[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Anonyff writes: snipped I have had the experience, over the long years, of becoming very unboounded and, as it says in the 9th mandala, liquid, loveable, and wise. It never lasted more than maybe five minutes. During those moments I experienced what I can only describe as an infinite flow, a knowledge that I was infinite, eternal and unbounded. Thanks for your generous reply. Tom T: Thanks for the thanks. Sometimes it seems why bother and then that old saw comes up, well someone has to do it, why not you. So I blather here and hope it makes some difference. I am glad to see that the moments of unboundedness have had you. I neat way of looking at as one of my friends put it, for a long time he thought he was Mr X having an occasional unbounded experience when it finally became obvious that he was the unbounded having the experience of being Mr X. It is a subtle but totally different way of getting how it is. It would appear to be the breaking of the attachment of being a bound individual. Since he had that subtle 180 shift he has noted that Mr X is all over the lot in terms of his feelings but that in which the Mr X experience happens is the new constant. May the unboundedness bite you permanently in the butt, once it has you, things are never going to be the same. Tom T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. I don't think the first part of this last sentence necessarily implies the second part. The pundit project was successful - it was the focal pt for raising well over $200 million over the yrs. Why bother delivering the product if you can keep raising capital over and over with the same business plan? Sometimes it's hidden in plain sight. Like a TMO that doesn't teach TM. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO this whole notion of non-attachment is merely a concept and who knows if anyone here truly even understands it and even if they could, could they really explain it in such a way that the listener would a) be able to truly grok it By way of analogy, the difference between attachment and non- attachment in action is the difference between jumping into a river, and attempting to reach your destination downstream by swimming against the current to some degree, or floating with it. The non-attached feeling or sense comes about because over our many years of spiritual practice, and learning from our experience, bit by bit, how life works, we eventually gain such a perfect degree of coordination between our environment and our interaction with it, that the effect of fulfilling our desires is similar to floating with the current in a river. This applies no matter what our activity is. Back to the analogy, if you are at point A in the river and attempting to get to point B, downstream, and just let the current take you there, during the journey you will realize you are accomplishing your desire of getting to point B, but feel non- attached about it. It is all happening as if on its own. On the other hand, if your degree of coordination is not perfected with regard to your environment, it is analogous to fighting the current, being very much personally involved and attached to the outcome of getting from point A to point B. This causes us to necessarily take ownership of the journey, and feel that we are the doer. There is no way to fake non-attachment and get good results. and b) not be influenced by it to such a degree that they would try emulating this non-attached state thinking that by acting non-attached they actually were non-attached? It all sounds like some ego-Olympics where those who think they get it get to sound off and aggrandize themselves v. simply living the life. From my perspective, people living from this level would be much simpler than all of what goes on here. But that may be/is just my own viewpoint. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anonyff writes: snipped I have had the experience, over the long years, of becoming very unboounded and, as it says in the 9th mandala, liquid, loveable, and wise. It never lasted more than maybe five minutes. During those moments I experienced what I can only describe as an infinite flow, a knowledge that I was infinite, eternal and unbounded. Thanks for your generous reply. Tom T: Thanks for the thanks. Sometimes it seems why bother and then that old saw comes up, well someone has to do it, why not you. So I blather here and hope it makes some difference. I am glad to see that the moments of unboundedness have had you. I neat way of looking at as one of my friends put it, for a long time he thought he was Mr X having an occasional unbounded experience when it finally became obvious that he was the unbounded having the experience of being Mr X. It is a subtle but totally different way of getting how it is. It would appear to be the breaking of the attachment of being a bound individual. Since he had that subtle 180 shift he has noted that Mr X is all over the lot in terms of his feelings but that in which the Mr X experience happens is the new constant. May the unboundedness bite you permanently in the butt, once it has you, things are never going to be the same. Tom T But(t), they are... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote: As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming isn't relevant to witnessing. Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is mis- or over-interpreting this? Actually I was just reading the 3 books by him, and I am tempted to reply: 'Yes, certainly' These books, certainly a good read, have some rather wild and far-out stories which remind me of Castaneda.Certainly interesting, but the thought came to my mind, how authentic they actually are. You know it could all be made up, just integrating a lot of material from Tantrism. But even if its not made up, or poetically enlarged, its all the story-telling of some Sadhu, with extra-ordinary claims. So its all second or third-hand account. When I was at the 2001 Kumbh, some smoking Baba showed me a fotograph of himself hoovering over the ground his head near the ceiling. I'm quite sure it was a fake, looked like the TM Flying pictures. These Sadhus tell a lot of stories. It sin't rare at all to run over people who are claimed to be several hundred years old. (I met one 2004). But according to Ramana Siddhis or Nirvikalpa Samadhi are not a prerequiste to enlightenment the 'natural state'. Also Aurobindo says that he never went into Nirvikalpa. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: --- Rick Archer wrote: Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things clearly. Plain and simple. This is very much in line with the Buddhist approach to enlightenment. One definition I've heard from Buddhist teachers of the state is, Enlightenment is perception without mental modification. *Any* mental modification. I think that one of the things that rings false in some people's reported experiences of enlightenment is that they attempt to make the experiences fit into the descriptions of such experiences they have been fed by their tradition. They *color* the stories of their own personal experiences in such a way that they seem to be more in line with what other members of the organization were told about what such experiences should be like. Or -- another common phenomenon -- they describe their experiences such that it appears they fall into one of the pat descriptions of *stages* of enlightenment -- CC, GC, UC, BC, or whatever the various flavors of experiences are labeled by their tradition. That's one reason I find reports such as Jim's valuable. He rarely, if ever, tries to do this. He just talks about what he experiences, without trying to color it or define it in any way *as* anything; they're just his stories of what is, for him. To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. Preconceptions are always just that -- pre-conceptions. They're what one expects the baby to look like and be like before any actual screwing has taken place. :-) When the baby actually *is* conceived and pops out, it doesn't necessarily look like or act like what was expected. And that's Ok. But some parents have a tendency to try to *make* it into what they expected. The kid's playing in the sandbox, clearly blissed out drawing in the sand, enjoying being an artist, and the parents are already planning its career as a lawyer, because they were told that all enlightenment babies are lawyers. :-) :-) :-) Back in Fiuggi, I knew about half a dozen folks who were having flashes of awakening. At first they were quite happy describing them *as they were*, as 24/7 transcendence, along with whatever else was going on in the foreground of life. Then Maharishi gave a lecture in which he suggested that one of the qualities of CC was X. Within days, all of these people were talking about X. No one had ever mentioned X before, or seemingly even thought about X before, but the moment it was an *expected* component of CC, they added it to their stories of their own personal experiences. In other words, in my opinion, not being stabilized in their experience, they were attempting to *color* it and *make them into* what such experiences were supposed to be like. What was obvious from my point of view was that the joy had gone out of their stories. Before this event, when these people had been talking about what was for them, you could *feel* the energy behind their words, the sense of newness and excitement that they were feeling. The moment they switched to telling stories about what they were supposed to be experiencing, all of that joy went out of the words. It was just people telling stories that had been told to them. It's interesting to hear that the power of persuasion might be at work here, as I had a series of experiences early on in my career that showed me a text book step-by-step evolution, clearly deliniated states of higher awareness from cc all the way to unity, it was amazingly convincing and very obviously a real physical state my brain was slipping into. But I had read a book about TM and asked many questions on courses. Can our expectations (not that I felt I was having any, I've always felt very innocent with the technique) influence the states this easily? This would be a fascinating area of study I think. What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at the time was Darth, as it was four years before I heard about it on a course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. Isn't choiceless awareness Krishnamurti's version of this? Yes, a beautiful expression - and a clue to non-doership as well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at the time was Darth, as it was four years before I heard about it on a course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states. I once met a man in an esoteric shop, who saw a mantra graphical in his meditation, and drew it to me. It was the Ganesha bija. He had known nothing about Hinduism, Ganesha or Sanskrit. These things are possible. Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's interesting to hear that the power of persuasion might be at work here, as I had a series of experiences early on in my career that showed me a text book step-by-step evolution, clearly deliniated states of higher awareness from cc all the way to unity, it was amazingly convincing and very obviously a real physical state my brain was slipping into. But I had read a book about TM and asked many questions on courses. Can our expectations (not that I felt I was having any, I've always felt very innocent with the technique) influence the states this easily? This would be a fascinating area of study I think. I agree. I don't think there is any question that what one has grown up with philosophically colors and influences one's interpretation of one's own spiritual experiences. Just look at the cross- cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary or the beings *they* expect to see. I consider it possible (but not a given) that the Navajo having a vision in his hogan and the monk in his monastery might be having the same experience. But how they *interpret* that experience afterwards is going to be in terms of how they were *taught* to interpret such experiences. What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at the time was Darth... :-) LOL. ...as it was four years before I heard about it on a course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states. But was what you heard the Veda, or some undiffer- entiated cosmic white noise associated with a particular state of attention? Would it be possible that someone used to choral singing in churches could have experienced the same thing and heard the heavenly choir or that a monk from Lhasa could have heard the same thing and heard something that appeared to them to be in the Tibetan language? I don't have any answers for these questions, BTW. I'm just fascinated by this phenomenon. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.) Not to dispute this person's experience but to tell a funny story that may or may not relate to it, a fellow who had just gotten involved with the Rama trip told a story about meeting Rama in a dream before he met him in the physical. The dream had impressed him enough that he wrote it down in his Journal, years earlier. So he met the Rama guy, decided immediately that this was the guy he'd seen in his dream, and signed up to study with him. Then, months later, he discovered his old Journals and found what he had actually written at the time about the guy in his dream -- he was a short Asian guy with long, straight hair. Rama was 6 foot 4, was clearly Western, and had fairly short curly hair. The guy, to his credit, had himself a good laugh at himself at that point and just kept on keepin' on. What I think happens sometimes is that we have experiences in other planes of existence that have *no* mapping to the plane of existence of our normal waking state. The realities are so differ- ent that there is simply no *counterpart* in our reality for the things we experienced in the alter- nate reality. So the mind does its best to map the experiences of the alternate reality to the reality of the waking state. And sometimes what happens is that we wind up mapping the vibe of the experience, not the actual details of the experience. That is, we encounter something or someone in our waking state reality whose vibe reminds us of the vibe that part of us remembers from the alternate reality, and we merge the two in our minds. It's just a theory, but one which I've had to deal with often when trying to come up with some way to write about experiences I've had for which there is simply is no analogue in the thing we call everyday reality. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just look at the cross- cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary or the beings *they* expect to see. It's an interesting question, but I think one should split it into two parts. 1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about and expect. 2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen influenced by expectation and cultural background For 1) the expectation and background should have been there *before* the experience. For 2) it would be sufficient that a certain cultural explanation comes along right *after* the experience - and is matched to the vibe of it as you suggested. For example, I seem to recall that the description of Bernadette's vision at Lourdes (I think it was her) seemed to equally or more precisely match a description of Lakshmi or some waternymph, because she was standing in water, I think inside a flower, a rose (Lotus?), something very untypical for Christians, but was interpereted with the necessary clues as an apparition of Mary, and is seen as a Christian holy site. It clearly didn't match 1) as the Christian background couldn't have suggested the imagery. I consider it possible (but not a given) that the Navajo having a vision in his hogan and the monk in his monastery might be having the same experience. But how they *interpret* that experience afterwards is going to be in terms of how they were *taught* to interpret such experiences. What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at the time was Darth... :-) LOL. ...as it was four years before I heard about it on a course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states. But was what you heard the Veda, or some undiffer- entiated cosmic white noise associated with a particular state of attention? Would it be possible that someone used to choral singing in churches could have experienced the same thing and heard the heavenly choir or that a monk from Lhasa could have heard the same thing and heard something that appeared to them to be in the Tibetan language? I don't have any answers for these questions, BTW. I'm just fascinated by this phenomenon. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.) Not to dispute this person's experience but to tell a funny story that may or may not relate to it, a fellow who had just gotten involved with the Rama trip told a story about meeting Rama in a dream before he met him in the physical. The dream had impressed him enough that he wrote it down in his Journal, years earlier. So he met the Rama guy, decided immediately that this was the guy he'd seen in his dream, and signed up to study with him. Then, months later, he discovered his old Journals and found what he had actually written at the time about the guy in his dream -- he was a short Asian guy with long, straight hair. Rama was 6 foot 4, was clearly Western, and had fairly short curly hair. The guy, to his credit, had himself a good laugh at himself at that point and just kept on keepin' on. What I think happens sometimes is that we have experiences in other planes of existence that have *no* mapping to the plane of existence of our normal waking state. The realities are so differ- ent that there is simply no *counterpart* in our reality for the things we experienced in the alter- nate reality. So the mind does its best to map the experiences of the alternate reality to the reality of the waking state. And sometimes what happens is that we wind up mapping the vibe of the experience, not the actual details of the experience. That is, we encounter something or someone in our waking state reality whose vibe reminds us of the vibe that part of us remembers from the alternate reality, and we merge the two in our minds. It's just a theory, but one which I've had to deal with often when trying to come up with some way to write about experiences I've had for which there is simply is no analogue in the thing we call everyday reality. That's surely an interesting theory, and yes I had already thought along similar lines. Sure, something is 'matched' with something else. There is also the now famous story of Papaji, who says a Sadhu with the appearance of Ramana came to his doorstep to invite him to see Ramana. When he went to see him, he realized that this is the very same man who had invited him, and he accused him to be a cheater, because he could have answered his questions then and there, instead of directing him to his 'Guru', which was obviously himself. No matter what, the guy got directed, and obviously in a very fruitful way, because it let to his liberation. It really doesn't matter anymore, if this appearance was really Ramana (there was also the aditional element of giving him the address) or if he was just matching him to be so later. Maybe it was a Sadhu with the Ramana vibe. If you look at it as a whole, then both the vision and the mapping of it are both part of the same process, which -acc. to my interpretation of course - where just 'meant to be'. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Just look at the cross- cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary or the beings *they* expect to see. It's an interesting question, but I think one should split it into two parts. 1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about and expect. 2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen influenced by expectation and cultural background In my opinion, it's an irrelevant distinction. The experience itself often happens in an alternate reality. The description of it happens afterwards. In your #1 above, what they see is how they describe what they saw after the fact, in the waking state. In your #2 above, how they interpret the experience is also a description, also done from the waking state, after the fact. The only thing that is relevant to the actual experience is the actual experience. In other words, the only way one could get a real-time description of an experience of an alternate reality is if the person was somehow relating it *in* real time, for example, talk- ing into a tape recorder while it was going on. But if they were doing that, and able to handle the talking into a tape recorder (very much a normal waking-state reality type of activity) are they really fully experiencing the alternate reality? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Just look at the cross- cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary or the beings *they* expect to see. It's an interesting question, but I think one should split it into two parts. 1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about and expect. 2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen influenced by expectation and cultural background In my opinion, it's an irrelevant distinction. Hm, I don't think it would be irrelevant, but I agree that it would be hard to separate the two. The experience itself often happens in an alternate reality. The description of it happens afterwards. Sure. But in case of visions, there are clear clues in memory. Memory obviously seems to work. Like this man saw a face of a man with a turban. He didn't just interpret the turban to be there later on. I guess its an accurate memory. Or Bernadette saw the Lady in a pond. She didn't just interpret the pond to be there later on, her memory I think could be taken to be accurate. And there were no cultural clues for her to manufacture this later on. In your #1 above, what they see is how they describe what they saw after the fact, in the waking state. I think they were not in Nirvikalpa Samadhi, so there were visual perceptions in that higher state that could be remembered. In your #2 above, how they interpret the experience is also a description, also done from the waking state, after the fact. I think the distinction here is between visual impression and the memory thereof. The visual impression is during the experience, the memory of course after, the interpretation of it still later. Its like with dreams. We still have memories of dreams, even when we are awake. They may be interpreted, but they are still visual memories. The only thing that is relevant to the actual experience is the actual experience. Not quite, because the effect of the experience is very often still felt after, and carried across into the waking state. And that is how it's meant to be. In other words, the only way one could get a real-time description of an experience of an alternate reality is if the person was somehow relating it *in* real time, for example, talk- ing into a tape recorder while it was going on. But if they were doing that, and able to handle the talking into a tape recorder (very much a normal waking-state reality type of activity) are they really fully experiencing the alternate reality? In some cases this is clearly possible. Its like automatic writing. Just in most cases one doesn't know that one is going to have such an experience. Anyway, usually people are overwhelmed after such experiences and are searching for clues, and usually such clues come. There is an interesting interpretation of St Pauls experience of Christ by Ramana.According to Ramana Paulus had an experience of pure Being. When he started to come to his normal state, slowly, the firts thought he had was of Christ, as this was always formost in his mind, as he persecuted him. Therefore he interpreted the experience to be that of Christ, and that is, well how Christianity came about. ;-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state itself? I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems easy and simple to him, could that sense have been what misled him to think it would be easy and simple for him to convince most everyone in the world to take up TM? Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple in concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's standpoint. On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- authfriend wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. It's extremely common for entrepreneurs to expect the world to lap up whatever new product or service the inventor is offering. Because this behavior is so widespread, I suspect Maharishi's naivete is more a function of his reclusive background and the entrepreneur's tendency to expect the moon. In other words, I don't attribute it to his easy and simple awareness per se. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- Vaj wrote: dying is easier than I thought :-) Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: snip Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the course of daily life as being useful. Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a much larger raise than what I was seeking. But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we are awake. Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. There's a mainstream article that I recently read online that insists that most people aren't happy because being happy is hard and most people are to lazy to do what it takes. Ironically, the article describes happy people as basically behaving according to their dharma and gives examples of athletes, artists, etc. To me this misses the point but obviously the writer wasn't happy or he/she wouldn't have said things the way they did. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state itself? Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple in concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's standpoint. On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple. TM itself is easy, by definition. Scheduling time to do it and dealing with possible issues due to its practice may not be. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state itself? I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems easy and simple to him, could that sense have been what misled him to think it would be easy and simple for him to convince most everyone in the world to take up TM? Personally I think it was several elements that led him to believe and proclaim such things: 1. He saw a need for the world that could be met by his capability, to essentially reinvent meditation as something practical for the householder. 2. As with any endeavor that speaks to our heart, he wanted as many as possible to take it up. 3. Since the technique is easy to learn and practice he saw it as easily accepted. 4. His vision was to benefit the whole world, not a subset of it. As to whether he misjudged the difficulty of the task, I doubt it. The goal was initially to spread TM to one percent of the world's population, because that is what he thought would enlighten, or awaken, the world. As the task progressed, so did the dynamics; the interplay between the silence being awakened and brought into the world, by all our tiny little meditating brains. So his formulas changed, as the world changed. Perhaps your question is whether or not he failed in his mission to enlighten the world. That I cannot answer. The only thing I know for certain is that he brought enlightenment to the world. What the world chooses to do with it is the world's business, far more than it is mine. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. It's extremely common for entrepreneurs to expect the world to lap up whatever new product or service the inventor is offering. Because this behavior is so widespread, I suspect Maharishi's naivete is more a function of his reclusive background and the entrepreneur's tendency to expect the moon. In other words, I don't attribute it to his easy and simple awareness per se. The best writers/singers/whatevers are often not the most popular. Of course, if one defines best in terms of most popular, that's not the case. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
