[hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Very interesting little experiment there Spencer. Clearly shows that custom servers tab isn't working at all, never will. The guys at valve really need to admit it was a mistake and focus effort on something that will facilitate their original goals without hurting the community like the current implementation. Stats where I viewed showed a 10 to 1 ratio of potential players:- Internet Tab TF2 Server has been queried 44,906 times Custom Tab TF2 Server has been queried 4,939 times Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Or perhaps it is working exactly as intended. :) On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Steven Hartland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very interesting little experiment there Spencer. Clearly shows that custom servers tab isn't working at all, never will. The guys at valve really need to admit it was a mistake and focus effort on something that will facilitate their original goals without hurting the community like the current implementation. Stats where I viewed showed a 10 to 1 ratio of potential players:- Internet Tab TF2 Server has been queried 44,906 times Custom Tab TF2 Server has been queried 4,939 times Regards Steve ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Steven Hartland wrote: - Original Message - From: Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. Sounds like you have a misconception about how this works. Ok.. What is my misconception? Where am I in error? 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. EXACTLY!! I have the feeling you are saying exactly for different reasons then I am stating the fact for. Perhaps you can clarify please? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
- Original Message - From: Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. Sounds like you have a misconception about how this works. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. EXACTLY!! This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
1. Yes, so let's get rid of the custom tab and just delist custom servers. That is, after all, what you are saying. Nobody wants to play custom servers. I guess that's why I receive enough donations from players to cover 65-70% of my server costs each month. Because no one wants to play on my 'custom' server. Right. The fact of the matter is, people are interested in custom servers. 2. Perhaps custom servers are on the internet tab as a result of the servers dying due to being 90% less visible. 3. It counts all queries, except if a player queries both servers at the same exact time (out of game browser.) I'm in this game for the long haul, the two tabs system in my opinion is setting things up for a long term failure. - voogru. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:10 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpg The only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: 1. Yes, so let's get rid of the custom tab and just delist custom servers. That is, after all, what you are saying. Nobody wants to play custom servers. I guess that's why I receive enough donations from players to cover 65-70% of my server costs each month. Because no one wants to play on my 'custom' server. I would thank you to keep this civil and not put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out a possible flaw in your logic on this. The fact of the matter is, people are interested in custom servers. Yes. That fact isn't in dispute. What I was saying is perhaps the number of people interested is less then you suspect. 2. Perhaps custom servers are on the internet tab as a result of the servers dying due to being 90% less visible. As I recall, it was only a day or so that it was tried. Barely enough time for a resonable test to see if the tab worked. It still doesn't change the fact that most custom servers can be found on the internet tab. I love custom servers, yet I don't click the custom tab. Your survey doesn't include people like me. 3. It counts all queries, except if a player queries both servers at the same exact time (out of game browser.) So what's to stop you (or someone else) from constantly hitting refresh on either side to artificially increase the score? If you doubt that someone would do this, look at the game Progress Quest I'm in this game for the long haul, the two tabs system in my opinion is setting things up for a long term failure. I'm not doubting your dedication for this game. What I am doubting is your method of proving your opinion. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpg The only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
The argument that people don't want to play on custom servers is ludicrous. You can get away with saying that about insta spawn servers because none of us can prove otherwise (you can't prove that it's the case, and we can't prove that it's not). But that's certainly not the case with 32 man servers. I'm sure the vast majority of TF2 players realize the number of slots that a server has. When 32 man servers are in the internet tab they're filling up, when they're on the custom tab they're not. What does that tell you about how people feel about 'custom' servers? What does that tell you about the impact of the custom tab? If people don't want to play on 32 man servers no one is forcing them. While you can argue that instant spawn servers lack transparency about their 'non vanilla' nature, that's not the case with 32 man servers -- it's clearly stated in the slot count! If players want to avoid 32 man servers it's rather simple, a custom tab isn't necessary to achieve that end. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Yes, so let's get rid of the custom tab and just delist custom servers. That is, after all, what you are saying. Nobody wants to play custom servers. I guess that's why I receive enough donations from players to cover 65-70% of my server costs each month. Because no one wants to play on my 'custom' server. Right. The fact of the matter is, people are interested in custom servers. 2. Perhaps custom servers are on the internet tab as a result of the servers dying due to being 90% less visible. 3. It counts all queries, except if a player queries both servers at the same exact time (out of game browser.) I'm in this game for the long haul, the two tabs system in my opinion is setting things up for a long term failure. - voogru. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:10 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
