RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhamiltony2k5 Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 10:53 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad Thanks Rick for keeping the FFL forum alive. It has been a community service. -Doug in FF You’re welcome. My pleasure. Not much work involved these days, although I do have some cool things to upload when I get around to it. FFL pretty much has a life of its own. Its success is due to the unique blend of people who were attracted to TM and then grew to the point where they could think outside the box. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1197 - Release Date: 12/25/2007 8:04 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Yes, i think your comment below deserves to be acknowledged. Yes, FairfieldLife has been for its existance an important place for the FFmeditating community over the years. A lot has gone through the TMmill here FFL has been an important place for the TMcommunity where there is not much of open forum otherwise for rendering things down. I hear this a lot on the street talking with people. Evidently a lot of people have lurked here all along still do. The real work though has been with Rick Archer hosting this place. Most lurk here some people do risk themselves posting here and yet it has often enough been towards a good of bringing more light to things. Yes,there has been work on that from many but the real persistent work has been with Rick. Thanks Rick for keeping the FFL forum alive. It has been a community service. -Doug in FF --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment below: **snip to end** Hey, Doug, what do you suggest? I pretty much figure that a forum like FFL where people who have been deeply involved in the TMO now have the opportunity to share notes and essentially debrief our experiences and our thoughts about them with others is helping anyone who either participates, or lurks (and anyone else still in the TMO who comes into contact with any of the ideas bandied about here). The value in having a working mind and an open heart and talking about this stuff with individuals similarly situated seems to be enough for me, but I'm curious as to what more you think can or should be done. Marek
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. What are you talking about? Do you think that my lack desire to do TM means that I am rejecting science? Do you believe that the research into the benifits of TM means that everyone should do it? Yes, that seems what Jon Hagelin in TMmovement-Jihad-eese-speak does constantly push and MMY as the spiritual leader argues too and they are scientists. Seems that this is the weight of the logical conclusion of the science. That the research into the benifits of TM means that everyone should do it. To quote another radical intellectual leader of TM-jihad, The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. Is where the battleground of spiritual warfare has gone to now. Extensive published research shows that coherence and positivity is created in collective consciousness when a small number of people practice the Transcendental Meditation and more advanced Yogic Flying techniques together in a group- The Invincible America Assembly is raising the quality of collective consciousness and behavior throughout society to be more harmonious, more life supporting. And Nature is responding more positively. End of story Yes, evidently means that everyone should do it in one form or another for many good reasons. -Doug in FF Hagelin's current TMmovement thoughts Published in the Fairfield Daily Ledger: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157620 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. That is fairly common in science, and that is why the rigor aspect needs to be constantly refined, and a lot of the TM research was found be more robust than most studies in any science. But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. I won't go down that road. THE ONLY (I stress, THE ONLY) way for people to agree on things in the world are through study and replication under validated conditions. A LOT of the most important research on TM is robust, and only anti-science freaks bring up the argument that if 1 in 10 of them is not strong, then they are, by default , ALL of them weak. That is the way of the Neocons and I am appalled to see so many people here on FFL, like Boo, Ru, Poo, Lurk, Turq, Smirk, Jurk, Curt, and Burt, all acting EXACTLY like the Neocons when something in science does not suit their opinion. I am appalled. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Yes, that seems what Jon Hagelin in TMmovement-Jihad-eese-speak does constantly push and MMY as the spiritual leader argues too and they are scientists. Oh the surety of youth, how charming...wait a second, that dude is even older than me! I guess I mean that I used to think that way in the surety of my own, long lost, youth! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. What are you talking about? Do you think that my lack desire to do TM means that I am rejecting science? Do you believe that the research into the benifits of TM means that everyone should do it? Yes, that seems what Jon Hagelin in TMmovement-Jihad-eese-speak does constantly push and MMY as the spiritual leader argues too and they are scientists. Seems that this is the weight of the logical conclusion of the science. That the research into the benifits of TM means that everyone should do it. To quote another radical intellectual leader of TM-jihad, The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. Is where the battleground of spiritual warfare has gone to now. Extensive published research shows that coherence and positivity is created in collective consciousness when a small number of people practice the Transcendental Meditation and more advanced Yogic Flying techniques together in a group- The Invincible America Assembly is raising the quality of collective consciousness and behavior throughout society to be more harmonious, more life supporting. And Nature is responding more positively. End of story Yes, evidently means that everyone should do it in one form or another for many good reasons. -Doug in FF Hagelin's current TMmovement thoughts Published in the Fairfield Daily Ledger: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157620 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. That is fairly common in science, and that is why the rigor aspect needs to be constantly refined, and a lot of the TM research was found be more robust than most studies in any science. But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. I won't go down that road. THE ONLY (I stress, THE ONLY) way for people to agree on things in the world are through study and replication under validated conditions. A LOT of the most important research on TM is robust, and only anti-science freaks bring up the argument that if 1 in 10 of them is not strong, then they are, by default , ALL of them weak. That is the way of the Neocons and I am appalled to see so many people here on FFL, like Boo, Ru, Poo, Lurk, Turq, Smirk, Jurk, Curt, and Burt, all acting EXACTLY like the Neocons when something in science does not suit their opinion. I am appalled. OffWorld
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
On Dec 22, 2007, at 9:41 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Oh the surety of youth, how charming...wait a second, that dude is even older than me! I guess I mean that I used to think that way in the surety of my own, long lost, youth! Well if you can actually *remember* your own long, lost youth, Curtis, you're doing pretty well. :) Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **snip** Yes, judging against even the TMmovement peer-review research as evidence, the names of every raja could easily be woven into their indictments on crimes against humanity. Clearly their involvement and performance in this is grounds to bring them before the world court on crimes against humanity of great Spiritual ineptitude. These are not spiritual teachers but egomaniacs who have turned the clock of humanity backwards with bad theatre. Help Call the grand jury of the world court of humanity. This is bad. Off with their hats! **snip** Marek, fine but now help now with the indictment. Use your skill of mind to help humanity if not just in civil right but spiritual. Their hubris is extreme and extremely small in their way. Their spiritual arrogance is extreme. Outrageous. Help a world contain this TMOcommunity mischeiviousness amongst us. Come along. You could help a lot of people. Yes, The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. **snip** Are you with us? Free the believers. -Doug, in FF **snip to end** Hey, Doug, what do you suggest? I pretty much figure that a forum like FFL where people who have been deeply involved in the TMO now have the opportunity to share notes and essentially debrief our experiences and our thoughts about them with others is helping anyone who either participates, or lurks (and anyone else still in the TMO who comes into contact with any of the ideas bandied about here). The value in having a working mind and an open heart and talking about this stuff with individuals similarly situated seems to be enough for me, but I'm curious as to what more you think can or should be done. Marek
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Two excellent posts. My comments to both below, interspersed: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. Indeed. If it were *just* doing the research and allowing 1) other researchers to become intrigued enough to want to replicate it, or 2) allowing other people to draw their *own* conclusions from it, that would be cool. That is not the case with the TM research. Noo. It has to be *spun* to prove the decades-old claims and the centuries-old dogma. The classic case is this latest press release for the meta-study. It was almost certainly written by someone who has never practiced any other technique of meditation other than TM, and who would be supremely uncomfortable if he had to be in the same room with someone who practiced another technique. And what does is SAY? What conclusions does it draw from the meta-study, however valuable some of the individual studies might be? Well, duh...it says that TM is the best. It is designed to *force* a conclusion that is not necessarily present in the data, and to use that conclusion to sell a product with a hefty price tag. While some of the research may be both rigorous and valuable, the *uses* to which it is put by the TM movement are neither. They are instances of True Believers trying to force square pegs into round holes, and trying to sell more square pegs to others. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, NO. So Curtis states that he is open to scientific research. Thank God someone here FFL is not an anti-science freak ... **snip to end** Thanks for the insider perspective, Curtis. It seems to me that the whole universe (particularly human endeavor) is fundamentally and purely experimental in nature. You do something and something else happens; oftentimes it seems like there is a causal connection between the two events and to the degree that you like or dislike the second event you modify your behavior accordingly with the intention of either repeating or avoiding a same or similar result. The modified behavior may or may not produce the result you anticipate and you modify behavior again. All subsequent behavior and experience branch out from there. We all keep doing this throughout our lives and apparently that's the way the universe goes about its business, too. The experiment with religion that we humans are so enthralled with just seems to have a long data collection timeline compared to a human lifetime and it seems to have to go through many generations of human experimenters and many different iterations of form before enough data will have been compiled before a significant portion of the population come to a different conclusion regarding its ultimate value (even though a lot of folks have come to a provisional decision regarding its worth based on other people's recommendations). Those of us who read and post at FFL, on the other hand, have all been lucky vis-a-vis our experience with Maharishi and the TMO in that we've had the opportunity to evaluate some of the results of this religion experiment with individuals who have been represented to be the fulfilled beneficiaries of the promise of religion (Maharishi, Guru Dev, Jim, Rory, Dr. Pete, Tom, etc.). (And for purposes of this post I take it as a given that the promise of Maharishi's programs, including his meditation, is the fulfillment of the standard promises of religion; not only his initial message with the SRM but even at the peak of the scientific charts and the Merv Griffin wave of initiations, that was spoken of openly and clearly; and the current use of language re the will of God is also a
