Re: [Hornlist] Good Non-Conns
Are you saying that the Alex takes twice as much effort as the 8D? Normally I would recommend the Reynolds Chambers clone of the 8D because of its great tone and especially for its high efficiency. If you're leaning towards an Alex, there is a very rare, and mostly unknown, Holton model 77 presently on eBay that might well go for less than $500. This is the original Farkas model from the sixties. This horn would fit into a Geyer section and be very effective for ensemble playing. Hang on to the 8D in case you have to play in a 'big' horn section. The trick to easily switching horns is to spend a lot of time tuning all the valve combinations so the lipping requirements are as close as possible on the two horns. Don't be surprised if you suddenly find your accuracy greatly improved on the horn you've been playing for years. You might be surprised how out of tune you've learned to accommodate through years of practice. Do it with an electronic tuner sensitive enough to tell you exactly how far you're lipping each note to be in tune. Center each note with your eyes closed so you can see exactly where the horn wants to play it. This is especially important for matching a Bb horn or descant horn to your main instrument. For the Bb or descant, an F attachment is more important than a stopping valve. Have a crook made However, a stopping valve is a legitimate 2nd valve when using the F attachment. Steven Slaff wrote on 9/7/2004, 5:40 PM: Hello, Partially with the advice of my teacher, I am considering purchasing a new horn -- My current Conn 8D really isn't cutting it. What horns do you all recommend that have a big and mellow, yet clear sound, but play well -- I'm looking for something with a bit more resistance than my current Conn, I've tried playing my teacher's Alex, and when I blow into that it takes half the effort to make the same sound on my Conn!!! Any recommendations are appreciated! Thanks very much!!! Steven Slaff - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:30 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Elkhart Conn 8d or Yamaha 667V or Alexander 103 I'm trying to decide on which horn I'll be purchasing in the near future and was wondering what all of your opinions are on these particular horns. I know they are about as opposite as you can get, but I've played on newer Conn 8Ds and a Yamaha 867(similar to 667V), and liked how they both played. The Yamaha was a free-blowing horn that played very nicely I thought. The Conns played well, but I'm interested in trying an older Elkhart model to see if there is a bigger difference in the playing characteristics. If any of you have had any experience with playing the newer and older 8Ds and what their differences are, please write in. I've never played an Alexander 103, but I do know that they are a reputable horn in Europe and the sound that the European horn sections produce using them, is quite satisfactory.To give you a little bit of background info on where I currently stand as a horn player, here ya go: I'm a senior in high school, and will be attending one of the major southeastern universities next year to most likely major in music. I do play principal horn in the local youth orchestra and principal horn in the wind symphony at Sebastian River High School in Sebastian, FL. So this horn will need to last me through my college years and hopefully into my amateur/professional career. Any advice on any horn would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jason ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steven.slaff%40oberlin.edu ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Eastman horn - a review
In a message dated 9/7/2004 9:32:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I recently purchased a Paul Eastman horn from an E-bay seller. I paid $808 including shipping. I spent a week with Walt Lawson and Co. earlier in August working on various projects, one of which was to analyze the Chinese made instrument. Here is a review. Mr. Betts's review is interesting from my perspective. I tried one of these horns new a couple years back, and all of the problem noted in the review were exactly the same problems noted on the horn I received then. At least they seem to be consistent. From my perspective, I have trouble investing the time in an instrument which, when finished as noted in the review, will still be an Eastman horn and would have to compete price-wise with other such horns, new. To sell one new for as much as $400 or $500 over similar horns is dicey business. However, if a horn can be made good (or at least good enough) without much work, then it might be a good investment. All good investments come with some risk, and I think the risk is that you might get one that doesn't play well even after finishing work. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited, Inc. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Good Non-Conns
william bamberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Are you saying that the Alex takes twice as much effort as the 8D? No, that's not what I'm saying! Sorry I wasn't clear about that! What I meant was exactly the opposite, that the 8D takes twice as much effort as the Alex, especially in the high range because it has remarkably little resistance. Steven Slaff - Original Message - From: william bamberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:16 am Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Good Non-Conns Are you saying that the Alex takes twice as much effort as the 8D? Normally I would recommend the Reynolds Chambers clone of the 8D because of its great tone and especially for its high efficiency. If you're leaning towards an Alex, there is a very rare, and mostly unknown, Holton model 77 presently on eBay that might well go for less than $500. This is the original Farkas model from the