3.  These are not "Joe Ham" guysmost from the "top ten" boxes in
all categories.  I know that K3WW and N3RS were using K3s.  KT3Y is
using a K3.  I'm sure there are many, many others.  The GOLD STANDARD
on contesting used to be the FT1000 series, especially the D and MP.
Later versions seem to have had negative progress in contest
performance.  There is little doubt (IMHO) that the K3 is the new GOLD
STANDARD.

3.  AGC popping:  I noticed it too.  And yes, it happens on qsk when
the station I'm calling comes back to someone and ONLY after I stop
sending (not during QSK operation...at least not here).  Yes, it blows
your eardrums out...but I came to ignore it.  Yes, it would be GREAT
if Wayne would address this.  Since I am using a VERY old FW version,
I thought it was already fixed and that it was "just me"...guess not.

4.  I think that the K3 is the BEST radio (for contesting) that I have
ever used (I have two of them...and a K2), and I've been a serious,
competitive contester since I was 14 (a long time ago - hint: I have
been a member of the CQWW Contest Committee for over 30 continuous
years).  I love the complete lack of IMD on the low bands.  This radio
is a JOY to operate.

5.  Some folks talks about the "tiny rig" ergonomics.  Frankly, (a) I
don't have a problem and (b) I don't use anything during the contest
other than the VFO knob.  Well, this time I did tweak the Width
control now and then (mostly then) and I was using the XIT quite a
bit...the pileups on 20 were HUGE (due to not much propagation on
10/15) and I needed to call up/down to be heard.

I operated QRP (as usual).  717 Qs, 79 total zones, 277 total
countries, final score = 695,624.  I am thrilled to have worked 107
countries on 20m alone!  QRP DXCC in one weekend on ONE BAND.  :-)

de Doug KR2Q
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Philip Covington]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of
>> bits without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate
>> and signal bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal
>> processing gain" or "process gain".
>
> The concept of processing gain is completely different than
> blocking dynamic range.  The maximum large signal capability
> of any DAC has an absolute limit based on the largest integer
> the DAC can resolve and the DAC reference voltage. When more
> than one signal is present within the "window" (DC to maximum
> frequency) of the DAC the DAC needs to be able to handle the
> sum of the instantaneous peak (vector maximum) voltages not
> their average levels.
>
> No amount of decimation and processing will reduce the
> instantaneous peak voltage that the ADC must handle to
> prevent overload.  The clipping (overload) level results
> in distortion (IMD) or imposes an operating condition that
> must be prevented by the application of hardware AGC (gain
> reduction) ahead of the ADC (blocking).  Decimation and
> processing gain are only of value as long as he hardware
> is operating within its linear range.
>
> 73,
>
>   ... Joe, W4TV

I assume you mean ADC above and not DAC...  You are right that if you
exceed the maximum voltage level into the ADC no amount of processing
gain will change this fact.  What the processing gain does give you is
the ability to hear weak signals that are much lower than the 14 or 16
bit ADC without decimation would be capable of hearing.  The weakest
signal that can be resolved plays just as important a part in the
calculation of the blocking dynamic range of a receiver as its strong
signal handling capability - and this is true whether we are talking
about ADCs or analog receivers.

-- 
Phil Covington
Software Radio Laboratory LLC
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.srl-llc.com
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RE: [Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

The Fostex 6301B is an outstanding monitor - I spec'd and used 
a lot of them in my professional life.  However, $175 +/- each 
new and $150/pr used on eBAY makes them serious overkill for 
the K3.  

A pair of KLH S-PRO4 satellite speakers ($40/pr. at Radio Shack), 
or the Insignia IS-SP3WAY ($32/pr at BestBuy.com) are excellent 
choices at lower cost than the Radio Shack equivalent of the 
Motorola/Midland/etc. "communications speaker." 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:05 PM
> To: S Sacco; Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...
> 
> 
> Here is my favorite do it all external speaker:
> 
> http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/pro_products/6301b.shtml
> 
> A new pair would be less than the Bose units.  However this 
> design has stood the test of time
> having been on the market for 25 years.   There are a lot of 
> them out there and because of that
> they show on E-Bay quite often, and for cheap to reasonable prices.
> 
> The down side is they will not "improve"  what you are 
> listening to.  They will give a faithful
> reproduction of a horrible source.  K2's and 3's are not in 
> that category though.
> 
> 73,
> Bob
> K2TK
> 
>  
> S Sacco wrote:
> 
> This caught my eye the other day, as a potentially excellent 
> external speaker for my K3: 
> 

No chance I'll be buying it anytime soon, at THAT price.

73,
Steve NN4X



  

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Julian, G4ILO]

Vic K2VCO wrote:
> 
> Bill W4ZV wrote:
> 
>> I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow
>> caller
>> answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
>> shouldn't be there.  
> 
> That sounds a bit harsh, Bill!
> 
> 

Thank you, Vic. This elitist attitude that just because someone can send
code faster than someone else or has a bigger and more powerful station than
someone else gives them more right to use the airwaves than anyone else
makes my blood boil. This is a hobby and it is supposed to be fun. There is
no other way to enjoy a contest when you have only 100W to an attic antenna
farm. If only the serious big guns came on for a contest they'd all work
each other in the first 6 hours and then what would they do? Well I won't
waste my time giving W4ZV a point if I hear him on, that's for sure. Next I
suppose we'll be hearing that QRP stations shouldn't bother coming on for a
contest because they waste too much of people's time trying to copy them.
Perhaps I'll just put my K3 on eBay since I'm obviously unworthy of owning
it.

Just for the record:

1. I was sending at a steady 24wpm right through the contest, and I only
sent anything once, unless the other station didn't copy the first time. So
I'm sure I didn't waste that much of anyone's time. In prevoius contests I
tried matching the keyer's speed to the other station's speed, but I found
that at 24wpm people copied my call first time nearly every time, whereas
I'd get more mistakes or ask for repeats when I sent it faster.

2. I was thinking of a couple of stations that were sending (presumably) CQ
over and over. Nobody was coming back to them. If they had slowed down so I
could get their call then I would have given them a point, and who knows how
many others might too?

3. These guys were sending so fast I could not work out their calls no
matter how long i listened. It sounded just like a burst of noise to me. If
they were working a string of people who could understand them then I could
see the sense in it but what is the point calling CQ that fast if you are
getting no replies? Yes I suppose I could ask them to QRS but why bother
when I can just go and find someone else?



-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 
-- 
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RE: [Elecraft] Running an ICOM PW-1 Amp with the K3

[John E. Reiser]

Hi Tom,

I have been driving my Icom PW-1 with my K3 for nine months now without any
problems.  I use it for CW, SSB and digital modes.

I simply have a coax jumper between ANT1 on the K3 and Input 2 on the PW-1,
of course.  And PTT is accomplished by means of a shielded cable from Radio
Shack that has RCA plugs on each end.  I don't use any connection for ALC
with the K3.  However, I am very careful not to overdrive the amp.

Let me explain.  My "other" radio is an Icom 756 Pro 2.  It gets very little
use anymore, but I left it connected to Input 1 on the amp.  Besides a coax
jumper, the Pro 2 is connected to the amp with a special cable provided by
Icom.  The cable provides for PTT and ALC.  When one first sets up the amp,
one is instructed by the manual to calibrate the ALC.  This is accomplished
by means of a screwdriver adjustable potentiometer on the back of the amp.
The meter on the front panel of the amp has a switch-selectable ALC scale
with a red line mark at mid-scale.  The ALC is calibrated by adjusting the
pot such that the needle does not go past the red mark.

Two identical sets of input jacks and ALC-calibration-pots are provided on
the amp, for Input 1 and Input 2, respectively.  Before I connected the K3,
I calibrated the ALC on the Input 2 side using my Pro 2.  My thinking was
(correctly or not) that as long as I controlled the drive from the K3 so
that the ALC meter on the amp stayed below the calibrated red mark, all was
well.

Now, when I use the amp, I set the output of the K3 to 20 watts.  That gives
me between 700 and 800 watts out, as measured on my LP-100A watt meter.  The
ALC meter on the amp stays within the lower (leftmost) third of the scale.
The overdrive-protection circuits in the amp have never activated.  The
difference between 750 and 1000 watts out is negligible at the receiving
end, of course.

With the Pro 2 I used to set the drive to just give me 1K out, although I
could have pushed it to 1100 or 1200 on some bands.  It took about 25 to 30
watts of drive.  Of course, with the ALC connected, the ALC never went past
the red mark on the meter.

So, bottom line, I am able to use the PW-1 with my K3 but, without ALC, I
have to be careful.  In writing this note, I'm merely sharing my own
experience, in case it can help someone.  Others may have a better solution,
perhaps using the negative-going ALC mod to the K3.  That was beyond my
abilities to implement.

73,

John, W2GW


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Hammond
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:00 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Cc: Jerry Liley K0GUG
Subject: [Elecraft] Running an ICOM PW-1 Amp with the K3


I'm about to loan my K3 to another local ham who currently has an IC-7800
and PW-1 amplifier.

His IC-7800 has been sent in for service so it's temporarily out of
the
picture. However the PW-1 is still in play and this local is gonna want
to use it with the K3.

Is anyone running a PW-1 with their K3?  If so, please contact me a.s.a.p.
so I can exchange some info with you.  Specifically I need to know what it
took to interface the two devices and to get them to function without any
hiccups.