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Stop saying that stuff about TM-jihad please. That is a fundamentlist's term and I am only interested in research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. I consider religion and other unproven philosophic ideas and techniques as a kind of poison to science. It must be given strong evidence, or move out the way. I don't care what it is, I only care about evidence under proper scientific peer-review. Dear Off_World, whoever you are, i think it is a brilliant position you take and try to entrench. I am with you on that. But, where is its virtue if it is not coupled with social progress? It is like you thrust with peer review science and then unable to stand up along with the argument you run the other way taking its conclusions with you. You could have been an ayatollah in the larger TM-jihad along with the likes of Jon Hagelin but you drop the banner? What are you afraid of in your thinking? That Rick or Alex might reveal your identity here and that you would get banned from the Dome? I am intriqued with your seeming virtue, whoever you are. Your seeming principle cool humility. Just on the brink as you deploy it, you then spurn TM-jihad by declining to lead it further. It is laid in your lap and you declined it. You could have been an Ayatollah. A spiritual leader of jihad. A Captain, a leader of citizen Meditators for the Age of Enlightenment. But no, you decline the power of your principle. [Power and even richesYou decline what could be vast offshore bank accounts for you too?] You decline the mantel of TM-jihad to hold only the rights of being ultra- conservative orthodox Mr. peer-review science. Is this a noble thing you argue here on principle and would give up everything else just to secure it in isolation. But to what end do you demure? Are you not up to such the power of your principle? You write here anonymously and back-peddle as fast as you can. Where are you going with this, with every fiber of your being? Have you an ambition with this and are you not up to it? I admire your peer-review position but wonder really about where you are with it in these times. With Best Regards, -Doug in FF --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. -OffWorld Dear Off_World, I am with you on this. Jon Hagelin is too and he is a bone-fide scientist apparently. Well, sorry, please don't put the word 'TM jihad' in my mouth. I am barely even talking about TM. I am talking about research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. TM has a lot, but I am adamantly talking about scientific process here, and respect for that. Not TM alone. And those who are not with us? Evidently negative tending social parasites as a TM-TB'er as Nabby might say it Dangerous to society by concluding your reasoning. I don't understand this point. Yes, research published in peer- reviewed respected scientific journals is king in the 21st century, if that it what you are asking. Jon Hagelin in the FF Ledger: Extensive published research shows that coherence and positivity is created in collective consciousness when a small number of people practice the Transcendental Meditation and more advanced Yogic Flying techniques together in a group- The Invincible America Assembly is raising the quality of collective consciousness and behavior throughout society to be more harmonious, more life supporting. And Nature is responding more positively. End of story I think this would be a good addition and replication to the previous research if, and only if, it gets published in a respected peer- reviewed scientific journal. Yes, that is my experience. Off_World, whoever you are, Luv to Thee Off_W in this your TM-jihad. That would be YOUR TM-jihad Doug. Not mine. Stop saying that stuff about TM-jihad please. That is a fundamentlist's term and I am only interested in research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. I consider religion and other unproven philosophic ideas and techniques as a kind of poison to science. It must be given strong evidence, or move out the way. I don't care what it is, I only care about evidence under proper scientific peer-review. Thanks, good luck with your jihad Doug. But for all those anti-science freaks on FFL, much as it pains them each time they hear it, the future belongs to research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. Get used to it. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Off_World, whoever you are, i think it is a brilliant position you take and try to entrench. I am with you on that. But, where is its virtue if it is not coupled with social progress? It is like you thrust with peer review science and then unable to stand up along with the argument you run the other way taking its conclusions with you. You could have been an ayatollah in the larger TM-jihad along with the likes of Jon Hagelin but you drop the banner? What are you afraid of in your thinking? That Rick or Alex might reveal your identity here and that you would get banned from the Dome? I am intriqued with your seeming virtue, whoever you are. Your seeming principle cool humility. Just on the brink as you deploy it, you then spurn TM-jihad by declining to lead it further. It is laid in your lap and you declined it. You could have been an Ayatollah. A spiritual leader of jihad. A Captain, a leader of citizen Meditators for the Age of Enlightenment. Not to *mention* having 72 virgins waiting for you in Bramhaloka if you get snuffed in the process of leading the TM-jihad. And the brilliant part of this, from the TMO point of view, is that they only need a *total* of 72 virgins. The TM-jihad martyrs die and go to Brahmaloka, and after they get there the 72 virgins *remain* virgins, because these dickless wonders can't think of anything to do with them except have them wash their robes and polish their crowns. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the only metric worth using is the measurement of how much social good does any action promote. Off_W you're trying to stay un-involved but what you think about this observation of Marek? Like, where are you going with your defending peer review TM research if not also a TM-jihad in these times, with any worthwhile metric? With every fibre of your being. Yes I am, and anything of any worth in this world takes time to plan and prepare as any scientifically minded person should know. OffWorld the only metric worth using is the measurement of how much social good does any action promote. -Doug in FF --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis reavismarek@ wrote: [Actually, I think it was you, Curtis, and/or New.Morning (among others) who got me thinking that the only metric worth using is the measurement of how much social good does any action promote. So I still feel meditation is an intelligent thing to do (quoting Richard Williams), both as an end in itself and as an adjunct to a good and purposeful life.] Comments [interleaved]: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Marek Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what I told them. I look back on that now and regret having bought into that mindset. That was an incorrect choice and bad behavior on my part. There are times when perfect candor may be inappropriate but for the most part honesty and transparency is better, particularly in promoting a program for the upliftment of society. To the degree Maharishi or anyone in the TMO has departed from that, then to that degree I feel that they have devalued their stated purpose and have failed. Nice to hear from you again Marek. As usual you served up some thoughtful material. I attribute my youthful (up to age 31 so not sooo young!) infatuation with pushing TM in its brochure sanitized form to be a result of my own lack of comfort living with imperfection. One of the greatest gifts of aging has been the necessity to accept life on imperfect terms that I would have rejected when I believed in perfection. Now the idea of perfection in any area of my life seems like such a boor. Definitely not something to aspire for anymore. [Yes, I agree, and similarly, when I left the movement and later stopped meditating for many years, one wonderful consequence was finally being able to be with people rather than draw some imaginary (but inviolate) distinction between them and me; that distinction being their status in re TM -- meditator/non- meditator. That fundamental difference made all the difference in how I related to that person from then on. One of the things I love about my work is the opportunity to learn firsthand how very much alike we all are regardless of how we place on the socio-economic or intellectural scales, or the spiritual scale for that matter.] I've been reading Jon Kabat-zin's books lately and tried his meditation a few times. It made me wonder what the result of MMY's life work is really. It does seem like a cool thing that he got so many people to take a chill pill and meditate. But then somehow it didn't seem to stick. I wonder if it was too much to ask for even 20 minutes twice a day. 10 minutes once a day might be more realistic. But then all the inflated claims about what meditation did for a person made it into a group of believers. I wonder if the sidhis knocked out most of the casual meditators. That was probably too bad. I think that the centering effect of meditaton may be something people would benefit from. But who wants to associate with a group that is claiming yogic flyers? Mostly people who can swallow some of the beliefs about TM's spiritual connection I guess. [Had never heard of Jon Kabat-zin until now; for sure I'm going to check into what he says/teaches. Can you say anything more about what you learned? It's trite to say, but I think that Maharishi just hit the mark when the time was ripe; and he had a good meditation that was particularly well-suited for the masses; there were a number of competing systems around the time when I learned, Ananda Marga, ISKCON, Stephen Gaskin, Ram Das, Krishnamurti, Rajneesh in the 80s. All those movements had pretty big numbers for a while but they didn't have the staying power of TM. I know of some people who learned TM in the 70s