On Mar 3, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote: dying is easier than I thought :-) Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday. All the better reason to practice dying now :-). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state itself? I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems easy and simple to him, could that sense have been what misled him to think it would be easy and simple for him to convince most everyone in the world to take up TM? Personally I think it was several elements that led him to believe and proclaim such things: 1. He saw a need for the world that could be met by his capability, to essentially reinvent meditation as something practical for the householder. 2. As with any endeavor that speaks to our heart, he wanted as many as possible to take it up. 3. Since the technique is easy to learn and practice he saw it as easily accepted. 4. His vision was to benefit the whole world, not a subset of it. As to whether he misjudged the difficulty of the task, I doubt it. The goal was initially to spread TM to one percent of the world's population, because that is what he thought would enlighten, or awaken, the world. As the task progressed, so did the dynamics; the interplay between the silence being awakened and brought into the world, by all our tiny little meditating brains. So his formulas changed, as the world changed. Perhaps your question is whether or not he failed in his mission to enlighten the world. No, I was simply wondering whether the easy and simple sense could be misleading. Whether or not in retrospect some time hence it will be seen that MMY succeeded in his mission, it does seem clear that he underestimated the difficulty of the task, at least from the way he talked about it. Maybe he knew all along it wasn't going to be as easy as he made it sound. So I guess that's another question: Did he or didn't he know how tough it was going to be? And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? *Action* in enlightenment is presumably effortless, in other words, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a *given* course of action is going to easily reach the goal. I suppose it goes back to the question of whether what the enlightened person thinks is the goal is the same as the goal nature has in mind. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- Vaj wrote: Gillam wrote: --- Vaj wrote: dying is easier than I thought :-) Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday. All the better reason to practice dying now :-). I've pursued enlightenment in hopes it would make life easier. Funny that its ultimate payoff may be to make death easier. Too bad I'm not allowed to give TM intro lectures anymore. I could have added that benefit. P.S. When I asked my sister what benefits she was noticing after doing TM for three months, she said, Well, my death wish isn't as strong as it used to be. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- Vaj wrote: In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Vaj wrote: In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline. Who ya gonna call? BodhiBusters. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
judy writes: snipped And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? TomT: The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears that an awake one has no desires. The full appreceation of the thought includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation. No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
On Mar 3, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote: In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline. You know after I wrote that I realized debunking was probably a bad word.My friends had invited me along simply because they wanted me there in case he tried to pull anything. So I really went along simply as a friend and really, as an observer. However once we were there and started talking to Robin a certain feeling started to develop that was unmistakeable. It wasn't until the very end, spontaneously, I just did it. Still don't think he knew what happened, but for all of us there, it was sufficient. Quite honestly this type of thing is really uncharacteristic of me, I'm not typically one for barnstorming zen tactics. But for my friends it was like being lifted from a curse and we all felt better just having a clear perspective on Robin Woodsworth Carlsen.Honestly I think claims of enlightenment debunk themselves. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I guess that's another question: Did he or didn't he know how tough it was going to be? And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? *Action* in enlightenment is presumably effortless, in other words, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a *given* course of action is going to easily reach the goal. I suppose it goes back to the question of whether what the enlightened person thinks is the goal is the same as the goal nature has in mind. I'd say that overall, life after awakening is not as fractured and fractious as it was before, so there is more a sense of ease and confidence that desires will be satisfied, one way or the other. The rigidity of the unawakened mind is an indication that it is unsatisfied and so must achieve specific things in very specific ways in order to meet its self-defined criteria for satisfaction. The awakened mind on the other hand, has paradoxically many more resources at its disposal, and although there isn't the 'make it or break it' mentality applied to achieving desires, due to the self- sufficent nature of the mind, desires are more often achieved than not. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. I don't think the first part of this last sentence necessarily implies the second part. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. I don't think the first part of this last sentence necessarily implies the second part. Neither the second part of the first sentence. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: judy writes: snipped And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? TomT: The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears that an awake one has no desires. I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat answers. Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-called channeler. Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. What ever happened to meditate and act? Anonyff The full appreceation of the thought includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation. No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat answers. snip That's kind of like taking exception to the fact that out of six billion humans on this planet, if they were asked to generally describe themselves, most would include in their description that they had two arms and two legs... Also, keep in mind that Tom is just talking about the *inner* state of the awakened person. As we have read, heard, quoted and thought about, at least a zillion times, from the Gita, it says the state of consciousness of a person can't be determined by their outside actions. Yep, still true. Also, from waking state, or non-awakened state, there is no way to intellectually `get' this sense of true equanimity that Tom describes. It can only be understood as mood-making from waking state. The mind is not permanently satisfied if we are not Awake. Therefore the only way it understands equanimity is to assume a false state of evenness, because it isn't settled. The mind in Unawake state is still at odds with itself. So Tom isn't talking about external actions or fake evenness, he's just stating the obvious about being Awake. Nothing more than ever changing perfect coordination between the person and their ever changing environment. Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else Yep, diversity continues, with no attempt at stopping it, categorizing it, slowing it down or thinking about it too much. and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. What ever happened to meditate and act? I give up, what? Anonyff The full appreceation of the thought includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation. No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Personally, and in all seriousness, I still believe it is ALL conjecture and overall, I'm sorry I spent so much of my life believing in this stuff. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote: I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat answers. snip That's kind of like taking exception to the fact that out of six billion humans on this planet, if they were asked to generally describe themselves, most would include in their description that they had two arms and two legs... Also, keep in mind that Tom is just talking about the *inner* state of the awakened person. As we have read, heard, quoted and thought about, at least a zillion times, from the Gita, it says the state of consciousness of a person can't be determined by their outside actions. Yep, still true. Also, from waking state, or non-awakened state, there is no way to intellectually `get' this sense of true equanimity that Tom describes. It can only be understood as mood-making from waking state. The mind is not permanently satisfied if we are not Awake. Therefore the only way it understands equanimity is to assume a false state of evenness, because it isn't settled. The mind in Unawake state is still at odds with itself. So Tom isn't talking about external actions or fake evenness, he's just stating the obvious about being Awake. Nothing more than ever changing perfect coordination between the person and their ever changing environment. Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else Yep, diversity continues, with no attempt at stopping it, categorizing it, slowing it down or thinking about it too much. and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. What ever happened to meditate and act? I give up, what? Anonyff The full appreceation of the thought includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation. No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: judy writes: snipped And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? TomT: The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears that an awake one has no desires. I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat answers. Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-called channeler. Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. What ever happened to meditate and act? Anonyff Yes Anonyff there is some sense of limitation here just as you describe. Half digested Tolle sprinkled with some Byron Katy and some Ramana on the side served fast food style. Repeat as necessary. It's givving me heartburn, it sure ain't shaktipat. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: judy writes: snipped And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? TomT: The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears that an awake one has no desires. I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the life/mindset/emotional state of the awake ones to these kinds of pat answers. Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so- called channeler. Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. What ever happened to meditate and act? Anonyff Yes Anonyff there is some sense of limitation here just as you describe. Half digested Tolle sprinkled with some Byron Katy and some Ramana on the side served fast food style. Repeat as necessary. It's givving me heartburn, it sure ain't shaktipat. Ha-Ha-HA! Yeah, believe what HE says! All is Lost! Kali's lap dog returns!!! Waking State Incarnate! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: judy writes: snipped And if he didn't, was it because the state of enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple *when it really isn't*? Is it possible that the easy and simple sense applies on some level other than the practical one of achieving a goal, but that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly think it applies to achieving the goal? TomT: The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears that an awake one has no desires. The full appreceation of the thought includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation. No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T Of course, is it always obvious, even to the awake one, what the next thing to do is? MMY, when he first made the statement Damn Democracy, sounded taken aback at his own words. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. I don't think the first part of this last sentence necessarily implies the second part. The pundit project was successful - it was the focal pt for raising well over $200 million over the yrs. Why bother delivering the product if you can keep raising capital over and over with the same business plan? The project was only partially successful. Thousands of pundits were trained, and millions of dollars worth of buildings built. Various issues created a situatino where the final goal was never realized. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- sparaig wrote: --- Gillam wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks. What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, without attachment to the result. I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened. But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig wrote: --- Gillam wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks. What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, without attachment to the result. I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened. But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff. Well, that is one way to look at it, probably more *enlightened* than my view. I don't think Maharishi acts w/o attachement. I don't think all his damning of democracy, acting petulant when world leaders won't listen to his ideas, etc. are the acts of someone who is non-attached. IMO this whole notion of non-attachment is merely a concept and who knows if anyone here truly even understands it and even if they could, could they really explain it in such a way that the listener would a) be able to truly grok it and b) not be influenced by it to such a degree that they would try emulating this non-attached state thinking that by acting non-attached they actually were non-attached? It all sounds like some ego-Olympics where those who think they get it get to sound off and aggrandize themselves v. simply living the life. From my perspective, people living from this level would be much simpler than all of what goes on here. But that may be/is just my own viewpoint. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig wrote: --- Gillam wrote: --- tom traynor wrote: What ever they attempt is easy and simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen. Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just that: throw out countless ideas until one sticks. What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, without attachment to the result. I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened. But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff. There's nothing unenlightened about working as hard as possible to fulfill a plan or goal. MMY seems to apply unequal measures of hard work to various plans or goals he comes up with. This may be due to some intellectual evaluation of each plan/goal, or due to some intuitive go with the flow thing, or perhaps, a bit of both. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Anonyff writes: snipped Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. Tom T: Well not really intellectualizing just trying to answer a question that seemed to have been raised. In the past I have also posted as YES to all the above things you have posted above minus the intellectualizing and mental masturbation comment. If you come in to the middle of a movie you don't always know all the previous dialog. I don't repeat what I may have posted two years ago. To do so would make this a very cumbersome exchange. All I am posting now is a continuation of everything I posted before. I don't see how you can expect to understand everything that goes on here when you pick it up midstream. The relative body still has all the foibles of a relative body. On the other hand is an inner knowingness of all is perfect in the flow of the NOW. This is how it is for me. I am sharing only because it might just open some others to the possibilities. Yours may be totally different. Some here may have a similar view and/or understanding that is not complete for them. Occasionally some here seem to connect with some of my experiences/understandings/knowingness that has increased knowingness for them. My favorite way of explaining it is to think of a Baskins and Robbins store with 6 billion/trillion flavors. You CAN have it your way, Another way to say it is each human has a truly unique set of DNA how could it not be different. TomT Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Tom (anonyff replied): Sorry for the *tone* of my previous post, although I did mean it, in that moment, exactly as I said it. FYI I have been reading and contributing to FF LIfe for at least 2 years and probably more like 3+ (how long has it been around?). I just changed my name and use the anonyff handle because I ended up embarrassed by some of the things I said as myself. I'm willing to acknowlege that at this moment in time, I am experiencing a *limited* very bound version of myself and from there comes my expression of hostility towards those who claim sometning different. (Envy perhaps?) I have had the experience, over the long years, of becoming very unboounded and, as it says in the 9th mandala, liquid, loveable, and wise. It never lasted more than maybe five minutes. During those moments I experienced what I can only describe as an infinite flow, a knowledge that I was infinite, eternal and unbounded. Thanks for your generous reply. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anonyff writes: snipped Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely, tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a form of severe mental masturbation. Tom T: Well not really intellectualizing just trying to answer a question that seemed to have been raised. In the past I have also posted as YES to all the above things you have posted above minus the intellectualizing and mental masturbation comment. If you come in to the middle of a movie you don't always know all the previous dialog. I don't repeat what I may have posted two years ago. To do so would make this a very cumbersome exchange. All I am posting now is a continuation of everything I posted before. I don't see how you can expect to understand everything that goes on here when you pick it up midstream. The relative body still has all the foibles of a relative body. On the other hand is an inner knowingness of all is perfect in the flow of the NOW. This is how it is for me. I am sharing only because it might just open some others to the possibilities. Yours may be totally different. Some here may have a similar view and/or understanding that is not complete for them. Occasionally some here seem to connect with some of my experiences/understandings/knowingness that has increased knowingness for them. My favorite way of explaining it is to think of a Baskins and Robbins store with 6 billion/trillion flavors. You CAN have it your way, Another way to say it is each human has a truly unique set of DNA how could it not be different. TomT Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
