Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


Anne & Lynn Wheeler  writes:
> 2nd hand tale of some of the competitors testimony in gov./ibm
> anti-trust trial ... all computer manufacturers knew by the late 50s
> that the single most important factor in the market place was to have a
> compatible architecture across the whole machine line ... and they
> weren't able to get all the different plant managers to toe the line
> ... different plant managers responsible for different models would do
> various optimizations for the particular technology that they were
> using. Only Watson prevailed in forcing all the plant managers
> (responbile for the different models) to toe the 360 architecture
> comptability line.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#45 360 programs on a z/10

so some number of business reporters from the auto show this week
commented that the us auto industry is making statements that they need
to be agile and adaptable to react to changing consumer preferences and
market conditions in order to compete with foreign competitors.

in the 90/91 time-frame the us auto industry had C4 task force meetings
about how to become more profitable and compete with foreign competitors
and invited some number of technology vendors to participate. they
detailed that big inhibitor was the long product cycle (from idea to
rolling off the line) of 7-8 yrs ... when the foreign competitors had
cut their cycle to 3-4 yrs and looked to be in process of cutting that
in half (18-24 months). the industry had a bunch of details on what was
needed ...  as well as looking to technology vendors for help in
improving the process as well as cutting the elapsed time. One of the
examples used was corvette design which tended to have very tight
space/size tolerances ... and between initial design and actually
starting to manufacture ... several components would have changed size
and shape ... and no longer fit (requiring expensive redesign & delay).

I chided some of the pok/mainframe attendees about it might be difficult
for them to offer advice, since at the time, they were in similar product
cycle situation.

In any case, while in the C4 meetings it was possible for them to
clearly articulate all the problems and what all the changes that were
required (including being more agile and adaptable), they didn't seem to
be actually able to do anything ... all the major stakeholders seemed to
have vested interest in preserving the status quo.

misc past posts mentioning Boyd &/or OODA-loops (OODA-loops being one of
the best paradigms for characterizing agile and adaptable ... especially
in competitive situations; in the past, I had sponsored Boyd's briefings
at IBM):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

misc. past posts mentioning C4 task force meetings:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#41 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in 
the US (was Re: American bigotry)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#43 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in 
the US (was Re: American bigotry)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#36 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#61 TGV in the USA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#22 Vintage computers are better than 
modern crap !
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006.html#43 Sprint backs out of IBM outsourcing 
deal
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006c.html#14 Program execution speed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006g.html#20 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#49 The Pankian Metaphor (redux)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#29 The Perfect Computer - 36 bits?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#34 U.S. Cedes Top Spot in Global IT 
Competitiveness
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#13 U.S. Cedes Top Spot in Global IT 
Competitiveness
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#33 IBM Unionization
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007n.html#31 IBM obsoleting mainframe hardware
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007q.html#4 Horrid thought about Politics, 
President Bush, and Democrats
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#22 Toyota Beats GM in Global Production
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#68 Toyota Beats GM in Global Production
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#30 VMware signs deal to embed software 
in HP servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#31 IBM announced z10 ..why so fast...any 
problem on z 9
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#50 Toyota's Value Innovation: The Art of 
Tension
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008h.html#65 Is a military model of leadership 
adequate to any company, as far as it based most on authority and discipline?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#31 Mastering the Dynamics of Innovation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008k.html#2 Republican accomplishments and Hoover
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008k.html#50 update on old (GM) competitiveness 
thread
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008k.html#58 Mulally moto

Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 Jan 2010 22:30:41 -0800, Patrick Scheible 
wrote:

>To some degree, yes.  But people who carry your luggage are
>customarily tipped, and they're really not doing body service.

I believe that's historical in nature.   They didn't used to get paid
at all, but were part of the labor force that hung around for
opportunities to work.

At one time, there were people who carried torches to walk with people
in London at night (before gaslighting).

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:55:22 -0500, Michael Wojcik
 wrote:

>> If the cook does an
>> extraordinary job, we rarely tip him.
>
>At many better restaurants, servers are expected to share a portion of
>their tips with the kitchen staff.

Sure - but his tips aren't related to his doing an extra special job
this time.

A barber raising his rates from $9 to $9.50 will get paid the same $10
as before, regardless of how good the haircut is.   If it's bad, we
will switch barbers.

If my grandkids leave a mess at a self-service restaurant, the cleanup
crew gets a tip from me.   I don't see others doing that though.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<650973648-1262904794-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-20941493...@bda026.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>,
on 01/07/2010
   at 10:53 PM, Ted MacNEIL  said:

>He was a nit-picker, so it means heavily edited.

Wrong again.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Ted MacNEIL]

>>> Making war for peace is like making love for virginity!
>
   >>That's certainly the Bowdlerized version of the quote.
>
>Wait!  I live in Boulder.  What's that got to do with?

Knowing you're being facecious, and the spelling is different, I'm still taking 
a risk of beiong OT, Bowdler was an editor for a British newspaper about 200 
years ago.
He was a nit-picker, so it means heavily edited.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 13:13:27 -0500, Tony Harminc wrote:

>2010/1/6 Ted MacNEIL:
>>>Aristotle said The goal of war is peace, of business, leisure.
>>
>> Making war for peace is like making love for virginity!
>
>That's certainly the Bowdlerized version of the quote.
>
Wait!  I live in Boulder.  What's that got to do with?

-- gil

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 11:32:43 -0500, Michael Wojcik
 wrote:

>...but here we disagree. I usually (in fact, nearly always) get
>service that I feel is worth a tip. Servers, and other people that I
>tip, are usually cheerful, friendly, and helpful. Certainly that could
>be part of the job description and reflected in salaries or fees
>(depending on how the person in question is paid); that model is used
>in many places (eg Japan) and it more or less works.
>
>But we have a tipping system here in the US, and I usually feel it's
>deserved. I do dock servers who aren't good.

I've read that in Japan, tipping wait staff is considered similar to
tipping police. In the U.S., we tip wait staff, but we don't tip
salesmen in clothing stores, no matter how good of service we get.
After all, they get paid by their companies - as do waiters.And
while our tip percentage is based upon service - the tip amount is
based upon how expensive the meal was.If the cook does an
extraordinary job, we rarely tip him.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Tony Harminc]

2010/1/6 Ted MacNEIL :
>>Aristotle said “The goal of war is peace, of business, leisure”.
>
> Making war for peace is like making love for virginity!

That's certainly the Bowdlerized version of the quote.

Tony H.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On 6 Jan 2010 18:03:31 -0800, eamacn...@yahoo.ca (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:

>>Aristotle said “The goal of war is peace, of business, leisure”.
>
>Making war for peace is like making love for virginity!

That's how virgins come into being.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:10:03 -0600, Charles Richmond
 wrote:

 Christmas or a Happy Birthday. If you received a long distance
 call, you *knew* it was something significant.
>>> See _It's a Wonderful Life_.
>> 
>> "Every time the phone rings, an angel gets his wings!"
>> 
>
>"Every time a *bell* rings, an angel gets his wings!"