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote:Stop saying that stuff about TM-jihad please. That is a fundamentlist's term and I am only interested in research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. I consider religion and other unproven philosophic ideas and techniques as a kind of poison to science. It must be given strong evidence, or move out the way. I don't care what it is, I only care about evidence under proper scientific peer-review. Dear Off_World, whoever you are, i think it is a brilliant position you take and try to entrench. I am with you on that. But, where is its virtue if it is not coupled with social progress? It is like you thrust with peer review science and then unable to stand up along with the argument you run the other way taking its conclusions with you. You could have been an ayatollah in the larger TM-jihad along with the likes of Jon Hagelin but you drop the banner? What are you afraid of in your thinking? That Rick or Alex might reveal your identity here and that you would get banned from the Dome? As I have said many times (MANY TIMES)My name is Tom Barlow, I live in Vermont. Nothing on planet earth can stop me going to the dome at the time and place of my choosing. I am intriqued with your seeming virtue, whoever you are. Your seeming principle cool humility. Just on the brink as you deploy it, you then spurn TM-jihad by declining to lead it further. Lol no-one listens to me, and even if they did, one day I would screw it up by doing something stupid erratic, and then the anti- science crowd like you and Shemp and Turq, etc would smear the whole of science with the personality of one person. That is the way of the anti-science freaks. That does not degrade the veracity of my point though, and I do have plans to do something about it, over the long-term, not just a short term news-splash. The future belongs to proper peer-review. Why do you keep calling it a TM-jihad when it has nothing to do with TM, it is about research published in peer-reviwed journals. I think you are trying to smear the messenger instead of deal with the message. That is typical of anti-science freaks like Fox news, George Bush, Ted Haggard, Condi Rice, and the Neocons. Typical anti- science behaviour. laid in your lap and you declined it. You could have been an Ayatollah. A spiritual leader of jihad. A Captain, a leader of citizen Meditators for the Age of Enlightenment. But no, you decline the power of your principle. [Power and even richesYou decline what could be vast offshore bank accounts for you too?] Deal with the points instead of engagingin a smear campaign. Typical anti-science behaviour. cline the mantel of TM-jihad to hold only the rights of being ultra- conservative orthodox Mr. peer-review science. Is this a noble thing you argue here on principle and would give up everything else just to secure it in isolation. But to what end do you demure? Are you not up to such the power of your principle? You write here anonymously and back-peddle as fast as you can. Where are you going with this, with every fiber of your being? Have you an ambition with this and are you not up to it? I admire your peer-review position but wonder really about where you are with it in these times. It is your own anti-science stance that you feel inside that you wonder about and you are afraid to admit it, and instead engage in a pathetic smear campaign without talking about my point, which is: only reaseach published in peer-reviewed scientific journals holds any clout in the 21st century, not your fundamantalist anti-science medieval ways of Ted Haggard, George Bush, Bill O'rielly, Billy graham etc. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Dear Off_World, whoever you are, i think it is a brilliant position you take and try to entrench. I am with you on that. But, where is its virtue if it is not coupled with social progress? It is like you thrust with peer review science and then unable to stand up along with the argument you run the other way taking its conclusions with you. You could have been an ayatollah in the larger TM-jihad along with the likes of Jon Hagelin but you drop the banner? What are you afraid of in your thinking? That Rick or Alex might reveal your identity here and that you would get banned from the Dome? I am intriqued with your seeming virtue, whoever you are. Your seeming principle cool humility. Just on the brink as you deploy it, you then spurn TM-jihad by declining to lead it further. It is laid in your lap and you declined it. You could have been an Ayatollah. A spiritual leader of jihad. A Captain, a leader of citizen Meditators for the Age of Enlightenment. Not to *mention* having 72 virgins waiting for you in Bramhaloka if you get snuffed in the process of leading the TM-jihad. And the brilliant part of this, from the TMO point of view, is that they only need a *total* of 72 virgins. The TM-jihad martyrs die and go to Brahmaloka, and after they get there the 72 virgins *remain* virgins, because these dickless wonders can't think of anything to do with them except have them wash their robes and polish their crowns. :-) Another smear capmaign by the anti-science fundamentalist Turq. T This is typical behaviour of people like Ted Haggard, George Bush, Ayatollah Khomeini, Gerry Falwell, etc. You belong in the dark ages with them. Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century. Get used to it. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. What are you talking about? Do you think that my lack desire to do TM means that I am rejecting science? Do you believe that the research into the benifits of TM means that everyone should do it? Absolutely not, you are trying to smear the world of science again instead of admitting that only research published in respected peer- reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century, and that you believe in that principle. If you do not admit to believing in that principle, then you belong with the anti-science fundamentalists like Ted Haggard, George Bush, Ayatollah Khomeini, Gerry Falwell, etc. You belong in the dark ages with them. Goodbye. The 21st century has left you anti-science fundamentalists behind and I will not coverse nor hold council with any of you Neandherthals if you cannot state here clearly: Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century, then you are an anti-science fundamentlaist who wants to take us back to the dark ages like Billy Graham, Rupert Murdoch and Osama Bin Laden. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
snip Absolutely not, you are trying to smear the world of science again instead of admitting that only research published in respected peer- reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century, and that you believe in that principle. If you do not admit to believing in that principle, then you belong with the anti-science fundamentalists like Ted Haggard, George Bush, Ayatollah Khomeini, Gerry Falwell, etc. You belong in the dark ages with them. I'm gunna guess that you don't understand how the scientific method fits into the broader questions of epistemology. You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of how peer reviewed studies are used to draw conclusions. As Turq pointed out, it is the replication of studies that is far more important than getting into a magazine after getting a review of the methods used. You are using the terms with the innocence of a TM teacher at an intro lecture holding up the collected papers and letting it drop and hit the ground for effect. As far as my beliefs go, I understand the value of peer review as a piece of the methods of science. A piece. Goodbye. The 21st century has left you anti-science fundamentalists behind and I will not coverse nor hold council with any of you Neandherthals Is this the prejudice those hairy guys in the GEICO ads are complaining about? if you cannot state here clearly: Is that with my hand over my heart or in a Sig Heil salute in front of me? Or perhaps with my hand on a copy of the collected papers? Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century, The scientific method requires a lot more than this to be useful. I'm also gunna guess that you have not spent any time reading scientist's criticism of the TM research have you? This is because of your hyper-focused faith in one aspect of how humans apply the scientific method. then you are an anti-science fundamentlaist who wants to take us back to the dark ages like Billy Graham, Rupert Murdoch and Osama Bin Laden. Your second false alternative in two paragraphs! Hasn't worked on me since I was 16. I don't know why someone who gives so much lip service to the methods of science would make so many absolutists statements. Unless... OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Absolutely not, you are trying to smear the world of science again instead of admitting that only research published in respected peer- reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century, and that you believe in that principle. If you do not admit to believing in that principle, then you belong with the anti- science fundamentalists like Ted Haggard, George Bush, Ayatollah Khomeini, Gerry Falwell, etc. You belong in the dark ages with them. I'm gunna guess that you don't understand how the scientific method fits into the broader questions of epistemology. You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of how peer reviewed studies are used to draw conclusions. As Turq pointed out, it is the replication of studies that is far more important than getting into a magazine after getting a review of the methods used. You are using the terms with the innocence of a TM teacher at an intro lecture holding up the collected papers and letting it drop and hit the ground for effect. As far as my beliefs go, I understand the value of peer review as a piece of the methods of science. A piece. On the contrary you and Turq's understanding of the world is naive and flawed, has no basis, and is no different than the Spanish Inquisition that denounced Galilleo. You are a anti-science fundamentalist Curtis, who wants to push his own personal opinion over science. If we are to go by your view in the 21st century then anything goes, just because they believe it is true. just like Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Billy Graham, Fox News, The Pope, and the other medieval nuts that are trying to destroy science. Any other of you anti-science freaks on FFL want to join Larry, Ted Haggard, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Rielly and on your fundamentlaist anti- science agenda? If you cannot state clearly: Only research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals, replicated 3 times, should be taken seriously in the 21st century, then you are an anti-science fundamentalist, and belong in the dark ages with the Spanish inquisition, and the Taliban. If you don't state this above statement, then you ARE stating that you are against science. That's a challenge to all you anti-science nuts here on FFL, that cannot bring themselves to make that statement. This has nothing to do with TM, this has to do with the future of science and humankind which is threatened by you people's anti- science fundamentalism -- Curt, Turq, Lurk, Vaj, Sal, Larry, Shemp, Peter, Boo, and others. OffWorld
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
off_world_beings wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Absolutely not, you are trying to smear the world of science again instead of admitting that only research published in respected peer- reviewed scientific journals holds any weight in the 21st century, and that you believe in that principle. If you do not admit to believing in that principle, then you belong with the anti- science fundamentalists like Ted Haggard, George Bush, Ayatollah Khomeini, Gerry Falwell, etc. You belong in the dark ages with them. I'm gunna guess that you don't understand how the scientific method fits into the broader questions of epistemology. You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of how peer reviewed studies are used to draw conclusions. As Turq pointed out, it is the replication of studies that is far more important than getting into a magazine after getting a review of the methods used. You are using the terms with the innocence of a TM teacher at an intro lecture holding up the collected papers and letting it drop and hit the ground for effect. As far as my beliefs go, I understand the value of peer review as a piece of the methods of science. A piece. On the contrary you and Turq's understanding of the world is naive and flawed, has no basis, and is no different than the Spanish Inquisition that denounced Galilleo. You are a anti-science fundamentalist Curtis, who wants to push his own personal opinion over science. If we are to go by your view in the 21st century then anything goes, just because they believe it is true. just like Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Billy Graham, Fox News, The Pope, and the other medieval nuts that are trying to destroy science. Any other of you anti-science freaks on FFL want to join Larry, Ted Haggard, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Rielly and on your fundamentlaist anti- science agenda? If you cannot state clearly: Only research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals, replicated 3 times, should be taken seriously in the 21st century, then you are an anti-science fundamentalist, and belong in the dark ages with the Spanish inquisition, and the Taliban. If you don't state this above statement, then you ARE stating that you are against science. That's a challenge to all you anti-science nuts here on FFL, that cannot bring themselves to make that statement. This has nothing to do with TM, this has to do with the future of science and humankind which is threatened by you people's anti- science fundamentalism -- Curt, Turq, Lurk, Vaj, Sal, Larry, Shemp, Peter, Boo, and others. OffWorld Lay off the egg nog! You still haven't answered my question as to what you teach at college. Surely not a science as you speak like someone who isn't a scientist. Real scientists know that we've only scratched the surface of knowledge and have a long way to go. There are certainly those who believe that science has all the solutions but no real scientist takes them seriously.
