Re: [h-cost] historical films/ plays tv drama
At 06:46 30/04/2006, you wrote: Bjarne, you've been given many good suggestions. The first 17th Century program I ever saw was one of the earliest Masterpiece Theater (BBC) productions. It was The First Churchills. This was before I had interest in costuming, so I don't know if the costumes are any good, but I thought it was quite lush at the time. LynnD You've reminded me. I don't know if any of these are available on DVD but here goes. History of the English Speaking People (based on Churchill's book, and some costumes made by Jean Hunnisett - good shapes, odd fabrics.) Wars of the Roses - based on Shakespeare's plays, recording of the Royal Shakespeare Company's stage production - fabulous shapes, wrong fabrics (cottons with glue and glitter patterns - very effective on stage) The Age of Kings Kings from 1066 in England - don't remember costumes! Also you could try the BBC shop http://www.bbcshop.com/icat/homenewreleases Try clicking on Drama and Arts Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
- Original Message - Have you seen it in person? I seriously doubt that seeing it in person would change my opinion about it. It would give me a better view of LdV's technical skill with a paint brush, but not much--there are some very detailed photos out there, and I don't have to deal with a crowd and reflections on glass in order to view them. And it's not a question of the details, the brush strokes, the exact (current) shades of paint that makes me feel the painting is overrated; it's the sort of thing that I can see even in a relatively low-resolution image of it. It's a matter of composition, depth, lighting, and the way the shadows are dealt with. But then, I don't really care much for Italianate artwork of that period. I don't like the diffuse lighting, I don't like the shading, I don't like the arty blurring, I don't like the style of landscape painting, I don't like a whole long laundry list of things about it. Personal taste, and it most certainly affects my impressions of the Mona Lisa, but there you go. I'm certainly not saying it's a BAD painting--in fact, I'd say it's pretty good--but it is so very, very overrated. And frankly, there have been very few paintings that didn't disappoint me when I saw them in person! I wish it weren't so, but it is. The paintings I like best are generally the ones that I saw in person first. There's this one of Joan of Arc I've been trying to re-find for over a decade, but I don't know the title, date, or artist -E House (PS--I like Van Gogh's color choice, but doubt I'd pay more than about $35 for a painting by him. Other than the whole investment thing, of course. Ditto Monet.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] historical films/ plays tv drama
Hi Fran, Much obliged, that i will do. Manny thanks Bjarne - Original Message - From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:03 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] historical films/ plays tv drama The Broadway Theatre Archive has DVDs of stage plays--from a variety of theaters--from an old TV series. That, they say, is why the images tend to be rather fuzzy. The quality of the performances is all over the map. There is a very good Tartuffe, an awful School for Scandal, a good The Rivals, an interesting Taming of the Shrew done in the commedia dell' arte tradition, and a good Cyrano de Bergerac set in the 17th century. For modern, there's some good Eugene O'Neill if you like to spend an evening getting depressed (I call him America's Ibsen), and some good Thornton Wilder. Search Amazon DVDs for Broadway Theatre Archive, and you'll see dozens more. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Hi, Now this topic is up, does any of you know of any good tv plays to buy on tape or dvd? I remember back some years where i have seen quite many interresting plays or tv dramas from the end of 17th century. I believe it was real old plays from 17th century. There is one special i remember very well, it was gorgeous made with the costumes, but who could this have ben? It must have ben BBC who made it. Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Hi, I had the same experience last week i went to se a Rembrandt exibition. I didnt like his paintings, but i loved many of his students paintings. Rembrandt made biblical motifs, rarely any live pictures. But some of his students made some stunning portraits and outdoor scenes with figures, besides they were much more bright and positive. Rembrandt is two dark and serious to my taste... Bjarne - Original Message - From: E House [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films - Original Message - From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] Absolutely. But some stuff gets canonized that probably never was very good, either because it's early, or because it's art. Along these lines, I have something to get off my chest: I don't think the Mona Lisa is really all that great a painting! Whew. There. I feel much better now. -E House (Also, eyebrowlessness is a huge pet peeve of mine.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
In a message dated 4/25/2006 11:45:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My Sister-in-law had seen her on previous visits and said she was more fascinated with the large painting at the other end of the room with all it's details. Don't leave us hanging--what painting was that? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
Sorry- I don't know the name. It is huge- 8 feet by 10 feet, maybe ? and shows a feast with many people at the table. There are hounds under the table. The tablecloth is a tapestry type with many details. The background shows people on balconies and other details beyond the feast scene. We enjoyed the many details. Is this painting hung on the opposite wall of the Mona Lisa for contrast, do you think? It had size, color, action. Susan Slow down. The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail. Travel too fast and you miss all you are traveling for. - Ride the Dark Trail by Louis L'Amour On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/25/2006 11:45:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My Sister-in-law had seen her on previous visits and said she was more fascinated with the large painting at the other end of the room with all it's details. Don't leave us hanging--what painting was that? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
Quoting Susan Data-Samtak [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry- I don't know the name. It is huge- 8 feet by 10 feet, maybe ? and shows a feast with many people at the table. There are hounds under the table. The tablecloth is a tapestry type with many details. The background shows people on balconies and other details beyond the feast scene. We enjoyed the many details. Is this painting hung on the opposite wall of the Mona Lisa for contrast, do you think? It had size, color, action. Ya gotta love the Internet. I believe that it's Veronese's Wedding at Cana. http://www.wga.hu/art/v/veronese/religio1/cana.jpg At least according to the Louvre's web site, it's on the opposite wall ... Jerusha (painting junkie) - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 4/26/2006 11:07:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ya gotta love the Internet. I believe that it's Veronese's Wedding at Cana. *** Well, it's certainly more populated than the Mona Lisa. If only something were blowing up! Then it'd really be KEWL! ROTFLOL! I don't think that they were much into blowing things up in those days -- very few war paintings. If you're into Blood, Guts, and Gore (tm), you'll want to try the plethora of Martyrdom paintings, or the Biblical Revenge paintings -- aka Judith and the Head of Holofernes ... Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
In a message dated 4/26/2006 11:07:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://www.wga.hu/art/v/veronese/religio1/cana.jpg Now THAT'S a wedding! Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
Well, that cloud on the lower left is darker and thicker than the other clouds, maybe something is blowing up off stage ??? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa In a message dated 4/26/2006 11:07:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ya gotta love the Internet. I believe that it's Veronese's Wedding at Cana. *** Well, it's certainly more populated than the Mona Lisa. If only something were blowing up! Then it'd really be KEWL! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Wedding in Cana (was Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
Quoting Susan Data-Samtak [EMAIL PROTECTED]: THANKS! Amazing what one can find, if you know where and how to look, isn't it?! and if you go here http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/v/veronese/religio1/ there are about a half-dozen detail shots from the painting Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Wedding in Cana (was Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
