Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[George Henke]

O, let's just "cut to the chase".

Forget tape, forget disk, forget DR.

Just buy Business Continuity Insurance then if all is lost you just collect.

Of course, this assumes your insurer has not also experienced the same
interruption. or worse still that you are not so big that you trigger
another financial collapse.

But don't worry there is always the bail out..

No, this is not a political comment.

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Scott Rowe  wrote:

> We do DR restore from tape, and we restore over 20TB of data in < 12
> hours using 8 3592-E06 drives.  After I have all the mainframe data
> restored I get to wait for another day or two for the rest of the
> platforms to be ready to go.
>
> >>> R.S.  6/25/2010 5:47 AM >>>
>  Joel C. Ewing pisze:
> > On 06/23/2010 02:56 AM, R.S. wrote:
> >> Schwarz, Barry A pisze:
> >>> Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without
> reading
> >>> the backups?
> [...]
> > Yes, really!  PTAM to a remote secure vault, for transfer to
> appropriate
> > DR site in event of a disaster.
>
> Provocation succesful! 
>
>
> > We would never consider using mass tape restores with only DFSMShsm
> or
> > DB2 Utility facilities, as that WOULD take days.  Generating
> full-volume
> > DR dumps with FlashCopy for later staging to 3590-H carts involves a
> > system disruption of only a few seconds, and restoring all the 100's
> of
> > DASD volumes at DR from 3590-H drives with DASD and tape under FICON
> > channels takes about 2 hours - and we then get to do some
> administrative
> > tasks and twiddle our thumbs waiting on availability of the
> > non-mainframe servers.
> 2 hours ? Maybe in your case.
> Let's do the math: 3592J1A drive, speed approx 30MB/s. You need 2 hours
>
> to restore 216000 MB. 20 hours to restore 2TB, 200 hours to restore
> 20TB. You can divide the time by the number of drives, but it does NOT
>
> scale linearly.
> So, for 20TB and 4 tape drives you can assume 50 hours.
> Not to mention that:
> a) your scenario requires short outage - unacceptable for many
> businesses open "24x7x365". Even if you do "setlog suspend-resume"
> method. YMMV.
> b) Flashcopy DOES AFFECT performance. It can be unacceptable, YMMV.
>
> BTW: There are other PiT methods which allow make consistent copy
> without any disruption.
>
>
> > It all depends on the nature of your business,
> OF COURSE!
> It also depends on the budget your business is willing to spend on DR
> scenario. IT responsibility is to honestly inform what they can get for
>
> such scenario and what can be done after spending additional money.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
> --
> BRE Bank SA
> ul. Senatorska 18
> 00-950 Warszawa
> www.brebank.pl
>
> Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
> XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego,
> nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237
> NIP: 526-021-50-88
> Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci
> wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego
> podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16
> marca 2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec
> podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale
> zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.
>
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-- 
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(C) 845 401 5614

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Scott Rowe]

We do DR restore from tape, and we restore over 20TB of data in < 12
hours using 8 3592-E06 drives.  After I have all the mainframe data
restored I get to wait for another day or two for the rest of the
platforms to be ready to go.

>>> R.S.  6/25/2010 5:47 AM >>>
Joel C. Ewing pisze:
> On 06/23/2010 02:56 AM, R.S. wrote:
>> Schwarz, Barry A pisze:
>>> Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without
reading
>>> the backups?
[...]
> Yes, really!  PTAM to a remote secure vault, for transfer to
appropriate
> DR site in event of a disaster.

Provocation succesful! 


> We would never consider using mass tape restores with only DFSMShsm
or
> DB2 Utility facilities, as that WOULD take days.  Generating
full-volume
> DR dumps with FlashCopy for later staging to 3590-H carts involves a
> system disruption of only a few seconds, and restoring all the 100's
of
> DASD volumes at DR from 3590-H drives with DASD and tape under FICON
> channels takes about 2 hours - and we then get to do some
administrative
> tasks and twiddle our thumbs waiting on availability of the
> non-mainframe servers.
2 hours ? Maybe in your case.
Let's do the math: 3592J1A drive, speed approx 30MB/s. You need 2 hours

to restore 216000 MB. 20 hours to restore 2TB, 200 hours to restore 
20TB. You can divide the time by the number of drives, but it does NOT

scale linearly.
So, for 20TB and 4 tape drives you can assume 50 hours.
Not to mention that:
a) your scenario requires short outage - unacceptable for many 
businesses open "24x7x365". Even if you do "setlog suspend-resume" 
method. YMMV.
b) Flashcopy DOES AFFECT performance. It can be unacceptable, YMMV.

BTW: There are other PiT methods which allow make consistent copy 
without any disruption.


> It all depends on the nature of your business, 
OF COURSE!
It also depends on the budget your business is willing to spend on DR 
scenario. IT responsibility is to honestly inform what they can get for

such scenario and what can be done after spending additional money.

-- 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl 

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237
NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16
marca 2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale
zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

Joel C. Ewing pisze:

On 06/23/2010 02:56 AM, R.S. wrote:

Schwarz, Barry A pisze:

Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading
the backups?

[...]

Yes, really!  PTAM to a remote secure vault, for transfer to appropriate
DR site in event of a disaster.


Provocation succesful! 



We would never consider using mass tape restores with only DFSMShsm or
DB2 Utility facilities, as that WOULD take days.  Generating full-volume
DR dumps with FlashCopy for later staging to 3590-H carts involves a
system disruption of only a few seconds, and restoring all the 100's of
DASD volumes at DR from 3590-H drives with DASD and tape under FICON
channels takes about 2 hours - and we then get to do some administrative
tasks and twiddle our thumbs waiting on availability of the
non-mainframe servers.

2 hours ? Maybe in your case.
Let's do the math: 3592J1A drive, speed approx 30MB/s. You need 2 hours 
to restore 216000 MB. 20 hours to restore 2TB, 200 hours to restore 
20TB. You can divide the time by the number of drives, but it does NOT 
scale linearly.

So, for 20TB and 4 tape drives you can assume 50 hours.
Not to mention that:
a) your scenario requires short outage - unacceptable for many 
businesses open "24x7x365". Even if you do "setlog suspend-resume" 
method. YMMV.

b) Flashcopy DOES AFFECT performance. It can be unacceptable, YMMV.

BTW: There are other PiT methods which allow make consistent copy 
without any disruption.



It all depends on the nature of your business, 

OF COURSE!
It also depends on the budget your business is willing to spend on DR 
scenario. IT responsibility is to honestly inform what they can get for 
such scenario and what can be done after spending additional money.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Joel C. Ewing]

On 06/23/2010 02:56 AM, R.S. wrote:
> Schwarz, Barry A pisze:
>> Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading
>> the backups?
> 
> Of course we do! Does anyone use PTAM for DR? Really?
> We use remoted copy for DR. We don't need to recover anything from tape,
> because we have all the data on DASD. Oh, we do have tapes with MIGRATs
> and backups in DR site - we duplicate all the data on tape, and one
> volume set resides in remote ATL. Without virtual tapes.
> 
> BTW: Tape is fine for recovery single datasets. Time to recover all the
> data from tape is simply unaccpeptable from business point of view. Not
> to mention RPO for tapes (Recovery Point Objective).

Yes, really!  PTAM to a remote secure vault, for transfer to appropriate
DR site in event of a disaster.

We would never consider using mass tape restores with only DFSMShsm or
DB2 Utility facilities, as that WOULD take days.  Generating full-volume
DR dumps with FlashCopy for later staging to 3590-H carts involves a
system disruption of only a few seconds, and restoring all the 100's of
DASD volumes at DR from 3590-H drives with DASD and tape under FICON
channels takes about 2 hours - and we then get to do some administrative
tasks and twiddle our thumbs waiting on availability of the
non-mainframe servers.