sixties. This horn would fit into a Geyer section and be very effective for ensemble playing. Hang on to the 8D in case you have to play in a 'big' horn section. The trick to easily switching horns is to spend a lot of time tuning all the valve combinations so the lipping requirements are as close as possible on the two horns. Don't be surprised if you suddenly find your accuracy greatly improved on the horn you've been playing for years. You might be surprised how out of tune you've learned to accommodate through years of practice. Do it with an electronic tuner sensitive enough to tell you exactly how far you're lipping each note to be in tune. Center each note with your eyes closed so you can see exactly where the horn wants to play it. This is especially important for matching a Bb horn or descant horn to your main instrument. For the Bb or descant, an F attachment is more important than a stopping valve. Have a crook made However, a stopping valve is a legitimate 2nd valve when using the F attachment. Steven Slaff wrote on 9/7/2004, 5:40 PM: Hello, Partially with the advice of my teacher, I am considering purchasing a new horn -- My current Conn 8D really isn't cutting it. What horns do you all recommend that have a big and mellow, yet clear sound, but play well -- I'm looking for something with a bit more resistance than my current Conn, I've tried playing my teacher's Alex, and when I blow into that it takes half the effort to make the same sound on my Conn!!! Any recommendations are appreciated! Thanks very much!!! Steven Slaff - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:30 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Elkhart Conn 8d or Yamaha 667V or Alexander 103 I'm trying to decide on which horn I'll be purchasing in the near future and was wondering what all of your opinions are on these particular horns. I know they are about as opposite as you can get, but I've played on newer Conn 8Ds and a Yamaha 867(similar to 667V), and liked how they both played. The Yamaha was a free-blowing horn that played very nicely I thought. The Conns played well, but I'm interested in trying an older Elkhart model to see if there is a bigger difference in the playing characteristics. If any of you have had any experience with playing the newer and older 8Ds and what their differences are, please write in. I've never played an Alexander 103, but I do know that they are a reputable horn in Europe and the sound that the European horn sections produce using them, is quite satisfactory.To give you a little bit of background info on where I currently stand as a horn player, here ya go: I'm a senior in high school, and will be attending one of the major southeastern universities next year to most likely major in music. I do play principal horn in the local youth orchestra and principal horn in the wind symphony at Sebastian River High School in Sebastian, FL. So this horn will need to last me through my college years and hopefully into my amateur/professional career. Any advice on any horn would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jason ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steven.slaff%40oberlin.edu ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steven.slaff%40oberlin.edu ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Good Non-Conns
The term 'free blowing' has become the mantra of brasswind design. At a recent NAMM show he tried all the new top level horns he could. Many from quality makers have become so free blowing it is very difficult to play anything but loud. My experience with the 8D is confined to Elkhart horns, and they all seem to play quite well. My only concern with 8Ds in general is that the extremely thin metal makes them quite inefficient. Tribal myth attributes the effort needed to play an 8D to the fact that the horn is 'big'. Any quality 8D clone will feel much smaller. The only horn I have that feels bigger than my Elkhart 8D is my antique Enders compensator. It has a bell throat much larger than the 8D, but is so lightweight it is only capable of playing about half as loud as a big modern horn. It is the perfect pit horn. 8Ds do record well, and there's a lot to be gained by having an entire section with matched instrument. How do the newer 8Ds compare with the Elkhart horns? Are they still using the extremely thin metal? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Eastman horn - a review
Russ writes: About the Paul Eastman horn's valve tolerance, Kendall wrote ... they were at .003, about the same as Holton. ... Is that a radial measurement? At what tolerance does a valve's inability to seal (with a film of a 'normal' oil) become problematic? Russ Smiley (an engineer, but not a machinist) Marlborough, CT The measurement is the distance between the rotor and casing. As to the other question, this is right at the borderline to using heavier oil. At about .006, I think a valve job is in the works. Maybe Walter can elaborate on this if he reads it. KB ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Ken Pope Email Address
Hello, horniacs! Anyone out there know the email address of Ken Pope? Thanks in advance! jly [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] 8 Bayreuther Festspieler Hornisten
Message text written by The Horn List G. Seifert, M. Klier, S. Machata, K. Markowski, B. Garbage, G. Fritzsche, K. Schneider, J. Schreder Dear All This is indeed a fantastic disc! Barry Garbage was a fellow student with me at the Northern School of Music in Manchester in 1966/67. I remember doing an amateur date with him in Hyde starting with the 'Oberon' overture; for some reason the 1st horn did not turn up and the conductor came onto the stage behind us and whispered what are you going to do? As I recall, Barry did it superbly well. I understand that he was playing in Mannheim but has now retired (many of my generation are doing that now!) Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks - UK) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ken Pope Email Address