Appreciated.

73,

Tom Hammond   N0SS


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RE: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Bill W4ZV]

Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote:
> 
> 
>> This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of 
>> bits without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate 
>> and signal bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal 
>> processing gain" or "process gain". 
> 
> The concept of processing gain is completely different than 
> blocking dynamic range.  The maximum large signal capability 
> of any DAC has an absolute limit based on the largest integer 
> the DAC can resolve and the DAC reference voltage. When more 
> than one signal is present within the "window" (DC to maximum 
> frequency) of the DAC the DAC needs to be able to handle the 
> sum of the instantaneous peak (vector maximum) voltages not 
> their average levels.  
> 
> No amount of decimation and processing will reduce the 
> instantaneous peak voltage that the ADC must handle to 
> prevent overload.  The clipping (overload) level results 
> in distortion (IMD) or imposes an operating condition that
> must be prevented by the application of hardware AGC (gain 
> reduction) ahead of the ADC (blocking).  Decimation and 
> processing gain are only of value as long as he hardware 
> is operating within its linear range. 
> 

...which is why the hybrid approach of a narrow roofing filter before the
ADC works so well in Orion and the K3.  The narrow roofing filters limit
extremely strong signals outside the passband which would otherwise kick in
ADC protection AGC.  I don't think there's a way around the fundamental
limitation of ADC resolution in the direct conversion designs.  

Phil, on the QS-1R specifications webpage, I see BDR is specified at 125
dB...very similar to the Flex 5000's 123 dB.  I haven't seen any independent
measurements of the QS-1R yet, but hope one will be forthcoming by ARRL. 
Until SDR receivers are in the same >140 dB league of the K3, I'm not sure
the contest community will bite this apple.  When higher resolution ADCs
eventually become available at a reasonable price, I'm sure the situation
will change.

73,  Bill

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RE: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[Arie Kleingeld PA3A]

Lyle,

Thank you for your prompt response.



Slow agc or fast agc or CW is not the point. The problem holds for SSB
contesting as well.
Nor is it about band conditions.

It IS about working a S4 station in a contest after a S9+20 station. QSO
responses are quick and so is going from one QSO to another. I missed
the first letters of a weak station several beacause of too slow agc,
and had to ask for a repeat.


All I ask is that the AGC backs off and starts all over again when going
to receive after a transmission.
With all that DSP stuff that must be possible. I have confidence that,
after implementing this, the K3 will not bang my ears every time. You'll
find a way to avoid that. 
Maybe the solution is in a temporary fast response of the AGC so that
the AGC can drop down to a low S3 level in 100 ms or so, and then engage
the AGC setting again as set by the operator.  This could be analog
thinking so there probably is a more clever and simple way in DSP. 

As for modifications to the K3 SW, I think that (in my opinion
sorry) this is a more important issue that a beeping response when I
press a button on the K3.


73
Arie PA3A



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Lyle Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Verzonden: maandag 1 december 2008 3:15
Aan: Arie Kleingeld PA3A
CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Ad van Ginneken'
Onderwerp: Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission


Hello Arie!

> ... We SUSPECT that the AGC was still at the level from BEFORE the 
> transmission.

Yes, AGC is suspended during transmission, then resumes during receive. 
  The assumption is that the band hasn't changed that much in the 
milliseconds (CW QSK) to several seconds (SSB voice).

> ...the work around was setting the AGC to fast.

In general, fast AGC is most often used for CW< and slow AGC for voice 
or data operation.

73,

Lyle KK7P


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Barry N1EU wrote:


ab2tc wrote:


I am fully aware that slow AGC has its limitations in the presence of
static crashes, although the K3 does a fairly good job of not "hanging" 
on

those. All I and others are asking is that the receiver not remember the
signal strength prior to transmitting, but rather reset it to a no-signal
condition when resuming receive.



But if there's a strong signal on frequency, don't you risk blasting your
eardrums?

(not sure there's a problem with the way it is . . .)

73,
Barry N1EU


-

True, but one method to help protect your eardrums if there is a strong 
signal on frequency, and while the AGC is catching up after being reset, is 
to slice / clip the audio at a level above the normal listening level peaks 
but safely below the "blast threshold". Not a pretty solution but at least 
it is not too complicated.


73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

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RE: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of 
> bits without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate 
> and signal bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal 
> processing gain" or "process gain". 

The concept of processing gain is completely different than 
blocking dynamic range.  The maximum large signal capability 
of any DAC has an absolute limit based on the largest integer 
the DAC can resolve and the DAC reference voltage. When more 
than one signal is present within the "window" (DC to maximum 
frequency) of the DAC the DAC needs to be able to handle the 
sum of the instantaneous peak (vector maximum) voltages not 
their average levels.  

No amount of decimation and processing will reduce the 
instantaneous peak voltage that the ADC must handle to 
prevent overload.  The clipping (overload) level results 
in distortion (IMD) or imposes an operating condition that
must be prevented by the application of hardware AGC (gain 
reduction) ahead of the ADC (blocking).  Decimation and 
processing gain are only of value as long as he hardware 
is operating within its linear range. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philip 
> Covington
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:21 PM
> To: Bill W4ZV
> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Bill W4ZV 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Alan Bloom wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 06:35, ab2tc wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF 
> spectrum 
> >>> digitized at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am 
> >>> *very* skeptical. Although the Perseus (with that architecture) 
> >>> receiver fares relatively well
> >>> in the recent ARRL test,
> >>
> >> It compares well for third-order intermodulation 
> distortion, but not 
> >> for blocking dynamic range.  The A/D converter is very 
> linear within 
> >> its range, so you can get some fantastic TOI (third-order 
> intercept) 
> >> numbers if you measure with signals near the top of the 
> ADC range.  
> >> However the ADC full-scale signal level is less than a 
> conventional 
> >> mixer can handle.
> >>
> >
> > Correct.  I believe the Perseus only has a 14-bit ADC so it's more 
> > limited in dynamic range than the 24-bit ADCs commonly used 
> by other 
> > SDR rigs.  Its dynamic range may be OK for IMD but today's 
> SDRs cannot 
> > approach the BDR of rigs like the K3 until even higher 
> resolution ADCs 
> > become available.
> >
> > I believe the best BDR I've seen for any SDR is the Flex 
> 5000, which 
> > has just over 120 dB...the K3 is better by about 20 dB.
> >
> > 73,  Bill  W4ZV
> >
> > P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest 
> soapbox so 
> > far? ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real 
> > contesters).
> 
> This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of 
> bits without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate 
> and signal bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal 
> processing gain" or "process gain".  A SDR such as the 
> Perseus with a 14 bit ADC gains dynamic range by the process 
> of decimation/filtering.  If a 14 bit ADC is sampling at 80 
> MSPS and you are decimating to common filter bandwidths used 
> for CW signals, ex. 500 Hz, there is an increase of dynamic 
> range by 10 log(80e6/500) = 52 dB.  The 14 bit ADC used in 
> Perseus is rated at ~77 dB SNR at 15 MHz.  With decimation 
> the dynamic range is increased to approx. 77 dB + 52 dB = 129 dB.
> 
> Another example is the QS1R's 16 bit ADC rated at ~77 dB SNR 
> at 30 MHz.  The ADC samples at 125 MSPS.  10 log(125e6/500) = 
> 54 dB, so dynamic range after decimation is approx. 77 dB + 
> 54 dB = 131 dB.
> 
> Many of the better 24 bit audio ADCs used in SDRs are capable 
> of 120 - 124 dB of dynamic range at *best*.  I believe the 
> K3's PCM1804 24 bit ADC is rated at 112 dB SNR.  The AK5394A 
> 24 bit ADC used in the Flex-5000 series radios has a rated 
> SNR of 123 dB.  For ADCs the SNR is pretty much the same as 
> dynamic range.
> 
> 73 Phil N8VB
> -- 
> Phil Covington
> Software Radio Laboratory LLC
> Columbus, Ohio
> http://www.srl-llc.com ___
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[GM0ELP]

Hi All,
I was active as MM3T at the weekend with K3 #1293 and K2 #4688, Acom 1000,
Doublet 160/80, 1/4 GP 40 and Cobweb 20,15 and 10m. The last 3 CQWW CW I've
been using an FT1000MP MkV with inrad 4K roof filter (fully loaded) so was
keen to give the K3 the try for the first time.

My K3 has 400/1k roofing filters installed. It needed the 400 engaged on all
but 15 and 10m which were quiet here in GM and so the 1k came in to good
use. I had intended to use Dual PB but forgot all about it.

I had one problem with the K3 on top band when the rx went quiet and tx
power disappeared in a kind of intermittent way just after transmitting. It
took me a while to realise it wasn't the tuner/coax/LPF/Linear connections
and seemed to be located in the back panel audio connections area. Putting
my hand down the back of the transceiver and giving the connections a wiggle
seemed to bring the radio back to life. At one stage I power cycled the K3
and got an ERR PLL message or something on the display. This only happened
when I was on top band.

I used fast AGC with AGC threshold 5 and AGC slope 10 for high bands and 8/8
for low bands respectively. I changed these settings a number of times
during the contest and ended up with several favourites dependant on
band/noise. I was raising the threshold in line with rising noise levels and
adjusting the slope downward when dealing with pile ups which helped my
brain separate the callers by adding sound level difference. Using the PF1
and PF2 keys for threshold and slope worked a treat.

