subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness"

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some
  text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
  takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming
  isn't relevant to witnessing.
 
 Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori  
 Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is  
 mis- or over-interpreting this?

Actually I was just reading the 3 books by him, and I am tempted to
reply: 'Yes, certainly' These books, certainly a good read, have some
rather wild and far-out stories which remind me of Castaneda.Certainly
interesting, but the thought came to my mind, how authentic they
actually are. You know it could all be made up, just integrating a lot
of material from Tantrism. But even if its not made up, or poetically
enlarged, its all the story-telling of some Sadhu, with extra-ordinary
claims. 

So its all second or third-hand account.

When I was at the 2001 Kumbh, some smoking Baba showed me a fotograph
of himself hoovering over the ground his head near the ceiling. I'm
quite sure it was a fake, looked like the TM Flying pictures. These
Sadhus tell a lot of stories. It sin't rare at all to run over people
who are claimed to be several hundred years old. (I met one 2004). But
according to Ramana Siddhis or Nirvikalpa Samadhi are not a
prerequiste to enlightenment the 'natural state'. Also Aurobindo says
that he never went into Nirvikalpa.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread hugheshugo

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
  jpgillam@ wrote:
   --- jim_flanegin wrote:
--- Rick Archer wrote:

 Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
 things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.

That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- 
seeing 
things clearly. Plain and simple.
 
 This is very much in line with the Buddhist approach
 to enlightenment.  One definition I've heard from
 Buddhist teachers of the state is, Enlightenment is 
 perception without mental modification.
 
 *Any* mental modification. I think that one of the
 things that rings false in some people's reported
 experiences of enlightenment is that they attempt
 to make the experiences fit into the descriptions
 of such experiences they have been fed by their
 tradition. They *color* the stories of their own
 personal experiences in such a way that they seem
 to be more in line with what other members of the
 organization were told about what such experiences
 should be like. Or -- another common phenomenon --
 they describe their experiences such that it appears
 they fall into one of the pat descriptions of *stages*
 of enlightenment -- CC, GC, UC, BC, or whatever the
 various flavors of experiences are labeled by their
 tradition.
 
 That's one reason I find reports such as Jim's 
 valuable. He rarely, if ever, tries to do this.
 He just talks about what he experiences, without
 trying to color it or define it in any way *as*
 anything; they're just his stories of what is,
 for him.
 
   To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
   hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things 
   as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. 
   
   Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
   seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
   preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.
 
 Preconceptions are always just that -- pre-conceptions.
 They're what one expects the baby to look like and
 be like before any actual screwing has taken place. :-)
 
 When the baby actually *is* conceived and pops out,
 it doesn't necessarily look like or act like what
 was expected. And that's Ok. But some parents have
 a tendency to try to *make* it into what they expected.
 The kid's playing in the sandbox, clearly blissed out
 drawing in the sand, enjoying being an artist, and
 the parents are already planning its career as a 
 lawyer, because they were told that all enlightenment
 babies are lawyers.  :-)  :-)  :-)
 
 Back in Fiuggi, I knew about half a dozen folks who
 were having flashes of awakening. At first they were 
 quite happy describing them *as they were*, as 24/7
 transcendence, along with whatever else was going on
 in the foreground of life. Then Maharishi gave a
 lecture in which he suggested that one of the 
 qualities of CC was X. Within days, all of these
 people were talking about X. No one had ever 
 mentioned X before, or seemingly even thought 
 about X before, but the moment it was an *expected*
 component of CC, they added it to their stories of
 their own personal experiences.
 
 In other words, in my opinion, not being stabilized
 in their experience, they were attempting to *color*
 it and *make them into* what such experiences were
 supposed to be like. What was obvious from my 
 point of view was that the joy had gone out of their
 stories. Before this event, when these people had
 been talking about what was for them, you could
 *feel* the energy behind their words, the sense of
 newness and excitement that they were feeling. The
 moment they switched to telling stories about what
 they were supposed to be experiencing, all of 
 that joy went out of the words. It was just people
 telling stories that had been told to them.


It's interesting to hear that the power of persuasion might be at 
work here, as I had a series of experiences early on in my career 
that showed me a text book step-by-step evolution, clearly deliniated 
states of higher awareness from cc all the way to unity, it was 
amazingly convincing and very obviously a real physical state my 
brain was slipping into. But I had read a book about TM and asked 
many questions on courses. Can our expectations (not that I felt I 
was having any, I've always felt very innocent with the technique) 
influence the states this easily? This would be a fascinating area of 
study I think.

What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the 
veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have 
imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
the time was Darth, as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
  hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things 
  as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. 
  
  Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
  seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
  preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.
 
 Isn't choiceless awareness Krishnamurti's version of this?

Yes, a beautiful expression - and a clue to non-doership as well.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the 
 veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have 
 imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
 the time was Darth, as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
 course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states.

I once met a man in an esoteric shop, who saw a mantra graphical in
his meditation, and drew it to me. It was the Ganesha bija. He had
known nothing about Hinduism, Ganesha or Sanskrit. These things are
possible.

Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. Again he had
never seen a picture of him, had nothing to do with Hinduism, and only
recognized him when he saw the picture later in a Sai Baba center
(while he was searching - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.) 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It's interesting to hear that the power of persuasion might 
 be at work here, as I had a series of experiences early on 
 in my career that showed me a text book step-by-step 
 evolution, clearly deliniated states of higher awareness 
 from cc all the way to unity, it was amazingly convincing 
 and very obviously a real physical state my brain was 
 slipping into. But I had read a book about TM and asked 
 many questions on courses. Can our expectations (not that 
 I felt I was having any, I've always felt very innocent 
 with the technique) influence the states this easily? 
 This would be a fascinating area of study I think.

I agree. I don't think there is any question that
what one has grown up with philosophically colors
and influences one's interpretation of one's own
spiritual experiences. Just look at the cross-
cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
or the beings *they* expect to see.

I consider it possible (but not a given) that the
Navajo having a vision in his hogan and the monk in
his monastery might be having the same experience.
But how they *interpret* that experience afterwards
is going to be in terms of how they were *taught* to 
interpret such experiences.

 What really impressed me about the teachings is an 
 experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and 
 definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd 
 tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
 the time was Darth...  :-)

LOL.

 ...as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
 course and was told we could actually hear it in 
 certain states.

But was what you heard the Veda, or some undiffer-
entiated cosmic white noise associated with a 
particular state of attention? Would it be possible
that someone used to choral singing in churches could
have experienced the same thing and heard the heavenly 
choir or that a monk from Lhasa could have heard the
same thing and heard something that appeared to them 
to be in the Tibetan language?

I don't have any answers for these questions, BTW.
I'm just fascinated by this phenomenon.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. 
 Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to 
 do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the 
 picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching 
 - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.)

Not to dispute this person's experience but to tell
a funny story that may or may not relate to it, a
fellow who had just gotten involved with the Rama 
trip told a story about meeting Rama in a dream 
before he met him in the physical. The dream had
impressed him enough that he wrote it down in his
Journal, years earlier. So he met the Rama guy,
decided immediately that this was the guy he'd
seen in his dream, and signed up to study with him.

Then, months later, he discovered his old Journals
and found what he had actually written at the time
about the guy in his dream -- he was a short Asian 
guy with long, straight hair. Rama was 6 foot 4, 
was clearly Western, and had fairly short curly hair.
The guy, to his credit, had himself a good laugh at
himself at that point and just kept on keepin' on.

What I think happens sometimes is that we have 
experiences in other planes of existence that have
*no* mapping to the plane of existence of our 
normal waking state. The realities are so differ-
ent that there is simply no *counterpart* in our
reality for the things we experienced in the alter-
nate reality. So the mind does its best to map
the experiences of the alternate reality to the
reality of the waking state. And sometimes what
happens is that we wind up mapping the vibe of
the experience, not the actual details of the
experience. That is, we encounter something or
someone in our waking state reality whose vibe
reminds us of the vibe that part of us remembers
from the alternate reality, and we merge the two
in our minds.