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or check here: http://www.poperepair.com/ Wishing all well, Bryan Doughty BVD Press 79 Meetinghouse Lane Ledyard, CT 06339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 860 536-2185 http://www.bvdpress.com/ Hello, horniacs! Anyone out there know the email address of Ken Pope? Thanks in advance! jly [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bvdpress%40snet.net -- ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Elkhart Conn 8D Yamaha 667V or Alexander 103
I've only played a little on the last two but I know you have to watch it with the Elkhart Conns. They are great horns, when you find one that is in good condition. I've seen many that have just been played forever and are in need of a good bit of service. Another horn that I would recommend along the lines of a Conn 8D is a Kruspe Horner. I have a prewar model and I love it. Would be hard to find one, but if you can try it out. Beautiful sound. Good luck! Michael Moore ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Good non-Conns
Is it possible that some issues with resistance and such can be solved with a mouthpiece switch? Just before entering college this year I was unhappy with my 8D. I was advised to switch mouthpieces with my instructor and am now doing fine. Just a thought. Michael ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Elkhart Conn 8d or Yamaha 667V or Alexander 103
Hi, I currently play and have played for years on a Yamaha 668. I love my horn, but a few years back I was in the market for another one. I came really close to buying an Alex 103, but did not because I was told by my teacher at the time (a well-reputed teacher at an American conservatory) that I would have a hard time getting a job in the US with that horn, even though I sounded great on it. So, I would recommend that if you plan to stay in the US and this is a horn that you would like to use professionally that you stick with a Yamaha (which is closer to playing like an Alex) or a Conn 8D. It just really depends on your preference. I would also take a look at Paxman horns, if you can afford it. Good Luck!!! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying to decide on which horn I'll be purchasing in the near future and was wondering what all of your opinions are on these particular horns. I know they are about as opposite as you can get, but I've played on newer Conn 8Ds and a Yamaha 867(similar to 667V), and liked how they both played. The Yamaha was a free-blowing horn that played very nicely I thought. The Conns played well, but I'm interested in trying an older Elkhart model to see if there is a bigger difference in the playing characteristics. If any of you have had any experience with playing the newer and older 8Ds and what their differences are, please write in. I've never played an Alexander 103, but I do know that they are a reputable horn in Europe and the sound that the European horn sections produce using them, is quite satisfactory.To give you a little bit of background info on where I currently stand as a horn player, here ya go: I'm a senior in high school, and will be attending one of the major southeastern universities next year to most likely major in music. I do play principal horn in the local youth orchestra and principal horn in the wind symphony at Sebastian River High School in Sebastian, FL. So this horn will need to last me through my college years and hopefully into my amateur/professional career. Any advice on any horn would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jason ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jkrewhorn%40yahoo.com ___ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Eastman horn - a review
My experience is that if I can't trap a .002 tapered Starrat feeler gauge between the rotor and the casing before tightening the bearings, I won't get usable compression with any reasonable weight oil. That translates to .001 clearance for a well centered rotor. The only rotors I've ever seen with the clearances in the .003 range were from leaving them in the acid dip too long. Surely there is a professional out there who has measured compression vs. clearance who will be glad to share this information. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
Perhaps before you go thru the valve disassembly cleaning process, you could demonstrate how to do a basic 'valve rinse' using lightweight valve oil or UltraPure unscented Lamp Oil as a way to flush-out sluggish valves. - It sure is alot safer for a non-technician horn player to do a valve rinse than trying a full cleaning - especially if the only problem is sluggish valve action due to old oil/grease build-up. - For the full cleaning, I suggest to only work on 1 valve at a time, that way parts don't get swapped, and there are intact valves to show how they are supposed to be re-assembled... Jay Kosta Endwell NY amateur player, non-technician ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