You folks are a wealth of knowledge and best of all-you share! Thanks. Susan My treasures do not clink together or glitter, they gleam in the sun and neigh in the night. Bedouin proverb On Apr 26, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Susan Data-Samtak [EMAIL PROTECTED]: THANKS! Amazing what one can find, if you know where and how to look, isn't it?! and if you go here http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/v/veronese/religio1/ there are about a half-dozen detail shots from the painting Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
At 03:45 PM 4/25/2006, you wrote: There are a number of reasons for Magdalen's supposed link to prostitution (which, interestingly, does not exist in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church's view of Magdalen, who is highly revered). But yes, there are similarities in the stories, and apparently some cross-fertilization, which becomes evident in the art as well, when you look at paintings of Magdalen in her wilderness-hermit phase. --Robin Just to make things clear, Mary Magdalene is equally revered in the West. She is considered one of the greatest of the saints. While there is debate whether she was the prostitute/adulteress who was saved from stoning by Jesus (and most theologians and historians believe she was not) such an identification doesn't imply that she is tainted somehow. It would simply point out the magnitude of her conversion and salvation. Pierre Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm The Illusion of Historical Fact -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
I wrote: There are a number of reasons for Magdalen's supposed link to prostitution (which, interestingly, does not exist in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church's view of Magdalen, who is highly revered). But yes, there are similarities in the stories, and apparently some cross-fertilization, which becomes evident in the art as well, when you look at paintings of Magdalen in her wilderness-hermit phase. Pierre added: Just to make things clear, Mary Magdalene is equally revered in the West. She is considered one of the greatest of the saints. While there is debate whether she was the prostitute/adulteress who was saved from stoning by Jesus (and most theologians and historians believe she was not) such an identification doesn't imply that she is tainted somehow. It would simply point out the magnitude of her conversion and salvation. Oh yes, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. And I do want to underscore your reminder that the Western Church today doesn't support the identification of Magdalen as a reformed prostitute -- but that connection is pervasive in the art of the period I study, which is medieval ... and as you point out, the magnitude of her rise from the lowest of the low was part of her appeal to ordinary sinners. However, after so many years analyzing medieval Magdalen images, where understanding the prostitution connection is vital, I was quite surprised to find out that this is absent from her backstory in the Eastern church. And that affects her representation in Eastern Christian art. Of course, I've also found that almost everything I know about iconography goes out the window when I'm looking at Eastern Christian art. Normally I can identify a saint at 50 paces, but I stood in my husband's newly decorated Greek Orthodox Church, turning around and around looking at the icons, utterly mystified because I didn't recognize the attributes for most of them, and I couldn't read the Greek labels. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Robin wrote, (Sample question: How can I be sure that such-and-so-image of the Madonna and Child isn't really Mary Magdalen and her baby by Jesus?) Sample answer - what difference does it make when you're discussing the clothing? I'm guessing your lecture is to help sort out the real clothing of the time period vs. the icons or identifiers of the saints that were not real clothes. Once I figured that out I stopped carrying around the dish of eyeballs at SCA events. No, it's not the majority of people in the room, but it only takes a few to derail the entire conversation. Well, exactly, it takes time away from your lecture when people want to natter about a tangent. As I recall, Robin, you're very good at getting the focus back on track! In this case, I don't see it as the movie or book presenting wrong information so much as introducing another possibility. Something that interests a lot of people, but does not involve costume questions. Pick any public trial - no matter what the jury ultimately says, we all have our own opinion on the guilt or innocence of the defendant. And it does not change any facts about what they were wearing. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
very well done! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 7:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction In a message dated 4/24/2006 7:52:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD4OnHCRd_4 Hysterical! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Sample question: How can I be sure that such-and-so-image of the Madonna and Child isn't really Mary Magdalen and her baby by Jesus?) Sample answer - what difference does it make when you're discussing the clothing? I'm guessing your lecture is to help sort out the real clothing of the time period vs. the icons or identifiers of the saints that were not real clothes. Once I figured that out I stopped carrying around the dish of eyeballs at SCA events. Actually, it does matter how you identify a saint, because certain elements (but not all) are typically symbolic for certain saints, and they're not always the same ones. The question of real vs. unreal images is only the beginning -- the next issue is whether any elements of the unreal images can be useful in costume research, and if so, how you can use them and what safeguards you need to apply. But, um, that's a whole lecture just to give a taste of this. Anyway, Magdalen often has some of the coolest clothing around, and Mary has a very specific wardrobe, and the two of them together account for probably a majority of female religious images in the Middle Ages, so it's important to distinguish which one is which! And working in the other direction, often the clothing is part of our clue to identification. This is a large part of that lecture. So part of my answer to someone who wants to try to read an image of Mary as being Magdalen has to do with how we use the clothing symbols to make the distinction ... and in this case, the questioner wondered whether the artist was using the clothing either to mask the real identity of the woman in the portrait, or else to provide clues to it. So you see, it did directly relate to costume study, and to my lecture topic. But it's a question that I never would have had to address if some people didn't have it in their heads that there was a conspiracy in the period to hide a whole community of people following a different religious truth. I rather wish that Dan Brown had picked a saint who wasn't quite so central to costume study. Say, Mary of Egypt. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Robin wrote, (Sample question: How can I be sure that such-and-so-image of the Madonna and Child isn't really Mary Magdalen and her baby by Jesus?) Sample answer - what difference does it make when you're discussing the clothing? I'm guessing your lecture is to help sort out the real clothing of the time period vs. the icons or identifiers of the saints that were not real clothes. Once I figured that out I stopped carrying around the dish of eyeballs at SCA events. Ah, you see my sample answer would have been 'because it pre-dates Dan Brown and in the Medieval period you could have been killed for saying what he said' several schisms were eradicated (usually by violent means) for saying much less controversial things than Jesus had sex with Mary Magdalene. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 4:21:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And working in the other direction, often the clothing is part of our clue to identification. This relates to theatre. Since Greek theatre [and no doubt before] the costume is a symbol. It tells you who the character is before anyone has opened their mouths. So too with Roman comedy and on into Comedia del'arte. The instant you see the standardized costume, the audience knows if it's the old father [Pantalone], or the sad love lorn character [Poirot], or the clever servant [Harlequino], or a Colombina or Zerlina or the Capitano and so on. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 8:55:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This relates to theatre. Since Greek theatre [and no doubt before] the costume is a symbol. And, I believe also in various forms of Japanese theater, yes? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 9:28:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And, I believe also in various forms of Japanese theater, yes? ** Most definitely! And Indian and Tai, Bali, Indonesiaetc...etc... Notice how all these, and the Greek too, are religious in nature. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/04/2006 13:48 wrote ... or the sad love lorn character [Poirot]... I think you mean Pierrot - Poirot is Agatha Christie's Belgian detective! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 9:48:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you mean Pierrot - Poirot is Agatha Christie's Belgian detective! * Oops.and HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
