Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-16 Thread Jon Elson 
Kent A. Reed wrote:
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if someone could create a summary section that would 
> catch the eye of folks like Roger. It might highlight the type of 
> machine, its use (especially in production), and numbers like this one 
> you just posted. With a little thought, I think such a page could do a 
> lot to market LinuxCNC.
>   
I now see our links page is back to working, but in "EMC usage"
there are a bunch of links that are "dead", for instance # 2, 3 and 4.

Great thanks to whoever got all these pages back up!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-16 Thread Kent A. Reed 
On 3/16/2012 9:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Kent A. Reed wrote:
>> Wouldn't it be nice if someone could create a summary section that would
>> catch the eye of folks like Roger. It might highlight the type of
>> machine, its use (especially in production), and numbers like this one
>> you just posted. With a little thought, I think such a page could do a
>> lot to market LinuxCNC.
>>
> I now see our links page is back to working, but in "EMC usage"
> there are a bunch of links that are "dead", for instance # 2, 3 and 4.
>
> Great thanks to whoever got all these pages back up!
>
> Jon
>
>
Errm, ok, but "EMC [sic] usage" buries information in the website even 
more effectively than the "Case Studies" page I mentioned does in the wiki.

I know I'm just  a researcher/tinker/hacker, and an old fart to boot, 
but it would seem to me elementary marketing to put our best claims 
front and center and not relegate them to tertiary links.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Regards,
Kent




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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-16 Thread Stuart Stevenson 
Gentlemen,
  Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC software
is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time - even
the advice - even the help.
  Just asking.
thanks
Stuart

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 8:23 PM, Kent A. Reed  wrote:

> On 3/16/2012 9:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> > Kent A. Reed wrote:
> >> Wouldn't it be nice if someone could create a summary section that would
> >> catch the eye of folks like Roger. It might highlight the type of
> >> machine, its use (especially in production), and numbers like this one
> >> you just posted. With a little thought, I think such a page could do a
> >> lot to market LinuxCNC.
> >>
> > I now see our links page is back to working, but in "EMC usage"
> > there are a bunch of links that are "dead", for instance # 2, 3 and 4.
> >
> > Great thanks to whoever got all these pages back up!
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> Errm, ok, but "EMC [sic] usage" buries information in the website even
> more effectively than the "Case Studies" page I mentioned does in the wiki.
>
> I know I'm just  a researcher/tinker/hacker, and an old fart to boot,
> but it would seem to me elementary marketing to put our best claims
> front and center and not relegate them to tertiary links.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth.
>
> Regards,
> Kent
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-16 Thread Jack Coats 
'Selling free software' is hard.

What a vendor 'sells' isn't open or free software.  It is services. It
is hardware.  It is integration.  It is training.  It is support.
Basically, it is time.

It is NOT software.  It can be 'glue' software they write, or 'customization'.

I worked for a company that sold VOIP PBX's based on Asterisk.  That
is what we did.  We did list the software we installed on the 'sales
receipt' as $0.00.  We also listed installation/customization/etc as
$$ amounts.

Lots of potential customers baulked.  They just 'didn't get it'.
Those that didn't were happy.

EMC2 / LinuxCNC can be 'sold' the same way.

...

>From my experience, customers want to purchase 'solutions' to their
problems.  Yes they want it 'cheap' (and folks looking for open source
software are typically 'cheap' oriented).

Customers that are cost sensitive and just want their 'solution' to
work, don't care if it is open or closed source.

If more customers understood, open source software can give them more
opportunities to get support from both paid consultants and the open
source community.  But normally they want to 'call someone' when 'they
just want it fixed'.  The open source community seems to need to
develop a relationship with someone to be able to effectively provide
support, so folks that just call when things are 'already broke' and
they are in a pinch often feel 'ignored'.  I can understand that
feeling, but I also understand the OS community perspective.

Enough pontificating.  Time for bed.

