Re: [IceHorses] Melnir's Sensation breast collar
This was right after I got it, so I think I changed the adjustment after that picture. I see one thing I had wrong now. I have two sets of d-rings on the front of my Sensations (1 set is standard, the second is an option) and in that picture, I'd attached the breast collar to the lower set of rings. I think you're only supposed to attached the breastcollar to the top set of ring - that's what I do now. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Video
Are you able to recognize the problem areas in this video? I could only get it to play in a jumpy way. Were there any video clips, or just a series of photos? Anyway, the part about horses tolting to get across lava fields efficiently doesn't ring true. Tolt is a gait that has either one-foot or two-feet on the ground at a time. Thus, it requires speed to keep the horse from falling over, and it's one of the least sure-footed gaits. If you watch videos of horses moving at liberty in Iceland, they are almost always walking or trotting - NOT tolting.When the footing becomes questionable, they tend to pick their way carefully, at a walk. Other gaits, like saddle-rack, running walk and foxtrot, have alternating 2-foot and 3-foot support and are more surefooted than tolt. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Warniong to Karen and others nearby
I don't know if you have it, but in the UK we can get a bright yellow sulphur cream which is for fly strike on cows and sheep. It works brilliantly and lasts for a good 24 hours even with rain. http://www.peasridge.co.uk/acatalog/Fly_Strike_Sprays__Creams.html Thanks. I'll see if I can find some. In the meantime, does anyone know where I can order more VIP ointment? I can't find any locally, and I didn't see it on the Jeffers site. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Video Story of a Foal Born with Medical Problem
We just had a new foal born last week with a bit of a medical problem. Of course I documented the whole story. It risks being a tear-jerker, but there was a morale that I wanted to share with the Icelandic horse community: call the vet right away! Great videos again, Stan. We had the same thing happen with our Hroi, born back in mid April - I'm pretty sure I wrote about it on the list. His involvement was with both front pasterns. Our vet also elected to do the tetracycline drip as yours did. Instead of wrapping it though, he just had just do stretch exercises for him. Our farrier was due out when he was about 10 days old, and he went ahead and trimmed him, and he trimmed him again when he was eight weeks old. From what the vet and the farrier told me, you have a window of about three months to get this corrected before the condition is set and permanent. Most will show some improvement on their own, and many will have full improvement with no intervention...but it wasn't a risk we were willing to take. He's fine now at three months. As for your question about what happens in Iceland: 1) do the foals get sufficient nutrition to be born large? (I think it's more common in large foals, or those who are somewhat overdue, but I'm not sure about that?) 2) Maybe some of them outgrow the condition and are ok. And 3) I wonder if some are deformed and thus eaten, even though it's not usually a hereditary condition. BTW, a good number of foals (all breeds) are born with the opposite condition, slack pasterns. Most of mine have been born pretty normal, but Landi, born a little early, had slack pasterns for a few day. They corrected themselves with no intervention. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] having fun...
I'm impressed. Yrsa is still working on backing up as I stand beside her and walk backwards. She's actually doing quite well with it. Solon is doing great, and I'm sure Yrsa is too. I lose perspective of how much the home-grown babies know... until I meet a five-year-old who's never been handled, or even fenced, before. Bart is doing awessomely well, but he's a blank slate about so many things we take for granted. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Newbie Questions
If possible start riding Icelandics BEFORE you buy one so you can experience the gaits and decide if you absolutely have to have the tolt. My mare usually chooses the tolt first and she can mix everything in with it or give a lovely perfect gait; some days I can't get a trot or a canter on the trail, but the gaits are there and will come out when conditions are right. I agree with that, but I'd add a couple of things. First of all, some breeders/sellers will call any soft gait an Icelandic will do a tolt. I wouldn't argue the point if the word were consistently used to mean soft gait, but it's not, and confusion results, often damaging the horses in the process. If the horses are trained more naturally, they will each offer his/her gaits in a slightly unique way. Even if the footfalls are the same, just as there are infinite varitiations of trot, there are infinite variations of gait. The speed, the suspension, how the horse uses his/her body, the relaxation, etc...all that comes into play - a western-pleasure QH probably won't trot like a bred-for-dressage Lippazaner. Contrast that with the professionally (meaning: traditionally or show-type trained) Icelandics...where the trainers insist that all Icelandic's literally tolt. Most of us on this list think it's rather nasty to force all horses to do any given gait, just because some human decided that it's the breed signature gait.Many Icelandic horses can, for instance, EASILY foxtrot or maybe run walk, but just don't have tolt in their natural repertoire. Foxtrot and running walk are lovely gaits, very comfy to ride, so what's the big deal? I don't think it matters one whit to most trail riders. While I can recognize when any of my horses do, for instance, a foxtrot (now - I couldn't always distinguish the gaits), each one will feel slightly different. And - this is blasmephy in some Icelandic circles! - the conceivable gaits are the same for all gaited horses. Tolt is not unique to Icelandics. Not all Icelandics can easily tolt... just as all Missouri Foxtrotters won't foxtrot (but may rack, step pace or run walk, whatever...) or that all TWH won't run-walk (but may foxtrot, rack, step-pace, whatever). In other words, some Icelandic's might gait more like your neighbor's TWH, or like your cousin's Foxtrotter, for example. I have an Icelandic horse that I got as a problem horse, and I believe that his problems originated in that he's basically three-gaited (and I don't think it's THAT common in the breed, but it does happen) but the trainers insisted that he tolt - literally, the show-kind of tolt...and somehow he ended up with nasty mouth ulcers and gastric ulcers. (Even the phrase tolt training makes my blood boil now.) He's a doll now, a nearly perfect trail horse, but he will never forget that early training. I only ask him to walk, trot or canter. If he ever offers a little more, of his own choosing, that would be fine, but no more tolt training for this lovely boy! My mare usually chooses the tolt first and she can mix everything in with it or give a lovely perfect gait; some days I can't get a trot or a canter on the trail, but the gaits are there and will come out when conditions are right. This would be confounding if I was trying to show her, but I am not, I am just trying to enjoy her many moods of movement. That's not unique to Icelandic's by any means. Many (most?) gaited horses may go through that while they are learning to balance a human on their backs. My TWH mare did that when I first got her (she was three and I was a beginner rider - how stupid was that?) I know now that she's a multi-gaited horse, one who can easily trot and do various soft-gaits...in other words, she's much like an ideal Icelandic in her gaits. If only I'd known Lee Ziegler and/or Liz Graves 20 years ago! I think that Icelandics are a lovely, wonderful, and very unique breed...but it's not the gaits that make them unique! Put the range of gaits in the mix with sturdy, gentle, sure-footed, sensible ponies, and you really have something! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Fw: Sat Nav error TRUE STORY
As the sat nav shows a map, plus an estimate of the time the journey will take, it would take someone pretty dim to follow signs to Gib Point instead of Gib! That depends on the GPS and system/software that you use, and settings within the device. My cell phone has a GPS service and it doesn't automatically show the map, just step by step directions. I love it, but I still can't imagine someone blindly following the step-by-step directions for 1500 miles! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
Sensation makes a breast plate specifically sized for Icelandics. There's a lot of variation in Icelandic sizes. Since most breastcollars have a good bit of adjustability, most of mine do pretty well in arab sizes, although some of the larger ones can use horse size - only, like Penny said, with plenty of room to grow. I heard somewhere that there's a new Zilco size that's much bigger than the older size - from what I heard, it must be more like warmblood or even draft sized. Thus, be sure to ask before you order a Zilco. That Zilco that Janice uses was at the smaller end of its adjustment for Tivar - plenty of growth room - and it sounds Trausti needs a similar size. I use an Arab sized (from Moss Rock) on Tivar, that I can adjust down to fit Sina and Melnir. I'd say that's the best size to try at first. There seems normally to be some overlap in Arab and Horse sizes by most makers. A lot of the tack makers who make custom leather and/or biothane will customize your sizes for very little or even no extra cost. I believe that Dana will for the Sensation accessories, and Lisa at Moss Rock will too. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Fw: Sat Nav error TRUE STORY
I love it, but I still can't imagine someone blindly following the step-by-step directions for 1500 miles! Oh Kevin would...if it meant not having to ask me for directions ;) Ah, I get it now. An unmarried man, or a man traveling alone... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Warniong to Karen and others nearby
The No-see-ums have exploded here and while we have been able to keep the reactions under control mostly - it's a twice a day battle - watch Tivar carefully. So far, so good. I just got in from checking him, and still no signs of itchiness. I've only been putting the Swat on his midline every 2-3 days, solely relying on the EquiSpot, and so far Tonight, I sprayed him and used the Swat, just for extra insurance though. Bart's wound is the tougher project. The flies love an open wound, so I'm putting the VIP fly ointment on it 2-3 times per day. Thank goodness he's so docile, so I can go in and take care of him as needed. Thank goodness it's healing - with two horses staying in the barn and adjoining paddocks most of the day, we have more flies at the barn than normal. I was able to sponge on a good application of Poridon a couple of days ago, and that seems to be helping. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Ofeig's progress
We were off the lead rein today and I was in charge of steering. It went quite well. I accidentally applied the brakes a few times. she is so sensitive to seat that the slightest tilt means halt. I'm really glad to have a halt. We got tolt on the long side of the arena. My instructress fell about laughing because she thought it was the salsa. Both our bums were going to a beat. We also had a whole series of other unbalanced and balanced gaits. That's pretty much par for a young gaited horse. This is your first young horse, right? I don't know if it's comforting, but young three-gaited horses also have to learn to balance themselves in their gaits, even if they don't have so many. When I've ridden my young three-gaited horses (Gracie and Cruise), they would lurch around like drunken sailors at first. It gets better! That sounds very nice. The tolt was the most comfortable. It seemed like it was the one Ofeig favours. Thank goodness it wasn't the hard pace she does in the paddock. Well, we are off to a good start. That sounds lovely. About the hard pace... are you positive that she does a hard pace at liberty? I know that I had a hard time seeing tolt/rack in at-liberty horses at first, thinking it was pace. In tolt/rack, the lateral pairs pick up together, but the front and rear have a different flight path, so they end up setting down independently. For some reason, my eyes can focus on the pick up of the feet more easily than the set down- but I never claimed to have the best eyes. :) You might want to get a little video of what you think is hard pace, and freeze frame it and watch how the legs really move. Are you asking for gaits yet, or just basically taking what she gives? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] breast collar
What do you all think? Too tight? Is there something I can adjust to make it work? I looked at some riders in western tack in some magazines, and it looks like the d-rings are typically lower on western saddles. Maybe that explains why it fit differently on the BMSS. That looks slightly snug to me, so the first thought might be to put longer straps to connect it to the saddle d-rings. But, if you wanted to add the over-the-withers strap, I think the strap might be too high on his neck, based on where those rings fall? Solon is a fairly large Icelandic, right? Maybe a western breast collar might be converted for a smaller Icelandic, but now i wonder if it's feasible for the larger ones. I may just have to order the sensation breast collar. I'll send a picture of Melnir's in a minute. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Two pintos, same height...
