Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-20 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Thank you for the honesty, Tim.
>>This list, and the Macromedia based essence of theme for Flex that has
been a huge success, doesn't care about [enterprise developers like]you or
me<<
I wonder how you got that impression. Are there many people that feel that
way?

Flex has enterprise side to it and is promoted as enterprise grade tool. I
do believe that Adobe targets that market as there are millions of java
developers that are looking for new technologies to move into - with a
majority of them in enterprise field. How they perceive the product and
support does affect you and me in (hopefully) long run.

Anyway, enterpriseflex group is created, anyone is welcome to join. I will
post formal invitation with list of the topics it will cover as soon as all
facets are ready and tested

Thank you,
Anatole Tartakovsky



Thank you
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:40 AM, Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I'll tell you honestly Anatole, I've been an enterprise developer for
> 25 years.  From EDLIN to Flex, I've seen it; so please don't propose that
> you have some un-known insight to software development.  This list, and the
> Macromedia based essence of theme for Flex that has been a huge success,
> doesn't care about you or me.  I appreciate that you have been able to
> benefit from Flex's success; but I question the motive to try and tell Adobe
> how to run their business.  If you like the product, cool.  If you don't,
> step off.
>
> -TH
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Anatole Tartakovsky"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I guess, the majority of the group tends to like the way things are now.
> > That is hardly surprising given initial posting that most people who do
> not
> > like the current solution would unsubscribe.
> > It also came to the light that enterprise developers have some
> restrictions
> > in selection of the client (email) software and problems with getting too
> > many messages. It is also obvious ( by monitoring the messages for few
> month
> > back) that the questions on "enterprise" topics are rarely followed and
> > some design questions are answered on a different level then the original
> > question. As a result, we see fewer of such messages
> > lately. Potentially, enterprise part of Flex business might not be
> getting
> > fare share of attention.
> >
> > So, here is the question - if we create separate list to see the need for
> > enterprise list - would Adobe be willing to include links to it in the
> usual
> > places/promote it/assign moderators?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Anatole Tartakovsky
> > Farata Systems
>  > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:01 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote:
> > >
> > > Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience
> > > levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a
> > > response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to
> > > find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I
> > > can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so
> > > many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me
> > > threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions,
> > > or etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things
> (I
> > > like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech
> on all
> > > levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this,
> if
> > > it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc.
> anyways.
> > > If we split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever
> be
> > > happy on all levels.
> > >
> > > So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just
> > > subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i
> want
> > > (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives
> those
> > > who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort
> and
> > > have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a
> more
> > > targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over
> > > split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the magic number seems to be) and
> go for
> > > it.
> > >
> > > It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point)
> seems
> > > to offer more flexibility.
> > >
> > > Not even $0.02.. but
> > >
> > > dnk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> 
>


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-20 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Friday 20 Jun 2008, David Pariente wrote:
> if u finally decide to do something about this, do it in a new thread,
> cause im sotopping reading this one / deleting it as fast as i see it :)


If people want to create more 'focused' groups, go right ahead. 
No one will stop you.

In the mean time, it looks like we will get some improvements to the way this 
list works, which is progress enough to me.

-- 
Tom Chiverton



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-20 Thread David Pariente
if u finally decide to do something about this, do it in a new thread, cause im 
sotopping reading this one / deleting it as fast as i see it :)

i dont wanna miss an important decision about it, just have no time to follow 
the discussion ;)


- Mensaje original 
De: Paul Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Para: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 20 de junio, 2008 13:50:08
Asunto: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


I have to admit to not reading all the 132 messages so far written on 
this thread, but my 2p...

On 20 Jun 2008, at 10:15, Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote:
>> Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO.
> Exactly. I've had the exact same discussion on other lists (when 
> moving to
> Google Groups, for instance).

Personally I feel this list would be a lot more reader-friendly if 
'mailing list etiquette' was used more widely by contributors. In 
particular getting away from 'top posting' and unnecessary quoting 
would reduce traffic and time wasted by readers trying to find the new 
comment within the noise of repeated quotation. Some people are 
already doing this here and I'd argue their responses are much easier 
to follow.

I also tend to find it a lot easier to read as plain text rather than 
as html text with all the extra Yahoo noise. The settings are easy to 
change in your Yahoo account.

On 19 Jun 2008, at 09:40, Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, enjoy_jake wrote:
>> Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time
>> to abandon flexcoders in favor of a more customized solution for
>> solving our problems.
> This is not a good plan. Web based forums ... are simply not as easy 
> to use as a mailing list.
> Mailing lists work...

+1. I too find Web based forums a complete pain to use. Mailing list 
although basic, does a much better job.

-- 
Paul
creative-cognition Ltd
http://www.creative -cognition. co.uk/
http:/blog.creacog



  __ 
Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-20 Thread Paul Evans
I have to admit to not reading all the 132 messages so far written on  
this thread, but my 2p...

On 20 Jun 2008, at 10:15, Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote:
>> Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO.
> Exactly. I've had the exact same discussion on other lists (when  
> moving to
> Google Groups, for instance).

Personally I feel this list would be a lot more reader-friendly if  
'mailing list etiquette' was used more widely by contributors. In  
particular getting away from 'top posting' and unnecessary quoting  
would reduce traffic and time wasted by readers trying to find the new  
comment within the noise of repeated quotation. Some people are  
already doing this here and I'd argue their responses are much easier  
to follow.

I also tend to find it a lot easier to read as plain text rather than  
as html text with all the extra Yahoo noise. The settings are easy to  
change in your Yahoo account.

On 19 Jun 2008, at 09:40, Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, enjoy_jake wrote:
>> Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time
>> to abandon flexcoders in favor of a more customized solution for
>> solving our problems.
> This is not a good plan. Web based forums ... are simply not as easy  
> to use as a mailing list.
> Mailing lists work...

+1. I too find Web based forums a complete pain to use. Mailing list  
although basic, does a much better job.

-- 
Paul
creative-cognition Ltd
http://www.creative-cognition.co.uk/
http:/blog.creacog


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-20 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote:
> Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO. 

Exactly. I've had the exact same discussion on other lists (when moving to 
Google Groups, for instance).

-- 
Tom Chiverton



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-20 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Thursday 19 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote:
> (not that I'm in favour of splitting, I'm not) -- but if the lists have
> not yet been created, and existing messages stay in the archive, what's
> to break? We're talking about a branching, not a migration, right?

When someone tries to sign up, it'll moan at them, because we'll have closed 
the list down and kicked all the members off.

-- 
Tom Chiverton



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Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and 
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Matt Chotin
Well, given that we set up the javaflexcoders list and the phpflexcoders list 
and they get some traffic but not a lot, I don't know how actively we'll 
promote.  As far as assigning moderators, I don't want to take that on.  Set up 
the list, run it for a while, see if it takes.  In the meantime, as I've said 
all along, I'm going to continue working with the team at Adobe as we try to 
move our forum infrastructure to a much better place.  Long term I think having 
that system which can operate with multiple sections, multiple email addresses, 
nntp support, visibility into what's been answered and what hasn't, user 
ratings, etc is the right thing to do and I'd rather invest my energy towards 
that.

I'm not going to do anything to prevent anyone from setting up whatever list 
they want.  Folks do it all the time, there's a Flex list on houseoffusion and 
that attracts some CF folks.  There is a Google list that still gets a few 
posts a month.  Those Java and PHP lists that I mentioned, or the weborb stuff 
that you've mentioned.  Our team was needed to get flexcoders off the ground, 
but I think we're far enough along that guaranteed Adobe presence is not a 
requirement for a successful list.

Matt


On 6/19/08 7:52 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




I guess, the majority of the group tends to like the way things are now. That 
is hardly surprising given initial posting that most people who do not like the 
current solution would unsubscribe.
It also came to the light that enterprise developers have some restrictions in 
selection of the client (email) software and problems with getting too many 
messages. It is also obvious ( by monitoring the messages for few month back) 
that the questions on  "enterprise" topics are rarely followed and some design 
questions are answered on a different level then the original question. As a 
result, we see fewer of such messages lately. Potentially, enterprise part of 
Flex business might not be getting fare share of attention.

So, here is the question - if we create separate list to see the need for 
enterprise list - would Adobe be willing to include links to it in the usual 
places/promote it/assign moderators?

Sincerely,
Anatole Tartakovsky
Farata Systems
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:01 PM, dnk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote:

Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience
levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a
response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to
find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I
can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so
many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me
threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions,
or etc.

I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things (I like 
to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech on all 
levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this, if it 
stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc. anyways. If we 
split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever be happy on 
all levels.

So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just subscribe 
to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i want (probably 
all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives those who wish for 
more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort and have the exact 
same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a more targeted inbox the 
ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over split. Pick your 5-10 (or 
what ever the magic number seems to be) and go for it.

It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point) seems to 
offer more flexibility.

Not even $0.02.. but

dnk










Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
I guess, the majority of the group tends to like the way things are now.
That is hardly surprising given initial posting that most people who do not
like the current solution would unsubscribe.
It also came to the light that enterprise developers have some restrictions
in selection of the client (email) software and problems with getting too
many messages. It is also obvious ( by monitoring the messages for few month
back) that the questions on  "enterprise" topics are rarely followed and
some design questions are answered on a different level then the original
question. As a result, we see fewer of such messages
lately. Potentially, enterprise part of Flex business might not be getting
fare share of attention.

So, here is the question - if we create separate list to see the need for
enterprise list - would Adobe be willing to include links to it in the usual
places/promote it/assign moderators?

Sincerely,
Anatole Tartakovsky
Farata Systems
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:01 PM, dnk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>  On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote:
>
> Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience
> levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a
> response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to
> find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I
> can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so
> many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me
> threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions,
> or etc.
>
>
> I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things (I
> like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the tech on all
> levels). However with a little thought about this, the reality is this, if
> it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage or delete, etc. anyways.
> If we split, the same applies in some form or another. no one will ever be
> happy on all levels.
>
> So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just
> subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how i want
> (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it gives those
> who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either way I can sort and
> have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives those who want a more
> targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only suggestion is to not over
> split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the magic number seems to be) and go for
> it.
>
> It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point) seems
> to offer more flexibility.
>
> Not even $0.02.. but
>
> dnk
>
>
>
> 
>


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread dnk


On 19-Jun-08, at 2:03 PM, brucewhealton wrote:


Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience
levels. I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a
response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to
find out if someone responded. I have to look and look to see if I
can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so
many similar, though different threads. I'd like a feature to show me
threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions,
or etc.


I tend to be one that prefers one list, and monitoring all things  
(I like to see what is out there and what else is going on with the  
tech on all levels). However with a little thought about this, the  
reality is this, if it stays as one, most are creating rules to manage  
or delete, etc. anyways. If we split, the same applies in some form or  
another. no one will ever be happy on all levels.


So if the powers that be decide to split, go for it I will just  
subscribe to all the relevant ones I wish to monitor and organize how  
i want (probably all dumped into a flex folder as it is now). But it  
gives those who wish for more relevance more power to do so. Either  
way I can sort and have the exact same info in my inbox. It just gives  
those who want a more targeted inbox the ability to do so. My only  
suggestion is to not over split. Pick your 5-10 (or what ever the  
magic number seems to be) and go for it.


It is all a matter or preference, but one way (to split to a point)  
seems to offer more flexibility.


Not even $0.02.. but

dnk





Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Joseph Balderson
brucewhealton wrote:
> Maybe we need groups for different users at different experience
> levels.  I think this list is so big that it is hard to find a
> response or thread, especially when one posts a question and wants to
> find out if someone responded.  I have to look and look to see if I
> can find that thread anywhere, and it gets confusing when one sees so
> many similar, though different threads.  I'd like a feature to show me
> threads that include messages where I've posted comments, questions,
> or etc.  

Again this is a mail client problem, not a list problem IMO. I have 
Thunderbird filters set so that all posts I make are tagged as 
"responded", colour-coded and filed in my [flexcoders] folder. Likewise 
I can tag certain threads as "watched" if I wish (though it's not 
sophisticaed enough to give me an alert -- waiting for TB3.0 :), so I 
can find them later. Similar things can be done with Googlemail.

> 
> If there was a chat room that would be great too.  Again, a grouping
> by experience level might be good.  Many projects or applications do
> have lists/groups for newbies and such, as well as more experienced
> folks - who will sometimes discuss things that have no meaning yet to
> the new user of Flex.
> Thanks,
> Bruce
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Sherif Abdou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Ya i wrote the same thing like yesterday but Mr. Chotin said that is
> what the purpose of the Flexdev network on  adobe. I was thinking
> along the line of just creating a Flex/AIr/Coldfusion app and open
> sourcing it too. Combine Adobe Feeds, mailing list, chat and
> everything but i think the FlexDev on adobe does a good job. 
>>
>> - Original Message 
>> From: Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:52:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller,
> focused groups
>>
>> I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We
> could have a "lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex Components",
> "DataGrid", "BlazeDS"), and also allow users to create their own chat
> rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help
> when there is the possibility of immediate feedback
>>
>> - Original Message 
>> From: Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller,
> focused groups
>>
>> The first time I sent this, it only went to flexcoders-owner@
> yahoogroups. com. I apologize to those who received it twice.
>> Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's
> time to create a more customized solution for solving our problems.
> I'd be happy to put something together (and even host it on my server)
> if you guys think it would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a
> mailing list, phpBB, and digg would be nice. We could have a large
> number of tags the author could choose from, some sort of rating
> system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality.
>> I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a
> clean and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate.
>> Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to
> offer some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to
> work on it.
>> Jake Hawkes
>>
>>
>> - Original Message 
>> From: Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM
>> Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
> groups
>>
>>
>> Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight.
>>
>> -TH
>>
>> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson  wrote:
>>> From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging
>>> into the "advanced" category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many
>> years
>>> but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the
>> list.
>>> To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I
>>> decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird
>>> filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to
>> review
>>> the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every
>> day
>>> with the MXNA.
>>>
>>> So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list sim

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Enjoy Jake
One-on-one chats could be saved and made searchable. But it seems like no one 
liked my idea anyway, so I won't bother with it.


- Original Message 
From: Tracy Spratt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:45:29 AM
Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


Also, I prefer my donated time help the entire
community.  I would not participate in one-on-one chat.  I like the maillist.
Tracy
 


 
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com ] On Behalf 
Of Paul Andrews
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:34
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re:
Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
 
Shudder. If it doesn't come through my mailbox, it doesn't
happen.
- Original Message - 
From:Enjoy Jake 
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com 
Sent:Thursday, June 19,
2008 12:52 AM
Subject:Re: [flexcoders]
Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups
 
I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could
have a "lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex
Components", "DataGrid", "BlazeDS"), and also allow
users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier
to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate feedback


  

RE: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Tracy Spratt
Also, I prefer my donated time help the entire community.  I would not
participate in one-on-one chat.  I like the maillist.

Tracy

 



From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Andrews
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:34 AM
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
groups

 

Shudder. If it doesn't come through my mailbox, it doesn't happen.

- Original Message - 

From: Enjoy Jake <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  

To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com>  

Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:52 AM

Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller,
focused groups

 

I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We
could have a "lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex Components",
"DataGrid", "BlazeDS"), and also allow users to create their own chat
rooms (for one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when
there is the possibility of immediate feedback

 



Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Douglas Knudsen
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:54 AM, Tom Chiverton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
>> The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
>> email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
>> argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
>> customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
>> supports it.
>
> 
> Why should we risk ruining the list for everyone, because some people have
> poor client software ? There may be real, genuine reasons why someone is
> stuck with Outlook Express and can't access GMail, but that must be a *real*
> low number of people.
> 

There are several companies blocking access to Gmail and probably
yahoo mail even.  Heck, my previous employer blocked access to the
yahoo interface for this list.  Ironically, these companies are
probably ones that have developers doing enterprise work that would
understand what a enterprise-flexcoders list is about with out crying
about how to define it.  In my own opinion, adding multiple lists is a
good thing because it simply is.  Take CF-Talk,CF-Community,CF-Jobs,
and CF-Server as examples.   CF-Community is for non tech talk
bringing the community of CF folks together, hey not everyone goes a
twittering, flittering, facebooking, and such.  I could care less
about email client use, who uses which, and if a particular client is
bad or good or makes you beer or bangers.  I don't think this list is
stagnant, this thread could provide proof of that, but its one thread
lingering amongst only a handful. The Flex technology touches a vast
array of other technologies and niches.  You think HTML has only a
single htmlcoders list?  What about Flash itself? Curious, how many
comp.flash.* news groups are there?  Either way, new lists are going
to be added regardless of blessings from on high or low as the
community grows ever bigger, eh?