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-16 Thread Kent A. Reed 
On 3/16/2012 10:31 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC software
> is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time - even
> the advice - even the help.
>Just asking.
> thanks
> Stuart
>
Stuart:

When I was a neophyte researcher just starting out at Argonne National 
Labs (about the same time Jimmy Carter was sworn into office), my group 
leader sent me to a short course in marketing. Marketing is a foreign 
concept to most new graduates. They think, as I did at the time, the 
degrees we won are proof of our worth, which is utter nonsense.* Whether 
in competition for dollars or eyeballs, one has to market oneself and my 
group leader wanted to be sure I understood that. In theory, good ideas 
win out. In practice, they need help.

I don't think I'm suggesting anything radical, just a rethinking and 
reorganization of some information so it's obvious why someone would 
choose LinuxCNC, whether for home or work. Wherever the information ends 
up, I'd feature its presence prominently on the home page of the website 
and the home page of the wiki. Pictures never hurt.

Like I said, it's just my 2 cents worth.

Regards,
Kent

*a friend once declared that

-a bachelor's degree proves you went to class
-a master's degree proves you found the library
-a doctoral degree proves you started and finished a project once


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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-16 Thread Jack Coats 
I worked for a company where we did 'market open software'.

We sold Asterisk based VOIP telephone PBX systems.

They were 'white box' hardware (generic, nothing special) systems,
with Linux, Asterisk, and other support software all installed,
integrated, configured for the customers.

There was NOTHING we did a customer could not have done for
themselves.  What we were selling was our expertise, time, and our
'shortcut' to solutions.  They did purchase some hardware over and
above our time as well.

What companies seem to want to purchase is not 'software' and
'hardware'.  They want solutions.

If you can sell a solution that they don't have to do anything to get
it to work, it can be 'sold' as a high value proposition to the
customer who needs the solution to solve their problem.

...

It took me some time to realize we were not selling product ... we
were selling solutions.

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Jan de Kruyf 
clap, clap, clap . .  . . . .

I second the motion.

If and when I have some free time I might knock up a quick flyer based on
these notions.
Obviously for others to add on to.

We will need some real clean shiny pictures though. Close-ups work very
well.
Are there volunteers?

j.


On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Jack Coats  wrote:

> I worked for a company where we did 'market open software'.
>
> We sold Asterisk based VOIP telephone PBX systems.
>
> They were 'white box' hardware (generic, nothing special) systems,
> with Linux, Asterisk, and other support software all installed,
> integrated, configured for the customers.
>
> There was NOTHING we did a customer could not have done for
> themselves.  What we were selling was our expertise, time, and our
> 'shortcut' to solutions.  They did purchase some hardware over and
> above our time as well.
>
> What companies seem to want to purchase is not 'software' and
> 'hardware'.  They want solutions.
>
> If you can sell a solution that they don't have to do anything to get
> it to work, it can be 'sold' as a high value proposition to the
> customer who needs the solution to solve their problem.
>
> ...
>
> It took me some time to realize we were not selling product ... we
> were selling solutions.
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Viesturs Lācis 
2012/3/17 Jack Coats :
>
> What companies seem to want to purchase is not 'software' and
> 'hardware'.  They want solutions.

Yes, exactly!
Unfortunately my clients tend to ask, what kind of solution they are
paying for and what am I going to implement and then it would be nice
to show them a page, where at least some of the best LinuxCNC examples
are mentioned so that they can be assured that my solution (meaning
LinuxCNC) can be trusted.

And LinuxCNC is not attractive only to cost-sensitive customers. There
are many more selling points, including, but not limited to:
1) as mentioned before - cost of software - NONE;
2) since LinuxCNC is about being "smart controller on dumb hardware",
it works on simple hardware (for example, it does not require closing
feedback loop in servo controller etc), which also is more
cost-effective than compared to other alternatives (can You get a 2kW
AC servo drive for 240$ (meaning 8i20) for any other CNC controller?);
3) customer is not locked in with a particular vendor/service provider
- any other integrator can take over maintenance of my machines (I am
trying to comment the contents of HAL files mainly for myself to
understand them also few years later, when customer might ask to
change something - add new functions etc, but that would help any
other person to understand, what is going on there);
4) LinuxCNC is so flexible, that it can control all the possible CNC
machines in a [typical] workshop, thus having all the machines the
same controls (probably with slightly different screens) is easier for
operators and there is less chance for a mistake, and preparing the
code also is easier - the same g-code commands mean the same on all
machines, no need for fancy post-processor per each machine, even if
it is needed, then one for all the machines;
5) and it is so advanced that it can easily control all kinds of
robots and other "nasty" machines with complicated kinematics and
require no CAM postprocessor at all;

If I (well, my company) ever grow large enough, I would have my own
examples to show potential customers, but now some external page would
be helpful.

