subject:"\[EVDL\] Zero self\-discharge"

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-28 Thread David Nelson via EV

Very short on important details like what chemistry cell did they use.
If LiFePO4 they were doomed when they used 4.0V and 4.2V as their
charge voltages. If some other chemistry then maybe not. They also
don't show any reversible capacity loss data. Why? A very poorly done
paper without enough information to know if the results are even worth
anything.


On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
 wrote:
> David,
>
> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a 
> Li-Ion cell
> that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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> prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>>
>> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>>
>> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
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>
>
> --
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> http://evalbum.com/1328
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV

Sounds possible.  My thoughts:

Unfortunately, voltage is not a great way to evaluate cells, but that
sounds good FWIW.  Is your meter really reliable, and accurate to measure
±0.001 volts? under conditions of different temperature?  Is the accuracy
reall somewhat less good than ±0.001V?   Recently calibrated?  It is such a
small amount that noise may be what you have read.  The first time you read
them was that 3.3V?  Or 3.300V?  Different meters used?  To me 3.3V
possibly means ±0.1V.

One of the  last things Dahn says in his lecture is essentially - want your
cells to last a long time?  Put them in the refrigerator very chance you
get. Hard to do h an EV pack.  Temperature is the enemy, and especially
with LFP.  Where were they stored for 16 months?  It really becomes and
important question when people are claiming a cell lasted or degraded of
such and such a period of time.  Also the SOC% which is hard to know
without a full cycle and Ah measurement.  That is really the topic change
in amount of stored charge, not voltage changes.  LFP particularly sees a
lot of change in charge for little change in voltage.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

> Here's my observation I received my cells and new the measured 3.3 volts.
> 16 months later when I put then in the vehicle they measured 3.298 and
> 3.297.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any
> longer since it appears beaten to death:
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul and Michael,
> >
> > Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to
> verify if they show self-discharge or not?
> >
> > Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well
> defined (so it must be an issue) but it appears
> >
> > that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and
> not just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)
> >
> > is convinced that they do show self-discharge.
> >
> > To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be
> no difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> >
> > Chief Scientist
> >
> > Proxim Wireless
> >
> >
> >
> > office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> >
> > XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info <
> http://www.cvandewater.info>
> >
> > www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> > To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> >
> >
> >
> > I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition.
> >
> >
> >
> > I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non
> existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I
> have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self
> discharge referring to capacity loss.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is Dr. Popov's website:
> >
> >
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> > <
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them
> for your edification below.
> >
> > I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and
> capacity loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is
> concerned with.
> >
> >
> >
> > *snip*
> >
> > -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-25 Thread Paul Dove via EV

Here's my observation I received my cells and new the measured 3.3 volts. 16 
months later when I put then in the vehicle they measured 3.298 and 3.297.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer 
> since it appears beaten to death:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul and Michael,
> 
> Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify 
> if they show self-discharge or not?
> 
> Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined 
> (so it must be an issue) but it appears
> 
> that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not 
> just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)
> 
> is convinced that they do show self-discharge.
> 
> To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no 
> difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Cor van de Water
> 
> Chief Scientist
> 
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> <http://www.cvandewater.info> 
> 
> www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. 
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non 
> existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I 
> have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self 
> discharge referring to capacity loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Dr. Popov's website:
> 
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> <http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for 
> your edification below. 
> 
> I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity 
> loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with.
> 
> 
> 
> *snip*
> 
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-24 Thread Peter Gabrielsson via EV

it's all physics

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

> A battery is chemical not electrical
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jun 24, 2015, at 9:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
> >> I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
> >> chemistry with that of *practical* cells.
> >
> > I think that is exactly the case.
> >
> >In theory, theory and practice are the same.
> >In practice, they are not. -- Albert Einstein
> >
> > Of course there is an electric field inside a battery. Without an
> electric field, there would be no voltage, and you wouldn't have a battery.
> By definition, an electric field exists whenever there is a voltage
> difference between two points. The electric field provides the force that
> moves electrons and ions (polarized molecules) between plus and minus sides
> of the cell. These charges *will* find a way to leak.
> >
> > An analogy: The designers may *think* their wonderful new concrete dam
> doesn't leak a drop. But the tourist notices that the walls of the canyon
> below it are wet, and the farmer notices the change in ground water at his
> wells. The pressure is there, and the water *will* find ways around the
> dam, whether you like it or not.
> >
> > The important *practical* consideration is whether this leakage matters,
> or not. In a pacemaker, an ultra-low self-discharge rate is important (so
> they don't have to cut you open every few years to replace the battery)! In
> an EV that you can plug in any time you like, it's not very important.
> >
> > So, can we go back to discussing the practical aspects of EVs now?
> > --
> > The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> > there before. -- Roy Spence
> > --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-24 Thread Paul Dove via EV

A battery is chemical not electrical

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 24, 2015, at 9:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
>> I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
>> chemistry with that of *practical* cells.
> 
> I think that is exactly the case.
> 
>In theory, theory and practice are the same.
>In practice, they are not. -- Albert Einstein
> 
> Of course there is an electric field inside a battery. Without an electric 
> field, there would be no voltage, and you wouldn't have a battery. By 
> definition, an electric field exists whenever there is a voltage difference 
> between two points. The electric field provides the force that moves 
> electrons and ions (polarized molecules) between plus and minus sides of the 
> cell. These charges *will* find a way to leak.
> 
> An analogy: The designers may *think* their wonderful new concrete dam 
> doesn't leak a drop. But the tourist notices that the walls of the canyon 
> below it are wet, and the farmer notices the change in ground water at his 
> wells. The pressure is there, and the water *will* find ways around the dam, 
> whether you like it or not.
> 
> The important *practical* consideration is whether this leakage matters, or 
> not. In a pacemaker, an ultra-low self-discharge rate is important (so they 
> don't have to cut you open every few years to replace the battery)! In an EV 
> that you can plug in any time you like, it's not very important.
> 
> So, can we go back to discussing the practical aspects of EVs now?
> -- 
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-24 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
chemistry with that of *practical* cells.


I think that is exactly the case.

In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not. -- Albert Einstein

Of course there is an electric field inside a battery. Without an 
electric field, there would be no voltage, and you wouldn't have a 
battery. By definition, an electric field exists whenever there is a 
voltage difference between two points. The electric field provides the 
force that moves electrons and ions (polarized molecules) between plus 
and minus sides of the cell. These charges *will* find a way to leak.


An analogy: The designers may *think* their wonderful new concrete dam 
doesn't leak a drop. But the tourist notices that the walls of the 
canyon below it are wet, and the farmer notices the change in ground 
water at his wells. The pressure is there, and the water *will* find 
ways around the dam, whether you like it or not.


The important *practical* consideration is whether this leakage matters, 
or not. In a pacemaker, an ultra-low self-discharge rate is important 
(so they don't have to cut you open every few years to replace the 
battery)! In an EV that you can plug in any time you like, it's not very 
important.


