Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *CwG: Right, you have seven days to produce your ID card at any police *station -- here's the appropriate bit of paper to bring along with it. *Me: Right ho. Have a nice day. I don't know that you could get away with that in the US as they'd track down the owner of the car after 7 days What car are you talking about? There is no car.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * * I don't know that you could get away with that in the US as they'd track * down the owner of the car after 7 days * *What car are you talking about? There is no car. Perhaps you forgot in this long pointless thread, that you started picking on drivers licenses. e.
Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Sam Vilain wrote: /me considers getting all his amalgam fillings changed to composite... Paul Makepeace wrote: The danger is vaporizing the mercury as the drill goes in - which makes it several orders of magnitude easier to penetrate gum cell walls. You can end up getting dosed more in those few minutes than what would naturally seep out via saliva tooth over its remaining life. Absolutely. There is a prescribed protocol for removing mercury amalgam fillings, which includes the use of a rubber dam, high speed suction, external air source, etc. Doses of charcoal and organic seaweed immediately before extraction helps with binding and excretion of whatever gets past the other precautions. My s.o. also took 10 grams of intravenous vitamin C during the procedure. Subsequest detox has been largely 'natural'; vitamin C, seagreens seaweed, selenium, and coriander. There's also a sulfur/zinc cleansing cycle but she's allergic to sulfur. The mercury in the fillings is not so much seeping out into your mouth as it is vapourising. The rate of vapourisation increases when chewing, as you'd expect. It also is higher in people who have a mixture of metal fillings, such as both mercury and gold. I imagine that there is some battery-type effect going on. Speaking of battery effects, Huggins reports that his patients don't seem to recover unless the fillings are removed in a certain order, and that order is determined by the voltage across each filling. There are other time-based ordering issues that he can't always explain but finds to be true (because patients don't recover when these rules are violated). Jason Clifford wrote: Everything I've seen on that issue indicates that it's a danger only for those who have an allergic reaction to the mercury traces. The official figures are something like 2-3% of the UK population being allergic to mercury. I suspect that this is on the low side, given how common are symptoms that may well be mercury-related. Migranes, depression, mood swings, joint pain that is assumed to be arthritis or similar without the associated structures being discovered, etc. Jason Clifford wrote: It's not possible to composite for all filings either which is a problem for those of us who have needed root canal filing work. To my knowledge, there is no filling that requires mercury amalgam, although I have heard that many dentists say that they do. I think that these statements stem from a lack of ability on the part of the dentist, or a lack of commitment to mercury-free alternatives. My s.o. has both root-filled teeth and crowns, none of which are now mercury based. Root fillings are particularly nasty because not even the mercury-free dentists agree on what substances are safe to use. Anything I report is doubtless slightly twisted. It's my s.o. that is the local expert, having read everything she could get her hands on about her illnesses. I've read little about it myself, but hear about every new discovery she makes. Our only regret is that we didn't know about and/or believe in the problems with mercury fillings five years ago. I have reached the point that if I had any persistent complaint or serious illness I would have my fillings changed by someone who knows what they're doing. In fact, I had mine out last fall just for laughs. Since then I'm rarely struck with a flu/cold, rarely have a headache, and have more energy that I used to. Colds were a monthly occurrence for me from the time that we moved to London, now I have trouble remembering when the last one was. (Obviously my brain still needs work!) best regards, Philip P.S. This is a day or so delayed and doubtless not threaded properly because I've changed subscription addresses and mail clients to accommodate the recent multi-part problem. --
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:48, Philip Hellyer wrote; To my knowledge, there is no filling that requires mercury amalgam, although I have heard that many dentists say that they do. I think that these statements stem from a lack of ability on the part of the dentist, or a lack of commitment to mercury-free alternatives. My s.o. has both root-filled teeth and crowns, none of which are now mercury based. Root fillings are particularly nasty because not even the mercury-free dentists agree on what substances are safe to use. My other half is a dental assistant, so I've had some of these matters drilled into me (boom boom). Always ask for `composite' fillings. They should be a gooey plastic that is set with a blue or green light. I've had teeth that strictly speaking needed a crown (a complete reconstruction of the top of the tooth) and where 75% of the tooth was missing. There is no excuse for not using it. She had to ask around in NZ to find a dentist that would do `thermo-fill' root canal treatment. This method is fast (took under 45 minutes for me) and safe. -- Sam Vilain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Civilization is a movement, not a condition; it is a voyage, not a harbor. - Toynbee -
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 03:48:06PM +0100, Philip Hellyer wrote: My s.o. also took 10 grams of intravenous vitamin C during the procedure. Isn't that above the level where vitamin C will crystalise out of urine and potentially cause damage to the urethra? I mean, the RDA for vitamin C is only, what, 60 milligrams? This seems awfully high to me. Ben