It all depends on the nature of your business, whether you have legal
requirements for sub-hour recovery times, whether recovery to a
point-in-time with loss of several hours data is acceptable, whether the
business can manage to run and survive for short-term, maybe even a day
or two, without DP support, and what the risk factors are for your
location. A management that pays for a DR capability that exceeds their
requirements is simply wasting money, and companies the regularly waste
money won't need DR after they go out of business.

It would appear your company must have the luxury (and expense) of
owning their own fixed-location hot site.  I trust it is far enough from
your primary site to not be exposed to the same failures.  In the U.S.
I've always felt that for unhardened centers a 30 - 50 mile separation
should be minimum, but  if you are anywhere near "tornado alley", in
coastal hurricane States, in States subject to major storms that damage
power distribution systems or cause flooding, or near known earthquake
fault lines, that separation minimum should be several hundred miles.

In the U.S. it is possible to contract for DR services at an un-owned
hot site and maintain remote DASD and remote virtual tape there, but
this is not cheap.  Worse, the typical DR hotsite contract in the U.S.
allows for the possibility in the event of a regional disaster that
others who "declare a disaster" earlier may fill all the space in your
normal hot site and you may end up in an alternate hot site separated
from your remote data and have to copy all your data to an alternate
site before running production.
-- 
Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, ARjremoveccapsew...@acm.org

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Rick Fochtman]

I seemed to recall hearing that exact same claim for optical media 
(microfiche, CD, DVD) :-)


And we all know that sales/marketing never lie or even exaggerate :-)

But what about the support infrastructure?  Will Windows 107 support 
the devices needed to support this media?  



So what's the ultimate resolution? Paper printouts updated every minute,
locked in fireproof vaults, then use the current scanner technology to
recover?

Technology sure keeps improving things for us. :-)



One can only wish/hope for full backward compatability.  FAT CHANCE!

Rick

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Mullen, Patrick]

On the plus side, I hear they are offering a money back guarantee if the
media should fail after 99 years.

As long as the purchaser requests it in person, and provides the
original purchase receipt and packaging...


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Hal Merritt
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 11:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?


I seemed to recall hearing that exact same claim for optical media
(microfiche, CD, DVD) :-)

And we all know that sales/marketing never lie or even exaggerate :-)

But what about the support infrastructure?  Will Windows 107 support the
devices needed to support this media?  
 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

SanDisk's SD card can store data for 100 years
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178428/SanDisk_s_SD_card_can_sto
re_data_for_100_years

from above:

The WORM (write once, read many) card is "tamper proof" and data cannot
be altered or deleted, SanDisk said in a statement. The card is designed
for long-time preservation of crucial data like legal documents, medical
files and forensic evidence, SanDisk said.

... snip ...

-- 
42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since
Mar1970
 
NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any files transmitted with it
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Steve Comstock]

Hal Merritt wrote:

I seemed to recall hearing that exact same claim for optical media (microfiche, 
CD, DVD) :-)

And we all know that sales/marketing never lie or even exaggerate :-)

But what about the support infrastructure?  Will Windows 107 support the devices needed to support this media?  


So what's the ultimate resolution? Paper printouts updated every minute,
locked in fireproof vaults, then use the current scanner technology to
recover?

Technology sure keeps improving things for us. :-)


 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Anne 
& Lynn Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

SanDisk's SD card can store data for 100 years
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178428/SanDisk_s_SD_card_can_store_data_for_100_years

from above:

The WORM (write once, read many) card is "tamper proof" and data cannot
be altered or deleted, SanDisk said in a statement. The card is designed
for long-time preservation of crucial data like legal documents, medical
files and forensic evidence, SanDisk said.

... snip ...




--

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-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

* To get a good Return on your Investment, first make an investment!
  + Training your people is an excellent investment


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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Hal Merritt]

I seemed to recall hearing that exact same claim for optical media (microfiche, 
CD, DVD) :-)

And we all know that sales/marketing never lie or even exaggerate :-)

But what about the support infrastructure?  Will Windows 107 support the 
devices needed to support this media?  
 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

SanDisk's SD card can store data for 100 years
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178428/SanDisk_s_SD_card_can_store_data_for_100_years

from above:

The WORM (write once, read many) card is "tamper proof" and data cannot
be altered or deleted, SanDisk said in a statement. The card is designed
for long-time preservation of crucial data like legal documents, medical
files and forensic evidence, SanDisk said.

... snip ...

-- 
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NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any files transmitted with it are 
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Any unauthorized review, use, printing, saving, copying, disclosure or 
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Ron Hawkins]

Tim,

On some non IBM products it's part of provisioning a LUN and managing it as
part of a Tiered Storage strategy, bet it virtualized for CKD or FBA. A
little more sophisticated then manually flicking the write protect switch.

Of course none of the implicit write protection applies when the virtual
tape is still in your Virtual Tape cache (on disk).

I see you've moved to Singapore. I highly recommend the Crazy Elephant
Bar... I lived there for 7 years (Singapore, not the bar).

Ron

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Timothy Sipples
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 10:18 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> Ron Hawkins writes:
> >I guess you have listed all the reasons why one would use WORM
> >disk when replacing tape with disk.
> 
> Maybe not all the reasons, but I am pretty much describing write-once
> media, at least logically. Whether it's disk or tape is another question,
> but tape can inherently behave that way simply by physically separating
the
> cartridge from a drive. Which is what it does all the time anyway. Bonus
> points for throwing the hardware write-protect switch.
> 
> There's also an actual, technical WORM tape cartridge available. With that
> cartridge you don't even have to move anything from the (remote) library.
> What's written isn't disappearing, unless somebody physically steals and
> destroys the cartridge (or destroys its encryption key).
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that tape often gets used in places and roles
> where this implicit (and sometimes explicit) write-once attribute is
> valuable, and often without people necessarily realizing it. For those who
> are 100% disk, how do you prevent inadvertant or intentional
> write-over/corruption/erase calamities? Do you periodically pull spindles
> (in caddies) and send them to a vault, for example? Or whole disk
> subsystems? Or some sort of optical storage? Or have a separate team
> responsible for enabling write-protect settings at the disk storage
> hardware console? Or do you just punt and hope for the best? Or it doesn't
> matter, because the data could vaporize and it'd still be OK?
> 
> - - - - -
> Timothy Sipples
> Resident Architect (Based in Singapore)
> STG Value Creation and Complex Deals Team
> IBM Growth Markets
> E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <890694.35414...@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, on 06/20/2010
   at 04:20 PM, Ed Gould  said:

>From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
>disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
>decreasing all that much.

What are you using tape for? In some cases it hasn't made sense to use
tape for decades. In others, there's no viable alternative in sight.

I see sites that currently have small datasets on tapes moving them to
DASD, and letting archival software migrate the datasets that aren't
being used. But if you need to keep historical records for decades,
then it's hard to beat the cost of tapes in a vault.

Similarly, for backup you might be concerned about recovering after a
head crash, recovering after a finger check, recovering after a
disaster or a few other scenarios. The factors for each are different.
For some, mirrored DASD are sufficient[1], for some, temporary backups
to DASD are appropriate, and for some, tape is still the best choice.

The above is written under the assumption of making technically sound
choices. If that is not the case, all bets are off.

[1] Assuming that they're far enough away not to be knocked off
the air by the outages you're concerned with.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

SanDisk's SD card can store data for 100 years
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178428/SanDisk_s_SD_card_can_store_data_for_100_years

from above:

The WORM (write once, read many) card is "tamper proof" and data cannot
be altered or deleted, SanDisk said in a statement. The card is designed
for long-time preservation of crucial data like legal documents, medical
files and forensic evidence, SanDisk said.