DK
>
>> list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
>> getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
>> list?
>
> Moderating 'the whole list' right now isn't a chore.
>
>> Would it get up in your inbox?
>
> No, I have a nice mail client.
>
>> What are the chances that a single
>> mail  would get missed by specialist?
>
> About the same as if the list were split, at a first past guess.
> A 'specialist' would have to be subscribed to all the lists anyway.
>
>> What about the quality of the answer?
>
> Splitting the lists wont change the level of participation. If anything it
> raises the barrier to entry.
>
>> Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic?
>
> 
> My mail client happily threads and sorts, creating 'topics' on the fly for me.
>
>> Am I the only one who
>> thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
>> simplicity?
>
> FlexCoders is not a reference resource.
>
>> There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items.
>
> You need better search.
>
>> sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
>> magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
>
> My mail client indexes all mail into a local database as it arrives.
> Search is very very quick.
> GMail is probably even better.
>
>> The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
>> enforce tagging of the questions.
>
> This is a creating a huge barrier to entry. I don't think we should be doing
> that.
>
>> That in turn means next generation of
>> email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of
>> email.
>
> What ?!? Why on earth would that be better ? RSS doesn't even support threaded
> comments !
>
>> We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the
>> email system.
>
> Or your client.
>
> --
> Tom Chiverton
>
> 
>
> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
>
> Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and 
> Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at 
> Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list 
> of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any 
> reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of 
> Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority.
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY
>
> This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may 
> be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must 
> not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor 
> inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence 
> or contents.  If you have received this email in error please delete it and 
> notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500.
>
> For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.
>
> 
>
> --
> F

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Joseph Balderson
(not that I'm in favour of splitting, I'm not) -- but if the lists have 
not yet been created, and existing messages stay in the archive, what's 
to break? We're talking about a branching, not a migration, right?
___

Joseph Balderson, Developer | http://joeflash.ca | 705-466-6345


Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote:
>> New (proposed)
> 
> The trouble with creating a totally new set of names is all the links 
> scattered all over the internet would break.
> 



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Paul Andrews
Shudder. If it doesn't come through my mailbox, it doesn't happen.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Enjoy Jake 
  To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:52 AM
  Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


  I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a 
"lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex Components", "DataGrid", "BlazeDS"), 
and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's 
a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate 
feedback

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Joseph Balderson wrote:
> New (proposed)

The trouble with creating a totally new set of names is all the links 
scattered all over the internet would break.

-- 
Tom Chiverton



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of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference 
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
> The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
> email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
> argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
> customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
> supports it.


Why should we risk ruining the list for everyone, because some people have 
poor client software ? There may be real, genuine reasons why someone is 
stuck with Outlook Express and can't access GMail, but that must be a *real* 
low number of people.


> list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
> getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
> list? 

Moderating 'the whole list' right now isn't a chore.

> Would it get up in your inbox?

No, I have a nice mail client.

> What are the chances that a single  
> mail  would get missed by specialist? 

About the same as if the list were split, at a first past guess. 
A 'specialist' would have to be subscribed to all the lists anyway.

> What about the quality of the answer? 

Splitting the lists wont change the level of participation. If anything it 
raises the barrier to entry.

> Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic?

 
My mail client happily threads and sorts, creating 'topics' on the fly for me.

> Am I the only one who 
> thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
> simplicity?

FlexCoders is not a reference resource.

> There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. 

You need better search.

> sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
> magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.

My mail client indexes all mail into a local database as it arrives. 
Search is very very quick.
GMail is probably even better.

> The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
> enforce tagging of the questions.

This is a creating a huge barrier to entry. I don't think we should be doing 
that.

> That in turn means next generation of 
> email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of
> email. 

What ?!? Why on earth would that be better ? RSS doesn't even support threaded 
comments !

> We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the 
> email system. 

Or your client.

-- 
Tom Chiverton



This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.

Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and 
Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at 
Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list 
of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference 
to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  
Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority.

CONFIDENTIALITY

This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be 
confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not 
read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform 
any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or 
contents.  If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify 
Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500.

For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-19 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, enjoy_jake wrote:
> Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time
> to abandon flexcoders in favor of a more customized solution for
> solving our problems.

> I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean
> and efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate.

This is not a good plan. Web based forums (even if Flex based, I'm not sure 
why you're advocating any particular implementation detail at the planing 
state anyway) are simply not as easy to use as a mailing list.
Mailing lists work, and as you say...

> Or maybe we should just bend Yahoo Groups to our will. 

... that would be better. You'll never get us all to move to a 
different platform.

-- 
Tom Chiverton



This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.

Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and 
Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at 
Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list 
of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference 
to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  
Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority.

CONFIDENTIALITY

This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be 
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Sherif Abdou
Ya i wrote the same thing like yesterday but Mr. Chotin said that is what the 
purpose of the Flexdev network on  adobe. I was thinking along the line of just 
creating a Flex/AIr/Coldfusion app and open sourcing it too. Combine Adobe 
Feeds, mailing list, chat and everything but i think the FlexDev on adobe does 
a good job. 


- Original Message 
From: Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:52:55 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a 
"lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex Components", "DataGrid", "BlazeDS"), 
and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's 
a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate 
feedback


- Original Message 
From: Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


The first time I sent this, it only went to flexcoders-owner@ yahoogroups. com. 
I apologize to those who received it twice.

Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create 
a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put 
something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would 
be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would 
be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, 
some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality.

I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and 
efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate.

Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some 
input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it.

Jake Hawkes


- Original Message 
From: Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM
Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups



Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight.

-TH

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging
> into the "advanced" category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many
years
> but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the
list.
>
> To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I
> decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird
> filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to
review
> the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every
day
> with the MXNA.
>
> So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things
> more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people
> outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53
> PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for
> frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to
> divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which
> would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to
> abandonment by regular users on all lists.
>
> A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions
> and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent
> contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our
> numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list
> participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing
it
> -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO.
>
>
> A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most
> commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision
> is on the split.
>
> But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in
the
> signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who
don't
> use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know
> what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client
and
> a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the
> emails is pointless.
>
> In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help
> many with list post management, and provide this list the "boost" it
> needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and
my
> recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some
"post
> management strategies," s

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Josh McDonald
I've been waiting for somebody to point that out Doug :)

-Josh

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'd just like to point out that we've just had a 108-message thread
> among 20 different Flex developers in 2 days. Somehow among the
> stagnation and overwhelming traffic we've all had a fantastic
> discussion :) I think this thread is an argument that this list is
> alive and very healthy.
>
> Doug
>


-- 
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

:: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
:: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Josh McDonald
I'm all for another interactive "flex developers support" website, but when
it comes to my in-gmail-everything's-smooth, google searchable mailing list,
call me Charlton Heston: "From my cold, dead hands"...

-Josh

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could
> have a "lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex Components", "DataGrid",
> "BlazeDS"), and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for
> one-on-one help). It's a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the
> possibility of immediate feedback
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
> groups
>
>  The first time I sent this, it only went to [EMAIL PROTECTED] com. I 
> apologize to those who received it twice.
>
> Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to
> create a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to
> put something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it
> would be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and
> digg would be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could
> choose from, some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use
> search functionality.
>
> I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and
> efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate.
>
> Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer
> some input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it.
>
> Jake Hawkes
>

-- 
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

:: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
:: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Enjoy Jake
I forgot to mention the idea of including chat rooms as well. We could have a 
"lobby", a few breakout rooms (eg: "Flex Components", "DataGrid", "BlazeDS"), 
and also allow users to create their own chat rooms (for one-on-one help). It's 
a lot easier to give/receive help when there is the possibility of immediate 
feedback


- Original Message 
From: Enjoy Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:56:16 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


The first time I sent this, it only went to flexcoders-owner@ yahoogroups. com. 
I apologize to those who received it twice.

Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create 
a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put 
something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would 
be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would 
be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, 
some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality.

I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and 
efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate.

Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some 
input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it.

Jake Hawkes


- Original Message 
From: Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM
Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups



Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight.

-TH

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging
> into the "advanced" category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many
years
> but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the
list.
>
> To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I
> decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird
> filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to
review
> the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every
day
> with the MXNA.
>
> So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things
> more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people
> outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53
> PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for
> frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to
> divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which
> would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to
> abandonment by regular users on all lists.
>
> A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions
> and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent
> contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our
> numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list
> participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing
it
> -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO.
>
>
> A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most
> commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision
> is on the split.
>
> But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in
the
> signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who
don't
> use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know
> what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client
and
> a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the
> emails is pointless.
>
> In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help
> many with list post management, and provide this list the "boost" it
> needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and
my
> recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some
"post
> management strategies," such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding
to
> help users manage the flow.
>
> And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with
> some text like "You have not posted in ___ months..." or "You have now
> unsubscribed. .." followed by "please help us make flexcoders a better
> community experience by telling us why you have _"
>
> This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data
> collection method than an email personally send from a moderator,
> esp

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Enjoy Jake
The first time I sent this, it only went to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I apologize to 
those who received it twice.

Maybe a mailing list like this isn't the best choice. Maybe it's time to create 
a more customized solution for solving our problems. I'd be happy to put 
something together (and even host it on my server) if you guys think it would 
be useful. I'm thinking a cross between a mailing list, phpBB, and digg would 
be nice. We could have a large number of tags the author could choose from, 
some sort of rating system for solutions, and easy-to-use search functionality.

I'm thinking a Flex front-end with BlazeDS to communicate with a clean and 
efficient Java back-end that's using Hibernate.

Again, if you think this would be useful and people are willing to offer some 
input as to what functionality we need, I'd be happy to work on it.

Jake Hawkes


- Original Message 
From: Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:46:45 PM
Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups



Very well put Joseph; quite impressive prose and insight.

-TH

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, Joseph Balderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging
> into the "advanced" category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many
years
> but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the
list.
>
> To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I
> decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird
> filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to
review
> the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every
day
> with the MXNA.
>
> So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things
> more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people
> outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53
> PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for
> frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to
> divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which
> would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to
> abandonment by regular users on all lists.
>
> A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions
> and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent
> contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our
> numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list
> participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing
it
> -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO.
>
>
> A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most
> commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision
> is on the split.
>
> But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in
the
> signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who
don't
> use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know
> what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client
and
> a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the
> emails is pointless.
>
> In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help
> many with list post management, and provide this list the "boost" it
> needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and
my
> recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some
"post
> management strategies," such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding
to
> help users manage the flow.
>
> And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with
> some text like "You have not posted in ___ months..." or "You have now
> unsubscribed. .." followed by "please help us make flexcoders a better
> community experience by telling us why you have _"
>
> This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data
> collection method than an email personally send from a moderator,
> especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention
as
> singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate
the
> manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscr ibed
accounts.
>
> If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number
small
> just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into
just
> three lists:
> flexcoders
> flexnewbie
> flexenterprise
>
> Even though the definitions are a little fuzzy, I think flexnewbie
could
> be defined as not the difficulty of the question but the experience
the
> user perceives themselves to be at, so there may very well be advanced
> and newbie questions on both lists, and that's okay. Likewise there
will
> probably be some crossover into the flexenterprise list. I think it's
> fair to say that questions involving a substantial amount of
"Java/data
> services/large teams/enterprise workflows" would 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Doug McCune
I'd just like to point out that we've just had a 108-message thread
among 20 different Flex developers in 2 days. Somehow among the
stagnation and overwhelming traffic we've all had a fantastic
discussion :) I think this thread is an argument that this list is
alive and very healthy.

Doug

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Joseph Balderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging
> into the "advanced" category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years
> but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list.
>
> To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I
> decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird
> filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review
> the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day
> with the MXNA.
>
> So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things
> more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people
> outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53
> PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for
> frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to
> divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which
> would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to
> abandonment by regular users on all lists.
>
> A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions
> and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent
> contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our
> numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list
> participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it
> -- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO.
>
>
> A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most
> commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision
> is on the split.
>
> But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the
> signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't
> use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know
> what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and
> a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the
> emails is pointless.
>
> In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help
> many with list post management, and provide this list the "boost" it
> needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my
> recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some "post
> management strategies," such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to
> help users manage the flow.
>
> And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with
> some text like "You have not posted in ___ months..." or "You have now
> unsubscribed..." followed by "please help us make flexcoders a better
> community experience by telling us why you have _"
>
> This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data
> collection method than an email personally send from a moderator,
> especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention as
> singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate the
> manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscribed accounts.
>
> If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number small
> just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into just
> three lists:
> flexcoders
> flexnewbie
> flexenterprise
>
> Even though the definitions are a little fuzzy, I think flexnewbie could
> be defined as not the difficulty of the question but the experience the
> user perceives themselves to be at, so there may very well be advanced
> and newbie questions on both lists, and that's okay. Likewise there will
> probably be some crossover into the flexenterprise list. I think it's
> fair to say that questions involving a substantial amount of "Java/data
> services/large teams/enterprise workflows" would qualify, without
> requiring the definition of "enterprise" be defined with scientific
> precision to participate. Too narrow a definition is a recipe for
> failure, any new the list needs to be defined without being too
> exclusive IMO.
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
> --
> ___
>
> Joseph Balderson | http://joeflash.ca
> Flex & Flash Platform Developer | Abobe Certified Developer & Trainer
> Author, Professional Flex 3 (coming Winter 2008)
> Staff Writer, Community MX | http://communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=4674
>
>
>
> Tom Chiverton wrote:
>> On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Matt Chotin wrote:
>>> Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
>>
>> Aye.
>>
>>> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
>>> the community.
>>
>> This would be a huge bonus, esp

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Joseph Balderson
 From the perspective of someone who in his opinion is only just edging 
into the "advanced" category in Flex, I've been a lurker for many years 
but only just now gradually changing to a more active status on the list.

To me, the volume of emails to the list was intimidating, until I 
decided to manage my lists a little better through Thunderbird 
filtering, and be disciplined about the time I take every day to review 
the list, so it doesn't impact my productivity, much like I do every day 
with the MXNA.

So I'm not convinced that splitting up the list simply to make things 
more efficient and the volume less intimidating for some people 
outweighs the potential risks. I agree with Tim Hoff (16/06/2008 10:53 
PM) -- my concern is less for new users and lurkers than it is for 
frequent posters who are the lifeblood of this community, having to 
divide their precious attention from one list to however-many, which 
would dilute the quality of all lists, and could ultimately lead to 
abandonment by regular users on all lists.

A community such as this must be a delicate balance between questions 
and answers, new users and advanced users, lurkers and frequent 
contributors. My concern is that for many, the formula works, our 
numbers are steady, and there is still a huge number of A-list 
participation. In attempting to improve the list, we could be killing it 
-- so we need to be very sure of our data before proceeding IMO.


A FAQ would be very welcome, as would Doug's recommendation for most 
commonly asked threads, as would tags, regardless of what the decision 
is on the split.

But I would request that FAQ links and tag keywords be indicated in the 
signature of each email from the list, so that the many users who don't 
use the yahoo list's web interface can easily find the info and know 
what tags to use without having to switch between their mail client and 
a browser, otherwise having a FAQ and anything else apart from the 
emails is pointless.

In fact, just having a FAQ and encouraging the use of tags could help 
many with list post management, and provide this list the "boost" it 
needs without taking drastic measures. This would be my request, and my 
recommendation. In addition, we could even include in the FAQ some "post 
management strategies," such as filtering, tagging and colour-coding to 
help users manage the flow.

And I would suggest an automated email generated by an algorithm with 
some text like "You have not posted in ___ months..." or "You have now 
unsubscribed..." followed by "please help us make flexcoders a better 
community experience by telling us why you have _"

This would be a far less intrusive and intimidating follow up and data 
collection method than an email personally send from a moderator, 
especially one from Adobe. Some people might perceive such attention as 
singling them out, and using an autogenerated email would eliminate the 
manpower necessary to collect data on infrequent/unsubscribed accounts.

If we do decide to split the list at all, I would keep the number small 
just to make sure. My recommendation would be to split things into just 
three lists:
flexcoders
flexnewbie
flexenterprise

Even though the definitions are a little fuzzy, I think flexnewbie could 
be defined as not the difficulty of the question but the experience the 
user perceives themselves to be at, so there may very well be advanced 
and newbie questions on both lists, and that's okay. Likewise there will 
probably be some crossover into the flexenterprise list. I think it's 
fair to say that questions involving a substantial amount of "Java/data 
services/large teams/enterprise workflows" would qualify, without 
requiring the definition of "enterprise" be defined with scientific 
precision to participate. Too narrow a definition is a recipe for 
failure, any new the list needs to be defined without being too 
exclusive IMO.

Thanks for listening,

-- 
___

Joseph Balderson | http://joeflash.ca
Flex & Flash Platform Developer | Abobe Certified Developer & Trainer
Author, Professional Flex 3 (coming Winter 2008)
Staff Writer, Community MX | http://communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=4674



Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Matt Chotin wrote:
>> Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
> 
> Aye.
> 
>> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
>> the community.  
> 
> This would be a huge bonus, esp. given #3.
> 
>> Center.  But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the
>> opensource wiki.  We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I
>> will get them added so they can take care of it.  
> 
> Happy to be added, drop me a note if you are not aware of my adobe.com ID 
> (it's not @halliwells).
> 
>> 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject
>> something that indicates what you're talking about.  Seems reasonable. 
> ...

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Joseph Balderson
I think in dividing a list bursting at the seams, it seems, with too 
many diverse posts, that we don't forget that other list from which many 
migrated from when Flex 2/AS3 came out:Flashcoders.

Flashcoders (and the newer Flash_Tiger) serves as a wellspring of 
AS3/Flash API info, so I wonder how practical an ActionscriptCoders list 
would be. And general UI design is also covered in some extent in 
Flashcoders, since they deal with many of the same issues.

People make announcements related to open source projects all the time, 
and the rest should be for blogs, which is more a broadcast medium than 
lists, so the FlexAnnouncements list might not do so well.

How about this:

Existing
- FlashCoders
- FlashNewbie
- FlashTiger
- FlexCoders
- FlexComponents
- ApolloCoders (which would do well to change its name ;)
- FlexJobs

New (proposed)
- FlexNewbies
- FlexEnterprise

...and we see how they do before branching any more.

