Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
Are there any icelandic-style trainers who train for natural gait? How about any icelandic-style trainers that start horses bitless? Judy all holar students are for an example starting their horses bitless and every trainer/breeder wants to have natural gaitedness as it take´s to long time to make soft gait and costy also and do not remain either with less experienced riders. regards Malin busy monht septemebr as we are gathering horses and sheeps down to the low land
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Starting Bitless
Are there any icelandic-style trainers who train for natural gait? How about any icelandic-style trainers that start horses bitless? Judy all holar students are for an example starting their horses bitlessand every trainer/breeder wants to have natural gaitedness as it take´s to long time to make soft gait and costy also and do not remain either with less experienced riders. I have never seen any icelandic-style trainer start riding a horse bitless. That doesn't mean they don't, but I haven't seen it. Is this new to Holar? About when did they start doing this? Also, how long do they ride bitless? Any video or pictures of their riding bitless? regards Malin busy monht septemebr as we are gathering horses and sheeps down to the low land Send pictures! Thanks! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
From the Iceland Review: Tölt is unique to the Icelandic horse. Are there any icelandic-style trainers who train for natural gait? How about any icelandic-style trainers that start horses bitless? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:45:58 -0700, you wrote: How about any icelandic-style trainers that start horses bitless? Yes, there are some of those here. www.icelandichorses.co.uk (Janice Hutchinson) http://www.oakfield-icelandics.co.uk/ (my ex, Nick) several who don't have websites... and me! ; ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
How about any icelandic-style trainers that start horses bitless? Yes, there are some of those here. and me! ; ) Mic, can you describe what you do? How long are they ridden bitless? What type of exercises do you do? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
Mic, can you describe what you do? I don't do much at all under saddle, as I'm large and I don't think it's fair on the young horses who don't have the muscles or fitness to carry a rider, let alone one my size. However - I do start them. My own horses only, so they are used to me and my ways. They are OK to lead (on a loose rein, or completely loose), tie-up, catch, have feet trimmed, trailer etc. I do a sort of bastard mix (mic's? ; )) of Parelli, Tom Dorrance, John Lyons, Magnus Larusson involving plenty of groundwork and bending, and then eventually I just sit on them when they are ready for it. So far, none has reacted in the slightest. We progress to just riding around in the rope halter, in an enclosed space for a few minutes at a time until they know left, right, start and stop, then, due to my build and lack of confidence they go down to my friend who does the rest of the basic work, gets them going out on the trail etc. How long are they ridden bitless? With me, not that long but it varies depending on the horse. At the moment I'm riding 3 horses, 2 go bitless (one in a Parelli halter, the other in a Lindell sidepull) and I've just ordered a new Dr Cook as the one I had borrowed had to go back to its owner) which I am planning to try on Skessa, the mare I'm borrowing from friends. So far as I know she's never been ridden bitless, but she's quite sensible so I'm sure she'll be fine trail riding on her own without a bit. At the moment I'm riding her in a kk double jointed snaffle with a cavesson. I'm not sure I will feel confident enough to ride her out in a group without the added psychological boost of knowing I can definitely stop her if I really need to, which I don't always have from a bitless bridle. My problem, not the horse's. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
I'm not sure I will feel confident enough to ride her out in a group without the added psychological boost of knowing I can definitely stop her if I really need to, which I don't always have from a bitless bridle. My problem, not the horse's. Maybe wear the bit with an extra set of reins. Try to ride mostly on the sidepull, but the bit is there if you need it. Go, Mic! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horseman or Horse Owner
I also didn't see that it was directed at you, Mic. yes, i think so often we have some from one group and some from this one and ne're the twain shall meet but I personally feel we all have a lot to offer one another, a lot to learn from the varying perspectives and Mic is one who has a lot to offer. We squabble sometimes, sometimes people drive me right slap up a wall and I know I aggravate people a lot. I think what judy said was true about a lot of people and she was trying to make that point, but I would not say I would classify you as one of those types Mic! I think we should all try to never forget we need to always think what is best for the horse first before personalities and if we have a different type experience or perspective to offer and it aggravates people, hey what the heck, there might be a ton of people out there learning a lot from it! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horsemanship
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:32:11 -0700, you wrote: I did not know that there was a video already done of the WC?? Neither did I! They are certainly making one, but I wasn't aware it was in production yet. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/3/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 10:04:45PM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: you always see indians in movies riding bareback but I have held Indian hand carved and well worn wooden stirrups... they were really large btw... like EZ rides only wooden and instead of neoprene to absorb shock they had wrapped leather hide. now *that* is clever engineering. very cool! do you happen to know what nation they came from? --vicka. They came from Little Big Horn. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
because everyone from iceland here trains the same way? janice-- No they do not..there are variances. how can you say that with such certainty. have you ever seen any icelandic people over here training? or the results of their training? or rehabbed any horses that have been trained the traditional way? Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
do you happen to know what nation they came from? They came from Little Big Horn. the battle? that would be sioux or cheyenne, yes? --vicka (not an american history whiz)
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:00:54AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: because everyone from iceland here trains the same way? janice-- No they do not..there are variances. how can you say that with such certainty. have you ever seen any icelandic people over here training? or the results of their training? some examples have been discussed at length on this list. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
He took us to his home, where he had a locked room containing stuff I really would have thought you'd find in a museum. he had a lock.of custer's hair (it really was yellow!), a letter from custer to his family, many guns, a tomahawk (the weight and leverage of it would make it easy to kill someone), many many indian artifacts, a lot of this stuff was not just from little big horn so could have been from elsewhere, Sounds like my kind of guy, I would love to see that stuff. our house is full of all kinds of artifacts, you should see the Africa Room, nothing quite so valuable though. I have some stirrups from Tibet and a crupper I got there and but they are metal. Ann
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 11:02:22AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: I am not sure either. I had a history professor who was a Little Big Horn/Custer buff. He took us to his home, where he had a locked room containing stuff I really would have thought you'd find in a museum. he had a lock.of custer's hair (it really was yellow!), a letter from custer to his family, many guns, a tomahawk (the weight and leverage of it would make it easy to kill someone), many many indian artifacts, a lot of this stuff was not just from little big horn so could have been from elsewhere, but I was very impresed with the stirrups, not just that they were carved, but were very glossy and worn where a foot would have rested, and he had some stuff from Abraham Lincoln, letters etc and an actual scalp. yikes. eek for the scalp! that would totally creep me out. the rest of the collection sounds extremely cool, i'm glad he was a teacher and shared that with his students. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
From the Iceland Review: Tölt is unique to the Icelandic horse. Are there any icelandic-style trainers who train for natural gait? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: because everyone from iceland here trains the same way? janice-- Skye wrote: No they do not..there are variances. Janice Wrote: how can you say that with such certainty. have you ever seen any icelandic people over here training? or the results of their training? or rehabbed any horses that have been trained the traditional way? Janice Yes, I have have stated many times. Many of the imported horses here from Iceland have been trained by Icelandic trainers. We have a gelding here (Drifonde) was was trained at Gunnersholt, wonderful, light, easy to stop horse. Talk about Traditional training! Baldur fra Bakka who won the 1999 flying pace WChe was my trail mount for a long time, wonderful horsevery traditional training. I could go on and on. We do have a rehab here who was imported then abused in his training in Ca..very sweet wonderful horse, we took him to a Linda Tellington Jones clinic here on island, and he responded with it so much. My friend who has taught clinics in Iceland and has worked with many Icelandic trainers there and here. And about rehabbing horses that were trained the traditional Icelandic way, as stated before a lot of us feel that any method of training can be abused..even Parellis, Lyons, Clinton Andersons, etc. So yes I can say that with much certainty. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
Baldur fra Bakka who won the 1999 flying pace WChe was my trail mount for a long time, wonderful horsevery traditional training. And Baldur is the one who you told us was sent to Hawaii to retire, and who you also said was sterile due to steroid use during his show career, right Skye? I thought he was the one, so I did a search of the archives. I found this, back when you still called yourself, Storme: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/message/61732 I remembered that post vividly, since he was the first Icelandic I heard linked to steroid use. I'm not sure that he's a prime example to include here, since that brings up still another show/training problem. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.3/986 - Release Date: 9/3/2007 9:31 AM
