Re: Markup languages: LaTeX and internal links

[Rupert Reynolds]

I can't answer your specific query, but when I added the hyperref package,
TOC entries became links, and I could add http: and mailto: links, such as
as

\href{http://www.latex-tutorial.com}{LaTeX-Tutorial} and I suspect there is
syntax for an internal \href that I haven't found yet. I have used PDFs
that seem to be made by LaTeX and which manage it, anyway.


I included this after the title page bumph and before the \begin{document}
line:-

\usepackage{hyperref}
\hypersetup{

colorlinks=true,

linkcolor=blue,

filecolor=magenta,

urlcolor=cyan,

pdftitle={Overleaf Example},

pdfpagemode=FullScreen,

}

I am still a novice, but that above gave me something I can work with. That
was in a book i.e. using something like

\documentclass[12pt, a4paper]{book}


I still haven't found out if any other documentclass supports a TOC and
\chapter (as well as \section ), but I have a funny feeling {report} does.


Roops



On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 at 16:20, Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Back to markup languages:  How do I get LaTex to create internal links?  Or
> external links either, for that matter?
>
> I now have a copy of LaTex with MiKTeX, and have been reading the
> documentation and experimenting.  I like what I see so far.  But nowhere in
> the documentation can I find any reference to internal hyperlinks.  All
> mentions of cross-references seem to mean simply text that says "see page
> 12" or "...chapter 5" or "...figure 8.3".  I'm all for that, but I want the
> reader to be able to click on "see Section 5.13" and jump straight to it
> If
> I can't do it in LaTeX, it's a deal-breaker.  It must be possible, I'm
> sure,
> but where is it documented?
>
>

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Re: Markup languages: LaTeX and internal links

[Bob Bridges]

Yeah, this looks like it'll help, thanks.  I downloaded that package (and a
~bunch~ of styles came with it), but then got hung up on trying to modify
the way it displays chapter headings; that, I gather, is the titlesec
package, for which the documentation is truly execrable.  I'll be back to
links soon, I hope.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* So numerous indeed and so powerful are the causes which serve to give a
false bias to the judgment, that we, upon many occasions, see wise and good
men on the wrong as well as on the right side of questions of the first
magnitude to society.  This circumstance, if duly attended to, would furnish
a lesson of moderation to those who are ever so much persuaded of their
being in the right in any controversy.  -Alexander Hamilton, from the first
of The Federalist Papers */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Mark Jacobs
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2023 13:54

Is this what you're looking to do?

https://latex-tutorial.com/tutorials/hyperlinks/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Mike Beer
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2023 11:50

LaTex can be expanded by using packages.
One that might help is you this one:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Hyperlinks

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  Im Auftrag von
Bob Bridges
Gesendet: Sunday, January 01, 2023 17:20

Back to markup languages:  How do I get LaTex to create internal links?  Or
external links either, for that matter?

I now have a copy of LaTex with MiKTeX, and have been reading the
documentation and experimenting.  I like what I see so far.  But nowhere in
the documentation can I find any reference to internal hyperlinks.  All
mentions of cross-references seem to mean simply text that says "see page
12" or "...chapter 5" or "...figure 8.3".  I'm all for that, but I want the
reader to be able to click on "see Section 5.13" and jump straight to it  If
I can't do it in LaTeX, it's a deal-breaker.  It must be possible, I'm sure,
but where is it documented?

As I understand it:
- TeX is a basic typesetting program.
- LaTeX is an extension to TeX; I gather it overrides some TeX behaviors and
adds others, by adding
  packaged definitions written in TeX.
- LaTeX2e is a significant update to LaTeX.
- MiKTeX is an editor that simplifies writing LaTeX documents.

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Re: Markup languages: LaTeX and internal links

[Mark Jacobs]

Is this what you're looking to do?

https://latex-tutorial.com/tutorials/hyperlinks/

Mark Jacobs 

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

GPG Public Key - 
https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com


--- Original Message ---
On Sunday, January 1st, 2023 at 11:20 AM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:


> Back to markup languages: How do I get LaTex to create internal links? Or
> external links either, for that matter?
> 
> I now have a copy of LaTex with MiKTeX, and have been reading the
> documentation and experimenting. I like what I see so far. But nowhere in
> the documentation can I find any reference to internal hyperlinks. All
> mentions of cross-references seem to mean simply text that says "see page
> 12" or "...chapter 5" or "...figure 8.3". I'm all for that, but I want the
> reader to be able to click on "see Section 5.13" and jump straight to it If
> I can't do it in LaTeX, it's a deal-breaker. It must be possible, I'm sure,
> but where is it documented?
> 
> As I understand it:
> - TeX is a basic typesetting program.
> - LaTeX is an extension to TeX; I gather it overrides some TeX behaviors and
> adds others, by adding
> packaged definitions written in TeX.
> - LaTeX2e is a significant update to LaTeX.
> - MiKTeX is an editor that simplifies writing LaTeX documents.
> 
> After downloading and installing MiKTeX I discovered that it didn't have
> much in the way of LaTeX documentation, so I hunted around on the web. I've
> read:
> 
> - Most of "LaTeX / A document preparation system / User's guide and
> reference manual" by Leslie Lamport; looks like a document that was scanned
> and then run through OCR to translate it to PDF. No PDF bookmarks.
> 
> - Some of "LaTeX2e for authors" and "New LATEX methods for authors (starting
> 2020)", both of which seem to be more in the way of summaries than manuals.
> 
> - I skimmed through "MikTeX Manual / Revision 4.6" by Christian Schenk.
> This seems to focus on commands that I suppose are executed from the DOS
> window, so I didn't pay close attention; that may be where I'm going wrong.
> 
> - "A short manual for TeXworks (lowering the entry barrier to the TeX
> world)" by Alain Delmotte, Stefan Löffler, and others; I haven't looked at
> this one yet, believing it to be irrelevant to my question.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"? Put your thinking caps on.
> What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by hate or
> prejudice? Answer: We need thought police. -from "See, I Told You So" by
> Rush Limbaugh */
> 
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Re: Markup languages: LaTeX and internal links

[Seymour J Metz]

LaTeX documentation i downloaded:

m:\pdf\ctan\latex\aliascnt.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\array.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\babel\babel.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\babel\english.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\babel\README
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\babel\README.md
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\backref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\biblatex.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\bidi-doc.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\bm.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\booktabs.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\CDGuide06.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\chemfig-en.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\classes.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\cleveref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\clsguide.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\crossreftools_doc.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\cygwin-ug-net.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\diagxy\barrdoc.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\diagxy\diaxydoc.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\diagxy\xyguide.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\diagxy\xypdf.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\diagxy\xyrefer.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\docstrip.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\encguide.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\enumerate.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\enumitem.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\etoolbox.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\CHANGELOG.md
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3galley.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\CHANGELOG.md
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\expl3.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\interface3.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\l3docstrip.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\l3news.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\l3prefixes.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\l3styleguide.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\l3syntax-changes.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\l3term-glossary.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\README.md
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3kernel\source3.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3keys2e.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3news.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3str\l3str-format.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\l3str\l3tl-build.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\README.md
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\xcoffins.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\xgalley.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\xparse.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\expl3\xtemplate.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\fdsymbol.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\fontspec.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\genealogytree.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\geometry.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\graphics.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\graphicx.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\GSWLaTeX.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hhline.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\backref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\ChangeLog.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\ChangeLog.txt
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\hyperref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\manual.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\nameref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\options.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\paper.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\README.md
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\README.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\hyperref\slides.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\iflang.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\ifthen.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\inputenc.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\LaTeX-Course.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latex-doc-ptr.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latex.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latex2e.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latexchanges.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latexrelease.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latexsym.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\latex_handout.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\LaTeX_symbols.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\listings.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\longtable.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\lshort.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\makeindex.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\makeindx.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\manual.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\mathtools.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\miktex.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\MiKTeX\miktex.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\MiKTeX\TeXworks-manual.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\needspace.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\scalerel.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\showkeys.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\showlabels.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\slides.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stackrel.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix2.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\stix.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\stix2.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_2.0.0_license.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_2.0.0_release_notes.txt
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_2.0.0_stylistic_sets.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_Font_1.1.1-latex_Release_Documentation.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_Font_1.1.1_Release_Documentation.doc
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_Font_1.1.1_Release_Documentation.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\stix\STIX_Font_License_2010.txt
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\supertabular.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\symbols-a4.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\symbols-letter.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tabu.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tabularx.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\thmtools.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tikz\pgfmanual.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tikz\tikz-cd-doc.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tikz\tikzpagenodes.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tlc2-ch0.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tlc2.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\tools-overview.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\usrguide.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\varioref.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\xstring-en.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\xstring_doc_en.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\xtab.pdf
m:\pdf\ctan\latex\zref.pdf



--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Markup languages: LaTeX and internal links

Back to markup languages:  How do I get LaTex to create internal links?  

Re: Markup languages: LaTeX and internal links

[John McKown]

Does this help?
https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/581529/hyperlinks-to-a-separate-pdf-document

On Sun, Jan 1, 2023, 10:21 Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Back to markup languages:  How do I get LaTex to create internal links?  Or
> external links either, for that matter?
>
> I now have a copy of LaTex with MiKTeX, and have been reading the
> documentation and experimenting.  I like what I see so far.  But nowhere in
> the documentation can I find any reference to internal hyperlinks.  All
> mentions of cross-references seem to mean simply text that says "see page
> 12" or "...chapter 5" or "...figure 8.3".  I'm all for that, but I want the
> reader to be able to click on "see Section 5.13" and jump straight to it
> If
> I can't do it in LaTeX, it's a deal-breaker.  It must be possible, I'm
> sure,
> but where is it documented?
>
> As I understand it:
> - TeX is a basic typesetting program.
> - LaTeX is an extension to TeX; I gather it overrides some TeX behaviors
> and
> adds others, by adding
>   packaged definitions written in TeX.
> - LaTeX2e is a significant update to LaTeX.
> - MiKTeX is an editor that simplifies writing LaTeX documents.
>
> After downloading and installing MiKTeX I discovered that it didn't have
> much in the way of LaTeX documentation, so I hunted around on the web.
> I've
> read:
>
> - Most of "LaTeX / A document preparation system / User's guide and
> reference manual" by Leslie Lamport; looks like a document that was scanned
> and then run through OCR to translate it to PDF.  No PDF bookmarks.
>
> - Some of "LaTeX2e for authors" and "New LATEX methods for authors
> (starting
> 2020)", both of which seem to be more in the way of summaries than manuals.
>
> - I skimmed through "MikTeX Manual / Revision 4.6" by Christian Schenk.
> This seems to focus on commands that I suppose are executed from the DOS
> window, so I didn't pay close attention; that may be where I'm going wrong.
>
> - "A short manual for TeXworks (lowering the entry barrier to the TeX
> world)" by Alain Delmotte, Stefan Löffler, and others; I haven't looked at
> this one yet, believing it to be irrelevant to my question.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps on.
> What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by hate or
> prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You So" by
> Rush Limbaugh */
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

I am definitely planning to write macros ... eventually.  Clients pay me to
work in z/OS security, but I'm a coder at heart (so most of my security work
is writing tools to automate my work and others').  But just now I'm busy
with the basics: page margins, section formatting, that kind of thing; it'll
be a while before I can expand.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* -from Abbott & Costello's famous "Who's on First?" routine
Costello:  All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.
Abbott:  "Who".
Costello:  Who gets the money?
Abbott:  He does, every dollar of it.  Sometimes his wife comes down
and collects it.
Costello:  Whose wife?
Abbott:  Yes. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 10:09

If you're writing macros I suggest that you look into LaTeX3 (expl3 et al).
Some relevant documentatin is

expl3.pdf
interface3.pdf
l3styleguide.pdf
l3syntax-changes.pd
l3keys2e.pdf
l3str\l3str-format.pdf
xcoffins.pdf
xgalley.pdf
xparse.pdf
xtemplate.pdf

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

No, it's because it was so much less powerful than DCF and had a clunky screen 
layout. That was before the ordeal of m$ office, which caused me to appreciate 
WP more.