___

Joseph Balderson, Developer | http://joeflash.ca | 705-466-6345


Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
> Existing
> - FlexCoders
> - FlexComponents
> - ApolloCoders
> - FlexJobs
> 
> New
> - EnterpriseFlex
> - FlexUIDesign
> - FlexAnnouncements
> - ActionscriptCoders
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bjorn Schultheiss"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 1. 101
>> Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already
>> handling this?
>>
 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
>> The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting?
>> Is is to "show off" new ideas or syntax questions.
>>
 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
>> Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : )
>>
 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
>> Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ?
>>
 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks 
>> Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Josh McDonald"  wrote:
>>> That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole.
>>>
>>> It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?)
>> meta-list that
>>> shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could
> read the
>>> "all" list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good
>>> common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if
>> that's
>>> feasible.
>>>
>>> -Josh
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
>>> anatole.tartakovsky@> wrote:
>>>
   Matt,

  Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
 1. 101
 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there

 Thank you
 Anatole Tartakovsky
 Farata Systems

 On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin  wrote:t
 Practices/Frameworks

I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend
>> capping at
> 5 absolute max.
>
>
> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" >
> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do
>> for the
> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were
>> right in
> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's
>> point that
> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to
>> thrive. We'll
> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like
>> it's me
> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no
> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are
>> definitely
> lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email.
> There is a
> project going on within Adobe to improve the experience
>> drastically, and we
> definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince
>> everyone to
> come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a
>> number of
> months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will
>> continue to help
> users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever
>> new lists
> are created.
>
> Matt
>
> On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss"
>> >
> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
> I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.
>
> Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..
>
> I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.
>
> Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back
>> on the
> list.
>
> Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
>>  flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com
>> > flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > ,
>> "Anatole
> Tartakovsky"
>  wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is v

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Matt Chotin
Moderate first post is turned on for flexcoders and for flexcomponents, but I 
at least am more scanning for spam than stuff that really should be in 
flexcoders.

Matt


On 6/18/08 12:10 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




I would definetly vote to add "moderate the first post" for advanced groups 
like flexcomponents to deal with the issues Doug brought up. I believe that 
would make lists better for everyone.
Sincerely
Anatole

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Doug,
flexcomponents is not moderated in conventional sense. The name of the 
group is confusing for new users. Very few people have a sense what the group 
is for. I am more concerned that the messages that do not belong to 
flexcomponents stay there. Crossposting has to be moderated and discouraged. 
Ban them first time for some time, permanently if needed.

You can try weborb or flexjobs as examples of clearly distinct and moderated 
entries.

I am getting few emails a week from people asking me to help them to write 
"hello worlld" type application in Flex - or help them with blog or book code - 
to find that they do not know they need a server. We created this culture with 
free products and support - and there are people who would take advantage.

Regards,
Anatole

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to
flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was
cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists
(sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents,
ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a
job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or
flexcomponents, but only flexjobs).

If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22%
crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam.

Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real
results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just
thought it was interesting.

Doug


On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 > wrote:
> Hello Tom,
>
>>>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<
>
> The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
> email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
> argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
> customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
> supports it.
>
> Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2
> - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main
> list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
> getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
> list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single
> mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer?
> Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who
> thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
> simplicity?
>
> There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist
> you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
> magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
>
>>> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<
>
> There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the
> answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go.
> The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different
> forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets
> "RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
> discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
> appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest,
> giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal
> is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums
> are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.
>
> I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before
> Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
> US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across
> 20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much
> smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team
> of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their
> domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
> repetition of the questions as people could search much better.
>
> Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from the
> historical point.
>
> Now for the next cycle

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
I would definetly vote to add "moderate the first post" for advanced groups
like flexcomponents to deal with the issues Doug brought up. I believe that
would make lists better for everyone.
Sincerely
Anatole

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Doug,
> flexcomponents is not moderated in conventional sense. The name of the
> group is confusing for new users. Very few people have a sense what the
> group is for. I am more concerned that the messages that do not belong to
> flexcomponents stay there. Crossposting has to be moderated and discouraged.
> Ban them first time for some time, permanently if needed.
>
> You can try weborb or flexjobs as examples of clearly distinct and
> moderated entries.
>
> I am getting few emails a week from people asking me to help them to write
> "hello worlld" type application in Flex - or help them with blog or book
> code - to find that they do not know they need a server. We created this
> culture with free products and support - and there are people who would take
> advantage.
>
> Regards,
> Anatole
>
>   On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>>   Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to
>> flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was
>> cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists
>> (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents,
>> ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a
>> job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or
>> flexcomponents, but only flexjobs).
>>
>> If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22%
>> crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam.
>>
>> Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real
>> results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just
>> thought it was interesting.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>> > Hello Tom,
>> >
>> >>>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<
>> >
>> > The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted
>> individual
>> > email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
>> > argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
>> > customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
>> > supports it.
>> >
>> > Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents
>> are 2
>> > - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the
>> main
>> > list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
>> > getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
>> > list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single
>> > mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the
>> answer?
>> > Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one
>> who
>> > thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
>> > simplicity?
>> >
>> > There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI
>> specialist
>> > you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order
>> of
>> > magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
>> >
>> >>> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<
>> >
>> > There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive
>> the
>> > answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get
>> go.
>> > The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different
>> > forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message
>> gets
>> > "RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
>> > discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
>> > appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest,
>> > giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The
>> goal
>> > is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the
>> forums
>> > are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.
>> >
>> > I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before
>> > Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
>> > US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages
>> across
>> > 20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were
>> much
>> > smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have
>> team
>> > of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their
>> > domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
>> > repetition of the questions as people could search much better.
>> >
>> > Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from the
>> > historical point.
>> >
>> > Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Doug,
flexcomponents is not moderated in conventional sense. The name of the
group is confusing for new users. Very few people have a sense what the
group is for. I am more concerned that the messages that do not belong to
flexcomponents stay there. Crossposting has to be moderated and discouraged.
Ban them first time for some time, permanently if needed.

You can try weborb or flexjobs as examples of clearly distinct and moderated
entries.

I am getting few emails a week from people asking me to help them to write
"hello worlld" type application in Flex - or help them with blog or book
code - to find that they do not know they need a server. We created this
culture with free products and support - and there are people who would take
advantage.

Regards,
Anatole

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to
> flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was
> cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists
> (sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents,
> ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a
> job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or
> flexcomponents, but only flexjobs).
>
> If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22%
> crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam.
>
> Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real
> results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just
> thought it was interesting.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > Hello Tom,
> >
> >>>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<
> >
> > The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
> > email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
> > argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
> > customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
> > supports it.
> >
> > Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are
> 2
> > - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the
> main
> > list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
> > getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
> > list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single
> > mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the
> answer?
> > Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one
> who
> > thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
> > simplicity?
> >
> > There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI
> specialist
> > you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
> > magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
> >
> >>> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<
> >
> > There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive
> the
> > answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go.
> > The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different
> > forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets
> > "RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
> > discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
> > appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest,
> > giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The
> goal
> > is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the
> forums
> > are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.
> >
> > I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before
> > Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
> > US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages
> across
> > 20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were
> much
> > smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have
> team
> > of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their
> > domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
> > repetition of the questions as people could search much better.
> >
> > Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from the
> > historical point.
> >
> > Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists -
> the
> > answer is yes, but not now
> > The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
> > enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of
> > email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of
> email.
> > We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the
> email
> > system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Daniel Freiman
If a topic falls into multiple categories wouldn't it be logical to post to
all lists that apply.  Otherwise there might be a knowledgeable person out
there you didn't reach.  Wouldn't that be "legitimate" cross-posting?

- Daniel Freiman

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Hello Tom,
>
> >>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<
>
> The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
> email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
> argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
> customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
> supports it.
>
> Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2
> - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main
> list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
> getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
> list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single
> mail  would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer?
> Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who
> thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
> simplicity?
>
> There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist
> you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
> magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
>
> >> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<
>
> There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the
> answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go.
> The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different
> forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets
> "RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
> discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
> appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest,
> giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal
> is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums
> are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.
>
> I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before
> Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
> US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across
> 20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much
> smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team
> of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their
> domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
> repetition of the questions as people could search much better.
>
> Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from the
> historical point.
>
> *Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists -
> the answer is yes, but not now*
> The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
> enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of
> email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email.
> We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email
> system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make
> topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no
> enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Anatole Tartakovsky
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
>> > Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting.
>>
>> Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all.
>>
>> > Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often
>> > redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about
>> components.
>> > You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb.
>>
>> See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here.
>>
>> > All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w
>>
>> How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?
>>
>> --
>> Tom Chiverton
>>
>> 
>>
>> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
>>
>> Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England
>> and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address
>> is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.
>>  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any
>> reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of
>> Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority.
>>
>> CONF

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Maciek Sakrejda
I was going to propose that we add a separate list for discussions on
whether or not the list should be split up into smaller lists, but I
suppose that would come of as fatuous, and that I think discussions like
this are not important. They are. So, as just another flexcoders user,
I'll second Doug's opinion.

-- 
Maciek Sakrejda
Truviso, Inc.
http://www.truviso.com

-Original Message-
From: Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
groups
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:03:16 -0700

Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to
flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was
cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists
(sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents,
ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a
job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or
flexcomponents, but only flexjobs).

If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22%
crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam.

Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real
results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just
thought it was interesting.

Doug

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Tom,
>
>>>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<
>
> The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted
individual
> email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you
can
> argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
> customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
> supports it.
>
> Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents
are 2
> - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the
main
> list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI"
-
> getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
> list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a
single
> mail would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the
answer?
> Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only
one who
> thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and
access
> simplicity?
>
> There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI
specialist
> you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order
of
> magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
>
>>> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<
>
> There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not
receive the
> answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get
go.
> The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a
different
> forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message
gets
> "RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
> discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
> appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the
rest,
> giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The
goal
> is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the
forums
> are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.
>
> I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes,
before
> Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
> US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages
across
> 20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were
much
> smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would
have team
> of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in
their
> domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
> repetition of the questions as people could search much better.
>
> Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from
the
> historical point.
>
> Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists
- the
> answer is yes, but not now
> The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
> enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation
of
> email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of
email.
> We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the
email
> system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make
> topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there
is no
> enforceable way to sor

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Doug McCune
Out of the last 100 threads on flexcomponents 22 were cross posted to
flexcoders. Almost every one (I think with one exception) was
cross-posted by the original author immediately to both lists
(sometimes as many as 5 lists! flexcoders, flex_india, flexcomponents,
ria-india). One of them was pretty much spam, and one of them was a
job post (which shouldn't have been posted to flexcoders or
flexcomponents, but only flexjobs).

If we look at flexcomponents as a microcosm, then we have: 22%
crossposting (1% legitimate cross-posting) and 2% spam.

Yeah, this isn't a scientific survey (although I do hope to get real
results comparing the full traffic of both lists soon). But I just
thought it was interesting.

Doug

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Anatole Tartakovsky
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Tom,
>
>>>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<
>
> The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
> email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
> argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
> customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
> supports it.
>
> Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2
> - I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main
> list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
> getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
> list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single
> mail  would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer?
> Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who
> thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
> simplicity?
>
> There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist
> you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
> magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.
>
>>> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<
>
> There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the
> answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go.
> The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different
> forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets
> "RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
> discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
> appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest,
> giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal
> is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums
> are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.
>
> I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before
> Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
> US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across
> 20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much
> smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team
> of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their
> domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
> repetition of the questions as people could search much better.
>
> Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from the
> historical point.
>
> Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists - the
> answer is yes, but not now
> The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
> enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of
> email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email.
> We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email
> system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make
> topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no
> enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Anatole Tartakovsky
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
>> > Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting.
>>
>> Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all.
>>
>> > Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often
>> > redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about
>> > components.
>> > You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb.
>>
>> See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here.
>>
>> > All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w
>>
>> How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?
>>
>> --
>> Tom Chiverton
>>
>> 
>>
>> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LL

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Hello Tom,

>>How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?<<

The same way "threads by the topic" are simplier then unsorted individual
email - you read only the ones you need and fold the rest. While you can
argue that you can sort and fold messages with some client email
customization, it is not a trivial task unless your server or client
supports it.

Basically weborb is 10 messages a day, apollo is 1 and flexcomponents are 2
- I can manage that in my daily emails. Imagine that we separated the main
list in subtopics and one of them would be "dashboards, charts and BI" -
getting 5-10 messages a day - would you rather moderate that or whole
list? Would it get up in your inbox? What are the chances that a single
mail  would get missed by specialist? What about the quality of the answer?
Visibility of all questions and answers on the topic? Am I the only one who
thinks that libraries place books by category for convenience and access
simplicity?

There is nothing simple about fishing in 100+ items. Tom, as BI specialist
you know firsthand that sorting data in the beginning eliminates order of
magnitude processing later. Let us apply it to our daily life.

>> But if there are too many they'll just post to them all. <<

There are 2 types of crossposting people - the ones who did not receive the
answer in the previous forum and the ones who cross post from the get go.
The first type is OK - moderator or users can point them to a different
forum. There are periods in flexcomponents that every second message gets
"RTFM" or "go to flexcoders" responses. The second type needs some
discipline. Here is what moderators and users do - saying this is not
appropriate forum, remove the message to make life easier for the rest,
giving warning bans for a day - however harsh it sounds, it works. The goal
is to service the community - not to do somebodies homework. If the forums
are speedy and high quality the crossposting ceases.

I have seen heavily moderated product forums on compuserve (yes, before
Internet) 15 years ago. You had less then one hour response (datetime
US) time on 90+% of the questions. The volume was about 500 messages across
20 forums. "General" list was getting about 100 threads, the rest were much
smaller, The answers would be actually correct ones. Vendors would have team
of community moderators that would answer 50%+ of the questions in their
domain - with multiple moderators per topic. There was very little
repetition of the questions as people could search much better.

Things come in cycles. Please consider this as "best practices" from the
historical point.

*Now for the next cycle - can single list be better then multiple lists -
the answer is yes, but not now*
The only way I can see single as an alternative to multiple list is to
enforce tagging of the questions. That in turn means next generation of
email clients or forcing everybody to use RSS type readers instead of email.
We will get to it in a few years, its requires serious update to the email
system. Next generations of email that are to be spam proof can make
topics/tagging exchange a part of handshake protocol. Till then there is no
enforceable way to sort the messages on the senders end.


Sincerely,
Anatole Tartakovsky



On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
> > Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting.
>
> Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all.
>
> > Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often
> > redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components.
> > You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb.
>
> See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here.
>
> > All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w
>
> How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?
>
> --
> Tom Chiverton
>
> 
>
> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
>
> Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and
> Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at
> Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A
> list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any
> reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of
> Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority.
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY
>
> This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and
> may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you
> must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it
> nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its
> existence or contents.  If you have received this email in error please
> delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500.
>
> For more info

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Stephen Moretti
2008/6/18 Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, b_alen wrote:
> > Can you do folders in gmail? I thought only labels are there and you
> > still see all the emails in your inbox, even if you don't want to.
>
> Configure a filter to 'skip inbox' when it matches. I guess you already
> have a
> filter if you say you label them.
>

There's even colour coding in google mail these days.

As someone who used to be on this list, left it and just yesterday came
back, I have to say that this list is pretty intimidating.  (and I'm not
easily intimidated)  Mostly its because of the volume of traffic - how you
could meaningfully split the list up to reduce the traffic, whilst avoiding
cross-posting and dead lists, I'm not sure   Sorry that this isn't
particularly helpful. I just wanted to pass on a point of view.. :\

Stephen


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Daniel Freiman
That's exactly what I do.  In fact that's the only thing I use this email
address for.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email
> lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders,
> flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and
> flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each
> list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is
> from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else
> does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you
> could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity
> :)
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > cool.
> >
> > This discussion needs some resolving though.
> >
> > I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists.
> > With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats,
> > my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with
> > the split.
> >
> > best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment,
> > flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux,
> > announcements, etc..
> >
> > lets do it.
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/Concepts" as separate but
> >> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else
> > brought
> >> it up.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> >> > having an
> >> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> > would have
> >> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> >> > Flex
> >> >
> >> > Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
> >> >
> >> > For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
> >> > interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
> >> >
> >> > From my point of view I'm always learning.
> >> > It would be an interesting read for me.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
> >> >  40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Daniel
> >> > Freiman"  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone
> >> > against
> >> > > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
> >> > list?
> >> > >
> >> > > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
> >> > potential
> >> > > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
> >> > will be
> >> > > for. I'll take the "enterprise" example. Let's assume for a second
> >> > it has
> >> > > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with,
> > but many
> >> > > people disagree with me on that). "Enterprise" has become a
> >> > buzzword with
> >> > > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
> >> > meanings are
> >> > > vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> >> > > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
> >> > what we
> >> > > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> >> > > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
> >> > And if we
> >> > > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't
> > efficiently
> >> > > criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to
> >> > be a fine
> >> > > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> >> > >
> >> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> >> > having an
> >> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> > would have
> >> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> >> > Flex
> >> > > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
> >> > would)
> >> > > or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> >> > > stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
> >> > accessible to
> >> > > users of all skill levels)?
> >> > >
> >> > > Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't
> > separate the
> >> > > lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy
> >> > (Too
> >> > > much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).
> >> > Sometimes you
> >> > > don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
> >> > answer.
> >> > > I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
> >> > question
> >> > > and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
> >> > team..."
> >> > > If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless
> > the one
> >> > > line required going through the player or compiler code to
> > understand it
> >> > > (sorry for the overstatement).
> >>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Paul Hastings
Jeffry Houser wrote:
>  I do the same exact thing; except no color coding.  Not sure if 
> Thunderbird does that. ;)

yeah tbird's tags are color-coded and can be part of your message filters.

frankly i don't think it matters if the list is split or not as long as i'm 
able 
to mash it up into the info feed i want/need. though i'm naturally against 
having to manage more lists via yahoo, their lists engine simply hates me ;-)




Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, b_alen wrote:
> Can you do folders in gmail? I thought only labels are there and you
> still see all the emails in your inbox, even if you don't want to.

