[Finale] Augenmusik
I believe most orchestral players consider more than three f's or p's to reside here. I once had the great pleasure of the company of the first trombone in the Vienna Philharmonic who was an actual Viennese. To call him phlegmatic was excessive. Mahler's dynamics were surely necessary to rouse such as he to a respectable forte;-) Henry Howey Professor of Music Sam Houston State University Box 2208 Huntsville, TX 77341 (936) 294-1364 http://www.shsu.edu/~music/faculty/howey.html Owner of FINALE Discussion List - Sent from SamMail at Sam Houston State University See How Success Unfolds http://www.shsu.edu/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:22 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Feb 16, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: If Bach had written his Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring today, he would have been credited as arranged by... and been eligible for no royalties at all unless the tune (the part with the words) was in the public domain. Everything he wrote - all the most interesting parts that make the piece good - are just the arrangement, by modern standards. Not really true. He would have had to obtain permission from the copyright owner, but could then have copyrighted his own contribution as an original work. Form PA has a place for the creator to designate exactly what aspect of the work is claimed as copyrightable, and another where original and derived portions of the work are clearly distinguished. Berio's _Sinfonia_ is but one example of a work full of qotations of copyrighted material, but considered, both legally and artistically, to be a fully original composition in its own right. Similarly, any composer's Variations on [X] is not deemed an arrangement, whether [X] be copyrighted or not. I guess that's where the modern departure occurs; so seldom are modern copyright owners willing to give this sort of permission that any work of this type that ends up being done is done as an arrangement. At least, I've had no luck. If Berio hadn't passed away recently I might have asked him what his trick was... christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]
On 17.02.2006 Andrew Stiller wrote: I like those symbols too. According to Grove Concise, Schoenberg called the first one Hauptstimme (head voice). A more accurate translation would be Main voice. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]
Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German. Now I understand Hauptbanhof better too. Chuck On Feb 17, 2006, at 6:03 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 Andrew Stiller wrote: I like those symbols too. According to Grove Concise, Schoenberg called the first one Hauptstimme (head voice). A more accurate translation would be Main voice. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]
On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote: Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German. Now I understand Hauptbanhof better too. That's a very interesting one: a lot of Hauptbahnhöfe are in fact also Kopfbahnhöfe, and that would indeed translate into head station. (But it means a Station which is a dead end, trains only leaving in one direction). (I certainly didn't mean to be Mr wiseguy, should this have been the impression!) ;-) Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On Feb 16, 2006, at 3:46 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: But, on the other hand, I think we know that in Mozart's time, symphonies in certain keys in certain styles would often add trumpets and drums as a matter of performance practice, improvised by the performers reading from a bass line (Dwight Blazin has done work on this subject in the Salzburg repertory). The military musicians in Salzburg were not actually members of the Capella, but were frequently called in to supplement the orchestra. And there is some question as to the degree of their musical literacy. You bring up a very important point that is often overlooked. While we tend to take every note and indication as gospel in these modern times, many of the musicians of the time were faking it, kind of like a cocktail trio does today. Berlioz, for one, is famous for clamping down on the liberties many musicians (and conductors!) took with music as a matter of course. There's a musicologist I teach with who is nuts about Bob Dylan. He has transcribed many of his recordings meticulously and organised readings of the tunes. He doesn't seem to realise that all those arrangements were improvised off the cuff in the studio, and that if somebody hit a bum note, it stayed in because they didn't have another take that was cleaner. He insists that the musicians play the bum notes in his transcriptions and has ascribed all sorts of meaning to them that Dylan must have meant to put in. He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an integral part of the work, and wants the guitarist to tune his upper E string a little sharp because that's the way it is on the recording. He gets teased mercilessly, but he thinks his work will go down in the annals of musicology. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture. Thanks, Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]
On Feb 17, 2006, at 7:57 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote: Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German. Now I understand Hauptbanhof better too. That's a very interesting one: a lot of Hauptbahnhöfe are in fact also Kopfbahnhöfe, and that would indeed translate into head station. (But it means a Station which is a dead end, trains only leaving in one direction). (I certainly didn't mean to be Mr wiseguy, should this have been the impression!) Not at all, Johannes, I'm happy for the information, and now this provides a little more. Chuck ;-) Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
Overture: 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in C, 2 bassoons 2 horns in E flat, 2 trumpets in A Timpani Gran Cassa Strings At 17:41 17/02/2006, you wrote: If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture. Thanks, Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Peter Lockwood Oudezijds Armsteeg 4a 1012 GP Amsterdam The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)20 420 6111 gsm: +31 (0)6 5335 4474 Siamo angeli con unala soltanto e possiamo volare solo restando abbracciati. (Luciano de Crescenzo) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is: 1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str 'm pretty sure that there are other orchestrations, though, since the overture was originally written for Aureliano in Palmira and then used in Elisabetta, Regina d'Ingilterra and I think that changes were made each time in the orchestration. Michael On 17 Feb 2006, at 17:41, Johannes Gebauer wrote: If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture. Thanks, Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
