GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi all, I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking fairly dated, and that finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, digging html5 and css3, and came up with the following design, that you can find here: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste too much time, in case, the majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen here: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html The major design goals of the page are: * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things following a logic Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: Intended main audience: * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, commercial or free, on GNUstep * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite OS/Distribution Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: * End users of any kind * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, Example applications, and screenshots * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites Why chose the main audience above? * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by developers * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep General design goals of the page: * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple * page should work with recent modern browsers * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. * simple wording, short and clear sentences * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) * always all the time visible * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen from the dock at the bottom * the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock at the bottom Some more specific design decisions are based on: * design of the contents of the homepage: * do not overload with information or images, the page should load fast ;) * address the most interesting questions someone looking for GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages * generally inspired from www.gtk.org * Footer/Dock: * show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too * mostly white background * white looks "clean" * but if there are better suggestions, and a different background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.apple.com * make Mac developers feel at home * its simple, looking nice * no submenus, but having submenus there, if agreed on, can easily be added, see an "older" incarnation of the design: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html * the icon on the left is the same as the one clicked at the bottom, in order to signal where the user currently is * grey color in the horizontal menu on the top, and other elements * GNUstep apps are grey, or maybe in the future that will (hopefully) change when another theme gets included in GUI, but the color is chosen in reference to the GUI apps and history to NeXT * but if there are other suggestions for coloring the menu and other elements, and it can be agreed on, then it should be ;) * text alignment is "justified" * differentiate external links: those are marked with icon * News box on front page: * shows news on, releases, hackathons, papers, etc. * shows there is live in the community * New pages: hackathons page and papers page: * show there is live in the community * show there is fun in the community * make use of SSIs, to ease updating, at least for the top menu, and the dock at the bottom, and for example the news box on the front page * The screenshot pages should show off more Themes to underline GNUsteps flexibility in the look 'n feel Design ideas inspired by: * Footer: MAC OS X dock * horizontal top menu: www.apple.com * main page: www.gtk.org * screenshot gallery: www.gtk.org Main Menu structure (the dock at the bottom) * About GNUstep * about the project, and all other advocacy related stuff * Software * information about what the
GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hey guys, I realize this isn't a direct comment on the proposed redesign... The current proposal is nice, but also you should have a look at how Riccardo redid gap. http://gap.nongnu.org GC On Jan 1, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Doug Simons > wrote: On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Markus Hitter wrote: Am 31.12.2013 02:09, schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html First, big compliments for the Dock implementation. It works flawlessly in a mouse/trackpad driven environment. Hovever, menus at the bottom of a web pages / windows are very unusual (the real thing is at the bottom of the screen, which is something different), so it took me a second visit to see it at all. Having a standard menu in the upper region suggested there's no need to search for navigation. I agree that it's unexpected to have a navigation control at the bottom of the window, so many people will miss it. I was totally impressed by the implementation, though -- awesome job! And I agree with Sebastian's points about making the site look modern, cool, and appealing to Mac users. So why not move the dock to the left side? It's not the Mac OS X default, but a lot of people move their docks to the left so it will still be very recognizable to Mac users. And it's a common location for secondary web navigation controls, so even though it may look slightly odd to non-Mac visitors they should be able to use it too. There remains the issue that it might still be slightly less obvious to folks using touch devices. Maybe it would be possible to add titles below the icons for those devices? Overall, this looks to me like a vast improvement over the current site! I think the text of the first paragraph still needs work to focus it more tightly: drop any mention of NeXT and OpenStep, which is only a distraction now, and make Cocoa more prominent. Maybe something like this for the first paragraph: GNUstep is an open-source framework modeled on Apple's Cocoa frameworks to provide a cross-platform API to make it easy to create sophisticated modern software. Ports of OS X software to other platforms and new software development in Objective-C are both supported, with or without a graphical user interface. (And then be sure to include the obligatory trademark disclaimers in the fine print at the bottom of the page to keep Apple's lawyers from getting excited!) Cheers, Doug ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi Sebastian El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió: > Hi all, > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking > fairly dated, and that > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > digging html5 and css3, > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html News at main website, was about to suggest this, because in this way we can do a better use of wiki. Germán. > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste > too much time, in case, the > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen here: > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > The major design goals of the page are: > * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo > * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things > following a logic > > Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: > > Intended main audience: > > * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms > * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, > commercial or free, on GNUstep > * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite > OS/Distribution > > Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: > * End users of any kind > * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, > Example applications, and screenshots > * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites > > Why chose the main audience above? > * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by > developers > * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools > * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers > that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep > > General design goals of the page: > * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience > * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple > * page should work with recent modern browsers > * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 > * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) > * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, >or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. > * simple wording, short and clear sentences > * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop > * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) >* always all the time visible > * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen > from the dock at the bottom >* the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock at > the bottom > Some more specific design decisions are based on: > * design of the contents of the homepage: > * do not overload with information or images, the page should > load fast ;) > * address the most interesting questions someone looking for > GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages > * generally inspired from www.gtk.org > * Footer/Dock: >* show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the > (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too > * mostly white background > * white looks "clean" > * but if there are better suggestions, and a different > background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) > * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.apple.com > * make Mac developers feel at home > * its simple, looking nice > * no submenus, but having submenus there, if agreed on, > can easily be added, see an "older" incarnation of the > design: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > * the icon on the left is the same as the one clicked > at the bottom, in order to signal where the user currently is > * grey color in the horizontal menu on the top, > and other elements > * GNUstep apps are grey, or maybe in the future that > will (hopefully) change when another theme gets > included in GUI, but the color is chosen in reference > to the GUI apps and history to NeXT > * but if there are other suggestions for coloring the > menu and other elements, and it can be agreed on, then > it should be ;) > * text alignment is "justified" > * differentiate external links: those are marked with icon > * News box on front page: > * shows news on, releases, hackathons, papers, etc. > * shows there is live in the community > * New pages: hackathons page and papers page: > * show there is live in the community > * show there is fun in the community > * make use of SSIs, to ease updating, at least for the > top menu, and the dock at the bottom, and for example > the news box on the front page > * The sc
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Sebastian and whoever else is interested in this discussion, I've been following the discussions over the last few weeks but I haven't felt the need to chime in until now. I looked at your example and read through most of your explanation (I must admit, I didn't read it all). I like the general look, and I think it looks much better than the current website look. However, I do not think the dock at the bottom is relevant--there are no such docks available for GNUstep applications. In addition, I'm currently on vacation on only have my tablet, with this interface I can't actually hover over the icons at the bottom and had no idea what they were until after I clicked on them. Nowadays, you need to consider that this is an use case and must cater to people on tablets as well as on desktops. I like the idea of modeling against the gtk.org website, as GNUstep caters to a lot of the same developers. All this said, I think the first thing we must do first is define what is going to be included as "proper" GNUstep. What are we going to include of the "Documentation" menu? Obviously GNUstep-make, -base, -gui and -back are going to have documentation, but what else? Is libobjc2 considered "proper" GNUstep? If so, shouldn't it's documentation be prominently displayed, as well? What other projects will be linked from the website? Richard's EC and WebServer aren't currently mentioned anywhere on the website, only the wiki (at least, that I know of). If these side project are "proper" GNUstep, shouldn't they be integrated with the rest of the project? Additional thought: * Are we going to continue supporting Nikolaus' Software Index? If so, how can that be better integrated with the new website? The current design looks very foreign. Is it even something that we will continue to support? Overall, I think the design is good and I would support the effort in whatever way I can (I know absolutely nothing about HTML or CSS, but can help with content and structure). On Dec 30, 2013 8:10 PM, "Sebastian Reitenbach" < sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > Hi all, > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > looking fairly dated, and that > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > digging html5 and css3, > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste > too much time, in case, the > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen > here: > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > The major design goals of the page are: > * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo > * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things > following a logic > > Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: > > Intended main audience: > > * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms > * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, > commercial or free, on GNUstep > * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite > OS/Distribution > > Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: > * End users of any kind > * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, > Example applications, and screenshots > * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites > > Why chose the main audience above? > * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by > developers > * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools > * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers > that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep > > General design goals of the page: > * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience > * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple > * page should work with recent modern browsers > * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 > * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) > * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, >or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. > * simple wording, short and clear sentences > * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop > * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) >* always all the time visible > * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen > from the dock at the bottom >* the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock > at the bottom > Some more specific design decisions are based on: > * design of the contents of the homepage: > * do not overload with information or im
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 04:17 CET, Stefan Bidi wrote: > Sebastian and whoever else is interested in this discussion, > I've been following the discussions over the last few weeks but I haven't > felt the need to chime in until now. > > I looked at your example and read through most of your explanation (I must > admit, I didn't read it all). I like the general look, and I think it > looks much better than the current website look. However, I do not think > the dock at the bottom is relevant--there are no such docks available for > GNUstep applications. In addition, I'm currently on vacation on only have GWorkspace has the dock on the left or right side. The idea was for Apple Devs, they would recognize the dock immediately, and know what to do with it, but my assumption may be wrong ;) Anyways, if the group agrees that the dock is nice, but plainly wrong for the website, I can drop it from the design. But then need to re-evaluate the menu structure. > my tablet, with this interface I can't actually hover over the icons at the > bottom and had no idea what they were until after I clicked on them. > Nowadays, you need to consider that this is an use case and must cater to > people on tablets as well as on desktops. > > I like the idea of modeling against the gtk.org website, as GNUstep caters > to a lot of the same developers. > > All this said, I think the first thing we must do first is define what is > going to be included as "proper" GNUstep. What are we going to include of > the "Documentation" menu? Obviously GNUstep-make, -base, -gui and -back > are going to have documentation, but what else? Is libobjc2 considered > "proper" GNUstep? If so, shouldn't it's documentation be prominently > displayed, as well? What other projects will be linked from the website? > Richard's EC and WebServer aren't currently mentioned anywhere on the > website, only the wiki (at least, that I know of). If these side project > are "proper" GNUstep, shouldn't they be integrated with the rest of the > project? I think the first is clarify: * Are my assumptions right about the main audience, as stated in the README file? If not, then this should be made clear, and agreed on. Based on that outcome, the style/content can be addressed to the audience. * Maybe re-evaluate the menu structure. I.e. only a menu on the top, and dropping the dock at the bottom. Make the menu then have more levels i.e. like in one of my previous attempts: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html OR I'm open for other menu suggestions. Basically, the menu structure I intended to have, see below. One of the first things is to agree on a menu/site structure. * Assuming my assumptions about the main audience are not too wrong, I'd still start small with the new webpage. Then extending it. First start with the core stuff, i.e. make/base/gui/back, and also including libobjc2. Further including Gorm and Projectcenter, GWorkspace and SystemPreferences. * Then, when all this contents is there, and the group agreed on adding information about the other libs/tools hosted in SVN, I'd be happy to add contents about it on the website. > > Additional thought: > * Are we going to continue supporting Nikolaus' Software Index? If so, how > can that be better integrated with the new website? The current design > looks very foreign. Is it even something that we will continue to support? As far as I can see, It's just php, so, I don't think it should be too hard to tweak it to fit into the look and feel. But I would care about the softwareindex then later, after the main pages are done. > > Overall, I think the design is good and I would support the effort in > whatever way I can (I know absolutely nothing about HTML or CSS, but can > help with content and structure). Basically, the last web page, pure html 4.01, without CSS I've done is at least 5 years ago ;) My knowledge about HTML/CSS is just from only the last month or two. cheers, Sebastian > On Dec 30, 2013 8:10 PM, "Sebastian Reitenbach" < > sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > > looking fairly dated, and that > > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > > digging html5 and css3, > > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste > > too much time, in case, the > > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen > > here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > > > The majo
