Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[k5nwa]

At 05:13 PM 2/3/2010, Brian Lloyd wrote:


Yes. Do you remember me saying, "it appears to be an aliasing product
of the sample-rate conversion," back at the beginning of this thread?

Remember, if you have sampled at 96kHz the Nyquist frequency is 48kHz.
When you resample to 48kHz the Nyquist frequency becomes 24kHz so you
must low-pass filter to eliminate all power above 24kHz otherwise you
will see a "reflection" that pivots around the Nyquist frequency. When
you again resample to 8kHz the Nyquist frequency becomes 4kHz so you
must again low-pass filter to eliminate all the power above 4kHz so
you don't see the aliasing "reflection". Apparently not all
sample-rate conversion libraries are created equal. It might be nice
to find out which ones work best and then get everyone to use that.

You know, it would be *SO* much easier to do just *one* sample-rate
conversion and do the low-pass filtering at the highest sample rate to
eliminate aliasing artifacts.

Hmm, wouldn't it be nice if the CODECs communicated the desired sample
rate to the "receiver"?

Just thinking out loud here.

--
73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL



The proper low pass filter will also improve the Dynamic range of the 
signal by increasing the accuracy of the samples.



Cecil
k5nwa
<  www.softrockradio.org  > <  www.qrpradio.com  >
<  http://parts.softrockradio.org/  >

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway. 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Brian Lloyd]

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Joe Knapp  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Brian Lloyd  wrote:
>> It appears to me to be
>> aliasing products which make me suspect sample-rate conversion used in
>> either fldigi, dm780, VAC, PowerSDR, or some combination thereof.
>
> True--it's not a harmonic. When the PSK31 signal is at the lower end
> of the ~3KHz passband, the spur is at the high end. As the signal
> frequency moves up the passband, the spur moves down. They cross in
> more or less the middle of the passband, and so on until the situation
> is reversed.

Yes. Do you remember me saying, "it appears to be an aliasing product
of the sample-rate conversion," back at the beginning of this thread?

Remember, if you have sampled at 96kHz the Nyquist frequency is 48kHz.
When you resample to 48kHz the Nyquist frequency becomes 24kHz so you
must low-pass filter to eliminate all power above 24kHz otherwise you
will see a "reflection" that pivots around the Nyquist frequency. When
you again resample to 8kHz the Nyquist frequency becomes 4kHz so you
must again low-pass filter to eliminate all the power above 4kHz so
you don't see the aliasing "reflection". Apparently not all
sample-rate conversion libraries are created equal. It might be nice
to find out which ones work best and then get everyone to use that.

You know, it would be *SO* much easier to do just *one* sample-rate
conversion and do the low-pass filtering at the highest sample rate to
eliminate aliasing artifacts.

Hmm, wouldn't it be nice if the CODECs communicated the desired sample
rate to the "receiver"?

Just thinking out loud here.

-- 
73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Joe Knapp]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Brian Lloyd  wrote:
> It appears to me to be
> aliasing products which make me suspect sample-rate conversion used in
> either fldigi, dm780, VAC, PowerSDR, or some combination thereof.

True--it's not a harmonic. When the PSK31 signal is at the lower end
of the ~3KHz passband, the spur is at the high end. As the signal
frequency moves up the passband, the spur moves down. They cross in
more or less the middle of the passband, and so on until the situation
is reversed.

Joe

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Bob McGwier]

I was going to say this perfectly demonstrates both the great power 
(sensitivity) of the panadapter and our greatest curse at the same time. 
 I was going to give my usual long winded commentary but I must admit 
that your 3 letter comment is right to the point.



There are design compromises in our resampler (which will be eliminated 
in an all new version of things later by using the arbitrary phase 
resampler which will have 120 dB noise floor and cost FEWER ticks by 
lots than the current one).  But VAC itself has a resampler or uses the 
WinBLOWS resampler (horrible) depending on the interface, driver, etc.



YO PEOPLE.  When you have 140 dB of dynamic range displayed in front of 
you as in our panadapter with standard settings,  get an idea that is 
FOURTEEN orders of magnitude in power, seven in voltage.  10^14 is a 
very large number and is huge in signal processing even if it is about 
the right amount when discussing next year's US government deficit spending.