I had been using a K1EL keyer with the MkV in the past and decided to
simplify things this year with the K3 by using DTR-RTS for key-ptt. This
coupled with WinTest contest software worked flawlessly (even with open wire
feeder in the shack).

I allowed condx to determine my sending speed, if things got hectic whilst
running, my speed went up and when trying to bag a weak one on a noisy band
my speed went down. I did miss the winkey variable pot when working slow
stations, but just had to hope they had been listening to me enough to get
the call right before calling. I get more angry with inefficient exchange
(mindlessly repeating things like my call) rather than slow speed callers.
The worst combo when working a pile up is a slow caller who thinks data type
exchanges are the norm, as 9/10 times this one station will cause someone
else to steal your frequency whilst you are waiting for his exchange to
finish.

The EU really is a zoo during CQWW CW and I've tried using lesser radios in
the past and given in. I did 24hrs with the K3 and still love it despite the
top band band failure. A fully loaded MkV is a hard act to follow, but I did
spend $6000 (ROB) on it and then had to install an inrad roof and do key
click mods to get it to work properly.

Thanks to all who worked me!

Doug GM0ELP (MM3T)
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[Elecraft] Re: K3 and CQWW

[Dick Dievendorff]

Julian, G4ILO wrote:

 

A couple of stations lost out on a point from me because they were sending
so fast that neither the K3 nor I could copy them. Why do people do this?
Surely the number of contacts lost because people like me who are not CW
wizards just can't copy them must negate the benefit of any time saved?
These stations were repeatedly calling CQ and if I could have read them we
could have easily had a contact.

 

Julian:

 

I tend to send more quickly when I perceive a number of callers (who might
be impatient and move on if I'm not working the pileup quickly) and slow
down when there are few(er) callers.  If no one is answering, I send CQ at
24-28 WPM, and if someone calls me much more slowly than that I'll wind it
right down to their speed.  However if there's a crowd, I'm more likely to
keep my CW speed up, it keeps things moving.

 

The contest station's objective is to maximize rate/score, not to be "fair".
If there are plenty of callers, then the speed should be run up to work as
many people as possible during the sometimes too brief opening to any
particular area.   I had very few common daylight minutes between W7 and
Europe (single band 20). During that time I had to find as many mults as
possible and also run as many European QSOs as I could.  I called quickly.  

 

I can copy callsigns much more quickly than I can receive CW in a
conversation. I've practiced this a lot.  MorseRunner is a good training
tool for this. I did have to listen to 5K0T a while to figure out whether it
was HK0T or 5K0T.  I still remember encountering 5H3TW in a CQWW contest
when I lived in England and I had to listen to him for many minutes before I
felt that I had the call.  

 

At some points in the contest I'm happy to work anyone, at any speed, and
will slow down to the caller's speed.  If I have a group calling, I return
the call of the station whose complete callsign I get first.  Usually that's
someone loud and quick with good timing.   The slower stations will wait
until I've run out of the quick ones.   Sometimes they move on.

 

A real problem with working slow stations (particularly if conditions are
poor) is that one can lose one's run frequency while going after fills.  In
some contests like Sweepstakes with an involved exchange, you sometimes have
to just ignore a caller who is weak enough that you just know that you won't
get the exchange reliably, and you don't want to risk losing the run
frequency to try.

 

I agree with you that if a station is CQing with no callers and doesn't slow
down he's probably behaving in a manner that doesn't maximize his score.
However when a crowd is there, the best strategy for maximizing score is to
work people as quickly as you can.  

 

I can work people at much higher speed than I can copy normal CW. They send
their call repeatedly, and it's short.  When I'm running, I don't send
faster than I can receive. When I'm S&Ping, I send at the speed of the
station I'm working, even if I really can't copy that quickly normally.

 

Dick, K6KR (W7RN in CQWW CW)

 

 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Mark KN7T]

I worked 18 hours of the contest, 435 Qs, 178 mults, final score of 194,910.

The K3 performed flawlessly using it in conjunction with an Icom IC-2KL and
AT-500.

My biggest gripe is the number of long tuner-uppers on DX calling
frequencies - there's no excuse for it.  If you can afford a station, you
can afford a dummy load - plain and simple.

Even with the narrow filtering on my K3, I was unable at times to filter QRM
from the passband - some stations like to tuck right in underneath you if
you're calling CQ, often within a few hundred hertz of where you are -
annoying to say the least, not to mention the difficulty in filtering them
out even with the narrowest of filters.  I won't mention names or point
fingers but I heard a couple of well known contesting "superstations"
employing these tactics.  
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-and-CQWW-tp1597892p1600532.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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RE: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Yes, The ICE 419B requires pull to ground so the W9XT or 
Top Ten decoder will work directly.  With four 2.2 - 4.7K 
pull-up resistors, the W9XT decoder is the "low cost" 
solution. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 
  

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Faber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:11 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'John Unger'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface
> 
> 
> The TT Yaesu band decoder works fine.
>   73, andy, ae6y
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'John Unger'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Elecraft Reflector'" 
> 
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 2:48 PM
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface
> 
> 
> >
> > You need some kind of band decoder.  However, the W9XT 
> board (BCD to 
> > one of 9) will do the job nicely with the proper relay drivers.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> >   ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Unger
> >> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:09 AM
> >> To: Elecraft Reflector
> >> Subject: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface
> >>
> >>
> >> I am in the process of connecting my K3 to a Model 419 ICE 
> bandpass 
> >> filter. Does anyone have a circuit or schematic of how they
> >> interfaced this filter
> >> with the outputs on the ACC port on the K3, or do I need a 
> full-blown
> >> solution like the KRC2 band decoder?
> >>
> >> tnx es 73 - John, W4AU
> >>
> >
> > ___
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> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> > 
> 
> 

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RE: [Elecraft] K3 - CW Sidetone in Dual Receive

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> >Agreed, keep the sidetone with the tx

Which puts it in the RIGHT ear when split and both or 
the LEFT ear when transceive.  The current "both ears" 
makes the most sense unless the firmware is modified 
to move the sidetone/monitor based on SUB/SPLIT status. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - CW Sidetone in Dual Receive
> 
> 
> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:50:33 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >Agreed, keep the sidetone with the tx
> 
> Yes
> 
> Jim K9YC
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[Paul Christensen]

I am fully aware that slow AGC has its limitations in the presence of 
static

crashes, although the K3 does a fairly good job of not "hanging" on those.
All I and others are asking is that the receiver not remember the signal
strength prior to transmitting, but rather reset it to a no-signal 
condition

when resuming receive.


So that we can be subject to the full AGC gain (the no-signal condx) between 
T/R transmissions in the presence of strong signals?  Even with ample fast 
attack time, that does not seem like a pleasant listening experience.


Paul, W9AC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Philip Covington]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Bill W4ZV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Alan Bloom wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 06:35, ab2tc wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF spectrum
>>> digitized
>>> at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am *very* skeptical.
>>> Although the Perseus (with that architecture) receiver fares relatively
>>> well
>>> in the recent ARRL test,
>>
>> It compares well for third-order intermodulation distortion, but not for
>> blocking dynamic range.  The A/D converter is very linear within its
>> range, so you can get some fantastic TOI (third-order intercept) numbers
>> if you measure with signals near the top of the ADC range.  However the
>> ADC full-scale signal level is less than a conventional mixer can
>> handle.
>>
>
> Correct.  I believe the Perseus only has a 14-bit ADC so it's more limited
> in dynamic range than the 24-bit ADCs commonly used by other SDR rigs.  Its
> dynamic range may be OK for IMD but today's SDRs cannot approach the BDR of
> rigs like the K3 until even higher resolution ADCs become available.
>
> I believe the best BDR I've seen for any SDR is the Flex 5000, which has
> just over 120 dB...the K3 is better by about 20 dB.
>
> 73,  Bill  W4ZV
>
> P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest soapbox so far?
> ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real contesters).

This is not correct.  You can't just compare the number of bits
without taking into consideration the ADC sampling rate and signal
bandwidth.  Please see the concept of "signal processing gain" or
"process gain".  A SDR such as the Perseus with a 14 bit ADC gains
dynamic range by the process of decimation/filtering.  If a 14 bit ADC
is sampling at 80 MSPS and you are decimating to common filter
bandwidths used for CW signals, ex. 500 Hz, there is an increase of
dynamic range by 10 log(80e6/500) = 52 dB.  The 14 bit ADC used in
Perseus is rated at ~77 dB SNR at 15 MHz.  With decimation the dynamic
range is increased to approx. 77 dB + 52 dB = 129 dB.

Another example is the QS1R's 16 bit ADC rated at ~77 dB SNR at 30
MHz.  The ADC samples at 125 MSPS.  10 log(125e6/500) = 54 dB, so
dynamic range after decimation is approx. 77 dB + 54 dB = 131 dB.

Many of the better 24 bit audio ADCs used in SDRs are capable of 120 -
124 dB of dynamic range at *best*.  I believe the K3's PCM1804 24 bit
ADC is rated at 112 dB SNR.  The AK5394A 24 bit ADC used in the
Flex-5000 series radios has a rated SNR of 123 dB.  For ADCs the SNR
is pretty much the same as dynamic range.