Peter, thanks, that's great! Johannes On 17.02.2006 Peter Lockwood wrote: Overture: 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in C, 2 bassoons 2 horns in E flat, 2 trumpets in A Timpani Gran Cassa Strings At 17:41 17/02/2006, you wrote: If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture. Thanks, Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote: In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is: 1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are there not (this is important for me...). Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]
Chuck Israels wrote: On Feb 17, 2006, at 7:57 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote: Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German. Now I understand Hauptbanhof better too. That's a very interesting one: a lot of Hauptbahnhöfe are in fact also Kopfbahnhöfe, and that would indeed translate into head station. (But it means a Station which is a dead end, trains only leaving in one direction). (I certainly didn't mean to be Mr wiseguy, should this have been the impression!) Not at all, Johannes, I'm happy for the information, and now this provides a little more. Many of us seem to revel in learning new things, even when their direct application to music is not as clear as it might otherwise be. And besides, music takes a lot of *train*ing, which makes this applicable! :) cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
No trombones in Ricordi critical edition (1969). 2 Trombe, yes, but that means trumpets... Peter At 18:27 17/02/2006, you wrote: On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote: In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is: 1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are there not (this is important for me...). Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Peter Lockwood Oudezijds Armsteeg 4a 1012 GP Amsterdam The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)20 420 6111 gsm: +31 (0)6 5335 4474 Siamo angeli con unala soltanto e possiamo volare solo restando abbracciati. (Luciano de Crescenzo) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote: In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is: 1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are there not (this is important for me...). Johannes In the reprint ms of the overture that I recall seeing years ago, (reprinted at the back of a printed library full score of the opera) there were no trombones or timpani. Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.) I don't believe the trombones appear again in the entire opera in the Dover-Ricordi score. It looks like it can be, and has been, performed either way with conviction. Many years ago I played it under one conductor who kept telling us to play softly, since their were no trombones in the ms. I wanted to ask him if we should leave, but I was more shy when I was young. (Anyone used to hearing the Warner Brothers cartoons will miss the trombones, of course.) RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
Darcy James Argue wrote: He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an integral part of the work, What makes you think it isn't? Though I might have said an integral part of that rendition, since, as you note, Bob does it differently each time. But there's nothing worse than someone singing a pure-voiced, perfectly in-tune Dylan cover. It's like an alto player playing one of Duke's Johnny Hodges features and straightening out all the bent notes. That's where elevator muzak' comes from. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
On 17 Feb 2006, at 19:28, Raymond Horton wrote: Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.) No, the trombone parts are original Rossini. I don't have access to the different versions of this overture that were used for the other two operas, but the trombone parts certainly come from one of these versions. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
Christopher Smith wrote: [snip] He gets teased mercilessly, but he thinks his work will go down in the annals of musicology. [snip] Sounds more like he should go down in the anals of history! :-o -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an integral part of the work, What makes you think it isn't? Though I might have said an integral part of that rendition, since, as you note, Bob does it differently each time. But there's nothing worse than someone singing a pure-voiced, perfectly in-tune Dylan cover. It's like an alto player playing one of Duke's Johnny Hodges features and straightening out all the bent notes. But on the other hand, there's also nothing worse than a singer who sings the same darn note out of tune all the time because that's how Dylan sang it on the record. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
I have the Harmonia Mundi CD entitled Ouverture featuring a lot of music from the Hamburg opera during the Baroque. I love the recording and the use of a lot of percussion instruments adds a level of vitality to the performances. Which raises a question in my mind, how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were used in all types of music of his period. Why would such instruments have been dropped during the Baroque period, especially when so much of the music of that period was based on the dance (where such additions would have been allowed). Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux?Thanks, Kim Patrick Clow ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
At 2/17/2006 01:20 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an integral part of the work, What makes you think it isn't? Didn't Cage say that coughing and sneezing during a performance meant that each performance was unique? I personally don't buy it. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux? Not as much as the use of Accordion or Bagpipes would be. Nah - it depends on how used, as always. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
Phil Daley wrote: At 2/17/2006 01:20 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an integral part of the work, What makes you think it isn't? Didn't Cage say that coughing and sneezing during a performance meant that each performance was unique? I personally don't buy it. Cage often pushed the boundaries. But, as a primarily jazz musician, I have to agree that changes in the performance make each performance an unique qork. That said, what the baudience does rarely has any significant effet. (Though the one time the drunk walked through the middle of the band did alter things noticeably). cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Contrabass and clefs
