Re: [PSES] CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 62133-2:20 for CR 2032 Batteries?
My professional experience with Amazon product safety people, maybe 5 years ago and before I retired, was frustrating. One angle you might try: treat them like another product safety professional with whom you are networking. In this case, you might provide a link to the CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 62133-2:20 website and point out that the standard only applies to secondary cells. You might also provide a link to a site explaining what secondary cells are. We all have helped educate one another over the years; we can continue that courtesy with our Amazon colleagues. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 07/22/2024 1:58 PM CDT Ralph McDiarmid wrote: > > > > Unless Amazon has a regulatory department that has access to national > standards, this may be a simple checkbox for in-coming inspection. In that > case, you might be stuck with the requirement regardless of CR2032 cell type. > > > > CAN/CSA C22.2 are part 2 national standards for Canada, not applicable in > other countries unless adopted. > > > > Ralph > > > > From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2024 11:21 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 62133-2:20 for CR 2032 Batteries? > > > > Hello John, > > > > I believe that IEC 60086-4 is the applicable standard for primary > (non-rechargeable) lithium batteries, including coin cells. As others have > noted, IEC 62133-2 is for secondary (rechargeable) batteries. > > > > Ted Eckert > > The opinions expressed in this message are my own and do not necessarily > reflect those of my employer. > > > - > > From: John Riutta mailto:jriu...@celestron.com> > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2024 10:31 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 62133-2:20 for CR 2032 Batteries? > > > > > > You don't often get email from jriu...@celestron.com > mailto:jriu...@celestron.com. Learn why this is important > https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification > > > > Hello all, > > > > We’ve been seeing Amazon requiring CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 62133-2:20 for all > products that use or contain at time of sale a CR 2032 coin cell battery. I > was of the understanding that this standard did not apply to this battery. > Unfortunately, I do not possess a copy of the standard so I cannot verify > this myself. MayI ask if anyone here can offer verification or rebuttal > please? > > > > Best regards, > > John > > > > John E. Riutta, MA, MBA, FLS I Product Development and Product Compliance > Manager I jriu...@celestron.com mailto:jriu...@celestron.com I 323.446.1076 > > CELESTRON, LLC. I 2835 Columbia Street I Torrance, CA 90503 > > > > [Logo Description automatically generated] http://www.celestron.com/ [Icon > Description automatically generated] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.instagram.com_celestronuniverse=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=x40qV4DM3u4JrqHl_FVpxdOqkHDBo3f6BvwvAwIWGH8=B6fIOBUaG50CeATRoPrGe3aQoHBGiKZFSBIu-ovu97c5RZhLW5JAVauCDQwYc3UQ=mp6OgNq_McWjXY2YQYjZ9Dk6_XzP1VPvIEe8C8zj56A= > [A close-up of a fire Description automatically generated with low > confidence] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_Celestron=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=x40qV4DM3u4JrqHl_FVpxdOqkHDBo3f6BvwvAwIWGH8=B6fIOBUaG50CeATRoPrGe3aQoHBGiKZFSBIu-ovu97c5RZhLW5JAVauCDQwYc3UQ=VPySibohtehHWHpC8d5rHDIovgyX-KLLxjtWSiblJGI= > [A picture containing text, clipart Description automatically generated] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_celestron=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=x40qV4DM3u4JrqHl_FVpxdOqkHDBo3f6BvwvAwIWGH8=B6fIOBUaG50CeATRoPrGe3aQoHBGiKZFSBIu-ovu97c5RZhLW5JAVauCDQwYc3UQ=mFMWx391BWGOZRSQd2VOWpQ8frezSjy2nYeDDPQcxtg= > [Icon Description automatically generated] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_user_CelestronDotCom=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=x40qV4DM3u4JrqHl_FVpxdOqkHDBo3f6BvwvAwIWGH8=B6fIOBUaG50CeATRoPrGe3aQoHBGiKZFSBIu-ovu97c5RZhLW5JAVauCDQwYc3UQ=ziJj_dfd_78luGSUUH4AfwmPyhD40fdDd46c8oL7bcc= > [Icon Description automatically generated] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_company_celestron-2Dllc-2D=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=x40qV4DM3u4JrqHl_FVpxdOqkHDBo3f6BvwvAwIWGH8=B6fIOBUaG50CeATRoPrGe3aQoHBGiKZFSBIu-ovu97c5RZhLW5JAVauCDQwYc3UQ=dXknLUOcxSuYfVZ
Re: [PSES] SCCR Rating Question
Brian — I am equally mystified by qualifying an SCCR with a voltage. Perhaps you could network into a friendly UL 408a panel shop and see what they say. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC On 05/15/2024 9:05 AM -05 Brian Kunde wrote: I appreciate the replies, but I am not getting the information I am seeking. Some machines have just the SCCR Rating, such as SCCR: 10kA but a few machines we have looked at include a reference to the "Max Voltage", such as SCCR: 10kA RMS Symmetrical, 480V Maximum What is the source, code, standard, directive, etc. that calls out the Max Voltage as a requirement in the SCCR rating that is printed on the Nameplate label? We cannot find such a source. In our case, we have a machine that can operate at 230V, 380V, or 480V depending on how the motor is wired. So on a machine rated 230V it has a SCCR rating that includes the Max Voltage of 480V. We are getting push-back from the field saying that having the voltage on the SCCR rating is confusing. To resolve this, we want to remove the reference to the Max Voltage, but before we do that, we want to find out if it is mandated in the code or some standard. I can see where the max voltage might be required on some components. Maybe it is an old requirement that is no longer required. I am just guessing. Thanks again for your help. The Other Brian On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 3:54 PM Scott Aldous <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Starting on page 7, the white paper that Rich linked to also references UL 508A, supplement SB, which is a method of determining SCCR for industrial control panels without test. The method at a high level involves carrying over the SCCR rating of the "weakest link in the chain" from a protective component standpoint to the overall panel. I wonder if that method may have been used for the machinery in question, with a component level voltage rating (improperly, in my opinion) shifted over to the end device. Note that UL 508A includes "at a nominal voltage" in its definition of SCCR. On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 12:33 PM Richard Nute <ri...@ieee.org> wrote: Hi Brian: See the very last line of: https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/littelfuse_industrial_whitepaper_increase_sccr.pdf Best regards, Rich From: Ralph McDiarmid <rmm.priv...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2024 11:41 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [PSES] SCCR Rating Question Could this number to used to select a suitable circuit breaker and so the interrupting voltage is an important parameter? The nameplate rating on the machine should be the information an electrician needs during installation and selection of wire size and type. Ralph From: Brian Kunde <bkundew...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2024 11:29 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: [PSES] SCCR Rating Question Greetings to all. I am new to SCCR ratings on industrial machinery. The ratings I have seen sometimes has a "Maximum Voltage" included, such as; SCCR: 22kA, 600V Maximum Where does the voltage value come from? In one case, the machine had a line voltage rating of "120/208 Vac", but the SCCR rating had a voltage rating of "Max 600V". Can this be confusing? Might something think the machine can operate at 600Vac? Thanks for any replies. The Other Brian This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the li
Re: [PSES] DoC - reference to ROHS directive
What I've seen is language like "2011/65/EU RoHS directive with amendment 2015/863/EU" or "2011/65/EU RoHS directive as amended by 2015/863/EU" The 2015 amendment adds four substances to the original six, so you should mention both it and the 2011 directive. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 04/21/2024 12:52 PM CDT Amund Westin wrote: > > > > I have the last 10+ years made reference to ROHS directive 2011/65/EU in the > DoC. > > Now, I have been told to switch to 2015/863/EU? Is that correct? > > > > From what I see on the EU web site, 2015/863 is a Commission Delegated > Directive, amending Annex II to Directive 2011/65/EU > > As I understand, 2011/65/EU is still in charge, and is the directive to be > listed in the DoC. > > > > Comments? > > > > BR Amund > > > > > > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ > > > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html > List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org mailto:linf...@ieee.org > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Red and Green lights on machinery
In my opinion, this arrangement may likely confuse the user. Reason: lights are typically used as status indicators---green for on, and red for stopped. This reverses that logic and might well confuse the user. See NFPA 79 or EN IEC 60204-1 for typical color codes for machinery. In my recollection, lights that are prompts for users are coded blue, that adding yet another color would likely complicate your design at little benefit. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 03/06/2024 10:10 AM CST Brian Kunde wrote: > > > > Greetings to all. > > We are working on a motor driven machine that would be used in a commercial, > industrial, and light industrial environment. > > The machine has a Green button to Start, and a Red button to Stop. These > buttons are illuminated. Other than the e-stop, these are the only operator > controls on the product. > > When the machine is stopped, the Green button is lit. When you press the > green button, the motor starts, but then the green light in the button goes > out and the red light in the Stop button lights up (not flashing).Is this > OK? > > The design team for this project thought it would help the Operator find the > buttons easier this way. > > I must also state that this machine is not designed to follow the > construction rules for Control Panels. We call it a highbred design. It will > be serviced and maintained by the manufacturer. > > My only question is regarding the illuminated lights but feel free to comment > on any other aspect of this email. > > Regards, > The Other Brian > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ > > > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html > List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org mailto:linf...@ieee.org > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Very Small Product; Many Certification Marks
One of my wireless mice from 5-10 years ago had markings in its battery compartment. On 11/15/2023 6:18 PM CST John Woodgate wrote: I'm sure you will never get a definitive answer, and in any case it depends on whether you look at the symbols in rows or columns. I would prioritize the Bluetooth logo and then US and European marks, assuming the product is for those markets. But if it needs the CE mark, that probably won't fit, so put it on the tag. On 2023-11-15 23:45, John Riutta wrote: Hello all, I’m seeking guidance please on what the best practice is for handling a very small electronic product (a Bluetooth key fob) that holds many certifications. There simply isn’t room on the body of the unit for all of the marks that apply. Is there an order of precedence that should be followed, after which all additional marks are placed on a tag or in the manual? Many thanks in advance, John John E. Riutta, MA, MBA, FLS I Product Development and Product Compliance Manager I jriu...@celestron.com I 323.446.1076 CELESTRON, LLC. I 2835 Columbia Street I Torrance, CA 90503 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.netRick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.netRick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] AI & Regulatory Compliance
Regan — Good topic. Maybe we should also consider some techniques for sniffing out the BS from AI generated text, which appears to source whatever is on the web, right or wrong. Note also that the new Machinery Regulation also addresses AI. See its Whereas clause 12 for some background, as I recall. Would LOVE to see presentations on this at ISPCE. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC On 10/06/2023 2:59 PM MST Regan Arndt wrote: Greetings fellow members, Our industry will not be immune to this new era of AI technology and want to bring up this topic again to obtain some more insight from the forum into: "How do you think AI will play a future role in our Regulatory compliance world?" I can see some real benefits to this when applying it to a risk assessment, EMC redesign including change out of critical components, & possibly to help support engineering judgments in lieu of testing (i.e. temperature modeling), etc.…though I think we would have to include the usage of AI as one of the potential risks in the risk assessment. lol UL touched base on this topic during their UL Innovations summit held in Fremont, CA yesterday. I know there is the ISO/IEC DTR 5469 in development, but this appears, I believe, to only address functional safety of the AI systems in question, and not addressing AI in normal compliance assessments for products under the category of laboratory, IT, audio, etc. Also, is there someone out there that will be speaking to this during the 2024 ISPCE in Chicago next May? Perhaps there should be an IEEE PSES technical committee created for this? Side note: Nordcloud puts out a good summary blog on this: https://nordcloud.com/blog/how-ai-can-help-you-obtain-regulatory-compliance/ There are other AI blogs out there in the ether but more tuned for the financial sector and other industries…. Looking forward to the discussion. P.S. I am now the Chair for the IEEE PSES Risk assessment technical committee and am looking for any volunteers to join our group. This topic will be one to discuss soon within our group. Please email me at regan.ar...@ieee.org or reganar...@gmail.com if you are interested in joining. Cheers! Regan Arndt This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.netRick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] UK extends CE mark recognition indefinitely
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing! Has anybody heard any UK thoughts about how the UK will approach the new Machinery Regulation, which replaces the Machinery Directive for CE marking? Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 08/01/2023 8:17 AM CDT Lauren Crane > <1afd08519f18-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > Thanks very much for sharing this! > > Best Regards, > - Lauren Crane > **Sent from mobile phone. Please excuse typos, brevity, etc.** > > > Confidential – Limited Access and Use > > > - > From: Matthew Wilson | GBE > Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2023 4:41:12 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] UK extends CE mark recognition indefinitely > > > You don't often get email from matthew.wil...@gbelectronics.com. Learn why > this is important https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification > > > > External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you believe this email > may be unsafe, please click on the “Report Phishing” button on the top right > of Outlook. > > > > https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ukca-marking-conformity-assessment-and-documentation > > Reporting: > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/01/uk-eu-safety-mark-brexit-climbdown > > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/01/uk-eu-safety-mark-brexit-climbdown > - the funny bit here is that the original article was accompanied by a > picture of a non-compliant CE logo, as per the final note “The image > accompanying this article was changed on 1 August 2023, to one of a CE mark > that adheres more closely to EU guidance on how it should be reproduced” > > The [UK] government intends to extend recognition of the CE marking for > placing most goods on the market in Great Britain, indefinitely, beyond > December 2024. These updates apply to the 18 regulations that fall under the > Department for Business and Trade (DBT). These are: > > * toys > * pyrotechnics > * recreational craft and personal watercraft > * simple pressure vessels > * electromagnetic compatibility > * non-automatic weighing instruments > * measuring instruments > * measuring container bottles > * lifts > * equipment for potentially explosive atmospheres (ATEX) > * radio equipment > * pressure equipment > * personal protective equipment (PPE) > * gas appliances > * machinery > * equipment for use outdoors > * aerosols > * low voltage electrical equipment > Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed. > If you have received this email in error please delete it from your system, > do not use or disclose the information in any way and notify the sender > immediately. > The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the > views of the company, unless specifically stated. > > GB Electronics (UK) Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales under > number 06210991. > Registered office: Ascot House Mulberry Close, Woods Way, Goring By Sea, West > Sussex, BN12 4QY. > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All > emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html > List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org mailto:linf...@ieee.org > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > > > LAM RESEARCH CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any > documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it, (collectively, > "E-mail Transmission") may be subject to one or more of the following based > on the associated sensitivity level: E-mail Transmission (i) contains > confid
Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Regulation official version
Still requires a DoC. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 07/04/2023 11:45 AM CDT Scott Xe wrote: > > > Dear Doug, > > Many thanks for your brief and useful information! I wonder if this > regulation still requires a DoC. > > Best regards, > > Scott > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Foreign Object Detection for industrial charger
You can typically find a UL committee's activities and membership names and affiliations (but not contact information) on the UL standards website. You may have to register. Once you register, you can also request that ongoing revision drafts of specific standards are notified to you, so you have a chance to comment on them, even if you are not officially part of the committee. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 06/07/2023 3:22 AM CDT Boštjan Glavič wrote: > > > > Dear experts, > > > > Is anyone familiar if there exist some requirements for Foreign Object > Detection for industrial wireless chargers? We are applying UL 1564 and CSA > 107.2, however no specific requirements for wireless charger. > > > > Any recommendation would be helpful. Any idea how can I reach working group > that develops UL 1564 or CSA 107.2? > > > > And we are talking about industrial charger, not EV charger. > > > > Thank you for your support. > > > > Best regards, > > Boštjan Glavič > > SIQ > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Power cords
Steve -- Fun questions! (I am a person with documented tendencies to not take the trouble to go to a breaker panel to find and disconnect the correct breaker, so I may be taking a different approach here...) Nameplate I regard the nameplate as information for the installing electrician on how to size the facility breaker and the wiring to the equipment (ceiling panel). So I agree with your approach, from what I understand from your description. Labels and LOTO I would explore, with your client, any incentives for the user to simply disconnect the power cord for a single subsystem from the ceiling panel to work on that subsystem, so that the entire system would not have to be taken down and restarted. If that seems reasonably foreseeable, you may need additional risk mitigations beyond what you propose. Good to see you at ISPCE, too! Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 05/15/2023 6:25 PM CDT Steve Brody wrote: > > > Experts. > > First, it was good to see those who were at ISPCE in Dallas. > > Back to the question at hand, and a proposed solution. But I still request > ay comments/inputs. > > I have a client who makes products to their customer's requirements. The end > product includes several products, sub-systems, that work together in the end > product to perform the intended task. > > Each of the subsystems has its own power cord that plugs into an outlet in a > ceiling panel which has an outlet for each of the sub-systems. > > Power to the ceiling panel is derived from a single facility panel that has a > LOTO breaker. > > It is my thought that the following should be done: > * The system nameplate current rating should be inclusive of all sub-systems > and system power > * that there be a label adjacent to the nameplate indicating that there are > 'x' number of power cords, and that the disconnect for the systems the > facility panel number > Thoughts? > > Thanks in advance, > > Steve Brody > sgbr...@comcast.net mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net > C - 603 617 9116 > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Rated Mains Operating Voltage Regional Compatibility [General Use]
I think it would be reasonable to expect that a product marked 100-240 Vac and as compliant with 62368-1 would have been tested, where specified in the standard to test to the "most unfavorable supply voltage," to values in the 90-264 range. If in doubt, you could ask the manufacturer. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 05/09/2023 10:57 AM CDT Agar, Philip (Leonardo, UK) > <220ac8787b71-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > Thank you Bernd, Mike and everyone else who replied with your helpful > comments. > > I think my dilemma concerns the interpretation of the rated voltage tolerance > in relation to the consideration of supply voltage for testing under clause > B.2.3 in IEC62368-1. The clause looks unchanged since 2014 (if not before) > and reads: > > > In determining the most unfavourable supply voltage for a test, the following > variables shall be taken into account: > – multiple rated voltages; > – extremes of rated voltage ranges; and > – tolerance on rated voltage as declared by the manufacturer. > Unless the manufacturer declares a wider tolerance, the minimum tolerance > shall be taken as +10 % and −10 % for AC mains and +20 % and −15 % for DC > mains. Equipment intended by the manufacturer to be restricted to connection > to a conditioned power supply system (for example, a UPS) may be provided > with a narrower tolerance if the equipment is also provided with instructions > specifying such restriction. > > > The equipment under consideration is rated 100 to 240 Vac. This range could > be seen as having a significantly wider tolerance than +10 % and −10 % > depending upon what AC mains voltage you had in mind, and therefore not be > subject to any further extension of tolerance according to the above rules, > i.e. it would only be assessed over the voltage range 100 to 240 Vac. > However, if the conventional interpretation is to apply a minimum of +10 % > and −10 % to any stated voltage then the assessment would be performed over > the voltage range 90 to 264 Vac. The latter seems a safer way to go but I > don't know that I could assume it was tested that way and therefore not > necessarily suitable for use on UK mains with its maximum toleranced voltage > of 253 V. > > Regards, > Phil > > -Original Message- > From: Dürrer Bernd > Sent: 08 May 2023 09:21 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Rated Mains Operating Voltage Regional > Compatibility [General Use] > > *** WARNING *** > > This message has originated outside your organisation, > either from an external partner or the Global Internet. > Keep this in mind if you answer this message. > > > Hi Phil, > > The concept of rated voltage in standards already includes allowable > tolerances and adequate tests. For the supply side, EN 50160 "Voltage > characteristics of electricity supplied by public electricity networks" > requires in clause 4.2.2 that variations of the rated supply voltage should > not exceed ±10 % (with exceptions for remote grid users, e.g. on islands, > where +10 % / -15 % are allowable). As Mike already explained, product safety > standards require testing with the most unfavourable voltage within the > tolerance band of the rated voltage of the equipment (cf. clause B.2.3 in IEC > 62368-1:2018). It is the responsibility of the installer and user that the > equipment is connected to a supply that matches the voltage rating declared > by the manufacturer. > > Kind regards, > > Bernd > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: MIKE SHERMAN > Gesendet: Samstag, 6. Mai 2023 20:38 > An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Betreff: Re: [PSES] Rated Mains Operating Voltage Regional Compatibility > [General Use] > > [EXTERNAL E-MAIL] This email originated from outside of the organization. Do > not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender. > > Phil -- > > It is typical for many standards to run voltage sensitive tests (temperature > rise, for example, as I recall) at the labeled voltage PLUS a percentage (6 > to 10 %, as I recall). That percentage is intended to cover the utility > supply tolerances. > > So a product labeled 100-240 Vac will often face a test at 264 Vac. > > Occasionally one might find a product labeled 85-264, but in my opinion that > is most likely a mistake, because it would need to be tested at 290 Vac for a > standard that requires a 10% overvoltage test, and I am not aware of any > supply tolerances that would allow 290 Vac. > > Word to the wise: Australia's nominal voltage is now 230 Vac, but it has > legacy systems that
Re: [PSES] Rated Mains Operating Voltage Regional Compatibility [General Use]
Phil -- It is typical for many standards to run voltage sensitive tests (temperature rise, for example, as I recall) at the labeled voltage PLUS a percentage (6 to 10 %, as I recall). That percentage is intended to cover the utility supply tolerances. So a product labeled 100-240 Vac will often face a test at 264 Vac. Occasionally one might find a product labeled 85-264, but in my opinion that is most likely a mistake, because it would need to be tested at 290 Vac for a standard that requires a 10% overvoltage test, and I am not aware of any supply tolerances that would allow 290 Vac. Word to the wise: Australia's nominal voltage is now 230 Vac, but it has legacy systems that still supply at 240 Vac. So a typical national difference for Australia is to perform your tests AS IF the rated voltage was 240 Vac. This means an extra test or two if you're taking a product rated for 230 Vac for the EU market and want to sell it in Australia. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 05/06/2023 4:09 AM CDT Agar, Philip (Leonardo, UK) > <220ac8787b71-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > Please could someone advise me on what standard, if any, might compel a > manufacturer to rate the operating voltage of their equipment to at least > cover the utility supply tolerance of the region in which it is being sold? > For example, a DoC for an IT item sold in the UK claims conformance with the > requirements of LVD Directive 2014/35/EU and EN62368-1:2014+A11:2017 but it > is not clear to me that the specified voltage rating of 100 - 240 Vac > necessarily covers UK utility supply tolerance of up to 253 Vac, or even in > much of the EU at 243.8 Vac. > > Thanks, > Phil Agar > EMC Compliance > > > > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: > David Heald: > _ > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EStops
Steve -- I have not read ISO 13850, but it is a key requirement in my mind that ESTOPs are readily accessible to the operator. Mike > On 04/20/2023 3:21 PM sgbrody wrote: > > > Experts, > > Have read through EN ISO 13850 know that an ESTOP can be a button on the > machine, or a floor mounted foot actuator, or a rope pull. > > The option my client's customer would like is a post, lagged to the > floor, that has the ESTOP mounted on it. > > I can't give you information on the system other than to say that there > are carts 90 degrees to each other and due to the size of the carts, an ESTOP > can't be reached by an operator if it was mounted on the frame that the carts > attach to. > > And so the question about post mounted ESTOPS. The posts would marked to > prevent becoming a tripping hazard. > > Thoughts? > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Are Australia/New Zealand approvals needed for IEC 60320 Appliance Inlet ?