It's just a theory, but one which I've had to deal
with often when trying to come up with some way
to write about experiences I've had for which there 
is simply is no analogue in the thing we call 
everyday reality.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just look at the cross-
 cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
 Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
 visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
 Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
 don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
 expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
 or the beings *they* expect to see.

It's an interesting question, but I think one should split it into two
parts.
1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about and expect.
2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen influenced by
expectation and cultural background

For 1) the expectation and background should have been there *before*
the experience.
For 2) it would be sufficient that a certain cultural explanation
comes along right *after* the experience - and is matched to the vibe
of it as you suggested.

For example, I seem to recall that the description of Bernadette's
vision at Lourdes (I think it was her) seemed to equally or more
precisely match a description of Lakshmi or some waternymph, because
she was standing in water, I think inside a flower, a rose (Lotus?),
something very untypical for Christians, but was interpereted with the
necessary clues as an apparition of Mary, and is seen as a Christian
holy site. It clearly didn't match 1) as the Christian background
couldn't have suggested the imagery.

 
 I consider it possible (but not a given) that the
 Navajo having a vision in his hogan and the monk in
 his monastery might be having the same experience.
 But how they *interpret* that experience afterwards
 is going to be in terms of how they were *taught* to 
 interpret such experiences.
 
  What really impressed me about the teachings is an 
  experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and 
  definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd 
  tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
  the time was Darth...  :-)
 
 LOL.
 
  ...as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
  course and was told we could actually hear it in 
  certain states.
 
 But was what you heard the Veda, or some undiffer-
 entiated cosmic white noise associated with a 
 particular state of attention? Would it be possible
 that someone used to choral singing in churches could
 have experienced the same thing and heard the heavenly 
 choir or that a monk from Lhasa could have heard the
 same thing and heard something that appeared to them 
 to be in the Tibetan language?
 
 I don't have any answers for these questions, BTW.
 I'm just fascinated by this phenomenon.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. 
  Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to 
  do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the 
  picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching 
  - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.)
 
 Not to dispute this person's experience but to tell
 a funny story that may or may not relate to it, a
 fellow who had just gotten involved with the Rama 
 trip told a story about meeting Rama in a dream 
 before he met him in the physical. The dream had
 impressed him enough that he wrote it down in his
 Journal, years earlier. So he met the Rama guy,
 decided immediately that this was the guy he'd
 seen in his dream, and signed up to study with him.
 
 Then, months later, he discovered his old Journals
 and found what he had actually written at the time
 about the guy in his dream -- he was a short Asian 
 guy with long, straight hair. Rama was 6 foot 4, 
 was clearly Western, and had fairly short curly hair.
 The guy, to his credit, had himself a good laugh at
 himself at that point and just kept on keepin' on.
 
 What I think happens sometimes is that we have 
 experiences in other planes of existence that have
 *no* mapping to the plane of existence of our 
 normal waking state. The realities are so differ-
 ent that there is simply no *counterpart* in our
 reality for the things we experienced in the alter-
 nate reality. So the mind does its best to map
 the experiences of the alternate reality to the
 reality of the waking state. And sometimes what
 happens is that we wind up mapping the vibe of
 the experience, not the actual details of the
 experience. That is, we encounter something or
 someone in our waking state reality whose vibe
 reminds us of the vibe that part of us remembers
 from the alternate reality, and we merge the two
 in our minds.
 
 It's just a theory, but one which I've had to deal
 with often when trying to come up with some way
 to write about experiences I've had for which there 
 is simply is no analogue in the thing we call 
 everyday reality.

That's surely an interesting theory, and yes I had already thought
along similar lines. Sure, something is 'matched' with something else.
There is also the now famous story of Papaji, who says a Sadhu with
the appearance of Ramana came to his doorstep to invite him to see
Ramana. When he went to see him, he realized that this is the very
same man who had invited him, and he accused him to be a cheater,
because he could have answered his questions then and there, instead
of directing him to his 'Guru', which was obviously himself.
 No matter what, the guy got directed, and obviously in a very
fruitful way, because it let to his liberation. It really doesn't
matter anymore, if this appearance was really Ramana (there was also
the aditional element of giving him the address) or if he was just
matching him to be so later. Maybe it was a Sadhu with the Ramana vibe.

If you look at it as a whole, then both the vision and the mapping of
it are both part of the same process, which -acc. to my interpretation
 of course - where just 'meant to be'.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Just look at the cross-
  cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
  Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
  visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
  Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
  don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
  expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
  or the beings *they* expect to see.
 
 It's an interesting question, but I think one should split 
 it into two parts.
 1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about 
 and expect.
 2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen 
 influenced by expectation and cultural background

In my opinion, it's an irrelevant distinction. The
experience itself often happens in an alternate
reality. The description of it happens afterwards.

In your #1 above, what they see is how they 
describe what they saw after the fact, in the 
waking state. In your #2 above, how they interpret 
the experience is also a description, also done 
from the waking state, after the fact. The only 
thing that is relevant to the actual experience 
is the actual experience.

In other words, the only way one could get a 
real-time description of an experience of an
alternate reality is if the person was somehow
relating it *in* real time, for example, talk-
ing into a tape recorder while it was going on.
But if they were doing that, and able to handle
the talking into a tape recorder (very much a
normal waking-state reality type of activity) 
are they really fully experiencing the alternate
reality?


 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Just look at the cross-
   cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
   Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
   visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
   Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
   don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
   expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
   or the beings *they* expect to see.
  
  It's an interesting question, but I think one should split 
  it into two parts.
  1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about 
  and expect.
  2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen 
  influenced by expectation and cultural background
 
 In my opinion, it's an irrelevant distinction. 

Hm, I don't think it would be irrelevant, but I agree that it would be
hard to separate the two.

 The
 experience itself often happens in an alternate
 reality. The description of it happens afterwards.

Sure. But in case of visions, there are clear clues in memory. Memory
obviously seems to work. Like this man saw a face of a man with a
turban. He didn't just interpret the turban to be there later on. I
guess its an accurate memory. Or Bernadette saw the Lady in a pond.
She didn't just interpret the pond to be there later on, her memory I
think could be taken to be accurate. And there were no cultural clues
for her to manufacture this later on.

 In your #1 above, what they see is how they 
 describe what they saw after the fact, in the 
 waking state. 

I think they were not in Nirvikalpa Samadhi, so there were visual 
perceptions in that higher state that could be remembered.

 In your #2 above, how they interpret 
 the experience is also a description, also done 
 from the waking state, after the fact. 

I think the distinction here is between visual impression and the
memory thereof. The visual impression is during the experience, the
memory of course after, the interpretation of it still later. Its like
with dreams. We still have memories of dreams, even when we are awake.
They may be interpreted, but they are still visual memories.

 The only 
 thing that is relevant to the actual experience 
 is the actual experience.

Not quite, because the effect of the experience is very often still
felt after, and carried across into the waking state. And that is how
it's meant to be.

 In other words, the only way one could get a 
 real-time description of an experience of an
 alternate reality is if the person was somehow
 relating it *in* real time, for example, talk-
 ing into a tape recorder while it was going on.
 But if they were doing that, and able to handle
 the talking into a tape recorder (very much a
 normal waking-state reality type of activity) 
 are they really fully experiencing the alternate
 reality?

In some cases this is clearly possible. Its like automatic writing.
Just in most cases one doesn't know that one is going to have such an
experience. Anyway, usually people are overwhelmed after such
experiences and are searching for clues, and usually such clues come.

There is an interesting interpretation of St Pauls experience of
Christ by Ramana.According to Ramana Paulus had an experience of pure
Being. When he started to come to his normal state, slowly, the firts
thought he had was of Christ, as this was always formost in his mind,
as he persecuted him. Therefore he interpreted the experience to be
that of Christ, and that is, well how Christianity came about. ;-)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
 
  Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
  I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
  he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
  TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
  would leap at it, and so on.
 
 are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened
 state itself?

I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems
easy and simple to him, could that sense have been
what misled him to think it would be easy and simple
for him to convince most everyone in the world to take
up TM?


 
 Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is 
 mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, 
 about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple 
in 
 concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's 
standpoint.
 