On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:50, Andrew Stiller wrote: (17th-c. orchestras had no 16' voice) Is this really true as an unqualified statement? Orchestral practice was very, very different in different places, and, of course, the whole idea of an orchestra did not really quite yet exist in the way we use it. There were certainly 16' instruments used in various repertories of vocal music with instruments (especially in Germany) and in instrumental music alone (in England, and in Italy, too; I don't know so much about French music of the period). While these weren't orchestral music, they were not so much different from music that had massed (relatively speaking) string bodies (i.e., multiple players on a part, instead of solo). I just don't think it was quite as simple as no 16' voice in 17th century orchestras would make it sound. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
Not far removed from the accordion,but mouth harps were used for basso continuo sometimes. On 2/17/06, Carl Dershem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux?Not as much as the use of Accordion or Bagpipes would be.Nah - it depends on how used, as always.cd--http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick ClowThere's really only two types of music: good and bad. ~ Rossini ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17 Feb 2006 at 1:24, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 16.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: Well, I'm not sure that alone has much utility in drawing the distinction. In the de Lalande with the missing viola part, leaving it out is going to sound different from having it in, most obviously in the parts for strings alone. But whatever one reconstructs is not creative, but implied by all the other available information. I don't see the distinction. The reconstructed viola part might still have been different, no? That means Sawkins solution was unique, and depended on him. Doesn't that make it creative? Unique by one note? Two notes? Three? There were two editions of the work with the missing viola part, and the Paillard and Sawkins reconstructions overlapped in all but a handful of notes. Hyperion alleged that Sawkins plagiarized, but there was no reason to do that (seems to me that Hyperion didn't have very good musicological advice if they didn't make the argument that any musicologist conversant in the repertory involved would likely have produced a viola part nearly identical to Sawkins's), as it's just a natural result of the highly circumscribed nature of the process of reconstructing an inner part in a piece of this nature. I wouldn't call a part differing by 1 note to be original. And my argument all along has been that the definition of original in the court decision is where things go wrong. They take the literalistic brain-dead approach (which you seem to be adocating with your question) that any exercise of judgment constitutes creativity and/or originality. The court rejected that reading in its decision and required something more than that. They then turned around and accepted the 5 or 6 notes in the viola part as sufficient (this is another example of the court's heads I win, tails you lose approach to logic, seems to me). Again, we are not talking here about what is necessary to gain copyright in an edition (a typograhical arrangement). In that context, yes, a handful of alterations are sufficient to create a unique edition. In this case, the question was how much original contribution is required to create a new work that is eligible for copyright independent from the original work. It seems to me that this is a distinction you continue to miss, Johannes, one that would be easier to grasp if you'd read the decisions (both of which are quite entertaining reading, seems to me). Bob Levin reconstructed a Mozart concerto for violin and piano (a few years ago). What came out was something that was one of millions of possible solutions to the problem. Creative? Of course! But still, in it's sense, a reconstruction. Have you been reading my messages to the list the last few days, Johannes? If you had been, you would have read me repeatedly giving examples of reconstructive work that would be sufficiently original (creative was a word the judges rejected as having no legal meaning) to merit copyright as an independent work (rather than as a mere typographical arrangement). The distinction here that you repeatedly seem to miss is that this case was not about the typographical arrangement but about when an edition of a work includes sufficient original contributions from the editor to merit being treated as a work independent from the original for the purposes of determining eligibility for royalties from performers and recording companies. My understanding of all of this from all the reading I've done is that prior to this case, UK law had no such accomodations in it for editions at all, which were considered to never able to be sufficiently original to justify royalties. This case changed all that by defining a standard of originality that had to be met to merit the copyright in the edition as a work of music (i.e., that the piece of music that the printed edition (which has its own copyright as a typographical arrangement) conveys is itself copyrightable because it is an independent musical expression), which is what is required under UK law to be eligible for the performance/recording royalties that Sawkins demanded (in contradiction to the standard practice and the interpretation of UK copyright law up to the point that Sawkins won his lawsuit). My position is that there are editions that obviously stand as pieces of music independent of the sources they are drawn from (most especially when those editions include major reconstructive work from incomplete sources). I agree that Sawkins edition as described does include some reconstruction. But that reconstructive work is so highly circumscribed by the other existing musical material (in both the case of the viola part and the figures added to the figured bass) that it should not qualify as sufficiently original (in the legal sense of the term in the UK, as described in the text of the two judgments) to merit independent copyright. Sawkins work is entirely
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:36, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Feb 16, 2006, at 3:46 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: In the case of the missing cornet parts, my guess is that it's pretty clear that your choices are limited to to 2 or 3 different notes within any harmonic context, but the figuration and voicing need to be determined with no real information on what they should have been. I think that's overly optimistic. A cornet solo could, within the style of the composer and his period, be quite elaborate and full of non-harmonic tones of all kinds. . . . Well, I was assuming accompanimental roles for the cornets, and not any solos. . . . The guidance from the orchestral context in such a situation is really very limited, and the variety of credible solutions immense. . . . If nobody in the rest of the orchestra has the leading part, that might imply that the cornet had it at that point. But if there were a doubling of a cornet solo by another instrument, that could mask the solo role of the cornet, so, yes, you're right -- I was overly optimistic, because I was thinking of a particular kind of cornet part (from my experience with band music, as copyist and arranger). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Sawkins and Hyperion (again)