Configure a filter to 'skip inbox' when it matches. I guess you already have a 
filter if you say you label them.

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Jeffry Houser


I do the same exact thing; except no color coding.  Not sure if 
Thunderbird does that. ;)


Multiple lists [which I think is a bad idea] to me just means more 
cross posts. 


Doug McCune wrote:


Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email
lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders,
flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and
flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each
list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is
from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else
does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you
could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity
:)

Doug

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
wrote:

> cool.
>
> This discussion needs some resolving though.
>
> I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists.
> With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats,
> my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with
> the split.
>
> best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment,
> flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux,
> announcements, etc..
>
> lets do it.
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
, "Daniel Freiman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>
>> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/Concepts" as separate but
>> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else
> brought
>> it up.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
>> > having an
>> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> would have
>> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any 
connection to

>> > Flex
>> >
>> > Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
>> >
>> > For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
>> > interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
>> >
>> > From my point of view I'm always learning.
>> > It would be an interesting read for me.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
 ,

> "Daniel
>> > Freiman"  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone
>> > against
>> > > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to 
split the

>> > list?
>> > >
>> > > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
>> > potential
>> > > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
>> > will be
>> > > for. I'll take the "enterprise" example. Let's assume for a second
>> > it has
>> > > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with,
> but many
>> > > people disagree with me on that). "Enterprise" has become a
>> > buzzword with
>> > > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
>> > meanings are
>> > > vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that 
we're

>> > > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
>> > what we
>> > > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
>> > > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
>> > And if we
>> > > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't
> efficiently
>> > > criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to
>> > be a fine
>> > > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
>> > >
>> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
>> > having an
>> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> would have
>> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any 
connection to

>> > Flex
>> > > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it 
probably

>> > would)
>> > > or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
>> > > stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
>> > accessible to
>> > > users of all skill levels)?
>> > >
>> > > Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't
> separate the
>> > > lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy
>> > (Too
>> > > much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).
>> > Sometimes you
>> > > don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
>> > answer.
>> > > I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
>> > question
>> > > and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
>> > team..."
>> > > If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless
> the one
>> > > line required going through the player or compiler code to
> understand it
>> > > (sorry for the overstatement).
>> > >
>> > > - Daniel Freiman
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen 
>> >
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Josh McDonald wrote:
> That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've
> been here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow
> (sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier
> today...

I *think* it's in 'soft launch' and will get a 'hard launch' later.

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Doug McCune wrote:
> Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email
> lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? 

Nope. 
Kontact (well, Kmail) grabs all my Flex mailing list traffic into one folder. 
It could tag/color it if I wanted, but often it doesn't matter to me what 
list a post is on.

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
> Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting.

Maybe. But if there are too many they'll just post to them all.

> Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often
> redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components.
> You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb.

See what I and Matt said - I think we're on the same page here.

> All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - w

How is >1 list simpler than 1 list ?

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Matt Chotin wrote:
> Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?

Aye.

> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
> the community.  

This would be a huge bonus, esp. given #3.

> Center.  But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the
> opensource wiki.  We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I
> will get them added so they can take care of it.  

Happy to be added, drop me a note if you are not aware of my adobe.com ID 
(it's not @halliwells).

> 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject
> something that indicates what you're talking about.  Seems reasonable. 
...
> involved in the thread.  The more people follow this convention, the more
> efficient it will become.

I would say that trying to tag the subject line is probably a good idea to try 
and encourage - new users should pick it up if they stay, and it'll help 
the 'old hands' too. 
I wouldn't suggest rejecting posts that lack a tag or anything though, before 
anyone suggests that, and I'd not want the FAQ to try and define a definitive 
list either - just see what people use.

> 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation.  Rather than just scanning for
> spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if
> they meet the general criteria for asking a question.  If they don't, the
> moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has
> posting guidelines.

If the group agrees that we want to try and reduce first-post on-topic but 
pointless messages, *and the FAQ is updated* I'd have no qualms about 
pressing that big 'reject' button and sending the user a nice link.
Maybe the group/Adobe could agree a boilerplate response.

> 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom
> of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove
> the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum
> etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems.

This is good separation.
CookBook if it merits an article to itself, FAQ on .adobe.com if it's a 
few lines of code or non-code, and FAQ on Yahoo for using the group itself.

> If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things
> set up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in
> the meantime.

Again, assuming the group is OK with harsher(?) moderation, I'm happy to start 
doing it as soon as the editable FAQ is up. 
In the past I've occasionally made a post on my blog in answer to a question, 
and then pointed the thread there, and I've certainly seen others doing the 
same thing - if the group was really keen to do better(?) first-post 
moderation and didn't want to wait for the FAQ changes.

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Wednesday 18 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
> Stagnant is definetly not good for developing technology. It is also
> unlikely to be "all good". Flexcoders increased 30% in 9 month ( from 7,500
> to 9965) since August of 2007. The number of messages  for the first 5
> month increased approx 5% from the year before 

So huge growth when people switched on to Flex (around about when it stopped 
being stupidly expensive), then less ? 
Seems resonable, and nothing to do with traffic volume, which as others have 
said has been static.


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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-18 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote:
> go to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly
> has been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of

So, we've reached a core of people who stay/help out - and some number of 
people on top of that that are basically 'churn'. Static member numbers does 
not imply a static group.

-- 
Tom Chiverton



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Paul Andrews
Reading the arguments about this subject is pretty confusing.

One reason for splitting the list is so that more people will use flex 
related lists.
Another reason for splitting the lists is that there are too many posts in 
one list.
The list is apparently stagnating (!) so the splitting strategy is intended 
to revive it's fortunes even though the list has a huge number of postings 
that aren't appreciably dropping off.

In my experience flexcoders has to be the most successful list that I know.

Some are focussing on the posting stats for the list as some indicator of 
the health of the flex community. I think we should also look at external 
factors with that regard. For example, when this list was first started flex 
information wasn't so easy to come by so it was always going to be the place 
to come (once you found out about it). These days flex info is everywhere - 
magazines/books/vide/online - so it's not so neccessary to automatically 
jump to flexcoders for help. Secondly, a lot of flexcoders members are now 
rather better than they were with flex so may not need to post so often. 
Lastly flexcoders are busy people so flexcoders may not be their daily 
priority in the way it used to be. The flex world has changed.

So I think that there are a lot of things to consider. Until it was 
suggested in this thread that flexcoders was stagnant/draining members/too 
busy I had no idea there was a problem. Perhaps there isn't.

One phenomenom that seems to be growing is that of obscure please for help 
where the subject and post content is poor. I think the FAQ would help.

Anyway, I'm not convinced there's a need for panic or overly fast decisions.

Is it just that the flex world is maturing?

Paul
 



Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Doug,
  I have few from the list in "high priority" gmail list that I monitor
during the day along with personal and unsecured business messages. Priority
account is associated with GTalk and other real time communications
including push to mobile devices and todo/calendar lists.

   The rest goes to "low priority" list  that I skimp once or twice a day at
best. It is more often wiped out then read after a brief scan - sorry to say
flexcoders is in low priority gmail account along with few other groups.
That way I can maintain some productivity if needed.

Regards,
Anatole
PS Obviously, there is also secured IMAP aggregator that distributes all
business and private correspondence that goes to conventional email agent as
well.
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email
> lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders,
> flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and
> flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each
> list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is
> from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else
> does this? Somehow I can stay on top of it all, although I'm sure you
> could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity
> :)
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > cool.
> >
> > This discussion needs some resolving though.
> >
> > I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists.
> > With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats,
> > my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with
> > the split.
> >
> > best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment,
> > flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux,
> > announcements, etc..
> >
> > lets do it.
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/Concepts" as separate but
> >> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else
> > brought
> >> it up.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> >> > having an
> >> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> > would have
> >> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> >> > Flex
> >> >
> >> > Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
> >> >
> >> > For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
> >> > interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
> >> >
> >> > From my point of view I'm always learning.
> >> > It would be an interesting read for me.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
> >> >  40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Daniel
> >> > Freiman"  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone
> >> > against
> >> > > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
> >> > list?
> >> > >
> >> > > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
> >> > potential
> >> > > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
> >> > will be
> >> > > for. I'll take the "enterprise" example. Let's assume for a second
> >> > it has
> >> > > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with,
> > but many
> >> > > people disagree with me on that). "Enterprise" has become a
> >> > buzzword with
> >> > > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
> >> > meanings are
> >> > > vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> >> > > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
> >> > what we
> >> > > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> >> > > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
> >> > And if we
> >> > > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't
> > efficiently
> >> > > criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to
> >> > be a fine
> >> > > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> >> > >
> >> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> >> > having an
> >> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> > would have
> >> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> >> > Flex
> >> > > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
> >> > would)
> >> > > or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> >> > > stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
> >> > accessible to
> >> > > users of all skill levels)?
> >> > >
> >> > > Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't
> > separate the
> >> > > lists based

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Josh McDonald
Well if it's only a month old I don't feel so stupid for not knowing about
it ;-)

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yep, something we launched a blogged about a month or two ago.
> http://community.adobe.com/ion/index.html
>
> Matt
>
>
> On 6/17/08 9:35 PM, "Josh McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've
> been here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow
> (sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier
> today...
>
> -Josh
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this
> already.  Go searching on adobe.com <http://adobe.com><http://adobe.com>
>  in the dev center for Flex and you'll see that it aggregates blogs,
> flexcoders, etc.
>
> Matt
>
>
> On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, "Sherif Abdou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> something like this
> http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/
>
> would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going
> to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done.
>
> ----- Original Message 
> From: Sherif Abdou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
> groups
>
>
>
>
> an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/
> AIR all in one, combine Adobe <http://www.adobe.com/><
> http://www.adobe.com/><http://www.adobe.com/><http://www.adobe.com/>
>  feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents  and everything in one site. Flexcoders
> can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds.
> I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are
> horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app
> you can implement chating and a lounge.
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Daniel Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com <http://ups.com><http://ups.com>  <
> http://ups.com><http://ups.com><http://ups.com><http://ups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
> groups
>
>
>
>
> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/ Concepts" as separate but
> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought
> it up.
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss  gmail.com <http://gmail.com><http://gmail.com>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
> having an
> > arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> Flex
>
> Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
>
> For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
> interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
>
> From my point of view I'm always learning.
> It would be an interesting read for me.
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com <http://ups.com><http://ups.com>
>  <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com  flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com > flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20 
> <mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com >
> ><mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com  flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com > flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20 
> <mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com >
> > , "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
> >
> > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone
> against
> > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
> list?
> >
> > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
> potential
> > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
> will be
> > for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second
> it has
> > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> > people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a
> buzzword with
> > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of t

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Josh McDonald
No Doug, I do the exact same thing. Fewer lists (like my current flex job,
not using degrafa / pv3d, etc), but they're all going into the flex list.
Once you learn not to care about the messages you mark "read" without
reading them (kinda like ignoring a ringing phone, in my mind) it works
pretty well. I feel I'm able to do my part when it comes to helping others
on the list.

-Josh

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email
> lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders,
> flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and
> flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each
> list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is
> from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else
> does this? Somehow I can stay on top  of it all, although I'm sure you
> could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity
> :)
>
> Doug
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > cool.
> >
> > This discussion needs some resolving though.
> >
> > I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists.
> > With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats,
> > my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with
> > the split.
> >
> > best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment,
> > flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux,
> > announcements, etc..
> >
> > lets do it.
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/Concepts" as separate but
> >> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else
> > brought
> >> it up.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> >> > having an
> >> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> > would have
> >> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> >> > Flex
> >> >
> >> > Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
> >> >
> >> > For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
> >> > interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
> >> >
> >> > From my point of view I'm always learning.
> >> > It would be an interesting read for me.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> > "Daniel
> >> > Freiman"  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone
> >> > against
> >> > > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
> >> > list?
> >> > >
> >> > > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
> >> > potential
> >> > > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
> >> > will be
> >> > > for. I'll take the "enterprise" example. Let's assume for a second
> >> > it has
> >> > > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with,
> > but many
> >> > > people disagree with me on that). "Enterprise" has become a
> >> > buzzword with
> >> > > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
> >> > meanings are
> >> > > vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> >> > > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
> >> > what we
> >> > > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> >> > > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
> >> > And if we
> >> > > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't
> > efficiently
> >> > > criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to
> >> > be a fine
> >> > > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> >> > >
> >> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> >> > having an
> >> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> > would have
> >> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> >> > Flex
> >> > > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
> >> > would)
> >> > > or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> >> > > stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
> >> > accessible to
> >> > > users of all skill levels)?
> >> > >
> >> > > Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't
> > separate the
> >> > > lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy
> >> > (Too
> >> > > much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).
> >> > Sometimes you
> >> > > don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
> >> > answer.
> >> > > I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
> >> > question
> >> > > and the response from Gordon was

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Matt Chotin
Yep, something we launched a blogged about a month or two ago.  
http://community.adobe.com/ion/index.html

Matt


On 6/17/08 9:35 PM, "Josh McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've been 
here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow (sorry I 
forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier today...

-Josh

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this already. 
 Go searching on adobe.com <http://adobe.com><http://adobe.com>  in the dev 
center for Flex and you'll see that it aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc.

Matt


On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, "Sherif Abdou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




something like this
http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/

would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be 
overwhelmed and nothing will get done.

- Original Message 
From: Sherif Abdou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups




an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR 
all in one, combine Adobe 
<http://www.adobe.com/><http://www.adobe.com/><http://www.adobe.com/><http://www.adobe.com/>
  feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents  and everything in one site. Flexcoders can 
then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 
3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible 
+ i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can 
implement chating and a lounge.

- Original Message 
From: Daniel Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com <http://ups.com><http://ups.com>  
<http://ups.com><http://ups.com><http://ups.com><http://ups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups




I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/ Concepts" as separate but 
overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it 
up.

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss http://gmail.com><http://gmail.com>  <mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> > wrote:



> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex

Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.

For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
interesting topics were brought up and discussed.

>From my point of view I'm always learning.
It would be an interesting read for me.


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com <http://ups.com><http://ups.com>  
<mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com><mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20<mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com>
 ><mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com><mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com%20<mailto:flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com>
 > , "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
>
> I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone
against
> this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
list?
>
> As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
potential
> new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
will be
> for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second
it has
> only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a
buzzword with
> many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
meanings are
> vague.  There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
what we
> are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
And if we
> don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
> criticize/support/ amend the proposal.  I'm not saying there has to
be a fine
> line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
>
> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn&#

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Doug McCune
Out of morbid curiosity, am I the only one who has multiple email
lists all being filtered into the same mega-list? I have flexcoders,
flexcomponents, apollocoders, papervision, degrafa, flexlib, and
flexjobs all dropped into a mondo folder in gmail. I color code each
list accordingly so I can at a glance see which list a message is
from, but typically I read them all in the master list. Nobody else
does this? Somehow I can stay on top  of it all, although I'm sure you
could argue that at times it's certainly not helping my productivity
:)

Doug

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> cool.
>
> This discussion needs some resolving though.
>
> I'm all for the creation of another 15 lists.
> With all the cross-posting, subject-meta, gmail, stats,
> my-left-arm-is-longer-than-my-right arguments, my vote is still with
> the split.
>
> best-practices, architecture, components, unit-testing, deployment,
> flash-flex, remote services, java-flex architectures, design ux,
> announcements, etc..
>
> lets do it.
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/Concepts" as separate but
>> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else
> brought
>> it up.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
>> > having an
>> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> would have
>> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
>> > Flex
>> >
>> > Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
>> >
>> > For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
>> > interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
>> >
>> > From my point of view I'm always learning.
>> > It would be an interesting read for me.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Daniel
>> > Freiman"  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone
>> > against
>> > > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
>> > list?
>> > >
>> > > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
>> > potential
>> > > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
>> > will be
>> > > for. I'll take the "enterprise" example. Let's assume for a second
>> > it has
>> > > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with,
> but many
>> > > people disagree with me on that). "Enterprise" has become a
>> > buzzword with
>> > > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
>> > meanings are
>> > > vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
>> > > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
>> > what we
>> > > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
>> > > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
>> > And if we
>> > > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't
> efficiently
>> > > criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to
>> > be a fine
>> > > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
>> > >
>> > > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
>> > having an
>> > > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I
> would have
>> > > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
>> > Flex
>> > > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
>> > would)
>> > > or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
>> > > stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
>> > accessible to
>> > > users of all skill levels)?
>> > >
>> > > Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't
> separate the
>> > > lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy
>> > (Too
>> > > much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).
>> > Sometimes you
>> > > don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
>> > answer.
>> > > I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
>> > question
>> > > and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
>> > team..."
>> > > If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless
> the one
>> > > line required going through the player or compiler code to
> understand it
>> > > (sorry for the overstatement).
>> > >
>> > > - Daniel Freiman
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen 
>> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration
>> > > > folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this
> discussion come
>> > > > up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
>> > > > there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or
> splitting up

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Josh McDonald
That's a really useful thing, why isn't it pimped here more often? I've been
here 10 months, and I'd never heard of it before that Brazilian fellow
(sorry I forgot your name dude) mentioned it in the original thread earlier
today...