 On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- authfriend wrote:

 Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
 I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
 he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
 TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
 would leap at it, and so on.

It's extremely common for entrepreneurs to expect the 
world to lap up whatever new product or service 
the inventor is offering. Because this behavior is so 
widespread, I suspect Maharishi's naivete is more a 
function of his reclusive background and the 
entrepreneur's tendency to expect the moon. In
other words, I don't attribute it to his easy
and simple awareness per se.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- Vaj wrote:

 dying is easier than I thought :-)

Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
 wrote:
 snip
  Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on 
it. 
  No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such 
a 
  state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are 
no 
  longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there 
is 
  little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the 
  course of daily life as being useful.
  
  Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed 
them 
  by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away 
  for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me 
a 
  much larger raise than what I was seeking. 
  
  But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry 
for 
  him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things 
  that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily
  available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny 
  example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we 
  are awake.
 
 Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
 I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
 he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
 TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
 would leap at it, and so on.


There's a mainstream article that I recently read online that insists 
that most people aren't happy because being happy is hard and most 
people are to lazy to do what it takes. Ironically, the article 
describes happy people as basically behaving according to their 
dharma and gives examples of athletes, artists, etc. To me this 
misses the point but obviously the writer wasn't happy or he/she 
wouldn't have said things the way they did.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
 
  Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
  I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
  he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
  TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
  would leap at it, and so on.
 
 are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened 
state 
 itself?
 
 Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is 
 mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, 
 about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple 
in 
 concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's 
standpoint.
 
 On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple.


TM itself is easy, by definition. Scheduling time to do it and 
dealing with possible issues due to its practice may not be.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
  
   Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
   I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
   he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
   TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
   would leap at it, and so on.
  
  are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened
  state itself?
 
 I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems
 easy and simple to him, could that sense have been
 what misled him to think it would be easy and simple
 for him to convince most everyone in the world to take
 up TM?

Personally I think it was several elements that led him to believe 
and proclaim such things:
1. He saw a need for the world that could be met by his capability, 
to essentially reinvent meditation as something practical for the 
householder.
2. As with any endeavor that speaks to our heart, he wanted as many 
as possible to take it up.
3. Since the technique is easy to learn and practice he saw it as 
easily accepted.
4. His vision was to benefit the whole world, not a subset of it.

As to whether he misjudged the difficulty of the task, I doubt it. 
The goal was initially to spread TM to one percent of the world's 
population, because that is what he thought would enlighten, or 
awaken, the world. 

As the task progressed, so did the dynamics; the interplay between 
the silence being awakened and brought into the world, by all our 
tiny little meditating brains. So his formulas changed, as the world 
changed.

Perhaps your question is whether or not he failed in his mission to 
enlighten the world. That I cannot answer. The only thing I know for 
certain is that he brought enlightenment to the world. What the 
world chooses to do with it is the world's business, far more than 
it is mine.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- authfriend wrote:
 
  Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
  I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
  he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
  TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
  would leap at it, and so on.
 
 It's extremely common for entrepreneurs to expect the 
 world to lap up whatever new product or service 
 the inventor is offering. Because this behavior is so 
 widespread, I suspect Maharishi's naivete is more a 
 function of his reclusive background and the 
 entrepreneur's tendency to expect the moon. In
 other words, I don't attribute it to his easy
 and simple awareness per se.


The best writers/singers/whatevers are often not the most popular. Of 
course, if one defines best in terms of most popular, that's not 
the case.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread Vaj



On Mar 3, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote:  dying is easier than I thought :-)  Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday. All the better reason to practice dying now :-).





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
   
   
Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
would leap at it, and so on.
   
   are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened
   state itself?
  
  I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems
  easy and simple to him, could that sense have been
  what misled him to think it would be easy and simple
  for him to convince most everyone in the world to take
  up TM?
 
 Personally I think it was several elements that led him to believe 
 and proclaim such things:
 1. He saw a need for the world that could be met by his capability, 
 to essentially reinvent meditation as something practical for the 
 householder.
 2. As with any endeavor that speaks to our heart, he wanted as many 
 as possible to take it up.
 3. Since the technique is easy to learn and practice he saw it as 
 easily accepted.
 4. His vision was to benefit the whole world, not a subset of it.
 
 As to whether he misjudged the difficulty of the task, I doubt it. 
 The goal was initially to spread TM to one percent of the world's 
 population, because that is what he thought would enlighten, or 
 awaken, the world. 
 
 As the task progressed, so did the dynamics; the interplay between 
 the silence being awakened and brought into the world, by all our 
 tiny little meditating brains. So his formulas changed, as the 
 world changed.
 
 Perhaps your question is whether or not he failed in his mission to 
 enlighten the world.

No, I was simply wondering whether the easy and simple
sense could be misleading.

Whether or not in retrospect some time hence it will be
seen that MMY succeeded in his mission, it does seem
clear that he underestimated the difficulty of the task,
at least from the way he talked about it.  Maybe he
knew all along it wasn't going to be as easy as he made
it sound.

So I guess that's another question: Did he or didn't
he know how tough it was going to be?

And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
*when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
easy and simple sense applies on some level other
than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
think it applies to achieving the goal?

*Action* in enlightenment is presumably effortless,
in other words, but that doesn't necessarily mean
that a *given* course of action is going to easily
reach the goal.

I suppose it goes back to the question of whether
what the enlightened person thinks is the goal is
the same as the goal nature has in mind.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- Vaj wrote:
 
 Gillam wrote:
 
  --- Vaj wrote:
 
  dying is easier than I thought :-)
 
  Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday.
 
 All the better reason to practice dying now :-).

I've pursued enlightenment in hopes it would make life 
easier. Funny that its ultimate payoff may be to make 
death easier.

Too bad I'm not allowed to give TM intro lectures anymore. 
I could have added that benefit.

P.S.  When I asked my sister what benefits she was noticing 
after doing TM for three months, she said, Well, my death 
wish isn't as strong as it used to be.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- Vaj wrote:

 In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher,  
 an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was  
 then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my  
 first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment

So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims 
of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- Vaj wrote:
 
  In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old 
  TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin 
  Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment 
  in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at 
  debunking a claim of enlightenment
 
 So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims 
 of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline.

Who ya gonna call?  BodhiBusters.

:-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis

judy writes: snipped
And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
*when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
easy and simple sense applies on some level other
than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
think it applies to achieving the goal?

TomT:
The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has
the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears
that an awake one has no desires. The full appreceation of the thought
includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the
outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation.
No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do
what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-03 Thread Vaj

On Mar 3, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote: In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline. You know after I wrote that I realized debunking was probably a bad word.My friends had invited me along simply because they wanted me there in case he tried to pull anything. So I really went along simply as a friend and really, as an observer. However once we were there and started talking to Robin a certain feeling started to develop that was unmistakeable. It wasn't until the very end, spontaneously, I just did it. Still don't think he knew what happened, but for all of us there, it was sufficient. Quite honestly this type of thing is really uncharacteristic of me, I'm not typically one for barnstorming zen tactics. But for my friends it was like being lifted from a curse and we all felt better just having a clear perspective on Robin Woodsworth Carlsen.Honestly I think claims of enlightenment debunk themselves.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 So I guess that's another question: Did he or didn't
 he know how tough it was going to be?
 
 And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
 enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
 *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
 easy and simple sense applies on some level other
 than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
 that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
 think it applies to achieving the goal?
 
 *Action* in enlightenment is presumably effortless,
 in other words, but that doesn't necessarily mean
 that a *given* course of action is going to easily
 reach the goal.
 
 I suppose it goes back to the question of whether
 what the enlightened person thinks is the goal is
 the same as the goal nature has in mind.

I'd say that overall, life after awakening is not as fractured and 
fractious as it was before, so there is more a sense of ease and 
confidence that desires will be satisfied, one way or the other. The 
rigidity of the unawakened mind is an indication that it is 
unsatisfied and so must achieve specific things in very specific 
ways in order to meet its self-defined criteria for satisfaction.

