Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At this site http://hcilab.uniud.it/pan you can download the results of a joint project between the HCI Lab of the University of Udine and the aerobatic team of the Italian Air Force (the Frecce Tricolori). Today they made a lunch and fuel stop at my local Airport (EHTW), and they will do the same on Monday: http://www.a1.nl/~ehofman/images/hpim4020.jpg If you have the chance, say hi to them en thank them for their visit. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce
Martin Spott wrote: Gene Buckle wrote: Martin Spott wrote: Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills didn't dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention "disputes" in soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a decade ago, I believe we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and a war crime "score" AI, basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva Conventions. I heavily object because this lets FlightGear definitely cross the line between serious simulation and war games, *rolls eyes* Stopping that might facilitate reading and thinking WTF? What makes you think "Serious Simulation" and "War Game" is mutually exclusive? g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce
Gene Buckle wrote: > Martin Spott wrote: >> Arnt Karlsen wrote: >>>..since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills didn't >>>dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention "disputes" in >>>soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a decade ago, I believe >>>we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and a war crime "score" AI, >>>basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva Conventions. >> >> >> I heavily object because this lets FlightGear definitely cross the line >> between serious simulation and war games, > *rolls eyes* Stopping that might facilitate reading and thinking Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
Dave Martin wrote: On Friday 29 July 2005 14:18, Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..and, this latter bit can get us some seriously fat funding: "FlightGear helps war game authors teach soldiers how to prevent war crimes." Or even just "helps Fight Pilots avoid Friendly-Fire incidents ;) Better yet, "Helps Fighter Pilots from becoming Fighter Pile-Its." :) g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce
Martin Spott wrote: Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills didn't dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention "disputes" in soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a decade ago, I believe we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and a war crime "score" AI, basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva Conventions. I heavily object because this lets FlightGear definitely cross the line between serious simulation and war games, *rolls eyes* g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce
Martin Spott wrote: I heavily object because this lets FlightGear definitely cross the line between serious simulation and war games, I think what we have to come to grips with is that just about any tool ... software or hardware can be used to benefit humanity (or our enviroment or whatever else might be higher on your priority list) or harm it ... and if not directly, it certainly can be used indirectly. Go watch "The God's Must Be Crazy" and see what kind of craziness ensues from a simple coke bottle. (Curt gives the movie 5 out of 5 thumbs up.) As we move forward, there is going to be pressure to be able to drop items or fire items from a moving airplane ... forest fire water bombers will want to drop "retardant/water", we may want to simulate a rocket launch from 35,000' to deploy a civilian communication satellite, maybe we want to drop the X-15 from a B-52, maybe we want to drop a dozen realistic parachuters and the practice landing without flying into any of them, maybe someone would want to air drop humanitarian items to needy people. And it makes sense to add these to a simulation so you don't accidently drop a ton of rice on the people you are trying to feed, or drop it on their one remaining goat. But by adding these features, we open the door to all the logical extensions that might move us towards more direct shoot 'em up style games. I honestly don't think it's possible to prevent that, and I'm not sure it's worth shooting ourselves in the foot (so to speak) just trying to lock out the FPS gamer crowd. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:02:04 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > ..since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills > > didn't dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention > > "disputes" in soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a > > decade ago, I believe we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and > > a war crime "score" AI, basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva > > Conventions. > > I heavily object because this lets FlightGear definitely cross the > line between serious simulation and war games, > > Martin. ..overruled or sustained by any new code in cvs. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce
Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills didn't > dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention "disputes" in > soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a decade ago, I believe > we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and a war crime "score" AI, > basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva Conventions. I heavily object because this lets FlightGear definitely cross the line between serious simulation and war games, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
On Friday 29 July 2005 14:18, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..and, this latter bit can get us some seriously fat funding: > "FlightGear helps war game authors teach soldiers how > to prevent war crimes." Or even just "helps Fight Pilots avoid Friendly-Fire incidents ;) Dave Martin. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
Le vendredi 29 juillet 2005 à 15:18 +0200, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : > On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:11:40 +0200, Gerard wrote in message > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > ..._sexy_ way to sneak in war game features: we need to model > > > anti-aircraft lava ammo 'n turbine blade ash etc damage. ;o) > > > > > > > We don't need it, only watch the TV, and wait for Iraki News. :=( > > ...bull, I see no reason any of Sissy Boy George's idiot stunts should > stop any new FlightGear development. > > ...since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills didn't > dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention "disputes" in > soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a decade ago, I believe > we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and a war crime "score" AI, > basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva Conventions. > > ...and, this latter bit can get us some seriously fat funding: > "FlightGear helps war game authors teach soldiers how > to prevent war crimes." No comment, you convicted me. Let's go for startup fat funding. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:11:40 +0200, Gerard wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > ..._sexy_ way to sneak in war game features: we need to model > > anti-aircraft lava ammo 'n turbine blade ash etc damage. ;o) > > > > We don't need it, only watch the TV, and wait for Iraki News. :=( ..bull, I see no reason any of Sissy Boy George's idiot stunts should stop any new FlightGear development. ..since we do have guns now in FG, and since Slobodan's shills didn't dare challenge my "rulings" ;o) on Geneva Convention "disputes" in soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.war.yugoslavia etc a decade ago, I believe we can code both a kill score AI "engine", and a war crime "score" AI, basing the latter on the full 4 Geneva Conventions. ..and, this latter bit can get us some seriously fat funding: "FlightGear helps war game authors teach soldiers how to prevent war crimes." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
> ..._sexy_ way to sneak in war game features: we need to model > anti-aircraft lava ammo 'n turbine blade ash etc damage. ;o) > We don't need it, only watch the TV, and wait for Iraki News. :=( -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:01:28 +0100, Lee wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Thursday 28 Jul 2005 15:15, Vivian Meazza wrote: > > Dave Culp > > > > ... snip ... > > > > > The present system makes smoke/contrails by releasing AI > > > objects rapidly. There are three problems with it now: > > > > > > 1) Orienting the objects properly. Only applies for long > > > (i.e. cylindrical, > > > rectangular) models. > > > > > > 2) Matching the release rate to the airplane's speed. > > > > > > 3) Making a smoke model that merges well with the others. > > > I've heard (on this list) that this may be a plib > > > limitation. It may require the use of a > > > different visual model, like billboards or particle fields. > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, maybe a whole new tactic is needed. > > > > I think Harald is working on this as an offshoot of his 3d > > clouds. I'm quite sure we can't do better with the AI > > ballistic approach as it stands. > > > > Vivian > > I've been wondering if Harald's clouds could be adapted for > smoke, contrails, gun-puffs and touch-down smoke... > > It started me thinking when I saw a 'tower' of 3d clouds over > some high ground and it looked like a pretty good volcano plume, > and it occurred to me that it could be possible to add pretty > good volcano hazards to FG. .._sexy_ way to sneak in war game features: we need to model anti-aircraft lava ammo 'n turbine blade ash etc damage. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
On Thursday 28 Jul 2005 15:15, Vivian Meazza wrote: > Dave Culp > > ... snip ... > > > The present system makes smoke/contrails by releasing AI > > objects rapidly. There are three problems with it now: > > > > 1) Orienting the objects properly. Only applies for long > > (i.e. cylindrical, > > rectangular) models. > > > > 2) Matching the release rate to the airplane's speed. > > > > 3) Making a smoke model that merges well with the others. > > I've heard (on this list) that this may be a plib > > limitation. It may require the use of a > > different visual model, like billboards or particle fields. > > > > > > On the other hand, maybe a whole new tactic is needed. > > I think Harald is working on this as an offshoot of his 3d > clouds. I'm quite sure we can't do better with the AI > ballistic approach as it stands. > > Vivian I've been wondering if Harald's clouds could be adapted for smoke, contrails, gun-puffs and touch-down smoke... It started me thinking when I saw a 'tower' of 3d clouds over some high ground and it looked like a pretty good volcano plume, and it occurred to me that it could be possible to add pretty good volcano hazards to FG. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:34:13 -0700 (PDT), Craig wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hello all, > > Where do I find this aircraft. Is it released yet? ..chk down the $FGROOT/data/aircraft/ tree. > Craig > > Arnt Karlsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:01 -0500, Dave wrote in message > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release > > > an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?). > > > > We have smoke/contrails now, but they need a lot of work: > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~davidculp2/contrails.jpg > > > > They look OK from some angles, and look bad from others. I tried to > > add a smoke generator to the OV-10 model (The real OV-10 can inject > > oil into the right exhaust stack to make white smoke), but it > > doesn't look good enough to use. > > ..white smoke, for smoke signalling? ;o) > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> From: Erik Hofman > > Jim Wilson wrote: > >>From: Erik Hofman > > >>Which they do, they clearly added modified versions of FlightGear > >>configuration files to the systems and sound directory. > >> > >>If they want us to respect their copyright I expect them to respect ours > >>and make clean which versions are derived from FlightGear and hence are > >>still GPL. > > > > Actually what you are suggesting they do isn't exactly correct. Just > > identifying the changed files is not sufficient. See > clause 2b in the GPLv2. Derived works _must_ also be GPL. > > > > Essentially, to do this right, the original model with textures and > > animations would have to go into a separate zip file > that is licensed as is and then the derived configuration files would go into > another zip file that is GPL'd. > > You can always argue what would be derived work: just the modified files > or the complete package. Personally I would say the first. > It does not matter, files or package. Only part of the published material must be derived in order for that published material be required to be released under GPLv2. The license is very clearly worded: "You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License." The published archive (MB339-PAN.zip) is derived from "any part thereof" the FlightGear program. Sure, you can split hairs over wheather you can publish two separately licensed works in the same archive file. I am not trying to be nitpicky, just clear. It certainly seems that the logical thing to do is distribute the non-GPL original artwork and configurations in a seperate zip file. It would be the clearest and simplest way to avoid misunderstandings now and in the future. About misunderstandings, note that they can go both ways. It would not be surprising for someone to mis-interpret the license files in the zip and erroneously modify and release under GPL some of the non-GPL parts of the 339-PAN project. You could have a few generations of derivation in circulation before someone realized that there was a problem. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:20:38 +0200, Erik wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Andy Ross wrote: > > > Basically, it seems to me like these guys are fine, with a few > > nit-picky exceptions like the joystick configuration. I don't think > > Yes, but why the joystick configuration and not the sound > configuration (which was created by me for the c172) for instance. > > > we need to raise a stink, except to get their derived stuff released > > as a separate tarball somewhere. ..hey, give Augusto some time to get this fixed, eh? ;o) ..Augusto, if you need any help with winning your team over to the GPL, just holler. ;o) > I would really like to see it available. But they claim copyright over > work done by someone else (and also restrict it afterwards). To me > they just have to say which files where modified and that those files > still fall under the terms of the GPL. ..diff's, anyone? ;o) ..keep in mind _some_ of our stuff like trivial header files, does not qualify as copyrightable, simply because there are only "so many ways" "to get 4 outta 2-n-2." .._lots_ of background on this over at Groklaw.net. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: smoke was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
Le jeudi 28 juillet 2005 à 19:07 +0200, Harald JOHNSEN a écrit : > >I think Harald is working on this as an offshoot of his 3d clouds. I'm quite > >sure we can't do better with the AI ballistic approach as it stands. > > > >Vivian > Not really working on it atm becaue I need to advance on the shader code > and in the meantime > I did some profiling on FG, but yes I was thinking of adding a 'smoke' > animation that > can be parametrable and with plausible physics. > > Harald. > > When you will be working on smoke animation, i'll follow closely your work, because i guess that could solve, and open the way for water turbulences animation during a seaplane take off -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Andy Ross wrote: Basically, it seems to me like these guys are fine, with a few nit-picky exceptions like the joystick configuration. I don't think Yes, but why the joystick configuration and not the sound configuration (which was created by me for the c172) for instance. we need to raise a stink, except to get their derived stuff released as a separate tarball somewhere. I would really like to see it available. But they claim copyright over work done by someone else (and also restrict it afterwards). To me they just have to say which files where modified and that those files still fall under the terms of the GPL. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
