Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Well, given that we set up the javaflexcoders list and the phpflexcoders list and they get some traffic but not a lot, I don't know how actively we'll promote. As far as assigning moderators, I don't want to take that on. Set up the list, run it for a while, see if it takes. In the meantime, as I've said all along, I'm going to continue working with the team at Adobe as we try to move our forum infrastructure to a much better place. Long term I think having that system which can operate with multiple sections, multiple email addresses, nntp support, visibility into what's been answered and what hasn't, user ratings, etc is the right thing to do and I'd rather invest my energy towards that. I'm not going to do anything to prevent anyone from setting up whatever list they want. Folks do it all the time, there's a Flex list on houseoffusion and that attracts some CF folks. There is a Google list that still gets a few posts a month. Those Java and PHP lists that I mentioned, or the weborb stuff that you've mentioned. Our team was needed to get flexcoders off the ground, but I think we're far enough along that guaranteed Adobe presence is not a requirement for a successful list. Matt On 6/19/08 7:52 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess, the majority of the group tends to like the way things are now. That is hardly surprising given initial posting that most people who do not like the current solution would unsubscribe. It also came to the light that enterprise developers have some restrictions in selection of the client (email) software and problems with getting too many messages. It is also obvious ( by monitoring the messages for few month back) that the questions on enterprise topics are rarely followed and some design questions are answered on a different level then the original question. As a result, we see fewer of such messages lately. Potentially, enterprise part of Flex business might not be getting fare share of attention. So, here is the question - if we create separate list to see the need for enterprise list - would Adobe be willing to include links to it in the usual places/promote it/assign moderators? Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:01 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote: Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions, or etc. I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things (I like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech on all levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this, if it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc. anyways. If we split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever be happy on all levels. So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i want (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives those who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort and have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a more targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the magic number seems to be) and go for it. It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point) seems to offer more flexibility. Not even $0.02.. but dnk
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote: (not that I'm in favour of splitting, I'm not) -- but if the lists have not yet been created, and existing messages stay in the archive, what's to break? We're talking about a branching, not a migration, right? When someone tries to sign up, it'll moan at them, because we'll have closed the list down and kicked all the members off. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote: Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO. Exactly. I've had the exact same discussion on other lists (when moving to Google Groups, for instance). -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I have to admit to not reading all the 132 messages so far written on this thread, but my 2p... On 20 Jun 2008, at 10:15, Tom Chiverton wrote: On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote: Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO. Exactly. I've had the exact same discussion on other lists (when moving to Google Groups, for instance). Personally I feel this list would be a lot more reader-friendly if 'mailing list etiquette' was used more widely by contributors. In particular getting away from 'top posting' and unnecessary quoting would reduce traffic and time wasted by readers trying to find the new comment within the noise of repeated quotation. Some people are already doing this here and I'd argue their responses are much easier to follow. I also tend to find it a lot easier to read as plain text rather than as html text with all the extra Yahoo noise. The settings are easy to change in your Yahoo account. On 19 Jun 2008, at 09:40, Tom Chiverton wrote: On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, enjoy_jake wrote: Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to abandon flexcoders in favor of a more customized solution for solving our problems. This is not a good plan. Web based forums ... are simply not as easy to use as a mailing list. Mailing lists work... +1. I too find Web based forums a complete pain to use. Mailing list although basic, does a much better job. -- Paul creative-cognition Ltd http://www.creative-cognition.co.uk/ http:/blog.creacog
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
if u finally decide to do something about this, do it in a new thread, cause im sotopping reading this one / deleting it as fast as i see it :) i dont wanna miss an important decision about it, just have no time to follow the discussion ;) - Mensaje original De: Paul Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Enviado: viernes, 20 de junio, 2008 13:50:08 Asunto: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I have to admit to not reading all the 132 messages so far written on this thread, but my 2p... On 20 Jun 2008, at 10:15, Tom Chiverton wrote: On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote: Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO. Exactly. I've had the exact same discussion on other lists (when moving to Google Groups, for instance). Personally I feel this list would be a lot more reader-friendly if 'mailing list etiquette' was used more widely by contributors. In particular getting away from 'top posting' and unnecessary quoting would reduce traffic and time wasted by readers trying to find the new comment within the noise of repeated quotation. Some people are already doing this here and I'd argue their responses are much easier to follow. I also tend to find it a lot easier to read as plain text rather than as html text with all the extra Yahoo noise. The settings are easy to change in your Yahoo account. On 19 Jun 2008, at 09:40, Tom Chiverton wrote: On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, enjoy_jake wrote: Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to abandon flexcoders in favor of a more customized solution for solving our problems. This is not a good plan. Web based forums ... are simply not as easy to use as a mailing list. Mailing lists work... +1. I too find Web based forums a complete pain to use. Mailing list although basic, does a much better job. -- Paul creative-cognition Ltd http://www.creative -cognition. co.uk/ http:/blog.creacog __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Friday 20 Jun 2008, David Pariente wrote: if u finally decide to do something about this, do it in a new thread, cause im sotopping reading this one / deleting it as fast as i see it :) shrug If people want to create more 'focused' groups, go right ahead. No one will stop you. In the mean time, it looks like we will get some improvements to the way this list works, which is progress enough to me. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Thank you for the honesty, Tim. This list, and the Macromedia based essence of theme for Flex that has been a huge success, doesn't care about [enterprise developers like]you or me I wonder how you got that impression. Are there many people that feel that way? Flex has enterprise side to it and is promoted as enterprise grade tool. I do believe that Adobe targets that market as there are millions of java developers that are looking for new technologies to move into - with a majority of them in enterprise field. How they perceive the product and support does affect you and me in (hopefully) long run. Anyway, enterpriseflex group is created, anyone is welcome to join. I will post formal invitation with list of the topics it will cover as soon as all facets are ready and tested Thank you, Anatole Tartakovsky Thank you On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:40 AM, Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll tell you honestly Anatole, I've been an enterprise developer for 25 years. From EDLIN to Flex, I've seen it; so please don't propose that you have some un-known insight to software development. This list, and the Macromedia based essence of theme for Flex that has been a huge success, doesn't care about you or me. I appreciate that you have been able to benefit from Flex's success; but I question the motive to try and tell Adobe how to run their business. If you like the product, cool. If you don't, step off. -TH --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess, the majority of the group tends to like the way things are now. That is hardly surprising given initial posting that most people who do not like the current solution would unsubscribe. It also came to the light that enterprise developers have some restrictions in selection of the client (email) software and problems with getting too many messages. It is also obvious ( by monitoring the messages for few month back) that the questions on enterprise topics are rarely followed and some design questions are answered on a different level then the original question. As a result, we see fewer of such messages lately. Potentially, enterprise part of Flex business might not be getting fare share of attention. So, here is the question - if we create separate list to see the need for enterprise list - would Adobe be willing to include links to it in the usual places/promote it/assign moderators? Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:01 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote: Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions, or etc. I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things (I like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech on all levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this, if it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc. anyways. If we split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever be happy on all levels. So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i want (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives those who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort and have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a more targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the magic number seems to be) and go for it. It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point) seems to offer more flexibility. Not even $0.02.. but dnk
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, enjoy_jake wrote: Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to abandon flexcoders in favor of a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate. This is not a good plan. Web based forums (even if Flex based, I'm not sure why you're advocating any particular implementation detail at the planing state anyway) are simply not as easy to use as a mailing list. Mailing lists work, and as you say... Or maybe we should just bend Yahoo Groups to our will. ... that would be better. You'll never get us all to move to a different platform. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. rant Why should we risk ruining the list for everyone, because some people have poor client software ? There may be real, genuine reasons why someone is stuck with Outlook Express and can't access GMail, but that must be a *real* low number of people. /rant list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Moderating 'the whole list' right now isn't a chore. Would it get up in your inbox? No, I have a nice mail client. What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? About the same as if the list were split, at a first past guess. A 'specialist' would have to be subscribed to all the lists anyway. What about the quality of the answer? Splitting the lists wont change the level of participation. If anything it raises the barrier to entry. Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? shrug My mail client happily threads and sorts, creating 'topics' on the fly for me. Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? FlexCoders is not a reference resource. There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. You need better search. sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. My mail client indexes all mail into a local database as it arrives. Search is very very quick. GMail is probably even better. The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. This is a creating a huge barrier to entry. I don't think we should be doing that. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. What ?!? Why on earth would that be better ? RSS doesn't even support threaded comments ! We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Or your client. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote: New (proposed) The trouble with creating a totally new set of names is all the links scattered all over the internet would break. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Shudder. If it doesn't come through my mailbox, it doesn't happen. - Original Message - From: Enjoy Jake To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