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Baldur fra Bakka who won the 1999 flying pace WChe was my trail mount for a long time, wonderful horsevery traditional training. And Baldur is the one who you told us was sent to Hawaii to retire, and who you also said was sterile due to steroid use during his show career, righ Skye? I thought he was the one, so I did a search of the archives. I found this, back when you still called yourself, Storme: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/message/61732 I remembered that post vividly, since he was the first Icelandic I heard linked to steroid use. I'm not sure that he's a prime example to include here, since that brings up still another show/training problem. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am not sure why you are equating the steroid abuse with Baldur's training in Iceland, as the steroid use would have happened long after he was exported from Iceland.after his injury. his being in retirement now has nothing to do with his traditional training in Iceland as I understand it. Do you really want to talk about a horse that I ride, who I took care of daily for years, that you have never seen or ridden? Karen, please,..we can talk about show issues, those are really issues for all horses that show and compete...but that is a different subject isn't it.that does not have anything to do specifically with traditional Icelandic training. We might actually agree in our disapproval of some show traditions and practices, though I have to point out that abuse of show horses is an international issue, and we Americans are far, far from innocent in this regard. I can imagine a scenario wherein a European (for example) condemns those Americans for all that soring and chains and pads on their gaited horses! I for one would hate to be labeled in such a manner. You failed to mention the other wonderful horses I have experienced and written about who were trained in Iceland. The gelding Drefandi, for example, who was trained at Gunnersholt.a wonderful horse, just a delight to ride. This is why the all or nothing mentality just does not work, and you seem to be a very intelligent woman, so I just do not understand why you keep using it.it comes across to me as bigoted, frankly. I find it offensive when people take little snippets out of a dialogue and to try interpret them negatively and out of context. I am feeling as if you are attacking me personally, Karen. If you would like to say something to me, email me me privately if you just plain do not like me, but please keep the badgering off the list. Perhaps I could be a little more understanding if I understood why your seem to be increasing in belligerence in your postings lately, especially in response to mine. Perhaps my writing style rubs you the wrong way, but to my knowledge I have never attacked you or done anything to harm you. I've never even met you! I would like to feel free to share thoughts and feelings about my passion- these horses- without looking over my shoulder for a verbal missile from you. Maybe we can just agree to disagree-cordially- with each other. BTW~Storme was my name since birth, my mother named me that. Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just can not put all of Iceland into a neat little cubical and think that all of them train the same way... But they do, Skye. Sorry, but there is very very little variation in how they train, ride, handle horses. If we were in Iceland, and only considered the trainers in Iceland, we would say, yes, we all train differently, but putting that in perspective, as compared to other countries, there is very little variation in how they train. Magnus does a few things differently. They've had Monty Roberts in, along with Dr. Deb, and Peggy Cummings; I did a few clicker clinics, so there's a few new things added to their toolbox, but still, that doesn't make them appreciably different than any other trainer in Iceland. I don't think that many people actually follow thru in using new things that they learn in clinics from foreigners. Judy Glad to see that you acknowlege that Magnus does do a few things differently..and your last line actually makes me sad about foreigners not implementing new ideas. I have been Very happy with the horses that we have purchased, some that were trained or helped be trained by Magnusthey have been light, easy to stopDreki was light as a feather, a breath would stop himand he could do a side pass at a tolt or a walk, very flexible.Baldur fra Bakka, who was trained in Iceland, is so easy to ride, light, easy to stop, VERY easy to stop and he is a world champion flying pace winner of 1999...easy stop, he was my main ride for a while and children could ride him out on the trailsso I guess it is hard for me to buy the Icelandic trainers are bad and Americans (who by the way put Chemicals on horses feet to get them to step high) are great song. Lets see what other country does that kind of thing to horses? The Always/Never thing just does not work for me or for a lot of people.. I also do not think that someone who puts on a noseband a little too snug is as bad as someone who intentionally scars a horse to win a blue ribbon in a show.the first person just might be ignorant of the horses discomfort, the later just doesn't give a damn. I know we all love these horses and we do not want to see them be treated like the legacy of gaited horses in the south, but I do not think Icelanders would either. And we might just agree to disagree, that fine...but I will never generalize that a whole country is bad, and one whole country is good...there are differences in individual people. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
--- Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Janice But Pat Parelli and Satcie Westfall and Lynn Palm have been doing that for years and even judy on this list did it way before that guy. He probably stole it from us :) hey, we're trendsetters! yay. maybe theres some other good stuff they can learn from us! My sister Linda introduced brideless riding to Germany in about 1979 and they were astounded. They have been using it at Reken in Germany and selling the neck rings since they started teaching TTEAM in the early 80's. Linda had been teaching it for about 20 years before that and mostly got the ideas from what she did as a child and from watching lots of cowboy and Indian shows. Nothing new just recycled An example of foreigners learning a new technique and implementing it. We have a trainer here on island who goes to Germany to teach, they fly him over, pay for his trip and his time..they want to learn new things and are willing to put in the time and money to do it. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:47:48 -0700, you wrote: It wasn't just that he rode the flying pace - I understand he rode walk, trot, canter and tolt as well if I am not mistaken. Mic was there I think. I was - he did. It was incredible, I was in tears. I think a bareback/bridleless class would be amazing, but it might get a bit exciting in the finals with more than one horse on the track! ; ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I don't think that many people actually follow thru in using new things that they learn in clinics from foreigners. Note that Judy said MANY. There was that post that someone sent in from the girl she met from the Parelli forum. Of course, she said she was widely ridiculed, but that a few people are starting to take note. I don't think anyone has said that NO ONE is different in Iceland - just that there's only one sort of older, established riding, only one type of competition and one national riding school. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
I think it would be great if they offered a bridleless competition for Icelandics. That is really a T2 competition... Absolutely. What I've seen about the loose rein competitions has NOT been impressive - it all seems to be about macho bravado, sort of like the Icelandic drill team demo I linked to recently where there was much ado over laser lights, but the horses were breaking gait, the riders couldn't even keep their spacing even with a very simple pattern. When I've seen videos of the loose-rein tolt competitions, the riders drop their reins for a few seconds, make a huge hoop-de-doo of raising their hands like it's some never-before-seen feat, then a few strides later, they frantically grab reins as the horse breaks gait. Whoopee. In fact, in the WC pictures this year, it had dropped to an all-time low if you ask me. Now tell me: WHY should riders be allowed to go into a LOOSE-REIN TOLT class with a shanked bit and dropped noseband? If you look at riding skills on any international level, Cary and I are a couple of bumbling buffoons. Yet we can ride either Skjoni or Eitill on a very loose rein at tolt for much further (barefoot, and snaffle bit, no noseband) and we're nobody. On the far extreme, that mounted police drill on YouTube had some glitz and flash to it - but those folks can RIDE. I'm not opposed to some glitz - if there's some skill behind it, I love to see it. No way can I claim to ride like those people, and my hat is off to them. But, it's only sad to me to watch people who think they are showing off when they really aren't doing anything much special. In fact, it's a little embarrassing to watch. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
your impression, however, does not agree with my experience of gudmar or ebba. so i suspect there is either more variation than you perceive or that your baseline is off somehow. OR...maybe some folks will tell certain gullible people what they want to hear. What? In the context of horses? Surely not! (Yep, that was sarcasm.) You might want to go back through the list archives sometime when you have nothing better to do. You can find a lot of details, in the words of many people who have more direct experience than you or me, from the words of Americans, Europeans, and Icelanders. You don't have to take Judy's word for it - the words are there from many people, so you can draw your own conclusions.To make an informed decision, you really need to listen to more than two very young people who have a vested interest in changing certain images. It's not even always a matter of right or wrong - it's simply what it is. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I know that here on the Big island which is tiny compared to Iceland, we only have around 160,000 people living here, most of them do not own horses.however every trainer trains differently. Have you never read any history of Hawaii, Skye?I never lived there, but I read a lot of the history before we visited. You should know that Hawaii's isolation ended about 150 years ago, plus or minus. Hawaii was 'invaded' by American settlers, missionaries, as well as people from other countries. There is a sizable Chinese population, Japanese, Portugese influence, right, in addition to the Americans and native Polynesians? When I was there 20 years ago, there were mini-ranches for sale (very expensive) on the north shore of the Big Island, I'm sure attracting many American retirees, as well as people from other countries. I don't know what's happening now, but the Japanese were buying up much of Hawaii's commercial real estate then. In other words, Hawaii is its own melting pot, partly fed by the American melting pot. It's also a tropical paradise, home (or second home) to a number of wealthy Americans. Now...does that sound much like Iceland? It doesn't to me. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Hi Judy, Having bought horses and tried horses from quite a few farms in Iceland I would say that while there is definitely a strong similarity in how they train, there is a huge difference in the outcome. I don't think that many people actually follow thru in using new things that they learn in clinics from foreigners. Peggy Cummings has never been there but Susan Harris and Peggy Brown have been. Magnus looks at lots of different methods and tries to incorporate them. I am not sure that having Monty Roberts there is a bonus, personally and yet he has had a huge influence in the training methods. At Holar they teach the round pen to start horses and that came from him. But they do, Skye. Sorry, but there is very very little variation in how they train, ride, handle horses. I know what you mean by the training, being similar but what about the huge variety in NH training methods that all go under the same umbrella, they have the same basic philosophy and methods but from what I have seen and experienced in the horses response it is clearly different. So why can those methods all be lumped as acceptable but none from Iceland? While I have seen lots of things I don't like in Iceland - I have also had older trainers come over and give 'heck' to younger trainers for things they didn't like such as a horse I was trying (nearly 20 years ago granted) that must have gotten his tongue over the bit and the trainer had a strap holding the tongue down (not unlike what they do with Standardbreds on the track). The older trainer walked over took the strap off the horse and threw it on the ground, berating the younger trainer in Icelandic about what a terrible thing that was to do with a horse. I think that takes some guts and is looking to be an advocate for the horse. And while I am sure it happened there are some things I have never seen in Iceland or from Icelandic trainers - I have never seen them get into a horse' the way I have seen some trainers at expos - shaking a rope to run them backwards every time a horse makes a mistake, running them in circles until they come to the person, repetitively lying a horse down (for 45 minutes) to prepare for a 'show'. Judy, I definitely appreciate your continued advocacy for horses and feel that you have a lot more openness to accepting what US trainers do than anything an Icelandic trainer could do. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
- Original Message - From: Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy, I definitely appreciate your continued advocacy for horses and feel that you have a lot more openness to accepting what US trainers do than anything an Icelandic trainer could do. Hi Robyn, These are my sentiments, too. I've ridden with maybe a half dozen Icelandic trainers and they were very different in style. Three or four of them I would definitely consider to be good horsemen, who know and follow the principles of good training. As a clicker trainer, I've learned to focus on the positive and ignore what I don't want. It may make the list a little more boring, but in the long run, I think it is a more effective way to change the world. Mary
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
Hi Mic, I was - he did. It was incredible, I was in tears. I think a bareback/bridleless class would be amazing, but it might get a bit exciting in the finals with more than one horse on the track! ; ) That would be very interesting : )) but maybe it could be just judged on the initial individual score. It would certainly add another aspect and I don't think the class would be very large, at least to start with. Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 10:04:45PM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: you always see indians in movies riding bareback but I have held Indian hand carved and well worn wooden stirrups... they were really large btw... like EZ rides only wooden and instead of neoprene to absorb shock they had wrapped leather hide. now *that* is clever engineering. very cool! do you happen to know what nation they came from? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 08:26:30PM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: I have to trust my own eyes, my own first-hand experiences, and my long-term equine experience, over yours. Sorry. and i have to trust mine over yours. sorry. I'm not so sure that a beginner and new owner can see other than a superficial layer. i'm neither a beginner horsewoman nor, after a year, a new owner. my experience is more current than yours; i speak, on average, to two icelanders (ebba in person and another friend/colleague over the net) every week. Especially when that person is vested in who they are expressing an opinion about. and how exactly am i vested in either of them? one i bought a horse from a year ago; the other is my current choice (among some arbitrary number available; i've had half a dozen others) of instructors. But... tell me HOW you see that they are different than any other icelandic-style trainer in how they train and ride. they fail to conform to your script: . tack -- both are concerned with saddle fit, use snaffles, and don't use tight nosebands . riding -- both are quiet riders as i've seen them in real life . priorities -- both prioritize, or at least support me in prioritizing, a quiet, sane horse, not a hypersensitive one (and if you insist that gudmar must prioritize the latter b/c of the horses you see him on in videos, i should point out that he *trained* stjarni, and several of the horses for sale on his site are described in similar calm, anyone can ride terms -- and because i have stjarni as an example, i find this claim entirely believable) . preference for a centered riding-type seat for the rider . emphasizing flexibility and suppleness for the horse . concern for the horse as a living, sensitive, emotional creature in fact i've never met any icelanders who *do* conform to your script, although i am polite enough to presume you're not making it up out of whole cloth and video, as representative of your average horseperson from iceland as a rodeo show would be of your average american. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 08:36:02AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: To make an informed decision, you really need to listen to more than two very young people who have a vested interest in changing certain images. erm. gudmar is quite young; i think ebba is aroud forty, though i haven't asked her exact age. but she's not a very young person. for that matter, if they are the new wave of icelandic horse people, aren't they the very ones we should be watching? or do you think it's still fair to judge american riding by say the fashions of the 1970's? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
i'm neither a beginner horsewoman nor, after a year, a new owner. Umm, I'd say that you are indeed a new horse owner, in my book. I believe I can say that, as I am not a new horse owner, having owned horses for 15 years, and having ridden for over 30. I'd suspect Judy is a bit more knowledgeable than you about Icelandics as well, since she has owned and ridden horses since her childhood, and has apparently visited Iceland on a number of occasions. Is that correct, Judy? Robyn S
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
i'm neither a beginner horsewoman nor, after a year, a new owner. Umm, I'd say that you are indeed a new horse owner, in my book. I believe I can say that, as I am not a new horse owner, having owned horses for 15 years, and having ridden for over 30. That's kind of my thinking too, Robyn! Gosh, when I joined the lists, I felt like a newbie (still do sometimes!) because I'd only owned horses for 15 years at the time. It was downright amusing to see how many lectures I got about how I should educate myself because I'd only had Icelandic's a couple of years. What was sooo funny about it was that I went and looked at the websites of many of the ones who were lecturing me. I remember one had only owned horses about 5 years, and the rest for less than 10. I still feel like a newbie sometimes because I hang around with people who've had horses maybe 25, 30, or 50+ years, compared to my only 19 years. I like hanging out with folks that have seen more than I have though - it helps keep me from getting complacent. I think it took me about 5 years to even feel like the green was wearing off of the green newbie so I could only be a plain old newbie. And I've heard so many people say that when they owned horses that they boarded, they had a whole 'nuther wave of being a newbie to go through once they brought their horse home. Dealing with ALL the decisions of horse ownership often doesn't hit home until you are forced to make ALL of the decisions. I pity anyone who feels like they are experienced after only a year. How can you learn, if you don't know what you don't know...? It also puts the arguments of such a person into perspective. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:06:07 -0400, you wrote: Umm, I'd say that you are indeed a new horse owner, in my book. I believe I can say that, as I am not a new horse owner, having owned horses for 15 years, and having ridden for over 30. This made me think I've ridden for 39 years, owned horses for 34 years, and Icelandics for 21. Been to Iceland 14 times (longest stay 3 months). Bred over 30 foals (the oldest is now 18). Imported over 40 Icelandics I FEEL OLD!!! Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
And I've heard so many people say that when they owned horses that they boarded, they had a whole 'nuther wave of being a newbie to go through once they brought their horse home. Dealing with ALL the decisions of horse ownership often doesn't hit home until you are forced to make ALL of the decisions. EXACTLY! Boarding vs. keeping a horse at your own place are two entirely different ownership issues. Robyn S
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that here on the Big island which is tiny compared to Iceland, we only have around 160,000 people living here, most of them do not own horses.however every trainer trains differently. Have you never read any history of Hawaii, Skye?I never lived there, but I read a lot of the history before we visited. You should know that Hawaii's isolation ended about 150 years ago, plus or minus. Hawaii was 'invaded' by American settlers, missionaries, as well as people from other countries. There is a sizable Chinese population, Japanese, Portugese influence, right, in addition to the Americans and native Polynesians? When I was there 20 years ago, there were mini-ranches for sale (very expensive) on the north shore of the Big Island, I'm sure attracting many American retirees, as well as people from other countries. I don't know what's happening now, but the Japanese were buying up much of Hawaii's commercial real estate then. In other words, Hawaii is its own melting pot, partly fed by the American melting pot. It's also a tropical paradise, home (or second home) to a number of wealthy Americans. Now...does that sound much like Iceland? It doesn't to me. Karen Thomas, NC Karen~ I think we are just misunderstanding each other with these emailsI am not saying that Hawaii and Iceland are similar.I was only talking about hawaii, as what I know that with a small amount of people, there are s many different trainers and each has a different method, most of which I do not approve ofI am picky, as I am sure you are. And We had to take Hawaiian studies in High School during my 11th and 12 grade year hereI graduated Kaleheo High in Kailua back in 82. I just hate homogonizing any cultureIcelandic, Japanese...Chinese, whatever.. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horseman or Horse Owner