I completely agree with Kent - such a page would help "marketing"
LinuxCNC. In a non-profit manner, where marketing is supposed to
increase number of users (and hopefully active developers). That is
traditional thinking that marketing function is only generate revenue.
I would say that marketing is about drawing attention and increasing
awareness of potential customers.


2012/3/17 Jan de Kruyf :
>
> We will need some real clean shiny pictures though. Close-ups work very
> well.
> Are there volunteers?

I would like add that welding robot I built. I have some videos with
it in action (so links to Youtube could be pasted), but I have no
access to it to make pictures.

Viesturs

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread charles green 
if possible, i would like a complete list of cost insensitive customers.


--- On Sat, 3/17/12, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:

> From: Viesturs Lācis 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and 
> other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 1:27 AM
> 2012/3/17 Jack Coats :
> >
> > What companies seem to want to purchase is not
> 'software' and
> > 'hardware'.  They want solutions.
> 
> Yes, exactly!
> Unfortunately my clients tend to ask, what kind of solution
> they are
> paying for and what am I going to implement and then it
> would be nice
> to show them a page, where at least some of the best
> LinuxCNC examples
> are mentioned so that they can be assured that my solution
> (meaning
> LinuxCNC) can be trusted.
> 
> And LinuxCNC is not attractive only to cost-sensitive
> customers. There
> are many more selling points, including, but not limited
> to:
> 1) as mentioned before - cost of software - NONE;
> 2) since LinuxCNC is about being "smart controller on dumb
> hardware",
> it works on simple hardware (for example, it does not
> require closing
> feedback loop in servo controller etc), which also is more
> cost-effective than compared to other alternatives (can You
> get a 2kW
> AC servo drive for 240$ (meaning 8i20) for any other CNC
> controller?);
> 3) customer is not locked in with a particular
> vendor/service provider
> - any other integrator can take over maintenance of my
> machines (I am
> trying to comment the contents of HAL files mainly for
> myself to
> understand them also few years later, when customer might
> ask to
> change something - add new functions etc, but that would
> help any
> other person to understand, what is going on there);
> 4) LinuxCNC is so flexible, that it can control all the
> possible CNC
> machines in a [typical] workshop, thus having all the
> machines the
> same controls (probably with slightly different screens) is
> easier for
> operators and there is less chance for a mistake, and
> preparing the
> code also is easier - the same g-code commands mean the same
> on all
> machines, no need for fancy post-processor per each machine,
> even if
> it is needed, then one for all the machines;
> 5) and it is so advanced that it can easily control all
> kinds of
> robots and other "nasty" machines with complicated
> kinematics and
> require no CAM postprocessor at all;
> 
> If I (well, my company) ever grow large enough, I would have
> my own
> examples to show potential customers, but now some external
> page would
> be helpful.
> 
> I completely agree with Kent - such a page would help
> "marketing"
> LinuxCNC. In a non-profit manner, where marketing is
> supposed to
> increase number of users (and hopefully active developers).
> That is
> traditional thinking that marketing function is only
> generate revenue.
> I would say that marketing is about drawing attention and
> increasing
> awareness of potential customers.
> 
> 
> 2012/3/17 Jan de Kruyf :
> >
> > We will need some real clean shiny pictures though.
> Close-ups work very
> > well.
> > Are there volunteers?
> 
> I would like add that welding robot I built. I have some
> videos with
> it in action (so links to Youtube could be pasted), but I
> have no
> access to it to make pictures.
> 
> Viesturs
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Viesturs Lācis 
2012/3/17 charles green :
> if possible, i would like a complete list of cost insensitive customers.

:)))

What I meant is the top priority of the customer - if cost is the
one and only criterion or maybe some other things are considered
equally or even more important...