The only difficulty with this is that I won't have a running tap or infinite s upply of water. Whatever liquids I have will be whatever I can carry in a bucket from the bathroom to the classroom. I used to do light oil rinses on my horn, but I got marginal results at best. Most of the time the oil did not mix well with the valve oil that I use, and many times the oil gummed up, or attracted even more dirt than I wanted. Also, sometimes the oil mixed lightly with the 'condensation', and made the water even more impossible to get out. Even for those that cannot take the valve apart though, a soap and water rinse every month should theoretically yield good results. The only problem, obviously, is that water can sometimes accumulate inside the valve casing between the bearing plate and the valve itself. And, sometimes the only way to remove it is to remove it by hand or remove all the slides and let everything air dry on its own. But even letting it air dry for a day should get rid of the hidden water there. I've heard many times that oil rinses are good, or that even dropping oil into the leadpipe every now and then yields good results. However, personally, I've never had positive results with it. Why oil the rest of the horn when you only need to oil the valves? :) Also, if you've got an oil/grease buildup that's causing a problem, sometimes you need to break down the oil (i.e. soap and water) in order to get any results. And yes, soap breaks the surface tension of water, which allows for it to more easily wash away oil and grease. Once the water dries, you've got a clean slate. Good luck trying to match oils which rinse each other out. There are a thousand types of valve/rotary oils out there, and most of them are different chemical compounds. Lamp oil will sometimes gum up with some oils, like it did with me. One other consideration with this is that lamp oil is not manufactured to be used as a lubricant. No matter how 'pure' the label says the stuff is, you're still buying oil that is cheap enough to be sold for a few dollars for 24 ounces of the stuff. Even Blue Juice (which I recommend against) is sold for about 10 dollars for a 16 ounce bottle, and the highest quality oils are even more expensive. Lamp oil is manufactured to burn. Valve oil is designed as a lubricant. That's why a good small bottle of Hetman Synthetic or Rika oil will cost as much as it does. You get what you pay for. Anyone else had marginal results with oil rinsing by the way? Back to the labelling of the parts, most valves are generally labelled 1, 2, 3, 0, etc. as well as most bearing plates on most horns. If they're not labelled, it's usually a good idea to label them with a small mark somewhere on the bottom of the valve away from any bearing plate. I always take all the valves out at once rather than one at a time. All the valves get taken out, and I know exactly where each valve should go. Besides, why do eight cycles with the ultrasonic cleaner (two for each valve?) when it's far simpler to do just two? I've done this many many times. Since I've only got one hour to do a cleaning, it's much quicker to take all the valves out and put them back in. -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 4:35:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps before you go thru the valve disassembly cleaning process, you could demonstrate how to do a basic 'valve rinse' using lightweight valve oil or UltraPure unscented Lamp Oil as a way to flush-out sluggish valves. - It sure is alot safer for a non-technician horn player to do a valve rinse than trying a full cleaning - especially if the only problem is sluggish valve action due to old oil/grease build-up. - For the full cleaning, I suggest to only work on 1 valve at a time, that way parts don't get swapped, and there are intact valves to show how they are supposed to be re-assembled... Jay Kosta Endwell NY amateur player, non-technician ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] horns on the march
Gary has rejoined us on the yahoo list...You should find several very recent postings from him there. The Jack Attack! (who has felt the pain of the Marine Musician) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 6:35:26 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For the full cleaning, I suggest to only work on 1 valve at a time, that way parts don't get swapped, and there are intact valves to show how they are supposed to be re-assembled... Most valves are numbered, as are the bearing plates. Yamaha marks each rotor and bp with a corresponding dot/dots, and the one Eastman horn I had the displeasure of working on had no markings of any sort. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
Yup. Most of the cheaper valves that are not numbered are usually brass. Brass is soft, and a small mark can easily be made with the business end of a steel screwdriver. -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 6:49:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most valves are numbered, as are the bearing plates. Yamaha marks each rotor and bp with a corresponding dot/dots, and the one Eastman horn I had the displeasure of working on had no markings of any sort. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 7:27:05 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why oil the rest of the horn when you only need to oil the valves? If you ever remove an old branch or tuning slide bow and cut it with a saw, you can see just how green and corroded the inside can get. A light film of oil will protect the inside of the tubing from being eaten away by acids. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 7:27:05 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One other consideration with this is that lamp oil is not manufactured to be used as a lubricant. No matter how 'pure' the label says the stuff is, you're still buying oil that is cheap enough to be sold for a few dollars for 24 ounces of the stuff. Most lamp oils are 100% pure, filtered, deoderized kerosene.Holton rotary oil and others, like Cass oil are also 100% pure, filtered deoderized kerosene. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 8:50:45 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yup. Most of the cheaper valves that are not numbered are usually brass. Brass is soft, and a small mark can easily be made with the business end of a steel screwdriver. Ouch! The rotors in my Meinlschmidt valve section are brass, and so was a Hill horn I recently cleaned. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horns made by the producers of the Bach line of trumpets??