;-)


73's
Bob
N4HY

On 2/3/2010 6:37 AM, Lee A Crocker wrote:

Apparently little known fact:

If you are 80dB down from a 27 watt signal you are transmitting  0.027 watts

BFD

73  W9OY






--
(Co)Author: DttSP, Quiktrak, PowerSDR, GnuRadio
Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC.
"the only people for me are the mad ones,
 the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
 mad to be saved, desirous of everything at
 the same time, the ones who never yawn or
 say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn
 like fabulous yellow roman candles" Kerouac
Twitter:rwmcgwier
Active: Facebook,Myspace,LinkedIn


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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Lee A Crocker]

Apparently little known fact:

If you are 80dB down from a 27 watt signal you are transmitting  0.027 
watts  

BFD

73  W9OY



  
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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[David Beumer W0DHB]

I didn't realize that DM780 opened the VAC at 8kHz-- Not a problem.. 
I've been using DM780 for about 2 years.. I've always kept the PowerSDR 
sample rate at 48000.
So as long as PowerSDR opens the VAC at a sample rate that is a multiple 
of 8kHz all will be well.


Definitely preserve your brain cells for the good stuff, not 
re-inventing the wheel !!



Simon HB9DRV wrote:

No,

DM780 opens the output device (Soundcard, VAC) at 8kHz. Surely you can set
the VAC to use 48kHz (8kHz * 6) & PowerSDR at 48kHz?

You do not have to use the same rate at each end of the VAC - the driver
will convert the sample rate (with a little help from Windows).

I really don't want to write my own VAC, I don't think the brain cells could
take the strain!

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


  

-Original Message-
From: David Beumer W0DHB [mailto:d...@w0dhb.net]
Sent: 02 February 2010 20:01

DM780 will use PowerSDR VAC sample rate if the VAC is opened by PoweSDR
before invoking DM780 , correct ?







  


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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Simon HB9DRV]

No,

DM780 opens the output device (Soundcard, VAC) at 8kHz. Surely you can set
the VAC to use 48kHz (8kHz * 6) & PowerSDR at 48kHz?

You do not have to use the same rate at each end of the VAC - the driver
will convert the sample rate (with a little help from Windows).

I really don't want to write my own VAC, I don't think the brain cells could
take the strain!

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: David Beumer W0DHB [mailto:d...@w0dhb.net]
> Sent: 02 February 2010 20:01
> 
> DM780 will use PowerSDR VAC sample rate if the VAC is opened by PoweSDR
> before invoking DM780 , correct ?
> 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[David Beumer W0DHB]

Simon

DM780 will use PowerSDR VAC sample rate if the VAC is opened by PoweSDR 
before invoking DM780 , correct ?


Dave

Simon HB9DRV wrote:

Hi,

No.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


  

-Original Message-
From: Jan Egholm [mailto:j...@egholm.fo]
Sent: 02 February 2010 19:12

So my questions is if there is a way to force DM780 to 41000?






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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Simon HB9DRV]

Hi,

No.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Jan Egholm [mailto:j...@egholm.fo]
> Sent: 02 February 2010 19:12
> 
> So my questions is if there is a way to force DM780 to 41000?
> 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Jan Egholm]

Hi Simon,

You are righ on this.
My VAC SR is on 44100 allways, and does not shange if I start DM780 or
PowerSDR first
Have tryed to change SR in PowerSDR first an then start is, but VAC is still
on 44100
So it looks like VAC is fixed on 44100 for some reson.

Then I can se that DM780 is running 8k so this must be a problem.

So my questions is if there is a way to force DM780 to 41000?

73
Jan, OY3JE 

-Original Message-
From: Simon HB9DRV [mailto:si...@hb9drv.ch] 
Sent: 2. februar 2010 09:18
To: 'Jan Egholm'; 'Bret Mills'
Cc: 'Steven L Hess'; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: RE: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
Dummyload.

Random thoughts:

You shouldn't have any spurs, that's it. Even though the spur is ~60dB down
on the main signal it'll be easy to decode and just shouldn't be there.
 
As Tim says it could well be a soundcard harmonic *but* you're using VAC, in
which case it would have to be generated inside the VAC driver and this is
indeed possible.

If possible look at the signal fed into the VAC, maybe I'll have to write a
display to show this.