LinuxCNC is best fit not only for that first type.

Viesturs

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Mark Wendt (Contractor) 
On 3/16/2012 10:31 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC software
> is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time - even
> the advice - even the help.
>Just asking.
> thanks
> Stuart
>
Stuart,

Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if 
free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned, 
Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.  
That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks 
looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and 
effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We 
need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support 
works, and how it all benefits them.

Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and 
become a Mach user.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Stuart Stevenson 
Gentlemen,

On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) <
mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:

> On 3/16/2012 10:31 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC
> software
> > is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time - even
> > the advice - even the help.
> >Just asking.
> > thanks
> > Stuart
> >
> Stuart,
>
> Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if
> free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned,
> Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.
> That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks
> looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and
> effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We
> need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support
> works, and how it all benefits them.
>
In my opinion :
Marketing LinuxCNC for the purpose of giving it away is a waste of time and
resources.
The time and resources would be better spent improving and expanding
LinuxCNC.
Donating time and resources to further the development of LinuxCNC is one
way of improving the project (notice is said project not product).
Helping someone learn is a very important part of improving and expanding
LinuxCNC.
Organizing an event, producing a video or brochure to help educate people
about LinuxCNC (in my case for my own education) is a good way of
contributing.


> Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
> become a Mach user.
>
Mach has a valid place in the world. Many of the Mach users have no
interest in software/machine control development. Those users want a
'solution' with committed support to get a process running. Mach is perfect
for that. LinuxCNC is not perfect for that.

Helping someone understand LinuxCNC is different than marketing it to them.
A valid consultation about the comparative benefits of Mach or LinuxCNC or
another system would sometimes result in telling a prospective user that
LinuxCNC is NOT the best choice to answer their need. A paid consultant
would be required to have knowledge of Mach, LinuxCNC and other systems to
be able to properly advise the correct 'solution'.
I don't have Mach on any machines. I cannot tell you if Mach is better for
any particular process or not. I do have (or have had/used/ran) Fanuc,
Siemens, Haas, Fadal, Hurco, Moog, Heidenhain, Allen-Bradley, Mazak and
probably I have missed one or two. Each of these is a valid solution and
maybe the best solution to a particular need.

LinuxCNC is unique in that it is more capable than any of the afore
mentioned control systems and is a TRUE open source machine control
project. This means it is limited only by the grey matter between your
ears. For me, THIS is the primary attribute that is the tipping point and
for me, this is the LIMITING factor of LinuxCNC. :)

I hope my diatribe is helpful.
thanks
Stuart


> Mark
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread gene heskett 
On Saturday, March 17, 2012 09:05:00 AM Mark Wendt (Contractor) did opine:

> On 3/16/2012 10:31 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> > 
> >Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC
> >software
> > 
> > is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time -
> > even the advice - even the help.
> > 
> >Just asking.
> > 
> > thanks
> > Stuart
> 
> Stuart,
> 
> Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if
> free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned,
> Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.
> That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks
> looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and
> effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We
> need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support
> works, and how it all benefits them.
> 
> Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
> become a Mach user.
> 
> Mark

While I tend to agree that we need to polish up our sales pitch and 
material, one of the things I think we need to emphasize is the level of 
support, I think it is fantastic compared to anything I've ever seen 
before, where software packages that cost $2500/month, often have bugs that 
don't get fixed till the next annual, send lots more money, update.  That 
is the usual situation at a tv station, where the software that handles 
"Traffic", is the heart and soul of the business model.

LinuxCNC with its random releases that to my knowledge have only once or 
twice not been 100% backwards compatible, has amazed me.  But I guess I'm 
getting used to the Linux way of doing things.

Take amanda, the backup program, where I have been playing the canary in 
the coal mine for the bleeding edge development versions for nearly 10 
years & running it for 14.  Only one, non-compatible update has ever taken 
place and that was at least a decade ago.  It gets broken by support 
library changes regularly, most recently by a glib-utils update, but was 
fixed in 3 days.  That rapidity of fixing things we have no control over 
means we get broken more often than an M$ product is, but we still fix it 
10x faster too.

