[Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

The sim on this machine is still broken, home switches are left activated 
so it can't be rehomed. And everytime I try to update it, all my hacks 
to duplicate the other machines I have disappear.

Is there not some way to update master sim without nukeing the config 
files where I did have the operating envelope defined? I'd also hacked 
up a timer to simulate a probe hit in one of the hal files, and a couple 
other things in the hal dept.

Loseing all that, which I don't lose on the real machine when upgradeing 
their master, tends to make the sim pretty worthless. Right now its the 
envelope limits that are way too small, zup limit is only .1" for 
instance, when both of the real machines can move both sides of z=0 by 
several inches due to the jackup needed for r8 changeing when a big 
drill chuck is in the r8.  And the x+ limit won't allow this code to 
run. Period, no run anyway works.

What it also did, pointed to a extra move that wasn't needed, the sim 
complained about not enough room for a leadin G42 move, while the real 
thing was happy as a lark. Turned out to need a short move back to 0,0 
before I started cutting holes. Either move was several tool radius's

Its 50F out, so I think I'll go feed the missus and take my one lonesome 
4mm tool out and try it.

Merry Christmas everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 14:00, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> The sim on this machine is still broken, home switches are left activated
> so it can't be rehomed.

Why do you care about re-homing the sim configs? I accept that it
isn't ideal as an example for LinuxCNC newbies, but you are running
real hardware.
And if just testing ideas in the sims, why re-home? (Do you habitually
re-home your real machines).

In any case, you can jog the axes off of the home switches and then
re-home, if you really need to.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 21 December 2018 09:07:15 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 14:00, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > The sim on this machine is still broken, home switches are left
> > activated so it can't be rehomed.
>
> Why do you care about re-homing the sim configs? I accept that it
> isn't ideal as an example for LinuxCNC newbies, but you are running
> real hardware.

Not on this machine here in the house, it has no hardware to run.

> And if just testing ideas in the sims, why re-home? (Do you habitually
> re-home your real machines).

The machine in question, yes, has no home switches since I used the last 
i/o on the parport for a shared limit switch to keep from unscrewing the 
screw out of the nut. and I usually put home at the left front of the 
material on the table, and run + for both axis's from there. But the 
overide limits checkbox ate my lunch when I hit the wrong keyboard key, 
while watching the dro because I need about .25" away from that switch 
to run this program.

I'd just say to hell with it and buy a bare gantry & move all the motors, 
but most gantry's don't have enough z-up to change tools. I am sure 
tired of fighting with the short x screw in this one though.

> In any case, you can jog the axes off of the home switches and then
> re-home, if you really need to.

 But that doesn't home it where I need it, it homes it to wherever I 
jogged it to.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 21 December 2018 14:36:50 Gene Heskett wrote:

What do you folks think of this:

It looks as if I could almost plug it into the motor drivers from this 
machines controller, at least the plugs shown in the pix sure look 
familiar.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 21 December 2018 15:05:30 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Friday 21 December 2018 14:36:50 Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> What do you folks think of this:
> aving-Drilling-Milling-Machine/163037438074?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26al
>go%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D28189aeb80c24961aa
>e24f9b6b2431c1%26pid%3D15%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D2
>53779171110%26itm%3D163037438074&_trksid=p2047675.c15.m1851> It
> looks as if I could almost plug it into the motor drivers from this
> machines controller, at least the plugs shown in the pix sure look
> familiar.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

Actually, no one has commented, and since I haven't given me a birthday 
or Christmas present in several years, and for another 100 bucks I get a 
1500 watt watercooled motor with an er11 collet, so I'm tempted to drop 
the card. I've spent way more than $1185 on this teeny little hf mill 
trying to make it usefull over the last 15+ years. And I spend 1/3 of 
that on smoke for my lady a month because she can't quit. 3 cartons=$164 
& change, lasts about 10-11 days. Thats $450 or so a month.

So I made an offer at his asking, but keep the controller and throw in a 
water tank and a set of er-11 collets.

I'll drive it with what I have, and weigh this POS HF for scrap. If he 
takes the offer, Jan 4th should find it on my front deck.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 20:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> What do you folks think of this:
> 

Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 21 December 2018 20:16:04 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 20:07, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > What do you folks think of this:
> > 
> If it is to replace a mildly broken sim config... Don't be daft.

I expect the sim to get fixed, eventually. No hurry but I reserve the 
right to mention it annually. ;-)  Squeaky wheel theory and all that...