Hello, any one who is listening at this time of the day!! I have an acquaintance who has been in touch with a dealer who sells french horns made by the Bach Brass Instruments manufacturer (is this still an independent brand name?) We know of their trumpets and trombones, but have no info about the horns!! I have been asked to please learn anything about this line of horns which I can discover, since my friend is not on the internet. Primarily, has anyone been using this line of instruments, personally, or has anyone been using them in any sort of a school setting?? Is there a professional model available, in a double horn, and what are the good and bad (if any) points about this line of horns?? I am not familiar with them, and you folks, with your combined wisdom, may be able to provide me with some valuable comments for this person. Thanks for your suggestions, and viewpoints!! Joe Duke ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Parts Wanted: Holton Valve bumpers (widgets that hold the bumper corks)
Could someone fill me in on a good place to order the little cork-bumper holder plates for Holton horns? If you're at all familiar with Holtons, you probably know that SOME of these horns have chintzy, pressed-steel cork holder plates that bend like Swiss cheese. Don't get me wrong; I like Swiss cheese (after all, it's made of cheese!) but not on a horn. My music professor friend here at the local college says the school has a Holton with the cheesy parts, and that just playing the horn normally will bend the bumper plates. Someone here recently mentioned that there are cast parts (as on the older horns) available, and I'd like to get some for him. Just don't know where to go to obtain a set. You can write me off-list with a recommendation if you think the list might be spammed with 50,000 replies to this. However, I don't expect that many, so perhaps someone may benefit from reading your suggested sources. Your call. Thanks, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
Well the thing is though with old horns, corrosion is often caused by neglect, not a lack of oil. Oil will dry out over time, most will anyways. That leaves anything open for rust/corrosion. If you regularly oil your valves and clean them, absolutely no dirt will build up, even if your saliva is acidic. If you keep your slides greased, you'll have no corrosion or stuck slides there. The major problem with stuck slides is that even if they were greased they must have been neglected. After all, how many times are horns neglected for a few decades after they've been thorougly cleaned? In fact if you cleaned a horn completely before storing it somewhere you may not find many corroded parts - if you pulled the slides out first anyways, washed everything with soap and water, and put one last coat of quality oil before storage. Either way, just like with automobiles, a final coat of oil on the important parts will save it from corrosion if you were to store it for a while. However of course my point was that if you're going to clean your horn you might as well get all the oil out and start from scratch. I know that my valves will get sluggish if the bearing/valve oils ever mix, and if slide grease works its way into the valves it'll progressively get worse. Moisture in the valves aren't usually a problem but I still have to manually dry them out sometimes. It reminds me of how they store automobiles. There is a lengthy process before a car can be stored for many years so that there is no corrosion and damage to it from neglect, I think. Just like an automobile, if a horn is properly stored for a lengthy period of time after it is prepared for storage it should last a while. -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 6:52:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you ever remove an old branch or tuning slide bow and cut it with a saw, you can see just how green and corroded the inside can get. A light film of oil will protect the inside of the tubing from being eaten away by acids. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
But, oil is a very complicated chemical. It's composed of thousands of organic/synthetic compounds. There are different qualities of Kerosene as well, some are obviously more pure than others. As to Holton, Al Cass oils, I don't advise using them. Holton oil dries out very rapidly, and Al Cass oil I find is intended more for piston valves, not rotary valves. Remember, piston valves don't have to worry about more than one type of oil usually. Rotary valves require two or three types of oil. I mean if all oil was the same, why don't we use good old fashioned Venezuela Crude in our horns? Or how about Motor Oil? Bottom line, and on a serious note, spending more on oil is never a bad idea. Invest in the good stuff (Hetman, Rika, etc.) because you're talking about an instrument which is your livelihood. If you buy a BMW or a Porsche, you can't throw in Sam's Club motor oil or the normal 87 octane gasoline - you have to spring for the expensive motor oil and the expensive 90+ Octane gas. A horn is the same way - you get what you pay for in terms of valve oil. Spring for the good stuff. I find that compared to Hetman Synthetics for example (yes I speak very highly of them) Lamp Oil is a cheap and sketchy alternative. -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 6:55:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most lamp oils are 100% pure, filtered, deoderized kerosene.Holton rotary oil and others, like Cass oil are also 100% pure, filtered deoderized kerosene. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