IMO, this rapid response to problems, should be quite near the top of the 
list of advantages to choosing LinuxCNC.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Scott Hasse 
As a relative LinuxCNC newbie, I can say that a more clear presentation of
the capabilities of the system would have made it less daunting to choose
LinuxCNC.  As a hobby CNC user, I had been exposed to probably 20
half-baked open source CAM tools/packages and been impressed with a total
of zero.  As a hacker space, we were philosophically committed to open
source and so pursued LinuxCNC, but given that previous CAM experience I
thought it was going to be a "down the rabbit hole" experience.

I was greatly pleased to find out not only that LinuxCNC is extremely
mature and stable, but that the architecture is well-thought-out and well
executed, there are configuration generators for the most common use cases,
a choice of clean functional extensible GUIs, and so many other "batteries
included" that I absolutely was not expecting.  Not to mention what others
have said with respect to the helpfulness and openness of this support
community.

I'm now through two conversions and could not be more pleased:

http://code.google.com/p/sector67-sandbox/wiki/3300MillConversion
http://code.google.com/p/sector67-sandbox/wiki/ProjectSheetCake

and would be willing to pitch in the documentation I have and additional
videos, etc. to help more accurately represent the excellent state of this
software and community to prospective users.

My two cents,

Scott

On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 8:34 AM, gene heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday, March 17, 2012 09:05:00 AM Mark Wendt (Contractor) did opine:
>
> > On 3/16/2012 10:31 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > > Gentlemen,
> > >
> > >Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC
> > >software
> > >
> > > is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time -
> > > even the advice - even the help.
> > >
> > >Just asking.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > Stuart
> >
> > Stuart,
> >
> > Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if
> > free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned,
> > Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.
> > That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks
> > looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and
> > effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We
> > need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support
> > works, and how it all benefits them.
> >
> > Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
> > become a Mach user.
> >
> > Mark
>
> While I tend to agree that we need to polish up our sales pitch and
> material, one of the things I think we need to emphasize is the level of
> support, I think it is fantastic compared to anything I've ever seen
> before, where software packages that cost $2500/month, often have bugs that
> don't get fixed till the next annual, send lots more money, update.  That
> is the usual situation at a tv station, where the software that handles
> "Traffic", is the heart and soul of the business model.
>
> LinuxCNC with its random releases that to my knowledge have only once or
> twice not been 100% backwards compatible, has amazed me.  But I guess I'm
> getting used to the Linux way of doing things.
>
> Take amanda, the backup program, where I have been playing the canary in
> the coal mine for the bleeding edge development versions for nearly 10
> years & running it for 14.  Only one, non-compatible update has ever taken
> place and that was at least a decade ago.  It gets broken by support
> library changes regularly, most recently by a glib-utils update, but was
> fixed in 3 days.  That rapidity of fixing things we have no control over
> means we get broken more often than an M$ product is, but we still fix it
> 10x faster too.
>
> IMO, this rapid response to problems, should be quite near the top of the
> list of advantages to choosing LinuxCNC.
>
> Cheers, Gene
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> My web page: 
> Credit ... is the only enduring testimonial to man's confidence in man.
>-- James Blish
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Mark Wendt (Contractor) 
On 3/17/2012 9:34 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> Stuart,
>>
>> Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if
>> free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned,
>> Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.
>> That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks
>> looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and
>> effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We
>> need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support
>> works, and how it all benefits them.
>>
>> Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
>> become a Mach user.
>>
>> Mark
>>  
> While I tend to agree that we need to polish up our sales pitch and
> material, one of the things I think we need to emphasize is the level of
> support, I think it is fantastic compared to anything I've ever seen
> before, where software packages that cost $2500/month, often have bugs that
> don't get fixed till the next annual, send lots more money, update.  That
> is the usual situation at a tv station, where the software that handles
> "Traffic", is the heart and soul of the business model.
>
> LinuxCNC with its random releases that to my knowledge have only once or
> twice not been 100% backwards compatible, has amazed me.  But I guess I'm
> getting used to the Linux way of doing things.
>
> Take amanda, the backup program, where I have been playing the canary in
> the coal mine for the bleeding edge development versions for nearly 10
> years&  running it for 14.  Only one, non-compatible update has ever taken
> place and that was at least a decade ago.  It gets broken by support
> library changes regularly, most recently by a glib-utils update, but was
> fixed in 3 days.  That rapidity of fixing things we have no control over
> means we get broken more often than an M$ product is, but we still fix it
> 10x faster too.
>
> IMO, this rapid response to problems, should be quite near the top of the
> list of advantages to choosing LinuxCNC.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>