And working in the other direction, often the clothing is part of our clue to identification. This is a large part of that lecture. So part of my answer to someone who wants to try to read an image of Mary as being Magdalen has to do with how we use the clothing symbols to make the distinction ... and in this case, the questioner wondered whether the artist was using the clothing either to mask the real identity of the woman in the portrait, or else to provide clues to it. So you see, it did directly relate to costume study, and to my lecture topic. Ok, that makes sense, then. I suppose it adds another hour to the lecture if you start discussing how one saint is hidden by another. And where is that red brocade on the feminine-looking figure in The Last Supper, I wonder! :-D I rather wish that Dan Brown had picked a saint who wasn't quite so central to costume study. Say, Mary of Egypt. Except Dan Brown didn't make the choice. The idea of Jesus and Mary Magdalene as a couple has been around long before the Da Vinci Code and even before Holy Blood, Holy Grail whose authors recently accused Brown of plagerizing. For those who want to read more, one interesting and down-to-earth writer exploring the relationship is Margaret Starbird, and yes, that is her real name. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Robin wrote: I rather wish that Dan Brown had picked a saint who wasn't quite so central to costume study. Say, Mary of Egypt. snerk snicker I can just see it now. 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Robin wrote] I rather wish that Dan Brown had picked a saint who wasn't quite so central to costume study. Say, Mary of Egypt. Except Dan Brown didn't make the choice. Um, *that* was a throwaway line, and meant to amuse. This is Mary of Egypt: http://www.wga.hu/html/m/memling/3mature1/17rein4.html (right side) See, no implications for costume study there. (Interestingly, the woman on the left is St. Wilgifortis, whom I do use in the lecture, as she owes her existence to an error of costume interpretation. But that's one of the better examples in the lecture, and I don't wish to spoil it here.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Um, *that* was a throwaway line, and meant to amuse. This is Mary of Egypt: http://www.wga.hu/html/m/memling/3mature1/17rein4.html (right side) See, no implications for costume study there. Interesting - Mary Magdalene also has the association of being a penitent wandering in the desert for many years, and long hair is one of her identifiers! There was a lot of confusion between the Marys, so I guess Mary of Egypt is where the prostitution came from? That's a discussion for another time (Interestingly, the woman on the left is St. Wilgifortis, whom I do use in the lecture, as she owes her existence to an error of costume interpretation. But that's one of the better examples in the lecture, and I don't wish to spoil it here.) The description on that page says a lot! I guess I'll have to wait until you give that lecture somewhere around me. Elizabeth wrote, Ah, you see my sample answer would have been 'because it pre-dates Dan Brown Again, not relevant since many had that theory before DVC brought it to popular culture and in the Medieval period you could have been killed for saying what he said' several schisms were eradicated (usually by violent means) for saying much less controversial things than Jesus had sex with Mary Magdalene. Yes, and...? That's the whole point, that the clues were *hidden* in the paintings, and now people are looking for those clues! Margaret Starbird showed a series of paintings of Mary Magdalene, with identifiers such as red brocade, an ointment jar, long hair, and (the new one for me) Xs being included either in her outfit, the architecture or somewhere else in the painting. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting - Mary Magdalene also has the association of being a penitent wandering in the desert for many years, and long hair is one of her identifiers! There was a lot of confusion between the Marys, so I guess Mary of Egypt is where the prostitution came from? That's a discussion for another time There are a number of reasons for Magdalen's supposed link to prostitution (which, interestingly, does not exist in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church's view of Magdalen, who is highly revered). But yes, there are similarities in the stories, and apparently some cross-fertilization, which becomes evident in the art as well, when you look at paintings of Magdalen in her wilderness-hermit phase. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 3:07:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: becomes evident in the art as well, when you look at paintings of Magdalen in her wilderness-hermit phase. Doncha love those George De la Tour paintings??? So beautiful. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
- Original Message - From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films ** Hopefully, every once in a while, there's some ART! The line between entertainment and art is extremely flexible, unless there's so much art you can't possibly view it as entertainment. With novels, it's like Charles Dickens, and many other authors, are one generation's entertainment. Then later, just because they're old, they get canonized in English Lit classes as ART. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly happy to read the stuff and discuss the symbolism in it to my and everyone else's heart's content. But it still seems a little ironic. And some of us still see it as entertainment--I found The Pickwick Papers to be one of the funniest books I ever read, and Sam Weller is quite possibly my favorite book character of all time. There are parts of that book that made me positively roar with laughter, and others that made me cry. Sometimes, the entertainment of previous days survives as entertainment as well as art, just because it's GOOD. To drag this kicking and screaming back on topic (at lest somewhat) I ahve always wanted to make a Sam Weller doll. Now I have to delve back into the book and read up on his clothing. Oh, the pain! (insert obligatory dramatic pose) Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
And some of us still see it as entertainment--I found The Pickwick Papers to be one of the funniest books I ever read, and Sam Weller is quite possibly my favorite book character of all time. There are parts of that book that made me positively roar with laughter, and others that made me cry. Sometimes, the entertainment of previous days survives as entertainment as well as art, just because it's GOOD. Absolutely. But some stuff gets canonized that probably never was very good, either because it's early, or because it's art. And other stuff that's perfectly good, at least as entertainment, gets lost, at least for a long time, because it goes out of style, or becauze it's by a minority author, or because it's an early work that was destroyed. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:24:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sometimes, the entertainment of previous days survives as entertainment as well as art, just because it's GOOD. * Why is it assumed that art is not entertaining? Weird. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] historical films/ plays tv drama
The Broadway Theatre Archive has DVDs of stage plays--from a variety of theaters--from an old TV series. That, they say, is why the images tend to be rather fuzzy. The quality of the performances is all over the map. There is a very good Tartuffe, an awful School for Scandal, a good The Rivals, an interesting Taming of the Shrew done in the commedia dell' arte tradition, and a good Cyrano de Bergerac set in the 17th century. For modern, there's some good Eugene O'Neill if you like to spend an evening getting depressed (I call him America's Ibsen), and some good Thornton Wilder. Search Amazon DVDs for Broadway Theatre Archive, and you'll see dozens more. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Hi, Now this topic is up, does any of you know of any good tv plays to buy on tape or dvd? I remember back some years where i have seen quite many interresting plays or tv dramas from the end of 17th century. I believe it was real old plays from 17th century. There is one special i remember very well, it was gorgeous made with the costumes, but who could this have ben? It must have ben BBC who made it. Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] historical films/ plays tv drama