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 31 Dec 2013, at 03:17, Stefan Bidi wrote: > All this said, I think the first thing we must do first is define what is > going to be included as "proper" GNUstep. What are we going to include of > the "Documentation" menu? Obviously GNUstep-make, -base, -gui and -back are > going to have documentation, but what else? Is libobjc2 considered "proper" > GNUstep? If so, shouldn't it's documentation be prominently displayed, as > well? What other projects will be linked from the website? Richard's EC and > WebServer aren't currently mentioned anywhere on the website, only the wiki > (at least, that I know of). If these side project are "proper" GNUstep, > shouldn't they be integrated with the rest of the project? I would say that 'proper' gnustep is what we used to refer to as 'core' (make/base/gui/back) plus Gorm (the one 'properly' supported tool nearly essential for gui development). There are then four things which I really think we want to add ASAP, by which I mean, as soon as we can really properly support / implement them: THEMES; We need at least one gnu/linux and one windows theme, and we ought to bundle them as paret of the core system. OBJC2; We ought to have libobjc2 and a reference copy of clang (we need to get proper gnustep-make integration for them before we can consider them supported/supportable). MACUSER; We need truly simplemac user porting mechanism (virtual machine and/or xcode integration package) ... being able cross-compile directly from xcode would be nice, but a couple of VMs with GNUstep installed on them would probably be achivable quicker. MOBILE; For want of a better term ... implementing new/improverd graphics stuff and porting to android etc. The there's all the stuff which should probably never be parrt of GNUstep proper (ie core); That would be development libraries which use GNUstep and make life easier for people using gnustep (including much of the stuff I've contributed). That would also be development tools built on the GNUstep core, but not polished enough to be easily suipported by the core team That would also be all the wonderful apps in GAP and Etoile etc So for me there's a break-down into GNUstep (the core, supported stuff), Future (hot projects), and Extra (things built using GNUstep) which I think ought to be really clear on the website; We want people to know what's there now and well supported We want people to know what's coming soon and where they can help most We want people to know about all the cool stuff that uses GNUstep and makes it look good We also want people to join in and help rather than complaining about problems which aren't part of core ... keeping a clear separation ought to help with that. We ought to make it explicit who is supporting what, and to what extent support/development is being done (and whether we are looking for a volunteer to support any pasrticular thing). ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 31.12.2013 02:09, schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach: > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > looking fairly dated, and that finding contents in it, is somtetimes > only possible with help of google. the last few days I spent on > thinking about the website, what it may need, digging html5 and > css3, and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html First, big compliments for the Dock implementation. It works flawlessly in a mouse/trackpad driven environment. Hovever, menus at the bottom of a web pages / windows are very unusual (the real thing is at the bottom of the screen, which is something different), so it took me a second visit to see it at all. Having a standard menu in the upper region suggested there's no need to search for navigation. Can these two be joined? Either by removing the top menu, putting a dark bar below the dock at the bottom for better recognition and making the text bubbles (tooltips) permanent for the touch screen users. Or by adding the dock upside down to the menu bar. Either way we'd have a nice animation for Mac evangelists and reasonable standard behaviour for ordinary visitors. Markus -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.reprap-diy.com/ http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi Guys, the doc idea is fun, but I think we should avoid any mouseover and other effects and make it as simple and clean as possible. It should also work on small touch screens. If you do not have an iphone, you can get Xcode for the mac and try it in the simulator. Otherwise try the browser in an android simulator :-) Cheers, David On Dec 30, 2013, at 20:09, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi David, I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (except for the menus). I had no time to follow and to reply all the threads sorry. I do not like Sebastian's design too much aesthetically, however he has valid points in the website restructuring, which needs to be done anyway also for the design I have in mind. I'll layout some ideas I have discussed with Greg as soon as I can. I hope that we can share ideas and efforts there. Actually, the best would be to start the restructuring using the current, proven look and later apply a "new" look. Riccardo David Wetzel wrote: Hi Guys, the doc idea is fun, but I think we should avoid any mouseover and other effects and make it as simple and clean as possible. It should also work on small touch screens. If you do not have an iphone, you can get Xcode for the mac and try it in the simulator. Otherwise try the browser in an android simulator :-) Cheers, David On Dec 30, 2013, at 20:09, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Markus Hitter wrote: > Am 31.12.2013 02:09, schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach: > >> https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > First, big compliments for the Dock implementation. It works flawlessly > in a mouse/trackpad driven environment. > > Hovever, menus at the bottom of a web pages / windows are very unusual > (the real thing is at the bottom of the screen, which is something > different), so it took me a second visit to see it at all. Having a > standard menu in the upper region suggested there's no need to search > for navigation. I agree that it's unexpected to have a navigation control at the bottom of the window, so many people will miss it. I was totally impressed by the implementation, though -- awesome job! And I agree with Sebastian's points about making the site look modern, cool, and appealing to Mac users. So why not move the dock to the left side? It's not the Mac OS X default, but a lot of people move their docks to the left so it will still be very recognizable to Mac users. And it's a common location for secondary web navigation controls, so even though it may look slightly odd to non-Mac visitors they should be able to use it too. There remains the issue that it might still be slightly less obvious to folks using touch devices. Maybe it would be possible to add titles below the icons for those devices? Overall, this looks to me like a vast improvement over the current site! I think the text of the first paragraph still needs work to focus it more tightly: drop any mention of NeXT and OpenStep, which is only a distraction now, and make Cocoa more prominent. Maybe something like this for the first paragraph: GNUstep is an open-source framework modeled on Apple's Cocoa frameworks to provide a cross-platform API to make it easy to create sophisticated modern software. Ports of OS X software to other platforms and new software development in Objective-C are both supported, with or without a graphical user interface. (And then be sure to include the obligatory trademark disclaimers in the fine print at the bottom of the page to keep Apple's lawyers from getting excited!) Cheers, Doug ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
I like it! Except for the colors and the font. Colors are consistent to our current look, but maybe the website can encourage a different, brighter color scheme? This is especially painful in the newsbox (black on very dark-grey) and to an extent in the menu. Also, do we need two logos in the header? How about we drop the right one? Or if that'd leave the area empty (it doesn't seem it will), possibly replacing it with some sort of motto? Finally, since the old site and the wiki (probably) have more info for now, maybe we want to have a transition period where we link to the old site? Do we care about preserving functioning of existing links? I agree with comments on the location and suitability of the dock; it's really nice, but will not be intuitive to find it and click on it. If we want to keep it (see off-list mail), Doug's suggestion of moving it to left sounds reasonable. I really like the glowing 'GNUstep logo' on the left in the menu, by the way -- a really nice touch :-) On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach < sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > Hi all, > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > looking fairly dated, and that > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > digging html5 and css3, > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste > too much time, in case, the > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen > here: > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > The major design goals of the page are: > * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo > * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things > following a logic > > Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: > > Intended main audience: > > * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms > * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, > commercial or free, on GNUstep > * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite > OS/Distribution > > Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: > * End users of any kind > * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, > Example applications, and screenshots > * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites > > Why chose the main audience above? > * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by > developers > * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools > * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers > that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep > > General design goals of the page: > * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience > * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple > * page should work with recent modern browsers > * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 > * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) > * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, >or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. > * simple wording, short and clear sentences > * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop > * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) >* always all the time visible > * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen > from the dock at the bottom >* the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock > at the bottom > Some more specific design decisions are based on: > * design of the contents of the homepage: > * do not overload with information or images, the page should > load fast ;) > * address the most interesting questions someone looking for > GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages > * generally inspired from www.gtk.org > * Footer/Dock: >* show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the > (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too > * mostly white background > * white looks "clean" > * but if there are better suggestions, and a different > background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) > * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.apple.com > * make Mac developers feel at home > * its simple, looking nice > * no submenus, but having submenus there, if agreed on, > can easily be added, see an "older" incarnation of the > design: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > * the icon on the left is the same as the one clicked > at the bottom, in order to signal where the user currently is > * grey color in the horizontal menu on the top, >
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
I don't like the use of the old gorm icon. On Monday, December 30, 2013, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > looking fairly dated, and that > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > digging html5 and css3, > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste > too much time, in case, the > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen > here: > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > The major design goals of the page are: > * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo > * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things > following a logic > > Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: > > Intended main audience: > > * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms > * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, > commercial or free, on GNUstep > * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite > OS/Distribution > > Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: > * End users of any kind > * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, > Example applications, and screenshots > * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites > > Why chose the main audience above? > * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by > developers > * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools > * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers > that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep > > General design goals of the page: > * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience > * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple > * page should work with recent modern browsers > * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 > * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) > * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, >or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. > * simple wording, short and clear sentences > * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop > * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) >* always all the time visible > * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen > from the dock at the bottom >* the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock > at the bottom > Some more specific design decisions are based on: > * design of the contents of the homepage: > * do not overload with information or images, the page should > load fast ;) > * address the most interesting questions someone looking for > GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages > * generally inspired from www.gtk.org > * Footer/Dock: >* show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the > (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too > * mostly white background > * white looks "clean" > * but if there are better suggestions, and a different > background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) > * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.apple.com > * make Mac developers feel at home > * its simple, looking nice > * no submenus, but having submenus there, if agreed on, > can easily be added, see an "older" incarnation of the > design: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > * the icon on the left is the same as the one clicked > at the bottom, in order to signal where the user currently is > * grey color in the horizontal menu on the top, > and other elements > * GNUstep apps are grey, or maybe in the future that > will (hopefully) change when another theme gets > included in GUI, but the color is chosen in reference > to the GUI apps and history to NeXT > * but if there are other suggestions for coloring the > menu and other elements, and it can be agreed on, then > it should be ;) > * text alignment is "justified" > * differentiate external links: those are marked with icon > * News box on front page: > * shows news on, releases, hackathons, papers, etc. > * shows there is live in the community > * New pages: hackathons page and papers page: > * show there is live in the community > * show there is fun in the community > * make use of SSIs, to ease updating, at least for the > top menu, and the dock at the bottom, and for example > the news box on the front page > * The screenshot pages should show off more Themes to > underline GNUsteps flexibility in the look 'n feel > > De