... snip ...

-- 
42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Jim Marshall]

>Schwarz, Barry A pisze:
>> Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading the 
backups?
>
>Of course we do! Does anyone use PTAM for DR? Really?
>We use remoted copy for DR. We don't need to recover anything from tape,
>because we have all the data on DASD. Oh, we do have tapes with MIGRATs
>and backups in DR site - we duplicate all the data on tape, and one
>volume set resides in remote ATL. Without virtual tapes.
>
>BTW: Tape is fine for recovery single datasets. Time to recover all the
>data from tape is simply unaccpeptable from business point of view. Not
>to mention RPO for tapes (Recovery Point Objective).
>--
>Radoslaw Skorupka

For people with limited budgets there can be a blend where Tapes are indeed 
used and cost effective. Oh yes, the RTO here is 12 hours for Production with 
our RPO is 30-60 seconds.  

1. Mirror critical Production data to the remote location; thus one can IPL. 
2. Do not mirror the Spool and other very static production data depending on 
the application needs. 
3. Contract to firms like IBM, etc, to use their horsepower in the DR versus 
buying your own CPUs. 
4. Recover the "other" static, non-critical data from tape. 
5. Recover the development systems from tape but not the development data 
(it can be rebuilt from Production data in most cases)
Note: Development systems are absolutely needed in DR because changes 
happen and also bugs are found which need to be fixed. In our cases US Law 
changes may mean application changes are in order. 

So indeed tape still plays. Mirroring "all" data is expensive and maybe it is 
warranted. Having nothing on tape would be great (maybe). Mirroring tape has 
its expense much greater than say using PTAM for some or even all.  

Hey, since there is no one right answer, then it takes a community of 
SYSPROGs to implement. With one right answer then would need all of us. 

jim   



  

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Timothy Sipples]

Ron Hawkins writes:
>I guess you have listed all the reasons why one would use WORM
>disk when replacing tape with disk.

Maybe not all the reasons, but I am pretty much describing write-once
media, at least logically. Whether it's disk or tape is another question,
but tape can inherently behave that way simply by physically separating the
cartridge from a drive. Which is what it does all the time anyway. Bonus
points for throwing the hardware write-protect switch.

There's also an actual, technical WORM tape cartridge available. With that
cartridge you don't even have to move anything from the (remote) library.
What's written isn't disappearing, unless somebody physically steals and
destroys the cartridge (or destroys its encryption key).

I guess what I'm saying is that tape often gets used in places and roles
where this implicit (and sometimes explicit) write-once attribute is
valuable, and often without people necessarily realizing it. For those who
are 100% disk, how do you prevent inadvertant or intentional
write-over/corruption/erase calamities? Do you periodically pull spindles
(in caddies) and send them to a vault, for example? Or whole disk
subsystems? Or some sort of optical storage? Or have a separate team
responsible for enabling write-protect settings at the disk storage
hardware console? Or do you just punt and hope for the best? Or it doesn't
matter, because the data could vaporize and it'd still be OK?

- - - - -
Timothy Sipples
Resident Architect (Based in Singapore)
STG Value Creation and Complex Deals Team
IBM Growth Markets
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Dave Kopischke]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:42:11 +, Linda Mooney 
 wrote:

>Hi Dave, 
>
>
>
>I have had experience with two different VTLs, both of which allowed 
recovery of scratch volumes, we used TMS with both of them.  The first was 
an IBM 3494 ATL/VTS, the second a Bus-Tech virtual only appliance.  For 
both, if virtual volumes went to scratch, and the volser had not yet been re-
used, the scratched volume could be reset.  We could do those recoveries 
ourselves.  
>

Linda,
   I just got an E-Mail from our rep on this too. Apparently we can reset a 
VOLSER as long as it hasn't been over-written. We're Luminex/DataDomain. I'll 
have to look up the procedure for this one.

Thanks,
  Dave K.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Rick Fochtman]

---

I would have thought Katrina would have widened peoples perspective on 
   


circumference of influence.

The only thing we learn from history is people fail to learn from history.

Look at the Y2K+10 problem; 10 years later and programmes are still failing for 
exactly the same reason.
 


---
I would attribute much of this to management's failure to think any 
farther ahead that the tips of their (noses?). And programmers that 
think they know all the pitfalls and don't bother to examine the 
experiences of other who are willing to share. 


ARROGANCE AND EGOTISM RULE!!!   :-(

Rick

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Linda Mooney]

Hi Dave, 



I have had experience with two different VTLs, both of which allowed recovery 
of scratch volumes, we used TMS with both of them.  The first was an IBM 3494 
ATL/VTS, the second a Bus-Tech virtual only appliance.  For both, if virtual 
volumes went to scratch, and the volser had not yet been re-used, the scratched 
volume could be reset.  We could do those recoveries ourselves.  



In the case of the IBM 3494 virtual volumes, even if the volser had been 
re-used, IBM was able to recover several volumes for us that had been re-used 
several times, as long as the VTS had sufficient space so that the internal 
disk area had not be overwritten .  With the Bus-Tech appliance, it does not 
overwrite scratched volumes until the space is actually needed to write new 
data.  The more free space available, the more time to recover - as long as 
there are enough volsers defined.  These were the setup/install options we 
chose, YMMV, and they have worked really well for us. 



Linda Mooney 

     
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Kopischke"  
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:13:53 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape? 

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:08:43 -0400, George Henke  
wrote: 

... 
>Just before cutover, the tape management system, IBM's RMM (Removable 
Media 
>Management), inadvertently released 1000's of tapes to the SCRATCH pool   
by 
>mistake. 
> 
... 
>Had that condition persisted 24 hours it would have been a complete 
>disaster, nightmare. 
... 
>Needless to say there are also software reasons for eliminating tape. 
> 

Just to be clear, our implementation is virtual tape. We still use TMS to 
manage the virtual tapes. If something like this were to have happened to us, 
the tapes would have gone scratch. There is no operator intervention. We 
have a code gateway for passing scratch tape VOLSERs to the VTL. Any 
anomolies have to be caught in the code or the volumes go scratch. With 
tape, you can recover the data if the volume hasn't been overwritten. With 
the VTL, probably not. 

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Ted MacNEIL]

>I would have thought Katrina would have widened peoples perspective on 
circumference of influence.

The only thing we learn from history is people fail to learn from history.

Look at the Y2K+10 problem; 10 years later and programmes are still failing for 
exactly the same reason.


-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

Shane Ginnane pisze:

Minimum separation 10 megatons ?.

I would have thought Katrina would have widened peoples perspective on 
circumference of influence.


The distance itself is not enough to assess DR location. Example Nile 
and datacenters in Luxor and Cairo. 700km and stupid location of BOTH 
datacenters not to mention reciprocal dependence. (hint: Egypt)


Another example: datacenter located in a factory. NO DR center, no DR 
plan. AND THIS IS WISE.
Reason: the datacenter is needed ONLY if the factory is available. If a 
factory is lost then datacenter is useless. Important data are moved out 
using PTAM. Of course there are backups kept locally, that's separate 
protection against separate problems.



Theoretical example: nation-wide corporation and DR center in another 
gallactic. Even in case of nuclear war datacenter will survive ...but 
what for?


We can talk about scope of disaster and scope of business.