This is subtle. If you’re selling appliance connectors as components in the Au/NZ market, they are likely treated differently than those appliance connectors that are only sold as part of equipment. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC On 04/18/2023 11:31 AM Scott Aldous <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Be careful. Appliance connectors are AU Level 3 equipment. You can find the full list in AS/NZS 4417.2. On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 9:27 AM Ryan Jazz <rjayasin...@yamahaguitargroup.com> wrote: Hello List Members, An update that the NRTL withdrew their request for the “Australia/NZ” approvals document for the appliance inlet The IEC certificate was acceptable. Sincerely, Ryan Jazz Ryan Jayasinghe Regulatory Compliance Engineer rjayasin...@line6.com "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley LINE6 26580 Agoura Road Calabasas CA 91302 line6.com ampeg.com From: Ryan Jazz Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 1:36 PMTo: emc-p...@ieee.orgSubject: Are Australia/New Zealand approvals needed for IEC 60320 Appliance Inlet ? Dear list members, We are trying to get a CB Report for our guitar amplifier from our local NRTL. For the Australia/New Zealand deviations they are asking us to provide an ‘Australia/NZ’ approval document for the appliance inlet. Is this a new requirement, I always thought Australia/New Zealand accepts IEC approvals. If it is a new requirement does anyone know the regulation name or standard number. Thank you, Sincerely, Ryan Jazz Ryan Jayasinghe Regulatory Compliance Engineer rjayasin...@line6.com "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley LINE6 26580 Agoura Road Calabasas CA 91302 line6.com ampeg.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgDavid Heald dhe...@gmail.com To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 -- Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Manager | scottald...@google.com | 650-253-1994 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Flammability Rating for Plastics V0 vs V1
Cecil -- Your inquiry is a bit broad, so it's hard to provide specific answers. If the polycarbonate parts are part of electrical equipment, you should be able to find flammability requirements in the safety standards used for that equipment in the intended markets. If the polycarbonate is for use in buildings and is permanent (e.g., windows), I would expect that there might be some guidance in local building codes. If the polycarbonate is used in furnishings (e.g., cashier shields), I simply don't know. Some things (e.g., sleepware, furniture) are regulated for flammability, but I don't know if polycarbonate is. Lastly, in certain high risk areas (e.g., cleanrooms) insurance companies might have minimum flammability requirements for plastics. So "it depends" applies here! :-) I hope others on this forum can chip in. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 03/02/2023 8:36 AM cgitt...@rochester.rr.com wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > I am looking for minimum requirements for flammability ratings for > Polycarbonate plastics for the different countries /regions. > > Regards > > Cecil > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EU and UK DoC
Yes, that is what we concluded. In addition, there is some other terminology that differs between the two that your client might have to deal with. Mike Sherman PSC LLC On 03/01/2023 1:29 PM 06cee064502d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org wrote: Hello Group, I have a client that wishes to use a single DoC for both EU (CE) and UK (UKCA). He has figured out everything except one area and that is the address/location for signature. Does he have to have two addresses shown on the DoC for signature? One in EU and one in UK? Thanks Peter
Re: [PSES] Adding more than one EUT
My recollection from the EMC directive is that one is supposed to test the product in a manufacturer’s intended configuration that creates the most emissions. On 02/17/2023 2:20 PM Lfresearch <00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Hi folks, I’ve been asked to test a light fixture that has the ability to be daisy chained up to 8 units. When I run conducted emissions, I’m wondering if I need to insist on having 8 units plugged in at once i.e. fully populated, OR, can I just test one fixture at a time since that’s how the system is likely to be used also.. Is there a legal requirement or precedent on how this should be tested as I’m going round in circles arguing with myself here. Thanks, Derek. SSCLabs, Reno, NV. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Exclusion from the RED?
Doug -- I think you're fine as is. The product simply does not use Wifi or BT. Also, do a word search on "software" in RED and you'll find some references to users not being able to take the product out of RED compliance by means of the software available to them. This sounds like it applies to your case. Mike > On 01/25/2023 11:22 AM Doug Nix wrote: > > > Colleagues, > > I was discussing the application of the RED with someone this week, and > this question came up: > > If a product has WiFi or Bluetooth transceivers populated on a board, but > they are disabled via software, is that sufficient to exclude the product > from the RED, or would the transceiver hardware need to be removed from the > product? If the software switch was used, the end user would not be able to > enable the transceivers. > > Doug Nix > d...@ieee.org > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers
Dan -- I'd suggest that you have your relative call Support at the pacemaker/defib manufacturer. On a slightly different project, I found a lot of on-line information about device immunity, and I think we even called Support and got additional clarifying information. Go to the source! Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC Product Safety and Compliance Consulting > On 11/03/2022 11:32 AM Dan Roman > <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Hello list! > > > > I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently > got a fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the > charging cord. There are warnings in the user manual advising against people > with pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I assume are > fairly strong rare earth types. I looked up the DoC for the tracker and the > EM field human exposure standards EN 50663 and EN 62479 are listed on the > DoC. My question is do these standards and the similar IEC 62233 give a > reasonable assurance that a pacemaker would not be interfered with or are > these standards purely concerned with biological effects on the human body > only? I would expect the pacemaker to be immune to a certain extent if it is > FDA listed and complies with IEC 60601-1-2. I don’t know the model number of > their device but I would expect them all to be similar. Do they need to send > back their fitness tracker? Or is the warning just thrown in because the > lawyers wanted it? > > > > Although products I work on need to meet these types of standards, I > don’t have much familiarity with these exposure standards because my products > have never failed > > > > Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > __ > Dan Roman, N.C.E. > > Senior Member > > IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > > mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org > > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Surge Protection Device required by NEC
If you are declaring conformance with the EU’s EMC Directive, there are standard surge tests to run. There are generic “light industrial” and “heavy industrial” levels of surge immunity. As shorthand, “heavy” can be interpreted as a facility with its own pad transformer, and “light” as one that shares a utility transformer with others (think strip mall). There’s also a “fast transient” test, as I recall. That might be related to lighting strikes, but there are others on this forum who know this better than I. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC On 11/02/2022 1:59 PM Brian Kunde wrote: Very good information, all. So how do I know if my product is "effectively protected from voltage surges on the incoming supply circuit"?? Can I test my product to the Surge Immunity Test IEC 61000-4-5 at some voltage??? 2kV?, 3kV? 4kV? higher? to make that determination? How is a Field Inspector going to determine if a product is efficiently protected or not? The manufacturers of Surge Protection Devices are saying their "listed" devices are now "Required", and there's no way around it. The hair on the back of my head sticks up when I hear such things. Manufacturers of Industrial Machines will not know if their customer already has Surge Protection, so why should the both parties be burdened with the cost of double protection. Can the machine manufacturer specify that the facility must provide the SPD? Instead of just requiring a SPD, why not require the Machine Manufacturer to insure their products pass a Surge Immunity Test of some kind? Isn't Surge Immunity already a requirement in the electrical safety standards that Machines have to meet anyway? You got me thinking, now. Thanks again. Brian On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 5:26 PM Don Gies <0e5e843b011c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Group, The requirement for surge protection in NFPA 70 (2023): 670.6 goes back to NFPA 79, “Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery.” The scope NEC 70 (2023): 670 refers to NFPA 79, as follows: Article 670 Industrial Machinery 670.1 Scope. This article covers the nameplate data for, overvoltage protection for, and the size and overcurrent protection of supply conductors to industrial machinery. Informational Note No. 1: See NFPA 79, Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery, for further information. Informational Note No. 2: See 110.26 for information on the workspace requirements for equipment containing supply conductor terminals. Informational Note No. 3: See NFPA 79, Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery, for information on the workspace requirements for machine power and control equipment. 670.6 reads as follows (2023 NEC): 670.6 Overvoltage Protection.Industrial machinery with safety circuits shall have overvoltage protection. Under NFPA 79: 7.8.1, the requirement for surge protection is as follows: 7.8.1* Surge-Protective Devices (SPDs). Industrial machinery with safety circuits not effectively protected from the effects of overvoltages due to lightning or switching surges shall have surge protection installed.Exception: SPDs shall not be required where the risks associated with the effects of overvoltages are mitigated such that the safety performance determined by a risk assessment is met. Enhanced Content The term surge-protective devices (SPDs) has replaced the previously used terms overvoltage protection device, lightning overvoltage suppression, and surge switching overvoltage suppression in 7.8.1, 7.8.2, and 7.8.3. See the definition of surge-protective device (SPD) in 3.3.104. The 2018 edition revised the existing requirement in 7.8.1 to require an appropriate SPD for protection of industrial machinery with safety interlock circuits to correlate with Section 670.6 of NFPA 70. Best regards, Don Gies Internal From: Richard Nute <ri...@ieee.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2022 4:03 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [PSES] Surge Protection Device required by NEC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] The NEC 670.6 quote triggers some q
Re: [PSES] EU harmonised standard of EN 62368-1 Ed3 : 2020 for General Product Safety Directive
Scott — I am not aware of any policy or practice of eliminating transition periods. My reference is the official list of harmonized standards for each directive on the EU website. I trust that more than the CENELEC dates in the beginning of the EN standards. Mike On 11/01/2022 9:50 PM Scott Xe wrote: Dear Mike, Appreciate your spotting out the essential part that was over-looked. As explained in above reply, it seems a full version of EN 62368-1 : 2020 is still applied. Did EU remove the transitional period for any updates/amendments recently? From now on, all listed standards take effect immediately. Regarding the development of EN 62368-1, the 3rd edition likely skips in LVD and RED. We are awaiting further detail about the 4th edition in 2023. Thanks and regards, Scott On Wed, 2 Nov 2022 at 00:56, MIKE SHERMAN <msherma...@comcast.net> wrote: Scott -- Go to page 63 of the OJ from August 16 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2022:213:FULL=EN and look at item 21 “However, the publication of those references should be limited to the clauses 3.3.19 ‘Sound exposure’ and 10.6 ‘Safeguard against acoustic energy sources’, given that the purpose of Commission Decision 2009/490/EC is limited to ensuring that exposure to sound from personal music players does not pose a risk to hearing.” So it looks like this is a very limited adoption of only PART of the third edition for the sole purpose of personal music players. Here also is some information about 62368-1 that I gleaned from the IEEE ISPCE Symposium in San Diego in September: -2nd edition: has a "dow" Date of Withdrawal of January 2023; reportedly there is a CENELC vote going on right now to extend that (18 months?) so it can continue to be valid as we wait for the 4th edition -3rd edition is still dead [as a harmonized standard for LVD] -4th edition is being voted on, perhaps in January 2023, and so may soon be approved simultaneously by both IEC and CENELEC. Reportedly the committee has been working closely with the EU to avoid the problems that sunk the 3rd edition as a viable harmonized EN standard. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC On 11/01/2022 9:45 AM Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> wrote: Dear All, On 16 Aug 2022, OJEU listed EN 62368-1 2020 without a deadline of an enforcement date. Normally it will have a transitional period of 18 or 24 months. Does it mean to take effect immediately without a transitional period from EN 62368-1 Ed2 : 2014 to EN 62368-1 Ed 3 : 2020? Thanks and regards, Scott - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Websit
Re: [PSES] EU harmonised standard of EN 62368-1 Ed3 : 2020 for General Product Safety Directive
Scott -- Go to page 63 of the OJ from August 16 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2022:213:FULL=EN and look at item 21 “However, the publication of those references should be limited to the clauses 3.3.19 ‘Sound exposure’ and 10.6 ‘Safeguard against acoustic energy sources’, given that the purpose of Commission Decision 2009/490/EC is limited to ensuring that exposure to sound from personal music players does not pose a risk to hearing.” So it looks like this is a very limited adoption of only PART of the third edition for the sole purpose of personal music players. Here also is some information about 62368-1 that I gleaned from the IEEE ISPCE Symposium in San Diego in September: -2nd edition: has a "dow" Date of Withdrawal of January 2023; reportedly there is a CENELC vote going on right now to extend that (18 months?) so it can continue to be valid as we wait for the 4th edition -3rd edition is still dead [as a harmonized standard for LVD] -4th edition is being voted on, perhaps in January 2023, and so may soon be approved simultaneously by both IEC and CENELEC. Reportedly the committee has been working closely with the EU to avoid the problems that sunk the 3rd edition as a viable harmonized EN standard. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 11/01/2022 9:45 AM Scott Xe wrote: > > > Dear All, > > On 16 Aug 2022, OJEU listed EN 62368-1 2020 without a deadline of an > enforcement date. Normally it will have a transitional period of 18 or 24 > months. Does it mean to take effect immediately without a transitional > period from EN 62368-1 Ed2 : 2014 to EN 62368-1 Ed 3 : 2020? > > > Thanks and regards, > > Scott > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses
Brian -- Good to hear from you! Re your question, it is not clear who the "they" is who is requesting a list of misuses. >From my working experience, we (on advice of Legal) usually did not try to >compile a list of misuses in the operating manual, on the theory that if a >creative user found another (dangerous) misuse that was not on our list, they >might conclude that it must be safe because it wasn't on our misuse list. We >emphasized how to use our equipment correctly, and what the scope of its >applications were. However, we would clearly identify in some warnings what not to do where we perceived that to be a foreseeable misuse. Hope this helps! Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 10/05/2022 1:01 PM Brian Kunde wrote: > > > My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and > determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite > range of uses. > > Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning > section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses. There > are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause a > hazard. The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all > cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some > reason, this answer is not acceptable. We are expected to come up with > something. > > Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this > requirement? > > How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer > while taking a bath? Don't use it to mow your lawn? Common > > I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid > warnings we had to put in the manual. > > Thanks to all. > > The Other Brian > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] To NRTL or not NRTL, that is the question
My recollection is that NFPA 70 does require various equipment to be listed, but I am not sure that NFPA 70 directly links to that OSHA web site. It would seem odd to me for a consensus standard like NFPA 70 to include requirements that could potentially be changed by OSHA without following a consensus standards approval process. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 10/04/2022 11:48 AM James Pawson (U3C) > wrote: > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > Thank you for all the replies. Some of them confirmed my existing > understanding but there were more that revealed more questions. > > > > Summary of previous points (please call these out for lack of accuracy) > > > >1. Safety testing not explicitly based on any kind of voltage > threshold (like EU Low Voltage Directive) or on the presence of a Radio in > the equipment (like EU Radio Equipment Directive) >2. NRTL approval and marking can be mandated by a number of sources: > 1. If the equipment is used in a workplace where the employer > has more than 50 staff then the employer has to comply with OSHA requirements > for all equipment used on site, or; > 2. If the product falls under the one of these safety approval > standards > https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/list-standards > then it requires listing? or; > 3. Some large retailers e.g. Walmart insist on NRTL listing for > any products carried as a liability reduction exercise, or; > 4. Some large retailers may insist on use of a particular NRTL > e.g. UL even though others are available, or; > 5. Local jurisdictions (e.g. LA, California) require NRTL for > consumer >3. NRTL selection > 1. UL has become a generic term for NRTL certification like > “hoover” instead of “vacuum cleaner” > 2. Check list of NRTLs > https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/current-list-of-nrtls > and verify that they are recognised for the specific standard > > > Questions > > > Is my understanding of Point 2.b above correct? Bernd mentioned that this > requirement comes from NFPA 70? > > > Specific application > > > The product in question is a motion sensor used in building control > systems. It is powered off a maximum of 36VDC and has a power consumption of > less than 1W. > > > Following the EU standards trail, EN 60730-1 would be the most relevant > Harmonised Standard. I can see the equivalent UL 60730-1 in the list of > safety approval standards. > > > Does that mean NRTL approval is required as per point 2.b above? Or is > NRTL use still a matter of choice if it doesn’t fall under point 2? > > > I’m just trying to give the best advice to my customer. I appreciate > Scott’s well word comments of “better to go through the process and reduce > liability” so I appreciate the risk/liability dimension to this question. > > > All the best > > James > > > James Pawson > > Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver > > > Office hours: > > My mornings are reserved for full attention on consultancy, testing, and > troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. > > I am otherwise contactable between 1300h to 1730h from Monday to Friday. > > For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on > he...@unit3compliance.co.uk mailto:he...@unit3compliance.co.uk or call 01274 > 911747. > > Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks. > > > > Unit 3 Compliance Ltd > > EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : > Consultancy > > > > www.unit3compliance.co.uk http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/ | > ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk > > +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 > > 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL > > Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 > > > > > > From: James Pawson (U3C) > Sent: 27 September 2022 08:20 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] To NRTL or not NRTL, that is the question > > > Hello experts, > > > I'm trying to understand what electrical products require NRTL approval > for electrical safety for sale in the United States. > > > Looking on the OSHA website I find this page > (https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/
Re: [PSES] Cybersecurity?