However, autodefect does certainly introduce some startling sea changes. How 
about on-the-fly spell checking with an audible alarm for suggested 
alternatives? ISAGN.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Pommier, Rex [rpomm...@sfgmembers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Shmuel,

Peter is asking why you called WordPerfect "word pervert".  I'm guessing it was 
an autocorrect thing...

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 6:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Markup languages

?

Actually, it's m$ word that I criticize. Not that WP didn't have serious 
issues, but IMHO it is clearly the better of the two products. But I had access 
to BookMaster when I was using WP.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F*smetz3__%3Bfg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!r-vY46NSt0XUC7U8wEZ8_d8upKflX7NaldVlpJjbuhGS_WCIPS6iNXJB7TFA5B8tjNWYqQz0WQu54-_mTQ%24=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca66f3742a5f2465e4c2008dae8185923%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638077488512643678%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=PR6IeuI%2FvTqyoFtBcRRyjAb1dPqVJvXk5jp3F17HP6w%3D=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 7:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Shmuel,

Why did you slander Worperfect like that?  What did it ever do to you?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 8:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built on 
BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find powerful 
but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I attempt 
to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup horribly. Is 
there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that would allow me to 
correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up with is to copy the 
entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out 
resources at CTAN.
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

If you're writing macros I suggest that you look into LaTeX3 (expl3 et al). 
Some relevant documentatin is

expl3.pdf
interface3.pdf
l3styleguide.pdf
l3syntax-changes.pd
l3keys2e.pdf
l3str\l3str-format.pdf
xcoffins.pdf
xgalley.pdf
xparse.pdf
xtemplate.pdf

There are lots of LaTeX tools available for Linux. Check texlive* in your 
repository for starters.


Old? I was using Script before EasyScript and GML. Lot's of macros, and my 
change bars included dates.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Colin Paice [colinpai...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 3:23 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

It may be horses for courses...

   1. What needs to be supported Windows/Mac/Linux?
   2. Do you want a few page document or a 200 page document and imbed
   other sections
   3. Do you want to be able to print chapters, or just the whole book.
   4. Do you table of contents
   5. Do you want change bars to show you what has changed
   6. What is your output - PDF,  one HTML document - an HTML tree?
   7. Number of concurrent maintainers so 1) & 2)  are relevant


I run on Linux, which limits my choice of tools.

I've used Latex to write a 200 page document.   If you think of Scriptvs,
and book master, you'll get the idea.  You can write macros to provide
complex formatting.
It allows you to have change bars to show you what's changed. You have to
add them manually.
I use  reText as editor, and real time review

You can tell how old I am when my brain thinks of ":p:h1 " when
marking up a document

Colin



On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 at 14:45, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> TeX is the underlying language. I believe that most people use a document
> development environment with an editor and preview facility. Some of the
> available environments can automatically download required packages from
> CTAN. It is possible to generate a PDF without an intermediate DVI file.
>
> I'd start by looking at MiKTeX, TeX Live and TeXworks, or browse CTAN.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 6:38 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Markup languages
>
> I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this
> question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm
> looking hard at LaTeX.  I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but
> that
> was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by
> his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I
> can't parse with confidence.  I imagine whatever documentation comes with
> the download will be clearer.
>
> But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch.  I get the
> impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what?
> A
> series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more?  And I need a program
> that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document,
> and/or to a PDF file.  And most people use a text editor specifically
> dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are
> mentioned.  Do you have any specific recommendations?  Because I think I'm
> about ready to download and experiment.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
> resents.  -G C Lichtenberg */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39
>
> My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built
> on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find
> powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script.
>
> I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I
> attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup
> horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that
> would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up
> with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.
>
> I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out
> resources at CTAN.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
&

Re: Markup languages

[Pommier, Rex]

Shmuel,

Peter is asking why you called WordPerfect "word pervert".  I'm guessing it was 
an autocorrect thing...

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 6:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Markup languages

?

Actually, it's m$ word that I criticize. Not that WP didn't have serious 
issues, but IMHO it is clearly the better of the two products. But I had access 
to BookMaster when I was using WP.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!r-vY46NSt0XUC7U8wEZ8_d8upKflX7NaldVlpJjbuhGS_WCIPS6iNXJB7TFA5B8tjNWYqQz0WQu54-_mTQ$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 7:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Shmuel,

Why did you slander Worperfect like that?  What did it ever do to you?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 8:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built on 
BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find powerful 
but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I attempt 
to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup horribly. Is 
there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that would allow me to 
correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up with is to copy the 
entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out 
resources at CTAN.
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

If you're using windoze you might want to look at MiKTeX, which can 
automatically download packages as you need them.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Rupert Reynolds [rreyno...@cix.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 6:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, 08:23 Colin Paice,  wrote:
...

>
> You can tell how old I am when my brain thinks of ":p:h1 " when
> marking up a document
>
> Colin
>

Yes, those GML tags still come to mind. In my head I also ".kp on" and ".kp
off" around sections I want to keep together on one page, and I think of
the simple .fnot macro I wrote so I could dump footnotes about a new term
without distracting myself.

This has been a productive thread for me :-)

I've been playing with LaTeX (have we aegued about how to pronounce that,
yet? ;-) ) and used \documentclass[12pt, a4paper]{article} and {book} to
play a bit.
So far, {article} doesn't do a TOC and {book} lays it out like, well, a
book.

I've got hyperlinks in blue, matrices and other maths stuff, paragraphs
with no indent and monospaced code examples using \verbatim.

Installed 'texlive' on Linux Mint and TeXworks on Windows and it all seems
to work pretty well :-)

So thanks for a good thread.

Roops

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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

Yes, I suspect that once I know a good deal more about LaTeX I'll be creating a 
new class in a file named docrhb.cls.  But I'm nowhere near that yet.  For now 
I'm still experimenting with {report} just so I can see what the various 
commands do.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Happiness is the absence of the striving for happiness.  -Chuang-tzu (BC 
350) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rupert Reynolds
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 06:59

I've been playing with LaTeX...and used \documentclass[12pt, a4paper]{article} 
and {book} to play a bit.
So far, {article} doesn't do a TOC and {book} lays it out like, well, a book.

I've got hyperlinks in blue, matrices and other maths stuff, paragraphs with no 
indent and monospaced code examples using \verbatim.

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Re: Markup languages

[Rupert Reynolds]

In fact I think TeXworks on Win came with texlive (install-tl-windows.exe).

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, 11:59 Rupert Reynolds,  wrote:

>
> Installed 'texlive' on Linux Mint and TeXworks on Windows and it all seems
> to work pretty well :-)
>
> So thanks for a good thread.
>
> Roops
>

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Re: Markup languages

[Rupert Reynolds]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, 08:23 Colin Paice,  wrote:
...

>
> You can tell how old I am when my brain thinks of ":p:h1 " when
> marking up a document
>
> Colin
>

Yes, those GML tags still come to mind. In my head I also ".kp on" and ".kp
off" around sections I want to keep together on one page, and I think of
the simple .fnot macro I wrote so I could dump footnotes about a new term
without distracting myself.

This has been a productive thread for me :-)

I've been playing with LaTeX (have we aegued about how to pronounce that,
yet? ;-) ) and used \documentclass[12pt, a4paper]{article} and {book} to
play a bit.
So far, {article} doesn't do a TOC and {book} lays it out like, well, a
book.

I've got hyperlinks in blue, matrices and other maths stuff, paragraphs
with no indent and monospaced code examples using \verbatim.

Installed 'texlive' on Linux Mint and TeXworks on Windows and it all seems
to work pretty well :-)

So thanks for a good thread.

Roops

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Re: Markup languages

[Robin Vowels]

I used an early version of Word for Windows for writing
a 1,000-page document.   No mark-up language required.
It also produced automatically the index.
When I wanted to put more entries in the index,
it was a minute's work.  Then press F8 and the entire index
was regenerated as a Word document in about two minutes.

On 2022-12-27 19:23, Colin Paice wrote:

It may be horses for courses...

   1. What needs to be supported Windows/Mac/Linux?
   2. Do you want a few page document or a 200 page document and imbed
   other sections
   3. Do you want to be able to print chapters, or just the whole book.
   4. Do you table of contents
   5. Do you want change bars to show you what has changed
   6. What is your output - PDF,  one HTML document - an HTML tree?
   7. Number of concurrent maintainers so 1) & 2)  are relevant


I run on Linux, which limits my choice of tools.