I think you missed the joke.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Aristotle said “The goal of war is peace, of business, leisure”.

Making war for peace is like making love for virginity!
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:20:46 -0500, jmfbahciv  wrote:

>The goal of a war is to win to the point of changing
>the mindset of the enemy, especially the populace.

That's *a* goal of war.   

Goals in business or war are about of costs and benefits.   The quoted
goal (which doesn't define *how* the mind set is to be changed and how
we measure such success), doesn't look at costs. If what we value
in our country get destroyed, then the costs could be too high.It
is quite possible for both sides to lose.   

Certainly this principle is important in business.When we are
given a mandate to produce an IS result, we work with some assumptions
about costs which often need to be clarified and agreed upon.   We
also are wise in looking behind the mandate and know how it impacts
various goals of the company.


Aristotle said “The goal of war is peace, of business, leisure”.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 01/05/2010
   at 05:57 PM, Clark Morris  said:

>Which then got fouled by DOS360 being substantially different from OS360.

To say nothing of a host of new lines announce *after* the S/360, e.g.,
S/3.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:52:59 -0500, Walter Bushell 
wrote:

>> They weren't really beaten, either. They ran out of fuel, food and
>> ammo.
>
>That constitutes being beaten.

Logistics is a major, major component of warfare.

And business.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Clark Morris]

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:33:29 -0500, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you
wrote:

>
>hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> Watson pushed S/360 out the door so fast partly because his product
>> line was stale and competitors were gaining on him.  Honeywell was
>> 'stealing' his 1401 customers with their machine and Watson couldn't
>> stand that fact.  On the one hand, we can see that competition was
>> good in that it pushed for improved technology and support that S/360
>> offered.  On the other hand, was the competition bad in that a machine
>> was announced before its time*?
>
>2nd hand tale of some of the competitors testimony in gov./ibm
>anti-trust trial ... all computer manufacturers knew by the late 50s
>that the single most important factor in the market place was to have a
>compatible architecture across the whole machine line ... and they
>weren't able to get all the different plant managers to toe the line
>... different plant managers responsible for different models would do
>various optimizations for the particular technology that they were
>using. Only Watson prevailed in forcing all the plant managers
>(responbile for the different models) to toe the 360 architecture
>comptability line.

Which then got fouled by DOS360 being substantially different from
OS360.  I am still trying to figure out how they both got /* as end of
card data. 
>
>this was raised recently in this thread by comments about the pain
>various customers had in migrating from earlier machines to 360 (and
>never wanting to ever do that again).
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#60 360 programs on a z/10
>
>also mentioned in the thread ... that lesson/concept got temporarily
>lost in the future system detour
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys
>
>there was a corollary ... that being the only vendor getting the single
>most important thing right ... it might be able to get lots of other
>things wrong ... and still dominate the market.
>
>part of the issue back then was that software was somewhat simpler and
>tended to have machine/architecture dependeancies exposed. there has
>been some software progress in 40yrs being able to better abstract
>hardware features.
>
>other posts in this thread:
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#52 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#57 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#68 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#69 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#4 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#9 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#13 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#16 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#17 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#20 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#24 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#26 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#28 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#29 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#30 360 programs on a z/10
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#34 360 programs on a z/10

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:33:29 -0500, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
 wrote:

>2nd hand tale of some of the competitors testimony in gov./ibm
>anti-trust trial ... all computer manufacturers knew by the late 50s
>that the single most important factor in the market place was to have a
>compatible architecture across the whole machine line ... 

Of course that doesn't mean it's good to only have one machine line.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:36:16 +0100, Morten Reistad 
wrote:

>The Germans could offer significant resistance until January of
>1945. Go read what the Ardenner offensive did to Eisenhower's
>broad front. Now imagine what it would do to Patton's forces, 
>or Monty's for that matter if they had indeed done such a spearhead.

I'm not suggesting one way is better than the other.My objection
is to the following statement in this thread:

>And we do know that Eisenhower was correct "enough".  And that's what
>really counts.

Yeah, the Nazis didn't win.But that is insufficient reason to
assume our choice was optimal.Same thing with Tom Watson Jr's
management styles, or IBMs mainframe strategy or my career choices.
"Good enough" isn't an optimal strategy.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 08:40:03 -0800 (PST), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>As to IBM and competition, both Watsons had the attitude that they
>'earned' and thus 'owned' or 'deserved' 100% of the information
>processing machine marketplace because they were the best and worked
>very hard to build up their customer base.  They deeply resented
>intrusions onto their marketshare.  That attitude led to anti-trust
>troubles for both of them.
>
>Watson pushed S/360 out the door so fast partly because his product
>line was stale and competitors were gaining on him.  Honeywell was
>'stealing' his 1401 customers with their machine and Watson couldn't
>stand that fact.  On the one hand, we can see that competition was
>good in that it pushed for improved technology and support that S/360
>offered.  On the other hand, was the competition bad in that a machine
>was announced before its time*?
>
>
>[*I keep thing of Orson Wells and the wine commercials, "we will sell
>no wine before its time."]

And I keep thinking of the book and movie 
_Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room_

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Rick Fochtman]

Note that both Patton and Montgomery agreed that the best approach was
a spearhead across Europe into Germany.  They disagreed on who should
lead it, each wanted to be the sole leader of the action.  Eisenhower
overruled both and ordered a broad approach.  Was Eisenhower or Patton
correct?  Again, Hindsight is 20/20.
 


And we do know that Eisenhower was correct "enough".  And that's what
really counts.
   

Is it really enough??? If *many* more lives could have been saved by 
doing things a different way and *still* succeeding... would that *not* 
have been better???


 


You are unbelievable.  Do you really wish that Europe dithered until
after Germany had the atomic bomb?
   



He implied nothing of the kind. The question was - if, say, Patton
and Montgomery were right, that the war could have been won quicker
with fewer casualties - wouldn't that have been better?
 


--
Since none of us were likely there, and since the principal decision 
makers have all "met their maker", it doesn't really matter. I'm sure 
that these are all questions that caused a LOT of lost sleep, not to 
mention the political concerns. War itself is a stupendous waste of men 
and material; anything that reduces the amount of these costs is 
goodness. And having been involved in combat, in Viet Nam, I can tell 
you that the suffering inflicted on non-combatants in the area is 
emminently more terrible and senseless.


Now let's get back "on-topic".

Rick

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 13:22:24 -0800 (PST), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>Many government agencies add very hefty surcharges to collect calls
>placed by inmates in jails and prisons.  They claim it's to cover
>security costs but IMHO it's just a way to raise revenue.   Usually
>the families of prison inmates are quite poor.  Even if they weren't
>poor to start with, the loss of the main breadwinner to prison makes
>them poor.
>
>Family contacts go a long way to reduce re-offending.  Making such
>contacts harder increases the chances an inmate will re-offend when he
>gets out.  Not smart policy.
>
>
>> It's starting to backfire, though - now that cell phones are so
>> widespread (and rates are dropping), more and more people choose
>> to use their cell phone instead of the room phone.
>
>Smuggled cell phones is a security problem in prisons.  They let
>gangsters conduct business while on the inside.