Hmmm, not sure I agree with that I have several here that have very long backs, and they seem very common. Our Maja has a long back...for an Icelandic. When I was thinking about breeding her for the first time, I asked some local horsemen if they thought her back was too long. My farrier was the most blunt. He told me that I had become so used to seeing short backs that I didn't recognize a normal-length back any more. It's always good to hear what people from outside our breed have to say. :) Whatever, I don't think I've seen ANY breed horse with a back as proportionally long as Vinnie's. It amazes me that he's so athletic, despite his conformation issues. Short backs are normally considered stronger, but my farrier's perspective is that, in extreme, they also can be a factor in forging or other interference issues. I haven't seen any forging in my herd, thank goodness - well, except for Holly, my TWH used to at times until she matured and we got our current farrier. I guess, like anything, too much of a good thing may not be a good thing, especially if the good thing is accompanied by non-complimentary conformation! BTW, when Carol Brett (from the UK) did a saddle fitting for my Sina, she commented about them often having saddle fit issues because of their broadness and short backs. Liz Graves said the same, so I don't think it's just a quirk of my herd. I should dot up Vinnie, so we can see his angles and joints...but I'll probably wait until he loses a little weight, and until he's grown some more. SOME of his conformation may improve as he matures (maybe he'll end up slightly less butt-high, for instance)...but two-year-olds often appear leggy. I don't think I've ever seen another two year old whose legs look so short. The reason I say that, is that it's interesting to see the variation in saddle back lengths of horses of similar overall back lengths. Icelandic's often have short saddle backs because their loins are long... Longer loins contribute to the lateralness of the horse, so again, too much can be a bad thing. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
bought a weaver texas star concho london tan set for his posse uniform and it is horse sized but had no problem adjusting the bridle to fit. The breast collar I am gonna have to put in a hole on the part that goes to the girth and it is purely decorative, does not add to stability at all really, not like the hunter type. This type is called australian stock collar in jeffers catalog, endurance style by zilco, Tucker calls it Montreal Trooper Breast collar and some call it a Hunter's Breast Plate but whatever, it fits more snugly than a western and adds a lot to stability. I've wondered if it's possible to add a wither strap to a western-style breast collar, like the endurance/hunter breastcollars have. It might not work, but it would be worth looking into. Janice, you might try comparing the dimensions of the Zilco breastcollar pieces to the western breastcollar pieces. It might not work, but if it does, you could preserve your set without spending a lot. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] fat circus pony trick
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ptscNvrAZWg He's so pretty. I think Hroi is going to be that dark bay, which I think is so rich and lovely. I don't get it with the Icelandic color club - I don't understand why black, bay, chestnut are considered boring colors. They aren't to me! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Stephanie rides a good horse
As you might guess from the photo below, it takes a village for Stephanie to ride. She went off to a camp for disabled kids last week and got to ride, swim in the lake, participate in archery and do all the other traditional camp stuff. A therapeutic riding group trailered in two horses and a wheelchair ramp so the kids could ride. I can only imagine what kind of a horse it took to accomplish this. Good for Stephanie, and thank God for patient horses like those, and those who do beginner lessons. Did she enjoy it? Is her enthusiasm for horses tweaked? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Newbie Questions
I'm located in NY and my property is directly on 150 miles/ 9000+ acres of horse trails. Lucky you! My main interest is to ride the trails in comfort. I have an older Morgan/Standardbred (that has been in my life for years) but his trot is a killer. I had massive stomach surgery 11 years ago and I get charlie horses in it when I ride him. I have not had any problems when I ride an Icelandic. I can trot (sit or post) but with my Nicky its just TOO much. Tolting once in a while would be very nice. Then you shouldn't have too much trouble trouble finding a young Icelandic to fit that bill. Any preference on gender? Any size restraints? Contrary to popular marketing hype for the breed, not all Icelandic's are equally capable of carrying weight, although the breed tends to be pretty sturdy. My husband is a tall, big guy and rides a big Icelandic...but it would be too much to ask many Icelandics to carry him for very long. Who knows after that where we'll go. I've always been one to go with what the horse is telling me what they're ready for and I'm not in a rush. Sounds like you should fit in just fine on this list. :) Cherie has a two-year-old filly that I think she still wants to sell. I SHOULD sell a couple of my two year olds, but it's hard for me to give up my babies that were born here. We're both in NC though, not right in your backyard. Young Icelandic's are typically VERY easy to start, if you don't rush them - about the easiest breed overall that I've encountered. Beware of people who tell you that you need special trainers for Icelandic's - horses don't know, or care, what breed they are. They just want fair, loving treatment, with enough leadership to keep them feeling secure - just like any horse. However, many Icelandics are prettty stoic, so that can take a little getting used to, since they often don't show their feelings as clearly as some horses. (Some are very outspoken though, and no rule applies across the board.) If the horse is naturally gaited, the gaits will bubble forth when they are started - just as you may need to refine a young three-gaited horse's trot, you may need to slightly refine a gaited horse's gaits...but the gait should be there with no pressure, no gimmicks, no magic tack or training. Another hint: if you get a chance to attend a Liz Graves clinic, that would be a good place to start learning about gaits, along with Lee Ziegler's book. Liz is great, not gimmicky at all, and her style of gait education/training fits in well with good, humane, basic training of various styles - Parelli, TTEAM, clicker training, other NH stuff, as well as some of the good classical type training. Most of us on this list pick and choose from various humane training techniques, picking what works best for us and our horses. The only method that is right is the one that is as gentle as appropriate and works best for your horse. Welcome! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
I have a very nice Weaver western that I bought for Gusti a few years ago. I was wondering the same thing. Do you have a hunter/endurance style you can compare it to? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Newbie Questions
ago and I get charlie horses in it when I ride him You get WHAT??? A charlie horse is a cramp. I have no idea of the origin of the expression though. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Newbie Questions - stepping pace
I know this has probably been discussed several times on this board, but what exactly is stepping pace? I know what the flying pace is. Sometimes my horse feels like he is going from a tolt into pace, but I cannot tell for sure. After I get him trimmed again and he is balanced I will try to take a video and put it up for everyone to see what they think, that is if I can figure out how to upload a video. Videos are great and very helpful. It helps me to think of the possible mid-speed gaits as a continuum (a word that the late, great Lee Ziegler used) with hard pace at the lateral extreme, and hard trot at the diagonal extreme. The other gaits fall between the two extremes, some closer to pace, some closer to trot, and some in the middle. The stepping pace is definitely to the lateral side, but it is somewhat broken, not two-beat. Depending on how broken it is, it can be pretty smooth, or pretty rough...and sometimes it can be smooth at a slower speed, but rough at a faster speed. You might say that rack/tolt is the adjoining gait on the spectrum, closer to the middle of the range, but isn't squarely in the middle. Since the gaits are a continuum, your horse may (and probably will) find some spots where his gait of choice will morph slightly from one gait range into another. Since saddle rack and stepping pace are similar, and close to each other on the spectrum, it's not uncommon for a horse to shift between saddle rack and step-pace, depending on such subtle factors as terrain, fatigue, if he's going uphill or downhill, etc., even on the same trail, all other things being equal. Of course, saddle fit, other tack, trims, bell boots, extreme riding, bits and other factors can exaggerate those gait changes even more - usually not a good thing, unless you are correcting a pain issue from a bad trim or a poor saddle fit. If you are riding a step-pace, you will feel a side-to-side sway, that can sometimes be comfortable, but apparently it makes some people seasick. The closer it morphs to hard pace, the rougher the ride becomes, and the more jarring the side-to-side feel becomes. If it's a variation of step-pace close to saddle rack, the swaying sensation may be barely noticeable, and the gait may be very comfy. Most of the time, a step pacing horse's head will have sort of a v-shaped bob to it - the head will bob up to the left, down to the center, up to the right, down to the center...and so on. With the rack/saddle rack/tolt, you probably won't see much movement of the head at all, so that's a big clue to look for from the saddle. Here's the order of the gaits, as they morph from the lateral extreme to the diagonal: -hard pace -stepping pace -rack/saddle rack/tolt -running walk -(some people might put foxrack here, but most ignore it..) -foxtrot -true, hard trot Judy has a diagram - sort of an arc - that she uses to display the gait range. For some reason, it makes more sense to me to visualize them on a line, but that's just me. They are what they are, no matter what helps you visualize them. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
I bet a wither strap would work...but trying to see if I could make trausti's snug and functional I found it was too high and would be almost in his throat but I need to put holes and shorten the strap to the girth. You're right. Fitting breastcollars is trickier than fitting a bridle. It seems that once I get it right in one dimension, it's wrong in another, so it takes me some trial and error. That's why I'm not positive that most western breast collars can be converted - but it's a thought. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] In a funk
will the corals be in the shayd janice Note to newbies: Janice is e-mailing from her cell phone which doesn't have spell check. You've probably already figured out that she's the list comedienne...with a chocolate/caffeine problem... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Vinnie's turnout OT
The little show off. Looks like he had an interested audience... Wanda He is a show-off and I think Tifa is in love. I caught the full episode on video. After his little burst of energy, he settled into grazing. When he saw me coming to get him later, he walked towards the barn, ready to go back to his little paddock again. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Trausti was a big star!