I've used Latex to write a 200 page document.   If you think of 
Scriptvs,

and book master, you'll get the idea.  You can write macros to provide
complex formatting.
It allows you to have change bars to show you what's changed. You have 
to

add them manually.
I use  reText as editor, and real time review

You can tell how old I am when my brain thinks of ":p:h1 " when
marking up a document

Colin


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Re: Markup languages

[Colin Paice]

Correction

ReText for markdown  ## heading etc.  Does WYSIWYG
Gummi for Latex

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 at 08:23, Colin Paice  wrote:

> It may be horses for courses...
>
>1. What needs to be supported Windows/Mac/Linux?
>2. Do you want a few page document or a 200 page document and imbed
>other sections
>3. Do you want to be able to print chapters, or just the whole book.
>4. Do you table of contents
>5. Do you want change bars to show you what has changed
>6. What is your output - PDF,  one HTML document - an HTML tree?
>7. Number of concurrent maintainers so 1) & 2)  are relevant
>
>
> I run on Linux, which limits my choice of tools.
>
> I've used Latex to write a 200 page document.   If you think of Scriptvs,
> and book master, you'll get the idea.  You can write macros to provide
> complex formatting.
> It allows you to have change bars to show you what's changed. You have to
> add them manually.
> I use  reText as editor, and real time review
>
> You can tell how old I am when my brain thinks of ":p:h1 " when
> marking up a document
>
> Colin
>
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 at 14:45, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
>> TeX is the underlying language. I believe that most people use a document
>> development environment with an editor and preview facility. Some of the
>> available environments can automatically download required packages from
>> CTAN. It is possible to generate a PDF without an intermediate DVI file.
>>
>> I'd start by looking at MiKTeX, TeX Live and TeXworks, or browse CTAN.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
>> of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 6:38 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Markup languages
>>
>> I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this
>> question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently
>> I'm
>> looking hard at LaTeX.  I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but
>> that
>> was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by
>> his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I
>> can't parse with confidence.  I imagine whatever documentation comes with
>> the download will be clearer.
>>
>> But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch.  I get the
>> impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ...
>> what?  A
>> series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more?  And I need a program
>> that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document,
>> and/or to a PDF file.  And most people use a text editor specifically
>> dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are
>> mentioned.  Do you have any specific recommendations?  Because I think I'm
>> about ready to download and experiment.
>>
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>
>> /* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
>> resents.  -G C Lichtenberg */
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
>> Of
>> Seymour J Metz
>> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39
>>
>> My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is
>> built
>> on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find
>> powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script.
>>
>> I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I
>> attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup
>> horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that
>> would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come
>> up
>> with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.
>>
>> I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out
>> resources at CTAN.
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>

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Re: Markup languages

[Colin Paice]

It may be horses for courses...

   1. What needs to be supported Windows/Mac/Linux?
   2. Do you want a few page document or a 200 page document and imbed
   other sections
   3. Do you want to be able to print chapters, or just the whole book.
   4. Do you table of contents
   5. Do you want change bars to show you what has changed
   6. What is your output - PDF,  one HTML document - an HTML tree?
   7. Number of concurrent maintainers so 1) & 2)  are relevant


I run on Linux, which limits my choice of tools.

I've used Latex to write a 200 page document.   If you think of Scriptvs,
and book master, you'll get the idea.  You can write macros to provide
complex formatting.
It allows you to have change bars to show you what's changed. You have to
add them manually.
I use  reText as editor, and real time review

You can tell how old I am when my brain thinks of ":p:h1 " when
marking up a document

Colin



On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 at 14:45, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> TeX is the underlying language. I believe that most people use a document
> development environment with an editor and preview facility. Some of the
> available environments can automatically download required packages from
> CTAN. It is possible to generate a PDF without an intermediate DVI file.
>
> I'd start by looking at MiKTeX, TeX Live and TeXworks, or browse CTAN.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 6:38 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Markup languages
>
> I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this
> question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm
> looking hard at LaTeX.  I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but
> that
> was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by
> his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I
> can't parse with confidence.  I imagine whatever documentation comes with
> the download will be clearer.
>
> But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch.  I get the
> impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what?
> A
> series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more?  And I need a program
> that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document,
> and/or to a PDF file.  And most people use a text editor specifically
> dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are
> mentioned.  Do you have any specific recommendations?  Because I think I'm
> about ready to download and experiment.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
> resents.  -G C Lichtenberg */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39
>
> My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built
> on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find
> powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script.
>
> I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I
> attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup
> horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that
> would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up
> with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.
>
> I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out
> resources at CTAN.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[David Crayford]

On 27/12/22 10:43, Ed Jaffe wrote:
My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but 
there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats 
including PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or 
Javascript so there is a massive eco-system to pull from.



For many years we used MS Word for our product documentation, but it 
was just too buggy and cumbersome.


Our team now uses MadCap Flare. It's a "best of breed" solution 
specifically designed for technical documentation.


https://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/

We use it to deliver our documentation in three formats: Adobe PDF, 
HTML, and Eclipse plug-ins that can be used with IBM InfoCenter and 
KnowledgeCenter (including KC4Z on z/OS)


Looks great! It supports DITA which we use for our IBM marketed products 
that get published on KC. I like that it has extensive build automation 
including a CLI so integrating into a DevOps pipeline using Jenkins or 
other build automation is simple.


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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Ed Jaffe]

On 12/26/2022 6:17 PM, David Crayford wrote:


My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but 
there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats 
including PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or 
Javascript so there is a massive eco-system to pull from.



For many years we used MS Word for our product documentation, but it was 
just too buggy and cumbersome.


Our team now uses MadCap Flare. It's a "best of breed" solution 
specifically designed for technical documentation.


https://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/

We use it to deliver our documentation in three formats: Adobe PDF, 
HTML, and Eclipse plug-ins that can be used with IBM InfoCenter and 
KnowledgeCenter (including KC4Z on z/OS).



--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[David Crayford]

MS Word is a great product for it's main use case. I don't consider it a 
good choice for technical documentation and neither does the Information 
Developer in my team. There are many better tools out there, some of 
which are free. Documentation in today's world can be published in many 
different formats. Text documents, HTML, PDF etc. Documentation should 
be considered code, which is why markdown is so popular. Documentation 
should go through the same development pipeline as source code with a 
pull request and a code review before being committed to a SCM and 
rendered into product artifacts. MS Word is useless for team 
collaboration. It's ok for a one person team but doesn't scale.


My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but 
there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats including 
PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or Javascript 
so there is a massive eco-system to pull from.


On 27/12/22 00:54, Charles Mills wrote:

I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for Microsoft 
on a mainframe forum.

However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been 
composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and 
indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 6:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for 
other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an 
editor for LateX) and reading documentatino.  Finding the documentation was a 
bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, but 
the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim they're 
about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX.  I have a lot of reading yet to do.

This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as PDF.  
Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of the ToC and 
jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, omitting the 
Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with it.

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Bob Bridges]

In fact I did not.  Good point.  It happens I'm still logged on at the client 
cite; let's try it there...

Nope, same problem.  Nevertheless I was hasty to blame Word; it's very possible 
I just didn't set it up correctly in the .docx format.  I know better than to 
manually set formatting and believe it's the same as defining and using styles, 
but there may even so be mistakes in my work.

Still, though; if I'm going to make that kind of mistake in Word, I think I'm 
better off using a markup language instead.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...the director and the writers keep changing the script.  The actors will 
do a scene, and the director will say, "OK, that was perfect, but this time, 
Bob, instead of saying 'What's for dinner?' you say, 'Wait a minute!  Benzene 
is actually a hydrocarbon!'  And say it with a Norwegian accent.  Also, we 
think maybe your character should have no arms."  -Dave Barry, describing his 
acting debut in "Dave's World" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 14:52

Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word.  Did you bother to see that 
the file you received was identical to the file you mailed?

--- On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote:
>This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it 
>as PDF.  Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of 
>the ToC and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second 
>chapter, omitting the Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is 
>wrong with it.

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Peter Sylvester]

On 26/12/2022 20:52, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote:

...
This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as
PDF.  Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of the ToC
and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter,
omitting the Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with it.


Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word.  Did you bother to see
that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed?


File not saved before email?

table of contents was not updated before save?

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote:
>...
>This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as
>PDF.  Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of the ToC
>and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter,
>omitting the Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with it.
>
Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word.  Did you bother to see
that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed?

-- 
gil

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Peter Sylvester]

On 26/12/2022 17:54, Charles Mills wrote:

I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for Microsoft 
on a mainframe forum.

However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been 
composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and 
indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success.

Charles



We seem to share a similar experience.  :-)

Peter



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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Charles Mills]

I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for Microsoft 
on a mainframe forum.

However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been 
composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and 
indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 6:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for 
other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an 
editor for LateX) and reading documentatino.  Finding the documentation was a 
bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, but 
the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim they're 
about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX.  I have a lot of reading yet to do.

This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as PDF.  
Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of the ToC and 
jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, omitting the 
Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with it.

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Seymour J Metz]

If you will be writing your own macros, I'd suggest looking at expl3 (LaTeX 3) 
and friends; still experimental, but quite handy.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 9:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for
other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an
editor for LateX) and reading documentatino.  Finding the documentation was
a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need,
but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim
they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX.  I have a lot of reading
yet to do.

This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as
PDF.  Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of the ToC
and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter,
omitting the Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with
it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do right, and God's recompense to you will be the power of doing more
right.  Give, and God's reward to you will be the spirit of giving
moreLove, and God will pay you with the capacity of more love  -F W
Robertson */

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Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word

[Bob Bridges]

Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for
other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an
editor for LateX) and reading documentatino.  Finding the documentation was
a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need,
but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim
they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX.  I have a lot of reading
yet to do.

This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as
PDF.  Turns out Word is awful at that too.  It skipped over most of the ToC
and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter,
omitting the Intro.  I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with
it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do right, and God's recompense to you will be the power of doing more
right.  Give, and God's reward to you will be the spirit of giving
moreLove, and God will pay you with the capacity of more love  -F W
Robertson */

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

TeX is the underlying language. I believe that most people use a document 
development environment with an editor and preview facility. Some of the 
available environments can automatically download required packages from CTAN. 
It is possible to generate a PDF without an intermediate DVI file.

I'd start by looking at MiKTeX, TeX Live and TeXworks, or browse CTAN.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 6:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this
question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm
looking hard at LaTeX.  I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but that
was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by
his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I
can't parse with confidence.  I imagine whatever documentation comes with
the download will be clearer.

But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch.  I get the
impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what?  A
series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more?  And I need a program
that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document,
and/or to a PDF file.  And most people use a text editor specifically
dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are
mentioned.  Do you have any specific recommendations?  Because I think I'm
about ready to download and experiment.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
resents.  -G C Lichtenberg */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built
on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find
powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I
attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup
horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that
would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up
with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out
resources at CTAN.

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

I doubt it, since mark was primarily interested in XEDIT compatibility. 
Similarly, I don't expect to see a chart comparint e.g., ooRexx, Regina, to 
KEXX.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2022 3:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, at 12:51, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> emacs
> THE
> vi
> ...

I've never used either  emacs  or  vi  and don't much want to have to
learn another text editor's command set.