So, can we go back to discussing the practical aspects of EVs now?
--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-24 Thread Michael Ross via EV

Why would you stop it? This is certainly not like the H2 fuel discussions -
not currently related to EVs. I liked those too from a philosophical POV
 This is a semi technical list - I don't get why a difference of opinions
cannot involve a long running topic.

I delete emails all the time that I do not care about, or have time for.  I
have no sympathy for the urge to get other people to stop talking about a
subject that interests them.  Not interested?  Then don't read it.

This topic is pertinent, it is being carried on with civility (not that
that seems pertinent), it is interesting and ideas are being presented and
the answers important.  You know the conversation will not survive off
list; you would just be killing it whether you admit it or not. I still
want to hear how intercalation id not working - in LFP cells I guess, but I
want to understand that.  I am trying to follow up on the provided
information from contrary sources (to my own); it takes time when no
specific literature is presented.

If there is a problem it is that there is rehashing because long
conversations have newcomers that may not have been present or paying close
attention at the start.

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:58 AM, Michael Ross 
wrote:

> I am not talking about LFP, I have no literature that is current about
> LFP.  I have been talking more generally about LiMO2.  All I have seen is
> contradictory, anecdotal info on LFP.  Jack Richard doesn't think they have
> spontaneous loss of charge - and onl;y a small loss of SOC from sitting -
> 1% a year.  I am sure with all chemistries there are poorly built and
> formed cells that are inferior.
>
> I am willing to bet, since the negative electrode is the same, and
> functions by intercalating li ions (which are agnostic once loosed from the
> positive electrode that there is no difference.  WHether or not the
> negative electrode incorporates graphene or not, that only reflects on the
> number of intercalation sites.
>
> Does someone think that the negative electrode in LFP cells operates
> without intercalation?
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:52 AM, Roger Stockton via EV  > wrote:
>
>> Michael Ross wrote:
>>
>> > It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things
>> > are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being
>> > surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well.
>> >
>> > I would restate, " I think it is possible that people don't recognise
>> that
>> > some old and inferior cell designs do not represent what is possible,
>> > demonstrable and manufacturable."
>>
>> It seems you are ready to conveniently ignore the literature that you are
>> happy to quote to others.
>>
>> There may or may not be something new about LiFePO4 chemistry that
>> renders it immune to self-discharge, however, if there is, it is *not* the
>> simple fact that lithium intercalation is involved, and this is something
>> that you have been stating/purporting.
>>
>> Again, I refer you to your copy of Linden's Handbook of Batteries, which
>> clearly states and quantifies self-discharge amounts for various lithium
>> chemistries that *all* also rely upon lithium intercalation.
>>
>> If your claim is that something about LiFePO4 (in general, in theory, or
>> some specific example?) that makes it immune to self-discharge, please make
>> this clear in your posts, and accept that whatever this property is, it is
>> not simply that LiFePO4 (like those other 'old and inferior [lithium] cell
>> designs') relies upon lithium intercalation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Roger.
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
>
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-24 Thread Michael Ross via EV

I am not talking about LFP, I have no literature that is current about
LFP.  I have been talking more generally about LiMO2.  All I have seen is
contradictory, anecdotal info on LFP.  Jack Richard doesn't think they have
spontaneous loss of charge - and onl;y a small loss of SOC from sitting -
1% a year.  I am sure with all chemistries there are poorly built and
formed cells that are inferior.

I am willing to bet, since the negative electrode is the same, and
functions by intercalating li ions (which are agnostic once loosed from the
positive electrode that there is no difference.  WHether or not the
negative electrode incorporates graphene or not, that only reflects on the
number of intercalation sites.

Does someone think that the negative electrode in LFP cells operates
without intercalation?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:52 AM, Roger Stockton via EV 
wrote:

> Michael Ross wrote:
>
> > It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things
> > are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being
> > surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well.
> >
> > I would restate, " I think it is possible that people don't recognise
> that
> > some old and inferior cell designs do not represent what is possible,
> > demonstrable and manufacturable."
>
> It seems you are ready to conveniently ignore the literature that you are
> happy to quote to others.
>
> There may or may not be something new about LiFePO4 chemistry that renders
> it immune to self-discharge, however, if there is, it is *not* the simple
> fact that lithium intercalation is involved, and this is something that you
> have been stating/purporting.
>
> Again, I refer you to your copy of Linden's Handbook of Batteries, which
> clearly states and quantifies self-discharge amounts for various lithium
> chemistries that *all* also rely upon lithium intercalation.
>
> If your claim is that something about LiFePO4 (in general, in theory, or
> some specific example?) that makes it immune to self-discharge, please make
> this clear in your posts, and accept that whatever this property is, it is
> not simply that LiFePO4 (like those other 'old and inferior [lithium] cell
> designs') relies upon lithium intercalation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
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*Warren Buffet*

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

Folks, I hate to say it, but maybe it's time to tie a knot in this thread.

Plenty of good information has come to light, but I don't see any of the 
major players budging an inch.  

If you really think it's worth arguing more about this, by all means carry 
on -- but please do it via private (off-list) email.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread Roger Stockton via EV

Michael Ross wrote:

> It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things
> are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being
> surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well.
> 
> I would restate, " I think it is possible that people don't recognise that
> some old and inferior cell designs do not represent what is possible,
> demonstrable and manufacturable."

It seems you are ready to conveniently ignore the literature that you are happy 
to quote to others.

There may or may not be something new about LiFePO4 chemistry that renders it 
immune to self-discharge, however, if there is, it is *not* the simple fact 
that lithium intercalation is involved, and this is something that you have 
been stating/purporting.

Again, I refer you to your copy of Linden's Handbook of Batteries, which 
clearly states and quantifies self-discharge amounts for various lithium 
chemistries that *all* also rely upon lithium intercalation.

If your claim is that something about LiFePO4 (in general, in theory, or some 
specific example?) that makes it immune to self-discharge, please make this 
clear in your posts, and accept that whatever this property is, it is not 
simply that LiFePO4 (like those other 'old and inferior [lithium] cell 
designs') relies upon lithium intercalation.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread Michael Ross via EV

"I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
chemistry with that of *practical* cells. "

It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things
are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being
surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well.

I would restate, " I think it is possible that people don't recognise that
some old and inferior cell designs do not represent what is possible,
demonstrable and manufacturable."