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snipyou anti-science nuts here on FFL, that cannot bring themselves to make that statement. This has nothing to do with TM, this has to do with the future of science and humankind which is threatened by you people's anti- science fundamentalism -- Curt, Turq, Lurk, Vaj, Sal, Larry, Shemp, Peter, Boo, and others. OffWorld Lay off the egg nog! STRAWMAN ATTACK ! , STRAWMAN ATTACK ! :-) You still haven't answered my question as to what you teach at college. Graphic Design Surely not a science as you speak like someone who isn't a scientist. Another typical strawman you are attempting, that if you don't have a Phd in physics and have worked in science research for 25 years you can have nothing to say on it. Is that what you are saying about yourself? You are trying to create another strawman, but you do not have a Phd physics and worked in research for 25 years either. Your strawman failed. End of story. I don't go by scientists opinions since they are often worng if they are not based on research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. History shows this. Real scientists know that we've only scratched the surface of knowledge and have a long way to go. That is why I only go by research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals, not personal scientists opinions. Bhairitu...are you actually saying that the experienced scientists who have worked in the field for decades and believe in creationism and a 6,000 year old earth are right? Your argument is absurd. You are missing the point, due to a poorly developed rational ability. You STILL refuse to say that the 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer-reviewed scientific journals, instead you want to avoid stating that because you, like Ted Haggard , George Bush, the Taliban and the 15th century Catholic church want to ignore science and apply your own anti-science fundamentalist approach. You people are so weak and afraid to state such a simple thing. It has nothing to do with TM, but you are SOOooo AFRAID to say this simple thing: The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer-reviewed scientific journals These are typical traits of an anti-science fundamentalists such as Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Billy Graham, Fox News, The Pope, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Rielly and... Curt, Turq, Lurk, Vaj, Sal, Larry, Shemp, Peter, Boo, Bhairitu, and others. PREDICTION: Their next move will be to try to prove their point with a peer-reviewed study, after insisting such thing are not valid ! Lol !what a bunch of jokers. The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. You loose. OffWorld
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
off_world_beings wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lay off the egg nog! STRAWMAN ATTACK ! , STRAWMAN ATTACK ! :-) Either that or the Jim Beam. Maybe you should go have holiday drinks with your schools physic department dean. :D You still haven't answered my question as to what you teach at college. Graphic Design Very useful field if taught correctly. Unfortunately it wasn't 10 years ago when I worked with colleges where graphic design profs were afraid of computers and didn't have any idea what PhotoShop or Illustrator was other than their students asking for courses in them. Real scientists know that we've only scratched the surface of knowledge and have a long way to go. That is why I only go by research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals, not personal scientists opinions. You can't form an opinion yourself? Bhairitu...are you actually saying that the experienced scientists who have worked in the field for decades and believe in creationism and a 6,000 year old earth are right? Your argument is absurd. No, I'm speaking in reference to TM research. I did not really follow all the ramble that went on here but basically discussing your statement regarding peer reviewed science. I especially do not trust much of medical science since I have studied alternative approaches and find much of allopathic research IS skewed to favor the pharmaceutical companies. Occasionally a western medicine study comes out that validates centuries of knowledge from ayurveda which wouldn't still be around if it wasn't true. You are missing the point, due to a poorly developed rational ability. You STILL refuse to say that the 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer-reviewed scientific journals, instead you want to avoid stating that because you, like Ted Haggard , George Bush, the Taliban and the 15th century Catholic church want to ignore science and apply your own anti-science fundamentalist approach. Hardly. Anyone who knows me personally would tell you I'm very technical and often lose them on what I'm talking about. You might notice that on certain topics here I probably put people to sleep because I go too deep technically. :) Neither do I think that many of the folks on FFL you named believe in any way creationism. I don't even think the resident righties believe in it. What I'm saying is totally the opposite. Science still isn't up to speed because of the way they teach scientists conditioning them to think only a certain way. Only the rebels break away. You people are so weak and afraid to state such a simple thing. It has nothing to do with TM, but you are SOOooo AFRAID to say this simple thing: The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer-reviewed scientific journals Sounds a bit jingoistic to me. These are typical traits of an anti-science fundamentalists such as Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Billy Graham, Fox News, The Pope, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Rielly and... Curt, Turq, Lurk, Vaj, Sal, Larry, Shemp, Peter, Boo, Bhairitu, and others. PREDICTION: Their next move will be to try to prove their point with a peer-reviewed study, after insisting such thing are not valid ! Lol !what a bunch of jokers. The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. Scientists have certainly done their share of fucking up the world with some Frankensteinian ideas. To blindly follow scientists is not a good idea, Igor. :D :D :D
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. -Doug, in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marek Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what I told them. I look back on that now and regret having bought into that mindset. That was an incorrect choice and bad behavior on my part. There are times when perfect candor may be inappropriate but for the most part honesty and transparency is better, particularly in promoting a program for the upliftment of society. To the degree Maharishi or anyone in the TMO has departed from that, then to that degree I feel that they have devalued their stated purpose and have failed. -Marek Nice to hear from you again Marek. As usual you served up some thoughtful material. snip But then all the inflated claims about what meditation did for a person made it into a group of believers. snip Now we have some idea that the group most devoted to TM, and presumably most representative of its long term effects, aren't exactly coming through with much of interest for me. Buying into the Raja nonsense is an important line of beliefs in the movement. I think I can relate to any long term meditator who gets the joke about those guys. If they can't, I really feel there is a serious disconnect with my values. Mystical experiences within religious beliefs has always been such a tiny portion any religion, that I don't think we really know much about this yet. snip I think your criteria of connecting virtues with inner experiences is valid although a lot of post have been devote to the idea that you can't. Any state that doesn't show improvement in how a person treats others seems highly suspect to me. -curtisdeltablues Yes, judging against even the TMmovement peer-review research as evidence, the names of every raja could easily be woven into their indictments on crimes against humanity. Clearly their involvement and performance in this is grounds to bring them before the world court on crimes against humanity of great Spiritual ineptitude. These are not spiritual teachers but egomaniacs who have turned the clock of humanity backwards with bad theatre. Help Call the grand jury of the world court of humanity. This is bad. Off with their hats! Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what I told them. I look back on that now and regret having bought into that mindset. That was an incorrect choice and bad behavior on my part. There are times when perfect candor may be inappropriate but for the most part honesty and transparency is better, particularly in promoting a program for the upliftment of society. To the degree Maharishi or anyone in the TMO has departed from that, then to that degree I feel that they have devalued their stated purpose and have failed. -Marek Marek, fine but now help now with the indictment. Use your skill of mind to help humanity if not just in civil right but spiritual. Their hubris is extreme and extremely small in their way. Their spiritual arrogance is extreme. Outrageous. Help a world contain this TMOcommunity mischeiviousness amongst us. Come along. You could help a lot of people. Yes, The 21st century will be about research published in resepected peer- reviewed scientific journals. Get used to it. But also, Jon Hagelin in the FF Ledger: Extensive published research shows that coherence and positivity is created in collective consciousness when a small number of people practice the Transcendental Meditation and more advanced Yogic Flying techniques together in a group- The Invincible America Assembly is raising the quality of collective consciousness and behavior throughout society to be more harmonious, more life supporting. And Nature is responding more positively. End of story Are you with us? Free the believers. -Doug, in FF --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis reavismarek@ wrote: Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. -OffWorld Dear Off_World, I am with you on this. Jon Hagelin is too and he is a bone-fide scientist apparently. And those who are not with us? Evidently negative tending social parasites as a TM-TB'er as Nabby might say it Dangerous to society by concluding your reasoning. Jon Hagelin in the FF Ledger: Extensive published research shows that coherence and positivity is created in collective consciousness when a small number of people practice the Transcendental Meditation and more advanced Yogic Flying techniques together in a group- The Invincible America Assembly is raising the quality of collective consciousness and behavior throughout society to be more harmonious, more life supporting. And Nature is responding more positively. End of story Yes, that is my experience. Off_World, whoever