Regarding THE, is there a list anywhere of what the differences between
it and Kedit are?  Wading through the THE documentation looking at
each command is tedious, and it's not helped by finding out that some
things are labelled "(not implemented)".


> You may have my copy of TSPF when they pry it out of my cold, dead
> fingers.

I suspect that actually getting it from your estate might be tricky

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, at 12:51, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> emacs
> THE
> vi
> ...

I've never used either  emacs  or  vi  and don't much want to have to
learn another text editor's command set.

Regarding THE, is there a list anywhere of what the differences between
it and Kedit are?  Wading through the THE documentation looking at
each command is tedious, and it's not helped by finding out that some
things are labelled "(not implemented)".


> You may have my copy of TSPF when they pry it out of my cold, dead 
> fingers.

I suspect that actually getting it from your estate might be tricky

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 16:01:04 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Steep learning curve? DocBook looks pretty simple.
>
That would imply a steep learning curve, wouldn't it?

-- 
gil

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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

Yeah, that's what he said:  "Steep".  So you learn fast and easily.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* November: John Kerry easily sweeps to a 53-state landslide victory in the
exit polls and has pretty much picked out his new Cabinet when word begins
to leak out that the actual, physical voters have elected George W. Bush.
Democrats struggle to understand how this could have happened, and, after
undergoing a harsh and unsparing self-examination, conclude that red-state
residents are morons. Some Democrats threaten to move to Canada;
Republicans, in a gracious gesture of reconciliation, offer to help them
pack.  -Dave Barry, 2004 in Review */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 11:01

Steep learning curve? DocBook looks pretty simple.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Kirk Wolf 
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 10:46 AM

Years ago we looked for a tool set for our documentation with the
requirements:

- produce decent PDFs and HTML documentation from same source
- text source (preferably XML)
- open source and portable
- NOT Word or anything like it

We ended up using the docbook framework from Apache (DBF), which is a set of
Java/XSLT/Ant tools.   It's not perfect, but it's very good for our needs.

Downsides:
- steep learning curve: setup and learning the XML elements

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Re: Markup languages

[Kirk Wolf]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Steep learning curve? DocBook looks pretty simple.
> 

Of course I didn't mean you :-)

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies, LLC
http://coztoolkit.com

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

Steep learning curve? DocBook looks pretty simple.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Kirk Wolf 
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 10:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Years ago we looked for a tool set for our documentation with the requirements:

- produce decent PDFs and HTML documentation from same source
- text source (preferably XML)
- open source and portable
- NOT Word or anything like it

We ended up using the docbook framework from Apache (DBF), which is a set of 
Java/XSLT/Ant tools.   It's not perfect, but it's very good for our needs.

You can see examples at: 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1BAI2ImWH24mBR3kOlMO4w9NVABaBzS2D8CBGbiyZahAgIucsx1cT8nnJrq7E3cJV-LRU3ddaQafAbEXuLvD_sYZ34lkbo0MMerdrNDT7Flsg2Z7noEE_NSmIYvXcgjVB_zd7_NKLhw5iD5c3WLaIRxMxPIsCEEE6J0VIpi56gGHaExd_x3MzsBSsAWCOQOjFz_73CJ4B81GlRb-0g4PCy2-NnKErJP-pv9Ctpvhh-4y22U49IOuzsWPgZVRQGdonGd4WMEUEFVe05TwXLNpW9fkQeCH_zjazukRj06rQm3ujMMZxzXsxjl87_G7NsPRROfclEGxDB9lSdMZmsQ8-kxQF5kZlAOFHaerg1PpPdE3ptC4dGTXBggK70qyX-8At84bjxAjT0yY-dEPFf_I4KAK6oksTFeLh2D8r5NCm9sonPGE5T4zmBwHZ-VGRONvu/https%3A%2F%2Fcoztoolkit.com%2Fdocs%2Fcoz%2Fcoz_index.html
(open a document in HTML format and then you can also see the pdf icon as well)

Downsides:
- steep learning curve: setup and learning the XML elements

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies, LLC
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1y3Ix8b5TGtyO_PwVBs-f5cj_Yhtz8AFV7mLKrff1ZWn7Xc2WgrS04MH22UkZYZUyZrk41RV9NgzKYkH0HRf20OPIsImOR03oxQ1CxT26mTGaDsiv-iQ3JbQbTXLu6jDEfWkSfsQzbDM9WdcQl9ePpmWyUYGIgUHdaRrtYyFv195bKJKVw-8mknWWtqjwYc3EMiB1iwwV7_Q-Wd0IMv_qmFlOqZveQEFy2ckYUpBe3TTh-dK_570eFOOkiXClIwjbxyrzwEPKY5oWKEar3SjHg6twboaJthpBZsmNG9vdAdTr0MSGWfjw85zt0PgDrQZcgTVOFDnnkWv4XGIPzbjYA-TqVrFsZ9PRAhogXdL_jlXY14wUOeoW4EFnCs1niDyp4WykZE9FMhXQLt0FJA1mZ3jWaQKlcZmyar4VFCI1KMH4zR_1zDoRNhmLmm5Bgr8i/http%3A%2F%2Fcoztoolkit.com
Dovetailed Technologies: +1 636.300.0901

Note: Our website and domain name have changed from dovetail.com to 
coztoolkit.com

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, at 6:52 AM, Paul Gorlinsky wrote:
> Did RUNOFF ever make it mainframe ?
>
> Whatever we do, don't mention that GML and HTML  are cousins...
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Dave Jones]

I have Waterloo Script here on z/VM and it includes the assembler source.
DJ

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Re: Markup languages

[Kirk Wolf]

Years ago we looked for a tool set for our documentation with the requirements:

- produce decent PDFs and HTML documentation from same source
- text source (preferably XML)
- open source and portable
- NOT Word or anything like it

We ended up using the docbook framework from Apache (DBF), which is a set of 
Java/XSLT/Ant tools.   It's not perfect, but it's very good for our needs.   

You can see examples at: https://coztoolkit.com/docs/coz/coz_index.html
(open a document in HTML format and then you can also see the pdf icon as well)

Downsides:
- steep learning curve: setup and learning the XML elements

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies, LLC
http://coztoolkit.com
Dovetailed Technologies: +1 636.300.0901

Note: Our website and domain name have changed from dovetail.com to 
coztoolkit.com

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, at 6:52 AM, Paul Gorlinsky wrote:
> Did RUNOFF ever make it mainframe ? 
> 
> Whatever we do, don't mention that GML and HTML  are cousins...
> 
> --
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Re: Markup languages - RTF and bloooooooooooooooooooatware...

[Robert Prins]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 at 01:35, Bob Bridges  wrote:

> I thought about RTF.  It is a markup language, after all, and I was
> recently able to write a REXX program that converts plain text to RTF with
> formatting including lots of fonts and a two-column layout (the
> error-message part of a friend's product manual).  I may still attempt
> that.  But I have no idea yet how I'd handle internal and external links,
> text constants, legal-style paragraph numbering and a few other items.
> Maybe I'm just a coward; everything I used on that other project I found
> eventually in the RTF specs.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 20:03
>
> I used to save my documents in Rich Text Format .RTF.  All the markup
> codes are stored in text (notepad) and several editors that use it.
>

I've been creating RTF files outside of Word since forever, both on Windoze
and z/OS. None of the files are very sophisticated, mostly pre-formatted
tables with bold headings. The key for getting to grips with the
intricacies of RTF is to take a simple text file, save it as RTF and then
start hacking away, M$ puts amazing loads of completely irrelevant crap in
files, see .
Samples of the output files are @ <
https://prino.neocities.org/miscellaneous/liftrtf.rar> and I've also got
some REXX (and Pascal) code to convert UTF-8 to the required \u escape
sequences, where the z/OS code relies on some extra (comment) data in the
input file, which makes the conversion independent of the transfer method
(IND$FILE/ftp/WSA).It should also work on Windoze or Linux.

Drop me a line if you need it, and I'll put the html-ised lot on my website
next time I start my z/OS system, after 24/5/6 December, and talking about
those days,

Enjoy the holidays!

Robert
-- 
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather 
Some REXX code for use on z/OS


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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

The markup languages based on Script are my favorites for producing documents, 
except for special cases where I prefer LaTex.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Thomas Kern [0041d919e708-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2022 7:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Showing my age...


I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began
writing Data Center Operation manuals using it.

I even wrote a Resignation Memo with it. For a while, I did have a 1600
BPI tape with both WSCRIPT and my 'resign script a0' file. Later I found
that 2 college friends were using it to write their PHD thesis.


/Tom Kern

On 12/21/2022 5:47 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Either in this forum or in another I hang out in - I'm not sure which - a few 
> months I remember a few comments about good ways to write extensive 
> documentation.  Somewhat to my surprise, quite a few people panned MS Word 
> and Publisher and said the way to go is a good markup language.  That's kind 
> of nice to hear, because I’m having trouble with Word, especially when I want 
> to add or change new appendices to my current work.  At the time I thought I 
> was mostly finished and didn't want to go through it all again, but now that 
> fond wish seems less probable and I'm thinking maybe I should listen again to 
> the recommendations I heard then and try out a few of them.
>
> By "extensive", in my case I mean something that can let me set the format 
> for chapters and appendices and say half a dozen levels of paragraph headers, 
> using legal paragraph numbering (ie 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 etc), lots of internal 
> cross-references and maybe an external URL or three, a table of contents ... 
> let's see ... probably not an index.  What I imagine is that I would copy the 
> text already written, insert the text markup tags, "compile" the results into 
> Word or a PDF, and feel free to add cross references, paragraphs and 
> appendices and recompile at any point thereafter.  The documentation user 
> needn't be aware of this process.
>
> Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and thank 
> you?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him 
> from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important.  -Martin Luther King, 
> Jr */
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

emacs
THE
vi
...

You may have my copy of TSPF when they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 5:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 22:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Alas, KEDIT is missing important functionality.

Yes, but for those of us without your favourite, what else is there?

--
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

?

Actually, it's m$ word that I criticize. Not that WP didn't have serious 
issues, but IMHO it is clearly the better of the two products. But I had access 
to BookMaster when I was using WP.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 7:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Shmuel,

Why did you slander Worperfect like that?  What did it ever do to you?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 8:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built on 
BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find powerful 
but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I attempt 
to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup horribly. Is 
there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that would allow me to 
correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up with is to copy the 
entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out 
resources at CTAN.
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

It includes Quattro; I thought that was dead. Nice to know. Thanks.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 7:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Bob,

Wordperfect is still alive and well, I have the 2021 Standard version installed 
on all my home machines.  My wife won't use anything else because of that most 
excellent "reveal codes" feature.

