Re: [Emc-users] Relay driver not working - solved

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/4/21 Kirk Wallace :
>
> I'm just getting into the middle of this thread, but if I recall, the
> last time we visited this circuit we found two sets of datasheets for
> the same device with different pin outs. Maybe a multimeter could sort
> out the pins.

Kirk, You have good memory!

I just resoldered the same transistor for the base-collector-emitter
pinout (collector in the middle, not base as I tried previously) and
tested and it works.

I feel little embarrased as I posted a link, which had correct pinout,
but I did not follow that... Thank You guys for Your help and
patience!

Viesturs

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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Bernhard Kubicek]

On 4/20/2012 6:29 PM, Scott Hasse wrote:
> Unfortunately, this approach doesn't work well for things like plastic 
> extrusion where it can be difficult to control the extrusion rate precisely.  
> Repraps, etc are able to succeed in part because they take a very naive 
> approach to trajectory planning and can get away with it because of the low 
> moving mass.  They basically try to fly around at a consistent speed 
> regardless, and extrude at a constant rate.
Yes they have to maintain speed, because any speed change would create 
over/underdeposition because of the nozzle time constant/overpressure.
But also it should be remarked, that Marlin uses up to 32 lines 
lookahead for which it processes acceleration curves in advance. There 
is a velocity magnitude, any change of the speed vector less than this 
velocity will be done without acceleration. Any breaking and 
accelerating is done so that one reaches this "jerk" velocity change is 
reached at corners. From what I understand, EMC would be much slower 
following a typical 3d-printing gcode than marlin, due to the 1-line 
lookahead.
What however would be nice is blending, and arc step generation, to run 
through with even more constant velocity.

greetings,
  Bernhard Kubicek

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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[charles green]

maybe the constraint should be (neglecting e stop) that the control stops at 
the next block that could contain a zero velocity, given the machinetool's 
maximum acceleration.  single stepping would then be slower than max possible 
speed, and pausing continuous block execution would occur at an indeterminate 
number of blocks after a feedhold signal.  the lookahead would still have to be 
an arbitrary amount of blocks.  if the physical path length of each block is 
calculated, then the lookahead could stop searching through blocks when it 
found a sequence long enough to ensure keeping within machinetool's 
acceleration limits.


--- On Fri, 4/20/12, Jon Elson  wrote:

> From: Jon Elson 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a 
> EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 20, 2012, 8:55 PM
> Thomas Powderly wrote:
> >
> > here's how one group worked with the fast turn around
> at edge of work
> > the machine tool was like the emc2-bipod and the
> software built
> > huge arcs into the endmotions to keep velocity up and
> dampen the bipod swing
> >   
> Certainly fixing this in the CAM is the best approach, then
> the machine 
> never needs to slow down
> at all, keeping good speeds right to the end of contact with
> the work.
> 
> The problem, of course, is LinuxCNC won't give you the
> fastest speed 
> possible because it
> still demands being able to stop at the end of the next
> block.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Steve Blackmore]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 09:47:44 +0100, you wrote:

>On 20 April 2012 06:42, Scott Hasse  wrote:
>> Rather than trying to solve this problem in a million places not under our
>> control, doesn't it make sense to try and solve it properly in one place
>> and look more closely at using more than one line for look ahead?
>
>As I said earlier, I don't think this is a "Lookahead" problem, it is
>a "must be able to stop inside the next code block" problem.
>And I am not convinced that being able to stop the machine within the
>next code block is necessarily a sensible requirement.

One line look ahead seems to cause a problem in LinuxCNC,  the
trajectory planner is not optimal. 

Mach seems to be able to feed hold without having to run out the whole
look ahead buffer. The look ahead is user selectable, but I've never ran
any code that in practice needed more than 10 lines. Some code is crap,
no getting away from that but for the same code, same velocity and
acceleration settings etc LinuxCNC is much more jerky, and slower than
Mach on the same job using steppers via parallel port. 

It's particularly worse on arc to arc or arc to line transitions. Short
straight line type 3D code is also poor. To get it to behave similar to
Mach the following tolerance needs to be 10 times worse!

This is how it's done with Mach. (Quote from Art Fenerty)

Mach3 is a bang-bang accelerative trapezoidal velocity planner, and a
very good one for almost all code types. Its CV is created by the simple
rule of beginning the acceleration of the next motion when the
acceleration of the current move goes negative. ( deceleration phase).
This means you are literally adding one move to the next , allowing for
the speed to increase. I'm sure many have read this before and can
picture it in the context of two motions where the second is added to
the first , thus making the deceleration phase virtually invisible (
thus constant velocity ), but what I , or Brian, rarely mention is that
it operates in full look ahead, this means that in tiny segment code,
the code of a line may be passed over by the time sequence 
of the planner as it progresses, but that motions speed must still be
added in to the total of the motions distance. This means its
an iterative process, where up to 100 lines or more may be actively
added together in terms of their deceleration phases being added to the
next motions acceleration phase. This can be hard to wrap the head
around. Each Gcode line has to be considered fully in the iterative
calculations involved. Imagine tiny segment code where the angle of the
next motion is constantly shifting ( typical 3d work ), and the
processor is trying to keep track of the real speed that's possible.
Since the consistency of the speed is a function of the additive
properties of each motions deceleration phase, it means the max speed an
individual motion can do is important in the functions total speed
accumulation. 

Steve Blackmore
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[Emc-users] Trajectory planning, Newbie pops in again...

[Roger Holmquist]

Noticed the lists persistent discussion of the LinucCNC trajectory planning 
functionality.
As a system designer I'm curious about the mentioned rule "ability to stop at 
end of next block" and wonder what the rationale for such a rule consist of.
As a programmer I would also find it convenient to create functionality who 
gives the user the possibility to "stop at an arbitrary number of future 
blocks", it may consist of 1,2 ,3 or more.

Some FANUC systems seem to have three blocks lookahead I was recently told. 
That gives the user problems if those blocks consists of comments with no moves 
I have also been taught...

/ Roger






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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[charles green]

total lookahead is a boundless problem, just as creating a 3d preview of the 
commanded toolpaths is a boundless problem (the backplot).  the controller on 
some level can handle the ngc file in its entirety, so why not deal with 
machine acceleration limits on the same level, or machine limits in general - 
feed, movement bounds, spindle speeds, tool numbers, etc.

so commanded feedrates in a file are upper bounds, and within those bounds, 
maximum feedrates are always possible.


--- On Fri, 4/20/12, Jon Elson  wrote:

> From: Jon Elson 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a 
> EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 20, 2012, 9:54 AM
> andy pugh wrote:
> > As I said earlier, I don't think this is a "Lookahead"
> problem, it is
> > a "must be able to stop inside the next code block"
> problem.
> > And I am not convinced that being able to stop the
> machine within the
> > next code block is necessarily a sensible requirement.
> >   
> Exactly!  It is a safe scheme, but becomes a
> limitation.  Total 
> lookahead is a boundless
> problem, so I can see that is not sensible.  What I can
> imagine is a 
> method of lookahead
> where each vector is examined for acceleration, and it keeps
> running 
> ahead until a large
> acceleration would be required.  Some kind of mark is
> made for that 
> vector so the
> traj planner knows a deceleration would be required coming
> up on that 
> point.  Perhaps
> this accel scanning could put the mark back the required
> number of 
> blocks so that when
> the traj planner hits that mark it begins the decel
> then.  This all is 
> complicated by the
> feedrate override that is implemented at the moment. 
> But, the scanning 
> could probably
> just assume 100% speed (or whatever the max override
> allows).
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.04.12 12:25, Jon Elson wrote:
> Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > Doesn't even G02/G03 result in a series of very small linear moves sent to
> > the servo motors? Wouldn't a NURB conversion do the same thing
>
> Yes, in a way.  But, the G02/G03 is known to be a single move, so
> there is no velocity change until the end of that move.  NURBS doesn't
> really solve this problem, it just condenses the description of the
> surface, and allows a program to fairly simply determine the
> accelerations that might be needed to traverse it.
> 
> The problem with general G-code is each block tells you nothing about
> any other block.  So, you have to read arbitrarily far ahead to know
> if there are any sudden changes in velocity coming up.