Oh, I just learned something about that: Requirements coming in under Article 3.3 (d) (e) and (f) of RED (Radio Equipment Directive), and effective August 1, 2024. See EU Delegated Regulation 2022/30. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 10/03/2022 3:24 PM Chris Brown > <1ca53b7356f5-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Doug, > > > Yes, the EU has a new cybersecurity requirement for IoT devices (WiFi, > Bluetooth, etc.) – basically anything wireless. This is probably why you are > being peppered with emails. > > > I would expect to see a lot more about this topic as implementation dates > get closer. > > > Chris > > > > Chris Brown > Team Lead Compliance > t 800-265-1844 - Ext 1380 > t 519-455-9675 - Ext 1380 tel:,1380 > > https://www.startech.com > > [Mobile Workforce solutions] > http://www.startech.com/mobile-workforce-solutions > > [Facebook] https://www.facebook.com/Startechdotcom [Linkedin] > http://www.linkedin.com/company/startech-com [Twitter] > https://twitter.com/STARTECHdotCOM [Contact us] > https://www.startech.com/ContactUs > This email from StarTech.com, including any attachments, may contain > confidential and/or privileged information for the intended recipient(s) only > and the sender does not waive any related legal rights or privilege. Any use > or disclosure of the information by an unintended recipient is unauthorized > and prohibited. If you have received an email message in error, please delete > the entire message, including attachments if any, and inform us by return > email. > > > From: Douglas E Powell > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2022 4:10 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] Cybersecurity? > > > All, > > > > In the last few months, I've received a number of inquiries from > recruiters thinking I have an interest in Cybersecurity. Many of these come > to me via LinkedIn and I realize the word "compliance" shows up in many > disciplines such as legal, financial, medical, etc. But now it seems all the > recent hype into Cybersecurity and I.T. Compliance has created a fair bit of > "noise"; and in my case as it is never related to EMC or Product Safety. > Although I suppose Regulatory Compliance could be construed... > > > > I am curious to know if others on this forum are seeing a similar > increase in inquiries, or is it just me? > > > > Thanks, Doug > > > > Douglas E Powell > > Laporte, Colorado USA > > doug...@gmail.com mailto:doug...@gmail.com > > LinkedIn > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fcoloradocomplianceguy%2F=05%7C01%7CChris.Brown%40startech.com%7Cf07d4ff668b746a743d108daa57b51ab%7C0bf3d7afc3864a2b87b016e76addfb23%7C0%7C0%7C638004246350695221%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=ccRg86UxBR57bOgDpVBe8e5aXovN5YZ8EUOAyx%2B7oGs%3D=0 > > > > (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=05%7C01%7CChris.Brown%40startech.com%7Cf07d4ff668b746a743d108daa57b51ab%7C0bf3d7afc3864a2b87b016e76addfb23%7C0%7C0%7C638004246350695221%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=vZ9T9qFDhFtCiwqr4zesA%2FlcWUnGrmu%2BX%2FK6WOrc1O4%3D=0 > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=05%7C01%7CChris.Brown%40startech.com%7Cf07d4ff668b746a743d108daa57b51ab%7C0bf3d7afc3864a2b87b016e76addfb23%7C0%7C0%7C638004246350695221%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=IEYoMCKdrEWxiPswxr07lAUUESd%2F2OAQmlayZQ7e7wM%3D=0 > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html=05%7C01%7CChris.Brown%40startech.com%7Cf07d4ff668b74
Re: [PSES] Cybersecurity?
I was wondering why I was getting emails asking me to participate in cyber surveys! Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 10/03/2022 3:09 PM Douglas E Powell wrote: > > > All, > > In the last few months, I've received a number of inquiries from > recruiters thinking I have an interest in Cybersecurity. Many of these come > to me via LinkedIn and I realize the word "compliance" shows up in many > disciplines such as legal, financial, medical, etc. But now it seems all the > recent hype into Cybersecurity and I.T. Compliance has created a fair bit of > "noise"; and in my case as it is never related to EMC or Product Safety. > Although I suppose Regulatory Compliance could be construed... > > I am curious to know if others on this forum are seeing a similar > increase in inquiries, or is it just me? > > Thanks, Doug > > Douglas E Powell > Laporte, Colorado USA > doug...@gmail.com mailto:doug...@gmail.com > LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/ > > (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] To NRTL or not NRTL, that is the question
Many retailers who sell consumer goods will require NRTL marking on electrical goods as part of their purchase contract with you. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 09/27/2022 5:03 PM Knudsen, Patty > <1c82e1717b3f-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > OSHA regulates the USA workplace, but a lot of local USA jurisdictions > (Los Angeles, California, for one) require NRTL approval for consumer > products. There are many NRTL agencies (UL, CSA, Nemko, Intertek, TUV are a > few) that can do the job. > > > Patty > > > > From: Kevin Robinson > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 5:03 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] To NRTL or not NRTL, that is the question > > > [CAUTION: External Email] > > > OSHA requires any electrical product being used in the workplace to be > tested and certified by an NRTL. There is no lower voltage or power limit. > > > A “UL Listing” and “NRTL Certification” are the same thing. The > difference being the UL Listing is a NRTL Listing specifically from UL > (similar to the difference between “Kleenex” and “facial tissue” > > > Kevin Robinson > > > Get Outlook for iOS > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef=05%7C01%7CPatty.Knudsen%40Teradata.com%7C115a6b328a05434a84a708daa0804228%7C9151cbaafc6b4f4889bb8c4a71982138%7C0%7C0%7C637998769973197017%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=ySnb3rJt%2BBKJ2YdX%2FYR%2Fe8flLWTmWro16CvNdSpXSp4%3D=0 > > > - > > From: Dürrer Bernd mailto:bernd.duer...@wilo.com > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:56:08 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > Subject: [PSES] AW: [PSES] To NRTL or not NRTL, that is the question > > > Hello James, > > > > I propose to check Annex A of the National Electrical Code NFPA 70 (NFPA > 70®: National Electrical Code® > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nfpa.org%2Fcodes-and-standards%2Fall-codes-and-standards%2Flist-of-codes-and-standards%2Fdetail%3Fcode%3D70=05%7C01%7CPatty.Knudsen%40Teradata.com%7C115a6b328a05434a84a708daa0804228%7C9151cbaafc6b4f4889bb8c4a71982138%7C0%7C0%7C637998769973197017%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=nXBDZv1ceZH16GjMFzGLQyLm7K3D%2FP8ZA%2BOqdOSqR08%3D=0 > ) that contains a list of product safety standards used for product listing > where listing is required by the NEC. If the equipment in question is in the > scope of a standard mentioned there, it requires listing (i.e. certification > by a NRTL as defined in NEC article 110.3(C)). > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Bernd > > > > Von: James Pawson (U3C) mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. September 2022 09:20 > An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Betreff: [PSES] To NRTL or not NRTL, that is the question > > > Hello experts, > > > I'm trying to understand what electrical products require NRTL approval > for electrical safety for sale in the United States. > > > Looking on the OSHA website I find this page > (https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/products-requiring-approval > > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.osha.gov%2Fnationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program%2Fproducts-requiring-approval=05%7C01%7CPatty.Knudsen%40Teradata.com%7C115a6b328a05434a84a708daa0804228%7C9151cbaafc6b4f4889bb8c4a71982138%7C0%7C0%7C637998769973197017%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=iCx%2FZk5P5x4XAejFLjamQ2Y%2B1vfPdnHood%2BhB6nGlOY%3D=0 > ) which links to this page ( > > https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/1910-references#1910_303-307 > > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.osha.gov%2Fnationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program%2F1910-references%231910_303-307=05%7C01%7CPatty.Knudsen%40Teradata.com%7C115a6b328a05434a84a708daa0804228%7C9151cbaafc6b4f4889bb8c4a71982138%7C0%7C0%7C637998769973197017%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=wIjwXYAyHKykRDcgLHlBTPrkMMiEuJKO3TpPEWfNYsM%3D=0 > ) > > > Taking this at face value, particularly 303(g)(2)(i), doe
Re: [PSES] EN62368 HBS - Rationale document or other background source?
Marko -- Take a look at a synopsis of IEC 62368-2. I think this may meet your needs. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC Product Safety Consulting > On 07/12/2022 6:19 PM Marko Radojicic > <052300254e41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Is there any document or other source that explains how the requirements > & limits were chosen in the 62368 Hazard Based Standard? > > Barring that, I believe members of this list participated in that > standard's development. I would appreciate if you would like to discuss. I am > also open to a SME providing consulting services. For the latter, it would be > best to unicast to me rather than reply to the entire group (per the IEEE > emc-pstc guidelines, as I understand them). > > Thanks, > Marko > radojic...@yahoo.com > mr...@amazon.com > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies
Brian -- My gut is that it's reasonable to expect a UL/CSA marking on a 3-phase 460 VAC motor, but that listings for pumps are quite a bit rarer. Are there unique hazards associated with the pump should it fail? If not, I'd concentrate on the motor marking. Contact me off this list-serve if you'd like to discuss more. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC Product Safety Consulting > On 06/30/2022 2:00 PM Brian Kunde wrote: > > > I am confused and frustrated. We have an industrial product that > includes a small water recirculation tank which includes a motor/pump > assembly that is powered by 230V/360V/460Vac 3-phase. Our NRTL inspectors > says this pump assembly must have UL, CSA, or equivalent. Here is a website > that shows the type of assembly we are looking for: > > https://www.graymills.com/fm-series.html > > The trouble is, Graymills, Granger, Dayton, etc. doesn't provide NRTL > markings on the pumps that meet our functional requirements. They all say > that most of their customers do not require these marks so they only offer a > few models that do. > > How can this be? Am I missing something? Some say that manufacturers can > get the pumps approved as part of a certification of the entire machine, but > how can the pump be evaluated by a system integrator who doesn't manufacture > the pump, nor has any constructional information? Wouldn't it HAVE to be > done by the motor manufacturer? > > I keep asking our NRTL Field Inspector if he would accept such a product > and the answer is no. Our CSA inspector also says no; it must have CSA or > equivalent on the motor and/or motor/pump assembly. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > The Other Brian > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] NFPA Code Adoption
Doug -- All I can find is this: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=2 which suggests that no revision activity is currently going on. Page 3 of the standard shows Heath Dehn as the NFPA staff liaison; you could contact Heath to see what they know about what you're looking for, and to also get a sense of where the committee is in the revision cycle. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 05/10/2022 11:13 AM Douglas E Powell wrote: > > > All, > > In the past, I've used the NFPA 70 NEC Code Adoption web page > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps many times > and even keep a web monitor to track periodic updates. Now I find myself > wanting something similar for the NFPA 2 Hydrogen Technologies Code. Does > anyone know if such a web page exists? > > Thanks! -Doug > > Douglas E Powell > Laporte, Colorado USA > doug...@gmail.com mailto:doug...@gmail.com > LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/ > > (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] UK plug adaptors with fuse?
I've used Power Connections products for years: https://www.powerconnections.co.uk/ They may have something for you, or might be able to point you in the right direction. There seem to be endless unapproved "travel adaptors" available, but relatively few seem to have any certifications. What is an acceptable occasional risk for a tourist may not be an acceptable risk for a manufacturer to ship with their product. As I recall, the Swiss also have a specific certification standard they require for plug adaptors. The Swiss regulators have been very helpful to me in the past in understanding these requirements. Mike Sherman Sherman PSC LLC > On 04/27/2022 6:46 AM Kim Boll Jensen > <199f0011b1e3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > Hi > > We have been checking several travel adopters for importers here in EU, > but we have to fail nearly all of them. > > One big issue is the UK plug. As I understand they shall comply with BS > 1363-3. And in this standard §12.4 e) there is a requirement for BS 1363 or > BS 643 fuses. > > Some adapters have an 5x20 IEC fuse some have thermo fuses and many have > no fuse at all. > > Do I overlook some exceptions or new requirements, that allows adaptors > without BS fuse, or are they all just "normal" Asian low quality? > > Med venlig hilsen / Best regards, > > Kim Boll Jensen > Bolls Aps > 22 99 69 91 > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] NOM Mexico safety mark annual renewal required?
Chuck -- My recollection is that under NOM-001-SOFI-2018 there are three modules. My old company used to work under the module that required annual renewals, like yours; we occasionally looked at the other two, but did not go down those routes. I suggest that you get a translated copy of NOM-001-SOFI-2018 from https://mexicanlaws.com/ and look at Appendix C, which is where I think these modules are described. At least one of the longer term modules required factory inspections. Then talk to your labs to figure out your ROI on the various options. Mike Sherman > On 04/23/2022 6:04 PM Chuck August-McDowell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > General question on NOM Mexico safety mark. > > I seem to be in annual renewal programs with three different labs, > > Does anyone know of a longer than one year NOM registration program? > > > Our product are mostly certified under NOM-001-SOFI-2018. > > Samples and fees are required. > > > Possible use of CB based program? > > > > Thank you, > > > Charles August-McDowell > > > NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information. Please see > https://meyersound.com/legal/#email-policy for our complete policy. - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] RFID Reader Integration
Brian — Be careful! Although very low powered, regulators still want to regulate! We bought an RFID chip and created the antenna via a trace on the board. Guess what—that meant there was no modular approval=we got to do lots of testing! Next time we’ll choose differently. Mike Sherman On 02/22/2022 11:36 AM Brian Kunde wrote: I know nothing about the regulatory requirements of an RFID Reader but I assume it has a transceiver so it is considered an Intentional Radiator. If I buy a reader over-the-counter in one country, can I use it in another country? Or, like WiFi and Bluetooth, do I have to have a Reader that is Certified for every country/market? If I want to integrate an RFID reader into an electronic device or machine, can I buy pre-certified modules for a worldwide market? Or will I have to have the entire electronic device certified? What are my options? Any insight would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current
Doug -- Thanks for mentioning this! Yes, I've seen these 30 mA RCDs or RCCBs before, but not an RCBO (confused? Google can explain these acronyms). I've even recommended these for large machinery. The ones we used had adjustable trip points up to 30 mA. Note that I recommended these for MACHINE protection, not PERSONAL protection. The theory was to monitor potential breakdown of the dielectric of the machine by watching the ground leakage current. As I recall, early on we found, before it failed completely, a variable speed fan drive motor with bridged dielectric that was grounding out through a shaft bearing. I'd love to hear what PETE PERKINS has to say about this! Personally, given that North American GFCIs for 120 VAC have trip points of 4-6 mA, I've tended to not like to exceed that number. As I recall, Pete has demonstrated that even 5 mA will be a current to remember if you conduct it. That said, I think Pete told me a while back that the NEC is raising the allowable leakage current for EV chargers to something quite above 5 mA. I'm sure there's a good story behind that. Note also that GFCIs, and as I recall the RCD we were using, could fail silently and thus needed to be tested regularly to ensure continued protection. Mike Sherman > On 02/03/2022 8:23 AM Doug Nix wrote: > > > Hi Mark, > > I’ve seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage > currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North > America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA > will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can > be startling the first time you see them “in the wild”. > > Doug Nix > d...@ieee.org mailto:d...@ieee.org > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > > > > On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark > <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > wrote: > > Hello, > > Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU? > > IEC 60204-1 provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having > > earth leakage currents higher than 10 mA”. This seems quite high so we > > have applied the 3.5 mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC > > 60335-1. Is there another source for leakage current limits that is > > machinery-specific? There is nothing in the type-C standard for this > > product type. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark Stultz > > > > > > - > > > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail > > to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities > > site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > F
Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current
Mark -- Interesting question! I would agree with 3.5 mA for cord and plug connected stationary equipment up to several HP. However, note that 8.2.6e) of 60204-1 describes cord and plug connected equipment with leakage above 10 mA. However, I think that a quite large piece of machinery that could fall under the scope of 60204-1 might well have leakage currents above 10 mA, making it hard to set an absolute limit. As 8.2.6 suggests, such a high current is probably best addressed by very robust grounding, as well as bonding. Note also that for North America, UL limits are generally quite lower than 3.5 mA. Mike Sherman Retired Product Safety Engineer > On 02/01/2022 12:24 PM Stultz, Mark > <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU? IEC > 60204-1 provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having earth > leakage currents higher than 10 mA”. This seems quite high so we have > applied the 3.5 mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1. > Is there another source for leakage current limits that is > machinery-specific? There is nothing in the type-C standard for this product > type. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark Stultz > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] [PSES] CE marked products
There’s a useful summary of European plug requirements in an annex to 60335-1. Also note that Switzerland allows adaptors for some smaller products but not some larger ones. The people in the Swiss group regulating this have been quite helpful in educating me on their rules in a positive way. Mike Sherman On 01/26/2022 8:47 AM John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Scott In the UK (don’t know about Eire) the law (UK Plug & Socket Regs 1994 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/made) Clause 9 require that an appliance with a non-UK plug be supplied with a suitable “conversion plug” that does meet UK requirements and will fit a standard UK 13A socket. Suitable “conversion plugs” are widely available in the UK. John E Allen W. London, UK From: scott...@gmail.com Sent: 26 January 2022 14:39To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: [PSES] CE marked products In general understanding, products bearing CE Mark are free movement in the EU. I doubt how can they do it. For example, a Euro plug is fitted in the product. How can it operate in Ireland where UK plug is common? Do the products mark the CE Mark incorrectly or must the products comply with all national deviations in the LVD standard (some EPSs do supply different plugs but costly & not common on products)? Did I miss something in the requirements to look after this scenario? Appreciate the guidance to read the requirements correctly! Thanks and regards, Scott - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL Standards - Old School Spacings
Doug -- Joe Musso, staff engineer at UL, might be worth contacting. About 10 years ago I was is a similar position with what I considered an outdated spacings table in UL 1450. Joe was the staff engineer supporting 1450 at the time. What Joe suggested, and what ended up working out well, was adding UL 840 (which is aligned with IEC 60664) as an alternate acceptable spacings requirement. This ballot item was easily approved and we never looked back. So we sidestepped any discussion of the old spacings table, but Joe might know more about why he wanted to keep it and what its origins are. Let me know if you need any language examples from the new section in UL 1450. BTW, anyone can write a proposed change to any UL standard at any time---you don't have to be on the committee. Copying language from another approved UL standard (e.g., 1450) gets you off to a strong start. And please share what you find out about these table values! thanks, Mike > On 01/25/2022 12:26 PM Douglas E Powell wrote: > > > All, > > I'm interested in learning the history behind what I call old school > spacings found in UL standards. In recent years there has been considerable > progress toward harmonizing UL spacings to international standards, derived > from IEC 60664-x. However, still today I encounter many UL standards with the > old spacings table (interpolation is not allowed). > > > > > > Circuit Ratings > > V > > Minimum Spacings > > Through air > > Between parts of opposite polarity, > > live and non-current carrying parts > > and live and ground connections > > mm (in) Over surface > > Between parts of opposite polarity, > > live and non-current carrying parts > > and live and ground connections > > mm (in) > > 30 - 50 1.6 (1/16) 1.6 (1/16) > > 51 - 1503.2 (1/8) 6.4 (1/4) > > 151 - 300 6.4 (1/4) 9.5 (3/8) > > 301 - 660 9.5 (3/8) 12.7 (1/2) > > 661 - 1000 19.1 (3/4) 19.1 (3/4) > > > > > > I've had more than a few "discussions" with design engineers about tables > like this since the numbers seem very arbitrary, and I have to agree. The > most frequent trouble I have is trying to explain why an increase of just 1 > volt over 300V results in such a large jump in the over surface requirements. > Usually I am forced to end with, "it is what it is, and we have to follow the > rules". > > Any thoughts? > > -Doug > > Douglas E Powell > Laporte, Colorado USA > doug...@gmail.com mailto:doug...@gmail.com > LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/ > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Notice about LVD compliance in a DoC for machinery?