On 17 Feb 2006 at 1:10, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 16.02.2006 Ken Moore wrote: In Europe this is already the case, there is nothing new about it. Yes, but it's new to the UK. I was still under the impression that the UK was part of Europe, but I might be wrong. :-o This is one of the issues that confuses me in the whole discussion. How is it that there's so much variation in copyright law when everyone has supposedly all signed the same international treaty on the subject (Berne Convention)? What's the point of harmonizing copyright in 1978 and then having everybody write their own variations into law? In the US, Sawkins would get no copyright protection in the work conveyed (only in the printed edition; i.e., no one could photocopy it, but anybody could perform it or record it without being required to pay royalties to the editor). In Germany, he would have it as a matter of course, without needing to sue. In the UK, before his lawsuit, the situation was like the US is now, but the Sawkins case has changed the situation to be more like Germany. Then, of course, there's the US's ridiculously extended copyright terms (the Mickey Mouse Protection law, i.e., the Sony Bono Copyright Act). What's the point of an international convention if everybody then goes off in all sorts of directions 20 years after it's singed? Am I misinterpreting what's in the Berne Convention? Is it merely an agreement to honor other country's copyright laws? I thought it was more than that, but if that's all it is, then that would explain all the variability. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: As he should have. Do you really think that the argument against Sawkins has been an argument against royalties for all editions, no matter the degree of original work included in them? So where is the line? Two missing viola parts? Three? All the strings? Does an oboe part count more than a viola part? Is a bass line more valuable in baroque music than in late clssical? This is precisely the problem the court faced. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: Unique by one note? Two notes? Three? How many notes make it unique enough? 10? 100? Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Contrabass and clefs
On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:17 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:50, Andrew Stiller wrote: (17th-c. orchestras had no 16' voice) Is this really true as an unqualified statement? Orchestral practice was very, very different in different places, and, of course, the whole idea of an orchestra did not really quite yet exist in the way we use it. If by orchestra you mean a permanent (i.e., not ad-hoc) instrumental ensemble dominated by members of the violin family playing in massed sections, then yes, it apparently is unqualifiedly true. The Vingt-quatre violons du roy had no 16' voice. Lully's opera orchestra had no 16' voice. Corelli's orchestra had no 16' voice. Contrabasses (one or two) began to creep into a few orchestras (not the most important) in the 1690s, but that is the only qualification I can think of. The details (and *massive* documentation) are in _The Birth of the Orchestra_, wh. I have recommended here before. There were certainly 16' instruments used in various repertories of vocal music with instruments (especially in Germany) and in instrumental music alone (in England, and in Italy, too; I don't know so much about French music of the period). The main home of the contrabass in the 17th c. was as reinforcement for choral bass lines in church (apparently all over the world [not just Europe, NB]), and it was from there that it migrated into the orchestra ca. 1700. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: In this case, the question was how much original contribution is required to create a new work that is eligible for copyright independent from the original work. It seems to me that this is a distinction you continue to miss, Johannes, one that would be easier to grasp if you'd read the decisions (both of which are quite entertaining reading, seems to me). Imo this kind of decision is something a court of law simply cannot make. One note of originality has to be enough. If the record company doesn't like that they have plenty of other options. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
On 17.02.2006 Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Which raises a question in my mind, how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were used in all types of music of his period. Why would such instruments have been dropped during the Baroque period, especially when so much of the music of that period was based on the dance (where such additions would have been allowed). Improvised percussion was most certainly added for many things, especially in French opera (and English for that matter). Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux? Good question. I tend to think that Bach wouldn't have had one, but it's quite obviously possible to add it. On the other hand, Bach's orchestral suites are imo not at all operatic, so perhaps it would be a little weird? I recently took part in the new Naxos recording of Fireworks and Watermusic, and conductor Kevin Mallon added quite a lot of percussion, which is defintiely very authentic, as we know that Handel used military side drums and other percussion, at least for the Firewors. Great disc, btw, only came out a few weeks ago. And your's truly is on it with a little solo, too, so it's definitely worth it (and only costs 5.99 Euros over here). (Handel: Fireworks and Watermusic, The Aradia Ensemble Toronto, Kevin Mallon, conductor, also available as SACD and DVD-Audio) (Sorry about the self-promotion, incidentally I don't get royalties for it) Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music. It changed my perception of the accordion. the players were superb, and the "breathing" of the accordion gave the continuo parts a kind of life that was different from the usual harpsichord sound, but certainly no less beautiful. Always ready for good surprises.ChuckOn Feb 17, 2006, at 11:40 AM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:Not far removed from the accordion,but mouth harps were used for basso continuo sometimes. On 2/17/06, Carl Dershem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux?Not as much as the use of Accordion or Bagpipes would be.Nah - it depends on how used, as always.cd--http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick Clow"There's really only two types of music: good and bad." ~ Rossini ___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote: I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music. It changed my perception of the accordion. the players were superb, and the breathing of the accordion gave the continuo parts a kind of life that was different from the usual harpsichord sound, but certainly no less beautiful. Always ready for good surprises. I once heard a Belgian Saxophone ensemble play the Badinerie from Bach's B minor Suite. They swinged it, and I must admit it was one of the most beautiful moments I ever experienced in a peformance. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
