it must be in the air
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All these problems... what is in the air We came home from vacation a few weeks ago to find our livestock guard dog stud with a gaping hole in his leg. 33 stitches and $585 later he was back together, but the skin was in bad shape and we fought infections along the way. Finally, after much tlc the leg is -almost- healed now. With the dog's help, we figured out what happened. Found some of his fur along the fence where our sheep were pastured on a dead end road, and learned there had been a big party on my leased farm while we were gone. People were racing their mud bogging trucks past the sheep. I can just picture Koci trying to stop those trucks from 'chasing' his sheep. when one of the mud boggers approached me, Koci went balistic (not normal for him). That was enough evidence for me! then if that was not enough, just this past week i was deworming sheep with injectible ivermenctin. I had my supplies in a plastic bag hanging on a post in the corral, while I put the sheep into the holding pen. While I was busy doing that, unknown to me, my two new Tatra puppies were busy chewing on the bag, and then chewed a 100+ ml bottle of Ivomec. They chewed off the end and I found one bottle empty, the other leaking. Only 5-10 cc would have been a lethal dose, over 100 cc were missing. Apparently a guardian angel was watching over them, because they never got ill. My vet joked that at least they would be worm free, but I did not find that very funny at the time. For those who have experienced colic, be aware sometimes it can be the grain, especially if your feed is made at a mill that does a lot of cattle feeds. Be sure to require that the mixer be cleaned out before making horse feeds. Rumensin is very toxic to horses and is used in cattle feeds, even a small amount of residual in the boot of the mixer could be enough to cause colic. I ran into this when I had a custom mineral mix made up, the small volume of the mineral mix meant that the rumensin was not diluted much, and my horse colicked on the mineral. If you ever suspect something is wrong with the feed, save an unopened bag from that batch for testing later. If the bag is opened, the mill can always claim it got contaminated at your farm. Because I cannot trust our local mill, (they are inherantly lazy) I've decided to feed only whole oats purchased elsewhere, and a commercial pelleted supplement to avoid a repeat occurance. Also for those in dry or drought conditions, most plant poisonings happen when drought limits the avaialable pasture. Janet
glory bit
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I purchased a glory butterfly bit for a mare that sometimes would defy my cues in the regular half cheek snaffle when I was driving from the ground. The butterfly gave me the extra control I needed. Is there any reason I cannot use the Glory butterfly as a riding bit? Janet
livestock guard dogs
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:12:56 -0700 > From: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Cougars & imprinting > > This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi, just what kind of "stock dogs" would drive off a cougar and also not be > dangerous to people? Jean PS I am in a rush so have not had time to read > all of my mail. Our newspaper is going to give me coverage about the cougar > which should alert people in the area. Hi Jean, there are many breeds, all close cousins to each other and include: Anatolian Akbash Great Pyrenese Kuvasz Komondor Maremma Pyrenean Mastif Spanish Mastif Tatra and many others. Most of these dogs have been selected to bond to livestock, ward off predators, yet be safe around people. Even though they might be very intimidating to a visiting stranger, they are very bite inhibited around people (except for some members of the Kuvasz and Komondor). keep in mind, for the last umpteen hundred years, sheep were kept in folds right on the edge of a village, and the sheep were taken every day out to the mountain pastures, so the dogs could not be a menace to the local people. (bark, yes... bite, no). I have Maremmas and Tatras (and a pair of AnatolianX Maremma X Tatra males). My vet always marvels how such an unsocialized dog (mine are reared with minimal human contact to enhance their bonds to livestock) can be handled without incident. My highly socialized border collies give him a tougher time! All I can say is they are marvelously unique dogs in the dog world. My pair of crossbreds have kept a bear up a tree every night for the whole month of July, until they finally chased him accross the interstate. I think the bear got stuck over on this side and was reluctant to go back until he had sufficient incentive! There is a whole story behind that one I also had a kuvasz succesfully save a ewe from a cougar (and left his front teeth in the cat). That cougar was later captured after it attacked a yearling horse nearby. For single large predators like cats and bears, I highly recommend a pair of dogs, and for wolves, you need more dogs than there are wolves in the pack...its like a street gang effect, which gang is bigger, and stronger. Some breeds have a history with horses, such as the Kuvasz, which were used to guard herds from people more than predators (possibly why this breed is a little more willing to bite people?). Maybe more than y'all wanted to know, but by the sounds of it, a lot of you are living in cougar country I think I'd ad a couple guard dogs to the paddock! Janet PS...yes we have pups on the way
raising the standards
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What ever happens to Fjord show standards, I have one request. don't forget the entry level owner who would like to show in some more 'relaxed' classes. I'm sure I'm not the only person who does not want to make a carreer out of showing, but would like to get our Fjords to the occaisional Fjord show to see how they compare to the rest of the Fjord world or just for fun. If the requirements for the class become too difficult (i.e.require specialized equipment I cannot use anywhere else), I won't be there. I'm not talking about relaxing the spit and polish, but I am referring to having to go purchase expensive specialized equipment/clothing required only for the show ring. Small things like gloves and lap robes are not a problem, but vehicles sure could be. I think having classes that appeal to and encourage newcomers are very important to the promotion of any breed. If there are no classes that make it easy to begin showing Fjords, for this large segment of horse owners, then you will loose potential buyers. Janet
cougar
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jean, My grandpa was an outfitter ranch hand years ago in Estes Park Co. Grandma wrote story after story about cougars trying to get into the horse barn, seems that horses are high on their list of preferred prey. Yearlings and foals are the preferred target. I don't mean to alarm you but I'd surely take precautions. If cougars are a normal part of the wild life, I suggest adding a pair of livestock guarding dogs. Janet
imprint training pays off
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Having heard debate by some about the value of imprint training, just want to say that last night imprint training (and that marvelous sensible Fjord temperment) saved my 2 month old filly's leg. My horses delighted that it had cooled off, were tearing around the pasture. Some one knocked into the HT wire fence and a strainer leg go wrapping the wire around the filly's leg. It was dark, and of course everyone was in that frolicking mood, but when I noted the Filly was not with them, I went to investigate. There she stood like a statue, holding her hind leg up, with the wire rather snuggly wrapped around the cannon bone in a knot. She occaisionally shook the foot like a cat shakes water off her paw, but when it would not let go, she just resumed calmly standing there. I had no lead rope handy, or anyway to make her stand still, so just walked up to her, and had to work about 2-3 minutes to unsnare her leg. She did not move one iota and let me take the snare off her leg. When done, I had to grab her forelock and make her walk away from the trap to let her know she was free. I think most horses would have pannicked until they hit the end of that wire, and then would have ripped the skin off their leg fighting the wire. when I imprinted her, part of the training was to snare each foot with a rope and to hold it until she no longer fought the rope. At the time, she was very inclined to fight restraint of her feet, even though just born. I think the effort just paid off! Janet
carts
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > With all the knowledge here Can anyone give me some input on a beginner > cart. I have 2 Fjords and plan to start their driving training with a > trainer but when we get to a point to bring them home I need to have a cart > to keep up the good work. Something that would go single or double would be > nice but I don't know if that is a option. > > You can tell I haven't got a clue yet. > > Any opinions would be appreciated. > Roberta in dry dusty MN. > > If you have one for sale in MN let me know > Hi Roberta, If you can get down to Cannon Falls on hwy 52 south of St Paul, there is a little tack store next to the super america gas station (you have to get off of 52 at the light). In there are some nice rugged single horse carts made locally. He has a web site, but cannot recall the name of the cart. If you want to drive a pair, and just want something for training/utility, I'd prefer the fore cart, it is a heavy rugged cart. There were lots of them at the Princeton (MN) draft horse sale this spring. Not sure if they do a fall sale or not. Waverly Iowa has a fall sale, I'm sure there will be fore carts there as well. Janet
working 3 year olds
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:10:49 -0800 > From: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: working 3 year olds (LONG reply) > Thanks Jean, that was excellent! Janet
working 3 year olds
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Jean, thanks for the very detailed explanation of bone development. My question is, what is the consequences of work at too young an age, and exactly what is 'too much'? Janet
collar hair
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have the same problem, so also interested in solutions. the only thing that helps some, is I keep the mane shorter from the region where the collar sits, to the withers, but we have a semi permanent squiggle in the mane from the collar.. Janet
waverly prices
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> someone wrote regarding the posting of prices at waverly: I do not believe posting this to the list is favorable to the fjord horse. The reason being, if you bought your fjord mare for $5000. and now you see these prices posted on the list, would you not consider that you paid too much for your mare? -- ?? I do not see a problem with reporting a sale, it is factual information, and most know that auction prices such as these are not going to be the same as a horse trained and presented for sale on one's farm. Auctions present an element of risk, and prices usually reflect that. thankyou to Janne for taking the time to post the prices to the list. Janet
bird nest over horse
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jean wrote: Now I am wondering if my bit Trakehner has "pigeon" problems. A bird had been nesting over where he liked to stand. I was cleaning bird droppings off his left hip. Sometime later I noticed there was a wavy spot in the hair and heat plus fluid dripping from the about six inch by six area. - Many birds often carry mites, and those mite infections can be quite horrible. I would not want a bird cleaning its nest onto my horse, or even into his stall. Janet
bird nest over horse
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Janet, I wonder if bird mites can affect a horse ie chicken mites do not cause problems with horses. This was a bird roost not nest, but probably does not make a difference. Jean Hi Jean, while the horse won't become a host to the mites, the simple irritation of having large numbers land and crawl on the skin would cause a reaction. I have seen this happen to sheep that bedded down under a barn swallow nest. Janet
free feeding hay/ towing trucks
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> re: free choice round bales... the trick to prevent obesity is to select lower quality hay, so they can eat as much as they want. High fiber (NDF > 55) restricts intake by filling them up...kinda like high fiber unsugared cereal...only so much you will eat. the draw back is they do get a hay belly from the volume of hay they consume. This dissapears in a couple of months of restricted feeding higher quality feed, but is not the look you want if you show your horses. re: towing trucks, it is not just wether your truck can pull the trailer, but how well it can stop. be sure that trailer has good brakes of its own as a dakota is rather light in weight and without trailer brakes, the trailer will push the truck. Also, you may do ok on flat land, but take that rig into hills and mountains, and I become rather dubious that you have enough truck. Janet W McNally
border collies
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I forgot to add my 2 cents about the border collie biting tires. Yes, that is another breed that has more biters than many. The BC is a working dog, bred to stalk and chase. I've been lucky and owned some very sweet dogs, but have met plenty of bc's who are quick to defend their space. re: chasing cars, I have a rule with bc puppies, I never let them run along side our wheels. They -always- ride. I've Never had a bc grow up that thinks it should chase a car, they think cars are for riding in. Of course that means whenever a visitor leaves their door open, our dogs jump in, mud and all. Janet
dogs...multiple posts..border collies
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My appologies about the multiple posts, I tried sending from a different computer, and do not know why it sent three copies of everything I wrote! enough has been said. like always, buyer beware! learn about your breed. Janet
dogs
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Apparently my comment earlier, that the Rottweiler is bred > and used for fighting was completely ignored. Briged wrote: >Probably because it's false. Rottweilers are draft dogs, that's why they are >built like draft horses. Because of that size, they make very poor fighters. - Well despite your opinion, they are evidently popular among the dog fighting crowd. I had to learn about the dog fighting business the hard way, many years ago, one of our dogs was stolen, along with scores of other dogs in this very small community. Eventually some of the dogs were found at one of the largest 'pit bull' fighting ring leaders in the nation, who lived about 20 miles away. (I doubt he was one of the street variety you referred to) Law enforcement looked the other way, because I was told, they wanted to get him on 'bigger things' other than the 'petty' crime of stealing dogs. They eventually did, and busted him for good, but meanwhile I had to learn about where the dogs were going. In the process I learned that Rottweilers were every bit, as popular for fighting dogs, not just here but nation wide. This particular individual bred and sold many Rottweilers, and advertised them locally as family pets, so I also disagree with your statement that only bad owners make dangerous dogs, because I have spoken with too many people who were sold a dog (of numerous breeds) that was misrepresented by the breeder. Too many innocent, well intentioned people -think- they are buying a suitable family pet because that is how the breed was represented to them. It goes two ways... owners need to be informed, but if the breeders are misinforming the buyers to make a sale, or are not taking care to place puppies in properly educated homes, (same can be true of Fjords!), then I'm not exactly sure the owner/buyer is always the one to blame. And this is exactly why I got involved in this discussion, because the portrayal of the Rottweiler as being no different than a Labrador retriever, is incorrect, and contributes to people buying dogs not suited for their needs. >That's right. Fight DOGS. Not people. In my years at the shelter I handled >hundreds, if not thousands, of fighting pit bulls. Very, very few were >aggressive towards people. Sorry, but Pit bulls and Rotweilers are making the news for killing people for a reason. like I said, a nasty cocker might bite a few people, but I have never heard of a child being killed by one, that is why they don't make the news. Meanwhile the number of people killed by Rotweilers is becoming an annual occurancesurey that says something. Janet W McNally