Trausti passed his posse certification today! He flunked a couple of areas but did so well on others he passed anyway! Here are pics: Janice, I've been thinking - that's just amazing. You've had him just under two months, and I know you gave him some time to settle before you rode him, and before you took him out. Trausti is one of the most stoic Icelandic's I've ever met, but he's also a sweet, solid citizen. How long did you wait before you rode him at all? At least two weeks wasn't it? And about a month before you took him on a real trail ride? We just can't overemphasize the importance of letting a new horse have some time to settle. Trausti is nine, fully mature, but I bet it will take him a full year to fully get used to his new home. That doesn't mean he can't be used and ridden during that time - as Janice and he proved yesterday. Settling is one of those things that happens in degrees, as the horse gets used to his new environment and learns to trust his new owner. My old country vet used to have a sign in his office that said, The hurrier I go, the behinder I get. Parelli says, Take the time it takes so it takes less time. Janice proved that yesterday, that going slowly can be the fastest way to progress. Too few people have time to give the horses a fair shake. I also noticed that Janice didn't ride him at the event in his posse uniform, but instead rode him in the bridle, bit and breastcollar that fit him well. Wise move, Janice. Suppose during the banner episode, the other bit had hurt his mouth, or if he'd got a foot caught in his breastcollar? A minor faux pas could have been a big mess. Oh, if only more people would pay attention to those little details, and not change too much, too fast. We'd have a lot more well-adjusted horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Trausti was a big star!
my husband said yesterday while he was going amongst everyone taking pics, we are sort of the posse photographers and at the annual xmas party do a slide show of all the years activities, he heard so many nice comments about oh look at Janice's new pony! he said one lady said I wish my legs were shorter like janices so I could ride a pony. can you imagine anyone WISHING they had shorter legs?!?!? I am amazed. I think that says tons that you (and Tivar...now Trausti) are making Icelandic's (and other ponies) look appealing. Isn't that the best publicity of all? :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Saddle dilemma
Ofeig is now backed and being ridden on the lead rein for 5 mins at a time. The problem is she is so wide that Corrie's saddle (Wintec adjustable) is still too narrow with the new extra wide gullet. I need to get an inexpensive saddle that can be adjusted as she grows and will allow her to move. I've been there and sooo done that! I went throught the Wintec gullets - the standard gullets are all too narrow for any of my Icelandics except some of the youngest ones. The Wintec Wide has a spinal channel for warmbloods or drafts - too wide and just not shaped right for any except the very largest ones. The Balance Saddles are nice, but pricey (very good quality though) and many of them were too long for Sina's short back - but I liked them. The Heather Moffet Fhoenix was just ok, but very pricey...but it's wy too thick for a person with a long torso, putting their center of gravity too high above the horse. (That killed it for Cary.) My experience is that a 4-5 year-old Icelandic will still widen by several cm, making most treed saddles that fit at five worthless by age 6 or 7. The best answer I've found for Icelandic's is the Sensation. They are stable for the rider, so comfy for horse and rider, and they have no rigid parts to dig in.I know there are dealers in the UK, so see if you can get a demo. I hope you don't have to go through the pain (and expense) that I did to find a saddle! My 6'2, 235-pound husband and I (5'0 138 pounds) both ride in them, so they can accommodate a variety of rider sizes. We sometimes put a treed saddle on our young horses intially, but basically we start them in treeless saddles, usually the Sensations. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Saddle dilemma
I also like the Smari Clover saddle which is a flex-panel saddle with airbags etc. I don't like airbags or flex-panels for saddles or saddle pads. The flex-panels seem like a good idea, but they don't seem to work in practice nearly as well as they sound. We had one for a while, and the horse (Skjoni) developed an aversion to being ridden, that went away when Cary switched to the Sensation. We then lost a lot of money when we sold that saddle, more than I've ever lost on selling one. I don't like air in panels - if there's not quite enough air, the panels will bottom out and be worthless. If there's enough air to offer protection, then the panel is hard - ever seen someone who has had an automobile airbag explode in their face? They may save lives but they are hardly like landing on a pillow. My daughter had bruises and a black eye for three weeks after she was in a wreck once. (She's alive, so we aren't complaining - but I wouldn't want to use air as a cushion on a daily basis...) Air panels aren't breathable either - if they were, the air wouldn't stay where it's supposed to be, so they are prone to heat build-up. Has anyone seen that video clip that Liz and Dave made about the flex-tree saddle? I think Judy posted the link here once before.That was an eye-opener. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Saddle dilemma
There £780 here. I am considering one. They just look so good. There is a warning that they 'are not for novice riders who rely on a saddle to stay on a horse'. A saddle never stopped me falling off in the past. When Gracie first developed her back problem (about 8 years ago) she bucked me off hard from a treed western saddle. I got slammed around on that hard pommel several times before I hit the ground, and my thighs have never been so bruised. I guess I was just lucky that I didn't land on the horn. I'm pretty sure it would have been better to have hit the ground sooner in that case. Personally, I have found that treeless saddles slip a lot LESS than treed saddles that don't fit. You may have more trouble if you brace off your stirrups, but we shouldn't be doing that anyway. (That was a hard habit for me to break.) Then there is the decision re which model for an icey. Pretty much whatever is comfortable for you. I have two Hybrids, an English Trail and a Dressage model and they work pretty much equally well on virtually all of my Icelandic's. That's not to say that they might not fit a few Icelandic's in the world, but mine is more than a random sampling of 2-3 horses. Robyn Hood uses a lot of them for her Icelandic's, I think even for starting them, and many of us list members use them with great success. Might be a good spare to have around. I have a Sensation for a spare...that I use when someone is using my other Sensations. ;) Seriously, I also have a couple of Torsions that I like pretty well, but of all the treeless and treed saddles I've tried (too many to count), the Sensations are our favorites...and more importantly, they work for our horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
What size Zilco breast plate did you order for Trausti??? How is the fit different from the Sensation Icey size..pros/cons?? I bought that one used on ebay maybe 2 1/2 years ago. I got a good deal on it, which is rare, because Zilco stuff usually goes for a good price even used. At that time, I think they only made the one size breastcollar - I use their Arab sized bridles for the most part. The one Sensation breastcollar I have is a size small and it works for the Melnir/Sina/Saga sized horses, but is too small for the medium-large-to-large Icelandic's like Tivar, Falki and Trausti. (Note that Sina needs a smallish breastcollar, even though she's about the widest of my Icelandic's in the saddle gullet measurement. Small is a relative term.) The Sensations do come in other sizes, but that's the only one I have. The Zilco breastcollar was too big for the small-medium Icelandic's. Zilco can't match the option of custom sizes found with the Sensation breastcollars. I understand that Zilco makes two sizes (at least?) of breastcollars now, so I'm not sure how the sizing runs these days. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
I thought Teev was the tank of all time but for some reason had to let out the breast collar a hole with trausti. I think if I ever order another I will just measure this one because it seems a perfect size for icelandics. That Trausti had gotten so big had sort of snuck-up on me. He almost had a refined look when I got him, when he was five (almost six? I think). He certainly did some serious filling out between the ages of 5 and 9. He was always tall, but he continued to bulk up. He's a good two inches taller than Tivar, and overall, I still think Tivar is one of the tankiest Icelandic's I've seen - just not the tallest. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Vinnie meets Isak and Landi - pics
http://picasaweb.google.com/windgait/VinnieLandiAndIsakMeetAndPlay?authkey=zFfgaYQZbHs Vinnie has some interesting moves in his repertoire, that's for sure. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Newbie Questions
1. Are all Icelandics gaited and if not can they be trained to be by slowly developing muscles? I think most Icelandic's are gaited, but some only walk/trot/canter. A few are pacey - so that depends on whether you call pace a gait. 2. Do they need to be shod to tolt? I've always had my horses barefoot. Horses don't need shoes to gait, no matter what the breed. If they don't gait without shoes or boots, or if they need any kind of special tack or special training, the naturalness of the gait is questionable. Horses MAY need shoes for several reasons: 1) protection, 2) therapeutic reasons, or simply because they have weak hoofs - and those reasons are the same no matter what the breed or gaitedness of the horse. None of my horses wear shoes, because they don't need them. BTW, how do you define tolt? Tolt is simply the Icelandic word for rack, so if that's the only gait you're interested in, then many/most Icelandic's don't do it naturally - not of the flashy, show ring style, that is. Most Icelandic's do other soft-gaits and for most of us, those other gaits are wonderful. Those gaits include foxtrot, running walk, saddle-rack (the less flashy version of a rack) and stepping pace. Many Icelandic's also trot - which many of us consider a plus, but not all of us do. For what it's worth, gaits are gaits, whatever the breed. I think Icelandic's are wonderfully special, but if gait is your only criteria, there are other gaited breeds. The normal terms within Icelandic circles are four-gaited and five-gaited, but those are VERY misleading. I have never met an Icelandic who naturally does the breed-signature five-gaits - if they can naturally do both trot and pace, then they probably can do several (or all) of the intermediate soft gaits. 3. Since I am looking at younger horses and they will not be trained to saddle, what do I need to look for (the potential of a good tolt) and what questions should I be asking? The best book on gaits is by Lee Ziegler: Easy-Gaited Horses. How young are you looking for? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Newbie Questions
what do I need to look for (the potential of a good tolt) Tolting out in the field. ;o] You won't find many Icelandic's tolting in the field...you may see some gaiting, but very few naturally tolt at liberty. That's not a problem to me, because I like the other gaits too- as long as the gaits are easy on the horse and are suitable for the job, then whatever works for the pair is fine by me. And since many Icelandic's are multi-gaited, you may see one trot for a while, switch to step-pace, then foxtrot a bit. I think that's misleading to say to someone who's looking for a young horse. Foals and young horses go through growth spurts and their joints and angles change during that time. Unfortunately, it's hard for a newbie to spot a naturally gaited young horse at liberty - at least and have an idea what gait(s) he/she will do under saddle. Many young horses will go through pacey or trotty periods as they grow. And many newborns of 3-gaited breeds will show some lateral gaits their first few days/weeks of life, simply because of their teeny short backs. Even what they offer first under saddle isn't always going to be what they'll offer as they gain maturity, balance and fitness, so it's not that easy. It's good to look at the parents, but if the parents have been tolt trained to gait (happens in all breeds, unfortunately), what you see may not be what you'll actually get in the baby. If the parents gait naturally, barefoot, no special tack required, no odd shoeing/trimming, then your odds are better...but there's always an element of crap shoot to any breeding. So there's not a 100% guarantee that the foals will be just like their parents - just look around at your own human families if you don't believe me! Nothing I said here is unique to Icelandic's - this pretty much applies to all gaited breeds... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Newbie Questions