In a message dated 4/25/2006 7:04:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Broadway Theatre Archive ** Yeswell worth checking out...even the bad productions. I remember when School for Scandal aired. I was in college then and all my design teachers LOVED the costumes! YIKES! They're dreadful but for Mrs Candor's. The King Lear with James Earl Jones and Raul Julia is GREATand it has many things against it ...like it was a Shakespeare in the Park performance filmed outside with the [by today's standards] large mikes CF on every costume. The Skin of our Teeth is very good too. And there's also American Film Theatre...which is equally uneven. I'm not sure if there's anything 17th century in there. There is Luther. And Galileo. There's a great The Iceman Cometh [Takes place in the 19 teens] which is lng and you want to kill yourself afterwards, but it is perfection. Eonesco's Rhinoceros is not great but worth a look. Same for Genet's The Maids. Ahhremember when theatre and dance and opera were considered worthwhile in America, not luxuries? The good old days ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:24:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sometimes, the entertainment of previous days survives as entertainment as well as art, just because it's GOOD. * Why is it assumed that art is not entertaining? Weird. Perhaps because everyone has heard of this wonderful artistic film or book (insert film or book of your choice) that turns out to be an absolute crashing bore, but receives rave reviews because it's art. (It's late, I am seriously caffeine deprive, please don't ask me tonight for specific examples.) I know that Picasso is considered fine art. I still don't like it. It simply doesn't appeal to me. The Harry Potter books are *not* considered fine art, but they are entertaining. I happen to enjoy them thoroughly. I haven't read the DaVinci code, or seen *any* of the films we've been discussing here. Amusement parks bore me to tears, museums bring me to tears of joy. To each his own, right? Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
- Original Message - From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] Absolutely. But some stuff gets canonized that probably never was very good, either because it's early, or because it's art. Along these lines, I have something to get off my chest: I don't think the Mona Lisa is really all that great a painting! Whew. There. I feel much better now. -E House (Also, eyebrowlessness is a huge pet peeve of mine.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
snip Along these lines, I have something to get off my chest: I don't think the Mona Lisa is really all that great a painting! Whew. There. I feel much better now. -E House (Also, eyebrowlessness is a huge pet peeve of mine.) Well I believe Leonardo da Vinci would agree with you, he never was satisfied with it and X-rays have shown 4 complete re-drafts of the painting. But he seems to have had a love-hate relationship with the painting because he couldn't get it right. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 8:33:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know that Picasso is considered fine art. I still don't like it. It simply doesn't appeal to me. What a strange statement, since he paints in many different styles during his career. Do you not like the blue period? The rose period? His neoclassical? Cubism?And he also does etchings and lithographs and sculpture. Just what are you referring to? Perhaps if you knew something about what he was trying to communicate, you might get some of his works. What do you think he was up to? I don't particularly like Matisse, but I would never declare it not art. And though his paintings leave me cold, his cut paper collages I like very much. Both these artists have so much to do with imagery and attitudes we take for granted today, it's amazing. They are a major part of our culture. It has more to do with whether a lot of people like it or not or whether it makes money. Often one has to meet really exceptional stuff half way. It often takes an effort on the part of the audience as well as a considerable about of effort from the artist. One cannot just expect to sit passively and be spoon fed everythingthough this is what many people expect. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
I don't think the Mona Lisa is really all that great a painting! *** Have you seen it in person? I have, and I didn't think it was worth fighting the crush of people standing around it. Also it was so dark as to make it hard to see. The time spent working my way towards the painting and fighting my way out again would have been much better spent in any number of relatively empty galleries. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films Mona Lisa
I saw the Mona Lisa this past summer. The crowds were very distracting to being able to see her and appreciate her. My Sister-in-law had seen her on previous visits and said she was more fascinated with the large painting at the other end of the room with all it's details. No one was looking at that painting, so I was able to spend far more time, up close and personal with that painting than the Mona Lisa. If I could have had the same viewing opportunity, I would most likely have enjoyed the Mona Lisa much more. Susan My treasures do not clink together or glitter, they gleam in the sun and neigh in the night. Bedouin proverb -- On Apr 25, 2006, at 11:20 PM, Land of Oz wrote: I don't think the Mona Lisa is really all that great a painting! *** Have you seen it in person? I have, and I didn't think it was worth fighting the crush of people standing around it. Also it was so dark as to make it hard to see. The time spent working my way towards the painting and fighting my way out again would have been much better spent in any number of relatively empty galleries. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
I feel that way about Van Gogh. Fran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/25/2006 8:33:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know that Picasso is considered fine art. I still don't like it. It simply doesn't appeal to me. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/25/2006 11:22:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have, and I didn't think it was worth fighting the crush of people standing around it. Also it was so dark as to make it hard to see. The time spent working my way towards the painting and fighting my way out again would have been much better spent in any number of relatively empty galleries. I can understand that. I heard many a complaint about its display. But it's still art, of course. I hate Pachelbel's Canon. It's not even a canon! I find Vivaldi writes the same pleasant but ultimately boring concerto over and over again. But they are still art. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/26/2006 12:14:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I feel that way about Van Gogh. Fran ** Fran! Oh no! Too bad! Oh well. I saw the exhibit in DC a while back. The colors were amazing. Those paintings of lavender irises in mint green leaves! Breath taking! [It was neat how his pallet changed over the years. Dark...blacks and browns [Potato Eaters]...to subtle greens and lavenders and pinks and blues [the irises and sunflowers]to intense and bold [Starry Night and the Crows in the Wheat Field] And againwhether one likes it or notit's art. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes out. There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's entirely factual. Susan That is already the case. I live work in/near Edinburgh now and you just need to whisper the word Roslyn chapel and you can see people's heads turn beetroot red. ;-) Anyway, I have become far more mellow and tolerant in recent years, particularly towards films that never claim to be authentic. I didn't used to be able to switch my brain off - I am now and can enjoy those films. I'm thankful for having mellowed. Where is the point in tearing angrily everything apart and thus losing one's ability to enjoy oneself? However, if a film does claim to be authentic, I still lose my rag and probably always will. Nicole If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. _ Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