(not that I'm in favour of splitting, I'm not) -- but if the lists have not yet been created, and existing messages stay in the archive, what's to break? We're talking about a branching, not a migration, right? ___ Joseph Balderson, Developer | http://joeflash.ca | 705-466-6345 Tom Chiverton wrote: On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote: New (proposed) The trouble with creating a totally new set of names is all the links scattered all over the internet would break. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:54 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. rant Why should we risk ruining the list for everyone, because some people have poor client software ? There may be real, genuine reasons why someone is stuck with Outlook Express and can't access GMail, but that must be a *real* low number of people. /rant There are several companies blocking access to Gmail and probably yahoo mail even. Heck, my previous employer blocked access to the yahoo interface for this list. Ironically, these companies are probably ones that have developers doing enterprise work that would understand what a enterprise-flexcoders list is about with out crying about how to define it. In my own opinion, adding multiple lists is a good thing because it simply is. Take CF-Talk,CF-Community,CF-Jobs, and CF-Server as examples. CF-Community is for non tech talk bringing the community of CF folks together, hey not everyone goes a twittering, flittering, facebooking, and such. I could care less about email client use, who uses which, and if a particular client is bad or good or makes you beer or bangers. I don't think this list is stagnant, this thread could provide proof of that, but its one thread lingering amongst only a handful. The Flex technology touches a vast array of other technologies and niches. You think HTML has only a single htmlcoders list? What about Flash itself? Curious, how many comp.flash.* news groups are there? Either way, new lists are going to be added regardless of blessings from on high or low as the community grows ever bigger, eh? DK list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Moderating 'the whole list' right now isn't a chore. Would it get up in your inbox? No, I have a nice mail client. What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? About the same as if the list were split, at a first past guess. A 'specialist' would have to be subscribed to all the lists anyway. What about the quality of the answer? Splitting the lists wont change the level of participation. If anything it raises the barrier to entry. Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? shrug My mail client happily threads and sorts, creating 'topics' on the fly for me. Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? FlexCoders is not a reference resource. There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. You need better search. sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. My mail client indexes all mail into a local database as it arrives. Search is very very quick. GMail is probably even better. The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. This is a creating a huge barrier to entry. I don't think we should be doing that. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. What ?!? Why on earth would that be better ? RSS doesn't even support threaded comments ! We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Or your client. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives:
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Also, I prefer my donated time help the entire community. I would not participate in one-on-one chat. I like the maillist. Tracy From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:34 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Shudder. If it doesn't come through my mailbox, it doesn't happen. - Original Message - From: Enjoy Jake mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
One-on-one chats could be saved and made searchable. But it seems like no one liked my idea anyway, so I won't bother with it. - Original Message From: Tracy Spratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:45:29 AM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Also, I prefer my donated time help the entire community. I would not participate in one-on-one chat. I like the maillist. Tracy From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Shudder. If it doesn't come through my mailbox, it doesn't happen. - Original Message - From:Enjoy Jake To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent:Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:52 AM Subject:Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
brucewhealton wrote: Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions, or etc. Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO. I have Thunderbird filters set so that all posts I make are tagged as responded, colour-coded and filed in my [flexcoders] folder. Likewise I can tag certain threads as watched if I wish (though it's not sophisticaed enough to give me an alert -- waiting for TB3.0 :), so I can find them later. Similar things can be done with Googlemail. If there was a chat room that would be great too. Again, a grouping by experience level might be good. Many projects or applications do have lists/groups for newbies and such, as well as more experienced folks - who will sometimes discuss things that have no meaning yet to the new user of Flex. Thanks, Bruce --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ya i wrote the same thing like yesterday but Mr. Chotin said that is what the purpose of the Flexdev network on adobe. I was thinking along the line of just creating a Flex/AIr/Coldfusion app and open sourcing it too. Combine Adobe Feeds, mailing list, chat and everything but i think the FlexDev on adobe does a good job. - Original Message From: Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:52:55 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback - Original Message From: Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups The first time I sent this, it only went to flexcoders-owner@ yahoogroups. com. I apologize to those who received it twice. Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality. I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate. Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it. Jake Hawkes - Original Message From: Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight. -TH --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson news@ wrote: From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging into the advanced category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list. To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day with the MXNA. So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to abandonment by regular users on all lists. A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list participation. In attempting
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote: Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions, or etc. I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things (I like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech on all levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this, if it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc. anyways. If we split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever be happy on all levels. So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i want (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives those who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort and have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a more targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the magic number seems to be) and go for it. It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point) seems to offer more flexibility. Not even $0.02.. but dnk
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I guess, the majority of the group tends to like the way things are now. That is hardly surprising given initial posting that most people who do not like the current solution would unsubscribe. It also came to the light that enterprise developers have some restrictions in selection of the client (email) software and problems with getting too many messages. It is also obvious ( by monitoring the messages for few month back) that the questions on enterprise topics are rarely followed and some design questions are answered on a different level then the original question. As a result, we see fewer of such messages lately. Potentially, enterprise part of Flex business might not be getting fare share of attention. So, here is the question - if we create separate list to see the need for enterprise list - would Adobe be willing to include links to it in the usual places/promote it/assign moderators? Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:01 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote: Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions, or etc. I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things (I like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech on all levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this, if it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc. anyways. If we split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever be happy on all levels. So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i want (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives those who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort and have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a more targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the magic number seems to be) and go for it. It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point) seems to offer more flexibility. Not even $0.02.. but dnk
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Reading the arguments about this subject is pretty confusing. One reason for splitting the list is so that more people will use flex related lists. Another reason for splitting the lists is that there are too many posts in one list. The list is apparently stagnating (!) so the splitting strategy is intended to revive it's fortunes even though the list has a huge number of postings that aren't appreciably dropping off. In my experience flexcoders has to be the most successful list that I know. Some are focussing on the posting stats for the list as some indicator of the health of the flex community. I think we should also look at external factors with that regard. For example, when this list was first started flex information wasn't so easy to come by so it was always going to be the place to come (once you found out about it). These days flex info is everywhere - magazines/books/vide/online - so it's not so neccessary to automatically jump to flexcoders for help. Secondly, a lot of flexcoders members are now rather better than they were with flex so may not need to post so often. Lastly flexcoders are busy people so flexcoders may not be their daily priority in the way it used to be. The flex world has changed. So I think that there are a lot of things to consider. Until it was suggested in this thread that flexcoders was stagnant/draining members/too busy I had no idea there was a problem. Perhaps there isn't. One phenomenom that seems to be growing is that of obscure please for help where the subject and post content is poor. I think the FAQ would help. Anyway, I'm not convinced there's a need for panic or overly fast decisions. Is it just that the flex world is maturing? Paul
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of So, we've reached a core of people who stay/help out - and some number of people on top of that that are basically 'churn'. Static member numbers does not imply a static group. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Stagnant is definetly not good for developing technology. It is also unlikely to be all good. Flexcoders increased 30% in 9 month ( from 7,500 to 9965) since August of 2007. The number of messages for the first 5 month increased approx 5% from the year before So huge growth when people switched on to Flex (around about when it stopped being stupidly expensive), then less ? Seems resonable, and nothing to do with traffic volume, which as others have said has been static. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Matt Chotin wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Aye. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This would be a huge bonus, esp. given #3. Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. Happy to be added, drop me a note if you are not aware of my adobe.com ID (it's not @halliwells). 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. ... involved in the thread. The more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become. I would say that trying to tag the subject line is probably a good idea to try and encourage - new users should pick it up if they stay, and it'll help the 'old hands' too. I wouldn't suggest rejecting posts that lack a tag or anything though, before anyone suggests that, and I'd not want the FAQ to try and define a definitive list either - just see what people use. 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has posting guidelines. If the group agrees that we want to try and reduce first-post on-topic but pointless messages, *and the FAQ is updated* I'd have no qualms about pressing that big 'reject' button and sending the user a nice link. Maybe the group/Adobe could agree a boilerplate response. 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems. This is good separation. CookBook if it merits an article to itself, FAQ on .adobe.com if it's a few lines of code or non-code, and FAQ on Yahoo for using the group itself. If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things set up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in the meantime. Again, assuming the group is OK with harsher(?) moderation, I'm happy to start doing it as soon as the editable FAQ is up. In the past I've occasionally made a post on my blog in answer to a question, and then pointed the thread there, and I've certainly seen others doing the same thing - if the group was really keen to do better(?) first-post moderation and didn't want to wait for the FAQ changes. -- Tom Chiverton, moderator This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting. Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components. You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb. See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here. All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Doug McCune wrote: Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? Nope. Kontact (well, Kmail) grabs all my Flex mailing list traffic into one folder. It could tag/color it if I wanted, but often it doesn't matter to me what list a post is on. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Josh McDonald wrote: That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've been here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow (sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier today... I *think* it's in 'soft launch' and will get a 'hard launch' later. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I do the same exact thing; except no color coding. Not sure if Thunderbird does that. ;) Multiple lists [which I think is a bad idea] to me just means more cross posts. Doug McCune wrote: Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders, flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity :) Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: cool. This discussion needs some resolving though. I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists. With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats, my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with the split. best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment, flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux, announcements, etc.. lets do it. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think of Best Practices and Architecture/Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman FreimanCQ@ wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement). - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, b_alen wrote: Can you do folders in gmail? I thought only labels are there and you still see all the emails in your inbox, even if you don't want to. Configure a filter to 'skip inbox' when it matches. I guess you already have a filter if you say you label them. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Jeffry Houser wrote: I do the same exact thing; except no color coding. Not sure if Thunderbird does that. ;) yeah tbird's tags are color-coded and can be part of your message filters. frankly i don't think it matters if the list is split or not as long as i'm able to mash it up into the info feed i want/need. though i'm naturally against having to manage more lists via yahoo, their lists engine simply hates me ;-)