My €0.02
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
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ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Dave Kopischke]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:08:43 -0400, George Henke  
wrote:

...
>Just before cutover, the tape management system, IBM's RMM (Removable 
Media
>Management), inadvertently released 1000's of tapes to the SCRATCH pool  
by
>mistake.
>
...
>Had that condition persisted 24 hours it would have been a complete
>disaster, nightmare.
...
>Needless to say there are also software reasons for eliminating tape.
>

Just to be clear, our implementation is virtual tape. We still use TMS to 
manage the virtual tapes. If something like this were to have happened to us, 
the tapes would have gone scratch. There is no operator intervention. We 
have a code gateway for passing scratch tape VOLSERs to the VTL. Any 
anomolies have to be caught in the code or the volumes go scratch. With 
tape, you can recover the data if the volume hasn't been overwritten. With 
the VTL, probably not.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 6/23/2010 9:32:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
steve_thomp...@stercomm.com writes:

When doing a DR test, are you married to the
recovery location?  If you own the "hot site" then this question may  not
apply.


>>
IIRC got put in after a large Midwestern  Insurance Company had to go to 
their 'paper plan' after lightning strike to  ammonium nitrate trailer. It was 
between primary and backup. The shock wave  knocked out the sealed bearings 
on all the dasd(SLED). I met a couple of the  sysprogs at a tuning 
conference a few weeks after it happened and they were  still ashen zombies.




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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Hal Merritt]

We have to consider the business mission and environment. A system might not 
contain anything worth backing up, or already substantially replicated 
somewhere else. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Shane Ginnane
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

Minimum separation 10 megatons ?.

I would have thought Katrina would have widened peoples perspective on 
circumference of influence.

Shane ...

On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:18:36 EDT, Ed Finnell wrote:

>
>forgotten anything or done anything that will "bend" the plan. Our  DR
>involves an alternate site on the other side of the  campus.
>>
>>Minimum separation 10 miles?

 
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Shane Ginnane]

Minimum separation 10 megatons ?.

I would have thought Katrina would have widened peoples perspective on 
circumference of influence.

Shane ...

On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:18:36 EDT, Ed Finnell wrote:

>
>forgotten anything or done anything that will "bend" the plan. Our  DR
>involves an alternate site on the other side of the  campus.
>>
>>Minimum separation 10 miles?

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Rick Fochtman]

Not possible due to financial considerations. Backup machine belongs to 
a different department and I had to pull teeth to even get access to it.


Rick
-
Ed Finnell wrote:



In a message dated 6/23/2010 9:14:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
rfocht...@ync.net writes:


forgotten anything or done anything that will "bend" the plan. Our  DR 
involves an alternate site on the other side of the  campus.



 


Minimum separation 10 miles?
 




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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Ed Finnell
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?


 
In a message dated 6/23/2010 9:14:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
rfocht...@ync.net writes:

forgotten anything or done anything that will "bend" the plan. Our  DR 
involves an alternate site on the other side of the  campus.


>>
Minimum separation 10 miles?



Brings up a question. When doing a DR test, are you married to the
recovery location? If you own the "hot site" then this question may not
apply.

In DR tests, does anyone look at who else is using the DR site (assuming
non-owned recovery location)? How many of those would be having to do DR
at the same time should there be some regional disaster? So if the DR
site is full, wouldn't tape be needed to go to a different recovery
site?

So are you married to that site, or do you have the ability to go to a
different site. And if you can change sites, wouldn't you have to use
tape?

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 6/23/2010 9:14:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
rfocht...@ync.net writes:

forgotten anything or done anything that will "bend" the plan. Our  DR 
involves an alternate site on the other side of the  campus.


>>
Minimum separation 10 miles?




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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Rick Fochtman]

At the shop I'm consulting in right now, we are just getting DR plans in 
place, including quarterly exercises to make sure that we haven't 
forgotten anything or done anything that will "bend" the plan. Our DR 
involves an alternate site on the other side of the campus.


Rick

Schwarz, Barry A wrote:


Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading the 
backups?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
R.S.
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

W dniu 2010-06-22 18:40, Hal Merritt pisze:
 


Most all backups are WORN. They are created, perhaps sent off site, and 
returned to the scratch pool never having been read. An archival backup would 
not be returned to scratch because it would most likely exceed its expected 
life while in storage.
   



We observed very similar thing: vast majority of our backups are never
read! We work on eliminating those never-read backups. That could save
us a lot of resources. 

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.

 




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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Ron Hawkins]

Tim,

I guess you have listed all the reasons why one would use WORM disk when
replacing tape with disk.

Ron

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Timothy Sipples
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:46 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> George Henke's post reminded me of one additional reason why many
> organizations use tapes: it is very easy to physically isolate them from
> any running programs on a routine basis.
> 
> It's rare (getting more common?), but it is possible for software to go
> "rogue," inadvertantly or intentionally. Let's just consider a human,
> directly. Any storage that is attached to the computer he has "root"
access
> to he could wipe or, better yet, corrupt, if he wanted to. (Maybe he had a
> bad day? Or year?) These days wiping all the encryption keys would do
> nicely, rendering encrypted disk useless -- which is why there's the
> concept of a "key vault."
> 
> A set of tapes in a vault is beyond his reach. A physically disconnected
> disk unit would be beyond his reach too, but to periodically separate your
> data from all computing devices (and from the few rogue operators), tape
is
> very hard to beat.
> 
> Maybe somebody has a solution in mind for how you get that near-foolproof
> vaulting without tape. I'm curious about that. I suppose one way would be
> to put hard drives in caddies of some kind, load them up, then vault the
> spindles-with-caddies. But doesn't tape do that well?
> 
> One analogy is the seed vault that's somewhere in Scandinavia. It's a
vault
> containing samples of the world's most valuable seed crops. The vault is
> biologically separated from the entire rest of the world, so if there's
> some new virus or other disease which rapidly wipes out crops, the seed
> vault stands in reserve. It stores the world's seeds, on tape, so to
speak.
> 
> - - - - -
> Timothy Sipples
> Resident Architect (Based in Singapore)
> STG Value Creation and Complex Deals Team
> IBM Growth Markets
> E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

Schwarz, Barry A pisze:

Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading the 
backups?


Of course we do! Does anyone use PTAM for DR? Really?
We use remoted copy for DR. We don't need to recover anything from tape, 
because we have all the data on DASD. Oh, we do have tapes with MIGRATs 
and backups in DR site - we duplicate all the data on tape, and one 
volume set resides in remote ATL. Without virtual tapes.


BTW: Tape is fine for recovery single datasets. Time to recover all the 
data from tape is simply unaccpeptable from business point of view. Not 
to mention RPO for tapes (Recovery Point Objective).

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Timothy Sipples]

George Henke's post reminded me of one additional reason why many
organizations use tapes: it is very easy to physically isolate them from
any running programs on a routine basis.

It's rare (getting more common?), but it is possible for software to go
"rogue," inadvertantly or intentionally. Let's just consider a human,
directly. Any storage that is attached to the computer he has "root" access
to he could wipe or, better yet, corrupt, if he wanted to. (Maybe he had a
bad day? Or year?) These days wiping all the encryption keys would do
nicely, rendering encrypted disk useless -- which is why there's the
concept of a "key vault."

A set of tapes in a vault is beyond his reach. A physically disconnected
disk unit would be beyond his reach too, but to periodically separate your
data from all computing devices (and from the few rogue operators), tape is
very hard to beat.

Maybe somebody has a solution in mind for how you get that near-foolproof
vaulting without tape. I'm curious about that. I suppose one way would be
to put hard drives in caddies of some kind, load them up, then vault the
spindles-with-caddies. But doesn't tape do that well?

One analogy is the seed vault that's somewhere in Scandinavia. It's a vault
containing samples of the world's most valuable seed crops. The vault is
biologically separated from the entire rest of the world, so if there's
some new virus or other disease which rapidly wipes out crops, the seed
vault stands in reserve. It stores the world's seeds, on tape, so to speak.