Is the VAC running at 8kHz both ends or is the end connected to PowerSDR
running at a different rate? If so this could account for the spur.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-
> 
> I am using DM780 and have allways had this spur when running PSK
> 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2662 - Release Date: 02/01/10
12:37:00


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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Simon HB9DRV]

Converting between 8kHz and 48kHz should not be problematic but between
44.1kHz and 48kHz will be a problem unless it's correctly encoded.

there are some good routine in the public domain and also the Intel IPP
libraries have excellent sample rate conversion.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: br...@lloyd.com [mailto:br...@lloyd.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: 02 February 2010 18:28
> 
> I should have read the entire thread. Yes, most of the problems occur
> when doing sample-rate conversion. VAC seems to be the worst with
> PowerSDR being right behind. The sample-rate conversion used by fldigi
> and dm780 seem to be pretty good. So:
> 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Brian Lloyd]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Brian Lloyd  wrote:

I should have read the entire thread. Yes, most of the problems occur
when doing sample-rate conversion. VAC seems to be the worst with
PowerSDR being right behind. The sample-rate conversion used by fldigi
and dm780 seem to be pretty good. So:

1. start PowerSDR.

2. set VAC sample rate to 48,000 Hz.

3. enable VAC.

4. start fldigi or dm780.

This has worked just fine for me.

This approach means there will be two sample rate conversions: from
the internal sample rate of the radio (48kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz) to 48kHz
going to VAC, which takes place in PowerSDR, and then again in the
digital mode program.

My experiment where I changed the sample rate between PowerSDR and VAC
to match  the internal sample rate of the CODEC being used, i.e.
either 8kHz or 11.05 kHz, turned out to be substantially worse,
leading me to believe that the sample-rate conversion code being used
by PowerSDR is not as good as that in fldigi or dm780.

YMMV.


-- 
73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Brian Lloyd]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Simon HB9DRV  wrote:
> Random thoughts:
>
> You shouldn't have any spurs, that's it. Even though the spur is ~60dB down
> on the main signal it'll be easy to decode and just shouldn't be there.
>
> As Tim says it could well be a soundcard harmonic *but* you're using VAC, in
> which case it would have to be generated inside the VAC driver and this is
> indeed possible.
>
> If possible look at the signal fed into the VAC, maybe I'll have to write a
> display to show this.
>
> Is the VAC running at 8kHz both ends or is the end connected to PowerSDR
> running at a different rate? If so this could account for the spur.
>
> Simon Brown, HB9DRV
> http://sdr-radio.com

This problem appears with both fldigi and dm780. It also seems to
change over time. (Changes to libraries?) It appears to me to be
aliasing products which make me suspect sample-rate conversion used in
either fldigi, dm780, VAC, PowerSDR, or some combination thereof.

I have tried changing the sample rate in/out of PowerSDR to match the
sample rate used by the different CODECs in fldigi so that there is
only one sample-rate conversion taking place. This definitely turned
out to be a lose, leading me to suspect that the sample-rate
conversion code in PowerSDR is suboptimal. Dave did make some changes
to fldigi in generating the waveforms for Olivia which helped
tremendously but I still see things change periodically.

-- 
73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Tim Ellison]

You are correct, Dave.  That is why it is best to start PowerSDR first and 
enable VAC before starting the digi mode program so that PowerSDR can establish 
the cable parameters (sampling rate and bit depth).


-Tim


-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz 
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of David Beumer W0DHB
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 11:30 AM
To: Joe Knapp
Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into 
Dummyload.

I believe the VAC sample rate is set by the  first  program to open the 
VAC.  If you fire up PowerSDR enable VAC  then start your digital 
program,  your VAC will be set to the PowerSDR VAC sample rate   -- 
learned the hard way...

Joe Knapp wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Steven L Hess  wrote:
>   
>> From quickly reading the VAC documentation I didn't grasp how I would
>> change the sample rate from 4100 to 4800.
>> As my primary audio sample rate is 48k I attempted to match the VAC
>> PowerSDR setting to the same audio sample rate.
>> 
>
> I wasn't able to change the VAC sample rate to 48K either. Trying to
> force it by changing the VAC range from 11025..96000 to 48000..48000
> just gave me "unanticipated host error" when starting PowerSDR. As you
> say, dropping PowerSDR's rate to 44100 to match VAC eliminates the
> spur. Evidently the sample rate conversion between VAC and PowerSDR
> creates the spur.
>
> Here's a PowerSDR spectrum showing the spur:
>
> http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/psdrspec.png
>
> Using Audacity to sample what's coming off the VAC "cable" going into
> PowerSDR shows no spur (in the pass band anyway):
>
> http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/audspec.png
>
> Joe
>
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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[David Beumer W0DHB]

I believe the VAC sample rate is set by the  first  program to open the 
VAC.  If you fire up PowerSDR enable VAC  then start your digital 
program,  your VAC will be set to the PowerSDR VAC sample rate   -- 
learned the hard way...