It's not that bad. All you have to do is make a few dots. One dot for the first valve, maybe a dash for the thumb valve, three for the third, etc. Brass is thankfully very soft. -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 6:57:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ouch! The rotors in my Meinlschmidt valve section are brass, and so was a Hill horn I recently cleaned. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 8:27:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've heard many times that oil rinses are good, or that even dropping oil into the leadpipe every now and then yields good results. However, personally, I've never had positive results with it. Why oil the rest of the horn when you only need to oil the valves? :) Also, if you've got an oil/grease buildup that's causing a problem, sometimes you need to break down the oil (i.e. soap and water) in order to get any results. And yes, soap breaks the surface tension of water, which allows for it to more easily wash away oil and grease. Once the water dries, you've got a clean slate. Good luck trying to match oils which rinse each other out. There are a thousand types of valve/rotary oils out there, and most of them are different chemical compounds. Lamp oil will sometimes gum up with some oils, like it did with me. We have to remember that the oil does two things: First, it provides a thin, viscous membrane between the bearing surfaces which allows the rotor to float in the bearings. That's why you get good valve action with an oiled valve. Second, the oil protects the metal from corrosion. So, the lubricant must have some important properties. It must be sufficiently viscous, and it must evaporate as slowly as possible. Oils which are sufficiently viscous, but evaporate quickly will not be as protective against corrosion. You will have to oil quite often. Oils which are not sufficiently viscous, no matter how slowly they evaporate, will not allow proper valve action. Mixing dissimilar oils can result in improper viscosity and surface tension. Oiling down the leadpipe ought only to be for protecting the leadpipe, which collects most of the water and acid from your breath. It only requires a small amount of oil. I personally am not a fan of flushing valves while in the horn. Water cannot be completely removed, and when oiled, the oil will only float on the water which is already on the rotor surface. Again, one of the goals is to protect the metal with the oil. And last, if your valves are slowing down, an oil rinse will likely only be a temporary fix. They are slowing down because of corrosion and grit. An oil rinse may remove some of the grit, but it won't remove the corrosion. It's already there. Eventually, there will be too much of either and an oil rinse won't work. If you want to work on your own valves, be sure to learn how to do it properly. Be sure the valves and casings are dry before applying oil and re-assembling. But most of all, invest time in preventive maintenance. Clean your mouth before playing, empty your horn after playing, and oil before you put it away. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/04 9:02:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and put one last coat of quality oil before storage. No, a final last coat of quality oil is not necessary or desirable. The oil will congeal and gum up and make slides and valves hard to move or to freeze. It is better to clean all of the slides off with alcohol(91%), and to wash out the valves and casings with alcohol. I have stored horns for over 5 years using this method and when I unpack them, all of the valves and slides work without any problems. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 9:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most lamp oils are 100% pure, filtered, deoderized kerosene.Holton rotary oil and others, like Cass oil are also 100% pure, filtered deoderized kerosene. I don't know all the Holton oil I've used stinks to high heaven. Filtered I will believe, but deodorized? FWIW to the list I will make my recommendation: Hetman. No other line of lubricants I've used is as comprehensive nor performs as well over the long run. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
You caught me there :) I've never stored any horns for any length of time so I assumed that was a possible solution. I suppose auto mechanics and horn storage are two separate things. Thanks! -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 9:20:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, a final last coat of quality oil is not necessary or desirable. The oil will congeal and gum up and make slides and valves hard to move or to freeze. It is better to clean all of the slides off with alcohol(91%), and to wash out the valves and casings with alcohol. I have stored horns for over 5 years using this method and when I unpack them, all of the valves and slides work without any problems. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/9/2004 12:19:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, a final last coat of quality oil is not necessary or desirable. The oil will congeal and gum up and make slides and valves hard to move or to freeze. It is better to clean all of the slides off with alcohol(91%), and to wash out the valves and casings with alcohol. I have stored horns for over 5 years using this method and when I unpack them, all of the valves and slides work without any problems. True, unless you are willing to clean your instrument and properly lubricate it before playing. The alcohol is good for dissolving the oil and drying the metal, so as long you are careful to put it away dry (and I mean dry!) then you should have no problems. A viscous oil will protect the metal, but you will risk it gumming up over time. I had a trumpet that was put away in an attic brought to me for a cleaning. It had been stored in the late 1930's! No one had touched it, but the original owner had the sense to grease it with cosmoline or some such compound. The valves had absolutely no corrosion or plating wear on them after having been stored away for over 60 years. Of course, the trumpet needed a thorough de-greasing and cleaning, but it worked like brand new once that was done. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
Very very good advise! I do agree that rinsing the horn while the valves are still in will allow water to accumulate in the open spaces between the bearing plates and the main valve. That stuff doesn't drain automatically, and in as such it's easier to just remove the valves and snake out each section and wash the inner valve casings. With oil, Dave hit a very good point which I could not so eloquently put - that when different kinds of oils mix it mixes viscosity, etc. That's one of the reasons I suppose why bearing/rotary oil should not mix? And, I'm sure that that's one of the reasons why you're not supposed to add a third 'flushing' oil to the valves unless you want the oil to mix and possibly become sluggish. What I do is I generally take out all the valves, clean them, dry them (important step) and then place them back in one at a time ensuring the oil is all on a clean coat, and that friction is reduced as much as possible and the valve seats properly. Once the valve is put in and it works flawlessly, it's time to string it and move to the next valve. Or you could string it later if the spatula assembly is not attached at the time. Great advise though, so thanks for the information :) And, by all means you should really know what you're doing if you attempt to take the valves apart - which is something I will definately cover in my class. -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 9:14:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We have to remember that the oil does two things: First, it provides a thin, viscous membrane between the bearing surfaces which allows the rotor to float in the bearings. That's why you get good valve action with an oiled valve. Second, the oil protects the metal from corrosion. So, the lubricant must have some important properties. It must be sufficiently viscous, and it must evaporate as slowly as possible. Oils which are sufficiently viscous, but evaporate quickly will not be as protective against corrosion. You will have to oil quite often. Oils which are not sufficiently viscous, no matter how slowly they evaporate, will not allow proper valve action. Mixing dissimilar oils can result in improper viscosity and surface tension. Oiling down the leadpipe ought only to be for protecting the leadpipe, which collects most of the water and acid from your breath. It only requires a small amount of oil. I personally am not a fan of flushing valves while in the horn. Water cannot be completely removed, and when oiled, the oil will only float on the water which is already on the rotor surface. Again, one of the goals is to protect the metal with the oil. And last, if your valves are slowing down, an oil rinse will likely only be a temporary fix. They are slowing down because of corrosion and grit. An oil rinse may remove some of the grit, but it won't remove the corrosion. It's already there. Eventually, there will be too much of either and an oil rinse won't work. If you want to work on your own valves, be sure to learn how to do it properly. Be sure the valves and casings are dry before applying oil and re-assembling. But most of all, invest time in preventive maintenance. Clean your mouth before playing, empty your horn after playing, and oil before you put it away. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
I forgot to comment on this. This is probably the best advice in maintenence - and something I'll definately bring into my class. I brush my teeth before every time I play the horn, and I clean my horn regularly. Another great point... thanks! -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 9:14:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But most of all, invest time in preventive maintenance. Clean your mouth before playing, empty your horn after playing, and oil before you put it away. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
Kudos to that. Hetman is the best :) -William In a message dated 9/8/2004 9:21:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: FWIW to the list I will make my recommendation: Hetman. No other line of lubricants I've used is as comprehensive nor performs as well over the long run. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Barry Garbage
Barry Garbage was a fellow student with me at the Northern School of Music in Manchester in 1966/67. I understand that he was playing in Mannheim but has now retired (many of my generation are doing that now!) Retired yes, Paul, but from Hanover's fine Niedersaechsisches Staatsorchester. Bill Melton Hauset (B) / Sinfonie Orchester Aachen (D) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