At 01:21 PM 2/17/06 -0800, Chuck Israels wrote: I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music. Any chance that was Rip Keller and Tamas Kalmar? You should hear them do the slow movement of the Beethoven 7th on two accordions. :) Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/365-2007.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
I was once witness to a wonderful perfomance of the famous Bach Badinerieas part of the Avignon festival. The group played from the top of a tarred and featheredopen-top double decker bus and consisted of a flautist, a violinist, a cellist and a keyboard player. In front of them stood a conductor and behind them, two dark-skinned gentlemen who beat the living daylights out of cymbals and a drum in the style of a military march. The memory still brings a tear to my eye. All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.ukDulcian Wind Quintet: http://dulcianwind.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
Really? Which instruments?? On 2/17/06, Andrew Stiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? It's authenticwhere it is known to have been used (as in Handel'sMusic for the Royal Fireworks)--and not elsewhere! Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were used in all types of music of his period. No we don't. Some of the instruments hedepicts are peasantinstruments that would never have used in any of the surviving (i.e.,written) music of the period. Others are military signallinginstruments, and *none*, to the best of my knowledge, would have been used for anything more exalted than social dance music--i.e., pop.My wife coinedthe term tinkleplunk as a measure of the degree towhich a modern Renaissance ensemble is willing to pander to a modern audience. The more percussion and other inappropriate instruments, themore lowbrow and Renaissance Faireish.Andrew StillerKallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/___Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick ClowThere's really only two types of music: good and bad. ~ Rossini ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Record Collectors?
Hi all, I have a friend that has a pretty extensive record collection (yes, actual vinyl...:-)) and is looking to sell it. Is there anyone on this list who is a record collector or might know someone who is? My friend has everything in an Excel spreadsheet so it would be very easy for someone to take a look at it. He's threatening to haul everything down to Amoeba Music (a used record store here in LA) and I'm trying to get him to have someone who might know more about record collecting to have a look at it first. He has a lot of the original Jazz recordings; Blue Note, Verve etc. along with some of the original Beatles records too. My heart breaks thinking about them going anywhere but where someone would really be able to appreciate them. It is a collection he has been working on for many years. Feel free to e-mail me off list if you'd rather :-) Thanks very much in advance! Have a great weekend. Best, Karen ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:14, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: I don't see how they could have known better, as they were operating under the to-then-standard interpretation of the applicable UK copyright law. I am by no means a lawer, but I believe you do not fully understand how European law functions. There are aspects of European law which are above national law. There are other aspects where national law has to be changed to comply with European standards. And there are aspects where national law still stands above European law (when it touches constitutional aspects, but I believe the UK doesn't have a constitution.) Well, you're right -- I don't know that much about how European law operates. I do know that the UK tries to keep itself somewhat separate from the rest of Europe. I also know that the law considered in the appeals decision was entirely UK law. Indeed, the decision explicitly rejects as a basis for its findings a French decision in Sawkins's favor. That seems to indicate that it's not just me who thinks that European law doesn't apply, but also the judges on the UK appeals court who heard the case. But perhaps they were wrong and you, the non-lawyer who lives outside the UK, actually understand the applicable law better than sitting UK judges. Whatever the case, it is becoming a little boring now. I've found it quite boring to have to repeatedly reiterate the facts of the case, yes. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:16, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: As he should have. Do you really think that the argument against Sawkins has been an argument against royalties for all editions, no matter the degree of original work included in them? So where is the line? . . . Seeing as how we're talking about music here, the answer is that it depends entirely on the context and the facts of the individual case. That was, in fact, the way the judges in the decision approached it. They had to consider the specifics of the particular edition before making their determination, so there is no blanket requirement that royalties be paid, only when there is sufficient original contribution by the editor to justify it. . . . Two missing viola parts? Three? All the strings? Does an oboe part count more than a viola part? Is a bass line more valuable in baroque music than in late clssical? This is precisely the problem the court faced. I addressed this at length in another post. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:17, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: Unique by one note? Two notes? Three? How many notes make it unique enough? 10? 100? Uniqueness was not one of the points considered by the judges to be relevant to their determination. There were 50-odd changes by Sawkins in the piece that they threw out as not having sufficient original contributions by Sawkins to merit getting separate copyright. Again, you're discussing the issue in apparent ignorance of the facts, and this makes it quite hard to conduct a reasoned discussion. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights
On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:21, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: In this case, the question was how much original contribution is required to create a new work that is eligible for copyright independent from the original work. It seems to me that this is a distinction you continue to miss, Johannes, one that would be easier to grasp if you'd read the decisions (both of which are quite entertaining reading, seems to me). Imo this kind of decision is something a court of law simply cannot make. One note of originality has to be enough. If the record company doesn't like that they have plenty of other options. Well, that may be the way *you* see it, but the appeals court in Britain did not see it that way. And I think it's absurd to use one note as the basis for creating an independent copyright in the work. If that were the case, I could take a composition of yours, change one note and get independent copyright on the basis of that one note. I would agree, though, that a court of law is an improper forum for judging this question. That's why certain musical organizations in the UK have suggested setting up their own boards for considering and mediating these kinds of disputes, composed of people who know music but are also experienced in copyright law. That sounds very sensible to me -- let the ASCAPs and other such rights-management organizations make these determinations as independent tribunals. Of course, there's a political aspect to this, too, as can be seen in the disputes in Hollywood over credit on film scripts (mediated by the screenwriters' guild) and producing credits on films (I forget who mediates that, but there was an article in the NY Times recently about disputes on this subject), but I think it's better than forcing these things directly into a trial court where a judge has to make th edecision. Of course, in the present instance, it had to go to court, because Sawkins was asking for a change in the UK copyright law. Once that change as been made, such disputes could be mediated by a third party organization and go to trial only when the parties refuse to accept the mediator's decision. But, again, I reiterate: this is not about copyright in typographical arrangements, but about copyright in the musical work conveyed in the edition. Ironically, even the typographical arrangement copyright doesn't come from just changing one note -- you can't just reprint an edition under copyright and add one change to the musical text. So, I would think your one-note rule makes even less sense for the area of copyright in the work itself. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel
Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!Iam trying to enter data aboutmusical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIA Erica Buxbaum Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
On 17 Feb 2006 at 15:21, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? It's authentic where it is known to have been used (as in Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks)--and not elsewhere! Is that a joke? We know some about performance practice, but very little. From what I remember there are some vague statements of the order of percussion instruments would be used with this kind of music but nothing notated and very little documentation of particular performances. But just because we lack exact information doesn't mean the practice of adding non-notated percussion couldn't be fully authentic. It really does depend. The exact nature of what the instruments played is itself highly speculative, though, even when we know the instruments were used. But we don't know much about appropriate performance for lots of notated music, either (e.g., Parisian organum). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:31, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 17.02.2006 Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux? Good question. I tend to think that Bach wouldn't have had one, but it's quite obviously possible to add it. On the other hand, Bach's orchestral suites are imo not at all operatic, so perhaps it would be a little weird? I think it's important to ask three questions: 1. what would Bach have done? 2. what would Bach have preferred? 3. what would contemporaries, given Bach's music to perform, have done? The answers have different degrees of applicability to what the modern performer can choose to do. And, of course, it depends on the aim of your performance, to recreate or to re-imagine for our own time. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel
On 17 Feb 2006 at 15:05, eshbmusic1 wrote: Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual! I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIA Erica Buxbaum Enter 3/4 instead of just 3/4. That tells Excel that you're entering text and not numbers. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel
On Feb 17, 2006, at 6:05 PM, eshbmusic1 wrote: Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual! I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIA Erica Buxbaum You don't say what you are using the data for, but if you format the cell as Text, it will keep the entries you make exactly as you enter them, and not reduce or transform them in any way. If you need the cell to stay numerical, you may be out of luck, but I can't imagine what would cause that need. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel
Have you tried to enter an apostrophe (unshifted quote)? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of eshbmusic1 Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:05 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual! Iam trying to enter data aboutmusical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIA Erica Buxbaum Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel
Thanks, everyone! I found the info about formatting as text about two pages later! But haven't found the "3/4 solution, David, so thank you.Richard Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi again, Erica,If you want to do a row or column of time signatures, go to Format - Cell(s) - General and choose Text for the cells selected. That will ensure any numbers you enter will be treated not as numbers that could be reduced but as text.Hope this helps.RichardFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of eshbmusic1Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:05 PMTo: finale@shsu.eduSubject: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!Iam trying to enter data aboutmusical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1! /2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIAErica BuxbaumRelax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