No Andy, its to replace the 15+ yo HF I've spent twice that trying yo 
make it usefull, and I unscrewed the x screw out of its ball nut today 
trying to find another 1/4 of x to carve this panel.  But I stepped up 
the the 1500 watt motor with an er-11 collet, and offered him his 
asking, keep the controller but throw in a set of er-11 collets and the 
water tank.  Now I gotta make a lower table to put it on  as I don't 
think the gantry with z up will clear the shelf the keyboard and the 
detrious heap of handy tools etc, that this mill extends its x table 
under when working on its left end.

> If you want it, then go for it.

If he takes it, yep.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Kenneth Lerman]

I suspect that it will be very lacking in rigidity. The width of the gantry
is very large compared to the distance between the supports. That means the
gantry will tend to cock with respect to the table. Also, as you press down
on the Z axis, the gantry  will want to lift on one side because of the
moment caused by the fact that the tool isn't directly under the gantry.

It's a router. It's not a milling machine. But my understanding is that you
do lots of work in wood. It will probably be fine for that.

Ken

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:43 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 21 December 2018 20:16:04 andy pugh wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 20:07, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> > > What do you folks think of this:
> > >  >
> > If it is to replace a mildly broken sim config... Don't be daft.
>
> I expect the sim to get fixed, eventually. No hurry but I reserve the
> right to mention it annually. ;-)  Squeaky wheel theory and all that...
>
> No Andy, its to replace the 15+ yo HF I've spent twice that trying yo
> make it usefull, and I unscrewed the x screw out of its ball nut today
> trying to find another 1/4 of x to carve this panel.  But I stepped up
> the the 1500 watt motor with an er-11 collet, and offered him his
> asking, keep the controller but throw in a set of er-11 collets and the
> water tank.  Now I gotta make a lower table to put it on  as I don't
> think the gantry with z up will clear the shelf the keyboard and the
> detrious heap of handy tools etc, that this mill extends its x table
> under when working on its left end.
>
> > If you want it, then go for it.
>
> If he takes it, yep.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Jon Elson]

On 12/22/2018 04:18 PM, Kenneth Lerman wrote:

I suspect that it will be very lacking in rigidity.
Yes, I think you might be right.  55 Kg machine weight.  The 
round rails ARE fully-supported, but the slider bearings are 
pretty short.  Looks like a decent spindle.  But, it sure is 
no Bridgeport.
It is sold as a router/engraver.  You won't be able to drill 
any holes larger than .1" maybe with that
spindle.  Is it using Vee-rollers on an aluminum extrusion 
for the Y ways?


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 22 December 2018 17:18:45 Kenneth Lerman wrote:

> I suspect that it will be very lacking in rigidity. The width of the
> gantry is very large compared to the distance between the supports.
> That means the gantry will tend to cock with respect to the table.
> Also, as you press down on the Z axis, the gantry  will want to lift
> on one side because of the moment caused by the fact that the tool
> isn't directly under the gantry.
>
> It's a router. It's not a milling machine. But my understanding is
> that you do lots of work in wood. It will probably be fine for that.
>
That is true. But I got tired of trying to communicate with him, no 
customization would be discussed so I looked around and found another 
machine with a few mm smaller x, a lot more z, still the 1500 watt water 
cooled spindle with an ER-11 collet. Design to be run by mach3 
(hock,spit). 4 axis also. The only thing I could not find with any 
search terms was a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump in.  
I might be able to use the plastic tub dishwasher packets come in but 
its only a quart, might warm up too fast in the summertime. Anyway the 
card's been supplied, should be here by the 3rd as its in kalipornia 
now. I'd assume a 15 piece set of ER-11 collets from a different vendor 
will be about that slow, quality unk as they were under a tenner for the 
set. Submitted about 1/2 hour ago, but no confirming msg yet. Around 
$1130 for this one including the collets. Looks like a better chuck on 
the A axis too. 57 motors, 6560 drivers. Are they any good?

