Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (DONE)

[robert winfield via EV]

 Bob,If it really gets to you, your neighbors vehicle idling, i'm not 
suggesting htis as it would be wrong and dont do it,butAuto Exhaust Whistle - 
Jokes, Gags, Pranks - In the Tailpipe Gag! - Auto Whistle | eBay


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On Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:06:27 AM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 It inevitable.  Solar panels on anything that sits in the sun is cost
effective if the power can be used.

Kia adding it to cars:  https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2018=680816

Even if it only charges the 12v battery, it is still 200 Watts incoming.
Even though the 12v battery is always maintained from the HV battery, they
can manage the 12v battery charging just like they do with hybrids.  That
is, only charge from the HV battery to always leave enough room at the top
for a full days free charge from the sun.

And don’t forget my stupid neighbor's son who spends about 3 to 10 hours a
day sitting in his ICE car with the engine running in the driveway so he can
sit there with his friends playing with their smartphones "charging" from
the car.

And these will always be 18% efficieny silicon.  The higher 36% GaAs cells
cost 2000 times more for only double the power and will never come down.

Bob. WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (DONE)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

It inevitable.  Solar panels on anything that sits in the sun is cost
effective if the power can be used.

Kia adding it to cars:  https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2018=680816

Even if it only charges the 12v battery, it is still 200 Watts incoming.
Even though the 12v battery is always maintained from the HV battery, they
can manage the 12v battery charging just like they do with hybrids.  That
is, only charge from the HV battery to always leave enough room at the top
for a full days free charge from the sun.

And don’t forget my stupid neighbor's son who spends about 3 to 10 hours a
day sitting in his ICE car with the engine running in the driveway so he can
sit there with his friends playing with their smartphones "charging" from
the car.

And these will always be 18% efficieny silicon.  The higher 36% GaAs cells
cost 2000 times more for only double the power and will never come down.

Bob. WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

But no stick shift, so it fails the spec requirement.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2018, at 2:31 PM, Lawrence Rhodes  
> wrote:
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:42:12 -0700
> From: Mark Abramowitz 
> To: Lawrence Rhodes , Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
> 
> Yes, I saw the price, and the performance, and the stick shift. It looked 
> practical to me for that purpose (though out of my price range). You don?t 
> think the girls would think it?s cool?
> 
> C?mon dad. It would be a great birthday present. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> - Mark
> 
> The Tesla is faster.  A fraction of the money.  More practical.  The new 
> Tesla Roadster would destroy it in performance at a third the price.  It may 
> look "cool" but in reality it is just some gear heads electric wet dream.  
> Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:42:12 -0700
From: Mark Abramowitz 
To: Lawrence Rhodes , Electric Vehicle
    Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8

Yes, I saw the price, and the performance, and the stick shift. It looked 
practical to me for that purpose (though out of my price range). You don?t 
think the girls would think it?s cool?

C?mon dad. It would be a great birthday present. ;-)



- Mark
The Tesla is faster.  A fraction of the money.  More practical.  The new Tesla 
Roadster would destroy it in performance at a third the price.  It may look 
"cool" but in reality it is just some gear heads electric wet dream.  Lawrence 
Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Yes, I saw the price, and the performance, and the stick shift. It looked 
practical to me for that purpose (though out of my price range). You don’t 
think the girls would think it’s cool?

C’mon dad. It would be a great birthday present. ;-)



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 27, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Did you see the price? Not practical. Lawrence Rhodes
> 
>  From: Mark Abramowitz 
> To: Lawrence Rhodes ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
> List  
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
> 
> Didn’t Bruce just post an article about a converted Corvette that left the 
> stick shift in?!
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 27, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> We live in San Francisco.  Having a vehicle for each driver/task is not 
>> practical mostly because of miniscule parking space/expensive insurance & 
>> cost.  We all need to drive a hundred miles from time to time...or more so 2 
>> Leafs and a 1995 Honda Civic(Cars don't rust here) is what we have. If a 
>> pickup or van was electric we would loose a Leaf or the Civic and get that 
>> depending on budget. I can't get my son to drive the Leaf for anything but 
>> Lyft.  He says the girls think it's cool he can drive a 
>> sticksheeshLawrence Rhodes
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Didn’t Bruce just post an article about a converted Corvette that left the 
stick shift in?!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 27, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> We live in San Francisco.  Having a vehicle for each driver/task is not 
> practical mostly because of miniscule parking space/expensive insurance & 
> cost.  We all need to drive a hundred miles from time to time...or more so 2 
> Leafs and a 1995 Honda Civic(Cars don't rust here) is what we have. If a 
> pickup or van was electric we would loose a Leaf or the Civic and get that 
> depending on budget. I can't get my son to drive the Leaf for anything but 
> Lyft.  He says the girls think it's cool he can drive a 
> sticksheeshLawrence Rhodes
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Did you see the price? Not practical. Lawrence Rhodes


Who buys Corvettes because they're "practical"?

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Did you see the price? Not practical. Lawrence Rhodes

  From: Mark Abramowitz 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  
 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
   
Didn’t Bruce just post an article about a converted Corvette that left the 
stick shift in?!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 27, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> We live in San Francisco.  Having a vehicle for each driver/task is not 
> practical mostly because of miniscule parking space/expensive insurance & 
> cost.  We all need to drive a hundred miles from time to time...or more so 2 
> Leafs and a 1995 Honda Civic(Cars don't rust here) is what we have. If a 
> pickup or van was electric we would loose a Leaf or the Civic and get that 
> depending on budget. I can't get my son to drive the Leaf for anything but 
> Lyft.  He says the girls think it's cool he can drive a 
> sticksheeshLawrence Rhodes
> 
> 
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> 


   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I can't get my son to drive the Leaf for anything but Lyft. He says the girls 
think it's cool he can drive a sticksheesh...