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
That's exactly what I do. In fact that's the only thing I use this email address for. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders, flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity :) Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: cool. This discussion needs some resolving though. I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists. With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats, my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with the split. best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment, flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux, announcements, etc.. lets do it. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think of Best Practices and Architecture/Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman FreimanCQ@ wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement). - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
2008/6/18 Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, b_alen wrote: Can you do folders in gmail? I thought only labels are there and you still see all the emails in your inbox, even if you don't want to. Configure a filter to 'skip inbox' when it matches. I guess you already have a filter if you say you label them. There's even colour coding in google mail these days. As someone who used to be on this list, left it and just yesterday came back, I have to say that this list is pretty intimidating. (and I'm not easily intimidated) Mostly its because of the volume of traffic - how you could meaningfully split the list up to reduce the traffic, whilst avoiding cross-posting and dead lists, I'm not sure Sorry that this isn't particularly helpful. I just wanted to pass on a point of view.. :\ Stephen
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. *Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now* The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting. Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components. You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb. See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here. All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents, ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or flexcomponents, but only flexjobs). If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22% crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam. Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just thought it was interesting. Doug On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting. Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components. You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb. See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here. All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I was going to propose that we add a separate list for discussions on whether or not the list should be split up into smaller lists, but I suppose that would come of as fatuous, and that I think discussions like this are not important. They are. So, as just another flexcoders user, I'll second Doug's opinion. -- Maciek Sakrejda Truviso, Inc. http://www.truviso.com -Original Message- From: Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:03:16 -0700 Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents, ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or flexcomponents, but only flexjobs). If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22% crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam. Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just thought it was interesting. Doug On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting. Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
If a topic falls into multiple categories wouldn't it be logical to post to all lists that apply. Otherwise there might be a knowledgeable person out there you didn't reach. Wouldn't that be legitimate cross-posting? - Daniel Freiman On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. *Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now* The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting. Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components. You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb. See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here. All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Doug, flexcomponents is not moderated in conventional sense. The name of the group is confusing for new users. Very few people have a sense what the group is for. I am more concerned that the messages that do not belong to flexcomponents stay there. Crossposting has to be moderated and discouraged. Ban them first time for some time, permanently if needed. You can try weborb or flexjobs as examples of clearly distinct and moderated entries. I am getting few emails a week from people asking me to help them to write hello worlld type application in Flex - or help them with blog or book code - to find that they do not know they need a server. We created this culture with free products and support - and there are people who would take advantage. Regards, Anatole On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents, ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or flexcomponents, but only flexjobs). If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22% crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam. Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just thought it was interesting. Doug On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] anatole.tartakovsky%40gmail.com wrote: Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email. We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I would definetly vote to add moderate the first post for advanced groups like flexcomponents to deal with the issues Doug brought up. I believe that would make lists better for everyone. Sincerely Anatole On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, flexcomponents is not moderated in conventional sense. The name of the group is confusing for new users. Very few people have a sense what the group is for. I am more concerned that the messages that do not belong to flexcomponents stay there. Crossposting has to be moderated and discouraged. Ban them first time for some time, permanently if needed. You can try weborb or flexjobs as examples of clearly distinct and moderated entries. I am getting few emails a week from people asking me to help them to write hello worlld type application in Flex - or help them with blog or book code - to find that they do not know they need a server. We created this culture with free products and support - and there are people who would take advantage. Regards, Anatole On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents, ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or flexcomponents, but only flexjobs). If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22% crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam. Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just thought it was interesting. Doug On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] anatole.tartakovsky%40gmail.com wrote: Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Moderate first post is turned on for flexcoders and for flexcomponents, but I at least am more scanning for spam than stuff that really should be in flexcoders. Matt On 6/18/08 12:10 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would definetly vote to add moderate the first post for advanced groups like flexcomponents to deal with the issues Doug brought up. I believe that would make lists better for everyone. Sincerely Anatole On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, flexcomponents is not moderated in conventional sense. The name of the group is confusing for new users. Very few people have a sense what the group is for. I am more concerned that the messages that do not belong to flexcomponents stay there. Crossposting has to be moderated and discouraged. Ban them first time for some time, permanently if needed. You can try weborb or flexjobs as examples of clearly distinct and moderated entries. I am getting few emails a week from people asking me to help them to write hello worlld type application in Flex - or help them with blog or book code - to find that they do not know they need a server. We created this culture with free products and support - and there are people who would take advantage. Regards, Anatole On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents, ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or flexcomponents, but only flexjobs). If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22% crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam. Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just thought it was interesting. Doug On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:anatole.tartakovsky%40gmail.commailto:anatole.tartakovsky%40gmail.com wrote: Hello Tom, How is 1 list simpler than 1 list ? The same way threads by the topic are simplier then unsorted individual email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client supports it. Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2 - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main list in subtopics and one of them would be dashboards, charts and BI - getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer? Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access simplicity? There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go. The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets RTFM or go to flexcoders responses. The second type needs some discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest, giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases. I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across 20 forums. General list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little repetition of the questions as people could search much better. Things come in cycles. Please consider this as best practices from the historical point. Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the answer is yes, but not now The
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I think in dividing a list bursting at the seams, it seems, with too many diverse posts, that we don't forget that other list from which many migrated from when Flex 2/AS3 came out:Flashcoders. Flashcoders (and the newer Flash_Tiger) serves as a wellspring of AS3/Flash API info, so I wonder how practical an ActionscriptCoders list would be. And general UI design is also covered in some extent in Flashcoders, since they deal with many of the same issues. People make announcements related to open source projects all the time, and the rest should be for blogs, which is more a broadcast medium than lists, so the FlexAnnouncements list might not do so well. How about this: Existing - FlashCoders - FlashNewbie - FlashTiger - FlexCoders - FlexComponents - ApolloCoders (which would do well to change its name ;) - FlexJobs New (proposed) - FlexNewbies - FlexEnterprise ...and we see how they do before branching any more. ___ Joseph Balderson, Developer | http://joeflash.ca | 705-466-6345 Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: Existing - FlexCoders - FlexComponents - ApolloCoders - FlexJobs New - EnterpriseFlex - FlexUIDesign - FlexAnnouncements - ActionscriptCoders ? --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. 101 Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already handling this? 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting? Is is to show off new ideas or syntax questions. 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : ) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ? 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Josh McDonald dznuts@ wrote: That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole. It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?) meta-list that shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could read the all list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if that's feasible. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@ wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging into the advanced category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list. To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day with the MXNA. So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to abandonment by regular users on all lists. A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO. A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision is on the split. But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the emails is pointless. In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help many with list post management, and provide this list the boost it needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some post management strategies, such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to help users manage the flow. And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with some text like You have not posted in ___ months... or You have now unsubscribed... followed by please help us make flexcoders a better community experience by telling us why you have _ This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data collection method than an email personally send from a moderator, especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention as singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate the manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscribed accounts. If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number small just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into just three lists: flexcoders flexnewbie flexenterprise Even though the definitions are a little fuzzy, I think flexnewbie could be defined as not the difficulty of the question but the experience the user perceives themselves to be at, so there may very well be advanced and newbie questions on both lists, and that's okay. Likewise there will probably be some crossover into the flexenterprise list. I think it's fair to say that questions involving a substantial amount of Java/data services/large teams/enterprise workflows would qualify, without requiring the definition of enterprise be defined with scientific precision to participate. Too narrow a definition is a recipe for failure, any new the list needs to be defined without being too exclusive IMO. Thanks for listening, -- ___ Joseph Balderson | http://joeflash.ca Flex Flash Platform Developer | Abobe Certified Developer Trainer Author, Professional Flex 3 (coming Winter 2008) Staff Writer, Community MX | http://communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=4674 Tom Chiverton wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Matt Chotin wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Aye. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This would be a huge bonus, esp. given #3. Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. Happy to be added, drop me a note if you are not aware of my adobe.com ID (it's not @halliwells). 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. ... involved in the thread. The more people