- - - - -
Timothy Sipples
Resident Architect (Based in Singapore)
STG Value Creation and Complex Deals Team
IBM Growth Markets
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 6/22/2010 7:08:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
gahe...@gmail.com writes:

Needless to say there are also software reasons for eliminating  tape.



>>
What was the one a few years back where  the last thing before a forced 
catastrophic shutdown was SIM Alert-NVS battery  has failed? When they re-ipl'd 
nothing was on DASD!  Had to restore the shop. Think it was a SW conference 
 school but I can't keep up with all the machinations of NCAA. Maybe 
there's a  netapp 




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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[George Henke]

A few years ago I was working for a very large insurance company at one of
the largest data centers in the US if not the world.

We were doing a migration to z/OS 1.4 back then.

Just before cutover, the tape management system, IBM's RMM (Removable Media
Management), inadvertently released 1000's of tapes to the SCRATCH pool  by
mistake.

Fortunately, a sharp tech support person caught the anomaly first thing in
the morning.

Had that condition persisted 24 hours it would have been a complete
disaster, nightmare.

The RMM bug arose from sharing the tape catalog under certain conditions and
inspired an immediate fix by IBM.

Needless to say there are also software reasons for eliminating tape.

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Schwarz, Barry A <
barry.a.schw...@boeing.com> wrote:

> Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading the
> backups?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
> Behalf Of R.S.
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:41 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
>
> W dniu 2010-06-22 18:40, Hal Merritt pisze:
> > Most all backups are WORN. They are created, perhaps sent off site, and
> returned to the scratch pool never having been read. An archival backup
> would not be returned to scratch because it would most likely exceed its
> expected life while in storage.
>
> We observed very similar thing: vast majority of our backups are never
> read! We work on eliminating those never-read backups. That could save
> us a lot of resources. 
>
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>



-- 
George Henke
(C) 845 401 5614

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Schwarz, Barry A]

Doesn't anyone exercise the DR plan anymore?  If so, without reading the 
backups?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
R.S.
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

W dniu 2010-06-22 18:40, Hal Merritt pisze:
> Most all backups are WORN. They are created, perhaps sent off site, and 
> returned to the scratch pool never having been read. An archival backup would 
> not be returned to scratch because it would most likely exceed its expected 
> life while in storage.

We observed very similar thing: vast majority of our backups are never
read! We work on eliminating those never-read backups. That could save
us a lot of resources. 

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Patrick Lyon]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:41:19 +0200, R.S. 
 wrote:

>We observed very similar thing: vast majority of our backups are never
>read! We work on eliminating those never-read backups. That could save
>us a lot of resources. 

And pray to the almighty that some of them never have to be! 

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

W dniu 2010-06-22 18:40, Hal Merritt pisze:

Most all backups are WORN. They are created, perhaps sent off site, and 
returned to the scratch pool never having been read. An archival backup would 
not be returned to scratch because it would most likely exceed its expected 
life while in storage.


We observed very similar thing: vast majority of our backups are never 
read! We work on eliminating those never-read backups. That could save 
us a lot of resources. 


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Hal Merritt]

Most all backups are WORN. They are created, perhaps sent off site, and 
returned to the scratch pool never having been read. An archival backup would 
not be returned to scratch because it would most likely exceed its expected 
life while in storage. 



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Hal Merritt
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:29 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> Interesting. Your experience is comparable to some cost 
> studies we did some years ago (with much more expensive 
> DASD). The root issue seems to be to get folks to recognize 
> the true TCO of a tape based solution. 
> 
> Some, for example, discount the human costs because that 
> human is already there and has spare time. Some might ignore 
> HVAC, power, and physical footprint simply because those 
> costs are not in their budget. 
> 
> Personally, I agree that a WORN* tape solution may add value 
> for many for a good while yet. 
> 
> WORN = Write once, read never. 
> 

gee, if really WORN, then I'd suggest writting to DD DUMMY or /dev/null.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT
 
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

Hal Merritt pisze:
Which flavor of CDROM or DVD are you referring to? The life expectancy of the media is one consideration, but also the availability of hardware to retrieve the data. I would submit that that is not predictable enough to entrust the family jewels. 


The same apply to cheap tape solutions. However you are right.


Besides, what about BluRay? Some say the CD is already a long dead technology with the DVD right behind. Indeed, I seem to recall a couple of CD drives in my junkbox because they are not usable on newer PC's.  


It depends on what you mean by saying "dead". Media are widely available 
and due to CD-Audio popularity I bet it would be available for years. 
Drives are also available, every DVD drive can read CD. Problem with 
your drives come from drive interface. So called PATA is no longer 
available in home PCs. If you'd chosen more professional interface like 
SCSI then your drives would be still attachable. However you can buy a 
drive with contemporary SATA interface and still read/write CDs. Or you 
can buy an external bay, USB attached with PATA internal interface. Or 
buy PATA card, or...




--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[David Andrews]

On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 11:32 -0400, McKown, John wrote:
> > WORN = Write once, read never. 
> gee, if really WORN, then I'd suggest writting to DD DUMMY or /dev/null.

Back In The Day, we'd have used STC 8350.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Hal Merritt
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:29 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> Interesting. Your experience is comparable to some cost 
> studies we did some years ago (with much more expensive 
> DASD). The root issue seems to be to get folks to recognize 
> the true TCO of a tape based solution. 
> 
> Some, for example, discount the human costs because that 
> human is already there and has spare time. Some might ignore 
> HVAC, power, and physical footprint simply because those 
> costs are not in their budget. 
> 
> Personally, I agree that a WORN* tape solution may add value 
> for many for a good while yet. 
> 
> WORN = Write once, read never. 
> 

gee, if really WORN, then I'd suggest writting to DD DUMMY or /dev/null.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Hal Merritt]

Interesting. Your experience is comparable to some cost studies we did some 
years ago (with much more expensive DASD). The root issue seems to be to get 
folks to recognize the true TCO of a tape based solution. 

Some, for example, discount the human costs because that human is already there 
and has spare time. Some might ignore HVAC, power, and physical footprint 
simply because those costs are not in their budget. 

Personally, I agree that a WORN* tape solution may add value for many for a 
good while yet. 

WORN = Write once, read never. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Dave Kopischke
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 1:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:44:10 -0700, Mark Yuhas 
 wrote:

>Replacing tape with disk?
>Sounds like a great idea - if you have a large enough DASD farm.
>DR would be simpler, too - if you have a large communication pipe to
>your DR site.
>
>However, once the powers-that-be see the cost, tape doesn't seem so bad.

We thought so too, but then did a complete analysis of where our tape library 
was. How old are the tapes on the shelves ??? How much does it cost to 
maintain a tape library ???; floor space, people, hardware...

What it came down to for us was:
1) Almost every tape we had was either at or past its expected shelf life.
2) We had no robotics.
3) We are short on raised floor in the data center.

A new robotic library with new tapes was about $1.2 million. The various 
tapeless quotes were $600K - $800K.

Everything we have, about 10,000 tapes could fit in half a rack on disk. 
Almost 600 square feet of raised datacenter floor dropped to 4 Square feet.

It's virtual, so no operator intervention at all. Saved a half person and 
allowed 
them to do something else. Not sure what, but it isn't 
loading/unloading/racking/shipping tapes.

The data is replicated. We don't have to ship tapes. Saves about $5000 per 
DR test and two days of shipping.

We saved $100K on offsite storage and transport costs.

The data is deduped prior to replication. Not a whole lot of bandwidth required 
to support replication.