I have a few questions since I've gotten conflicting information from different breeders: Lori, I should have asked: what do you plan to do with your Icelandic, and what gaits do you think you want? In other words, do you want an Icelandic with a strong trot, or do you never want to ride a trot? There are all variations in this breed, so it depends on what you need and you want. I'm a big believer that we should always pick the horse that's suitable for what we want to do, not buy a horse and try to make him do what we want. There are people who are happy with their trot-only Icelandic's, and some with very pacey Icelandic's, and of course, there are those happy with gaits in the middle. Are gaits the main trait you value? Are you looking for a show horse, a pleasure horse, or for a partner/companion...or some of all of the above? Do you have one sport you want to pursue, or are you, like many of us, a dabbler? Welcome to the list! (Sorry I forgot to say that earlier...) Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Riding non-fashion tip
If you ride in the heat/humidity like I do, you may always be looking for the coolest riding apparel possible. I rarely ride for more than two hours at a stretch from late June-August, and even then, I melt. I found something great to ride in, but maybe everyone else has already thought of this. If you go to Walmart or Target and check out the exercise wear department, you'll find some long shorts and Capri's that appear to be made of the same stretch fabric as the Kerrit's breeches. They are sort of like biker shorts, just longer. Walmart carries Danskin brand and Target has Champion for about $12 and $18 respectively. The Danskins even have a cell phone/key pocket. I put the real sheepskin seat-belt covers over my stirrups and I can ride at least two hours at a stretch just fine, even posting the trot part of the time. The Champion ones even come in a boot-cut full length. It's amazing to me how much cooler it seems to have my lower leg open - maybe the knee patches on the riding breeches trap a lot of heat. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Janice's Hot Weather Idea
how did I get sucked into this? All I did was wonder what Donny ate to make his drool green Jacki Apparently that was enough. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Riding non-fashion tip
On top of that, I always ride with half chaps. They're the first thing I take off the minute we arrive back at the barn. I have half chaps, but in July-August NC humidity, I just can't ride in them without getting sick. At least not in the Piedmont section of NC - the mountains where Cherie live are much cooler than our area. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Riding non-fashion tip
I think the difference here is that although it can get quite warm (okay Lorraine, not like Arizona) the humidity is usually pretty low. We also do quite a bit of climbing and it is always cooler on the mountain than on the valley floor. The humidity is a huge factor. Early this week, the temps were about 88-90F, but the humidity was low. That felt downright spring-like. We are back into full-bore humidity now, with the temps in the mid-upper 90's.We're often hot into September or October, but the humidity tends to drop after Labor Day. I look forward to that! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Riding non-fashion tip
Just curious...what are your humidity values on say a bad day...and what are they on what you would consider a comfortable day? I honestly don't monitor the humidity numbers, nor do the local weather forecasters give them out as regular statistics every day. Over the past few years, they've moved to talking more about dew points, which is the temperature at which dew forms. I think that number is fairly steady through the day, whereas relative humidity changes as the temperature rises. One quick way of judging is to look at the daily low temperatures. When the humidity (dew point?) is high, the temps won't drop below 70 at night here, maybe not below 75 or occasionally even 80 degrees. Early this week, when it was so pleasant during the days, the lows were dropping to the low-mid 60's, but now the forecasted lows for the next five days are about 73 or so. In other words, it could be worse here than it is right now, but it's humid - trust me! I've watched Janice's low temps in the summer, and I can tell that her humidity is worse than ours. I just know that on some days, it feels like you're slogging through butter to walk to the barn... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Trausti was a big star! (in Zilco tack)
is my camo helmet AWESOME or WHAT janice Totally awesome, Janice. Congratulations to you and Trausti! He's a good boy. BTW, someone asked about Zilco tack yesterday. Trausti is modeling the blue Zilco Deluxe Bridle with matching breast-collar. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Vinnie's turnout OT
I had the camera ready when I turned Vinnie out today: http://youtube.com/watch?v=V1qjymJn5oM Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Relative Humidity
Here's how I get the relative humidity: http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?site=gspsmap=1textField1=34.98417textField2=-80.44944Did you notice the differences in dewpoints? Ours is 68 degrees F., yours was about 46degrees F, Bend, OR about 27F, Wanda's was bout 51F...and poor Janice's is about 74F.Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Vinnie's turnout OT
He looked like he was ready for a little freedom. He does that every day when I turn him out. I would go ahead and put him with the other young geldings, but I want Bart to have someone with him. As soon as Bart is reliably halter-trained and catchable, I'll try turning him out with Vinnie. I think that will go fine, but since Bart isn't truly halter-trained, it would be horrible if they didn't get along and I couldn't catch him. I think the round pen is too small for turning the two out together. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] American Bridle Bit
We start our young horses in a modified sidepullthen we haved gone to a snaffel, but have not been liking the traditional snaffel and some of the problems they can cause, like evading the bit...so we have started using french links, and that has been much better. We use sidepulls too, but when we use bits, we use more French links than anything. You can find them in stainless at any English (hunter, dressage) tack store in sizes from 3.5 to 5.5, for about $20-30. I haven't found that the more expensive bits work better. I have also been looking for biothane bridles. We have 2 that we got from country supply, but have not liked the hardware that they are made with. So we will be ordering 2 of these to try out. Hawaii is hard on tack and biothane is the perfect solution. Check out Moss Rock Endurance. She does great work, will customize sizes for no extra charge, will make them in plain biothane or beta biothane, or with colored overlays, bling, you name it. I like her Freedom Bridles which can be used as a halter, sidepull, bitless bridle, or standard bridle. She has made one this size which is adjustable to fit all my Icelandic heads from tiny Sina (here: http://mossrockendurance.com/images/FBTurq.jpg) to big honking Tivar's head. She made the black beta sidepull for Tivar that has the turquoise stones on the overlay. If you really want a spiffy look, she will make a matching breast collar. Her prices are great, considering she makes everything to order. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] American Bridle Bit
I have a sidepull from this site, and I rather like it. It's beta and doesn't seem to harden when it's cold. Is the one? http://www.canadiantack.com/pics/sidepull.jpg Does it pull up into the horse's eyes? I've leaned towards getting the ones with the jowl strap (not the throatlatch), like this one: http://mossrockendurance.com/images/ChrisSidepull.jpg Lisa does good work with beta and biothane, and will customize them, and hers are very reasonably priced. She made the one I use for Tivar that has the turquoise stones in the overlay. (There's a layer of beta underneath, so the rivets don't touch the horse.)I also have several of her Freedom Bridles, which can be used as a bridle, sidepull, cross-over bitless bridle (I took the cross-over straps off), and a halter. The Freedom Bridle is the main bridle we use. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Alex Orri photo
They are a good-looking pair. You are doing great at finding a relaxed plan to get them used to their new life as at-home trail horses. How old is Alex now? Doesn't it come in handy to have a fearless young horse-obsessed daughter?! I miss those days - mine doesn't get home very often these days. I miss those good times. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Mustang feet
If anyone is interested, I will try to keep an on-going thread based on what we see with Bart and Vinnie's feet. These are real, born-in-the-wild Spanish mustangs, whose breeding hasn't been directed by humans in about 500 years. When I met Bart, he'd never had his feet trimmed, but they had them trimmed once about a month ago while the vet had him sedated for some other work. Vinnie was born in the wild, but was taken into domesticity about 18 months ago, when he was a weanling. He's had his feet trimmed many times. Vinnie was in the first round of Corolla Banker horses brought in for adoption, but about 40 horses were adopted before him - I guess I was the first sucker to look past his small size and odd conformation to see a nischievious cutie pie with much curiosity and intelligence. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT: Bart's turnout
IceBankers. Or Spankers for short. Or maybe Off-shore Bankers - a great way to hide money. (Most of my money ends up hidden in the manure pile...no wait, it IS the manure pile!) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Nosebands
How does one train a horse to keep its mouth shut without a noseband? V The best way is not to give them any reason to ever start the habit. You teach them to bend and flex from the ground, to be relaxed in their groundwork, to trust humans, even from the day they are born. Then when you start riding them, start with a halter or sidepull. When you add a bit (if you do) you keep your hands very soft and giving. You may remember me saying that training a horse is always much easier than re-training a horse? This would be a prime example where that is true. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Black Bart's vet check
Black Bart has been ouchy since the second day he got here, so I had my vet come check him this afternoon. He was not sedated for the checkup. http://picasaweb.google.com/windgait/BlackBartAndDrPatrickSustar?authkey=vOT0e_EmlRw He thinks it may have been a combination of things, but no sign of any current/recent laminitis, which was my big fear. We'll keep watch on him, of course. He has been standing in a 10x10 stall for 9 weeks, and prior to that, he lived on sand. Our soil is harder than sand, and his paddock, while not rocky, does have some small pit gravel in it. Hopefully, he was just sore from the 8 hour trailer ride, and maybe tenderfooted from lack of exercise and from standing on soft footing while recuperating. Prior to today, Bart had never had a leadline attached to his halter. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Nosebands
Well, more accurately mouth discomfort, which could be caused by either the rider's hands or the rider's choice of bit. Exactly. It could also be that the horse needs dental work, or has mouth sores. Tivar had serious mouth ulcers two years ago, so he didn't like ANY bit. He does fine in a sidepull, so that's no problem at all. Horses will sometimes open their mouths when they are distracted, and are trying to evade work. But, that sort of goes back to building their trust (and interest) from the ground. Those things WILL happen from time to time, but it's the rider's responsibility to be sure that it happens as infrequently as possible. I think it helps for us to think of our time together as play, not work. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Pinto pattern?