On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Roger Stockton via EV 
wrote:

> Michael Ross wrote:
>
> > Cells, when designed well, don't offer a ready path for any electrons
> that
> > aren't controlled by external circuitry.  This how cells for medical
> > implants can last for 10 or more years.
>
> I rather suspect that cells for medical implants are *primary* (i.e.
> non-rechargable) cells, not secondary cells, and so this seems likely to be
> an apples-to-oranges sort of comparison.  It is reasonably easy to point to
> any number of primary cell chemistries that offer shelf lives of 10yrs,
> just as it is reasonably difficult to point much of any secondary cell
> chemistry that will not significantly self-discharge in less time.
>
> > If some poorly designed cells do offer a way to discharge spontaneously,
> > that is a bad thing.  It is incorrect to indict all lithium cells with
> > this concept.
>
> You have referenced Linden's Handbook of Batteries previously in this
> thread; this might be a good time to revisit it.
>
> My copy may be an older edition than yours, as the chapter in mine that
> covers lithium secondary cells doesn't cover LiFePO4, however, it clearly
> states self-discharge rates for several (if not all) of the various lithium
> chemistries that it covers.  The self-discharge rates vary from one lithium
> chemistry to another, and they do distinguish between irreversible capacity
> loss and self-discharge.
>
> I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
> chemistry with that of *practical* cells.  While there may (or may not) be
> a self-discharge mechanism in an ideal cell of some chemistry (perhaps
> LiFePO4), practical cells tend to be at least some distance from ideal and
> may well have unintended or undesirable second or third order reactions due
> to unintentional contamination/impurities or intentional additives that
> provide some benefit that outweighs the disadvantage of introducing some
> amount of self-discharge.
>
> I did not take the time to read the secondary lithium sections thoroughly
> to see if they offer any explanation for the stated self-discharge rates
> for the various lithium chemistries discussed, however, it is quite clear
> that it is incorrect to attribute some magical properties to lithium
> intercalation and announce that cells relying on this process cannot
> possibly exhibit self-discharge.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
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A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread Roger Stockton via EV

Michael Ross wrote:

> Cells, when designed well, don't offer a ready path for any electrons that
> aren't controlled by external circuitry.  This how cells for medical
> implants can last for 10 or more years.

I rather suspect that cells for medical implants are *primary* (i.e. 
non-rechargable) cells, not secondary cells, and so this seems likely to be an 
apples-to-oranges sort of comparison.  It is reasonably easy to point to any 
number of primary cell chemistries that offer shelf lives of 10yrs, just as it 
is reasonably difficult to point much of any secondary cell chemistry that will 
not significantly self-discharge in less time.

> If some poorly designed cells do offer a way to discharge spontaneously,
> that is a bad thing.  It is incorrect to indict all lithium cells with
> this concept.

You have referenced Linden's Handbook of Batteries previously in this thread; 
this might be a good time to revisit it.

My copy may be an older edition than yours, as the chapter in mine that covers 
lithium secondary cells doesn't cover LiFePO4, however, it clearly states 
self-discharge rates for several (if not all) of the various lithium 
chemistries that it covers.  The self-discharge rates vary from one lithium 
chemistry to another, and they do distinguish between irreversible capacity 
loss and self-discharge.

I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell 
chemistry with that of *practical* cells.  While there may (or may not) be a 
self-discharge mechanism in an ideal cell of some chemistry (perhaps LiFePO4), 
practical cells tend to be at least some distance from ideal and may well have 
unintended or undesirable second or third order reactions due to unintentional 
contamination/impurities or intentional additives that provide some benefit 
that outweighs the disadvantage of introducing some amount of self-discharge.

I did not take the time to read the secondary lithium sections thoroughly to 
see if they offer any explanation for the stated self-discharge rates for the 
various lithium chemistries discussed, however, it is quite clear that it is 
incorrect to attribute some magical properties to lithium intercalation and 
announce that cells relying on this process cannot possibly exhibit 
self-discharge.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread Michael Ross via EV

HI John,

I would like to see where you got that idea from.  I like reading original
material.  "Other ion paths" is not clear to me.

My understanding is different.

Batteries store chemical potential energy.  There is no electric field as
far as I know when you create a stable "new chemical" - in this case a
lithiated negative electrode.

The electrolyte isn't an insulator though you can measure the dielectric
strength and argue about when that is or isn't an insulator.  The
electrolyte is a place for lithium ions to reside between the electrodes by
way ol the lithium salt dissolved in it), but the separator (called such
because that is its purpose to put some distance between the electrodes and
reduces the chance of shorts) provides a volume for the electrolyte to
fill.  The ions in the electrolyte don't really flow.  It is more like the
desk toy of balls on strings and you pull an end and one away and let it
go, it strikes then the far ball pops out. Even though the gap is very
small and the ions can migrate, Jeff Dahn told me it takes a minute or so
for an ion to actually traverse the very thin electrolyte from one
electrode to the other.

When a cell has lost its capacity it is because the ions in the electrolyte
have been depleted by unhealthy chemical reactions at the positive
electrode.  There are fewer ionic "balls" in the electrolyte to knock ions
from one electrode to the other.

When the ions are intercalated in the negative electrode it is a new stable
chemical that is created. It is even more reactive with the electrolyte and
would tear it up if not for the SEI that forms.  The new chemical formed in
the positive electrode  - the de-lithiated lithium metal oxide (or
phosphate) - is also much more reactive than the discharged state
chemical.  No SEI forms here, and this is where the trouble starts for li
ion cells when the temperature and SOC are to high because of the highly
reactive nature of the chemical of the discharged positive electrode.

When you let an electron pass from the negative electrode to the positive
and ion de-intercalates and bangs an ion back into the Positive electrode.

Cells, when designed well, don't offer a ready path for any electrons that
aren't controlled by external circuitry.  This how cells for medical
implants can last for 10 or more years.

If some poorly designed cells do offer a way to discharge spontaneously,
that is a bad thing.  It is incorrect to indict all lithium cells with this
concept.

You can do all you like to a lead acid cell and it will lose its charge
internally.  It doesn't have an intercalation function. The chemicals
formed during charging naturally return to the discharged state over time
and with temperature.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 7:35 PM, John Lindsay via EV 
wrote:

> There are other ion paths from impurities in the electrodes and
> electrolyte that allow charge to flow in the other direction thus closing
> the circuit.
>
> John Lindsay
> johnslind...@mac.com
> +61403577711
>
>

-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread John Lindsay via EV

There are other ion paths from impurities in the electrodes and electrolyte 
that allow charge to flow in the other direction thus closing the circuit.

John Lindsay
johnslind...@mac.com
+61403577711

> On 24 Jun 2015, at 6:24 am, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Just so you know you are getting over my head but this is the way I 
> understand it.
> Inside a battery plain electrons can't travel around because it takes too 
> much energy to put a plain electron in solution. Electrons can only travel 
> inside the battery via charged chemicals, ions, which can dissolve off the 
> electrodes. The chemical reaction is what pushes the electrons inside toward 
> the negative end, because the electrodes at the two ends are made of 
> different materials, which have different chemical stability. 
> 
> 
>  From: Peri Hartman 
> To: paul dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>  
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
> 
> So, let me try to paraphrase this.  Are you saying that
> - the electrolyte can only conduct ions,
> - with an open circuit (nothing connected to the terminals), no 
> electrons can move from one side to the other,
> - therefore, with an open circuit, there can be no loss of charge over 
> time?
> 
> In theory, that sounds solid.  However, what if there is some internal 
> leakage of electrons?  What if the electrolyte is not a perfect 
> insulator?  Is it possible for some electrons to travel (and ions in the 
> opposite direction) and some discharge to happen?
> 
> Peri
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "paul dove via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 23-Jun-15 1:21:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
>> At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no 
>> electric field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The 
>> reaction is called red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte 
>> which can conduct ions but not electrons. Electrons must move external 
>> to the battery.
>> 
>> The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical 
>> energy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread paul dove via EV

Just so you know you are getting over my head but this is the way I understand 
it.
Inside a battery plain electrons can't travel around because it takes too much 
energy to put a plain electron in solution. Electrons can only travel inside 
the battery via charged chemicals, ions, which can dissolve off the electrodes. 
The chemical reaction is what pushes the electrons inside toward the negative 
end, because the electrodes at the two ends are made of different materials, 
which have different chemical stability. 