All-in-all, I think the total cost of the swap was about equal or maybe 
slightly 
more than what we would have spent cycling tapes, buying new drives and 
managing storage (Offsite, onsite, shipping & handling). But we got a lot of 
benefits from it. We didn't realize how many other things would benefit from 
this nor the costs we wouldn't incur as a result. We just completed a DR test. 
We had a couple disk volumes mis-placed. The volume backups on virtual tape 
were at the hot site, so we just recovered them there. Didn't have to ship a 
thing. Didn't have to travel. Handled the whole test remotely. I think we 
calculated the return on investment at slightly over two years. But when you 
add in all the things we didn't think of, we've probably already paid for it 
and it 
hasn't been a year yet.

Personally, I feel we should still be managing long-term data on tape. But it's 
really hard to argue with the results. We don't have to power a bunch of tape 
drives nor manage the handling and storage of tapes. When the devices reach 
end-of-life, no matter where we decide to go next, we still don't have to 
handle tapes nor worry about them falling off a truck somewhere and have 
that end up in the news.

 
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Hal Merritt]

Which flavor of CDROM or DVD are you referring to? The life expectancy of the 
media is one consideration, but also the availability of hardware to retrieve 
the data. I would submit that that is not predictable enough to entrust the 
family jewels. 

Besides, what about BluRay? Some say the CD is already a long dead technology 
with the DVD right behind. Indeed, I seem to recall a couple of CD drives in my 
junkbox because they are not usable on newer PC's.  


 
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Rick Fochtman
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

Have you considered burning CD-ROMs or DVDs for storage, rather than 
tape? Drives can be less expensive, the media is dirt cheap compared to 
tape and for historical purposes the result will probably last far longer.

Rick
---
Matan Cohen wrote:

>As a small develop company which don't use the tape to archive only for
>backups.
>We are in the processing of get rid of our 3590 (actually the tape driver
> stop working yesterday).
>we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA to
>disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which will
>manage the writing to tapes.
>so all of this step is more for getting rid of the 3590 not Tapes from the
>cost aspect .
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:29 AM, Gibney, Dave  wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
>>>Behalf Of John McKown
>>>Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:38 PM
>>>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>>>Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
>>>
>>>On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 16:20 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
>>>>
>>>>
>>>companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
>>>  
>>>
>>>>I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>However I
>>
>>
>>>> am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
>>>> mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend
>>>>
>>>>
>>or
>>
>>
>>>> staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
>>>> through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are
>>>> saying disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming
>>>>
>>>>
>>cheaper
>>
>>
>>>> so its not impossible that this might be happening.
>>>>
>>>>>From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
>>>> disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
>>>> decreasing all that much. I would like to hear from the list what
>>>> their thoughts are about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe
>>>> happening. Soon/not in the next 20 years/never.
>>>>
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I often wonder how these non-tape users address things like 10 year
>>>archival copies of programs, data, and reports. Which we need for
>>>  
>>>
>>legal
>>
>>
>>>reasons.
>>>  
>>>
>>DFHSM with SMS MGMTCLAS controlled retention.
>>We also have Control-D for report management and CA-Endevor for source
>>management.
>>
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>John McKown
>>>Maranatha! <><
>>>
>>>--
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>>>  
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>  
>


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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Bob Woodside]

On Monday 21 June 2010, McKown, John wrote:
>
> Long term data should be enscribed on granite and stored in the
> Egyptian desert. This is proven technology!
>

My goodness, is it Friday already?


-- 
Bob Woodside
Woodsway Consulting, Inc.
http://www.woodsway.com

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Dave Kopischke]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:04:23 +0200, R.S. 
 wrote:

>Long term data should be recorded on MO device. MO = Magneto-Optical.
>This is the best medium in term of reliability. There are no better ones
>(excluding granite blocks kept on Egyptian desert).
>The drawback is limited capacity and performance not to mention high
>price and limited popularity. The last is important factor - personally
>I have several MO disks and no drive is available around... 

Personally, I have several granite slabs to hold important information for me. 
One is my driver's license. Performance isn't as good, but comprehension is 
much better. They don't melt in the sun and it would take some serious 
chemicals to erase the data.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

W dniu 2010-06-21 18:40, McKown, John pisze:

Long term data should be enscribed on granite and stored in the Egyptian 
desert. This is proven technology!


Long term data should be recorded on MO device. MO = Magneto-Optical. 
This is the best medium in term of reliability. There are no better ones 
(excluding granite blocks kept on Egyptian desert).
The drawback is limited capacity and performance not to mention high 
price and limited popularity. The last is important factor - personally 
I have several MO disks and no drive is available around... 



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[R.S.]

The issue was disputed several times on this forum and almost everyday 
somewhere in the world. The conclusion remains unchanged:
1. Tape is still the best medium for backups, especially for big amounts 
of data and good performance. Of course "big" and "good" is varying and 
grows up every year. It is true for mainframe as well as distributed 
systems.


2. The tape is bad medium for data exchange, but sometimes stubborn 
customers insist on it. Customer is always right...


3. Tapes are bad choice for application data, i.e. batch processing. It 
leads to underutilization of tape volumes, unless you use virtual tapes.


4. Virtual tapes are expensive but convenient in many scenarios, 
especially for "lazy" (more polite: conservative) customers still using 
very small in size tape volumes (see batch processing). Usually virtual 
tapes are back-ended with real tapes - it must be more expensive than 
real tapes without "virtual" appliance.


5. Archival data. Not to mess with backups. Such data usually are small 
to medium sized, performance is not crucial, but reliability of medium 
is crucial. Last but not least: you have to keep both the medium and the 
drive, unless it's fictitious archive.


6. Software installation. An issue specific to mainframe world. I think 
that vast majority of software vendors do offer alternatives to tape. It 
can be Internet download or CD/DVD medium. Reliability, performance and 
capacity of the medium are not critical.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Dave Kopischke]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:44:10 -0700, Mark Yuhas 
 wrote:

>Replacing tape with disk?
>Sounds like a great idea - if you have a large enough DASD farm.
>DR would be simpler, too - if you have a large communication pipe to
>your DR site.
>
>However, once the powers-that-be see the cost, tape doesn't seem so bad.

We thought so too, but then did a complete analysis of where our tape library 
was. How old are the tapes on the shelves ??? How much does it cost to 
maintain a tape library ???; floor space, people, hardware...

What it came down to for us was:
1) Almost every tape we had was either at or past its expected shelf life.
2) We had no robotics.
3) We are short on raised floor in the data center.

A new robotic library with new tapes was about $1.2 million. The various 
tapeless quotes were $600K - $800K.

Everything we have, about 10,000 tapes could fit in half a rack on disk. 
Almost 600 square feet of raised datacenter floor dropped to 4 Square feet.

It's virtual, so no operator intervention at all. Saved a half person and 
allowed 
them to do something else. Not sure what, but it isn't 
loading/unloading/racking/shipping tapes.

The data is replicated. We don't have to ship tapes. Saves about $5000 per 
DR test and two days of shipping.

We saved $100K on offsite storage and transport costs.

The data is deduped prior to replication. Not a whole lot of bandwidth required 
to support replication.

All-in-all, I think the total cost of the swap was about equal or maybe 
slightly 
more than what we would have spent cycling tapes, buying new drives and 
managing storage (Offsite, onsite, shipping & handling). But we got a lot of 
benefits from it. We didn't realize how many other things would benefit from 
this nor the costs we wouldn't incur as a result. We just completed a DR test. 
We had a couple disk volumes mis-placed. The volume backups on virtual tape 
were at the hot site, so we just recovered them there. Didn't have to ship a 
thing. Didn't have to travel. Handled the whole test remotely. I think we 
calculated the return on investment at slightly over two years. But when you 
add in all the things we didn't think of, we've probably already paid for it 
and it 
hasn't been a year yet.