But ice floats! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kelly grant Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:12 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality. I would have to disagree with you on the 'most modern people' part of your statement. I think that history nerds, of which I am a proud member ;-), are in the minority. Why else would Hollywood have the balls to make the new Titanic movie that is comming out this summer...the one where they find Jack Dawson's body frozen in a block of ice at the bottom of the North Atlantic, bring him to the surface, thaw him out and he's perfectly healthy! I saw the trailer the other night...look for it, but try not to gag! We had enough problems at the museum with the first movie...here goes round two! You would not believe the things people say. Kelly ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
At least they had some imagination in not calling this The Thing III! Kathleen - Original Message - From: kelly grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 6:11 AM Subject: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality. I would have to disagree with you on the 'most modern people' part of your statement. I think that history nerds, of which I am a proud member ;-), are in the minority. Why else would Hollywood have the balls to make the new Titanic movie that is comming out this summer...the one where they find Jack Dawson's body frozen in a block of ice at the bottom of the North Atlantic, bring him to the surface, thaw him out and he's perfectly healthy! I saw the trailer the other night...look for it, but try not to gag! We had enough problems at the museum with the first movie...here goes round two! You would not believe the things people say. Kelly ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Lavolta Press wrote: So what? There are a great many fields which you and I know little about, which are no more or less important than history, and which we probably have many misconceptions about. And if you're going to teach you need to be able to deal with people not knowing everything already without looking down on them. I don't think it's a question of looking down on people. As a person who teaches costume history to college students, I'm more frustrated than anything. Yes, I'm willing to teach anyone who's interested enough to sign up for my classes, regardless of the origin of their interest or what misconceptions they have when they walk in. I assume that there will need to be some debunking of common myths. The frustration has to do with two things: (1) how much class time gets soaked up with the debunking, limiting the time we can spend going beyond the basics, and (2) ways that students think about history that similarly limit our progress in the class. In my costume history class, I try to teach methodology and thought-process as well as content. Many students do not think critically about history and will believe anything they see on the screen or anywhere else. Their mode of learning is very passive. My favorite kind of student is symbolized by someone with a shovel and a gleam in their eye who will dig out information and question it, then attempt to link it all together, question the linkages, etc. Many of my students are more like someone sitting there with their empty hands held out who will take any information that comes their way and stick it in storage until they need it for the test. Of course, I won't try to lay this at the door of the movie industry, as the problem is altogether deeper. But when these empty-handed students go to the movies, they store that information away without questioning it, then bring it in to class. Then we have to spend class time unteaching and reteaching--sometimes it feels like two steps forward and three steps back. It's wonderful that they're interested, but I'd love to spend that class time moving forward instead, building on the correct knowledge that they might have gotten in high school. I don't mind trying to teach them to be more active learners, but again class and assignment time spent on that could be used to move into some really interesting areas of the topic and the methodology. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
Same trailer, but not the same site...thank Christ! it's a fake... Kelly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD4OnHCRd_4 You mean the fake trailer? These are clips from previous movies (I definitely spotted a Romeo and Juliet shot) and mention of the warm liquid goo phase comes from the first Austin Powers Movie. I'm not sure, but it may have been an April 1st joke or a tie in with the release recently of the extended version of the original movie. Michaela de Bruce http://glittersweet.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
I saw parts from Contact, The Ghosts of the Abyss, The real Titanic movie, The Hulk, The Fugative, and Con Air. It had parts from the movie where DiCaprio was the boy/man that was a conman opposite Tom Hanks (can't remember the name) But it just shows that anything is possible when someone cuts and pastes parts to form an idea... could it be true... probably not. But a good work of fiction putting all those together like that. - Original Message - From: michaela [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction Why else would Hollywood have the balls to make the new Titanic movie that is comming out this summer...the one where they find Jack Dawson's body frozen in a block of ice at the bottom of the North Atlantic, bring him to the surface, thaw him out and he's perfectly healthy! I saw the trailer the other night...look for it, but try not to gag! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD4OnHCRd_4 You mean the fake trailer? These are clips from previous movies (I definitely spotted a Romeo and Juliet shot) and mention of the warm liquid goo phase comes from the first Austin Powers Movie. I'm not sure, but it may have been an April 1st joke or a tie in with the release recently of the extended version of the original movie. Michaela de Bruce http://glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.5/322 - Release Date: 22/04/2006 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films (was: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 351)
Sharon Krossa wrote: snipped for convenience -- that is, instead of screaming If you use this movie as a source of historical information, you're a fool, they whisper seductively Honest, really, we're not making this up -- believe us. Because the problem isn't that films are inaccurate -- the problem is when audiences believe what they see in films. Sharon, this whole post was wonderful! I always laugh when people get their knickers in a twist because something in a movie is inaccurate. It's a MOVIE for pete's sake. Entertainment for the masses. History Experts are not included in the masses. It would be nice, but it ain't so. It's the same with fiction books. People in certain sectors get totally bent out of shape over the representation of an aspect of society and start screaming That's Not True! Well, *sure* -- that's why it's called a Work Of Fiction! There are other aspects of life where history experts *aren't* knowledgeable and other incorrect details may be totally lost on them! Like a movie once where they depicted a mare having a foal, supposedly sired by a particular stallion in the movie. The color of the foal was genetically impossible from those two parents. How many people do you suppose noticed? Well, back to costume related topics. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
In a message dated 4/24/2006 6:12:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why else would Hollywood have the balls to make the new Titanic movie that is comming out this summer...the one where they find Jack Dawson's body frozen in a block of ice at the bottom of the North Atlantic, bring him to the surface, thaw him out and he's perfectly healthy! I saw the trailer the other night...look for it, but try not to gag! Hahahahahathat's science fiction! Anything's better that the original! [I'm teasing!] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
In a message dated 4/24/2006 7:01:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But ice floats! * Yeahbut Jack's so full of crap, he sinks. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
kelly grant wrote: I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality. I would have to disagree with you on the 'most modern people' part of your statement. I think that history nerds, of which I am a proud member ;-), are in the minority. You have to be a history nerd to be aware that a new toothpaste probably won't change your life just because the ad says so; etc. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
- Original Message - From: Susan Carroll-Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes out. There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's entirely factual. My church is actually doing a month-long sermon series on the Da Vinci Code, and has assigned the entire congregation 'homework' of reading the book! -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