  From: Peri Hartman 
 To: paul dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:34 PM
 Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
   
So, let me try to paraphrase this.  Are you saying that
- the electrolyte can only conduct ions,
- with an open circuit (nothing connected to the terminals), no 
electrons can move from one side to the other,
- therefore, with an open circuit, there can be no loss of charge over 
time?

In theory, that sounds solid.  However, what if there is some internal 
leakage of electrons?  What if the electrolyte is not a perfect 
insulator?  Is it possible for some electrons to travel (and ions in the 
opposite direction) and some discharge to happen?

Peri



-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 23-Jun-15 1:21:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

>
>
>Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
>At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no 
>electric field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The 
>reaction is called red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte 
>which can conduct ions but not electrons. Electrons must move external 
>to the battery.
>
>The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical 
>energy.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV


So, let me try to paraphrase this.  Are you saying that
- the electrolyte can only conduct ions,
- with an open circuit (nothing connected to the terminals), no 
electrons can move from one side to the other,
- therefore, with an open circuit, there can be no loss of charge over 
time?


In theory, that sounds solid.  However, what if there is some internal 
leakage of electrons?  What if the electrolyte is not a perfect 
insulator?  Is it possible for some electrons to travel (and ions in the 
opposite direction) and some discharge to happen?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 23-Jun-15 1:21:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"




Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no 
electric field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The 
reaction is called red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte 
which can conduct ions but not electrons. Electrons must move external 
to the battery.


The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical 
energy.





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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread paul dove via EV



Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no electric 
field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The reaction is called 
red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte which can conduct ions but not 
electrons. Electrons must move external to the battery.

The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical energy. 
 


  
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread jerry freedomev via EV

 Hi Paul and All,
  From: Paul Dove via EV 
 To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:04 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
   
There is not an electric field inside a battery. 
---Really? There certainly is potential voltage fields and nothing is 
perfect, just good enough not to have bad things happen.

The electrolyte cause the field to be in equilibrium otherwise it would 
immediately discharge. 
-- I've never seen such a perfect fluid that will only pas energy 1 
way. Entropy will always happen.  Though I agree little does in good quality 
lithium batteries. But saying electrolyte is a perfect insulator in just 1 
direction strains physics too far.
The field is present when the terminals are connected and that is why you get 
ion movement. 
- Well that is the plan but reality bites as again potential, entropy 
happens.    Though in my own Volt modules I'll just limit charge, 
discharge and monitor with BattBridges, LightObject 404 Wthr meter as discharge 
is too low to matter in high quality cells. 
 Jerry Dycus

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 22, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>> I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
>> competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
>> down even in the absence of any short circuit or load.  One of the neat
>> things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist.  This is the
>> self discharge that I am talking about.
>> 
>> Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle"
>> back to the positive electrode.
> 
> Lack of any redox reactions doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of 
> leakage and self-discharge. For example, capacitors have no redox shuttle, 
> either... and yet they self-discharge.
> 
> When you have a voltage difference, you also have an electric field. The 
> strength of this field is usually measured in volts per meter. When the 
> oppositely charged particles are very close together (micrometers), even a 
> small voltage difference (like 3v) creates an enormous electric field 
> strength (3 million volts per meter). Such a field strength can easily propel 
> electrons from one side to the other; i.e. discharge the battery.
> 
> -- 
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread jerry freedomev via EV

Paul and All, If I read it correct the couple is discharged completely so
yes in equilibrium. Charge it and see what happens to the Ni-Fe couple. One of
the most discharging battery couples there is with only a 60% charge eff and
5-10%/day discharge when used as an EV/Edison battery.
Not to mention needing water every few charges. And these besides cost, why
EV's stopped using them.
I never mentioned magnetic, just potential fields to power the entropy.
Jerry Dycus
From: paul dove via EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

Well, I am no physicist Jerry but it seems that they would attract on another
if there was a magnetic field inside. Here is an except from a physics
professor.
A good electrolyte has several interesting properties; for one thingit has lots
of ion-pairs in it. When we put an ion-pair in anelectrical field, such as in
the Ni-Fe gap, the positive ion willtend to driftone way and the negative ion
will tend to drift the other way. This processwill continue until the
electrochemical field in the interiorof the gap becomes a constant, independent
of position, whichis the equilibrium condition. There could be some
electricalpotential gradient; I don’t think there is much but therecould be
some. And there could be some concentration gradient;again I don’t think there
is much, but there could be some. Inany case, when you consider the
concentration gradient andthe electrical gradient together, in equilibrium
there is nonet motion of ions. In the simplest case, there is no
electricalfield (hence no drift) and no concentration gradient (hence no
netdiffusion). In the more general case, drift due to theelectrical potential
gradient is counterbalanced by diffusion along theconcentration gradient. The
two gradients point in oppositedirection, and when we add the two effects
(electrical andconcentration) we find that the electrochemical potentialhas
zero gradient.All that applies to the interior of the gaps, in the
bulkelectrolyte. At the ends of each gap, there will, in general, be
someaccumulation of ions. This produces a complicated dipole layer (akabilayer)
there. The strength of the dipole layer depends on theproperties of the
electrolyte, as well as on the properties of theadjacent metal, as discussed in
section 2.4. The strength ofthe dipole layer determines how the potential in
the interior of thegap is related to the potential in the interior of the
adjacent metal.For more about the importance of dipole layers, see reference 3.
http://www.av8n.com/physics/battery.htm

From: jerry freedomev
To: Paul Dove ; Lee Hart ;
Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
Hi Paul and All,
From: Paul Dove via EV
To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List

Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
There is not an electric field inside a battery.
---Really? There certainly is potential voltage fields and nothing is
perfect, just good enough not to have bad things happen.