> Ken
>
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:43 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Friday 21 December 2018 20:16:04 andy pugh wrote:
> > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 20:07, Gene Heskett 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > What do you folks think of this:
> > > >  > >
> > > If it is to replace a mildly broken sim config... Don't be daft.
> >
> > I expect the sim to get fixed, eventually. No hurry but I reserve
> > the right to mention it annually. ;-)  Squeaky wheel theory and all
> > that...
> >
> > No Andy, its to replace the 15+ yo HF I've spent twice that trying
> > yo make it usefull, and I unscrewed the x screw out of its ball nut
> > today trying to find another 1/4 of x to carve this panel.  But I
> > stepped up the the 1500 watt motor with an er-11 collet, and offered
> > him his asking, keep the controller but throw in a set of er-11
> > collets and the water tank.  Now I gotta make a lower table to put
> > it on  as I don't think the gantry with z up will clear the shelf
> > the keyboard and the detrious heap of handy tools etc, that this
> > mill extends its x table under when working on its left end.
> >
> > > If you want it, then go for it.
> >
> > If he takes it, yep.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 22 December 2018 18:06:21 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/22/2018 04:18 PM, Kenneth Lerman wrote:
> > I suspect that it will be very lacking in rigidity.
>
> Yes, I think you might be right.  55 Kg machine weight.  The
> round rails ARE fully-supported, but the slider bearings are
> pretty short.  Looks like a decent spindle.  But, it sure is
> no Bridgeport.
> It is sold as a router/engraver.  You won't be able to drill
> any holes larger than .1" maybe with that
> spindle.  Is it using Vee-rollers on an aluminum extrusion
> for the Y ways?
>
> Jon
>
Not ack the description Jon, regular ball bearing sliders on chrome 
plated rods. And I just got the confirmation on the collets 14$ and 
change for 15 so they may be a bit sloppy. But there no limit on the 
hole size as I drill holes with this SUB, slow, but works.

sub drills holes for db retainer screws, 4 x usage)
o130 SUB
G40
F15 (feed rate)
(arrives here at center of hole, change this to take a passed argument 
for radius)
G0 Z#<_ZUP> ( clear work)
G0 X[#2 - 0.3] Y[#3 - 0.3] (move away for G42 blend in)
G42 D15 X[#1 + #2] y#3
G0 Z0
g4p.1
M3
G3 F#4 I-#1 J-0.000 Z#<_ZDN> P9
f15
G0 Z#<_ZUP> (back to clear)
G40
M5

o130 ENDSUB

If it can't handle that at 2x the revs the old one can do, or 5 grand, 84 
hertz, its really a piece of crap. But I do like to throw as big a chip 
as I can because that will control the heat at the tool. Higher revs, 
and a higher feed rate ought to work just fine with the bit up to its 
gonads in cutting oil. Keeping the cut surface sealed in oil knocks the 
heat back to just cutting friction because if its sealed, no oxygen gets 
to the alu to burnt a new coat of oxide on the alu long before the next 
cutting edge comes by. Thats 95% of the heat when cutting alu dry.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Jon Elson]

On 12/22/2018 05:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
The only thing I could not find with any search terms was 
a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump in.
There are things called "condensate drain pumps" that you 
put near a furnace/AC evaporator to get rid of the water 
when a floor drain is not handy.  They have a blue tub and a 
Little Giant pump in them.
A variety of Little Giant pumps should be available on eBay 
and Amazon that will do, depending on how much pressure the 
spindle needs to provide adequate flow.  I use an old 
hydrator from a refrigerator (the fact it is enameled steel 
should give some indication of the age!)


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Jon Elson]

On 12/22/2018 06:17 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


Not ack the description Jon, regular ball bearing sliders on chrome
plated rods.
Yes, clearly visible on X and Z, but I could NOT see the Y 
(along the gantry rail) mechanism.

  And I just got the confirmation on the collets 14$ and
change for 15 so they may be a bit sloppy.

Good price, though!

  But there no limit on the
hole size as I drill holes with this SUB, slow, but works.