Well, Duh!

My son is the same way. He thinks our Leaf and Prius are lame-o 
geek-mobiles, and so always drives our pickup. He too has TB (Teenage 
Brain disorder).


You have to understand the teenage brain. You should have gotten some 
gas-hog SUV or big pickup truck; then your son would hate them and 
insist on driving something as much different from dad's cars as 
possible... like a Leaf or Prius. :-)


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

We live in San Francisco.  Having a vehicle for each driver/task is not 
practical mostly because of miniscule parking space/expensive insurance & cost. 
 We all need to drive a hundred miles from time to time...or more so 2 Leafs 
and a 1995 Honda Civic(Cars don't rust here) is what we have. If a pickup or 
van was electric we would loose a Leaf or the Civic and get that depending on 
budget. I can't get my son to drive the Leaf for anything but Lyft.  He says 
the girls think it's cool he can drive a sticksheeshLawrence Rhodes

   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Peri Hartman via EV]

With half the population living in urban areas, including suburbs, we're 
talking about a lot of people who don't have room for more than two 
vehicles even if they want more. Even two, though, gives you a much 
better fit than one-for-all.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 26-Oct-18 10:23:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one cost 
more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's hand-me-down  
Geo

Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much 
less

than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via 
EV

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

Most people I know don’t have multiple cars for multiple purposes, 
unless

they are wealthy.

Most do have a “one car fits all”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

On Oct 25, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:


Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big
problem is need for a variety of uses.

What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something
that works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out
to dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the
day, and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella
might be able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people.
The latter two? I doubt it.


You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle 
to

do everything.

But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle 
is

not really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't
really haul anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person 
commuting.


So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more 
closely

optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.

One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for
commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or 
towing

capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Electric bicycles were my main transportation for years. Citicars and 
converted EVs second and a rental ICE if I needed long distance. This 
was before all the current EV options.



On 10/26/2018 12:48 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one 
cost more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's 
hand-me-down  Geo

Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much less
than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.


That's my situation as well. We have one car per driver in the family. 
Each one is different, so we can pick the vehicle best suited to the job 
at hand. A 2013 Leaf (daily driver), a 2001 Prius (long trips), and a 
2010 pickup (towing, hauling).


It doesn't appear to me that this strategy is at all unusual.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one cost more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's hand-me-down  Geo
Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much less
than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.


That's my situation as well. We have one car per driver in the family. 
Each one is different, so we can pick the vehicle best suited to the job 
at hand. A 2013 Leaf (daily driver), a 2001 Prius (long trips), and a 
2010 pickup (towing, hauling).


It doesn't appear to me that this strategy is at all unusual.
--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one cost more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's hand-me-down  Geo
Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much less
than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

Most people I know don’t have multiple cars for multiple purposes, unless
they are wealthy.

Most do have a “one car fits all”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
>> Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big
>> problem is need for a variety of uses.
>>
>> What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something
>> that works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out
>> to dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the
>> day, and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella
>> might be able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people.
>> The latter two? I doubt it.
>
> You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle to
> do everything.
>
> But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle is
> not really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't
> really haul anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person commuting.
>
> So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more closely
> optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.
>
> One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for
> commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or towing
> capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.
>
> --
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

If there was a vehicle that could do it all the Stella vehicles would come 
close...except for towing, and carrying big loads...pretty big but not pickup 
big.  Also their monocoque construction is very strong and they have 5 point 
seatbelts which make them as safe as formula 1.  Lawrence Rhodes

   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[jim--- via EV]

Mark Abramowitz said:
> Most people I know don’t have multiple cars for multiple purposes, unless 
> they are 
> wealthy.

> Most do have a “one car fits all”.

Amen to that.  I really need three cars, but drive one that is not idea for the 
majority of my driving, but required for some of it.  I can assure you that a 
full sized, crew cab 4x4 pickup is NOT the ideal one person commuting car, but 
is required for other stuff...  I could rent (and have a few times) one of the 
three, but the truck as equipped can not be rented.


Jim Walls


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Most people I know don’t have multiple cars for multiple purposes, unless they 
are wealthy.

Most do have a “one car fits all”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
>> Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
>> is need for a variety of uses.
>> 
>> What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
>> works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
>> dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
>> and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
>> able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
>> two? I doubt it.
> 
> You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle to do 
> everything.
> 
> But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle is not 
> really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't really haul 
> anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person commuting.
> 
> So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more closely 
> optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.
> 
> One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for 
> commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or towing 
> capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.
> 
> -- 
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
is need for a variety of uses.

What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
two? I doubt it.


You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle to 
do everything.


But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle is 
not really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't 
really haul anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person commuting.


So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more closely 
optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.


One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for 
commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or 
towing capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The Stella is an impressive car. I did read the specs, though not 
carefully. The fault is my assumption that climbing, say, 1000m would 
take too much energy. In fact, the climbing by itself probably would 
take between 1 and 2kwh. That leaves plenty. Wow !