The electrolyte cause the field to be in equilibrium otherwise it would
immediately discharge.
-- I've never seen such a perfect fluid that will only pas energy 1
way. Entropy will always happen. Though I agree little does in good quality
lithium batteries. But saying electrolyte is a perfect insulator in just 1
direction strains physics too far.
The field is present when the terminals are connected and that is why you get
ion movement.
- Well that is the plan but reality bites as again potential, entropy
happens. Though in my own Volt modules I'll just limit charge,
discharge and monitor with BattBridges, LightObject 404 Wthr meter as discharge
is too low to matter in high quality cells.
Jerry Dycus

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread paul dove via EV

Well, I am no physicist Jerry but it seems that they would attract on another 
if there was a magnetic field inside. Here is an except from a physics 
professor.
A good electrolyte has several interesting properties; for one thingit has lots 
of ion-pairs in it. When we put an ion-pair in anelectrical field, such as in 
the Ni-Fe gap, the positive ion willtend to driftone way and the negative ion 
will tend to drift the other way. This processwill continue until the 
electrochemical field in the interiorof the gap becomes a constant, independent 
of position, whichis the equilibrium condition. There could be some 
electricalpotential gradient; I don’t think there is much but therecould be 
some. And there could be some concentration gradient;again I don’t think there 
is much, but there could be some. Inany case, when you consider the 
concentration gradient andthe electrical gradient together, in equilibrium 
there is nonet motion of ions. In the simplest case, there is no 
electricalfield (hence no drift) and no concentration gradient (hence no 
netdiffusion). In the more general case, drift due to theelectrical potential 
gradient is counterbalanced by diffusion along theconcentration gradient. The 
two gradients point in oppositedirection, and when we add the two effects 
(electrical andconcentration) we find that the electrochemical potentialhas 
zero gradient.All that applies to the interior of the gaps, in the 
bulkelectrolyte. At the ends of each gap, there will, in general, be 
someaccumulation of ions. This produces a complicated dipole layer (akabilayer) 
there. The strength of the dipole layer depends on theproperties of the 
electrolyte, as well as on the properties of theadjacent metal, as discussed in 
section 2.4. The strength ofthe dipole layer determines how the potential in 
the interior of thegap is related to the potential in the interior of the 
adjacent metal.For more about the importance of dipole layers, see reference 3.
http://www.av8n.com/physics/battery.htm

  From: jerry freedomev 
 To: Paul Dove ; Lee Hart ; 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 7:18 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

 Hi Paul and All,
  From: Paul Dove via EV 
 To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

 Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:04 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

There is not an electric field inside a battery. 
---Really? There certainly is potential voltage fields and nothing is 
perfect, just good enough not to have bad things happen.

The electrolyte cause the field to be in equilibrium otherwise it would 
immediately discharge. 
-- I've never seen such a perfect fluid that will only pas energy 1 
way. Entropy will always happen.  Though I agree little does in good quality 
lithium batteries. But saying electrolyte is a perfect insulator in just 1 
direction strains physics too far.
The field is present when the terminals are connected and that is why you get 
ion movement. 
- Well that is the plan but reality bites as again potential, entropy 
happens.    Though in my own Volt modules I'll just limit charge, 
discharge and monitor with BattBridges, LightObject 404 Wthr meter as discharge 
is too low to matter in high quality cells. 
 Jerry Dycus

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 22, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>> I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
>> competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
>> down even in the absence of any short circuit or load.  One of the neat
>> things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist.  This is the
>> self discharge that I am talking about.
>> 
>> Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle"
>> back to the positive electrode.
> 
> Lack of any redox reactions doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of 
> leakage and self-discharge. For example, capacitors have no redox shuttle, 
> either... and yet they self-discharge.
> 
> When you have a voltage difference, you also have an electric field. The 
> strength of this field is usually measured in volts per meter. When the 
> oppositely charged particles are very close together (micrometers), even a 
> small voltage difference (like 3v) creates an enormous electric field 
> strength (3 million volts per meter). Such a field strength can easily propel 
> electrons from one side to the other; i.e. discharge the battery.
> 
> -- 
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-23 Thread Paul Dove via EV

There is not an electric field inside a battery. The electrolyte cause the 
field to be in equilibrium otherwise it would immediately discharge. The field 
is present when the terminals are connected and that is why you get ion 
movement. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 22, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>> I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
>> competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
>> down even in the absence of any short circuit or load.  One of the neat
>> things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist.  This is the
>> self discharge that I am talking about.
>> 
>> Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle"
>> back to the positive electrode.
> 
> Lack of any redox reactions doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of 
> leakage and self-discharge. For example, capacitors have no redox shuttle, 
> either... and yet they self-discharge.
> 
> When you have a voltage difference, you also have an electric field. The 
> strength of this field is usually measured in volts per meter. When the 
> oppositely charged particles are very close together (micrometers), even a 
> small voltage difference (like 3v) creates an enormous electric field 
> strength (3 million volts per meter). Such a field strength can easily propel 
> electrons from one side to the other; i.e. discharge the battery.
> 
> -- 
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-22 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Michael Ross via EV wrote:

I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
down even in the absence of any short circuit or load.  One of the neat
things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist.  This is the
self discharge that I am talking about.

Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle"
back to the positive electrode.


Lack of any redox reactions doesn't mean there aren't any other sources 
of leakage and self-discharge. For example, capacitors have no redox 
shuttle, either... and yet they self-discharge.


When you have a voltage difference, you also have an electric field. The 
strength of this field is usually measured in volts per meter. When the 
oppositely charged particles are very close together (micrometers), even 
a small voltage difference (like 3v) creates an enormous electric field 
strength (3 million volts per meter). Such a field strength can easily 
propel electrons from one side to the other; i.e. discharge the battery.


--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-22 Thread Michael Ross via EV

"I’m not sure what you mean by this."

I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
down even in the absence of any short circuit or load.  One of the neat
things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist.  This is the
self discharge that I am talking about.

Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle"
back to the positive electrode. It is in answer to a question in the last
10 minutes.

He is talking mostly about Li Metal O2, like LiCOO2; not the LFP, usually.
But I don't believe the activity at the negative, graphene electrode (as
opposed to the LFP positive electrode)  is any different in an LFP cell.
The secret sauce of intercalation is the bistable nature it imparts to Li
ion cells.  The ions end up nestled with a circle of carbon atoms above and
below that has no motivation for change (thermodynamically stable).  In the
Linden's Handbook of Batteries, Chapter 26, by Dr. Dahn is a nice
discussion of how the negative electrode is manufactured, how and why it
works.

It is possible to make a negative electrode poorly.  If the graphene is
misaligned, poorly made, and so on, you can get ions into the electrode,
but it would not be stable and the capacity would be low.

"If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode
is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with electrons
there and form LiFePO4
"

I pretty much said the same thing.  However, good cells don't have this.