Yes, I have some panels that have a bunch of different size 
holes in them that I do from time to time.
I do the 4-40 clearance holes with a drill, but everything 
larger than that is milled out with a 1/8" end mill.  
Milling out the holes is much faster than changing the drill 
a whole bunch of times and having to re-set the Z for each 
drill bit.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 22 December 2018 20:08:14 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/22/2018 06:17 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Not ack the description Jon, regular ball bearing sliders on chrome
> > plated rods.
>
> Yes, clearly visible on X and Z, but I could NOT see the Y
> (along the gantry rail) mechanism.
>
> >   And I just got the confirmation on the collets 14$ and
> > change for 15 so they may be a bit sloppy.
>
> Good price, though!
>
> >   But there no limit on the
> > hole size as I drill holes with this SUB, slow, but works.
>
> Yes, I have some panels that have a bunch of different size
> holes in them that I do from time to time.
> I do the 4-40 clearance holes with a drill, but everything
> larger than that is milled out with a 1/8" end mill.
> Milling out the holes is much faster than changing the drill
> a whole bunch of times and having to re-set the Z for each
> drill bit.
>
> Jon
>
Thats a lesson I learned long ago. Not to mention an odd size hole you 
don't have a drill for is a zero problem. Need a hole 2& 5/8" in 
diameter for a bearing seat. Measure the bearing,  * 0.5, for radius and 
the fit is usually warm the socket and drop in, or tap it in. When I'm 
doing furniture in Green & Green style, I do normal math but diddle the 
tool diameter for a proper glue fit between the fingers. .247" for a 
1/4" tool seems about right when working in Mahogany. Cherry, ash or 
Maple cuts cleaner & might do at .248". Poplar is hairy stuff, 
needs .245 to .246"
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 22 December 2018 20:02:53 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/22/2018 05:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The only thing I could not find with any search terms was
> > a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump in.
>
> There are things called "condensate drain pumps" that you
> put near a furnace/AC evaporator to get rid of the water
> when a floor drain is not handy.  They have a blue tub and a
> Little Giant pump in them.
> A variety of Little Giant pumps should be available on eBay
> and Amazon that will do, depending on how much pressure the
> spindle needs to provide adequate flow.

The pump and some hosing is supplied.

> I use an old hydrator from a refrigerator (the fact it is enameled 
> steel should give some indication of the age!)

= not too much younger than I.  5 generations of Hector the famous puppy 
have been whelped and died since the last time I saw one of them _new_. 
IOW, Jon, guard it well, its a valuable antique. I have a plastic drawer 
from wallies in mind, or something along that line. Probably have to 
build a table, so I'll make room under its top for that. The rest of it 
will be tooling etc hidey places. Its a Murphy's Law, you never have 
enough of that sort of room. ;-)

> Jon

Cheers Jon, & have a Merry Christmas, Gene Heskett.

-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 at 23:50, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> The only thing I could not find with any
> search terms was a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump in.

The only water-cooled installation I have seen used something that
seemed to be similar to a CPU cooler setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhWldfNLdKw

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 23 December 2018 05:32:02 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 at 23:50, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > The only thing I could not find with any
> > search terms was a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump
> > in.
>
> The only water-cooled installation I have seen used something that
> seemed to be similar to a CPU cooler setup:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhWldfNLdKw

That would likely work, but I had, since the motor needs the mass more 
than the instant cooling, and I have seen some of those machines without 
the radiator but with a gallon or so plastic tank the pump is submerged 
in, so I had visions of drawer holding enough water to submerge the pump 
fully,  gallon or so. It would really have to be working hard and steady 
for a couple hours to get it good and hot.  I've an aircooled 1 HP, and 
I've left it running on the table at 24k revs for half an hour or more , 
virtually no heat and all I can hear is the swish of its air. Dead 
smooth, well built motor, came with the vfd thats now on the Sheldon, 
but never found the round tuit to do something with it. Too big and 
heavy to fit well on the side of the G0704. The collet may not be an 
ER-11 either, haven't looked recently enough to recall. 

But any plastic drawer is going to need to be pretty rigid stuff, water 
gets heavy after a while.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Bruce Layne]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 at 23:50, Gene Heskett  wrote:


The only thing I could not find with any
search terms was a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump in.


I have a Chinese water cooled spindle on two different home built CNC 
routers.  I used a 5 gallon plastic bucket for the coolant tank on 
each.  They were free with a cat litter purchase.  The plastic snap on 
top is hinged.  The back 1/3 stays snapped in place and the front 2/3 
can be hinged open in case I ever need to dump the coolant, add to it, 
etc.  The lid keeps dust and debris out of the closed loop coolant 
system.  A small pump is submerged in the coolant and the power cord for 
the pump and the coolant inlet and outlet hoses are routed through the 
back third of the lid that remains snapped onto the top of the bucket.


You don't need a big pump regardless of the size of the spindle motor.  
I use a small Little Giant pump that's often sold for fountains, 
hydroponics, etc.  I get the best version they make and it's still 
inexpensive.  Good brands include Superior and the upper end versions of 
Little Giant.  Here are a couple of possible examples.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/362400850664

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233055122922

I like the magnetic drive submersible pumps for reliability.  I'd pay a 
little more for a long power cord to get any electrical splices well 
away from the coolant and a pipe thread outlet port so you can easily 
find a fitting to connect to the weird metric sized very flexible hose 
that connects to the spindle motor.