dogs
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Bad dogs MAIMING AND KILLING people are the result of bad owners. No, this is not true, some dogs are bred to have low trigger points, and to attack to the death, it is programmed into their head by years of selection by people who think it is sporting to fight dogs. The Rottweiler is one of these breeds. It has nothing to do with good/bad owners, except that it takes an exceptionally knowlegeable owner to safely handle a dog bred to attack. The average pet owner is not cut out to do this, no matter how good their care and intentions. Apparently my comment earlier, that the Rottweiler is bred and used for fighting was completely ignored. No the Rottweiler is not just like any other companion dog, it is a working dog that has more recently been used for purposes contrary to being a safe family pet. This is not to say there are not Rotties, bred by conciencious breeders, that make good companion dogs, there certainly are, but if you choose this (and a number of other guard type breeds), you have to aknowlege that they *are* different from say a labrador retriever, otherwise you are headed for trouble. Sure all dogs have the potential to bite, but only certain breeds have been bred to attack and shred their victem to death. Folks, there is a huge difference in the outcome! A nasty cocker is not going to kill me, but a Rottweiler just might. No dog breed is all purpose. The differences are not just skin deep. If you want a good safe family companion dog, choose a breed that is bred to be a safe family companion. Sure, any dog can bite, but cocker spanials (or retrievers, or a vast array of sporting/companion dogs) are -not- the ones making the news for shredding toddlers. There is a good reason for this!! Many people fall in love with various types of working breeds, but fail to learn and understand what the dog was bred to do.Rottweilers are working dogs and Rottweiler owners need to learn about the breed and accomodate (i.e. take precaution) how that breed differs from the others. Janet W McNally
rottweilers, fjords, and predators
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just a few comments on a couple of topics here. Sue, I am so very sorry about the tragedy in your neighborhood. What an awful thing to have happen. What I can contribute to this discussion, is that I manage 8 adult livestock guard dogs here on my farm and have made a few observations about dog behavior, esp pack behavior. A few observations are: It is amazing to see how any dog can change its attitude when in a pack. Even the timid or mellow dogs will jump in and get a few bites in, when two or more dogs start a fight. Pack mentality turns -any- dog into a whole nuther animal regardless of obedience titles! Dogs make errors. Even one or two of our very trustworthy sheep guard dogs have rushed up and grabbed a newborn lamb, because it was the first black lamb they have ever seen, and simply mistook it for something else. Dogs perceive people differently as individuals for reasons we cannot predict. Just because your dog is gentle with your child, does not mean it can be trusted with a child it is not familiar with, -and- you honestly cannot predict how any dog of any breed will react to a stranger. Lastly, Rottie owners need to realize that their breed is a favorite among the underground dog fighting crowd. We always hear about the pit bulls, but truth is a lot of Rotties are bred and used for fighting. I know about this because for a long while we had a 'pit bull' fighting ring in this area. These people were responsible for a tremendous amount of dog theft in our neighborhood. The leader was a Rottweiler breeder who advertised his dogs as companions suitable for grandmothers. Dogs used for fighting need to have a low trigger point, that is they have to be easy to provoke to provide what some call 'entertainment'. Our sheep guarding dogs are the opposite, they have miles of patients and avoid fighting if they can. So while I agree that any breed can bite, you have to realize that some breeds are much quicker to react aggressively, and based on the Rotties popularity in the underground, I'd guess they have hair triggers. Display of protective behavior is not related to the odds the dog will bite. You've heard the expression all bark and no bite. The reverse is what catches people unaware, an unassuming gentle pet, might be the dog that is first to viscously bite when provoked. Ruthie is right, intact dogs are more likely to bite, and the majority of all dog bites are done by a male dog guarding a female that is in season (and that is all that was necessary to trigger the attack on a child from what might have normally been very gentle household pets). Two other reasons dogs bite is that they are protecting what they percieve as food, or they feel trapped. re: the comment that more bites are from Labrador retrievers, Labrador Retrievers are among the most numerous breeds in the country, and are especially popular as family pets for children. I have yet to hear of a pack of Labradors killing any child, but can think of four instances in the past three years where Rottweilers have made the news for mauling children and adults to death. When considered as bites per thousand dogs, I think you will find the Labrador quite low on the list, and certainly not lethal. Look at the facts, Rottweilers can be very dangerous dogs when placed in the wrong situation. Having said all of that, all of the Rottweilers I have met have been very sweet dogs. But if I owned one, I would most certainly be careful not to leave one alone with my children, and would provide a safe kennel to house the dogs when the kids friends come over to visit. A brief comment about Fjords and predators. It has been my observation that Fjords are quite capable of protecting themselves if faced with one or two predators at a time. However, if faced with a pack of dogs, or wolves, there is danger they may run into something that would injure them. I'll never forget the slide the wildlife service people like to show around here at their talks to livestock producers in MN. The object of the slide was to prove that just because wolves are present does not mean wolves do the killing. The slide was of a horse that was found dead in the woods. Based on the tooth marks in the hide, and tracks on the ground, the owner concluded that wolves had killed the horse. The WS people proudly show the autopsy, which showed the horse had been impaled by a low tree branch, so the cause of death was to injury, not wolves. Of course they never stopped to ask the question, so why was the horse running through the woods such that it would become impaled by a tree Janet W McNally
Horse & Camels and other exotics
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Taffy wrote: "They feel the camel and others animals pose a threat while exhibitors/members work and show their horses on the grounds. Can anyone help me out with some input from current/past experiences?" Hi Taffy, Yes, get a camel, so your horses become farmiliar with the sight/sound/smell of camels. more seriously, maybe you can ask the camel owner to facilitate introducing the saddle club horses to the camel. When I was a kid, one of the shows I went to had a ring right along a RR track. It was so loud, we had to stop the classes momentarily when a train went by, not to mention some horses spooked. Solution? bring your horse between shows and get him used to the train. It is not the fault of the camel owner that horses spook from unfamiliar things. Janet
fjord marketing
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> thanks for the ideas (about having color photos on the table, and using b&w copies). The care and feeding of my color printer does get me bummed sometimes. Trust me, we are far from most services, but our local small town newspaper does have a copy machine that can do the b&w. I did get some fuzzy shots... just in case he does not shed soon enough! Janet
a lasting home
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are many good reasons a horse will change homes a number of times. The example of the child's pony being sold as children grows is an excellent one. Circumstances change for the owners, such as a move, or change of employment. Horses are sold when owners feel their changed circumstances do not allow enough time to properly care for their horse. For myself, arthritis dictated that 20 mile rides was no longer in the cards for me, so I switched from riding to driving/draft work. My TWH gelding, who I raised since a yearling, and was a perfect gentleman, -loved- to eat up miles of trail, it was a shame and waste to have him sit idle in a pasture, so I sold him to someone who wanted a good trail horse. Selling is not a negative when it means the horse is able to remain performing the kind of work and attention it enjoys. Janet
marketing fjords
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Janet wrote: >> Each copy will cost 50 cents to print off my own printer100 >> copies = $50. Steve asked > Is that on the gold plated paper? I can't even begin to imagine what > kind of copies you're making for 50 cents each. No Steve, that is the cost of printing color photos on photo quality paper on my HP printer. I do hundreds of brochures each year selling lamb and sheep, and have that cost pretty well figured out. My cost agrees with what I've read elsewhere regarding home PC's. Those $30 color ink cartridges don't go very farthat is if you are fussy what color your Fjord comes out as. Janet
kinkos...
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Steve.. btw, the nearest Kinkos is 90 miles away! Janet
Marketing Fjords
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Steve wrote: So, what is wrong? Everyone seems to agree that seeing a live Fjord is the breeds best sales tool. So why is it so hard to get folks to send sales lists or farm brochures to people who are taking their time to go to Expos and sell Fjords. - Speaking just for myself it has only been a month since the request came out, and my gelding is fuzzier than ever.I'm hoping to shed some hair before we take photos for advertising, and it is not as free as it sounds. Each copy will cost 50 cents to print off my own printer100 copies = $50. So I have to weigh that against other advertising alternatives, although, at this time, it isn't stopping me however, the fact that my printer is shredding paper is. Janet W McNally
easyboots and heels
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have never tried the Mac's, but we used easy boots on several extended horse camping trips including the granite trails of the Mt Rushmore area (that's a warning if you are headed there). The easy boots performed very well on three of the four horses, with the only problem being one large pony who had very shallow heels. The boots were a tad bit deep for her, and the top metal crimps were crowding the softer coronary band. We clinched the top crimps so they would not grab, and put vet wrap and duct tape on her heels and got along ok with that tacky looking bandage (and hoped to heck we would not meet anyone on the trail). My obs so far is that most Fjords have very deep heels, so I doubt this would be a likely problem in Fjords. The boots were tough, and despite lots of miles never wore out. We did have problems with the clamps coroding in storage though. Janet W McNally
inbreeding coefficients
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Steve wrote: "In any breed that has much close breeding in its history, calculating accurate inbreeding coefficients becomes a job for computer software rather than pencil and paper, but it is something that perhaps should be additionally considered in deciding pairings for breeding." actually, it would be very helpful to have inbreeding coefficients available on the pedigrees of horses on the NFR website. not sure how difficult that would be. Janet W McNally
Inbreeding coefficients
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The inbreeding coefficient for the offpsring of half sib matings is 12.5% The inbreeding coefficient for the offspring of full sib matings is 25% Offspring of Sire Daughter matings (or mother/son) is 25% These all assume there was no prior inbreeding further back in the pedigree that may increase these coefficients. Hip Dysplasia in dogs was not a good example of inbreeding depression (the opposite of hybrid vigor). while hip dysplasia is indeed something that may increase in frequency with inbreeding, it is not due to the effects between paired genes, but only due to the increased frequency of genes that contribute to the condition. Inbreeding depression/hybrid vigor are due to the effects -between- paired genes. Vigor is the result of unlike genes pairing together where as depression is from like genes pairing together. One of the most common traits affected by inbreeding depression/hybrid vigor is reproduction. Highly inbred populations have difficulting reproducing while outcrossed populations have a high degree of reproductive performance. --- There is no difference between inbreeding and line breeding as far as the eventual effect it will have on the breed. The only difference is in how quickly you will arrive at the good/bad result. i.e. close inbreeding means you will find out the problems in those lines very quickly, where as distant line breeding means it may take generations. The benefit of taking it slower is that it allows culling (undesirable genes) at a level that is more manageable, and it permits a greater degree of reproductive performance. Janet W McNally
starting a load
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Joel, thankyou for the very descriptive explanation on how to start a load. I am dragging the bales, no sled. present bales are 600-750 lbs, no snow. Once she's got them moving she can move along quite well (and seems to really enjoy doing it too!). my problem is breaking them loose, some are froze slightly to the ground. If they are really, really, stuck, I stick the forks in up high and roll the bale out of the row. But most are just a little bit froze and need just a bit of a jerk to get them going. Yes, pulling left and then right, rocking them, helps get them moving too. I will work on the starts and see what we can do. At what posture is she using her weight most effectively? (describe in a little more detail what we want to see as she starts the pull, and then how she should carry herself as she pulls) Also, I see when she pulls hard, she tends to place her feet toe first, like she is trying to dig in with her toes, but then the foot falls into full contact with the ground. usually this produces some slipping/scrambling, it also looks a bit akward to me, like it could cause undue wear in the fetlock. wouldn't it be better if she placed her feet flat on the ground right off the bat? How do I encourage a better stride? I find it hard to keep her on the bit once we are in the cow yard, as both she and I are tripping over frozen cow pies, I'd rather give her her head than bang her in the mouth. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2003 #17
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > - > Could a compromise be reached where Lynda gets to post one rescue status > update once per month? I think we could all handle 12 times per year. > Maybe the sheriff could poll all of the individuals that sent him private > posts, add up the votes, yeh & neh, and then decide. Either way, I am more > than willing to continue living in our diverse 'one sheriff' town. > - --- > > Dolph Courchaine > www.fjordworld.com > I think that Dolph has a good idea. No matter what side of the rescue/slaughter issue you may be, awareness of what is going on is educational for all. I think a total ban on this topic is unfortunate. Personally I would like to hear updates on some regular basis, and I think at the very least Lynda should be permitted to have a link in her signature so anyone wanting more info can find the website quickly. A poll would be interesting. Janet W McNally
starting a load--Joel!