"
No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes.  People are
experimenting with it, but no cells in production.
"

You are incorrect or maybe talking about LFP cells again. It is very hard
to know everything that is going on, and lots of information becomes
quickly dated.  Check out the Linden's Handbook.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:57 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> /“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions
> back
> to the positive electrode.  Stating this in the terms above - neither of
> the
> discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/
>
> I’m not sure what you mean by this.
>
> Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mellon): The phase change LiFePO4
> to FePO4 occurs at 3.4V, redox reaction.  During charging all lithium
> leaves
> the cathode, now have 3.4V driving Li back to the cathode when the charger
> is disconnected.
> - that's from the video I posted a link to after I posted the link to the
> video by Dahn. If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode
> is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with
> electrons
> there and form LiFePO4, driven by the 3.4V chemical potential, with no
> external potential applied as during charging. Maybe by "stable" you mean
> this won't happen unless a low enough resistance path is provided, such as
> dendrites through the separator, conducting contamination on the cell
> packaging surface between electrodes, or an external wire connection.
>
> /"A lot of the effort that goes into forming the negative electrode has to
> do with physically arranging little plates of graphene so that there is a
> large percentage of the volume in this fortuitous geometry."/
>
> No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes.  People
> are
> experimenting with it, but no cells in production.  Most use "specially
> formulated" graphite. Maybe that's what you meant since the carbon atoms
> bound in hexagons are arranged in sheets in graphite. Graphene is of course
> one of those single sheets, famously lifted with tape from a pencil mark
> when first studied, so I guess that is what you mean rather than an actual
> graphene electrode which would have quite different properties than
> graphite.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bicycle-battery-tp4676242p4676429.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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>
>

-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-22 Thread tomw via EV

/“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions back
to the positive electrode. Stating this in the terms above - neither of the
discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mellon): The phase change LiFePO4
to FePO4 occurs at 3.4V, redox reaction. During charging all lithium leaves
the cathode, now have 3.4V driving Li back to the cathode when the charger
is disconnected.
- that's from the video I posted a link to after I posted the link to the
video by Dahn. If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode
is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with electrons
there and form LiFePO4, driven by the 3.4V chemical potential, with no
external potential applied as during charging. Maybe by "stable" you mean
this won't happen unless a low enough resistance path is provided, such as
dendrites through the separator, conducting contamination on the cell
packaging surface between electrodes, or an external wire connection.

/"A lot of the effort that goes into forming the negative electrode has to
do with physically arranging little plates of graphene so that there is a
large percentage of the volume in this fortuitous geometry."/

No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes. People are
experimenting with it, but no cells in production. Most use "specially
formulated" graphite. Maybe that's what you meant since the carbon atoms
bound in hexagons are arranged in sheets in graphite. Graphene is of course
one of those single sheets, famously lifted with tape from a pencil mark
when first studied, so I guess that is what you mean rather than an actual
graphene electrode which would have quite different properties than
graphite.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bicycle-battery-tp4676242p4676429.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-21 Thread Michael Ross via EV

i, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
>  wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of
> self-discharge
> > and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see
> and measure
> > the self-discharge?
> > I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not
> have a
> > self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge
> appears to be
> > a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of
> self-discharge
> > is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
> >
> > However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any
> self-discharge is as valuable
> > as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any
> resistance.
> > In practice however you better take that resistance into account when
> sizing your wiring and connections.
> > Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> > when designing a battery pack.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Chief Scientist
> > Proxim Wireless
> >
> > office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> > XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> > www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson
> via EV
> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> > To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> >
> > One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> >
> > While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> > This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> > Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a
> lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same
> conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their
> anti-BMS position.
> >
> > If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism
> is please share it.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> >> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> >> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >>
> >> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> >> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need
> a BMS.
> >> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> >> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> >> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >>
> >> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> >> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >>
> >> Bill D.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> > http://www.levforum.com
> > __

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-21 Thread David Nelson via EV

Cor,

Remember that there is a demand from people for some self discharge
number. What easier way than just to make up a number? Maybe that is
what they did and maybe that isn't. Lets not confuse capacity loss
with self discharge. Also, a voltage measurement on a cell left to sit
with no load doesn't prove self discharge either. Your analogy of an
ideal circuit can't be used to size wiring doesn't apply because the
theory does include resistance. I know what you are trying to say,
however. It is just that so many people believe that self discharge
exists and keep speaking it that many, including those who should know
better, ignore things to justify their position. IIRC, you were one
who told me that my battery pack would be way out of balance in a
short period of time if I took my BMS boards off. Well, 4 years later
and it hasn't happened. I say this, not to imply you don't know
anything, but to show that we always need to be open to the fact that
we might have missed something.

Watch https://youtu.be/9qi03QawZEk. From the description:

'Published on Sep 6, 2013

On July 30th, 2013, Professor Jeff Dahn of Dalhousie University
delivered a lecture entitled "Why do Li-ion batteries die and can they
be immortal?".'

If you don't want to watch all 1:13:30 of it, which everyone on this
list really should, skip to 1:09 where he directly answers the
question about a charge shuttle reaction. He clearly said that no Li
battery has one built in. Watch to the whole lecture where other
things about Li cells are addressed.


On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
 wrote:
> David,
>
> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of 
> self-discharge
> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and 
> measure
> the self-discharge?
> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge appears 
> to be
> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of 
> self-discharge
> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
>
> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any 
> self-discharge is as valuable
> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any 
> resistance.
> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when sizing 
> your wiring and connections.
> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in 
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> when designing a battery pack.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-21 Thread Paul Dove via EV

Yes, but I'm not at home now. When I get back to town I'll share my data 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer 
> since it appears beaten to death:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul and Michael,
> 
> Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify 
> if they show self-discharge or not?
> 
> Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined 
> (so it must be an issue) but it appears
> 
> that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not 
> just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)
> 
> is convinced that they do show self-discharge.
> 
> To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no 
> difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Cor van de Water
> 
> Chief Scientist
> 
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> <http://www.cvandewater.info> 
> 
> www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. 
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non 
> existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I 
> have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self 
> discharge referring to capacity loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Dr. Popov's website:
> 
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> <http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for 
> your edification below. 
> 
> I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity 
> loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with.
> 
> 
> 
> *snip*
> 
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-20 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer since 
it appears beaten to death:

 

Paul and Michael,

Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify if 
they show self-discharge or not?

Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined 
(so it must be an issue) but it appears

that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not 
just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)

is convinced that they do show self-discharge.

To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no 
difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.

 

Regards,

 

Cor van de Water

Chief Scientist

Proxim Wireless

 

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
<http://www.cvandewater.info> 

www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 

 

 

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

 

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

 

I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. 

 

I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non existent 
occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I have been 
saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self discharge referring 
to capacity loss.

 

 

 

Here is Dr. Popov's website:

http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
<http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php>
 

 

I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for 
your edification below. 

I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity 
loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with.

 

*snip*

-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-20 Thread Michael Ross via EV

Thanks Lee, that is neat to know.  I freely admit having little
understanding of lead acid.