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I'd just like to point out that we've just had a 108-message thread among 20 different Flex developers in 2 days. Somehow among the stagnation and overwhelming traffic we've all had a fantastic discussion :) I think this thread is an argument that this list is alive and very healthy. Doug On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Joseph Balderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging into the advanced category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list. To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day with the MXNA. So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to abandonment by regular users on all lists. A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO. A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision is on the split. But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the emails is pointless. In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help many with list post management, and provide this list the boost it needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some post management strategies, such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to help users manage the flow. And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with some text like You have not posted in ___ months... or You have now unsubscribed... followed by please help us make flexcoders a better community experience by telling us why you have _ This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data collection method than an email personally send from a moderator, especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention as singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate the manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscribed accounts. If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number small just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into just three lists: flexcoders flexnewbie flexenterprise Even though the definitions are a little fuzzy, I think flexnewbie could be defined as not the difficulty of the question but the experience the user perceives themselves to be at, so there may very well be advanced and newbie questions on both lists, and that's okay. Likewise there will probably be some crossover into the flexenterprise list. I think it's fair to say that questions involving a substantial amount of Java/data services/large teams/enterprise workflows would qualify, without requiring the definition of enterprise be defined with scientific precision to participate. Too narrow a definition is a recipe for failure, any new the list needs to be defined without being too exclusive IMO. Thanks for listening, -- ___ Joseph Balderson | http://joeflash.ca Flex Flash Platform Developer | Abobe Certified Developer Trainer Author, Professional Flex 3 (coming Winter 2008) Staff Writer, Community MX | http://communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=4674 Tom Chiverton wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Matt Chotin wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Aye. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This would be a huge bonus, esp. given #3. Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
The first time I sent this, it only went to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I apologize to those who received it twice. Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality. I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate. Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it. Jake Hawkes - Original Message From: Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight. -TH --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging into the advanced category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list. To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day with the MXNA. So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to abandonment by regular users on all lists. A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO. A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision is on the split. But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the emails is pointless. In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help many with list post management, and provide this list the boost it needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some post management strategies, such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to help users manage the flow. And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with some text like You have not posted in ___ months... or You have now unsubscribed. .. followed by please help us make flexcoders a better community experience by telling us why you have _ This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data collection method than an email personally send from a moderator, especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention as singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate the manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscr ibed accounts. If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number small just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into just three lists: flexcoders flexnewbie flexenterprise Even though the definitions are a little fuzzy, I think flexnewbie could be defined as not the difficulty of the question but the experience the user perceives themselves to be at, so there may very well be advanced and newbie questions on both lists, and that's okay. Likewise there will probably be some crossover into the flexenterprise list. I think it's fair to say that questions involving a substantial amount of Java/data services/large teams/enterprise workflows would qualify, without requiring the definition of enterprise be defined with scientific
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback - Original Message From: Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups The first time I sent this, it only went to flexcoders-owner@ yahoogroups. com. I apologize to those who received it twice. Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality. I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate. Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it. Jake Hawkes - Original Message From: Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight. -TH --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging into the advanced category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list. To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day with the MXNA. So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to abandonment by regular users on all lists. A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO. A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision is on the split. But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the emails is pointless. In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help many with list post management, and provide this list the boost it needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some post management strategies, such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to help users manage the flow. And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with some text like You have not posted in ___ months... or You have now unsubscribed. .. followed by please help us make flexcoders a better community experience by telling us why you have _ This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data collection method than an email personally send from a moderator, especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention as singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate the manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscr ibed accounts. If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number small just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into just three lists: flexcoders flexnewbie flexenterprise Even though
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I'm all for another interactive flex developers support website, but when it comes to my in-gmail-everything's-smooth, google searchable mailing list, call me Charlton Heston: From my cold, dead hands... -Josh On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback - Original Message From: Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups The first time I sent this, it only went to [EMAIL PROTECTED] com. I apologize to those who received it twice. Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality. I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate. Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it. Jake Hawkes -- Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee. :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I've been waiting for somebody to point that out Doug :) -Josh On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd just like to point out that we've just had a 108-message thread among 20 different Flex developers in 2 days. Somehow among the stagnation and overwhelming traffic we've all had a fantastic discussion :) I think this thread is an argument that this list is alive and very healthy. Doug -- Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee. :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Ya i wrote the same thing like yesterday but Mr. Chotin said that is what the purpose of the Flexdev network on adobe. I was thinking along the line of just creating a Flex/AIr/Coldfusion app and open sourcing it too. Combine Adobe Feeds, mailing list, chat and everything but i think the FlexDev on adobe does a good job. - Original Message From: Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:52:55 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a lobby, a few breakout rooms (eg: Flex Components, DataGrid, BlazeDS), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback - Original Message From: Enjoy Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups The first time I sent this, it only went to flexcoders-owner@ yahoogroups. com. I apologize to those who received it twice. Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality. I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate. Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it. Jake Hawkes - Original Message From: Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight. -TH --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging into the advanced category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list. To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day with the MXNA. So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to abandonment by regular users on all lists. A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO. A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision is on the split. But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the emails is pointless. In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help many with list post management, and provide this list the boost it needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some post management strategies, such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to help users manage the flow. And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with some text like You have not posted in ___ months... or You have now unsubscribed. .. followed by please help us make flexcoders a better community experience by telling us why you have _ This would be a far less
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Doug McCune wrote: The biggest issue I see is simply that there are way too many questions being asked that have already been answered (or that don't deserve answers because of the ridiculous way they are asked). Having many places to ask silly* questions will not stop people asking them :-) -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: A corresponding wordpress blog/website for each list updated with info by the moderators and contributors. It wouldn't have to be an InsideRIA style blog, just info relating to the list. This would just be static, on the order of months if not years. What's the point ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Wow, This sounds like deja vu. Months ago I got off this list becasue that was exactly what was happening (ridiculous posts, repeats). But I got back on a month ago just to get back into the community. When you have put your time in a list(which I have, this one and flexcomponents), it starts to get discouraging when you do get 'these posts' that are barking at you because they are under some rat race time line and can't figure anything out themselves OR RTFM! I decided to give this group one more try. If it doesn't work out, I will have to get off my lazy ass and blog more. :) As Doug said, if you don't have Gmail and don't know how to use it... get a clue. As far as splitting this group, good luck. This is like a bi monthly PMS state this list goes through. Look at flex components, it hardly has any posts within the last 2-3 months, why? BECAUSE these people are asking these component questions on flexcoders! Well fellow developers, good luck leading the horse to water. ;-) Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: A corresponding wordpress blog/website for each list updated with info by the moderators and contributors. It wouldn't have to be an InsideRIA style blog, just info relating to the list. This would just be static, on the order of months if not years. What's the point ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links -- Teoti Graphix, LLC http://www.teotigraphix.com Teoti Graphix Blog http://www.blog.teotigraphix.com You can find more by solving the problem then by 'asking the question'.