The awakened mind on the other hand, has paradoxically many more 
resources at its disposal, and although there isn't the 'make it or 
break it' mentality applied to achieving desires, due to the self-
sufficent nature of the mind, desires are more often achieved than 
not.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- tom traynor wrote:

 What ever they attempt is easy and
 simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.

So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- tom traynor wrote:
 
  What ever they attempt is easy and
  simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
 
 So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
 acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
 his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
 public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
 certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
 it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
 all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
 plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.

I don't think the first part of this last sentence
necessarily implies the second part.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- tom traynor wrote:
  
   What ever they attempt is easy and
   simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
  
  So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
  acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
  his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
  public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
  certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
  it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
  all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
  plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
 
 I don't think the first part of this last sentence
 necessarily implies the second part.

Neither the second part of the first sentence.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 judy writes: snipped
 And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
 enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
 *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
 easy and simple sense applies on some level other
 than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
 that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
 think it applies to achieving the goal?
 
 TomT:
 The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
 comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
 simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
 in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
 since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
 apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has
 the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
 awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears
 that an awake one has no desires. 

I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to
this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat
answers. 

Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to
see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds
of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing
same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell
a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-called
channeler.

Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
form of severe mental masturbation.

What ever happened to meditate and act? 

Anonyff







The full appreceation of the thought
 includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
 knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the
 outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation.
 No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do
 what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception 
to
 this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
 life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of 
pat
 answers. 
 
snip

That's kind of like taking exception to the fact that out of six 
billion humans on this planet, if they were asked to generally 
describe themselves, most would include in their description that 
they had two arms and two legs...

Also, keep in mind that Tom is just talking about the *inner* state 
of the awakened person. As we have read, heard, quoted and thought 
about, at least a zillion times, from the Gita, it says the state of 
consciousness of a person can't be determined by their outside 
actions.

Yep, still true. 

Also, from waking state, or non-awakened state, there is no way to 
intellectually `get' this sense of true equanimity that Tom 
describes. It can only be understood as mood-making from waking 
state. The mind is not permanently satisfied if we are not Awake. 
Therefore the only way it understands equanimity is to assume a 
false state of evenness, because it isn't settled. The mind in 
Unawake state is still at odds with itself.

So Tom isn't talking about external actions or fake evenness, he's 
just stating the obvious about being Awake. Nothing more than ever 
changing perfect coordination between the person and their ever 
changing environment. 
 
 Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as 
there
 are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
 tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
 anyone/everyone else

Yep, diversity continues, with no attempt at stopping it, 
categorizing it, slowing it down or thinking about it too much.

 and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
 form of severe mental masturbation.
 
 What ever happened to meditate and act? 

I give up, what?
 
 Anonyff
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 The full appreceation of the thought
  includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
  knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation 
of the
  outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as 
appreciation.
  No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the 
thought, do
  what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T
 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Personally, and in all seriousness, I still believe it is ALL 
conjecture and overall, I'm sorry I spent so much of my life 
believing in this stuff.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote:
 
  
  I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception 
 to
  this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
  life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds 
of 
 pat
  answers. 
  
 snip
 
 That's kind of like taking exception to the fact that out of six 
 billion humans on this planet, if they were asked to generally 
 describe themselves, most would include in their description that 
 they had two arms and two legs...
 

 Also, keep in mind that Tom is just talking about the *inner* state 
 of the awakened person. As we have read, heard, quoted and thought 
 about, at least a zillion times, from the Gita, it says the state 
of 
 consciousness of a person can't be determined by their outside 
 actions.
 
 Yep, still true. 
 
 Also, from waking state, or non-awakened state, there is no way to 
 intellectually `get' this sense of true equanimity that Tom 
 describes. It can only be understood as mood-making from waking 
 state. The mind is not permanently satisfied if we are not Awake. 
 Therefore the only way it understands equanimity is to assume a 
 false state of evenness, because it isn't settled. The mind in 
 Unawake state is still at odds with itself.
 
 So Tom isn't talking about external actions or fake evenness, he's 
 just stating the obvious about being Awake. Nothing more than ever 
 changing perfect coordination between the person and their ever 
 changing environment. 
  
  Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as 
 there
  are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
  tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
  anyone/everyone else
 
 Yep, diversity continues, with no attempt at stopping it, 
 categorizing it, slowing it down or thinking about it too much.
 
  and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
  form of severe mental masturbation.
  
  What ever happened to meditate and act? 
 
 I give up, what?
  
  Anonyff
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The full appreceation of the thought
   includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
   knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation 
 of the
   outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as 
 appreciation.
   No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the 
 thought, do
   what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T
  
 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread a_non_moose_ff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
 tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote:
 
  judy writes: snipped
  And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
  enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
  *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
  easy and simple sense applies on some level other
  than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
  that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
  think it applies to achieving the goal?
  
  TomT:
  The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
  comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
  simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
  in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
  since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
  apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has
  the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
  awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears
  that an awake one has no desires. 
 
 I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to
 this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
 life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat
 answers. 
 
 Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to
 see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds
 of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing
 same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell
 a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-called
 channeler.
 
 Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
 are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
 tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
 anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
 form of severe mental masturbation.
 
 What ever happened to meditate and act? 
 
 Anonyff

Yes Anonyff there is some sense of limitation here just as you describe. Half 
digested Tolle 
sprinkled with some Byron Katy and some Ramana on the side served fast food 
style. 
Repeat as necessary.

It's givving me heartburn, it sure ain't shaktipat.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
  tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
  tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote:
  
   judy writes: snipped
   And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
   enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
   *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
   easy and simple sense applies on some level other
   than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
   that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
   think it applies to achieving the goal?
   
   TomT:
   The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What 
ever
   comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is 
easy and
   simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One 
is only
   in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a 
failure
   since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do 
seemed
   apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake 
one has
   the entire range of the act in the relative world available in 
their
   awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it 
appears
   that an awake one has no desires. 
  
  I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great 
exception to
  this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
  life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds 
of pat
  answers. 
  
  Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running 
first to
  see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the 
kinds
  of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the 
f***ing
  same in the way they were talking about things. You could always 
tell
  a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-
called
  channeler.
  
  Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as 
there
  are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
  tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously 
as
  anyone/everyone else and that all this constant 
intellectualizing is a
  form of severe mental masturbation.
  
  What ever happened to meditate and act? 
  
  Anonyff
 
 Yes Anonyff there is some sense of limitation here just as you 
describe. Half digested Tolle 
 sprinkled with some Byron Katy and some Ramana on the side served 
fast food style. 
 Repeat as necessary.
 
 It's givving me heartburn, it sure ain't shaktipat.

Ha-Ha-HA! Yeah, believe what HE says! All is Lost! Kali's lap dog 
returns!!! Waking State Incarnate! 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 judy writes: snipped
 And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
 enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
 *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
 easy and simple sense applies on some level other
 than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
 that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
 think it applies to achieving the goal?
 
 TomT:
 The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
 comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
 simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
 in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
 since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
 apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one 
has
 the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
 awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it 
appears
 that an awake one has no desires. The full appreceation of the 
thought
 includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
 knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of 
the
 outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as 
appreciation.
 No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do
 what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T


Of course, is it always obvious, even to the awake one, what the next 
thing to do is? MMY, when he first made the statement Damn 
Democracy, sounded taken aback at his own words.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- tom traynor wrote:
 
  What ever they attempt is easy and
  simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
 
 So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
 acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
 his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
 public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
 certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
 it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
 all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
 plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.


Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just 
that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
jpgillam@ 
  wrote:
  
   --- tom traynor wrote:
   
What ever they attempt is easy and
simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
   
   So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
   acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
   his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
   public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
   certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
   it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
   all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
   plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
  
  I don't think the first part of this last sentence
  necessarily implies the second part.
 
 The pundit project was successful - it was the focal pt for raising
 well over $200 million over the yrs.  Why bother delivering the
 product if you can keep raising capital over and over with the same
 business plan?