Could it be that making such contacts harder decreases the chance that
an inmate will re-offend when he gets out?

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:18:21 -0500, jmfbahciv  wrote:

 Note that both Patton and Montgomery agreed that the best approach was
 a spearhead across Europe into Germany.  They disagreed on who should
 lead it, each wanted to be the sole leader of the action.  Eisenhower
 overruled both and ordered a broad approach.  Was Eisenhower or Patton
 correct?  Again, Hindsight is 20/20.
>>>
>>> And we do know that Eisenhower was correct "enough".  And that's what
>>> really counts.
>> 
>> Is it really enough??? If *many* more lives could have been saved by 
>> doing things a different way and *still* succeeding... would that *not* 
>> have been better???
>> 
>
>You are unbelievable.  Do you really wish that Europe dithered until
>after Germany had the atomic bomb?

He implied nothing of the kind. The question was - if, say, Patton
and Montgomery were right, that the war could have been won quicker
with fewer casualties - wouldn't that have been better?

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:02:41 -0500, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
 wrote:

>one of boyd's stories about ww2 ... was US running ww2 on mass hordes,
>overwhelming resources, and logistics (because it didn't people to run
>it based on "skills"). one example he used was sherman tank that was
>significantly overmatched ... but US could produce them at ten times the
>rate of german tanks ... and so could win via attrition (modulo issue
>with morale among tank crews that were being used as cannon fodder).

Even more important than out-tanking the enemy was out-Jeeping them. 

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:29:41 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
 wrote:

>> Note that both Patton and Montgomery agreed that the best approach was
>> a spearhead across Europe into Germany.  They disagreed on who should
>> lead it, each wanted to be the sole leader of the action.  Eisenhower
>> overruled both and ordered a broad approach.  Was Eisenhower or Patton
>> correct?  Again, Hindsight is 20/20.
>
>And we do know that Eisenhower was correct "enough".  And that's what
>really counts.

Unless we were one of the casualties who might have been better off
with a "better" way.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On 3 Jan 2010 10:27:51 GMT, Huge  wrote:

>When I worked for Xerox, my boss made an international telephone call to
>query a 20c discrepancy on my expenses.

When I worked for EDS, I got called up because my meal expenses were
whole dollar amounts.We were expected to calculate tips to the
penny instead of rounding them.Who does that?

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:50:35 -0800 (PST), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>Around 1971 the Bell System implemented a major rate reduction and
>rate structure change.  All dialed direct calls became a minute
>minimum instead of three minutes.  Weekend and late-night calls dialed
>direct calls became quite cheap, as low as 5c a minute for short
>distances.  This was a boon to college kids who were often up late at
>night.  (If direct dialing wasn't available the rates still applied).

The competition of "free" long distance calls for cellular phones and
Internet phones hasn't yet finished this process.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Howard Brazee]

On 02 Jan 10 14:49:04 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" 
wrote:

>At least there was a somewhat reasonable excuse.  At one PPOE I recall
>that my boss and his boss would regularly spend $100 worth of time
>arguing over a $10 item in the budget.

Sometimes that is a worthwhile investment, when we include the benefit
of getting them out of the workers' way.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


Anne & Lynn Wheeler  writes:
> but that wasn't the refrain during the future system period in the 90s
> ... FS was going to be as different from s/360 ... and s/360 had been
> from what had gone before. misc. past posts mentioning future system
> effort:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#60 360 programs on a z/10

during future system years ... I would sometimes draw parallels
between FS effort and a cult film that had been playing down
in central sq. for several years.

later when I sponsored Boyd's briefings at IBM ... Boyd would tell this
story about reviewing the specs on the airforce air-to-air missile that
would be used in vietnam ... which seemed to carry some fantasy
aspect ... similar to some of others comments about FS
http://www.jfsowa.com/computer/memo125.htm

partial retelling of the (vietnam airforce air-to-air missile) story:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#52 Current Officers

which also had more than a little "fantasy" aspect to it.

other recent reference to Boyd:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#50 "Portable" data centers

past posts mentioning Boyd
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd1

misc. URLs from around the web mentioning Boyd (&/or his OODA-loops):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd2

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.

hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> I think Watson's leadership also contributed to many IBMers eventually
> leaving the company and going to the competition to build peripherals
> and the like.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#60 360 programs on a z/10

I didn't have any knowledge of that. As undergraduate ... and doing
tty/ascii support for cp67 ... tried to get the 2702 to do something, it
couldn't quite do ... helped led to motivation to build clone controller
using Interdata/3 (four of us at the univ, later getting blamed for that
clone controller business) ... mentioned in a couple recent threads:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#29 channels, was Larrabee delayed: 
anyone know what's happening?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#53 DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing

Later at SJR (before research moved up the hill to almaden, was in
bldg. 28 on the main disk division plant site) ... i got involved doing
various things in the disk division & got to play disk engineer.

Among other things ... I would get requested to participate in
conference calls with channel engineers in POK. I once asked why I was
getting sucked into ... and was told that that had been previously been
handled by senior engineers ... but most of them had been hired
away. The atmosphere around silicon valley was startups offering lots of
compensation for experienced people ... not necessarily just larger
salaries ... but frequently also promises of large equity. 

Disk division silicon valley during the go-go years ... was quite a bit
different from many other corporate locations (for instance, there were
some of us that would periodically go by Tandem on friday afternoons, to
see Jim, or the monthly baybunch user group meetings ... where there
would also be people from Amdahl and maybe NAS). People could change
employers several times w/o ever having to move.

There was some of that in boston area ... but not nearly as much. There
is the scenario where head of POK is considered a major contributer to
VMS ... because of convincing corporate to kill off vm370, shutdown
burlington mall development group and move everybody to POK (as
necessary to making the mvs/xa ship schedule) ... some number of people
left and went to work for DEC (on VMS) instead (Endicott eventually
managed to save the vm370 product mission but had to reconstitute a
group from scratch).