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
>> I think it is very valuable knowing that a Li ion cell can hold its charge
>> indefinitely.  Particularly compared to the incumbent competitor - lead
>> acid cells.  There is a least an implication that the the loses may be of
>> no consequence after design and manufacturing improvements.  There is no
>> possibility of achieving this ever with lead acid.
>>
>
> Surprisingly, that's not entirely the case.
>
> The self-discharge rate of a battery is usually traded off with many other
> parameters; capacity, life, peak current, etc. For most lead-acid
> batteries, the market considers factors other than self-discharge to be a
> *lot* more important.
>
> But, there are exceptions. I just pulled some Gates "Cyclon" spiral-wound
> lead-acid gel cell off the shelf. They were purchased in Nov 1994, and used
> for 5 years in electric lawn mower. My notes say the last time they were
> charged was on Nov 14, 2000. At that time, they still had about 1.5ah of
> capacity (out of their original 2.5ah). Today, 4 out of 13 *still* have
> charge in them (1.9v or more open circuit).
>
> One reason for this is that Gates used *pure* virgin lead; not a lead
> alloy. Almost all other lead-acid batteries alloy the lead with antimony,
> calcium, cobalt, or just the random mix of junk left over in scrap lead.
> Or, someone will have watered the battery with tap water, which adds its
> own unknown impurities. All this "stuff" worsens the self-discharge
> characteristics. But that doesn't matter to most customers; they will be
> recharging the battery often enough so it never runs dead.
>
> If you care, Gates was bought out by GE, who sold out to Hawker, who is
> now owned by Enersys. So you can still buy these Cyclons today! But they
> have an insignificant market, because (almost) no one cares about
> self-discharge.
>
>  On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV<
>> ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  David,
>>>
>>> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of
>>> self-discharge
>>> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and
>>> measure
>>> the self-discharge?
>>> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not
>>> have a
>>> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge
>>> appears to be
>>> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of
>>> self-discharge
>>> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
>>>
>>> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any
>>> self-discharge is as valuable
>>> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any
>>> resistance.
>>> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when
>>> sizing your wiring and connections.
>>> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in
>>> self-discharge between cells) into account
>>> when designing a battery pack.
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Chief Scientist
>>> Proxim Wireless
>>>
>>> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
>>> www.proxim.com
>>>
>>>
>>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>> this
>>> message is prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson
>>> via
>>> EV
>>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
>>> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>>>
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
>>> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
>>> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
>>> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid bat

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

2015-06-20 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Michael Ross via EV wrote:

I think it is very valuable knowing that a Li ion cell can hold its charge
indefinitely.  Particularly compared to the incumbent competitor - lead
acid cells.  There is a least an implication that the the loses may be of
no consequence after design and manufacturing improvements.  There is no
possibility of achieving this ever with lead acid.


Surprisingly, that's not entirely the case.

The self-discharge rate of a battery is usually traded off with many 
other parameters; capacity, life, peak current, etc. For most lead-acid 
batteries, the market considers factors other than self-discharge to be 
a *lot* more important.


But, there are exceptions. I just pulled some Gates "Cyclon" 
spiral-wound lead-acid gel cell off the shelf. They were purchased in 
Nov 1994, and used for 5 years in electric lawn mower. My notes say the 
last time they were charged was on Nov 14, 2000. At that time, they 
still had about 1.5ah of capacity (out of their original 2.5ah). Today, 
4 out of 13 *still* have charge in them (1.9v or more open circuit).


One reason for this is that Gates used *pure* virgin lead; not a lead 
alloy. Almost all other lead-acid batteries alloy the lead with 
antimony, calcium, cobalt, or just the random mix of junk left over in 
scrap lead. Or, someone will have watered the battery with tap water, 
which adds its own unknown impurities. All this "stuff" worsens the 
self-discharge characteristics. But that doesn't matter to most 
customers; they will be recharging the battery often enough so it never 
runs dead.


If you care, Gates was bought out by GE, who sold out to Hawker, who is 
now owned by Enersys. So you can still buy these Cyclons today! But they 
have an insignificant market, because (almost) no one cares about 
self-discharge.



On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
wrote:


David,

Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of
self-discharge
and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and
measure
the self-discharge?
I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge
appears to be
a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of
self-discharge
is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...

However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any
self-discharge is as valuable
as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any
resistance.
In practice however you better take that resistance into account when
sizing your wiring and connections.
Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in
self-discharge between cells) into account
when designing a battery pack.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot
of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion.
It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV
wrote:

This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
"anti-BMS" c

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-20 Thread Michael Ross via EV

I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition.

I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non
existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I
have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self
discharge referring to capacity loss.



Here is Dr. Popov's website:
http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php

I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for
your edification below.
I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity
loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned
with.

Just so everyone doesn't have to wade through all that here, is the list of
papers with lithium in the title:
(in html this will have highlighting and color changes)



1.B. N. POPOV, W. ZHANG, E. C. DARCY, and R. E. WHITE, "*AC-Impedance
Spectroscopy as a Nondestructive Health Interrogation Tool for Lithium-BCX
Cells,*" J. Electrochem. Soc., 140, 11, 3097-3103 (1993).

2.B. N. Popov and R. E. White, "*Battery Work at University of South
Carolina*," Automotive Technology Development, 1, 371--397 (1997). DOE,
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Office of Transportation
Technologies, Washington, DC.

3.B. N. Popov and R. E. White, "*Development of Novel Cathode Materials for
Li-ion Batteries*," Ann. Battery Conf. on Appl. and Adv. IEEE 98TH8299,
387--392 (1997).

4.P. ARORA, B. N. POPOV and R. WHITE, "*Electrochemical Investigation of
Cobalt-Doped LiMn2O4 as Cathode Material for Li-ion Batteries*,"
J. Electrochem. Soc., 145, 807 (1998).

5.M. Ramasubramanian, B. N. Popov and R. E. White, and K. S. Chen
"*Experimental
Study and Equilibrium Characteristics of Electroless Copper Deposition on
Thermally-Activated Palladium-catalyzed Polyimide Substrates*," in press in
J. of Appl. Electrochem., (1998).

6.D.ZHANG, B. N. POPOV and R.E.WHITE, "*Electrochemical Investigation of
Chromium Doped LiMn2O4 as a Cathode Material for Lithium-Ion Batteries*,"
in press in J. of Power Sources, (1988).

18.  Anguchamy, Yogesh K, Lee, Jong-Won, Popov, Branko N, “*Electrochemical
performance of polypyrrole/silver vanadium oxide composite cathodes in
lithium primary batteries*”, *J Power Sources*, *184* (2008) 297-302.

21.  Nakayama, Masaharu; Kanaya, Taku; Lee, Jong-Won; Popov, Branko N,
“*Electrochemical
synthesis of birnessite-type layered manganese oxides for rechargeable
lithium batteries*”,  *J** Power Sources*,  *179* (2008) 361-366.

25.  R.P. Ramasamy, J.-W. Lee and B.N. Popov, “*Simulation of Capacity Loss
in Carbon Electrode for Lithium-Ion Cells during Storage*”, *J**. **Power
Sources*, *166* (2007) 266-272.