73 Phil N8VB
-- 
Phil Covington
Software Radio Laboratory LLC
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.srl-llc.com
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Re: [Elecraft] Power Amps and AGC

[Paul Christensen]

Your research is not complete, if you actually meant ALC. Yaesu's Quadra 
uses ALC as an emergency shutdown method to protect the amp in emergency 
situations. It  is REQUIRED.


That's a poor RF design strategy.  If a SS amp is so sensitive to input RF 
drive level that it requires feedback from the exciter (of all brands) to 
protect itself, then the amp should also be smart enough -- and fast 
enough --to know when it's being overdriven.


Think about it.  Yaesu is relying on a complete unknown from a transceiver. 
While they specify the use of ALC from the transceiver for use with their 
Quadra amp, they have no idea about "Brand X transceiver's" ALC response 
time.  A ca.1969 Heathkit HW-100 has an ALC circuit for connection to an 
external amp.  Are we to assume that a 40 year-old transceiver will have 
adequate ALC dynamics as do some (but not all) of the modern transceivers?


The only time that ALC could possibly make any sense is to use a like-brand 
amp and transceiver (e.g., Yaesu FT-2KD with the Quadra).  This allows a 
manufacturer of both the rig and amp to satisfy the proper ALC "meet me 
point."


Paul, W9AC





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Re: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface

[Andy Faber]

The TT Yaesu band decoder works fine.
 73, andy, ae6y
- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'John Unger'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Elecraft Reflector'" 


Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface




You need some kind of band decoder.  However, the W9XT board
(BCD to one of 9) will do the job nicely with the proper
relay drivers.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Unger
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:09 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface


I am in the process of connecting my K3 to a Model 419 ICE
bandpass filter.
Does anyone have a circuit or schematic of how they
interfaced this filter
with the outputs on the ACC port on the K3, or do I need a full-blown
solution like the KRC2 band decoder?

tnx es 73 - John, W4AU



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Re: [Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...

[Bob]

Here is my favorite do it all external speaker:

http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/pro_products/6301b.shtml

A new pair would be less than the Bose units.  However this design has
stood the test of time
having been on the market for 25 years.   There are a lot of them out
there and because of that
they show on E-Bay quite often, and for cheap to reasonable prices.

The down side is they will not "improve"  what you are listening to. 
They will give a faithful
reproduction of a horrible source.  K2's and 3's are not in that
category though.    

73,
Bob
K2TK

 
S Sacco wrote:
This caught my eye the other day, as a potentially
excellent external speaker for my K3: >
  
No chance I'll be buying it anytime soon, at THAT price.
  
73,
Steve NN4X
  
  

  



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 popping noise during QSK

[Joe Planisky]

Hmmm.  I wonder if this could be the other side of the AGC issue also  
being discussed currently?  That is, some folks are complaining that  
the AGC gain on key up is the same as it was on key down, so if a  
strong signal was present at key down, the receiver is unexpectedly  
deaf at key up.


But what if the opposite condition was present?  Weak or no signal  
present at key down and strong signal present at key up.  Might that  
result in an unexpected pop on key up as the AGC kicks in?


Just idle speculation.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On Dec 1, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:


Julius Fazekas wrote:

I noticed a phenomenon that was irritating during CQWW with my K3.
When a loud signal would be sending as I was transmitting in QSK a  
loud pop would occur

from time to time.
This may be a simple setting issue. Any thoughts?
The only bad thing I can say about the K3 is that I can still hear  
more than I was able

to work ;o)


QSK artifacts exist when there are loud signals or noise. Wayne  
promised that he would look at this when he had some time :-)

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA

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Re: [Elecraft] Birdie on 6m with the RX port selected?

[Lance Collister]

Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:

Hello,

I just noticed something peculiar and I wonder if anyone else has 
noticed it, and/or anyone can suggest a solution.  I seem to have an 
unstable birdie on 50.126 when I select the RX ANT port (either with the 
Elecraft preamp, or my normal preamp here, which is an LNA CA50-T).  It 
is gone when I receive with a preamp going into the main antenna port.  
The unstable birdie does not change when I rotate the antenna, which 
leads me to believe it is some strange cndx in the radio itself.  Any 
ideas on how to remove it (other than listen through the main XMIT/RECV 
antenna port)?  That is about the worst spot in the 6m band to have a 
birdie :-( TNX and 73, Lance


Found the problem ;-) - Senior moment operator error :-(  I found that I had 
inadvertently switched the 6m relays to enable transceive rather than provide a 
separate receive line with the dedicated external preamp.  The bottom line is that 
the birdies were appearing because there was no antenna connected.  Once things 
were switched back to normal, everything worked FB again ;-)


Getting closer to successfully incorporating the K3 into the station here - HI! 
Best wishes to all for a joyous holiday season!  VY 73, Lance


--
Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT  59834  USA
QTH: DN27UB
TEL: (406) 626-5728   URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
2m DXCC #11, 6m DXCC #815


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Re: [Elecraft] Power Amps and AGC

[Jerry Flanders]

Your research is not complete, if you actually meant ALC. Yaesu's 
Quadra uses ALC as an emergency shutdown method to protect the amp in 
emergency situations. It  is REQUIRED.


I once had a flakey antenna coax open up when running full 1500 watts 
on RTTY with an AL-1200 and blew up the output circuit. I was not 
using ALC then. I use the Quadra now, and insist on using ALC per 
Yaesu's recommendation.


You probably could not manually shut down drive fast enough in an 
emergency to save the SS output devices if you were not using the 
ALC. Tubes maybe. Either way, why risk it?


I agree that we shouldn't be trying to regulate power levels this way 
- but as an emergency protective measure, it can save your butt.


Jerry W4UK

At 01:43 PM 12/1/2008, Jim Brown wrote:
Modern power amps (built after about 1975) do NOT need AGC -- in 
fact, they often create lots of distortion (splatter, clicks, 
sideband noise) when you use AGC. The RIGHT way to control power 
(drive) is to use the power control on the rig that you're using to 
drive it. Simply bring up the power on the transceiver until you 
reach the desired power from the amplifier.


While many power amps include an AGC line, their manuals often tell 
you not to use it. The manuals for my Ten Tec amps (Titan 425, 
Hercules I, Hercules II) specifically tell you NOT to use AGC.


73,

Jim K9YC

--Original Message Text---
From: Monty Shultes
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:02:50 -0500

To get the ALC signal from the 15 pin DIN plug I was hoping to use a 
VGA cable, cut one end off, and wire it up accordingly.



__


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[Bill W4ZV]

ab2tc wrote:
> 
> I am fully aware that slow AGC has its limitations in the presence of
> static crashes
> 

...and rapid QSB
...and very strong signals on top of weak ones (i.e. DX pileups)

Other than that, slow AGC works fine!  But if you no QRN bursts, no QSB and
no large variations in signal strengths, then you probably don't even need
AGC. 

73,  Bill


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-RX-AGC-right-after-a-transmission-tp1596220p1600242.html
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[Elecraft] CQWW

[Gerd Schweidler]

K3 still in the box - K1 QRP 5W gave me a great weekend SOSB 20m. Tnx
for pulling me out, hi.

73 Gerd  OE3GSA


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[Barry N1EU]

ab2tc wrote:
> 
> I am fully aware that slow AGC has its limitations in the presence of
> static crashes, although the K3 does a fairly good job of not "hanging" on
> those. All I and others are asking is that the receiver not remember the
> signal strength prior to transmitting, but rather reset it to a no-signal
> condition when resuming receive. 
> 

But if there's a strong signal on frequency, don't you risk blasting your
eardrums?  

(not sure there's a problem with the way it is . . .)

73,
Barry N1EU

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-RX-AGC-right-after-a-transmission-tp1596220p1600193.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[ab2tc]

Hi,

I am fully aware that slow AGC has its limitations in the presence of static
crashes, although the K3 does a fairly good job of not "hanging" on those.
All I and others are asking is that the receiver not remember the signal
strength prior to transmitting, but rather reset it to a no-signal condition
when resuming receive. This is not asking the impossible.



Bill W4ZV wrote:
> 
> 
> I believe you're asking the AGC to do something it cannot do.  I never use
> Slow AGC, even on SSB.  The one situation I might is if I were ragchewing
> on SSB.  Otherwise you'll have problems with rapid QSB or with strong
> stations on top of a weak DX signal in a pileup.  There's simply NO way
> Slow AGC can handle those situations...period.  I even found it necessary
> to turn my AGC off in the contest this weekend when we had strong
> lightning crashes and I was trying to copy noise floor JAs on 160.  Even
> Fast AGC (set to the 200 dB/s maximum) could not handle that situation.
> 
> 73,  Bill
> 
> 


-
AB2TC - Knut
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[Elecraft] Potentially Excellent External Speakers...

[S Sacco]

This caught my eye the other day, as a potentially excellent external
speaker for my K3: <
http://www.bose.com/controller?event=DTC_LINKS_TARGET_EVENT&DTCLinkID=7585&src=CMM
>

No chance I'll be buying it anytime soon, at THAT price.

73,
Steve NN4X
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Timothy . Urban]

FYI, I worked CQ WW 2008 (as a pedestrian) with K3 #1278 from Maryland.

Never appreciated how good the K3"s QSK is until I had to turn it off to 
use an outboard amplifier. 