The project was only partially successful. Thousands of pundits were 
trained, and millions of dollars worth of buildings built. Various 
issues created a situatino where the final goal was never realized.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- sparaig wrote:

 --- Gillam wrote:
 
  --- tom traynor wrote:
  
   What ever they attempt is easy and
   simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
  
  So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
  acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
  his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
  public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
  certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
  it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
  all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
  plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
 
 Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just 
 that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks.

What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs 
want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, 
without attachment to the result. 

I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas 
to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching 
new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior 
to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened.
But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's 
thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- 
Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism 
sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the 
idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- sparaig wrote:
 
  --- Gillam wrote:
  
   --- tom traynor wrote:
   
What ever they attempt is easy and
simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
   
   So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
   acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
   his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
   public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
   certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
   it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
   all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
   plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
  
  Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do
just 
  that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks.
 
 What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs 
 want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, 
 without attachment to the result. 
 
 I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas 
 to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching 
 new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior 
 to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened.
 But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's 
 thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- 
 Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism 
 sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the 
 idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff.


Well, that is one way to look at it, probably more *enlightened* than
my view. 

I don't think Maharishi acts w/o attachement. I don't think all his
damning of democracy, acting petulant when world leaders won't listen
to his ideas, etc. are the acts of someone who is non-attached. 

IMO this whole notion of non-attachment is merely a concept and who
knows if anyone here truly even understands it and even if they could,
could they really explain it in such a way that the listener would a)
be able to truly grok it and b) not be influenced by it to such a
degree that they would try emulating this non-attached state thinking
that by acting non-attached they actually were non-attached?

It all sounds like some ego-Olympics where those who think they get it
get to sound off and aggrandize themselves v. simply living the life.
From my perspective, people living from this level would be much
simpler than all of what goes on here. 

But that may be/is just my own viewpoint.




 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- sparaig wrote:
 
  --- Gillam wrote:
  
   --- tom traynor wrote:
   
What ever they attempt is easy and
simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
   
   So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
   acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
   his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
   public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
   certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
   it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
   all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
   plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
  
  Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) 
do just 
  that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks.
 
 What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs 
 want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, 
 without attachment to the result. 
 
 I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas 
 to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching 
 new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior 
 to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the 
unenlightened.
 But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's 
 thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- 
 Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism 
 sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the 
 idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff.


There's nothing unenlightened about working as hard as possible to 
fulfill a plan or goal. MMY seems to apply unequal measures of hard 
work to various plans or goals he comes up with. This may be due to 
some intellectual evaluation of each plan/goal, or due to some 
intuitive go with the flow thing, or perhaps, a bit of both.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis

Anonyff writes: snipped
Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
form of severe mental masturbation.

Tom T:
Well not really intellectualizing just trying to answer a question
that seemed to have been raised. In the past I have also posted as YES
to all the above things you have posted above minus the
intellectualizing and mental masturbation comment. If you come in to
the middle of a movie you don't always know all the previous dialog. I
don't repeat what I may have posted two years ago. To do so would make
this a very cumbersome exchange. All I am posting now is a
continuation of everything I posted before. I don't see how you can
expect to understand everything that goes on here when you pick it up
midstream.  The relative body still has all the foibles of a relative
body. On the other hand is an inner knowingness of all is perfect in
the flow of the NOW. This is how it is for me. I am sharing only
because it might just open some others to the possibilities. Yours may
be totally different. Some here may have a similar view and/or
understanding that is not complete for them. Occasionally some here
seem to connect with some of my experiences/understandings/knowingness
that has increased knowingness for them. My favorite way of explaining
it is to think of a Baskins and Robbins store with 6 billion/trillion
flavors. You CAN have it your way, Another way to say it is each human
has a truly unique set of DNA how could it not be different. TomT






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Tom (anonyff replied):

Sorry for the *tone* of my previous post, although I did mean it, in
that moment, exactly as I said it.

FYI I have been reading and contributing to FF LIfe for at least 2
years and probably more like 3+ (how long has it been around?). I just
changed my name and use the anonyff handle because I ended up
embarrassed by some of the things I said as myself. 

I'm willing to acknowlege that at this moment in time, I am
experiencing a *limited* very bound version of myself and from there
comes my expression of hostility towards those who claim sometning
different. (Envy perhaps?)

I have had the experience, over the long years, of becoming very
unboounded and, as it says in the 9th mandala, liquid, loveable, and
wise. It never lasted more than maybe five minutes. During those
moments I experienced what I can only describe as an infinite flow, a
knowledge that I was infinite, eternal and unbounded. 

Thanks for your generous reply.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Anonyff writes: snipped
 Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
 are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
 tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
 anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
 form of severe mental masturbation.
 
 Tom T:
 Well not really intellectualizing just trying to answer a question
 that seemed to have been raised. In the past I have also posted as YES
 to all the above things you have posted above minus the
 intellectualizing and mental masturbation comment. If you come in to
 the middle of a movie you don't always know all the previous dialog. I
 don't repeat what I may have posted two years ago. To do so would make
 this a very cumbersome exchange. All I am posting now is a
 continuation of everything I posted before. I don't see how you can
 expect to understand everything that goes on here when you pick it up
 midstream.  The relative body still has all the foibles of a relative
 body. On the other hand is an inner knowingness of all is perfect in
 the flow of the NOW. This is how it is for me. I am sharing only
 because it might just open some others to the possibilities. Yours may
 be totally different. Some here may have a similar view and/or
 understanding that is not complete for them. Occasionally some here
 seem to connect with some of my experiences/understandings/knowingness
 that has increased knowingness for them. My favorite way of explaining
 it is to think of a Baskins and Robbins store with 6 billion/trillion
 flavors. You CAN have it your way, Another way to say it is each human
 has a truly unique set of DNA how could it not be different. TomT







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread Rick Archer

on 3/3/06 10:37 PM, anonyff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FYI I have been reading and contributing to FF LIfe for at least 2
 years and probably more like 3+ (how long has it been around?).

Since Sept. 5, 2001 - 6 days before 9/11




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  so who regularly disses who for what claim of experience or non-
  experience? My own take on people who claim to be in full-blown 
  brahman consciousness is that MMY has, from what Ihave heard, 
said 
  that someone who is fully in Unity (and brahman con. transcends 
  Unity, I hear) can manifest any ole siddhi he chooses to. That 
being 
  the case, anyone who claims Brahman Consciousness should have had 
at 
  least one full-blown experience of floating for 5-30 mintues 
while 
  practicing the Yogic FLying technique since, even if the TM-
Sidhis 
  techniques are entirely bogus, mere intent is all that is 
required 
  for someone in Unity to perform a siddhi.
 
 Someday you should learn to take what Maharishisez with
 the necessary shaker of salt. AFAIK, he is pretty much
 *alone* in the spiritual world at suggesting this criterion
 for full enlightenment. *History* certainly doesn't agree
 with him; it is full of people who have been regarded as
 fully enlightened, and who have *never* exhibited any of
 the siddhis.
 
 It's an apples and oranges thang, but even more so. The
 siddhis have absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment.
 The apples come from Venus and enlightenment comes from
 Mars. :-) Many non-enlightened people can perform the 
 siddhis and many enlightened people cannot. The *only*
 reason Maharishi tried to suggest a link between the
 two is that he was trying to SELL the siddhis as a 
 pathway to enlightenment.

Gee, Barry, you seem to have inadvertently deleted
what Lawson was responding to from your post.  Let
me help you out and restore it:

 Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly
 universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say
 that they have experienced the goal that is shared
 by pretty much the entire group (for example,
 enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
 the group who have not had such an experience.
 One would think they'd be happy that someone is
 actually getting what they paid for, but the
 reality is sadly often the opposite.

Now read what Lawson wrote again, *in response to 
what you wrote*, and see if you can figure out why
your comment here is a complete non sequitur.

Hint: Look closely at the first sentence of Lawson's
response.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness





on 3/2/06 11:14 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Would you like to see the scar on my ass? 