Gene,

Support is one of the things I mentioned, and IMO, probably one of our 
more important things to market.  We do have a bunch of different 
channels available for support, from this mailing list, to the IRC, to 
our own forum and to the LinuxCNC forum on CNCzone.  Without that 
support, I'd never have gotten my machine up and running.

Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Mark Wendt (Contractor) 
On 3/17/2012 9:36 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
>>>
>> Stuart,
>>
>> Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if
>> free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned,
>> Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.
>> That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks
>> looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and
>> effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We
>> need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support
>> works, and how it all benefits them.
>>
>>  
> In my opinion :
> Marketing LinuxCNC for the purpose of giving it away is a waste of time and
> resources.
> The time and resources would be better spent improving and expanding
> LinuxCNC.
> Donating time and resources to further the development of LinuxCNC is one
> way of improving the project (notice is said project not product).
> Helping someone learn is a very important part of improving and expanding
> LinuxCNC.
> Organizing an event, producing a video or brochure to help educate people
> about LinuxCNC (in my case for my own education) is a good way of
> contributing.
>
Stuart,

Note, "Giving it away" was not the crux of my argument for marketing 
LinuxCNC to new users, though it's all part and parcel of LinuxCNC.  In 
the context of "Free" I was talking about our marketing, on the website 
and on the forums.  All your ideas are great, and should be added to our 
marketing plan, but there's no need to limit ourselves to just those.  
While great in many respects, they are somewhat limiting to those events 
at hand, whereas offering a "marketing" page with the pictures, words 
and videos of the machines that have been built and are in use is a tool 
that can, and probably will see world-wide views.
>
>
>> Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
>> become a Mach user.
>>
>>  
> Mach has a valid place in the world. Many of the Mach users have no
> interest in software/machine control development. Those users want a
> 'solution' with committed support to get a process running. Mach is perfect
> for that. LinuxCNC is not perfect for that.
>
I wasn't knocking Mach, only pointing out that if we want our usage to 
grow, and don't do anything about it to help bring in new users to the 
fold, they are going to go to software like Mach which is a lot more 
well known due to advertising.
> Helping someone understand LinuxCNC is different than marketing it to them.
> A valid consultation about the comparative benefits of Mach or LinuxCNC or
> another system would sometimes result in telling a prospective user that
> LinuxCNC is NOT the best choice to answer their need. A paid consultant
> would be required to have knowledge of Mach, LinuxCNC and other systems to
> be able to properly advise the correct 'solution'.
> I don't have Mach on any machines. I cannot tell you if Mach is better for
> any particular process or not. I do have (or have had/used/ran) Fanuc,
> Siemens, Haas, Fadal, Hurco, Moog, Heidenhain, Allen-Bradley, Mazak and
> probably I have missed one or two. Each of these is a valid solution and
> maybe the best solution to a particular need.
>
Not true.  Marketing a solution is all about getting someone to 
understand what the product can do for them.  You're mixing apples and 
oranges.  Marketing is not consultation.  Marketing is presenting your 
"product" the best way, and hopefully better than the other guy to bring 
in new customers.
> LinuxCNC is unique in that it is more capable than any of the afore
> mentioned control systems and is a TRUE open source machine control
> project. This means it is limited only by the grey matter between your
> ears. For me, THIS is the primary attribute that is the tipping point and
> for me, this is the LIMITING factor of LinuxCNC. :)
>
Absolutely!  Now, how do we market the best software on the planet to 
new users, and even old users tied to another product?
> I hope my diatribe is helpful.
>

You betcha!
> thanks
> Stuart
>
Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Greg Bernard 
Scott-
Those are really excellent write-ups! I agree with you about the newbie first 
impressions. I very nearly went with Mach when I built my first machine 2 years 
ago. It wasn't until I visited Jon Elson that I saw first hand what a capable 
piece of software LinuxCNC really is that I made my decision. What I observed 
was that the documentation manuals were very good if a bit challenging for a 
newbie in places. The wiki entries are uneven (to be expected, I suppose) and 
could often use some clarification. For me, at least, thorough case sudies like 
Scott's can be very useful. 