Umm, I'd say that you are indeed a new horse owner, in my book. I believe I can say that, as I am not a new horse owner, having owned horses for 15 years, and having ridden for over 30. This made me think I've ridden for 39 years, owned horses for 34 years, and Icelandics for 21. Been to Iceland 14 times (longest stay 3 months). Bred over 30 foals (the oldest is now 18). Imported over 40 Icelandics I FEEL OLD!!! We're all getting older! :-) But seriously, length of time of owning horses is not an indication of being a horseman. People can own horses all their lives and end up only being a horse owner. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I would like to see more pics of people riding from the side so I could tell if they were cantle sitting or not. That's one of my huge pet peeves.. You said it, Wanda - mine too. Riding with legs straight under you is not balanced riding if your butt is on the cantle. The rider is supposed to be in balance within the confines of his own body, but also in balance with the horse...and that includes making sure his weight is in the right spot to move with the horse. If you're cantle-sitting, you ain't balanced! Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Icelandic Ponies
While I have seen lots of things I don't like in Iceland - I have also had older trainers come over and give 'heck' to younger trainers for things they didn't like such as a horse I was trying (nearly 20 years ago granted) that must have gotten his tongue over the bit and the trainer had a strap holding the tongue down (not unlike what they do with Standardbreds on the track). The older trainer walked over took the strap off the horse and threw it on the ground, berating the younger trainer in Icelandic about what a terrible thing that was to do with a horse. I think that takes some guts and is looking to be an advocate for the horse. Good for them! What happened to these guys? What happened to their style of riding and training? Why wasn't it passed down, instead of being passed over by the current stuff? Do you remember the video of the young Icelanders trying to do Monty Roberts' training... yanking a newly started horse around the roundpen, from the ground, while he has a rider on him? And while I am sure it happened there are some things I have never seen in Iceland or from Icelandic trainers - I have never seen them get into a horse' the way I have seen some trainers at expos - shaking a rope to run Well, I think we're dealing with the fact that these are PONIES and not only that, but generally CALM ponies. and pretty STOIC calm ponies. It's a whole 'nother scenario! What would an icelandic-style rider and trainer do with a big horse? Look at the Feldmann videos... he has to have one or two people hold the horse for him to get on it. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Gudmar
Do I really NEED to post the links to the same pictures we posted maybe three months ago? Yes, that would be interesting. Isn't there a video of him doing what he called a dressage demo at EA? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horsemanship
On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:55:56 -0700, you wrote: Did Bruno start riding bareback and bridleless because he saw LTJ do it? He did it because he has a good relationship with his horse. He started after it was presented on the list. He doesn't even speak English Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horsemanship
On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:55:56 -0700, you wrote: (not that he did anything functional except ride the horse in a straight line, on a closed track BTW why isn't there any video of that ride? odd that the WC was video'd, but there's no video of Bruno?). That's another myth in the making. Before heading onto the oval track he spent about 15 minutes in the centre doing a dressage-type display. He was part of the gala show, not the WC itself, so I assume was not on video of the competition. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horseman or Horse Owner
People can own horses all their lives and end up only being a horse owner. Oh, thanks for that Judy. You have never seen my horses, or me riding in person. You are not qualified to make that judgement. I'm now wondering why the hell I bothered participating in this list again. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Mic: Redneck? I don't think so, unless rednecks usually ride in a centered, balanced Classical position... Karen: Do I really NEED to post the links to the same pictures we posted maybe three months ago? Judy: Yes, that would be interesting. Ok, Judy, here are a few. These are some classical-redneck pictures...but not Classical Riding: Butt hovering above and BEHIND the cantle: http://www.icyhorse.smugmug.com/gallery/3008612#163338201 (yeehaw.) Overbent, cantle-sitting, braced rider: http://www.icyhorse.smugmug.com/gallery/3008612/1/163293874/Medium Chair-sitting, cantle-sitting: http://www.icyhorse.smugmug.com/gallery/3008612/1/163336644/Medium Chair-sitting, able to slide off the horse's rump: http://www.icyhorse.smugmug.com/gallery/3008612/1/163286598/Medium Ok, here's a link for many pictures from that event. http://www.icyhorse.smugmug.com/gallery/3008612 This event was in June of this year. Can you show me one that where he's in a centered, balanced Classical position? Remember, if he's on the cantle, he ain't centered! And I didn't really even go into the skiing off the reins, the horses with open mouths, the braced arms and shoulders of the rider... I'm sorry, but the new wave of Icelandic riding looks a heck of a lot like the same-old, same-old to me. Gudmar is always THE name we hear as the best example of Icelander riding...sorry, I'm perfectly capable of riding poorly on my own, without paying to learn how. When I pay, I want to have help becoming a better rider. (Is that really a novel idea?) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Gudmar
Isn't there a video of him doing what he called a dressage demo at EA? I saw a private one that someone (can't remember who) made, but I don't know of a publicly available one. Let's just say he was saying one thing and doing another. I wasn't impressed. He is a kid when it comes to dressage, and it showed badly. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horseman or Horse Owner
Oh, thanks for that Judy. You have never seen my horses, or me riding in person. You are not qualified to make that judgement. Was that directed at you, Mic? I just thought she was making a point to counter what someone else said, claiming to be experienced after owning and boarding a horse for a year. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Bruno
Before heading onto the oval track he spent about 15 minutes in the centre doing a dressage-type display. I would love to see it! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:26:29 -0400, you wrote: Ok, Judy, here are a few. These are some classical-redneck pictures...but not Classical Riding: But even you have to agree that on his website, his position is good. How many teachers do you know who are crap at doing, but great at teaching? I know one hell of a lot, and I think that's where Gudmar is. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horseman or Horse Owner
I think you read something into it, Mic, that wasn't there. Did I? Your reply to my comment about owning horses for 34 years was length of time of owning horses is not an indication of being a horseman. Please tell me how I misread it. The comment in full: People can own horses all their lives and end up only being a horse owner. This made me think I've ridden for 39 years, owned horses for 34 years, and Icelandics for 21. Been to Iceland 14 times (longest stay 3 months). Bred over 30 foals (the oldest is now 18). Imported over 40 Icelandics I FEEL OLD!!! We're all getting older! :-) But seriously, length of time of owning horses is not an indication of being a horseman. People can own horses all their lives and end up only being a horse owner. Judy Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 09:48:44AM -0600, Robyn Schulze wrote: i'm neither a beginner horsewoman nor, after a year, a new owner. Umm, I'd say that you are indeed a new horse owner, in my book. I believe I can say that, as I am not a new horse owner, having owned horses for 15 years, and having ridden for over 30. I'd suspect Judy is a bit more knowledgeable than you about Icelandics as well, since she has owned and ridden horses since her childhood, and has apparently visited Iceland on a number of occasions. Is that correct, Judy? i also owned and rode horses as a child and teen; i'm a recycled rider after twenty years between. sum toto i have about ten years of riding behind me, and four of owning, one of which is owning stjarni. i've also served a formal instructor's apprenticeship and passed a state licensure exam. anybody can come along and say well you haven't done it as long as this other person. you haven't owned horses as long as gudmar has, for instance. but you know, so what? i still exist, the stuff i say is still true, and declaring me a new horse owner is going the ad hominem route. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:28:47PM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: http://www.gudmar.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=categorysectionid=8 id=26Itemid=53 Yeah, and a person can put whatever they want on their own website. How the person actually rides is sometimes quite another. Unless he rides like I like when he's in competition, I could care less what he puts on his website. that's odd, you'd think what a person put on their own website would be the best demonstration of their values and priorities. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 10:55:12AM -0600, Robyn Schulze wrote: And I've heard so many people say that when they owned horses that they boarded, they had a whole 'nuther wave of being a newbie to go through once they brought their horse home. Dealing with ALL the decisions of horse ownership often doesn't hit home until you are forced to make ALL of the decisions. EXACTLY! Boarding vs. keeping a horse at your own place are two entirely different ownership issues. *shrug* i've done both; i was in 4-h horse project as a kid with a horse in my back yard, and i board stjarni. the backyard version was more labor-intensive, but also easier in a way, in that i had constant awareness of what was going on, none of the your horse is lame notes left on the whiteboard, or not knowing where my horse has been turned out or with whom, or any of the other irritations that come with boarding. (that said, i should mention that i really like my current barn and think very highly of the barn owner; it's just the way boarding is.) --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Icelandic Ponies
Hi Judy, What would an icelandic-style rider and trainer do with a big horse? Actually we had two young trainers - male and female here about 12 years ago they were also at my sister Susan's farm when she was in Ontario. At the time Susan was riding at the Royal Winter Fair and one of the riders was Hugh Graham who is a jumper rider for the Canadian jumping team. The two were looking for winter work and he hired them to help take care of and school his horses. They worked for him for 2 or 3 months and he found them to be really good with the horses - riding and otherwise and good workers. So I don't know but I agree a lot can be done with the Icelandics because of their general nature and tractability. However, I find that the majority breeds that I work with are reasonable if you are reasonable with them and I don't see any reason to get after any horse the way I have seen it with clinician many people consider to be good horseman. Look at the Feldmann videos... he has to have one or two people hold the horse for him to get on it. Horrifying to watch what he considers acceptable riding and training of horses. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