Well, it's obvious he's a 'straw' berry blonde! V Ok, that settles it. I'm ready to declare Virginia the official list color expert. ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Black Bart's vet check
The gig is up, Karen! These pics prove you just went out and bought a black stallion. He's not wild!! Look at him! You were just trying to convince us he was a wild stallion! ;-) I'm starting to wonder about that myself. Sheesh, I wouldn't have believed this if I hadn't seen it myself. I was all worried, wondering how the vet and I would get this done, and then it was such a non-event, I stepped back and just took pictures. BTW, Runa is in heat. We took her and Sina into the barn to tack them up before we rode this morning. Runa was probably 10 feet away from Bart. He neighed quietly, exactly one time. Then he went back to eating his hay. Of course, Cary says he's scared of mares now. He was probably talking to a mare that last time he got his butt whupped. If this is typical of the Colonial Spanish horses, then I'm in love... ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Night turnout - not
i dont mean to be a wet blanket, but... everything from rabid coons to rabid bats to EPM possums to diamond back rattlers have been found in stalls. Not to mention Brown Recluse spiders. Should I repost the pictures of Thunder's wound? He was in a stall the first time we saw him down - we'd just brought him in to saddle up to ride. That, plus the fact that the vets don't think that any snake in our area could have caused that much damage, is why we believe it was a Brown Recluse bite. I was phobic about putting mine in stalls again for a while after that, but there are dangers everywhere. Of course, we don't have bears or mountain lions here in our area. Yet. That I know of...but there have been rumors of bears about 30 miles from here. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Runa in royal
Runa ricardo, man she's about the most gorgeous redhead ever! and riding like an old girl :) She's coming right along. Her favorite gait above walk is the signature gait of the breed - the foxtrot. ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Roka turns two
She's beautiful, Cherie and what a view! Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Liz Graves Clinic
I have a chance to get to the Liz Graves clinic being held here in Saskatchewan on Aug 2 and 3. I'm just ironing out a few details but hopefully I can make it. Pinch me! You'll have a good time. Will you audit or ride? Liz is just so upbeat and positive, without being saccharine sweet - she's always the optimist, but she's also very honest. Most of the clinic attendees where I've been have just loved her...but a couple haven't, simply because they didn't like what she had to say. Sometimes the truth hurts, although Liz tries her best not to hurt feelings. I'm looking forward to her coming back here this fall. She's a caring, compassionate horseman, and just a all-round great person. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Runa in royal
I am jonesing for a ride. It has been at least 2 months. We are taking them camping next week. Wish me luck Are you taking Scooter and Dagur? Sounds like fun. Did you find some good riding places on your camping/scouting trip last weekend? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] American Bridle Bit
For those who are using this bit, or who are considering using this bit, can you explain the mechanics of the bit and why you would chose it? Doesn't this bit come with different mouthpieces and with and without shanks? Or did I get it confused with another website? If so, that would depend entirely on which version you buy...? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Bit Fitting
Thanks for being so kind to forgive my craziness. Must be old age. If that's the case, then welcome to our club. ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Liz Graves Clinic
I think I'd be really intimidated by riding for Liz Graves or any other clinician, but if I actually found a clinic anywhere near me and decided to ride, would I be able to take Hunter who can't be ridden with a bit? I would love to understand his gaitedness better than I do. He seems to do every gait known to man except hard pace and hand gallop. I can understand wanting to watch someone before riding with them, but the last person you'd ever have to be intimidated with is Liz. That's her forte - dealing with regular folks like us, not necessarily show riders, just sincere people who really want to do the best for our horses. My friend, Shirley, rode Trausti for me in one of the clinics, and she went to another level for Shirley. But, she can also change to relate to a good ol' husband type like Cary. Cary is NOT big on riding in clinics. In fact, he'd NEVER ridden in one pre-Icelandics. He also rode in one at Robyn's, a Centered Riding clinic. BTW, she's a big tack minimalist. At the first clinic I sponsored here two years ago, there were several riders in sidepulls. Janice rode Teev in one last year. If the rider is riding in a shanked bit, but is using it tactfully and the horse is going well in it, she might not say anything. But, if the horse is unhappy, and she thinks the bit is an issue, she'll tell you. She typically carries several of her own bits for riders to try, but she doesn't sell bits. The ones she likes best are generally easy to find, standard bits. Probably make more sense to take one of the Icelandics whose gaits are more straight forward. Not necessarily. It depends on what you want to do and learn. You might be very surprised what she could find in Hunter, and that could be an eye-opener. But, if you want to pick one or two gaits to focus on at first, it can be easier if you pick an easier horse. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] The instigator
But that Teev! He's looking great! Isn't he though? Before he came, I'd asked my vet some questions, like, at what point should I try steroids, etc... Then, of course, that just hasn't been an issue. He walked with me out to the pasture to see him today, when he was out to see Bart. He just shook his head, saying he obviously doesn't have any issue to speak of now. It's just amazing. I'm so thankful that he's here, and that he's doing so well. And, I'm glad that Buck can fill the hole in his life left by the absence of Curly Ray! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Liz Graves Clinic
I wonder if I should take some good conformation shots of him and show them to Liz? Do you think Liz might have a look at him and tell me where she thinks he'll be on the gait chart? Does she do that during clinics at all? During the clinic might not be the best time, because she's typically pretty busy with the riders. But, some organizers will have a day set aside for one-hour private sessions, or may offer them at the end of each clinic day. Not all organizers do though. It wouldn't hurt to ask your organizer ahead of time, to see what they have available. If you get a chance to chat with her, she might be willing to take a look at them if you e-mail them to her later. I know she stays very busy, but she's pretty generous with her time. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Suggestions
I don't have a round pen - rather a biggish oval pen just a little too large to do round pen stuff in. So she has been ground driven, longed on a longe line, led for walks wearing a saddle, introduced to the mounting block and the wheelchair ramp, clipped, bathed and loaded into the tack room. I'm not feeling like she's quite good enough with her geround driving to start riding her. What else can I throw in the mix for fun? Do you have the Parelli Seven Games tape? I like some of the more advance games before riding, like sideways game, hide your hiney and a few others. It's always nice when they've had some introduction to a little lateral work before riding them. You don't have to become a Parelli-zealot to use the games - and they are fun, for horse and human. And, Parelli was nice enough when he designed his program to realize that not everyone has a round pen... AND he stresses playing not working. I'm afraid I am too uncoordinated for clicker training. I just can'tr seem to get it on my own. I think Karen Pryor lives not far from me and also Beth Bliss, who put together some videos, but I'm pretty maxed out for available horse time. What have you tried? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT: Bart's turnout
that will be a domestic riding horse. I have all faith that Bart will make the transition, but that's because he's an exceptional individual from a distinctive breed. I feel sure he'll do it despite his raising, not because of it. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Parelli bit
I like the Parelli programme. We have had more fun with it than with the Click that Teaches. I put that down to using the clicker with it. The click that teaches can be too intense. It keeps me in the right mindset, playful. Ofeig likes it better at this stage. thats just my opinion and I know very little. Sue Coombes I'm not so sure about that last statement Sue. I think you're doing fine. When we're picking through all the works about training horses, we have to use several criteria in selecting what we'll use: what's going to be intuitive for us humans - if we can't relate to a program and understand it, we're not going to be able to use it fully. And we also have to decide what method (or the degrees of a particular method) will work best for the given horse. I applaud you for picking bits and pieces of various methods that feel right to you, and that you think are right for your horses. As far as the dominance part of the equation, I generally try to take the 51-49 percentage routes with my horses...but dealing with a feral horse makes me VERY aware how important those two separating percentage points are. I have to be very careful from the get-go that the advantage falls to my favor. I have clicked him for a couple of things - while outside his stall - but no way will I tempt fate by chancing a mugging phase while dealing with an 800-pound feral stallion. Different training methods have their places...with different horses, or in different phases of the horse's life. If I HAD to chose (and of course, thankfully, I don't) between clicker training and some Parelli-ish flavor of Natural Horsemanship, I'd pick the NH route. I think it's just wonderful that we don't have to go all-or-nothing with any training method/theory. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Overnight turnout (was Re: Fat pony)
At the boarding barn the horses went out around 8 or 9 pm and came in around 7 or 8 am during the summer, then in the winter they were out in the day and in at night, so if I put mine out all night they should remember the old routine. V That's pretty standard at boarding barns in NC too, to minimize the exposure to biting insects. That's why it would be very difficult for someone who boards a horse to have an SE horse, if they want the horse's turnout reversed. My horses are out 24x7. If the grass gets too rich and/or tall (which hasn't happened since last year's drought) I close off some of the satellite pastures for a few weeks. I've come to think of pastures as rec-rooms, not so much as dining rooms. Horses need exercise and mentally, they need to graze and roam. Even the all-day moseying around mine do keeps them more fit than merely standing around in dry lots. Is there a way you can add some cross-fencing, expanding your dry lot and to provide some staggered areas of richness of grass? Adding cross-fencing isn't so expensive, and is something you can add as you get time. I know your property is big, but I can't remember how much you had fenced. BTW, I'm working to get Vinnie and Bart off the rigidly timed feeding schedule the boarding barn had them on. One thing I didn't like was that they both seemed too food-obsessed, getting too grumpy and possessive at mealtime, something we've never had a big problem with here. The last thing I want is an untrained stallion with a bad attitude at mealtime! I'm weaning them down off the pellets they were giving (Vinnie needs to meet Jenny Craig badly) and have started giving them as much old dry hay as they will eat for the switchover period. The change in attitude is amazing - they are no longer possessive about their food, since they seem to think there's no shortage. The hay I'm giving now might eventually be too much and make them fat, but I hope to have them out in pasture where they can get more exercise soon. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT: Bart's turnout