I'd love to show that to you! :-)

Reminds me of Forrest Gump and LBJ.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip perhaps I felt it in bad
 form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about it
 in  
 public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and
 verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of experiences and
 so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point of
 non-discussion of experience?
 
 Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there to
 brag about? 
 
 The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one,
 because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of the
 folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I
 personally feel that it is important to let people know that ordinary
 chumps, like me, can achieve such a state.

Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a hard time
believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not
enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail
driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising
the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
 things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.

That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things 
clearly. Plain and simple.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever*
 been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like
 everyone else does.

I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused him a great deal of
discomfort.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever*
  been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like
  everyone else does.
 
 I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused 
 him a great deal of discomfort.

Probably as a result of so many people poking
him with nails.  :-)







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.

The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.

So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling enlightenment which doesnt necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  snip perhaps I felt it in bad
  form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about 
it
  in  
  public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and
  verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of experiences 
and
  so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point 
of
  non-discussion of experience?
  
  Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there 
to
  brag about? 
  
  The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one,
  because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of 
the
  folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I
  personally feel that it is important to let people know that 
ordinary
  chumps, like me, can achieve such a state.
 
 Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a 
hard time
 believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are 
not
 enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a 
nail
 driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's 
raising
 the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of 
seeing
 things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.


What bar is there that one needs to pass under/over to be enlightened?








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:
 
  but I have a hard time
  believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts 
are  
  not
  enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a 
nail
  driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think 
he's  
  raising
  the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of 
seeing
  things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
 
 
 Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story 
of  
 Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a  
 certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in 
that  
 style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of  
 samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.
 

But your expectation about what samadhi is or isn't colors your 
perception of the story.


 The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of  
 unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment 
where  
 the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And 
it's  
 extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence 
I  
 like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.


How do you know its extremely rare? Who says that such a state, where 
one can be sure that one won't scream, exists? What tradition gives 
this as a test? Zen stories speak of the guys who can meditate under 
a waterfall. I've meditated in a dentist's chair with the dentist 
drilling out a tooth. People can meditate while in extreme pain from 
broken bones, waiting foran ambulance. What specifically is there 
about the nail that makes this story important to you?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail 
story of
  Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a 
certain type
  of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of 
samadhi only
  means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says 
little about
  enlightenment per se.
  
  The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of 
unity, but is
  only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic 
supports for
  the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let 
alone
  witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when 
britches get
  too many sizes too big. 
  
 So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling
 ³enlightenment² which doesn¹t necessarily include these 
extraordinary states
 and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 
years of
 regular spiritual practice?


As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some 
text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't 
takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming 
isn't relevant to witnessing.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some
 text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
 takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming
 isn't relevant to witnessing.

He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to go into a
state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. In other
words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced that that
ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more like a
specialized sidhi.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting 
some
  text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
  takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. 
Screaming
  isn't relevant to witnessing.
 
 He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to 
go into a
 state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. 
In other
 words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced 
that that
 ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more 
like a
 specialized sidhi.


Of course the senses are withdrawn whenever one has samadhi during 
meditation, but 1) I've never heard it claimed that this would 
preclude waking up in an emergency and 2) wasn't this during a 
lecture? 







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness



On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some  text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't  takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming  isn't relevant to witnessing. Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is mis- or over-interpreting this?Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi? Had you forgotten about that?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling “enlightenment” which doesn’t necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?It's all going to hinge on how you define the english word "enlightenment". Very vague word.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 3:53 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi?

Yes, I told that story, having heard it from somewhere. There are also stories of Maharishi and Amma doing this. The Maharishi story, as I heard it, was that he was in some mountain cabin in California where he wanted to be left alone for a while to work on a book or something. There was a big snow storm and people couldnt get up there for a few days. When they finally did, they found him sitting in samadhi, half covered with snow, with the window open. When he came out he was none the worse for wear. Dont know the veracity of the story.

Had you forgotten about that?

No. Im sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that Im not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But thats really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.

I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.

One of Maharishis secretaries told me that Maharishis weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I dont know if they were all that way.

I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.

Hadnt heard that.

Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.

Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.

Did you master them?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- jim_flanegin wrote:

 --- Rick Archer wrote:
 
  Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
  things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
 
 That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things 
 clearly. Plain and simple.

To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things 
as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. 

Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.One of Maharishi’s secretaries told me that Maharishi’s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don’t know if they were all that way.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hadn’t heard that.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.Did you master them? Not by a long shot, but dying is easier than I thought :-), it's coming back that can be difficult. These are practices done over a lifetime.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip 
  I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha 
  and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this 
  would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a 
  lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be 
  wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to 
  a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status
  of the universe it claimed.
  
 One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly 
 silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out 
 reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way.

Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before
his birthday in January, when he proclaims the theme
for the coming year?  I remember seeing a tape of his
address just after supposedly coming out of silence one
year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a 
beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very
blissful.  It's the only time I recall seeing him
wearing anything over his white outfit.

We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the
week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail
when he came out.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- jim_flanegin wrote:
 
  --- Rick Archer wrote:
  
   Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
   things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
  
  That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing 
things 
  clearly. Plain and simple.
 
 To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
 hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things 
 as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. 
 
 Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
 seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
 preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.

Isn't choiceless awareness Krishnamurti's version of this?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- jim_flanegin wrote:
 
  --- Rick Archer wrote:
  
   Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
   things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
  
  That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing 
things 
  clearly. Plain and simple.
 
 To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
 hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things 
 as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. 
 
 Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
 seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
 preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.

Yes, Byron Katie's method of enquiry is really useful in unraveling 
stories stored in the mind. Clutter.

And yes, the experience of the mind after awakening is like always 
starting with a clean slate, moment by moment, seeing anything in 
utter simplicity and utter profundity. Preconceptions are just there 
out of habit or due to fear. Without them, the world appears as it 
truly is, far deeper and more beautiful than we used to think it was.

Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. 
No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a 
state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no 
longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is 
little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the 
course of daily life as being useful.

Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them 
by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away 
for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a 
much larger raise than what I was seeking. 

But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for 
him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things 
that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily available, 
depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny example of 
how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we are awake.

And how it begins to operate completely differently than what we 
thought before, caught up in all our stories and illusions and 
preconceptions. And at the same time, it is far more real, far more 
simple, and far more natural and gratifying than it ever was before.

Thanks for your comments. 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 8:48 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip 
 I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha
 and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this
 would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a
 lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be
 wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to
 a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status
 of the universe it claimed.
 
 One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly
 silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out
 reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way.
 
 Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before
 his birthday in January, when he proclaims the theme
 for the coming year?

Yes.

I remember seeing a tape of his
 address just after supposedly coming out of silence one
 year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a
 beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very
 blissful.  It's the only time I recall seeing him
 wearing anything over his white outfit.

He had a Chartreuse shawl over his shoulders. Still wore the dhoti.
 
 We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the
 week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail
 when he came out.

Yes. I've been there several times when he came out. Very profound darshan,
although now I wonder if he was acting a bit to embellish the impression.
Maybe sometimes he didn't eat or drink during silence, but one of his
secretaries told me that sometimes he did.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. 
 No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a 
 state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no 
 longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is 
 little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the 
 course of daily life as being useful.
 
 Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them 
 by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away 
 for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a 
 much larger raise than what I was seeking. 
 
 But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for 
 him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things 
 that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily
 available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny 
 example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we 
 are awake.

Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
would leap at it, and so on.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading?
 I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
 he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
 TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
 would leap at it, and so on.

are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state 
itself?

Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is 
mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, 
about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple in 
concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's standpoint.

On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple. 

 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
 jpgillam@ wrote:
  --- jim_flanegin wrote:
   --- Rick Archer wrote:
   
Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
   
   That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing 
   things clearly. Plain and simple.

This is very much in line with the Buddhist approach
to enlightenment.  One definition I've heard from
Buddhist teachers of the state is, Enlightenment is 
perception without mental modification.