Great receiver, now I just need an antenna higher than 17 ft off the 
ground :)

73

Tim
N5IIT


 



"Jim Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12/01/2008 01:12 PM

To
"elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
cc

Subject
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW






On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:19:52 -0800 (PST), Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>A couple of stations lost out on a point from me because they were 
sending
>so fast that neither the K3 nor I could copy them. Why do people do this?
>Surely the number of contacts lost because people like me who are not CW
>wizards just can't copy them must negate the benefit of any time saved?

Some of the worst offenders are those with big stations who fail to 
realize 
that many of those stations they would like to work are hearing them in 
the 
noise, or with propagation flutter, and that QRQ is defeating them. The 
guy 
who had D4B was an example (not D4C). A guy with all dits in his call, or 
an unusual prefix should be sending slower, not faster. I consider them 
LIDS! 

BTW -- I had my K3/KRX3 on for 29 hours of CQWW, and it sure is sweet. 400 

Hz filters in both RX. 

Interesting propagation from several locations on 20M caused very strong 
echoes that ran characters together to the point that I couldn't copy them 

at all. One example was about 1800Z Sunday for signals from anywhere NE 
USA 
and eastern Canada (that is, W1, W2, W3, VE1, VE2, VE3). Around 2200Z I 
was 
hearing it on a few JA stations. I'm about 70 miles S of San Francisco and 

use wire dipoles, so I don't have directivity to protect me from secondary 

arrivals. I also used to hear this in Chicago on EU stations around 1500Z, 

also with wire dipoles. I suspect that the mechanism for this might be a 
fairly strong long path signal favored by their beam and a direct path to 
me off the back of their beam. 

73,

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Bill W4ZV]

David Cutter wrote:
> 
> Simple solution:  if calling at high speed gets reduced contacts, slow
> down, 
> if not, carry on.  I've been on both ends of this debate.
> 

So have I.  I often reduce my speed on the second day of a contest and I
ALWAYS reduce my speed to that of any station calling me.  However, if
you're a rare station like 4L0A, you're always going to have a multitude of
stations calling.  Are you going to answer one calling you at 15 WPM or will
you answer the guy who makes one crisp call at 35 WPM?  The answer is
obvious.  Wash and repeat the cycle...because the DX station wants to make
as many QSOs as possible rather than slowing down for pedestrians.

BTW, someone mentioned D4B (home call 4L5A).  Whoever was operating 4L0A
sounded exactly like his style.

73,  Bill  W4ZV

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[Elecraft] CQ WW DX CW

[Julius Fazekas]

http://www.eskimo.com/~mwdink/3830/CQWW%20CW%20Soapbox%20Dec%201%202008.txt

Many K2s and K3s noted in these 3830 postings...

Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
TnQP http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2/100 #3311
Elecraft K2/100 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - CW Sidetone in Dual Receive

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:50:33 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Agreed, keep the sidetone with the tx

Yes

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 changing RX filter during transmit

[Jim Brown]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:12:54 -0800, Vic K2VCO wrote:

>> Both Ad PA8AD and I repeatedly wanted to change the filter setting
>> during the last transmission of the QSO (the "TU  PI4D"), anticipating
>> the next QSO.
>> During transmission the RX filter controls are locked.
>>  
>> So, can the filter controls be unlocked please. This will be more
>> pleasant for operating.

YES! 

Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[Bill W4ZV]

ab2tc wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have this problem also and I have reported it before. It is *very*
> annoying when you are trying to get through a pileup. My AGC is in the
> slow mode. I am sure it would be no problem if it were set to fast. All we
> are asking for is for the AGC be reset to a no-signal condition when
> resuming reception after a transmission. I am sure that would solve the
> problem completely.
> 

I believe you're asking the AGC to do something it cannot do.  I never use
Slow AGC, even on SSB.  The one situation I might is if I were ragchewing on
SSB.  Otherwise you'll have problems with rapid QSB or with strong stations
on top of a weak DX signal in a pileup.  There's simply NO way Slow AGC can
handle those situations...period.  I even found it necessary to turn my AGC
off in the contest this weekend when we had strong lightning crashes and I
was trying to copy noise floor JAs on 160.  Even Fast AGC (set to the 200
dB/s maximum) could not handle that situation.

73,  Bill

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[Elecraft] Power Amps and AGC

[Jim Brown]

Modern power amps (built after about 1975) do NOT need AGC -- in 
fact, they often create lots of distortion (splatter, clicks, 
sideband noise) when you use AGC. The RIGHT way to control power 
(drive) is to use the power control on the rig that you're using to 
drive it. Simply bring up the power on the transceiver until you 
reach the desired power from the amplifier. 

While many power amps include an AGC line, their manuals often tell 
you not to use it. The manuals for my Ten Tec amps (Titan 425, 
Hercules I, Hercules II) specifically tell you NOT to use AGC. 

73,

Jim K9YC

--Original Message Text---
From: Monty Shultes
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:02:50 -0500

To get the ALC signal from the 15 pin DIN plug I was hoping to use a VGA 
cable, cut one end off, and wire it up accordingly. 



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[David Cutter]

Simple solution:  if calling at high speed gets reduced contacts, slow down, 
if not, carry on.  I've been on both ends of this debate.


David
G3UNA





Vic K2VCO wrote:


Bill W4ZV wrote:

If you were answered 4L0A at 15-18 WPM, he would have completed 2 QSOs 
by

the time you finished signing your call twice!  And you would have been
QRMing everyone else in the process.  He was sending at 32-34 WPM and 
his

canned exchange sped up to ~50 WPM (i.e. "ENN AU" for 599 21).  And this
was
on 160 meters no less!

I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow
caller
answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
shouldn't be there.


That sounds a bit harsh, Bill!



It was meant to be because I heard way too much of this the past 48 hours.
Guys calling far too long (or slowly) thinking that the name of the game 
is

"who can call the longest".  Meanwhile the DX station works stations that
can hear him through the continuous callers.

73,  Bill



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:16:20 -0800 (PST), Bill W4ZV wrote:

>It was meant to be because I heard way too much of this the past 48 hours. 
>Guys calling far too long (or slowly) thinking that the name of the game is
>"who can call the longest".  

YES! The worst offenders were calling while the DX was obviously working 
someone else. I was hearing a bunch of EU and Caribbean DX stations loud on 
160, but couldn't get through the continuous wall of east coast and midwest 
stations calling them (I'm talking HOURS). This isn't limited to contests 
either. I'm sorry, but this stuff about 160M being "the gentlemen's band" is 
a bunch of hooey.  

73,

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Bill W4ZV]

Alan Bloom wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 06:35, ab2tc wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF spectrum
>> digitized
>> at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am *very* skeptical.
>> Although the Perseus (with that architecture) receiver fares relatively
>> well
>> in the recent ARRL test, 
> 
> It compares well for third-order intermodulation distortion, but not for
> blocking dynamic range.  The A/D converter is very linear within its
> range, so you can get some fantastic TOI (third-order intercept) numbers
> if you measure with signals near the top of the ADC range.  However the
> ADC full-scale signal level is less than a conventional mixer can
> handle.
> 

Correct.  I believe the Perseus only has a 14-bit ADC so it's more limited
in dynamic range than the 24-bit ADCs commonly used by other SDR rigs.  Its
dynamic range may be OK for IMD but today's SDRs cannot approach the BDR of
rigs like the K3 until even higher resolution ADCs become available.

I believe the best BDR I've seen for any SDR is the Flex 5000, which has
just over 120 dB...the K3 is better by about 20 dB.

73,  Bill  W4ZV

P.S.  How many hits for "1000 " or "5000 " in the contest soapbox so far? 
ZERO.  (Which says something about SDRs in use by real contesters).

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:52:48 -0500, Gary Smith wrote:

>The key out from the Titan goes to the TX EN of the Omni.
>The Key in from the Titan goes to the TX out of the Omni.
>CW key goes to the Transceiver Key jack

I have three 425s, and have used them in contesting for years using 
this arrangement, which was a way of doing QSK with virtually any 
rig (the 425 was designed before 1980). 

You do NOT need to do this with the K3 -- the K3 has a built in TX 
delay (adjustable in CONFIG) so that the TX/RX relay in the amp has 
time to switch. So simply set the 425 in PTT mode and feed it the 
amp keying line from the K3. I'm conservative, so I set the delay 
for 12ms to give the relay plenty of time to switch. The default is 
8ms. 

BTW -- the FT1000MP and others in that family also have the delay 
built in, so you can use them that way too. 

My 425s drive to full power with around 30-40 watts, depending on 
the band, so the K3 is loafing. Which also means that the power 
supply is only pulling around 10A on transmit. 

73,

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Bill W4ZV]

Vic K2VCO wrote:
> 
> Bill W4ZV wrote:
> 
>> If you were answered 4L0A at 15-18 WPM, he would have completed 2 QSOs by
>> the time you finished signing your call twice!  And you would have been
>> QRMing everyone else in the process.  He was sending at 32-34 WPM and his
>> canned exchange sped up to ~50 WPM (i.e. "ENN AU" for 599 21).  And this
>> was
>> on 160 meters no less!  
>> 
>> I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow
>> caller
>> answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
>> shouldn't be there.  
> 
> That sounds a bit harsh, Bill!
> 

It was meant to be because I heard way too much of this the past 48 hours. 
Guys calling far too long (or slowly) thinking that the name of the game is
"who can call the longest".  Meanwhile the DX station works stations that
can hear him through the continuous callers.