While I pay close attention to the Guide, I am doubtful that going against its guidance to, in effect, over document, is sufficient to invalidate a DoC. I have not ever encountered resistance to listing both MSD and LVD---has anyone on this listserv? Mike Sherman > On 01/17/2022 10:54 AM Charles Grasso wrote: > > > Other that the fact that the statement is "the manufacturer’s EC > Declaration of > conformity shall not refer to the LVD but to the MD".? > > My guess is that you could invalidate the DoC if you violate that > requirement. > > > Chas > > On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:41 AM Oliver Betz mailto:list...@gmx.net > wrote: > > > > This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: > owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org > > > > Hi all, > > > > the "Guide to application of the Machinery Directive 2006/42/EC", > > Edition 2.2: https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/38022 states: > > > > "...Thus, whilst machinery with an electrical supply, which is not > > in > > any of the categories listed in Article 1(2) (k) of MD, shall > > fulfil the > > safety objectives of the LVD, the manufacturer’s EC Declaration of > > conformity shall not refer to the LVD but to the MD". > > > > Yet, EN60204-1:2018 is listed in the LVD summary of harmonised > > standards. > > > > Would it harm to state also the LVD conformity in a DoC for > > machinery? > > > > The above mentioned guide writes that the DoC "shall *not* refer to > > the > > LVD but to the MD" but I'm not sure about the intention behind. > > > > And we have problems with Turkish customs insisting that the DoC > > shall > > list also LVD compliance. > > > > I wonder whether / how I can phrase an elegant note on the LVD > > compliance. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Oliver > > > > - > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail > > to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities > > site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > > unsubscribe) > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Jim Bacher: mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > > Charles Grasso > > Dish Technologies > > (c) 303-204-2974 > > (h) 303-317-5530 > > (e ) charles.gra...@dish.com mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com > > (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com mailto:chasgra...@gmail.com > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy q
Re: [PSES] Notice about LVD compliance in a DoC for machinery?
In my opinion, the Guide is making too fine a distinction. I know that when I examine a DoC for electrically powered machinery, I expect to see both the MSD and LVD. This gives me some assurance that the manufacturer has considered both aspects. Also in my experience, Turkish customs sometimes prefers their own logic over that expressed in the Guide or similar documents. I would just list both MSD and LVD on the DoC. Just be sure your technical file is clear. Mike Sherman Retired Product Safety Engineer > On 01/17/2022 10:40 AM Oliver Betz wrote: > > > Hi all, > > the "Guide to application of the Machinery Directive 2006/42/EC", > Edition 2.2: https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/38022 states: > > "...Thus, whilst machinery with an electrical supply, which is not in > any of the categories listed in Article 1(2) (k) of MD, shall fulfil the > safety objectives of the LVD, the manufacturer’s EC Declaration of > conformity shall not refer to the LVD but to the MD". > > Yet, EN60204-1:2018 is listed in the LVD summary of harmonised standards. > > Would it harm to state also the LVD conformity in a DoC for machinery? > > The above mentioned guide writes that the DoC "shall *not* refer to the > LVD but to the MD" but I'm not sure about the intention behind. > > And we have problems with Turkish customs insisting that the DoC shall > list also LVD compliance. > > I wonder whether / how I can phrase an elegant note on the LVD compliance. > > Any ideas? > > Oliver > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: > David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] machinery that is moving while working, wot CE requirements
Pete -- Machinery Safety Directive Annex I, sections 1 and 3, maybe even 4. Look at the 12 December 2012 Guidance for the MSD for detailed interpretations of what's in and out of scope, and how to apply various EHSRs. Might even be some Type C EN and/or ISO standards. Get a manual on line of a similar CE marked product and find their declaration and see when they're using. EMC Directive There are likely vehicle specific EN EMC standards to pay attention to. We prefer working with labs that have experience on what applies and what doesn't re vehicular EMC. WEEE and RoHS Directives You are likely outside of scope as professional off road machinery; the definitions for such equipment vary slightly between these two directives. There are FAQs for these on the official EU website. Noise Directive Read the scope and review the examples carefully. You may or may not be in scope. Homologation This seems to only apply if you will be driving the machine down the highway in traffic, but you might want to check. Can get really messy. Requirements can vary by country as I recall. Mike > On 12/05/2021 6:35 PM Pete Perkins > <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > All, I have a client that is producing a machine that moves while > working – such as a fork lift or lumber carrier. > > >Trying to understand the CE requirements for such > equipment. > > >What Directives apply? What technical standard apply? > What other regulatory issues arise? > > >Let me know what the requirements are. > > > :>) br, Pete > > > Peter E Perkins, PE > > Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant > > PO Box 1067 > > Albany, ORe 97321-0413 > > > 503/452-1201 > > > IEEE Life Fellow > > IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer > > www.researchgate.net http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins search > my name > > p.perk...@ieee.org mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org > > > > Entropy ain’t what it used to be > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Product Safety Engineer Openings at Graco in Minneapolis
Graco Inc., due to growth and my upcoming retirement, now has two open Product Safety Engineer positions at our Minneapolis office: Product Safety and Compliance Engineer II https://graco.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Graco_Careers/job/Minneapolis-Minnesota-USA-Tech-Center/Product-Safety-and-Compliance-Engineer-II_R0010382 Product Safety and Compliance Engineer III - Senior https://graco.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Graco_Careers/job/Minneapolis-Minnesota-USA-Tech-Center/Product-Safety-and-Compliance-Engineer-III---Senior_R0011404-1 Contact me with any questions. Mike - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
We have found "pre-screening" EMC testing early in the development cycle to be a good investment. EMC test results can be notoriously hard to predict, even when using EMC-savvy design principles. Extra PCB board spins are cheap in the context of a larger or time critical project. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 05/24/2021 2:58 PM John E Allen > <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > “From much experience” I can only concur with Pete, Monrad and yourself – > safety, EMC & RoHS compliance must be explicitly built into the Product > Lifecycle structure and process. Failure to do that, and to then make sure > that that all WORKS is a route to “painful”, time-consuming and expensive > results (“been there and seen that” – and recounted that here - far too many > times!). ☹ > > > > John E Allen > > W.London, UK > > > > > > > > > > From: Richard Nute > Sent: 24 May 2021 19:45 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time? > > > > > > Hi Charles: > > > > Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with > third-party testing, from a product safety point of view: > > > >1. The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able > to predict the outcome of any test. >2. Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction. >3. Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays > the third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule. To > maintain schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is > submitted to the third-party. >4. If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party > test, then your or the third-party test was in error. This can open a > dialogue between you and the third-party as to test process. >5. Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always > record the measurement. If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the > stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement. Both tell > you the margin between pass and failure. >6. Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit > the product. If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, > some third-parties will do their own investigation as to why. > > > > In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same > principles. > > > > Stay safe, and best regards, > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time? > > > > Hello EMC gurus! > > > > Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the > Unintentional Emissions > test first time? > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: &
Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests
Rich Nute has 3 Technically Speaking columns on this that can be found at the In Compliance magazine website. The first is here https://incompliancemag.com/article/derivation-of-ground-impedance/ and I find it quite informative. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 05/12/2021 8:01 AM Wiseman, Joshua > wrote: > > > > I agree with Brian. I’ve been involved with product safety over 20 yrs > and worked for an NRTL for about 6 of those. > > > > The 40 A requirement came from the Canadian electrical code and all the > NRTLs. > > > > The only exemptions I’ve seen to the 100 % ground bond requirement has > been for Class II and Class III devices or devices using an external power > supply (brick or wall-wart styles.) > > > > Josh > > > > From: Brian Kunde > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 8:42 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests > > > > EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action > > > > 61010-1 § 4.1 says, "Tests in this standard are TYPE TESTS to be carried > out on samples of equipment or parts. Their only purpose is to check that the > design and construction ensure conformity with this standard. In addition, > manufacturers shall perform the ROUTINE TESTS of Annex F on 100 % of > equipment produced which has both HAZARDOUS LIVE parts and ACCESSIBLE > conductive parts." > > > > 61010-1 Annex F, § F2 calls out the "Protective earth" test, also known > as the Ground Bond Test, as a required test to be performed on 100% of > production. Note the "NOTE" that says, "No value is specified for the test > current.". So some NRTL inspectors allow the ground bond test in production > to be performed at any reasonable current value, but most will follow the > requirements of 6.5.2. > > > > > > I have been doing Product Safety for over 30 years and have worked with > UL, CSA, TUV, NEMKO, EOLAS, etc., and all of them require 100% testing of > production units to both the Highpot test and the Ground Bond test. > > > > Regarding the 100mΩ verses 200mΩ question, all the NRTL inspectors I have > worked with require the measured impedance of the Power Cord to be no more > than 100mΩ. Note the UL/ANSI/CSA Deviation to 6.5.2.4 that instead of the > 100mΩ requirement has a "shall not cause a potential drop of more than 4 V". > At a minimum 40 A ground bond test, a 100mΩ impedance would give you a 4V > drop. It doesn't say anything about an 8V drop for non-detachable power > cords. So NRTLs are going to stick with the 100mΩ across the board, I > believe (this is opinion). > > > > Hope this information is helpful. > > > > The Other Brian > > > > > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 11:27 PM Steve Brody mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net > wrote: > > > > > > So here is my question, or actually two of them: > > > > > > > > First, one of my clients has been told by their 3rd party NRTL that > > a ground bond test is required as part of factory/production routine tests, > > even though it is not required by 61010-1. I have never run into this > > requirement in my work history and I would be interested in hearing if any > > of you have. > > > > > > > > Second, just to be sure my interpretation is correct, 61010-1, > > section 6.5.2.4, Impedance of protective bonding of plug-connected > > equipment, in the fist sentence, it has a limit of 100 mOhms impedance and > > my read is that this is for equipment with a power cord that has a plug on > > one end and a receptacle on the other. > > > > > > > > Then, in the same section, still under the title of plug-connected > > equipment, it says for equipment that has a non-detachable power cord the > > limit is 200 mOhms. My interpretation is that plug-connected equipment > > with a non-detachable power cord is when the power cord is hard wired to > > the unit under test, but still has a plug for mains connection. > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and you can reply here or privately to > > stev...@productehsconsulting.com mailto:stev...@productehsconsulting.com > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Directive 2006/42/EC for motorized adjustable height table
Scott -- 1. I tend to not list a harmonized standard unless I've applied all of its requirements to my machine. 2. Some of the standards you mention are for EMC, not MD. Mike > On 05/04/2021 9:51 AM Scott Xe wrote: > > > > It applies the harmonised standard EN ISO 12100 to assess the product for > the compliance of MD. In the conformity report, it validates each clause > using a few standards such as EN 60335-1, EN 527, EN 55014-1:2017+A11:2020, > EN 61000-3-2:2019, EN 62233 : 2008 etc. Is it necessary to quote all the > standards or just EN ISO 12100 only in the DoC inside the instructions manual? > > Thanks and regards, > > Scott > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Schuko CEE 7/7 Plugs for Appliances Sold in Italy?
PSES group -- Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. Two additional resources were identified during the search that I want to share: This is a fascinating and useful collection of plugs and sockets: http://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/ One PSES member reported that the answer to the Italian question could be found here: https://www.ceinorme.it/it/ However, my Italian and Google Translate were not sufficient to find the answer here. Reportedly the answer is that it is legal to sell appliances with CEE 7/7 Schuko plugs in Italy, even though finding compatible receptacles might be a challenge. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 04/29/2021 7:06 PM rwell...@wellman.com wrote: > > > > You can look at: > > > > https://www.power-plugs-sockets.com/ > > > > or > > > > Power plug and outlet check when traveling abroad | World-Power-Plugs.com > https://world-power-plugs.com/ > > > > Otherwise, call the Italian Embassy in Washington, D.C. > > > > Best regards, > > Ron Wellman > > > > From: MIKE SHERMAN > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 3:51 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] Schuko CEE 7/7 Plugs for Appliances Sold in Italy? > > > > Is it legal to appliances in Italy that have Schuko CEE 7/7 plugs? > > All my Wikipedia research says that this is common. > > Is there a government regulatory body that can answer this? I could not > find an answer on the mise.gov.it website, or a contact to ask. > > > > Thanks! > Mike Sherman > > Graco Inc. > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Schuko CEE 7/7 Plugs for Appliances Sold in Italy?
Is it legal to appliances in Italy that have Schuko CEE 7/7 plugs? All my Wikipedia research says that this is common. Is there a government regulatory body that can answer this? I could not find an answer on the mise.gov.it website, or a contact to ask. Thanks! Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Product Safety Engineer Position--Minneapolis
Our product safety group at Graco is expanding; please see this link: https://graco.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Graco_Careers/job/Minneapolis-Minnesota-USA-Tech-Center/Product-Safety-and-Compliance-Engineer-II_R0010382 This position comes as Graco continues to grow and introduce a stream of new products for sale world wide. Please contact me with any questions about this position. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] FCC Emissions on Industrial Equipment
Brian -- I'm also interested in hearing from our group on the FCC question. Regarding Europe: be careful on applying 55011. Read the scope closely. It is my belief that it applies to a much narrower subset of industrial machinery than the generic heavy industrial standards 61000-6-2 and 61000-6-4. Mike > On 01/12/2021 11:21 AM Brian Kunde wrote: > > > I am working on the first Industrial Machine of my career so I could use > some advice and clarification regarding the requirements for FCC emissions. > > I have been told by many that in North America, Industrial Equipment does > not have to be tested, verified, or anything for FCC by the manufacturer of > the equipment. Is this true? I was told that interference is unlikely, even > if the equipment exceeds the FCC emissions limits. Meeting the FCC limits > is recommended, and voluntary, but not required. True? > > > On the other hand, Europe is not so. If EE equipment goes to Europe, it > has to pass the EN 55011 emissions test as well as the immunity tests. Is > that correct? > > > Any additional information that would be helpful to me would be > appreciated. > > The Other Brian > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] TRAVEL ADAPTORS-EU regulation that forbids use in professional equipment?
It looks very promising. My only hesitation is that the two screws that hold this together do not appear to be tamperproof, which is a requirement for these types of adaptors in Australia, but may not be a requirement in the UK. I would think you should be able to find a helpful regulator in the UK who could address this, or maybe even the people at PowerConnections. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 12/15/2020 12:27 PM Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) > <123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Good afternoon all > > Going back to this question, I found below plug approved BS1363, fixed > and with a BSI Kitemark Licence No. KM 23223 > > Do you think it is appropriate for use even is adaptor? > > Thank you > > > > https://www.powerconnections.co.uk/convert_eurotouk_scp3.htm > > > > Kind Regards / Saludos cordiales / Mit freundlichen Grüßen > > > > Daniel Rodríguez > > Sr. Equipment Compliance Specialist EMEA > > T +34 673556249 > > E drodrig...@ecolab.com mailto:drodrig...@ecolab.com > > ecolab.com > > > > From: Chris Wordley > Sent: Thursday, 19 November 2020 18:06 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] TRAVEL ADAPTORS-EU regulation that forbids use in > professional equipment? > > > > Caution: This email message originated from outside of the organization. > DO NOT CLICK on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. If you think it is suspicious, please report as > suspicious. > > > > Hi Daniel > > > > See Part II of the UK regulations > https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/made/data.pdf > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/made/data.pdf__;!!Nkc5UzxO!5bnEuetog05FWI9IYaQ8TjbnVczVKNNE72vHu7mzwPo4lr9TT_KFafPnWHaAs8Nn$ > > > > > Best Regards > > > Chris Wordley > Senior Consultant > email: chris.word...@conformance.co.uk > mailto:chris.word...@conformance.co.uk > Direct Line: 01298 873817 > > Mobile: 07856 520321 > > > > Join us for CE marking training - Click here to see our scheduled courses > for 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.conformance.co.uk/our-services/ce-marking-training-risk-assessment__;!!Nkc5UzxO!5bnEuetog05FWI9IYaQ8TjbnVczVKNNE72vHu7mzwPo4lr9TT_KFafPnWMH6FgnD$ > > > > > Conformance Limited. The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, > SK17 8RG England > > Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.conformance.co.uk/__;!!Nkc5UzxO!5bnEuetog05FWI9IYaQ8TjbnVczVKNNE72vHu7mzwPo4lr9TT_KFafPnWLyKgMs-$ > Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 > > > > > > > > On 19 Nov 2020, at 15:15, MIKE SHERMAN > mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > wrote: > > > > > > > > For Switzerland, the adaptor must be certified to SEV1011 and must > > be "fixed." Be aware that most "travel adaptors" are not certified and are > > not fixed. > > > > I found the authorities in Switzerland to be quite helpful; contact > > me directly for more information. > > > > Mike Sherman > > > > Graco Inc. > > > > > > > > > > On 11/19/2020 8:49 AM Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) > > > <123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > > > mailto:123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good morning all > > > > > > I got from engineering that they want to provide a plug > > > adaptor for Europe plugs instead of adding the cord and each European > > > plug (UK, Germany, Switzerland,). This is only for professional use > > > as the user is trained > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that it is not advisable and the best is to use a IEC > > > 60320 connector but... > > > > > > Do you know if there any EU country regulation that forbids > > > expressly to use it? If yes can you provide the link > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your support! > > > > > > >
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Will there be an IEC electrical safety standard for E-cigarettes?
s appears to be IEC 60335 for “Household and > Similar Electrical Appliances - Safety.” > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Joe Randolph > > Telecom Design Consultant > > Randolph Telecom, Inc. > > 781-721-2848 (USA) > > j...@randolph-telecom.com mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com > > http://www.randolph-telecom.com > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randolph-telecom.com%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624108768%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=Vy8N8Xa2F89IK2phz3mHCIgY3BmhC5Ac66f72m9hs2M%3D=0 > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624118762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=1my8vZNLGvCRVLKbynXu2NKdGziKktqoYScoaOyeq1A%3D=0 > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624118762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=YCkm%2Fa4xYPMMZFLMQHO3GsQUQuqyiW4VG9Di4NKnkjE%3D=0 > can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624128763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=9uMQuzb4fQPUCQdCKX8v%2BfpELUr8HdGvUT0IZm1pz%2FY%3D=0 > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624128763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=4ZTVjv7dbcBREr1UVcU2ZCaPEwpqEMIcLYXY7%2F84En8%3D=0 > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624138756%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=AfbsncNIEy%2F0BIknf5TRewvpxVxIy6T7MKFJ1k2tugM%3D=0 > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7417761dd08d89d425bbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637432255624138756%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=zHJvYD144sKhk4MHece3jBE4cZ3v8WDM4uroJjlvbaE%3D=0 > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C15f96a7862c7
Re: [PSES] TRAVEL ADAPTORS-EU regulation that forbids use in professional equipment?