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 23-Oct-18 10:03:07 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

Peri I doubt you have completely looked at the specs of the Stella 
cars.  They have huge trunks and are touted as "Family Cars" basically 
a small SUV.  They use a 15kw battery which without solar has a 400 
mile range.  So they would charge quickly just on Chademo or CCS.  Just 
because a car is solar doesn't mean you have to only use solar.  Ad to 
that it simply has a very long range and is good for everything  but 
towing.  I think a dead deer would fit in the trunk. It is certainly 
the perfect mad max vehicle for when there is no gas.  This vehicle 
will still be able to go 400 miles after every 10 hours in the sun and 
be able to go 45 mph infinitely while the sun shines. The first Stella 
easily made it up the coast on Route 1 and 101  LA to San Francisco up 
and down all those hills.Lawrence Rhodes



Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:33:59 +
From: "Peri Hartman" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8


What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might 
be

able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
two? I doubt it.

Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make 
arrangements

to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot
of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since
solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Peri I doubt you have completely looked at the specs of the Stella cars.  They 
have huge trunks and are touted as "Family Cars" basically a small SUV.  They 
use a 15kw battery which without solar has a 400 mile range.  So they would 
charge quickly just on Chademo or CCS.  Just because a car is solar doesn't 
mean you have to only use solar.  Ad to that it simply has a very long range 
and is good for everything  but towing.  I think a dead deer would fit in the 
trunk. It is certainly the perfect mad max vehicle for when there is no gas.  
This vehicle will still be able to go 400 miles after every 10 hours in the sun 
and be able to go 45 mph infinitely while the sun shines. The first Stella 
easily made it up the coast on Route 1 and 101  LA to San Francisco up and down 
all those hills.    Lawrence Rhodes


Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:33:59 +
From: "Peri Hartman" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8


What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that 
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to 
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day, 
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be 
able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter 
two? I doubt it.

Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements 
to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot 
of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since 
solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate.


   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

The mid-range (260 miles) Model 3 is indeed available, but it is $45,000.
They count on the $7,500 federal tax break and state incentives to make it
a $35,000 car. The long range Model 3 can currently be bought for about
$49,000 with federal and state incentives then reducing that price. As I am
retired with little earned income the $7,500 federal tax credit is of no
value. I'll still wait for the $35,000 car.
BobK

On Oct 22, 2018 12:59 PM, "paul dove via EV"  wrote:

Last time I checked the midrange model 3 was available for order

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:
>
> My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
> don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.
>
> When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing the
EV
> on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
> docking would be no problem.
> BobK
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's
are
>> not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
>> solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
>> use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
>> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: Alan Arrison 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>>
>> The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have,
never
>> will.
>>
>> This has been proven time and time again.
>>
>> There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
>> conditions and slow speeds.
>>
>> And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.
>>
>> It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>>> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
>>> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
>>> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
>>> car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
>>> Stella Lux include these:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Length
>>>
>>> 178 inches
>>>
>>> Width
>>>
>>> 69 inches
>>>
>>> Height
>>>
>>> 44 inches
>>>
>>> Weight
>>>
>>> 826 pounds
>>>
>>> Battery Capacity
>>>
>>> 15 kWh
>>>
>>> Motor Efficiency
>>>
>>> 97 percent
>>>
>>> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>>>
>>> 621 miles
>>>
>>> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>>>
>>> 683 miles
>>>
>>> Range at night (on battery)
>>>
>>> 403 miles
>>>
>>> Top Speed
>>>
>>> 77 mph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
>>> translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
>>> conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
>>> solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
>>> conditions is
>>> 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
>>> potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
>>> hours.
>>> So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
>>> miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
>>> energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
>>> months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
>>> 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
>>> passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
 The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
 Michael J. Coren

 [image
 https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
 ng
 The Sono Motors Car
 ]

 The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
 everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
 (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we
 call the Sun.

 So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?

 It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
 relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
 that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
 even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they
 have in common?
 They’re
 all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
 panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.

 For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
 equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
 panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

[paul dove via EV]

Last time I checked the midrange model 3 was available for order

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Bobby Keeland via EV  wrote:
> 
> My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
> don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.
> 
> When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing the EV
> on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
> docking would be no problem.
> BobK
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's are
>> not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
>> solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
>> use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
>> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: Alan Arrison 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>> 
>> The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, never
>> will.
>> 
>> This has been proven time and time again.
>> 
>> There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
>> conditions and slow speeds.
>> 
>> And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.
>> 
>> It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.
>> 
>> Al
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>>> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
>>> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
>>> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
>>> car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
>>> Stella Lux include these:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Length
>>> 
>>> 178 inches
>>> 
>>> Width
>>> 
>>> 69 inches
>>> 
>>> Height
>>> 
>>> 44 inches
>>> 
>>> Weight
>>> 
>>> 826 pounds
>>> 
>>> Battery Capacity
>>> 
>>> 15 kWh
>>> 
>>> Motor Efficiency
>>> 
>>> 97 percent
>>> 
>>> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>>> 
>>> 621 miles
>>> 
>>> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>>> 
>>> 683 miles
>>> 
>>> Range at night (on battery)
>>> 
>>> 403 miles
>>> 
>>> Top Speed
>>> 
>>> 77 mph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
>>> translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
>>> conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
>>> solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
>>> conditions is
>>> 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
>>> potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
>>> hours.
>>> So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
>>> miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
>>> energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
>>> months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
>>> 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
>>> passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 
 https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
 The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
 Michael J. Coren
 
 [image
 https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
 ng
 The Sono Motors Car
 ]
 
 The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
 everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
 (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we
 call the Sun.
 