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Joel Harmon wrote: >They need to learn to ease into the load, not lunge & jerk into the collars Hi Joel, Maybe I am making a mistake? I am using my Fjord mare to pull 700 lb bales of hay into the cow yard. She has learned to leave a bit of slack in the traces, then walk quickly into the collar thus jerking the load to get it going. Is this going to be a mistake? or is it just necessary for the kind of work she is doing? She is not lunging, just walking three quick steps and putting some thrust into the collar. Janet
crossbreeding and attitudes
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jamie, thankyou Jamie for taking this on as a level headed debate :-) Steve, I do hope you will allow this one last post through, especially since there are a few (incorrect) accusations being thrown at me that you did permit to go public. I wish to clarify my possition. This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Well, first off, preserving the purity of the breed means not crossing >it. If it means something different to you please enlighten me. Crossbreeding is done for many different purposes. I have not yet heard anyone on this list, me or otherwise suggest that new genes should be put into the Fjord breed. Merely making crossbreds does not mean those crosses will be used to perpetuate the Fjord. What is so very important to realize, is that it is not -making- the cross that changes a breed, it is the decision to accept the crossbreds into the purebred registry that changes them. I whole heartedly agree that encorporating crossbreds into the registry would destroy the Fjord, I am in no way advocating it, and I am absolutely dead set against it. But outcrossing is a totally different purpose. Outcrossing is where a -purebred- is used to produce a cross on another breed or grade. Usually this is done with the rarer breed stallion as presumedly the mares of the other breed are either lesser quality or more plentiful. This has been done throughout history where either the half bred is the desired product, or where improvement (grading up) is needed in the other breed. Outcrossing does -not- change the purebred used for outcrossing as the crossbred animals are never incorporated into the purebred gene pool (by not being permitted into the registry). There are many expamples (in other species, and in history, with the horse) where the demand for the use of a pure breed in outcrossing actually strengthened the support to safeguard the purity of that breed, as the breed would not be very prepotent if it was not pure. The best example I can give is the bluefaced leicester sheep, which exists soley to produce crosses on hill breeds in the U.K. If there was not demand for this breed in crossing, it would not even exist. Yet the breed does exist and thrives soley for its use as a crossing sire, and for that purpose its purity is guarded just as much as the Fjord breed). So there is an example where there are vast numbers of crossbred offspring produced, yet the purebred is kept pure and is viable as a breed. In the horse world, there have been breeds which, due to their demand for grading up or outcrossing, were greatly strengthened and kept pure just for that purpose. This is the kind of crossbreeding I am referring to as not harmful. >After all, >any foal resulting from a Fjord bred to a non-Fjord is *part* Fjord, and >therefore is NOT PURE. Do you expect people to just ignore those horses' >existence because their Fjord parent hasn't been changed? What are you suggesting? I guess I don't understand the question. The crossbred Fjord is not of interest to the purebreeder in his breeding program. It is an end product produced presumedly for a reason to be used for a certain purpose (work or pleasure). I cannot guess all the reasons why people might produce crossbreds, some of it to be sure may be misguided and should be discouraged. But I guess the needle that has been sticking me in the side here, is that there may be a very good reason someone might wish to make a Fjord outcross, and who am I/you/anyone to condemn them so long as their stock stay out of the purebred gene pool? Not too long ago, when horses were much more comonly used for work, nearly every farm work horse was infact a crossbred referred to as a 'farm chunk'. These horses fed and developed America. Purebred draft breeds flourished supplying genetics to make these crosses and the purity of those draft breeds was not lost by this use. It was not until later, when the draft breeds were no longer used for crossing, but instead were used as 'purebreds' in show hitches that they changed dramatically. Just one example that it is the use of the horse that poses the greatest power in shaping the breed. Times are changing and today most of us do not depend upon our horses for work, and the availability of purebreds have increased But there are still people who use horses for work (we do) and will have specific needs. It -might- be that a Fjord cross would give them that blend they are looking for. Personally, I have found the purebred Fjord to suit me perfectly and have no desire to change it, but I choose not to speak for other people. > Secondly, if anyone doesn't understand the history of horse breeding >as it's relevant to Fjords, it's you. The breed is over four thousand years >old. Sorry for being blunt, but who are you to come waltzing in saying it's >oka
trail horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol wrote: "dumbing down the breed to turn out trail horses would not be fulfilling the obligation we have of breeding for versatility, strength, and the many other unique qualities of the breed." Carol, Some of the trail riding I have done required significant stamina and strength to haul my weight over 20 miles at high altitudes, for 10 days in a row, required athleticism to safely scramble over 20 some odd belly high logs in a day, required trainability to collect for safe, controlled down hill descents down steep and slippery slopes, required extension to catch up on the flat spots so we get back to camp before dark, required sensibility to remain calm when a pack slipped sideways, requires even more sensibility when you unexpectedly meet a roaring motorcycle around a curve in the trail, requires excellent conformation to do all of this without swelling or lameness in the legs, and needs even better conformation to do all of this at a comfortable walk/jog so that I am not lame at the end of the day. There is no room for a dumb horse on the trail, not when you are riding in more remote areas, miles from any help, and possibly in weather that can be life threatening if you are thrown and disabled. And about versatality, yes we expect that same horse to be able to move the cows, pull 700 lb bales of hay, be a safe mount for my kids, and take the family on a sunday drive. I am not alone, I am just amazed at how many people just in our neighborhood alone, who have hauled their horses out to all the same places we have to ride the trails. This is trail riding and it seems to be a growing sport. We have two popular trail riding destinations near by, and there can easily be 100 people camping there on a weekend. Janet W McNally
picking out feet/shoes
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I did not see the original article that started this discussion, but just want to point out that one of the very most important reasons that you pick out feet, is to inspect the hoof for any problems. If you are riding/driving or working the horse, you want to be sure they did not wedge a peice of gravel, or other object into a crevice where it can do some harm. Road gravel is crushed and has sharp edges that can penetrate into a hoof, not rounded like most 'naturally' formed gravel. When we used horses only for occaisional trail riding, we always kept them barefoot, and used easyboots when we rode on rocky terrain (such as the black hills and their mountains of abrasive granite!). Easy boots do require a fair amount of time to put on, something that was acceptable for a short spell of time, but if we rode more frequently shoes would have been welcomed. I only had problems with the easy boots on one pony, who had shallow heels, but the Fjord breed seems to have very deep heels so that is not likely a problem. Thus far for farm chores, I have not needed shoes to protect the feet, but we have clay soils which are soft on the feet. However, I have wondered if we should consider shoes with borium for traction on ice, any experience with that? Janet
crossbreeding and attitudes
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jamie wrote: "In my opinion people that do not understand why some of us feel so strongly about our breed (and not messing with it genetically or otherwise) are exactly the kind of people that should not get a Fjord." Jamie, I'm not sure if I should laugh, or cry. I -do- understand and applaud that Fjord breeders are passionate about preserving the purity of their breed. And as a newcomer to the breed, attracted to the Fjord because of the consistancy and attributes the breed can offer me as a farm work horse (and that many other drafty type breeds have ruined), I too desire to see the integrety of the Fjord breed guarded rigorously, intend to do the same, and am very pleased to see so much discussion and support to this end. However, on this matter of crossbreeding, (specifically -outcrossing-), what I can see very clearly, is that at least the vocal majority on this list, have very little understanding of the history of horse breeding, the role of purebreeding and crossbreeding, and therefore have a genuine fear of those things that are not well understood. I am going to give up on trying to explain why the mere use of a stallion to make an outcross does not polute the purebreed. and I -do- appreciate the concerns some have about potential confusion of purebreds vs crossbreds, although I do ponder why this does not seem to be an issue in any other breed. I am puzzled too that the most logical rationale to ban crossbreeding, that is to keep numbers of fjord-like horses in check to protect the value of the purebreds, so that Fjord breeders can recieve respectable prices for their product (and continue to be able to afford to carry out their breeding program), is not top on the list, as it should be. So Jamie, I am not fit to be a Fjord owner because I have rather extensive experience and education with purebreeding and crossbreeding in several species, and therefore have trouble understanding why Fjord breeders are uniquely irrational and fearful that outcrossing will somehow ruin the breed? And back to the original reason why I got involved in this discussion, it is this attitude, exactly the attitude shown here, that is what -really- bothered me. So I am less worthy as a Fjord owner, because my background and experience gives me a different point of view on this subject? Janet W McNally
fjord gaits
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There have been a few references to Fjord gaits here recently, the inference being that Fjord's have rough gaits. I confess I have not ridden many Fjords, but those that I have ridden had very acceptable gaits (albeit the canter is not one of their favorite), and my mare has a slow jog that is much easier on my arthritic back than any of the 3 Tennessee Walking horses I have owned! Also just want to point out that the nice slow walk that a Fjord can do, is very important to those of us who do farm work with a Fjord, and have to walk along beside over rough ground or through deep snow. You do not want a fast walking horse for this purpose. Janet W McNally
"free" meeting
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> regarding the Annual meeting it was said"As of today... I only have ONE MEMBER that has signed up to attend. The meeting is FREE." well, you mean it is free to anyone who has $300-500 in air fare, $100 in hotel, and $100 in food, or a total of $700 to burn.. Janet
Marketing 101
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In the earlier discussion on crossbreeding I tried to point out that a far greater danger to breed integrety is from within, when fads and fashion of the day dictate a new use different from what the breed was designed for, thus changing the breed. The current discussion hits much closer to what I see as the greatest threat to the integrety of a breed. Form follows function, and if you change what the animals does, the shape and nature of the animal will change. So we have to approach breeding for a market with great care. Marketing serves the breed well when you look at the natural attributes the Fjord has to offer, and promote those attributes as to how they fit people today (the aging female rider is a good example of this). But marketing will destroy the breed if we start chasing after the latest fads and start shaping the breed to suit that market. Although doing the latter will get horses sold, do not forget that fads and fashion are temporary and moving targets and do not make a sound breeding program and *are* the primary cause of the destruction of many breeds of many species. Not everything about todays mass marketing provides a desireable model to follow think about what they are selling... cheap, disposable products that can be changed to meet consumer demand in a heart beat. Is that what we want the Fjord horse to be? Janet W McNally
Fjord escort
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> When you live on a farm, you find yourself doing things that are not always planned... and always something comes up on a holiday. Last night, new year's eve, I found myself retrieving a valuable breeding ram from a distant pasture, in the dark, one hour before midnight. My son had 'forgotten' to tell me, he had seen the ram behaving 'oddly' earlier in the day, that the ram seemed blind, and I should check it out. (he suddenly remembered this at 10 pm!). This ram had recently been treated for a brain injury from fighting with other rams, so he was probably in serious trouble. the ram was 1/4 mile from the barn, and weighs 250 lbs. He appeared to have one horrible headache, so he was pretty docile, but none the less, was not going to make it easy, I had to push him the whole way. Part of the trek was through the horse pasture. As we pushed our way accross the pasture, My 3 Fjords surrounded us, and placed their muzzles ever so softly on the ram. One on each side, and the third switched from leading to following throughout the trip. When in the rear, she placed her muzzle on his rump. One horse usually had a muzzle on his head. They walked along with us like this through the whole trip accross the pasture. I was happy for the company in what was (for me) a pretty grueling task, and found humor thinking about the 'Fjord escort' we were getting. At the gate I had to pry those inquisitive muzzles off the ram and inform them they were not coming with us to the barn. It would have been very easy to chalk this escort up to just plain curiosity, and until this morning, that is all I thought it was. But today I had to bring a healthy ram back through the pasture because obviously the ram with the big headache was not going to do much breeding for a while. As I passed through the pasture, driving the fresh ram ahead of me, the Fjords all watched, but none bothered to come check him out. I wonder now if they sensed that the first ram was ill and in need of help? Maybe they could smell something different about him? Or did they realize he could not see? The ram btw, is doing much better today. I put him back on his Rx of antibiotics and anti inflamitories. He regained his vision and his appetite. Janet W McNally