you are, Luv to Thee Off_W in this your TM-jihad. Jai Guru Dev, -Doug in FF see this link for Hagelin's current TMmovement thoughts Published in the Fairfield Daily Ledger: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157620 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Heart of TM-jihad as expressed by Off_World: you are not remotely qualified to make that judgment. Only scientists are, and they have overwhelmingly found the science in TM studies to be robust. That is why sceintists at the NIH gave $20 million (and rising) in research money to Maharishi University, and more than 5 major universities in the US are currently engaged in research on TM. Over 200 studies in peer- reviewed scientific journals... and STILL anti-science people like you ( a lot like George Bush and the anti-evolution crowd) want to destroy science and everything it has built. Your type belong in the dark ages. Science is the future, and peer-reveiwed published research is your future but you are afraid of it. Get used to it, it is not going away despite the best efforts of you anti-science people. To me there is no lower people than anti-science people like the fundie Christians and fundie Muslims. OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 TM-Jihad!!!TM-Jihad!TM-Jihad!TM-JihadTM- Jihad That is typical of anti-science fundies to say things I did not say. Your 'TM-Jihad' words you pin on me because of being an anti- science fundamentalist. I am not interested in TM philosophy or beliefs...I said that I would go by research only, wether it goes against TM, or for TM. I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, and can say with hinesty that, for society at large, I will go by what peer-reviewed research published finds. Period. I only go by research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. I am the only one on FFL that has said I will change my mind if the research changes. I, unlike the anti-science crowd, am the ONLY one on FFL that STATES CLEARLY that I would change, based on solid research as stated above. This makes everyone else on this board an anti-science fundamentalist. I will change my mind on the whole thing if even only 1/4 of the research published in respected peer-reviewed journals goes the other way. I will change my recommendations of the practice on that basis alone. But fundamentlaists put words in your mouth which were not there, because they are afraid of the truth. They want to keep believing in santa- claus and the tooth fairy and uncorroborated claims. I don't. My experiences are tremendous, but to me that is no proof of anything whatsoever. Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals is proof of anything. The anti-science crowd on FFL want to ignore science, and just like the anti-science nuts among the Neocons they want to put words in your mouth. It is quite amazing, and that you save, or go and look for all those posts, shows your fundamentalist fanaticism, and then put meaning there that was not there. This is typical behaviour of the anti- science practices of the fundamentalist christians and muslims, and people like George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Ted Haggard, Condi Rice, Jerry Falwell and other ignorant nutcases. The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. OffWorld .
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. -OffWorld Dear Off_World, I am with you on this. Jon Hagelin is too and he is a bone-fide scientist apparently. Well, sorry, please don't put the word 'TM jihad' in my mouth. I am barely even talking about TM. I am talking about research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. TM has a lot, but I am adamantly talking about scientific process here, and respect for that. Not TM alone. And those who are not with us? Evidently negative tending social parasites as a TM-TB'er as Nabby might say it Dangerous to society by concluding your reasoning. I don't understand this point. Yes, research published in peer- reviewed respected scientific journals is king in the 21st century, if that it what you are asking. Jon Hagelin in the FF Ledger: Extensive published research shows that coherence and positivity is created in collective consciousness when a small number of people practice the Transcendental Meditation and more advanced Yogic Flying techniques together in a group- The Invincible America Assembly is raising the quality of collective consciousness and behavior throughout society to be more harmonious, more life supporting. And Nature is responding more positively. End of story I think this would be a good addition and replication to the previous research if, and only if, it gets published in a respected peer- reviewed scientific journal. Yes, that is my experience. Off_World, whoever you are, Luv to Thee Off_W in this your TM-jihad. That would be YOUR TM-jihad Doug. Not mine. Stop saying that stuff about TM-jihad please. That is a fundamentlist's term and I am only interested in research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. I consider religion and other unproven philosophic ideas and techniques as a kind of poison to science. It must be given strong evidence, or move out the way. I don't care what it is, I only care about evidence under proper scientific peer-review. Thanks, good luck with your jihad Doug. But for all those anti-science freaks on FFL, much as it pains them each time they hear it, the future belongs to research published in peer-reviewed respected scientific journals. Get used to it. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, NO. So Curtis states that he is open to scientific research. Thank God someone here FFL is not an anti-science freak like Huckabee, Ted Haggard, George Bush, Jerry Falwell, Rush Limbaugh. Curtis also believes in research published in respected peer reviewed scientific journals, and that the more studies on a topic the more robust is its stated outcomes and effects. Good for you Curtis, for standing up for science and research published in respected peer reviewed scientific journals. Science is the only hope for humankind, not these anti-science clowns like the Neocons that want to take us back to the dark ages, and people like Turq, Lurk, Burt, Squirt, and Boo, Ru, Sue, and Poo, and other anti- science freaks here on FFL OffWorld --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Heart of TM-jihad as expressed by Off_World: you are not remotely qualified to make that judgment. Only scientists are, and they have overwhelmingly found the science in TM studies to be robust. That is why sceintists at the NIH gave $20 million (and rising) in research money to Maharishi University, and more than 5 major universities in the US are currently engaged in research on TM. Over 200 studies in peer- reviewed scientific journals... and STILL anti-science people like you ( a lot like George Bush and the anti-evolution crowd) want to destroy science and everything it has built. Your type belong in the dark ages. Science is the future, and peer-reveiwed published research is your future but you are afraid of it. Get used to it, it is not going away despite the best efforts of you anti-science people. To me there is no lower people than anti-science people like the fundie Christians and fundie Muslims. OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 TM-Jihad!!!TM-Jihad!TM-Jihad!TM-JihadTM- Jihad That is typical of anti-science fundies to say things I did not say. Your 'TM-Jihad' words you pin on me because of being an anti- science fundamentalist. I am not interested in TM philosophy or beliefs...I said that I would go by research only, wether it goes against TM, or for TM. I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, and can say with hinesty that, for society at large, I will go by what peer-reviewed research published finds. Period. I only go by research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. I am the only one on FFL that has said I will change my mind if the research changes. I, unlike the anti-science crowd, am the ONLY one on FFL that STATES CLEARLY that I would change, based on solid research as stated above. This makes everyone else on this board an anti-science fundamentalist. I will change my mind on the whole thing if even only 1/4 of the research published in respected peer-reviewed journals goes the other way. I will change my recommendations of the practice on that basis alone. But fundamentlaists put words in your mouth which were not there, because they are afraid of the truth. They want to keep believing in santa- claus and the tooth fairy and uncorroborated claims. I don't. My experiences are tremendous, but to me that is no proof of anything whatsoever. Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals is proof of anything. The anti-science crowd on FFL want to ignore science, and just like the anti-science nuts among the Neocons
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. That is fairly common in science, and that is why the rigor aspect needs to be constantly refined, and a lot of the TM research was found be more robust than most studies in any science. But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. I won't go down that road. THE ONLY (I stress, THE ONLY) way for people to agree on things in the world are through study and replication under validated conditions. A LOT of the most important research on TM is robust, and only anti-science freaks bring up the argument that if 1 in 10 of them is not strong, then they are, by default , ALL of them weak. That is the way of the Neocons and I am appalled to see so many people here on FFL, like Boo, Ru, Poo, Lurk, Turq, Smirk, Jurk, Curt, and Burt, all acting EXACTLY like the Neocons when something in science does not suit their opinion. I am appalled. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. What are you talking about? Do you think that my lack desire to do TM means that I am rejecting science? Do you believe that the research into the benifits of TM means that everyone should do it? I rejected the states TM was developing in me for my own personal reasons. It has nothing to do with a chart that shows that chilling out with TM in fact chills you out. Perhaps TM isn't the only way to chill out. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. That is fairly common in science, and that is why the rigor aspect needs to be constantly refined, and a lot of the TM research was found be more robust than most studies in any science. But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. I won't go down that road. THE ONLY (I stress, THE ONLY) way for people to agree on things in the world are through study and replication under validated conditions. A LOT of the most important research on TM is robust, and only anti-science freaks bring up the argument that if 1 in 10 of them is not strong, then they are, by default , ALL of them weak. That is the way of the Neocons and I am appalled to see so many people here on FFL, like Boo, Ru, Poo, Lurk, Turq, Smirk, Jurk, Curt, and Burt, all acting EXACTLY like the Neocons when something in science does not suit their opinion. I am appalled. OffWorld