These small pumps don't produce much head pressure (aka "lift").  On the 
larger CNC router, I tried to hide the coolant pump under the enclosure 
and route the coolant lines on top of the enclosure and then down to the 
spindle motor.  That didn't work because the pump couldn't push the 
coolant that high.  I tried a much larger pump trying to power my way 
through the problem and the head pressure was marginal.  It barely 
worked, most of the time, but the pump is cooled by the coolant and the 
coolant temperature rose quickly.  The coolant was cooling the pump more 
than it was cooling the spindle. I finally gave up, went back to the 
smaller pump, and put the coolant tank on top of the CNC router's 
enclosure so it was pumping down to the spindle motor and back up to the 
coolant tank.  The pump only needs enough head pressure to clear the top 
of the coolant tank.  A possible down side is that a coolant leak could 
siphon most of the coolant out of the coolant tank, but I used good hose 
and it hasn't been a problem.  On the small CNC router, I placed the 
coolant tank on a shelf behind the CNC router, and it also pumps down to 
the spindle motor.


I continue to be impressed with the Chinese water cooled spindle 
motors.  The quality is very good.  They brag about the precision 
"German" bearings and they are very smooth and have a very precise feel, 
certainly much better than a Porter Cable or Bosch wood working router, 
even though I suspect that "German" is the deliberately deceptive name 
of a company or town in China.  Still, good is good.


Using four gallons of coolant allows the larger CNC router to run pretty 
much indefinitely now that the garage shop is air conditioned.  When it 
was hot in the summer, the coolant would get a bit warm in the summer 
after five hours of hard use of the spindle motor.  Less coolant means 
it will get hotter sooner.  More coolant is an easier and cheaper 
solution than adding a radiator.


I use the pink RV safe antifreeze as the coolant.  I don't think it will 
corrode metals as readily as water and it won't freeze in your unheated 
shop.  Unlike some automotive coolant, this is used full strength.


I buy liquid LCD thermometer strips on eBay and I'll wrap one around the 
spindle motor and I'll stick another in the electrical panel so I can 
see the temperature at a glance.  These are passive thermometers with no 
electronics.  They're sold for use in pet terrariums for lizards.  
Direct reading with no batteries to replace.  Be sure to get one that 
goes as high as 40C or 104F.  The selection isn't as good as I remember.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/253864383162

I wanted to measure the spindle motor temperature rather than the 
coolant temperature to catch a fault where the pump stops pumping. I 
still need to install a thermal switch on the spindle motor to E-stop 
the CNC router if the spindle motor starts to overheat.  I wired the 
gantry for the thermal switch but never installed it... or I installed 
the switch but never wired it into the E-stop circuit. These projects 
all blur together in my old brain.






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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 23 December 2018 09:10:50 Bruce Layne wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 at 23:50, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > The only thing I could not find with any
> > search terms was a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump
> > in.
>
> I have a Chinese water cooled spindle on two different home built CNC
> routers.  I used a 5 gallon plastic bucket for the coolant tank on
> each.  They were free with a cat litter purchase.  The plastic snap on
> top is hinged.  The back 1/3 stays snapped in place and the front 2/3
> can be hinged open in case I ever need to dump the coolant, add to it,
> etc.  The lid keeps dust and debris out of the closed loop coolant
> system.  A small pump is submerged in the coolant and the power cord
> for the pump and the coolant inlet and outlet hoses are routed through
> the back third of the lid that remains snapped onto the top of the
> bucket.
>
> You don't need a big pump regardless of the size of the spindle
> motor.  I use a small Little Giant pump that's often sold for
> fountains, hydroponics, etc.  I get the best version they make and
> it's still inexpensive.  Good brands include Superior and the upper
> end versions of Little Giant.  Here are a couple of possible examples.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/362400850664
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233055122922
>
> I like the magnetic drive submersible pumps for reliability.  I'd pay
> a little more for a long power cord to get any electrical splices well
> away from the coolant and a pipe thread outlet port so you can easily
> find a fitting to connect to the weird metric sized very flexible hose
> that connects to the spindle motor.
>
> These small pumps don't produce much head pressure (aka "lift").  On
> the larger CNC router, I tried to hide the coolant pump under the
> enclosure and route the coolant lines on top of the enclosure and then
> down to the spindle motor.  That didn't work because the pump couldn't
> push the coolant that high.  I tried a much larger pump trying to
> power my way through the problem and the head pressure was marginal. 
> It barely worked, most of the time, but the pump is cooled by the
> coolant and the coolant temperature rose quickly.  The coolant was
> cooling the pump more than it was cooling the spindle. I finally gave
> up, went back to the smaller pump, and put the coolant tank on top of
> the CNC router's enclosure so it was pumping down to the spindle motor
> and back up to the coolant tank.  The pump only needs enough head
> pressure to clear the top of the coolant tank.  A possible down side
> is that a coolant leak could siphon most of the coolant out of the
> coolant tank, but I used good hose and it hasn't been a problem.  On
> the small CNC router, I placed the coolant tank on a shelf behind the
> CNC router, and it also pumps down to the spindle motor.
>
> I continue to be impressed with the Chinese water cooled spindle
> motors.  The quality is very good.  They brag about the precision
> "German" bearings and they are very smooth and have a very precise
> feel, certainly much better than a Porter Cable or Bosch wood working
> router, even though I suspect that "German" is the deliberately
> deceptive name of a company or town in China.  Still, good is good.
>
Like comparing a Portor-Cable 692 to a Hitachi MV12, The Hitachi is about 
another 50 bucks, and worth every penny. Soft start, dead smooth at any 
speed. Too much gingerbread on its outer though.