fjord temperment
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Marsha wrote: >Hmmm, food for thought. Suppose it IS true that the Fjord temperament >isn't "dominant" in the crosses. That might argue that the Fjord >temperament is on a recessive gene--- If what others have said is true, that the fjord crossbreds always take on the 'other' breeds temperment, then that is exactly what I was thinking, that fjord temperment was comprised of recessive genes. Marsha continued... >which means that having a Fjord >with a good temperament requires that BOTH parents have good >temperaments. Well, almost but not quite correct. If the fjord temperment was due to recessive genes, then producing a foal with a good temperment will require that both parents have the recessive genes, but recessives being the 'hidden' genes that they are, one or both parents can actually have 'bad' temperments, yet still carry one copy of the 'good' temperment recessive. This of course is assuming a lot, probably temperment is a lot more complicated that this... probably requiring a multitude of genes. >So, maybe temperament ought to be a bigger chunk of >what gets Evaluated? That depends upon how important temperment is in defining the Fjord breed. Janet
affect of crossbred on purebred
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Deb asked: >If a Fjord stallion was bred to another breed that Fjord stallion doesn't >upset the applecart as far as "pure-bred" Fjords are concerned. >However is a Fjord mare is bred to another breed she is now violated, so to >speak, and has ruined her "pure-bred" line? Hi Deb, Breeding a purebred mare or purebred stallion to another breed, will produce a crossbred from that mating, but has no impact on the future offspring what so ever. Each pregnancy is a separate event, and genetically has no bearing on the future foals. So a mare can produce a crossbred foal one year, and as long as she is bred back to a purebred stallion the next year, her offspring will be as purebred as any other. The reason stallions are favored in outcrossing programs is because generally, they are underemployed, and using them thus does not detract from the number of purebred foals produced which is important with a breed that has limited numbers. OTOH you would not wish to use your best purebred mares (of a rare breed) to produce crossbred offspring, they should be busy raising purebred foals. The only way crossbreeding presents a threat to the purity of the Fjord horse breed, is if someone tries to register a crossbred foal as a purebred. It is not the existance of the crossbred that is the threat, it is the potential someone might try to decieve another person, and pass the crossbred off as a purebred. That can happen no matter what the rules are. Only DNA can tell the truth. Janet W McNally
re: the economy and horse sales
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thankyou Pamela and Mike for such worthy ideas. sure hope people consider them. Janet
fjord reputation
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> someone wrote: >He responded that he found them to be stubborn, > unpredictable and prone to being run-aways. This opinion he > admitted, had been developed from his experience with Finn's crosses > rather than real Fjords. Before I bought my fjords, I had 3 different farriers, and two other people try to talk me out of the idea. I was told they were stubborn, hard mouthed, and were bad with their feet. They also all agreed that Fjords were wonderfully people oriented horses, just a pain to handle. One local trainer turned down the prospects of training a Fjord for us. I heard about the team that ran away at the annual draft horse event... a pair of fjords. With over 75 other breed teams in attendance, that sure does not help that the only Fjord team ran off, especially when the story endures from one year to the next.These people were speaking of purebred Fjords, not crossbreds. I have yet to know about a crossbred actually, other than what I've read about on this list. Now that I've been Fjord shopping, I found that a lot of fjords have been trained once upon a time, then turned out to pasture for years. While the generous nature of a fjord will let an experienced person get away with this, the novice horse owner might be decieved about the training needs of those big quiet Fjords. I have also found though, that the Fjord -is- different with its personal space (i.e. will crawl into your lap for a hug), and require different methods than my light horses did. They also do not seem to feel pain like other breeds, and rightly so, as you would not want a farm work horse to be sensitive about things banging or dangling around them. That is how you avoid a wreck when they step over the traces, or something comes undone. What would have sent my TWH's into orbit is scarcely noted by my Fjords, and I find myself changing how I work around them. Primarily, I constantly remind them to stay out of my space. Something I never had to think about with a TWH. I'm still learning. I've concluded that the reason those 5 people had a negative experience was because they were working with scarcely or un trained Fjords and did not recognize how green they were, perhaps because they were so uncommonly quiet and freindly. Janet W McNally
the economy and horse sales
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike May wrote: > When I read this I wondered if it was really true since I had not really > noticed fewer transfers coming through my office. Hi Mike, you may recall I had queried you privately about this a while ago. Those numbers appear to be good news, however I regard them with cautious optimism as they may not reflect what is happening right now, especially in the midwest/west this winter. All I can say is that accross the board the horse market is on its knees in the Midwest/west with good registered halter trained weanlings in other popular breeds that would have sold for $1000 last year are now selling for $100..., and well trained mature horses available at $300-$500 that would have brought over 2-3K last year. Hay is up to $6 for a square bale, normally only $1 here. And we were not even in a drought, this is just the demand created by all the regions that were dry. A lot of the Fjords I queried about for sale last year, are still for sale. Perhaps the relatively small population of Fjords compared to other breeds is helping maintain sales at normal levels, but ultimately these forces are going to be felt by some people, even some Fjord owners. So what are the options for a horse owner with more horses than they can afford, and no sales? Janet
crossbreeding-short
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >From the subsequent discussion I can tell that it is difficult to distinguish >the difference between crossbreeding for the purpose of bringing new genes into the fjord gene pool (something I was definitely --not-- advocating) and outcrossing with Fjords, that is using the Fjord to improve someones grades or create useful hybrids for a purpose. The purpose of my rants, was only to point out that outcrossing (i.e. using a purebreed to add certain qualities to a grade, or creating a hybrid), is a very old proven practice with merit and should not be spoken of as if it was a dirty word. Outcrossing does not affect the pure breeds. I tried to set forth in the lengthly argument, why someone would want to outcross... one example might be used by a person who uses work horses for a living ... to size down the modern draft to a more practical size. A purebred Fjord might be too small, a percheron too large, a hybrid just right. This is just hypothetical. If the hybrid is a useful cross, it will be very important that the Fjord breed retain its purebred qualities, and the Percheron retain its purebred qualities so that the hybrids remain a predictable product. So use of a breed for outcrossing like this usually strengthens the desire to keep the parent breeds pure and has been important to keeping many pure breeds pure. Currently it is not unusual for work horse people use quarter horses to size down their drafts. Draft blood has not been creeping into the QH breed, nor has QH been creeping into the draft breeds. It is a dead end cross, bred for work, not breeding. I would think that officially recognizing the crosses is not a good thing for the Fjord breed. As doing so may encourage cross breeding. I never said we should -encourage- crossbreeding, only stated that..."who am I to second guess what someone else's needs are". We do live in a free country do we not? Janet
why slaughter horses are stunned-caution graphic
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lynda asked > It > is highly doubtful a change in humanely putting an animal down versus > stunning before dissecting will happen, for whatever reason, the animal > cannot be dead at this point, but should be unconscious. I still do not as > of yet understand WHY, but it has something to do with the meat quality and > human consumption. Lynda, When any animal is slaughtered, it is necessary to be sure the blood is let out. Why, I do not recall, partly could be a long tradition passed on from judean culture, but today is believed to be important to meat quality and is widely practiced through out the world and accross cultures. The heart needs to keep beating to properly 'bleed' an animal. In modern times, stunning was added as a way to humanely render the animal unconcious before it was bled. Janet
cross breeding and then there is crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie wrote: > it seems to me that ordinary common sense >should dictate preserving original stock! Ruthie, I can tell that you have trouble viewing crossbreeding as for any other purpose other than putting another breed into the Fjord gene pool. I agree whole heartedly this is absolutely a destructive use of crossbreeding, and also agree whole heartedly about the value of preserving the original stock (although I do not like the term 'preserve' as we must not forget that the original stock was under continual selection and was never a static thing). You seem to have trouble understanding that many if not most purebreds have been created through milenia for the purpose of making a cross with the common less improved stock. It was the practice of crossing and upgrading that provided the demand for the purebreds and -that demanded- the purebreds be pure and prepotent. What I was trying to show in my prior post is that crossbreeding to achieve an end product to perform a job has in fact been an important force in obtaining a secure place for many purebred animals. This kind of use of crossbreeding does not destroy pure breeds, but often strengthens them by creating demand for a predictable genetic resource. Ruthie also wrote: >Subject matter has digressed from Fjords onto vegetables, grains, and what have you, >but along that same vein I will say that because of unchecked rampant >crossbreeding down through time (for bigger, more color, better keeping, more >profit, etc.) that many original strains have been LOST, eg: apples, >potatoes,etc. Ruthie, To optimize crossbreeding, it is crucial that the purebred populations be maintained as destinct purebreds, the more destinct the better (and the greater the hybrid vigor). When we see the purebred replaced entirely by the hybrid, what has happened is that evidently the purebred breeders failed to keep up with the needs for their product, or the needs changed, and the hybrid turned out to be the best adapted source of genetic material. This happens when purebred populations become too small and too narrow and no longer fulfil their intended purpose. This is not the fault of crossbreeding, but is due to short sightedness of the purebred breeders. I see this in progress right now with some of the livestock guard dog breeds, breeders are excersizing such severe control over who breeds puppies, that they are breeding themselves into a very tight corner of genetic obliviation (and all geneticist I have spoken to absolutely agree with me on that). I guess what scares me about some of the talk on this list, is that I sometimes see the same attitude among some Fjord breeders. Sometimes too much control (and the subsequent narrowing of the gene pool) can cause demise of the breed. Ruthie states: Fjords and Arabians, both purebreds, have outstanding LONGEVITY so much for "hybrid vigor." Ruthie, your statement only shows that the fjord and arabian were developed in tough climates that shaped their ability to withstand the rigors of life. If you crossed the fjord and arab, you would invariably have an even longer lived animal due to hybrid vigor. that is what hybrid vigor is about. I AM NOT ADVOCATING CROSSING, just making a point. Ruthie wrote: >Crossbreeding is after all EXPERIMENTATION, actually, Ruthie, Crossbreeding is a highly developed science that has been practiced to my knowlege through out history. There are many reearch stations in the US and throughout the world who's sole aim is to research purebreeds and how to most effectively cross them. The Clay Center Nebraska Meat Animal Research Center has over 10,000 sheep just for this purpose, and that is just sheep, they also research other species as well. Yes some of the new crosses are experiments, and without experiments we do not make progress with new ideas, but many of the methods and crosses used are actually centuries old. Ruthie wrote: >I believe the Fjord horse to be UNIQUE and precious enough to carefully >safeguard its future genetic virtue and I appreciate the efforts made toward >this end by the NFHR. >As Mike said, (something like) you can't improve perfection. I absolutely agree, and the best place to start safeguarding the future of the Fjord breed is to have a better understanding of what circumstances truly represent a threat, and which ones do not. Crossbreeding with a fjord stallion, to make a 16 hand and more user freindly breed for a farmer is -not- a threat to the fjord breed and could actually foster development of the breed by creating demand for fjords of oustanding fjord character by people who actually use them for work. The current NFHR policy has stifled this constructive use of crossbreeding. OTOH, the kind of crossbreeding that will destroy the breed is illicit use of other breeds to make the fjord fit their