At 1:55 PM -0500 2/17/06, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I have the Harmonia Mundi CD entitled Ouverture featuring a lot of music from the Hamburg opera during the Baroque. I love the recording and the use of a lot of percussion instruments adds a level of vitality to the performances. Which raises a question in my mind, how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? Probably not authentic at all. I can't recall seeing any iconography that included percussion instruments. Opera is a different can of worms, of course, since percussion might have come under special effects, but I can't imagine even an opera composer leaving it up to a player to improvise. Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were used in all types of music of his period. Actually we know nothing of the kind. Once again, the iconography does not, in general, support your statement. And all types certainly includes sacred music, which I really can't picture with improvised percussion. Why would such instruments have been dropped during the Baroque period, especially when so much of the music of that period was based on the dance (where such additions would have been allowed). Again, you are taking a 20th century viewpoint and arguing from 20th century assumptions. Iconography from the Burgundian court (14th-15th centuries) show a typical dance band consisting of two shawms improvising over a cantus firmus played by a slide trumpet. No percussion. In fact the only percussion shown is the tabor drum of the pipe tabor player. If the painters of the time didn't show percussion, how can assume it was used. And of course there's no real indication that minuets, allemands, corentes and gigues would have allowed the addition of percussion. Again, the iconography simply doesn't show it. That said, however, I have felt free to add percussion to very selected medieval or renaissance music for which I felt it appropriate, but not in general and not all the time and not always in dance music. Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux? Yes. But you go right ahead if you're the conductor and it's your band! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel
Thanks, everyone! I found the info about formatting as text about two pages later! But haven't found the "3/4 solution, David, so thank you.Richard Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi again, Erica,If you want to do a row or column of time signatures, go to Format - Cell(s) - General and choose Text for the cells selected. That will ensure any numbers you enter will be treated not as numbers that could be reduced but as text.Hope this helps.RichardFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of eshbmusic1Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:05 PMTo: finale@shsu.eduSubject: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!Iam trying to enter data aboutmusical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1! /2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIAErica BuxbaumRelax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
Hi Dennis, I've no idea who these folks were. The cellist was a woman, and the occasion was a going away party for one of the violinists in the pit orchestra of Promises, Promises who was leaving for a teaching position in Athens, GA. Must have been 1968-69, a long time ago. Wish I could remember more. Chuck On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:21 PM 2/17/06 -0800, Chuck Israels wrote: I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music. Any chance that was Rip Keller and Tamas Kalmar? You should hear them do the slow movement of the Beethoven 7th on two accordions. :) Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/365-2007.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Record Collectors?
Hi Karen, I have one too - with all kinds of stuff I'd like to sell, but it's not organized. No idea what it's worth, but people tell me it's Ebay fodder. Besides a good jazz collection, I have many pristine recordings of 20th Century things I collected when we used to get LP's (as NARAS members) for a buck and a half apiece. I just bought anything I thought might be interesting back in the days when I thought I'd have time to listen to a lot of new music. I bet I have 500 LP's in the basement. Chuck On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Karen wrote: Hi all, I have a friend that has a pretty extensive record collection (yes, actual vinyl...:-)) and is looking to sell it. Is there anyone on this list who is a record collector or might know someone who is? My friend has everything in an Excel spreadsheet so it would be very easy for someone to take a look at it. He's threatening to haul everything down to Amoeba Music (a used record store here in LA) and I'm trying to get him to have someone who might know more about record collecting to have a look at it first. He has a lot of the original Jazz recordings; Blue Note, Verve etc. along with some of the original Beatles records too. My heart breaks thinking about them going anywhere but where someone would really be able to appreciate them. It is a collection he has been working on for many years. Feel free to e-mail me off list if you'd rather :-) Thanks very much in advance! Have a great weekend. Best, Karen ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
On 17 Feb 2006 at 18:56, John Howell wrote: Again, you are taking a 20th century viewpoint and arguing from 20th century assumptions. Iconography from the Burgundian court (14th-15th centuries) show a typical dance band consisting of two shawms improvising over a cantus firmus played by a slide trumpet. No percussion. In fact the only percussion shown is the tabor drum of the pipe tabor player. If the painters of the time didn't show percussion, how can assume it was used. Well, not to dispute your actual point, but it's important to remember that we can't treat iconographic sources as though they were photographs of real events. That's quite clear from the bizarro playing techniques we see in any number of depictions of stringed instruments, or in the keyboards with the wrong number of keys and so forth. The contents of paintings and engravings was often not depicting a real incident so much as it was intended to bring together a number of visual elements for their symbolic meaning. Seen in that way, we can't really say if the relative absence of percussion in period icnography really means that the instruments were not used. Nor would the inclusion of them necessarily prove that they were. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Contrabass and clefs