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wordperfect.com%2Fen%2F=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C0d1df853c7e24772d1cf08dae47c09fd%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638073518665723276%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=JM74HUPp%2BCBTp%2FpYlY85Ka3qNC%2F2zTMZooYUOISt9u4%3D=0

IMHO TOC in Wordperfect is a piece of cake, and it makes "newspaper mode" 
two-column document writing easy too.  And it is still the only mass-market 
word processor that does something that AFAIK only lawyers need - Tables of 
Authority for collecting references to existing case law in a brief into a 
consolidated list.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 3:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Which is exactly the complaint I have when trying to add to my document using 
Word.  But enough people have sympathized with me over Word's shortcomings that 
I guess I needn't belabour the point.

...But maybe I will anyway, to this extent:  With each new PC I shell out real 
money for a copy of the real MS Office, including Access.  But long ago I took 
up the habit of teaching each new PC to default to WordPad for .rtf documents, 
and that's what I use to write one- or two-page documentation on simple 
commands and utilities.  I've been saving Word for the more ambitious stuff, 
especially if it involves chapter headings and cross-references.

Now that I think I'm giving up on that, I guess Word is relegated to reading MS 
.docx documents that others send me.  I can't think of anything else I'd want 
it for.

I really miss WordPerfect.

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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

I thought about RTF.  It is a markup language, after all, and I was recently 
able to write a REXX program that converts plain text to RTF with formatting 
including lots of fonts and a two-column layout (the error-message part of a 
friend's product manual).  I may still attempt that.  But I have no idea yet 
how I'd handle internal and external links, text constants, legal-style 
paragraph numbering and a few other items.  Maybe I'm just a coward; everything 
I used on that other project I found eventually in the RTF specs.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The way to reduce the cutthroat competition for control of Washington is not 
to pass more laws, or even to enforce existing ones, but to take back the 
usurped powers now exercised from Washington.  If each state passed its own 
laws in areas now under federal control, it would hardly be profitable for 
foreign governments to try to buy their own US president.  And the smaller the 
unit of government, the more elections would reflect the desires of voters 
rather than the influence of huge donations.   -Joseph Sobran */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 20:03

I used to save my documents in Rich Text Format .RTF.  All the markup codes are 
stored in text (notepad) and several editors that use it.

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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

My employer of 14 years used WP for years.  Every new version came to my
desk first; I'd install it, sweat and struggle with its bugs, work with
their support people, and after a while tell my boss "Ok, it's ready for
distribution" and we'd put the new version out on the users' desks.

One year I was busy with something else and just couldn't find the time to
sweat and struggle with the latest version - 5.1 or 5.2, I forget which.  We
eventually gave up and switched to MS Word, and it's my fault.

My own evaluation is that Word is easier to use for the easy stuff, like
bold and italic.  If you're doing anything complicated, like a ToC, WP is
easier.  And I have to admit that most users don't ever have a use for the
hard stuff.  Still, I think WP was the better product overall - and, like
you and every other WP user in the world, Reveal-Codes is the feature I
think of first when comparing it favorably with Word.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Imitation is the sincerest form of television.  -Fred Allen */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Farley, Peter
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 19:24

Wordperfect is still alive and well, I have the 2021 Standard version
installed on all my home machines.  My wife won't use anything else because
of that most excellent "reveal codes" feature.

https://www.wordperfect.com/en/

IMHO TOC in Wordperfect is a piece of cake, and it makes "newspaper mode"
two-column document writing easy too.  And it is still the only mass-market
word processor that does something that AFAIK only lawyers need - Tables of
Authority for collecting references to existing case law in a brief into a
consolidated list.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bob Bridges
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 3:58 PM

I really miss WordPerfect.

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Re: Markup languages

[Mike Schwab]

I used to save my documents in Rich Text Format .RTF.  All the markup
codes are stored in text (notepad) and several editors that use it.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 5:38 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this
> question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm
> looking hard at LaTeX.  I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but that
> was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by
> his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I
> can't parse with confidence.  I imagine whatever documentation comes with
> the download will be clearer.
>
> But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch.  I get the
> impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what?  A
> series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more?  And I need a program
> that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document,
> and/or to a PDF file.  And most people use a text editor specifically
> dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are
> mentioned.  Do you have any specific recommendations?  Because I think I'm
> about ready to download and experiment.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
> resents.  -G C Lichtenberg */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39
>
> My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built
> on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find
> powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script.
>
> I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I
> attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup
> horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that
> would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up
> with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.
>
> I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out
> resources at CTAN.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Markup languages

[Farley, Peter]

Shmuel,

Why did you slander Worperfect like that?  What did it ever do to you?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 8:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built on 
BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find powerful 
but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I attempt 
to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup horribly. Is 
there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that would allow me to 
correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up with is to copy the 
entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out 
resources at CTAN.
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Re: Markup languages

[Farley, Peter]

Bob,

Wordperfect is still alive and well, I have the 2021 Standard version installed 
on all my home machines.  My wife won't use anything else because of that most 
excellent "reveal codes" feature.

https://www.wordperfect.com/en/

IMHO TOC in Wordperfect is a piece of cake, and it makes "newspaper mode" 
two-column document writing easy too.  And it is still the only mass-market 
word processor that does something that AFAIK only lawyers need - Tables of 
Authority for collecting references to existing case law in a brief into a 
consolidated list.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 3:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Which is exactly the complaint I have when trying to add to my document using 
Word.  But enough people have sympathized with me over Word's shortcomings that 
I guess I needn't belabour the point.

...But maybe I will anyway, to this extent:  With each new PC I shell out real 
money for a copy of the real MS Office, including Access.  But long ago I took 
up the habit of teaching each new PC to default to WordPad for .rtf documents, 
and that's what I use to write one- or two-page documentation on simple 
commands and utilities.  I've been saving Word for the more ambitious stuff, 
especially if it involves chapter headings and cross-references.

Now that I think I'm giving up on that, I guess Word is relegated to reading MS 
.docx documents that others send me.  I can't think of anything else I'd want 
it for.

I really miss WordPerfect.

---

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and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this
question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm
looking hard at LaTeX.  I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but that
was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by
his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I
can't parse with confidence.  I imagine whatever documentation comes with
the download will be clearer.

But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch.  I get the
impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what?  A
series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more?  And I need a program
that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document,
and/or to a PDF file.  And most people use a text editor specifically
dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are
mentioned.  Do you have any specific recommendations?  Because I think I'm
about ready to download and experiment.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
resents.  -G C Lichtenberg */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built
on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find
powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I
attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup
horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that
would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up
with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out
resources at CTAN.

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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 22:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Alas, KEDIT is missing important functionality.

Yes, but for those of us without your favourite, what else is there?

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

Alas, KEDIT is missing important functionality.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll 
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 4:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 21:23, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Waterloo Script will work just fine with TSO.
>
> If only VM/SP were public domain I'd suggest XEDIT as a reason to learn VM.

I use Kedit these days on my home (which is the only place I ever am) PCs.  I 
did
use Xedit for 3 years, back in the mid 1980s.  (I also wrote a full-screen 
editor
for APL functions, vaguely based on some simple Xedit facilities) in APL, for 
IBM,
as a student when the default line-mode editing of APL functions was so limited
in what it could do.  That must have been in 1981.  I bet they never did 
anything
with it).

For me, Kedit plus its macros (in Kexx) beats any of the ispf-like editors with
macros not written in rexx.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Tomasz Rola]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 09:51:58AM -0500, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office
> or LaTeX; I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who
> will maintain the doc later when we all retire?   When considering
> authoring docs like programs we need to consider the downstream
> consumers / maintainers so I’d go with the popular tools of today.

...like Word Perfect and AmiPro...

It does not matter what is popular today when one is calculating with
decades in mind. LaTeX is pure 7-bit ASCII (or maybe Unicode in more
modern incarnation). I might bet my money that of all formats used
today, 7-bit ASCII will disappear the last, if ever.

LaTeX is (I believe) a set of macros for TeX, itself written in C (at
least one of the mostly compatible with each other few TeXs I have
heard about). Again, I might bet my money that C compiler will be
among the last one going out of use, given that people are able to
write themselves toy compiler for toy virtual machine or use old real
one inside of not-so-toy VM.

Maybe it will be slow to run, but what is going to be slow twenty
years from now? Something akin to our supercomputers, I guess.

Of all things mentioned in this thread so far (I am about 1/3 in it) I
would use LaTeX for book/manual and org-mode for ad-hoc memory
aid. Both are text (ASCII/Unicode) based and if there is no tool for
processing them (i.e. one doing what I want), I think I can help
myself with good keyboard and some coffee.

HTH

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 21:23, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Waterloo Script will work just fine with TSO.
>
> If only VM/SP were public domain I'd suggest XEDIT as a reason to learn VM.

I use Kedit these days on my home (which is the only place I ever am) PCs.  I 
did
use Xedit for 3 years, back in the mid 1980s.  (I also wrote a full-screen 
editor
for APL functions, vaguely based on some simple Xedit facilities) in APL, for 
IBM,
as a student when the default line-mode editing of APL functions was so limited
in what it could do.  That must have been in 1981.  I bet they never did 
anything
with it).

For me, Kedit plus its macros (in Kexx) beats any of the ispf-like editors with 
macros not written in rexx.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 20:58, Bob Bridges wrote:
> But long ago
> I took up the habit of teaching each new PC to default to WordPad for .rtf
> documents, and that's what I use to write one- or two-page documentation on
> simple commands and utilities. 

It's a while since I last used Wordpad, but one problem I had was that any
change one made to its options affected any document subsequently 
edited/viewed with it. Options were not stored with the document.

For anything complex I use a DTP program that originated on RISC OS (the
OS used by the successors to the BBC Microcomputers) - named Ovation
and a successor, Ovation Pro.  That was eventually ported to Windows.  It
has been extended, as it supports "applets" written in a subset of C.  It 
can save files in only two formats, a binary one, and a plain text one. As
a matter of course I always save in both formats, so that if some sort of
corruption breaks the binary file I can still use the other.  Cunning people
have been known to write code to generate or adjust the plain text form.
It really IS a text & graphics layout program more than a word-processer,
though.
   
-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 20:20, Phil Smith III wrote:

> Jeremy-you realize that PostScript is about as far as you can get from
> markup in a lot of ways, right? It's fun stuff but not what people generally
> mean when they say "markup". Just sayin'.

Good point!