Sort of arbitrary, but fully determined by the gcode, I think, because
the look-ahead only needs to keep one stopping distance ahead of the
executed motion, by subtracting the length of the currently executing
motion, and adding enough look-ahead segment lengths to stay far enough
ahead for the current feedrate. If there are no sharp bends or a stop in
the headlights, keep truckin'.

I don't imagine that we sprinkle so many feedrate changes into the
segment list for a G1, that Mach's merging of the next feedrate would
make a damn's worth of difference to this case. Our problem is getting
LinuxCNC off its knees, to dare to obey the given feedrate on a long
chain of micro-segments. (I.e. fit headlights, rather than have a man
with a red flag walking in front.)

Erik

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Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described with pictures.


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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Mike Cinquino]

>The cuttoff slide was air over hydrolic to make it move smoother, just?get
rid of it
>and use a cut off for a lathe that way you can put a little chamfer on the
>OD before you part off.

I will do that.

>Collet closer is air.Hope you have the solenoids for it because they keep
>the collet closed after the air is released.There is alot of o-rings
inside the
>closer so if the machine has been sitting for a while start putting a few
drops
>of air tool oil down the tubes on the closer every day till you are done
with
>the rest of the machine.

Also good advice. I have not tested the closer yet so I will start getting
oil in it today.

>My spindle motor is 5 hp but 3 would be ok if your diameters dont get too
big
>and feedrates stay conservative.

I don't have a motor yet so I will go with a 5HP... definitely rules out my
servo.

Mike
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

17 квітня 2012 р. 19:23 Peter C. Wallace  написав:

> Did you verify the bit file md5 checksum?
>

Yes, it's ok.

There's some progress at last! Here's the simplified hal I try to check 7i39

loadrt trivkins
loadrt motmod servo_period_nsec=100 num_joints=3
loadrt probe_parport
loadrt hostmot2
loadrt hm2_7i43 config="firmware=hm2/7i43-4/SVST4_4_7i39.BIT num_encoders=1
num_pwmgens=0 num_3pwmgens=1 num_stepgens=0"
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.frequency 15000
setp hm2_7i43.0.watchdog.timeout_ns 1000

addf hm2_7i43.0.read servo-thread
addf motion-command-handler servo-thread
addf motion-controller servo-thread
addf hm2_7i43.0.write servo-thread
addf hm2_7i43.0.pet_watchdog   servo-thread

setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.enable 1
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.fault-invert 1
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.A-value 1
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.B-value 0
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.C-value 0

When I start it, the motor is powered. Thus 7i39 is OK, good news!
Now I'm fighting one axis config with pid and bldc...

Is the following connection correct?

net x-output   <= pid.x.output
net x-output   => bldc.0.value

I guess pid controls bldc, but it was backwards before. Though, still
nothing works.

Andrew
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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Terry Christophersen]

If you need any help I can try.I have 3 Hardinges with one that I am 
retrofitting
Hardinge website has most of the old prints 
Good Luck

Terry

 
- Original Message -
From: Mike Cinquino 
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

>The cuttoff slide was air over hydrolic to make it move smoother, just?get
rid of it
>and use a cut off for a lathe that way you can put a little chamfer on the
>OD before you part off.

I will do that.

>Collet closer is air.Hope you have the solenoids for it because they keep
>the collet closed after the air is released.There is alot of o-rings
inside the
>closer so if the machine has been sitting for a while start putting a few
drops
>of air tool oil down the tubes on the closer every day till you are done
with
>the rest of the machine.

Also good advice. I have not tested the closer yet so I will start getting
oil in it today.

>My spindle motor is 5 hp but 3 would be ok if your diameters dont get too
big
>and feedrates stay conservative.

I don't have a motor yet so I will go with a 5HP... definitely rules out my
servo.

Mike
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Re: [Emc-users] Relay driver not working - solved

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 10:02:54 AM Viesturs Lācis did opine:

> 2012/4/21 Kirk Wallace :
> > I'm just getting into the middle of this thread, but if I recall, the
> > last time we visited this circuit we found two sets of datasheets for
> > the same device with different pin outs. Maybe a multimeter could sort
> > out the pins.
> 
> Kirk, You have good memory!
> 
> I just resoldered the same transistor for the base-collector-emitter
> pinout (collector in the middle, not base as I tried previously) and
> tested and it works.

:-)  Great.
 
> I feel little embarrased as I posted a link, which had correct pinout,
> but I did not follow that... Thank You guys for Your help and
> patience!

Yup, I followed that link, and didn't grok that there were bogus bits of 
info about until the basing led to an argument that culminated in the list 
rejecting my message with the correct pdf, the one from your original 
posted URL, attached.

IMO that rejection should not have happened, not when it was germane to the 
thread.

I know the list manager is trying to save the users bandwidth, and some of 
you are likely still paying by the minute for connect time and connecting 
at 57kb or less, but a 90k limit is unreal with todays technology.  If it 
was raised to 900k, then based on a pix being worth 1000 words, we could be 
considerably more informative in our replies by posting a pix of that motor 
mount or whatever.

A decently hi-res pix, not one of those detail emasculated M$ pix my nieces 
machine sends me.  It may have been a good pix when it came out of her 10MP 
camera, but by the time her email agent (probably OE) has smunched it down 
to 17 kilobytes, its worthless, absolutely not worth wasting the paper and 
ink to print it for the missus who is computer illiterate.

Thank you for telling us its working Viesturs, we appreciate it.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Matthew Ireland]

Terry, you sound very knowledgeable on the workings of the turret. I have
an HNC that I successfully retrofitted. All works fabulously, except for a
running fight with the turret. It will work perfectly one day, and fail to
latch repeatedly the next. If it were reliable, this could be a production
machine. Any advice?

If I were a bit more clever, I could rewrite the ladder to fail more
gracefully and mitigate this problem. Perhaps I should be asking for ladder
configs to study. Currently I am using one that Radek was kind enough to
copy for me, but in all my fooling with it I may have made changes. Any
thoughts?
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/4/21 Andrew :
>
> setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.A-value 1
> setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.B-value 0
> setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.C-value 0

IMHO these will tell to apply current to a certain winding of the
motor, so it will not move anywhere.

You might try to setp bldc.0.value to a certain value so that it tells
to move at certain velocity...

Viesturs

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:11:51 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

17  2012 ??. 19:23 Peter C. Wallace  
??:



Did you verify the bit file md5 checksum?




Is the following connection correct?

net x-output   <= pid.x.output
net x-output   => bldc.0.value


Yes that is correct but of course the three phase outputs of the bldc comp 
must connect to the 3 phase inputs of the 3ppwmgen and the proper init 
sequence must be triggered in the bldc comp (man bldc)


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

21 квітня 2012 р. 17:56 Viesturs Lācis  написав:

> 2012/4/21 Andrew :
> >
> > setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.A-value 1
> > setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.B-value 0
> > setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.C-value 0
>
> IMHO these will tell to apply current to a certain winding of the
> motor, so it will not move anywhere.
>
> Viesturs, you're right! But the goal was to test 7i39, if it can power the
motor at all. And it can.

You might try to setp bldc.0.value to a certain value so that it tells
> to move at certain velocity...
>
> Bldc already works some way, but obviously wrong. Now I'm trying to figure
out the motor parameters. That's fun already, instead of dead motor.
BTW I figured out that the previous problem was 3pwmgen scale set too high.