3.J.-W. Lee, Y.K. Anguchamy and B.N. Popov, “Simulation of
Charge-Discharge Cycling of Lithium-Ion Batteries under Low-Earth-Orbit
Conditions”, *J. Power Sources*, 162 (2006) 1395-1400. PDF


5.   J.-W. Lee and B.N. Popov, “Electrochemical Intercalation of Lithium in
to Polypyrrole/Silver Vanadium Oxide Composite Used for Lithium Primary
Batteries”, *J. Power Sources*, 161 (2006) 565-572. PDF



15. G. Sikha, R.E. White and B.N. Popov, “A Mathematical Model for a
Lithium-Ion Battery/Electrochemical Capacitor Hybrid System”,
*J. Electrochem.** Soc* 152 (2005) A1682-A1693. PDF


16. R.P. Ramasamy, R.E. White and B.N. Popov, “*Calendar Life
Performance of Pouch Lithium Ion Cells*”, *J. Power Sources*, 141 (2005)
298. PDF


18. G. Sikha, B.N. Popov and R.E. White, “*Effects of Porosity on the
Capacity of A Lithium Ion Battery: Theory*”, *J. Electrochem. Soc., 151
(2004) A1104.* PDF


21. G. Ning and B.N. Popov, “*Cycle Life Modeling of Lithium Ion
Batteries*”, *J. Electrochem.** Soc., 151 (2004) A1584.* PDF


29. R.P. Ramasamy, P. Ramadass, B.S. Haran and B.N. Popov*, “Synthesis,
Characterization and Cycling Performance of Novel Chromium Oxide Cathode
Materials for Lithium Batteries*”, *J. Power Sources,* 124 (2003) 155. PDF


30. R.P. Ramasamy, B. Veeraraghavan, B. Haran and B. Popov*,
“Electrochemical Characterization of Polypyrrole-Co0.2CrOx Composites as
Cathode Material for Lithium Ion Batteries*”, *J. Power Sources, *124
(2003) 197. PDF


33. N. Gang, B. Haran and B. Popov, “*Capacity Fade Study of Lithium
Ion Batteries Cycled at High Discharge Rates*”, *J. Power Source

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-20 Thread Michael Ross via EV

Right the paper is about some of the failure modes of Li ion cells.  How
they degrade in ability to take charge, not whether the negative electrode
spontaneously de-lithiates which is another way of saying self discharge.

I am fine with - if you run the cells improperly the negative electrode SEI
grows and gets clogged by contaminants. Contaminants come from the reactive
nature of the positive electrode when it is delithiated, and there is lots
of study in electrochemistry about that.  Then those reactions take place
the electrolyte is depleted.  Etc., etc.

Still no self discharge.

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 12:11 AM, Paul Dove via EV 
wrote:

> Did actually read it?
>
> That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a
> Li-Ion cell
> > that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> > http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Chief Scientist
> > Proxim Wireless
> >
> > office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> > XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> > www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson
> via EV
> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> > To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> >
> > One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> >
> > While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> > This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> > Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a
> lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same
> conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their
> anti-BMS position.
> >
> > If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism
> is please share it.
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> >> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> >> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >>
> >>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> >> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need
> a BMS.
> >> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> >> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> >> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >>
> >>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> >> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >>
> >>Bill D.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> > http://www.levforum.com
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-20 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

Hi Michael,

From the link you could have gone to this prof’s website,

but here is an easy to use list of all his freely available publications,

he has done a lot of work on applications of rechargeable batteries:

http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/website/pubbooks.html

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water

Chief Scientist

Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
<http://www.cvandewater.info> 

www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 8:06 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Cor, 

There is no author, no date, no publisher, no prior art, and no references.  
Was it in a journal, is the peer review?  Has it been repeated?   Is there a 
more complete copy or a place where it can be purchased? 

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:

David,

Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a Li-Ion 
cell
that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626   Skype: 
cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130   private: 
cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and 
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, 
pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was 
not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Paul Dove via EV

Did actually read it?

That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a 
> Li-Ion cell
> that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> 
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> 
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
> 
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>> 
>>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>> 
>>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>> 
>>Bill D.
>> 
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Michael Ross via EV

I think it is very valuable knowing that a Li ion cell can hold its charge
indefinitely.  Particularly compared to the incumbent competitor - lead
acid cells.  There is a least an implication that the the loses may be of
no consequence after design and manufacturing improvements.  There is no
possibility of achieving this ever with lead acid.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> David,
>
> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of
> self-discharge
> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and
> measure
> the self-discharge?
> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge
> appears to be
> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of
> self-discharge
> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
>
> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any
> self-discharge is as valuable
> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any
> resistance.
> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when
> sizing your wiring and connections.
> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> when designing a battery pack.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
> EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot
> of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion.
> It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> > This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> > "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >
> > All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> > Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a
> BMS.
> > These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> > investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> > systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >
> > I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> > the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Michael Ross via EV

Cor,

There is no author, no date, no publisher, no prior art, and no
references.  Was it in a journal, is the peer review?  Has it been
repeated?   Is there a more complete copy or a place where it can be
purchased?

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> David,
>
> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a
> Li-Ion cell
> that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
> EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot
> of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion.
> It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> > This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> > "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >
> > All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> > Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a
> BMS.
> > These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> > investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> > systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >
> > I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> > the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

David,

Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a Li-Ion 
cell
that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and 
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, 
pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was 
not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Paul Dove via EV

The specify a self discharge rate because people asked for it. All the ones 
I've seen say less than 1%. Well zero is less than 1%

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of 
> self-discharge
> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and 
> measure
> the self-discharge?
> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge appears 
> to be
> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of 
> self-discharge
> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
> 
> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any 
> self-discharge is as valuable
> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any 
> resistance.
> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when sizing 
> your wiring and connections.
> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in 
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> when designing a battery pack.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> 
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> 
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
> 
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>> 
>>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>> 
>>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>> 
>>Bill D.
>> 
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://g

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

David,

Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of 
self-discharge
and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and 
measure
the self-discharge?
I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge appears to 
be
a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of 
self-discharge
is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...

However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any 
self-discharge is as valuable
as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any resistance.
In practice however you better take that resistance into account when sizing 
your wiring and connections.
Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in 
self-discharge between cells) into account
when designing a battery pack.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and 
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, 
pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was 
not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
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http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread David Nelson via EV

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about
the lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries,
however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge
shuttle mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint
of heart, however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for
Lithium-Based Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the
Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published
on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I
say, "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a
lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same
conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their
anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism
is please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also,
> the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to investigate,
> either through the scientific literature or by simply systematically testing
> cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from the
> same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Paul Dove via EV

Then explain how this happens in a Li-Ion battery. What is the self discharge 
mechanism? 

Give me the science!

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> 
>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also, the 
> self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS. These are 
> well-documented facts for all those that care to investigate, either through 
> the scientific literature or by simply systematically testing cells for 
> themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> 
>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from the same 
> unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> 
>Bill D.
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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[EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

2015-06-19 Thread Bill Dube via EV

This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
"anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.


	All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also, 
the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a 
BMS. These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)


	I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from the 
same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.


Bill D.

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