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
off_world_beings wrote: That is fairly common in science, and that is why the rigor aspect needs to be constantly refined, and a lot of the TM research was found be more robust than most studies in any science. But I am sad to hear you say that you are throwing out ALL of modern science because it doesn't suit your opinion. On that idea are fascist states born. I won't go down that road. THE ONLY (I stress, THE ONLY) way for people to agree on things in the world are through study and replication under validated conditions. A LOT of the most important research on TM is robust, and only anti-science freaks bring up the argument that if 1 in 10 of them is not strong, then they are, by default , ALL of them weak. That is the way of the Neocons and I am appalled to see so many people here on FFL, like Boo, Ru, Poo, Lurk, Turq, Smirk, Jurk, Curt, and Burt, all acting EXACTLY like the Neocons when something in science does not suit their opinion. I am appalled. OffWorld Okay, show me the peer-reviewed studies with tests between say: TM, SYDA Yoga, Sivananda Meditation, Vipassana, etc., etc. Those to my knowledge don't exist because TM would never allow it and neither would some of the others. What would you find: that TM is no better than any other technique. BTW, what do you teach? One of the liberal arts?
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, NO. So Curtis states that he is open to scientific research. Thank God someone here FFL is not an anti-science freak ... **snip to end** Thanks for the insider perspective, Curtis. It seems to me that the whole universe (particularly human endeavor) is fundamentally and purely experimental in nature. You do something and something else happens; oftentimes it seems like there is a causal connection between the two events and to the degree that you like or dislike the second event you modify your behavior accordingly with the intention of either repeating or avoiding a same or similar result. The modified behavior may or may not produce the result you anticipate and you modify behavior again. All subsequent behavior and experience branch out from there. We all keep doing this throughout our lives and apparently that's the way the universe goes about its business, too. The experiment with religion that we humans are so enthralled with just seems to have a long data collection timeline compared to a human lifetime and it seems to have to go through many generations of human experimenters and many different iterations of form before enough data will have been compiled before a significant portion of the population come to a different conclusion regarding its ultimate value (even though a lot of folks have come to a provisional decision regarding its worth based on other people's recommendations). Those of us who read and post at FFL, on the other hand, have all been lucky vis-a-vis our experience with Maharishi and the TMO in that we've had the opportunity to evaluate some of the results of this religion experiment with individuals who have been represented to be the fulfilled beneficiaries of the promise of religion (Maharishi, Guru Dev, Jim, Rory, Dr. Pete, Tom, etc.). (And for purposes of this post I take it as a given that the promise of Maharishi's programs, including his meditation, is the fulfillment of the standard promises of religion; not only his initial message with the SRM but even at the peak of the scientific charts and the Merv Griffin wave of initiations, that was spoken of openly and clearly; and the current use of language re the will of God is also a reiteration of that.) It seems to boil down to one of two different metrics in evaluating the worth of religion (including TM as either a component of one's independent religious practice, or as the necessary component of the quasi-Hindu TMO religion): either, (1) how it makes you feel on the inside (including the body), or (2) how it makes you act on the outside. My own experience to date is that is makes me feel fine on the inside and feel that I'm a better actor and a better person in the world at large, as well. However, it seems clear that some folks who claim the the interior benefits don't act in the world in a way that I'd recommend anyone emulate. Consequently, I'd have to go with goodness, compassion, peacefulness and charity as being in the long run the better metric for the world at large. I have clients whose experiences on illicit drugs rival anything I've experienced in meditation or after (and the compelling nature of those experiences argue convincingly for their authenticity) but whose outward behavior is a source of ultimate distress for themselves and the world around them. Good experiences but bad behavior. Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Marek Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what I told them. I look back on that now and regret having bought into that mindset. That was an incorrect choice and bad behavior on my part. There are times when perfect candor may be inappropriate but for the most part honesty and transparency is better, particularly in promoting a program for the upliftment of society. To the degree Maharishi or anyone in the TMO has departed from that, then to that degree I feel that they have devalued their stated purpose and have failed. Nice to hear from you again Marek. As usual you served up some thoughtful material. I attribute my youthful (up to age 31 so not sooo young!) infatuation with pushing TM in its brochure sanitized form to be a result of my own lack of comfort living with imperfection. One of the greatest gifts of aging has been the necessity to accept life on imperfect terms that I would have rejected when I believed in perfection. Now the idea of perfection in any area of my life seems like such a boor. Definitely not something to aspire for anymore. I've been reading Jon Kabat-zin's books lately and tried his meditation a few times. It made me wonder what the result of MMY's life work is really. It does seem like a cool thing that he got so many people to take a chill pill and meditate. But then somehow it didn't seem to stick. I wonder if it was too much to ask for even 20 minutes twice a day. 10 minutes once a day might be more realistic. But then all the inflated claims about what meditation did for a person made it into a group of believers. I wonder if the sidhis knocked out most of the casual meditators. That was probably too bad. I think that the centering effect of meditaton may be something people would benefit from. But who wants to associate with a group that is claiming yogic flyers? Mostly people who can swallow some of the beliefs about TM's spiritual connection I guess. Now we have some idea that the group most devoted to TM, and presumably most representative of its long term effects, aren't exactly coming through with much of interest for me. Buying into the Raja nonsense is an important line of beliefs in the movement. I think I can relate to any long term meditator who gets the joke about those guys. If they can't, I really feel there is a serious disconnect with my values. Mystical experiences within religious beliefs has always been such a tiny portion any religion, that I don't think we really know much about this yet. Since most of the ancient experiences were made at a time when mental illness was not separated out, I think we have to be cautious of using some famous examples of mystics as proof of anything. I have spent some time with people who were in the grips of mental illness and they are quite sure about themselves and their divine nature sometimes. Very sure. Me, not so much. I think your criteria of connecting virtues with inner experiences is valid although a lot of post have been devote to the idea that you can't. Any state that doesn't show improvement in how a person treats others seems highly suspect to me. All good rambles must come to an end. You posts always get me thinking so thanks for that Marek! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I spent a month with David OJ studying the collected papers. Some published research is better than others. One critical context to evaluate about research is what conclusions are being drawn from the studies. This is an area were even some good movement studies fall down IMO. In other words, it is possible to do a good study on improvements on a rod and frame test. It is another thing to extrapolate that this means that mediators have a more stable internal state of reference. Although I share your enthusiasm for the scientific method as a tool to expand knowledge, I don't forget that it is always humans using this tool. It is never practiced in purity. The TM studies are not all on one level of reliability, published or not. David went into a lot of detail about which tests were more rigorous than others. Getting published is only one aspect in evaluating the credibility of scientific research. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, NO. So Curtis states that he is open to scientific research. Thank God someone here FFL is not an
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