Andrew
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[Emc-users] Motor controller in a 7x1* lathe, need schematic.

[gene heskett]

Hi all;

I was able to find a schematic for one of the earlier controllers used in 
these machines, for one that had the external interfacing stuff on a 
daughterboard and I suspect it might be usable as a trouble shooting guide 
if it was printable.  But that link isn't printable, for some reason pages 
2 and up are blank in the print preview.

The controller in my lathe is probably the next generation, no 
daughterboard because the mini-dip chips that were on the daughterboard 
were shrunk down to tsop stuff, allowing the whole thing to be fitted to 
only 1 pcb assembly.  Also, no power transformer, instead a bunch of 5 watt 
metal film R's occupy that location on my board.

I have also found a hookup schematic that incorporates an extra cnc/manual 
switch and reversing relay that my current interface board should work 
with, so what I need now is a working schematic.  Does any one have such a 
beast?


Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Terry Christophersen]

With dependable tool changes on a HNC. the stop latch (under the cover on the 
operator side of the carrage)
is usually the thing to get right.Adjustments are made by removing the long 
black cover on the right
side of the carrage.Under here there is a round plug with a hex socket,BUT 
remember to loosen the 
lock set screw that comes down from the top.
If the turret works once or twice correctly then your problem is more than 
likely mechanical rather than
computer related.
A combination of the magnetic sensor and the stop cushion is more than likely 
the issue.
What I do if I had to remove the sensor for some reason is try to get the 
turret to work as 
best as you can without the stop cushion(just to make sure the sensor is very 
close to working)
then fine tune with the stop cushion.
It takes a little while but once you get the stop working correctly the turret 
will be 100 percent reliable
 
Terry



From: Matthew Ireland 
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) ; Terry 
Christophersen  
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild


Terry, you sound very knowledgeable on the workings of the turret. I have an 
HNC that I successfully retrofitted. All works fabulously, except for a running 
fight with the turret. It will work perfectly one day, and fail to latch 
repeatedly the next. If it were reliable, this could be a production machine. 
Any advice?
If I were a bit more clever, I could rewrite the ladder to fail more gracefully 
and mitigate this problem. Perhaps I should be asking for ladder configs to 
study. Currently I am using one that Radek was kind enough to copy for me, but 
in all my fooling with it I may have made changes. Any thoughts?
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

21 квітня 2012 р. 18:06 Peter C. Wallace  написав:

> Yes that is correct but of course the three phase outputs of the bldc comp
> must connect to the 3 phase inputs of the 3ppwmgen and the proper init
> sequence must be triggered in the bldc comp (man bldc)
>

The motor is moving already, but not exactly correct. I try to find bldc
parameters
As bldc.pattern only needed with Halls, then only bldc.0.scale
and bldc.0.poles remain?
The motor pole pair pitch is 72 mm, and encoder is 200 pulses per mm.
I set bldc.0.scale  to 14400 and  bldc.0.poles is 2
But still something's wrong.

Also, there's a question about bldc init. I came up with init on Estop:

net estop-out  iocontrol.0.user-enable-out => bldc.0.init =>
hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.enable
net x-is-init  bldc.0.init-done => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in => pid.x.enable

It works, but after init is complete, motors power off, and power on when
the machine is ON. Which is bad as they can loose the init position. How do
I make it right?

Andrew
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Re: [Emc-users] Motor controller in a 7x1* lathe, need schematic.

[Kent A. Reed]

On 4/21/2012 11:42 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> Hi all;
>
> I was able to find a schematic for one of the earlier controllers used in
> these machines, for one that had the external interfacing stuff on a
> daughterboard and I suspect it might be usable as a trouble shooting guide
> if it was printable.  But that link isn't printable, for some reason pages
> 2 and up are blank in the print preview.

Gene:

I surmise you might be looking at the dcmotorcontroller.net site, which 
I just found via Google. When I choose schematic and try to print the 
page I get only the first bit. However, the schematics consist of a 
bunch of gif files which you can select and print individually by the 
simple expediency of right-clicking each image, opening it in a new tab, 
and printing.

> The controller in my lathe is probably the next generation, no
> daughterboard because the mini-dip chips that were on the daughterboard
> were shrunk down to tsop stuff, allowing the whole thing to be fitted to
> only 1 pcb assembly.  Also, no power transformer, instead a bunch of 5 watt
> metal film R's occupy that location on my board.
>
> I have also found a hookup schematic that incorporates an extra cnc/manual
> switch and reversing relay that my current interface board should work
> with, so what I need now is a working schematic.  Does any one have such a
> beast?

The hookup schematics on the littlemachineshop.com site?
>
> Cheers, Gene

So far, I haven't had the need to open the controller case of my 
(manual) late-model Micro-Mark lathe. I'll be happy to hear what you learn.


Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] the state of the Wiki

[Kent A. Reed]

On 4/17/2012 11:33 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Kent A. Reed  
> wrote:
>> Speaking of the Wiki, it could use a lot more
>> editorial work. Looking at the Recent Changes listing, I see the usual
>> few suspects making progress but there is a lot of work left.
>>
>> <...>
>> I wish I were in a position to do more of what needs to be done, but
>> recent challenges at home make a concerted effort impossible. I'm lucky
> You're very persuasive--this sounds like a useful project that I'd
> like to help. Can you make a list of pages that require most urgent
> update, in your opinion?
>
>
Well, if I had time to do that, maybe I'd have time to do the actual work:-)

Still, you've made your point and I'll see what I can come up with.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 09:17 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote:
> With dependable tool changes on a HNC. the stop latch (under the cover on the 
> operator side of the carrage)
> is usually the thing to get right.Adjustments are made by removing the long 
> black cover on the right
> side of the carrage.Under here there is a round plug with a hex socket,BUT 
> remember to loosen the 
> lock set screw that comes down from the top.
> If the turret works once or twice correctly then your problem is more than 
> likely mechanical rather than
> computer related.
> A combination of the magnetic sensor and the stop cushion is more than likely 
> the issue.
> What I do if I had to remove the sensor for some reason is try to get the 
> turret to work as 
> best as you can without the stop cushion(just to make sure the sensor is very 
> close to working)
> then fine tune with the stop cushion.
> It takes a little while but once you get the stop working correctly the 
> turret will be 100 percent reliable
>  
> Terry

On mine, I loosen the screw for the magnet then note the actual tool
position. I rotate the magnet forward (I forget which way) until the
tool number matches the actual position and continue until the number
changes to 0 or the next tool number. I back off a little to get the
proper tool number back again. This way the logic can make a match early
enough to activate the stop pawl in time. If the match isn't done in
time, the table continues to rotate.

See here for the lock screw location:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/maint_man/ 

In case you haven't heard me say it before, if your seals are over three
years old they should be replaced (or at least checked that they are
still soft and without cracks). It made a big difference on my lathe.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Ian McMahon]

I have somewhat unreliable tool changes as well.  Sometimes it'll miss the 
change entirely and spin two or three revolutions before the ladder times out.  
Sometimes it seems like it pops the stop too early, and catches the turret in 
the wrong position.  Often I'll hear what sounds like the stop popping early 
and it'll make the correct change, but I'll hear it whack past the previous 
station.


I'm going to try adjusting the magnet and see if that helps.