Auto: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I agree that the definition of Enterprise is fuzzy here. It's a definition of how well something is supposed to work. It's technology agnostic (in theory only). Everything that interacts with the Flex could go in this group if the project specifications demand a certain level of application functioning. I love the idea of a UI/UX group, but I think it needs to be defined in less general terms as well. If I'm trying to upgrade the UX of a datagrid, that might go in this group, but I imagine that this group wouldn't originally be intended for this purpose and might not have the expertise to solve this problem. This just needs to be more tightly defined, I'm guessing towards the designer side of the community/users. I think the actionscript group idea would have many cross postings. Imagine you're a coder who only uses actionscript. Every time you post you have to figure out which group to post to. When you get this one wrong people are going to get annoyed. Also, it may be hard to know if you're problem is actionscript based when you start. You may get an error in the framework which turns out to be because you have a complicated data algorithm in actionscript that screwed up first. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:32 AM, Josh McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drop actionscriptcoders and rename enterprise to RPC (or FlexRemoting or something), and I'm in. 95% of funky flex question are actionscript questions - unless it's an advanced actionscript list for things like VM internals stuff, in which case case perhaps it just needs a name change. Everybody likes to think what they're doing is enterprise. What we're doing definitely counts (Oracle *loves* us), but we're all SOAP - we don't use LCDS at all, so if people think enterprise is mainly for LCDS stuff we're going to get confusion. Didn't know about ApolloCoders, I think I'll go subscribe :) Definitely like the idea of an announce list, it could be moderated or you could subscribe to it as a daily / weekly digest. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Existing - FlexCoders - FlexComponents - ApolloCoders - FlexJobs New - EnterpriseFlex - FlexUIDesign - FlexAnnouncements - ActionscriptCoders ? --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. 101 Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already handling this? 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting? Is is to show off new ideas or syntax questions. 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : ) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ? 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Josh McDonald dznuts@ wrote: That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole. It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?) meta-list that shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could read the all list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if that's feasible. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@ wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting ourselves with the mail rules? John
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, John McCormack wrote: How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting ourselves with the mail rules? This makes the list less accessible to new comers. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
How bout people starting to trim their messages...? heh, yeah well that one has been asked before, I'm guilty due to trying to get other things done in the day. Gmail doesn't make it easy since the 'hide quoted text' is always collapsed. But really, I could care less about trimmed messages, it's what we are talking about that matters. Mike Recent Activity - 88 New Membershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnaGtkYTM1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMjg2MTY3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNzIwNwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjEzNzEwNTk0 Visit Your Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNWM0N2RlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMjg2MTY3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNzIwNwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyMTM3MTA1OTQ- Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personalhttp://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ol1ru26/M=493064.12016257.12445664.8674578/D=groups/S=1705007207:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1213717794/L=/B=4fVeCkLaX.M-/J=1213710594848770/A=4507179/R=0/SIG=12de4rskk/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance Guides, news, advice more. Popular Y! Groups Is your group one?http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oos7o7u/M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1705007207:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1213717794/L=/B=4vVeCkLaX.M-/J=1213710594848770/A=4763761/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/bestofyahoogroups/ Check it out and see. Learn to live a full life with thesehttp://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ose84bo/M=493064.12662709.12980595.8674578/D=groups/S=1705007207:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1213717794/L=/B=4_VeCkLaX.M-/J=1213710594848770/A=5349281/R=0/SIG=11ks6tatn/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/HealthyLiving/ healthy living groups on Yahoo! . -- Teoti Graphix, LLC http://www.teotigraphix.com Teoti Graphix Blog http://www.blog.teotigraphix.com You can find more by solving the problem then by 'asking the question'.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting ourselves with the mail rules? You can't force people to add keywords to their subjects (I'd also argues that any categories you come up with are inherently flawed and topics usually apply to many categories), since people unfamiliar with the list won't do it, and the biggest problem I see has to do with people new to Flex and this list (note that I highly support new developers getting involved and asking questions, but they should do a little research first and not ask someone to do their work for them). If people start tagging their subjects it might catch on and people might be smart enough to see the traffic on the list and adhere to the standard before posting, but I give it a very small chance. And if someone replied and changed the subject line then threading gets all jacked, which is why I suggested someone replying with a certain tag in the body of the message that we can use to filter the threads (not to categorize legit threads, simply to filter out illegitimate ones). Doug
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting. Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components. You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb. All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - we will see how people position themselves, and which parts of flex are actually position to grow. In old moderated world of CompuServe product of Flex scope would have 15-20 lists and that would give very concise picture of the product feature, median developer level, much faster/easier search and better networking. Thank you, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting ourselves with the mail rules? You can't force people to add keywords to their subjects (I'd also argues that any categories you come up with are inherently flawed and topics usually apply to many categories), since people unfamiliar with the list won't do it, and the biggest problem I see has to do with people new to Flex and this list (note that I highly support new developers getting involved and asking questions, but they should do a little research first and not ask someone to do their work for them). If people start tagging their subjects it might catch on and people might be smart enough to see the traffic on the list and adhere to the standard before posting, but I give it a very small chance. And if someone replied and changed the subject line then threading gets all jacked, which is why I suggested someone replying with a certain tag in the body of the message that we can use to filter the threads (not to categorize legit threads, simply to filter out illegitimate ones). Doug
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Trust me Amy, I'm not complaining about anything. If you want to put that stupid (...) after your little one liner, what do you expect me to say? Thank you for pointing out my flaws??? We were talking about cross posting and subject lines. Basically my answer was due to your rudeness. Talk about netiquette, new word for me. Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Amy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Michael Schmalle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How bout people starting to trim their messages...? heh, yeah well that one has been asked before, I'm guilty due to trying to get other things done in the day. Gmail doesn't make it easy since the 'hide quoted text' is always collapsed. But really, I could care less about trimmed messages, it's what we are talking about that matters. Why complain about the netiquette of others if you're not actually interested in following netiquette yourself? You don't care about trimming netiquette, some users don't care about using ridiculous subjects, some users don't know where to search before asking seemingly stupid questions. What do you see as being the difference? -- Teoti Graphix, LLC http://www.teotigraphix.com Teoti Graphix Blog http://www.blog.teotigraphix.com You can find more by solving the problem then by 'asking the question'.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for how-to type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to the bottom of every email. 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise], [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become. 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has posting guidelines. 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems. If this sounds OK then what we need are the two kinds of moderators: 1. moderators for the forum itself who are willing to really look at all posts that are in moderation and analyze whether they should be passed through. If it is a poorly formed question, the post should be rejected with a pointer to the forum FAQ. 2. moderators for the FAQ who can pay attention to common questions and update the FAQ as appropriate. If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things set up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in the meantime. Matt
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Matt, Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single group causes stagnation. If you agree with the numbers and reasoning behind it, let us look at the proposition in that light. IMHO, the mentioned measures while staying within the same single group would probably extend the number of users by 20-30% byhoping to reduce number of posted messages by the same percentage - but it is hardly the goal we are trying to achieve here. Realistically Adobe should be looking for place public pace to exchange ideas and networking as well as getting trivial help. The product and community are just too big for one group. Let us split it up and let each subgroup speak their own language. I would gladly moderate standalone enterprise/j2ee/best practices track. But looking few times a day @ the whole stream to fish out what might be related to the topic and having some messages falling through the cracks might be not the recommended best practices solution. Sincerely, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for how-to type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to the bottom of every email. 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise], [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become. 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has posting guidelines. 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems. If this sounds OK then what we need are the two kinds of moderators: 1. moderators for the forum itself who are willing to really look at all posts that are in moderation and analyze whether they should be passed through. If it is a poorly formed question, the post should be rejected with a pointer to the forum FAQ. 2. moderators for the FAQ who can pay attention to common questions and update the FAQ as appropriate. If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things set up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in the meantime. Matt
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is stagnant. Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need to post the questions over and over. What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a repeat) will largely solve this problem. So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about? Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single group causes stagnation. If you agree with the numbers and reasoning behind it, let us look at the proposition in that light. IMHO, the mentioned measures while staying within the same single group would probably extend the number of users by 20-30% byhoping to reduce number of posted messages by the same percentage - but it is hardly the goal we are trying to achieve here. Realistically Adobe should be looking for place public pace to exchange ideas and networking as well as getting trivial help. The product and community are just too big for one group. Let us split it up and let each subgroup speak their own language. I would gladly moderate standalone enterprise/j2ee/best practices track. But looking few times a day @ the whole stream to fish out what might be related to the topic and having some messages falling through the cracks might be not the recommended best practices solution. Sincerely, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for how-to type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to the bottom of every email. 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise], [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become. 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has posting guidelines. 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove the
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is stagnant. Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need to post the questions over and over. What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a repeat) will largely solve this problem. So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about? Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single group causes stagnation. If you agree with the numbers and reasoning behind it, let us look at the proposition in that light. IMHO, the mentioned measures while staying within the same single group would probably extend the number of users by 20-30% byhoping to reduce number of posted messages by the same percentage - but it is hardly the goal we are trying to achieve here. Realistically Adobe should be looking for place public pace to exchange ideas and networking as well as getting trivial help. The product and community are just too big for one group. Let us split it up and let each subgroup speak their own language. I would gladly moderate standalone enterprise/j2ee/best practices track. But looking few times a day @ the whole stream to fish out what might be related to the topic and having some messages falling through the cracks might be not the recommended best practices solution. Sincerely, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for how-to type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to the bottom of every email. 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise], [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The more people follow this