> Using four gallons of coolant allows the larger CNC router to run
> pretty much indefinitely now that the garage shop is air conditioned. 
> When it was hot in the summer, the coolant would get a bit warm in the
> summer after five hours of hard use of the spindle motor.

Which is probably 4x longer than it would get run here. This panel with 
all the bells enabled is 66 minutes on the 5 to 10 ipm HF toy. With a 
faster spindle 30 minutes.

> Less coolant means it will get hotter sooner.  More coolant is an 
> easier and cheaper solution than adding a radiator.

And I have one or two of those buckets. The square ones I might be able 
find room for, behind the mill, but will probably have to make a 
table/cabinet for the whole thing as I'd think its too tall to fit under 
the operator console as it only clears the floor about 48". Somebody 
mention 55 kg but I've not been able to find the weight. With free 
shipping, ebay doesn't tell you. 55kg = 121lbs. I'd best put castors on 
the back and and levelors on it, the shop floor sags with nearly half a 
ton in the middle of the floor now. And its been there close to 20 
years. Only treated 4x4's on 24" centers, with 2 layers of 3/4" osb for 
a topping. Been tempted to build a better one, but theres not enough of 
me left to get it done. I'd start with a much better foundation, filled 
with foam and 18" sq pads for support posts down the middle, and maybe 
another 4' each way. Structural Foam panels for walls and roofing. Maybe 
then I could heat and cool it. That 14x24 gara

Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Jon Elson]

On 12/23/2018 08:10 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:




You don't need a big pump regardless of the size of the 
spindle motor.  I use a small Little Giant pump that's 
often sold for fountains, hydroponics, etc.  I get the 
best version they make and it's still inexpensive.  Good 
brands include Superior and the upper end versions of 
Little Giant.  Here are a couple of possible examples.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/362400850664

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233055122922

There are also the blue Little Giant pumps that are not 
fully immersed.
Here's a pic of one style.  You'd have to make sure it 
delivers enough pressure to keep the spindle cooled, but 
this is similar to what I have for flood coolant.

https://www.zoro.com/little-giant-pump-coolant-plastic-cp1-115/i/G2388337/

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 23 December 2018 13:34:16 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/23/2018 08:10 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> > You don't need a big pump regardless of the size of the
> > spindle motor.  I use a small Little Giant pump that's
> > often sold for fountains, hydroponics, etc.  I get the
> > best version they make and it's still inexpensive.  Good
> > brands include Superior and the upper end versions of
> > Little Giant.  Here are a couple of possible examples.
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/362400850664
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/233055122922
>
> There are also the blue Little Giant pumps that are not
> fully immersed.
> Here's a pic of one style.  You'd have to make sure it
> delivers enough pressure to keep the spindle cooled, but
> this is similar to what I have for flood coolant.
> https://www.zoro.com/little-giant-pump-coolant-plastic-cp1-115/i/G2388
>337/
>
I sort of like that, 23 ft of head would let me put the tank below the 
machine, but it appears the motor may not be cooled by the coolant, does 
that have any effect on its life? And its 9" tall.  But that would let 
me mount it below the machine and toward the front of the cabinet, 
making an lcd thermometer stuck to it more easily seen.