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, On Thursday, January 2, 2014 04:05 CET, Gregory Casamento wrote: > I don't like the use of the old gorm icon. So I now can assume that you like everything else besides that icon? cheers, Sebastian > > On Monday, December 30, 2013, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > > looking fairly dated, and that > > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > > digging html5 and css3, > > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste > > too much time, in case, the > > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen > > here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > > > The major design goals of the page are: > > * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo > > * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things > > following a logic > > > > Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: > > > > Intended main audience: > > > > * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms > > * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, > > commercial or free, on GNUstep > > * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite > > OS/Distribution > > > > Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: > > * End users of any kind > > * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, > > Example applications, and screenshots > > * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites > > > > Why chose the main audience above? > > * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by > > developers > > * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools > > * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers > > that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep > > > > General design goals of the page: > > * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience > > * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple > > * page should work with recent modern browsers > > * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 > > * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) > > * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, > >or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. > > * simple wording, short and clear sentences > > * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop > > * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) > >* always all the time visible > > * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen > > from the dock at the bottom > >* the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock > > at the bottom > > Some more specific design decisions are based on: > > * design of the contents of the homepage: > > * do not overload with information or images, the page should > > load fast ;) > > * address the most interesting questions someone looking for > > GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages > > * generally inspired from www.gtk.org > > * Footer/Dock: > >* show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the > > (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too > > * mostly white background > > * white looks "clean" > > * but if there are better suggestions, and a different > > background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) > > * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.apple.com > > * make Mac developers feel at home > > * its simple, looking nice > > * no submenus, but having submenus there, if agreed on, > > can easily be added, see an "older" incarnation of the > > design: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > > * the icon on the left is the same as the one clicked > > at the bottom, in order to signal where the user currently is > > * grey color in the horizontal menu on the top, > > and other elements > > * GNUstep apps are grey, or maybe in the future that > > will (hopefully) change when another theme gets > > included in GUI, but the color is chosen in reference > > to the GUI apps and history to NeXT > > * but if there are other suggestions for coloring the > > menu and other elements, and it can be agreed on, then > > it should be ;) > > * text alignment is "justified" > > * differentiate external links: those are marked with icon > > * News box on front page: > > * shows news on, releases, hackathons, papers, etc. > > * shows there is live in the community > > * New pages: hack
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, On Thursday, January 2, 2014 04:04 CET, Gregory Casamento wrote: > Hey guys, > > I realize this isn't a direct comment on the proposed redesign... The > current proposal is nice, but also you should have a look at how Riccardo > redid gap. http://gap.nongnu.org I've seen it already some days ago, and I answered on that in the smaller round before, but will repeat, with some more comments: What I like is the top menu, but this huge blob of text below it, is a bit too heavy. The rest of the front page looks fairly "boxed", and I don't think that a link to every app on GAP has to be on the main page. Further, the news section is at the bottom, you have to scroll down to get aware of it. Also the FTP page he changed, the app icon now is in the middle of those two horizontal rules just looks a bit displaced, and wastes a lot of space. There is also a link behind it, for no reason. Also the links as buttons look odd, especially when you look at it with a small screen, how they do line up. As I wrote before in a smaller round, as an active GAP member, and there aren't that many, I find it a bit odd Riccardo experimenting with the life website, but not announcing it before to the GAP members. I would have liked to give input for that pages and style, if he would have presented a proposal about his new design, and some concept behind it. Sebastian > > GC > > > On Jan 1, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Doug Simons > 'doug.sim...@testplant.com');>> > wrote: > > > On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Markus Hitter wrote: > > Am 31.12.2013 02:09, schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > > First, big compliments for the Dock implementation. It works flawlessly > in a mouse/trackpad driven environment. > > Hovever, menus at the bottom of a web pages / windows are very unusual > (the real thing is at the bottom of the screen, which is something > different), so it took me a second visit to see it at all. Having a > standard menu in the upper region suggested there's no need to search > for navigation. > > > I agree that it's unexpected to have a navigation control at the bottom of > the window, so many people will miss it. I was totally impressed by the > implementation, though -- awesome job! And I agree with Sebastian's points > about making the site look modern, cool, and appealing to Mac users. So why > not move the dock to the left side? It's not the Mac OS X default, but a > lot of people move their docks to the left so it will still be very > recognizable to Mac users. And it's a common location for secondary web > navigation controls, so even though it may look slightly odd to non-Mac > visitors they should be able to use it too. > > There remains the issue that it might still be slightly less obvious to > folks using touch devices. Maybe it would be possible to add titles below > the icons for those devices? > > Overall, this looks to me like a vast improvement over the current site! I > think the text of the first paragraph still needs work to focus it more > tightly: drop any mention of NeXT and OpenStep, which is only a distraction > now, and make Cocoa more prominent. Maybe something like this for the first > paragraph: > > GNUstep is an open-source framework modeled on Apple's Cocoa frameworks to > provide a cross-platform API to make it easy to create sophisticated modern > software. Ports of OS X software to other platforms and new software > development in Objective-C are both supported, with or without a graphical > user interface. > > (And then be sure to include the obligatory trademark disclaimers in the > fine print at the bottom of the page to keep Apple's lawyers from getting > excited!) > > Cheers, > > Doug > > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > > > > > -- > Gregory Casamento > Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant > yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa > (240)274-9630 (Cell) > http://www.gnustep.org > http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 19:18 CET, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Hi David, > > I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for > website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has > only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (except > for the menus). > > I had no time to follow and to reply all the threads sorry. I do not > like Sebastian's design too much aesthetically, however he has valid > points in the website restructuring, which needs to be done anyway also > for the design I have in mind. I'll layout some ideas I have discussed > with Greg as soon as I can. I hope that we can share ideas and efforts > there. Maybe you could create a PoC webpage somewhere, to better show off what you have in mind and discussed with Greg? Also why your design then ended up as is, some background information would be nice ;) Then I think it will be easier to take the best ideas from both designs, and combine the work. > > Actually, the best would be to start the restructuring using the > current, proven look and later apply a "new" look. For me this sounds than much more work than doing a radical change. Now you are going to touch every page, restructuring, then you go touch the pages again, applying the nits needed for the new CSS and style to work? To everyone else, thanks for the feedback so far. I'll collect it, and send a summary, I think latest on the weekend. cheers, Sebastian > > Riccardo > > David Wetzel wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > the doc idea is fun, but I think we should avoid any mouseover and other > > effects and make it as simple and clean as possible. > > It should also work on small touch screens. > > > > If you do not have an iphone, you can get Xcode for the mac and try it in > > the simulator. > > Otherwise try the browser in an android simulator :-) > > > > Cheers, > > > > David > > > > On Dec 30, 2013, at 20:09, Sebastian Reitenbach > > wrote: > > > >> https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > > ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Sebastian, No, that's not the only thing I don't like. Here's the list of things that I'm thinking so far... 1) The proposed design resembles one from years ago... http://web.archive.org/web/20031225092930/http://gnustep.org/ Not EXACTLY the same, but it puts me in mind of it for some reason that I can't put my finger on. 2) The Dock is not centered on the content, it's a little off center... I know this is just a mock up now, but it's distracting. 3) Is the dock really needed if we have the menus on the top as in Riccardo's redesign of GAP? 4) The Design is not very minimal. One of the recent trends in design is minimalism. These are not blockers and, of course, whatever the majority thinks is best is what should prevail. These are just my thoughts. Greg On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 4:49 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach < sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > Hi, > > On Thursday, January 2, 2014 04:05 CET, Gregory Casamento < > greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I don't like the use of the old gorm icon. > > So I now can assume that you like everything else besides that icon? > > cheers, > Sebastian > > > > > > On Monday, December 30, 2013, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is > > > looking fairly dated, and that > > > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of > google. > > > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may > need, > > > digging html5 and css3, > > > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > > > > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > > > > > Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to > waste > > > too much time, in case, the > > > majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. > > > > > > Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be > seen > > > here: > > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html > > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html > > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html > > > > > > The major design goals of the page are: > > > * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo > > > * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things > > > following a logic > > > > > > Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: > > > > > > Intended main audience: > > > > > > * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms > > > * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, > > > commercial or free, on GNUstep > > > * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite > > > OS/Distribution > > > > > > Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: > > > * End users of any kind > > > * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, > > > Example applications, and screenshots > > > * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites > > > > > > Why chose the main audience above? > > > * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by > > > developers > > > * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools > > > * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers > > > that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep > > > > > > General design goals of the page: > > > * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience > > > * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple > > > * page should work with recent modern browsers > > > * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 > > > * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK > ;) > > > * but who is really using a browser that does not understand > HTML5/CSS3, > > >or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old > browsers. > > > * simple wording, short and clear sentences > > > * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop > > > * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) > > >* always all the time visible > > > * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen > > > from the dock at the bottom > > >* the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the > dock > > > at the bottom > > > Some more specific design decisions are based on: > > > * design of the contents of the homepage: > > > * do not overload with information or images, the page should > > > load fast ;) > > > * address the most interesting questions someone looking for > > > GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages > > > * generally inspired from www.gtk.org > > > * Footer/Dock: > > >* show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the > > > (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too > > > * mostly white background > > > * white looks "clean" > > > * but if there are better suggestions, and a different > > > background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) > > > * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.app