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
OK, I eat my words in terms of message growth then :) Touche. Thanks for those stats. I'd actually be interested in getting access to the raw data dump for the entire list to run some analysis, but that's getting off topic. Just one point, which has already been brought up, but now that we're looking at #s, here are the #s for flexcomponents (note also that this doesn't discount for cross-posts to flexcoders as well, which I assume are a large portion too): Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2008 159http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3300 153 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3459 88http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3612 59 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3700 45http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3759 39 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3804 2007 190 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1087 234 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1277 442http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1511 149 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1953 168http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2102 260 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2270 103http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2530 183 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2633 96http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2816 119 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2912 129http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3031 140 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3160 2006 297 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1 68http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/298 211 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/366 89http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/577 184 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/666 237http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/850 I'm not saying that if you split the group all the small groups will follow that fate, but as everyone has mentioned, flexcomponents was specifically made to try to keep custom component development out of the main flexcoders mailing list, and I don't think anyone will argue that that has worked. Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is stagnant. Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need to post the questions over and over. What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a repeat) will largely solve this problem. So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about? Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Doug, Before we get into details please note that you have smaller group 30% size of flexcoders members count posting 5% of the flexcoders message count - but people do not flee as the traffic does not force them, they get occasional emails and they have chance to follow up. Flexcomponents is a bad example of a community site - it was set up for 3rd party components developers, and as far as I know most of components for Flex are either OS free ones consolidated elsewhere or proprietary supported on the respected sites. I am looking at FlexComponents as advertising board for new stuff, but it does not seem appropriate to ask there questions on the particular framework or component. So the association with Adobe/Flex is not playing real role there. Personally, after posting few messages there and getting responses via private email I switched to that mode myself . You usually just email/call 3rd party developer to find out about interesting aspects or particular applicability/availability of the developers for subcontracting in their field of specialty. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I eat my words in terms of message growth then :) Touche. Thanks for those stats. I'd actually be interested in getting access to the raw data dump for the entire list to run some analysis, but that's getting off topic. Just one point, which has already been brought up, but now that we're looking at #s, here are the #s for flexcomponents (note also that this doesn't discount for cross-posts to flexcoders as well, which I assume are a large portion too): Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2008 159http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3300 153 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3459 88http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3612 59 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3700 45http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3759 39 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3804 2007 190http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1087 234 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1277 442http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1511 149 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1953 168http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2102 260 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2270 103http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2530 183 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2633 96http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2816 119 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2912 129http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3031 140 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3160 2006 297 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1 68http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/298 211 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/366 89http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/577 184 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/666 237http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/850 I'm not saying that if you split the group all the small groups will follow that fate, but as everyone has mentioned, flexcomponents was specifically made to try to keep custom component development out of the main flexcoders mailing list, and I don't think anyone will argue that that has worked. Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is stagnant. Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true (although
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Tim, Stagnant is definetly not good for developing technology. It is also unlikely to be all good. Flexcoders increased 30% in 9 month ( from 7,500 to 9965) since August of 2007. The number of messages for the first 5 month increased approx 5% from the year before - even with major release this year and fewer news last year. In the same time (since August 2007) our Flex related blogs got sustainable increase of over 100% unique users and that number is quite higher then the number of flexcoders. Very unlikely given prominent place Adobe gives to this user group that number of flexcoders should not increase even faster. It is either usability problem or we are just lucky. Adobe has to run extended stats on subscription / unsubscription dynamics and decide what to do. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No words to eat man. Those numbers also indicate that there hasn't been a sudden explosion in message volume recently. It's been consitant for years. So, the need to drastically re-structure because of the Inbox doesn't fly. Stagnation, perhaps. Less un-answered questions being asked. Anyway, change or not, its all good. -TH --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I eat my words in terms of message growth then :) Touche. Thanks for those stats. I'd actually be interested in getting access to the raw data dump for the entire list to run some analysis, but that's getting off topic. Just one point, which has already been brought up, but now that we're looking at #s, here are the #s for flexcomponents (note also that this doesn't discount for cross-posts to flexcoders as well, which I assume are a large portion too): Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2008 159http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3300 153 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3459 88http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3612 59 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3700 45http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3759 39 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3804 2007 190 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1087 234 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1277 442http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1511 149 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1953 168http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2102 260 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2270 103http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2530 183 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2633 96http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2816 119 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/2912 129http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3031 140 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/3160 2006 297 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/1 68http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/298 211 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/366 89http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/577 184 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/666 237http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcomponents/messages/850 I'm not saying that if you split the group all the small groups will follow that fate, but as everyone has mentioned, flexcomponents was specifically made to try to keep custom component development out of the main flexcoders mailing list, and I don't think anyone will argue that that has worked. Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-) This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as necessary to try to make that happen. Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those folks who have been hurt we can assume are folks who are not on the list anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month. Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing so would actually improve things. Matt On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is stagnant. Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need to post the questions over and over. What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a repeat) will largely solve this problem. So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about? Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single group causes stagnation. If you agree with the numbers and
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I plan on gathering a complete archive of the list over the next week and doing some analysis. I'll post the full dataset once I get it compiled to let others play with it too. I'm working on a variety of ways to get a compiled list of all messages, but I think between either scraping the mail archive site and scraping the yahoo group site I should have it figured out in another week. Then of course I'll build some flex apps to crunch some of the data :) Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-) This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as necessary to try to make that happen. Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those folks who have been hurt we can assume are folks who are not on the list anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month. Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing so would actually improve things. Matt On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the group was stagnant and has plateaued with the number of new users and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it stopped growing. So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is stagnant. Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need to post the questions over and over. What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I certainly skim and sometimes skip entire
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Matt, I'm definitely interested in knowing some of these stats. You could also track postings-per-user over time, and identify people who are likely candidates for a hey, why'd you quit the list? private email. I don't think anybody would be mad about being contact by an Adobe representative who's trying to help the community. -Josh On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-) This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as necessary to try to make that happen. Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those folks who have been hurt we can assume are folks who are not on the list anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month. Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing so would actually improve things. Matt -- Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee. :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
*grin* On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then of course I'll build some flex apps to crunch some of the data :) -- Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee. :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have it linked at the footer. Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that answers are terse due to volume. Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list mommies. I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be beneficial to all as well as the community. Do we know this for a fact? Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other topics in the past. Conversely it may have hindered others, but perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who knows. Hey, there are already multiple lists, besides flexcomponents there is HOF_Flex for one and the India based list too, I'm sure there are others. I suggest we start off with a couple very generic variants. flexcoders_enterprise seems ok to me, those that work with enterprise tools would find it obvious. leave flexcoders as is, add in a designer centric list, and a advanced list and go from there, revisit in a few months to see how it went. Oh, BTW there are other email readers that do threaded tricks like GMail...though I don't use them. :) DK On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for how-to type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to the bottom of every email. 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise], [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become. 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has posting guidelines. 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems. If this sounds OK then what we need are the two kinds of moderators: 1. moderators for the forum itself who are willing to really look at all posts that are in moderation and analyze whether they should be passed through. If it is a poorly formed question, the post should be rejected with a pointer to the forum FAQ. 2. moderators for the FAQ who can pay attention to common questions and update the FAQ as appropriate. If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things set up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in the meantime. Matt -- Douglas Knudsen http://www.cubicleman.com this is my signature, like it?