Joe Knapp wrote:

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Steven L Hess  wrote:
  

From quickly reading the VAC documentation I didn't grasp how I would
change the sample rate from 4100 to 4800.
As my primary audio sample rate is 48k I attempted to match the VAC
PowerSDR setting to the same audio sample rate.



I wasn't able to change the VAC sample rate to 48K either. Trying to
force it by changing the VAC range from 11025..96000 to 48000..48000
just gave me "unanticipated host error" when starting PowerSDR. As you
say, dropping PowerSDR's rate to 44100 to match VAC eliminates the
spur. Evidently the sample rate conversion between VAC and PowerSDR
creates the spur.

Here's a PowerSDR spectrum showing the spur:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/psdrspec.png

Using Audacity to sample what's coming off the VAC "cable" going into
PowerSDR shows no spur (in the pass band anyway):

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/audspec.png

Joe

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Steven L Hess]

Yes Joe and the DM780 signal is even cleaner it appears to me to be much
narrower and not in need of any filtering. The apparent width of the
fildigi signal is about 3X wider in the panafall

The trick to get rid of spurs if you have them is the going from 4800 to
4100.  

On 02/02/2010 05:13 AM, Joe Knapp wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Steven L Hess  wrote:
>   
>> From quickly reading the VAC documentation I didn't grasp how I would
>> change the sample rate from 4100 to 4800.
>> As my primary audio sample rate is 48k I attempted to match the VAC
>> PowerSDR setting to the same audio sample rate.
>> 
> I wasn't able to change the VAC sample rate to 48K either. Trying to
> force it by changing the VAC range from 11025..96000 to 48000..48000
> just gave me "unanticipated host error" when starting PowerSDR. As you
> say, dropping PowerSDR's rate to 44100 to match VAC eliminates the
> spur. Evidently the sample rate conversion between VAC and PowerSDR
> creates the spur.
>
> Here's a PowerSDR spectrum showing the spur:
>
> http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/psdrspec.png
>
> Using Audacity to sample what's coming off the VAC "cable" going into
> PowerSDR shows no spur (in the pass band anyway):
>
> http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/audspec.png
>
> Joe
>
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>   

-- 
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950 + 
PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.


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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Joe Knapp]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Steven L Hess  wrote:
> From quickly reading the VAC documentation I didn't grasp how I would
> change the sample rate from 4100 to 4800.
> As my primary audio sample rate is 48k I attempted to match the VAC
> PowerSDR setting to the same audio sample rate.

I wasn't able to change the VAC sample rate to 48K either. Trying to
force it by changing the VAC range from 11025..96000 to 48000..48000
just gave me "unanticipated host error" when starting PowerSDR. As you
say, dropping PowerSDR's rate to 44100 to match VAC eliminates the
spur. Evidently the sample rate conversion between VAC and PowerSDR
creates the spur.

Here's a PowerSDR spectrum showing the spur:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/psdrspec.png

Using Audacity to sample what's coming off the VAC "cable" going into
PowerSDR shows no spur (in the pass band anyway):

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/jmknapp/audspec.png

Joe

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Steven L Hess]

Simon

Dropping the sample rate to 4100 in the PowerSDR set up for VAC
eliminated any Spurs visible in fldigi.

>From quickly reading the VAC documentation I didn't grasp how I would
change the sample rate from 4100 to 4800.
As my primary audio sample rate is 48k I attempted to match the VAC
PowerSDR setting to the same audio sample rate.

So many buffer sizes and in sample rates which can be set in PowerSDR.
I am having a hard time keeping them straight as I learn them.
The driver buffer and sample rate.
The DSP buffers .
The regular audio buffer size and sample rate.
The VAC buffer sample rate and buffer size.

Cheers
Steven




On 02/02/2010 03:08 AM, Simon HB9DRV wrote:
> Yuck!
>
> Looking at your screenshot again - the VAC Control Panel window - you're
> going to have all sorts of rate conversions running, your cables are using
> 44,100 as their sample rate.
>
> I would use a sample rate of 48,000 or 8,000 and *not* have the cable
> running internally at 44,100, essentially keep the same sample rate running
> through the whole process to avoid rate conversions.
>
> Converting 8,000 <=> 48,000 should be clean but converting 44,100 <=> 48,000
> could be messy.
>
> Simon Brown, HB9DRV
> http://sdr-radio.com
>
>
>   
>> -Original Message-
>> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-
>> radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
>>
>> Simon this is what I have
>> Vac Settings PowerSDR settings
>> 
>>
>> 
>
>
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> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>
>   

-- 
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950 + 
PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.