When I used DCF, I wrote a lot of macros; my most complex set used two
separate definitions of a whole set of macros; the first set were used on 
the first pass through a set of related documents and generated a whole 
set of intermediate files.  Then the second set of definitions were used 
for a conventional 2-pass process to generate the final documents,
reading both the original files and all the intermediate ones.

So to some extent it's the programmability that I really miss - and the 
facility for embedded comments.  The PS example has both.  If one 
defines a tailored set of macros (or - in PS - PS commands eg in the 
building plans file, a command to draw a wall) then the source file 
becomes at least in part a long sequence of commands, interspersed 
with text to be placed on the page.  Eg, near the start of the file there's
this

/smoke_alarm  % S: x_pos y_pos%{{
{ newpath 1 index 1 index 80 0 360 arc 1 index 1 index 
60 0 360 arc 40 0 360 arc stroke } def 

which is a definition (the trailing "def") of a macro named "smoke_alarm"

(which draws a symbol consisting of three concentric circles).  It takes 
2 parameters (off the stack) which are the x and y positions on the 
page where it is to go).

Later on in the file we have for example: 4200 7000 smoke_alarm 
(and quite a few other calls).

My main criticism of the way the PS was written is that there's too 
many instances of actual numbers.  I'd rather have seen eg smoke 
alarm positions defined in terms of the symbolic locations of the
nearby walls, and the distance from a wall that an alarm should be
placed at.  It'd make the code easier to understand too.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

Waterloo Script will work just fine with TSO.

If only VM/SP were public domain I'd suggest XEDIT as a reason to learn VM.

PS is a low level language; think Java byte code or z without HLASM to automate 
things. I suspect that CTAN has LaTeX package to handle you building plans.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 3:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 17:36, David Spiegel wrote:
> Hi Jeremy,
> CBT Files 280-287 (cbttape.org)

Thank-you!

At last, a compelling reason to install Hercules and some ancient
version of VM (not used that for real since 1985 or so, though),
or - since I see the CBT tapes mention a TSO command processor
and a "prompter" for Waterloo Script - maybe (since I have a lot
more MVS experience than VM) Hercules and one of the MVS38J
systems.

I'll add that to my long list of things to do when I have the time
and energy to attempt it.


I have also contemplated learning PostScript ...   A few years ago
there was a discussion on a Debian mail list (I've never used any
form of linux system except for a live CD one to rescue files from
a corrupt disk, but I lurk on various mail-lists looking for interesting
discussions)...

In this case it was about software for preparing drawings for
house changes etc.  Various people commented that they found
GUI applications really hard to learn just enough to prepare a
single set of plans.

Someone commented that they had prepared plans for a building
project using PS; I managed to get a copy of that - just 800 lines
of code in a plain text file ... which - when opened in a PDF/PS
viewer - produces a 4-page building plan.

I am quite sure that working out how the 800 lines produce that
would be a lot less hard than learning a GUI system, not least
because one can embed comments in the PS explaining why one
is doing something in a particular way.

What's more, I thought I could probably write some nifty rexx to
produce PS, if I ever decided to use this approach myself.

--
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Re: Markup languages

[Gibney, Dave]

It may be heresy, but $99/year for Office365 isn't a large expense and can be 
installed on 5 PCs plus mobile devices. 
But, I am still running Visio from a 2013 license

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 12:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Markup languages
> 

> ...But maybe I will anyway, to this extent:  With each new PC I shell out
> real money for a copy of the real MS Office, including Access.  But long ago
> I took up the habit of teaching each new PC to default to WordPad for .rtf
> documents, and that's what I use to write one- or two-page documentation
> on
> simple commands and utilities.  I've been saving Word for the more
> ambitious
> stuff, especially if it involves chapter headings and cross-references.
> 
> Now that I think I'm giving up on that, I guess Word is relegated to reading
> MS .docx documents that others send me.  I can't think of anything else I'd
> want it for.
> 
> I really miss WordPerfect.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely
> overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common
> enemy.
> -Samuel Adams */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 14:49
> 
> Oddly enough, one of the reasons that I use markup languages is that the
> documents are easy to maintain; adding text doesn't break formatting.
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of
> Matt Hogstrom [m...@hogstrom.org]
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 9:51 AM
> 
> In my travels I've not seen anyone use Libre Office or LaTeX; I'm not
> knocking them but if they are not widely used who will maintain the doc
> later when we all retire?   When considering authoring docs like programs we
> need to consider the downstream consumers / maintainers so I'd go with the
> popular tools of today.
> 
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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

Which is exactly the complaint I have when trying to add to my document
using Word.  But enough people have sympathized with me over Word's
shortcomings that I guess I needn't belabour the point.

...But maybe I will anyway, to this extent:  With each new PC I shell out
real money for a copy of the real MS Office, including Access.  But long ago
I took up the habit of teaching each new PC to default to WordPad for .rtf
documents, and that's what I use to write one- or two-page documentation on
simple commands and utilities.  I've been saving Word for the more ambitious
stuff, especially if it involves chapter headings and cross-references.

Now that I think I'm giving up on that, I guess Word is relegated to reading
MS .docx documents that others send me.  I can't think of anything else I'd
want it for.

I really miss WordPerfect.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely
overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy.
-Samuel Adams */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 14:49

Oddly enough, one of the reasons that I use markup languages is that the
documents are easy to maintain; adding text doesn't break formatting.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Matt Hogstrom [m...@hogstrom.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 9:51 AM

In my travels I've not seen anyone use Libre Office or LaTeX; I'm not
knocking them but if they are not widely used who will maintain the doc
later when we all retire?   When considering authoring docs like programs we
need to consider the downstream consumers / maintainers so I'd go with the
popular tools of today.

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Re: Markup languages

[Bob Bridges]

I pay a great deal of attention to the question "who's going to maintain it 
after I'm gone?", when I'm coding; it's for that reason that I stick to VBS and 
VBA when writing tools for my clients in MS Office, and why I resisted the 
temptation for years before finally breaking down and getting myself a copy of 
ooRexx.  In this case, though, I'm confident that the answer to the question 
regarding this document is "no one".  After they send me home (and contractors 
~always~ get sent home eventually, this client's assurances notwithstanding), I 
know good and well that no one will think to modify it thereafter.  In fact 
I'll be flattered if anyone does more than glance at it even now.  But I owe it 
to them to document the process, nonetheless.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you want to see a flagrant and spectacular violation of the known laws of 
physics, watch what my son does if we are in a public place and for some reason 
I need to burst into the opening notes of "Respect" (WHAT you want! Baby I got 
it!). When this happens, my son's body will instantaneously disappear into 
another dimension and re-materialize as far as two football fields away. The 
results are even more dramatic with the song "Got My Mojo Workin'".  -Dave 
Barry, 1996-08-11 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Matt Hogstrom
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 09:52

Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office or LaTeX; 
I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who will maintain the doc 
later when we all retire?   When considering authoring docs like programs we 
need to consider the downstream consumers / maintainers so I’d go with the 
popular tools of today.

> --- On Dec 22, 2022, at 8:13 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> Why word? (open|libre)office is free, as is LaTeX

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Re: Markup languages

[Phil Smith III]

Shmuel wrote:
>Oddly enough, one of the reasons that I use markup languages is that 
>the documents are easy to maintain; adding text doesn't break formatting.

 

I don't find this odd at all! I miss markup, especially for books. Trying to
do consistency checks in FrameMaker or *shudder* Word is painful compared to
being able to search a bunch of flat files. As is *making* the changes for
consistency. 

 

Jeremy-you realize that PostScript is about as far as you can get from
markup in a lot of ways, right? It's fun stuff but not what people generally
mean when they say "markup". Just sayin'.


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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 17:36, David Spiegel wrote:
> Hi Jeremy,
> CBT Files 280-287 (cbttape.org)

Thank-you!

At last, a compelling reason to install Hercules and some ancient
version of VM (not used that for real since 1985 or so, though),
or - since I see the CBT tapes mention a TSO command processor
and a "prompter" for Waterloo Script - maybe (since I have a lot
more MVS experience than VM) Hercules and one of the MVS38J
systems.

I'll add that to my long list of things to do when I have the time
and energy to attempt it.


I have also contemplated learning PostScript ...   A few years ago
there was a discussion on a Debian mail list (I've never used any 
form of linux system except for a live CD one to rescue files from
a corrupt disk, but I lurk on various mail-lists looking for interesting 
discussions)...

In this case it was about software for preparing drawings for 
house changes etc.  Various people commented that they found
GUI applications really hard to learn just enough to prepare a 
single set of plans.

Someone commented that they had prepared plans for a building
project using PS; I managed to get a copy of that - just 800 lines
of code in a plain text file ... which - when opened in a PDF/PS 
viewer - produces a 4-page building plan.

I am quite sure that working out how the 800 lines produce that
would be a lot less hard than learning a GUI system, not least 
because one can embed comments in the PS explaining why one
is doing something in a particular way.

What's more, I thought I could probably write some nifty rexx to
produce PS, if I ever decided to use this approach myself.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Markup languages

[John McKown]

I use LibreOffice on my home system. But only if I must interact with work.
Normally, I use RDP into my work desktop and use the stuff on it.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 8:52 AM Matt Hogstrom  wrote:

> Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office or
> LaTeX; I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who will
> maintain the doc later when we all retire?   When considering authoring
> docs like programs we need to consider the downstream consumers /
> maintainers so I’d go with the popular tools of today.
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> m...@hogstrom.org
> +1-919-656-0564
> PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
> Facebook   LinkedIn <
> https://linkedin/in/mhogstrom>  Twitter 
>
> “It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
> — Hogstrom
>
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 2022, at 8:13 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> >
> > Why word? (open|libre)office is free, as is LaTeX
>
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

Oddly enough, one of the reasons that I use markup languages is that the 
documents are easy to maintain; adding text doesn't break formatting.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Matt Hogstrom [m...@hogstrom.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 9:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office or LaTeX; 
I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who will maintain the doc 
later when we all retire?   When considering authoring docs like programs we 
need to consider the downstream consumers / maintainers so I’d go with the 
popular tools of today.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook 
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffacebook.com%2Fmatt.hogstrom=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C3817f65218c14ecc8d0708dae42c34d3%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638073175804413076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=%2FWAzvv8AZhRq7opA4ACXFA8PMc%2BE1ZrdKHpwxoS4N8c%3D=0>
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“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Dec 22, 2022, at 8:13 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> Why word? (open|libre)office is free, as is LaTeX


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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

The only reason that I am still using pdftex is that arXiv doesn't support 
xetex. What is the advantage of lualatex over xelates?