She sort of wiggled, so I put the collar on her and she knew the entire basic obedience routine: heel, sit, down, stay, recall. She'd learned it all by watching the other dog. Not sure if that would actually work with horses, but Bart is certainly going to benefit by watching Vinnie be comfortable with handling. I admit that we include our horses in the rehabbing/training of new horses. It was particularly effective for Cali. She's a curious busybody (and actually a good many horses are) so I use that to our advantage. Part of our daily unwind period is to take a stroll through the pastures, stopping to speak to each horse. Since the horses are curious and friendly, that encourages the new ones to see us as valued visitors, not intruders to the herd. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT: Bart's turnout
So what is the plan for Bart? Gelding and re-homing, or keeping him a breeding stallion for the herd? I've been tempted to make a public announcement that I will be starting a new breed called Island Ponies that will be a cross between Icelandic's and Corolla Bankers. It's not true, but I think it would be fun to get a few busybody tongues wagging. ;) The honest answer is that I don't know. I like having a project horse, and I wanted to try one a little more raw than the past few Icelandic's I've had. I inquired about the Corolla Wild Horses Fund, when I heard they were adopting a few of the herd out. I know how badly that herd is hurting with the encroaching development, and it breaks my heart. This herd is sentimental to me. Being a NC native, I've heard about the horses all my life, and was lucky enough to see a few of them a few times before they were herded up past the end of the public road. Then of course, I got to see all the ones on the trip north of the road six weeks ago. I don't know exactly what I was thinking when I inquired - maybe taking in a filly or colt to play with Princess and Hroi at weaning? I didn't really have a plan, but whatever plan I didn't have, I sure did NOT plan to get another stallion...ever. But, about a week after I inquired, I got a call asking if I had a facility to take an injured stallion they were taking off the beach. Gulp. No. No way. I waited a week or so, and no one else volunteered. Then a couple of weeks later, out of the blue, Cary got a break in his work schedule - he thought vacation was out of the question until fall, but a slack week opened up for him. He asked if I wanted to go back to the Outer Banks - it had been five years since we last went, but we used to go every year. I called, and amazingly our favorite beach house, one that usually stays booked all year, was available that week. It was just eerie how it happened, all falling into place. Then we went, and got to spend time with Bart and Vinnie every day, so here they are. No plan...Bart just needed a place to crash... :) The Wild Horse Fund (adoption league) wants to preserve Bart as a breeding stallion. He's very typey and correct (in the Colonial Spanish sense of the word) and is an unusually docile, laid-back stallion. Their first concern was that he get a good home, and their second concern is that his DNA be preserved. I have adopted them both, so I own them, with the adoption being official at the end of a year. If Bart proves to be too much to handle as a stallion, I can geld him at any time, or they will try again to find someone to take him as a stallion. Time will tell. And no, I have no plans of cross-breeding him to Icelandic's. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Overnight turnout (was Re: Fat pony)
Do you have run-in sheds in the pastures so the horses can hide from the bugs? Mine seem to like their shelter because it's not as buggy as the pasture. I have three run-in sheds, but that leaves the boys in Tivar's herd without a run-in. I could open the back stall up for them to use, but I closed it off to keep Tivar from rubbing and they don't seem bothered by being out all day. There is a big tree that overhangs one corner, so they do have a bit of shade, but they rarely use it. Of course, that pasture is on a small hill and seems to catch any breeze that comes through the area. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] The organizer..or, a Beautiful Mind
He's handsome! (His belly reminds me of Gat's though). V He's going to have to meet Jenny Craig soon...or maybe Isak and Landi... He's waaay too fat for a two-year-old...plus long-backed, short-legged, and butt-high. Other than that though, he's just about perfect. He has personality galore, and he's a gelding, so he's just fine. ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] American Bridle Bit
I started using it a bit ago and really have liked it as has my horses. It is called the Ringmaster and what I really like is that I can use it on several different horses because the bit size is adjustable. It's an interesting idea...but it's $100. I can buy four basic snaffles (French link, mullen mouth or similar mild bits) at any English-type tack store in my neighborhood or online for about the same - about $22-30 each. Then I don't have to do the adjusting for each ride... Does it have any other advantages over a non-adjustable snaffle? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Another trip to Sweden
Great pictures! Thanks for sending them - I had no concept of what riding in Sweden would be like. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Dressage
http://icehorses.blogspot.com/2008/07/icelandic-horse-dressage.html If you look at the video on YouTube, you'll see that the title is First Attempts at Collection. Warning, Will Robinson, Warning! I believe that dressage is a process, an evolution. As Susan C. has mentioned recently, there are a lot of stages to the training tree that have to be in place before collection begins. I had never thought that collection is something that has a first attempt - but that it's something that comes on gradually as the horse gains fitness, maturity and strength.Speaking of maturity, is that horse really just four? Holy moly. I don't believe that they start the Spanish Riding School Lipazanners until they are four, and I don't believe they ever perform before they are at least 10, maybe 12. Some interesting points from those posts: . yes, hats off and all, but honestly, whilst all horses can do, and benefit from, dressage etc etc etc for me the videos make it painfully obvious that breeds are bred for a reason. We bred them to do a job, for which they are best suited. An whilst that wee pony is trying his heart out etc, he just doesn't, to me, present an attractive picture. Amen. Icelandic's are lovely trail ponies. Most can dabble a bit in many activities...why on earth would anyone pick that poor sweet pony to try to do that with...? To not do so much of it that he loses the rhythm. Get in. Get out. Don't go to the point that the horse has is front legs landing long before the hind. Perfect the rhythm in hand. Let the horse get stronger in other work and try gain. I noticed that his fronts were landing well before the rears of the diagonal pairs - making him sorta/kinda/almost foxtrotting the piaffe. I couldn't help but wonder if that's because he's stressed too far, too early...or could it be due to his gaitedness? (Or both...?) Whatever it is, it's not gaiting and it's not correct dressage, so what's the point? It seems just to be for the point of showing off... A 4 year old is too young for the level of work. Just because his brain is willing and his body is somewhat able does not mean we can see the pressure on the joints that are being hammered. At 4, he can not possibly have the proper muscular development to do this level of GP work. The fact that he is not built or bred for it makes it even worse, because he doesn't even have a normal dressage frame to hang his muscles on. Although the quiet work is a testament to the trainer's skills, pushing him this young says very little about her judgment or her capacity to develop life long riding horses. The little guy does seem to have a can-do attitude, and you gotta love him for that. I just wonder why not point that lovely attitude into a direction where he can excel and that won't stress him so much. The half steps are landing front feet first, under saddle, in hand, worst in the piaffe pirouette under saddle. This has nothing to do with the gaited horse's way of going. (Another thread in itself. Gaited horses should also land hind foot first for a good four beat gait. Just as in dressage, front feet landing first denote a horse on the forehand, and an impure gait.) No true, not unless the only gait is tolt, as it seems to be in many tolt-centric circles. In foxtrot, the front of the diagonal pair lands first... I don't know what causes his off-beat trot (stress or natural gait tendency), but I have to wonder, why not pick a three-gaited, built-for-dressage horse if this is what you want to do... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Parelli bit (was Bit Sizer/Bit shopping)
Well, the ever-pleasant Fugly people don't like it, (surprise, surprise, eh?) Here's a thread from March where they are discussing this bit setup:... I should warn 'yall, they talk more about the horse personalities thing than the bit, but it does get mentioned here and there -- and it's an ungawdly long thread! It might be more productive to either 1) ignore the bit totally and stick with a well-known, gentle bit, or no bit, or 2) go straight to the Parelli site and read about the horsenalities directly from the source. I absolutely despise that Fugly site. I'm sure they'd say that every one of our Icelandic's are ugly - too hairy, thick necks, no withers, blah, blah, blah... Those people don't seem to like anything. (FWIW, I don't care for that particular Parelli bit or their saddles, but I learned that on my own by reading their site, not some watered-down negative blog.) Reading about Parelli on the Fugly Site rates right up there with learning dressage from the Icelanders if you ask me...why waste your time on a long thread on that site? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT: Bart's turnout
Seems at ease and happy enough! V On some levels, I think he is, but I have to remind myself that he's just nine weeks from the wild. He's not halter trained, so he can't go into a bigger area until we can catch him and halter him. But, I'm a big believer in take the time it takes so it takes less time. I don't have a particular timetable. I just want all the experiences to be forward, with the fewest setbacks we can manage, and no injuries. I love working with the raw horses, but I'm not foolhardy, and I'm definitely allergic to pain. I was able to rub all over his face today, over his eyes, and around his ears. That was a big step forward. I won't have so much time to work with him until the weekend now though. Poor guy also learned about electric fence today. I hate it when they do it, but they need to respect it, and it's especially important that a stallion not get loose. Sometimes it's just hard to remember that Bart is a stallion. BTW, I took the measuring stick into his stall. I didn't put it all the way next to him - that would have been tempting fate at this point - but he's taller than I thought. He's at least a couple of inches over 13H, probably 13.2. When I saw him at the beach, I thought he'd be 13H maximum. I don't think Vinnie is over 12.2H. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT: Bart's turnout