-Josh

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this
> already.  Go searching on adobe.com in the dev center for Flex and you'll
> see that it aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc.
>
> Matt
>
>
> On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, "Sherif Abdou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> something like this
> http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/
>
> would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going
> to be overwhelmed and nothing will get done.
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Sherif Abdou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
> groups
>
>
>
>
> an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/
> AIR all in one, combine Adobe <http://www.adobe.com/><
> http://www.adobe.com/>  feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents  and everything
> in one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart
> categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can
> work on something but my design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500
> dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can implement chating and a
> lounge.
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Daniel Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com <http://ups.com><http://ups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused
> groups
>
>
>
>
> I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/ Concepts" as separate but
> overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought
> it up.
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss  gmail.com <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
> having an
> > arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> Flex
>
> Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
>
> For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
> interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
>
> From my point of view I'm always learning.
> It would be an interesting read for me.
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com 
> <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com
> ><mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > ,
> "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
> >
> > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone
> against
> > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
> list?
> >
> > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
> potential
> > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
> will be
> > for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second
> it has
> > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> > people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a
> buzzword with
> > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
> meanings are
> > vague.  There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
> what we
> > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
> And if we
> > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
> > criticize/support/ amend the proposal.  I'm not saying there has to
> be a fine
> > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> >
> > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
> having an
> > arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> Flex
> > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
> would)
> > or would it just be piggybackin

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Matt Chotin
The community search engine that we put out is meant to help with this already. 
 Go searching on adobe.com in the dev center for Flex and you'll see that it 
aggregates blogs, flexcoders, etc.

Matt


On 6/17/08 9:25 PM, "Sherif Abdou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




something like this
http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/

would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be 
overwhelmed and nothing will get done.

- Original Message 
From: Sherif Abdou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups




an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR 
all in one, combine Adobe <http://www.adobe.com/><http://www.adobe.com/>  
feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents  and everything in one site. Flexcoders can 
then be split up based on smart categories/categori es like adobe feeds. I got 
3 month of free time i can work on something but my design skills are horrible 
+ i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in that app you can 
implement chating and a lounge.

- Original Message 
From: Daniel Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com <http://ups.com><http://ups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups




I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/ Concepts" as separate but 
overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it 
up.

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:



> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex

Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.

For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
interesting topics were brought up and discussed.

>From my point of view I'm always learning.
It would be an interesting read for me.


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com 
<mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> , 
"Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
>
> I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone
against
> this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
list?
>
> As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
potential
> new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
will be
> for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second
it has
> only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a
buzzword with
> many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
meanings are
> vague.  There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
what we
> are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
And if we
> don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
> criticize/support/ amend the proposal.  I'm not saying there has to
be a fine
> line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
>
> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex
> other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
would)
> or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
accessible to
> users of all skill levels)?
>
> Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the
> lists based on skill/level difficulty.  The distinction is too fuzzy
(Too
> much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).
Sometimes you
> don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
answer.
> I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
question
> and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
team..."
> If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one
> line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it
> (sorry for the over

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Sherif Abdou
something like this
http://extjs.com/blog/2008/02/24/tasks2/

would work well, if we keep splitting it down then everyone is just going to be 
overwhelmed and nothing will get done. 


- Original Message 
From: Sherif Abdou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:18:49 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/ AIR 
all in one, combine Adobe feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents  and everything in 
one site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categori es 
like adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my 
design skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. 
Also in that app you can implement chating and a lounge. 


- Original Message 
From: Daniel Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/ Concepts" as separate but 
overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it 
up.


On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss  wrote:

> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex


Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.

For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
interesting topics were brought up and discussed.

>From my point of view I'm always learning. 
It would be an interesting read for me.


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
>
> I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone
against
> this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
list?
> 
> As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
potential
> new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
will be
> for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second
it has
> only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a
buzzword with
> many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
meanings are
> vague.  There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
what we
> are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word). 
And if we
> don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
> criticize/support/ amend the proposal.  I'm not saying there has to
be a fine
> line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> 
> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex
> other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
would)
> or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
accessible to
> users of all skill levels)?
> 
> Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the
> lists based on skill/level difficulty.  The distinction is too fuzzy
(Too
> much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). 
Sometimes you
> don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
answer.
> I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
question
> and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
team..."
> If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one
> line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it
> (sorry for the overstatement) .
> 
> - Daniel Freiman
> 

> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen 

> wrote:
> 
> >   Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration
> > folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come
> > up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
> > there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up
> > things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with
> > helping this

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Sherif Abdou
an easier way would just create a big application using Flex/ColdFusion/AIR all 
in one, combine Adobe feeds, flexcoders, flexcomponents  and everything in one 
site. Flexcoders can then be split up based on smart categories/categories like 
adobe feeds. I got 3 month of free time i can work on something but my design 
skills are horrible + i cant afford no 7500 dollar coldfusion license. Also in 
that app you can implement chating and a lounge. 


- Original Message 
From: Daniel Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:02:36 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups


I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/ Concepts" as separate but 
overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought it 
up.


On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss  wrote:

> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex


Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.

For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
interesting topics were brought up and discussed.

>From my point of view I'm always learning. 
It would be an interesting read for me.


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, "Daniel Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
>
> I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone
against
> this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
list?
> 
> As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
potential
> new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
will be
> for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second
it has
> only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a
buzzword with
> many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
meanings are
> vague.  There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
what we
> are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word). 
And if we
> don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
> criticize/support/ amend the proposal.  I'm not saying there has to
be a fine
> line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> 
> Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of
having an
> arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
> would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
Flex
> other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
would)
> or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
accessible to
> users of all skill levels)?
> 
> Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the
> lists based on skill/level difficulty.  The distinction is too fuzzy
(Too
> much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list). 
Sometimes you
> don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
answer.
> I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
question
> and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
team..."
> If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one
> line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it
> (sorry for the overstatement) .
> 
> - Daniel Freiman
> 

> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen 

> wrote:
> 
> >   Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration
> > folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come
> > up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
> > there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up
> > things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with
> > helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made
> > available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have
> > it linked at the footer.
> >
> > Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that
> > answers are terse due to volume.
> >
> > Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list
> > mommies or 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Daniel Freiman
I think of "Best Practices" and "Architecture/Concepts" as separate but
overlapping categories so I guess that's why I thought no one else brought
it up.

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> having an
> > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have
> > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> Flex
>
> Anatole mentioned it earlier in a 'Best Practices' list.
>
> For example at MAX thy had that Best Practices panel and some
> interesting topics were brought up and discussed.
>
> From my point of view I'm always learning.
> It would be an interesting read for me.
>
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Daniel
> Freiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what. Is anyone
> against
> > this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the
> list?
> >
> > As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose
> potential
> > new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list
> will be
> > for. I'll take the "enterprise" example. Let's assume for a second
> it has
> > only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
> > people disagree with me on that). "Enterprise" has become a
> buzzword with
> > many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those
> meanings are
> > vague. There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
> > talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out
> what we
> > are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
> > "enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).
> And if we
> > don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
> > criticize/support/amend the proposal. I'm not saying there has to
> be a fine
> > line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.
> >
> > Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of. The idea of
> having an
> > arch/concepts list might be interesting. The two questions I would have
> > would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to
> Flex
> > other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably
> would)
> > or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
> > stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically
> accessible to
> > users of all skill levels)?
> >
> > Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the
> > lists based on skill/level difficulty. The distinction is too fuzzy
> (Too
> > much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).
> Sometimes you
> > don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the
> answer.
> > I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple
> question
> > and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player
> team..."
> > If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one
> > line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it
> > (sorry for the overstatement).
> >
> > - Daniel Freiman
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration
> > > folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come
> > > up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
> > > there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up
> > > things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with
> > > helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made
> > > available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have
> > > it linked at the footer.
> > >
> > > Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that
> > > answers are terse due to volume.
> > >
> > > Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list
> > > mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to
> > > the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list
> > > mommies.
> > >
> > > I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be
> > > beneficial to all as well as the community. Do we know this for a
> > > fact? Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other
> > > topics in the past. Conversely it may have hindered others, but
> > > perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who
> > > knows. Hey, there are already multiple lists, besides flexcomponents
> > > there is HOF_Flex for one and the India based list too, I'm sure there
> > > are others.
> > >
> > > I suggest we start off with a couple very generic variants.
> > > flexcoders_enterprise seems ok to me, those that work with enterprise
> > > tools would find it obvious. leave flexcoders as is, add in a
> > > designer centric list

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Josh McDonald
Correlating subscribes, unsubscribes, and "everybody who posted in the last
month" should be fairly easy when Doug's cooked up his list of
threads/messages combined with what I assume are logs of subscribe and
unsubscribe that Matt and co. have access to. From that we can work out
average turnover, subscription length, lurker %, etc...

-Josh

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Matt, Doug,
>
> If you can just count subscriptions for the last 9 month, then take out
> 2500 of the accumulated difference, you would get unsubscribes. I assume
> that you are working off logs, not from the memberships export as it would
> remove unsubscribed members within the week (some busy people are really
> quick).
>
> For example if we speculate using your rate of 100 per week it would be 40%
> of unsubscibes on 75% annual growth rate if people would not unsubscribe.
> The next question would be average length of subscription - ie how many
> experienced users are staying in the community. Next it needs to be
> adjusted for how many of these 10K members are actually getting their feeds
> rather then having it in "Web Only/Digest" mode if that number is
> significant - and when do they switch to "Web Only" and "Digest"mode.
>
> One way or another number of messages in community has to correlate with
> the number of "active" members. Once we establish actual "retaining" numbers
> we should see the point when/if message number hurts the usability.
>
> Now, *why am I suggesting 15 groups in place of one*? *Do I really think
> all of them would work*? No, but:
> 1. We would reasonably quickly  find out which ones do - can either fold
> the rest of them in "generic" one or combine in more targeted bigger ones.
> 2. Make asking person job harder by forcing them to think what kind of
> question he is about to ask and what type of person he would like to answer
> the question
> 3. Instead of making Alex answer the same messages weekly you can get more
> moderators with reasonably light load and good handle on the things in their
> domain. The model is similar to "Community Experts" except it would be
> nominated/driven by community.
>
> "BOF" groups are better communication platform then "one size fit all"
> marketplace. Let the community be its own search engine and provide us with
> the metrics - by supporting more natural process of finding information and
> networking.
>
> Sincerely,
> Anatole Tartakovsky
> Farata Systems
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>   As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I
>> don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to
>> track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone
>> would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these
>> kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how
>> many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-)
>>
>> This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the
>> community to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by
>> Adobe. That said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve
>> ourselves as necessary to try to make that happen.
>>
>> Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor
>> to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for
>> them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the
>> issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from
>> getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those
>> folks who have been "hurt" we can assume are folks who are not on the list
>> anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to
>> why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we
>> could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another
>> piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have
>> happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the
>> skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un
>> answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us
>> understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total
>> number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month.
>>
>> Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who
>> advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of
>> analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making
>> this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really
>> happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we
>> don't know if doing so would actually improve things.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL 
>> PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Matt, Doug,

If you can just count subscriptions for the last 9 month, then take out 2500
of the accumulated difference, you would get unsubscribes. I assume that you
are working off logs, not from the memberships export as it would remove
unsubscribed members within the week (some busy people are really quick).

For example if we speculate using your rate of 100 per week it would be 40%
of unsubscibes on 75% annual growth rate if people would not unsubscribe.
The next question would be average length of subscription - ie how many
experienced users are staying in the community. Next it needs to be
adjusted for how many of these 10K members are actually getting their feeds
rather then having it in "Web Only/Digest" mode if that number is
significant - and when do they switch to "Web Only" and "Digest"mode.

One way or another number of messages in community has to correlate with the
number of "active" members. Once we establish actual "retaining" numbers we
should see the point when/if message number hurts the usability.

Now, *why am I suggesting 15 groups in place of one*? *Do I really think all
of them would work*? No, but:
1. We would reasonably quickly  find out which ones do - can either fold the
rest of them in "generic" one or combine in more targeted bigger ones.
2. Make asking person job harder by forcing them to think what kind of
question he is about to ask and what type of person he would like to answer
the question
3. Instead of making Alex answer the same messages weekly you can get more
moderators with reasonably light load and good handle on the things in their
domain. The model is similar to "Community Experts" except it would be
nominated/driven by community.

"BOF" groups are better communication platform then "one size fit all"
marketplace. Let the community be its own search engine and provide us with
the metrics - by supporting more natural process of finding information and
networking.

Sincerely,
Anatole Tartakovsky
Farata Systems
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I
> don't know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to
> track easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone
> would like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these
> kinds of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how
> many of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-)
>
> This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community
> to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That
> said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as
> necessary to try to make that happen.
>
> Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor
> to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for
> them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the
> issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from
> getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those
> folks who have been "hurt" we can assume are folks who are not on the list
> anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to
> why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we
> could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another
> piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have
> happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the
> skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un
> answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us
> understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total
> number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month.
>
> Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who
> advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of
> analysis? For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making
> this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really
> happening here. I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we
> don't know if doing so would actually improve things.
>
> Matt
>
>
> On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> Doug,
> As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not
> unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go
> to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has
> been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people
> in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on
> unsubscribes count.
> Regards,
> Anatole
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> Actually, this is worth going b

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Daniel Freiman
I agree that a FAQ seems like a good idea no matter what.  Is anyone against
this idea independent of the argument of whether or not to split the list?

As far as splitting lists, I still think if people want to propose potential
new lists, they need to be much more explicit about what the list will be
for.  I'll take the "enterprise" example.  Let's assume for a second it has
only one correct meaning (which is an assumption I agree with, but many
people disagree with me on that).  "Enterprise" has become a buzzword with
many different commonly understood meanings, and most of those meanings are
vague.  There's no way for everyone on the list to be sure that we're
talking about the same thing unless someone explicitly spells out what we
are talking about (I'm not going to because I'm against having a
"enterprise" list given every way I know to interpret the word).  And if we
don't have a common understanding of the proposal we can't efficiently
criticize/support/amend the proposal.  I'm not saying there has to be a fine
line separating the lists, but it should at least be a fuzzy line.

Also, to Bjorn, that's a point I hadn't thought of.  The idea of having an
arch/concepts list might be interesting.  The two questions I would have
would be: 1) would the questions on this list have any connection to Flex
other than the fact that the users code in Flex (I think it probably would)
or would it just be piggybacking on the user base; 2) Will it avoid
stratification of the user base (i.e. will it be practically accessible to
users of all skill levels)?

Lastly, I'm going to reiterate my opinion that we shouldn't separate the
lists based on skill/level difficulty.  The distinction is too fuzzy (Too
much cross-posting and too much posting to the wrong list).  Sometimes you
don't know if you're question is advanced or not until you get the answer.
I've had a few times where I've asked what I thought was a simple question
and the response from Gordon was "I talked to a guy on the player team..."
If a question has a one line answer it can't be complex...unless the one
line required going through the player or compiler code to understand it
(sorry for the overstatement).

- Daniel Freiman

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Douglas Knudsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>   Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration
> folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come
> up a few times. I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
> there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up
> things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with
> helping this community. I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made
> available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have
> it linked at the footer.
>
> Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that
> answers are terse due to volume.
>
> Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list
> mommies or invitations for list mommies. Something quite uncommon to
> the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list
> mommies.
>
> I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be
> beneficial to all as well as the community. Do we know this for a
> fact? Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other
> topics in the past. Conversely it may have hindered others, but
> perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who
> knows. Hey, there are already multiple lists, besides flexcomponents
> there is HOF_Flex for one and the India based list too, I'm sure there
> are others.
>
> I suggest we start off with a couple very generic variants.
> flexcoders_enterprise seems ok to me, those that work with enterprise
> tools would find it obvious. leave flexcoders as is, add in a
> designer centric list, and a advanced list and go from there, revisit
> in a few months to see how it went.
>
> Oh, BTW< there are other email readers that do threaded tricks like
> GMail...though I don't use them. :)
>
> DK
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
> >
> > Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion.
> >
> > 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
> the
> > community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One
> > suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for
> "how-to"
> > type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook
> > appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in
> > Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think
> > the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer
> > Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the
> opensource
> > wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get
> them
> > adde

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Douglas Knudsen
Having been on this list since 2004, yeah back when the Iteration
folks were not Adobe Robe Wearers yet, I've seen this discussion come
up a few times.  I've asked for a associated FAQ a few times, but
there was no interest from the Iteration folks on this or splitting up
things, no offense Alistair or Stephen you more than rocked with
helping this community.  I'd certainly agree to a good FAQ be made
available and sent to the list monthly for all to be reminded and have
it linked at the footer.

Bjorn has a good point later in this thread about the idea that
answers are terse due to volume.

Matt, I do agree with your #1, but #2 and #3 sounds too much like list
mommies or invitations for list mommies.  Something quite uncommon to
the best of my recollection on flexcoders is the real need for list
mommies.

I'm in Anatole's camp on this, having multiple lists could be
beneficial to all as well as the community.  Do we know this for a
fact?  Nope, my crystal ball isn't helping, but it has with many other
topics in the past.  Conversely it may have hindered others, but
perhaps because the introduction of split lists was premature, who
knows.  Hey, there are already multiple lists, besides flexcomponents
there is HOF_Flex for one and the India based list too, I'm sure there
are others.