73,  Bill



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 popping noise during QSK

[Julius Fazekas]

Thanks Vic!

I had suspected that I wasn't the first to notice it, but haven't been 
following the reflector very closely for a while.

Hope to catch you (and anyone else) in ARRL 160 this weekend. The K3 hears real 
good ;o)

73 & GL,

Julius


Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
TnQP http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2/100 #3311
Elecraft K2/100 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366


--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Vic K2VCO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From: Vic K2VCO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 popping noise during QSK
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" 
> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 12:23 PM
> Julius Fazekas wrote:
> > I noticed a phenomenon that was irritating during CQWW
> with my K3.
> > 
> > When a loud signal would be sending as I was
> transmitting in QSK a loud pop would occur
> > from time to time.
> > 
> > This may be a simple setting issue. Any thoughts?
> > 
> > The only bad thing I can say about the K3 is that I
> can still hear more than I was able
> > to work ;o)
> 
> QSK artifacts exist when there are loud signals or noise.
> Wayne promised that he would look at this when he had some
> time :-)
> -- 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Jim Brown]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:19:52 -0800 (PST), Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>A couple of stations lost out on a point from me because they were sending
>so fast that neither the K3 nor I could copy them. Why do people do this?
>Surely the number of contacts lost because people like me who are not CW
>wizards just can't copy them must negate the benefit of any time saved?

Some of the worst offenders are those with big stations who fail to realize 
that many of those stations they would like to work are hearing them in the 
noise, or with propagation flutter, and that QRQ is defeating them. The guy 
who had D4B was an example (not D4C). A guy with all dits in his call, or 
an unusual prefix should be sending slower, not faster. I consider them 
LIDS! 

BTW -- I had my K3/KRX3 on for 29 hours of CQWW, and it sure is sweet. 400 
Hz filters in both RX. 

Interesting propagation from several locations on 20M caused very strong 
echoes that ran characters together to the point that I couldn't copy them 
at all. One example was about 1800Z Sunday for signals from anywhere NE USA 
and eastern Canada (that is, W1, W2, W3, VE1, VE2, VE3). Around 2200Z I was 
hearing it on a few JA stations. I'm about 70 miles S of San Francisco and 
use wire dipoles, so I don't have directivity to protect me from secondary 
arrivals. I also used to hear this in Chicago on EU stations around 1500Z, 
also with wire dipoles. I suspect that the mechanism for this might be a 
fairly strong long path signal favored by their beam and a direct path to 
me off the back of their beam. 

73,

Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3s in CQ WW CW

[Tony Fegan VE3QF]

Search on "K3 " rather than "K3" and that eliminates the callsigns etc.

73
Tony Fegan VE3QF

Bill W4ZV wrote:


If you want to read the comments, look at the soapbox summary below and use
Edit>Find "K3" in your browser.  You'll have to skip over the other K3 hits
(like K3LR) but just keep clicking Next until you see a genuine K3 mention.

http://www.eskimo.com/~mwdink/3830/CQWW%20CW%20Soapbox%20Dec%201%202008.txt

This soapbox will be updated from time to time so watch for later dates
under CQWW CW on the following page:

http://www.eskimo.com/~mwdink/3830/

73,  Bill  W4ZV


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Vic K2VCO]

Bill W4ZV wrote:


If you were answered 4L0A at 15-18 WPM, he would have completed 2 QSOs by
the time you finished signing your call twice!  And you would have been
QRMing everyone else in the process.  He was sending at 32-34 WPM and his
canned exchange sped up to ~50 WPM (i.e. "ENN AU" for 599 21).  And this was
on 160 meters no less!  


I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow caller
answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
shouldn't be there.  


That sounds a bit harsh, Bill!

The best thing to do is just to listen to the guy for a while. He is repeating the same 
thing over and over -- especially in this contest -- and ultimately you will get it. This 
is good practice; after a while you get used to it and will be able to get the calls and 
zone the first or second time.


It's a lot harder to copy traffic at high speed than to pick out a call that is being sent 
over and over.

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Bill W4ZV]

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> 
> Julian G4ILO wrote:
> 
> A couple of stations lost out on a point from me because they were sending
> so fast that neither the K3 nor I could copy them. Why do people do this?
> Surely the number of contacts lost because people like me who are not CW
> wizards just can't copy them must negate the benefit of any time saved?
> These stations were repeatedly calling CQ and if I could have read them we
> could have easily had a contact.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> That's exactly why most commercial CW circuits strictly forbade high speed
> operation, often enforcing a 15 to 18 wpm maximum speed rule. Moderate
> speeds moves information faster than higher speeds, especially when a
> variety of stations are in contact such as traffic handling between ships
> and shore stations. 
> 
> I assume they didn't respond to a "QRS" from you...
> 
> Ron AC7AC
> 

If you were answered 4L0A at 15-18 WPM, he would have completed 2 QSOs by
the time you finished signing your call twice!  And you would have been
QRMing everyone else in the process.  He was sending at 32-34 WPM and his
canned exchange sped up to ~50 WPM (i.e. "ENN AU" for 599 21).  And this was
on 160 meters no less!  

I always slow down to the speed of guys that call me but a very slow caller
answering a speedy op in a big pileup is simply a QRM generator who
shouldn't be there.  

73,  Bill  W4ZV

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[Elecraft] K3s in CQ WW CW

[Bill W4ZV]

I counted ~25 different stations mentioned K3s in the CQWW (several had
multiple units).  One was DL6FBL at SV9CVY using a TS-850 and lamenting that
his K3 was not back from the VK9DWX expedition yet.  :-)  If he had the K3
maybe he would have heard me on 160!  (I must have spent 30 minutes calling
with no success).  :-(

If you want to read the comments, look at the soapbox summary below and use
Edit>Find "K3" in your browser.  You'll have to skip over the other K3 hits
(like K3LR) but just keep clicking Next until you see a genuine K3 mention.

http://www.eskimo.com/~mwdink/3830/CQWW%20CW%20Soapbox%20Dec%201%202008.txt

This soapbox will be updated from time to time so watch for later dates
under CQWW CW on the following page:

http://www.eskimo.com/~mwdink/3830/

73,  Bill  W4ZV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 popping noise during QSK

[Vic K2VCO]

Julius Fazekas wrote:

I noticed a phenomenon that was irritating during CQWW with my K3.

When a loud signal would be sending as I was transmitting in QSK a loud pop 
would occur
from time to time.

This may be a simple setting issue. Any thoughts?

The only bad thing I can say about the K3 is that I can still hear more than I 
was able
to work ;o)


QSK artifacts exist when there are loud signals or noise. Wayne promised that he would 
look at this when he had some time :-)

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Vic K2VCO]

Julian, G4ILO wrote:


There were a lot of key clicks in evidence and in a couple of cases the key
clicks were so strong that they actually depressed the AGC so that I had to
abandon trying to copy a couple of weaker stations. The widest bandwidth I
used was 200Hz but sometimes it was down to 150Hz or 100Hz. However the
narrowest roofing filter I have is 500Hz. If I had a narrower filter, such
as 200Hz, would that have helped in this situation?


I noticed this too. And I also noticed a number of very loud signals with absolutely no 
clicks. Possibly the no-clickers were K2's and K3's!


Most likely a narrower filter would not have helped because the clicks were within the 
filter bandpass. An unmodified FT1000 has strong clicks 1 kHz away from the signal and if 
the signal is loud, those clicks will be loud too.


The only time a 200 Hz filter would be better than a 500 Hz would be when there is a 
signal which is at least S9+20, and it is more than 100 and less than 250 Hz away (I am 
making some obvious simplifying assumptions here, but you get the idea).


When signals are that close, often you have trouble with clicks and phase noise which end 
up in your passband anyway.

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist

[Gary Smith]

In preparation for the arrival of a K3 kit at my doorstep I'm 
thinking I might want to plan ahead to make things simpler.

I'm ordering the K3 100W kit and have a K9AY receiving antenna and 
will be using a Titan 425 amplifier with it. I have several power 
supplies I can use with one being the larger Heathkit 13.8 supply 
which works fine with my TenTec gear. I also have a TenTec power 
supply which matches with my Omni V.

Are there any caveats or unexpected boondoggles I can expect to run 
into that I might get ready to resolve before it arrives?

I don't have much working test equipment here, the scope is broken 
and I need to disassemble it and find out why there are fried 
resistors. No telling, I wasn't using it when it went south.

I do have a Sprague TelOhmMic and a basic digital ohm/volt meter. 
Also have a newer MFJ SWR analyzer.

As to the Amp,  

When connecting to the TenTec transcievers, the TenTec Titan 425 has 
RCA connects for key in & key out

The key out from the Titan goes to the TX EN of the Omni.
The Key in from the Titan goes to the TX out of the Omni.
CW key goes to the Transceiver Key jack

Apparently those are TenTec designated functions so I question if 
another rig like the K3 has the exact equivilents. The manual says to
interconnect to other transceivers by doing the following:

Titan Key out to the transceiver Key jack
Titan PTT/VOX to the transceiver "EXT T/R N.O. Relay jack"
CW key goes to the Key In of the Titan.


I wonder about the relay timing issues as I often run QSK in contests 
and DX pileups. The 425 is a classic amp so I'm hoping these details 
have been figured out to exquisite detail by now and I won't have to 
re-invent the wheel.