*Any* mental modification. I think that one of the
things that rings false in some people's reported
experiences of enlightenment is that they attempt
to make the experiences fit into the descriptions
of such experiences they have been fed by their
tradition. They *color* the stories of their own
personal experiences in such a way that they seem
to be more in line with what other members of the
organization were told about what such experiences
should be like. Or -- another common phenomenon --
they describe their experiences such that it appears
they fall into one of the pat descriptions of *stages*
of enlightenment -- CC, GC, UC, BC, or whatever the
various flavors of experiences are labeled by their
tradition.

That's one reason I find reports such as Jim's 
valuable. He rarely, if ever, tries to do this.
He just talks about what he experiences, without
trying to color it or define it in any way *as*
anything; they're just his stories of what is,
for him.

  To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
  hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things 
  as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. 
  
  Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
  seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
  preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.

Preconceptions are always just that -- pre-conceptions.
They're what one expects the baby to look like and
be like before any actual screwing has taken place. :-)

When the baby actually *is* conceived and pops out,
it doesn't necessarily look like or act like what
was expected. And that's Ok. But some parents have
a tendency to try to *make* it into what they expected.
The kid's playing in the sandbox, clearly blissed out
drawing in the sand, enjoying being an artist, and
the parents are already planning its career as a 
lawyer, because they were told that all enlightenment
babies are lawyers.  :-)  :-)  :-)

Back in Fiuggi, I knew about half a dozen folks who
were having flashes of awakening. At first they were 
quite happy describing them *as they were*, as 24/7
transcendence, along with whatever else was going on
in the foreground of life. Then Maharishi gave a
lecture in which he suggested that one of the 
qualities of CC was X. Within days, all of these
people were talking about X. No one had ever 
mentioned X before, or seemingly even thought 
about X before, but the moment it was an *expected*
component of CC, they added it to their stories of
their own personal experiences.

In other words, in my opinion, not being stabilized
in their experience, they were attempting to *color*
it and *make them into* what such experiences were
supposed to be like. What was obvious from my 
point of view was that the joy had gone out of their
stories. Before this event, when these people had
been talking about what was for them, you could
*feel* the energy behind their words, the sense of
newness and excitement that they were feeling. The
moment they switched to telling stories about what
they were supposed to be experiencing, all of 
that joy went out of the words. It was just people
telling stories that had been told to them.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Peter



--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 TorquiseB writes: snipped
  Those who say
 that they have experienced the goal that is shared
 by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
 enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
 the group who have not had such an experience.
 One would think they'd be happy that someone is
 actually getting what they paid for, but the 
 reality is sadly often the opposite.
 
 Tom T:
 Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
 even insinuate that
 you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor
 do you have all
 the requirements that has been heard on numerous
 courses 30 long years
 ago forgotten are all the details of even where this
 course was but
 the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
 memorized in
 concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
 Tom T

And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.


 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 11:05 PM, purushaz wrote:---Statement below (Enlightened person has an option to stop pain) is incorrect.  Enlightenment does not imply particular (or any) Siddhis, which have to do with relative endeavors..  Why stop with control over pain?  Why not say that Enlightened people can fly through the air 108 miles?  Show me a text that Enlightened people can control pain and I'll swallow some nails.   The original story referred to people in a particular style of samadhi.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   TorquiseB writes: snipped
  
   Those who say
   that they have experienced the goal that is shared
   by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
   enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
   the group who have not had such an experience.
   One would think they'd be happy that someone is
   actually getting what they paid for, but the 
   reality is sadly often the opposite.
  
  Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
  even insinuate that
  you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor
  do you have all
  the requirements that has been heard on numerous
  courses 30 long years
  ago forgotten are all the details of even where this
  course was but
  the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
  memorized in
  concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
 
 And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
 realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.

The 'hiss' is the sound of self-loathing.

I'm not talking just about the manifestation 
of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about
what it seems to be like in *all* of the 
groups I've seen it appear in.

The things that the critics harp on when lash-
ing out at those who report enlightenment
experiences are always the same. The faults
they home in on are always the things that
the critics believe are wrong with *themselves*.

The critics believe that these traits are the
things that keep them from realization, so
when they encounter someone who claims to have
experienced realization and yet still has some 
of the traits that they loathe in themselves, 
it creates a strong sense of cognitive dissonance. 

At this point, the critics have a choice -- either 
they can accept that the things they believe keep 
them from their own realization are fictions in 
their own minds, with no basis in reality, or they
can reject the enlightenment of their fellow
seekers who display these traits.

The choice is simple. The ego would *much*
rather attack than admit it made a fundamental
error (*much less* that it doesn't even exist). 

So the more visible and vocal the seekers who have 
experienced enlightenment get, the more abrasive 
and abusive the critics get. The critics' quest 
becomes a sick form of Vaj's pin-sticking test. 
The critics start to badger the seekers who claim 
realization, doing whatever they can think of to
make them angry, to get them to react in some way
so they can turn to their fellow critics and say, 
See! Look at that anger! I *told* you so-and-so 
wasn't enlightened.

It's really the same scene in *every* organization 
I've ever encountered in which someone was open 
about their enlightenment experiences. The cycle 
of criticism and abuse continues until -- all too 
often -- the person who has claimed the realization 
experiences is driven out of the organization.

Then the critics have succeeded. There is no 
longer anyone around to point out that all their
excuses for not being enlightened are just that,
excuses. They can go back to hiding from realiz-
ation, hiding behind the faults they think keep
enlightenment at bay, when in reality, it is their 
own fear that keeps enlightenment away.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Peter wrote:--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Tom T: Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. Tom T And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then!

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Alex Stanley

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ 
 wrote:
  --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
  tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote:
TorquiseB writes: snipped
   
Those who say
that they have experienced the goal that is shared
by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
the group who have not had such an experience.
One would think they'd be happy that someone is
actually getting what they paid for, but the 
reality is sadly often the opposite.
   
   Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
   even insinuate that
   you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor
   do you have all
   the requirements that has been heard on numerous
   courses 30 long years
   ago forgotten are all the details of even where this
   course was but
   the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
   memorized in
   concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
  
  And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
  realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.
 
 The 'hiss' is the sound of self-loathing.
 
 I'm not talking just about the manifestation 
 of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about
 what it seems to be like in *all* of the 
 groups I've seen it appear in.

Have you observed groups in which this phenomenon has not appeared? TM
and Waking Down are the only spiritual groups I've been involved with,
and I've never encountered this phenomenon in Waking Down.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  I'm not talking just about the manifestation 
  of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about
  what it seems to be like in *all* of the 
  groups I've seen it appear in.
 
 Have you observed groups in which this phenomenon has 
 not appeared? TM and Waking Down are the only spiritual 
 groups I've been involved with, and I've never encountered 
 this phenomenon in Waking Down.

I think that some of the groups from the Ramana
Maharshi tradition do Ok, although as Vaj and 
others point out, there can be a lot of almost
co-dependent mood-making in those groups. At
least they don't go out of their way to make
someone who has had a realization experience
feel like shit.

The best scenario I ever saw was in a Tibetan
group. That particular group reflected a trad-
ition that had been around a *long* time, and
had thus developed their own teachings for what
to do and say when one of the students starts
having experiences like this. 

I think that the situation I described before 
tends to come up in groups where the teacher 
really doesn't have a *clue* what to say to 
someone who is beginning to have enlightenment 
experiences, and in fact abdicates his respons-
ibilities by creating an atmosphere in which 
students are subtly discouraged from mentioning 
such experiences. I suspect that Maharishi falls 
into that class of teacher. He doesn't deal with
the situation because to do so would reveal his 
total lack of knowledge about what to say or do.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ 
  wrote:
   --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
   tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote:
 TorquiseB writes: snipped

 Those who say
 that they have experienced the goal that is shared
 by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
 enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
 the group who have not had such an experience.
 One would think they'd be happy that someone is
 actually getting what they paid for, but the 
 reality is sadly often the opposite.

Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
even insinuate that
you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor
do you have all
the requirements that has been heard on numerous
courses 30 long years
ago forgotten are all the details of even where this
course was but
the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
memorized in
concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
   
   And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
   realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.
  
  The 'hiss' is the sound of self-loathing.
  