Regarding requirements in France and Germany: you might try contacting their regulators directly. That's how I found out about the Switzerland requirements. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 11/27/2020 1:53 AM Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) > <123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Thank you every body for your support > > Then the summary is accepted but with the right certifications. > > Switzerland certified to SEV1011 and must be "fixed" (I understand that > cannot easily removed) > > UK certified for BS 1363 > > > > Do you know if they are any similar requirement for France & German? > > Thank you for your support and happy holidays for USA members! > > > > > > Kind Regards / Saludos cordiales / Mit freundlichen Grüßen > > > > Daniel Rodríguez > > Sr. Equipment Compliance Specialist EMEA > > T +34 673556249 > > E drodrig...@ecolab.com mailto:drodrig...@ecolab.com > > ecolab.com > > > > From: Chris Wordley > Sent: Thursday, 19 November 2020 18:06 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] TRAVEL ADAPTORS-EU regulation that forbids use in > professional equipment? > > > > Caution: This email message originated from outside of the organization. > DO NOT CLICK on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. If you think it is suspicious, please report as > suspicious. > > > > Hi Daniel > > > > See Part II of the UK regulations > https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/made/data.pdf > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/made/data.pdf__;!!Nkc5UzxO!5bnEuetog05FWI9IYaQ8TjbnVczVKNNE72vHu7mzwPo4lr9TT_KFafPnWHaAs8Nn$ > > > > > Best Regards > > > Chris Wordley > Senior Consultant > email: chris.word...@conformance.co.uk > mailto:chris.word...@conformance.co.uk > Direct Line: 01298 873817 > > Mobile: 07856 520321 > > > > Join us for CE marking training - Click here to see our scheduled courses > for 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.conformance.co.uk/our-services/ce-marking-training-risk-assessment__;!!Nkc5UzxO!5bnEuetog05FWI9IYaQ8TjbnVczVKNNE72vHu7mzwPo4lr9TT_KFafPnWMH6FgnD$ > > > > > Conformance Limited. The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, > SK17 8RG England > > Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.conformance.co.uk/__;!!Nkc5UzxO!5bnEuetog05FWI9IYaQ8TjbnVczVKNNE72vHu7mzwPo4lr9TT_KFafPnWLyKgMs-$ > Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 > > > > > > > > On 19 Nov 2020, at 15:15, MIKE SHERMAN > mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > wrote: > > > > > > > > For Switzerland, the adaptor must be certified to SEV1011 and must > > be "fixed." Be aware that most "travel adaptors" are not certified and are > > not fixed. > > > > I found the authorities in Switzerland to be quite helpful; contact > > me directly for more information. > > > > Mike Sherman > > > > Graco Inc. > > > > > > > > > > On 11/19/2020 8:49 AM Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) > > > <123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > > > mailto:123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good morning all > > > > > > I got from engineering that they want to provide a plug > > > adaptor for Europe plugs instead of adding the cord and each European > > > plug (UK, Germany, Switzerland,). This is only for professional use > > > as the user is trained > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that it is not advisable and the best is to use a IEC > > > 60320 connector but... > > > > > > Do you know if there any EU country regulation that forbids > > > expressly to use it? If yes can you provide the link > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your support! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards / Saludos cordiales /
Re: [PSES] ROHS and DoC
Brian's proposal has, in my opinion, the advantage of concisely communicating that he has considered the presence of the four phthalates. > On 11/22/2020 8:30 AM Scott Xe wrote: > > > > Brian, > > > > My view is that is it necessary to do so? When you sign a DoC for RoHS > compliance, the product must fully comply with RoHS Directive 2011/65/EU (all > amendments are included) at time of signing. Otherwise it is not a correct > DoC. Although it does not reach the deadline now, you need to sign another > one before the deadline replacing the current one when it will be becoming > invalid. RoHS Directive 2011/65/EU is the main directive and has many > amendments, not only 2015/863/EU. I did not see any DoCs with all amendments > included. > > > > Regards, > > > > Scott > > > > From: Brian Kunde > Sent: Sunday, 22 November 2020 01:26 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] ROHS and DoC > > > > Because we provide DoCs translated into over 30 languages, we try to > avoid text that has to be translated. Our type of products do not have to > comply with these new regulations until next year, but when we do, we plan to > use the same nomenclature that is used for the amendments of Standards by > using the Plus Sign (+). So under the RoHS Directive, we plan to list it like > this: > > > > 2011/65/EU + 2015/863 > > > > Does anyone see any issue with this? > > > > Regards, > > The Other Brian > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:26 PM Scott Douglas mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > I used to get complaints I was not up to date when I said > > 2011/65/EU as amended. Now I say 2011/65/EU as amended by 2015/863. No more > > complaints. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 12:57 PM Charlie Blackham > > mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Amund > > > > > > Whilst 2015/863 updates 2011/65/EU, you do not CE mark to it. > > > The DoC must be to 2011/65/EU > > > > > > Some people concentrate a lot on 2015/863 but there have been > > > far more Delegated Directives dealing with exemptions than just this one > > > dealing with substances > > > (https://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/rohs_eee/legis_en.htm) > > > > > > Best regards > > > Charlie > > > > > > Charlie Blackham > > > Sulis Consultants Ltd > > > Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 > > > Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ > > > Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Amund Westin > > mailto:am...@westin-emission.no > > > > Sent: 21 November 2020 10:01 > > > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > > mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > > Subject: [PSES] ROHS and DoC > > > > > > For EU compliance, I assume Directive 2011/65/EU is still the > > > correct reference to use? > > > I see several parties who is referring to 2015/863 in their > > > DoC, but isn't that reference just a replacement for Annex II in > > > 2011/65/EU? > > > > > > Best regards > > > Amund > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering > > > Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send > > > your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web > > > at: > > > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > > > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online > > > Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used > > > for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. > > > > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > >
Re: [PSES] ROHS and DoC
Brian -- I like your approach; simple. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 11/21/2020 11:26 PM Brian Kunde wrote: > > > Because we provide DoCs translated into over 30 languages, we try to > avoid text that has to be translated. Our type of products do not have to > comply with these new regulations until next year, but when we do, we plan to > use the same nomenclature that is used for the amendments of Standards by > using the Plus Sign (+). So under the RoHS Directive, we plan to list it like > this: > > 2011/65/EU + 2015/863 > > Does anyone see any issue with this? > > Regards, > The Other Brian > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:26 PM Scott Douglas < sdouglas...@gmail.com > mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > I used to get complaints I was not up to date when I said > 2011/65/EU as amended. Now I say 2011/65/EU as amended by 2015/863. No more > complaints. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 12:57 PM Charlie Blackham < > > char...@sulisconsultants.com mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com > wrote: > > > > > > > Amund > > > > > > Whilst 2015/863 updates 2011/65/EU, you do not CE mark to it. > > > The DoC must be to 2011/65/EU > > > > > > Some people concentrate a lot on 2015/863 but there have been > > > far more Delegated Directives dealing with exemptions than just this one > > > dealing with substances ( > > > https://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/rohs_eee/legis_en.htm) > > > > > > Best regards > > > Charlie > > > > > > Charlie Blackham > > > Sulis Consultants Ltd > > > Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 > > > Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ > > > Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Amund Westin < am...@westin-emission.no > > > mailto:am...@westin-emission.no > > > > Sent: 21 November 2020 10:01 > > > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > > mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > > Subject: [PSES] ROHS and DoC > > > > > > For EU compliance, I assume Directive 2011/65/EU is still the > > > correct reference to use? > > > I see several parties who is referring to 2015/863 in their > > > DoC, but isn't that reference just a replacement for Annex II in > > > 2011/65/EU? > > > > > > Best regards > > > Amund > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering > > > Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send > > > your e-mail to < emc-p...@ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web > > > at: > > > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > > > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online > > > Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used > > > for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. > > > > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including > > > how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > > > > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > > Scott Douglas < sdoug...@ieee.org mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > > > Mike Cantwell < mcantw...@ieee.org mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > > > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > > Jim Bacher: < j.bac...@ieee.org mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > > David Heald: < dhe...@gmail.com mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering > > > Society emc-pstc discussion list. To p
Re: [PSES] TRAVEL ADAPTORS-EU regulation that forbids use in professional equipment?
For Switzerland, the adaptor must be certified to SEV1011 and must be "fixed." Be aware that most "travel adaptors" are not certified and are not fixed. I found the authorities in Switzerland to be quite helpful; contact me directly for more information. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 11/19/2020 8:49 AM Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) > <123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Good morning all > > I got from engineering that they want to provide a plug adaptor for > Europe plugs instead of adding the cord and each European plug (UK, Germany, > Switzerland,). This is only for professional use as the user is trained > > > > I know that it is not advisable and the best is to use a IEC 60320 > connector but... > > Do you know if there any EU country regulation that forbids expressly to > use it? If yes can you provide the link > > > > Thank you for your support! > > > > Kind Regards / Saludos cordiales / Mit freundlichen Grüßen > > > > Daniel Rodríguez > > Sr. Equipment Compliance Specialist EMEA > > T +34 673556249 > > E drodrig...@ecolab.com mailto:drodrig...@ecolab.com > > ecolab.com > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail communication and any attachments may > contain proprietary and privileged information for the use of the designated > recipients named above. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original > message. > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?
When faced with a similar situation a few years ago in a smaller jurisdiction, the local AHJ had us send a formal request to the state fire marshal regarding why interpreting their existing code in light of the latest NFPA version made sense. We did and the state fire marshal blessed it. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. Sent from Xfinity Connect App -- Original Message -- From: Joe Randolph To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: October 30, 2020 at 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not? Yes, apparently, the authority to impose an electrical code rests with the individual states (and sometimes individual jurisdictions with a given state). I’m not sure why, but there is probably some constitutional reason why this is controlled by the individual states rather than the Federal government. I did not mention this in my earlier attempt at providing a “simple answer,” but I believe certain states, such as California, have their own electrical code and do not simply call out NFPA 70. And, I think certain cities have their own codes. So, the individual states are not acting in unison. Scott points out another problem with the current situation of having local authority over the electrical code. Namely, that different jurisdictions use different editions of NFPA 70 as their local electric code. Updated editions of NFPA 70 are issued every three years. I work a lot with communication equipment that is covered by Chapter 8 of NFPA 70. Over last several years some significant changes have been made in Chapter 8, mostly in terms of revising outdated requirements to better address new communications technology. Significant changes were made in the 2017 edition, and again in the 2020 edition. Unfortunately, some jurisdictions are still using older versions, as early as the 2008 edition. Typically, the adoption of a specific edition requires a vote of the State Legislature, and they sometimes fail to update their laws when a new edition comes out. This makes it challenging to take advantage of the clarifications/improvements that have been incorporated into newer editions of NFPA 70. Fortunately, most electrical inspectors are open to considering the latest edition of NFPA 70, even if their local law refers to an earlier edition. However, they are not obligated to do so. Joe Randolph Telecom Design Consultant Randolph Telecom, Inc. 781-721-2848 (USA) j...@randolph-telecom.com (mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com) http://www.randolph-telecom.com (http://www.randolph-telecom.com/) From: Scott Aldous [mailto:scottald...@google.com] Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 11:41 AM To: Joe Randolph Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not? I agree with Joe. Since jurisdictions across the US do not adopt the same revision of NFPA 70 (https://www.nema.org/docs/default-source/technical-document-library/nec-adoption-map.pdf), mandating a single edition at the federal level could be problematic. On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:15 AM Joe Randolph mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com)> wrote: > > Hi Doug: > > > > > > The short answer is that compliance with NFPA 70 is, in fact, the law in most > states and localities. > > > > > > Most states have passed laws that require compliance with NFPA 70. In these > states, when the electrical inspector visits a site, the code book used to > determine compliance with the state’s electrical code is NFPA 70. > > > > > > I think the situation is similar to the ITU standards, which are officially > called “Recommendations” and do not, by themselves, have the force of law. > However, the laws in many countries call out certain ITU standards. > > > > > > Similarly, UL standards in the USA are not, by themselves, legally binding. > However, many UL standards are called out by law by OSHA and in state > electrical codes (which typically call out NFPA 70). > > > > > > > > > Joe Randolph > > > Telecom Design Consultant > > > Randolph Telecom, Inc. > > > 781-721-2848 (tel:(781)%20721-2848) (USA) > > > j...@randolph-telecom.com (mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com) > > > http://www.randolph-telecom.com (http://www.randolph-telecom.com/) > > > > > > From: Douglas Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 10:00 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG (mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG) > Subject: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not? > > > > > > My Friday Question, > > > > > > > > NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not laws." > > > > > > > > I recently saw a clarification stating: > > > > > > "As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it has > > not been inco
[PSES] CENELEC Version of IEC 60335-1:2020
When can we expect EN 60335-1:2020? I can't seem to figure this out. :-) BACKGROUND IEC just published in September IEC 60335-1:2020. CENELEC, meanwhile, is working on A15 to EN 60335-1:2012. CENELEC also seems to be working on FprEN IEC 60335-1:2020, on an ambitious timeline, shown here: https://www.cenelec.eu/dyn/www/f?p=104:110:750801363390501FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_LANG_ID,FSP_PROJECT:,25,68486 However, there is a curious Note on this page: "2020-09-10 - WI abandoned: exempted from parallel by D164/C055 2020-06-10 TN: ballot is closed because it was wrongly submitted to vote (on an exempted work item) 2020-06-29: WI abandoned: exempted from parallel by D164/C055" QUESTION for someone who speaks "CENELECese": when should we expect to see an approved/released EN 60335-1:2020? Thanks! Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] removable access panels with warning decals
Chet -- For completely removeable belt guards, I have sometimes put warning labels on both the outside of the guard and on the permanent part of the machine underneath the guard---as a reminder to replace it. However, no safety standard reference immediately comes to mind. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 10/26/2020 3:50 PM Chester Summers > wrote: > > > > Greetings, all— > > > Is there a general machinery requirement that a service access panel on a > mains powered equipment somehow be permanently attached to the machine (e.g. > hinged) if the panel itself has warning decals affixed to it? > > I looked back in the PSES archive for a safety standard reference and > came up empty. I’m searching for standards-based guidance on permanence of > the access panel itself, if it happens to be completely removable and is > therefore at some risk of being misplaced. > > > Thank you and best regards, > > Chet Summers > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it from Charles Machine Works > are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity > to which they are addressed. - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge
I've seen some motor caps on industrial induction motors whose capacitance gave me pause. I think we specified a minimum bleed down time to allow before servicing. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 09/29/2020 10:21 PM Ted Eckert > <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Rich, > > > I can’t think of many cases of modern IT equipment with a significant > risk of capacitance discharge through the plug. However, I could foresee > motor-driven equipment where it could be an issue. The manufacturer might put > a power factor correction capacitor across the line to compensate for the > inductive load of the motor. The motor should bleed off the charge of the > capacitor, but there may still be some residual charge when the user pulls > the plug. You probably wouldn’t have that large of a capacitor on a > plug-connected motor appliance, but it is possible. > > > It’s been more than a decade since I worked with large motor-drive > appliances, so my memory of their workings isn’t great. I’m sure there is > somebody on this list server who can correct any error I’ve made in my > statements. > > > Ted Eckert > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer. > > > > > From: MIKE SHERMAN > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:58 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge > > > Rich -- > > > > Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the > early Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to > mess around inside. > > > > Mike > > > > > > On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute > mailto:ri...@ieee.org > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and > > products where a capacitive discharge into a body could take place. > > > > I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a > > power plug. I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that > > might discharge a capacitor into a body. > > > > I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not > > conjecture. Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault > > conditions. > > > > Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the > > safety standards? > > > > Stay safe! > > > > Rich > > > > > > - > > > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail > > to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Ca8096660ecf64f16acf708d864dbec24%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637370243010668967=wyt66u%2BpEXEvjVTYWnEV20RCNwuRbv64wnwHm7AQG%2BA%3D=0 > > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities > > site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Ca8096660ecf64f16acf708d864dbec24%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637370243010678928=VJc0gcOrtvgysRo64CiHEuFU7KUr1iJfrzSR6AsSGo4%3D=0 > > can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. > > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Ca8096660ecf64f16acf708d864dbec24%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637370243010678928=jHoFJWJeEwEbVsE%2B1JDepO6V5ZTMC0pSdlwpuNM9piE%3D=0 > > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > > unsubscribe) > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Ca8096660ecf64f16acf708d864dbec24%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637370243010688878=h61W7YR%2BfScbKxhUBnglTKMuTBV%2FRodWVogIeXfRHRo%3D=0 > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > >
Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge
Rich -- Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess around inside. Mike > On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute wrote: > > > > > I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products > where a capacitive discharge into a body could take place. > > I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power > plug. I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might > discharge a capacitor into a body. > > I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not > conjecture. Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions. > > Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety > standards? > > Stay safe! > > Rich > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Selling into the Ukraine
We've been EAC marking for a while, but I was not aware that the Ukraine was part of the EAC marking scheme. For EAC marking: -There are a few additional pieces of information required in the manual related to expected life, including when stored. -We are careful about what technical information we share. -We submit a Russian manual, plus Russian translations of the parts of our CE technical file that we share. Contact me separately if you have questions about EAC marking. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 09/22/2020 12:40 PM Steve Brody wrote: > > > Brian, > > One of my client's was going to sell into the Ukraine and was told they > needed an EAC mark on the product and that the CE was not valid in the EAC. > They did not proceed beyond that so I can not give you any further guidance. > > You can check EAC 3rd parties on line, I think. I had this discussion > with UL as to why Ukraine, and the EAC, would not accept the CB Scheme > report, which is why the client went that route, but the answer was that it > still needed to go through an EAC 3rd party before they would issue a mark. > And that included a physical product review and factory inspection. The > unanswered question then was what does the CB report buy me - no response. > > Client opted not to sell into the EAC. > > > > On 09/22/2020 12:53 PM Brian Kunde > wrote: > > > > > > Greetings All. > > > > All of a sudden we are having trouble with Ukraine. Before we even > > ship our product to the customer, we are being contacted by unknown > > companies who claim to be responsible to overlook the installation and > > perform "complex protocols" on our product. They are asking for EMC and > > Safety test reports among other R type of test data. Is this for real? > > > > Doing a Google search on this topic, it appears as though Ukraine > > should accept our CE Marking and Declaration from Europe. However, they are > > telling us that their laws changed and they no longer accept the CE > > marking. > > > > What is going on? Is there a simple way to satisfy whatever the > > new requirements are? > > > > I appreciate any help you can provide. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > The Other Brian > > > > > > - > > > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail > > to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities > > site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > > > > > Steve Brody > sgbr...@comcast.net mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net > C - 603 617 9116 > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Dougla
Re: [PSES] China Country of Origin Requirements
Steve — We haven’t run into Chinese COO requirements yet, but we pretty religiously mark our products. If you’re shipping electrical components into the PRC, be aware of the CCC mark, which is administered by tariff code and seems to be enforced. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2020, at 7:58 PM, sgbrody wrote: > > > Hi fellow gurus, > > A client has asked me if China requires country of origin labels on imported > products, specifically electrical manufacturing products and/or components. > > Any information greatly appreciated. Tou can respond openly here or > privately to me at stev...@productehsconsulting.com. > > Thanks, and stay safe and healthy, > > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Risk Assessment question
Doug -- Good summary! Bruce Main of Design Safety Engineering has published a couple of overview books on risk assessment; you can find them on his web site. If you can't get the Table of Contents somewhere, I can scan them for you. In my recollection, it's more of an overview of what standards are used in what industries, vs. which risk assessment standards are specifically called out in which product safety standards. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On 06/16/2020 5:49 PM Douglas Powell wrote: > > > All, > > Over the past several years, nearly all safety standards have > incorporated Risk Assessment (RA) as a part of their requirements. I did an > informal search and found that the assessment methods are used in a wide > range of disciplines from electrical products to machinery, robotics, safety > software controls, medical equipment, medical procedures, automotive, > aerospace, traffic control and even tree removal in municipalities. It is > very clear that safety professionals worldwide really do like this method and > I think it lends a certain comfort to a safety engineer's angst in marginal > situations. I probably shouldn't say it but in my personal opinion this is a > huge CYA exercise (cover your anatomy) for all involved. > > Usually the product RA goes before construction review, testing and > certification. It is often used to identify areas not covered well by the > body of the standard and where additional testing may be required. Virtually > all standards describing the use of RA mention the scheme found in FMEA/FMECA > of identifying a tasks, operations, or events and assigning numerical values > to the parameters of interest, followed by the product of these values to > identify level of risk. Commonly these parameters are severity, frequency of > exposure, and possibility of avoidance. Today the use of FMEA goes far beyond > design, manufacturing, and processes. > > Often times, a particular standard will say something like " documents > that can be used as guidance for the safety analysis include..." followed by > a short list of standards from IEC, EN, ISO, ANSI, MIL STD and so on. Notable > to me is the use of the word "can" or "may" which implies the user has some > leeway in selecting which document they prefer. Additionally, further > guidance is often given for "active" protection devices and software/firmware > controls for safety function (i.e. safety integrity levels and performance > levels). Once again, using the methodology of FMEA as a way of assigning risk > levels. > > So after all that, here is my question. Given wide-ranging product types > and use models, the long list of risk assessment standards, has anyone > produced a comprehensive list or matrix correlating products to applicable > standards? I believe a list such as this would be very helpful. > > Stay safe and stay frosty all, > > Doug > > -- > > Douglas E Powell > Laporte, Colorado USA > doug...@gmail.com mailto:doug...@gmail.com > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files,
Re: [PSES] EMO versus EMS
Regan -- Take a look at this article on Doug Nix's website: https://machinerysafety101.com/2010/09/27/emergency-stop-categories/ ABB also has an Emergency Stops Training Guide No. 2 available on the web that has some good, basic information. Mike Sherman Product Safety Engineer Graco Inc. > On May 14, 2020 at 11:35 AM Regan Arndt wrote: > > Greetings everyone. Hope all is well and you are safe during these times. > > Does anyone have a good article, whitepaper or anything that talks about > EMO and EMS (differences, etc.) other than what is in NFPA 79? > Specifically looking for a design guidance document of sort. Not much out > there on Google. > > Thanks in advance for sharing what you have. > > Regan Arndt > IEEE PSES SV Chapter Chair > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Anybody particularly adept at TESEQ Compliance5 Software?