Personally, I feel we should still be managing long-term data on tape. But it's 
really hard to argue with the results. We don't have to power a bunch of tape 
drives nor manage the handling and storage of tapes. When the devices reach 
end-of-life, no matter where we decide to go next, we still don't have to 
handle tapes nor worry about them falling off a truck somewhere and have 
that end up in the news.

--
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Silvio Camplani]

We will soon be starting a migration to eliminate physical tape. We have
chosen Luminex to emulate the tape drives and DataDomain to store and
deduplicate the data (claimed data reduction of 10x to 30x). We are a
small shop and the STK silo (Powderhorn) is at end of life. We have
about 30tb of data on tape (exluding the duplexed tapes).

We have to keep data related to the airplanes we build for as long as
they are in service (>25 years...) We have no growth because the
mainframe is running legacy applications, all new development is on SAP
(Unix and Oracle).

Silvio Camplani
zSeries Sr. Analyst, Systems Support
Bombardier

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:20 -0700, "Ed Gould"  wrote:
> Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
> companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
> 
> I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users. However I
> am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
> mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend or
> staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
> through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are saying
> disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming cheaper so its not
> impossible that this might be happening. 
> 
> From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share disk
> drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really decreasing all
> that much. I would like to hear from the list what their thoughts are
> about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe happening. Soon/not in the
> next 20 years/never.
> 
> Ed

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Rick Fochtman]

Have you considered burning CD-ROMs or DVDs for storage, rather than 
tape? Drives can be less expensive, the media is dirt cheap compared to 
tape and for historical purposes the result will probably last far longer.


Rick
---
Matan Cohen wrote:


As a small develop company which don't use the tape to archive only for
backups.
We are in the processing of get rid of our 3590 (actually the tape driver
stop working yesterday).
we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA to
disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which will
manage the writing to tapes.
so all of this step is more for getting rid of the 3590 not Tapes from the
cost aspect .


On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:29 AM, Gibney, Dave  wrote:

 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of John McKown
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 16:20 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
 


Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
   


companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
 


I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users.
   


However I
   


am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend
   


or
   


staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are
saying disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming
   


cheaper
   


so its not impossible that this might be happening.


From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share

disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
decreasing all that much. I would like to hear from the list what
their thoughts are about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe
happening. Soon/not in the next 20 years/never.

Ed
   


I often wonder how these non-tape users address things like 10 year
archival copies of programs, data, and reports. Which we need for
 


legal
   


reasons.
 


DFHSM with SMS MGMTCLAS controlled retention.
We also have Control-D for report management and CA-Endevor for source
management.

   


--
John McKown
Maranatha! <><

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Pommier, Rex R.]

Rick,

I would hedge my bets on the CD-ROM or DVD long-term archival method.
I've seen estimates that range from 100's of year life expectancy on
this media type all the way down to 2-3 years is all the longer you can
expect to reliably read data off them.  One place even said you should
put the burned CDs or DVDs in zip-lock bags and put them in the freezer
to extend their shelf life!

A lot of it will depend on the media and the actual recording techniques
used.  I personally wouldn't trust the "dirt-cheap" media for very long
- from personal experience.  My wife put together a slide show for her
parents' 50th wedding anniversary.  She burned about 30 copies of the
DVD after creating it.  After 2 years most of the burned copies were
having read errors and after 3 they were all completely unusable.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?

Have you considered burning CD-ROMs or DVDs for storage, rather than 
tape? Drives can be less expensive, the media is dirt cheap compared to 
tape and for historical purposes the result will probably last far
longer.

Rick

---
Matan Cohen wrote:

>As a small develop company which don't use the tape to archive only for
>backups.
>We are in the processing of get rid of our 3590 (actually the tape
driver
> stop working yesterday).
>we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA
to
>disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which
will
>manage the writing to tapes.
>so all of this step is more for getting rid of the 3590 not Tapes from
the
>cost aspect .
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:29 AM, Gibney, Dave  wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
>>>Behalf Of John McKown
>>>Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:38 PM
>>>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>>>Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
>>>
>>>On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 16:20 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
>>>>
>>>>
>>>companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
>>>  
>>>
>>>>I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>However I
>>
>>
>>>> am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
>>>> mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend
>>>>
>>>>
>>or
>>
>>
>>>> staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
>>>> through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are
>>>> saying disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming
>>>>
>>>>
>>cheaper
>>
>>
>>>> so its not impossible that this might be happening.
>>>>
>>>>>From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
>>>> disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
>>>> decreasing all that much. I would like to hear from the list what
>>>> their thoughts are about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe
>>>> happening. Soon/not in the next 20 years/never.
>>>>
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I often wonder how these non-tape users address things like 10 year
>>>archival copies of programs, data, and reports. Which we need for
>>>  
>>>
>>legal
>>
>>
>>>reasons.
>>>  
>>>
>>DFHSM with SMS MGMTCLAS controlled retention.
>>We also have Control-D for report management and CA-Endevor for source
>>management.
>>
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>John McKown
>>>Maranatha! <><
>>>
>>>-
-
>>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>>send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN
INFO
>>>Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>>  
>>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>>Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>  
>


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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex R.
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> Rick,
> 
> I would hedge my bets on the CD-ROM or DVD long-term archival method.
> I've seen estimates that range from 100's of year life expectancy on
> this media type all the way down to 2-3 years is all the 
> longer you can
> expect to reliably read data off them.  One place even said you should
> put the burned CDs or DVDs in zip-lock bags and put them in 
> the freezer
> to extend their shelf life!
> 
> A lot of it will depend on the media and the actual recording 
> techniques
> used.  I personally wouldn't trust the "dirt-cheap" media for 
> very long
> - from personal experience.  My wife put together a slide show for her
> parents' 50th wedding anniversary.  She burned about 30 copies of the
> DVD after creating it.  After 2 years most of the burned copies were
> having read errors and after 3 they were all completely unusable.  
> 
> Rex

Long term data should be enscribed on granite and stored in the Egyptian 
desert. This is proven technology!

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Steve Comstock]

Rick Fochtman wrote:
Have you considered burning CD-ROMs or DVDs for storage, rather than 
tape? Drives can be less expensive, the media is dirt cheap compared to 
tape and for historical purposes the result will probably last far longer.


Rick


I don't know about that last. I seem to recall reading that CD/DVD media
may not have all that great a shelf life. Might be worth some research.


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Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

* To get a good Return on your Investment, first make an investment!
  + Training your people is an excellent investment


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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Mark Yuhas]

Replacing tape with disk?
Sounds like a great idea - if you have a large enough DASD farm.
DR would be simpler, too - if you have a large communication pipe to
your DR site.

However, once the powers-that-be see the cost, tape doesn't seem so bad.


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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Eric Bielefeld]

John,

Let me know how your proposal goes when you suggest that solution to your 
management.
--
Eric Bielefeld
Systems Programmer
IBM MVS Technical Services
Dubuque, Iowa
563-845-4363

 "McKown wrote: 
> 
> Long term data should be enscribed on granite and stored in the Egyptian 
> desert. This is proven technology!
> 
> --
> John McKown 
> Systems Engineer IV
> IT
> 
> Administrative Services Group

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[shai hess]

>>one idea we consider is to use Shai Hess product MFnetDisk (it is now
free)
>>to make a WINDOWS disk to be shown to the mainframe then to backup those
>>disk . MFnetdisk can also emulate tapes.
MFNetDisk supports Windows and Linux and Unix and more... attached disks.
You can dump and disks or files in MVS using DFDSS with the output file
store as tape file in MFNetDisk virtual tape stored in any PC (Linux or
Windows) or ZLinux.
Or you can store the DFDSS output to MFNetDisk disk emulation as DFDSS MVS
file.
Or you can use the DFDSS output file as real MVS 3390 disk with MFNetDisk
replication of the real 3390 to MFNetDisk virtual 3390 mirror with the DFDSS
data stored in PC storage.