 So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
 
 It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
 relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
 that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
 even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they
 have in common?
 They’re
 all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
 panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
 
 For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
 equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
 panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German
 startup Sono Motors is adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof,
 sides, and rear to give its vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km
 (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile, Dutch startup behind
 LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge itself.” Although
 it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can put down
 deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

I installed four 158 watt solar panels (DM Solar), a charge controller (
Morningstar) and an inverter/charger (Magnum) in the RV some time ago. RV
manufacturers do not leave much space for the coach battery and then they
use a dual purpose battery that is a poor starting battery and a worse deep
cycle battery. I replaced the original coach battery with two huge 255
aHr Lifeline
deep cycle batteries that I put in one of the "basement" compartments. I
believe that there are ways that you can set up an EV to grid system that
would work with a Tesla. The alternative is to just unplug from the Tesla
and run a cable from the trailer mounted solar panels to our charge
controller. Who needs an RV Park?
   I've thought about restoring my 1951 Chevy pickup with an electric
motor, lots of Li-Ion batteries and solar panels on a rack that is over the
bed and the cab. The solar panels will not power the pickup by themselves,
but while parked or when driving down the road the batteries will be
charging. An old pickup is not a great conversation vehicle, but it is a
great looking vehicle. No longer burning gasoline would be great.
BobK


On Oct 22, 2018 11:03 AM, "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
wrote:

This actually makes sense - especially if you have lots of batteries in
the RV as well. I think it would also be possible to use the EV as the
Large Battery for your RV, but Tesla may not allow such a modification.

Cheers, Peter

On 10/22/18 6:47 AM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
> My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
> don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.
>
> When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing the
EV
> on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
> docking would be no problem.
> BobK
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's
are
>> not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
>> solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
>> use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
>> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: Alan Arrison 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>>
>> The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have,
never
>> will.
>>
>> This has been proven time and time again.
>>
>> There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
>> conditions and slow speeds.
>>
>> And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.
>>
>> It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>>> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
>>> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
>>> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
>>> car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
>>> Stella Lux include these:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Length
>>>
>>> 178 inches
>>>
>>> Width
>>>
>>> 69 inches
>>>
>>> Height
>>>
>>> 44 inches
>>>
>>> Weight
>>>
>>> 826 pounds
>>>
>>> Battery Capacity
>>>
>>> 15 kWh
>>>
>>> Motor Efficiency
>>>
>>> 97 percent
>>>
>>> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>>>
>>> 621 miles
>>>
>>> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>>>
>>> 683 miles
>>>
>>> Range at night (on battery)
>>>
>>> 403 miles
>>>
>>> Top Speed
>>>
>>> 77 mph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
>>> translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
>>> conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
>>> solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
>>> conditions is
>>> 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
>>> potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
>>> hours.
>>> So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
>>> miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
>>> energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
>>> months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
>>> 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
>>> passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
 The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
 Michael J. Coren

 [image
 https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
 ng
 The Sono Motors Car
 ]

 The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
 everything on earth. Photosynthesis, 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

This actually makes sense - especially if you have lots of batteries in 
the RV as well. I think it would also be possible to use the EV as the 
Large Battery for your RV, but Tesla may not allow such a modification.


Cheers, Peter

On 10/22/18 6:47 AM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.

When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing the EV
on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
docking would be no problem.
BobK

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:


ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's are
not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, never
will.

This has been proven time and time again.

There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
conditions and slow speeds.

And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.

It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.

Al



On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:

When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
Stella Lux include these:



Length

178 inches

Width

69 inches

Height

44 inches

Weight

826 pounds

Battery Capacity

15 kWh

Motor Efficiency

97 percent

Range on sunny day (Netherlands)

621 miles

Range on sunny day (Australia)

683 miles

Range at night (on battery)

403 miles

Top Speed

77 mph



So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
conditions is
0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
hours.
So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
wrote:


https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
Michael J. Coren

[image
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
ng
The Sono Motors Car
]

The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
(once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we
call the Sun.

So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?

It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they
have in common?
They’re
all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.

For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German
startup Sono Motors is adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof,
sides, and rear to give its vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km
(155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile, Dutch startup behind
LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge itself.” Although
it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can put down
deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000 to
20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.

The Sono Motors Car

Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of
its Vehicle Electrification Group.

Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could
propel a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math
for us.

Michalek says 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.

When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing the EV
on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
docking would be no problem.
BobK

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's are
> not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
> solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
> use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.
>
> Bob
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: Alan Arrison 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>
> The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, never
> will.
>
> This has been proven time and time again.
>
> There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
> conditions and slow speeds.
>
> And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.
>
> It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.
>
> Al
>
>
>
> On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> > When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
> > results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
> > the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
> > car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
> > Stella Lux include these:
> >
> >
> >
> > Length
> >
> > 178 inches
> >
> > Width
> >
> > 69 inches
> >
> > Height
> >
> > 44 inches
> >
> > Weight
> >
> > 826 pounds
> >
> > Battery Capacity
> >
> > 15 kWh
> >
> > Motor Efficiency
> >
> > 97 percent
> >
> > Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
> >
> > 621 miles
> >
> > Range on sunny day (Australia)
> >
> > 683 miles
> >
> > Range at night (on battery)
> >
> > 403 miles
> >
> > Top Speed
> >
> > 77 mph
> >
> >
> >
> > So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
> > translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
> > conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
> > solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
> > conditions is
> > 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
> > potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
> > hours.
> > So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
> > miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
> > energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
> > months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
> > 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
> > passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
> >> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
> >> Michael J. Coren
> >>
> >> [image
> >> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
> >> ng
> >> The Sono Motors Car
> >> ]
> >>
> >> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
> >> everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
> >> (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we
> >> call the Sun.
> >>
> >> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
> >>
> >> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
> >> relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
> >> that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
> >> even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they
> >> have in common?
> >> They’re
> >> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
> >> panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
> >>
> >> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
> >> equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
> >> panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German
> >> startup Sono Motors is adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof,
> >> sides, and rear to give its vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km
> >> (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile, Dutch startup behind
> >> LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge itself.” Although
> >> it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can put down
> >> deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000 to
> >> 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.
> >>
> >> The Sono Motors Car
> >>
> >> Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
> >> mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's are
not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, never
will.