On Apr 21, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 09:17 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote:
>> With dependable tool changes on a HNC. the stop latch (under the cover on 
>> the operator side of the carrage)
>> is usually the thing to get right.Adjustments are made by removing the long 
>> black cover on the right
>> side of the carrage.Under here there is a round plug with a hex socket,BUT 
>> remember to loosen the 
>> lock set screw that comes down from the top.
>> If the turret works once or twice correctly then your problem is more than 
>> likely mechanical rather than
>> computer related.
>> A combination of the magnetic sensor and the stop cushion is more than 
>> likely the issue.
>> What I do if I had to remove the sensor for some reason is try to get the 
>> turret to work as 
>> best as you can without the stop cushion(just to make sure the sensor is 
>> very close to working)
>> then fine tune with the stop cushion.
>> It takes a little while but once you get the stop working correctly the 
>> turret will be 100 percent reliable
>> 
>> Terry
> 
> On mine, I loosen the screw for the magnet then note the actual tool
> position. I rotate the magnet forward (I forget which way) until the
> tool number matches the actual position and continue until the number
> changes to 0 or the next tool number. I back off a little to get the
> proper tool number back again. This way the logic can make a match early
> enough to activate the stop pawl in time. If the match isn't done in
> time, the table continues to rotate.
> 
> See here for the lock screw location:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/maint_man/ 
> 
> In case you haven't heard me say it before, if your seals are over three
> years old they should be replaced (or at least checked that they are
> still soft and without cracks). It made a big difference on my lathe.
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
> 
> 
> --
> For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
> Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You.
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:38:15 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

21  2012 ??. 18:06 Peter C. Wallace  
??:



Yes that is correct but of course the three phase outputs of the bldc comp
must connect to the 3 phase inputs of the 3ppwmgen and the proper init
sequence must be triggered in the bldc comp (man bldc)




The motor is moving already, but not exactly correct. I try to find bldc
parameters
As bldc.pattern only needed with Halls, then only bldc.0.scale
and bldc.0.poles remain?
The motor pole pair pitch is 72 mm, and encoder is 200 pulses per mm.
I set bldc.0.scale  to 14400 and  bldc.0.poles is 2
But still something's wrong.

Also, there's a question about bldc init. I came up with init on Estop:

net estop-out  iocontrol.0.user-enable-out => bldc.0.init =>
hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.enable
net x-is-init  bldc.0.init-done => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in => pid.x.enable

It works, but after init is complete, motors power off, and power on when
the machine is ON. Which is bad as they can loose the init position. How do
I make it right?



Andrew



A couple of things:

if you have the parameters right, you may still have the phase rotatiom 
backwards, this can be fixed by swapping 2 motor leads.


The init position is not lost (the raw encoder offset is measured when the 
init current is applied)


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

21 квітня 2012 р. 20:30 Peter C. Wallace  написав:

> if you have the parameters right, you may still have the phase rotatiom
> backwards, this can be fixed by swapping 2 motor leads.
>
> Thanks Peter, that is possible. Can I change something in hal to avoid
swapping wires?


>  The init position is not lost (the raw encoder offset is measured when
> the init current is applied)
>

Well, that's not convenient anyways. I'd like motors to keep position after
init.
 BTW, can the machine be also homed when init on index pulse?

Andrew
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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Terry Christophersen]

Kirk is 100% correct, the o-rings need to be replaced once and a while.I would 
guess 
most didnt until something wouldnt work.It is a pain but if you only have to do 
it
every 10 years or so it doesnt seem too bad.
Like Kirk said make sure the stop prawl is what is stopping the turret it 
should fire
before the motor stops trying to turn.
Watch the turret come down.It should be perfectly smooth without any movement of
rotation as it engages the locks at the seated position.This movement will be 
subtle and kind of
hard to watch but if the locks are moving the turret when it comes down then 
you are not lined up 
and are putting undue wear on them.
 
Terry

From: Kirk Wallace 
To: Terry Christophersen ; Enhanced Machine Controller 
(EMC)  
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 09:17 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote:
> With dependable tool changes on a HNC. the stop latch (under the cover on the 
> operator side of the carrage)
> is usually the thing to get right.Adjustments are made by removing the long 
> black cover on the right
> side of the carrage.Under here there is a round plug with a hex socket,BUT 
> remember to loosen the 
> lock set screw that comes down from the top.
> If the turret works once or twice correctly then your problem is more than 
> likely mechanical rather than
> computer related.
> A combination of the magnetic sensor and the stop cushion is more than likely 
> the issue.
> What I do if I had to remove the sensor for some reason is try to get the 
> turret to work as 
> best as you can without the stop cushion(just to make sure the sensor is very 
> close to working)
> then fine tune with the stop cushion.
> It takes a little while but once you get the stop working correctly the 
> turret will be 100 percent reliable
>  
> Terry

On mine, I loosen the screw for the magnet then note the actual tool
position. I rotate the magnet forward (I forget which way) until the
tool number matches the actual position and continue until the number
changes to 0 or the next tool number. I back off a little to get the
proper tool number back again. This way the logic can make a match early
enough to activate the stop pawl in time. If the match isn't done in
time, the table continues to rotate.

See here for the lock screw location:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/maint_man/

In case you haven't heard me say it before, if your seals are over three
years old they should be replaced (or at least checked that they are
still soft and without cracks). It made a big difference on my lathe.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA

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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Terry Christophersen]

It would be interesting for someone to use HalScope and start rotating the 
turret
and graph the magnetic sensor outputs.I think that they wont be perfectly 
spaced,
it will be close but once I had all stations to work but one.(That was without 
the stop)
That is why it is important to fire the stop before the motor stops that way it 
wont matter
if the sensor is a little off on one station.

Terry

- Original Message -
From: Ian McMahon 
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

I have somewhat unreliable tool changes as well.  Sometimes it'll miss the 
change entirely and spin two or three revolutions before the ladder times out.  
Sometimes it seems like it pops the stop too early, and catches the turret in 
the wrong position.  Often I'll hear what sounds like the stop popping early 
and it'll make the correct change, but I'll hear it whack past the previous 
station.


I'm going to try adjusting the magnet and see if that helps.


On Apr 21, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 09:17 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote:
>> With dependable tool changes on a HNC. the stop latch (under the cover on 
>> the operator side of the carrage)
>> is usually the thing to get right.Adjustments are made by removing the long 
>> black cover on the right
>> side of the carrage.Under here there is a round plug with a hex socket,BUT 
>> remember to loosen the 
>> lock set screw that comes down from the top.
>> If the turret works once or twice correctly then your problem is more than 
>> likely mechanical rather than
>> computer related.
>> A combination of the magnetic sensor and the stop cushion is more than 
>> likely the issue.
>> What I do if I had to remove the sensor for some reason is try to get the 
>> turret to work as 
>> best as you can without the stop cushion(just to make sure the sensor is 
>> very close to working)
>> then fine tune with the stop cushion.
>> It takes a little while but once you get the stop working correctly the 
>> turret will be 100 percent reliable
>> 
>> Terry
> 
> On mine, I loosen the screw for the magnet then note the actual tool
> position. I rotate the magnet forward (I forget which way) until the
> tool number matches the actual position and continue until the number
> changes to 0 or the next tool number. I back off a little to get the
> proper tool number back again. This way the logic can make a match early
> enough to activate the stop pawl in time. If the match isn't done in
> time, the table continues to rotate.
> 
> See here for the lock screw location:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/maint_man/ 
> 
> In case you haven't heard me say it before, if your seals are over three
> years old they should be replaced (or at least checked that they are
> still soft and without cracks). It made a big difference on my lathe.
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
> 
> 
> --
> For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 13:26 -0400, Ian McMahon wrote:
> I have somewhat unreliable tool changes as well.  Sometimes it'll miss
> the change entirely and spin two or three revolutions before the
> ladder times out.  Sometimes it seems like it pops the stop too early,
> and catches the turret in the wrong position.  Often I'll hear what
> sounds like the stop popping early and it'll make the correct change,
> but I'll hear it whack past the previous station.
> 
> 
> I'm going to try adjusting the magnet and see if that helps.