You can't post stats if the facts you base them on are incomplete. Not sure what you're doing different, but I have many more than 132 servers in my Custom tab. As of 11:55AM EST, I have 630 servers in the Custom tab. Maybe there's a problem with your Steam install or another issue on your end. We all know how to use the tab system, and as far as I can tell by the amount of full servers that I see right now, when I say we, I don't mean I. Honestly, just try to adhere by the guidelines set by Valve for a week and see how it goes. But it's going to take the effort of ALL the server admins, not just a few. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Yes, so let's get rid of the custom tab and just delist custom servers. That is, after all, what you are saying. Nobody wants to play custom servers. I guess that's why I receive enough donations from players to cover 65-70% of my server costs each month. Because no one wants to play on my 'custom' server. Right. The fact of the matter is, people are interested in custom servers. 2. Perhaps custom servers are on the internet tab as a result of the servers dying due to being 90% less visible. 3. It counts all queries, except if a player queries both servers at the same exact time (out of game browser.) I'm in this game for the long haul, the two tabs system in my opinion is setting things up for a long term failure. - voogru. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:10 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
The second server in the list of the screen is one of my own servers ... i have two 32 slot TF2 servers in the custom tab. they were full 24/7 (really 24/7) before the custom tab was released ... now they are full the most time, too ... but both servers are empty at the night... at the morning it's hard to fill them up again ... im am sure, without my big community both servers would die... (and i would stop supporting valve's games) the custom tab itself is the WORST idea i have EVER seen ... it's valve's biggest fault! i am not amused ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:36 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpg The only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
I would thank you to keep this civil and not put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out a possible flaw in your logic on this. Well, if the tabs system is advanced, there probably won't be custom servers to go to in 6 months. Servers need traffic to survive. If a player would like to filter me out, that's fine with me. But that should only be if the player filters me out with the filter options. If all of the servers showed up on one tab, and had the filtering options available from the custom tab, tags being on the server queries would attract players. And players who don't care can still see my server (although they can see it has tags). I want players who want custom servers, to be able to find me. I want players who want standard servers, to be able to filter me out. - We don't want these players! They just disconnect anyway! I want players who do not care, to be able to see my server and make a decision based on the tags my server has on it. That's all we want. So what's to stop you (or someone else) from constantly hitting refresh on either side to artificially increase the score? If you doubt that someone would do this, look at the game Progress Quest I have made the page show query spammers. These are usually game-monitor/gamespy/myspace (wtf?!) If I see a single IP with hundreds of queries and it's a player who is trying to stain the stats I can remove them. I made two brand new servers for this experiment, so the servers are not really public and they are named something random. What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) 2PM EST -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:53 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpg The only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
FUCK FACE STOP WRITE From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 12:20:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I would thank you to keep this civil and not put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out a possible flaw in your logic on this. Well, if the tabs system is advanced, there probably won't be custom servers to go to in 6 months. Servers need traffic to survive. If a player would like to filter me out, that's fine with me. But that should only be if the player filters me out with the filter options. If all of the servers showed up on one tab, and had the filtering options available from the custom tab, tags being on the server queries would attract players. And players who don't care can still see my server (although they can see it has tags). I want players who want custom servers, to be able to find me. I want players who want standard servers, to be able to filter me out. - We don't want these players! They just disconnect anyway! I want players who do not care, to be able to see my server and make a decision based on the tags my server has on it. That's all we want. So what's to stop you (or someone else) from constantly hitting refresh on either side to artificially increase the score? If you doubt that someone would do this, look at the game Progress Quest I have made the page show query spammers. These are usually game-monitor/gamespy/myspace (wtf?!) If I see a single IP with hundreds of queries and it's a player who is trying to stain the stats I can remove them. I made two brand new servers for this experiment, so the servers are not really public and they are named something random. What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) 2PM EST -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:53 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :)Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpgThe only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday.-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom TabI wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab.So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players.You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes.Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better.On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
What a swell guy! I might as well add to this. Valve, if you are so confident in the two tab system, unleash it to CS:S and hire a team of people to moderate the list and force custom CS:S servers to the custom tab. (or some automated way of detecting game play plug-ins) Watch the outrage then. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sebastian Hilding Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:27 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab FUCK FACE STOP WRITE From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 12:20:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I would thank you to keep this civil and not put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out a possible flaw in your logic on this. Well, if the tabs system is advanced, there probably won't be custom servers to go to in 6 months. Servers need traffic to survive. If a player would like to filter me out, that's fine with me. But that should only be if the player filters me out with the filter options. If all of the servers showed up on one tab, and had the filtering options available from the custom tab, tags being on the server queries would attract players. And players who don't care can still see my server (although they can see it has tags). I want players who want custom servers, to be able to find me. I want players who want standard servers, to be able to filter me out. - We don't want these players! They just disconnect anyway! I want players who do not care, to be able to see my server and make a decision based on the tags my server has on it. That's all we want. So what's to stop you (or someone else) from constantly hitting refresh on either side to artificially increase the score? If you doubt that someone would do this, look at the game Progress Quest I have made the page show query spammers. These are usually game-monitor/gamespy/myspace (wtf?!) If I see a single IP with hundreds of queries and it's a player who is trying to stain the stats I can remove them. I made two brand new servers for this experiment, so the servers are not really public and they are named something random. What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) 2PM EST -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:53 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :)Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpgThe only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab.So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players.You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better.On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Some people just cant read. You know how on the bottom of every email it tells you how to unsubscribe? Well some people are so stupid they think if they mail the entire list and act like they are 12 it will work. Sometimes it does, but in this case it probably wont =p Idiots. People like Sebastian are the reason some people should not be allowed to procreate. Leonard L. Church wrote: No need to get hostile. Am I doing something to upset you? Sebastian Hilding wrote: FUCK FACE STOP WRITE ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
I think that screenshot looks a bit off?? The few times ive played TF2 (at around 11pm GMT) there have been a good few more full servers on the custom tab. TBH I quite like the custom tab: it could be a bit more obvious but meh.. Tom -- From: Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:36 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpg The only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
In all honesty this evangelism - whilst good to see - isn't going to do much. Valve want servers that are customised (for reasons they have already given - and fair reasons at that, even if not what all the server admins would agree with) separate or separately tagged. This is their solution. W'ere gonna have to live with it my 2p ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
That is fair as well. What you are missing however is that they CAN see it. Just not in the default list. 90% of players do not click the custom tab, therefore, they will not see my server. It's fair for valve to ask that indifferent players play their first game on vanilla servers. It's also fair to set the default to vanilla as well (better base of players to balance maps and such). Let players decide what they want to play. Show them all of the servers at once and have the tags visible. Hell, they can put a custom icon next to custom servers that when a player hovers over it, it shows a list of tags. What is important is that indifferent players see our servers! Don't forget, that custom game play mods that do not append tags will still be on the internet list without the server admin doing anything. That server admin can either be ignorant about the tags, or decide not to append the tags cause of the traffic issue. The resule? Custom servers can still appear in the internet list without admins doing anything evil. What if I add a grapple hook? Does valve tell me I have to use sv_tags? Ok. So by hand, you do this? What is your standard for determining if someone is doing this? Have you seen my queries page? http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php If you query either of my servers over 100 times, your IP address will be up top with how many times you have queried my server. I have used new IP addresses for the servers and I am trying to hide them in the list to prevent someone from staining the stats either way. - voogru. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:36 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: I would thank you to keep this civil and not put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out a possible flaw in your logic on this. Well, if the tabs system is advanced, there probably won't be custom servers to go to in 6 months. There will always be custom servers as long as there are players who want it. I hereby make this promise. If, in 6 months, there is no more custom servers, I'll put my own up out of my own pocket. As many as needed to meet the demand. and I accept your apology. :) I want players who want custom servers, to be able to find me. That is fair. I want players who want standard servers, to be able to filter me out. - We don't want these players! They just disconnect anyway! So is this. I want players who do not care, to be able to see my server and make a decision based on the tags my server has on it. That is fair as well. What you are missing however is that they CAN see it. Just not in the default list. It's fair for valve to ask that indifferent players play their first game on vanilla servers. It's also fair to set the default to vanilla as well (better base of players to balance maps and such). That's all we want. That is fair and reasonable. All the points are already given to you. So what's to stop you (or someone else) from constantly hitting refresh on either side to artificially increase the score? If you doubt that someone would do this, look at the game Progress Quest I have made the page show query spammers. These are usually game-monitor/gamespy/myspace (wtf?!) If I see a single IP with hundreds of queries and it's a player who is trying to stain the stats I can remove them. Ok. So by hand, you do this? What is your standard for determining if someone is doing this? What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) 2PM EST What day? I would assume Easter Sunday at 2pm is different then .. well.. today in 1 and a half hour. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Imagine trying to start a new custom community. Bloody impossible. From rank 2... to 50 or so. http://www.game-monitor.com/tf2_GameServer/87.106.10.138:27019/httpwww.saign s.de_2FORT_ONLY_FAST_RESPAWN-History.html From rank 1... to 65 http://www.game-monitor.com/tf2_GameServer/87.106.10.138:27017/httpwww.saign s.de_DUSTBOWL_ONLY_FAST_RESPAWN-History.html And still climbing. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Grimm Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:16 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab The second server in the list of the screen is one of my own servers ... i have two 32 slot TF2 servers in the custom tab. they were full 24/7 (really 24/7) before the custom tab was released ... now they are full the most time, too ... but both servers are empty at the night... at the morning it's hard to fill them up again ... im am sure, without my big community both servers would die... (and i would stop supporting valve's games) the custom tab itself is the WORST idea i have EVER seen ... it's valve's biggest fault! i am not amused ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:36 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. http://www.voogru.com/images/customtab.jpg The only full server is an illegal nosteam server. This screenshot was taken yesterday. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:31 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: I would thank you to keep this civil and not put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out a possible flaw in your logic on this. Well, if the tabs system is advanced, there probably won't be custom servers to go to in 6 months. There will always be custom servers as long as there are players who want it. I hereby make this promise. If, in 6 months, there is no more custom servers, I'll put my own up out of my own pocket. As many as needed to meet the demand. and I accept your apology. :) I want players who want custom servers, to be able to find me. That is fair. I want players who want standard servers, to be able to filter me out. - We don't want these players! They just disconnect anyway! So is this. I want players who do not care, to be able to see my server and make a decision based on the tags my server has on it. That is fair as well. What you are missing however is that they CAN see it. Just not in the default list. It's fair for valve to ask that indifferent players play their first game on vanilla servers. It's also fair to set the default to vanilla as well (better base of players to balance maps and such). That's all we want. That is fair and reasonable. All the points are already given to you. So what's to stop you (or someone else) from constantly hitting refresh on either side to artificially increase the score? If you doubt that someone would do this, look at the game Progress Quest I have made the page show query spammers. These are usually game-monitor/gamespy/myspace (wtf?!) If I see a single IP with hundreds of queries and it's a player who is trying to stain the stats I can remove them. Ok. So by hand, you do this? What is your standard for determining if someone is doing this? What time of the day was this taken? What was the date? I suspect if it was 4am on easter night... You may have a point. :) 2PM EST What day? I would assume Easter Sunday at 2pm is different then .. well.. today in 1 and a half hour. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: That is fair as well. What you are missing however is that they CAN see it. Just not in the default list. 90% of players do not click the custom tab, therefore, they will not see my server. We already discussed why your numbers are off. Your 90% I assume is coming from your stats page. It's fair for valve to ask that indifferent players play their first game on vanilla servers. It's also fair to set the default to vanilla as well (better base of players to balance maps and such). Let players decide what they want to play. Show them all of the servers at once and have the tags visible. Hell, they can put a custom icon next to custom servers that when a player hovers over it, it shows a list of tags. They do have that choice. I just don't think it's fair that people have populated the wrong tab, therefore, removing choice from those who don't want to play on custom servers. What is important is that indifferent players see our servers! Why? I thought you didn't want indifferent players? Don't forget, that custom game play mods that do not append tags will still be on the internet list without the server admin doing anything. That server admin can either be ignorant about the tags, or decide not to append the tags cause of the traffic issue. The resule? Custom servers can still appear in the internet list without admins doing anything evil. That is a fault I will agree with you with. Server Admins who are blacklisted because of ignorance need to be able to fix the issue and be unblacklisted. What if I add a grapple hook? Does valve tell me I have to use sv_tags? I believe they said that in a previous email. Ok. So by hand, you do this? What is your standard for determining if someone is doing this? Have you seen my queries page? http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php Yes. I saw it. Hence why I am commenting on it. If you query either of my servers over 100 times, your IP address will be up top with how many times you have queried my server. So what is your standard? That was the question. If it shows up 20 times.. Is that to much? 10? 5? 50? What about timespan? I admit, it's an extreme case, but what if I'm one of the few people online at 3am and I refresh a few times. Does that remove me from the list because you see more then 1 in a row? Without rules on what you consider spamming, you are appearing to say, Whatever I want to consider spamming, I will and remove those results. This is not a proper way to conduct this sort of test. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
We tried that already... All of us did... Some for minutes (like me) some for days or more when it just came out. Thing is it didn't work. And I could see that it wouldn't work. Ussualy when I get my servers up after update they are one of the first and fill up to 32 players in under few minutes. That did not happen. Valve missed their chance to advertise/educated about the tag before. Not that it would of worked, most are too stupid to click the other tab. Especially when the first tab is mislabeled and the other tab doesn't help much either. Internet... as in all servers right? Like on ALL THE OTHER Valve games? Apparently not... And Custom... as in... Oh ugh TF2 Racing Mode? :S On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Richard Eid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder what the stats would look like if server admins played by the rules? I know of a few great servers that continue to stay packed 24/7 despite being on the Custom tab. I'm sure people have added them into their Favorites as I have, but I play them constantly and see new players all the time. They have to be getting in somehow and I think that somehow is the Custom tab. So while everyone is forcing themselves to the overcrowded Internet tab, these couple of servers are getting the prime spotlight being the few that are atop the Custom list full with players. You all should try a Custom tab week whereby you all move your Custom servers to the correct place for a week and see how it goes. Once everyone plays by the rules, I think the system would work much better. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leonard L. Church [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps there is another possible reason. 1) Perhaps people are not interested in custom servers as much as you may think. 2) Perhaps people don't move to the custom tag because most all of the custom servers are in the internet tab currently. 3) Your test environment is flawed. When the game starts up and you click on find servers, it defaults to the internet tab. This means if someone wants to go to the custom tab, they HAVE to go to the internet tab as well. Please delete the total of the custom queries from the internet total. Then, what about refreshes? Are you only allowing 1 hit from a specific IP within a certain timeframe? What is that timeframe? If not, why do you allow refreshes to count on either tab? Not trying to say it isn't revealing what your page shows... Just saying that it may not be revealing what you expect. Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: Yesterday I decided to do an experiment. I have made 2 experimental servers. These servers are brand new and have never been played on. They will not be in anyone's favorites or HLSW viewer. They are not real servers and will not accept incoming connections. One of the servers is on the Internet Tab. The other one is on the Custom Tab. Since the out of game server browser does not have a Custom Tab, all servers are displayed on that. Since I really only want to count the queries made by the in-game browser so I am filtering out queries if someone queries both servers at the same exact time, some can leak through but I don't think that will affect the stats too much. http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php This page is in real time and can be refreshed to receive instant updates. At of the time of this writing, the custom tab servers receive about a 90% reduction in queries, even after players have had the little message explaining the custom tab. I wish I would have started this experiment sooner. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