Sorry, I meant you _don't_ have to be a history nerd to be skeptical of advertising. Or even a science nerd. Fran Lavolta Press wrote: kelly grant wrote: I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality. I would have to disagree with you on the 'most modern people' part of your statement. I think that history nerds, of which I am a proud member ;-), are in the minority. You have to be a history nerd to be aware that a new toothpaste probably won't change your life just because the ad says so; etc. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
At 7:55 PM -0700 4/23/06, Lavolta Press wrote: I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes out. There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's entirely factual. So what? There are a great many fields which you and I know little about, which are no more or less important than history, and which we probably have many misconceptions about. And if you're going to teach you need to be able to deal with people not knowing everything already without looking down on them. The problem isn't people not knowing everything -- the problem is people who don't know something about a subject thinking they do _based on having seen a movie_ (often despite their claims of knowing it's just movie, etc.) One of the things good teachers do, in addition to teaching how to evaluate evidence logically, is teach about evaluating sources. Movies, by their very nature, are not good or reliable sources. And many students, just like many readers of online forums and mailing lists, really, really hate hearing that the movies they love are not good or reliable sources and should not be used as such. Some insist on arguing about it. Which wouldn't be a problem in the history classroom, if it weren't for the fact that the time spent on it is time not spent teaching and learning about real history (including good and reliable sources). And it wouldn't be a problem in the world at large if it weren't for the fact that being able to evaluate sources and use them appropriately, and generally being able to tell reliable from unreliable information, isn't a skill important only for professional historians -- it's important for managers and workers (regardless of industry), voters, jurors, parents, and so on. It's important for many every day, real world decisions -- even, in some cases, life and death decisions. Wisdom isn't knowing everything -- it's knowing when you don't know something. And I, perhaps naively, believe everyone has the capacity to be wise. That's why I care not only about professional historians, but also amateur ones, and even casual movie goers. So when the opportunity comes up, I talk about the nature of films, and how they shouldn't be used. That such comments inevitably get not only strong reactions but also misinterpreted just demonstrates that the subject isn't all that obvious or a non-issue and that there is indeed a need for people to make such comments and observations. Sharon -- Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language more: Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Lavolta Press wrote: I assume you do have the routine of giving the lecture and then allowing X fixed minutes at the end for questions, encouraging any really detailed ones to be postponed to conversation with you during one of your standard office hours? They're encouraged to ask questions at any point in the class (and they do), and they know I would be happy to discuss things later during my office hours or by appointment if we don't have time in class. Since many of my students also work in the costume shop, we end up having discussions there as well. What level of course are you teaching--upper division seminar in the history department? Or a costume history class tacked onto a home ec/clothing design or theater program? If the latter, you're not likely to get much opportunity to teach a seminar course focusing on metholdology. It's like the professor of freshman remedial math wanting to teach the physics majors--that's just not how the college set that course up. It is upper level, and it is part of the theater program--part of the major, not tacked onto the program. Since I am the only one teaching it, I can teach it pretty much however I want to. I think that clothing history has for the most part been taught as a straight survey course, but this is a disservice to the field and to the students. Putting in some methodology really seems to help the students grasp how and why some of what I'm telling them is important or interesting. Not that I know much about most of them either. But in light of the fact of how little most people know about most things, and how many misconceptions they hold about them, getting self-righteous about being a Guardian of Knowledge because you know the difference between knitting and naalbinding, or something, and Hollywood and/or the general public doesn't, is pretty silly. History is no more important than any other subject, even if it is the most interesting one to you. My goal as a teacher is to teach. Self-Righteous Guardian of Knowledge? I suppose it's possible--I might come off as self-righteous, and it's my business to further the knowledge of others. But again I say to you that it's not contempt that I have about people's misconceptions, it's frustration that those misconceptions and their way of thinking and learning make it harder for me to teach them as much as I would like to in a semester. Is this a Great Tragedy? No. But I strive for excellence in my profession, however insignificant it may be in the grand scheme of things, and I hope for excellence in my students as well in the classes that I teach. Does the fact that I don't know the inner workings of physics (which of course are important and I'm sure would be interesting) mean that I shouldn't strive for excellence in my classroom and expect the same from my students? I assume it's the educational system that makes people unanlytical. My memory of formal education up to college is largely that of being expected to sit quietly, not ask qusetions, and spew information back for tests. I'm sorry to say that this seems to be common and I think is in large part responsible for the passive learning style that most students have when they get to college. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction
No worries, I caught what you meant ;-) Kelly Bravery is something you can experience on the spur of the moment, faced with danger. To have courage, you must think about the dangers in advance, then weigh the risks, and then do what you have to do, despite your fears Caius Merlyn Britannicus From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films: fact vs. fiction Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:21:09 -0700 Sorry, I meant you _don't_ have to be a history nerd to be skeptical of advertising. Or even a science nerd. Fran Lavolta Press wrote: kelly grant wrote: I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality. I would have to disagree with you on the 'most modern people' part of your statement. I think that history nerds, of which I am a proud member ;-), are in the minority. You have to be a history nerd to be aware that a new toothpaste probably won't change your life just because the ad says so; etc. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/24/2006 7:43:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But I also don't think cultural survival is purely a Darwinian matter of survival of the fittest. Depends on that constitutes fittest but I get your point. Things beloved today will fade into obscurity and stuff the critics panned will be seen as geniusin some cases. But popularity has nothing to do with art, and the things that do survive do so because they are exceptional in some wayeven when they were 1st doneand even as they pass through that period where they are considered old fashion. For instance, Handel operas were STILL amazing even when they were thought, as they were for centuries, unperformable. Even then selected arias and instrumentals were in the rep. Or for instance...my mother used to think of Maxfield Parish as advertising artwhich, y'know, it wasbut it sure was a cut above. So things that survive have a certain standing, even in their own day. We've discussed this before. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, but there are some criteria for art. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Greetings-- Sharon L. Krossa wrote: Which, again, is why I prefer films such as A Knight's Tale and Shakespeare in Love, which include enough truly obvious anachronisms (such as modern rock music, psychiatrist jokes, modern coffee mugs, etc.), and attitude, to essentially scream out If you use this movie as source of historical information, you're a fool over movies such as TFWNSNBU, Elizabeth, and Kingdom of Heaven, which go out of their way, both in the film itself and in the promotion of the film, to try to persuade people that the film is historically accurate and real and true and can and should be used as a source of historical information -- that is, instead of screaming If you use this movie as a source of historical information, you're a fool, they whisper seductively Honest, really, we're not making this up -- believe us. The thing that gets me is that the movies in the former category (with the obvious anachronisms) often end up being more accurate and truer to the spirit of the period they are trying to portray than the supposedly accurate ones. I enjoyed Knight's Tale, despite a few clunkers here and there, because there are parts of the whole tourney circuit atmosphere and the way certain things are set up that are dead-on (and I have agreement on this from a historian of medieval tournaments). Both movies also use humour in a way that reveals the past in a way a modern person might understand. One of the best examples of this is perhaps the best King Arthur movie ever made, the immortal Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The more you know about Arthurian legend and medieval history, the funnier it gets--although it's pretty funny even without a jot of knowledge about either. Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Because the problem isn't that films are inaccurate -- the problem is when audiences believe what they see in films. On the other hand, the benefit is that films, novels, and other forms of fiction have gotten many people interested in historical subjects who might well not have given them a second thought. Except for getting a passing grade in required American History and History of Civilization courses--and then forgetting almost all the material immediately after finals. Let's face it, history is neither particularly valued nor particularly job-getting in our society. My bet is that most college history professors seeing enthusiastic enrollment increase after a major film for that era is released, waft a mental Thanks! to the producers. The reality, also, is that there's absolutely nothing you can do to make the film industry work your way--unless you're a mogul in it. You're just another viewer. If you don't like the film, get rid of the DVD and view another one you like better. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
At 3:34 PM -0700 4/23/06, Lavolta Press wrote: Because the problem isn't that films are inaccurate -- the problem is when audiences believe what they see in films. On the other hand, the benefit is that films, novels, and other forms of fiction have gotten many people interested in historical subjects who might well not have given them a second thought. Except for getting a passing grade in required American History and History of Civilization courses--and then forgetting almost all the material immediately after finals. Let's face it, history is neither particularly valued nor particularly job-getting in our society. My bet is that most college history professors seeing enthusiastic enrollment increase after a major film for that era is released, waft a mental Thanks! to the producers. The reality, also, is that there's absolutely nothing you can do to make the film industry work your way--unless you're a mogul in it. You're just another viewer. If you don't like the film, get rid of the DVD and view another one you like better. You're missing the point of my comments: The problem isn't that films are inaccurate means that the problem isn't that films are inaccurate. Thus, since the problem isn't that films are inaccurate, the solution isn't for film makers not to make inaccurate films. (Which is just as well, since they _can't_ make films that are accurate -- all films, by their nature, are inaccurate to one degree or another. It is inevitable.) The problem, as I said, is when audiences believe what they see in films. The solution to that is to try to get more people to understand the nature of films -- such as that they are inevitably inaccurate -- and thus the appropriate and inappropriate uses of films, and to stop using them inappropriately, specifically, to stop using them as if they were reliable sources of historical information. Now, admittedly, it would help a lot with this if movie makers would stop lying to their audiences by making false claims about the accuracy of their films. Personally, I'm not holding my breath on this, as unscrupulous movie makers show no signs of giving up lying about this or any other matter. (There are other movie makers who seem to do just fine without such lying, but my guess is the unscrupulous kind will always be with us...) So while I do urge movie makers to be more honest, my real target for change is movie watchers, not movie makers. As for college history professors, their reactions to seeing enthusiastic enrollment increases after a major film varies greatly, depending not only on their individual personalities, but also the specific topic they are teaching and the degree of damage the particular film has done, and especially whether the students attracted believed what they saw or not. Many professors would rather have only 20 students truly interested in learning real history than 200 students insisting they already know all the answers because they saw the movie and getting mad when the professor shatters those fondly held movie myths that inspired them to study history. For as I said in a previous post -- teaching is a lot more fun than unteaching, and movies that bring students to the classroom usually also bring a lot of need for unteaching. Sometimes the balance is tolerable, sometimes it isn't. I know TFWNSNBU has resulted in me wasting a lot of time trying to unteach things that were never an issue before the film -- and in Scottish history we already had more than our fair share of things that need to be untaught just from the general culture. It is very easy for all the unteaching of what didn't happen to completely crowd out any positive teaching of what did. But if more movie goers didn't use movies as if they were reliable sources of history... Sharon -- Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language more: Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Historical Films (was: Knight's Tale)
I had never before heard about TFWNSNBU, so didn't know if it was superstition or a critique. :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sharon L. Krossa Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:20 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Historical Films (was: Knight's Tale) At 12:12 PM -0400 4/23/06, Carol Kocian wrote: Braveheart SharonC., who says Macbeth backstage too, and doesn't spit, turn around, go out and come back in, etc. I quite happily say Macbeth, and I don't really care if anyone else says in my presence the name of That Film Whose Name Shall Not Be Uttered (though I may spit ;-). I avoid saying the name as an expression of my feelings (which others may or may not share), not superstition. On the Revlist (American Revolution) some people will write *spit* after they mention the movie, The Patriot. It's a testament to Mel that there are such reactions to his movies... I don't find this reaction surprising, given that Mel in particular goes to great lengths to persuade audiences that his historical films are accurate, while at the same time not really bothering much with historical accuracy and essentially making the same movie over and over again. The resulting reaction to the supposedly historical films by those who care about history is predictable, and magnified by the popularity of his movies (which increases the numbers who believe the nonsense peddled as truth by Gibson). (The Patriot *spit* and TFWNSNBU are essentially the same plot, which plot borrows a great deal from the plots of various contemporary and futuristic movies Mel has been in. Never mind that the real history he claimed to be portraying doesn't actually fit that plot...) If Mel did not work so hard at selling his movies as accurate, he and his movies would not get the strong reaction they get for being so inaccurate. Sharon -- Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language more: Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