... and I both keep horses at home and board. I think it is probably easier to have them at home because I can monitor them by looking out a window. I'm probably an atypical boarder because I feed my own horse (at a full care facility) twice a day and bring him into his pen from pasture every night. In addition to going there to ride several days a week, I end up at the boarding facility as many as four time a day. Fortunately, it's so close I could walk if I weren't so lazy. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Gudmar
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't there a video of him doing what he called a dressage demo at EA? I saw a private one that someone (can't remember who) made, but I don't know of a publicly available one. Let's just say he was saying one thing and doing another. I wasn't impressed. He is a kid when it comes to dressage, and it showed badly. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok, so because he is Trying a new discipline, and showing himself doing it in public, he is being criticized? Lets give people a break when they are learning themselves, as far as I am concerned Dressage is a lifelong discipline, always something to learn, just as with any discipline. Its because of this kind of attitude that I never post any pics of us riding... Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
i also owned and rode horses as a child and teen; i'm a recycled rider after twenty years between. sum toto i have about ten years of riding behind me, and four of owning, one of which is owning stjarni. i've also served a formal instructor's apprenticeship and passed a state licensure exam. anybody can come along and say well you haven't done it as long as this other person. you haven't owned horses as long as gudmar has, for instance. but you know, so what? i still exist, the stuff i say is still true, and declaring me a new horse owner is going the ad hominem route. Then why didnt you say this in the first place?! You wrote that after one year of horse ownership, you no longer consider yourself to be a new horse owner. I would take this to mean that you have only owned a horse for one year. I consider a person who has owned a horse for one year to be a new horse owner. Simple logic, with the information I had. Maybe you can try to be more clear in the future. Robyn S
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Horsemanship
Hi Mic He was part of the gala show, not the WC itself, so I assume was not on video of the competition At the German WC they did include some of the evening show when they made the WC video , so maybe they will do the same thing depending on who is putting the video together. I did not know that there was a video already done of the WC?? Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:47:07 -0700, you wrote: I broke my leg... well, the dogs did it. Our daughter and son brought their dogs over, and the three boy dogs run and have a jolly time when they're together, and they happened to ram into me. Ouch! Hope it gets better soon. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Hi Mic Judy, Oh, I agree - but that's also changing. You only have to look at various websites from Iceland which now advertise horses which stand still on a loose rein to be mounted, tolerate the rider flapping their arms and legs etc. You would never have seen that 10 years ago. When I first went to Iceland in 1979 - that is one of the first things I told people I bought horses from. The horses must stand for mounting and I have bought lots of them over the years that do. What I find difficult is how many people in North America, when they go to mount, don't pick up the reins. I would never consider getting on a horse, especially one I don't know, without any rein contact. Anything can happen. I think, Mic, that it may not be a big jump from icelandic style riding to the riding style used in GB, but that it's a huge jump to the US riding style from the ISRT. Judy, I don't quite understand that statement. Do you think there is only one style of riding in the US? If so what would that be? I think the variety of choices in the US is incredibly diverse, just as the people who live there. :) Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would never consider getting on a horse, especially one I don't know, without any rein contact. Anything can happen. That is very true, but I have to admit, I mount all my horses with a loose rein. But I have spent a lot of time with them standing still at the mounting block, then we stand still for several minutes after I mount up. Sometimes I mount up and smoke a cigarette while I wait for my mom to get on her horse, so mine NEVER take off. (knocking on wood) Do you think there is only one style of riding in the US? Not Judy, but I personally (in my small little world) see two basic types: western on loose rein, and english on heavy contact. And while a lot of people who are taught English talk about contact, what I actually see is them balancing off the rein and the horse's mouth. I think people should be taught to ride without any rein contact before they take up contact, as it then becomes hard for them to know the difference if they ride like that from the get-go (on heavy contact). Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 02/09/07, susan cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not Judy, but I personally (in my small little world) see two basic types: western on loose rein, and english on heavy contact. I work on my contact a lot. I think I have bad hands and I want to develop hands that move with my horse. I've come to the conclusion with watching Dagur move and watching him respond to rein contact - that HEAVY contact as seen in dressage or English riding is detrimental to allowing the horse to develop his natural gaits. The horse must be allowed to use that head nod as a fulcrum. We've seen some nice gaitedness bubble up out of Dagur...but Cara is careful about too much rein contact and she's still just using a sidepull. Wanda
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with that. Proper handling is what I want in my foalshowever if I had a choice to purchase a 5 year old with improper handling, or one with very little to no handling, I would pick the later..at least I do not have to start off with correcting bad habits. Correct. However, we should not accept the only alternatives as not being handled and being handled poorly. We should be on a course to educate owners, breeders, handlers, to handle young horses properly, with an eye to helping them become smarter; why waste the young years when learning is so easy? Judy I agree. I do think that people have different ideas of proper handlingI might be a little more strict about handling than some people here on the listI like every contact with my foals to be a learning experience.we have our babies on a huge pasture in a herd environment and the herd gets checked on almost weekly, with Sally and I going out there mabye twice a month. Her filly (Who is a stunning Silver Dapple Pinto) is very reserved about humans, so we always let her come to us, never forcing her.we will be taking her and her Dam back home this month so we can have the oppertunnity to get to build more trust with herwe would like to be able to halter train, and lead her.but it will never be a force thing, it will be on her time, we will just make sure we have a lot of oppertunity to spend time with her here at our farm.once we get the haltering and leading down, we will send her back to the big pasture with the herd...the herd can teach them so much in a natural setting..we like to do as much as we can possibly to mimic a natural setting for the babies, but with some human contact, as we will be part of their environment for their whole lives. Lots of petting, treating, well, we have seen that type of contact lead to a very pushy horse, that envades a humans spacethen you need to retrain them so that you can be around them in a safe mannerespecially people who do not know a lot about horses, even some who do, will treat foals almost like a big dog, forgetting that those foals will get a lot bigger and stronger, very fast, and what you could do safely at 2 months old, you can not do at a year old.. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Kim Morton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find that if I politely and softly push her head away from me, she stops. I let my horses come close to me and there are some rules, no biting, no kicking, even at other horses when I am around, no pushing. They can be taught to follow the rules, I've been around horses as long as I can remember (almost) and I think some of it comes naturally to me. I like being close with them, they can be very sweet and at the same time they follow directions and be safe riding horses. I actually let them touch me with their noses, they are taught what is appropriate, Perfectly stated! no biting, four out of five of them never try to bite at this point, 2 of them have never even tried it in their lives, each of the other 3 has given me at least one good bite each when I first started working with them, this behavior is natural in certain individuals and can be extinguished, and I still am able to let them close to me, and able to let them touch me with their noses, they are very smart, they get it. A couple of them like to put their heads on my shoulder and give me a horse hug, I love it. This is wonderful Kim. We love being close to our babies and horses...we let them come to us, and they can touch us, but no biting, nibbling or kicking, even to other horses around when we are therethey learn very quickly. We can be in a Big herd of 20 gaited horses, most of them we have owned at one point or own now or we bred them ourselves, and we are very safe just to sit with them out in a huge pasture...no yelling, no arms waving to send them away, just hanging out with them relaxed..it is s nice and wonderful I just wanted to put another perspective out there, it seems like some people think that either horses are to be kept at a distance from us, in order to keep them from doing anything dangerous, or if we let them close, they will inevitably be out of control, no boundaries, dangerous for sure. We are getting awfully close to them when we are on their backs, you would think that you would want to trust them completely in any direction, before you go and get on their backs, if you think about it, being on their backs is a pretty precarious position. I don't really think horses are that dangerous, if you understand them, make friends with them, and set up a few rules, they are actually pretty easy to get along with, Icelandics even more so. Kim Wonderfully stated..my mare is one of my best friends who always comes up to me, just because, treats or no treats, she just enjoys being around mewe clicked when we first met. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