This has been proven time and time again.

There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
conditions and slow speeds.

And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.

It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.

Al



On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
> car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
> Stella Lux include these:
>
>
>
> Length
>
> 178 inches
>
> Width
>
> 69 inches
>
> Height
>
> 44 inches
>
> Weight
>
> 826 pounds
>
> Battery Capacity
>
> 15 kWh
>
> Motor Efficiency
>
> 97 percent
>
> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>
> 621 miles
>
> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>
> 683 miles
>
> Range at night (on battery)
>
> 403 miles
>
> Top Speed
>
> 77 mph
>
>
>
> So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
> translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
> conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
> solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
> conditions is
> 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
> potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
> hours.
> So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
> miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
> energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
> months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
> 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
> passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
>> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
>> Michael J. Coren
>>
>> [image
>> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
>> ng
>> The Sono Motors Car
>> ]
>>
>> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
>> everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
>> (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we
>> call the Sun.
>>
>> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
>>
>> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
>> relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
>> that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
>> even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they
>> have in common?
>> They’re
>> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
>> panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
>>
>> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
>> equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
>> panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German
>> startup Sono Motors is adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof,
>> sides, and rear to give its vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km
>> (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile, Dutch startup behind
>> LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge itself.” Although
>> it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can put down
>> deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000 to
>> 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.
>>
>> The Sono Motors Car
>>
>> Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
>> mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of
>> its Vehicle Electrification Group.
>>
>> Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could
>> propel a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math
>> for us.
>>
>> Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square
>> meter of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar
>> energy available to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it
>> can convert about a quarter of that energy into electricity (although
>> that’s very optimistic), a full site of panels might generate roughly
>> 8 kilowatt hours of energy per day (a best-case scenario with four

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have,
never will.


Except that there are numerous examples of solar-powered vehicles that 
*have* demonstrated substantial range at highway speeds.



There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
conditions and slow speeds.


Efficiency numbers in this range have been independently measured and 
confirmed many times.



It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.


The Solectria Sunrise is a 4-passenger sedan with a demonstrated 
efficiency of 40 wh/mile in several Tour de Sol races. These were done 
on standard roads at posted speeds. It was also crash tested, and passed.


Some of Amory Lovins hypercar prototypes have achieved similar 
efficiencies and crash test results.


Race cars are built with very light high strenth materials and 
techniques. People have survived amazing crashes at very high speeds 
with these designs.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are 
actually doing it. -- Chinese proverb

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga  wrote:

Simple answer I use is that 12 full size home panels can fully charge a
typical EV to the American average 40 miles a day forever.

But it is far mor economical to put those on the roof of your house or
garage than on the car.


That's true... if you have a garage, or own your house. But a great many 
people are renters, and can't install PV on their roofs. If they have a 
car, and have no choice but to park it outside all year, then PV on the 
car is better than nothing.


Also, the 40 mile/day average is just that; the average. Fully half of 
the driving public drive less than that. Even if PV on the car only 
provides half that, it' will still satisfy some fraction of people's 
daily needs.


For most of my 50-year career, I have lived within 10 miles of where I 
worked. Even my early 1970's EVs with only a 40-mile range fully met my 
daily driving needs.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Larry Gales via EV]