smoke was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
Vivian Meazza wrote: Dave Culp ... snip ... The present system makes smoke/contrails by releasing AI objects rapidly. There are three problems with it now: 1) Orienting the objects properly. Only applies for long (i.e. cylindrical, rectangular) models. 2) Matching the release rate to the airplane's speed. 3) Making a smoke model that merges well with the others. I've heard (on this list) that this may be a plib limitation. It may require the use of a different visual model, like billboards or particle fields. On the other hand, maybe a whole new tactic is needed. I think Harald is working on this as an offshoot of his 3d clouds. I'm quite sure we can't do better with the AI ballistic approach as it stands. Vivian Not really working on it atm becaue I need to advance on the shader code and in the meantime I did some profiling on FG, but yes I was thinking of adding a 'smoke' animation that can be parametrable and with plausible physics. Harald. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Erik Hofman wrote: > You can always argue what would be derived work: just the modified files > or the complete package. Personally I would say the first. Modifying a file is, pretty obviously, creating a "derived work" under any reasonable interpretation. :) > There is no argument possible about the JSBSim configuration files and > (as far as I know) the 3d model. In the case of the 3D model and textures, FlightGear has no relevant copyright to protect. Those are file formats that can be generated and read by other tools. The XML configuration files (the ones that were created from scratch, not copied from existing ones), however, are clearly based on FlightGear technology, and could theoretically be "derived". A sane interpretation would treat these like "documents" though, and they would be owned by their author. I don't think any of us are making the argument that all FlightGear configuration files are derived works. Likewise, an Aeromatic-generated configuration file *can* be considered a derived work, because it contains "code" that was written originally by David Culp et. al. There is some precedent for this kind of thing (older versions of GNU bison generated parsers that were derived works and must be GPLed), but most tools don't bother with that notion and just treat the generated files as documents. Bison now contains a specific exception to the GPL for the generated parser code, for example. Basically, it seems to me like these guys are fine, with a few nit-picky exceptions like the joystick configuration. I don't think we need to raise a stink, except to get their derived stuff released as a separate tarball somewhere. Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Hello all, Where do I find this aircraft. Is it released yet? CraigArnt Karlsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:01 -0500, Dave wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:> > Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release> > an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?).> > We have smoke/contrails now, but they need a lot of work:> > http://home.comcast.net/~davidculp2/contrails.jpg> > They look OK from some angles, and look bad from others. I tried to> add a smoke generator to the OV-10 model (The real OV-10 can inject> oil into the right exhaust stack to make white smoke), but it doesn't> look good enough to use...white smoke, for smoke signalling? ;o)-- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case.___Flightgear-devel mailing listFlightgear-devel@flightgear.orghttp://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Jim Wilson wrote: From: Erik Hofman Which they do, they clearly added modified versions of FlightGear configuration files to the systems and sound directory. If they want us to respect their copyright I expect them to respect ours and make clean which versions are derived from FlightGear and hence are still GPL. Actually what you are suggesting they do isn't exactly correct. Just identifying the changed files is not sufficient. See clause 2b in the GPLv2. Derived works _must_ also be GPL. Essentially, to do this right, the original model with textures and animations would have to go into a separate zip file that is licensed as is and then the derived configuration files would go into another zip file that is GPL'd. You can always argue what would be derived work: just the modified files or the complete package. Personally I would say the first. There is no argument possible about the JSBSim configuration files and (as far as I know) the 3d model. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:01 -0500, Dave wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release > > an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?). > > We have smoke/contrails now, but they need a lot of work: > > http://home.comcast.net/~davidculp2/contrails.jpg > > They look OK from some angles, and look bad from others. I tried to > add a smoke generator to the OV-10 model (The real OV-10 can inject > oil into the right exhaust stack to make white smoke), but it doesn't > look good enough to use. ..white smoke, for smoke signalling? ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> From: Erik Hofman > > Erik Hofman wrote: > > > As long as they haven't used *any* FlightGear supplied code, sound > > files, textures, configuration files or anything else included in the > > base package, they can do whatever they want. > > > > If, however, they have used one or more parts included in the base > > package, then their work could be considered derived work and should be > > put under the GPL also. > > Which they do, they clearly added modified versions of FlightGear > configuration files to the systems and sound directory. > > If they want us to respect their copyright I expect them to respect ours > and make clean which versions are derived from FlightGear and hence are > still GPL. > Actually what you are suggesting they do isn't exactly correct. Just identifying the changed files is not sufficient. See clause 2b in the GPLv2. Derived works _must_ also be GPL. Essentially, to do this right, the original model with textures and animations would have to go into a separate zip file that is licensed as is and then the derived configuration files would go into another zip file that is GPL'd. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> From: Erik Hofman > > Gerard Robin wrote: > > > We could wonder about the License compatibility with GNU. > > > > FlighGear Team should probably discuss that with HCI Lab of the > > University of Udine, before official FG distribution. > > That licence goes against our "up to now policy". > > The HCI Lab licence look like many External developers MSFS Aircraft. > > As long as they haven't used *any* FlightGear supplied code, sound > files, textures, configuration files or anything else included in the > base package, they can do whatever they want. > > If, however, they have used one or more parts included in the base > package, then their work could be considered derived work and should be > put under the GPL also. > Ah, it looks like others have raised a concern on the license. As far as I can tell they are within rights, except with the modified saitek config. But there could be a few files in the aircraft distribution. I am not sure. The greatest portion of this work is obviously original, but it is important for the details to be handled properly. Keeping loose ends tied up is especially important for future developers of derived works. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Erik Hofman wrote: and make clean which versions are derived from FlightGear and hence are Eh, ... clear, "make clear which files are derived" ... Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I'm glad that you appreciate our work. > > Don't miss the video about the making of the MB-339 PAN. > We have slightly modified FlightGear source code to enable > an head tracking sensor for controlling the cockpit view. > The video shows the Capt. Tammaro during the beta-testing of > our "Low-Cost Immersive Flight Simulation" with an Head Mounted Display, > > If you like Frecce Tricolori we have also realeased a 3DWeb based project: > http://frecce3d.uniud.it/ > > Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release > an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?). If anyone > at flightgear.org would like to link our MB-339 PAN project in the "Related > Projects" > section, we would be very happy. > > Bye, Augusto. > Hi Augusto, This is wonderful work. Of course I'm quite pleased with the quality of the 3D cockpit work. :-) >From a perhaps selfish perspective, I think that the FlightGear developers are >feeling great pride that their work attracts such talent as displayed by the >MB-339 PAN project. There is one minor issue that should be brought up. I might suggest taking a quick look at the GPL version 2 as distributed in the COPYING file with FlightGear: http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/viewcvs.cgi/data/COPYING?rev=1.3&cvsroot=FlightGear-0.9&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup The pertinent part to note is: *** begin quote *** 2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions: a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change. b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. *** end quote *** As far as I can tell, the only place where a license change to GPL is needed is in the saitek.zip file, but I haven't really looked that hard at all the items in the aircraft distribution file. Those of you directly involved with the project would be better able to evaluate these requirements. Of course we respect any way in which the university and Frecce wish to protect their rights. My congratulations to all involved. Great job! Best, Jim Wilson ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Erik Hofman wrote: As long as they haven't used *any* FlightGear supplied code, sound files, textures, configuration files or anything else included in the base package, they can do whatever they want. If, however, they have used one or more parts included in the base package, then their work could be considered derived work and should be put under the GPL also. Which they do, they clearly added modified versions of FlightGear configuration files to the systems and sound directory. If they want us to respect their copyright I expect them to respect ours and make clean which versions are derived from FlightGear and hence are still GPL. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Gerard Robin wrote: We could wonder about the License compatibility with GNU. FlighGear Team should probably discuss that with HCI Lab of the University of Udine, before official FG distribution. That licence goes against our "up to now policy". The HCI Lab licence look like many External developers MSFS Aircraft. As long as they haven't used *any* FlightGear supplied code, sound files, textures, configuration files or anything else included in the base package, they can do whatever they want. If, however, they have used one or more parts included in the base package, then their work could be considered derived work and should be put under the GPL also. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricoloriaerobatic jet