cross breeding and then there is crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie wrote: > it seems to me that ordinary common sense >should dictate preserving original stock! Ruthie, I can tell that you have trouble viewing crossbreeding as for any other purpose other than putting another breed into the Fjord gene pool. I agree whole heartedly this is absolutely a destructive use of crossbreeding, and also agree whole heartedly about the value of preserving the original stock (although I do not like the term 'preserve' as we must not forget that the original stock was under continual selection and was never a static thing). You seem to have trouble understanding that many if not most purebreds have been created through milenia for the purpose of making a cross with the common less improved stock. It was the practice of crossing and upgrading that provided the demand for the purebreds and -that demanded- the purebreds be pure and prepotent. What I was trying to show in my prior post is that crossbreeding to achieve an end product to perform a job has in fact been an important force in obtaining a secure place for many purebred animals. This kind of use of crossbreeding does not destroy pure breeds, but often strengthens them by creating demand for a predictable genetic resource. Ruthie also wrote: >Subject matter has digressed from Fjords onto vegetables, grains, and what have you, >but along that same vein I will say that because of unchecked rampant >crossbreeding down through time (for bigger, more color, better keeping, more >profit, etc.) that many original strains have been LOST, eg: apples, >potatoes,etc. Ruthie, To optimize crossbreeding, it is crucial that the purebred populations be maintained as destinct purebreds, the more destinct the better (and the greater the hybrid vigor). When we see the purebred replaced entirely by the hybrid, what has happened is that evidently the purebred breeders failed to keep up with the needs for their product, or the needs changed, and the hybrid turned out to be the best adapted source of genetic material. This happens when purebred populations become too small and too narrow and no longer fulfil their intended purpose. This is not the fault of crossbreeding, but is due to short sightedness of the purebred breeders. I see this in progress right now with some of the livestock guard dog breeds, breeders are excersizing such severe control over who breeds puppies, that they are breeding themselves into a very tight corner of genetic obliviation (and all geneticist I have spoken to absolutely agree with me on that). I guess what scares me about some of the talk on this list, is that I sometimes see the same attitude among some Fjord breeders. Sometimes too much control (and the subsequent narrowing of the gene pool) can cause demise of the breed. Ruthie states: Fjords and Arabians, both purebreds, have outstanding LONGEVITY so much for "hybrid vigor." Ruthie, your statement only shows that the fjord and arabian were developed in tough climates that shaped their ability to withstand the rigors of life. If you crossed the fjord and arab, you would invariably have an even longer lived animal due to hybrid vigor. that is what hybrid vigor is about. I AM NOT ADVOCATING CROSSING, just making a point. Ruthie wrote: >Crossbreeding is after all EXPERIMENTATION, actually, Ruthie, Crossbreeding is a highly developed science that has been practiced to my knowlege through out history. There are many reearch stations in the US and throughout the world who's sole aim is to research purebreeds and how to most effectively cross them. The Clay Center Nebraska Meat Animal Research Center has over 10,000 sheep just for this purpose, and that is just sheep, they also research other species as well. Yes some of the new crosses are experiments, and without experiments we do not make progress with new ideas, but many of the methods and crosses used are actually centuries old. Ruthie wrote: >I believe the Fjord horse to be UNIQUE and precious enough to carefully >safeguard its future genetic virtue and I appreciate the efforts made toward >this end by the NFHR. >As Mike said, (something like) you can't improve perfection. I absolutely agree, and the best place to start safeguarding the future of the Fjord breed is to have a better understanding of what circumstances truly represent a threat, and which ones do not. Crossbreeding with a fjord stallion, to make a 16 hand and more user freindly breed for a farmer is -not- a threat to the fjord breed and could actually foster development of the breed by creating demand for fjords of oustanding fjord character by people who actually use them for work. The current NFHR policy has stifled this constructive use of crossbreeding. OTOH, the kind of crossbreeding that will destroy the breed is illicit use of other breeds to make the fjord fit their
Fjords going to slaughter
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lynda wrote: >Regardless of personal >opinion concerning slaughter, the fact remains Fjords ARE being sent to >slaughter. WHY? This is what I, and many others, would like to find out. Lynda, no surprise to me. For those who are insulated from what is happening out there, the economy has taken a very bad turn over the past year, and feed prices in most parts of the country are at a historical high. For those living a little closer to the 'edge' this means that a) they can no longer feed their livestock and b) no one is buying horses because of the high price of feed -and- their lowered income. Thus the horse market has crashed and burned and the only buyers out there are meat buyers. I have been Fjord shopping over the past 18 months, and I can tell you that most of the horses I have looked at are still for sale. If any of those owners can no longer support the number of animals they have, and no one is buying, then what can they do? Janet
the effective approach
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brian Jensen wrote: >Western >Canada has suffered a serious drought over the past few years---more >severe than the 30, so drought and recession. Possibly an offer to be >proactive and supportive would be better than guidelines or principles >which simply punish folks who are caught between a rock and a hard >place. Thankyou Brian!!! You have put into words what has been bothering me about the tone on this list. Who are we to be so punitive and judgemental when perhaps it is a helping hand that is really needed? I will bet that the vast majority of people who have sent a Fjord horse to auction did so with a tear in their eye, but felt they had exhausted all their options. Perhaps they had already tried finding a buyer for months or even the past year. The feed situation in most of NA has caught many people unprepared, compounded by the poor economy which has almost put a halt to sales. Not only will some more Fjords wind up in meat auctions, but I guarantee you that the number of horse 'abuse' cases of starving horses is going to be unprecedented this year. Our energies would be so much more effective if horse owners became aware far and wide that there is a (non judgemental) place to turn where their horses can find a safe haven should they find themselves unable to cope with these forces beyond their control. I have seen this done with some dog breeds and it has been amazingly effective at keeping those breeds out of the humane shelters and rehoming the dogs into suitable homes. Janet
more on crossbreeding-very long
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Rest assured I understand how crossbreeding can cause a great deal of damage. But it is not the mere fact purebreds are crossed that does the damage, it is what breeders and registries do with the crosses that can become harmful. I have been breeding purebred sheep for over 30 years. I have watched my chosen breed be completely destroyed by illicit crossbreeding. When illicit crossbreeding became fashionable, there were no safeguards such as DNA typing or microchipping available, and breeders crossed with similar looking (but yet different) breeds and quietly registered them as purebreds. Their purpose was to make the sheep taller so that they would compete in the show ring with taller breeds, but in the process lost all the traits the breed had been known for. Many unsuspecting buyers purchased 'purebred' sheep that did not perform like the purebreds. It was not the commercial sheep producers that wanted to use crossbreds in their flocks to perform a task that undid the breed, it was the dishonest purebred breeders who were looking for a quick win in the show ring that destroyed the breed. Here we have two scenarios of crossbreeding, one that supported the breed and made it flourish (crossing by the commercial lamb producers) and one that ultimately destroyed the breed (registering crossbreds as purebreds). A little over 10 years ago, I saw my chosen breed of sheep was doomed here in the U.S. as it could no longer perform the job it was originally cherished for due to registering the illicit crossbreeding, and the few remaining true purebred flocks were dangerously inbred. So I set out to obtain new genetics outside of the U.S.. Unable to import my preferred breed due to health regulations, I had to choose instead to recreate a similar genetic package by crossing my existing flock (of 200 ewes) with similar breeds imported from europe. Since importing an entire purebred flock would have cost me millions with no hope of recovering that in my lifetime, I had to settle on bringing in new rams and using them on my existing ewes. I now have a flock that can produce more predictably, and can outperform any of the purebred sheep of my old breed here in the US. My flock is no longer registered, as I they are now 'only grades', but my openly hybrid sheep command about 3X the price of the old purebreds because they do the job better. Was it my decision to import and outcross that ruined the old breed? or was it the greedy deceptive practices of the other breeders who registered crossbreds as purebreds that ruined the breed??? I also raise Border Collies and Livestock guarding dogs. I would never, ever, crossbreed my Border Collies, The BC breed does exactly what I want, and no other breed can improve upon that. However, I have been in New Zealand, where they needed a much farther ranging dog, and also needed a barking dog (BC's are quiet) due to the huge mobs of sheep they need to work. So BC's were crossed with other breeds to achieve what they needed. The result is a highly effective dog for huge mobs of sheep. Where would the NZ sheep producers be if all BC breed associations banned crossbreeding? I depend upon my livestock guard dogs to stay with and guard my sheep without harming them. How many dog breeds can you raise with sheep and trust them? not many, only a specially bred dog can do this job. Obviously I would not want to outcross my guarding dogs with other non sheep guarding breeds. However, I do breed within a specially selected circle of breeds (Maremma, Tatra, Kuvasz, Anatolian) and these hybrids are highly succesful. Our hybrid puppies sell for as much as the purebreds. why crossbreed the guard dogs? Because research (Hampshire College, Amherst Mass) showed that the hybrids expressed all of the desired traits (trustworthy, attentive, protective) better, and more reliably than the purebreds. They also lived longer. The reason? because by crossing two distantly related breeds, we paired up unrelated genes and created dogs that express a larger array of the desired traits than the purebreds which had much narrower gene pools (too narrow actually). btw, purebred dog breeders (most who do not own sheep and do not use them for work) are horrified by my hybrid program yet the people who depend upon these dogs to keep their flocks safe love them. For those in the rescue business, none of my hybrids have needed rescuing, because they performed their jobs so well that they are nearly all still on the job. Incidently, I have noted that the dog breeders who are the most controlling about their puppies (i.e. very strict spay and neuter contracts) have the least number of dogs actually out on farms working, and proving that they can work. Interesting isn't it? But the key in all these scenarios, is that the cro
crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In response to a coment that crossbreds are often healthier and take the best from both parents Ruthie wrote: >HOW MANY TIMES have I heard this IMPOSSIBLE to substantiate claim recycled?! >I say it's a total falsehood and the odds of "taking the best of both >parents" are no better than that with purebreds. Ruthie, Impossible to substantiate? The volumes of research on sheep, cows, pigs, chickens, corn, soybeans, dogs, and even mice and tribolium flour beetles that substantiate that hybrid animals are more adapted, resist disease better, perform better, and live longer would make a tower so tall you could not see the top. I must admit, I never came across such research on horses, but I would not doubt if one digs deep enough that back in the days when horses were the mainstay for farming, that someone researched crosses vs purebreds. But perhaps what speaks loudest is that the bulk of what pulled the plows and combines were grade farm 'chunk' horses and mules. There are a few exceptions... the Holstein dairy cow was unparalled, no cross or any other purebred was able to outperform the purebred Holstein in North America. But this is a rare exception. It is generally accepted that crossbred sheep and cattle produce 20% more lamb or beef than purebreds. This increased production is the sum total of being better adapted, healthier, and is what is referred to as 'hybrid vigor'. Janet W McNally
crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lynda wrote: > Maybe you misunderstood my request. This has nothing to do with limited gene > pool Lynda, the minute you suggest not accepting purebred Fjord horses from the CFHA because their policies are not identical to the NFHR you are talking about limiting the gene pool. and if we start with the CFHA, where does it end? Janet
crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> why would someone crossbreed with a fjord? The best reason I could see doing this is if you already own another draft breed, and want to size it down. The draft breeds today are such huge giants they are not really practical using horses imo. The half breds would still be large horses but not the giants that todays percherons and many belgians are. So someone wanting something bigger than a Fjord, but smaller than a 18 hand draft might want to crossbreed. The policy of the NFHR assures that stallions in other breeds get the business instead of Fjord stallion owners. Personally I felt the Fjord was 'just the right size' and 'just the right temperment' so I purchased purebreds and have no motive to produce crossbreds. Nonetheless, I think there is a lot of hyper phobia about crossbreeding on this list. The DNA and microchiping policies of the NFHR safeguard the Fjord breed from the possiblity of non Fjord breeds from creeping into the gene pool. It has been my observation that much of the phobia expressed here about crossbreeding mirrors similiar unfounded discussion in dog circles. The people most threatened by the concept either do not understand genetics completely (think crossbreeding produces monsters or somehow changes the purebred parent), or are worried their breeding stock will be devalued by cheaper crossbreds. The latter fear is more reasonable, but probably unnecessary for the Fjord breed, as the purebred Fjord offers such unique features in the horse world, that no crossbred is likely to ever provide significant competition. Janet W McNally
crossbreeding and registries