The key to dealing with climate change is not only to use cleaner energy
sources, but also to greatly reduce the amount of energy we use.  A 75 fold
reduction in energy use for our transportation would be a huge win and a
major game changer for not only climate change but with resource issues.  Also,
solar PV on the car would be a very convenient additional source of energy
especially on long trips.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 4:17 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> Simple answer I use is that 12 full size home panels can fully charge a
> typical EV to the American average 40 miles a day forever.
>
> But it is far mor economical to put those on the roof of your house or
> garage than on the car.
> bob
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Larry Gales via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> To look at this further, let us consider the solar energy available in the
>> Seattle area (again, the worst in the continental USA) over the year.  The
>> results, in terms of sun-hours/day are:
>>
>>Jan Feb Mar Apr MayJun Jul  Aug
>> SepOct NovDec
>>
>>   0.92   1.652.88 4.045.476.06   6.23   4.98
>> 3.85
>> 2.09   1.150.74
>>
>>
>>
>> Let us assume that we travel 20,000 miles/year (the US average for a 2-car
>> family) which consume about 28,000 kWh of energy/year, when we convert the
>> fuel consumed to kWh.  Let us assume we travel less in the Winter, at
>> about
>> 40 miles/day (at total of 6000 miles for those 5 colder months):
>>
>>
>>
>> ·During the 5 colder months the PV on the car delivers only 20
>> miles/day, so we need an extra 20 miles/day of energy from the utility.
>> Given
>> that the car gets 20 miles/kWh, then for 5 months we need (5*30*20)/20 =
>> 150 kWh that we need to get from the utility.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·But during the remaining 7 months of the year, we get an average
>> of 71 miles/day from the PV array on the car, but since we only travel an
>> average of 67 miles/day, we don’t need any extra energy.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If we add the embedded energy needed to create the solar PV array, where
>> we
>> assume that a 1.5 kW array produces an average of 1500 * 1.2 kWh/year, and
>> at the standard 3.7 payback years for solar PV that comes to 6,660 kWh.
>> Over
>> a 30 year lifetime that comes to 222 kWh/year + 150 kWh/year or 372
>> kWh/year total, *which is 75 times less* energy than what the average
>> family now consumes, yet we travel the same speeds for the same distance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Although the Stella Lux or Stella Vie are not in production they are
>> street
>> legal (at least in Europe) cars and have been making tours around Europe
>> for over a year.  The team is considering developing a production car,
>> named “Lightyear”, which uses most of the same technology.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:34 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
>> > Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
>> > is need for a variety of uses.
>> >
>> > What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
>> > works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
>> > dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
>> > and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
>> > able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
>> > two? I doubt it.
>> >
>> > Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements
>> > to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot
>> > of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since
>> > solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate. That means the car gets
>> > super heavy - like a Tesla - and now the benefits of the Stella are
>> > impossible. This usage, too, could be handled by a rental. But I doubt
>> > most people are willing add two hours to an already long day in order to
>> > use a rental. On top of that, most rental companies don't permit you to
>> > drive on unpaved roads.
>> >
>> > If we, eventually, have autonomous vehicles, perhaps you'll be able to
>> > own a car for your special purpose activities and fetch one for your
>> > daily usage. Then, Stella-like vehicles become a real option, I think.
>> >
>> > Peri
>> >
>> > -- Original Message --
>> > From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
>> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> > Cc: "Lee Hart" 
>> > Sent: 21-Oct-18 2:56:18 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>> >
>> > >Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>> > >>When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
>> > >>results
>> > >>from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the
>> > >>assumption
>> > >>that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are
>> > >>not
>> > >>actually lying.
>> > >
>> > >The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Alan Arrison via EV]

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, 
never will.


This has been proven time and time again.

There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect 
conditions and slow speeds.


And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.

It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.

Al



On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:

When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are not
actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger Stella Lux include these:



Length

178 inches

Width

69 inches

Height

44 inches

Weight

826 pounds

Battery Capacity

15 kWh

Motor Efficiency

97 percent

Range on sunny day (Netherlands)

621 miles

Range on sunny day (Australia)

683 miles

Range at night (on battery)

403 miles

Top Speed

77 mph



So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The solar PV
array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world conditions is
0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun hours.
So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about 60
miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5 passenger Stella
Vie is just as efficient.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:



https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars
October 15, 2018  Michael J. Coren

[image
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.png
The Sono Motors Car
]

The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost everything
on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels (once decomposed
living matter) all derive in some way from the star we call the Sun.

So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?

It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface relative
to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes that cover
thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans, even ultra-light
aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they have in common?
They’re
all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar panels
generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.

For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy equation
is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar panels on their
vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German startup Sono Motors
is
adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof, sides, and rear to give its
vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile,
Dutch startup behind LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge
itself.” Although it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can
put down deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000
to 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.

The Sono Motors Car

Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of its
Vehicle Electrification Group.

Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could
propel
a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math for us.

Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square meter
of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar energy
available
to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it can convert about a
quarter of that energy into electricity (although that’s very optimistic),
a
full site of panels might generate roughly 8 kilowatt hours of energy per
day (a best-case scenario with four square meters of solar panels).

Michalek says that’s enough to drive a car like the comparable Nissan Leaf
about 25 miles. But there are many reasons (clouds, poor panel positioning,
dirt), this number will rarely be reached. As for LightyearOne and its
claims that you’ll never need to charge your car in the future? The odds
are
tough. The maximum conversion rate for cheap silicon cells to turn sunlight
into electricity is just under 33%, and more exotic materials that achieve
44% efficiency are far too expensive for mass production. Without a
revolutionary breakthough in solar panel technology, cars that can recharge
themselves with the sun alone remain fantastical.

Does that mean putting solar panels on cars is always a bad idea? Maybe
not.
A sunny 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Larry Gales via EV]

To look at this further, let us consider the solar energy available in the
Seattle area (again, the worst in the continental USA) over the year.  The
results, in terms of sun-hours/day are:

   Jan Feb Mar Apr MayJun Jul  Aug
SepOct NovDec

  0.92   1.652.88 4.045.476.06   6.23   4.983.85
2.09   1.150.74



Let us assume that we travel 20,000 miles/year (the US average for a 2-car
family) which consume about 28,000 kWh of energy/year, when we convert the
fuel consumed to kWh.  Let us assume we travel less in the Winter, at about
40 miles/day (at total of 6000 miles for those 5 colder months):



·During the 5 colder months the PV on the car delivers only 20
miles/day, so we need an extra 20 miles/day of energy from the utility.  Given
that the car gets 20 miles/kWh, then for 5 months we need (5*30*20)/20 =
150 kWh that we need to get from the utility.