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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Simon HB9DRV]

Yuck!

Looking at your screenshot again - the VAC Control Panel window - you're
going to have all sorts of rate conversions running, your cables are using
44,100 as their sample rate.

I would use a sample rate of 48,000 or 8,000 and *not* have the cable
running internally at 44,100, essentially keep the same sample rate running
through the whole process to avoid rate conversions.

Converting 8,000 <=> 48,000 should be clean but converting 44,100 <=> 48,000
could be messy.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-
> radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
> 
> Simon this is what I have
> Vac Settings PowerSDR settings
> 
> 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Simon HB9DRV]

OK,

I see you're connecting PowerSDR to the VAC at 48kHz and DM780 / Fldigi at
8kHz.

So the VAC driver will have to convert the data, I'll bet it's this logic
which is causing the spur (note - I am often very wrong).

I don't have any Flex radios at the moment so can't try my idea but I would
try selecting 8kHz on the PowerSDR when connecting to the VAC so that
there's no sample rate conversion. Tim should think about this - it could be
a bad idea (I'm not a PowerSDR expert at all).

In any event I would want to try with VAC running at the same sample rate
each end.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-
> radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
> 
> Simon this is what I have
> Vac Settings PowerSDR settings
> 
> 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Steven L Hess]

Simon this is what I have
Vac Settings PowerSDR settings


I set it up from this KC article.
How to Setup Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) 4.0x with PowerSDR 1.x



On 02/02/2010 01:17 AM, Simon HB9DRV wrote:
> Random thoughts:
>
> You shouldn't have any spurs, that's it. Even though the spur is ~60dB down
> on the main signal it'll be easy to decode and just shouldn't be there.
>  
> As Tim says it could well be a soundcard harmonic *but* you're using VAC, in
> which case it would have to be generated inside the VAC driver and this is
> indeed possible.
>
> If possible look at the signal fed into the VAC, maybe I'll have to write a
> display to show this.
>
> Is the VAC running at 8kHz both ends or is the end connected to PowerSDR
> running at a different rate? If so this could account for the spur.
>
> Simon Brown, HB9DRV
> http://sdr-radio.com
>
>
>   
>> -Original Message-
>> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-
>>
>> I am using DM780 and have allways had this spur when running PSK
>>
>> 
>
>
> ___
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> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage: 
> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>
>   

-- 
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950 + 
PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Simon HB9DRV]

Random thoughts:

You shouldn't have any spurs, that's it. Even though the spur is ~60dB down
on the main signal it'll be easy to decode and just shouldn't be there.
 
As Tim says it could well be a soundcard harmonic *but* you're using VAC, in
which case it would have to be generated inside the VAC driver and this is
indeed possible.

If possible look at the signal fed into the VAC, maybe I'll have to write a
display to show this.

Is the VAC running at 8kHz both ends or is the end connected to PowerSDR
running at a different rate? If so this could account for the spur.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
http://sdr-radio.com


> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-
> 
> I am using DM780 and have allways had this spur when running PSK
> 



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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Jan Egholm]

Hi,

I am using DM780 and have allways had this spur when running PSK

73,
Jan, OY3JE

Sent from my iPhone

On 02/02/2010, at 01.54, "Bret Mills"  wrote:


Hi Steve,
Try DM780 (HRD) and you can see what Tim is talking about, it  
doesn't have

the sound card harmonic and is NOT a Flex issue.
It is there with any other Radio you run FLDIGI on, the difference  
from

other Radios is, with the Flex / PowSDR YOU CAN SEE IT.

73's
Bret
WX7Y



Dhttp://kc.flex-radio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx

-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:36 PM
To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
Dummyload.

Flex-3000
Windows 7 64
PowerSDR v1.18.3
Driver Version 3.5.0.7171
Firmware 1.2.5.6
Licensed version of VAC
fldigi  3.12.5

After the Suggestion that it was RF getting into the system I I  
checked all
my RF grounding and re-ran my test into a dummy load with 0 RF out.  
The Spur
is still present in the lack of an RF presence. It was suggested I  
modify my
transmit filter. That isn't the way PSK31 works. How do I deal with  
this
visually obvious unwanted sideband transmission? Do I need to take  
this up

with Flex-Radio as a warranty issue?

Screen shot of Spur in PowerSDR 0 Rf out.