Dave Culp ... snip ... > > The present system makes smoke/contrails by releasing AI objects rapidly. > There are three problems with it now: > > 1) Orienting the objects properly. Only applies for long (i.e. > cylindrical, > rectangular) models. > > 2) Matching the release rate to the airplane's speed. > > 3) Making a smoke model that merges well with the others. I've heard (on > this list) that this may be a plib limitation. It may require the use of > a > different visual model, like billboards or particle fields. > > > On the other hand, maybe a whole new tactic is needed. > > I think Harald is working on this as an offshoot of his 3d clouds. I'm quite sure we can't do better with the AI ballistic approach as it stands. Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> Is it better to ask to the Author to solve it? > I did it on my side > > We could wonder about the License compatibility with GNU. > > FlighGear Team should probably discuss that with HCI Lab of the > University of Udine, before official FG distribution. > That licence goes against our "up to now policy". > The HCI Lab licence look like many External developers MSFS Aircraft. Quite probably better to ask; my 'get stuck in' mentality is getting the better of me :-) The license is obviously not GNU/GPL compliant but then it doesn't have to be because the a/c is not part of the FlightGear 'distribution'. (although it would be nice ;-) ) Dave Martin. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Le jeudi 28 juillet 2005 à 14:39 +0100, Dave Martin a écrit : > > Congratulation to the Author. > > > > The flight is wonderful, very accurate. > > > > Only little difficulties under Linux with the "Upper-case, Lower-case" > > mixing (direct.xml => Direct.xml, *.ase => *.ASE, instruments name, and > > flap => Flap). > > > > Arrh MS Windows. > > > > I would fix the faults and make a cross-platform version available but > apparently the License doesn't allow this :( > > Dave Martin. > Is it better to ask to the Author to solve it? I did it on my side We could wonder about the License compatibility with GNU. FlighGear Team should probably discuss that with HCI Lab of the University of Udine, before official FG distribution. That licence goes against our "up to now policy". The HCI Lab licence look like many External developers MSFS Aircraft. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Dave Culp wrote: 3) Making a smoke model that merges well with the others. I've heard (on this list) that this may be a plib limitation. It may require the use of a different visual model, like billboards or particle fields. I'm sure someone has already done some work on particle smoke. ISTR seeing some screenshots a few months ago, but nothing more after that. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release > an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?). We have smoke/contrails now, but they need a lot of work: http://home.comcast.net/~davidculp2/contrails.jpg They look OK from some angles, and look bad from others. I tried to add a smoke generator to the OV-10 model (The real OV-10 can inject oil into the right exhaust stack to make white smoke), but it doesn't look good enough to use. The present system makes smoke/contrails by releasing AI objects rapidly. There are three problems with it now: 1) Orienting the objects properly. Only applies for long (i.e. cylindrical, rectangular) models. 2) Matching the release rate to the airplane's speed. 3) Making a smoke model that merges well with the others. I've heard (on this list) that this may be a plib limitation. It may require the use of a different visual model, like billboards or particle fields. On the other hand, maybe a whole new tactic is needed. Dave ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
> Congratulation to the Author. > > The flight is wonderful, very accurate. > > Only little difficulties under Linux with the "Upper-case, Lower-case" > mixing (direct.xml => Direct.xml, *.ase => *.ASE, instruments name, and > flap => Flap). > > Arrh MS Windows. > I would fix the faults and make a cross-platform version available but apparently the License doesn't allow this :( Dave Martin. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobaticjet
> Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release > an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?). If anyone > at flightgear.org would like to link our MB-339 PAN project in > the "Related Projects" section, we would be very happy. >Bye, Augusto. I will mention it in the upcoming JSBSim newsletter, too. Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