Mine works pretty well so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwhz3Ho_Gx0 

You might try looking at the turret signals with HALscope to make sure
the encoder values and control signals are stable.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Jon Elson]

Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> 2012/4/21 Jon Elson :
>   
>> Stuart Stevenson wrote:
>> 
>>> Would a read ahead of 1000 lines be more time consuming than the NURB
>>> calculation?
>>>   
>> A modest NURBS surface could be scanned pretty quickly to find the sharp
>> edges,
>> if any.  1000 block lookahead may not be necessary, even 100 block would
>> probably
>> suffice in most machines.
>> 
> Not sure. I have seen arcs consisting of tiny G1 moves that are really
> tiny - around 0,01 mm. 100 lines would be 1 mm.
>   
OK, there are rational toolpaths with short segments, and then there are 
IRrational
ones that have WAY too many short segments. LinuxCNC already has a filter
mode (G64) to deal with this kind of insanity. But, I don't think it is 
LinuxCNC's
responsibility to fix badly created G-code. You can always craft some kind
of G-code that is highly pathological but yet conforms to the language spec.
> I did little calcs - moving with 100 mm/s (6000 mm/min) and with
> acceleration of 1000 mm/s^2 (0,1G) it will take 5 mm to fully stop.
>   
The real problem I see is that RATIONAL G-code that was correctly written to
perform a particular operation cannot be executed as fast as the machine and
drives COULD allow it to go, due to the stop on next block requirement.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

21 квітня 2012 р. 21:00 Andrew  написав:

>
> if you have the parameters right, you may still have the phase rotatiom
>> backwards, this can be fixed by swapping 2 motor leads.
>>
>> Thanks Peter, that is possible. Can I change something in hal to avoid
> swapping wires?
>

That's not the case, unfortunately.
The wrong commutation just overheated the motor. I was lucky to notice that.
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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 10:55 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote:
> It would be interesting for someone to use HalScope and start rotating the 
> turret
> and graph the magnetic sensor outputs.I think that they wont be perfectly 
> spaced,
> it will be close but once I had all stations to work but one.(That was 
> without the stop)
> That is why it is important to fire the stop before the motor stops that way 
> it wont matter
> if the sensor is a little off on one station.
> 
> Terry

I recall my turret.comp doesn't turn the air motor off until the table
parks or rather the parking or settle time runs out. I need to get
around to adding the park Hall sensor in the loop somewhere.

~~
FUNCTION(_) {
if (position_change) {
switch (state_turret) {
case 0:
if (position_requested != position_current && position_requested>0 
&& position_requested<9) {
seek=1;
state_turret=1;
} else {
position_changed=1;
}
break;
case 1:
if (position_requested == position_current) {
stop=1;
settle=settle_stop;
state_turret=2;
}
break;
case 2:
--settle;
if (settle<=0) {
seek=0;
settle=settle_park;
state_turret=3;
}
break;
case 3:
--settle;
if (settle<=0) {
stop=0;
state_turret=0;
position_changed=1;
}
break;
default:
state_turret=0;
break;
}
} else {
seek=0;
stop=0;
position_changed=0;
}
}


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Terry Christophersen]

Another way to tell if your stop is doing the job is turn down the pressure of 
your
air supply and spin the turret at a different speed.this will tell if
you are just timing the turret with the sensor and getting lucky or if you are
using the stop correctly.slowing down the speed of the turret should not make 
you
miss stations,( I mean a little slower not 20 psi or something crazy.just till 
you notice
it is turning a little slower

Terry


 
- Original Message -
From: Kirk Wallace 
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 13:26 -0400, Ian McMahon wrote:
> I have somewhat unreliable tool changes as well.  Sometimes it'll miss
> the change entirely and spin two or three revolutions before the
> ladder times out.  Sometimes it seems like it pops the stop too early,
> and catches the turret in the wrong position.  Often I'll hear what
> sounds like the stop popping early and it'll make the correct change,
> but I'll hear it whack past the previous station.
> 
> 
> I'm going to try adjusting the magnet and see if that helps.

Mine works pretty well so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwhz3Ho_Gx0 

You might try looking at the turret signals with HALscope to make sure
the encoder values and control signals are stable.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Relay driver not working - solved

[Jon Elson]

Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> I just resoldered the same transistor for the base-collector-emitter
> pinout (collector in the middle, not base as I tried previously) and
> tested and it works.
>   
Great. If it has the same part number, it SHOULD have the same pinout!
Any maker who does it differently should be shot. What a pain!

Glad you got it figured out.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:30:11 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

21  2012 ??. 21:00 Andrew  
??:




if you have the parameters right, you may still have the phase rotatiom

backwards, this can be fixed by swapping 2 motor leads.

Thanks Peter, that is possible. Can I change something in hal to avoid

swapping wires?




That's not the case, unfortunately.
The wrong commutation just overheated the motor. I was lucky to notice that.


Yes, until you get the commutation and PID right you are using your BLDC like 
a step motor (so dont leave it on if it does not work)


You could also run from a low motor voltage until you get things working (say 
5V)


to verify that your parameters are close you can apply a small fixed drive so 
you can feel the once per cycle magnetic detent and the verify that 
bldc.N.phase-angle changes by 1 for each detent


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Re: [Emc-users] Relay driver not working

[Jon Elson]

gene heskett wrote:
>  But then which of the 
> other two are emitter and collector?
This can usually be done with a DVM with diode test.  Connect the
meter between C and E, and then connect a resistor, like 22K Ohm
between base and the suspected collector.  Note the meter reading.
If it is about 0.6 V, you got it on the first try.  If not, reverse the
C and E leads and repeat.  Whichever way gives a markedly
lower voltage reading has the transistor connected right, and
the minus probe is on the emitter for NPN or collector for
PNP.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

[Terry Christophersen]

All these tests are how I did things with the origional control
I dont know how many people on this list ran these with the old GEs, 
but I used to say a little prayer when I turned mine on,
sometimes he would listen sometimes not.
So whatever problem you have with a retrofitted one will pale
in compairison to what it used to be like. 
We used to keep whole turrets set up for a job because setting 
up 8 tools on the GE would bring tears to your eyes.
I think mine was $22,000 in 1979 ...about what a house would be around here
Not too many machines from 79 run as good.
Sorry this got a little long

Terry


- Original Message -
From: Kirk Wallace 
To: Terry Christophersen ; Enhanced Machine Controller 
(EMC) 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HCNC Retrofit/Rebuild

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 10:55 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote:
> It would be interesting for someone to use HalScope and start rotating the 
> turret
> and graph the magnetic sensor outputs.I think that they wont be perfectly 
> spaced,
> it will be close but once I had all stations to work but one.(That was 
> without the stop)
> That is why it is important to fire the stop before the motor stops that way 
> it wont matter
> if the sensor is a little off on one station.
> 
> Terry

I recall my turret.comp doesn't turn the air motor off until the table
parks or rather the parking or settle time runs out. I need to get
around to adding the park Hall sensor in the loop somewhere.

~~
FUNCTION(_) {
    if (position_change) {
        switch (state_turret) {
        case 0:
            if (position_requested != position_current && position_requested>0 
&& position_requested<9) {
            seek=1;
            state_turret=1;
            } else {
                position_changed=1;
            }
            break;
        case 1:
            if (position_requested == position_current) {
                stop=1;
                settle=settle_stop;
                state_turret=2;
            }
            break;
        case 2:
            --settle;
            if (settle<=0) {
                seek=0;
                settle=settle_park;
                state_turret=3;
            }
            break;
        case 3:
            --settle;
            if (settle<=0) {
                stop=0;
                state_turret=0;
                position_changed=1;
            }
            break;
        default:
            state_turret=0;
            break;
        }
    } else {
        seek=0;
        stop=0;
        position_changed=0;
    }
}


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA

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Re: [Emc-users] Motor controller in a 7x1* lathe, need schematic.