Food for thought Jon, thanks.

> Jon
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Jon Elson]

On 12/23/2018 01:26 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

I sort of like that, 23 ft of head would let me put the tank below the
machine, but it appears the motor may not be cooled by the coolant, does
that have any effect on its life? And its 9" tall.  But that would let
me mount it below the machine and toward the front of the cabinet,
making an lcd thermometer stuck to it more easily seen.


On this sort of pump, the motor is AIR cooled, but you have 
to keep water from splashing on the motor.
There are no shaft seals, the vertical motor shaft just 
passes through the top of the pump housing, and the water 
enters from the bottom.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 23 December 2018 16:00:01 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/23/2018 01:26 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I sort of like that, 23 ft of head would let me put the tank below
> > the machine, but it appears the motor may not be cooled by the
> > coolant, does that have any effect on its life? And its 9" tall. 
> > But that would let me mount it below the machine and toward the
> > front of the cabinet, making an lcd thermometer stuck to it more
> > easily seen.
>
> On this sort of pump, the motor is AIR cooled, but you have
> to keep water from splashing on the motor.
> There are no shaft seals,
Ouch
> the vertical motor shaft just 
> passes through the top of the pump housing, and the water
> enters from the bottom.
>
Stable mount required then. Can that pump be dissed so that it could be 
stuck thru the lid of the container & reassembled?
> Jon
>
Thanks Jon.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Jon Elson]

On 12/23/2018 03:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Sunday 23 December 2018 16:00:01 Jon Elson wrote:


On 12/23/2018 01:26 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

I sort of like that, 23 ft of head would let me put the tank below
the machine, but it appears the motor may not be cooled by the
coolant, does that have any effect on its life? And its 9" tall.
But that would let me mount it below the machine and toward the
front of the cabinet, making an lcd thermometer stuck to it more
easily seen.

On this sort of pump, the motor is AIR cooled, but you have
to keep water from splashing on the motor.
There are no shaft seals,

Ouch

the vertical motor shaft just
passes through the top of the pump housing, and the water
enters from the bottom.


Stable mount required then. Can that pump be dissed so that it could be
stuck thru the lid of the container & reassembled?


May not have to do that.  See last picture here :
http://pico-systems.com/CNCconv.html
It is hard to tell, but there's a clear Plexi cover with a 
hole it it for the pump motor to stick out through.
The pump can be disassembled, I do it for cleaning every 
once in a while.


Jon




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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[TJoseph Powderly]

and you can get all the parts for Little Giant Pumps.
( rotors, seals, brushes, motors.)
That makes any investment easier to swallow.
tomp tjtr33
Merry Merry! Happy Happy!