  I'm not talking just about the manifestation 
  of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about
  what it seems to be like in *all* of the 
  groups I've seen it appear in.
 
 Have you observed groups in which this phenomenon has not appeared?
 TM and Waking Down are the only spiritual groups I've been involved 
 with, and I've never encountered this phenomenon in Waking Down.

FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
contrary.  What I've observed has been a
tendency to be deferential to those who
claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.

On the other hand, I've encountered a certain
degree of confusion about the nature of
responsibility for behavior in enlightenment--
i.e., folks who were hesitant to criticize the
behavior of those who claimed enlightenment,
and folks who claimed enlightenment rejecting
criticism of their behavior on the grounds
that it was really Nature doing the behaving.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Peter



--- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Peter wrote:
 
  --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 
  TorquiseB writes: snipped
   Those who say
  that they have experienced the goal that is
 shared
  by pretty much the entire group (for example,
  enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
  the group who have not had such an experience.
  One would think they'd be happy that someone is
  actually getting what they paid for, but the
  reality is sadly often the opposite.
 
  Tom T:
  Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
  even insinuate that
  you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy
 nor
  do you have all
  the requirements that has been heard on numerous
  courses 30 long years
  ago forgotten are all the details of even where
 this
  course was but
  the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
  memorized in
  concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
  Tom T
 
 
  And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
  realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.
 
 I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up
 the possibility  
 that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang
 culture is actually  
 Spiritual Codependence?
 
 Never mind then!

Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does
sound interesting.



 
 
 
 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
 contrary.  What I've observed has been a
 tendency to be deferential to those who
 claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.

In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim
enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson
legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those
people wouldn't dare go public.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread jyouells2000

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
  contrary.  What I've observed has been a
  tendency to be deferential to those who
  claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare
claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those
 people wouldn't dare go public.


Is Fred in MUM's good graces, (still on the reservation, on the
program, studying or supported under the MUM umbrella, etc. ?

JohnY









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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
  contrary.  What I've observed has been a
  tendency to be deferential to those who
  claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't 
dare claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin 
Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but 
those
 people wouldn't dare go public.

Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson 
legacy. Thanks





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 10:03 AM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
 contrary.  What I've observed has been a
 tendency to be deferential to those who
 claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare
 claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
 Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those
 people wouldn't dare go public.
 
 
 Is Fred in MUM's good graces, (still on the reservation, on the
 program, studying or supported under the MUM umbrella, etc. ?

Totally.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Peter



--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
   contrary.  What I've observed has been a
   tendency to be deferential to those who
   claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
  
  In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM,
 people don't 
 dare claim
  enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears
 created by the Robin 
 Carlson
  legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly
 studying people, but 
 those
  people wouldn't dare go public.
 
 Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the
 Robin Carlson 
 legacy. Thanks

Now that was a fun and crazy time at MIU and the
greater community.




 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
  contrary.  What I've observed has been a
  tendency to be deferential to those who
  claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare
claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those
 people wouldn't dare go public.

I remember in the 70s there was some tendency to look up to certain
people who were rumored to have good experiences on courses, but
it's been just the opposite for some time now.  Saying anything public
about being enlightened is cause for blacklisting at MUM - now tmers
are deferential to people who have been given titles by MMY.  

I don't know if this is true about the Travis studies, but it used to
be policy at MUM that any study reg. higher states could only be done
using subjects with valid dome badges -- the idea of someone without a
valid badge having enlightened experiences was not acceptable.

Personally I'm wary of anyone making E claims and prefer orgs that
don't even use the word.  IMO, energywise, being enlightened is just
the new age-eastern version of being saved by Jesus.









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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..



On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:16 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:Personally I'm wary of anyone making E claims and prefer orgs that don't even use the word.  IMO, energywise, "being enlightened" is just the new age-eastern version of "being saved by Jesus". I loved this! Yes, you've described the conversion experience also present in some satsang cultures.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 10:02 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
 contrary.  What I've observed has been a
 tendency to be deferential to those who
 claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't
 dare claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
 Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but
 those
 people wouldn't dare go public.
 
 Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson
 legacy. Thanks

It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25
years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was
enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a lot of
converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. This made a lot of
people around here very leery about anyone who proclaims their
enlightenment. The attitude seems to be that real enlightenment is a very
lofty goal that ordinary chumps like us are very unlikely to have attained,
and that shouldn't be considered genuine unless Maharishi confirms it, which
he never does, and that if you've got something good going on, you should
keep it to yourself or let Fred Travis study you privately.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up forrealization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring upthe possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsangculture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it doessound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness.There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 10:23 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:

And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.

I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up
the possibility
that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang
culture is actually
Spiritual Codependence?

Never mind then!

Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does
sound interesting.

My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed.

All thats a bit much for my simple brain. All I can say is that I get high as a kite in those meetings, and the effect is cumulative. Ive seen a number of people undergo dramatic, life-changing, and apparently permanent shifts. Exactly what state theyre shifting to, and exactly what state the already-shifted ones are in, who can say? But something good is happening.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- Rick Archer  wrote:

 jim_flanegin  wrote:
 
  Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson
  legacy. Thanks
 
 It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25
 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was
 enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a lot of
 converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. 

Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though 
she gave him a different name) in her book, Collision 
with the Infinite. As I recall, he doesn't come across 
looking too good.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread jyouells2000

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I don't know if this is true about the Travis studies, but it used to
be policy at MUM that any study reg. higher states could only be done
 using subjects with valid dome badges -- the idea of someone without
a valid badge having enlightened experiences was not acceptable.



That is such an unbelievable hoot! Talk about unbiased science
leverage? blackmail?  :-)  I guess it has to do with who pays the
bills.


JohnY





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread jyouells2000

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- Rick Archer  wrote:
 
  jim_flanegin  wrote:
  
   Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson
   legacy. Thanks
  
  It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length,
but about 25
  years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was
  enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a
lot of
  converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. 
 
 Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though 
 she gave him a different name) in her book, Collision 
 with the Infinite. As I recall, he doesn't come across 
 looking too good.


Yup, and his right hand man that she called William. She wasn't
really up-front about what she thought, but the context was pretty clear. 

JohnY





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Rick Archer wrote: jim_flanegin wrote: Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on "the Robin Carlson legacy". Thanks It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was enlightened, set himself up as a "World Teacher," and attracted a lot of converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though she gave him a different name) in her book, "Collision with the Infinite." As I recall, he doesn't come across looking too good. In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment, but when it was all over and done, we were all convinced this man was without a doubt, a fraud.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread feste37

Very nice post. Satsang as a way of weaving ever more subtle self-delusions.  
Not being much of a Satsanger, I wouldn't know for sure, but it sounds very 
plausible. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on  
 a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a  
 support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the  
 pointing out of own non-dual nature but more a group which I could  
 describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be  
 contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the  
 patterns I've observed.
 
 In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person  
 claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state  
 can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.
 
 Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where  
 the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their  
 own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit  
 with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The  
 receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default*  
 accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since  
 this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually  
 supporting the others in this awakening forming a web of agreement.  
 A gentlements agreement is silently reached I support your  
 enlightenment and you support mine--and there is almost always no  
 argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious  
 agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is  
 sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As  
 the group of enlightmentees grows, so does the potential complicit  
 contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but  
 instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken  
 others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who  
 would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak.  
 An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was  
 genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often  
 tested in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may  
 actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This pointing out  
 is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of  
 awareness can be pointed out *by  persons who are not enlightened*  
 but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some  
 intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who  
 are doing this are enlightened or awakened. This seems to feed some  
 subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the  
 group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle  
 unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the  
 group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.
 
 I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be  
 codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave  
 them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities,  
 but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense  
 of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent  
 collective consciousness.
 
 There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important  
 one IME.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..



I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more  "neoadvaita" kind of gathering.On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:50 AM, feste37 wrote:Very nice post. Satsang as a way of weaving ever more subtle self-delusions.   Not being much of a Satsanger, I wouldn't know for sure, but it sounds very  plausible.  





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence? Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does sound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness.There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..