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement). - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have it linked at the footer. Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that answers are terse due to volume. Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list mommies. I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be beneficial to all as well as the community. Do we know this for a fact? Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other topics in the past. Conversely it may have hindered others, but perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who knows. Hey, there are already multiple lists, besides flexcomponents there is HOF_Flex for one and the India based list too, I'm sure there are others. I suggest we start off with a couple very generic variants. flexcoders_enterprise seems ok to me, those that work with enterprise tools would find it obvious. leave flexcoders as is, add in a designer centric list, and a advanced list and go from there, revisit in a few months to see how it went. Oh, BTW there are other email readers that do threaded tricks like GMail...though I don't use them. :) DK On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED]mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K? Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion. 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for how-to type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Matt, Doug, If you can just count subscriptions for the last 9 month, then take out 2500 of the accumulated difference, you would get unsubscribes. I assume that you are working off logs, not from the memberships export as it would remove unsubscribed members within the week (some busy people are really quick). For example if we speculate using your rate of 100 per week it would be 40% of unsubscibes on 75% annual growth rate if people would not unsubscribe. The next question would be average length of subscription - ie how many experienced users are staying in the community. Next it needs to be adjusted for how many of these 10K members are actually getting their feeds rather then having it in Web Only/Digest mode if that number is significant - and when do they switch to Web Only and Digestmode. One way or another number of messages in community has to correlate with the number of active members. Once we establish actual retaining numbers we should see the point when/if message number hurts the usability. Now, *why am I suggesting 15 groups in place of one*? *Do I really think all of them would work*? No, but: 1. We would reasonably quickly find out which ones do - can either fold the rest of them in generic one or combine in more targeted bigger ones. 2. Make asking person job harder by forcing them to think what kind of question he is about to ask and what type of person he would like to answer the question 3. Instead of making Alex answer the same messages weekly you can get more moderators with reasonably light load and good handle on the things in their domain. The model is similar to Community Experts except it would be nominated/driven by community. BOF groups are better communication platform then one size fit all marketplace. Let the community be its own search engine and provide us with the metrics - by supporting more natural process of finding information and networking. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-) This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as necessary to try to make that happen. Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those folks who have been hurt we can assume are folks who are not on the list anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month. Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing so would actually improve things. Matt On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]anatole.tartakovsky%40gmail.com wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes count. Regards, Anatole On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED]doug%40dougmccune.com wrote: Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Correlating subscribes, unsubscribes, and everybody who posted in the last month should be fairly easy when Doug's cooked up his list of threads/messages combined with what I assume are logs of subscribe and unsubscribe that Matt and co. have access to. From that we can work out average turnover, subscription length, lurker %, etc... -Josh On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Doug, If you can just count subscriptions for the last 9 month, then take out 2500 of the accumulated difference, you would get unsubscribes. I assume that you are working off logs, not from the memberships export as it would remove unsubscribed members within the week (some busy people are really quick). For example if we speculate using your rate of 100 per week it would be 40% of unsubscibes on 75% annual growth rate if people would not unsubscribe. The next question would be average length of subscription - ie how many experienced users are staying in the community. Next it needs to be adjusted for how many of these 10K members are actually getting their feeds rather then having it in Web Only/Digest mode if that number is significant - and when do they switch to Web Only and Digestmode. One way or another number of messages in community has to correlate with the number of active members. Once we establish actual retaining numbers we should see the point when/if message number hurts the usability. Now, *why am I suggesting 15 groups in place of one*? *Do I really think all of them would work*? No, but: 1. We would reasonably quickly find out which ones do - can either fold the rest of them in generic one or combine in more targeted bigger ones. 2. Make asking person job harder by forcing them to think what kind of question he is about to ask and what type of person he would like to answer the question 3. Instead of making Alex answer the same messages weekly you can get more moderators with reasonably light load and good handle on the things in their domain. The model is similar to Community Experts except it would be nominated/driven by community. BOF groups are better communication platform then one size fit all marketplace. Let the community be its own search engine and provide us with the metrics - by supporting more natural process of finding information and networking. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-) This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as necessary to try to make that happen. Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those folks who have been hurt we can assume are folks who are not on the list anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month. Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing so would actually improve things. Matt On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]anatole.tartakovsky%40gmail.com wrote: Doug, As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats (
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I think of Best Practices and Architecture/Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement). - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have it linked at the footer. Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that answers are terse due to volume. Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list mommies. I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be beneficial to all as well as the community. Do we know this for a fact? Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other topics in the past. Conversely it may have hindered others, but perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who knows. Hey, there are already multiple lists, besides flexcomponents there is HOF_Flex for one and the India based list too, I'm sure there are others. I suggest we start off with a couple very generic variants. flexcoders_enterprise seems ok to me, those that work with enterprise tools would find it obvious. leave flexcoders as is, add in a designer centric list, and a advanced list and go from there, revisit in a few months to see how it went. Oh, BTW there are other email readers that do threaded tricks like GMail...though I don't use them. :)
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/AIR all in one, combine Adobe feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents and everything in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categories like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. - Original Message From: Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I think of Best Practices and Architecture/ Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ gmail.com wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/ amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement) . - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ ... wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have it linked at the footer. Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that answers are terse due to volume. Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list mommies. I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be beneficial to all as well as the community. Do we know this for a fact? Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other topics in the past. Conversely it may have hindered others, but perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
something like this http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/ would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done. - Original Message From: Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR all in one, combine Adobe feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents and everything in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. - Original Message From: Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I think of Best Practices and Architecture/ Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ gmail.com wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/ amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement) . - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ ... wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have it linked at the footer. Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that answers are terse due to volume. Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to the best
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this already. Go searching on adobe.com in the dev center for Flex and you'll see that it aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc. Matt On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: something like this http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/ would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done. - Original Message From: Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR all in one, combine Adobe http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/ feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents and everything in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. - Original Message From: Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I think of Best Practices and Architecture/ Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ gmail.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com , Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/ amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement) . - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ ... wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/ Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've been here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow (sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier today... -Josh On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this already. Go searching on adobe.com in the dev center for Flex and you'll see that it aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc. Matt On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: something like this http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/ would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done. - Original Message From: Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR all in one, combine Adobe http://www.adobe.com/ http://www.adobe.com/ feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents and everything in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. - Original Message From: Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I think of Best Practices and Architecture/ Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ gmail.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/ amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders, flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity :) Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cool. This discussion needs some resolving though. I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists. With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats, my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with the split. best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment, flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux, announcements, etc.. lets do it. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think of Best Practices and Architecture/Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman FreimanCQ@ wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement). - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ wrote: Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have it linked at the footer. Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Yep, something we launched a blogged about a month or two ago. http://community.adobe.com/ion/index.html Matt On 6/17/08 9:35 PM, Josh McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've been here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow (sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier today... -Josh On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this already. Go searching on adobe.com http://adobe.comhttp://adobe.com in the dev center for Flex and you'll see that it aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc. Matt On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: something like this http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/ would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done. - Original Message From: Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR all in one, combine Adobe http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/ feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents and everything in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. - Original Message From: Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.comhttp://ups.comhttp://ups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I think of Best Practices and Architecture/ Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ gmail.com http://gmail.comhttp://gmail.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/ amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
No Doug, I do the exact same thing. Fewer lists (like my current flex job, not using degrafa / pv3d, etc), but they're all going into the flex list. Once you learn not to care about the messages you mark read without reading them (kinda like ignoring a ringing phone, in my mind) it works pretty well. I feel I'm able to do my part when it comes to helping others on the list. -Josh On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders, flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity :) Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cool. This discussion needs some resolving though. I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists. With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats, my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with the split. best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment, flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux, announcements, etc.. lets do it. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think of Best Practices and Architecture/Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman FreimanCQ@ wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question and the response from Gordon was I talked to a guy on the player team... If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it (sorry for the overstatement). - Daniel Freiman On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen douglasknudsen@ wrote: Having been on