I'm glad that you appreciate our work. Don't miss the video about the making of the MB-339 PAN. We have slightly modified FlightGear source code to enable an head tracking sensor for controlling the cockpit view. The video shows the Capt. Tammaro during the beta-testing of our "Low-Cost Immersive Flight Simulation" with an Head Mounted Display, If you like Frecce Tricolori we have also realeased a 3DWeb based project: http://frecce3d.uniud.it/ Since the MB-339 PAN is an on-going project, we plan to release an improved version of the aircraft (with smokes?). If anyone at flightgear.org would like to link our MB-339 PAN project in the "Related Projects" section, we would be very happy. Bye, Augusto. - Visita http://domini.interfree.it, il sito di Interfree dove trovare soluzioni semplici e complete che soddisfano le tue esigenze in Internet, ecco due esempi di offerte: - Registrazione Dominio: un dominio con 1 MB di spazio disco + 2 caselle email a soli 18,59 euro - MioDominio: un dominio con 20 MB di spazio disco + 5 caselle email a soli 51,13 euro Vieni a trovarci! Lo Staff di Interfree - ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobaticjet
> > Nice model. I particularly like the horizon ball. > > I particularly like the fact that they used FlightGear :-D And I also like the fact that they used JSBSim and started with aeromatic :) Dave ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
Le jeudi 28 juillet 2005 à 08:37 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : > At this site http://hcilab.uniud.it/pan you can download the results of a > joint > project between the HCI Lab of the University of Udine > and the aerobatic team of the Italian Air Force (the > Frecce Tricolori). > > The Lab has produced a detailed, flyable model > of the MB-339 PAN jet. The leader of the Frecce Tricolori > (Capt. Tammaro) was a member of the development team > and beta-tester of the model. Development took about > 1 year, at the end of which the Frecce Tricolori > officially approved the public release of the model. > > > - > Visita http://domini.interfree.it, il sito di Interfree dove trovare > soluzioni semplici e complete che soddisfano le tue esigenze in Internet, > ecco due esempi di offerte: > > - Registrazione Dominio: un dominio con 1 MB di spazio disco + 2 caselle >email a soli 18,59 euro > - MioDominio: un dominio con 20 MB di spazio disco + 5 caselle email >a soli 51,13 euro > > Vieni a trovarci! > > Lo Staff di Interfree > - > > Congratulation to the Author. The flight is wonderful, very accurate. Only little difficulties under Linux with the "Upper-case, Lower-case" mixing (direct.xml => Direct.xml, *.ase => *.ASE, instruments name, and flap => Flap). Arrh MS Windows. Many thanks -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobaticjet
Vivian Meazza wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] At this site http://hcilab.uniud.it/pan you can download the results of a joint project between the HCI Lab of the University of Udine and the aerobatic team of the Italian Air Force (the Frecce Tricolori). The Lab has produced a detailed, flyable model of the MB-339 PAN jet. The leader of the Frecce Tricolori (Capt. Tammaro) was a member of the development team and beta-tester of the model. Development took about 1 year, at the end of which the Frecce Tricolori officially approved the public release of the model. Nice model. I particularly like the horizon ball. I particularly like the fact that they used FlightGear :-D (which means that if they sync with the latest version they will get shadows and 3d clouds for free). Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobaticjet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > At this site http://hcilab.uniud.it/pan you can download the results of a > joint > project between the HCI Lab of the University of Udine > and the aerobatic team of the Italian Air Force (the > Frecce Tricolori). > > The Lab has produced a detailed, flyable model > of the MB-339 PAN jet. The leader of the Frecce Tricolori > (Capt. Tammaro) was a member of the development team > and beta-tester of the model. Development took about > 1 year, at the end of which the Frecce Tricolori > officially approved the public release of the model. > > > - > Visita http://domini.interfree.it, il sito di Interfree dove trovare > soluzioni semplici e complete che soddisfano le tue esigenze in Internet, > ecco due esempi di offerte: > > - Registrazione Dominio: un dominio con 1 MB di spazio disco + 2 caselle >email a soli 18,59 euro > - MioDominio: un dominio con 20 MB di spazio disco + 5 caselle email >a soli 51,13 euro > > Vieni a trovarci! > > Lo Staff di Interfree > - > Nice model. I particularly like the horizon ball. Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Free simulator of the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic jet
At this site http://hcilab.uniud.it/pan you can download the results of a joint project between the HCI Lab of the University of Udine and the aerobatic team of the Italian Air Force (the Frecce Tricolori). The Lab has produced a detailed, flyable model of the MB-339 PAN jet. The leader of the Frecce Tricolori (Capt. Tammaro) was a member of the development team and beta-tester of the model. Development took about 1 year, at the end of which the Frecce Tricolori officially approved the public release of the model. - Visita http://domini.interfree.it, il sito di Interfree dove trovare soluzioni semplici e complete che soddisfano le tue esigenze in Internet, ecco due esempi di offerte: - Registrazione Dominio: un dominio con 1 MB di spazio disco + 2 caselle email a soli 18,59 euro - MioDominio: un dominio con 20 MB di spazio disco + 5 caselle email a soli 51,13 euro Vieni a trovarci! Lo Staff di Interfree - ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