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 01:55:08 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:

> On 4/21/2012 11:42 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> > Hi all;
> > 
> > I was able to find a schematic for one of the earlier controllers used
> > in these machines, for one that had the external interfacing stuff on
> > a daughterboard and I suspect it might be usable as a trouble
> > shooting guide if it was printable.  But that link isn't printable,
> > for some reason pages 2 and up are blank in the print preview.
> 
> Gene:
> 
> I surmise you might be looking at the dcmotorcontroller.net site, which
> I just found via Google. When I choose schematic and try to print the
> page I get only the first bit.

Same as I got, so I right clicked and used 'flashgot all' which did not 
pull any if the images.  So I used ksnapshot, which was only somewhat 
useful but I did get some prints by loading those back into LO to print 
them.  Mine doesn't have the power transformer but has a load of 5 watt 
metal film R's in that location.

Hopefully, what I have is a bad tsop version of one of the lm324's, but 
I've not managed a trip to the shop to see if I can confirm that.  I see 
that LMS has a hookup with someone who is doing a flat rate $60 fix service 
on these boards.

The replacement board for mine would look like:


The main diff between that board and mine is that mine has a genuine 
terminal strip in the left hand green euro style connector position.  But 
other than the euro style not being nearly as dependable a connection, 
there doesn't appear to be any other diffs.

One radical thought has crossed my mind though.

If my board is good from the opto's on, are there the tools available in 
the hal modules, for me to bind my encoders output into a PWM signal and a 
dir signal and actually control my motors speed with a software PLL whose 
divisor for scale was tied to the circle styled + and - start buttons, for 
enable and dir, and the two + & - buttons below that would then adjust the 
PLL's divisor between my encoders output, with the error diff becoming the 
width modulator for the PWM output?  There would have to be a low pass 
filter in this 'correction' signal as I have found that enabling the thing 
from dead to say 500 rpms can't be done as it will clear the fuse in about 
1/2 rev of the motor, the acceleration is quite violent.

> However, the schematics consist of a
> bunch of gif files which you can select and print individually by the
> simple expediency of right-clicking each image, opening it in a new tab,
> and printing.

Didn't try that just now, but I did save the individual images, thank you 
very much for the hint.  I am a bit lost as FF used to have a view page src 
function where you could pick out addresses and wget the stuff you wanted.  
This seems to work as well, and once used to it, just as useful.
 
> > The controller in my lathe is probably the next generation, no
> > daughterboard because the mini-dip chips that were on the
> > daughterboard were shrunk down to tsop stuff, allowing the whole
> > thing to be fitted to only 1 pcb assembly.  Also, no power
> > transformer, instead a bunch of 5 watt metal film R's occupy that
> > location on my board.

LMS has that board, for $121.  On BO though till next week estimated. 

> > I have also found a hookup schematic that incorporates an extra
> > cnc/manual switch and reversing relay that my current interface board
> > should work with, so what I need now is a working schematic.  Does
> > any one have such a beast?
> 
> The hookup schematics on the littlemachineshop.com site?
> 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> So far, I haven't had the need to open the controller case of my
> (manual) late-model Micro-Mark lathe. I'll be happy to hear what you
> learn.
 
Which I'll gleefully relate, once its working.  But you make me jealous, 
your Micro-Mark is apparently a much finer finished machine than my 
SpeedWay.  I haven't touched anything on this lathe that hasn't needed 
drastic refitting.  While I like the idea of my Z drive, where I installed 
a home made taper lock hub into a 40 tooth metal change gear, and have the 
425 motor mounted on the  left, and engaging an 80 tooth change gear on the 
OEM screw, the backlash and spongyness of the half nut is going to need 
another session of fine tuning that will still leave at least .010" of 
backlash and springiness in the drive. Its currently in the 0.030" range.  
Some of that may be in the carriage to bed fit as the original carriage, 
when pulled firmly to the v-way, was then tilted up by about 80 thou at the 
back of the bed!  I turned the carriage over and tried to correct the V 
angles on my mill, but its possible its a bit hourglass shaped so it can 
turn a few seconds left & right.  I can't see as that is whats happening, 
and I don't have a 2nd _matching_ dial indicator I could read the back of 
the carriage with, not yet anyway.

Little pissy-assed thing

Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

21 квітня 2012 р. 21:39 Peter C. Wallace  написав:

> Yes, until you get the commutation and PID right you are using your BLDC
> like a step motor (so dont leave it on if it does not work)
>
> You could also run from a low motor voltage until you get things working
> (say 5V)
>

I use 20V now, it's ok.

>
> to verify that your parameters are close you can apply a small fixed drive
> so you can feel the once per cycle magnetic detent and the verify that
> bldc.N.phase-angle changes by 1 for each detent
>

With
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.A-value 0
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.B-value 5
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.C-value 0
I watched phase angle and from one detent to another it changed one cycle
from 0.25 to 0.25 with scale 14400 and poles 2.
But the commutation is still wrong. When I start the machine normally and
move the axis, it stops after short move, bldc value is high, but nothing
moves.

That's interesting: when the machine is ON, there's a position where phase
angle suddenly jumps say from 0.22 to 0.72, exactly when bldc value
crossing 0 and changes its sign. But phase angle goes through the same
point without jump when the machine is OFF! What is it?
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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/4/21 Jon Elson :
>
> The real problem I see is that RATIONAL G-code that was correctly written to
> perform a particular operation cannot be executed as fast as the machine and
> drives COULD allow it to go, due to the stop on next block requirement.

I agree.
What I see the big issue for solving this in trajectory planner or
whatever _inside_ LinuxCNC is that I do not see, how to determine by
some hard facts, what is the best way to determine the lookup amount.
Certain number of lines or a certain travel distance? Ok, when the
method is chosen, how to determine, what is the optimum value?

That is why I am in favor of adding a separate filter, which would
take the code and rephrase it to what is really in there - either arcs
or splines/nurbs. In this case the file would be processed, when
loaded (I have not really understood, when it would be processed in
the first variant - also on loading or on the fly, when it is
executed), so it definitely would not affect realtime performance,
because the file would not be executed at that time. I think that
waiting 10-20 seconds for the PC to recalculate the path and find,
what curves would fit the existing profile, defined by tiny G1s.

Viesturs

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:53:55 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

21  2012 ??. 21:39 Peter C. Wallace  
??:



Yes, until you get the commutation and PID right you are using your BLDC
like a step motor (so dont leave it on if it does not work)

You could also run from a low motor voltage until you get things working
(say 5V)



I use 20V now, it's ok.



to verify that your parameters are close you can apply a small fixed drive
so you can feel the once per cycle magnetic detent and the verify that
bldc.N.phase-angle changes by 1 for each detent


With
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.A-value 0
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.B-value 5
setp hm2_7i43.0.3pwmgen.00.C-value 0
I watched phase angle and from one detent to another it changed one cycle
from 0.25 to 0.25 with scale 14400 and poles 2.
But the commutation is still wrong. When I start the machine normally and
move the axis, it stops after short move, bldc value is high, but nothing
moves.

That's interesting: when the machine is ON, there's a position where phase
angle suddenly jumps say from 0.22 to 0.72, exactly when bldc value
crossing 0 and changes its sign. But phase angle goes through the same
point without jump when the machine is OFF! What is it?