I suggest we start off with a couple very generic variants.
flexcoders_enterprise seems ok to me, those that work with enterprise
tools would find it obvious.  leave flexcoders as is, add in a
designer centric list, and a advanced list and go from there, revisit
in a few months to see how it went.

Oh, BTW< there are other email readers that do threaded tricks like
GMail...though I don't use them. :)

DK

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
>
> Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion.
>
> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the
> community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One
> suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for "how-to"
> type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook
> appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in
> Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think
> the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer
> Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource
> wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them
> added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to
> the bottom of every email.
>
> 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject
> something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We
> could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise],
> [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by
> following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will
> know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The
> more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become.
>
> 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for
> spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if
> they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the
> moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has
> posting guidelines.
>
> 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom
> of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove
> the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum
> etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems.
>
> If this sounds OK then what we need are the two kinds of moderators:
>
> 1. moderators for the forum itself who are willing to really look at all
> posts that are in moderation and analyze whether they should be passed
> through. If it is a poorly formed question, the post should be rejected with
> a pointer to the forum FAQ.
> 2. moderators for the FAQ who can pay attention to common questions and
> update the FAQ as appropriate.
>
> If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things set
> up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in the
> meantime.
>
> Matt
>
> 



-- 
Douglas Knudsen
http://www.cubicleman.com
this is my signature, like it?


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Josh McDonald
*grin*

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Then of course I'll build some flex apps to crunch some of the data :)
>
>
-- 
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

:: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
:: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Josh McDonald
Matt,

I'm definitely interested in knowing some of these stats. You could also
track postings-per-user over time, and identify people who are likely
candidates for a "hey, why'd you quit the list?" private email. I don't
think anybody would be mad about being contact by an Adobe representative
who's trying to help the community.

-Josh

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week.  I don't
> know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track
> easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would
> like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds
> of stats let me know and I'll get you access).  Also hard to know how many
> of the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-)
>
> This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community
> to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe.  That
> said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as
> necessary to try to make that happen.
>
> Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor
> to divide the list.  I see folks who have figured out workflows that work
> for them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable.  That
> said, the issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users
> from getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating.  Most of
> those folks who have been "hurt" we can assume are folks who are not on the
> list anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as
> to why they left the list.  If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe
> we could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after.
>  Another piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts
> that have happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and
> see if the skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going
> un answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise.  This would help us
> understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total
> number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month.
>
> Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone?  Are the folks who
> advocate separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of
> analysis?  For me, it seems kind of critical to have real data before making
> this kind of decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really
> happening here.  I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we
> don't know if doing so would actually improve things.
>
> Matt
>
>
-- 
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

:: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
:: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Doug McCune
I plan on gathering a complete archive of the list over the next week
and doing some analysis. I'll post the full dataset once I get it
compiled to let others play with it too. I'm working on a variety of
ways to get a compiled list of all messages, but I think between
either scraping the mail archive site and scraping the yahoo group
site I should have it figured out in another week.

Then of course I'll build some flex apps to crunch some of the data :)

Doug

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week. I don't
> know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track
> easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would
> like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds
> of stats let me know and I'll get you access). Also hard to know how many of
> the folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-)
>
> This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community
> to thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe. That
> said, we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as
> necessary to try to make that happen.
>
> Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor
> to divide the list. I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for
> them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable. That said, the
> issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from
> getting help, or preventing advanced users from participating. Most of those
> folks who have been "hurt" we can assume are folks who are not on the list
> anymore, so it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to
> why they left the list. If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we
> could work on trying to gather that data and make a decision after. Another
> piece of data we could use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have
> happened recently, perhaps compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the
> skill level of posters is increasing, how many threads are going un
> answered, semi-subjective view of signal vs. noise. This would help us
> understand if there is meaning behind the low rate of increase in total
> number of members, as well as the generally flat nature of posts per month.
>
> Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone? Are the folks who advocate
> separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis? For me,
> it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of
> decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here.
> I'd have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing
> so would actually improve things.
>
> Matt
>
> On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> Doug,
> As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not unsubscribe
> from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the
> group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in
> 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and
> OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on
> unsubscribes count.
> Regards,
> Anatole
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that
> the group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of new users and
> questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has
> gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of
> traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago
> the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the
> traffic but then it stopped growing.
>
> So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is "stagnant".
> Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying
> that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that
> is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't
> even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a
> simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by
> this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to
> answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need
> to post the questions over and over.
>
> What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on
> this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm
> open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And
> largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained
> high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic
> level has stopped people 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Matt Chotin
As far as stats, we've had about 100 people join in the last week.  I don't 
know how many folks unsubscribed, that seems to be a little harder to track 
easily and I don't have time to read through all the logs (if someone would 
like to write some scripts to go through the logs and build up these kinds of 
stats let me know and I'll get you access).  Also hard to know how many of the 
folks who joined are spammers, but I don't think that many :-)

This is a tough position for me to comment on because we want the community to 
thrive and have a life of its own that isn't controlled by Adobe.  That said, 
we clearly want to see it succeed and will involve ourselves as necessary to 
try to make that happen.

Based on the comments I'm seeing in this thread I don't see the big clamor to 
divide the list.  I see folks who have figured out workflows that work for 
them, and suggestions for how to make things more manageable.  That said, the 
issue that Anatole raises is whether we are preventing new users from getting 
help, or preventing advanced users from participating.  Most of those folks who 
have been "hurt" we can assume are folks who are not on the list anymore, so 
it's difficult to really know without some sort of data as to why they left the 
list.  If people are willing to wait a few weeks, maybe we could work on trying 
to gather that data and make a decision after.  Another piece of data we could 
use is an analysis of the kinds of posts that have happened recently, perhaps 
compared to posts from a year ago, and see if the skill level of posters is 
increasing, how many threads are going un answered, semi-subjective view of 
signal vs. noise.  This would help us understand if there is meaning behind the 
low rate of increase in total number of members, as well as the generally flat 
nature of posts per month.

Does doing this kind of analysis interest anyone?  Are the folks who advocate 
separating the list interested in waiting for this kind of analysis?  For me, 
it seems kind of critical to have real data before making this kind of 
decision, as we're going with hunches as to what's really happening here.  I'd 
have a hard time getting behind a real split when we don't know if doing so 
would actually improve things.

Matt


On 6/17/08 3:15 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Doug,
As far as I know, I am the only one in the  NY office who did not unsubscribe 
from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go to the group 
page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has been in 9K for 
at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of people in and OUT - 
obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed stats on unsubscribes 
count.
Regards,
Anatole

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that the 
group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of new users and 
questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has gotten 
too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of traffic isn't 
stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago the traffic 
reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the traffic but then it 
stopped growing.

So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is "stagnant". Almost 
10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying that these 
stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that is true 
(although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't even 
necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a simple 
fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by this 
list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to answer 
more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need to post 
the questions over and over.

What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on this 
single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm open to 
the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And largely I 
think that the number of people answering questions has remained high and the 
response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic level has stopped 
people from reading the questions that others ask (I certainly skim and 
sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination of self-moderated 
subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing repeat questions to cached 
answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a repeat) will largely solve 
this problem.

So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about?

Doug


On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Matt,
   Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single group 
causes stagnation.  If you agree with the numb

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Tim,
Stagnant is definetly not good for developing technology. It is also
unlikely to be "all good". Flexcoders increased 30% in 9 month ( from 7,500
to 9965) since August of 2007. The number of messages  for the first 5 month
increased approx 5% from the year before - even with major release this year
and fewer news last year. In the same time (since August 2007)  our Flex
related blogs got sustainable increase of over 100% unique users and that
number is quite higher then the number of flexcoders. Very unlikely given
prominent place Adobe gives to this user group that number of flexcoders
should not increase even faster.
It is either usability problem or we are just lucky. Adobe has to run
extended stats on subscription / unsubscription dynamics and decide what to
do.
Regards,
Anatole





On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> No words to eat man. Those numbers also indicate that there hasn't been
> a sudden explosion in message volume recently. It's been consitant for
> years. So, the need to drastically re-structure because of the Inbox
> doesn't fly. Stagnation, perhaps. Less un-answered questions being
> asked. Anyway, change or not, its all good.
>
> -TH
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Doug
> McCune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I eat my words in terms of message growth then :) Touche. Thanks
> for
> > those stats. I'd actually be interested in getting access to the raw
> data
> > dump for the entire list to run some analysis, but that's getting off
> topic.
> >
> > Just one point, which has already been brought up, but now that we're
> > looking at #s, here are the #s for flexcomponents (note also that this
> > doesn't discount for cross-posts to flexcoders as well, which I assume
> are a
> > large portion too):
> >
> > Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2008
> > 159
> > 153 
> > 88
> > 59 
> > 45
> > 39 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2007 190
> 
> > 234 
> > 442
> > 149 
> > 168
> > 260 
> > 103
> > 183 
> > 96
> > 119 
> > 129
> > 140 
> 2006
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 297 
> > 68
> > 211 
> > 89
> > 184 
> > 237
> > I'm not saying that if you split the group all the small groups will
> follow
> > that fate, but as everyone has mentioned, flexcomponents was
> specifically
> > made to try to keep custom component development out of the main
> flexcoders
> > mailing list, and I don't think anyone will argue that that has
> worked.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Doug,
> > > As far as I know, I am the only one in the NY office who did not
> > > unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or
> just go
> > > to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it
> correctly has
> > > been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number
> of
> > > people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more
> detailed
> > > stats on unsubscribes count.
> > > Regards,
> > > Anatole
> > >
>  > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > >> Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email
> said
> > >> that the group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of
> new users
> > >> and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the
> traffic has
> > >> gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Doug,

Before we get into details please note that you have smaller group 30% size
of flexcoders members count  posting 5% of the flexcoders message count -
but people do not flee as the traffic does not force them, they get
occasional emails and they have chance to follow up.

Flexcomponents is a bad example of a "community" site - it was set up for
3rd party components developers, and as far as I know most of components for
Flex are either OS free ones consolidated elsewhere or proprietary supported
on the respected sites. I am looking at FlexComponents as advertising board
for new stuff, but it does not seem appropriate to ask there questions on
the particular framework or component. So the association with Adobe/Flex is
not playing real role there.

Personally, after posting few messages there and getting responses via
private email I switched to that mode myself . You usually just email/call
3rd party developer to find out about interesting aspects or particular
applicability/availability of the developers for subcontracting in their
field of specialty.

Sincerely,
Anatole Tartakovsky


On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   OK, I eat my words in terms of message growth then :) Touche. Thanks for
> those stats. I'd actually be interested in getting access to the raw data
> dump for the entire list to run some analysis, but that's getting off topic.
>
> Just one point, which has already been brought up, but now that we're
> looking at #s, here are the #s for flexcomponents (note also that this
> doesn't discount for cross-posts to flexcoders as well, which I assume are a
> large portion too):
>
>Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
>  2008 159
> 153  
> 88
> 59  
> 45
> 39 
>
>
>
>
>
>  2007 190
> 234  
> 442
> 149  
> 168
> 260  
> 103
> 183  
> 96
> 119  
> 129
> 140 
> 2006
>
>
>
>
>
> 297  
> 68
> 211  
> 89
> 184  
> 237
> I'm not saying that if you split the group all the small groups will follow
> that fate, but as everyone has mentioned, flexcomponents was specifically
> made to try to keep custom component development out of the main flexcoders
> mailing list, and I don't think anyone will argue that that has worked.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Doug,
>> As far as I know, I am the only one in the  NY office who did not
>> unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go
>> to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has
>> been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of
>> people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed
>> stats on unsubscribes count.
>> Regards,
>> Anatole
>>
>>  On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>   Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said
>>> that the group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of new users
>>> and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has
>>> gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of
>>> traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago
>>> the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the
>>> traffic but then it stopped growing.
>>>
>>> So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is "stagnant".
>>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Doug McCune
OK, I eat my words in terms of message growth then :) Touche. Thanks for
those stats. I'd actually be interested in getting access to the raw data
dump for the entire list to run some analysis, but that's getting off topic.

Just one point, which has already been brought up, but now that we're
looking at #s, here are the #s for flexcomponents (note also that this
doesn't discount for cross-posts to flexcoders as well, which I assume are a
large portion too):

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec  2008
159
153 
88
59 
45
39 





 2007 190 
234 
442
149 
168
260 
103
183 
96
119 
129
140   2006





 297 
68
211 
89
184 
237
I'm not saying that if you split the group all the small groups will follow
that fate, but as everyone has mentioned, flexcomponents was specifically
made to try to keep custom component development out of the main flexcoders
mailing list, and I don't think anyone will argue that that has worked.

Doug


On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Doug,
> As far as I know, I am the only one in the  NY office who did not
> unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go
> to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has
> been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of
> people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed
> stats on unsubscribes count.
> Regards,
> Anatole
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>   Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said
>> that the group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of new users
>> and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has
>> gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of
>> traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago
>> the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the
>> traffic but then it stopped growing.
>>
>> So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is "stagnant".
>> Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying
>> that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that
>> is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't
>> even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a
>> simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by
>> this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to
>> answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need
>> to post the questions over and over.
>>
>> What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on
>> this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm
>> open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And
>> largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained
>> high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic
>> level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I
>> certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination
>> of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing
>> repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a
>> repeat) will largely solv

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Doug,
As far as I know, I am the only one in the  NY office who did not
unsubscribe from the group. Looks at the stats ( provided by Tim) or just go
to the group page. Also, the number of users if I remember it correctly has
been in 9K for at least 6 month - meaning you have the same number of
people in and OUT - obviously you need to ask Matt if he has more detailed
stats on unsubscribes count.
Regards,
Anatole

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said
> that the group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of new users
> and questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has
> gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of
> traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago
> the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the
> traffic but then it stopped growing.
>
> So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is "stagnant".
> Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying
> that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that
> is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't
> even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a
> simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by
> this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to
> answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need
> to post the questions over and over.
>
> What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on
> this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm
> open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And
> largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained
> high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic
> level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I
> certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination
> of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing
> repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a
> repeat) will largely solve this problem.
>
> So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about?
>
> Doug
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Matt,
>>Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single
>> group causes stagnation.  If you agree with the numbers and reasoning behind
>> it, let us look at the proposition in that light. IMHO, the mentioned
>> measures while staying  within the same single group would probably extend
>> the number of users by 20-30%  byhoping to reduce number of posted messages
>> by the same percentage - but it is hardly the goal we are trying to achieve
>> here.
>>
>>   Realistically Adobe should be looking for place public pace to exchange
>> ideas and networking as well as getting trivial help. The product and
>> community are just too big for one group.  Let us split it up and let each
>> subgroup speak their own language. I would gladly moderate standalone
>> enterprise/j2ee/best practices track. But looking few times a day @ the
>> whole stream to fish out what might be related to the topic and having some
>> messages falling through the cracks might be not the recommended "best
>> practices" solution.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Anatole
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>   Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
>>>
>>> Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion.
>>>
>>> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
>>> the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One
>>> suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for "how-to"
>>> type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook
>>> appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in
>>> Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think
>>> the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer
>>> Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource
>>> wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them
>>> added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to
>>> the bottom of every email.
>>>
>>> 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the
>>> subject something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems
>>> reasonable. We could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX],
>>> [Enterprise], [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this,
>>> but by following a convention

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Doug McCune
Actually, this is worth going back to, because your initial email said that
the group was "stagnant" and has plateaued with the number of new users and
questions. Except your reason for bringing it up is that the traffic has
gotten too much for you to read every message. So clearly the level of
traffic isn't stagnant. Unless what you're saying is that about 6 months ago
the traffic reached a critical level where you couldn't deal with the
traffic but then it stopped growing.

So I guess I'm saying I question the claim that this list is "stagnant".
Almost 10,000 members and an average of 100 messages a day. Are you saying
that these stats have been the same for the past 6 months? And even if that
is true (although I'd like to see numbers before I accept that) then I don't
even necessarily think that this indicates that there's a problem. There's a
simple fact that a ton of questions have already been accurately answered by
this list. I would hope that the archived knowledge of the list serves to
answer more and more questions that newcomers have, meaning they don't need
to post the questions over and over.

What is the real problem? I haven't heard anyone say that the traffic on
this single list has stopped them from asking any questions (although I'm
open to the possibility that this is true, and just hasn't been voiced). And
largely I think that the number of people answering questions has remained
high and the response times are still good. I have heard that the traffic
level has stopped people from reading the questions that others ask (I
certainly skim and sometimes skip entire days). I'd argue that a combination
of self-moderated subject tagging, as well as more aggressive pointing
repeat questions to cached answered (and then tagging the entire thread as a
repeat) will largely solve this problem.

So do you have numbers that indicate the stagnation you are worried about?