I'm at the point now that I can probably help out in improving the wiki for new 
users and intend to do so soon. Any suggestions
on how to proceed would be welcome.

Greg




>
> From: Scott Hasse 
>To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
>Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:19 AM
>Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and 
>other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie
> 
>As a relative LinuxCNC newbie, I can say that a more clear presentation of
>the capabilities of the system would have made it less daunting to choose
>LinuxCNC.  As a hobby CNC user, I had been exposed to probably 20
>half-baked open source CAM tools/packages and been impressed with a total
>of zero.  As a hacker space, we were philosophically committed to open
>source and so pursued LinuxCNC, but given that previous CAM experience I
>thought it was going to be a "down the rabbit hole" experience.
>
>I was greatly pleased to find out not only that LinuxCNC is extremely
>mature and stable, but that the architecture is well-thought-out and well
>executed, there are configuration generators for the most common use cases,
>a choice of clean functional extensible GUIs, and so many other "batteries
>included" that I absolutely was not expecting.  Not to mention what others
>have said with respect to the helpfulness and openness of this support
>community.
>
>I'm now through two conversions and could not be more pleased:
>
>http://code.google.com/p/sector67-sandbox/wiki/3300MillConversion
>http://code.google.com/p/sector67-sandbox/wiki/ProjectSheetCake
>
>and would be willing to pitch in the documentation I have and additional
>videos, etc. to help more accurately represent the excellent state of this
>software and community to prospective users.
>
>My two cents,
>
>Scott
>
>On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 8:34 AM, gene heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, March 17, 2012 09:05:00 AM Mark Wendt (Contractor) did opine:
>>
>> > On 3/16/2012 10:31 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
>> > > Gentlemen,
>> > >
>> > >    Just how do you 'market' a free item/product? The free LinuxCNC
>> > >    software
>> > >
>> > > is not even a loss leader. The whole thing is free - all the time -
>> > > even the advice - even the help.
>> > >
>> > >    Just asking.
>> > >
>> > > thanks
>> > > Stuart
>> >
>> > Stuart,
>> >
>> > Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even if
>> > free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent mentioned,
>> > Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free" advertising.
>> > That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold letters for folks
>> > looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's worth their time and
>> > effort to install the software, and become part of our user base.  We
>> > need to show them what the software can do for them, how our support
>> > works, and how it all benefits them.
>> >
>> > Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
>> > become a Mach user.
>> >
>> > Mark
>>
>> While I tend to agree that we need to polish up our sales pitch and
>> material, one of the things I think we need to emphasize is the level of
>> support, I think it is fantastic compared to anything I've ever seen
>> before, where software packages that cost $2500/month, often have bugs that
>> don't get fixed till the next annual, send lots more money, update.  That
>> is the usual situation at a tv station, where the software that handles
>> "Traffic", is the heart and soul of the business model.
>>
>> LinuxCNC with its random releases that to my knowledge have only once or
>> twice not been 100% backwards compatible, has amazed me.  But I guess I'm
>> getting used to the Linux way of doing things.
>>
>> Take amanda, the backup program,

Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread gene heskett 
On Saturday, March 17, 2012 04:01:38 PM Mark Wendt (Contractor) did opine:

> On 3/17/2012 9:34 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> Stuart,
> >> 
> >> Marketing is marketing, whether for profit or for non-profit.  Even
> >> if free, you still want to be able to "give" it away.  Like Kent
> >> mentioned, Case Studies and perhaps Testimonials are our "Free"
> >> advertising. That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in big, bold
> >> letters for folks looking at our stuff and wondering whether it's
> >> worth their time and effort to install the software, and become part
> >> of our user base.  We need to show them what the software can do for
> >> them, how our support works, and how it all benefits them.
> >> 
> >> Otherwise, if they see no benefit, they'll say the hell with it and
> >> become a Mach user.
> >> 
> >> Mark
> > 
> > While I tend to agree that we need to polish up our sales pitch and
> > material, one of the things I think we need to emphasize is the level
> > of support, I think it is fantastic compared to anything I've ever
> > seen before, where software packages that cost $2500/month, often
> > have bugs that don't get fixed till the next annual, send lots more
> > money, update.  That is the usual situation at a tv station, where
> > the software that handles "Traffic", is the heart and soul of the
> > business model.
> > 
> > LinuxCNC with its random releases that to my knowledge have only once
> > or twice not been 100% backwards compatible, has amazed me.  But I
> > guess I'm getting used to the Linux way of doing things.
> > 
> > Take amanda, the backup program, where I have been playing the canary
> > in the coal mine for the bleeding edge development versions for
> > nearly 10 years&  running it for 14.  Only one, non-compatible update
> > has ever taken place and that was at least a decade ago.  It gets
> > broken by support library changes regularly, most recently by a
> > glib-utils update, but was fixed in 3 days.  That rapidity of fixing
> > things we have no control over means we get broken more often than an
> > M$ product is, but we still fix it 10x faster too.
> > 
> > IMO, this rapid response to problems, should be quite near the top of
> > the list of advantages to choosing LinuxCNC.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> Gene,
> 
> Support is one of the things I mentioned, and IMO, probably one of our
> more important things to market.  We do have a bunch of different
> channels available for support, from this mailing list, to the IRC, to
> our own forum and to the LinuxCNC forum on CNCzone.  Without that
> support, I'd never have gotten my machine up and running.
> 
> Mark
> 
And I have to tip my hat in the same direction Mark. :)

There are quite a goodly number of folks on this list and/or IRC, that I 
owe a hand cooler to,  and if I ever get under the same roof, I'll see to 
it no one has a smoking hand.  In fact, my GMC fired up an hour ago for the 
first time in several months, with a fresh engine in it, so hitting NAMES 
might not be out of the question if they hold one this summer.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Once it hits the fan, the only rational choice is to sweep it up, package 
it,
and sell it as fertilizer.

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-17 Thread Jon Elson 
gene heskett wrote:
> There are quite a goodly number of folks on this list and/or IRC, that I 
> owe a hand cooler to,  and if I ever get under the same roof, I'll see to 
> it no one has a smoking hand.  In fact, my GMC fired up an hour ago for the 
> first time in several months, with a fresh engine in it, so hitting NAMES 
> might not be out of the question if they hold one this summer.
>   
NAMES is dead, as planned by the controlling members of the society.
They wanted it to be a REAL small get-together for hard-core model
builders.  They moved back to the Yack arena as even the Southgate
community center was way too big for them.

There will be a CNC Workshop hosted by Digital Machinist at
the Washtenaw Community College in Ann Arbor June 21 to 23.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Marketing LinuxCNC, was Re: Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie

2012-03-18 Thread Mark Wendt (Contractor) 
On 3/17/2012 4:06 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>> Gene,
>>
>> Support is one of the things I mentioned, and IMO, probably one of our
>> more important things to market.  We do have a bunch of different
>> channels available for support, from this mailing list, to the IRC, to
>> our own forum and to the LinuxCNC forum on CNCzone.  Without that
>> support, I'd never have gotten my machine up and running.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>  
> And I have to tip my hat in the same direction Mark. :)
>
> There are quite a goodly number of folks on this list and/or IRC, that I
> owe a hand cooler to,  and if I ever get under the same roof, I'll see to
> it no one has a smoking hand.  In fact, my GMC fired up an hour ago for the
> first time in several months, with a fresh engine in it, so hitting NAMES
> might not be out of the question if they hold one this summer.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>
I'd love to get to a gathering of folks.  Most of the ones that go on, 
go on during weekends where I'm at other gatherings, or their a wee bit 
far away.  I'd love to see Stuart's machine in action, and I'd probably 
leave puddles of drool in Sam's shop.  I'd bring the beers too.  And 
maybe some cigars, and single malt, and...  ;-)

Mark


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