·But during the remaining 7 months of the year, we get an average
of 71 miles/day from the PV array on the car, but since we only travel an
average of 67 miles/day, we don’t need any extra energy.





If we add the embedded energy needed to create the solar PV array, where we
assume that a 1.5 kW array produces an average of 1500 * 1.2 kWh/year, and
at the standard 3.7 payback years for solar PV that comes to 6,660 kWh.  Over
a 30 year lifetime that comes to 222 kWh/year + 150 kWh/year or 372
kWh/year total, *which is 75 times less* energy than what the average
family now consumes, yet we travel the same speeds for the same distance.



Although the Stella Lux or Stella Vie are not in production they are street
legal (at least in Europe) cars and have been making tours around Europe
for over a year.  The team is considering developing a production car,
named “Lightyear”, which uses most of the same technology.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:34 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
> Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
> is need for a variety of uses.
>
> What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
> works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
> dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
> and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
> able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
> two? I doubt it.
>
> Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements
> to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot
> of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since
> solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate. That means the car gets
> super heavy - like a Tesla - and now the benefits of the Stella are
> impossible. This usage, too, could be handled by a rental. But I doubt
> most people are willing add two hours to an already long day in order to
> use a rental. On top of that, most rental companies don't permit you to
> drive on unpaved roads.
>
> If we, eventually, have autonomous vehicles, perhaps you'll be able to
> own a car for your special purpose activities and fetch one for your
> daily usage. Then, Stella-like vehicles become a real option, I think.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Lee Hart" 
> Sent: 21-Oct-18 2:56:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>
> >Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> >>When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
> >>results
> >>from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the
> >>assumption
> >>that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are
> >>not
> >>actually lying.
> >
> >The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly like
> >ICEs. Typical ICEs today weigh a ton or more, and have the aerodynamics
> >of a brick. All those edgy lines, huge grilles, big fat tires, and
> >rough bottom mean it takes lot of horsepower to drag it down the road.
> >
> >The automakers are building EVs the same way. Big, heavy, poor
> >aerodynamics.
> >
> >But there are other ways to do it. Race cars and airplanes are much
> >lighter, and have aerodynamics based on performance rather than
> >styling. Amory Lovins has been championing the "hypercar" concept for
> >decades. The basic idea is that if you halve the weight, and cut the
> >aerodynamic losses in half, it takes 1/4th as much energy to push it
> >down the road. Yet it can be just as strong and safe, by using modern
> >materials and construction techniques.
> >
> >EVs like Stella Lux and Stella Vie demonstrate how successful this
> >strategy can be. When you have a 4-passenger car that weighs 826 lbs
> >and 1/3 the aerodynamic losses, solar power becomes a viable way to
> >power it!
> >
> >-- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what 
Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem 
is need for a variety of uses.


What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that 
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to 
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day, 
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be 
able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter 
two? I doubt it.


Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements 
to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot 
of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since 
solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate. That means the car gets 
super heavy - like a Tesla - and now the benefits of the Stella are 
impossible. This usage, too, could be handled by a rental. But I doubt 
most people are willing add two hours to an already long day in order to 
use a rental. On top of that, most rental companies don't permit you to 
drive on unpaved roads.


If we, eventually, have autonomous vehicles, perhaps you'll be able to 
own a car for your special purpose activities and fetch one for your 
daily usage. Then, Stella-like vehicles become a real option, I think.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 21-Oct-18 2:56:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars


Larry Gales via EV wrote:
When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different 
results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the 
assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are 
not

actually lying.


The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly like 
ICEs. Typical ICEs today weigh a ton or more, and have the aerodynamics 
of a brick. All those edgy lines, huge grilles, big fat tires, and 
rough bottom mean it takes lot of horsepower to drag it down the road.


The automakers are building EVs the same way. Big, heavy, poor 
aerodynamics.


But there are other ways to do it. Race cars and airplanes are much 
lighter, and have aerodynamics based on performance rather than 
styling. Amory Lovins has been championing the "hypercar" concept for 
decades. The basic idea is that if you halve the weight, and cut the 
aerodynamic losses in half, it takes 1/4th as much energy to push it 
down the road. Yet it can be just as strong and safe, by using modern 
materials and construction techniques.


EVs like Stella Lux and Stella Vie demonstrate how successful this 
strategy can be. When you have a 4-passenger car that weighs 826 lbs 
and 1/3 the aerodynamic losses, solar power becomes a viable way to 
power it!


-- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lee Hart via EV]

Larry Gales via EV wrote:

When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are not
actually lying.


The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly like 
ICEs. Typical ICEs today weigh a ton or more, and have the aerodynamics 
of a brick. All those edgy lines, huge grilles, big fat tires, and rough 
bottom mean it takes lot of horsepower to drag it down the road.


The automakers are building EVs the same way. Big, heavy, poor aerodynamics.

But there are other ways to do it. Race cars and airplanes are much 
lighter, and have aerodynamics based on performance rather than styling. 
Amory Lovins has been championing the "hypercar" concept for decades. 
The basic idea is that if you halve the weight, and cut the aerodynamic 
losses in half, it takes 1/4th as much energy to push it down the road. 
Yet it can be just as strong and safe, by using modern materials and 
construction techniques.


EVs like Stella Lux and Stella Vie demonstrate how successful this 
strategy can be. When you have a 4-passenger car that weighs 826 lbs and 
1/3 the aerodynamic losses, solar power becomes a viable way to power it!