Michael Violette, P.E. Director American Certification Body mi...@wll.com +1 240-401-1388 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Induction motor EMC
Derek -- Look in the EMC guidelines, near the front. I seem to recall that they state that induction motors are EMC "benign" and therefore do not need to be assessed. Mike > On April 19, 2020 at 8:51 PM DEREK WALTON > <00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > HI folks, > > I’ve been asked if there are any EMC requirements on induction motors. > Personally I’ve had mixed experience with these, orientation has proved > important to not making any emissions. > > My gut feel is that they should be inherently quiet and also immune, but is > there anything formal in the directive or product standards that excludes > them? > > Thanks, > > Derek. > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: > David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Fwd: Emergency Stop Function
Brian — Look on the web for Doug Nix. Good guy, knows his stuff. Mike Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App -- Original Message -- From: Brian Kunde To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: March 19, 2020 at 12:19 PM Subject: [PSES] Fwd: Emergency Stop Function If any of you have a Case of Corrona, I hope it is the type that comes in bottles or cans. First, there is a guy in this group who I chatted with in the past who is like an expert in the E-Stop function. He has a Blog or Website dedicated to this topic which I cannot currently find. Can anyone help me get in contact with him? My area of need is with integrating the E-Stop function with a Variable Frequency Drive (inverter). I have to meet the international requirements as well as the USA and Canadian requirements. What I have is 3-phase AC power, through a Contactor, to a VFD, which powers a 3-phase motor. The VFD has the motor brake feature built in. Under a normal STOP command, the VFD engages the motor brake. All is fine. The VFD manufacturer's documentation shows to connect the E-STOP to the motor Contactor which OPENs power to the VFD. When the E-Stop is engaged, power to the VFD is shut down; the motor continues to spin for up to 30 seconds or more before coming to a stop. The motor Brake does not engage because it is a feature of the VFD which is powered down. This makes no sense to me. The E-STOP is supposed to stop motion as quickly as possible without causing additional Risk (according to the MD and NFPA 79 cat.2). So how is the E-Stop function supposed to work with a VFD? How is this typically done? Are we buying the wrong VFD? Thanks to all. The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org (mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org) All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) (http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org (mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org) Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org (mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org) For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org (mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org) David Heald dhe...@gmail.com (mailto:dhe...@gmail.com) - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Construction Site Power Cords, Germany
Colleagues - I contacted DGUV on 29 January 2020 via their website to determine if "comparable work equipment" included such things as cord connected equipment that is not hand held. The 29 January response from their engineer Hans-Peter Steimel was that such equipment was indeed "comparable work equipment" because it was considered "mobile equipment, because it is possible to move them during operation or it can be moved easily from one location to another whilst connected to the supply circuit." This apparently stems from a different DGUV safety document, BGV/GUV-V A3 E, 1979, section 5(1)2, specifically its instructions for implementation. Thanks to all for you help! And thanks to Herr Steimel for his quick response. Mike Sherman Product Safety Engineer Graco Inc. > On January 29, 2020 at 8:29 AM "Bender, Curtis" > <10270e3f0a68-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > More info supporting Ted and Bernd… > > > > In answer to your question Does anyone know what is meant by "comparable > work equipment"? > > From a German colleague: Different equipment that is hand held during > usage. Hand held means also where the weight of the machine is supported > during holding a machine. Equipment which is hand-guided, like a vacuum > cleaner or a high pressure washer, you don’t have the weight supported by > hand as you are not carrying the machine in your hand. > > > > And… “within DGUV Information 203-006, section 5.1.5 there is an example > depicted (page 28 Abb. 14). > > > > I’ll forward you additional information under separate email. > > > > Curt > > > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer. > > __ > > Curtis Bender | IEEE Senior Member > curtis.ben...@tennantco.com mailto:curtis.ben...@tennantco.com > > > > > > From: Charlie Blackham > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 3:41 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Construction Site Power Cords, Germany > > > > Looking at an example cable spec for H07BQ-F > https://ajhcables.com/types-of-cable/rawflex-pur-cables/h07bq-f-halogen-free-pur-cable/ > several things jump out over and above a “normal” H05VV-F mains cable: > > * Extended temperature range > * UV resistance > * Lubricant/acid/alkali resistance > > > > Regards > > Charlie > > > > Charlie Blackham > > Sulis Consultants Ltd > > Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 > > Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ > > Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 > > > > From: Dürrer Bernd mailto:bernd.duer...@wilo.com > > Sent: 29 January 2020 08:29 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Construction Site Power Cords, Germany > > > > Hello Mike, > > > > the original German phrase is „Handgeführte Elektrowerkzeuge und > vergleichbare Arbeitsmittel“ (page 27 of > https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Arbeitsschuetzer/Gesetze_Vorschriften/Informationen/203_006.pdf > > https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Arbeitsschuetzer/Gesetze_Vorschriften/Informationen/203_006.pdf > ). I would translate „handgeführt“ rather as hand-operated or manually > controlled. The German term for hand-held is „handgehalten“, which is a > special case of hand-operated/handgeführt. In the original document, there is > an example illustration on page 28 that shows a wall chaser with integrated > dust collection system that is hand-operated, while the whole equipment is > portable, but not hand-held. > > > > So I agree with Ted’s interpretation that portable tools are in the scope > of “comparable work equipment”, but I would go even further that electrical > equipment that is temporarily fixed on the construction site (like hoists or > cranes) is also in the scope of this definition. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Bernd > > > > Von: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Januar 2020 08:53 > An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Betreff: Re: [PSES] Construction Site Power Cords, Germany > > > > You would probably have to ask for the meaning of the original vague > German phrase, because
[PSES] Product Safety Engineer Position--Minneapolis
https://chj.tbe.taleo.net/chj04/ats/careers/v2/viewRequisition?org=GRAC=45=4198 Contact me with any questions. Mike Sherman Product Safety Engineer Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Construction Site Power Cords, Germany
A German insurance document, DGUV Information 203-006 ( Selection and operation of electrical systems and equipment on construction and assembly sites ), has a requirement for either rubber or polyurethane jacketed power cables in its section 5.15: " Hand-held power tools and comparable work equipment These must at least correspond to protection class IP 2X and be equipped with a mains connection cable of type H07RN-F [rubber] or H07BQ-F [polyurethane]. " Does anyone know what is meant by "comparable work equipment"? thanks, Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber move
Try Raymond EMC. They do a lot of this kind of work. Contacts: Louis Feudi , Pete Schramm Michael Violette, P.E. Director American Certification Body mi...@wll.com +1 240-401-1388 > On Aug 23, 2019, at 10:32 AM, Wiseman, Joshua > wrote: > > We are facing the prospects of moving our EMC lab from one building to > another one. I’m working on information around the impact of such a move. > Does anyone have any input on the cost to move a 3m chamber. The walls a > ceiling would need the foam and ferrite panels removed prior to teardown and > then put back on after rebuilding. There is a small control room attached as > well. > > Not exactly sure of dimensions, but it’s around 30’ x 20’ x 24’. > > Thanks, > Josh > > Joshua Wiseman > Systems Engineering > Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC > Ortho Clinical Diagnostics > joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com > <mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com> > www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com <http://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/> > > > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, trade > secret and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient(s) > of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this > message to the intended recipient(s), do not review, retransmit, disclose, > disseminate, use, or take any action in reliance upon, this information. If > you received this transmission in error, please contact the sender and > destroy all printed copies and delete the material from all computers. In > connection with our business, Ortho Clinical Diagnostics may collect and > process your personal data. For further information regarding how we use this > data, please see our online privacy notice > athttps://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/en-us/home/privacy-policy > <https://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/en-us/home/privacy-policy> > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Branding Products and EU Decision 768 NLF
Brian — I call this “private labeling.” The EU and presumably the customer want a match between the company name on the product and company name on the declaration, hence the expectation that they be the same. The Blue Guide often has additional detailed guidance on things like this. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App -- Original Message -- From: Brian Kunde To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: August 15, 2019 at 3:43 PM Subject: [PSES] Branding Products and EU Decision 768 NLF I'm not a Marketing person, so I do not know the official term for it, but there is a method of doing business where one company buy/sells a product made by another company marked with the brand name and trademark of the marketing company.I've always called this "Branding", but like I said it may officially be called something else.Here is the situation in more detail: Company-A designs and manufactures a great Electronic Widget and will produce the Widget in your company's color (Company-B), your company's name on the manual,and with your company's name and trademark on the front of the Widget.Company-A's name and address is on the Nameplate Label on the back of the Widget. Company-A handles everything including the Conformity Assessment, Generating the EU-DoC, Applying the CE marking, audits, inspections, etc.. All you have to do is market and sell it. Here is the Problem:According to the EU Decision 768 document also known as the New Legislative Format, paragraph 26, "Any economic operator that either places a product on themarket under his own name or trademark should be considered to be themanufacturerand should assume the obligations of the manufacturer." Company-B accepts the responsibility and liability of the Widget but there are many tasks called out that the "Manufacturer" must do that Company-B cannot do, such as the conformity assessment. Paragraph 21 states, "The manufacturer, having detailed knowledge of the designand production process, is best placed to carry out the complete conformity assessment procedure. Conformity assessment should therefore remain the obligation of the manufacturer alone." Company-B can be responsible for the conformity assessment, but they cannot carry out the procedure because they do not possess the required detailed knowledge of the design or production process. A customer purchasing the Widget from Company-B asked for a copy of the EU-DoC. The customer would not accept the EU-DoC because it was generated by Company-A.The customer insisted that Company-B generates the EU-DoC because per the NLF, Company-B is the "Manufacturer" and so all documentation should be in the letterhead of Company-B.Does Company-B have the credentials necessary to generate the DoC? Must the DoC be in the letterhead of Company-B or should the customer accept the DoC generated by Company-A? Thanks to all. The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail toemc-p...@ieee.org(mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org) All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site athttp://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website:http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions:http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)(http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html) List rules:http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglassdoug...@ieee.org(mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org) Mike Cantwellmcantw...@ieee.org(mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org) For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacherj.bac...@ieee.org(mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org) David Healddhe...@gmail.com(mailto:dhe...@gmail.com) - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Seeking clean copy of a great EMC Design Tips
Maybe this: http://emcs.org/acstrial/newsletters/winter10/DesignTips.pdf Design Tips - IEEE Electromagnetic Compatibility Society<http://emcs.org/acstrial/newsletters/winter10/DesignTips.pdf> 85 Multiple Decoupling Capacitors in Printed Circuit Boards By Bruce Archambeault, Jingook Kim, Sam Connor, and Jun Fan I n the Spring 2009 issue of the EMC Newsletter, the Design Tips showed the typical inductance associated emcs.org From: Grasso, Charles Sent: July 16, 2019 11:23 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Seeking clean copy of a great EMC Design Tips Hi all, I have a great design tips article written by Bruce Archambeault in 2009 . Its title is High Speed Traces close to the Edge of a Reference plane. The pdf messed up the figures and some of the writing is illegible. Does any one have a clean copy? Thanks! Charles Grasso W: 303-706-5467 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Big Boot from List Server
I got this email for the first time last night. It says I’m unsubscribed now? So my main question is, have I actually been unsubscribed or is this a bogus email? Enquiring minds want to know. Thanks, Michael Sundstrom Garmin Compliance Engineer 2-2605 (913) 440 1540 KB5UKT "We call it theory when we know much about something but nothing works, and practice when everything works but nobody knows why." -- Albert Einstein From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 10:16 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Big Boot from List Server CAUTION - EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe. I received the same systematic notification last night as everyone else and have not done anything with it. I am receiving email today but I don’t think my post from earlier this morning went through. So we’ll see if this reply goes through or not. -Dave From: Brian Kunde [mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 11:05 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Big Boot from List Server Since the first of the year, I have been having trouble maintaining my subscription to this List Server. According to those who administrate this, the problems are all at our end but our eMail Administrator looked into it and said the problem that is being reported is outside our control (Phishing). So in early April, I switched to my Gmail account thinking that this move should resolve all the issues. Nope. Today I was booted again for 2 undeliverable emails. The problem is not my posts because I haven't posted since my last re-subscription. I don't know what else to try. Is anyone else having similar troubles? Any suggestions other than just re-subscribing every few weeks? I appreciate your input. The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-p
Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment
>> I always suggest to my clients to make their preferred test lab measure a >> client-owned comb generator prior to any testing in order to ensure the >> chamber continues to be reasonably consistent before real measurements are >> taken. >> >> It’s also very important to understand the test standards and EUT >> configurations well enough to ensure the test technician is setting up >> things correctly. I know of one case where the EUT cabling was configured >> wrong and their client repeatedly had emissions failures over weeks of >> retesting until the correct configuration was pointed out in the standard. >> >> Taking photos of the test setup is very important for day to day test >> consistency. A difference in one cable position can completely throw off >> repeatability and thus, mislead any troubleshooting efforts. >> >> What about ESD simulators? When was it verified last? Does the test lab even >> have the means to verify the correct tip voltage and pulse characteristics? >> >> Is all the measurement equipment calibrated and cal tags current? >> >> I could go on… >> >> My colleague, Ghery Pettit wrote a recent blog on the subject for >> Interference Technology: >> https://interferencetechnology.com/emc-laboratory-selection-audit-items/ >> <https://interferencetechnology.com/emc-laboratory-selection-audit-items/> >> >> Cheers, Ken >> >> ___ >> >> I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions >> related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy >> to help! >> >> Kenneth Wyatt >> Wyatt Technical Services LLC >> 56 Aspen Dr. >> Woodland Park, CO 80863 >> >> Phone: (719) 310-5418 >> >> Web Site <http://www.emc-seminars.com/> | Blog <https://design-4-emc.com/> >> The EMC Blog (EDN) >> <https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/4376432/The-EMC-Blog> >> Subscribe to Newsletter >> <http://www.emc-seminars.com/Newsletter/Newsletter.html> >> Connect with me on LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt/> >> >> >> >> On Apr 17, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Grasso, Charles > <mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>> wrote: >> >> To those wondering what the background and conclusion to that question was: >> >> Background: Our testing was performed in a newly minted chamber so >> proper >> EMC installation of our product was challenging. >> Effect: Ingress of high levels of external bb noise. >> Result: Proper install eliminated the external noise and >> now the system passed. >> >> Concern: While I accept that proper installation and operation of our system >> is our >> responsibility, I had expected that the tester would point to the excessive >> ambient >> and indicate that our data may not be valid. An inexperienced customer would >> have left thinking that their product had failed. >> >> Am I wrong? >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> Charles Grasso >> W: 303-706-5467 >> >> - >> >> - >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ >> <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> >> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> >> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> >> > > - >
Re: [PSES] CCC on Cooling Fans?