I find MD too limited


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 2:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

I have produced documents for years with xelatex and (lately) luatex (because, 
imho, those are the only solution that gives typographical freedom, and 
predictable, constant page layout, and optimal quality.
I am keeping that setup probably forever, but am moving to Markdown and pandoc 
conversion to LateX source, because it works, and makes the sources easily 
readable (and editable via for example using GitHub or SourceForge) also for 
incidental collaborators. XML-DocBook solutions I gave up on because low 
readability and only commercial processors gave quality output - this is the 
sad story of Apache FOP and a host of DocBook toolchains.

I still keep the skeleton setup as LateX - asciidoc and family, and also pandoc 
pdf generation just don’t give me that quality. It helps to go requesting 
commercial publishing houses for their TeX setup files, there is a lot to learn 
there. I try to use shell escape where possible to guarantee that example code 
is correct by XeteX having execute them and including the actual output in the 
document compile.

best regards,

René.


> On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:56, Rupert Reynolds  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 16:47 Rupert Reynolds,  wrote:
>
>> I've been meaning to learn LaTex for years, but it looks very different
>> from other markups. I'm off to find a beginners' course now :-)
>>
>>
> And so the first hurdle is passed--install package 'texlive' on Linux and
> 'pdflatex' command just works.
>
> Roops
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

As far as I can tell, {Open|Libre)Office has better support for old m$ formats 
than m$ does, but a good markup language is better than any WYSIAYG program. I 
find LaTeX awkward, but use it anyways because it's easier to get what I want 
using it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Rupert Reynolds [rreyno...@cix.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 11:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

I've been meaning to learn LaTex for years, but it looks very different
from other markups. I'm off to find a beginners' course now :-)

LibreOffice has the advantage of using an open standard, and being able to
save in various M$ formats, and html. Libre is sometimes used to recover
broken M$ Office files :-)

Roops



On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 14:51 Matt Hogstrom,  wrote:

> Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office or
> LaTeX; I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who will
> maintain the doc later when we all retire?   When considering authoring
> docs like programs we need to consider the downstream consumers /
> maintainers so I’d go with the popular tools of today.
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> m...@hogstrom.org
>

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

You should be able to manage LaTeX on my drug store (CVS), subversion or Git 
(anybody still using Source Code Control System?), and it's a lot more powerful 
than MD.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Gord Tomlin [gt.ibm.li...@actionsoftware.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 12:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On 2022-12-21 20:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> If you’re looking for something that is good for markup then Markdown is 
> widely used.

Markdown is great for its simplicity, and the fact that it's all
character based makes it easy to manage revisions under git. It can be
challenging to produce a professional looking PDF document, though.

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/12a0IquXIKxWaoGcXpOBFlXpyYP86FMPmjUHqBGVY0MYNqYYmpxlPmCbQtGkd1ajGB5UN8QhZvPxymkVi-5UpP2Fxqha9m9QSh1EwdIVqCM18deWHV_pCQS_R6d6U9d2in15nbGACTk9FDBgcNXsvqlOB3n2xU3D7ARTMAVWZoQAY68QbEwjVyBoXJkYyqBG_GjjQAkGevW9JR9tS0oN0ZuweWdyc0b-SfqLde5aDHr9tGJ0M5yENuZplcyMsjsTAhrPhzKNlAFsrw_9LCCxv-rSfeip91xnK7oQwu2adDZFtQ2MShEoTZ0Rkz9U0GPNCIE_F_XKmTa9sUY7jTmIYv3PCwT4PDULt5zYwRehkhi90IcOaMPhOVZ2eputvtWio9SBcx1r8omaBOJyFml1eLDcs5COS-rUsvIFETDMYU3KWQOBZ5q2tV5miV_CF1wXS/https%3A%2F%2Factionsoftware.com%2Fsupport%2F

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Re: Markup languages

[René Jansen]

I have produced documents for years with xelatex and (lately) luatex (because, 
imho, those are the only solution that gives typographical freedom, and 
predictable, constant page layout, and optimal quality.
I am keeping that setup probably forever, but am moving to Markdown and pandoc 
conversion to LateX source, because it works, and makes the sources easily 
readable (and editable via for example using GitHub or SourceForge) also for 
incidental collaborators. XML-DocBook solutions I gave up on because low 
readability and only commercial processors gave quality output - this is the 
sad story of Apache FOP and a host of DocBook toolchains.

I still keep the skeleton setup as LateX - asciidoc and family, and also pandoc 
pdf generation just don’t give me that quality. It helps to go requesting 
commercial publishing houses for their TeX setup files, there is a lot to learn 
there. I try to use shell escape where possible to guarantee that example code 
is correct by XeteX having execute them and including the actual output in the 
document compile. 

best regards,

René.


> On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:56, Rupert Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 16:47 Rupert Reynolds,  wrote:
> 
>> I've been meaning to learn LaTex for years, but it looks very different
>> from other markups. I'm off to find a beginners' course now :-)
>> 
>> 
> And so the first hurdle is passed--install package 'texlive' on Linux and
> 'pdflatex' command just works.
> 
> Roops
> 
> --
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

The last free version is available on the CBT tape. Waterloo has not 
open-sourced the chargeable version. SCRIPTW has always included source code; 
AFAIK Waterloo provided fixes only through source updates.

Both chargeable and free versions run on CMS and MVS, including TSO.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 12:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 00:38, Thomas Kern wrote:

> I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began
> writing Data Center Operation manuals using it.

Is an executable for it available anywhere?

If so, for what platform?

Is the source available?

--
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Re: Markup languages

[Rupert Reynolds]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 16:47 Rupert Reynolds,  wrote:

> I've been meaning to learn LaTex for years, but it looks very different
> from other markups. I'm off to find a beginners' course now :-)
>
>
And so the first hurdle is passed--install package 'texlive' on Linux and
'pdflatex' command just works.

Roops

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Re: Markup languages

[David Spiegel]

Hi Jeremy,
CBT Files 280-287 (cbttape.org)

Regards,
David

On 2022-12-22 12:24, Jeremy Nicoll wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 00:38, Thomas Kern wrote:


I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began
writing Data Center Operation manuals using it.

Is an executable for it available anywhere?

If so, for what platform?

Is the source available?



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Re: Markup languages

[Thomas Kern]

The last copy I had was written in S/370 Assembler language and 
executable in a VM/CMS (R6 through z/VM R5) environment.



For actual editing of document type files, I now use LibreOffice on 
Linux and Windows desktops. I don't have to pay for it and I can save as 
MS-formats to share with Windows-only people.



/Tom Kern

On 12/22/2022 12:24 PM, Jeremy Nicoll wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 00:38, Thomas Kern wrote:


I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began
writing Data Center Operation manuals using it.

Is an executable for it available anywhere?

If so, for what platform?

Is the source available?



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Re: Markup languages

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 00:38, Thomas Kern wrote:

> I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began 
> writing Data Center Operation manuals using it.

Is an executable for it available anywhere?

If so, for what platform? 

Is the source available?

-- 
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Re: Markup languages

[Gord Tomlin]

On 2022-12-21 20:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:

If you’re looking for something that is good for markup then Markdown is widely 
used.


Markdown is great for its simplicity, and the fact that it's all 
character based makes it easy to manage revisions under git. It can be 
challenging to produce a professional looking PDF document, though.


--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

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Re: Markup languages

[Rupert Reynolds]

I've been meaning to learn LaTex for years, but it looks very different
from other markups. I'm off to find a beginners' course now :-)

LibreOffice has the advantage of using an open standard, and being able to
save in various M$ formats, and html. Libre is sometimes used to recover
broken M$ Office files :-)

Roops



On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 14:51 Matt Hogstrom,  wrote:

> Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office or
> LaTeX; I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who will
> maintain the doc later when we all retire?   When considering authoring
> docs like programs we need to consider the downstream consumers /
> maintainers so I’d go with the popular tools of today.
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> m...@hogstrom.org
>

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Re: Markup languages

[Matt Hogstrom]

Fair comments.  In my travels I’ve not seen anyone use Libre Office or LaTeX; 
I’m not knocking them but if they are not widely used who will maintain the doc 
later when we all retire?   When considering authoring docs like programs we 
need to consider the downstream consumers / maintainers so I’d go with the 
popular tools of today.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook   LinkedIn 
  Twitter 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Dec 22, 2022, at 8:13 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> Why word? (open|libre)office is free, as is LaTeX


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Re: Markup languages

[John McKown]

I use LyX also. But I don't do much documenting. "The source IS the
documentation."

On Wed, Dec 21, 2022, 17:54 Tom Marchant <
000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I like LyX for this kind of thing. Perhaps because I'm too lazy to learn
> LaTeX or TeX.
>
> Tom Marchant
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

Script and roff both derive from CTSS RUNOFF. Aren't roff and troff part of 
OMVS?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gorlinsky [p...@atsmigrations.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 7:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

Did RUNOFF ever make it mainframe ?

Whatever we do, don't mention that GML and HTML  are cousins...

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built on 
BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find powerful 
but clumsier that the tools built on Script.

I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I attempt 
to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup horribly. Is 
there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that would allow me to 
correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up with is to copy the 
entry to notepad and then copy from notepad.

I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g.,  MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out 
resources at CTAN.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2022 5:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Markup languages

Either in this forum or in another I hang out in - I'm not sure which - a few 
months I remember a few comments about good ways to write extensive 
documentation.  Somewhat to my surprise, quite a few people panned MS Word and 
Publisher and said the way to go is a good markup language.  That's kind of 
nice to hear, because I’m having trouble with Word, especially when I want to 
add or change new appendices to my current work.  At the time I thought I was 
mostly finished and didn't want to go through it all again, but now that fond 
wish seems less probable and I'm thinking maybe I should listen again to the 
recommendations I heard then and try out a few of them.

By "extensive", in my case I mean something that can let me set the format for 
chapters and appendices and say half a dozen levels of paragraph headers, using 
legal paragraph numbering (ie 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 etc), lots of internal 
cross-references and maybe an external URL or three, a table of contents ... 
let's see ... probably not an index.  What I imagine is that I would copy the 
text already written, insert the text markup tags, "compile" the results into 
Word or a PDF, and feel free to add cross references, paragraphs and appendices 
and recompile at any point thereafter.  The documentation user needn't be aware 
of this process.

Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and thank you?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him 
from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important.  -Martin Luther King, Jr 
*/

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

MD is certainly widely used and is good for simple markup, but I defy you to do 
something like <http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3/humor/DOX.pdf> in it, while it is 
a piece of cake with LaTeX.