No need to get hostile. Am I doing something to upset you? Sebastian Hilding wrote: FUCK FACE STOP WRITE ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
We already discussed why your numbers are off. Your 90% I assume is coming from your stats page. I can never win can I? First they say You don't have proof So I take the effort to collect proof. Then they say Your proof is flawed If my proof is flawed, run your own experiment to counter mine. I make my proof available and easy to access. Why? I thought you didn't want indifferent players? I don't want players on my server who dislike fast respawn, or dislike 30 player servers. My server shows up as a 30 player server, so players who don't like 30 player servers, probably won't join it. My servers have fast respawn in the hostname, so players who don't like fast respawn, probably won't join it. The indifferent players, just want to play. I want those players to see my server. If they see my server hostname, and decide to play on it, they know what they are getting into because my servers hostname is being used in place of the tagging system. My servers still fill up even with the hostname/maxplayers screaming out what I have changed. Now if I do the same thing but go one tab over, suddenly my server dies. I don't have players joining my servers complaining OMGWTF this is fast respawn! Lame! I'm leaving!. So what is your standard? That was the question. If it shows up 20 times.. Is that to much? 10? 5? 50? What about timespan? I admit, it's an extreme case, but what if I'm one of the few people online at 3am and I refresh a few times. Does that remove me from the list because you see more then 1 in a row? 100 queries = reported on page. These numbers are still used in the overall totals. This number may be increased as the experiment goes on. The only queries I ignore are if both servers are queried at the same exact time. If that is the case the person used the out of game steam browser. I blatantly report that on the page indicating that I am removing that number from the totals. I believe they said that in a previous email. They said if server admins try to bypass the tags, I took this as forcefully removing tags. Not just failing to report custom mods. It would be unfair for an admin unaware of the whole issue to be delisted because of it. Can you imagine the manpower needed to moderate the server list? Does valve really want to deal with finding 'custom' servers on the internet tab and delisting people? Don't they have better things to do? - voogru. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:08 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: That is fair as well. What you are missing however is that they CAN see it. Just not in the default list. 90% of players do not click the custom tab, therefore, they will not see my server. We already discussed why your numbers are off. Your 90% I assume is coming from your stats page. It's fair for valve to ask that indifferent players play their first game on vanilla servers. It's also fair to set the default to vanilla as well (better base of players to balance maps and such). Let players decide what they want to play. Show them all of the servers at once and have the tags visible. Hell, they can put a custom icon next to custom servers that when a player hovers over it, it shows a list of tags. They do have that choice. I just don't think it's fair that people have populated the wrong tab, therefore, removing choice from those who don't want to play on custom servers. What is important is that indifferent players see our servers! Why? I thought you didn't want indifferent players? Don't forget, that custom game play mods that do not append tags will still be on the internet list without the server admin doing anything. That server admin can either be ignorant about the tags, or decide not to append the tags cause of the traffic issue. The resule? Custom servers can still appear in the internet list without admins doing anything evil. That is a fault I will agree with you with. Server Admins who are blacklisted because of ignorance need to be able to fix the issue and be unblacklisted. What if I add a grapple hook? Does valve tell me I have to use sv_tags? I believe they said that in a previous email. Ok. So by hand, you do this? What is your standard for determining if someone is doing this? Have you seen my queries page? http://www.voogru.com/server/queries.php Yes. I saw it. Hence why I am commenting on it. If you query either of my servers over 100 times, your IP address will be up top with how many times you have queried my server. So what is your standard? That was the question. If it shows up 20 times.. Is that to much? 10? 5? 50? What about timespan? I admit, it's an extreme case, but what if I'm one of the few people online at 3am and I refresh a few times. Does that remove me from