Doug

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Matt,
>Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single
> group causes stagnation.  If you agree with the numbers and reasoning behind
> it, let us look at the proposition in that light. IMHO, the mentioned
> measures while staying  within the same single group would probably extend
> the number of users by 20-30%  byhoping to reduce number of posted messages
> by the same percentage - but it is hardly the goal we are trying to achieve
> here.
>
>   Realistically Adobe should be looking for place public pace to exchange
> ideas and networking as well as getting trivial help. The product and
> community are just too big for one group.  Let us split it up and let each
> subgroup speak their own language. I would gladly moderate standalone
> enterprise/j2ee/best practices track. But looking few times a day @ the
> whole stream to fish out what might be related to the topic and having some
> messages falling through the cracks might be not the recommended "best
> practices" solution.
>
> Sincerely,
> Anatole
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>   Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
>>
>> Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion.
>>
>> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
>> the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One
>> suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for "how-to"
>> type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook
>> appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in
>> Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think
>> the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer
>> Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource
>> wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them
>> added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to
>> the bottom of every email.
>>
>> 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject
>> something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We
>> could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise],
>> [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by
>> following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will
>> know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The
>> more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become.
>>
>> 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for
>> spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if
>> they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the
>> moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has
>> posting guidelines.
>>
>> 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually li

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Matt,
   Let us review the goal - in the original post I explained that single
group causes stagnation.  If you agree with the numbers and reasoning behind
it, let us look at the proposition in that light. IMHO, the mentioned
measures while staying  within the same single group would probably extend
the number of users by 20-30%  byhoping to reduce number of posted messages
by the same percentage - but it is hardly the goal we are trying to achieve
here.

  Realistically Adobe should be looking for place public pace to exchange
ideas and networking as well as getting trivial help. The product and
community are just too big for one group.  Let us split it up and let each
subgroup speak their own language. I would gladly moderate standalone
enterprise/j2ee/best practices track. But looking few times a day @ the
whole stream to fish out what might be related to the topic and having some
messages falling through the cracks might be not the recommended "best
practices" solution.

Sincerely,
Anatole




On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?
>
> Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion.
>
> 1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of
> the community. This will be about common problems that folks run into. One
> suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for "how-to"
> type questions. But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook
> appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ. I like the idea of doing it in
> Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google. Long-term I think
> the right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer
> Center. But for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource
> wiki. We can pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them
> added so they can take care of it. We can also add the link to the FAQ to
> the bottom of every email.
>
> 2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject
> something that indicates what you're talking about. Seems reasonable. We
> could use some of the topics that were being suggested. [UX], [Enterprise],
> [Data Services] [Announce], etc. We don't need to limit this, but by
> following a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will
> know if they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread. The
> more people follow this convention, the more efficient it will become.
>
> 3) We can get aggressive on the moderation. Rather than just scanning for
> spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if
> they meet the general criteria for asking a question. If they don't, the
> moderator can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has
> posting guidelines.
>
> 4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom
> of every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove
> the common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum
> etiquette and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems.
>
> If this sounds OK then what we need are the two kinds of moderators:
>
> 1. moderators for the forum itself who are willing to really look at all
> posts that are in moderation and analyze whether they should be passed
> through. If it is a poorly formed question, the post should be rejected with
> a pointer to the forum FAQ.
> 2. moderators for the FAQ who can pay attention to common questions and
> update the FAQ as appropriate.
>
> If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things
> set up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in
> the meantime.
>
> Matt
> 
>


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Matt Chotin
Hey folks, let's calm down a little here, K?

Alright, based on what I've been seeing people say, here's my suggestion.

1) Let's get an FAQ going that can be edited by moderators or members of the 
community.  This will be about common problems that folks run into.  One 
suggestion of course from me would be that we use the Cookbook for "how-to" 
type questions.  But for things that don't seem like they're cookbook 
appropriate, we can put them in the FAQ.  I like the idea of doing it in 
Buzzword, though Buzzword docs won't come up in Google.  Long-term I think the 
right place might be in whatever we set up in the Adobe Developer Center.  But 
for now how about we just allocate a page off of the opensource wiki.  We can 
pick some moderators who can edit the page and I will get them added so they 
can take care of it.  We can also add the link to the FAQ to the bottom of 
every email.

2) Some folks suggested that you either mark in the body or in the subject 
something that indicates what you're talking about.  Seems reasonable.  We 
could use some of the topics that were being suggested.  [UX], [Enterprise], 
[Data Services] [Announce], etc.  We don't need to limit this, but by following 
a convention of placing the general area of discussion, folks will know if 
they're going to be capable of getting involved in the thread.  The more people 
follow this convention, the more efficient it will become.

3) We can get aggressive on the moderation.  Rather than just scanning for 
spam, moderators can actually look at the posts by new users and decide if they 
meet the general criteria for asking a question.  If they don't, the moderator 
can reject the post and point the user to the forum FAQ which has posting 
guidelines.

4) We can update the flexcoders FAQ (which is actually linked at the bottom of 
every single post) to include the updated posting guidelines and remove the 
common questions section so that the forum FAQ is only about forum etiquette 
and the coding FAQ is about the actual problems.

If this sounds OK then what we need are the two kinds of moderators:

 1.  moderators for the forum itself who are willing to really look at all 
posts that are in moderation and analyze whether they should be passed through. 
 If it is a poorly formed question, the post should be rejected with a pointer 
to the forum FAQ.
 2.  moderators for the FAQ who can pay attention to common questions and 
update the FAQ as appropriate.

If we're all on board, send those moderators to me and we can get things set 
up. And folks can start following the tagging convention instantly in the 
meantime.

Matt


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Michael Schmalle
Trust me Amy,

I'm not complaining about anything.

If you want to put that stupid (...) after your little one liner, what do
you expect me to say? Thank you for pointing out my flaws???

We were talking about cross posting and subject lines.

Basically my answer was due to your rudeness.

Talk about netiquette, new word for me.

Mike

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Amy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Michael Schmalle"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > How bout people starting to trim their messages...?
> >
> > heh, yeah well that one has been asked before, I'm guilty due to
> trying to
> > get other things done in the day.
> >
> > Gmail doesn't make it easy since the 'hide quoted text' is always
> collapsed.
> >
> > But really, I could care less about trimmed messages, it's what we are
> > talking about that matters.
>
> Why complain about the netiquette of others if you're not actually
> interested in following netiquette yourself? You don't care about
> trimming netiquette, some users don't care about using ridiculous
> subjects, some users don't know where to search before asking seemingly
> stupid questions. What do you see as being the difference?
>
>  
>



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Multiple lists enforce thinking if it is appropriate before posting.
Moderators can ban/redirect unappropriate message. Flexcomponents often
redirect new users to flexcoders if the question is not about components.
You almost never see questions on UI design in weborb.

All in all - let us have the simplest thing possible - multiple list - we
will see how people position themselves, and which parts of flex are
actually position to grow. In old moderated world of CompuServe product of
Flex scope would have 15-20 lists and that would give very concise picture
of the product feature, median developer level, much faster/easier
search and better networking.

Thank you,
Anatole Tartakovsky
Farata
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Doug McCune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> > How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject
> line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting
> ourselves with the mail rules?
> >
>
>
> You can't force people to add keywords to their subjects (I'd also argues
> that any categories you come up with are inherently flawed and topics
> usually apply to many categories), since people unfamiliar with the list
> won't do it, and the biggest problem I see has to do with people new to Flex
> and this list (note that I highly support new developers getting involved
> and asking questions, but they should do a little research first and not ask
> someone to do their work for them). If people start tagging their subjects
> it might catch on and people might be smart enough to see the traffic on the
> list and adhere to the standard before posting, but I give it a very small
> chance.
>
> And if someone replied and changed the subject line then threading gets all
> jacked, which is why I suggested someone replying with a certain tag in the
> body of the message that we can use to filter the threads (not to categorize
> legit threads, simply to filter out illegitimate ones).
>
> Doug
>
> 
>


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Doug McCune
> How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject
line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting
ourselves with the mail rules?
>


You can't force people to add keywords to their subjects (I'd also argues
that any categories you come up with are inherently flawed and topics
usually apply to many categories), since people unfamiliar with the list
won't do it, and the biggest problem I see has to do with people new to Flex
and this list (note that I highly support new developers getting involved
and asking questions, but they should do a little research first and not ask
someone to do their work for them). If people start tagging their subjects
it might catch on and people might be smart enough to see the traffic on the
list and adhere to the standard before posting, but I give it a very small
chance.

And if someone replied and changed the subject line then threading gets all
jacked, which is why I suggested someone replying with a certain tag in the
body of the message that we can use to filter the threads (not to categorize
legit threads, simply to filter out illegitimate ones).

Doug


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Michael Schmalle
> How bout people starting to trim their messages...?

heh, yeah well that one has been asked before, I'm guilty due to trying to
get other things done in the day.

Gmail doesn't make it easy since the 'hide quoted text' is always collapsed.

But really, I could care less about trimmed messages, it's what we are
talking about that matters.

Mike



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, John McCormack wrote:
> How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject
> line with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting
> ourselves with the mail rules?

This makes the list less accessible to new comers.

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread John McCormack
How about an agreed list of acronyms that we use to prepend the Subject line 
with: NEWB, MXML, AS3, DESIGN, HTTP, ALL, etc., and we do the sorting ourselves 
with the mail rules?

John


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Daniel Freiman
I agree that the definition of Enterprise is fuzzy here.  It's a definition
of how well something is supposed to work.  It's technology agnostic (in
theory only).  Everything that interacts with the Flex could go in this
group if the project specifications demand a certain level of application
functioning.

I love the idea of a UI/UX group, but I think it needs to be defined in less
general terms as well.  If I'm trying to upgrade the UX of a datagrid, that
might go in this group, but I imagine that this group wouldn't originally be
intended for this purpose and might not have the expertise to solve this
problem.  This just needs to be more tightly defined, I'm guessing towards
the designer side of the community/users.

I think the actionscript group idea would have many cross postings.  Imagine
you're a coder who only uses actionscript.  Every time you post you have to
figure out which group to post to.  When you get this one wrong people are
going to get annoyed.  Also, it may be hard to know if you're problem is
actionscript based when you start.  You may get an error in the framework
which turns out to be because you have a complicated data algorithm in
actionscript that screwed up first.

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:32 AM, Josh McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Drop actionscriptcoders and rename enterprise to RPC (or FlexRemoting or
> something), and I'm in. 95% of funky flex question are actionscript
> questions - unless it's an "advanced actionscript" list for things like VM
> internals stuff, in which case case perhaps it just needs a name change.
>
> Everybody likes to think what they're doing is "enterprise". What we're
> doing definitely counts (Oracle *loves* us), but we're all SOAP - we don't
> use LCDS at all, so if people think enterprise is mainly for LCDS stuff
> we're going to get confusion.
>
> Didn't know about ApolloCoders, I think I'll go subscribe :)
>
> Definitely like the idea of an announce list, it could be moderated or you
> could subscribe to it as a daily / weekly digest.
>
> -Josh
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>   Existing
>> - FlexCoders
>> - FlexComponents
>> - ApolloCoders
>> - FlexJobs
>>
>> New
>> - EnterpriseFlex
>> - FlexUIDesign
>> - FlexAnnouncements
>> - ActionscriptCoders
>>
>> ?
>>
>> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Bjorn
>> Schultheiss"
>>
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > 1. 101
>> > Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already
>> > handling this?
>> >
>> > > > 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
>> > The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting?
>> > Is is to "show off" new ideas or syntax questions.
>> >
>> > > > 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
>> > Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : )
>> >
>> > > > 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
>> > Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ?
>> >
>> > > > 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks
>> > Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Josh
>> McDonald"  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole.
>> > >
>> > > It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?)
>> > meta-list that
>> > > shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could
>> read the
>> > > "all" list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good
>> > > common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if
>> > that's
>> > > feasible.
>> > >
>> > > -Josh
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
>> > > anatole.tartakovsky@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Matt,
>> > > >
>> > > > Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
>> > > > 1. 101
>> > > > 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
>> > > > 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
>> > > > 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
>> > > > 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you
>> > > > Anatole Tartakovsky
>> > > > Farata Systems
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin  wrote:t
>> > > > Practices/Frameworks
>> > > >
>> > > > I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend
>> > capping at
>> > > >> 5 absolute max.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" >
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Hey guys,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do
>> > for the
>> > > >> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were
>> > right in
>> > > >> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's
>> > point that
>> > > >> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to
>> > thrive. We'll
>> > > >> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like
>> > it's me
>> > > >> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no
>> > > >> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forum

Auto: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread yavuz
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Michael Schmalle
Wow,

This sounds like deja vu.

Months ago I got off this list becasue that was exactly what was happening
(ridiculous posts, repeats). But I got back on a month ago just to get back
into the community.

When you have put your time in a list(which I have, this one and
flexcomponents), it starts to get discouraging when you do get 'these posts'
that are barking at you because they are under some rat race time line and
can't figure anything out themselves OR RTFM!

I decided to give this group one more try. If it doesn't work out, I will
have to get off my lazy ass and blog more. :)

As Doug said, if you don't have Gmail and don't know how to use it... get a
clue. As far as splitting this group, good luck. This is like a bi monthly
PMS state this list goes through. Look at flex components, it hardly has any
posts within the last 2-3 months, why?

BECAUSE these people are asking these component questions on flexcoders!

Well fellow developers, good luck leading the horse to water. ;-)

Mike

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
> > A corresponding wordpress blog/website for each list updated with info
> > by the moderators and contributors.
> > It wouldn't have to be an InsideRIA style blog, just info relating to
> > the list.
>
> This would just be static, on the order of months if not years. What's the
> point ?
>
> --
> Tom Chiverton
>
> 
>
> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
>
> Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
> A corresponding wordpress blog/website for each list updated with info
> by the moderators and contributors.
> It wouldn't have to be an InsideRIA style blog, just info relating to
> the list.

This would just be static, on the order of months if not years. What's the 
point ?

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-17 Thread Tom Chiverton
On Tuesday 17 Jun 2008, Doug McCune wrote:
> The biggest issue I see is simply that there are way too many questions
> being asked that have already been answered (or that don't deserve answers
> because of the ridiculous way they are asked). 

Having many places to ask silly* questions will not stop people asking 
them :-)

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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Josh McDonald
I like it :)

FlexCodersBestPractices could be a very useful forum. Although there might
be some crossover between UserExperience and the existing FlexComponents
list?

Now, how do we go about some sort of process to see what kind of support
there is on the list?

Also, if we don't have the support of the Adobe cats that post here, the
idea is definitely dead in the water. They're a *big* help and have the kind
of inside information that takes the rest of us quite a while to replicate
:)

-Josh

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   - FlexCodersAnnouncements
> - FlexCodersRemoteServices
> - FlexCodersUserExperience
> - FlexCodersBestPractices
>
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Josh
> McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Drop actionscriptcoders and rename enterprise to RPC (or FlexRemoting or
> > something), and I'm in. 95% of funky flex question are actionscript
> > questions - unless it's an "advanced actionscript" list for things
> like VM
> > internals stuff, in which case case perhaps it just needs a name change.
> >
> > Everybody likes to think what they're doing is "enterprise". What we're
> > doing definitely counts (Oracle *loves* us), but we're all SOAP - we
> don't
> > use LCDS at all, so if people think enterprise is mainly for LCDS stuff
> > we're going to get confusion.
> >
> > Didn't know about ApolloCoders, I think I'll go subscribe :)
> >
> > Definitely like the idea of an announce list, it could be moderated
> or you
> > could subscribe to it as a daily / weekly digest.
> >
> > -Josh
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Existing
> > > - FlexCoders
> > > - FlexComponents
> > > - ApolloCoders
> > > - FlexJobs
> > >
> > > New
> > > - EnterpriseFlex
> > > - FlexUIDesign
> > > - FlexAnnouncements
> > > - ActionscriptCoders
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
> > >  40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Bjorn
> > > Schultheiss"
> > >
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > 1. 101
> > > > Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already
> > > > handling this?
> > > >
> > > > > > 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
> > > > The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting?
> > > > Is is to "show off" new ideas or syntax questions.
> > > >
> > > > > > 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
> > > > Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : )
> > > >
> > > > > > 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
> > > > Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ?
> > > >
> > > > > > 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks
> > > > Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
> , "Josh
>
> > > McDonald"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?)
> > > > meta-list that
> > > > > shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could
> > > read the
> > > > > "all" list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a
> pretty good
> > > > > common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no
> idea if
> > > > that's
> > > > > feasible.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Josh
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
> > > > > anatole.tartakovsky@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Matt,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
> > > > > > 1. 101
> > > > > > 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
> > > > > > 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
> > > > > > 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
> > > > > > 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of
> folks there
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you
> > > > > > Anatole Tartakovsky
> > > > > > Farata Systems
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin  wrote:t
> > > > > > Practices/Frameworks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend
> > > > capping at
> > > > > >> 5 absolute max.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin"
> >
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hey guys,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do
> > > > for the
> > > > > >> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we
> were
> > > > right in
> > > > > >> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see
> Anatole's
> > > > point that
> > > > > >> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to
> > > > thrive. We'll
> > > > > >> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like
> > > > it's me
> > > > > >> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active),
> but no
> > > > > >> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are
> > > > definitely
> > > > > >> lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email.
> > > There is a
> > > > > >> proj

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Josh McDonald
Drop actionscriptcoders and rename enterprise to RPC (or FlexRemoting or
something), and I'm in. 95% of funky flex question are actionscript
questions - unless it's an "advanced actionscript" list for things like VM
internals stuff, in which case case perhaps it just needs a name change.

Everybody likes to think what they're doing is "enterprise". What we're
doing definitely counts (Oracle *loves* us), but we're all SOAP - we don't
use LCDS at all, so if people think enterprise is mainly for LCDS stuff
we're going to get confusion.

Didn't know about ApolloCoders, I think I'll go subscribe :)

Definitely like the idea of an announce list, it could be moderated or you
could subscribe to it as a daily / weekly digest.