This is normal (the sign of the BLDC value determines whether the drive 
voltage leads or lags the reference angle by 90 electrical degrees)


might try inverting the sign on your encoder scale (or bldc scale)


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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,

  Since we have discussed this so long I have remembered a project that
would be similar and maybe be completed at the same time. I want to
implement 5 axis cutter compensation. Currently, LinuxCNC's cutter
compensation takes the cutter radius into consideration. This makes the
implementation of 5 axis cutter diameter compensation a problematic
scenario.
thanks
Stuart


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Re: [Emc-users] Relay driver not working

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 05:06:04 PM Jon Elson did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> >  But then which of the
> > 
> > other two are emitter and collector?
> 
> This can usually be done with a DVM with diode test.  Connect the
> meter between C and E, and then connect a resistor, like 22K Ohm
> between base and the suspected collector.  Note the meter reading.
> If it is about 0.6 V, you got it on the first try.  If not, reverse the
> C and E leads and repeat.  Whichever way gives a markedly
> lower voltage reading has the transistor connected right, and
> the minus probe is on the emitter for NPN or collector for
> PNP.
> 
> Jon

Also correct Jon.  But those results can, depending on the DVM, be a bit 
ambiguous.  Verify that ones DVM works similar to this with a known good 
transistor.  Those meters that only output something under a volt, may or 
may not work exactly, but they will be consistent for that meter.  I like 
the open circuit voltage to be something above a volt as this 'gain test' 
is much more obvious.  I had a Beckman/Waveteck at the tv station that only 
made about .85 volts at the probe tips, so that one took some getting used 
to & needed about a 10k resistor. 22k just barely came in range on most 
bugs.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Relay driver not working - solved

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 05:16:18 PM Jon Elson did opine:

> Viesturs Lؤپcis wrote:
> > I just resoldered the same transistor for the base-collector-emitter
> > pinout (collector in the middle, not base as I tried previously) and
> > tested and it works.
> 
> Great. If it has the same part number, it SHOULD have the same pinout!
> Any maker who does it differently should be shot. What a pain!
> 
Yep, and I'll load the ammo.

> Glad you got it figured out.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> -- For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
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Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

21 квітня 2012 р. 23:04 Peter C. Wallace  написав:

> might try inverting the sign on your encoder scale (or bldc scale


I already did that, with no success. But out af a sudden it works
now. Though still unstable.
Now tuning PID.
What is minimum servo period for 7i43? I set 50 and it became much more
stable.
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 00:42:18 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

21  2012 ??. 23:04 Peter C. Wallace  
??:



might try inverting the sign on your encoder scale (or bldc scale




I already did that, with no success. But out af a sudden it works
now. Though still unstable.
Now tuning PID.
What is minimum servo period for 7i43? I set 50 and it became much more
stable.



Minimum period depends on how many I/O cycles you do and how much of the host 
cycles you are willing to burn up doing I/O. with the parallel ports I've 
tested with, I get between 3-6 Usec of I/O time for each 32 bit register 
read/write on the EPP interfaced 7I43. So a three axis system may have about 
18-20 I/O cycles you would use about 54 to 120 usec of host time doing EPP I/O


for a simple 3 or 4 axis system 4KHz may be possible (note: the 7I43 is the 
slowest FPGA card we make due to the EPP interface ~8-12 times slower than the 
PCI cards)


Tuning a voltage mode (or current mode = torque mode) drive is tricky you will 
need a fair amount of P and D and FF1. The higher the sample rate the better 
for phase margin (which will allow high stable gain). Also tuning should be 
done with the carriage loaded and FF1 especially should be tuned with the 
final motor voltage as FF1 is motor voltage dependent on a a voltage mode 
drive


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics--
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[Emc-users] LinuxCNC & Sandybridge

[Charles Steinkuehler]

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Installed from the LinuxCNC live CD to my test Intel Sandybridge
system (Intel DQ670W motherboard) and am having issues with networking.

It appears the kernel is old enough to not recognize either the
on-board GigE network port or to talk to the PCI bridge to allow me to
use any of the old 100 MBit PCI cards I have lying around (nothing I
plug into the PCI slot shows up via lspci).

So...does anyone have some modules pre-compiled for somewhat newer
hardware, or other suggestions for getting networking running?

- -- 
Charles Steinkuehler
char...@steinkuehler.net
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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[charles green]

optimum value for planning ahead for a possible stop or maximum acceleration 
change:  take current feed for current block and maximum possible accel of 
machine to get distance required for stop.  then next N blocks that cover that 
distance, and apply appropriately modified feeds to them.

think of a gcode file as a matrix, each row would correspond to a block, the 
first several columns are all the various gcodes, the next several are all the 
various x1..xn axes, then several columns covering offset vectors, feeds, 
spindle, various Ms, etc.  then just tack on another column that is the 
achievable feed.  when file is loaded to controller, it gets scanned to fill in 
the values in the actual feetrate column.  maybe there is another similar 
column for actual spindle speed that gets filled in similarly, in case it's 
being used like a c axis to get coordinated revolution.

at program execution, the calculated realistic values columns are used to 
generate motion. soft program stops during execution may run out a few blocks.  
estops are an emergency situation, so who knows..  single stepping is usual one 
line check based on stop at end of block.

are there not already some 'hidden' columns x1'..xn' that result from cutter 
radius compensation?

i guess i'm thinking of linear programs, so in the case of loops and subroutine 
calls, the end result is a much longer list of actually executed blocks.  maybe 
it never ends (= bad gcode).  probing would also not fit the scheme very well - 
maybe consider probing blocks to be bounded in the code by stops?  or, what if 
there were choices between more flavors of operation:  advanced lookahead 
flavor would not allow nuts in it like conditional loops or surprise probings; 
crazy probe scanner routine mode wouldnt have the texture advantage of nice 
feedrate smoothness.



--- On Sat, 4/21/12, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:

> From: Viesturs Lācis 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a 
> EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Saturday, April 21, 2012, 12:58 PM
> 2012/4/21 Jon Elson :
> >
> > The real problem I see is that RATIONAL G-code that was
> correctly written to
> > perform a particular operation cannot be executed as
> fast as the machine and
> > drives COULD allow it to go, due to the stop on next
> block requirement.
> 
> I agree.
> What I see the big issue for solving this in trajectory
> planner or
> whatever _inside_ LinuxCNC is that I do not see, how to
> determine by
> some hard facts, what is the best way to determine the
> lookup amount.
> Certain number of lines or a certain travel distance? Ok,
> when the
> method is chosen, how to determine, what is the optimum
> value?
> 
> That is why I am in favor of adding a separate filter, which
> would
> take the code and rephrase it to what is really in there -
> either arcs
> or splines/nurbs. In this case the file would be processed,
> when
> loaded (I have not really understood, when it would be
> processed in
> the first variant - also on loading or on the fly, when it
> is
> executed), so it definitely would not affect realtime
> performance,
> because the file would not be executed at that time. I think
> that
> waiting 10-20 seconds for the PC to recalculate the path and
> find,
> what curves would fit the existing profile, defined by tiny
> G1s.
> 
> Viesturs
> 
> --
> For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
> Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You.
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> FREE!
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

22 квітня 2012 р. 02:04 Peter C. Wallace  написав:

> Minimum period depends on how many I/O cycles you do and how much of the
> host cycles you are willing to burn up doing I/O. with the parallel ports
> I've tested with, I get between 3-6 Usec of I/O time for each 32 bit
> register read/write on the EPP interfaced 7I43. So a three axis system may
> have about 18-20 I/O cycles you would use about 54 to 120 usec of host time
> doing EPP I/O
>
> for a simple 3 or 4 axis system 4KHz may be possible (note: the 7I43 is
> the slowest FPGA card we make due to the EPP interface ~8-12 times slower
> than the PCI cards)
>

25ns seems ok for one axis. Tomorrow I'll try all 3.


> Tuning a voltage mode (or current mode = torque mode) drive is tricky you
> will need a fair amount of P and D and FF1. The higher the sample rate the
> better for phase margin (which will allow high stable gain). Also tuning
> should be done with the carriage loaded and FF1 especially should be tuned
> with the final motor voltage as FF1 is motor voltage dependent on a a
> voltage mode drive
>
> Already doing 1m/s with 40m/s2 acceleration, not so bad. But still have to
tune pid better, max error is up to 1mm. When I add D, much noise appears
on PID output.
Generally linear motors are well-controlled, I hope it's possible to
decrease f-error to 0.1-0.2mm. I probably should increase PWM frequency,
now it's 15000.
Thanks for your help.