 \documentclass{article}
 \usepackage{chemfig}
 \usepackage[paperheight=10in,paperwidth=10in,top=0.25in, bottom=0.25in, 
left=0in, right=0in]{geometry}
 \usepackage{graphicx}
 \begin{document}

 \setbondstyle{line width=2pt}
 \setdoublesep{4pt}
 \renewcommand*\printatom[1]{\ensuremath{\mathbf{#1}}}

 %\headheight 0pt
 %\headsep 0pt
 %\footskip 0pt
 \pagestyle{empty}
 %\vsize 10in


 \vspace{0.5in}
 \begin{center}
 {\Huge \chemname{\chemfig{*6(-=-(-DOX)=(-DOX)-=)}}{\bfseries Ortho DOX\ \ }}
 \end{center}

 \vspace{0.5in}

 \begin{center}
 {\Huge \chemname{\chemfig{*6(-(-DOX)=-=(-DOX)-=)}}{\bfseries Para DOX}}
 \end{center}

 \end{document}



--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mark Jacobs [0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2022 7:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

I use LaTeX myself, but you might want to take a look at Markdown. 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dOu2XKmRp-KHUQXm9PRtNGpoKua51eGsbUOrKLwj4V9KlLcQESWTpTAXpEhJvB0mmVQAkhvdFUYl3NapsgPXeJKxAKzSqavFYQARJIoDQ55fmifaJyj5nzax-3x-xXzAVRvwlYVNQCHVRtRyBa-Fe483SiSSzhezS6Yl59K0Bz-EDBIsOhnjIenLWJHjBG-Pgc4cjQ0I7x79rIXeCOylxBGwfD-i66bqTzmtUnHp8KpEEjozAFHLaISw81w_1Xrn0qEQn_JEonoeNp3nT97o-ZLqg_9AIBIG-0T8zrqWi3G0alVopyMLf3n5eOho8YHC8C6uG1NbQOyBuNaBPUQIr8Np59WXjYys1KdRR3qmgONP8YaAOa2jmZyuZU0xCzDWrQVqt87M6UzFaetPaQfjAtN9LSogBFMz42FMjPam1hM6QS0NdM_NV1pSvl4-mFkR/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.markdownguide.org%2F

Mark Jacobs


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--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, December 21st, 2022 at 6:53 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


> I like LyX for this kind of thing. Perhaps because I'm too lazy to learn 
> LaTeX or TeX.
>
> Tom Marchant
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

Why word? (open|libre)office is free, as is LaTeX, and there are free programs 
that let you edit LaTeX with previews. For that matter, DocBook is free.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Matt Hogstrom [m...@hogstrom.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2022 8:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

If you’re looking for something that is good for markup then Markdown is widely 
used.  If your looking for a tool to edit in and manage the outlining of 
documents, promotion of headings and tracking of footnotes then I will prefer 
Word but Google Docs is amazing and free.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook 
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffacebook.com%2Fmatt.hogstrom=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C1b2e64ee6eb140e4a3bd08dae3b83917%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638072677613421099%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=0T4V3ehwnEouQZyWUXIKmw8K33bofzis5wScMq78eWo%3D=0>
  LinkedIn 
<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1yeUafZ9n3_mCdugVKBLz2pXdaPY_DQBL8U0yh66FaVuyvP6IBiVZaEuB989cZyjBxdz0TqEhPbGAhMC4uV7GbykmKUyhVVm913HrlZcAxF7-ryVauU-MFIuVbCjXcNNhWuw558Unb1MEC-yeRxbPkSbhGWfI0d-41COQ85H5rnPmx9ksK23t2MR4Bn7J1wcgLGamgdM7KON1sra0G11A3qSzzmIMRvmDgnR45xrBitMLd7PN-ndac29EXi2Wb7oeWqskW_kWaqZW7DcFXouea2pbA-qfIEdHdchHyl-nrO6HrdI1lM5S7-Aa_ohcNc8vlYtJwgQdTJUx582m3Mx_nHxVcgaxnbwlt7ff9JwT17mbfUpspP3IhReiyqvbBOx5lvwhzlqU7d7pyNJVJ-mgCYCWE06KgMrwMNciNMGST6DviHcXyC8SjVIWfkcGKTe2/https%3A%2F%2Flinkedin%2Fin%2Fmhogstrom>
  Twitter 
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fhogstrom=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C1b2e64ee6eb140e4a3bd08dae3b83917%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638072677613421099%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=a7aTXcpj75gX3XQx6v%2BKG3AIRVaYqm6JF76bbWKZ24o%3D=0>

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Dec 21, 2022, at 7:38 PM, Thomas Kern 
> <0041d919e708-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and thank 
>> you?


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Re: Markup languages

[Paul Gorlinsky]

Did RUNOFF ever make it mainframe ? 

Whatever we do, don't mention that GML and HTML  are cousins...

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Re: Markup languages

[Seymour J Metz]

After ATS and FORMAT, NSCRIPT was a joy; SCRIPTW and DCF only made things 
better, The ability to write macros to automate fancy formatting made me get 
fussy about layout details that previously had been too much effort. Having to 
go back to dumb :WYSIWYG" (Which I call What You See Is All You Get - WYSIAYG) 
was a shock. These days, while I use LibreOffice for short documents, I use 
LaTeX for anything serious and have visions of Open DCF.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Rupert Reynolds [rreyno...@cix.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 7:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Markup languages

I've just been playing with Visual Studio Code with the Markdown All-in-One
extension.

Almost the first thing I read is that different .md viewers behave
differently--to my mind the same problem as the downside of HTML.

And I'm not convinced about significant white space (sp-sp-crlf) to get a
line break, either.

When I started with docs, it was Script/VS and GML. Hard work to learn, but
it did  what it said in the docs, consistently. And the index and TOC
almost wrote themlseves.

I'll keep playing a while longer, but I'm not seeing the advantage in
Markdown get, except that in VScode I can write markup and ctrl-shft-V to
get a preview.

Roops

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 01:01 Matt Hogstrom,  wrote:

> If you’re looking for something that is good for markup then Markdown is
> widely used.  If your looking for a tool to edit in and manage the
> outlining of documents, promotion of headings and tracking of footnotes
> then I will prefer Word but Google Docs is amazing and free.
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> m...@hogstrom.org
> +1-919-656-0564
> PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
> Facebook 
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffacebook.com%2Fmatt.hogstrom=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C89f21eb1a90646f2194208dae41534c8%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638073076993385028%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=efu%2FUOxRwYhek6g%2FMqVBxTCGgvrE0oJMYj9cOeirUww%3D=0>
>   LinkedIn <
> https://linkedin/in/mhogstrom>  Twitter 
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fhogstrom=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C89f21eb1a90646f2194208dae41534c8%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638073076993385028%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=DSWaPn8hTLZw2MGKYEuqn8VAFKM85HEPca0izNnOZj4%3D=0>
>
> “It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
> — Hogstrom
>
>
>
> > On Dec 21, 2022, at 7:38 PM, Thomas Kern <
> 0041d919e708-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and
> thank you?
>
>
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Re: Markup languages

[Rupert Reynolds]

I've just been playing with Visual Studio Code with the Markdown All-in-One
extension.

Almost the first thing I read is that different .md viewers behave
differently--to my mind the same problem as the downside of HTML.

And I'm not convinced about significant white space (sp-sp-crlf) to get a
line break, either.

When I started with docs, it was Script/VS and GML. Hard work to learn, but
it did  what it said in the docs, consistently. And the index and TOC
almost wrote themlseves.

I'll keep playing a while longer, but I'm not seeing the advantage in
Markdown get, except that in VScode I can write markup and ctrl-shft-V to
get a preview.

Roops

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 01:01 Matt Hogstrom,  wrote:

> If you’re looking for something that is good for markup then Markdown is
> widely used.  If your looking for a tool to edit in and manage the
> outlining of documents, promotion of headings and tracking of footnotes
> then I will prefer Word but Google Docs is amazing and free.
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> m...@hogstrom.org
> +1-919-656-0564
> PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
> Facebook   LinkedIn <
> https://linkedin/in/mhogstrom>  Twitter 
>
> “It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
> — Hogstrom
>
>
>
> > On Dec 21, 2022, at 7:38 PM, Thomas Kern <
> 0041d919e708-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and
> thank you?
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Markup languages

[Matt Hogstrom]

If you’re looking for something that is good for markup then Markdown is widely 
used.  If your looking for a tool to edit in and manage the outlining of 
documents, promotion of headings and tracking of footnotes then I will prefer 
Word but Google Docs is amazing and free.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook   LinkedIn 
  Twitter 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Dec 21, 2022, at 7:38 PM, Thomas Kern 
> <0041d919e708-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and thank 
>> you?


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Re: Markup languages

[Thomas Kern]

Showing my age...


I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began 
writing Data Center Operation manuals using it.


I even wrote a Resignation Memo with it. For a while, I did have a 1600 
BPI tape with both WSCRIPT and my 'resign script a0' file. Later I found 
that 2 college friends were using it to write their PHD thesis.



/Tom Kern

On 12/21/2022 5:47 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Either in this forum or in another I hang out in - I'm not sure which - a few 
months I remember a few comments about good ways to write extensive 
documentation.  Somewhat to my surprise, quite a few people panned MS Word and 
Publisher and said the way to go is a good markup language.  That's kind of 
nice to hear, because I’m having trouble with Word, especially when I want to 
add or change new appendices to my current work.  At the time I thought I was 
mostly finished and didn't want to go through it all again, but now that fond 
wish seems less probable and I'm thinking maybe I should listen again to the 
recommendations I heard then and try out a few of them.

By "extensive", in my case I mean something that can let me set the format for chapters 
and appendices and say half a dozen levels of paragraph headers, using legal paragraph numbering 
(ie 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 etc), lots of internal cross-references and maybe an external URL or three, a 
table of contents ... let's see ... probably not an index.  What I imagine is that I would copy the 
text already written, insert the text markup tags, "compile" the results into Word or a 
PDF, and feel free to add cross references, paragraphs and appendices and recompile at any point 
thereafter.  The documentation user needn't be aware of this process.

Anyone care to tell me again what they like for this task, please and thank you?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him 
from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important.  -Martin Luther King, Jr 
*/

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Re: Markup languages

[Mark Jacobs]

I use LaTeX myself, but you might want to take a look at Markdown. 
https://www.markdownguide.org/

Mark Jacobs 


Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

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--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, December 21st, 2022 at 6:53 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


> I like LyX for this kind of thing. Perhaps because I'm too lazy to learn 
> LaTeX or TeX.
> 
> Tom Marchant
> 
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Re: Markup languages

[Tom Marchant]

I like LyX for this kind of thing. Perhaps because I'm too lazy to learn LaTeX 
or TeX.

Tom Marchant

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