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I hope I am making some sense here in what I am trying to say. I would think the only way we in the US can make it clear to the CFHA that we do NOT condone crossbreeding or inbreeding is by not allowing ANY of their Fjords, regardless if they comply or not, to be registered into the NFHR until they change their polices. Lynda C. Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice President, Norwegian Fjord Representative Lynda, what a great way to shoot ourselves in the foot. One of the greatest dangers to any minor breed is a limited gene pool, why would the NFHR want to further limit the gene pool over something as simple as policy? If there are good purebred horses in the CFHA the NFHR would do far more harm to the fjord breed to exclude them. With the DNA and microchipping policies in the NFHR, you are very safe from any threat some crossbreds can produce. Janet W McNally
clicker training
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks to Jean and Marsha for the explanation as to how clicker training works. It appears the key is breaking down training into small parts and a destinctive sound that signals a reward. I was fortunate to have learned from someone who got me in the habit of only using 'good boy' only as a destinctive signal when the horse performed correctly, and also, I am not usually a very verbal person around my animals, every thing I say is for a purpose. So hence my confusion why a clicker would be useful. I have witnessed where the clicker training concept was very helpful to a beginner llama owner. I shear a few hundred llamas every spring. Llamas think very much in the same way a horse does, and most methods that work well with horses work very well with llamas. However, many people that own llamas, do not realize that llamas have all the same herd related behaviors as horses, and should be taken just as seriously. I am often better off to shear completely 'wild' llamas that are never handled, than to shear for an owner who's llamas have learned to walk all over them, and this lady's llamas had learned exactly that, every one was a big fight. She attended every clinic offered on training with no results, and finally one day took in a workshop on clicker training. That year her animals were --much-- easier to work with. The only snaffu, she'd keep forgetting where she put her clicker, and we spent a lot of time running for it. My surmise is that the workshop must have broken down the training method into information that was easy to use and remember, so it is not that the method is new, but the way of teaching the human was very succesful. Also in her case, she was a very talkative person around her animals, so I can see how the clicker provided that unique sound that could be destinguished from all the babble. Janet
clicker training
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The interest in clicker training has always baffled me, because I never could see how it was 'something new'. It appears to be no different than good old fashioned verbal reward "good boy" followed by the pat on the neck, treat, or deserved rest from a strenuous activity used by horsepeople through out history. With time your horse will realize that "gd boy" means he did what you wanted. My voice is infinitely handier than any other device, leaves my hands free, and I do not have to buy a clicker, or books and tapes to use it. Janet
slaughter houses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'm going not only by what Lynda said, but by the huge article I read in the > Oregonian last summer. People who worked at the slaughter houses were also > complaining. Speeding up the "assembly lines" HAS caused botching. No doubt > about it. And there is a move to get them back to a slower speed, making it > more humane. I wish I had the article to send you, but that's not the type > of article that I save! > Pamela, I have no problem believing there are cases where the line is moving too fast, creating dangerous situations for workers, and I would believe that on occaision, there might be an improperly stunned animal, but having worked in a turkey plant myself (boxing frozen turkeys), I can tell you that if someone up the line did not do their job properly and endangered the workers down the line, there would be an uproar. I do believe that workers would make claims that appeal to emotions to get attention to their plight, as generally, the public is more sympathetic about inhumane treatment of animals than they are to inhumane working conditions for people. Back to my original point, so this information about slaughter plant cruelty was not witnessed first hand? It is amazing how a rumor from one plant can spread and generalized to be the status quo for all slaughter plants. Be careful of what you read, there is a lot of biased press out there, some of it with deep hidden agendas. Janet
Slaughter houses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > When workers open the cows' skin and grab their legs, the cows try to kick us > but we've already spread their legs open. And they're looking at us and > they're sticking out their tongues. They make a "rr" noise. It's a > look like, "Don't do this to me" You know, "You're cutting me alive!" > They blink their eyes and they stare up at us like, "Help me!" > While I think it is wonderful that there are people so dedicated to the Fjord breed that they will go through such effort to save a few horses, I do think Lynda's effort to pull at everyones emotions by painting the slaughter business as a filthy, inhumane practice has gone too far. While I have never been in a horse slaughter facility, I have been in a fair number of lamb and a few cattle slaughter facilities in 3 different countries and have yet to ***EVER*** see an animal that was still concious after it was stunned.Heart still beating, yes, but able to know it is being hung upside down, or look at you and blink its eyes, no. I wonder how many of you, Lynda including, have witnessed this first hand to be able to speak with athority? Or are you just trusting the word of people who have an agenda (to turn everyone against farming or into vegetarians)? In every facility I have toured, animals were led into the stunning area calmly. A slaughter plant would do this for reasons beyond the animal's own comfort, as calm animals move faster than frightened, balky animals. Also, fear and stress affect eating quality. Animals do not necessarily balk at the smell of blood like we think they would. for one, they are not educated as to what that smell means, so do not associate the smell of blood with fear. Also the sanitation of the plants I have toured (except for one) was emaculate. while I am sure there are exceptions, (and those exceptions should be dealt with), I think it is wrong to paint the entire industry with one brush, and to do so with such inacurate emotional pictures. Personally, I prefer to provide a fitting resting place here at home for my animals that provide me service, such as my dogs and my horses, and I grow my own sheep and cattle for our table. but that preference of mine does not give me or anyone licence to slander another industry with mis information. Janet W McNally
cattle feed bad for horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The scenario where the horse feed was mixed right after the cattle feed was a 'it depends' kind of situation. Jessica is 100% correct that Rumensin, a common additive to the feed for growing cattle, is very toxic to horses. If rumensin was used in the previous batch, sufficient feed might be left in the 'boot' of the mixer to contaminate the next batch and cause problems for horses. For this reason, feed mills usually run similar types of feed together, -or- they run some corn or bean meal through to clean it out between batches. Dairy cattle feed has to be free of most additives, because antibiotics, or rumensin will be detected in the milk, and then the whole tank of milk will be thrown away. So if the previous batch of cattle feed was for lactating dairy cows, there would not be any toxic residues left in the mixer. Also not every beef, pork, or lamb producer uses antibiotics or additives for their growing animals (we do not). So whether or not she should be angry with the mill depends upon wether or not the previous batch had any additives in it. It could be that the feed mill knew that it did not, or that they ran some meal through the mixer to clean it out, in which case they were OK to be mixing the horse feed. Janet
tucker saddles
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I recall someone mentioned tucker saddles here before. Does the 'wide' tree work on fjord horses? I noticed that it is not quite as wide as the full quarter horse bars on a circle Y, so wonder if they are wide enough? thanks Janet
tank heaters
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> after reading all those funny stories about fjords and floating tank heaters, I have to recommend the one we use, its a heater that screws in to the bottom of a rubbermaid tank. like someone else said, park the tank with the chord under the fence out of reach. Only problem with these 1500 watt heaters... they are very hard on the electric bill, up to $60/month in a Minnesota January. janet
what is correct conformation?
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am new to Fjords and new to breeding horses, so cannot pass on what I think is ideal, I am just learning that now. But in support of Don's letter, I do want to mention a few things that I have learned via other species regarding selecting for conformation, temperment, and soundness. There are two aspects to conformational ideals; one is how form relates to function, the other is simply beauty. I think in breeding animals, we humans get the two goals mixed up a great deal. There are some aspects to body structure that are important to a long life of service, or that may be correlated to temperment. But very often we focus on aspects that are purely desired because we find it nice to look at. Sometimes we confuse the difference between form/function and beauty. A wise old cattle breeder once told me, that if you want to see what a good cow looks like, go find an old cow, that has produced out on the range all her life and held up as a sound productive animal. That is what a good cow looks like. I think this advice is valuable in every species. As an example of form vs function... in dogs, we so often say a wide chest, and straight legs as ideal. The argument presented is that such a dog will hold up travelling over long distances. But look at wild wolves, they often are quite narrow in the chest, toe out, and are cow hocked in the rear. Yet wolves easily travel 50 miles per day routinely, and have been known to travel 500 or more miles in just a couple of weeks. I bet very few of our 'perfectly built' domestic dogs would hold up to that kind of travelling. In sheep and cattle, studies have found that the cow hocked animals can move longer and further than the showring animals with 'correct' hind legs.I believe that we have confused beauty with functional structure in these animals. I use various breeds of livestock guarding dogs on our farm to keep the wolves out of our sheep (Tatra, Maremma, Anatolian). Some of my dogs come from stock that were imported from farms in Europe. They are not pretty to look at, have various (presumedly) conformational flaws but they do their job very well because they have the right disposition (i.e. do not chase sheep, stay with their sheep, and are protective of their sheep). Other dogs have come from American dog breeders, who buy dogs in Europe and then try to 'improve' upon the conformation that European shepherds have 'neglected'. I have found some of these 'improved' dogs to have more soundness problems, and are not as reliable (i.e. not good working temperment). I am beginning to connect that some temperment qualities are related to certain types of body build, and that some breeders are selecting for the wrong structure because it is more 'beautiful' thus inadvertently producing more and more dogs that are not suited tempermentally to their work. It will be a long time before I learn how form/function/ and disposition relate to each other in the Fjord, but in defence of Don's point, we certainly can have animals that are functionally sound with good dispositions, but they may not be what we think is pretty. I have to agree that without a good working disposition the rest is pointless. When you get into a bind out on a slippery mountain slope, or along a busy high way, a calm, sensible horse is going to be the most important thing in the world to you. Janet W McNally
conformation vs confirmation
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi All, I have noticed that we have a lot of very pious fjords on the list, as they are all getting confirmed, presumedly in a church nearby. I rather suspect though, that the writers intended to use the word conf-or-mation, which refers to an animal's body structure ;-) Spell check won't correct it, because both are correctly spelled just different meanings. I'm am the last person who should speak up on spelling, mine is atrocious but I thought I might pass this on. Janet W McNally
western saddles/orthoflex
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> re: orthoflex perhaps they have improved as I know the company is now under new ownership. I purchased one 17 years ago, cost me $1700, presumedly custom made to fit me and my round backed horse. Never fit either well, created pressure points where the 'flexible pannels' hinge, and it most certainly does not fit my Fjord. The basic frame work of the saddle is simply not wide enough. The saddle *is* made to take abuse, and had endured a lot of hard work, but it always was inclined to slip and I had to buy a 1 inch thick wool felt pad (orthoflex wanted to sell me a $125 pad) to fix the pressure point problem. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2002 #241
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:40:05 EDT > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: western Fjord Saddles > > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I believe I remembered to introduced myself before. I have this 14.2, 1200 > pound, draft built fjord with flat withers. Any suggestions on particular > brands of western saddles with wide QH bars, or nice draft saddles that don't > cost over 2,000? Any people who do good, plain, custom work for that who > build their own trees if the Full QH and/or Draft bars aren't going to work? > I'm planning on using a tool called the Equimeasure kit, a piece of plastic > you soften in the over, toss into a box like a pizza warmer, and then lay on > your horse's back to get a form of the horse's back, in an attempt to broaden > my ability to look at Equine Affaire in MA in three weeks, but it dawned on > me that you folks might have a few suggestions as well. > > Thanks, > Shawna and SF Atom (Tom) > Hi Shawna, Circle Y makes a line of XXX wide western saddles for draft horses for around $1000. I purchased a Circle Y trail saddle with full QH bars for my fjord and it fits very nicely, but the XX and XXX are even wider. Our local tack store has these made with some extras. The extras include pre turned stirrup leathers to take the strain off your knees and ankles, round skirts, choice of seat. I find these very comfortable to ride, although the kinds of things we use saddles for (packing) I wish it was made a bit tougher. That local store is Ace Tack, in Cambridge MN. I believe they might be on the web. Janet
Clipping Fjords in work...yea or neigh?