This is the lesson I have struggled with the most. To this day I get in the today we will work on ... mode. I think I may finally have matured enough to scrap the plan when it's obvious that actually it is not the day. I think it's a good idea to have a plan - but we have to remember that no plan can be rigid. I had to learn that with the first problem horses I had. Sometimes there were days when I was totally at a loss - I didn't know what to do.The irony was that doing nothing sometimes turned out to be the right thing. Sometimes, if you don't know what to do, if you'll just spend the time observing, watching, the horse will give you some signs, and they will lead you if you pay attention. On the opposite end, I was told that Vinnie wasn't really halter-broken and not reliably leadable. I think that was probably correct, but the little guy is just ripe so he was ready to move on and learn. Before the delivery trailer was all the way down my driveway, I'd taken his old halter off and put his new one on. Then I led him around outside for a few minutes. Today, we played with stuff in his paddock. We did friendly game, and started porcupine and driving - every horse needs to have a move away command for safety's sake before you can do anything else. He got it already, so I moved onto playing friendly game with a saddle pad, putting it all over his back. Then I put a kid's beach ball in his paddock and watched him play soccer with it. I didn't have any particular plans for him, and we did way more than I would have ever planned to do. The cool part is that Bart and Vinnie seem to be bonding - they didn't know each other before they got on the trailer to come here. (They were at the same farm, but not too close together.) Bart watched every move (from his adjoining paddock) that Vinnie and I did, and seemed to be quite interested. If I'd made a plan and stuck to it, I probably would have tried more with Bart - and likely have screwed up in the process - but I doubt I would have planned so much with Vinnie. By working with Vinnie where Bart could watch and maybe want to get in on the fun, I suspect I helped Bart along today too - indirectly though, not directly. There's an old Parellism that I can't quite remember, but it's something like, Everyone says 'Don't just stand there, do something', when more often, especially in the beginning, it should be 'Don't just do something, stand there.' I like that one a lot - there's a lot of truth to it. Bart's turn-out time was our 'Don't do something, sit there' time, and I think it was well-spent. We can't make rigid plans for Bart before we get to know him. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Escaping from Paddock
The only problem I have is that in the spring Galsi decided that he could lift the round pen rails that enclose his paddock and crawl out under them - bending the fence in the process. We tried securing pvc pipes from the bottom rails so they would swing when he tried to get under. I don't understand what the fence is made of - is it the normal metal pipe type panels? Or are these metal rails used with posts set into the ground. I can't imagine how a horse would get under any pipe panels that I've seen, since the rails are about a foot off the ground. This situation sounds very dangerous. Also, always be warned of using PVC pipe for any kind of structure for horses too - they can easily break, and when they do, they leave jagged edges. Is he alone? I don't understand the part about: Then we tried inflatable animals - that was good for a night til he figured they meant him no harm. The same with balloons which he delighted in shredding.Where those supposed to be friends or threats...? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Escaping from Paddock
Except when you get one that learns how to pick step-in plastic posts out of the ground and spit them out so the electric shorts out... Those electric fence step-in posts can be handy for some applications, but they can also be dangerous. If the horse can take the fence down - and most can move step-in posts if they are motivated - the wire or rope is left loose and presents a hazzard. Those posts will also break fairly easily, leaving a metal spike that can impale a horse - same if they get pulled up out of the ground, exposing the metal stake. I use a good bit of electric fencing, and I think it's a fine fence choice, but it has to be done correctly, or it's dangerous...just like any fencing.That's why the so-called Paddock Paradise Track System fad confuses me - how on earth can one safely house more than one or two horses in a 15-foot wide track of fencing that can easily and quickly be moved...? Sorry to get off topic, but that fad just scares the heebie-jeebies out of me... I've seen some nasty injuries due to horses getting wire wrapped around their legs. And worse: just last year, a friend of mine had a horse get a piece of electric wire wrapped around her horse's NECK. He was down when she found him, his tongue blue, but she was able to get the wire cutters and cut the wire before it was too late, but it took him about 30 minutes to get up afterwards - she was afraid she was losing him. She immediately removed all the electric wire from her fence and replaced it with rope, more securely fastened. Even the electric rope can be dangerous if it's not securely fastened. She also bought a new fence charger to give sufficient jolt. Accidents will happen, no matter what we do, but that so-called Track System just sounds like begging for an accident... Fencing 101: the smaller (or narrower) the enclosure, the more secure and otherwise safer the fence needs to be. There has to be better ways to watch the weight of our horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT- way OT - wedding
Seeing as the GREAT GRANDMOTHER is out riding and training a young green horse, it's not surprising that the grandmother looks like a teenager. Isn't that the truth?! I showed the picture of the grandma to Cary. He wryly commented that if that's what grandma's look like these days, he now hopes Emily will have a baby soon, so he can be married to a grandma... Always a comedian... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] O/T Sophie
he said he wouldnt actually let him touch his weinie, which jaspar is the same way. His weinie has stuff on it from the paleolithic age. Trausti always seems so terrified of donny at the washrack. I think he froze and went out of his mind, like into a psychotic state of paralysis, otherwise i would have to be so jealous that he let donny do that and not me... I figured it out, Janice. Donny won his trust by feeding them in his drawers. Trausti said, aha, he's one of us, so I can trust HIM ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Nice butt
That is one good looking horse. But, I admit, after the good husband thread, I was hoping for a picture more ... Janicesque. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Four Gaited and Five Gaited
I have to say after owning tivar that my finest horses have been three gaited and my finest gaited horses were the ones most likely to kill someone, until now I have Trausti and he is both fine gaited and mild mannered... but anyway. BTW, Trausti's name is Trausti from Saga California. There have been many derogatory things said about horses from that farm, but I've met some very nice ones - nicely gaited and nice horses. Trausti is very pretty, easy-going (to the extreme of being stoic), and he has wonderful, natural gaits. It just goes to show that you shouldn't believe half of what you hear about farms or blood lines - most of the rumors probably come from jealousy or personal vendettas anyway. I feel sorry for the folks who fall for that BLUP/evaluation crap - they must miss out on some heckacious horses. Oh well - more good horses for the rest of us! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] What Gait / Rocky Mountain Horse
http://gaited-horse.blogspot.com/2008/07/what-gait-rocky-mountain-horse.html http://gaited-horse.blogspot.com/2008/07/what-gait-rocky-mountain-horse-2.html This is still so hard for me - slow learner or perhaps because I am ON the only gaited horses I ever get to see. A guess would be #1 flat walk and #2 stepping pace. I always have trouble seeing the pairing of legs on black horses, so I'm not sure about #1. I think there may be a little more diagonal than even timing, so I think maybe it's more foxwalk or slow foxtrot. I'm not going to swear though. One good clue is that there's some head nod, but you can see that in either flat walk or foxtrot/foxwalk.(You can also see a V head motion in a stepping pace, but this looks to me to be more of an up-and-down nod...?) I like both gaits, so I wouldn't quibble with a horse that gives me either of his own accord, especially on a loose rein. The second one I agree with you on - and I think it's a pretty pacey step-pace at that. When I see a horse pacing like that, the first thing I want to do is check his saddle fit! Anyway, I don't think you are way off base - you may well be closer than I am. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Escaping from Paddock
One possible problem with electric -- we put Ellie in a paddock at our trainers last December, where she proceeded to use the hot electric wire to scratch her poll. You could hear the fence crackle, but her winter coast was so thick she couldn't feel a thing! Has anyone else seen this happen? Yes, we have. I think electric is good fencing overall, but it has to be done correctly. Especially with the thick manes/coats of Iceleandics, you have to be darned sure your fence is putting out enough voltage, which make take several ground rods and/or a more powerful charger. If the fence doesn't have enough voltage, the zap won't be strong. Other complications can be the specific soil in your area ( some soils simply won't ground as well), and how dry you are - we don't get full zap out of our fence when we're in a drought. Electric fencing is dangerous without proper charge. I've heard people say they wanted a lower voltage so it won't hurt so much, but that's sort of like putting the lobster in cold water and heating it to boil because you can't stand to drop a living lobster into boiling water - it's NOT kind! (I've never cooked a lobster, btw.) The secret to electric is keeping the horse off the fence. The various fencing materials - wire, rope, or tape - all have inherent dangers if the horse gets tangled in it. Of course, all fencing materials have some dangers, and we do use electric, but we try to keep it safe. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] such joy
Well last night I was finally able to move Svort and Cali home to live with me. You can look at the pictures of the barn and also last night and this morning at http://picasaweb.google.com:80/jackiedens Jacki, this is sooo cool. I am so glad that you got your dream...and I'm also happy that Cali and Svort (both previously horses with a few special needs) have you. I believe they are just as lucky to have you as you are to have them and this lovely farm. Enjoy, and give everyone (including yourself and Ted) a big hug from Cary and me. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Skjoni saddle-racking
gosh poor cary, how embarrasing! Is this starting a trend?? Have you noticed these icelandics that dont look like miniature saddlebreds or hackney ponies are so well gaited even with the thick fat necks. oh man, we might end up having to throw the weighted boots away if we continue breeding for these fat necks. Janice-- Yep, Skjoni will go all day on the trail at any speed you ask, will let a pre-schooler take a beginner lesson on him, and he will humor me by agreeing to a leg yield or a sidepass... When you get all that he has to offer in this breed, why on earth would anyone CARE what his neck looks like? Skjoni is perfect - just ask anyone who's ever seen Cary with him at a Liz Graves clinic. No matter what question Liz asked Cary about Skjoni (what he saw in his conformation, his gaits, etc.), Cary had one answer: He looks about perfect to me. Liz still jokes about Cary's perfect pony. Sometimes I wonder if the people who obsess about Icelandic necks, colors, and evaluation numbers ever take time out and simply marvel at the joy and wonder in their horses. Cary certainly has that joy in his pony, as I do in all of mine. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Four Gaited and Five Gaited