>>we didn't use shai hess product cause we want to save the backup proccess
>>"simple" and not involve any other product then those usually supported by
>>the z/OS .

The ZOS will support the tapes and the disk emulation format using my
product because MFNetDisk emulation will emulate the IO as it done using IBM
disks or EMC disks. It is true that MFNetDisk is one man product and in the
far future this can be a problem (I hope I stay alive for many years with
ability to support MFNetDisk for many years but to make it sure I need more
users to use my product and to pray for my good health ( all religious are
welcome) in case of bug :)) .

These days I am taking care of my father. He sick with Alzheimer’s disease.
So in case of delay in my respond time please understand my situation.

Thanks,
Shai


Thanks,
Shai

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Matan Cohen wrote:

> AMATERSE takes to much time for us ... so we use XMIT .
> the secret is to perform DFDSS relese to the DFDSS dump datasets before
> running XMIT on them , this ensure the successful return of the datasets to
> MAINFRAME .
> the data isn't legible for Windown although there is some XMIT manager for
> window but it won't help you to much cause it's DFDSS DUMP those XMIT
> datasets contain. so they must be restored to the mainframe .
> one idea we consider is to use Shai Hess product MFnetDisk (it is now free)
>  to make a WINDOWS disk to be shown to the mainframe then to backup those
> disk . MFnetdisk can also emulate tapes.
> we didn't use shai hess product cause we want to save the backup proccess
> "simple" and not involve any other product then those usually supported by
> the z/OS .
>
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin  >wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:55:19 +0300, Matan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > >we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA
> to
> > >disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which
> will
> > >manage the writing to tapes.
> > >
> > What format for transfer to Windows without loss of data?  AMATERSE?
> > Other?  Are the data legible on Windows, or must they be restored
> > to mainframe?
> >
> > -- gil
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
> >
>
>
>
> --
> best regards,
> matan cohen
> MF System Administrator.
>
> --
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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Matan Cohen]

AMATERSE takes to much time for us ... so we use XMIT .
the secret is to perform DFDSS relese to the DFDSS dump datasets before
running XMIT on them , this ensure the successful return of the datasets to
MAINFRAME .
the data isn't legible for Windown although there is some XMIT manager for
window but it won't help you to much cause it's DFDSS DUMP those XMIT
datasets contain. so they must be restored to the mainframe .
one idea we consider is to use Shai Hess product MFnetDisk (it is now free)
 to make a WINDOWS disk to be shown to the mainframe then to backup those
disk . MFnetdisk can also emulate tapes.
we didn't use shai hess product cause we want to save the backup proccess
"simple" and not involve any other product then those usually supported by
the z/OS .

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:55:19 +0300, Matan Cohen wrote:
> >
> >we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA to
> >disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which will
> >manage the writing to tapes.
> >
> What format for transfer to Windows without loss of data?  AMATERSE?
> Other?  Are the data legible on Windows, or must they be restored
> to mainframe?
>
> -- gil
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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>



-- 
best regards,
matan cohen
MF System Administrator.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:55:19 +0300, Matan Cohen wrote:
>
>we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA to
>disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which will
>manage the writing to tapes.
>
What format for transfer to Windows without loss of data?  AMATERSE?
Other?  Are the data legible on Windows, or must they be restored
to mainframe?

-- gil

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Matan Cohen]

As a small develop company which don't use the tape to archive only for
backups.
We are in the processing of get rid of our 3590 (actually the tape driver
 stop working yesterday).
we found that it will be the best solution for us is to backup our DATA to
disk and then send it to other more cheaper platform (windows) which will
manage the writing to tapes.
so all of this step is more for getting rid of the 3590 not Tapes from the
cost aspect .


On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:29 AM, Gibney, Dave  wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
> > Behalf Of John McKown
> > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:38 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> > Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
> >
> > On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 16:20 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
> > > Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
> > companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
> > >
> > > I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users.
> However I
> > >  am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
> > >  mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend
> or
> > >  staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
> > >  through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are
> > >  saying disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming
> cheaper
> > >  so its not impossible that this might be happening.
> > >
> > > >From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
> > >  disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
> > >  decreasing all that much. I would like to hear from the list what
> > >  their thoughts are about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe
> > >  happening. Soon/not in the next 20 years/never.
> > >
> > > Ed
> >
> > I often wonder how these non-tape users address things like 10 year
> > archival copies of programs, data, and reports. Which we need for
> legal
> > reasons.
>
>
> DFHSM with SMS MGMTCLAS controlled retention.
> We also have Control-D for report management and CA-Endevor for source
> management.
>
> >
> > --
> > John McKown
> > Maranatha! <><
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>



-- 
best regards,
matan cohen
MF System Administrator.

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Gibney, Dave]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
> Behalf Of John McKown
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:38 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 16:20 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
> > Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
> companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
> >
> > I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users.
However I
> >  am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
> >  mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend
or
> >  staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
> >  through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are
> >  saying disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming
cheaper
> >  so its not impossible that this might be happening.
> >
> > >From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
> >  disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
> >  decreasing all that much. I would like to hear from the list what
> >  their thoughts are about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe
> >  happening. Soon/not in the next 20 years/never.
> >
> > Ed
> 
> I often wonder how these non-tape users address things like 10 year
> archival copies of programs, data, and reports. Which we need for
legal
> reasons.


DFHSM with SMS MGMTCLAS controlled retention. 
We also have Control-D for report management and CA-Endevor for source
management.

> 
> --
> John McKown
> Maranatha! <><
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[John McKown]

On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 16:20 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
> Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating companies 
> are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
> 
> I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users. However I
>  am seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
>  mainframes. I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend or
>  staying the same (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going
>  through the roof and that might be the reason why some people are
>  saying disk is replacing tape. Disk space is really becoming cheaper
>  so its not impossible that this might be happening. 
> 
> >From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
>  disk drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really
>  decreasing all that much. I would like to hear from the list what
>  their thoughts are about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe
>  happening. Soon/not in the next 20 years/never.
> 
> Ed

I often wonder how these non-tape users address things like 10 year
archival copies of programs, data, and reports. Which we need for legal
reasons.

-- 
John McKown
Maranatha! <><

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Re: Disk replacing Tape?

[Gibney, Dave]

Fully replaced physical tape with virtual around five years ago. 

Aside from a couple external data exchange (long replced with ftp) we
replaced tape with DASD for all but back-up (no application use of tape)
more like ten years ago.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
> Behalf Of Ed Gould
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:20 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Disk replacing Tape?
> 
> Over the last few years I have seen more and more articles stating
> companies are replacing tape drives with disk drives.
> 
> I realize that most of the talk is from small computer users. However
I am
> seeing and hearing stories that the movement has started with
mainframes.
> I was wondering if anyone on here is seeing that trend or staying the
same
> (or increasing). Now I know tape capacity is going through the roof
and
> that might be the reason why some people are saying disk is replacing
> tape. Disk space is really becoming cheaper so its not impossible that
> this might be happening.
> 
> From my (admittedly dated) perspective, until the ability to share
disk
> drives (transparently) I do not see the use of tape really decreasing
all
> that much. I would like to hear from the list what their thoughts are
> about disk replacing tapes on the mainframe happening. Soon/not in the
> next 20 years/never.
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> 
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