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Question and a comment. Question... those who trace clip to allow their horses to dry out, I presume the horse must then be stabled or out of the wind? comment... regarding grooming for shows. One aspect to grooming that should be considered is breed character. If things like feathering on fetlocks are part of the fjord breed, they should be left untrimmed. Personally I like to stick to just the practical stuff, like the long hair in the throat, so it does not tangle in the bridle. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2002 #200
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:06:51 EDT > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Humane Society Calendar > > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Tis the season to receive calendars, along with requests for contributions. > Last week it was the Reagan Ranch calendar, addressed to my husband. This > week it was the Humane Society, addressed to me. Lovely calendar, and I will > pay them their $13.00 contribution. Pamela, is this calandar put out by the Human Society of the United States (HSUS) or by the other Humane society best known for its spay/neuter clinics and pet shelters? HSUS supports activities which are trying to completely stop the ownership of all domestic animals, including your ownership of the Fjord horses you love. Janet
Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Patti, Given that this gelding is a one owner horse, i.e. has no hidden history, and presuming that this behavior began suddenly, that it was not something that began with a little spook and grew into bigger spooks over time, or that there was not one traumatic incident to go back to, but instead he sincerely spooked big time from the start for no apparent reason, I strongly suggest looking into a physical problem, utilizing a variety of resources. You might check with the large vet clinics (such as the U of Minnesota) to find out what they are capable of doing. I'm not sure what the capabilities of WI and MI are. Perhaps before spending lots of on him, you might just do some simple testing to determine if there is some consistant trigger. do this safely of course, no horse is worth getting hurt over. An example I can relate to this geldings problem, is that eons ago I purchased a custom made orthoflex saddle from the company formed by Len Brown for my TWH gelding. Presumedly the cadillac of comfortable fitting saddles for long distance riding. You would not expect such a saddle to create pain would you? so a poor fitting saddle was low on my list of possibilities. However, my gelding, who had a heart of gold, and was previously riding just fine in an english saddle became extreemly agitated, almost out of control in the new saddle. It took a long ride, and visible raised patches on his back to bring home what the problem was. These saddles have 'flexible pannels' which are hinged at two points along the pannel. aparently my gelding was a princes, and he could feel the peathe raised patch told me he had a reason to be agitated, the hinges under the pannels were giving him pressure sores, even through 3/4 inch of leather, neoprene, and padding. Miraculously a simple thick wool felt saddle pad solved the problem and we rode hundreds of miles comfortably and controllably after that. Meanwhile, this saddle created no discomfort for any other horse I have owned, just that one gelding. Probably this has to do with the shape of the back, and the geldings pain threshold being very low. I offer this as an example of how a simple physical thing can create an unruly horse out of a good one. If his problem is found to be incurable, I think the best solution is to either make him into a pasture ornament, or put him down to be sure that no one will be injured, or that he might live a life of continually changing hands. regarding dangerous animals read Exodus 21:28-29. Best wishes, and keep safe. Janet
loose horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Speaking of driving -- while out on my drive (with a gal friend) we came upon > a loose horse - YIKES!!! I was not sure what to do? As it turned out > the horse came over near us - I waved my whip at him and told him to "GET" > and after standing and looking at us for a bit he ran off toward his barn. > I stopped on the road because I was afraid the horse would follow us if we > kept going - and start running - which would make Sven crazy?? There was > noone at home to yell at to come get the horse. Anyone have any experience > with this type of situtation? Hi Linda, yes, I have. I was selling a Tenn walking horse, and took the prospective buyer for a ride around the neighborhood. As we passed by a neighboring farm, we were greated with a STALLION on the road. double YIKES! I was riding an old mare who knew all about stallions. Before I could react, she spun around and gave him two rear hoof prints in the chest. The prospective buyer was fortunately on my gelding, who was as mellow as could be. But it scared the buyer half to death. My mare made quite an impression, and the stallion retreated. In addition to that incident, we were also passed by no less than 12 empty (i.e. very rattly) gravel trucks. No greater test could be rendered as to the stability of the gelding I had for sale! He hardly blinked an eye. But I could tell, that my prospective buyer was really shaken by the time we were done with the ride, and instead of being impressed with the steadiness of the gelding, I think she was re-evaluating whether she really wanted a horse at all. Janet
video tape fjord shows?
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Does anyone video tape the various fjord shows and evaluations and make these tapes available for sale? Janet
dogs and horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Peter, re: the dog chasing horses. I use stock dogs every day to work sheep and cattle. your shepherd/collie mix is doing what is instinctive... it is not something he thinks about before hand, but is reacting to stimuli, such as the movement of the horse. So this can be a very tough problem to solve, much tougher than other (sporting or non herding) breeds. A simple kick to the head might energize a dog with a good heeling instinct and they will just learn to duck next time. I tend to lean on three thoughts, one is that you could channel that heeling instinct into something useful, give him an outlet where he can practice his skills, where he will learn he will be rewarded (with healing cattle or sheep) if he obeys the rules (to only heel, or lie down, or back off, when asked). When the dog knows he will be given real and meaningful work, he can relax when he knows he is not 'on duty'. He will also have a great deal of practice at when to 'turn on and turn off'. The drawback to this idea, is that it takes a -lot- of work to keep a herding dog happy, mine work 2-12 hours a day, I would say 30 minutes per day is bare minimum. The other thought is that you could try the shock collar. Without proper training however, the dog will associate -where- he is when he is shocked, not necessarily -what- he was doing. So instead of fearing the horse, he might fear something unintended. So you need to pre train him to understand what is expected... he has to already know it is wrong to heel a horse, and then give him the shock the instant he ignores your command to lie down, or back off. the other option is to establish a visible boundry, for which he will be shocked for crossing into the 'horse area'. Today you can buy collars that you can vary the intesity of the shock with a dial on the transmitter, so you can give him what feels simply like a light vibration on the skin, to a full blast shock like a fence. the third is very simple. provide a nice roomy kennel, preferably out of sight of where you work with the horses. Provided he gets plenty of excercize every day, the kennel can become his place to R & R. My border collies enjoy being kennelled because they know they can relax there, and that I will soon bring them out for more work. Janet
swimming with horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Try swimming some time. It's pure enjoyment. Hi Mel, I've watched others swim with their horses, but have wondered, how do you avoid being kicked when they are doing the dog paddle? Do you float high enough to stay clear of the legs? Janet
Hair analysis and supplements
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Carol, I am not a horse nutrition expert, but I have a fair amount of education in nutrition of farm animals, and have worked as a nutritionist both with sheep and dairy cattle. Compared to these two species, horses have relatively low nutrient needs (balance needed, yes, lots of supplements, no) so I always marvel at how much stuff is sold to horse owners, and judging by the space taken up in catalogs and farm supply stores, it makes a lot of money for the vendors. Not only are supplements sold at great excess, but often for 4 to 20 times the price the same product would cost a dairy farmer. In the sheep and cattle business, we sample the forages fed to our livestock (hay and pasture) and look at them for macro and micro nutrients. These include Protein, fiber, Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Iron, Copper, Selenium, Iodine, Cobalt, Molybdenum, Sulfur, Pottasium. Your local area might dictate other micros. >From there you compare what your forage supplies to what a horse requires. >The National Research Council (NRC) publishes nutrient requirements for every >species, including horses. This is a useful guide for establishing what the >diet of your horse requires, although you may need an extension agent or >educated vet (not all take nutrition courses) to help you through it. Ideally your mineral mix should only contain those things that are deficient. Unfortunately the horse business overloads horses by 1) not offering balanced choices for the base tm mix (Mooremans is the only one I know of that offers a choice between an alfalfa based ration mineral and a grass based ration mineral, which are drastically different in Calcium/Phos ratio). 2) by providing some micros in such excess that they may actually tie up other nutrients, this is especially possible by layering various supplements into the ration, thus duplicating some micro nutrients. In the case of Selenium, this could be dangerous, for others, it just means creating a deficiency due to a surplus. so before you make any decisions based on the hair analysis, I would encourage you to first take a look at what is going into the horse, and find out if the deficiencies are due to shortage in the diet, or due to over supplementation from an unbalanced diet. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2002 #128
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > In a message dated 6/1/02 8:05:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << But if you > know you've got a good horse, with a great temperament, flawless > conformation > and also ability, there is no reason to not breed a mare that is unproven in > the show circuit. >> > > And how do you know this without competing? > Not everything of value about a horse can be evaluated in a show ring. We use our horses to move hay, move cattle down the high way, hunting, or to carry us on extended camping trips. Our most valued attributes in a horse is common sense and ability to perform work without getting hurt, which is hard to evaluate in a show ring where all the variables (logs, rivers, wildlife, steep slippery trails, and surprises around every bend) are removed. real work is a good way to evaluate conformation. The horses that are built right will hold up. Janet
breeding early vs late
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> fjordhorse-digest wrote: > This message is from: "Kelly Gage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi Pam, > The reason I say 9-10 years for breeding is not only because of the record > behind the horse, but the horse has also matured enough in the bone > structure and emotionally. The flip side to waiting this late is that when you discover you have a truly great mare, you have forgone producing a number of good foals, not to mention that sometimes the value of an animal is best seen in the offspring it can throw. You really do not fully know what the value of your mare is until you have bred her to see what she can produce. I have never heard of any harm done by breeding a horse to foal at 4. By waiting until 10, you have given up half of her productive life. Surely by 5 or 6 yrs you know what you have? I would be inclined to think she can physically handle babies easier as a young horse rather than an old one. I have made this error (being much too conservative about breeding) with other animals and very much regret it as I lost some valuable lines that could have made a great contribution to the breed. My policy now, if I have a young promissing (dog or horse) is to produce some offspring early, then step back and evaluate the results. Janet W McNally
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> fjordhorse-digest wrote: > > This message is from: "Erik Cofield-Erixart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi Janet, > > We have not spoken before, so my suggestions may be way off the mark for > most folks, and of course I don't know your style or personality. However, > I am a Viking period historical expert. Since Fjords were the war mounts of > the Vikings and can be traced to selective breeding for more than 1000 > years, may I suggest a Viking inspired name? There are many suggestions I > could make that are hard to say, but here are a few more obvious: > Rafneer (from Hrafnir, a horse owned by Swedish King Athils), Raven, Odin, > Tor (not thor), Orman (pronounced urmahn), Hest (Norwegian for horse), and > Borg. If you want a full list, send me a private email. Hi Erik, thankyou very much. this is the kind of help I need. Yes I would be interested in a full list if you have one. thanks! Janet
name needed
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We just had our very first Fjord foal born this morning (May 1st) at the crack of dawn :-))) He's a big long legged baby boy. I need ideas for a name. can anyone help? Janet McNally
DE
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I do not have information about using DE in horses, but have participated with the U of M in a controlled trail with lambs. We devided worm infected lambs into two groups, one that recieved DE in their feed for 6 weeks, and another group that recieved nothing. We did fecal egg counts on every individual lamb once per week for 6 weeks. There was no difference between the groups, and both groups produced fewer eggs at the end of the study than at the beginning. Without the control it would have been easy to conclude that DE worked, but the reduced egg count can also be explained by the fact that lambs develop resistance to parasites as they grow older. The fact both groups had equally reduced egg counts showed that DE did not make any difference. This result mirrors every trial ever conducted on lambs that I have read. When reviewing litterature, read carefully. The brochure I recieved from one vender of DE touted that their product had been studied at 7 major universities, leading the reader to believe the trials were succesfull. I called and asked for a list of the universities and then followed up by asking the universities to send me the report. Only three were able to provide any information, two dealt with insect control in grain, and one had marginally possitive results on specifically the large round worm in hogs, which is a very different creature than the kind that infect lambs. Personally I prefer to use products that have an extensive track record for safety and effectiveness. Janet
Minnesota Horse Expo
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi, does anyone know if there will be any Fjords at the Minnesota horse expo in April? Janet
selling composted manure
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One time I decided to try to sell our composted sheep manure. I put it in bags and set it at the end of the driveway with a can and a sign $1 per bag (self service). I had to quit because after 200-300 bags I could not keep up with the demand, the supply would run out and people would be interrupting me (during the very busy lambing season which corresponds to gardening season) to get more. Many even offered to go dig it themself and still pay me $1 per bag. Janet
compost