on 3/3/06 10:37 PM, anonyff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI I have been reading and contributing to FF LIfe for at least 2 years and probably more like 3+ (how long has it been around?). Since Sept. 5, 2001 - 6 days before 9/11 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: so who regularly disses who for what claim of experience or non- experience? My own take on people who claim to be in full-blown brahman consciousness is that MMY has, from what Ihave heard, said that someone who is fully in Unity (and brahman con. transcends Unity, I hear) can manifest any ole siddhi he chooses to. That being the case, anyone who claims Brahman Consciousness should have had at least one full-blown experience of floating for 5-30 mintues while practicing the Yogic FLying technique since, even if the TM- Sidhis techniques are entirely bogus, mere intent is all that is required for someone in Unity to perform a siddhi. Someday you should learn to take what Maharishisez with the necessary shaker of salt. AFAIK, he is pretty much *alone* in the spiritual world at suggesting this criterion for full enlightenment. *History* certainly doesn't agree with him; it is full of people who have been regarded as fully enlightened, and who have *never* exhibited any of the siddhis. It's an apples and oranges thang, but even more so. The siddhis have absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment. The apples come from Venus and enlightenment comes from Mars. :-) Many non-enlightened people can perform the siddhis and many enlightened people cannot. The *only* reason Maharishi tried to suggest a link between the two is that he was trying to SELL the siddhis as a pathway to enlightenment. Gee, Barry, you seem to have inadvertently deleted what Lawson was responding to from your post. Let me help you out and restore it: Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Now read what Lawson wrote again, *in response to what you wrote*, and see if you can figure out why your comment here is a complete non sequitur. Hint: Look closely at the first sentence of Lawson's response. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness on 3/2/06 11:14 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would you like to see the scar on my ass? I'd love to show that to you! :-) Reminds me of Forrest Gump and LBJ. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip perhaps I felt it in bad form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about it in public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of experiences and so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point of non-discussion of experience? Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there to brag about? The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one, because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of the folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I personally feel that it is important to let people know that ordinary chumps, like me, can achieve such a state. Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things clearly. Plain and simple. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever* been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like everyone else does. I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused him a great deal of discomfort. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever* been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like everyone else does. I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused him a great deal of discomfort. Probably as a result of so many people poking him with nails. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se. The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling enlightenment which doesnt necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip perhaps I felt it in bad form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about it in public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of experiences and so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point of non-discussion of experience? Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there to brag about? The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one, because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of the folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I personally feel that it is important to let people know that ordinary chumps, like me, can achieve such a state. Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. What bar is there that one needs to pass under/over to be enlightened? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote: but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se. But your expectation about what samadhi is or isn't colors your perception of the story. The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. How do you know its extremely rare? Who says that such a state, where one can be sure that one won't scream, exists? What tradition gives this as a test? Zen stories speak of the guys who can meditate under a waterfall. I've meditated in a dentist's chair with the dentist drilling out a tooth. People can meditate while in extreme pain from broken bones, waiting foran ambulance. What specifically is there about the nail that makes this story important to you? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se. The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling ³enlightenment² which doesn¹t necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice? As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming isn't relevant to witnessing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming isn't relevant to witnessing. He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to go into a state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. In other words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced that that ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more like a specialized sidhi. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming isn't relevant to witnessing. He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to go into a state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. In other words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced that that ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more like a specialized sidhi. Of course the senses are withdrawn whenever one has samadhi during meditation, but 1) I've never heard it claimed that this would preclude waking up in an emergency and 2) wasn't this during a lecture? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming isn't relevant to witnessing. Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is mis- or over-interpreting this?Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi? Had you forgotten about that? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
On Mar 2, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling “enlightenment” which doesn’t necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?It's all going to hinge on how you define the english word "enlightenment". Very vague word. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness on 3/2/06 3:53 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi? Yes, I told that story, having heard it from somewhere. There are also stories of Maharishi and Amma doing this. The Maharishi story, as I heard it, was that he was in some mountain cabin in California where he wanted to be left alone for a while to work on a book or something. There was a big snow storm and people couldnt get up there for a few days. When they finally did, they found him sitting in samadhi, half covered with snow, with the window open. When he came out he was none the worse for wear. Dont know the veracity of the story. Had you forgotten about that? No. Im sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that Im not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But thats really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote: No. Im sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that Im not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But thats really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed. I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed. One of Maharishis secretaries told me that Maharishis weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I dont know if they were all that way. I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas. Hadnt heard that. Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word. Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own. Did you master them? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- jim_flanegin wrote: --- Rick Archer wrote: Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things clearly. Plain and simple. To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
On Mar 2, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.One of Maharishi’s secretaries told me that Maharishi’s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don’t know if they were all that way.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hadn’t heard that.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.Did you master them? Not by a long shot, but dying is easier than I thought :-), it's coming back that can be difficult. These are practices done over a lifetime. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed. One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way. Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before his birthday in January, when he proclaims the theme for the coming year? I remember seeing a tape of his address just after supposedly coming out of silence one year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very blissful. It's the only time I recall seeing him wearing anything over his white outfit. We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail when he came out. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: --- Rick Archer wrote: Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things clearly. Plain and simple. To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. Isn't choiceless awareness Krishnamurti's version of this? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: --- Rick Archer wrote: Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things clearly. Plain and simple. To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. Yes, Byron Katie's method of enquiry is really useful in unraveling stories stored in the mind. Clutter. And yes, the experience of the mind after awakening is like always starting with a clean slate, moment by moment, seeing anything in utter simplicity and utter profundity. Preconceptions are just there out of habit or due to fear. Without them, the world appears as it truly is, far deeper and more beautiful than we used to think it was. Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the course of daily life as being useful. Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a much larger raise than what I was seeking. But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we are awake. And how it begins to operate completely differently than what we thought before, caught up in all our stories and illusions and preconceptions. And at the same time, it is far more real, far more simple, and far more natural and gratifying than it ever was before. Thanks for your comments. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