In any case, some of the other discussions about Future Systems claim a
major motivation for FS was the rise of the clone controllers (and
then the distraction of FS gave clone processors their opening)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys

in the early 80s ... there was a mini-version ... after some number of
the 801/risc projects were being killed off, people were leaving (AMD,
HP, etc). some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#email811006
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#email811006b
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#email83
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#email85
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#65 801 (was Re: Reviving Multics

there were references wondering why I wasn't part of the exodus
... especially since info about this scenario had got some
dissemination
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.htmL#50 "Portable" data centers

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


Tony Harding  writes:
> Amen to that, Ed! I worked in the field for IBM 1965-70, and the
> overriding word there regarding a major software conversion like 2nd
> generation boxes to S/360 was "never again".

but that wasn't the refrain during the future system period in the 90s
... FS was going to be as different from s/360 ... and s/360 had been
from what had gone before. misc. past posts mentioning future system
effort:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

now amdahl claims that he never knew about future system effort ...  he
left because they were going to build his advanced 360 computers.
however, he gave a talk in (large) MIT auditorium in the 70s. One of the
questions from the audience was how did he convince people to invest in
his clone processors. His reply was ... that even if IBM were to totally
walk away from 370 ... customers had already something like $200B
invested in 360/370 software ... which would keep him in business
through the end of the century (aka might be considered a veiled
reference to future system effort that was going on at the time).  some
of that is made in this reference (including copy of old memo doing some
analysis of FS):
http://www.jfsowa.com/computer/memo125.htm

from above:

Of course, IBM could have delivered a machine with similar or better
performance in 1975 instead of 1977, if they hadn't killed all the
System/370 design projects to avoid competition with the FS fantasy.

... snip ...

the distraction/fantsy of FS ... allowed 370 product pipelines to go dry
... which has been used to explain how clone processors gained such a
market foothold.

another reference with some reference to FS:
http://www.ecole.org/Crisis_and_change_1995_1.htm

from above:

IBM tried to react by launching a major project called the 'Future
System' (FS) in the early 1970's. The idea was to get so far ahead
that the competition would never be able to keep up, and to have such
a high level of integration that it would be impossible for
competitors to follow a compatible niche strategy. However, the
project failed because the objectives were too ambitious for the
available technology.  Many of the ideas that were developed were
nevertheless adapted for later generations. Once IBM had acknowledged
this failure, it launched its 'box strategy', which called for
competitiveness with all the different types of compatible
sub-systems. But this proved to be difficult because of IBM's cost
structure and its R&D spending, and the strategy only resulted in a
partial narrowing of the price gap between IBM and its rivals.

... snip ...

this has some reference to FS discussion from Morris & Fergus book:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#33

partial quote from Morris & Fergus comments

Basically they say that so much energy went into FS that s370 was
neglected, hence Japanese plug-compatibles got a good foothold in the
market; after FS's collapse a tribe of technical folks left IBM or when
into corporate seclusion; and perhaps most damaging, the old culture
under Watson Snr and Jr of free and vigourous debate was replaced with
sycophancy and "make no waves" under Opel and Akers. It's claimed that
thereafter, IBM lived in the shadow of defeat (by the FS failure)

... snip ...

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Ed Gould]

From: P S 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Thu, December 17, 2009 1:09:05 PM
Subject: Re: 360 programs on a z/10

There are some restrictions about doing so (ISAM and a few other BTAM and some 
code that was device dependent (like 2314 etc)).
Just earlier this year I found a load module that was linked in 1972 and it 
still worked.

The other sort of gotcha is date issues might have to be handled slightly 
different (ie 4 digit years) but all in all a simple cobol/assembler/fortran 
probably will still work unchanged.

All in all a darn good dependable upwardly compatible (for the most part). IBM 
in my opinion has done a great service to the user community with OS - z/os.

I count 38 years (probably more) in simple code compatibility.   Now I will not 
say that with IBM and *ANY* COBOL (for this and that) or Language environment, 
but pretty much all areas are excellent.

Ed



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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <0377b9a583fd0e4aacd676ee33ee994b2a9c1...@sdkmail13.emea.sas.com>, on
12/17/2009
   at 06:06 PM, Lindy Mayfield  said:

>I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will still run on
>a z/10.  Is this true? 

Stand-alone S/360 programs will only run in S/370 mode, which hasn't been
available for a long time. I vaguely recall that the 3090 was the last
machine to support it, but it might have been the ES/9000 series.

As for programs that run under an OS, they will often run under a
successor OS, but there are some incompatibilities.

ASCII mode is probably a non-issue; I'm not aware of any OS that supported
it.

If your program depends on getting a program interrupt code 6 on an
alignment error, you will have problems.

If an OS/360 program depends on getting a system ABEND 0C5 for invalid
addresses, it will have problems. Similarly if assumes that only
protection violations will cause an 0C4.

Some system interfaces have changed.

Lots of security holes have been plugged.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <67954f200912171109y59c7d98ao72c4df99dcd6f...@mail.gmail.com>, on
12/17/2009
   at 02:09 PM, P S  said:

>Way cool! Timestamp intact in the object deck? Or is it a load module? 

If it was compiled and linked under OS/360, and it wasn't a really old
release, there would be a timestamp in the IDR data.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Lloyd Fuller]

Don,

Was this using the old Formatted File System?  The military used lots of this 
for awhile.

Lloyd

--- On Sat, 12/19/09, Don Higgins  wrote:

> From: Don Higgins 
> Subject: Re: 360 programs on a z/10
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 7:24 AM
> All
> 
> ISAM was used at Florida Power for the customer master file
> before VSAM 
> before DB2.  Assembler subroutines were called by
> COBOL to access the file 
> either sequentially or randomly and with or without
> update.  The initial reason 
> for using assembler was lack of variable length in COBOL
> initially, but it was a 
> useful choice as it isolated the applicaiton from both
> software and hardware 
> changes such as moving from data cell to pizza ovens
> etc.  Interestingly the 
> DB2 version implemented in 1995 used assembler
> compression/decompression 
> to reduce network traffic by 50%
> 
> Anyway I remember studying the channel programs used by
> ISAM and 
> although they were designed to maximize I/O speed, they
> were severely 
> hampered by the lack of VSAM CA/CI indexing which resulted
> in exceedly long 
> sequential chains of overflow records which could runs for
> hours if the file was 
> not unloaded and reloaded to restore evenly distributed
> overflow track space.
> 
> Don Higgins
> d...@higgins.net 
> 
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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#52 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#57 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#68 360 programs on a z/10

some of the CTSS people went to the science center on the 4th
flr ... some refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

and others went to Multics on the 5th flr. one of the things
that the Multics group prided themselves on was the
customer associated with this
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#42 Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the 
Multics Security Evaluation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#43 another 30 year thing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#44 Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the 
Multics Security Evaluation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#45 Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the 
Multics Security Evaluation

related to customer mentioned in these posts (and about changing from a
20 vm/4341 order to 210 ... old email:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#email790404
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#email790404b

in these posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#12 Multics Nostalgia
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers

i've mentioned before that it wasn't fair to compare total number of
multics installations to total number of vm installations ... or
even the total number of interla corporate vm installations ...
but mention of csc/vm in these old posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email731212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750430

and one of my hobbies was providing & supporting highly customized
(csc/vm) systems to internal datacenters ... and at one point I had
internal customer set that was larger than the aggregate number of
multics installations ... reference at the bottom of this page:
http://www.multicians.org/multics.html
also shown here:
http://www.multicians.org/site-timeline.html

working on some financial standards group in the early to mid
90s ... there were some members that had email that went
thru here:
http://www.multicians.org/site-dockmaster.html

above mentions docmaster is now property of:
http://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic_heritage/museum/

for other topic drift ... the above use to show (maybe still does) a
MISSI/MLS video tape. I talked them into letting me have a physical copy
of the video tape ... because I wanted to produce a voice-over
spoof/satire on MLS.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


g...@gabegold.com (Gabe Goldberg) writes:
> Speaking of ISAM doing interesting channel programming -- ISAM was
> implicated in a very early VM security/integrity threat. Details elude
> me and I sadly don't have the program which used ISAM to penetrate VM,
> but it was discussed in this research