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> fjordhorse-digest wrote: > > Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:49:38 -0800 > From: "DT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Manure management > > This message is from: "DT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Has this topic been discussed? I have been reading up on this area and > wondering what some of you do with all the manure that you have. I am > especially interested in knowing what those of you who have the equivalent > of 1-2 horses per acre do. Do you compost? If so how do you go about it and > what do you do with the compost? I have heard that one shouldn't spread > manure over horse pasture as it will reinfect the horse. However I thought > if the pile had been decomposing anything in it that would reinfect a horse > would be killed. Does anyone know? Hi Deb, I know a little about compost. Properly composted, (requires the right mix of carbon, nitrogen, moisture and oxygen), the pile will heat up and kill -all- pathogens especially worm eggs and do so without odor. Composting has been researched here in MN as a way of disposing of dead livestock, not just manure. It will get so hot even bones desintegrate into ash. I do not compost horse manure now, but from my childhood days I recall the horse manure pile (manure + bedding from stalls) composted very well and got so hot it steamed. If the manure picked up on the pasture does not heat up, try adding bedding and moisture. Compost piles should be turned over 2-3 times to be complete. Once composted it most definitely has great value to you as fertilizer without the danger of infecting the horses. Janet McNally
founder
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The discussion on founder is timely for me. I am experiencing my first case of founder in a (non-fjord) drafty type pony of unknown heritage. Yes she is chunky, but not cresty necked. I am kicking myself for how it occured... I had just purchased a new load of round bales. This hay was a nice mix of alfalfa and grass, and if you take the bale as a whole, there was not too much alfalfa to do any damage. What I did not count on was the ability for this pony to 'mine' just the alfalfa leaves out of the bale. Unlike feeding rationed out flakes of hay where she would have to eat the entire flake, she did not have to eat the grass and stems and instead selectively borrowed into the bale eating only the thin layers rich in alfalfa. The other horses with her were unaffected. So now I have some questions. she is still standing, has been examined by a vet, and is now being treated with oral bute and cold water on the feet (all four are affected). She is not severly lame, but definitely tender, warm, with a detectable pulse. Her feet are trimmed. Someone mentioned that it was good to walk the horse, but my vet said to give her complete stall rest on soft bedding. Which is best? Besides feeding her coarse grass hay, are there other feeds or treatments that help reduce inflamation? Assuming the coffin bone does not rotate (I am still hopeful), how long will it take before she is ridable again? Why is bicarb not used to treat accute laminitis in horses? I am familiar with ruminants, and when a ruminant over consumes energy rich feeds, sodium bicarb (baking soda) is very theraputic in correcting the pH imbalance in the rumen. I realize the horse does not have a rumen, but is not the process of laminitis similar? Janet
Re: animal communicators
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just have to throw in my recent experience regarding an 'animal communicator'. This fall I sold a very nice light riding horse that had NEVER been sick a day in his 15 years, so that I could purchase a harness for my new team (that includes a fjord :-) Out of 3 horses, I had decided to sell this particular horse soley because he was indeed a very nice and fit riding horse and therefore worth sufficient to pay for the harness, and because I will be doing very little riding due to my creaky joints. After a month I got a call from the new owner who proceded to tell me that things had gone badly, that the horse collicked when she first brought him home (he went from mediocre grass hay at my place to alfalfa and grain at hers) that he got beat up by one of her horses, and now was coming done with some sinus thing (she admitted to having a prior case of strangles on the farm). She wanted me to take him back. She could tell I was heart broke over the whole thing and began to play on my emotions over the course of a number of phone calls and emails. Of course I could not take him back and risk bringing in a horrid disease to my remaining horses, but wanted to get him the equine company that I know he badly wanted. (The new owner refused to put him in with her horses after the big fight). I believed that 99% of the problems were due to the stress of being isolated. I offered her his pasture mates, a llama and an older horse we had here, which she refused. Anyway... during all of this she brings in an animal communicator. Every time I told her I was looking for a way to bring him back home (i.e. contemplating isolating him at the rented farm), she told me that the horse picked up, looked better and that the A.C. told her he was happy because he was going home. Then every time I told her that I was very worried about the sinus problem and just could not risk bringing home the nasty bug he had, I got a report about how depressed the horse was, and the AC said he had no will to live because he was not coming home. After a couple of rounds of this I played their game. I purposely told her I would try to find a way to bring him home just to hear the report... guess what, the AC said he picked up and was happy, then I told her (deliberately just to hear what the message was), that I could not take him back guess what... depressed horse. Now if this animal was really as telepathic as she tried to tell me he was, his emotions would have been unchanged because he would have seen through all of that to my real thoughts, right Finally I pinned the buyer to the wall and asked her what *really* was the problem... at which she admited that she had not planned on keeping a horse in a separate paddock arrangement (which really was not as necessary as she thought it was), and that owning another horse was more work than she had planned on! yeah, animal communicator alias says-what-you-want-to-hear-for-$$. In the end, I visited the horse, determined that now that he was past the big feed change, that he was well sheltered, well fed, and actually, very well bonded to his new owner, and finally, after I cut through the bs, she bought him a pony. Maybe there are AC's out there that are real, but watch out for the frauds! Janet
the push button fjord
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> fjordhorse-digest wrote: > If you are an inexperienced, unfit rider who bounces up and > down on your horses back and grabs his mouth everytime you are launched into > the air should you be surprised when your horse bucks, runs or refuses to go > forward? I certainly would *not* expect a properly trained horse with some experience to buck or run if it has an inexperienced rider on his/her back. My kids learned how to ride (and are still very much learning) by putting them onto well trained, experienced horses and putting on a lot of miles of trail riding. When they could not use their legs and hands well, we ponied them, as they grew older and gained experience we turned them loose. Yes they bounced, they grabbed the reins, and did many mistakes. But a well trained horse with a good temperment knows there is nothing to fear and does not run off, or buck. With coaching the kids learn to control their horses and neither learn bad habits. That is not to say that a really inexperienced rider cannot turn a well trained horse into a problem. They most certainly can given enough time repeatedly making mistakes. But this is not the same as just a poorly coordinated or unfit rider. Janet McNally
hauling horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Okay, for those of you with stock-type trailers, I'm curious. > > Do you tie your horses? If so, how? Facing forward, sideways, or > backwards? With a regular tie rope or an elastic type tie? How do you > minimize the potential for horses slipping and falling on curves or > hills or during an emergency stop? Hi, We have a regular 16 foot stock type gooseneck trailer. The goose neck gives you a smoother ride, and is much easier to get out of tight places. We installed a home made slant devider, so that the front 2-4 feet can be used as a tack room. The back then can haul 4 average horses on the slant, with the heads facing forward, although I've heard of people who alternated the horses too. This has worked extreemly well for us on very long trips, but as I said before, I insist on unloading the horses every 12 hours and at least standing still for 30 minutes every 3+ hours. Standing in a moving trailer is work, even for a horse, and I feel it is especially important to be sure the horses (and driver!) are rested before entering the mountains. I would never unload any horse, no matter how trustworthy, at a typical way side rest stop. It is much too easy for them to run out onto the highway if anything spooked them. Instead we have found that fair grounds or rodeo arenas are rather easy and plentiful to find and much safer, and if empty, you can turn them loose in the arena for a good romp and roll. I tie the horse with the lead rope, giving enough rope for lots of freedom, but never enough to get a foot over, and make sure that one horse cannot attempt to walk under another's neck. Sand provides the best traction on the floor, and some wood shavings over top of the sand can help absorbe urine. Before ever hauling horses, the driver should ride in the trailer around curves, with stops etc to get a feel for what it is like to travel back there. I read a study that found horses travelled best when facing to the rear of the trailer. They are better able to brace themselves in this possition, the slant is the next best thing. to Judy, sorry, I do not haul horses for others :-( Janet
trailering horses
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >This horse is a 28 year old T/B mare. No known reason why she went bonkers, >but the owner assumes it was because she stood in the straight stall of the >trailer too long, (3 days, instead of 2), and her arthritis hurt so bad she >couldn't take it any longer. I personally wondered about the possibility of >a driver not handling our AR hills and curves very well. I'm very sorry to hear about your horrible experience. We have hauled our horses on trips that required 20+ hours of driving. It is my preference to unload and rest the horses just before entering the mountains, as the constant up/down and turning requires a lot of muscle in any horse and has to be tiring. I am not possitive, but I think there are also laws about how long any animal can be held in a trailer without unloading for rest. I believe the law may require unloading after every 24 hours of travel. We have found out that many rodeo grounds and fair grounds as well as state/national forest areas will allow you to unload and camp for the night if the grounds are not in use at that time. We always call ahead for permission (use the chamber of commerce for the town you will be near), and pay some 'rent' to the club, even if none is asked for, and of course, clean up. It is really a good thing for the horses to let them get out and stretch, roll, and lie down if they wish. The rest also assures that -we- do a better job driving in the mountains. Janet
saddle fit
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I purchased an ortho flex when the company was relatively young. I am pleased with its construction, it is a tough, durable saddle. it has stood the test of many tough rides including packing out elk, and numerous abuses. However, for a saddle that was promoted as designed to be the best thing that ever sat on a horses back, it never lived up to that promise for me. First of all the gullet is too narrow for my wide horse even though it was custom built for that horse.Although the pannels are suppose to flex to adjust, they are limited to the width of the gullet. As a result the saddle slipped when mounted. It definitely does not fit my Fjord. The second problem is that the pannels are 'hinged' and at each hinge is a pressure point. Despite all the claims how you could use this saddle with out a blanket, mine required the booties and a 3/4 thick pad to prevent injury to the horse. I suspect not all horses would notice this pressure point, but mine did. I later discovered that a simple full quarter horse tree was all that was needed to fit. I just purchased a circle Y park and trail with full quarter horse bars for my Fjord, and it fits quite securely with good clearance at the withers. The saddle I purchased offers a 3 way rigging, which helps with fit. The saddle shop's expert explained that full QH bars are wider than the semi quarter horse tree, and that the circle Y draft tree was the same width as the full QH tree. I think the difference is only in the skirts and fittings. I'm not so sure that arabian trees are wider, they appeared to be the same width as semi QH bars, but I believe they are shorter in length and the skirts are always round.. Janet
solar fencers/new Fjord owner
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > We have had terrible luck with a solar fencer. No matter what we did, the > fence would short out and drain the power. The fence shorts out on: snow > bridging the gap between the post and wire, bugs bridging the gap, weeds and > grass, anything that falls on the fence.We eventually had to bring power up > to the fence and use the plug in type fencer. > > Suzan > Hi, I've been a lurker on this list. As a new Fjord owner, I have not had much to contribute, but alas this topic I can speak on! I have a few hundred sheep and operate up to 6 fencer energizers. Two are plug in models and 4 are battery operated. I've tested numerous solar powered fencers, and for sheep, none are 'hot' enough to do the job. But there is an explanation that goes beyond how the battery is charged for the problem mentioned above. First check the obvious, it may be the solar pannel is too small for the job. Adequately sized solar pannels are not cheap, and some of the cheap solar units found in catalogs are underpowered. A good solar pannel will cost over $300. But there is another possible problem. Some of the newer generation energizers (the unit that sends the charge out on the wire) are suppose to be 'smart' and send more energy out on the wire if something is touching (grounding) the wire. The idea is that minimal power is used when no animal is touching the fence, and then more power is sent out if the animal touches it, or if some vegetation is shorting out the fence. Thus assuring the animal recieves a shock. My own experience with these type of fencers is that they run the battery down -extreemly- fast when weather conditions or vegetation cause a short. Hence every unit that I have tried like that has failed, and I will now only use those low impedence units that send the same amount of energy out no matter what the weed load is. My personal favorite has been speed rite, but Gallaghar has been a good unit for others. I simply recharge the battery every 10 days. My new Fjord was purchased to move hay for sheep and cattle. I am in the process of training her team mate to pull. My perspective on price was a little different than those mentioned earlier. I basically compared the purchase to a tractor. Either I purchased a tractor, or put together a team. Factors that were extreemly important to me is willingness to please, quiet unflappable temperment, and lots of prior handling so that if we get into an akward situation the horses would trust me and remain calm. Sweet temperment that can win over a reluctant husband is a big plus. I purchased my mare from Patti Walter, who did a wonderful job training her. IMO the Fjord holds more value because of its unique roll that no other breed can fill. large enough to work, yet small enough to ride, with a wonderful disposition. Janet McNally http://www.pinenet.com/~tamarack/homepage.html
fjord horse magazine
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Is there a Fjord horse magazine or paper? If so could someone email the mailing address and phone number to me? I would also like to know if the "Blue Earth Show" is in Minnesota and if so, when? thanks Janet