on 3/2/06 8:48 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed. One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way. Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before his birthday in January, when he proclaims the theme for the coming year? Yes. I remember seeing a tape of his address just after supposedly coming out of silence one year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very blissful. It's the only time I recall seeing him wearing anything over his white outfit. He had a Chartreuse shawl over his shoulders. Still wore the dhoti. We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail when he came out. Yes. I've been there several times when he came out. Very profound darshan, although now I wonder if he was acting a bit to embellish the impression. Maybe sometimes he didn't eat or drink during silence, but one of his secretaries told me that sometimes he did. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the course of daily life as being useful. Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a much larger raise than what I was seeking. But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we are awake. Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that sense of easy and simple ever misleading? I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why he assumed most everyone in the world would take to TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments would leap at it, and so on. are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state itself? Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple in concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's standpoint. On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: --- Rick Archer wrote: Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things clearly. Plain and simple. This is very much in line with the Buddhist approach to enlightenment. One definition I've heard from Buddhist teachers of the state is, Enlightenment is perception without mental modification. *Any* mental modification. I think that one of the things that rings false in some people's reported experiences of enlightenment is that they attempt to make the experiences fit into the descriptions of such experiences they have been fed by their tradition. They *color* the stories of their own personal experiences in such a way that they seem to be more in line with what other members of the organization were told about what such experiences should be like. Or -- another common phenomenon -- they describe their experiences such that it appears they fall into one of the pat descriptions of *stages* of enlightenment -- CC, GC, UC, BC, or whatever the various flavors of experiences are labeled by their tradition. That's one reason I find reports such as Jim's valuable. He rarely, if ever, tries to do this. He just talks about what he experiences, without trying to color it or define it in any way *as* anything; they're just his stories of what is, for him. To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she hammered toward the end of her book -- seeing things as they really are. But she never elaborated on it. Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. Preconceptions are always just that -- pre-conceptions. They're what one expects the baby to look like and be like before any actual screwing has taken place. :-) When the baby actually *is* conceived and pops out, it doesn't necessarily look like or act like what was expected. And that's Ok. But some parents have a tendency to try to *make* it into what they expected. The kid's playing in the sandbox, clearly blissed out drawing in the sand, enjoying being an artist, and the parents are already planning its career as a lawyer, because they were told that all enlightenment babies are lawyers. :-) :-) :-) Back in Fiuggi, I knew about half a dozen folks who were having flashes of awakening. At first they were quite happy describing them *as they were*, as 24/7 transcendence, along with whatever else was going on in the foreground of life. Then Maharishi gave a lecture in which he suggested that one of the qualities of CC was X. Within days, all of these people were talking about X. No one had ever mentioned X before, or seemingly even thought about X before, but the moment it was an *expected* component of CC, they added it to their stories of their own personal experiences. In other words, in my opinion, not being stabilized in their experience, they were attempting to *color* it and *make them into* what such experiences were supposed to be like. What was obvious from my point of view was that the joy had gone out of their stories. Before this event, when these people had been talking about what was for them, you could *feel* the energy behind their words, the sense of newness and excitement that they were feeling. The moment they switched to telling stories about what they were supposed to be experiencing, all of that joy went out of the words. It was just people telling stories that had been told to them. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Tom T: Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. Tom T And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...
On Feb 28, 2006, at 11:05 PM, purushaz wrote:---Statement below (Enlightened person has an option to stop pain) is incorrect. Enlightenment does not imply particular (or any) Siddhis, which have to do with relative endeavors.. Why stop with control over pain? Why not say that Enlightened people can fly through the air 108 miles? Show me a text that Enlightened people can control pain and I'll swallow some nails. The original story referred to people in a particular style of samadhi. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. The 'hiss' is the sound of self-loathing. I'm not talking just about the manifestation of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about what it seems to be like in *all* of the groups I've seen it appear in. The things that the critics harp on when lash- ing out at those who report enlightenment experiences are always the same. The faults they home in on are always the things that the critics believe are wrong with *themselves*. The critics believe that these traits are the things that keep them from realization, so when they encounter someone who claims to have experienced realization and yet still has some of the traits that they loathe in themselves, it creates a strong sense of cognitive dissonance. At this point, the critics have a choice -- either they can accept that the things they believe keep them from their own realization are fictions in their own minds, with no basis in reality, or they can reject the enlightenment of their fellow seekers who display these traits. The choice is simple. The ego would *much* rather attack than admit it made a fundamental error (*much less* that it doesn't even exist). So the more visible and vocal the seekers who have experienced enlightenment get, the more abrasive and abusive the critics get. The critics' quest becomes a sick form of Vaj's pin-sticking test. The critics start to badger the seekers who claim realization, doing whatever they can think of to make them angry, to get them to react in some way so they can turn to their fellow critics and say, See! Look at that anger! I *told* you so-and-so wasn't enlightened. It's really the same scene in *every* organization I've ever encountered in which someone was open about their enlightenment experiences. The cycle of criticism and abuse continues until -- all too often -- the person who has claimed the realization experiences is driven out of the organization. Then the critics have succeeded. There is no longer anyone around to point out that all their excuses for not being enlightened are just that, excuses. They can go back to hiding from realiz- ation, hiding behind the faults they think keep enlightenment at bay, when in reality, it is their own fear that keeps enlightenment away. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Peter wrote:--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Tom T: Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. Tom T And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. The 'hiss' is the sound of self-loathing. I'm not talking just about the manifestation of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about what it seems to be like in *all* of the groups I've seen it appear in. Have you observed groups in which this phenomenon has not appeared? TM and Waking Down are the only spiritual groups I've been involved with, and I've never encountered this phenomenon in Waking Down. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I'm not talking just about the manifestation of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about what it seems to be like in *all* of the groups I've seen it appear in. Have you observed groups in which this phenomenon has not appeared? TM and Waking Down are the only spiritual groups I've been involved with, and I've never encountered this phenomenon in Waking Down. I think that some of the groups from the Ramana Maharshi tradition do Ok, although as Vaj and others point out, there can be a lot of almost co-dependent mood-making in those groups. At least they don't go out of their way to make someone who has had a realization experience feel like shit. The best scenario I ever saw was in a Tibetan group. That particular group reflected a trad- ition that had been around a *long* time, and had thus developed their own teachings for what to do and say when one of the students starts having experiences like this. I think that the situation I described before tends to come up in groups where the teacher really doesn't have a *clue* what to say to someone who is beginning to have enlightenment experiences, and in fact abdicates his respons- ibilities by creating an atmosphere in which students are subtly discouraged from mentioning such experiences. I suspect that Maharishi falls into that class of teacher. He doesn't deal with the situation because to do so would reveal his total lack of knowledge about what to say or do. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. The 'hiss' is the sound of self-loathing. I'm not talking just about the manifestation of this phenomenon in the TM world, but about what it seems to be like in *all* of the groups I've seen it appear in. Have you observed groups in which this phenomenon has not appeared? TM and Waking Down are the only spiritual groups I've been involved with, and I've never encountered this phenomenon in Waking Down. FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. On the other hand, I've encountered a certain degree of confusion about the nature of responsibility for behavior in enlightenment-- i.e., folks who were hesitant to criticize the behavior of those who claimed enlightenment, and folks who claimed enlightenment rejecting criticism of their behavior on the grounds that it was really Nature doing the behaving. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Peter wrote: --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Tom T: Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. Tom T And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence? Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does sound interesting. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Is Fred in MUM's good graces, (still on the reservation, on the program, studying or supported under the MUM umbrella, etc. ? JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson legacy. Thanks Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
on 3/1/06 10:03 AM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Is Fred in MUM's good graces, (still on the reservation, on the program, studying or supported under the MUM umbrella, etc. ? Totally. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson legacy. Thanks Now that was a fun and crazy time at MIU and the greater community. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. I remember in the 70s there was some tendency to look up to certain people who were rumored to have good experiences on courses, but it's been just the opposite for some time now. Saying anything public about being enlightened is cause for blacklisting at MUM - now tmers are deferential to people who have been given titles by MMY. I don't know if this is true about the Travis studies, but it used to be policy at MUM that any study reg. higher states could only be done using subjects with valid dome badges -- the idea of someone without a valid badge having enlightened experiences was not acceptable. Personally I'm wary of anyone making E claims and prefer orgs that don't even use the word. IMO, energywise, being enlightened is just the new age-eastern version of being saved by Jesus. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:16 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:Personally I'm wary of anyone making E claims and prefer orgs that don't even use the word. IMO, energywise, "being enlightened" is just the new age-eastern version of "being saved by Jesus". I loved this! Yes, you've described the conversion experience also present in some satsang cultures. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
on 3/1/06 10:02 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson legacy. Thanks It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a lot of converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. This made a lot of people around here very leery about anyone who proclaims their enlightenment. The attitude seems to be that real enlightenment is a very lofty goal that ordinary chumps like us are very unlikely to have attained, and that shouldn't be considered genuine unless Maharishi confirms it, which he never does, and that if you've got something good going on, you should keep it to yourself or let Fred Travis study you privately. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up forrealization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring upthe possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsangculture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it doessound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness.There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness.. on 3/1/06 10:23 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote: And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence? Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does sound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. All thats a bit much for my simple brain. All I can say is that I get high as a kite in those meetings, and the effect is cumulative. Ive seen a number of people undergo dramatic, life-changing, and apparently permanent shifts. Exactly what state theyre shifting to, and exactly what state the already-shifted ones are in, who can say? But something good is happening. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- Rick Archer wrote: jim_flanegin wrote: Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson legacy. Thanks It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a lot of converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though she gave him a different name) in her book, Collision with the Infinite. As I recall, he doesn't come across looking too good. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know if this is true about the Travis studies, but it used to be policy at MUM that any study reg. higher states could only be done using subjects with valid dome badges -- the idea of someone without a valid badge having enlightened experiences was not acceptable. That is such an unbelievable hoot! Talk about unbiased science leverage? blackmail? :-) I guess it has to do with who pays the bills. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Rick Archer wrote: jim_flanegin wrote: Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson legacy. Thanks It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a lot of converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though she gave him a different name) in her book, Collision with the Infinite. As I recall, he doesn't come across looking too good. Yup, and his right hand man that she called William. She wasn't really up-front about what she thought, but the context was pretty clear. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Rick Archer wrote: jim_flanegin wrote: Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on "the Robin Carlson legacy". Thanks It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was enlightened, set himself up as a "World Teacher," and attracted a lot of converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though she gave him a different name) in her book, "Collision with the Infinite." As I recall, he doesn't come across looking too good. In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment, but when it was all over and done, we were all convinced this man was without a doubt, a fraud. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
Very nice post. Satsang as a way of weaving ever more subtle self-delusions. Not being much of a Satsanger, I wouldn't know for sure, but it sounds very plausible. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated. Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this awakening forming a web of agreement. A gentlements agreement is silently reached I support your enlightenment and you support mine--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of enlightmentees grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often tested in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This pointing out is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or awakened. This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting. I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness. There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more "neoadvaita" kind of gathering.On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:50 AM, feste37 wrote:Very nice post. Satsang as a way of weaving ever more subtle self-delusions. Not being much of a Satsanger, I wouldn't know for sure, but it sounds very plausible. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence? Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does sound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness.There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness.. on 3/1/06 10:57 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more neoadvaita kind of gathering. Were you referring to the one in Fairfield? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the contrary. What I've observed has been a tendency to be deferential to those who claimed or were rumored to be enlightened. In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim enlightenment publicly. This I don't quite understand.If they were enlightened - free in fact -how could they have fear, or dependency of the movement? I mean if the movement would fire them, they wouldn't mind, right? It's understandable that someone thinks there is no need to come out, but fear, is this not a contradiction in itself? Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those people wouldn't dare go public. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/