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#52 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#57 360 programs on a z/10

ISAM and other kinds of (looping) channel programs were demonstrated
being able to do denial-of-service attack (hanging channel).

one of the things I did in paging access method on cp67 ... demonstrate
that run-of-mill virtual machines (w/o special privileges for channel
programs) could still do all of their disk access w/o needing channel
programming capability.  
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#mmap

it also significantly raised the abstraction ... eliminating the
"overhead" of channel program abstraction ... and significantly reduced
the overhead. Also with the higher level abstraction ... I could do
significantly higher level of optimization (under the covers). In the
80s, some (otherwise on identical) CMS benchmarks against standard
filesystem on same hardware configuration and same 3380 drives ...  I
could show three times thruput improvement with moderately i/o intensive
workload.

the higher level abstraction also enabled being able doing other kinds
of optimization with trivially sharing executable code and other stuff.

some old email about moving page-mapped stuff (and other things)
from cp67 to vm370:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email731212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750430

as undergraduate in the 60s ... i was doing lots of different cp67 stuff
... some of which shipped in standard product. I would also periodically
get reguests for doing various kinds of enhancements from the vendor.
Although I didn't hear about these guys until much later:
http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/list-archive/0409/8362.shtml

in retrospect, some of the requested features may have originated from
that market segment.

At the science center there, was some interesting security issues with
the cp67 "service" ... since there was student and other non-employee
access from various educational institutions in the boston and cambridge
area.

One such was the science center had ported APL\360 to CMS for CMS\APL
... redoing internal storage management so that it operated much more
efficiently with multi-megabyte workspaces in a virtual memory
environment ... as well as added function to access CMS system services
(which caused some uproar with the APL purists as violating APL).  In
any case, it opened up APL use to a whole new class of applications
(large modeling & "what-if" things ... some of the things that are done
with spreadsheets today). In any case, some of the corporate business
planning people had the highest classified and most valuable of
corporate assets loaded on the cambridge system (complete cuostmer
details) so they could run business modeling remote from Armonk.

The security had to demonstarte that students and other non-employees
(and in fact, non-authorized employees) couldn't access the most
valuable of corporate assets.

Something similar was required in the joint exercise with Endicott
... applying changes to cp67 to add simulation of 370 virtual memory
"virtual machines" (long before virtual memory for 370 was announced).
There was requirement that even the very existance of the activity to
support 370 virtual memory virtual machines (on the cambridge cp67
360/67) didn't leak to student users and other non-employees in any way.

Note that various of the cp67 & vm370 commercial time-sharing service
bureaus provided other kinds of limitations on virtual machine
capabilities to eliminate deminal-of-service kinds of exploits. Some of
them had moved up to value stream into lots of online financial
information ... and would have lots of customers from competing wall
street firms (where potentially there was very large sums of money
involved).

Much later there was folklore about certain class of gov. customers
requesting *ALL* the MVS source that (exactly) corresponded to specific
executing MVS system (as part of a certain kind of MVS certification).
Supposedly there was a corporate task force that spent $5m dollars
studying the issue ... before concluding that it wasn't practical.

for other drift, this is post with tale about the FS effort implementing
a DRM facility for all "future system" documents ... no hard copies
... and detailed control for authorization and access:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#41 While watching Biography about Bill 
Gates on CNBC last Night
and security related precursor post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#39 While

Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Gabe Goldberg]

Speaking of ISAM doing interesting channel programming -- ISAM was implicated 
in a very early VM security/integrity threat. Details elude me and I sadly 
don't have the program which used ISAM to penetrate VM, but it was discussed in 
this research

---

VM/370 security retrofit program
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1124634&dl=GUIDE&coll=GUIDE&CFID=67357903&CFTOKEN=73885624

the feasibility of adding a security kernel to VM/370 was studied and a kernel 
. such as those used by OS/360 ISAM. Certain VM/370 penetrations{l} ...

and

VM/370 Security Retrofit Program-Detailed Design and Implementation Phase
Authors: B. D. Gold; R. R. Linde; M. Schaefer; W. M. Shasberger; D. H. 
Thompson; SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT CORP SANTA MONICA CA

Abstract: This report describes a design strategy for performing a retrofit to 
IBM Corporation's Virtual Machine 370 (VM/370) system that will provide a time- 
shared environment in which user processes bearing differing military 
classification levels may be operated simultaneously without compromise to 
military security. The strategy entails drawing together into a secure kernel 
those system functions that may be exploited to violate security. This report 
finalizes the results of the first two years of an ongoing research and 
development program.
http://www.stormingmedia.us/61/6139/A613901.html


---

into creating a demonstrably secure VM. I experimented with KVM for a while at 
Mitre.

Mike Myers said:

ISAM did some pretty interesting channel programming. It was back in the 
late '60s and early '70s while teaching the internals of ISAM and BDAM 
to Program Support Reps that I learned about self-modifying channel 
programs (fun stuff).


--
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3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042g...@gabegold.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:24:31 -0600, Rick Fochtman wrote:
>
>ISTR doing the same thing, sorting into descending order the names of
>members to be deleted from a large PDS. In that case, the overhead of
>rewriting the directory after the deletion point made my decision MUCH
>easier. Still works well with large PDS's today. I learned it initially
>when cleaning up an old SYS1.UADS dataset. :-)
>
Alas, ISPF member lists make the poorer-performing option the default.

-- gil

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Rick Fochtman]

Which was why in the day I remember sorting input batch files in reverse 
(descending) key sequence so that the ISAM I/O would find the "next" 
insertion point without traversing the entire overflow chain. Ideally, 
if the "next" point was at the start of an overflow chain, *none* of the 
chain had to be read to do the next insertion.


Ah yes, those were the days... (not!).

ISTR doing the same thing, sorting into descending order the names of 
members to be deleted from a large PDS. In that case, the overhead of 
rewriting the directory after the deletion point made my decision MUCH 
easier. Still works well with large PDS's today. I learned it initially 
when cleaning up an old SYS1.UADS dataset. :-)


Rick

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Farley, Peter x23353]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
> Behalf Of Don Higgins
> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:24 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: 360 programs on a z/10
 
> Anyway I remember studying the channel programs used by ISAM and
> although they were designed to maximize I/O speed, they were severely
> hampered by the lack of VSAM CA/CI indexing which resulted in exceedly
> long sequential chains of overflow records which could runs for hours
> if the file was not unloaded and reloaded to restore evenly
> distributed overflow track space.