There are three-gaited Icelandics; they should be acknowledged. It's not right to pretend they don't exist. It's silly not to acknowledge them. I'm darned proud to own Tivar. He has a flat walk but that's about it for gait - but who cares? He's as sensible on the trail as they come, he's built to carry weight, his trot is smooth, he learns as fast as any horse can, and he will go and go on the trail. I could obsess about what he's not, but I prefer to thank my lucky stars for what he is. Tivar shouldn't be some deep, dark secret in this breed. He should be the poster child for the breed - not that gait isn't a wonderful thing. It is, or it can be. And I wouldn't breed a three-gaited Icelandic...but when they pop up, we should just try to find them a home with someone who loves them for what they are. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] X-raying Treeless Saddles
Some x-ray techs on the treeless saddle list are x-raying saddles and finding some interesting things. What are they finding? The only one that I've read that anyone has x-rayed is the Trekker Dressage Master. Isn't that the only one that was x-rayed?It was originally (a year or two ago) promoted as treeless but that claim has since been removed from their website. Now they claim that it has some sort of leather/flex tree. A woman from Australia took hers to be x-rayed, and apparantly the x-ray tech thought it has something much more rigid than leather in much of its length.I've only seen one Trekker treeless saddle, and it was a totally different model from several years ago. Janice had one when she rode in the first Liz clinic that I sponsored in 2006. That particular one Janice had was almost identical to the Barefoot Cheyenne of the same era - I had a Cheyenne at the time, and I compared them. (Neither were on my list of favorite saddles...) Apparently this dressage model is very different. The one Janice had was not only treeless, but very floppy, with nothing at all rigid about it. The x-rayed saddle was supposedly very rigid and also warped - no way a treeless saddle should warp. Honestly, I'm not sure I can tell that it was warped from the x-ray pictures the person provided. For what it's worth, the technician thought some of the parts that were supposed to be leather were probably plastic or fiberglass - not flexible at all. The woman in Australia took hers to the airport to be x-rayed. I most certainly hope people don't start doing that here in the USA. As concerned as I am about saddle fit, I don't want my tax dollars that are marked for homeland security going to do consumer reports in non-threatening situations. My gosh, the delays at airports are long enough these days, thanks to the lines at security checks. Since there has been only one report (that I saw) of an x-rayed saddle, and we don't know the technician who did it, and saddles aren't his (her?) specialty, I really don't think the report was very informative - vaguely interesting, yes, but probably a lot of speculation with not much substance. It's generated a lot of chatter, but not much useful that I see. I used to like that list, but it isn't what it used to be... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Treeless/mounting from the ground
We need to get Kaaren Jordan to give us some mounting from the ground lessons. Granted she weighs about 100 lbs soaking wet, but she has a system that works well for her. I figure it I can drop another 10 or 15 lbs I may demo another Sensation. Cary weights 235 pounds and he mounts his Sensation from the ground and it doesn't slip - he doesn't use a breastcollar either - granted, his style could use work, but he does it. The system that Kaaren has on her website was copied from Christine Schwartz's Joy of Icelandics book, but it's very similar to the way that Pat Parelli teaches too - it's simply a good way to mount. I CAN mount the Sensations from the ground, but I don't very often. I still have a little sciatic damage in my left (mounting) leg. Stretching that leg is a project I need to work on Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] High Heads / Necks
I have a picture of nasi in true collection at liberty but he is being chased and bitten by a donkey. janice I have one of Isak in true collection, but he's peeing. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] X-raying Treeless Saddles
I thought Tivar's white spots, almost perfect rectangles,. were old things. But now when I ride Trausti I see the rubbing in his hair there. Uhm, Janice, WHAT rectangles? I just looked at Tivar's back, and I don't see any rectangles. There are two tiny patches right on his spine - maybe 6-10 white hairs each, but that's it. Don't I remember that he had them when he came here two years ago, before you ever got him? I think he did. I know that he had an unfortunate accident long before I got him with a trainer and a broken saddle tree - one of his first known bucking episodes, if I remember right. Honestly, that was the first thing I noticed about Tivar when he got here. His back is in great shape - no atrophy from either saddle fit or from his old tolt posture. I know he'd been ridden in a treeless saddle for a long time even before I got him, but he would still go into that dreaded tolt frame whenever he'd get tense, way back then. He had some atrophy when I got him - not from the saddle, but from the posture he held himself in, but what was likely learned from the tolt training he had. I don't think I'd blame you (or the Sensations) for the shape Tivar's back is in...I might give you some credit, but no blame. BTW, two-year-old Tifa has more white hairs in her saddle area than Tivar has...and she's never had a saddle on her back. It's great that people care enough to worry about saddle-fit and white hairs, but not EVERY white hair comes from a bad saddle, and sometimes it takes years for the white hairs to show up. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Treeless/mounting from the ground
i have ridden in about every treeless brand there is and they will all slip. The ways to minimize slippage is to have a good pad, and a snug hunter type breast collar. period. no other way if you weigh over about 160. and how you mount factors in. Like if you really spring up there is different than hanging onto the side like you are being air lifted by the coast guard after your boat has capsized in a hurricane, which is how I mount. Cary is 235 pounds, doesn't use a breastcollar. He has a bad hip (otherwise fairly athletic) so he has to waller up (to use a Janice phrase) onto the horses' backs. His Sensation doesn't slip. I promise...it doesn't. His mounting technique is NOT pretty - he looks like an old man getting on a horse. BUT, he knows how to hold on so he doesn't torque the saddle, so it stays put nicely. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Treeless/mounting from the ground
Which Sensation does Cary use? In pictures he looks quite tall. Is he? And do you think that helps? He uses an English trail with a Saddleright pad. He's 6'2 and ordinarily I think that would help a lot. But, he has such a serious hip issue (probably needs a replacement) that his mounting is seriously impacted. I should see if he'd let me get a video of him mounting - he's pretty easy-going, but I'll betcha he'll veto that one. He literally has to waller up onto the horse's back. I'm sure his disability and his weight more than outweigh any benefit the height provides in mounting. Anyway, I'm only 5'0 tall, not slim, and I'm old and crippled. I can mount the Sensations in a pinch from the ground. Believe me, we are both far from the model of youthful coordination, but we finally got the hang of mounting the right way. I use a breastcollar occasionally (mostly for looks) and I doubt that Cary has ever used one even once. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: High Heads / Necks
I'm glad you said that. My new teacher works along the lines of the 'training tree' which is as you describe. It is the basics of classical trainng before specialisation into dressage. I've quoted Jane Savoie many times on the list. Her Cross Train Your Horse book is what I have in mind when the words dressage and gaited horses are used in the same sentence. The book isn't geared towards gaited horses - just ordinary horses, and horses used for non-dressage sports - but the exercises are so solid, and so basic that they really don't seem like dressage. And honestly, much of the early work, before the specialization you mentioned, can be done at the walk, so gait isn't even a factor. It's just simply good, basic riding. It just flabbergasted me when the new Icelandic-traditionalists started talking about dressage, they just seemed to skip right over the boring stuff, and into the flash-in-the-pan glitz. But, then, you see the results of skipping the basics in that picture of Jolli... It is awful. Try looking at the 'Astund riders' section. What do you think of the riders positions? Would you buy that saddle with this advert? Huggin doesn't appear to like his. I didn't look at them this time, but in the past, they have had some really awful ones. No, I wouldn't buy any products if the horses on their sites are supposed to be testaments of their value. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] High Heads / Necks
Do you have any images of how the head/neck should be in a tolt? V I think that's just it - there really shouldn't be a preconceived frame. Whatever the horse does naturally - with maybe a little bit of support at times - is what he/she needs, but that will vary a lot from horse to horse. If you are talking about a true rack/tolt (the single-foot version), the horse is likely to hold his/her head higher, in order to achieve the single-foot support phase. I'll see if I can find a picture of Skjoni saddle-racking. He's a saddle-racking fool, and will saddle-rack on a loose rein. It's not that his way is THE right way, it's just the right way for him... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] High Heads / Necks
If they are trying to breed necks that are set a little higher, perhaps they should first pay attention to breeding necks that are not inverted. That would be a more logical direction to take, especially if they want to have the horse on the bit! That is the issue to me - the inverted necks. I don't even really care if a trail horse has a slightly inverted neck - key word: slightly. What troubles me much more is when the horses are ridden such that the muscles are developed, making the inversion even more extreme. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Skjoni saddle-racking
Here's a series of still shots taken a couple of years ago of Cary's horse, Skjoni, saddle-racking. Again, this isn't so much THE frame that a horse should have to saddle rack...it's just the frame that Skjoni naturally assumes on a semi-loose rein. I think it's fairly typical though, of a horse who chooses to saddle-rack. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.bccf2jvbx=0y=q0g64slocaleid=en_US Skjoni is not collected when he saddle racks, but on the other hand, he's not showing an extreme amount of ventroflexion, nor is he extremely strung out. His head is up (his choice) but he's not star-gazing. Skjoni can walk/trot and canter on the rail in the ring (with me up - Cary usually doesn't bother), and he can do leg yield, and a tiny bit towards shoulder-in. That does NOT mean that he has talent for dressage nor that he he is a dressage horse - it means we've worked on a tiny bit of the basics with him. It also means that he's one fun and versatile horse. :) Here's the video version. http://youtube.com/watch?v=xHdab8atoiA Sometimes Skjoni gaits in the pasture, and when he does, his head/frame is much the same as in the video and the still pictures. He also trots at liberty, but when he does, his head is usually lower - both are his choice. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: interesting device
I said I bought a dark grey and lite greyt camo riding helmet. which you will be so jealous of, you and your peach and aqua boots. I didn't buy the boots, I just looked at them. I figured they would mold in my closet before Princess Buttercup is old enough to ride. So, I'll just have to be jealous of the camo helmet... Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Corolla Wild Horse shootings 2001-2007 on NC Wanted Site
This report was just added to the NC Wanted site about the horse killings that occurred between 2001 and 2007. Please forward to other horse lovers. There is a reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the shooter(so). http://www.ncwanted.com/ Click on the video in the upper right. Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