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Sebastian, On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:11 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach < sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 19:18 CET, Riccardo Mottola > wrote: > > > Hi David, > > > > I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for > > website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has > > only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (except > > for the menus). > > > > I had no time to follow and to reply all the threads sorry. I do not > > like Sebastian's design too much aesthetically, however he has valid > > points in the website restructuring, which needs to be done anyway also > > for the design I have in mind. I'll layout some ideas I have discussed > > > with Greg as soon as I can. I hope that we can share ideas and efforts > > there. > > Maybe you could create a PoC webpage somewhere, to better show > off what you have in mind and discussed with Greg? > Also why your design then ended up as is, some background information > would be nice ;) > I agree. It would be nice to have an example to work on. > Then I think it will be easier to take the best ideas from both designs, > and > combine the work. Also agreed. > > Actually, the best would be to start the restructuring using the > > current, proven look and later apply a "new" look. > > For me this sounds than much more work than doing a radical change. > Now you are going to touch every page, restructuring, then you go > touch the pages again, applying the nits needed for the new CSS and > style to work? > I disagree with Riccardo here in the sense that the current look is not "proven" at all. What needs to happen is a radical redesign of the site and an entirely new way of presenting the information on it. I hate to sound like a business person, but our recent discussion on the list with Doc O'Leary did yield a few unpleasant revelations.One of which is that our message is entirely confusing and that the website is a big part of that. > To everyone else, thanks for the feedback so far. I'll collect it, and > send a summary, I think latest on the weekend. > Thanks, GC > cheers, > Sebastian -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Whatever design we end up, I think now it's right time to propose we implement it using some web-editable CMS. >From my experience with it, Wordpress would probably suit us well and would allow a trusted set of people to edit the website. (And being able to contribute a stream of news and articles is only a bonus.) I'm not sure a wiki would be able to masquerade as a website, but it would certainly complement it. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach < sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 19:18 CET, Riccardo Mottola > wrote: > > > Hi David, > > > > I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for > > website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has > > only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (except > > for the menus). > > > > I had no time to follow and to reply all the threads sorry. I do not > > like Sebastian's design too much aesthetically, however he has valid > > points in the website restructuring, which needs to be done anyway also > > for the design I have in mind. I'll layout some ideas I have discussed > > > with Greg as soon as I can. I hope that we can share ideas and efforts > > there. > > Maybe you could create a PoC webpage somewhere, to better show > off what you have in mind and discussed with Greg? > Also why your design then ended up as is, some background information > would be nice ;) > > Then I think it will be easier to take the best ideas from both designs, > and > combine the work. > > > > > Actually, the best would be to start the restructuring using the > > current, proven look and later apply a "new" look. > > For me this sounds than much more work than doing a radical change. > Now you are going to touch every page, restructuring, then you go > touch the pages again, applying the nits needed for the new CSS and > style to work? > > To everyone else, thanks for the feedback so far. I'll collect it, and > send a summary, I think latest on the weekend. > > cheers, > Sebastian > > > > > Riccardo > > > > David Wetzel wrote: > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > the doc idea is fun, but I think we should avoid any mouseover and > other effects and make it as simple and clean as possible. > > > It should also work on small touch screens. > > > > > > If you do not have an iphone, you can get Xcode for the mac and try it > in the simulator. > > > Otherwise try the browser in an android simulator :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > David > > > > > > On Dec 30, 2013, at 20:09, Sebastian Reitenbach < > sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > > > > > >> https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > -- Ivan Vučica i...@vucica.net ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
I'm all for this idea. GC On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Ivan Vučica wrote: > Whatever design we end up, I think now it's right time to propose we > implement it using some web-editable CMS. > > From my experience with it, Wordpress would probably suit us well and > would allow a trusted set of people to edit the website. (And being able to > contribute a stream of news and articles is only a bonus.) > > I'm not sure a wiki would be able to masquerade as a website, but it would > certainly complement it. > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach < > sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > >> >> On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 19:18 CET, Riccardo Mottola >> wrote: >> >> > Hi David, >> > >> > I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for >> > website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has >> > only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (except >> > for the menus). >> > >> > I had no time to follow and to reply all the threads sorry. I do not >> > like Sebastian's design too much aesthetically, however he has valid >> > points in the website restructuring, which needs to be done anyway also >> > for the design I have in mind. I'll layout some ideas I have discussed >> >> > with Greg as soon as I can. I hope that we can share ideas and efforts >> > there. >> >> Maybe you could create a PoC webpage somewhere, to better show >> off what you have in mind and discussed with Greg? >> Also why your design then ended up as is, some background information >> would be nice ;) >> >> Then I think it will be easier to take the best ideas from both designs, >> and >> combine the work. >> >> > >> > Actually, the best would be to start the restructuring using the >> > current, proven look and later apply a "new" look. >> >> For me this sounds than much more work than doing a radical change. >> Now you are going to touch every page, restructuring, then you go >> touch the pages again, applying the nits needed for the new CSS and >> style to work? >> >> To everyone else, thanks for the feedback so far. I'll collect it, and >> send a summary, I think latest on the weekend. >> >> cheers, >> Sebastian >> >> > >> > Riccardo >> > >> > David Wetzel wrote: >> > > Hi Guys, >> > > >> > > the doc idea is fun, but I think we should avoid any mouseover and >> other effects and make it as simple and clean as possible. >> > > It should also work on small touch screens. >> > > >> > > If you do not have an iphone, you can get Xcode for the mac and try >> it in the simulator. >> > > Otherwise try the browser in an android simulator :-) >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > >> > > David >> > > >> > > On Dec 30, 2013, at 20:09, Sebastian Reitenbach < >> sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: >> > > >> > >> https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Gnustep-dev mailing list >> Gnustep-dev@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev >> > > > > -- > Ivan Vučica > i...@vucica.net > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > > -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 2 Jan 2014, at 20:27, Gregory Casamento wrote: > I disagree with Riccardo here in the sense that the current look is not > "proven" at all. What needs to happen is a radical redesign of the site and > an entirely new way of presenting the information on it. I agree with this ... current design is not proven (and while radical redesign may not be necessary, it seems worth trying). > I hate to sound like a business person, but our recent discussion on the list > with Doc O'Leary did yield a few unpleasant revelations.One of which is > that our message is entirely confusing and that the website is a big part of > that. I'm less sure about this ... it's actually perfectly plausible that no change we can make will significantly improve the clarity of the message ... the mere fact that one person failed to see it is no proof (or even particularly strong evidence) that there is something badly wrong. If there's one thing I've learned about business/marketing, it's that people tend to screw up by taking complaints too seriously. When you change to address complaints it's all too easy to make things worse by losing the things a majority like in order to deal with the criticism of a noisy minority. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 02.01.2014 22:05, schrieb Richard Frith-Macdonald: > > On 2 Jan 2014, at 20:27, Gregory Casamento > wrote: > >> I disagree with Riccardo here in the sense that the current look >> is not "proven" at all. What needs to happen is a radical >> redesign of the site and an entirely new way of presenting the >> information on it. > > I agree with this ... current design is not proven (and while > radical redesign may not be necessary, it seems worth trying). > >> I hate to sound like a business person, but our recent discussion >> on the list with Doc O'Leary did yield a few unpleasant >> revelations.One of which is that our message is entirely >> confusing and that the website is a big part of that. I think the Wine project has a somewhat similar audience and similar development targets as GNUstep. Their website is always very mature and clean: http://www.winehq.org/ You see: just one sentence about what the project is, then a couple of links which easily fit into the smallest screen. If somebody wants to learn about details, he'll happily click through a few links. If GNUstep can't explain what it is in a single sentence ... then that's a problem. On the PPA page I currently use this: > GNUstep is a free implementation of Apples Cocoa (Foundation, > AppKit, etc.) coming along with many additions, like WebObjects, and > is written in (of course) Objective-C. It is known to work on Linux, > *BSD, MS Windows and also (using Apples own libraries) on Mac OS X. > Extending support to iOS' UIKit appears to be not impossible. For my taste not perfect, but reasonable. - - - > If there's one thing I've learned about business/marketing, it's > that people tend to screw up by taking complaints too seriously. When > you change to address complaints it's all too easy to make things > worse by losing the things a majority like in order to deal with the > criticism of a noisy minority. This partly matches my experience. You screw up easily if you do exactly what these people suggest. Still they point out a problem and you should have addressed this problem; their way or another way. Markus -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.reprap-diy.com/ http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 01.01.2014 um 19:18 schrieb Riccardo Mottola: > Hi David, > > I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for website > coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, This one looks nice! A clean, modern layout without distraction. Just a little idea. Maybe the top navigation could behave like the top navigation here: http://www.taz.de/ ? Would you like this idea? cheers, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 31.12.2013 um 02:09 schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach: > Hi all, > > I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking > fairly dated, and that > finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. > the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, > digging html5 and css3, > and came up with the following design, that you can find here: > > https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html While nicely and cleanly done, the proposal reminds me somewhat of http://www.gtk.org/. I am not sure if this is a good idea, in my opinion people could come to the conclusion that we're now some kind of sister project of GTK. Which is a strange Idea as everyone involved with GNUstep would confirm, but do outsiders know? Is this just me and my view at the layout or are others see it the same? cheers, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
In your opinion, how many people would have to make noise so that it would no longer be considered as emanating from a minority? And through what outlet should they voice themselves -- would it be by subscribing to and posting to this mailing list (and then unsubscribing)? If you wanted to gauge the size of the population who is confused by the website's message in the most friction-free manner, you should probably run a poll on the website itself. Best, Patryk > On Jan 2, 2014, at 13:05, Richard Frith-Macdonald > wrote: > > When you change to address complaints it's all too easy to make things worse > by losing the things a majority like in order to deal with the criticism of a > noisy minority. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 3 Jan 2014, at 01:55, Patryk Laurent wrote: > > In your opinion, how many people would have to make noise so that it would no > longer be considered as emanating from a minority? I think you are taking my comment more literally than intended (in that spirit, a minority is anything under 50% of all people concerned), but that's not what I was talking about. In this case we were talking about just one person, and one from whom it took a lot of effort to get any specific/concrete points. In fact it ought to be obvious that I (and most others posting on the list) do pay attention to even a minority of one. All I was saying was that we should remind ourselves not to over-estimate the value of one person's opinions, and not to overestimate the value of the opinions of those who shout loudest ... we must bear in mind that there is a larger community not shouting, and try to work out what the quiet people think too. It's a mistake to think that the people making the noise are representative of the community as a whole (they might be, but there's no good reason to think they are). The points I grasped from Doc on the kickstarter thread (I wasn't around for the whole thread, and may well have missed a few) were: 1. he didn't like the website, but we all want to improve that, have been talking about it for ages etc. That's clearly a work in progress which is great, but the basic point didn't help much (though the noise has stimulated activity a bit, which is good). It's great that we have people willing and able to work on this. 2. he thought gnustep has no purpose/goal ... but that's been clearly stated many times and nobody else seems to have much of a problem with it. Perhaps rather than simply stating what GNUstep is at the top of the home page, we should prefix it with 'Goal:' in a very large font :-) Actually, that's semi-serious, it may be that it would help to tag and formally identify the 'mission statement' rather than just putting it at the top of the home page. However, this is one of those areas where changing might make things works for all I know. 3. he said gnustep is actively hostile to mac users. That's just silly as I can see nothing to suggest that on the website, and can only think the idea comes from a few comments on the mailing list combined with the fact that we provide nothing to actually run *on* OSX (because, in the nature of being a porting project, we've been expecting people to take their source from OSC and run it on other systems), but it's reasonable to think how/whether we can prioritise making things easier for them. I like the idea of a VM for use on OSX and I like the idea of building gnustep stuff from xcode (I hate using xcode myself and have no idea where to start, but it makes sense for anyone who uses/likes it). Unfortunately nobody has volunteered to do either of these. :-( For the VM ... I might be able to do that if other people think its worthwhile, and if we can figure out *which* virtualisation technology makes sense for OSX users. For xcode, the suggestion of taking cocotron as an example sounds good to me, but I'm completely unfamiliar with xcode, so I don't have the skill to get started. > And through what outlet should they voice themselves -- would it be by > subscribing to and posting to this mailing list (and then unsubscribing)? Not sure what you mean about subscribing and unsubscribing. I don't think you have to subscribe to post, but if you are interested enough to subscribe then I hope you will get involved and stay subscribed. > If you wanted to gauge the size of the population who is confused by the > website's message in the most friction-free manner, you should probably run a > poll on the website itself. Good point, but I think we need to poll more specific questions; we already have a long standing consensus that we want to make the web site better (more appealing, more informative, easier to find things etc), but no data on specifically how/why anything might actually be confusing. Could we formulate a series of questions about things we think have the potential to be confusing? ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: On 31 Dec 2013, at 03:17, Stefan Bidi wrote: I would say that 'proper' gnustep is what we used to refer to as 'core' (make/base/gui/back) plus Gorm (the one 'properly' supported tool nearly essential for gui development). There are then four things which I really think we want to add ASAP, by which I mean, as soon as we can really properly support / implement them: THEMES; We need at least one gnu/linux and one windows theme, and we ought to bundle them as paret of the core system. OBJC2; We ought to have libobjc2 and a reference copy of clang (we need to get proper gnustep-make integration for them before we can consider them supported/supportable). Do you mean a gnustep-make makefile instead of cmake? MACUSER; We need truly simplemac user porting mechanism (virtual machine and/or xcode integration package) ... being able cross-compile directly from xcode would be nice, but a couple of VMs with GNUstep installed on them would probably be achivable quicker. MOBILE; For want of a better term ... implementing new/improverd graphics stuff and porting to android etc. All of the things you mention should have their sections on the website. Some of them, like theming, are interesting both for the "user" and for the "developer". Different "views" The there's all the stuff which should probably never be parrt of GNUstep proper (ie core); That would be development libraries which use GNUstep and make life easier for people using gnustep (including much of the stuff I've contributed). That would also be development tools built on the GNUstep core, but not polished enough to be easily suipported by the core team Do you think mentioning them on the website among the developer tools is good? Or at least a proper entry in the wiki. If someone needs them as a depenency it would be good to have a corresponding page. That would also be all the wonderful apps in GAP and Etoile etc Well, those should be documented on their own webistes, perhaps just cross-referenced where appropriate (e.g. additional themes or dependencies, etc) So for me there's a break-down into GNUstep (the core, supported stuff), Future (hot projects), and Extra (things built using GNUstep) which I think ought to be really clear on the website; We want people to know what's there now and well supported We want people to know what's coming soon and where they can help most We want people to know about all the cool stuff that uses GNUstep and makes it look good We also want people to join in and help rather than complaining about problems which aren't part of core ... keeping a clear separation ought to help with that. We ought to make it explicit who is supporting what, and to what extent support/development is being done (and whether we are looking for a volunteer to support any pasrticular thing). Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: While nicely and cleanly done, the proposal reminds me somewhat ofhttp://www.gtk.org/. I am not sure if this is a good idea, in my opinion people could come to the conclusion that we're now some kind of sister project of GTK. Which is a strange Idea as everyone involved with GNUstep would confirm, but do outsiders know? Is this just me and my view at the layout or are others see it the same? no, there are resemblances due to the rounded boxes and colors, but they look sufficiently distinct to me. What I ant to provide in my design is the style of menus GTK.org has, no sub-menus. However they present much less information than we have, also since gtk is primarily "developer". They do reference their wiki. I want to use my style in their direction of organization, however by managing more the complex division user-vs-developer. This is why I am playing in GAP, where we don't have such a division and I can focus more on the design part and have less troubles with the structure. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: Am 01.01.2014 um 19:18 schrieb Riccardo Mottola: Hi David, I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, This one looks nice! A clean, modern layout without distraction. Just a little idea. Maybe the top navigation could behave like the top navigation here: http://www.taz.de/ ? Would you like this idea? Thanks. The goal is to have a clean design that doesn't get in the way. I actually want to remove submenus, more like the GTK page and use the main navbar really only for the top-level navigation. This is what seems to work best in responsive website used from phones. I will take it in consideration though, because I thought something like that instead of menus, if I fail removing sub-sections. I did not announce it myself yet, because the work in gap is partial and unfinished. I have a goal and some design guidelines, but no mockup website (and no, don't let me scan hand sketches). I spoke with a couple of web guys at work about certain standard practices and components to use. But I had little time during these festive days and concentrated the little time on coding :) Good news to be heard from that part soon I hope. Having a common style between gnustep.org and gap i still something i find desiderable. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: Hi all, I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking fairly dated, and that finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google. the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, digging html5 and css3, and came up with the following design, that you can find here: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html Note, not all pages and links are "implemented". I did not wanted to waste too much time, in case, the majority of people doesn't like with what I've come up. Older revisions, that finally lead to the design I have now, can be seen here: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index5.html https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index6.html The major design goals of the page are: * have a half way modern look, but don't overdo * easy and logical menu structuring, it should be easy to find things following a logic Further Ideas and things I had considered while designing were: Intended main audience: * MAC Developers seeking to port their apps to other platforms * Developers from other platforms, seeking to base their projects, commercial or free, on GNUstep * Packagers, that want to package GNUstep for their favourite OS/Distribution Not intended main audience, but also welcomed: * End users of any kind * direct End users to the pages to GWorkspace or SystemPreferences, Example applications, and screenshots * otherwise, direct end users to GAP and maybe other external sites Why chose the main audience above? * GNUstep is a set of libraries, providing an API to be used by developers I disagree with this definition. * libraries are accompanied by a set of development tools * GWorkspace and SystemPreferences are nice show cases for developers that want to get to know what they can get from GNUstep General design goals of the page: * Its generally intended to attract the main intended audience * have a modern look and feel, but keep the page simple * page should work with recent modern browsers * making use of modern HTML5 and CSS3 * page may look a bit odd with old browsers (this likely includes SWK ;) * but who is really using a browser that does not understand HTML5/CSS3, or at least a subset of it? Even Google doesn't support old browsers. * simple wording, short and clear sentences * simple page structure, simulating the MAC Desktop * main menu (the dock at the bottom on every page) * always all the time visible * horizontal menu on the top dependent on what's chosen from the dock at the bottom * the icon on the left shows which menu entry was chosen from the dock at the bottom Some more specific design decisions are based on: * design of the contents of the homepage: * do not overload with information or images, the page should load fast ;) * address the most interesting questions someone looking for GNUstep might have with links to the right subpages * generally inspired from www.gtk.org * Footer/Dock: * show some modern CSS tricks, hopefully giving the (right) impression of GNUstep being modern too * mostly white background * white looks "clean" * but if there are better suggestions, and a different background color can be agreed on, then it should be ;) * horizontal top menu is inspired by www.apple.com * make Mac developers feel at home * its simple, looking nice * no submenus, but having submenus there, if agreed on, can easily be added, see an "older" incarnation of the design: https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index3.html * the icon on the left is the same as the one clicked at the bottom, in order to signal where the user currently is * grey color in the horizontal menu on the top, and other elements * GNUstep apps are grey, or maybe in the future that will (hopefully) change when another theme gets included in GUI, but the color is chosen in reference to the GUI apps and history to NeXT * but if there are other suggestions for coloring the menu and other elements, and it can be agreed on, then it should be ;) * text alignment is "justified" * differentiate external links: those are marked with icon * News box on front page: * shows news on, releases, hackathons, papers, etc. * shows there is live in the community * New pages: hackathons page and papers page: * show there is live in the community * show there is fun in the community * make use of SSIs, to ease updating, at least for the top menu, and the dock at the bottom, and for example the news box on the front page * The screenshot pages should show off more Themes to underline GNUsteps flexibility in the look 'n feel Design ideas inspired by: * Footer: MAC OS X dock * horizontal top menu: www.apple.com * main page: www.gtk.org * screenshot gallery: www.gtk.org Main Menu structure (the dock at the bottom) * A
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
I just noticed that the new web page is now online. This might have happened a long time ago already as I don't reload the GNUstep page that often. Many thanks to whom ever did the change. I expect it was Riccardo as it looks very similar to the GAP page. It is a bit to minimalistic for me (I really liked Sebastian's ideas) and I am still missing a few entries, although it is hard for me to point out which ones :-) One technical question: Don't we need a form of legal disclaimer on the page, stating who is responsible for the page? In Germany you would need something like that. Fred ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi Fred, On 2014-07-05 15:02:32 +0200 Fred Kiefer wrote: I just noticed that the new web page is now online. This might have happened a long time ago already as I don't reload the GNUstep page that often. Many thanks to whom ever did the change. I expect it was Riccardo as it looks very similar to the GAP page. Yes, it was me, I even forgot to formally anounce it. it was an incredible work and done quite in a hurry. The GAp site had some technical difficutlies in completing the transition from the old theme, I did not know how to position and use certain images. First I solved the most presing issues and then completed the transition of about 50% of the GAP website. I then started a pilot test for GNUstep.org localy and toyed around, including some quite bold and "industry" level prototypes. However, first Gregory started to ramble again.. then I thought that the event in Brighton might bring us some exposure. Thus I thought that a redesigned website for GNUstep and GAP would improve our impact in case somebody gets curious! Perhaps you did not notive, but some weeks ago, by retaining the old style, I already started reorganizing certain entries and completing cetain pages about Systempreferences and such It is a bit to minimalistic for me (I really liked Sebastian's ideas) and I am still missing a few entries, although it is hard for me to point out which ones :-) Well, I was able to incoroprate one idea of Sebastian: the upper left logo instead of the standard Text title. Please note, that I just updated the style of about 75% of the pages, I did not reorganize anything. Sebastians proposal was deeper and it had quite legit ideas! However I thought to follow open-source philosphy and release early. The content can be improved later. Actually, by updating the pages I noticed a lot of hard-to-reach or even unreachable content! Or inconsistent stuff. I will grdually ask about that. A note about the new design: it is based on bootstrap, so it is up to top-notch responsive practices where I exploited them (some content is not yet truly updated, I just resyled it). The very minimalistic, with little graphic, style is intrinsic to it For example, if you have an iPhone (or perhaps you notice it already on an iPad) look at: - the menu bar reorganizes vertically and opens with the now standard menu icon - if you check gnustep.org's download page or the window page, you may notice that you can horizontally scroll with a "touch" the tables without scrolling the whole page horizontally! - in GAP's homepage, on a wide screen of a laptop or PC you see three columns, if you look it on a small device, they will organize all vertically, giving you still full accessibility there are a couple of other detials, but these I like most and I think "updating" our own home-brewed styles would be really too much effort. Some of these details are quite difficolt to get working and bootstrap itself needed fixing - fixes we get for free by using it. The custom css is now vbery small, before we had two CSS files! One technical question: Don't we need a form of legal disclaimer on the page, stating who is responsible for the page? In Germany you would need something like that. I don't know about that. I suppose that depends either on where the webserver is located or more probably where "gnustep" is localted, that is, I would suppose, GNU itself, thus american law. I also ask what the current webmaster address is.. I also suppose that the webmaster author pages should be updated. Thanks for appreciating. I'll come back with more questions and doubts to complete the work. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió: > Hi all, [..] > > * maybe trash the wiki.gnustep.org > * its unmaintainable, contains lots of outdated, > incorrect and misleading information > * incorporate important information into the main website > OR someone (or a team) needs to be willing to review > it regularly and if necessary clean it up/update outdated > info there I think the wiki is important, we just need invite people to update and write. In other way, if we put all at main website, this will be a lot of work for whichever is the maintainer. And with the time this will become outdated. I suggest, remove the news from wiki, and add a main page with some information about what is available at wiki. Like, for example, GNU Octave wiki (http://wiki.octave.org/Main_Page) or Emacs wiki (http://www.emacswiki.org/). And, since we have Software Index, we can remove all the apps at wiki. Because this is a duplicated effort. If you are agree, I can help in this way. Even with the recording of some video tutorials to show some basics examples. And put this at http://www.mediagoblin.com/ or at http://gobblin.se/ Regards. Germán. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
GAP (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió: > Hi all, [...] > * Talk to German, Adam, moving the stuff in gnustep-nonfsf > to GAP, or GNUstep, closing off the gnustep-nonfsf project > I don't have problem in move this to other place. Germán. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 06:45 CET, Germán Arias wrote: > El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió: > > Hi all, > > [..] > > > > > * maybe trash the wiki.gnustep.org > > * its unmaintainable, contains lots of outdated, > > incorrect and misleading information > > * incorporate important information into the main website > > OR someone (or a team) needs to be willing to review > > it regularly and if necessary clean it up/update outdated > > info there > > I think the wiki is important, we just need invite people to update and > write. In other way, if we put all at main website, this will be a lot > of work for whichever is the maintainer. And with the time this will > become outdated. > > I suggest, remove the news from wiki, and add a main page with some > information about what is available at wiki. Like, for example, GNU > Octave wiki (http://wiki.octave.org/Main_Page) or Emacs wiki > (http://www.emacswiki.org/). Yeah, I came up with a radical proposal, to get attention, and start a discussion, if there are better ideas, like you have, then I'm all for it. I'm all for it to move the news from the wiki to the main website. Also for the front page of the wiki, I like the idea of having kind of an index, and structure in the pages. > > And, since we have Software Index, we can remove all the apps at wiki. > Because this is a duplicated effort. Yes, all this redundant information is cumbersome to update. When I update i.e. a GAP application, I have to update the GAP site, the softwareindex, and the wiki page. If at least one could go away, that would already be a plus. Further, there are tons of apps listed in the wiki, that point to outdated web pages, etc. If there is any interested in those apps, then we should maybe find them on the web, and import them to GAP before removing those apps pages from the wiki ;) > > If you are agree, I can help in this way. Even with the recording of > some video tutorials to show some basics examples. And put this at > http://www.mediagoblin.com/ or at http://gobblin.se/ I have no idea about how to record videos to show basic examples, but with HTML5, we could just put them on the gnustep.org web site, and include a tag. No need scatter things around the web. So, in short, I agree and would appreciate your help. cheers, Sebastian > > Regards. > Germán. > ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