Which was why in the day I remember sorting input batch files in reverse
(descending) key sequence so that the ISAM I/O would find the "next"
insertion point without traversing the entire overflow chain.  Ideally,
if the "next" point was at the start of an overflow chain, *none* of the
chain had to be read to do the next insertion.

Ah yes, those were the days... (not!).

Peter
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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Don Higgins]

All

ISAM was used at Florida Power for the customer master file before VSAM 
before DB2.  Assembler subroutines were called by COBOL to access the file 
either sequentially or randomly and with or without update.  The initial reason 
for using assembler was lack of variable length in COBOL initially, but it was 
a 
useful choice as it isolated the applicaiton from both software and hardware 
changes such as moving from data cell to pizza ovens etc.  Interestingly the 
DB2 version implemented in 1995 used assembler compression/decompression 
to reduce network traffic by 50%

Anyway I remember studying the channel programs used by ISAM and 
although they were designed to maximize I/O speed, they were severely 
hampered by the lack of VSAM CA/CI indexing which resulted in exceedly long 
sequential chains of overflow records which could runs for hours if the file 
was 
not unloaded and reloaded to restore evenly distributed overflow track space.

Don Higgins
d...@higgins.net 

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


m...@mentor-services.com (Mike Myers) writes:
> ISAM did some pretty interesting channel programming. It was back in
> the late '60s and early '70s while teaching the internals of ISAM and
> BDAM to Program Support Reps that I learned about self-modifying
> channel programs (fun stuff).

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#52 360 programs on a z/10

not long after joining the science center ... I got sent out to Denver
on cp67 customer support call ... King Resources was trying to get a
large ISAM application running under cp67 ... and I spent a week
working 3rd shift in their datacenters. This was when machine room
was still a "show place" (1st floor downtown office building with
outside glass floor-to-ceiling) ... 

as mentioned here
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#21 Small Server Mob Advantage

channel programs built in a "virtual environment" (whether the virtual
machine or from application virtual address space) got "translated" into
shadow/copy channel programs (with real addresses) that were the ones
that really executed.

lots of ISAM "self-modifying" was reading/writting BBCCHHR values which
were later used by other CCWs in the same channel program.

additional challenge for cp67 was "minidisks" ... disk spaces that
"virtual cylinder zero" that was other than "real cylinder zero"
... which required translating "CC" field also (so seek BBCCHH fields
were copied also & translated also). Since the real seek was then
pointing to the copied value ... when a read operation read in a new
"BBCCHHR" ... it was into the virtual location ... not the location
pointed to by the seek actually executed. After doing all sorts of
fiddling ... trying to recognize ISAM channel programs and reads that
were fetching BBCCHH field ... the eventual solution was to recognize
"full-pack" virtual disks that didn't do the fiddling with seek BBCCHH
(and hope noboby really wanted to run ISAM channel programs on
minidisks).

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Mike Myers]

Tom:

Well, actually I did write some privileged code. I believe that my code 
contained the only (if not one of the very few) PTLB (Purge Translate 
Lookaside Buffer) instructions in MVS.


I had (may still have?) a fair amount of code in the nucleus in the 
Virtual and Real Storage Manager components (quickcell and paging 
services).


I thought there was some version of DFP where they finally removed the 
ISAM compatibility code, but I don't remember any official declaration 
of that, just that the use of ISAM phased out on its own after the 
introduction of VSAM in MVS.


ISAM did some pretty interesting channel programming. It was back in the 
late '60s and early '70s while teaching the internals of ISAM and BDAM 
to Program Support Reps that I learned about self-modifying channel 
programs (fun stuff).


Mike

Tom Marchant wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:27:10 -0500, Mike Myers wrote:
  

Yes, I had forgotten about SIO/HIO/TIO and was reminded of those by your
first post. I can't recall if I ever personally wrote a SIO instruction.
Most of the channel programming I ever did was at the EXCP level, so i
don't recall writing a SSCH instruction either.



SIO was a privileged instruction, so you wouldn't have done that unless you
were running in supervisor state.  Same with SSCH.

  

As for the ISAM compatibility interface in VSAM, I think that went out
around the same time as ICF catalogs came along.



No.  Not even close.  IIRC, you could even use actual ISAM until 2000.  ICF
catalogs were out long before 1990.  Support for ISAM applications is still
in VSAM.  I've never heard any statement that it will be withdrawn.

  


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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Tom Marchant]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:27:10 -0500, Mike Myers wrote:
>
>Yes, I had forgotten about SIO/HIO/TIO and was reminded of those by your
>first post. I can't recall if I ever personally wrote a SIO instruction.
>Most of the channel programming I ever did was at the EXCP level, so i
>don't recall writing a SSCH instruction either.

SIO was a privileged instruction, so you wouldn't have done that unless you
were running in supervisor state.  Same with SSCH.

>As for the ISAM compatibility interface in VSAM, I think that went out
>around the same time as ICF catalogs came along.

No.  Not even close.  IIRC, you could even use actual ISAM until 2000.  ICF
catalogs were out long before 1990.  Support for ISAM applications is still
in VSAM.  I've never heard any statement that it will be withdrawn.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Timothy Sipples]

Rick Fochtman writes:
>ISAM is no great loss, but I don't know if the ISAM Compatability
>Interface is still available to convert ISAM calls to the equivalent
>VSAM mechanisms.

Yes, the ISAM interface is still available, so such applications continue
to run (with minor caveats). See (for example) the z/OS 1.11 "DFSMS Using
Data Sets" guide, particularly Appendix E:

http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/dgt2d480.pdf

- - - - -
Timothy Sipples
IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect
Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan / Asia-Pacific
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


m...@mentor-services.com (Mike Myers) writes:
> Yes, I had forgotten about SIO/HIO/TIO and was reminded of those by
> your first post. I can't recall if I ever personally wrote a SIO
> instruction. Most of the channel programming I ever did was at the
> EXCP level, so i don't recall writing a SSCH instruction either.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#14 "Portable" data centers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#18 "Portable" data centers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#49 "Portable" data centers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#50 "Portable" data centers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#51 "Portable" data centers

370 introduced options for SIO/HIO ... SIO fast, Halt device, and Halt
channel.

when i was building an extremely robust operating systems for the disk
engineering and product test labs ... one of the things was getting a
controller or the 303x channel director to reset/re-impl ... as part of
"severe" recovery process (never take down the system ... and require
minimum of manual operations).

it turns out that most controllers would reset/re-impl if you very
quickly hit all of the controller's subchannel addresses with HDV
(basically couple instruction loop). A 303x channel director would also
reset/re-impl ... if you hit all six channel addresses with halt
channel.

misc. past posts mentioning getting to play disk engineer in bldgs.
14 & 15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk

in the move from 360/370 "real storage" to 370 virtual memory ... all
the channel programs required to be hit. most access methods built
channel programs with "real" storage addresses and then would execute
EXCP. The 360 & 370 channels executed channel programs assuming all the
addresses were "real".

moving to 370 virtual memory ... all the channel programs built in
application space would be referring to virtual addresses ... not real
addresses. When this was passed to kernel with EXCP ... EXCP had to
build shadow/duplicate channel program that substituted real addresses
for the virtual addresses (as well as some housekeeping to pin the
virtual pages at the real address).