Andrew
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 02:20:51 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

22  2012 ??. 02:04 Peter C. Wallace  
??:



Minimum period depends on how many I/O cycles you do and how much of the
host cycles you are willing to burn up doing I/O. with the parallel ports
I've tested with, I get between 3-6 Usec of I/O time for each 32 bit
register read/write on the EPP interfaced 7I43. So a three axis system may
have about 18-20 I/O cycles you would use about 54 to 120 usec of host time
doing EPP I/O

for a simple 3 or 4 axis system 4KHz may be possible (note: the 7I43 is
the slowest FPGA card we make due to the EPP interface ~8-12 times slower
than the PCI cards)




25ns seems ok for one axis. Tomorrow I'll try all 3.




Tuning a voltage mode (or current mode = torque mode) drive is tricky you
will need a fair amount of P and D and FF1. The higher the sample rate the
better for phase margin (which will allow high stable gain). Also tuning
should be done with the carriage loaded and FF1 especially should be tuned
with the final motor voltage as FF1 is motor voltage dependent on a a
voltage mode drive

Already doing 1m/s with 40m/s2 acceleration, not so bad. But still have to
tune pid better, max error is up to 1mm. When I add D, much noise appears
on PID output.


Are you using the encoder velocity output to feed to the pid components 
fb-deriv pin?


If not already doing this, this can improve the D noise situation


Generally linear motors are well-controlled, I hope it's possible to
decrease f-error to 0.1-0.2mm. I probably should increase PWM frequency,
now it's 15000.
Thanks for your help.



Andrew


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andy Pugh]

On 21 Apr 2012, at 18:30, "Peter C. Wallace"  wrote:

> 
> if you have the parameters right, you may still have the phase rotatiom 
> backwards, this can be fixed by swapping 2 motor leads.

Actually, it is easier to use a negative encoder scale into bldc. In fact that 
will be necessary in 50% of installations. 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC & Sandybridge

[Charles Steinkuehler]

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On 4/21/2012 1:26 PM, Charles Steinkuehler wrote:
> Installed from the LinuxCNC live CD to my test Intel Sandybridge 
> system (Intel DQ670W motherboard) and am having issues with
> networking.
> 
> It appears the kernel is old enough to not recognize either the 
> on-board GigE network port or to talk to the PCI bridge to allow me
> to use any of the old 100 MBit PCI cards I have lying around
> (nothing I plug into the PCI slot shows up via lspci).
> 
> So...does anyone have some modules pre-compiled for somewhat newer 
> hardware, or other suggestions for getting networking running?

Never mind...I chroot'd into the LinuxCNC Ubuntu install from a
parallel Debian wheezy installation, which allowed me to grab
build-essentials and the Intel e1000e driver source off the 'net.  I
also installed the linux-image-generic-lts-backport-natty (2.6.38) as
a fall-back if I ever need newer HW support temporarily until I can
build it for the 2.6.32 RTAI kernel.

I guess I didn't really realize how long in the tooth 2.6.32 had
gotten...where _does_ the time go?!?  :)

- -- 
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char...@steinkuehler.net
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Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)

[Jon Elson]

Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> What I see the big issue for solving this in trajectory planner or
> whatever _inside_ LinuxCNC is that I do not see, how to determine by
> some hard facts, what is the best way to determine the lookup amount.
>   
The number of blocks you need to look ahead is variable. The way I 
imagine it,
you'd look ahead until you found a move that violates the requested speed
due to acceleration. Then, you have to work backwards from that point to
find out what block you need to begin slowing down at.

Some other methods, like a fixed number of blocks might be easier to 
implement,
and would improve on the current situation. For instance, adding just ONE
single block more lookahead might increase speeds by a factor of TWO in
the worst case. Of course, if you can do it for 2 blocks, it should be 
relatively
easy to extend that to 10 blocks. By adding this to the naive cam detector,
that might be enough to make many users happy. A 10-block lookahead
seems like it would not take excessive CPU or memory resources, while the
scheme described in the previous paragraph just might.

Jon

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[Emc-users] Fixed Dwell

[Mike Bennett]

Hi

I'm nearing the end of building a DIY gantry router.  The router I'm using has 
soft start, so takes several seconds to come up to speed.  I realise I could 
add dwell commands to the G-Code, but is it possible to add a fixed dwell to 
Linux CNC after spindle start.

From reading other posts I see that HAL has a spindle-at-speed input that is 
intended to be used with encoders, but could it be used with a timer?

Mike



On 22 Apr 2012, at 00:12, charles green  wrote:

> optimum value for planning ahead for a possible stop or maximum acceleration 
> change:  take current feed for current block and maximum possible accel of 
> machine to get distance required for stop.  then next N blocks that cover 
> that distance, and apply appropriately modified feeds to them.
> 
> think of a gcode file as a matrix, each row would correspond to a block, the 
> first several columns are all the various gcodes, the next several are all 
> the various x1..xn axes, then several columns covering offset vectors, feeds, 
> spindle, various Ms, etc.  then just tack on another column that is the 
> achievable feed.  when file is loaded to controller, it gets scanned to fill 
> in the values in the actual feetrate column.  maybe there is another similar 
> column for actual spindle speed that gets filled in similarly, in case it's 
> being used like a c axis to get coordinated revolution.
> 
> at program execution, the calculated realistic values columns are used to 
> generate motion. soft program stops during execution may run out a few 
> blocks.  estops are an emergency situation, so who knows..  single stepping 
> is usual one line check based on stop at end of block.
> 
> are there not already some 'hidden' columns x1'..xn' that result from cutter 
> radius compensation?
> 
> i guess i'm thinking of linear programs, so in the case of loops and 
> subroutine calls, the end result is a much longer list of actually executed 
> blocks.  maybe it never ends (= bad gcode).  probing would also not fit the 
> scheme very well - maybe consider probing blocks to be bounded in the code by 
> stops?  or, what if there were choices between more flavors of operation:  
> advanced lookahead flavor would not allow nuts in it like conditional loops 
> or surprise probings; crazy probe scanner routine mode wouldnt have the 
> texture advantage of nice feedrate smoothness.
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 4/21/12, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:
> 
>> From: Viesturs Lācis 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a 
>> EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
>> Date: Saturday, April 21, 2012, 12:58 PM
>> 2012/4/21 Jon Elson :
>>> 
>>> The real problem I see is that RATIONAL G-code that was
>> correctly written to
>>> perform a particular operation cannot be executed as
>> fast as the machine and
>>> drives COULD allow it to go, due to the stop on next
>> block requirement.
>> 
>> I agree.
>> What I see the big issue for solving this in trajectory
>> planner or
>> whatever _inside_ LinuxCNC is that I do not see, how to
>> determine by
>> some hard facts, what is the best way to determine the
>> lookup amount.
>> Certain number of lines or a certain travel distance? Ok,
>> when the
>> method is chosen, how to determine, what is the optimum
>> value?
>> 
>> That is why I am in favor of adding a separate filter, which
>> would
>> take the code and rephrase it to what is really in there -
>> either arcs
>> or splines/nurbs. In this case the file would be processed,
>> when
>> loaded (I have not really understood, when it would be
>> processed in
>> the first variant - also on loading or on the fly, when it
>> is
>> executed), so it definitely would not affect realtime
>> performance,
>> because the file would not be executed at that time. I think
>> that
>> waiting 10-20 seconds for the PC to recalculate the path and
>> find,
>> what curves would fit the existing profile, defined by tiny
>> G1s.
>> 
>> Viesturs
>> 
>> --
>> For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
>> Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You.
>> Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it
>> FREE!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
> 
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