--
Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and,  
442.950

+ PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Brian Lloyd]

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Steven L Hess  wrote:
> That was with no RF out it bumps up to about -80 on the display with 17
> watts out displayed under fldigi. DM780 has a spurs too.  -100 on the
> display with 26 watts out on the display at 14.070. -80 on 7.035 with 21
> watts actually on the air.  I guess I am just overly concerned with what
> I can see.
>
> I don't see a filter as a solution as it defeats the purpose of how
> PSK31 software works. You could be constantly modifying your filter
> where you should just be selecting a frequency with your mouse. Since
> radio is better the software needs to be better too.

I use narrow transmit filters with fldigi. The trick is to use the QSY
feature in fldigi to bring the signal to one AF frequency, the "sweet
spot". I set that to be 1500 Hz and then set my RX filter (and TX
filter) around that. Click tune the desired signal and then hit the
QSY button.

Actually I have taking to doing the click tuning using the waterfall
in PowerSDR instead of in fldigi. With the DIGU offset set to the
"sweet spot" (1500Hz), I just click on the signal in PowerSDR and
>POOF< instant copy.

Dave, W1HKJ, has made improvements to the spectral purity of fldigi. I
noticed the same thing you did and pointed it out to him in Oliva. The
extra products are now down substantially (more than 80dB) which is
plenty adequate.

-- 
73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Tim Ellison]

"I don't see a filter as a solution as it defeats the purpose of how
PSK31 software works. You could be constantly modifying your filter where you 
should just be selecting a frequency with your mouse. Since radio is better the 
software needs to be better too."

You have to get clever with how you use a digi mode program.

Fldigi has a QSK feature.  This is the silver bullet for using PowerSDR with a 
digi mode program.  MixW has a macro called ALIGN that does the same thing.  

These "QSY" features, when enabled, changes the radio's VFO frequency to put 
the signal of interest in the digi mode waterfall exactly X hertz offset from 
the radio's VFO.  For example, I set the offset to 1500 Hz.  Whenever I select 
a signal in the digi mode program waterfall and hit QSY, that signal is now 
exactly 1500 Hz offset from the radio's VFO frequency.  Since you can take any 
signal anywhere on the waterfall and automatically move it so it has a 1500 Hz 
offset, you create a series of RX filters of cascading width, centered at 1500 
Hz.  Now, whatever RX filter you use, you can always be sure it will be dead 
center of your signal of interest; in my case 1500 Hz.  I have RX filters for 
digi modes that are 50, 100, 250, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 3000 Hz wide; 
all centered at 1500 Hz.  You also do the same with TX profiles and set the TX 
filter to be centered at 1500 Hz and have different profiles for different digi 
modes.  My PSK TX profile has a 100 Hz TX filter centered at 1500 Hz.  RTTY is 
350 Hz wide centered at 1500 Hz.  With this configuration, I never transmit any 
of the overtones from digimode programs because my TX filter is optimized for 
my digi mode and I can quickly select the RX filter that provide the best S/N 
without having to even touch the PowerSDR console to manipulate the filtering.

Read up on the QSY feature.  It is a powerful tool to use.


-Tim

-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz 
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:38 PM
To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into 
Dummyload.

That was with no RF out it bumps up to about -80 on the display with 17
watts out displayed under fldigi. DM780 has a spurs too.  -100 on the
display with 26 watts out on the display at 14.070. -80 on 7.035 with 21
watts actually on the air.  I guess I am just overly concerned with what
I can see.

I don't see a filter as a solution as it defeats the purpose of how
PSK31 software works. You could be constantly modifying your filter
where you should just be selecting a frequency with your mouse. Since
radio is better the software needs to be better too.


On 02/01/2010 07:47 PM, Tim Ellison wrote:
> "I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air with 
> that."
>
> It was -115 dB down.  I seriously doubt anyone would notice.
>
>
> -Tim
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz 
> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 10:07 PM
> To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into 
> Dummyload.
>
> Thanks Tim and Bret
>
> I am glad its not a problem with the rig. I will email the author of
> fldigi with a URL pointing him to the image.
>
> I have HRD 5 installed and configured and will play with DM780 once I
> get it configured so DM780 can talk to the HRD and the rig. Too many
> irons in the fire this evening.
>
> I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air
> with that.
>
> I now need two monitors. Resizing DM780 down doesn't seem to work for
> me.  I just ran out of money too hihi.
>
> On 02/01/2010 05:54 PM, Bret Mills wrote:
>   
>> Hi Steve,
>> Try DM780 (HRD) and you can see what Tim is talking about, it doesn't have
>> the sound card harmonic and is NOT a Flex issue.
>> It is there with any other Radio you run FLDIGI on, the difference from
>> other Radios is, with the Flex / PowSDR YOU CAN SEE IT.
>>
>> 73's
>> Bret
>> WX7Y
>>
>>
>>
>> Dhttp://kc.flex-radio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx 
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
>> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
>> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:36 PM
>> To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
>> Subject: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
>> Dummyload.
>>
>> Flex-3000
>> Windows 7 64
>> PowerSDR v1.18.3
>> Driver Version 3.5.0.7171
>> Firmware 1.2.5.6
>> Licensed version of

Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Steven L Hess]

That was with no RF out it bumps up to about -80 on the display with 17
watts out displayed under fldigi. DM780 has a spurs too.  -100 on the
display with 26 watts out on the display at 14.070. -80 on 7.035 with 21
watts actually on the air.  I guess I am just overly concerned with what
I can see.

I don't see a filter as a solution as it defeats the purpose of how
PSK31 software works. You could be constantly modifying your filter
where you should just be selecting a frequency with your mouse. Since
radio is better the software needs to be better too.


On 02/01/2010 07:47 PM, Tim Ellison wrote:
> "I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air with 
> that."
>
> It was -115 dB down.  I seriously doubt anyone would notice.
>
>
> -Tim
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz 
> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 10:07 PM
> To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into 
> Dummyload.
>
> Thanks Tim and Bret
>
> I am glad its not a problem with the rig. I will email the author of
> fldigi with a URL pointing him to the image.
>
> I have HRD 5 installed and configured and will play with DM780 once I
> get it configured so DM780 can talk to the HRD and the rig. Too many
> irons in the fire this evening.
>
> I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air
> with that.
>
> I now need two monitors. Resizing DM780 down doesn't seem to work for
> me.  I just ran out of money too hihi.
>
> On 02/01/2010 05:54 PM, Bret Mills wrote:
>   
>> Hi Steve,
>> Try DM780 (HRD) and you can see what Tim is talking about, it doesn't have
>> the sound card harmonic and is NOT a Flex issue.
>> It is there with any other Radio you run FLDIGI on, the difference from
>> other Radios is, with the Flex / PowSDR YOU CAN SEE IT.
>>
>> 73's
>> Bret
>> WX7Y
>>
>>
>>
>> Dhttp://kc.flex-radio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx 
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
>> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
>> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:36 PM
>> To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
>> Subject: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
>> Dummyload.
>>
>> Flex-3000
>> Windows 7 64
>> PowerSDR v1.18.3
>> Driver Version 3.5.0.7171
>> Firmware 1.2.5.6
>> Licensed version of VAC
>> fldigi  3.12.5
>>
>> After the Suggestion that it was RF getting into the system I I checked all
>> my RF grounding and re-ran my test into a dummy load with 0 RF out. The Spur
>> is still present in the lack of an RF presence. It was suggested I modify my
>> transmit filter. That isn't the way PSK31 works. How do I deal with this
>> visually obvious unwanted sideband transmission? Do I need to take this up
>> with Flex-Radio as a warranty issue?
>>
>> Screen shot of Spur in PowerSDR 0 Rf out.
>> <http://www.slhess.com/pictures/31downnorfout.jpg> 
>>
>> --
>>  Regards de KC6KGE
>> "Up all night"
>> Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
>> 3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950
>> + PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.
>>
>> ___
>> FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
>> FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
>> http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
>> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
>> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage:
>> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>>
>>
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>> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
>> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage: 
>> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>>
>>   
>> 
>   

-- 
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950 + 
PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.


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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Tim Ellison]

"I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air with 
that."

It was -115 dB down.  I seriously doubt anyone would notice.


-Tim


-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz 
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 10:07 PM
To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into 
Dummyload.

Thanks Tim and Bret

I am glad its not a problem with the rig. I will email the author of
fldigi with a URL pointing him to the image.

I have HRD 5 installed and configured and will play with DM780 once I
get it configured so DM780 can talk to the HRD and the rig. Too many
irons in the fire this evening.

I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air
with that.

I now need two monitors. Resizing DM780 down doesn't seem to work for
me.  I just ran out of money too hihi.