In cp67, this had been going on for some time ... taking the channel
program from the virtual machine SIO ... and building a shadow/duplicate
channel program with real addresses ... rather than virtual addresses.
The routine in cp67 that performed this function was CCWTRANS. The
initial work on os360 to move to 370 virtual memory ... borrowed a copy
of CCWTRANS (out of cp67) to do the shadow/duplicate channel program.

Part of the justification for SSCH was help with the enormous pathlength
in MVS for I/O redrive ... after taking an interrupt (leaving device
idle during the period). One of the other things I did for operating
system for bldg. 14&15 ... was highly optimized the I/O redrive
pathlength.

This ran into problem with early (internal) work with 3880 disk
controller. There was some early performance product acceptance test of
the 3880 that met with no problem. However, when they swapped a 3830
disk controller with an early 3880 on 3033 in bldg15 (had a string of 16
3330 drives) ... things completely fell apart. I was getting yelled at
that it was my fault. Turns out that 3830 had fast horizontal microcode
engine ... and the 3880 had a much slower vertical microcode engine.
There was some additional hardware paths in the 3880 (to handle 3mbyte
data transfer) but commands and control operations were much slower.  As
part of making the 3880 appear as fast as the 3830 ... the 3880 started
presented operation complete early ... before it was completely
finished. 3880 assumed that it could finish in the delay that it took
the processor to handle the interrupt ... do the other operating system
gorp ... before getting back to redrive the 3880 with new operation.  My
optimized pathlength was hitting the controller with redrive in much
shorter period ... before it had finished its cleanup. This resulted in
having to present CC=1 to the SIO with SM+BUSY (controller busy).  The
processing then had to requeue the operation that it attempt to start
(and go off and do something else). Later the 3880 had to present an
additional CUE interrupt (to indicate it was no longer busy ... because
of having presenting the earlier controller busy). This added all sorts
of additional overhead and delay ... compared to the identical workload
& 3330s using 3830 controller (instead of 3880 controller).

recent post mentioning the SM+BUSY scenario and redrive latency
(dedicated processor being able to handle queued i/o and much lower
latency redrive operation).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009q.html#74 Now is time for banks to replace core 
system according to Accenture

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---

Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Rick Fochtman]

Mike Myers wrote:


Rick:

Yes, I had forgotten about SIO/HIO/TIO and was reminded of those by 
your first post. I can't recall if I ever personally wrote a SIO 
instruction. Most of the channel programming I ever did was at the 
EXCP level, so i don't recall writing a SSCH instruction either.


As for the ISAM compatibility interface in VSAM, I think that went out 
around the same time as ICF catalogs came along.


I agree that most vanilla application level programs written for S/360 
would probably run on a z10 today. IBM took great pains to maintain 
backward compatibility.


Mike Myers


DEBE is one that I remember particularly, because of the acronym DEBE: 
"Does Everything But Eat". But I only remember it as a stand-alone program.


Rick

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Robert Heffner]

At a previous job, the shop used a 3790 Data Entry configuration with 3760 
workstations (remember those?).  The program that was used to extract data 
from the 3791 was called BTP (Batch Transfer Program, I think).  BTP 'talked' 
to VTAM and thus was full of VTAM macros (ACB, GENCB, etc etc).  The 
program had last been assembled and linked in 1978.  After one MVS upgrade 
(don't remember which one), the program would intermittently end with CC=2.  
It would otherwise do what it was supposed to do, so we weren't too 
concerned about it.  Then after another software upgrade (I think it was 
DFSMS 1.1), BTP started failing hard with 0C4, and IBM told us to reassemble 
the program, which took care of the 0C4 abends and also the CC=2.  BTP ran 
flawlessly for the rest of the time that the 3790/3760's were there.

Another program assembled and linkedited in 1968 had problems loading at 
execution time.  I don't remember the specific error, but all I had to do was 
relinkedit the program, and it worked fine.

The point is, sometimes a problem can be resolved by a reassemble and/or 
relink.  But like the other posters have said, it depends on what the program 
is 
doing.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Mike Myers]

Rick:

Yes, I had forgotten about SIO/HIO/TIO and was reminded of those by your 
first post. I can't recall if I ever personally wrote a SIO instruction. 
Most of the channel programming I ever did was at the EXCP level, so i 
don't recall writing a SSCH instruction either.


As for the ISAM compatibility interface in VSAM, I think that went out 
around the same time as ICF catalogs came along.


I agree that most vanilla application level programs written for S/360 
would probably run on a z10 today. IBM took great pains to maintain 
backward compatibility.


Mike Myers

Rick Fochtman wrote:


The 360 instruction set is wholly contained in the z/Series 
instruction set and many system constructs were extended in such a way 
as to make them backward compatible.

-
Not strictly true; SIO/HIO/TIO are no more than fond memories today. 
There might be a very few others, but these are the ones I remember most.


-- 

Some system functions (like the ISAM access method) no longer exist, 
and some things you could get away with in the early days (think 
OS/360) were closed as security or reliability loopholes in MVS.
 

ISAM is no great loss, but I don't know if the ISAM Compatability 
Interface is still available to convert ISAM calls to the equivalent 
VSAM mechanisms.


- 

Most macros are backward compatible as well, although some may require 
re-assembling to work correctly today (but offhand, I can't think of 
any examples).
-- 

AFAIK, only some macros that require a few specialized systems 
services are incompatable. Just about everything that application are 
expected to use are pretty much unchanged, or at least compatible.


---
Some ancient programs like DEBE and Ditto still run on a z/Series 
machine under z/OS, although they may have been reworked to do so. I 
don't still have any of my ancient programs to try out myself.
-- 

Any old stand-alone programs that do ANY I/O will need to be reworked, 
because of the loss of SIO/TIO/HIO instructions and changes in the 
overall architecture in this area. Also programs that expect to use 
certain areas of the first 2K of storage.


In my experience, very few surviving OS/360 application programs will 
fail on z/10 machines. Providing you have access to the correct 
run-time libraries.


Rick

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Rick Fochtman]

The 360 instruction set is wholly contained in the z/Series instruction 
set and many system constructs were extended in such a way as to make 
them backward compatible.

-
Not strictly true; SIO/HIO/TIO are no more than fond memories today. 
There might be a very few others, but these are the ones I remember most.


--
Some system functions (like the ISAM access method) no longer exist, and 
some things you could get away with in the early days (think OS/360) 
were closed as security or reliability loopholes in MVS.