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I have been preaching the Stella design for 5 years.  Stella Lux went 932 miles 
on one full charge back in 2015. This is a 4 passenger vehicle.   Nuf said. 
Lawrence Rhodes

   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Larry Gales via EV]

When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are not
actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger Stella Lux include these:



Length

178 inches

Width

69 inches

Height

44 inches

Weight

826 pounds

Battery Capacity

15 kWh

Motor Efficiency

97 percent

Range on sunny day (Netherlands)

621 miles

Range on sunny day (Australia)

683 miles

Range at night (on battery)

403 miles

Top Speed

77 mph



So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The solar PV
array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world conditions is
0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun hours.
So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about 60
miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5 passenger Stella
Vie is just as efficient.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars
> October 15, 2018  Michael J. Coren
>
> [image
> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.png
> The Sono Motors Car
> ]
>
> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost everything
> on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels (once decomposed
> living matter) all derive in some way from the star we call the Sun.
>
> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
>
> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface relative
> to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes that cover
> thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans, even ultra-light
> aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they have in common?
> They’re
> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar panels
> generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
>
> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy equation
> is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar panels on their
> vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German startup Sono Motors
> is
> adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof, sides, and rear to give its
> vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile,
> Dutch startup behind LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge
> itself.” Although it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can
> put down deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000
> to 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.
>
> The Sono Motors Car
>
> Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
> mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of its
> Vehicle Electrification Group.
>
> Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could
> propel
> a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math for us.
>
> Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square meter
> of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar energy
> available
> to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it can convert about a
> quarter of that energy into electricity (although that’s very optimistic),
> a
> full site of panels might generate roughly 8 kilowatt hours of energy per
> day (a best-case scenario with four square meters of solar panels).
>
> Michalek says that’s enough to drive a car like the comparable Nissan Leaf
> about 25 miles. But there are many reasons (clouds, poor panel positioning,
> dirt), this number will rarely be reached. As for LightyearOne and its
> claims that you’ll never need to charge your car in the future? The odds
> are
> tough. The maximum conversion rate for cheap silicon cells to turn sunlight
> into electricity is just under 33%, and more exotic materials that achieve
> 44% efficiency are far too expensive for mass production. Without a
> revolutionary breakthough in solar panel technology, cars that can recharge
> themselves with the sun alone remain fantastical.
>
> Does that mean putting solar panels on cars is always a bad idea? Maybe
> not.
> A sunny day can tack on enough miles to cover the average US commute. But
> Michalek says that’s an expensive way to extend the car’s range. Anyone
> with
> a charging outlet can get renewable energy from the wall for a lot less.
> Sign up for the Quartz Daily Brief email
> Stay updated about 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[robert winfield via EV]

 about 1956, PV was around $600/watt (when I became aware of them)~41 years ago 
PV was around $101/watt (around 1975)at present PV is around $0.25 - $.030/watt 
roughly
30 km out of 250km is 12% _free_ miles as PV prices decrease.
don't complain about _early_ adopters, especially in a list of _early_ 
adopters(inexpensive Li battery packs)(small round cylindrical 18650's and 
2170's)
On Sunday, October 21, 2018, 2:52:46 AM EDT, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars
October 15, 2018  Michael J. Coren

[image  
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.png
The Sono Motors Car
]

The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost everything
on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels (once decomposed
living matter) all derive in some way from the star we call the Sun.

So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?

It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface relative
to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes that cover
thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans, even ultra-light
aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they have in common? They’re
all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar panels
generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.

For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy equation
is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar panels on their
vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German startup Sono Motors is
adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof, sides, and rear to give its
vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile,
Dutch startup behind LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge
itself.” Although it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can
put down deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000
to 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.

The Sono Motors Car

Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of its
Vehicle Electrification Group.

Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could propel
a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math for us.

Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square meter
of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar energy available
to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it can convert about a
quarter of that energy into electricity (although that’s very optimistic), a
full site of panels might generate roughly 8 kilowatt hours of energy per
day (a best-case scenario with four square meters of solar panels).

Michalek says that’s enough to drive a car like the comparable Nissan Leaf
about 25 miles. But there are many reasons (clouds, poor panel positioning,
dirt), this number will rarely be reached. As for LightyearOne and its
claims that you’ll never need to charge your car in the future? The odds are
tough. The maximum conversion rate for cheap silicon cells to turn sunlight
into electricity is just under 33%, and more exotic materials that achieve
44% efficiency are far too expensive for mass production. Without a
revolutionary breakthough in solar panel technology, cars that can recharge
themselves with the sun alone remain fantastical.

Does that mean putting solar panels on cars is always a bad idea? Maybe not.
A sunny day can tack on enough miles to cover the average US commute. But
Michalek says that’s an expensive way to extend the car’s range. Anyone with
a charging outlet can get renewable energy from the wall for a lot less.
Sign up for the Quartz Daily Brief email
Stay updated about Quartz products and events.
[© qz.com]


+
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/driverless-car-hype-gives-way-e-scooter-mania-among-technorati-n919706
Driverless car hype gives way to e-scooter mania among technorati
Oct. 13, 2018  Driverless car hype gives way to e-scooter mania among
technorati ... In a matter of months, electric scooter startups have gone
from tech oddity to global ... Millions of dollars in funding and billions
of dollars in valuations have made scooters the next big thing since the
last big thing ...
https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_28/2491731/180709-bird-scooter-san-francisco-njs-1541_0d7cd3431408077aac647d098c7ba8a7.fit-1240w.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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