Comments [interleaved]: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marek Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what I told them. I look back on that now and regret having bought into that mindset. That was an incorrect choice and bad behavior on my part. There are times when perfect candor may be inappropriate but for the most part honesty and transparency is better, particularly in promoting a program for the upliftment of society. To the degree Maharishi or anyone in the TMO has departed from that, then to that degree I feel that they have devalued their stated purpose and have failed. Nice to hear from you again Marek. As usual you served up some thoughtful material. I attribute my youthful (up to age 31 so not sooo young!) infatuation with pushing TM in its brochure sanitized form to be a result of my own lack of comfort living with imperfection. One of the greatest gifts of aging has been the necessity to accept life on imperfect terms that I would have rejected when I believed in perfection. Now the idea of perfection in any area of my life seems like such a boor. Definitely not something to aspire for anymore. [Yes, I agree, and similarly, when I left the movement and later stopped meditating for many years, one wonderful consequence was finally being able to be with people rather than draw some imaginary (but inviolate) distinction between them and me; that distinction being their status in re TM -- meditator/non-meditator. That fundamental difference made all the difference in how I related to that person from then on. One of the things I love about my work is the opportunity to learn firsthand how very much alike we all are regardless of how we place on the socio-economic or intellectural scales, or the spiritual scale for that matter.] I've been reading Jon Kabat-zin's books lately and tried his meditation a few times. It made me wonder what the result of MMY's life work is really. It does seem like a cool thing that he got so many people to take a chill pill and meditate. But then somehow it didn't seem to stick. I wonder if it was too much to ask for even 20 minutes twice a day. 10 minutes once a day might be more realistic. But then all the inflated claims about what meditation did for a person made it into a group of believers. I wonder if the sidhis knocked out most of the casual meditators. That was probably too bad. I think that the centering effect of meditaton may be something people would benefit from. But who wants to associate with a group that is claiming yogic flyers? Mostly people who can swallow some of the beliefs about TM's spiritual connection I guess. [Had never heard of Jon Kabat-zin until now; for sure I'm going to check into what he says/teaches. Can you say anything more about what you learned? It's trite to say, but I think that Maharishi just hit the mark when the time was ripe; and he had a good meditation that was particularly well-suited for the masses; there were a number of competing systems around the time when I learned, Ananda Marga, ISKCON, Stephen Gaskin, Ram Das, Krishnamurti, Rajneesh in the 80s. All those movements had pretty big numbers for a while but they didn't have the staying power of TM. I know of some people who learned TM in the 70s and who continue to meditate regularly, if only once a day; and I met a woman sometime last year who told me that she had learned TM in the 80s and meditated twice a day for over 7 years and stopped for no particular reason around the time of a divorce. When we spoke she seemed kind of surprised that she had stopped; she said she'd always really enjoyed it and went to a couple of residence course. But the introduction of the siddhis really knocked the whole thing into a cocked hat. But it was so outrageous to claim levitation! Holy shit, I thought, that's got to be real because you couldn't just say that and not deliver! Holy Shit! People are flying! That's really pretty much the way I took it; it was so fucking amazing to find out that the age of miracles was right now! This was IT! Any lingering doubts I might have had went completely away. Experience re-introduced them to me later on. The effect on the growth curve of the TMO and the meditation movement was pretty obvious and dramatic.] Now we have some idea that the group most devoted to TM, and presumably most representative of its long term effects, aren't exactly coming through with much of interest for me. Buying into the Raja nonsense is an important line of beliefs in the movement. I think I can relate to any long term meditator who gets the joke about those
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
the only metric worth using is the measurement of how much social good does any action promote. Off_W you're trying to stay un-involved but what you think about this observation of Marek? Like, where are you going with your defending peer review TM research if not also a TM-jihad in these times, with any worthwhile metric? With every fibre of your being. the only metric worth using is the measurement of how much social good does any action promote. -Doug in FF --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Actually, I think it was you, Curtis, and/or New.Morning (among others) who got me thinking that the only metric worth using is the measurement of how much social good does any action promote. So I still feel meditation is an intelligent thing to do (quoting Richard Williams), both as an end in itself and as an adjunct to a good and purposeful life.] Comments [interleaved]: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Marek Like many here who have taught and promoted TM in the past, I was ready, willing and able to be less than candid or truthful about the TMO or its programs if I felt that the ultimate result would be that someone would learn meditation or continue meditation based on what I told them. I look back on that now and regret having bought into that mindset. That was an incorrect choice and bad behavior on my part. There are times when perfect candor may be inappropriate but for the most part honesty and transparency is better, particularly in promoting a program for the upliftment of society. To the degree Maharishi or anyone in the TMO has departed from that, then to that degree I feel that they have devalued their stated purpose and have failed. Nice to hear from you again Marek. As usual you served up some thoughtful material. I attribute my youthful (up to age 31 so not sooo young!) infatuation with pushing TM in its brochure sanitized form to be a result of my own lack of comfort living with imperfection. One of the greatest gifts of aging has been the necessity to accept life on imperfect terms that I would have rejected when I believed in perfection. Now the idea of perfection in any area of my life seems like such a boor. Definitely not something to aspire for anymore. [Yes, I agree, and similarly, when I left the movement and later stopped meditating for many years, one wonderful consequence was finally being able to be with people rather than draw some imaginary (but inviolate) distinction between them and me; that distinction being their status in re TM -- meditator/non- meditator. That fundamental difference made all the difference in how I related to that person from then on. One of the things I love about my work is the opportunity to learn firsthand how very much alike we all are regardless of how we place on the socio-economic or intellectural scales, or the spiritual scale for that matter.] I've been reading Jon Kabat-zin's books lately and tried his meditation a few times. It made me wonder what the result of MMY's life work is really. It does seem like a cool thing that he got so many people to take a chill pill and meditate. But then somehow it didn't seem to stick. I wonder if it was too much to ask for even 20 minutes twice a day. 10 minutes once a day might be more realistic. But then all the inflated claims about what meditation did for a person made it into a group of believers. I wonder if the sidhis knocked out most of the casual meditators. That was probably too bad. I think that the centering effect of meditaton may be something people would benefit from. But who wants to associate with a group that is claiming yogic flyers? Mostly people who can swallow some of the beliefs about TM's spiritual connection I guess. [Had never heard of Jon Kabat-zin until now; for sure I'm going to check into what he says/teaches. Can you say anything more about what you learned? It's trite to say, but I think that Maharishi just hit the mark when the time was ripe; and he had a good meditation that was particularly well-suited for the masses; there were a number of competing systems around the time when I learned, Ananda Marga, ISKCON, Stephen Gaskin, Ram Das, Krishnamurti, Rajneesh in the 80s. All those movements had pretty big numbers for a while but they didn't have the staying power of TM. I know of some people who learned TM in the 70s and who continue to meditate regularly, if only once a day; and I met a woman sometime last year who told me that she had learned TM in the 80s and meditated twice a day for over 7 years and stopped for no particular reason around the time of a divorce. When we spoke she seemed kind of surprised that she had stopped; she said she'd always really enjoyed
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heart of TM-jihad as expressed by Off_World: you are not remotely qualified to make that judgment. Only scientists are, and they have overwhelmingly found the science in TM studies to be robust. That is why sceintists at the NIH gave $20 million (and rising) in research money to Maharishi University, and more than 5 major universities in the US are currently engaged in research on TM. Over 200 studies in peer- reviewed scientific journals... and STILL anti-science people like you ( a lot like George Bush and the anti-evolution crowd) want to destroy science and everything it has built. Your type belong in the dark ages. Science is the future, and peer-reveiwed published research is your future but you are afraid of it. Get used to it, it is not going away despite the best efforts of you anti-science people. To me there is no lower people than anti-science people like the fundie Christians and fundie Muslims. OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 TM-Jihad!!!TM-Jihad!TM-Jihad!TM-JihadTM- Jihad That is typical of anti-science fundies to say things I did not say. Your 'TM-Jihad' words you pin on me because of being an anti-science fundamentalist. I am not interested in TM philosophy or beliefs...I said that I would go by research only, wether it goes against TM, or for TM. I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, and can say with hinesty that, for society at large, I will go by what peer-reviewed research published finds. Period. I only go by research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. I am the only one on FFL that has said I will change my mind if the research changes. I, unlike the anti-science crowd, am the ONLY one on FFL that STATES CLEARLY that I would change, based on solid research as stated above. This makes everyone else on this board an anti-science fundamentalist. I will change my mind on the whole thing if even only 1/4 of the research published in respected peer-reviewed journals goes the other way. I will change my recommendations of the practice on that basis alone. But fundamentlaists put words in your mouth which were not there, because they are afraid of the truth. They want to keep believing in santa- claus and the tooth fairy and uncorroborated claims. I don't. My experiences are tremendous, but to me that is no proof of anything whatsoever. Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals is proof of anything. The anti-science crowd on FFL want to ignore science, and just like the anti-science nuts among the Neocons they want to put words in your mouth. It is quite amazing, and that you save, or go and look for all those posts, shows your fundamentalist fanaticism, and then put meaning there that was not there. This is typical behaviour of the anti- science practices of the fundamentalist christians and muslims, and people like George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Ted Haggard, Condi Rice, Jerry Falwell and other ignorant nutcases. The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. OffWorld .