ISAM is no great loss, but I don't know if the ISAM Compatability 
Interface is still available to convert ISAM calls to the equivalent 
VSAM mechanisms.


-
Most macros are backward compatible as well, although some may require 
re-assembling to work correctly today (but offhand, I can't think of any 
examples).

--
AFAIK, only some macros that require a few specialized systems services 
are incompatable. Just about everything that application are expected to 
use are pretty much unchanged, or at least compatible.


---
Some ancient programs like DEBE and Ditto still run on a z/Series 
machine under z/OS, although they may have been reworked to do so. I 
don't still have any of my ancient programs to try out myself.

--
Any old stand-alone programs that do ANY I/O will need to be reworked, 
because of the loss of SIO/TIO/HIO instructions and changes in the 
overall architecture in this area. Also programs that expect to use 
certain areas of the first 2K of storage.


In my experience, very few surviving OS/360 application programs will 
fail on z/10 machines. Providing you have access to the correct run-time 
libraries.


Rick

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Rick Fochtman]

--
I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will still run on 
a z/10. Is this true? Some? Most? All?


Has to be at least one (IEFBR14). (-:

I've never found a program that can't run on a z/10, but a very few that 
won't run under z/OS. Those failures I've encountered are because they 
exploited "holes" in OS/360 that have been subsequently closed. One of 
those "holes" that I used to exploit on a regular basis was vie the 
FREEDBUF SVC, mostly used by BDAM.


As always, YMMV.

Rick

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Finley, Frank]

And here I read the subject line and thought someone got XBOX games running on 
a z/10 and finally put an end to all of the "Get rid of the Mainframe" projects 
Management is so interested in.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Lindy Mayfield
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: 360 programs on a z/10

Windows.  That's where I was going with this.  Just wanted to confirm my 
bragging rights.  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
P S
Sent: 17. joulukuuta 2009 21:09
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: 360 programs on a z/10

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Blaicher, Chris wrote:

> I have not done much testing, but I have an old (1972?) program that still
> works.  Original object code.
>

Way cool! Timestamp intact in the object deck? Or is it a load module? (NOT
challenging it, just wondering!)

I have a Windows program from 2007 that...oh, darn, it won't run any more
since the last Windows patches were applied. O well.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Chris Craddock]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Lindy Mayfield  wrote:

> I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will still run on a
> z/10.  Is this true?  Some? Most? All?
>
> Has to be at least one (IEFBR14).  (-:
>
>
Application programs still run fine as long as they don't use archaic system
services that are no longer supported or depend on ancient runtime functions
also out of support.
On the other hand, systems software might or might not work, depending on
the nature of what they do. On average most old systems software would not
work.



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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Mike Myers]

Lindy:

The 360 instruction set is wholly contained in the z/Series instruction 
set and many system constructs were extended in such a way as to make 
them backward compatible.


Some system functions (like the ISAM access method) no longer exist, and 
some things you could get away with in the early days (think OS/360) 
were closed as security or reliability loopholes in MVS.


Most macros are backward compatible as well, although some may require 
re-assembling to work correctly today (but offhand, I can't think of any 
examples).


It is not unlikely that a 360 program will still work on a z/Series 
machine, but the more vanilla the program, the better the chance that it 
will.


Some ancient programs like DEBE and Ditto still run on a z/Series 
machine under z/OS, although they may have been reworked to do so. I 
don't still have any of my ancient programs to try out myself.


Mike Myers

Blaicher, Chris wrote:

I have not done much testing, but I have an old (1972?) program that still 
works.  Original object code.

Chris Blaicher
Phone: 512-340-6154
Mobile: 512-627-3803

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Lindy Mayfield
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:06 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: 360 programs on a z/10

I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will still run on a 
z/10.  Is this true?  Some? Most? All?

Has to be at least one (IEFBR14).  (-:

Kind regards
Lindy




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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Tom Marchant]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:06:04 +0100, Lindy Mayfield wrote:

>I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will still 
>run on a z/10.  Is this true?  Some? Most? All?

True, with very few exceptions.

John already mentioned privileged instructions.  I/O instructions, for
example, were completely replaced with XA in the early 1980's.  Normal
problem-state programs do not use these instructions though.  They rely on
the operating system to do their I/O for them.

The operating system has carefully maintained this application program
compatibility as well.  Of course, it was always possible to design a
program so that it was dependent on particular machine characteristics.  If
you had a cpu loop that was designed to cause your processing to wait for a
period of time, it would end much sooner today.  Or if you had a program
that depended on the track and cylinder size of a 2314, you'd be out of luck
today.

Another case is the ASCII bit.  Bit 12 of the 360 PSW was the ASCII bit,
which caused certain decimal instructions to behave a little differently
with regard to the sign nybble.  If your 360 program depended on that, it
would not work correctly.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Lindy Mayfield]

Windows.  That's where I was going with this.  Just wanted to confirm my 
bragging rights.  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
P S
Sent: 17. joulukuuta 2009 21:09
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: 360 programs on a z/10

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Blaicher, Chris wrote:

> I have not done much testing, but I have an old (1972?) program that still
> works.  Original object code.
>

Way cool! Timestamp intact in the object deck? Or is it a load module? (NOT
challenging it, just wondering!)

I have a Windows program from 2007 that...oh, darn, it won't run any more
since the last Windows patches were applied. O well.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[P S]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Blaicher, Chris wrote:

> I have not done much testing, but I have an old (1972?) program that still
> works.  Original object code.
>

Way cool! Timestamp intact in the object deck? Or is it a load module? (NOT
challenging it, just wondering!)

I have a Windows program from 2007 that...oh, darn, it won't run any more
since the last Windows patches were applied. O well.

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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:06 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: 360 programs on a z/10
> 
> I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will 
> still run on a z/10.  Is this true?  Some? Most? All?
> 
> Has to be at least one (IEFBR14).  (-:
> 
> Kind regards
> Lindy

So long as they conform to the restrictions, they should. Now, if they use 
priviliged instructions, they may not because of changes in the hardware and 
z/OS. But if they are normal programs, then yes. Oh, if written in an HLL, you 
might need an appropriate run-time. E.g. if the code was written in ANSI COBOL, 
I doubt the executable will still run as there is no ANSI COBOL compatable 
run-time anymore. The same with any system type assembler macros. So, I'd go 
with some to most, depending.

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Systems Engineer IV
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Re: 360 programs on a z/10

[Blaicher, Chris]

I have not done much testing, but I have an old (1972?) program that still 
works.  Original object code.

Chris Blaicher
Phone: 512-340-6154
Mobile: 512-627-3803

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Lindy Mayfield
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:06 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: 360 programs on a z/10

I've often heard that programs that ran on the IBM 360 will still run on a 
z/10.  Is this true?  Some? Most? All?

Has to be at least one (IEFBR14).  (-:

Kind regards
Lindy




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