On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 1:28 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 23 December 2018 09:10:50 Bruce Layne wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 at 23:50, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> > > The only thing I could not find with any
> > > search terms was a 1/2 to 1 gallon water tank to bury the water pump
> > > in.
> >
> > I have a Chinese water cooled spindle on two different home built CNC
> > routers.  I used a 5 gallon plastic bucket for the coolant tank on
> > each.  They were free with a cat litter purchase.  The plastic snap on
> > top is hinged.  The back 1/3 stays snapped in place and the front 2/3
> > can be hinged open in case I ever need to dump the coolant, add to it,
> > etc.  The lid keeps dust and debris out of the closed loop coolant
> > system.  A small pump is submerged in the coolant and the power cord
> > for the pump and the coolant inlet and outlet hoses are routed through
> > the back third of the lid that remains snapped onto the top of the
> > bucket.
> >
> > You don't need a big pump regardless of the size of the spindle
> > motor.  I use a small Little Giant pump that's often sold for
> > fountains, hydroponics, etc.  I get the best version they make and
> > it's still inexpensive.  Good brands include Superior and the upper
> > end versions of Little Giant.  Here are a couple of possible examples.
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/362400850664
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/233055122922
> >
> > I like the magnetic drive submersible pumps for reliability.  I'd pay
> > a little more for a long power cord to get any electrical splices well
> > away from the coolant and a pipe thread outlet port so you can easily
> > find a fitting to connect to the weird metric sized very flexible hose
> > that connects to the spindle motor.
> >
> > These small pumps don't produce much head pressure (aka "lift").  On
> > the larger CNC router, I tried to hide the coolant pump under the
> > enclosure and route the coolant lines on top of the enclosure and then
> > down to the spindle motor.  That didn't work because the pump couldn't
> > push the coolant that high.  I tried a much larger pump trying to
> > power my way through the problem and the head pressure was marginal.
> > It barely worked, most of the time, but the pump is cooled by the
> > coolant and the coolant temperature rose quickly.  The coolant was
> > cooling the pump more than it was cooling the spindle. I finally gave
> > up, went back to the smaller pump, and put the coolant tank on top of
> > the CNC router's enclosure so it was pumping down to the spindle motor
> > and back up to the coolant tank.  The pump only needs enough head
> > pressure to clear the top of the coolant tank.  A possible down side
> > is that a coolant leak could siphon most of the coolant out of the
> > coolant tank, but I used good hose and it hasn't been a problem.  On
> > the small CNC router, I placed the coolant tank on a shelf behind the
> > CNC router, and it also pumps down to the spindle motor.
> >
> > I continue to be impressed with the Chinese water cooled spindle
> > motors.  The quality is very good.  They brag about the precision
> > "German" bearings and they are very smooth and have a very precise
> > feel, certainly much better than a Porter Cable or Bosch wood working
> > router, even though I suspect that "German" is the deliberately
> > deceptive name of a company or town in China.  Still, good is good.
> >
> Like comparing a Portor-Cable 692 to a Hitachi MV12, The Hitachi is about
> another 50 bucks, and worth every penny. Soft start, dead smooth at any
> speed. Too much gingerbread on its outer though.
>
> > Using four gallons of coolant allows the larger CNC router to run
> > pretty much indefinitely now that the garage shop is air conditioned.
> > When it was hot in the summer, the coolant would get a bit warm in the
> > summer after five hours of hard use of the spindle motor.
>
> Which is probably 4x longer than it would get run here. This panel with
> all the bells enabled is 66 minutes on the 5 to 10 ipm HF toy. With a
> faster spindle 30 minutes.
>
> > Less coolant means it will get hotter sooner.  More coolant is an
> > easier and cheaper solution than adding a radiator.
>
> And I have one or two of those buckets. The square ones I might be able
> find room for, behind the mill, but will probably have to make a
> table/cabinet for the whole thing as I'd think its too tall to fit under
> the operator console as it only clears the floor about 48". Somebody
> mention 55 kg but I've not been able to find the weight. With free
> shipping, ebay doesn't tell you. 55kg = 121lbs. I'd best put castors on
> the back and and levelors on it, the shop floor sags with nearly half a
> ton in the middle of the floor now. And its been there close to 20
> years. Only treated 4x4's on 24" ce

Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 23 December 2018 21:39:07 TJoseph Powderly wrote:

> and you can get all the parts for Little Giant Pumps.
> ( rotors, seals, brushes, motors.)
> That makes any investment easier to swallow.
> tomp tjtr33
> Merry Merry! Happy Happy!
>
Hey Tomp, been too quiet out your way, hope you and the missus are well.

And you're right about Little Giant, they aren't going away tomorrow. So 
when the pump it comes with upchucks, "you never get fired for buying 
IBM." :)

Merry Christmas to you folks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] sim still broken

[Kirk Wallace]

On 12/22/18 5:02 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 12/22/2018 05:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
The only thing I could not find with any search terms was a 1/2 to 1 
gallon water tank to bury the water pump in.
There are things called "condensate drain pumps" that you put near a 


In case it hasn't been mentioned, ShurFlo makes RV water pumps which 
have higher operating pressure. I don't know what coolant would do to 
the diaphragm, but there are options for the diaphragm material. 
Inexpensive AC or DC units can be found on eBay if you wait for a good deal.



https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=shurflo
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/c-77-shurflo-pumps.aspx


I have a few of these for my drinking water system and water tank. The 
pressure switch does work but is of a poor design and material. Instead, 
I use Square D Pumptrol switches:



https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=pumptrol


Beware of the models that have the "pump saver" lever feature. A float 
switch might be better for pump saving.


I also avoid using tapered pipe fittings when I can. NPT fittings tend 
to cross thread on these pump housings even on a good day, and they 
don't seal well at all. Teflon pipe tape is useless, so I use Rectorseal 
yellow (let dry before mating, seems better). The matching Shurflo 
fittings (look like reverse AN flare fitting) seal well, are easy to 
use/reuse and service.


Just in my humble opinion.

--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/


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