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, NO. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Heart of TM-jihad as expressed by Off_World: you are not remotely qualified to make that judgment. Only scientists are, and they have overwhelmingly found the science in TM studies to be robust. That is why sceintists at the NIH gave $20 million (and rising) in research money to Maharishi University, and more than 5 major universities in the US are currently engaged in research on TM. Over 200 studies in peer- reviewed scientific journals... and STILL anti-science people like you ( a lot like George Bush and the anti-evolution crowd) want to destroy science and everything it has built. Your type belong in the dark ages. Science is the future, and peer-reveiwed published research is your future but you are afraid of it. Get used to it, it is not going away despite the best efforts of you anti-science people. To me there is no lower people than anti-science people like the fundie Christians and fundie Muslims. OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 TM-Jihad!!!TM-Jihad!TM-Jihad!TM-JihadTM- Jihad That is typical of anti-science fundies to say things I did not say. Your 'TM-Jihad' words you pin on me because of being an anti-science fundamentalist. I am not interested in TM philosophy or beliefs...I said that I would go by research only, wether it goes against TM, or for TM. I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, and can say with hinesty that, for society at large, I will go by what peer-reviewed research published finds. Period. I only go by research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. I am the only one on FFL that has said I will change my mind if the research changes. I, unlike the anti-science crowd, am the ONLY one on FFL that STATES CLEARLY that I would change, based on solid research as stated above. This makes everyone else on this board an anti-science fundamentalist. I will change my mind on the whole thing if even only 1/4 of the research published in respected peer-reviewed journals goes the other way. I will change my recommendations of the practice on that basis alone. But fundamentlaists put words in your mouth which were not there, because they are afraid of the truth. They want to keep believing in santa- claus and the tooth fairy and uncorroborated claims. I don't. My experiences are tremendous, but to me that is no proof of anything whatsoever. Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals is proof of anything. The anti-science crowd on FFL want to ignore science, and just like the anti-science nuts among the Neocons they want to put words in your mouth. It is quite amazing, and that you save, or go and look for all those posts, shows your fundamentalist fanaticism, and then put meaning there that was not there. This is typical behaviour of the anti- science practices of the fundamentalist christians and muslims, and people like George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Ted Haggard, Condi Rice, Jerry Falwell and other ignorant nutcases. The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. OffWorld .
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If mediation could save the world then it would have a long time ago. Some have believed that Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, and many other isms will save the world. We done that, been there and got the t-shirt. Next... Word! Angela Mailander wrote: Are you saying that TM will save the planet? dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: According to the article in the link below, That vision needs to be framed by the truly global nature of the problem. It starts with the recognition that this historical era of nationalism has become a stubborn, increasingly toxic impediment to our collective future. We all need to begin to think of ourselves -- now -- as citizens of one profoundly distressed planet. In God's Name, Off_World is right in a way on all of this. His is our collective meditating experience and it is about science. Off-World, intellectual brother of 'TM-jihad' did say here, i quote: Excuse the hard hitting title, but I am against the current trend in society to try to destroy science, and when I stated that I would fight with every fibre of my being to maintain the scientific age rather than go back to the dark ages, I meant EXACTLY that. Yes, solution to all these conflicts in the 21st Century is about good research on, consciousness. Yes, central to mitigating the predicted global conflict and attending malaise is Off_World's TMmovement research and his kind of scientific *TM-jihad*. If there is universal solution, there it be for purpose of all human life left on earth. Again, this spiritual leader of radical conservative TM-jihadis, Off_World guides us, Let me repeat what I said: I said I would fight with every fibre of my being against anti- science people, and that science and research published in peer- reviewed scientific journals is something I WILL fight for...not the religious sectarian irrational opinions of the uneducated. ... Science will win, and you anti-science low-lifes will loose, OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157333 the future lies in peer-reviewed published research. Get used to it you anti-science neanderthals. OffWorld the future lies in peer-reviewed published research. Get used to it you anti-science neanderthals. OffWorld Heart of TM-jihad as expressed by Off_World: you are not remotely qualified to make that judgment. Only scientists are, and they have overwhelmingly found the science in TM studies to be robust. That is why sceintists at the NIH gave $20 million (and rising) in research money to Maharishi University, and more than 5 major universities in the US are currently engaged in research on TM. Over 200 studies in peer- reviewed scientific journals... and STILL anti-science people like you ( a lot like George Bush and the anti-evolution crowd) want to destroy science and everything it has built. Your type belong in the dark ages. Science is the future, and peer-reveiwed published research is your future but you are afraid of it. Get used to it, it is not going away despite the best efforts of you anti-science people. To me there is no lower people than anti-science people like the fundie Christians and fundie Muslims. OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 TM-Jihad!!!TM-Jihad!TM-Jihad!TM-JihadTM-Jihad we have or will shortly pass the point of no return on global warming. Not all, but most of us, according to this article are majorly screwed beyond the point of no return. http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/12/10/165845/92 http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/12/10/165845/92 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: point of no return passed? TM-Jihad
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, NO. So Curtis states that he is open to scientific research. Thank God someone here FFL is not an anti-science freak like Huckabee, Ted Haggard, George Bush, Jerry Falwell, Rush Limbaugh. Curtis also believes in research published in respected peer reviewed scientific journals, and that the more studies on a topic the more robust is its stated outcomes and effects. Good for you Curtis, for standing up for science and research published in respected peer reviewed scientific journals. Science is the only hope for humankind, not these anti-science clowns like the Neocons that want to take us back to the dark ages, and people like Turq, Lurk, Burt, Squirt, and Boo, Ru, Sue, and Poo, and other anti- science freaks here on FFL OffWorld --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Heart of TM-jihad as expressed by Off_World: you are not remotely qualified to make that judgment. Only scientists are, and they have overwhelmingly found the science in TM studies to be robust. That is why sceintists at the NIH gave $20 million (and rising) in research money to Maharishi University, and more than 5 major universities in the US are currently engaged in research on TM. Over 200 studies in peer- reviewed scientific journals... and STILL anti-science people like you ( a lot like George Bush and the anti-evolution crowd) want to destroy science and everything it has built. Your type belong in the dark ages. Science is the future, and peer-reveiwed published research is your future but you are afraid of it. Get used to it, it is not going away despite the best efforts of you anti-science people. To me there is no lower people than anti-science people like the fundie Christians and fundie Muslims. OffWorld http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/157512 TM-Jihad!!!TM-Jihad!TM-Jihad!TM-JihadTM- Jihad That is typical of anti-science fundies to say things I did not say. Your 'TM-Jihad' words you pin on me because of being an anti- science fundamentalist. I am not interested in TM philosophy or beliefs...I said that I would go by research only, wether it goes against TM, or for TM. I AM THE ONLY ONE on FFL that is that open minded on the topic, and can say with hinesty that, for society at large, I will go by what peer-reviewed research published finds. Period. I only go by research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. I am the only one on FFL that has said I will change my mind if the research changes. I, unlike the anti-science crowd, am the ONLY one on FFL that STATES CLEARLY that I would change, based on solid research as stated above. This makes everyone else on this board an anti-science fundamentalist. I will change my mind on the whole thing if even only 1/4 of the research published in respected peer-reviewed journals goes the other way. I will change my recommendations of the practice on that basis alone. But fundamentlaists put words in your mouth which were not there, because they are afraid of the truth. They want to keep believing in santa- claus and the tooth fairy and uncorroborated claims. I don't. My experiences are tremendous, but to me that is no proof of anything whatsoever. Only research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals is proof of anything. The anti-science crowd on FFL want to ignore science, and just like the anti-science nuts among the Neocons they want to put words in your mouth. It is quite amazing, and that you save, or go and look for all those posts, shows your fundamentalist fanaticism, and then put meaning there that was not there. This is typical behaviour of the anti- science practices of the fundamentalist christians and muslims, and people like George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Ted Haggard, Condi Rice, Jerry Falwell and other ignorant nutcases. The future for the 21st century is research published in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Period. Get used to it. OffWorld .