At 3:40 PM -0500 2/17/06, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:17 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:50, Andrew Stiller wrote: (17th-c. orchestras had no 16' voice) Is this really true as an unqualified statement? Orchestral practice was very, very different in different places, and, of course, the whole idea of an orchestra did not really quite yet exist in the way we use it. I would prefer to state it differently: 17th century orchestras did not REQUIRE a 16' voice. However ... Monteverdi specifies both contrabass violin and contrabass viol in the 1607 score to L'Orfeo. Perhaps a pickup orchestra, but closely modeled on descriptions of the varied instrumentation described in the performances of 16th century intermedii. Praetorius shows us the instrument itself, which sort of implies that it was known and used by 1618 in southern Germany. Schütz specifically calls for contrabass or violone in some music, but I can't remember which. Possibly in the Funeral Music. One assumes that he had a regular group of musicians where he worked, the direct ancestors of what became the orchestra. Corelli may not have specified violone in his concertos, but specifically mentions it as appropriate for his church sonatas. If by orchestra you mean a permanent (i.e., not ad-hoc) instrumental ensemble dominated by members of the violin family playing in massed sections, then yes, it apparently is unqualifiedly true. The Vingt-quatre violons du roy had no 16' voice. Lully's opera orchestra had no 16' voice. Corelli's orchestra had no 16' voice. Contrabasses (one or two) began to creep into a few orchestras (not the most important) in the 1690s, but that is the only qualification I can think of. The details (and *massive* documentation) are in _The Birth of the Orchestra_, wh. I have recommended here before. We can both cite examples, which simply means that practice had not become hard and fast, but I would have to question any dogmatic statement that 16' instruments did not exist or were not used in the entire 17th century. As to massed sections, the numbers were certainly no more than we would call a chamber orchestra today. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
On 2/17/06, Andrew Stiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My wife coined the term "tinkleplunk" as a measure of the degree towhich a modern Renaissance ensemble is willing to pander to a modern audience. The more percussion and other inappropriate instruments, themore lowbrow and "Renaissance Faire"ish. I can imagine any number of "tinkleplunk-ish" (nice word) panderings applied to many kinds of music, many of which I might well abhor. Still, if any of my music is around in hundreds of years, I hope that some thoughtful person of good judgment will think to apply 21st or 22nd Century techniques as he/she might imagine I'd like them applied, to make my music more "receivable" by contemporary ears, rather than trying to recreate a long gone atmosphere of a bygone era that is no longer applicable.I understand, this is a risky wish, but I prefer it (in my fantasy) to a "purist" approach that would be more likely to keep the deeper meaning of the music from reaching the ears of future listeners.There's a lot to consider here. What I would not want, and do not want, is the use of a "more modern" electric bass, or probably even an amplified acoustic bass, and a rock drummer's esthetic, applied to my music, no matter how many more listeners it might get me, because that would surely ruin my intentions (and my idea of balances). On the other hand, changes in instrumental timbre might not mess things up all that much, and I've re-orchestrated some of my own work (as Stravinsky did - not that I compare my work to his) to no big detrimental effect. I always think it's possible to ruin Bach's music, but the architecture is so strong that really destroying its deep meaning takes a determined musical demolition force.Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Record Collectors?
Hi Chuck, I'll bet you have some great stuff too! I have a soft spot in my heart for the vinyl recordings...I love the way a record sounds clicks, scratch and all! I still have several records in my possession as well :-) I inherited my grandfather's Louis Amstrong records...they are some of my favorites. Just couldn't part with them! :-) Hope you guys are finally getting some sunshine up there! Warmly, -K On Feb 17, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hi Karen, I have one too - with all kinds of stuff I'd like to sell, but it's not organized. No idea what it's worth, but people tell me it's Ebay fodder. Besides a good jazz collection, I have many pristine recordings of 20th Century things I collected when we used to get LP's (as NARAS members) for a buck and a half apiece. I just bought anything I thought might be interesting back in the days when I thought I'd have time to listen to a lot of new music. I bet I have 500 LP's in the basement. Chuck On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Karen wrote: Hi all, I have a friend that has a pretty extensive record collection (yes, actual vinyl...:-)) and is looking to sell it. Is there anyone on this list who is a record collector or might know someone who is? My friend has everything in an Excel spreadsheet so it would be very easy for someone to take a look at it. He's threatening to haul everything down to Amoeba Music (a used record store here in LA) and I'm trying to get him to have someone who might know more about record collecting to have a look at it first. He has a lot of the original Jazz recordings; Blue Note, Verve etc. along with some of the original Beatles records too. My heart breaks thinking about them going anywhere but where someone would really be able to appreciate them. It is a collection he has been working on for many years. Feel free to e- mail me off list if you'd rather :-) Thanks very much in advance! Have a great weekend. Best, Karen ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Not far removed from the accordion,but mouth harps were used for basso continuo sometimes. Not far removed? We generally seat them on the other side of the orchestra! (Just through the double doors and behind the stairs, when possible). cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
On 17 Feb 2006, at 19:28, Raymond Horton wrote: Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.) Michael Cook wrote: No, the trombone parts are original Rossini. I don't have access to the different versions of this overture that were used for the other two operas, but the trombone parts certainly come from one of these versions. ___ Michael, please note that I purposely did not say someone ELSE added the trombone parts. I said SOMEONE, specifically to leave open the possibility that it was the composer. I just had the internal evidence: The parts seem to be old, (before the later 19th century when the valve tenor trombone took over in Italy, because the first part is quite high, putting it sqarely in alto trombone register). This would put the parts more likely in the composers pen than a later arranger, if all on I had to guess were the notes themselves. Since you have other evidence, that I don't I'll take your word. (Although I recall seeing a score, many years ago, with the first part not so high, so that is another confusion. Perhaps Rossini revised it for another performance with no alto trombone?) Does the first trombone part you have go up to high D at the breakup strain in the middle? RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] finger tremolos
Can anyone tell me what the French terminology is for finger tremolo in string instruments? Thanks John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