especially people who do not know a lot about horses, even some who do, will treat foals almost like a big dog, forgetting that those foals will get a lot bigger and stronger, very fast, and what you could do safely at 2 months old, you can not do at a year old.. How much does a two-month-old foal weigh? 200 pounds, or 300? More? How many people are really THAT dumb? I think newborn foals are probably the MOST dangerous until they are a few weeks old. They are born with totally blank slates, no real awareness of their bodies, but even a newborn foal can injure a human pretty quickly.MAYBE I'd stand a better chance one-on-one in a wrestling match with a newborn, but one misplaced little hoof can easily damage an eye, or inflict a pretty good head injury. If a person is stupid enough to play with a foal like it's the size of our little pug puppy, then maybe that's just natural selection...of the humans. I really believe the intelligence level of this list is a little above that. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This sort of comment is just as much one of those myths as the ones that they need special saddles and bridles, they all tolt and they can carry 350lb people all day. they always have had to have good brakes simply because of the way motorists on Icelandic roads behave towards ridden horses (ie ignore them completely) How could that possibly be true when we have so many horses imported from Iceland that do not have brakes? Intereresting perspective, that I do not agree with. Of the horses that I have seen and ridden here that have been imported from Iceland most have had great brakes. Baldur fra Bakka, just think stop and he does. Dreki, same thing. Glama, easy to stop Drifonde trained at Gunnersholt, easy to stop, again think it and its done, he is also very forward... Foss, easy to stop Sate, easy to stop All imported from Iceland...all easy.turning on any of them is easy.. The other 3 Bylgia, Funi and Cindri, well Bylgia is now retrahined for an easy stop, and the other 2 geldings are both forward, and easy for an experienced rider to stop, relaxation is the key with them. Mabye some of these imports are coming in with very little training, mabye 30 days, which is very little work.. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Hi Susan, That is very true, but I have to admit, I mount all my horses with a loose rein. That may be fine on your own horse, as long as they are never stung or startled by anything but I personally think it is an unsafe habit to mount horses you don't know without holding the reins. They don't have to be tight but I think they should be held mindfully. I think standing when first mounted is a great exercise. Not Judy, but I personally (in my small little world) see two basic types: western on loose rein, and english on heavy contact. And I see that as a real lack of balance as there lots of space in the middle for light contact. Sometimes western reins are quite heavy and that would give the connection to the horse's mouth as contact (not heavy) rather than loose. When we start horses it is always with a little slack in the reins and we want them to be able to go in whatever gait they choose, when asked to speed up, without interference from the reins. We often use the neck ring to slow them down. I think people should be taught to ride without any rein contact before they take up contact, I would agree with you there. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Janice, Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was skipped.. If you don't have flies and other biting bugs where you live then there may not be a need for a horse to be fly sprayed. Just different perspective on what horses need to know. : )) a good point. but a reminder that I am 57 and Nasi is only 3 and will maybe outlive me. Who know what could happen. I try to think of it as how can i best outfit all my horses to have good homes someday if something happens to me. I have a friend right now, grieving over his horse that died. he is horse looking. People keep calling him to come over and look at their garbage, their horses so horrible they should really be put down and for whatever reason the people havent, one supposedly had a mild hernia and when he got there and looked, a blop of partially digested hay fell out of the hernia. Can you imagine? He paid 900 dollars for a totally foundered lame horse. He took a free horse that any time when tied would pull back and when the halter broke would fall over backwards, jump up and bolt down the road... doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out where horses like that are gonna end up... jmo--- if we love our horses we need to outfit them to be able to make it whereever they might end up if something happens to us... i think for a long time, for whatever reasons and we could talk about them endlessly, but anyway, icelandics have been a breed where they were rarely on the market cheap, were NEVER rescued or rehabbed. Now it is an everyday ocurrence. Just like other breeds. and the bottom has fallen out of the horse market for all breeds... gosh I saw a horse on dreamhorse a couple of months ago that would sit like a dog while you mounted and dismounted, was dead broke, ridden in parades, trails , had been shown and won ribbons. They wanted 1500 or best offer... its amazing. i would not like to be in the business of selling horses now, or trying to find a good home for one of mine. I would lose sleep over it! Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
as a rider of an icelander-trained icelandic horse, i have to add my agreement to this. i actually *drop* contact to ask for some transitions, such as tolt-walk, and stjarni's brakes are excellent. you do have to know this, though, and it's definitely not the way all american riders are trained; my more-experienced students sometimes have trouble with this. i once felt quite out of control on a beach ride where we were cantering along and i increased rein contact and stjarni sped up -- i suspect he thought he was going to be asked for flying pace. (he wasn't, i turned him into some dunes; always careful of his footing he promptly slowed to a walk. knowing him better now, i'd do a left-right, pull-release rein signal rather than just an increase in contact. This is well said VickaSally and I had to learn this way of riding as well.it is especially harder for mebut it makes sense to me now.with Dreki, if I pulled for a stop, he would increase speed, if I used my knees and put pressure to his shoulders, he stopped great. My rein contact meant to go faster, mabye go into flying pace like you said.I ride using my seat a lot now for most of my communication.I aspire to have light contact on the reins.. I know that Iceland is a very big place and not every body who is Icelandic trains the same way.it would be like saying that all Americans train the same way, that would be a ridiculous statement. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mic Judy, Oh, I agree - but that's also changing. You only have to look at various websites from Iceland which now advertise horses which stand still on a loose rein to be mounted, tolerate the rider flapping their arms and legs etc. You would never have seen that 10 years ago. When I first went to Iceland in 1979 - that is one of the first things I told people I bought horses from. The horses must stand for mounting and I have bought lots of them over the years that do. All of my Icelandics stand perfect still while being mounted, its where I am the most nervous. What I find difficult is how many people in North America, when they go to mount, don't pick up the reins. I would never consider getting on a horse, especially one I don't know, without any rein contact. Anything can happen. I learned from my friend here, who has traveled and taught in Europe and Iceland (an American teaching Icelanders to ride, yes) that picking up the reins is a must. I do not know why this was never emphasised to me before...but she has a very eclectic background in riding, teaching and training...her things are they must stand well, and be able to stand with a mounting block, and the rider must pick up the reins and have contact, not a loose rein, but contact, cuz anything can happen, yes indeed. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I know that Iceland is a very big place and not every body who is Icelandic trains the same way.it would be like saying that all Americans train the same way, that would be a ridiculous statement. Iceland is about the size of Rockford, Illinois; less people than Honolulu! relatively small in the scheme of things! Not everyone trains the same, but if you look at the big picture, they have a very small speck on the training method spectrum. Look at the videos and pictures, and it all pretty much looks the same. The mentality of the owners, as we can see from how the icelandic-style riding and training permeated Europe, appears to be tunnel-visioned, only seeing the one style. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
honestly, in the end, the overimprinted horse and the horse never handled have about an equal amount of problems/issues. I say that, Judy says that, nobody listens. They just want to stick their horses in a field and leave them alone so they will be like feral cats instead of home raised kittens. it is mind bogglingly ignernt. and is it spoiling and pampering to ground work a horse? to take them for long walks working on getting them used to things?? thats just nutty. but i know one thing! Taking a horse from a field at age 3-5 and deluging him instantly into a harsh 30 day strict training program gives them life long issues. and that isnt my opinion it is my experience. janice
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/2/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that Iceland is a very big place and not every body who is Icelandic trains the same way.it would be like saying that all Americans train the same way, that would be a ridiculous statement. Well... no. A very big place...? Have you looked on a map lately? There are literally millions of riders and horse owners in the USA with about 10,000,000 horses. Iceland doesn't have hunters, jumpers, polo, driving, western pleasure, reining, steeplechase, cutting, roping, dressage, three-day eventing, rodeosIceland doesn't have a choice of NH practitioners, like Parelli, Lyons, Anderson, Reis, Cox ...The USA has a notable number of Spanish-descended horses, from Pasos to Andalusians. Iceland has probably on the order of 40,000-60,000 riders, and basically one there are 3000 horses in my county that i live in. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I know that Iceland is a very big place and not every body who is Icelandic trains the same way.it would be like saying that all Americans train the same way, that would be a ridiculous statement. Like that photo of the guy riding an icelandic horse doing the flying pace with no bridle and no reins and no saddle. That was awesome, beautiful, mindboggling. But Pat Parelli and Satcie Westfall and Lynn Palm have been doing that for years and even judy on this list did it way before that guy. He probably stole it from us :) hey, we're trendsetters! yay. maybe theres some other good stuff they can learn from us! Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland /Now------- Rein Contact