-Josh

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bjorn Schultheiss <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Existing
> - FlexCoders
> - FlexComponents
> - ApolloCoders
> - FlexJobs
>
> New
> - EnterpriseFlex
> - FlexUIDesign
> - FlexAnnouncements
> - ActionscriptCoders
>
> ?
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Bjorn
> Schultheiss"
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > > 1. 101
> > Is creating a new group for this necessary or is flexcoders already
> > handling this?
> >
> > > > 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
> > The name seems too abstract, what area are we targeting?
> > Is is to "show off" new ideas or syntax questions.
> >
> > > > 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
> > Love it! Can we replace UI with UX : )
> >
> > > > 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
> > Does this include WebOrb/Blaze/LCDS ?
> >
> > > > 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks
> > Apollocoders exists. not sure what the traffic is like.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Josh
> McDonald"  wrote:
> > >
> > > That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole.
> > >
> > > It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?)
> > meta-list that
> > > shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could
> read the
> > > "all" list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good
> > > common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if
> > that's
> > > feasible.
> > >
> > > -Josh
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
> > > anatole.tartakovsky@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Matt,
> > > >
> > > > Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
> > > > 1. 101
> > > > 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
> > > > 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
> > > > 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
> > > > 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there
> > > >
> > > > Thank you
> > > > Anatole Tartakovsky
> > > > Farata Systems
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin  wrote:t
> > > > Practices/Frameworks
> > > >
> > > > I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend
> > capping at
> > > >> 5 absolute max.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hey guys,
> > > >>
> > > >> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do
> > for the
> > > >> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were
> > right in
> > > >> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's
> > point that
> > > >> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to
> > thrive. We'll
> > > >> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like
> > it's me
> > > >> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no
> > > >> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are
> > definitely
> > > >> lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email.
> There is a
> > > >> project going on within Adobe to improve the experience
> > drastically, and we
> > > >> definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince
> > everyone to
> > > >> come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a
> > number of
> > > >> months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will
> > continue to help
> > > >> users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever
> > new lists
> > > >> are created.
> > > >>
> > > >> Matt
> > > >>
> > > >> On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss"
> > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
> > > >> I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.
> > > >>
> > > >> Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..
> > > >>
> > > >> I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.
> > > >>
> > > >> Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back
> > on the
> > > >> list.
> > > >>
> > > >> Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
> > > >>  40yahoogroups.com>
> >  > > >> flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > ,
> > "Anatole
> > > >> Tartakovsky"
> > > >>  wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Dear All,
> > > >> > Flexcoders has huge proble

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Matt Chotin
Just as a reminder, there is apollocoders which is out of date naming-wise but 
was intended for AIR coding questions.  You'd want to decide if you want a 
specialized Flex list for AIR-related questions.

I would be concerned that this categorization would often lead to folks not 
knowing which list to mail to and they would end up cross-posting.

You'd probably want a community list too right?  For announcements of projects 
and whatnot?  Otherwise you're guaranteed for cross-posting.

Matt


On 6/16/08 8:37 PM, "Anatole Tartakovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Matt,

 Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
1. 101
2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there

Thank you
Anatole Tartakovsky
Farata Systems

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:t 
Practices/Frameworks



I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW.  Would recommend capping at 5 
absolute max.



On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 > wrote:

Hey guys,

If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger 
community then I'm not going to stop you.  I think we were right in the past to 
recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has 
stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive.  We'll certainly try 
to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you 
know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go.  
The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't 
access them via email.  There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the 
experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and 
hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); 
but it's still a number of months away at the earliest.  I would hope that 
folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to 
handle whatever new! lists are created.

Matt

On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
> wrote:

I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.

Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..

I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.

Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the
list.

Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
  

 >
 > , "Anatole Tartakovsky"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
> stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
growing and
> dropping members as fast as it gets them.
>
>I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
ago and
> needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+
> messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
minutes that
> day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people
in the
> company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
developers I know
> either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
diminishing the
> quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
developers and
> looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
>
> Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group
for all
> of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
forced out.
> I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new
> user groups
>
> I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for
> Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more
> systematic way.
>
> I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
> convenience).
>
> Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
>
> Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   
>  
>  > 
>  >
>
> Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Josh McDonald
That's not a bad list of categories at all Anatole.

It would be best if there's still some sort of (read-only?) meta-list that
shows all messages, and if it were smart enough that you could read the
"all" list and replies went to the correct lists it'd be a pretty good
common ground I think. I'm no mailing-list-guy though, so no idea if that's
feasible.

-Josh

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Matt,
>
>  Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
> 1. 101
> 2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
> 3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
> 4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
> 5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there
>
> Thank you
> Anatole Tartakovsky
> Farata Systems
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:t
> Practices/Frameworks
>
>I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at
>> 5 absolute max.
>>
>>
>> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the
>> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in
>> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that
>> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll
>> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me
>> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no
>> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely
>> lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a
>> project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we
>> definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to
>> come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of
>> months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help
>> users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists
>> are created.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss" <[EMAIL 
>> PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
>> I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.
>>
>> Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..
>>
>> I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.
>>
>> Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the
>> list.
>>
>> Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.
>>
>> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com  > flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com >> flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > , "Anatole
>> Tartakovsky"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear All,
>> > Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
>> > stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
>> growing and
>> > dropping members as fast as it gets them.
>> >
>> > I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
>> ago and
>> > needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+
>> > messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
>> minutes that
>> > day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people
>> in the
>> > company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
>> developers I know
>> > either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
>> diminishing the
>> > quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
>> developers and
>> > looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
>> >
>> > Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group
>> for all
>> > of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
>> forced out.
>> > I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new
>> > user groups
>> >
>> > I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for
>> > Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more
>> > systematic way.
>> >
>> > I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
>> > convenience).
>> >
>> > Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
>> >
>> > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > flex101%40yahoogroups.com >> flex101%40yahoogroups.com >
>> >
>> > Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
>> >> >
>> >
>> > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL 
>> > PROTECTED]> flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
>> >> >
>> >
>> > List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com 
>> >> >
>> >
>> > EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/
>> >
>> > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com 
>> >> >
>> >
>> > Subscribe: [EMAIL 
>> > PROTECTED]> enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
>> >

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Josh McDonald
Matt - I like the idea of a few lists, but agree 12 is way too many. I
*hate* the way yahoo handles its accounts, and I'd love to move to a list
(or lists) hosted and blessed by Adobe, but definitely never going to happen
if it's not accessible via email, unless there's some *seriously* flexible
(custom?) RSS feeds I could plug into my reader... :)

-Josh

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5
> absolute max.
>
>
> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the
> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in
> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that
> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll
> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me
> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no
> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely
> lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a
> project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we
> definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to
> come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of
> months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help
> users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists
> are created.
>
> Matt
>
> On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss" <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
> I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.
>
> Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..
>
> I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.
>
> Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the
> list.
>
> Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com   flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > , "Anatole
> Tartakovsky"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> > Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
> > stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
> growing and
> > dropping members as fast as it gets them.
> >
> > I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
> ago and
> > needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+
> > messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
> minutes that
> > day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people
> in the
> > company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
> developers I know
> > either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
> diminishing the
> > quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
> developers and
> > looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
> >
> > Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group
> for all
> > of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
> forced out.
> > I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new
> > user groups
> >
> > I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for
> > Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more
> > systematic way.
> >
> > I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
> > convenience).
> >
> > Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
> >
> > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  flex101%40yahoogroups.com > flex101%40yahoogroups.com >
> >
> > Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com 
> > >
> >
> > EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/
> >
> > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com 
> > >
> >
> > Subscribe: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] enterpriseflex-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > List owner: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] enterpriseflex-owner%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > FlexUI
> > FlexDesign
> >
> > FlexSDK
> > FlexDeployment
> >
> > FlexFlash
> >
> > FlexFrameworks
> >
> > FlexBestPractices
> >
> > EnterpriseFlex:
> >
> > FlexBlazeDS:
> >
> > weborb:
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Anatole Tartakovsky
> > 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Anatole Tartakovsky
Matt,
 Splitting the last 500 topics in groups it would be:
1. 101
2. Coding (AS3/MXML)
3. Design and UI ( Flash/Components/CSS/Skin)
4. Enterprise/Best Practices/Frameworks
5. AIR - not big yet, but definitely a separate group of folks there

Thank you
Anatole Tartakovsky
Farata Systems

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Matt Chotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:t
Practices/Frameworks

>   I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW. Would recommend capping at 5
> absolute max.
>
>
> On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the
> larger community then I'm not going to stop you. I think we were right in
> the past to recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that
> traffic has stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive. We'll
> certainly try to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me
> doing much but you know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no
> guarantees on how it will go. The Adobe forums themselves are definitely
> lacking, primarily because we can't access them via email. There is a
> project going on within Adobe to improve the experience drastically, and we
> definitely intend to split forums there (and hopefully convince everyone to
> come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); but it's still a number of
> months away at the earliest. I would hope that folks will continue to help
> users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to handle whatever new lists
> are created.
>
> Matt
>
> On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss" <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
> I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.
>
> Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..
>
> I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.
>
> Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the
> list.
>
> Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com   flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > , "Anatole
> Tartakovsky"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> > Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
> > stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
> growing and
> > dropping members as fast as it gets them.
> >
> > I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
> ago and
> > needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+
> > messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
> minutes that
> > day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people
> in the
> > company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
> developers I know
> > either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
> diminishing the
> > quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
> developers and
> > looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
> >
> > Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group
> for all
> > of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
> forced out.
> > I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new
> > user groups
> >
> > I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for
> > Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more
> > systematic way.
> >
> > I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
> > convenience).
> >
> > Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
> >
> > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  flex101%40yahoogroups.com > flex101%40yahoogroups.com >
> >
> > Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] flex101-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flex101-owner%40yahoogroups.com 
> > >
> >
> > EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/
> >
> > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] enterpriseflex%40yahoogroups.com 
> > >
> >
> > Subscribe: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] enterpriseflex-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] enterpriseflex-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > List owner: [EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED] enterpriseflex-owner%40yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> > FlexUI
> > FlexDesign
> >
> > FlexSDK
> > FlexDeployment
> >
> > FlexFlash
> >
> > FlexFrameworks
> >
> > FlexBestPractices
> >
> > EnterpriseFlex:
> >
> > FlexBlazeDS:
> >
> > weborb:
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Anatole Tartakovsky
> > Farata Systems
> >
>
>  
>


Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Josh McDonald
I'm not against spinning off "remoting" ie LCDS, Blaze, SOAP, REST etc into
another group, but like others I think the mix of vets and noobs is a good
thing.

As for inbox management, here's what I do that works for me (gmail btw):

All messages from the list go straight into "archive", not my inbox

All threads I've posted to get a star with a mail filter

Any threads I'm interested in, I star.

When I come to see a large number of unread threads from the list, I open
any unread messages in starred threads. Then I scan the remaining unread
subjects for anything that I might be able to help with, or that I might
like to know the answer to - I open messages, and either reply or star them
if I'm interested / I can help.

Anything else, I simply "mark read" and move on. I don't need to read every
message, and neither do you. There's a fair few people here who are willing
to help, and we're on different time zones. I don't think many reasonable
questions are being overlooked.

During the day, the list is low-enough traffic that I can see 5 - 10
messages at a time, and I just open anything that looks remotely interesting
or I think I can probably help with, and "mark read" the rest.

When there's just too many damned new messages, I read only the starred
threads and mark the rest all as read without paying attention.

I have been thinking about filters that scan incoming message bodies for
things I'm interested in / know some about (such as SOAP and various XML
encoders / decoders), but haven't bothered to do that yet.

-Josh

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Tim Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   My appologies Anatole; I mispelled your name. No offense intended.
>
> -TH
>
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Tim
> Hoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Anotole,
> >
> > This topic has been brought up several times since this list was
> > established. At times, it does seem that the post topics are very
> > diverse. However, with the clear exception of flexcomponents, the
> > suggestion to split the list into sub groups has been consistantly
> > avoided; to reduce the number of feeds that the primary responders
> to
> > the list have to monitor. It would be near impossible for the Adobe
> > experts, and others on this list, to regulary respond to the wide
> > variety of posts that are made if they had to watch 12 different
> lists.
> > Agreed, like RSS feeds, the inbox gets full rather quickly. Just
> using
> > the Yahoo interface, to scan messages, works great and doesn't take
> up
> > much time at all though. And yes, there are frequent questions by
> > people that are new to flex. I look at helping people that are just
> > starting as paying it forward. The mix on this list is diverse, but
> > people can always go to the Adobe Flex forums; if they want more
> > specialized focus. I don't want to sound like I'm not agreeing with
> > your proposal; it has merit. However, it would probably splinter
> the
> > group too much. If anything, I think the quality and focus would be
> > improved if people tried to limit the posts/responses to Flex
> related
> > issues. That would probably reduce the inbox clutter by 1/3. :-)
> >
> > -TH
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Anatole Tartakovsky"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > > Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
> > > stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
> > growing and
> > > dropping members as fast as it gets them.
> > >
> > > I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
> ago
> > and
> > > needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box
> get
> > 100+
> > > messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
> minutes
> > that
> > > day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most
> people in
> > the
> > > company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
> developers
> > I know
> > > either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
> > diminishing the
> > > quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
> developers
> > and
> > > looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
> > >
> > > Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the
> group
> > for all
> > > of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
> forced
> > out.
> > > I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?)
> targeted
> > new
> > > user groups
> > >
> > > I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi
> topics
> > for
> > > Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts
> in
> > more
> > > systematic way.
> > >
> > > I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
> > > convenience).
> > >
> > > Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
> > >
> > > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > >
> > > Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTE

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Matt Chotin
I do think 12 is way too high a number BTW.  Would recommend capping at 5 
absolute max.


On 6/16/08 8:28 PM, "Matt Chotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hey guys,

If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger 
community then I'm not going to stop you.  I think we were right in the past to 
recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has 
stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive.  We'll certainly try 
to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you 
know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go.  
The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't 
access them via email.  There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the 
experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and 
hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); 
but it's still a number of months away at the earliest.  I would hope that 
folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to 
handle whatever new lists are created.

Matt


On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.

Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..

I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.

Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the
list.

Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
 , 
"Anatole Tartakovsky"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
> stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
growing and
> dropping members as fast as it gets them.
>
>I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
ago and
> needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+
> messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
minutes that
> day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people
in the
> company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
developers I know
> either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
diminishing the
> quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
developers and
> looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
>
> Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group
for all
> of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
forced out.
> I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new
> user groups
>
> I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for
> Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more
> systematic way.
>
> I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
> convenience).
>
> Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
>
> Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/
>
> Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> FlexUI
> FlexDesign
>
> FlexSDK
> FlexDeployment
>
> FlexFlash
>
> FlexFrameworks
>
> FlexBestPractices
>
> EnterpriseFlex:
>
> FlexBlazeDS:
>
> weborb:
>
> Sincerely,
> Anatole Tartakovsky
> Farata Systems
>





Re: [flexcoders] Re: Splitting FlexCoders in smaller, focused groups

2008-06-16 Thread Matt Chotin
Hey guys,

If you think that splitting the lists is the right thing to do for the larger 
community then I'm not going to stop you.  I think we were right in the past to 
recommend against the split, but I can see Anatole's point that traffic has 
stagnated and we'd certainly like the community to thrive.  We'll certainly try 
to pay attention to as much as possible (not like it's me doing much but you 
know some Adobe folks are quite active), but no guarantees on how it will go.  
The Adobe forums themselves are definitely lacking, primarily because we can't 
access them via email.  There is a project going on within Adobe to improve the 
experience drastically, and we definitely intend to split forums there (and 
hopefully convince everyone to come back over and move away from Yahoo Groups); 
but it's still a number of months away at the earliest.  I would hope that 
folks will continue to help users of all levels, and we'll need moderators to 
handle whatever new lists are created.

Matt


On 6/16/08 8:17 PM, "Bjorn Schultheiss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




I like the idea of splitting topics into different lists.
I also like Anatole's suggestions for list types.

Flexcoders has become to "over-bloated"..

I would be in favour for looking at topics that I'm interested in.

Perhaps this will get more of the experienced contributors back on the
list.

Imagine if OSFlash had only one mailing list.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com 
 , 
"Anatole Tartakovsky"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>Flexcoders has huge problem. In the last 15 month it is very much
> stagnant in terms of message count and participation. It is not
growing and
> dropping members as fast as it gets them.
>
>I believe this group has overgrown the optimal size about a year
ago and
> needs to be divided in more focused smaller groups. My mail box get 100+
> messages a day on all kinds of topic - unless I can spend 30+
minutes that
> day to sort them out it goes directly into garbage can. Most people
in the
> company unsubscribed from it 18 month ago. Most of veteran
developers I know
> either unsubscribed or stopped looking in this mess greatly
diminishing the
> quality of the responses. As a result group mostly host new
developers and
> looses most of experienced ones after very short period of time.
>
> Further delay of breaking this group hinders usefulness of the group
for all
> of us as now we have significant amount of users that are being
forced out.
> I believe it is time to archive flexcoders and branch (12?) targeted new
> user groups
>
> I would like to see people suggesting user subgroups and WiKi topics for
> Flex community site to go with each group - providing best posts in more
> systematic way.
>
> I suggest the following Yahoo groups ( created couple for your
> convenience).
>
> Flex101: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flex101/
>
> Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> EnterpriseFlex: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/enterpriseflex/
>
> Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
>
> FlexUI
> FlexDesign
>
> FlexSDK
> FlexDeployment
>
> FlexFlash
>
> FlexFrameworks
>
> FlexBestPractices
>
> EnterpriseFlex:
>
> FlexBlazeDS:
>
> weborb:
>
> Sincerely,
> Anatole Tartakovsky
> Farata Systems
>