Anything I should have asked but didn't?

Thanks for any pointers.

Gary
KA1J
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

A couple of stations lost out on a point from me because they were sending
so fast that neither the K3 nor I could copy them. Why do people do this?
Surely the number of contacts lost because people like me who are not CW
wizards just can't copy them must negate the benefit of any time saved?
These stations were repeatedly calling CQ and if I could have read them we
could have easily had a contact.


--

That's exactly why most commercial CW circuits strictly forbade high speed
operation, often enforcing a 15 to 18 wpm maximum speed rule. Moderate
speeds moves information faster than higher speeds, especially when a
variety of stations are in contact such as traffic handling between ships
and shore stations. 

I assume they didn't respond to a "QRS" from you...

Ron AC7AC




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AGC right after a transmission

[K8AC]

Lyle - I too noticed this during the contest and at times it was a real pain. 
Switching to fast AGC circumvented it, but there are many reasons that I
prefer to run slow AGC.  Also, many of us do NOT run full break-in for a
variety of good reasons.  In that case, having the AGC state resume where it
was at the last receive point - perhaps 3-6 seconds ago - isn't very useful. 
In many cases, the last AGC state was set by a strong station and the new
receive state starts with a very weak signal calling.

I don't ever recall running into this situation on my K2 or Pro III and
really would prefer some sort of option to prevent it from happening on the
K3.  Perhaps we don't need a new option, but could key an operational change
from whether or not QSK was being used?  



Lyle Johnson wrote:
> 
> Hello Arie!
> 
>> ... We SUSPECT that the AGC was still at the level from
>> BEFORE the transmission.
> 
> Yes, AGC is suspended during transmission, then resumes during receive. 
>   The assumption is that the band hasn't changed that much in the 
> milliseconds (CW QSK) to several seconds (SSB voice).
> 
>> ...the work around was setting the AGC to fast.
> 
> In general, fast AGC is most often used for CW< and slow AGC for voice 
> or data operation.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Lyle KK7P
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[WILLIS COOKE]

> From: WILLIS COOKE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 8:10 AM
> This was not a stellar year for me in the CQWW-CW, but since
> it is my favorite contest and I couldn't resist some
> participation, I made 75 QSOs with my K3.  The eye of
> Hurricane Ike passed over my QTH, only 15 miles from
> Galveston and severely damaged my antenna farm, so the only
> antenna that I had was a "Chicken Wire Special"
> for 80 and 160.  It is essentially a 160 meter inverted L
> with a trap to make it also an 80 vertical.  It works fair
> on all bands, but it is certainly not up to the standard set
> by my 3 element SteppIR with 30/40.
> 
> With 100 watts and a non-directional wire antenna, I used
> the hunt and pounce method and usually had to call several
> times to work a station.  Since I was using my 1921
> Vibroplex Original Bug for a key some of you may not be used
> to "Bug Music" and may have caused some of the
> difficulty.
> 
> I was impressed with the K3 receiver.  I had very little
> interference from overload or the strong stations on the
> band.  When I thought I had a de-sense or key click problem
> and had time to look for the offender I always found him
> within about 500 Hz of my frequency.  When I applied
> countermeasures I could get rid of most of the problem,
> usually by narrowing the pass-band until the 200 Hz roofing
> filter kicked in.  As yet, I have not found the NB to be as
> effective as the one on my TS-850 and don't find the NR
> very useful.  But then, I am mostly a CW man and Wayne has
> stated that the NR is mostly useful on SSB.  I find the QSK
> feature wonderful.  I never operated QSK with the TS-850
> because the relay sounds like it will self destruct, but
> loved QSK from the first time that I tried it on the K3. 
> Also the VOX is wonderful for SSB contesting.  
> 
> I am looking forward to a contest with all my antennas back
> up and the amplifier on line.  But, so far, I am convinced
> that the K3 is a keeper.  That is "as advertised"
> so no surprise to me or anyone.
> 
> 
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke 
> K5EWJ
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Philip Covington wrote on Monday, December 01, 2008 at 3:13 PM


The Perseus actually out performs the K3 receiver regardless of what
the recent ARRL test reports.  I agree that the ARRL needs to come up
with valid tests to evaluate real world performance of digital
receivers such as the Perseus, ADT-200A, and QS1R.



-

Perhaps some test similar to the wideband 'noise loading' tests performed on 
multichannel microwave systems would be useful. A problem that might arise 
is IMD generated by the test equipment's bandstop filter used to prevent 
noise input within the tested receiver's ultimate passband.


73,
Geoff
GM4ESD


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[Elecraft] Running an ICOM PW-1 Amp with the K3

[Tom Hammond]

I'm about to loan my K3 to another local ham who currently has an IC-7800
and PW-1 amplifier.

His IC-7800 has been sent in for service so it's temporarily out of 
the 
picture. However the PW-1 is still in play and this local is gonna want

to use it with the K3.

Is anyone running a PW-1 with their K3?  If so, please contact me a.s.a.p.
so I can exchange some info with you.  Specifically I need to know what it
took to interface the two devices and to get them to function without any
hiccups.

Appreciated.

73,

Tom Hammond   N0SS


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Alan Bloom]

On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 06:35, ab2tc wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF spectrum digitized
> at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am *very* skeptical.
> Although the Perseus (with that architecture) receiver fares relatively well
> in the recent ARRL test, 

It compares well for third-order intermodulation distortion, but not for
blocking dynamic range.  The A/D converter is very linear within its
range, so you can get some fantastic TOI (third-order intercept) numbers
if you measure with signals near the top of the ADC range.  However the
ADC full-scale signal level is less than a conventional mixer can
handle.

> the testing completely ignores what happens when
> there are not *two* but thousands of strong signals in the passband. 

Exactly.

> With
> this new architecture, it's imperative that ARRL and other labs find other
> ways of evaluating real world performance as a simple two-tone test becomes
> completely irrelevant.
> 
> Toby Deinhardt wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > has anybody done a serious test of the ADT-200A transceiver yet?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > It would be rather interesting to see how the concept used by the K3 (24 
> > bit digitalization after IF) compares in the real world to the early 14 
> > bit digitalization as used by the ADT-200A (and afaik by the Perseus RX 
> > from Microtelecom), especially with the chips available currently.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -
> AB2TC - Knut

Al N1AL


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Ignacy]

I operate in CQ WW casually AB mostly S&P. I enjoy a run, if possible,
usually on 15 or 10m as 20m was too crowded and my 2-el quad too low.

Last Sunday my Mark V Field was replaced by K3 built on Saturday.
Interfacing by USB/serial converter with N1MM took no time. 

In the morning I found a clear frequency around 14004.5, next to K3LR. The
EU started calling and in 1 hr I made some 150 QSOs. More would have been
possible if I was proficient with K3 controls.  There were some attempts on
my frequency but small BW adjustments took care of them.   

K3 takes contesting to a new level. Clear instead of muddy signals, sharp
(but not too sharp) variable filters, excellent AGC and smooth rx/tx
switching (no pops). A joy to operate. 

Ignacy, NO9E
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-and-CQWW-tp1597892p1599228.html
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Re: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface

[Dave Hachadorian]

On Mon Dec  1  5:08 , John Unger  sent:

I am in the process of connecting my K3 to a Model 419 ICE 
bandpass filter.
Does anyone have a circuit or schematic of how they 
interfaced this filter
with the outputs on the ACC port on the K3, or do I need a 
full-blown

solution like the KRC2 band decoder?


I'm pretty sure the ICE 419 requires a ground to pick up 
each band relay. A W9XT band decoder, modified with four 
2.2k pull-up resistors, one to each bcd input from 12vdc, 
should do the job inexpensively. I mounted mine (two of them 
actually) in a serial port switch box, which made a nice 
cabinet and had DB-9's already mounted. I used serial cables 
to hook the BPFs to the box, and the box to the K3s. On the 
K3 end of the cable, whack off the DB9 and install a 15-pin 
from Radio Shack. While you are fiddling with that 15-pin, 
mount a little female connector on a short pigtail for FSK 
keying. Serial cables are nice. They have 4 twisted pairs. 
Tie one side of each pair to ground and use the other 4 
wires in the pairs for signal. You can get cables and 
probably the switchbox at www.monoprice.com , which is a 
great place to buy cables and connectors.