--- susan cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not Judy, but I personally (in my small little world) see two basic types: western on loose rein, and english on heavy contact. And while a lot of people who are taught English talk about contact, what I actually see is them balancing off the rein and the horse's mouth. I think people should be taught to ride without any rein contact before they take up contact, as it then becomes hard for them to know the difference if they ride like that from the get-go (on heavy contact). Susan in NV Interesting conceptI learned Western riding first, thats all I knew before I bought my first Icelandic. So I had only ridden on a loose rein, and only neck reinedI really was not a good rider I just had a Great horse who was a babysitter. Rein contact was hard for me, as I did not want to hurt my horses mouthso I am told that I have pretty light hands.which is great, but it is because I rode for years western on a horse that never ever needed any correcting..really I was just a passenger, as close to an ATV as I could get and still be on a horse, she was an awesome Appy.but now I am an active rider who participates, I feel like my horse is my riding partner and we go from 2 to 1an extension of my legs is what it feels like when we are in the groove. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: especially people who do not know a lot about horses, even some who do, will treat foals almost like a big dog, forgetting that those foals will get a lot bigger and stronger, very fast, and what you could do safely at 2 months old, you can not do at a year old.. How much does a two-month-old foal weigh? 200 pounds, or 300? More? How many people are really THAT dumb? I think newborn foals are probably the MOST dangerous until they are a few weeks old. They are born with totally blank slates, no real awareness of their bodies, but even a newborn foal can injure a human pretty quickly.MAYBE I'd stand a better chance one-on-one in a wrestling match with a newborn, but one misplaced little hoof can easily damage an eye, or inflict a pretty good head injury. If a person is stupid enough to play with a foal like it's the size of our little pug puppy, then maybe that's just natural selection...of the humans. I really believe the intelligence level of this list is a little above that. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen I was not referring to people on this list, but just people in generalas breeders we get a lot of people and their children interested in Icelandics, as we have given lessons hereand I believe that people are intelligent. However people can be ignorant about how to handle foals...and people need and should be taught. People do the strangest things with baby horses. As Farriers we go to so many places, barns, breeders, etc...and they way most people treat their baby horses is not the way I would ever treat mine. Real Life Examples from Real life Horse People (Some of them Professionals) Colt and its 1/2 draft Dam kept in a 12 X 12 stall for 30 days.(owner did noit want the baby to get hurt) On our day of shoeing their we convinced her to let out the foal and its dam.Sally almost got injured by the chaos that insuedThe owner is a Professional who makes her living by giving riding lessons and working with disabled children, and is certified. To this day you can not handle that baby in a safe way.the owner is scarred of it. Filly allowed to come into owners home and eat off the counters... Professional Polo Player Round Penning foals at 60 days for a half hour at a time (Professional trainer who does futurity on the mainland) Parents allowing their children to hand feed foals as much as they want untill the child is pushed over and crying Parents treating a foal like it actually knows what the Dam knows about giving into pressure, and expecting the foal to do the same. Not touching the babies ever ever and expecting the farrier to be able to trim a colts feet a 1 year old. HA! Grabbing and holding down a filly at 6 months to put on a halter. I myself have been kicked by a 3 day old foal here, our first one (it was a Arab Icelandic cross, A Mistake in the fences from the ranch I picked up my first Icelandic from) She kicked me, so I turned my butt to her and kicked out myself, I never had a problem again, I used horse launguage and she could hear it. People do Stupid Things. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 06:33:51PM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: Iceland is about the size of Rockford, Illinois; less people than Honolulu! relatively small in the scheme of things! Not everyone trains the same, but if you look at the big picture, they have a very small speck on the training method spectrum. Look at the videos and pictures, and it all pretty much looks the same. your impression, however, does not agree with my experience of gudmar or ebba. so i suspect there is either more variation than you perceive or that your baseline is off somehow. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 08:39:44PM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: Like that photo of the guy riding an icelandic horse doing the flying pace with no bridle and no reins and no saddle. That was awesome, beautiful, mindboggling. But Pat Parelli and Satcie Westfall and Lynn Palm have been doing that for years and even judy on this list did it way before that guy. He probably stole it from us :) hey, we're trendsetters! yay. maybe theres some other good stuff they can learn from us! and we stole it from the palouse, right? :) --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that Iceland is a very big place and not every body who is Icelandic trains the same way.it would be like saying that all Americans train the same way, that would be a ridiculous statement. Well... no. A very big place...? Have you looked on a map lately? Iceland has been an isolated island. I'm not saying any of this as a better or worse comparison. It's just what it is. Karen Thomas Ok guys I was talking about the physical size, not the amount of people, but the Size of the island. And not everyone trains the same way, anywhere, and especially here, which is why you should understand that if we do not train the same way here why would you expect everyone in Iceland to train ther same way? Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like that photo of the guy riding an icelandic horse doing the flying pace with no bridle and no reins and no saddle. That was awesome, beautiful, mindboggling. But Pat Parelli and Satcie Westfall and Lynn Palm have been doing that for years and even judy on this list did it way before that guy. He probably stole it from us :) hey, we're trendsetters! yay. maybe theres some other good stuff they can learn from us! Janice-- This brings up the thing I have about Parelli, as I do not like the training methods he uses, but I have never been to any of his clinics. So it might just be that I do not like the way people that purchase his program implement his training methods...which by the way really a lot of old stuff in fancy Expensive Marketing...my opinion. Anyway, All of the people that I see that use the Parelli program do this weird terrible thing with the lead rope...they swing it in the horses face, moving it like a snake, flapping it around. Its ridiculous. The horses become afraid of the lead rope (something I do not want my horses to feel), and if you want your horse to move back all you need to do is the correct posturing without a rope, horses seem to understand body launguage much better than flapping lead ropes in their face.. Does anyone else have that experience with Parelli trained horses, or is it just the people here on the island that seems to abuse that part of his teachings? skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and we stole it from the palouse, right? :) --vicka you always see indians in movies riding bareback but I have held Indian hand carved and well worn wooden stirrups... they were really large btw... like EZ rides only wooden and instead of neoprene to absorb shock they had wrapped leather hide. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
On 9/2/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok guys I was talking about the physical size, not the amount of people, but the Size of the island. And not everyone trains the same way, anywhere, and especially here, which is why you should understand that if we do not train the same way here why would you expect everyone in Iceland to train ther same way? Skye because everyone from iceland here trains the same way? janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that Iceland is a very big place and not every body who is Icelandic trains the same way.it would be like saying that all Americans train the same way, that would be a ridiculous statement. Iceland is about the size of Rockford, Illinois; less people than Honolulu! relatively small in the scheme of things! Ok Judy, com' on. I was actually talking about the size of Iceland as the island it is. I know that here on the Big island which is tiny compared to Iceland, we only have around 160,000 people living here, most of them do not own horses.however every trainer trains differently.I would not take my horse to the so called best trainer on the island, as he trains for cutting and ropingI do not want to ride that way, but hes the best and he wait time for training is around 2 years...plus the fact that I am opposed to Futurites, which is what a lot of his training is aimed for. The other best trainer on the island is wonderful, however he thinks Icelandics are no different than other breeds and thinks he knows everything, as he has worked for King and Parker ranch and studies classical dressage in Germany, and actually teaches some clinics there. There are as many different ways to train a horse as there are trainers. You just can not put all of Iceland into a neat little cubical and think that all of them train the same way...I have to admit it pushes one of my buttons. I have my gelding who was mishandled as an adolescent into adulthood at my friends who is training him for meshe knows how I ride and what I am capable of physically and she is training him for me, especially for methats what I want in training, a trainer who puts the horses and riders needs infront of their Ego and what should be done. There are so many disiplines of riding and using horses, that just becuase a horse is trained does not mean that it is trained for you to ride it. How many of us can ride a TB off the track without any re-traininghow many of us can ride a roping horse, a barrel racer, a pole bending horse? A 4th level dressage horse out on the trail. Now all of these disaplines require a lot of training, but that does not mean I want to ride them without some retraining envolved. Just because you have purchased a trained horse from Iceland, America, germany, whatever...does not mean it is suitable for you to ride yet, and does not mean that the whole country trains the horse in a certain way.there are so many varibles.. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
Hi Janice But Pat Parelli and Satcie Westfall and Lynn Palm have been doing that for years and even judy on this list did it way before that guy. He probably stole it from us :) hey, we're trendsetters! yay. maybe theres some other good stuff they can learn from us! My sister Linda introduced brideless riding to Germany in about 1979 and they were astounded. They have been using it at Reken in Germany and selling the neck rings since they started teaching TTEAM in the early 80's. Linda had been teaching it for about 20 years before that and mostly got the ideas from what she did as a child and from watching lots of cowboy and Indian shows. Nothing new just recycled Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Look at the videos and pictures, and it all pretty much looks the same. your impression, however, does not agree with my experience of gudmar or ebba. so i suspect there is either more variation than you perceive or that your baseline is off somehow. I have to trust my own eyes, my own first-hand experiences, and my long-term equine experience, over yours. Sorry. I'm not so sure that a beginner and new owner can see other than a superficial layer. Especially when that person is vested in who they are expressing an opinion about. But... tell me HOW you see that they are different than any other icelandic-style trainer in how they train and ride. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Parelli?