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Well if it's only a month old I don't feel so stupid for not knowing about it ;-) On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, something we launched a blogged about a month or two ago. http://community.adobe.com/ion/index.html Matt On 6/17/08 9:35 PM, Josh McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've been here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow (sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier today... -Josh On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this already. Go searching on adobe.com http://adobe.comhttp://adobe.com in the dev center for Flex and you'll see that it aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc. Matt On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: something like this http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/ would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done. - Original Message From: Sherif Abdou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR all in one, combine Adobe http://www.adobe.com/ http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/http://www.adobe.com/ feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents and everything in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. - Original Message From: Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.comhttp://ups.comhttp://ups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups I think of Best Practices and Architecture/ Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ gmail.com http://gmail.comhttp://gmail.com mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com http://ups.comhttp://ups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com flexcoders%252540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20 flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com%2520 mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com flexcoders%252540yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com flexcoders%252540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20 flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com%2520 mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com flexcoders%252540yahoogroups.com , Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/ amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Doug, I have few from the list in high priority gmail list that I monitor during the day along with personal and unsecured business messages. Priority account is associated with GTalk and other real time communications including push to mobile devices and todo/calendar lists. The rest goes to low priority list that I skimp once or twice a day at best. It is more often wiped out then read after a brief scan - sorry to say flexcoders is in low priority gmail account along with few other groups. That way I can maintain some productivity if needed. Regards, Anatole PS Obviously, there is also secured IMAP aggregator that distributes all business and private correspondence that goes to conventional email agent as well. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders, flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity :) Doug On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: cool. This discussion needs some resolving though. I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists. With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats, my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with the split. best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment, flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux, announcements, etc.. lets do it. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think of Best Practices and Architecture/Concepts as separate but overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it up. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list. For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some interesting topics were brought up and discussed. From my point of view I'm always learning. It would be an interesting read for me. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com, Daniel Freiman FreimanCQ@ wrote: I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone against this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list? As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be for. I'll take the enterprise example. Let's assume for a second it has only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many people disagree with me on that). Enterprise has become a buzzword with many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a enterprise list given every way I know to interpret the word). And if we don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to be a fine line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line. Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of having an arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would) or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to users of all skill levels)? Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy (Too much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). Sometimes you don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer. I've had a few times where I've asked what
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex-owner%40yahoogroups.com FlexUI FlexDesign FlexSDK FlexDeployment FlexFlash FlexFrameworks FlexBestPractices EnterpriseFlex: FlexBlazeDS: weborb: Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:enterpriseflex-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto:enterpriseflex-owner%40yahoogroups.com FlexUI FlexDesign FlexSDK FlexDeployment FlexFlash FlexFrameworks FlexBestPractices EnterpriseFlex: FlexBlazeDS: weborb: Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I'm not against spinning off remoting ie LCDS, Blaze, SOAP, REST etc into another group, but like others I think the mix of vets and noobs is a good thing. As for inbox management, here's what I do that works for me (gmail btw): All messages from the list go straight into archive, not my inbox All threads I've posted to get a star with a mail filter Any threads I'm interested in, I star. When I come to see a large number of unread threads from the list, I open any unread messages in starred threads. Then I scan the remaining unread subjects for anything that I might be able to help with, or that I might like to know the answer to - I open messages, and either reply or star them if I'm interested / I can help. Anything else, I simply mark read and move on. I don't need to read every message, and neither do you. There's a fair few people here who are willing to help, and we're on different time zones. I don't think many reasonable questions are being overlooked. During the day, the list is low-enough traffic that I can see 5 - 10 messages at a time, and I just open anything that looks remotely interesting or I think I can probably help with, and mark read the rest. When there's just too many damned new messages, I read only the starred threads and mark the rest all as read without paying attention. I have been thinking about filters that scan incoming message bodies for things I'm interested in / know some about (such as SOAP and various XML encoders / decoders), but haven't bothered to do that yet. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My appologies Anatole; I mispelled your name. No offense intended. -TH --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Tim Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Anotole, This topic has been brought up several times since this list was established. At times, it does seem that the post topics are very diverse. However, with the clear exception of flexcomponents, the suggestion to split the list into sub groups has been consistantly avoided; to reduce the number of feeds that the primary responders to the list have to monitor. It would be near impossible for the Adobe experts, and others on this list, to regulary respond to the wide variety of posts that are made if they had to watch 12 different lists. Agreed, like RSS feeds, the inbox gets full rather quickly. Just using the Yahoo interface, to scan messages, works great and doesn't take up much time at all though. And yes, there are frequent questions by people that are new to flex. I look at helping people that are just starting as paying it forward. The mix on this list is diverse, but people can always go to the Adobe Flex forums; if they want more specialized focus. I don't want to sound like I'm not agreeing with your proposal; it has merit. However, it would probably splinter the group too much. If anything, I think the quality and focus would be improved if people tried to limit the posts/responses to Flex related issues. That would probably reduce the inbox clutter by 1/3. :-) -TH --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101%40yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com EnterpriseFlex:
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED]bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101%40yahoogroups.com flex101%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flex101%40yahoogroups.com flex101%2540yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-unsubscribe%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-unsubscribe%2540yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com flex101-owner%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.comflex101-owner%2540yahoogroups.com EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.commailto: enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com enterpriseflex%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.comenterpriseflex%2540yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comenterpriseflex-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Matt - I like the idea of a few lists, but agree 12 is way too many. I *hate* the way yahoo handles its accounts, and I'd love to move to a list (or lists) hosted and blessed by Adobe, but definitely never going to happen if it's not accessible via email, unless there's some *seriously* flexible (custom?) RSS feeds I could plug into my reader... :) -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED]bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101%40yahoogroups.com flex101%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flex101%40yahoogroups.com flex101%2540yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-unsubscribe%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-unsubscribe%2540yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com flex101-owner%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.comflex101-owner%2540yahoogroups.com EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.commailto: enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com enterpriseflex%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.comenterpriseflex%2540yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole. It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?) meta-list that shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could read the all list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if that's feasible. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED]mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED]bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101%40yahoogroups.com flex101%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flex101%40yahoogroups.com flex101%2540yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-subscribe%2540yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-unsubscribe%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comflex101-unsubscribe%2540yahoogroups.com List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.commailto: flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com flex101-owner%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.comflex101-owner%2540yahoogroups.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Just as a reminder, there is apollocoders which is out of date naming-wise but was intended for AIR coding questions. You'd want to decide if you want a specialized Flex list for AIR-related questions. I would be concerned that this categorization would often lead to folks not knowing which list to mail to and they would end up cross-posting. You'd probably want a community list too right? For announcements of projects and whatnot? Otherwise you're guaranteed for cross-posting. Matt On 6/16/08 8:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:mchotin%40adobe.commailto:mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new! lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.commailto:bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year ago and needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+ messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+ minutes that day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people in the company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran developers I know either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly diminishing the quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new developers and looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time. Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group for all of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being forced out. I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new user groups I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more systematic way. I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your convenience). Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/ Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101%2540yahoogroups.commailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com%20mailto:flex101%2540yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com mailto:flex101%2540yahoogroups.commailto:flex101%40yahoogroups.com%20mailto:flex101%2540yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.commailto:flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
Drop actionscriptcoders and rename enterprise to RPC (or FlexRemoting or something), and I'm in. 95% of funky flex question are actionscript questions - unless it's an advanced actionscript list for things like VM internals stuff, in which case case perhaps it just needs a name change. Everybody likes to think what they're doing is enterprise. What we're doing definitely counts (Oracle *loves* us), but we're all SOAP - we don't use LCDS at all, so if people think enterprise is mainly for LCDS stuff we're going to get confusion. Didn't know about ApolloCoders, I think I'll go subscribe :) Definitely like the idea of an announce list, it could be moderated or you could subscribe to it as a daily / weekly digest. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Existing - FlexCoders - FlexComponents - ApolloCoders - FlexJobs New - EnterpriseFlex - FlexUIDesign - FlexAnnouncements - ActionscriptCoders ? --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. 101 Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already handling this? 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting? Is is to show off new ideas or syntax questions. 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : ) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ? 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Josh McDonald dznuts@ wrote: That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole. It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?) meta-list that shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could read the all list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if that's feasible. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@ wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists are created. Matt On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@bjorn.mailinglists%40gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists. I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types. Flexcoders has become to over-bloated.. I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in. Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the list. Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com mailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.commailto: flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com , Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Dear All, Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not growing and dropping members as fast as it gets them. I believe this group has overgrown
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
I like it :) FlexCodersBestPractices could be a very useful forum. Although there might be some crossover between UserExperience and the existing FlexComponents list? Now, how do we go about some sort of process to see what kind of support there is on the list? Also, if we don't have the support of the Adobe cats that post here, the idea is definitely dead in the water. They're a *big* help and have the kind of inside information that takes the rest of us quite a while to replicate :) -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - FlexCodersAnnouncements - FlexCodersRemoteServices - FlexCodersUserExperience - FlexCodersBestPractices --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Josh McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drop actionscriptcoders and rename enterprise to RPC (or FlexRemoting or something), and I'm in. 95% of funky flex question are actionscript questions - unless it's an advanced actionscript list for things like VM internals stuff, in which case case perhaps it just needs a name change. Everybody likes to think what they're doing is enterprise. What we're doing definitely counts (Oracle *loves* us), but we're all SOAP - we don't use LCDS at all, so if people think enterprise is mainly for LCDS stuff we're going to get confusion. Didn't know about ApolloCoders, I think I'll go subscribe :) Definitely like the idea of an announce list, it could be moderated or you could subscribe to it as a daily / weekly digest. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Existing - FlexCoders - FlexComponents - ApolloCoders - FlexJobs New - EnterpriseFlex - FlexUIDesign - FlexAnnouncements - ActionscriptCoders ? --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.mailinglists@ wrote: 1. 101 Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already handling this? 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting? Is is to show off new ideas or syntax questions. 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : ) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ? 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Josh McDonald dznuts@ wrote: That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole. It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?) meta-list that shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could read the all list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if that's feasible. -Josh On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky anatole.tartakovsky@ wrote: Matt, Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be: 1. 101 2. Coding (AS3/MXML) 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin) 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there Thank you Anatole Tartakovsky Farata Systems On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@ wrote:t Practices/Frameworks I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5 absolute max. On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, Matt Chotin mchotin@mchotin%40adobe.com wrote: Hey guys, If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle