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ

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[Elecraft] N2CQ QRP Contest Calendar: December 2008

[Ken Newman]

~
N2CQ QRP CONTEST CALENDAR
December 2008
~
80 METER FOXHUNT (CW) *** QRP Contest ***
Each Tuesday Thru Mar 24
9 PM to 10:29 PM Eastern Time USA
Info: http://www.qrpfoxhunt.org
~
40 METER FOXHUNT (CW) *** QRP Contest ***
Each Thursday Thru Mar 26
9 PM to 10:29 PM Eastern Time USA
Info: http://www.qrpfoxhunt.org/
~
Adventure Radio Spartan Sprint (CW) *** QRP Contest ***
Dec 2, 0200z to 0400z  (First Monday 9 PM EST)
Rules: http://arsqrp.pbwiki.com/Spartan+Sprints
~
QRP ARCI Topband CW & SSB Sprint *** QRP CONTEST ***
Dec 4, z to 0600z
Rules: http://www.qrparci.org/
~
ARRL 160 meter Contest (CW) ... QRP Category
Dec 5, 2200z to Dec 7, 1600z
Rules: http://www.arrl.org/contests/rules/2008/160-meters.html
~
TARA RTTY Mêlée ... 150W category
Dec 6, z to 2400z
Rules: http://www.n2ty.org/seasons/tara_melee_rules.html
~
Wake-Up! QRP Sprint (CW) *** QRP Contest ***
Dec 6, 0600z to 0800z
Rules:
http://qrp.ru/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=7&page=1
~
TOPS Activity 80 Meter Contest (CW) ... QRP Category
Dec 6, 1800z to Dec 7, 1800z
Rules: http://procwclub.yo6ex.ro/tacrules.pdf
~
NAQCC Straight Key/Bug Sprint (CW) *** QRP Contest ***
EST: Dec 9, 8:30 PM to 10:30 PM
UTC: Dec 10, 0130Z to 0330Z
Rules: http://www.arm-tek.net/~yoel/contests.html
~
ARRL 10 Meter Contest (CW/SSB) ... QRP Category
Dec 13, z to Dec 14, 2400z
Rules: http://www.arrl.org/contests/rules/2008/10-meters.html
~
MDXA PSK-31/63 DeathMatch  ... QRP Category
Dec 13, z to Dec 14, 2400z
Rules: http://www.mdxa1.org/deathmatch.html
~
Croatian CW Contest (CW) ... QRP Category
Dec 13, 1400z to Dec 14, 1400z
Rules: http://www.hamradio.hr/index.php?
~
UBA Low Band Winter Contest (CW/SSB/RTTY/PSK) .. QRP Category
Dec 13, 1700z to 2100z and
Dec 14, 0600z to 1000z
Rules: http://www.uba.be/hf_contests/pdf/uba_winter_en.pdf
~
SKCC Weekend Sprintathon (Straight Key CW) ... QRP Category
Dec 14, z to 2359z
Rules: http://www.skccgroup.com/sprint/wes/
~
The Great Colorado Snowshoe Run (20M CW) *** QRP Contest ***
MST: Dec 14. 1400 to 1559
UTC: Dec 14, 2100z to 2259z
Rules: http://www.cqc.org/contests/snow2008.htm
~
Holiday Spirits Homebrew Sprint (CW) *** QRP Contest ***
Dec 21, 2000z to 2359z
Rules: http://www.qrparci.org
~
RUN FOR THE BACON (CW) *** QRP CONTEST ***
EST: Dec 21, 9 PM to 11 PM
UTC: Dec 22, 0200z 0400z
Rules: http://www.fpqrp.com/
~
SKCC Sprint (Straight Key CW)  ... QRP Awards
Dec 24, z to 0200z
Rules: http://www.skccgroup.com/sprint/sks/
~
RAC Canada Winter Contest (All) ... QRP Category
Dec 27, z to  2359z
Rules: http://www.rac.ca/service/contesting/
~
R A E M Contest .. Low Power category
Dec 27, 0200z to 0959z
Rules: http://www.srr.ru/CONTEST/cup_raem_engl_07.php
~
Stew Perry (W1BB)
Topband Distance Challenge (CW) ... QRP Category
Dec 27, 1500z to Dec 28, 1500z
Rules: http://web.jzap.com/k7rat/stew.html
~
MQFD Monthly Sprint (CW/PH/Digital) *** QRP Contest ***
Dec 27, 1800z to 2200z
Rules: http://w2agn.net/mqfdsprint.html
~
070 CLUB QRP DX SCRAMBLE (PSK31) ... QRP Contest!
Dec 28,z to 2400z
Rules: http://www.podxs070.com
~

Thanks to SM3CER, WA7BNM, N0AX(ARRL), VA3JFF & G4GXL (QRPARCI)
N2APB (AmQRP), WB3AAL (EPAQRP) and others
for assistance in compiling this calendar.

If you wish to subscribe to the Calendar,
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Please forward the contest info you sponsor to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
we will post it and give it more publicity.
Anyone may use this "N2CQ QRP Contest Calendar" for your website,
newslette

re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[Philip Covington]

AB2TC wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF spectrum digitized
>at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am *very* skeptical.
>Although the Perseus (with that architecture) receiver fares relatively well
>in the recent ARRL test, the testing completely ignores what happens when
>there are not *two* but thousands of strong signals in the passband. With
>this new architecture, it's imperative that ARRL and other labs find other
>ways of evaluating real world performance as a simple two-tone test becomes
>completely irrelevant.


Toby Deinhardt wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> has anybody done a serious test of the ADT-200A transceiver yet?
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> It would be rather interesting to see how the concept used by the K3 (24
> bit digitalization after IF) compares in the real world to the early 14
> bit digitalization as used by the ADT-200A (and afaik by the Perseus RX
> from Microtelecom), especially with the chips available currently.
> 
>
>

The Perseus actually out performs the K3 receiver regardless of what
the recent ARRL test reports.  I agree that the ARRL needs to come up
with valid tests to evaluate real world performance of digital
receivers such as the Perseus, ADT-200A, and QS1R.

-- 
Phil Covington
Software Radio Laboratory LLC
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.srl-llc.com
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[Elecraft] K3 popping noise during QSK

[Julius Fazekas]

I noticed a phenomenon that was irritating during CQWW with my K3. 

When a loud signal would be sending as I was transmitting in QSK a loud pop 
would occur from time to time.

This may be a simple setting issue. Any thoughts?

The only bad thing I can say about the K3 is that I can still hear more than I 
was able to work ;o)

73 and thanks for the QSOs,
Julius


Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
TnQP http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2/100 #3311
Elecraft K2/100 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW

[Milt, N5IA]

I also did my first contest with my new K3; the first since operating with 
the team of K3s at VP6DX.  I also used separate RX antennas and the 
diversity feature.  Lots of fun.


I also worked 160 SB.  BUT Berni, I don't see your callsign in my log.  I 
heard lots of stations and country/zone mults that I didn't work.  I need 
more elements on the TX antenna.  Hi, hi!!


Still, a somewhat casual outing from the Southwest corner of New Mexico 
yielded  214 Qs,  57 DX  and  21 Zones  for a claimed score of  38,064.


I'll be looking for all of you in the ARRL 160 this next weekend.

Milt, N5IA, XZ0A, and VP6DX

- Original Message - 
From: "Berni G0IDA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 1:57 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW



Dear members of the K3,

I just wanted to start a thread for those of you who used a K3 in CQWW,
to ask of your experiences during the contest using the K3, the set-up
you had and to see if we worked other K3 members.


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Re: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface

[Greg - AB7R]

Hi John,

I think you need a band decorder.  I use the KRC2 connected to the K3 AUXBUS 
line on the 
ACCY connector.  I use the KRC2 SOURCE to switch my antennas and the SINK for 
switching 
the ICE filters.  Worked just great.  The KRC2 is not a difficult kit and 
provides great 
flexibility for automatic switching.

-
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065


On Mon Dec  1  5:08 , John Unger  sent:

>I am in the process of connecting my K3 to a Model 419 ICE bandpass filter. 
>Does anyone have a circuit or schematic of how they interfaced this filter 
>with the outputs on the ACC port on the K3, or do I need a full-blown 
>solution like the KRC2 band decoder?
>
>tnx es 73 - John, W4AU
>
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RE: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

You need some kind of band decoder.  However, the W9XT board 
(BCD to one of 9) will do the job nicely with the proper 
relay drivers. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Unger
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:09 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] ICE 419 interface
> 
> 
> I am in the process of connecting my K3 to a Model 419 ICE 
> bandpass filter. 
> Does anyone have a circuit or schematic of how they 
> interfaced this filter 
> with the outputs on the ACC port on the K3, or do I need a full-blown 
> solution like the KRC2 band decoder?
> 
> tnx es 73 - John, W4AU
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU

[ab2tc]

Hi,

I, too, would be very interested in seeing how "entire HF spectrum digitized
at once" receivers would fare in the real world. I am *very* skeptical.
Although the Perseus (with that architecture) receiver fares relatively well
in the recent ARRL test, the testing completely ignores what happens when
there are not *two* but thousands of strong signals in the passband. With
this new architecture, it's imperative that ARRL and other labs find other
ways of evaluating real world performance as a simple two-tone test becomes
completely irrelevant.


Toby Deinhardt wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> has anybody done a serious test of the ADT-200A transceiver yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be rather interesting to see how the concept used by the K3 (24 
> bit digitalization after IF) compares in the real world to the early 14 
> bit digitalization as used by the ADT-200A (and afaik by the Perseus RX 
> from Microtelecom), especially with the chips available currently.
> 
> 
> 


-
AB2TC - Knut
-- 
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http://n2.nabble.com/K3---ADAT-ADT-200A-by-HB9CBU-tp1597981p1598876.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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RE: [Elecraft] External speakers?

[NZ8J]

Thanks to all who provided their insight and experience pertaining to
the question I asked about external speakers for the K3. I appreciate
each and every response which provided me with a lot of options and
ideas to pursue...
 
Thanks again
Tim
NZ8J

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of NZ8J
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:32 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] External speakers?



I would like to use two external speakers with my K3 setting them up one
on each side of the radio. Has anyone found something that somewhat
matches in color and size to the K3 and has a good sound?  Seems like
Kenwood used to make a smaller speaker that might work. Would like to
hear from anyone who has a similar setup. 

Thanks 
Tim 
NZ8J 


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