On 02/01/2010 05:54 PM, Bret Mills wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> Try DM780 (HRD) and you can see what Tim is talking about, it doesn't have
> the sound card harmonic and is NOT a Flex issue.
> It is there with any other Radio you run FLDIGI on, the difference from
> other Radios is, with the Flex / PowSDR YOU CAN SEE IT.
>
> 73's
> Bret
> WX7Y
>
>
>
> Dhttp://kc.flex-radio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:36 PM
> To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
> Dummyload.
>
> Flex-3000
> Windows 7 64
> PowerSDR v1.18.3
> Driver Version 3.5.0.7171
> Firmware 1.2.5.6
> Licensed version of VAC
> fldigi  3.12.5
>
> After the Suggestion that it was RF getting into the system I I checked all
> my RF grounding and re-ran my test into a dummy load with 0 RF out. The Spur
> is still present in the lack of an RF presence. It was suggested I modify my
> transmit filter. That isn't the way PSK31 works. How do I deal with this
> visually obvious unwanted sideband transmission? Do I need to take this up
> with Flex-Radio as a warranty issue?
>
> Screen shot of Spur in PowerSDR 0 Rf out.
> <http://www.slhess.com/pictures/31downnorfout.jpg> 
>
> --
>  Regards de KC6KGE
> "Up all night"
> Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
> 3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950
> + PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.
>
> ___
> FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
> FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage:
> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>
>
> ___
> FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
> FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage: 
> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>
>   

-- 
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950 + 
PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.


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Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/

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Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Steven L Hess]

Thanks Tim and Bret

I am glad its not a problem with the rig. I will email the author of
fldigi with a URL pointing him to the image.

I have HRD 5 installed and configured and will play with DM780 once I
get it configured so DM780 can talk to the HRD and the rig. Too many
irons in the fire this evening.

I would be afraid I would get hunted down and hung if I went on the air
with that.

I now need two monitors. Resizing DM780 down doesn't seem to work for
me.  I just ran out of money too hihi.

On 02/01/2010 05:54 PM, Bret Mills wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> Try DM780 (HRD) and you can see what Tim is talking about, it doesn't have
> the sound card harmonic and is NOT a Flex issue.
> It is there with any other Radio you run FLDIGI on, the difference from
> other Radios is, with the Flex / PowSDR YOU CAN SEE IT.
>
> 73's
> Bret
> WX7Y
>
>
>
> Dhttp://kc.flex-radio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:36 PM
> To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
> Dummyload.
>
> Flex-3000
> Windows 7 64
> PowerSDR v1.18.3
> Driver Version 3.5.0.7171
> Firmware 1.2.5.6
> Licensed version of VAC
> fldigi  3.12.5
>
> After the Suggestion that it was RF getting into the system I I checked all
> my RF grounding and re-ran my test into a dummy load with 0 RF out. The Spur
> is still present in the lack of an RF presence. It was suggested I modify my
> transmit filter. That isn't the way PSK31 works. How do I deal with this
> visually obvious unwanted sideband transmission? Do I need to take this up
> with Flex-Radio as a warranty issue?
>
> Screen shot of Spur in PowerSDR 0 Rf out.
>  
>
> --
>  Regards de KC6KGE
> "Up all night"
> Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
> 3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950
> + PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.
>
> ___
> FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
> FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage:
> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>
>
> ___
> FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
> FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
> Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage: 
> http://www.flex-radio.com/
>
>   

-- 
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950 + 
PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.


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Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/

Re: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into Dummyload.

[Bret Mills]

Hi Steve,
Try DM780 (HRD) and you can see what Tim is talking about, it doesn't have
the sound card harmonic and is NOT a Flex issue.
It is there with any other Radio you run FLDIGI on, the difference from
other Radios is, with the Flex / PowSDR YOU CAN SEE IT.

73's
Bret
WX7Y



Dhttp://kc.flex-radio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx 

-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Steven L Hess
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:36 PM
To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: [Flexradio] Spur in PSK31 output even with no rf out into
Dummyload.

Flex-3000
Windows 7 64
PowerSDR v1.18.3
Driver Version 3.5.0.7171
Firmware 1.2.5.6
Licensed version of VAC
fldigi  3.12.5

After the Suggestion that it was RF getting into the system I I checked all
my RF grounding and re-ran my test into a dummy load with 0 RF out. The Spur
is still present in the lack of an RF presence. It was suggested I modify my
transmit filter. That isn't the way PSK31 works. How do I deal with this
visually obvious unwanted sideband transmission? Do I need to take this up
with Flex-Radio as a warranty issue?

Screen shot of Spur in PowerSDR 0 Rf out.
 

--
 Regards de KC6KGE
"Up all night"
Monitoring at least one of the following Frequencies:
3975, 7181, 14.329, 52.560, 146.550 Simplex tone squelch PL 100 and, 442.950
+ PL 103.5 or 443.900 + PL 100.

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Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/  Homepage:
http://www.flex-radio.com/


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