On 31.12.2013 06:45, Germán Arias wrote: > El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió: >> Hi all, > > [..] > >> >> * maybe trash the wiki.gnustep.org >> * its unmaintainable, contains lots of outdated, >> incorrect and misleading information >> * incorporate important information into the main website >> OR someone (or a team) needs to be willing to review >> it regularly and if necessary clean it up/update outdated >> info there > > I think the wiki is important, we just need invite people to update and > write. In other way, if we put all at main website, this will be a lot > of work for whichever is the maintainer. And with the time this will > become outdated. > > I suggest, remove the news from wiki, and add a main page with some > information about what is available at wiki. Like, for example, GNU > Octave wiki (http://wiki.octave.org/Main_Page) or Emacs wiki > (http://www.emacswiki.org/). > > And, since we have Software Index, we can remove all the apps at wiki. > Because this is a duplicated effort. > > If you are agree, I can help in this way. Even with the recording of > some video tutorials to show some basics examples. And put this at > http://www.mediagoblin.com/ or at http://gobblin.se/ I fully agree with German. The wiki and the web site follow different purposes and use cases. We need both of them but should make sure information is always presented on the most suited system. Duplicated information is bad, as it will most likely be out dated at one of the places. Let us all start to go through the wiki and clean it up more regularly. And if we see information that remains static and is important enough, move it over to to www.gnustep.org. Fred ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
Am 31.12.2013 06:45, schrieb Germán Arias: > I think the wiki is important, we just need invite people to update > and write. In other way, if we put all at main website, this will be > a lot of work for whichever is the maintainer. And with the time this > will become outdated. Yes, wikis or wiki-like content managers are important. For many projects it's the only way of documentation and, honestly, who searches .info files these days when there's Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo which put you on spot in seconds? > I suggest, remove the news from wiki, and add a main page with some > information about what is available at wiki. Like, for example, GNU > Octave wiki (http://wiki.octave.org/Main_Page) or Emacs wiki > (http://www.emacswiki.org/). I'd suggest the opposite, put the main page into the wiki. This way you have only one web software to maintain and wikis are excellent for displaying news. Just yesterday I stumbled across the Qemu page which has a very nice layout, but is actually a wiki: http://wiki.qemu.org/Main_Page Joining this with Sebastians new design could look awesome. > And, since we have Software Index, we can remove all the apps at > wiki. Because this is a duplicated effort. Remove the software index? Not the indexing part, of course, such stuff can be easily integrated into wiki pages (using "Widgets"). I see the lack of wiki usage. I see outdated infos there, but can't fix it for the lack of privileges. At RepRep, a similarly sized community, we have write access for everybody who creates an account (without moderation) and 14 users with admin privileges. Works very well, including (a custom hacked) spam protection. Single-maintainer web site administration should be a thing of the past, many successful projects (Wikipedia, Ubuntu come to mind) show how it works better. Markus -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.reprap-diy.com/ http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
Hi, lots of stuff, I can't reply to this all now. However. The wiki si important. Germán Arias wrote: And, since we have Software Index, we can remove all the apps at wiki. Because this is a duplicated effort. Sorry, no. Most apps have their only place in the wiki (e.g. no proper homepage). The wiki allows for much better documentation and integration. I know it is a duplication, but if, it is needed to be solved differently. The Original goal of Software index would be to something like an app-store, but since you have to install apps usually through a distribution system, it ends up being more a showcase. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:40 AM, Markus Hitter wrote: > I see the lack of wiki usage. I see outdated infos there, but can't fix > it for the lack of privileges. > It's easy to get privileges. Just send your account name to gnustep-webmasters at gnu.org and we'll give you write access. We do that just to avoid SPAM. signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Wiki (was Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal)
Hi, Fred Kiefer wrote: with German. The wiki and the web site follow different purposes and use cases. We need both of them but should make sure information is always presented on the most suited system. Duplicated information is bad, as it will most likely be out dated at one of the places. Let us all start to go through the wiki and clean it up more regularly. And if we see information that remains static and is important enough, move it over to towww.gnustep.org. I agree with that. The purpose of the wiki is, that even if it needs registration, to have a large and free contributor base. News of other and related projects are welcome too. Most important news then should tricke to gnustep.org which is anyway more static. The only other way would be an includable php component which automatically pulls in information, but a static section is perhaps cleaner. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, thank's everyone for the input so far. A bit later than anticipated, but here is the promised summary of the tread so far: As the discussion turned out, there are things that need clarification before it makes sense to setup a new web presentation. Which also gives me, and Riccardo time to improve our web skills in the meantime ;) As far as I can see now, decisions need to be made on the following: * A statement is needed, and needs to be agreed on, what "proper" GNUstep actually is. Richard made some good suggestions: * Core GNUstep (make/base/gui/back) * Development tools (Gorm) * Other things that should be added as soon as they are matured: * THEMES, at least one for Linux/Unix-like, and one for Windows bundled with the core system * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support * MACUSER: a simple mac user porting mechanism is needed, either provide a VM, or some xcode integration, whatever would be better suited * MOBILE: implementing new/improverd graphics stuff and porting to android etc. * Breaking up GNUstep into three things: * GS Core (the core, supported stuff) * Hot future projects (worked on to become core, supported stuff) * i.e. Thematic * opal backend, core animation, etc. * GS Extras: additional libs and tools built on top of GNUstep, currently available in SVN or that only have (lousy) wiki pages ;) * this would include: Steptalk, GDL2, GSWeb, ProjectCenter, EasyDiff, webserver, webservices, simplewebkit, sqlclient, gsldap, corebase, GWorkspace, etc. * Maybe it would make sense to move some of them to GAP, at least the applicationsi.e. GWorkspace, PC, EasyDiff? Citing Doug Simons description of GNUstep, that I really think fits well: GNUstep is an open-source framework modeled on Apple's Cocoa frameworks to provide a cross-platform API to make it easy to create sophisticated modern software. Ports of OS X software to other platforms and new software development in Objective-C are both supported, with or without a graphical user interface. Which means, basically remove all mentioning of NeXT/OPENSTEP from the main page. Likely, most of the current Cocoa developers nowadays don't have an idea of what that is anyways. I suggest a history page should clarify about those roots, and how GNU and GNUstep fits in. * Make GAP a more central hub for GNUstep applications: * i.e. merge the gnustep-nonfsf project into GAP * and maybe the gsimageapps project too * point interested end users that come along on gnustep.org to GAP * GAP likely should also switch from CVS to SVN as RCS Based on above, just citing Richard here again: We want people to know what's there now and well supported We want people to know what's coming soon and where they can help most We want people to know about all the cool stuff that uses GNUstep and makes it look good We also want people to join in and help rather than complaining about problems which aren't part of core ... keeping a clear separation ought to help with that. We ought to make it explicit who is supporting what, and to what extent support/development is being done (and whether we are looking for a volunteer to support any particular thing). When it's more clear, what GNUstep really is, and what's supported, what's worked on, what's extra etc., then designing, structuring the contents of the webpage is likely to become much more easier. * As many have pointed out, the website and the wiki are there to meet different purposes/requirements. However, the wiki contains a lot of old and outdated information, and really needs a cleanup. But maybe before a cleanup is attempted, a decision must be made about what type of contents goes into the wiki, and what goes to the website. * A decision about the softwareindex. Does the softwareindex makes sense, or is it just more work and containing redundant information than it makes sense? I.e. currently, when you release a software, you have to update links/version numbers on the softwares homepage, wiki, softwareindex. Or maybe keep the softwareindex, and maybe remove redundant information about applications that have a nice homepage from the wiki? The look and feel of the softwareindex can likely be enhanced with CSS to make it fit the design of the rest of the website. Feedback the design proposal of the GNUstep website I had: * modelling similar to gtk.org makes sense for at least a few people, the similar type of software is offered, and a similar type of audience is intended * have news on the GNUstep.org web site front page to show off activities within the project. * The dock at the bottom I had on my design, seems to be nice, but seems to be too difficult to recognize as a navigation item. Proposals were to move it to the top, or on the side. I basically dropped it from my current incarnation of design, as
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over five years. Possibly because they were mocked for describing the version of Objective-C that came after Objective-C 4 as Objective-C 2... The main point that we want to be making today is that we support ARC. We might want some bullet-point features, such as: - ARC - Blocks - Properties - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out semantics added to appease Python programmers Or, more simply, all of the language features that are supported on OS X with the latest Apple tools. David -- Sent from my Difference Engine ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 09:37 CET, David Chisnall wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach > wrote: > > > * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support > > A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over five > years. Possibly because they were mocked for describing the version of > Objective-C that came after Objective-C 4 as Objective-C 2... > > The main point that we want to be making today is that we support ARC. We > might want some bullet-point features, such as: > > - ARC > - Blocks > - Properties > - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out semantics > added to appease Python programmers But what would then be a "better" name for it? Just "modern objc runtime"? Or something that would describe it in one word, suitable as a menu entry? cheers, Sebastian > > Or, more simply, all of the language features that are supported on OS X with > the latest Apple tools. > > David > > -- Sent from my Difference Engine > > > ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:37, David Chisnall wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach > wrote: > >> * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support > > A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over five > years. Possibly because they were mocked for describing the version of > Objective-C that came after Objective-C 4 as Objective-C 2... > > The main point that we want to be making today is that we support ARC. We > might want some bullet-point features, such as: > > - ARC > - Blocks > - Properties > - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out semantics > added to appease Python programmers > > Or, more simply, all of the language features that are supported on OS X with > the latest Apple tools. Good point ... I hadn't really considered the branding of the language/runtime. I agree that ARC is the killer feature. The others are, IMO relatively minor refinements not suitable to be the headline feature, or braindead/bloat in some way (even though they have possible good applications). However, I'm not sure that we can use the term ARC as a big selling point, simply because I'm not sure people will understand how good a feature it is. How can we brand the latest objc language/runtime so that it both sounds impressive without being either too technical (arc) or too vague (modern)? On the other hand, maybe calling it ObjectiveC-ARC is OK if OSX developers all understand it? ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 09:23, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: > Good point ... I hadn't really considered the branding of the > language/runtime. > > I agree that ARC is the killer feature. The others are, IMO relatively minor > refinements not suitable to be the headline feature, or braindead/bloat in > some way (even though they have possible good applications). > > However, I'm not sure that we can use the term ARC as a big selling point, > simply because I'm not sure people will understand how good a feature it is. I think OS X / iOS developers will, given how much effort Apple has spent on selling it. And people who remember life before ARC will know how painful it is to go back to the pre-ARC world[1]. > How can we brand the latest objc language/runtime so that it both sounds > impressive without being either too technical (arc) or too vague (modern)? > > On the other hand, maybe calling it ObjectiveC-ARC is OK if OSX developers > all understand it? I would say 'All of the latest Objective-C features, including ARC'. People who know about ObjC will most likely be explicitly looking for ARC on the feature list, people who don't will just see the general point. And it's brief enough to fit in a bullet point. David [1] On which note, I wonder if GNUstep is losing potential contributors by requiring code in the core libraries to use manual RR... -- This email complies with ISO 3103 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
"Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"? I'd however go with Objective-C 2.0. Apple may have stopped using the name, but it is still a good historical descriptor without a suitable replacement. It is also a good name to point out a difference from a much simpler language (and runtime) that existed prior to that point. If it comes up in conversations (and it does, because it's much easier to write and pronounce), then we can and should use it. No need to follow Apple's lead here. Besides, Apple's replacement in the context of the runtime is '64-bit runtime'. Not as applicable to us, I'm sure you'll agree, as we can easily build the libobjc2 runtime with varying 'amounts of bits'. On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 9:23:31 AM, Richard Frith-Macdonald < richardfrithmacdon...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:37, David Chisnall wrote: > > > On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach < > sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > > > >> * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support > > > > A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over > five years. Possibly because they were mocked for describing the version > of Objective-C that came after Objective-C 4 as Objective-C 2... > > > > The main point that we want to be making today is that we support ARC. > We might want some bullet-point features, such as: > > > > - ARC > > - Blocks > > - Properties > > - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out > semantics added to appease Python programmers > > > > Or, more simply, all of the language features that are supported on OS X > with the latest Apple tools. > > Good point ... I hadn't really considered the branding of the > language/runtime. > > I agree that ARC is the killer feature. The others are, IMO relatively > minor refinements not suitable to be the headline feature, or > braindead/bloat in some way (even though they have possible good > applications). > > However, I'm not sure that we can use the term ARC as a big selling point, > simply because I'm not sure people will understand how good a feature it is. > How can we brand the latest objc language/runtime so that it both sounds > impressive without being either too technical (arc) or too vague (modern)? > > On the other hand, maybe calling it ObjectiveC-ARC is OK if OSX developers > all understand it? > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:26, Ivan Vučica wrote: > "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"? I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!' > I'd however go with Objective-C 2.0. Apple may have stopped using the name, > but it is still a good historical descriptor without a suitable replacement. > It is also a good name to point out a difference from a much simpler language > (and runtime) that existed prior to that point. I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced in 2005! Yay!' Neither of these are the impression that we want to give. David -- Sent from my PDP-11 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:37, David Chisnall wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:26, Ivan Vučica wrote: > >> "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"? > > I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!' > >> I'd however go with Objective-C 2.0. Apple may have stopped using the name, >> but it is still a good historical descriptor without a suitable replacement. >> It is also a good name to point out a difference from a much simpler >> language (and runtime) that existed prior to that point. > > I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced in 2005! > Yay!' You may be unusual in that. > Neither of these are the impression that we want to give. How about 'Objective-C: The Next Generation' :-) ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 07.01.2014 09:37, schrieb David Chisnall: > - ARC > - Blocks > - Properties Good points. Please write the full wording, not everybody knows what "ARC" stands for. And how "Properties" is different from what C++ gave us in 1990. > - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out semantics > added to appease Python programmers Uhm, yes. Good wording for alienating Python hackers. :-) Markus -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.reprap-diy.com/ http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 12:02 CET, Markus Hitter wrote: > Am 07.01.2014 09:37, schrieb David Chisnall: > > - ARC > > - Blocks > > - Properties > > Good points. Please write the full wording, not everybody knows what > "ARC" stands for. And how "Properties" is different from what C++ gave > us in 1990. With the Objc getting an own page, there likely plenty of room for detailed explanations ;) Sebastian > > > - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out semantics > > added to appease Python programmers > > Uhm, yes. Good wording for alienating Python hackers. :-) > > > Markus > > -- > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter > http://www.reprap-diy.com/ > http://www.jump-ing.de/ > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:49, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: >> I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced in 2005! >> Yay!' > > You may be unusual in that. Possibly, but the 2006 WWDC was the first and last time Apple referred to a set of new Objective-C features as Objective-C 2. The term Objective-C 2 does not appear in current Apple docs, nor is it a language dialect that you can select in the compiler. If we make a big deal about supporting Objective-C 2, then there's an immediate question of why we're not saying anything about supporting newer features. Simply saying that we support all of the modern Objective-C language features, including ARC, tells people that we support the thing that they're most likely to care about, and we also support the other new stuff, irrespective of how you choose to brand it. David -- Sent from my Cray X1 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Fwd: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
(Sorry, forgot to CC the list) Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht: > Von: Niels Grewe > Betreff: Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal > Datum: 7. Januar 2014 13:00:12 MEZ > An: David Chisnall > > > Am 07.01.2014 um 12:06 schrieb David Chisnall : > >> On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:49, Richard Frith-Macdonald >> wrote: >> >>>> I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced in >>>> 2005! Yay!' >>> >>> You may be unusual in that. >> >> Possibly, but the 2006 WWDC was the first and last time Apple referred to a >> set of new Objective-C features as Objective-C 2. The term Objective-C 2 >> does not appear in current Apple docs, > > > That’s not quite true: Some of the documents still talk about something > called "Objective-C 2.0“, most notably the runtime programming guide: > > https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjCRuntimeGuide/Articles/ocrtVersionsPlatforms.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40008048-CH106-SW1 > > > But that doesn’t make the term any more intelligible. I think we should > prefer to use a concise description of the feature set over any marketing > mumbo jumbo. > > Cheers, > > Niels ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 12:16, Niels Grewe wrote: > (Sorry, forgot to CC the list) > > Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht: > >> Von: Niels Grewe >> Betreff: Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal >> Datum: 7. Januar 2014 13:00:12 MEZ >> An: David Chisnall >> >> >> Am 07.01.2014 um 12:06 schrieb David Chisnall : >> >>> On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:49, Richard Frith-Macdonald >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced in >>>>> 2005! Yay!' >>>> >>>> You may be unusual in that. >>> >>> Possibly, but the 2006 WWDC was the first and last time Apple referred to a >>> set of new Objective-C features as Objective-C 2. The term Objective-C 2 >>> does not appear in current Apple docs, >> >> >> That’s not quite true: Some of the documents still talk about something >> called "Objective-C 2.0“, most notably the runtime programming guide: >> >> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjCRuntimeGuide/Articles/ocrtVersionsPlatforms.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40008048-CH106-SW1 >> >> >> But that doesn’t make the term any more intelligible. I think we should >> prefer to use a concise description of the feature set over any marketing >> mumbo jumbo. I sympathise/agree with that ... but we have, on the website , a consice description of what gnustep is, and yet just had Doc O'Leary complaning because we didn't have a marketing mission statement. Probably we need both ... a good description and a marketing phrase to refer to it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 13:23 CET, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: > > On 7 Jan 2014, at 12:16, Niels Grewe wrote: > > > (Sorry, forgot to CC the list) > > > Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht: > > >> Von: Niels Grewe > >> Betreff: Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign > >> proposal > >> Datum: 7. Januar 2014 13:00:12 MEZ > >> An: David Chisnall > >> >> >> Am 07.01.2014 um 12:06 schrieb David Chisnall : > >> >>> On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:49, Richard Frith-Macdonald > >> >>> wrote: > >>> >>>>> I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced > >>> >>>>> in 2005! Yay!' > >>>> >>>> You may be unusual in that. > >>> >>> Possibly, but the 2006 WWDC was the first and last time Apple > >>> >>> referred to a set of new Objective-C features as Objective-C 2. The > >>> >>> term Objective-C 2 does not appear in current Apple docs, > >> >> > >> That’s not quite true: Some of the documents still talk about something > >> called "Objective-C 2.0“, most notably the runtime programming guide: > >> >> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjCRuntimeGuide/Articles/ocrtVersionsPlatforms.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40008048-CH106-SW1 > >> > >> >> But that doesn’t make the term any more intelligible. I think we should > >> >> prefer to use a concise description of the feature set over any > >> >> marketing mumbo jumbo. > I sympathise/agree with that ... but we have, on the website , a consice > description of what gnustep is, and yet just had Doc O'Leary complaning > because we didn't have a marketing mission statement. > > Probably we need both ... a good description and a marketing phrase to refer > to it. How about just calling it as simple as: "GNUstep Runtime" That GNUstep runs on Objective-C, should be clear from the general description about what GNUstep is anyways. Then a page dedicated to the runtime, could go into the gory details of all the nice features it provides. cheers, Sebastian > > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
> On Jan 7, 2014, at 1:23, Richard Frith-Macdonald > wrote: > > However, I'm not sure that we can use the term ARC as a big selling point, > simply because I'm not sure people will understand how good a feature it is. True -- but when I have described ARC to non-ObjC developers/colleagues, most are amazed by the idea and have trouble believing that it's actually even possible. The fact that you can have such a feature so well integrated in a C-based language (and that GNUStep brings this to other operating systems) is a very attractive. Patryk ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach < sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote: > How about just calling it as simple as: "GNUstep Runtime" > That GNUstep runs on Objective-C, should be clear from the general > description > about what GNUstep is anyways. > I would just like to add that it is very likely that there is still some confusion around the "GNU runtime" and the "GNUstep runtime". I'd imagine this is a problem for people new to the GNUstep eco-system. Most, if not all, GNU/Linux distros still include GCC as the standard compiler, and do not support the new features. The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the distro supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it using the standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep. Then a page dedicated to the runtime, could go into the gory details of all > the nice features it provides. > Are we now saying libobjc2 is the "preferred" runtime? If so, it implies that clang is the preferred compiler. I have no arguments for or against it, I just want to clarify. cheers, > Sebastian PS: It would be nice if we could get the GNU runtime deprecated within GCC. I think I remember David tried integrating the GNUstep runtime with GCC and got frustrated, but GCC is still the "GNU compiler" and the standard compiler on GNU/Linux, having 2 slightly incompatible runtimes is confusing, even for me who has followed the project for over 10 years. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 10:37:43 AM, David Chisnall wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:26, Ivan Vučica wrote: > > > "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"? > > I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!' > Last time I checked "post-2007" does include features introduced in 2011, 2012, 2013... :-) ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 14:19, Ivan Vučica wrote: >> > "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"? >> >> I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!' > > Last time I checked "post-2007" does include features introduced in 2011, > 2012, 2013... :-) It does, but that's not how marketing works. If something is greater than x, you say it's greater than x, for the largest possible x. If you say 'Under $10' then people assume you mean $9.99. If you say 'post-2007', people assume you mean 2008. David -- Sent from my Apple II ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
I get your viewpoint, but I disagree and have more faith in humanity than that :-) Post-2007 is post-2007. It's not "in 2007". It's not "in one year after 2007". Does the concept of post-PC include wearable computing? By the aforementioned standards, it would seem to me personally that no -- it would have to be strictly relating to the devices being introduced along with the term 'post-PC'. Does a requirement 'Windows XP or later' mean the program will run on Vista, 7 and 8.x? How about '512mb RAM or more'? Apart from extreme cases (Windows 3.1-or-later programs running on 64-bit Windows 8), I think we can agree that more is better. But let's say that people will truly think 'oh, it's just things added in 2008'. How about "numerous features introduced to language and language runtime after 2007, supporting even additions in 2013"? Not really pleasant. I still think Objective-C 2.0 is more concise than the above contraption. If anything, even "features from Objective-C 2.0 and later" sounds way better than the above. I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as @synthesize. And five years from now, any arguments against naming it relative to Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming it Objective-C+ARC or similar. On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 4:02:48 PM, David Chisnall wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 14:19, Ivan Vučica wrote: > > >> > "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"? > >> > >> I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!' > > > > Last time I checked "post-2007" does include features introduced in > 2011, 2012, 2013... :-) > > It does, but that's not how marketing works. If something is greater than > x, you say it's greater than x, for the largest possible x. If you say > 'Under $10' then people assume you mean $9.99. If you say 'post-2007', > people assume you mean 2008. > > David > > -- Sent from my Apple II > > ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 16:13, Ivan Vučica wrote: > I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for one, > don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as > @synthesize. I completely disagree. @synthsize is a small improvement. It lets you generate methods, but you can already do most of what it does with a macro. It's nice, but it's not that special. ARC, in contrast, is a big change to the language. It fundamentally changes how you think about writing code, letting you think about object ownership rather than reference counts. I'd put the non-fragile ABI in the same category as synthesised properties - it makes code cleaner and easier to maintain, but doesn't really change how you use it. Blocks are in the same category as ARC: they're a big change to the language and change how you write code. If we were to highlight two features that we support, blocks and ARC would be top of the list. > And five years from now, any arguments against naming it relative to > Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming it Objective-C+ARC or similar. If our web site is still saying the same thing in five years, then we have other problems. David -- Sent from my brain ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 07.01.2014 15:13, schrieb Stefan Bidi: > The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the distro > supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it using the > standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep. I'm working on this to make this "first step" obsolete. Because I think time is invested much better in building new packages than in debating on how to work around the old ones. First results are here: https://launchpad.net/~mah-jump-ing/+archive/ppa Not flawlessly, yet, because the old packaging interferes a lot with recent sources, but I'm continueing. With some luck, a recent gnustep-make is available tomorrow, which should act the same way as if you had compiled/installed it by hand. Currently it uses gcc/libobjc, switching to clang/libobjc2 should be straightforward. Markus -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.reprap-diy.com/ http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 7 Jan 2014, at 14:13, Stefan Bidi wrote: > The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the distro > supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it using the > standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep. Both OpenBSD and FreeBSD ship with GNUstep packages that are up to date and compiled with sensible options. I've not tried the OpenBSD ones, but on FreeBSD things like ARC and libdispatch work out of the box. We should perhaps have a prominent list of systems with up-to-date packages so that people know what is sensible to install in a VM if they want to play with GNUstep. David -- Sent from my Cray X1 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 4:31:57 PM, David Chisnall wrote: > On 7 Jan 2014, at 16:13, Ivan Vučica wrote: > > > I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for > one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as > @synthesize. > > I completely disagree. @synthsize is a small improvement. It lets you > generate methods, but you can already do most of what it does with a macro. > It's nice, but it's not that special. ARC, in contrast, is a big change > to the language. It fundamentally changes how you think about writing > code, letting you think about object ownership rather than reference > counts. I'd put the non-fragile ABI in the same category as synthesised > properties - it makes code cleaner and easier to maintain, but doesn't > really change how you use it. Blocks are in the same category as ARC: > they're a big change to the language and change how you write code. If we > were to highlight two features that we support, blocks and ARC would be top > of the list. > You can do it with macros, but a lot of people handwrote the getters and setters. ARC does change the way you write code. It tries to turn Objective-C into a "magic" language to satisfy people used to garbage collection, or people who trust the compiler to do the right thing. As we discussed at devmeeting 2013, my personal reasons for not trusting ARC are admittedly irrational: I was bit by GC many years ago, and one of the reasons why I approached Objective-C was that refcounting was consistently present, consistently ubiquitous and publicly exposed. ARC hides it. I don't like hidden reference counting. > > And five years from now, any arguments against naming it relative to > Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming it Objective-C+ARC or similar. > > If our web site is still saying the same thing in five years, then we have > other problems. > Let's compose something that makes it irrelevant if we change the website or not. Let's compose something that doesn't depend on one specific feature. First big changes in the language came with what was called Objective-C 2.0. There is no need to invent our own point in time where the changes started to happen and where it is important to point out that we support post-1990s things. At this point I think I gave enough input and will drop the subject. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi All I mostly agree with David about what features to highlight. ARC and blocks are definitely the two big features that have affected the way I program on iOS. However, for someone writing apps for iOS / OS X and using features like automatic @synthesize (no need to write @synthesize) and the, according to David, brain dead array / dictionary literals :) it would be nice to know that you can transfer your code to GNUstep without having to rewrite all your NSArray initializers or add @synthesize everywhere... (maybe most people would take this for granted...) -- Johannes Lundberg BRILLIANTSERVICE CO., LTD. On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Ivan Vučica wrote: > On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 4:31:57 PM, David Chisnall > wrote: > >> On 7 Jan 2014, at 16:13, Ivan Vučica wrote: >> >> > I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, >> for one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language >> as @synthesize. >> >> I completely disagree. @synthsize is a small improvement. It lets you >> generate methods, but you can already do most of what it does with a macro. >> It's nice, but it's not that special. ARC, in contrast, is a big change >> to the language. It fundamentally changes how you think about writing >> code, letting you think about object ownership rather than reference >> counts. I'd put the non-fragile ABI in the same category as synthesised >> properties - it makes code cleaner and easier to maintain, but doesn't >> really change how you use it. Blocks are in the same category as ARC: >> they're a big change to the language and change how you write code. If we >> were to highlight two features that we support, blocks and ARC would be top >> of the list. >> > > You can do it with macros, but a lot of people handwrote the getters and > setters. > > ARC does change the way you write code. It tries to turn Objective-C into > a "magic" language to satisfy people used to garbage collection, or people > who trust the compiler to do the right thing. > > As we discussed at devmeeting 2013, my personal reasons for not trusting > ARC are admittedly irrational: I was bit by GC many years ago, and one of > the reasons why I approached Objective-C was that refcounting was > consistently present, consistently ubiquitous and publicly exposed. > > ARC hides it. > > I don't like hidden reference counting. > > >> > And five years from now, any arguments against naming it relative to >> Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming it Objective-C+ARC or similar. >> >> If our web site is still saying the same thing in five years, then we >> have other problems. >> > > Let's compose something that makes it irrelevant if we change the website > or not. Let's compose something that doesn't depend on one specific feature. > > First big changes in the language came with what was called Objective-C > 2.0. There is no need to invent our own point in time where the changes > started to happen and where it is important to point out that we support > post-1990s things. > > At this point I think I gave enough input and will drop the subject. > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 秘密保持について：この電子メールは、名宛人に送信したものであり、秘匿特権の対象となる情報を含んでいます。 もし、名宛人以外の方が受信された場合、このメールの破棄、およびこのメールに関する一切の開示、 複写、配布、その他の利用、または記載内容に基づくいかなる行動もされないようお願い申し上げます。 --- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and intended solely for the addressee. Disclosure, copying, distribution or any other action of use of this email by person other than intended recipient, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this email in error, please destroy the original message. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 8 Jan 2014, at 00:28, Lundberg, Johannes wrote: > However, for someone writing apps for iOS / OS X and using features like > automatic @synthesize (no need to write @synthesize) and the, according to > David, brain dead array / dictionary literals :) it would be nice to know > that you can transfer your code to GNUstep without having to rewrite all your > NSArray initializers or add @synthesize everywhere... (maybe most people > would take this for granted...) That's my thinking. If we say we support modern features including ARC and blocks, then it's pretty much implicit that we support everything else that's simpler. David -- Sent from my IBM 1620 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, Stefan Bidi wrote: Are we now saying libobjc2 is the "preferred" runtime? If so, it implies that clang is the preferred compiler. I have no arguments for or against it, I just want to clarify. I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is a dependency. You can use GCC with its GNU runtime, if you use Clang you must install libobjc2, but you can (or at least, could, I did that a couple of months ago) to use GCC+libobjc2. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:14 CET, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Hi, > > Stefan Bidi wrote: > > > > Are we now saying libobjc2 is the "preferred" runtime? If so, it > > implies that clang is the preferred compiler. I have no arguments for > > or against it, I just want to clarify. > I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is > a dependency. You can use GCC with its GNU runtime, if you use Clang you > must install libobjc2, but you can (or at least, could, I did that a I don't think this is true. You can use clang with the gcc runtime. IIRC, I did that on OpenBSD for some testing. Sebastian > couple of months ago) to use GCC+libobjc2. > > Riccardo > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, Stefan Bidi wrote: The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the distro supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it using the standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep. This is partly true. The problem is that Debianpackages suck and in consequence Ubuntu. I don't know how RH/Fedora and OpeNSuste are. Sadly, this is a big market percentage. However e.g. OpenBSD and FreeBSD are quite up-to-date. NetBSD seems acceptable too. Gentoo is also quite reasonable, offering even the choice of all 3 backends! The Application scenario is also quite up-to-date Kudos, Bernard! Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Hi, > I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is a > dependency. You can use GCC with its GNU runtime, if you use Clang you must > install libobjc2, but you can (or at least, could, I did that a couple of > months ago) to use GCC+libobjc2. > The point I was trying to make is that some of the features GNUstep implements are highly dependent on the runtime. Have 2 competing runtimes with slightly incompatible implements of the Objective-C language might be confusing. If both implementations are going to be supported, we need to be very explicit as to which features we support with one and the other. Stating "GNUstep supports all modern Objective-C features, including ARC and blocks" is only half true because we only support those features if the correct runtime and compiler are in use. Not to mention, some of these features are only supported by specific versions of the compilers. The current Debian stable, for example, includes clang 3.0 only, and if I remember correctly, this version doesn't support certain runtime features. A few years back I also temporarily switch to Slackware and it still doesn't officially support clang/llvm. I know a significant number of GNUstep developers use and actively support the BSDs (I develop corebase on a Debian Testing machine, and boot into FreeBSD to test), however, you still need to admit that GNU/Linux is the most used FOSS OS on desktops. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 14:47 CET, Stefan Bidi wrote: > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Riccardo Mottola > wrote: > > > Hi, > > I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is a > > dependency. You can use GCC with its GNU runtime, if you use Clang you must > > install libobjc2, but you can (or at least, could, I did that a couple of > > months ago) to use GCC+libobjc2. > > > > The point I was trying to make is that some of the features GNUstep > implements are highly dependent on the runtime. Have 2 competing runtimes > with slightly incompatible implements of the Objective-C language might be > confusing. If both implementations are going to be supported, we need to > be very explicit as to which features we support with one and the other. > Stating "GNUstep supports all modern Objective-C features, including ARC > and blocks" is only half true because we only support those features if the > correct runtime and compiler are in use. Not to mention, some of these > features are only supported by specific versions of the compilers. The > current Debian stable, for example, includes clang 3.0 only, and if I > remember correctly, this version doesn't support certain runtime features. > A few years back I also temporarily switch to Slackware and it still > doesn't officially support clang/llvm. With regard to the runtime, we should recommend to use clang/libobjc2, for people that want to use those shiny new features. For people that for whatever reason cannot or want not use clang/libobjc2, or have too old versions, it should be stated that GNUstep still can run/work, but it will not support all the features. I don't know, some unambigous matrix showing what features are available with a given compiler/runtime combination. Sebastian > > I know a significant number of GNUstep developers use and actively support > the BSDs (I develop corebase on a Debian Testing machine, and boot into > FreeBSD to test), however, you still need to admit that GNU/Linux is the > most used FOSS OS on desktops. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
"Sebastian Reitenbach" wrote: > I don't know, some unambigous matrix showing what features are available with > a given compiler/runtime combination. Yes please. Perhaps like https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/releasenotes/ObjectiveC/ObjCAvailabilityIndex/index.html Ross. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Hi, Ivan Vučica wrote: I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as @synthesize. And five years from now, any arguments against naming it relative to Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming it Objective-C+ARC or similar. well, I think it is poinlessin arguing in what is more important and what not. To me, they are all crap. The new language additions are dirty, have a terrible syntax and are appeal to lazy programmers. ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I personally prefer ref-counting. The point for me is making a clear statement about which runtime you can use and which features you get, so that somebody porting Apple code knows how much is supported, which features he can use with which compiler mix, to estimate, for example, the porting effort. This can't be written in stone. You don't know what Apple will invent to appeal its lazy iOS developers in the future, if and what Objective-C 2.1 or 3.0 will be. Workstations aren't relevant anyway today... Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Riccardo, They may be crap to you, but they are in common usage and this deserve our support. The attitude you display towards them is at once non-productive and not conducive to attracting developers. They are your opinions, not facts. You forget when you say things such as the forgoing that the entire point of a programming languages is to build programs as effectively and efficiently as possible. Calling developers lazy because the want to use ARC or other features of objc 2.0 is like calling C programmers lazy because they don't want to use assembler. O_o To the point Ivan was discussing objc 2.0 is the most recognized name which we can use, but it's important to remember to say "the objective c 2.0 language" since "objective-c" itself is trademarked. :/ Thanks, GC On Saturday, January 11, 2014, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Hi, > > Ivan Vučica wrote: > >> I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for >> one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as >> @synthesize. And five years from now, any arguments against naming it >> relative to Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming it Objective-C+ARC >> or >> similar. >> > well, I think it is poinlessin arguing in what is more important and what > not. > To me, they are all crap. The new language additions are dirty, have a > terrible syntax and are appeal to lazy programmers. > ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. > I personally prefer ref-counting. > > The point for me is making a clear statement about which runtime you can > use and which features you get, so that somebody porting Apple code knows > how much is supported, which features he can use with which compiler mix, > to estimate, for example, the porting effort. > > This can't be written in stone. You don't know what Apple will invent to > appeal its lazy iOS developers in the future, if and what Objective-C 2.1 > or 3.0 will be. Workstations aren't relevant anyway today... > > > Riccardo > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
> Am 12.01.2014 um 00:06 schrieb "Riccardo Mottola" : > > ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I > personally prefer ref-counting. This seems to be a common misconception: ARC *is* reference counting; it has very little to do with garbage collection. I also think the new ownership model fits the overall language design pretty well: Just as you distinguish between method calls (object world) and function calls (C world) in traditional Objective-C, ARC-support enables you to explicitly distinguish between object references and references to untyped blobs of memory, which (coincidentally) allows the compiler to do most of the reference counting for you. Cheers, Niels ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Niels Grewe wrote: >> Am 12.01.2014 um 00:06 schrieb "Riccardo Mottola" : >> >> ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I >> personally prefer ref-counting. > > This seems to be a common misconception: ARC *is* reference counting; it has > very little to do with garbage collection. Sorry for nitpicking, Niels. ARC is indeed reference counting, but reference counting *is* one way of performing garbage collection :-) Wolfgang ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
Am 13.01.2014 um 11:29 schrieb Wolfgang Lux : > Niels Grewe wrote: > >>> Am 12.01.2014 um 00:06 schrieb "Riccardo Mottola" : >>> >>> ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I >>> personally prefer ref-counting. >> >> This seems to be a common misconception: ARC *is* reference counting; it has >> very little to do with garbage collection. > > Sorry for nitpicking, Niels. Don’t be :-) > ARC is indeed reference counting, but reference counting *is* one way of > performing garbage collection :-) Very true, though reference counting alone has certain deficiencies as a garbage collection mechanism... So let’s say my point is that ARC doesn’t turn Objective-C into a language where you don’t have to care about memory management (which, I assume, is what people commonly understand when they hear the phrase ‘a garbage-collected language’).There’s no tracing, there’s no attempt made at detecting cyclic references, so you still have to think carefully about memory management. Cheers, Niels ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
On 13 Jan 2014, at 04:04, Niels Grewe wrote: > There’s no tracing, there’s no attempt made at detecting cyclic references, > so you still have to think carefully about memory management. I think it's slightly more subtle than that. With ARC, you have to care about object ownership, not about memory management. You get memory management for free, but only if you get object ownership right. This isn't too different from tracing schemes, where you still have to think about ensuring that references to an object don't outlast their last use if you want to not have to think about memory management. David ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