Brian -- Our experience is that CCC applies to various products according to their harmonized tariff code. The Chinese maintain a list of products, with their harmonized tariff codes, that fall under the scope of CCC. Additionally in our experience, those same components, when shipped as part of a finished end product, do not fall under the scope of CCC. Lastly, there is an exception for repair parts, but it seems to take some talking with local officials to implement this exception. Their stated concern seems to be wanting to ensure that calling them "repair parts" is simply not an excuse to import non-CCC parts and sell then to the broader market as component parts for new products. Our local employees in China had to work with local officials to implement this exception for some repair parts that we wanted to stock in China. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On March 5, 2019 at 10:43 AM Brian Kunde wrote: > > We received a strange request today from Hong Kong supposedly initiated > from Customs. > > We were asked to provide CCC supporting documents for about a dozen > cooling fans used in some of our instruments (laboratory equipment). I knew > CCC is required on household electrical fans but not small internal cooling > fans. The list of fans is a mixture of 230Vac fans and 24Vdc fans. > > Some of these fans were used in products that went obsolete 10 years ago > or longer. We may still ship them as repair replacement parts, but I thought > service parts were exempt. > > Is this a new requirement or do you think there is some kind of confusion > going on? > > Regards, > > The Other Brian > > PS: How many active EMC-PSTC members do you think there are? > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Standards
As a UL customer you can get the UL national deviations to IEC standards. You then have to stitch them together yourself. I've been a long time customer of Estonian Standards and recommend them. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On February 25, 2019 at 6:37 AM "Wiseman, Joshua" > wrote: > > > As a UL customer you don’t get access to the UL standards that are > harmonized with the IEC standards. UL says the copyright won’t allow it. > > > > I tend to get them from Estonian Standards Institute provided the EN > amendments have caught up with the IEC. > > > > Josh > > > > Joshua Wiseman > > Systems Engineering > > Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC > > Ortho Clinical Diagnostics > > > > From: Pete Perkins > [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org] > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2019 1:09 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards > > > > EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action > > > > Frank, If you are already a UL Certification customer you have access > to the UL version of the standard which applies to your product. This > standard is a NA/IEC harmonized standard and includes all of the IEC text > plus NA additions and deviations (all appropriately marked). Check the > available version of 61010-1 to ensure that it covers the amendments you are > seeking. > > > > :>) br, Pete > > > > Peter E Perkins, PE > > Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant > > PO Box 23427 > > Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 > > > > 503/452-1201 > > > > IEEE Life Fellow > > p.perk...@ieee.org mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org > > > > From: Frank Tang <0d3fa4ae712a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > mailto:0d3fa4ae712a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 1:37 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] Standards > > > > Hi PSTC community, > > Looking to purchase a copy of IEC 61010-1:2010 standard and saw there are > many revisions. > > Products will be utilized in a laboratory environment. > > > > Before purchasing a copy, would like to know the difference between IEC > 61010-1:2010/AMD1:2016 and > > IEC 61010-1:2010+AMD1:2016 CSV Consolidated version? > > Because there is quite a price difference,CHF 170 and CHF 700 > respectively. > > > > -- > Thank you and best regards. > - Frank > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http:
Re: [PSES] Rating & WEEE markings on lithium-ion rechargeable battery
Scott -- Don't forget that the Battery Directive requires that you provide customers with instructions on how to remove the battery at the end of life. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On February 20, 2019 at 11:06 AM Scott Xe wrote: > > The end product safety standards EN 60065 & EN 60950-1 consider the > compliance if lithium-ion rechargeable battery meets EN 62133. EN 62133 asks > for some rating markings and WEEE and battery Directives also ask for recycle > symbols. For individual selling on battery cells and packs, they must comply > with all markings. The users can reference to those markings for safe use of > those components. For end products such as clock radios, wireless > headphones, etc., the battery is bulit into the unit and not allowed to be > replaced or repaired by the customers. The markings are not useful for the > customers so those components are often NOT included all the markings. Is it > considered not to fully comply with EN 62133? Should the end product be > sufficient to comply with the markings specified by EN 60065 or EN 60950-1 > only? > > Since the end products have to be separated from household waste and the > rechargeable battery are required to be separated from household waste and > normal EEE waste, how can it be presented to the customers without leading > the confusion? > > Thanks and regards, > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Intro to Safety
Frank -- There is a book that was recently published that provides a fine overview of our profession as applied to electrical products. It is titled Electrical Product Compliance and Safety Engineering, by Steli Loznen, Constantin Bolintineanu, and Jan Swart. You can see the Table of Contents and the first two chapters on Google Books here: https://books.google.com/books/about/Electrical_Product_Compliance_and_Safety.html?id=24Q0DwAAQBAJ=frontcover=kp_read_button#v=onepage=false https://books.google.com/books/about/Electrical_Product_Compliance_and_Safety.html?id=24Q0DwAAQBAJ=frontcover=kp_read_button#v=onepage=false Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On February 15, 2019 at 1:15 PM Frank Tang > <0d3fa4ae712a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > Hi Compliance Peers, > I'm fairly new to compliance, with 4-5 years EMC experience on ITE > products for Americas, Europe, Asia, and some Nebs understanding. > Recently began a new opportunity, which encompasses EMC and Product > Safety for automation. > Only begun reading SEMI S2/S8, and IEC 61010-1. > My questions are: >1. Additional standards I should learn? >2. Besides EMC and Safety testing testing what other documents is > needed for safety, ie. critical component list? >3. How long does the whole process take? > Any help would be great. > > -Frank > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] A question about FDA language and interlocking devices
I see another probably more likely interpretation of "knife edge and finger stock" in this context. Look up a knife edge fuse on the internet. Presumably the socket the fuse seats in would be the finger stock. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On February 5, 2019 at 2:34 PM "Schmidt, Mark" wrote: > > > Please see test below: > > > > “Safety Interlocks [21 CFR 1020.40(c)(4)(i)]:Each door of a cabinet x-ray > system shall have a minimum of two safety interlocks. One, but not both of > the required interlocks shall be such that door opening results in physical > disconnection of the energy supply circuit to the high-voltage generator, and > such disconnection shall not be dependent upon any moving part other than the > door. [Note: Safety interlock is defined in 21 CFR 1020.40(b)(11).] > > > > The primary door interlock should be of conventional design. The second > door interlock must physically disconnect the energy supply circuit to the > high voltage generator. Physical disconnection means opening the energy > supply circuit by removing a piece of the circuit. This is usually > accomplished with a ‘knife-edge and finger stock’ or ‘plug and socket’ type > connection. It is good practice to assure the primary interlock will remove > power from the energy supply circuit before the physical disconnection > occurs. Relays, micro switches, and ‘safety switches’ all contain moving > parts and, therefore, cannot be used to satisfy the requirement that the > physical disconnect interlock is "not dependent on any moving part other than > the door."” > > > > Compliance Guide for Cabinet X-Ray Systems > https://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ucm094358.htm > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 12:31 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] A question about FDA language and interlocking devices > > > > That seems to make more sense. I don’t know anything about X-ray > requirements but the FDA requirements laser interlocks are not specific, only > referring to “interlocks”. > > -Dave > > > > From: MIKE SHERMAN [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 12:27 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] A question about FDA language and interlocking devices > > > > Doug -- > > > > "knife-edge and finger stock" sounds more like the gasketing around the > door to keep the radiation inside. I think you'll find similar gasketing on > doors to EMC chambers. I've not heard of this term applied to interlock > switches. > > > > Mike Sherman > > Graco Inc. > > > > > > > > On February 5, 2019 at 10:35 AM Doug Nix > mailto:d...@ieee.org > wrote: > > > > Colleagues, > > > > > > > > I had a question come my way yesterday that I need a little help > > with. Here’s the question: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a customer that produces X-ray equipment. The FDA > > > requires that the door that gives access to the X-ray source must have an > > > interlock with a ‘knife-edge and finger stock’ type connection. Also the > > > FDA mentions that interlocks should be of conventional design. What is > > > understood by “conventional design”? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My reading on this requirement is that any conventional > > electromechanical interlocking device like this: > > > > [Image result for keyed interlock switch images] > > > > will meet the basic requirements as described by the FDA as > > “knife-edge and fingerstock” connection, but I am concerned that this may > > not be at all what is meant. > > > > > > > > As always, any guidance you can offer will be welcomed and > > appreciated! > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Doug Nix > > d...@ieee.org mailto:d...@ieee.org > > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > >
Re: [PSES] A question about FDA language and interlocking devices
Doug -- "knife-edge and finger stock" sounds more like the gasketing around the door to keep the radiation inside. I think you'll find similar gasketing on doors to EMC chambers. I've not heard of this term applied to interlock switches. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On February 5, 2019 at 10:35 AM Doug Nix wrote: > > Colleagues, > > I had a question come my way yesterday that I need a little help with. > Here’s the question: > > > > > I have a customer that produces X-ray equipment. The FDA requires > that the door that gives access to the X-ray source must have an interlock > with a ‘knife-edge and finger stock’ type connection. Also the FDA mentions > that interlocks should be of conventional design. What is understood by > “conventional design”? > > > > > > My reading on this requirement is that any conventional electromechanical > interlocking device like this: > [Image result for keyed interlock switch images] > will meet the basic requirements as described by the FDA as “knife-edge > and fingerstock” connection, but I am concerned that this may not be at all > what is meant. > > As always, any guidance you can offer will be welcomed and appreciated! > > Best, > > Doug Nix > d...@ieee.org mailto:d...@ieee.org > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Brexit requirements for UK manufacturers.
Another way to look at it: the NRTLs are responsible for the work that they do, which is primarily checking products against product safety standards. However, for the manufacturer, complying only with the requirements of a product safety standard may not be sufficient to field an adequately safety product. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. > On January 18, 2019 at 9:50 AM John Woodgate wrote: > > > So their certification is a sort of 'whitewash', nothing more, if, as you > say, they bear no responsibility for the product actually being safe. > > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates http://www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2019-01-18 13:53, Schmidt, Mark wrote: > > > > > > If you read in to the contractual agreements you sign for these > > OSHA NRTL’s they are responsible for basically nothing and most likely > > would not support you in a court of law. However, some reputable labs that > > I have worked with that are not recognized by OSHA I believe would. Bottom > > Line: the manufacturer is ultimately responsible for their product. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org > > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Marine Safety question
Hello group, I have a question about IEC/EN 60950-22 and if it applies to equipment mounted on non-SOLAS marine vessels? Thanks, Michael Sundstrom Garmin Compliance Engineer (913) 440 1540 KB5UKT "Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." Earl Nightingale CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?
Thanks to all for the quick education! Now, follow up question: RED. Seems to me that this does use RF to communicate, so it seems to fall into scope of RED. Agree? Disagree? thanks, Mike > Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?On October 20, 2018 > at 2:40 AM Michael Derby wrote: > > > I agree with Michael that this needs to be tested and authorised > (certified) to FCC 15.225. > > > > > > Another Michael. > > > > > > > > > > From: Heckrotte, Michael [mailto:michael.heckro...@ul.com] > Sent: 20 October 2018 04:00 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach? > > > > Digital devices that have a power consumption not exceeding 6 nW are > exempt from specific technical standards per FCC Rules 15.103(f). > > > > There are no such exemptions for intentional radiators. See FCC Rules > 15.225 for radiated emission limits applicable to radio devices operating on > 13.56 MHz. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Mike > > > > From: Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 5:54 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach? > > > > I don’t know what the FCC rules are on something like this – others on > this forum are much better informed on that topic - but if the ERP is 0 dBm > (1 mW), then at three meters away the field intensity would be 58 mV/m, or 95 > dBuV/m. Now this is at 13.56 MHz, where there is no FCC RE limit. But the > FCC Class B three meter limit at 30 MHz is something like 40 dBuV/m (someone > jump in if I got this wrong) so that means the third harmonic must be 55 dB > down from the fundamental. That is certainly doable, but I wouldn’t take it > for granted without some sort of verification. > > Ken Javor > Phone: (256) 650-5261 > > > > - > > From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > > Reply-To: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net > > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 17:22:50 -0500 > To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > > Subject: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach? > > Esteemed fellow listers -- > > > > I'm looking at a very low power, intermittent NFC card reader/writer. > Alkaline battery operated device. NFC is only energized for 10 seconds at a > time on demand, and range to read/write is less than 1 cm from the surface of > the device. > > > > I'm not an EE, but my simplified thought process is: "I can barely get > this to couple magnetically with a card sitting on its surface. How could I > possibly interfere with broadcast services or other equipment?" > > > > So, oh wise ones, from your experience what actions with respect to FCC > are reasonable to do? For example, radiated emissions testing seems to me > like a total waste of time and money. > > > > More technical details: maximum input power to the NFC chip is 17 mW. > Chip is coupled to a flat 30mm x 40mm "NFC Ferrite Antenna (13.56 MHz)" that > my EE describes as "zero gain." We're rating RF output as 0 mW (i.e., > rounding off, it's a lot closer to 0 mW than to 1 mW). > > > > Looking forward once again to interesting wisdom from this group. > > > > Mike Sherman > > Graco Inc. > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site > at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org > > Mike Cantwell mailto:mc
[PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?
Esteemed fellow listers -- I'm looking at a very low power, intermittent NFC card reader/writer. Alkaline battery operated device. NFC is only energized for 10 seconds at a time on demand, and range to read/write is less than 1 cm from the surface of the device. I'm not an EE, but my simplified thought process is: "I can barely get this to couple magnetically with a card sitting on its surface. How could I possibly interfere with broadcast services or other equipment?" So, oh wise ones, from your experience what actions with respect to FCC are reasonable to do? For example, radiated emissions testing seems to me like a total waste of time and money. More technical details: maximum input power to the NFC chip is 17 mW. Chip is coupled to a flat 30mm x 40mm "NFC Ferrite Antenna (13.56 MHz)" that my EE describes as "zero gain." We're rating RF output as 0 mW (i.e., rounding off, it's a lot closer to 0 mW than to 1 mW). Looking forward once again to interesting wisdom from this group. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Equipment EMI Issue
Robert, the FCC “protects" licensed services. If you are interfering, even if you comply, you must remedy the interference because your equipment is not “protected.” We had a project where a data center was close to a cell tower and they had to shield the floor of a building to reduce the interference. Mike Michael Violette, P.E. Director American Certification Body mi...@wll.com +1 240-401-1388 > On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:52 AM, James Pawson (U3C) > wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > How have they identified conclusively that your equipment is responsible? > > James > > From: Moeller, Robert T. <mailto:robert.moel...@banctec.com>> > Sent: 26 September 2018 14:41 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: [PSES] Equipment EMI Issue > > Hello, > Maybe someone can help with this question: We have had one of our systems > installed and operating at a customer site in the US, and now suddenly a > local Cell Ph Company has made complaint that we have an unintentional signal > radiating at 780 MHz which is interfering with their Cell Tower. Our > equipment is EMC tested to CISPR Class A for business only use, and at 780 > Mhz our radiated Level at 3Meters is under the Class A limit of 57 dB at 780 > Mhz. Question is, can the complaining company legally demand that we drop > the signal further, they may be looking at a necessary reduction of current > level by 20 dB lower. > > Thank You > > > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] SEV Mark Required for Swiss Adapter Plug?
I’m looking for an adapter plug that allows a Schuko plug to be connected to a grounded Swiss receptacle. I have found one that is certified to IEC 60884-1 and IEC 60884-2-5. It does not have an SEV mark. Is an SEV mark required for adapter plugs to be used in Switzerland?Thanks,Mike Sherman Graco Inc. Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of machinery that moves about
Pete -- Things to consider: 1. Section 3 of Annex I of the Machinery Safety Directive. 2. There may be some Type C EN standards that are applicable, or from which you could glean some useful requirements. 3. Product might be out of scope of RoHS directive, if it meets the definition of professional off road mobile machinery. See Guideline to the RoHS directive for the finer points of this. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Pete Perkins" <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> To: "EMC-PSTC" Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2018 7:28:39 AM Subject: [PSES] CE marking of machinery that moves about Colleagues, I’ve been dealing with CE marking of machinery for some time but now am interested in a variation on that theme, machinery that moves. Think of a fork-lift or front loader each of which lifts a load and moves it before setting it down again. What additional requirements are placed upon such a machine. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 IEEE Life Fellow p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Lithium Ion batteries - capacity measurement
IEC EN 61960:2011, superseded recently by IEC EN 61960-3, contains a standardized way to measure battery capacity. Preview of the latter is available at: https://www.evs.ee/preview/evs-en-61960-3-2017-en.pdf Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Brian O'Connell" To: "EMC-PSTC" Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 12:38:43 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Lithium Ion batteries - capacity measurement Forgot to mention that battery impedance and internal temperature monitoring are two parametrics oft ignored; and both may explain much weirdness with battery performance. Brian -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 10:31 AM To: 'Charlie Blackham'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Lithium Ion batteries - capacity measurement Not clear what is being asked. Is context safety or purely performance? In any case, data from in vitro tests done with the intended end-use equipment are the 'ultimate' indicator. Should include the full range of rated operating conditions. The SAE, IEEE, IEC, Vulcan Science Academy, and others all have standardized test methods for battery capacity. Test equipment makers (Agilent, et all) have application notes on battery testing. If you use an electronic load to simulate the end-case use, it should use computer-driven profiles - humans tend to make of mess of this stuff where done manually. The nice thing about using electronic loads is that you can have the computer run many "what if?" load profiles. Brian From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 9:53 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Lithium Ion batteries - capacity measurement All Client is have a "discussion" with their battery vendor over how capacity of a 3.7V 1000 mAh battery is being measured/demonstrated: Are there any recommendations and/or mandatory requirements for charge/discharge current to be used to demonstrate battery capacity and capacity degradation over multiple cycles? For example: . maximum discharge in the end application normal use is 200 mAh, but the battery manufacturer wants to use 500 mA . one wants to use a "real load", but the other an "electronic load" The different methods appear to be giving different battery voltages for the same remaining capacity, and I would be grateful for any pointers to recommended or best practice Regards Charlie Charlie Blackham Sulis Consultants Ltd Mead House Longwater Road Eversley RG27 0NW UK Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com Web: www.sulisconsultants.com Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Italian Approval Marking on Power Cord
I’m familiar with the IMQ mark on power plugs for use on cord connected residential products for use in Italy. Is there a corresponding IMQ mark required on the power cord for use in Italy, or is another mark (e.g., VDE) accepted? Note: marked cable is not an option right now for me.Mike Sherman Graco Inc. Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text.
Brian —Good point to keep in mind! I was actually simply trying to do this for an internal document that is not too critical. Neat trick; frustrating that I couldn’t use it. Mike Sherman Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: Brian O'ConnellTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSent: July 3, 2018 at 5:56 PMSubject: Re: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text.Insertion of emoji, uncommon fonts from external tables, extended unicodes, etc into on-line documents can be problematic. And ability of a word processor running on Windoze, to find the correct table in a corporate setting, is also problematic.If for marketing, not much of an issue. If for a safety engineering publication, you might be making an irreproducible document. The First Order and the Klingon Empires will not tolerate an emoji in an official document, so only useable by a limited subset of some earthlings.Join the Empire. Crush the rebellion.BrianFrom: Mike Sherman [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 2:56 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text.Rich, Doug, et al --I was absolutely unable to type U+26A0 in Microsoft Word 2010 (running under Windows 7)) and get the exclamation point triangle to insert. I was able to get other symbols, such as the Aquarius symbol U+2652, to work. However, I can't get Rich's U+2614 to insert, either.My IS tech support guy suggested that Microsoft Word 2010 simply has not been updated to recognize this U+26A0 combination.Has anyone been able to get U+26A0 this to work in Microsoft Word? If so, what version?Rich: what versions of Word and Windows are you running?Some handy references in my quest:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_charactersandhttps://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2600.pdfThanks!Mike ShermanGraco Inc.From: "Richard Nute" To: "EMC-PSTC" Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:54:03 PMSubject: Re: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text. Hi Doug: Thanks. Here is a list of emoji codes to follow “U+” in Word and Outlook. I only tested one, U+2614, ☔, but I would guess they all work. I highlighted the code and then ALT x. http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11438-emoji-var.pdf Best regards,Rich From: Doug Powell Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:51 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text. All, I often wiU+2614shed for a way to simply "type" certain symbols within the text of a Word document instead of inserting graphics and then struggling with various text flow and alignment problems. Today I discovered a neat way to insert the triangle exclamation point symbol as text within a document using unicode characters (Not sure why this never occurred to me before). Open MS Word and simply type U+26A0, with no other punctuation or characters hit Alt-X and you get ⚠. From here you may resize, bold or use font coloring as needed (italics are a little weird). I believe this works in MS Word 2007 and onward, probably in MS Outlook and it appears to be working right here in my gmail account. These keystrokes do not work in MS Excel but you can copy/paste from a document as needed. This successfully printed to a PDF files as well. I have not tried using these codes in autocorrect just yet but hopefully that will work too. Sorry, I cannot speak to other platforms or software, just MS products on this one. With the vast array of unicode symbols, this opens a whole realm of possibilities for me when writing company documents and procedures. All the best, Doug -- Douglas E Powelldoug...@gmail.comhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01-This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.htmlFor help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee
Re: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text.