Hi Like that photo of the guy riding an icelandic horse doing the flying pace with no bridle and no reins and no saddle. It wasn't just that he rode the flying pace - I understand he rode walk, trot, canter and tolt as well if I am not mistaken. Mic was there I think. Bruno did a great job and I think it would be great if they offered a bridleless competition for Icelandics. That is really a T2 competition... Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
You just can not put all of Iceland into a neat little cubical and think that all of them train the same way... But they do, Skye. Sorry, but there is very very little variation in how they train, ride, handle horses. If we were in Iceland, and only considered the trainers in Iceland, we would say, yes, we all train differently, but putting that in perspective, as compared to other countries, there is very little variation in how they train. Magnus does a few things differently. They've had Monty Roberts in, along with Dr. Deb, and Peggy Cummings; I did a few clicker clinics, so there's a few new things added to their toolbox, but still, that doesn't make them appreciably different than any other trainer in Iceland. I don't think that many people actually follow thru in using new things that they learn in clinics from foreigners. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Size of Iceland
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/2/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok guys I was talking about the physical size, not the amount of people, but the Size of the island. And not everyone trains the same way, anywhere, and especially here, which is why you should understand that if we do not train the same way here why would you expect everyone in Iceland to train ther same way? Skye because everyone from iceland here trains the same way? janice-- No they do not..there are variances. Thats like saying all Americans start a horse by tying them up and laying them downsomething that was VERY accepted years ago, and something that is still done today by people in the US. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:30:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: .however if I had a choice to purchase a 5 year old with improper handling, or one with very little to no handling, I would pick the later..at least I do not have to start off with correcting bad habits. Me too. It's easier to start with a clean slate than a horse that someone else has already messed up. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's easier to start with a clean slate than a horse that someone else has already messed up. And that is exactly why I bought babies! Then I know they have been handled correctly, and if I make a mistake, it is on me. Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mailp=summer+activities+for+kidscs=bz
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:35:11 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: And that is exactly why I bought babies! Then I know they have been handled correctly, and if I make a mistake, it is on me. That's a good idea, but having seen how much people can mess up babies even before they are weaned (Oh it's just soo cute when he nibbles/kicks/rears up and puts his feet on my shoulders - yuck) it's not infallible. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Maybe there is no such as thing as over handling foals. Could it boil down to correct handling or incorrect handling? Amen! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 5:21 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
Whoa! Wow how do you go from point A to point B in such a nasty fashion sometimes Janice? I do not feel superior at all, so DO Not Put words in my mouth via email. Skye, SHEESH! You wrote This is a perfect example of why not to over handle foals in my opinion.. And you don't think THAT sounds superior? I belive those words were straight from your virtual mouth. I don't think Janice had to put them there. Gimme a break. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 5:21 PM
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Me too. It's easier to start with a clean slate than a horse that someone else has already messed up. There are infinitely many combinations in the middle though, and when we are talking to intelligent, caring horsesmen, there's no reason to limit the discussions to either extreme - as I think Judy clearly pointed out earlier. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 5:21 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a good idea, but having seen how much people can mess up babies even before they are weaned (Oh it's just soo cute when he nibbles/kicks/rears up and puts his feet on my shoulders - yuck) it's not infallible. I don't think this would fall under good horsemanship (ie, correct handling). I've never had a young one actually try to jump on me, does this really happen? Nibble, yes, I only have one who ever tries to do this now, 2 year old mare, I find that if I politely and softly push her head away from me, she stops. I let my horses come close to me and there are some rules, no biting, no kicking, even at other horses when I am around, no pushing. They can be taught to follow the rules, I've been around horses as long as I can remember (almost) and I think some of it comes naturally to me. I like being close with them, they can be very sweet and at the same time they follow directions and be safe riding horses. I actually let them touch me with their noses, they are taught what is appropriate, no biting, four out of five of them never try to bite at this point, 2 of them have never even tried it in their lives, each of the other 3 has given me at least one good bite each when I first started working with them, this behavior is natural in certain individuals and can be extinguished, and I still am able to let them close to me, and able to let them touch me with their noses, they are very smart, they get it. A couple of them like to put their heads on my shoulder and give me a horse hug, I love it. I just wanted to put another perspective out there, it seems like some people think that either horses are to be kept at a distance from us, in order to keep them from doing anything dangerous, or if we let them close, they will inevitably be out of control, no boundaries, dangerous for sure. We are getting awfully close to them when we are on their backs, you would think that you would want to trust them completely in any direction, before you go and get on their backs, if you think about it, being on their backs is a pretty precarious position. I don't really think horses are that dangerous, if you understand them, make friends with them, and set up a few rules, they are actually pretty easy to get along with, Icelandics even more so. Kim
Re: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Oh well, I was going to stay out of this because I don't raise foals and because we had the good fortune of buying two young Icelandic mares that were apparently mostly well handled. However, I once bought a very fancy Section A Welsh pony for my grandson. I'd probably had horses for 35+ years or so when I bought Summer. She'd been raised by this sweet older couple who brought her into the house and referred to as their baby. I will never know what part of Summer's very bad behaviors were caused by poor early handling and what part were just built in, but she was a little witch. I really never had much success in fixing her. We sent her to a pony trainer (now my grandaughter-in-law), who started her for Gabe. He rode her over fences in some hunter schooling shows and she was just as fancy and successful as I thought she would be. but a real brat to handle. We traded her to Ellie for a quarter horse when Gabe got too big for her. The day I went to load her to make the trade, I took her through the gait and she made a bee-line at a full gallop for the trailer, jerking the rope out of my hands. She self-loaded, but in the rudest possible way. She ended up on the pony circuit down in Florida and was showing in some very exhaulted company, but last I hear she was still a real stinker. Early handling? Who knows, but whatever it was, she never changed very much. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland
yes please, gimme a break too. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a good idea, but having seen how much people can mess up babies even before they are weaned (Oh it's just soo cute when he nibbles/kicks/rears up and puts his feet on my shoulders - yuck) it's not infallible. Mic yes and like my stonewall that was orphaned and overhandled, people should remember with foals they should be handled like wildlife rescuers-- treated well and lovingly handled but also bearing in mind you wont be doing them any favors if you treat them like a human instead of like their own kind. Janice yipie tie yie yo
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I have my A number one guy, my main horse jas, he was not taken from a pasture til he was three and then abused for 30 days, dragged behind a tractor, lashed in the face for spooking, beaten for being afraid. Then I have my stonewall, orphaned foal, taken into the livingroom to be bottle fed on the italian leather sofa before the fire and allowed to live with the humans like a dog til I got him at age 15 months. Today they are remarkably similar in many ways when it comes to obedience but on the ground one is distant and stoic and the other is a loving puppy. I kiss them both on the lips and if they are galloping directly toward me full blown I can just turn and walk away and not even worry about being run down. being overimprinted has its own complications. Being never handled has its own complications. I know the difference. I kiss my horses on the lips but I also grouch and whack them on the shoulder if they act aggressive and disrespectful. Sometimes I cant help but laugh tho, they can be so funny, but then I have laughed at funerals. thats just me. I also have a horse that is so well trained he will move off the least leg pressure and rides in a sidepull like a dream, responding to every least subtle cue, but i cannot for the life of me comprehend how this horse got to be ten years old and dances like a nut when you try to fly spray him. Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was skipped.. jmo. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Hi Janice, Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was skipped.. If you don't have flies and other biting bugs where you live then there may not be a need for a horse to be fly sprayed. Just different perspective on what horses need to know. : )) Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