The problem, as I said, is when audiences believe what they see in films. The solution to that is to try to get more people to understand the nature of films -- such as that they are inevitably inaccurate -- and thus the appropriate and inappropriate uses of films, and to stop using them inappropriately, specifically, to stop using them as if they were reliable sources of historical information. I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality. Now, admittedly, it would help a lot with this if movie makers would stop lying to their audiences by making false claims about the accuracy of their films. Personally, I'm not holding my breath on this, as unscrupulous movie makers show no signs of giving up lying about this or any other matter. Lying and unscrupulous is putting it too strong, unless it's a supposed to be a documentary. Even then, there are often multiple, equally valid interpretations of things. So while I do urge movie makers to be more honest, my real target for change is movie watchers, not movie makers. snip Many professors would rather have only 20 students truly interested in learning real history than 200 students insisting they already know all the answers because they saw the movie and getting mad when the professor shatters those fondly held movie myths that inspired them to study history. I don't recall any of my professors being anything but enthusiastic about students' sincere interest in their subjects. Nor did they expect students to know all about a topic before signing up for a class--if they had, those students wouldn't have bothered to sign up. For as I said in a previous post -- teaching is a lot more fun than unteaching, and movies that bring students to the classroom usually also bring a lot of need for unteaching. snip OK, well, I was trained as a historian too . . . and I've spent my entire working life (ever since college) as a writer and editor of how-to on a number of subjects, in addition to historic customing. In other words, teaching. And I don't think it is productive to maintain an attitude that other people are wrong, full of misconceptions and inaccuracies, requiring my personal correction in order to set the world right, and bemoaning the fact that everyone doesn't know everything I know. I remember in a historiography seminar, the professor asking the students what first got them interested in history. Most of them came up with legends, old or modern historical novels, films, and so on. I remember the professor saying that most people become interested in history that way, and that historians tend to be romantics; you just can't let romanticism get in the way of social science. But that's for professionals; not the world at large. There are lots of good courses and lectures and books and websites out there. People who want in-depth information will look for it and find it. Those who don't want it, won't. And there will always be people who prefer a dream to reality. So what? Dreams and fictions are important too. Reenacting is just a hobby, and there are many ways to enjoy it. For some people it's serious research; and for some, it's pretending they're Robin Hood or Scarlett O'Hara or whoever. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
snip One of the best examples of this is perhaps the best King Arthur movie ever made, the immortal Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The more you know about Arthurian legend and medieval history, the funnier it gets--although it's pretty funny even without a jot of knowledge about either. Susan Very true, if anybody wants a good scholarly look at medieval films have a look at this book: Aberth, John. _A_Knight_at_the_Movies:_Medieval_History_on_Film. Routledge New York. 2003. ISBN 0-415-93885-6 the example he gives of a good historical movie is in fact Monty Python and the Holy Grail and he points out just how relevant the jokes are. I'm currently doing a course on History on Film (not history of film but looking at the way history is portrayed in movies). Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
Greetings-- Lavolta Press wrote: Let's face it, history is neither particularly valued nor particularly job-getting in our society. Tell me about it. PhD in history. Now working as a project manager (a job I love, by the way--and doing the doctorate was great prep work!) My bet is that most college history professors seeing enthusiastic enrollment increase after a major film for that era is released, waft a mental Thanks! to the producers. Having been in academia when a number of these movies came out, I can tell you they don't really do all that much for enrollment in history classes, unless someone goes out of their way to target a class specifically at the time period or topic covered in the movie, and to gear the class for those who wouldn't have otherwise taken a history class. The general history classes most non-historians take are too broad to benefit from interest generated by a focused historical movie, and those who are taking higher-level courses which would have a closer focus would likely have taken them anyway. I was a TA when that Scottish film came out. It got a little tiring after awhile continually debunking it. If it had brought about pertinent and probing questions about the period at hand (we've had some excellent historical movies that have done that--just not much for the medieval period), it would have been a different story altogether. But that particular movie didn't. (The part that got *very* old very quickly was the whole right of the first night thing that the movie claims Edward promulgated on the Scots. Grr.) I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes out. There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's entirely factual. Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
In a message dated 4/23/2006 7:46:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But if more movie goers didn't use movies as if they were reliable sources of history... ** If only they would not use them as a reliable source of anything. Many people REALLY think Bruce Willis is a tough guy you'd want to have on your side in a pinch. NOT! They think Julie Andrews really is singing right then and there on that Austrian hill side during a helicopter shot. Uh huh. Hell they think that really is an Austrian hill side! And I love those behind the scenes and Making of featurettes on DVDsas if they're true! No... they are films too! Nothing on film is real. Not even reality TV! Hell, we've got a president who won't listen to Science on global warming, but invites Michael Crichton to the White House to discuss his stupid little work of fiction State of Fear! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes out. There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's entirely factual. So what? There are a great many fields which you and I know little about, which are no more or less important than history, and which we probably have many misconceptions about. And if you're going to teach you need to be able to deal with people not knowing everything already without looking down on them. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltaress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Historical Films
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes out. There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's entirely factual. I'm already getting that from my audiences. I do a lecture on dress of the saints -- that is, how to use religious figures in costume research. One of the figures I spend a lot of time on is Mary Magdalene, and ever since Da Vinci Code came out, I've had to spend a chunk of my QA time patiently setting people straight on misconceptions they picked up out of that damn book. (Sample question: How can I be sure that such-and-so-image of the Madonna and Child isn't really Mary Magdalen and her baby by Jesus?) No, it's not the majority of people in the room, but it only takes a few to derail the entire conversation. I can't predict whether the movie will just make it worse, but it sure won't make it better. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Historical Films
Yeah, remember here in California, people voted The Terminator into the office of governor. And when I was a kid, I remember hearing one adult say she was voting for Ronald Reagan for governor because he always played such nice guys in movies and she was sure he was just like that! Even as a kid, I was appalled. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films In a message dated 4/23/2006 7:46:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But if more movie goers didn't use movies as if they were reliable sources of history... ** If only they would not use them as a reliable source of anything. Many people REALLY think Bruce Willis is a tough guy you'd want to have on your side in a pinch. NOT! They think Julie Andrews really is singing right then and there on that Austrian hill side during a helicopter shot. Uh huh. Hell they think that really is an Austrian hill side! And I love those behind the scenes and Making of featurettes on DVDsas if they're true! No... they are films too! Nothing on film is real. Not even reality TV! Hell, we've got a president who won't listen to Science on global warming, but invites Michael Crichton to the White House to discuss his stupid little work of fiction State of Fear! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