Rich, Doug, et al -- I was absolutely unable to type U+26A0 in Microsoft Word 2010 (running under Windows 7)) and get the exclamation point triangle to insert. I was able to get other symbols, such as the Aquarius symbol U+2652, to work. However, I can't get Rich's U+2614 to insert, either. My IS tech support guy suggested that Microsoft Word 2010 simply has not been updated to recognize this U+26A0 combination. Has anyone been able to get U+26A0 this to work in Microsoft Word? If so, what version? Rich: what versions of Word and Windows are you running? Some handy references in my quest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_characters and https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2600.pdf Thanks! Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Richard Nute" To: "EMC-PSTC" Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:54:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text. Hi Doug: Thanks. Here is a list of emoji codes to follow “U+” in Word and Outlook. I only tested one, U+2614, ☔, but I would guess they all work. I highlighted the code and then ALT x. http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11438-emoji-var.pdf Best regards, Rich From: Doug Powell Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:51 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Handy tip for inserting symbols in document text. All, I often wiU+2614shed for a way to simply "type" certain symbols within the text of a Word document instead of inserting graphics and then struggling with various text flow and alignment problems. Today I discovered a neat way to insert the triangle exclamation point symbol as text within a document using unicode characters (Not sure why this never occurred to me before). Open MS Word and simply type U+26A0 , with no other punctuation or characters hit Alt-X and you get ⚠ . From here you may resize, bold or use font coloring as needed (italics are a little weird). I believe this works in MS Word 2007 and onward, probably in MS Outlook and it appears to be working right here in my gmail account. These keystrokes do not work in MS Excel but you can copy/paste from a document as needed. This successfully printed to a PDF files as well. I have not tried using these codes in autocorrect just yet but hopefully that will work too. Sorry, I cannot speak to other platforms or software, just MS products on this one. With the vast array of unicode symbols, this opens a whole realm of possibilities for me when writing company documents and procedures. All the best, Doug -- Douglas E Powell doug...@gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Medical device risk assessment - faulty chargers
There are a number of documented cases of counterfeit or knock off Apple USB chargers that do not pass dielectric testing; a couple have been suspected in shock related deaths. This is an unstated background to this discussion. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Ari Honkala" <ari.honk...@sesko.fi> To: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:20:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] Medical device risk assessment - faulty chargers My first thought: what has the origin of the charger has to do with it being potentially faulty? Any device may broke; that's why there are requirements for single fault condition. with best regards, Ari Honkala -Original Message- From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick_willi...@conformance.co.uk] Sent: tiistai 10. huhtikuuta 2018 19:21 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Medical device risk assessment - faulty chargers Colleagues, EN 60601-1 3rd ed. requires the manufacturer to take a risk assessment based approach to the safety of their electrical medical products. With the increased used of universal USB power as a source for battery charging, it’s easy for the risk assessment to identify use of the medical device with a potentially faulty charger either because the device manufacturer has not included a USB power adapter/charger wth the product or because the user has chosen to use a charger other than the one supplied by the manufacturer. How far does the manufacturer need to go in order to provide protection against the hazards from a faulty charger, not supplied by them? Bear in mind the hazardous scenarios may include a patient contact device being used while being charged. I await opinions with interest! NIck. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
Re: [PSES] BS EN 62493:2015 Assessment of lighting equipment related to human exposure to electromagnetic fields
At www.evs.ee you can get this preview for free https://www.evs.ee/preview/evs-en-62493-2015-en.pdf and buy the full standard for 19 euros. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Pete Perkins" <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> To: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 1:19:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] BS EN 62493:2015 Assessment of lighting equipment related to human exposure to electromagnetic fields Andy, I have not used 62493 so I’m not familiar with the details; I looked it up on the IEC website to get an idea as to what it covered and reported their summary. In reading thru this I see several points here. 1) The broad band radiation up to 300MHz must be for radiated emissions; 2) light itself is very limited in frequency and bandwidth so this must apply to the SMPS which are driving the lamps. Interestingly enough I have seen quite robust Touch Current measurements from LED lighting SMPS; which will eventually be tamed by proper Touch Current measurements which include the up to 1Mhz HF portion allowed by the human body response to HF current. But note that these HF components exist and can give rise to both conducted and radiated emissions; 3) SAR measurements indicate radiated emissions which would apply to LED systems (including their SMPS) which are worn on or close to the human body in their application. Perhaps someone else on this thread has more definite insight into the application and the need for these requirements; it would be good to hear from them. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 IEEE Life Fellow p.perk...@ieee.org From: McCallum, Andy <andy.mccal...@mottmac.com> Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 7:52 AM To: Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com> Subject: RE: [PSES] BS EN 62493:2015 Assessment of lighting equipment related to human exposure to electromagnetic fields Pete Thanks yes it is LED so not an issue. Out of interest what type of lighting does it cover? The exemption list is quite comprehensive. Andy From: Pete Perkins [ mailto:peperkin...@cs.com ] Sent: 29 March 2018 19:11 To: McCallum, Andy < andy.mccal...@mottmac.com >; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] BS EN 62493:2015 Assessment of lighting equipment related to human exposure to electromagnetic fields Andy, Just to clarify: Abstract; IEC 62493:2015 applies to the assessment of lighting equipment related to human exposure to electromagnetic fields. The assessment consists of the induced internal electric field for frequencies from 20 kHz to 10 MHz and the specific absorption rate (SAR) for frequencies from 100 kHz to 300 MHz around lighting equipment. This second edition cancels and replaces the first edition published in 2009. This edition constitutes a technical revision. This edition includes the following significant technical changes with respect to the previous edition: a) identification of lighting product types deemed to comply with the standard without the need for test; b) deletion of the need for CISPR-15-compliance as a prerequisite for IEC 62493 compliance; c) inclusion of the consequences of the ICNIPR 2010 guidelines for (up to 100 kHz); d) adding some guidance to the Van der Hoofden test head method to improve reproducibility of results; e) inclusion of compliance demonstration method for products having intentional radiators. Does your lighting product fall under the exemption? :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 IEEE Life Fellow p.perk...@ieee.org From: McCallum, Andy < andy.mccal...@mottmac.com > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 7:28 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] BS EN 62493:2015 Assessment of lighting equipment related to human exposure to electromagnetic fields Anyone have any experience of this standard? Do any lighting systems get close to the ICNIRP limits? Any thoughts welcome Andy - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < emc-p...@ieee.org > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/lis
Re: [PSES] New Guide to the EMC Directive
Cable box?Mike Sherman Graco Inc. Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: Matthew WilsonTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSent: April 4, 2018 at 12:33 PMSubject: Re: [PSES] New Guide to the EMC Directive Thanks for the link. I’m puzzled by this on page 61 of the guide, which is talking about what type of product is covered by which directive, EMCD or RED. “Consequently broadcast receivers that do not intentionally receive and/or transmit radio waves stay under the scope of the EMC-D and do not move under the scope of the RED.” A broadcast receiver that doesn’t intentionally receive?! Huh? What am I missing? Maybe they mean a set-top box without any radio functions exclusively connected by a network cable (e.g. Ethernet)? Matthew Wilson, Technical Director, GB Electronics (UK) Ltd. From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] Sent: 02 April 2018 19:11 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] New Guide to the EMC Directive Colleagues, In case you missed it, the EU has finally issued a new Guide to the EMC Directive. Get yours for free: https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/28323 Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> Matthew Wilson Technical Director https://gbelectronics.uk T: +44 (0)1903 244500 F: +44 (0)1903 700715 Ascot House // Mulberry Close // Woods Way Goring-by-Sea // West Sussex // BN12 4QY // UK Electronics Design // Manufacturing // Component Distribution Want to send us a file? https://www.mailbigfile.com/gbelectronics GB Electronics (UK) Limited is a company registered in England and Wales Company Registration No: 06210991 VAT Registration No: GB 925 1744 25 Registered Office: Ascot House, Mulberry Close, Woods Way Goring by Sea, West Sussex, BN12 4QY Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way and notify the sender immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the company, unless specifically stated. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] IEC60950-1 Limited Power Source via IC current limiter
I regard North American household GFCIs and industrial shunt trip GFCIs to not be fail safe because they can fail silently and therefore require period testing to verify continued functionality. I believe that the UL standard for GFCIs has recently been updated to require some periodic self testing to address this issue. Mike ShermanGraco Inc. Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: John WoodgateTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSent: March 8, 2018 at 3:57 PMSubject: Re: [PSES] IEC60950-1 Limited Power Source via IC current limiter Probably some fail-safe, some reliable. I think that this is why 'safety' involves risk-assessment, not just meeting standards. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-03-08 21:41, Richard Nute wrote: In my early days in product safety, safety was prohibited from relying on conduction in a vacuum, gas, or semiconductor. Today… we rely on semiconductor current limiters and similar devices, e.g., GFCI control circuits. Are such limiters and control circuits fail-safe devices? Or, are they “reliable” devices and circuits where their lifetime is expected (proven) to be greater than the host equipment? Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Fwd: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
aps your favorite NRTL could help. Your favorite NRTL might even have someone on the committee who could help with a question. Mike From: "Brian Kunde" < brian_ku...@lecotc.com > To: msherma...@comcast.net Cc: "EMC-PSTC" < EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:58:25 AM Subject: RE: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Mike, Thanks for your offer. I assume the requirement for RCD is limited to hand-held or portable power tools that uses water. This is interesting because I didn’t know this was a requirement. In our case, the cut-off saw we are looking at weighs over 300 lbs. Defiantly not hand-held any probably not considered portable (depending on your definition). Do you know if there are similar requirements for non-hand-held electric saws/tools? Thanks, The Other Brian From: msherma...@comcast.net [ mailto:msherma...@comcast.net ] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:29 PM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Brian -- I think I've seen a Part 2 standard for 60745-1, as I recall, that required a RCD if the tool used water and the water ended up in the wrong place electrically. If you'd like a screen shot of the section, I can probably find it for you. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. From: "Brian Kunde" < brian_ku...@lecotc.com > To: "EMC-PSTC" < EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:06:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Where Pete stated, “ The Euro systems use of RCDs require this protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the installation code details)”. This “Code” is probably what I am seeking. Has anyone run across a Code rule that requires the Product to employ a RCCB within the product? If the local electrical code requires a RCCB, cannot this protection be provided as part of the site protection? Why burden the cost of a product where such a requirement may only be necessary in a small percentage of installations? The main purpose of my question on this topic is cost. Here in the USA, a GFCI receptacle is very inexpensive; costing around $10 at most home stores. But a 3-phase RCD Circuit Breaker can cost $300-$400. On some products, such as a tile saw that uses water, this can more than double the cost of the entire product. So knowing when and where they are required is very important. Thanks again to everyone for your consideration. From what I have read so far on this topic, it is a moving target as electric codes from different states and countries are always evolving and the code governing the requirements of RCDs and GFCIs are common to change. Thanks, Brian From: John Woodgate [ mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk ] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:13 AM To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE You can rely on the recent post in this thread by Pete Perkins. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-01-31 15:52, Kunde, Brian wrote: Thanks for the input everyone. I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip between 4-6mA. Do other countries, such as Europe, have the same requirements? Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe use 30mA ground fault protectors because of nuisance tripping even though the studies have shown that 30mA can be fatal? These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with a power cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a plug could be added and plugged it into a receptacle. The choice is left up to the customer. The saw uses water but the work environment would not normally be considered a “wet location”. It would not be used in a construction location. So again, I’m trying to figure out why the saw manufacturer used the expensive 30mA ground fault breakers in their product. Thanks, The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail
Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE discussion
Ralph --
Pete Perkins is the expert.
0.5 mA is the "reaction/startle" threshold.
6 mA gets you into where some of the population experiences muscle contraction
("letgo-immobilization").
I don't know the risk trade-offs various committees made to get from 5 mA to
15, 25, or 30.
Mike
- Original Message -
From: "Ralph McDiarmid" <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
To: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:02:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE discussion
“current limit of 30mA protects 95 % of the population”
They didn’t want to try for 100% ? I'm no expert and I don't know if we have
one on this forum for this complex topic, but ask how can one limit be 5X the
other and still afford the same level of protection? Perhaps not intended to,
as in shock versus electrocution protection.
Is 6mA enough for strong muscle reaction or a startle reaction sufficient to
cause someone to loose balance for instance?
Still, some protection better than none at all.
Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance Specialist
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 10:06 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE discussion
Brian, et al
Low current protection devices are intended to protect people.
The long term letgo-immobilization current of 5mA covers the full population
and opens any circuit which exceeds this level (ok, the UL limit for GFCIs is
4mA to 6 mA), But you get the idea.
The long term Ventricular Fibrillation current limit of 30mA protects 95 % of
the population on the face of the earth. The Euro systems use of RCDs require
this protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the
installation code details).
Here in the US we are developing protection devices that will work at 15 mA and
25 mA. These are intended for use with charging electric vehicles. The 15 mA
device will be used in residential installations and the 25 mA device will be
used in commercial installations (haven’t followed the code development but
believe that this is how it is going).
All of these devices have been designed for sinusoidal AC systems and they all
have false tripping issues when used with equipment with line switching. SMPS
and VSD units are a problem today in that they trip a small number of
protection devices; their use is spreading into many more types of products.
From my perspective the units each have a statistical range of protection or
operation and they seem to overlap a small percentage of the time; this gives
rise to ‘nuisance tripping’ (meaning undiagnosed tripping). This is an issue
both in North America (GFCI & AFCI country) as well as the EuroZone (RCD
devices).
I worked with a student project last year which published a paper for the 2017
IEEE PSES ISPCE Symposium; Yuen et al, ‘Why do GFCIs keep tripping’. This paper
show that some GFCIs can be tricked into operating when they shouldn’t.
The non-sinusoidal nature of the earth/ground current as well as the CM/DM
signals have not been fully understood nor taken care of in a harmonized way
between the protection device and the load.
Lot’s of opportunity here for investigation and recommendation of mitigation
techniques.
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
IEEE Life Fellow
mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:04 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
I’ve recently come to understand that the 30mA Ground-Fault protectors, often
built into a circuit breaker, is intended to protect the Protective Earth
(Safety Ground) circuit in the case of a short circuit (opening the circuit
before the safety ground could be damaged. It this correct?
Here is my question. I’m evaluating a cut-off saw (5hp) which uses water to
keep the blade and material cool. The manufacturer uses a 3-phase supplementary
circuit breaker which includes the 30mA GFPE option. This is a very expensive
part. When I asked them why they use the GFPE part, they couldn’t give me a
good answer.
Would such a part be required on a 3-phase motor driven cutoff saw in either
North America or Europe? What standard would dictate this?
If the only purpose of a GFPE is to protect the Ground Circuit, on products
that can handle shorts without damaging the ground circuit, would a GFPE still
be necessary?
Where are GFPE typically used? What industry?
Please educate me. This is a new one on me.
Thanks,
Brian
From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 2:48 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] JOB POSTING - ONTARIO, CANA
Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
IEC TC 116 in in the process of folding the 60745-1 (hand held motor operated tool) standards into the 62841 series ( Electric motor-operated hand-held tools, transportable tools and lawn and garden machinery ). See their dashboard at: http://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:30:13397277133783FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_LANG_ID:4112,25 My reference was not from a part 2, but actually from section 21.16 of 60745-1: " Tools employing liquid systems shall protect the user against the increased risk of shock due to the presence of liquid under conditions of normal use and the faults of the liquid system. Tools employing liquid systems shall be either: • of class III construction; • of class I or class II construction and be provided with a residual current device and comply with 14.4, 14.5 and 14.6; or • of class I or class II construction and be designed for use in combination with an isolating transformer and comply with 14.4 and 14.5. " Section 14.4 describes using a salt water mix to simulate overfilling or misassembling and then testing for leakage. I do not know whether your product falls within scope of 62841; perhaps your favorite NRTL could help. Your favorite NRTL might even have someone on the committee who could help with a question. Mike - Original Message - From: "Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> To: msherma...@comcast.net Cc: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:58:25 AM Subject: RE: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Mike, Thanks for your offer. I assume the requirement for RCD is limited to hand-held or portable power tools that uses water. This is interesting because I didn’t know this was a requirement. In our case, the cut-off saw we are looking at weighs over 300 lbs. Defiantly not hand-held any probably not considered portable (depending on your definition). Do you know if there are similar requirements for non-hand-held electric saws/tools? Thanks, The Other Brian From: msherma...@comcast.net [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:29 PM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Brian -- I think I've seen a Part 2 standard for 60745-1, as I recall, that required a RCD if the tool used water and the water ended up in the wrong place electrically. If you'd like a screen shot of the section, I can probably find it for you. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Brian Kunde" < brian_ku...@lecotc.com > To: "EMC-PSTC" < EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:06:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Where Pete stated, “ The Euro systems use of RCDs require this protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the installation code details)”. This “Code” is probably what I am seeking. Has anyone run across a Code rule that requires the Product to employ a RCCB within the product? If the local electrical code requires a RCCB, cannot this protection be provided as part of the site protection? Why burden the cost of a product where such a requirement may only be necessary in a small percentage of installations? The main purpose of my question on this topic is cost. Here in the USA, a GFCI receptacle is very inexpensive; costing around $10 at most home stores. But a 3-phase RCD Circuit Breaker can cost $300-$400. On some products, such as a tile saw that uses water, this can more than double the cost of the entire product. So knowing when and where they are required is very important. Thanks again to everyone for your consideration. From what I have read so far on this topic, it is a moving target as electric codes from different states and countries are always evolving and the code governing the requirements of RCDs and GFCIs are common to change. Thanks, Brian From: John Woodgate [ mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk ] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:13 AM To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE You can rely on the recent post in this thread by Pete Perkins. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-01-31 15:52, Kunde, Brian wrote: Thanks for the input everyone. I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip between 4-6mA. Do other countries, such as Europe, have the same requirements? Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe use 30mA ground fault protectors because of nuisance tripping even though the studies have shown that 30mA can be fatal? These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with a power cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a plug could be added and plugged it into a receptacle. The choice is left up to the customer. The saw uses water but the work environmen
Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
Brian -- I think I've seen a Part 2 standard for 60745-1, as I recall, that required a RCD if the tool used water and the water ended up in the wrong place electrically. If you'd like a screen shot of the section, I can probably find it for you. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: "Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> To: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:06:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE Where Pete stated, “ The Euro systems use of RCDs require this protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the installation code details)”. This “Code” is probably what I am seeking. Has anyone run across a Code rule that requires the Product to employ a RCCB within the product? If the local electrical code requires a RCCB, cannot this protection be provided as part of the site protection? Why burden the cost of a product where such a requirement may only be necessary in a small percentage of installations? The main purpose of my question on this topic is cost. Here in the USA, a GFCI receptacle is very inexpensive; costing around $10 at most home stores. But a 3-phase RCD Circuit Breaker can cost $300-$400. On some products, such as a tile saw that uses water, this can more than double the cost of the entire product. So knowing when and where they are required is very important. Thanks again to everyone for your consideration. From what I have read so far on this topic, it is a moving target as electric codes from different states and countries are always evolving and the code governing the requirements of RCDs and GFCIs are common to change. Thanks, Brian From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:13 AM To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE You can rely on the recent post in this thread by Pete Perkins. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-01-31 15:52, Kunde, Brian wrote: Thanks for the input everyone. I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip between 4-6mA. Do other countries, such as Europe, have the same requirements? Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe use 30mA ground fault protectors because of nuisance tripping even though the studies have shown that 30mA can be fatal? These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with a power cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a plug could be added and plugged it into a receptacle. The choice is left up to the customer. The saw uses water but the work environment would not normally be considered a “wet location”. It would not be used in a construction location. So again, I’m trying to figure out why the saw manufacturer used the expensive 30mA ground fault breakers in their product. Thanks, The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For p
[PSES] FCC Language in Manuals, Intentional Transmitter
Esteemed Colleagues --
We are incorporating a modularly approved intentional transmitter into some
industrial products. We understand the requirement to include on the product
(or in our manuals, if the product is too small) the Part 15.19 compliance
statement (" This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is
subject to the following two conditions: (1) This ... ").
However, we are also aware of two other FCC statements that appear to be
required, but which we do not often see in other product manuals, including my
new iPhone.
Warning (Part 15.21)
"Changes or modifications not expressly approved by the party responsible for
compliance could void the user’s authority to operate the equipment. "
Information to the User (Part 15.105 a)
" NOTE: This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for
a Class A digital device, pursuant to part 15 of the FCC Rules. These limits
are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful interference when
the equipment is operated in a commercial environment. This equipment
generates, uses, and can radiate radio frequency energy and, if not installed
and used in accordance with the instruction manual, may cause harmful
interference to radio communications. Operation of this equipment in a
residential area is likely to cause harmful interference in which case the user
will be required to correct the interference at his own expense. "
What are we missing? Are these last two warnings only required in some cases,
but not in others?
thanks,
Mike Sherman
Product Safety and Compliance Engineer
Graco Inc.
-
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