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: We already discussed why your numbers are off. Your 90% I assume is coming from your stats page. I can never win can I? First they say You don't have proof So I take the effort to collect proof. Then they say Your proof is flawed If my proof is flawed, run your own experiment to counter mine. I make my proof available and easy to access. I would love to. But I can't. I will say that your proof is probably the best we can get outside of valve. But that still doesn't mean that it is not flawed for the reasons I named. It just can't be used for proof. Why? I thought you didn't want indifferent players? I don't want players on my server who dislike fast respawn, or dislike 30 player servers. My mistake then. Indifferent you want. hating your options, you don't. So what is your standard? That was the question. If it shows up 20 times.. Is that to much? 10? 5? 50? What about timespan? I admit, it's an extreme case, but what if I'm one of the few people online at 3am and I refresh a few times. Does that remove me from the list because you see more then 1 in a row? 100 queries = reported on page. These numbers are still used in the overall totals. This number may be increased as the experiment goes on. The only queries I ignore are if both servers are queried at the same exact time. If that is the case the person used the out of game steam browser. I blatantly report that on the page indicating that I am removing that number from the totals. I wasn't questioning that. What I was questioning is the player who refreshes. So if you don't ignore those, what's to stop someone from refreshing the custom tab several times a minute to alter the stats? Perhaps you should remove results that take place from the same IP within 1 min? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
This is exactly one of the major problems. The names of the tabs are misleading or at least suggest something that isn't true. Also, no matter how many servers are on the custom tab, when the majority of players start looking for servers, a bunch of servers from the Internet tab are going to pop up in their face and they are going to pick one from that list without even thinking about the custom tab. After all, the player probably doesn't want to play TF2 Racing or some other heavily modified version of TF2, which is probably what the player thinks of when he or she thinks custom. I don't think most players are going to think of 32 players, HLStatsX, all talk, etc. as the type of custom Valve makes them to be. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 1nsane . Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:28 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Internet... as in all servers right? Like on ALL THE OTHER Valve games? Apparently not... And Custom... as in... Oh ugh TF2 Racing Mode? :S ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
Andreas Grimm wrote: It would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to have ONE internet tab with ALL servers, filtered by standard filters and server tags *ironic off*... it could be so easy, and what is valve doing? nothing except destroying communities :-/ I agree. Fully. Completely. :) Just as long as it defaults the first time to vanilla servers to allow new players to have that experience first before they explore custom servers. I think that's fair. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab
I will say that your proof is probably the best we can get outside of valve. I'm pretty sure valve doesn't have statistics on this issue, so it's the best we can get period, unless someone else comes up with something better. So if you don't ignore those, what's to stop someone from refreshing the custom tab several times a minute to alter the stats? They would have to sit there refreshing the list, and I would catch such a thing and remove all of their queries. They'd be wasting their time. My mistake then. Indifferent you want. hating your options, you don't. Yeah. Perhaps you should remove results that take place from the same IP within 1 min? Yes and I can do this after the fact since I keep track of the exact time of each query. If it becomes a problem, I will do it. In fact, I have just came up with a perfect way to prevent someone from abusing the stats and will be implementing it within an hour. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:46 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Internet Tab VS Custom Tab Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald wrote: We already discussed why your numbers are off. Your 90% I assume is coming from your stats page. I can never win can I? First they say You don't have proof So I take the effort to collect proof. Then they say Your proof is flawed If my proof is flawed, run your own experiment to counter mine. I make my proof available and easy to access. I would love to. But I can't. I will say that your proof is probably the best we can get outside of valve. But that still doesn't mean that it is not flawed for the reasons I named. It just can't be used for proof. Why? I thought you didn't want indifferent players? I don't want players on my server who dislike fast respawn, or dislike 30 player servers. My mistake then. Indifferent you want. hating your options, you don't. So what is your standard? That was the question. If it shows up 20 times.. Is that to much? 10? 5? 50? What about timespan? I admit, it's an extreme case, but what if I'm one of the few people online at 3am and I refresh a few times. Does that remove me from the list because you see more then 1 in a row? 100 queries = reported on page. These numbers are still used in the overall totals. This number may be increased as the experiment goes on. The only queries I ignore are if both servers are queried at the same exact time. If that is the case the person used the out of game steam browser. I blatantly report that on the page indicating that I am removing that number from the totals. I wasn't questioning that. What I was questioning is the player who refreshes. So if you don't ignore those, what's to stop someone from refreshing the custom tab several times a minute to alter the stats? Perhaps you should remove results that take place from the same IP within 1 min? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