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Je 2003-09-02 18:01:12 +0100, Ben skribis: I mean, the RDA for vitamin C is only, what, 60 milligrams? That's right -- at the same time there's plenty of dissention about whether that's enough, and in what circumstances. Dousing your bloodstream in anti-oxidants (C, E, polyphenols, etc) during following intense anaerobic activity is thought to help mop up free radicals that are a product of (amongst other things) heavy lactic acid production, e.g. sprinting, weights, i.e. any short duration high intensity bout. You can buy 1g megadose Vit C tablets at $chemist[rand @chemists] and I haven't read any contra- indications on them (may result in pissing shards or somesuch). Paul -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ If we can't draw, then or, just stick to the tried and true - the missionary position. -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Paul Makepeace wrote: Je 2003-09-02 18:01:12 +0100, Ben skribis: I mean, the RDA for vitamin C is only, what, 60 milligrams? That's right -- at the same time there's plenty of dissention about whether that's enough, and in what circumstances. Dousing your bloodstream in anti-oxidants (C, E, polyphenols, etc) during following intense anaerobic activity is thought to help mop up free radicals that are a product of (amongst other things) heavy lactic acid production, e.g. sprinting, weights, i.e. any short duration high intensity bout. You can buy 1g megadose Vit C tablets at $chemist[rand @chemists] and I haven't read any contra- indications on them (may result in pissing shards or somesuch). There's got to be a difference between ingestion (where most of it probably would pass straight through your digestive tract) and directly injecting it into your bloodstream. 10 grams of vit c intravenously sounds utterly barking to me. Surely a typo, or mis-hear or something. Jasper
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 06:19:05PM +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote: Je 2003-09-02 18:01:12 +0100, Ben skribis: I mean, the RDA for vitamin C is only, what, 60 milligrams? Right. That's the amount determined to stave off scurvy[1]. The RDA doesn't say anything about if you should have more, or the benefits of having more vitamin C in your diet. Linus Pauling had some pretty strong opinions on this -- grams per day IIRC. You can buy 1g megadose Vit C tablets at $chemist[rand @chemists] and I haven't read any contra- indications on them (may result in pissing shards or somesuch). Actually, contraindications with large (oral?) doses of vitamin C involve something called bowel tolerance. Don't know where pissing shards is on the spectrum. :-) Z. [1] Yes, scurvy is still around. Mostly with frat boys who subsist on beer, soda, white bread, hot dogs, chips and burgers.
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Adam Turoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *Actually, contraindications with large (oral?) doses of vitamin C involve *something called bowel tolerance. Don't know where pissing shards is *on the spectrum. :-) Well, Vitamin C does make a reliable abortifacient for women who are very early in their pregnancy since it blocks the uptake of progesterone. It's usually taken orally in very high doses and often combined with other herbal substances to help the process when it's a desired effect. Many products high in Ascorbic Acid are marked with a warning for pregnant women for this reason. e.
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Well, Vitamin C does make a reliable abortifacient for women who are very early in their pregnancy since it blocks the uptake of progesterone. It's usually taken orally in very high doses and often combined with other herbal substances to help the process when it's a desired effect. Such as Pennyroyal Tea (which makes interpreting the Nirvana song of the same name easier...), but, it seems this is *STRONGLY* discouraged... http://www.w-cpc.org/abortion/herbal.html +Pete
Re: Mercury Amalgam (was: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:30, Adam Turoff wrote; Right. That's the amount determined to stave off scurvy[1]. The RDA doesn't say anything about if you should have more, or the benefits of having more vitamin C in your diet. Linus Pauling had some pretty strong opinions on this -- grams per day IIRC. You're much better off just eating more fruit and vegetables though. Get lots of Vit. C and other antioxidants at the same time. No sense in overdosing on just one. -- Sam Vilain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. OSCAR WILDE
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On 29 Aug 2003 at 22:29, Piers Cawley wrote: Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aah, but what programming language would be best for them to use on such a project? Befunge. Or Brainfuck. Maybe INTERCAL. Malbolge. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tony Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *You only have to be able to produce your driving license when asked, and *you have up to 7 days to do so. You don't have to be carrying it. Well, I suspect something similar would happen with an ID card. How would they know who to arrest if nobody turned up with the ID card within seven days?
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Piers Cawley wrote: How would they know who to arrest if nobody turned up with the ID card within seven days? Implementation detail. Do you think that the marketroids that work for the government are any better, on the average, than the others ? Oh, and ID cards should be soft pink, too. More pleasant to the customers' eyes : so they'll accept them with more facility.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tony Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *You only have to be able to produce your driving license when asked, and *you have up to 7 days to do so. You don't have to be carrying it. Well, I suspect something similar would happen with an ID card. How would they know who to arrest if nobody turned up with the ID card within seven days? Surely they'd just put up wanted posters, just like the wild west? -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Piers Cawley wrote: *You only have to be able to produce your driving license when asked, and *you have up to 7 days to do so. You don't have to be carrying it. Well, I suspect something similar would happen with an ID card. How would they know who to arrest if nobody turned up with the ID card within seven days? Given that the proposals call for biometric data to be stored on the card and in the system I assume that once cards are compulsory (probably even before then) the police will have powers to take a biometric sample from anyone they stop as a matter of course. Then they'd just look up the matching record(s) and thus know who to arrest for not showing up. Organised criminals would just forge ID cards as necessary and always carry them thus satisfying the cursory checks likely to be carried out in any situation where the person stopped is not arrested on the spot. Jason Clifford -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ ADSL Broadband available now
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On 1 Sep 2003 at 9:56, Rafael Garcia-Suarez wrote: Philip Newton wrote: On 29 Aug 2003 at 22:29, Piers Cawley wrote: Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aah, but what programming language would be best for them to use on such a project? Befunge. Or Brainfuck. Maybe INTERCAL. Malbolge. The obligatory dantesque reference ? No, the obligatory language that's very easy to program in, hence suited for large projects. http://www.google.com/search?q=malbolgebtnI=I%27m+Feeling+Lucky Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Tim Sweetman wrote: Piers Cawley wrote: Befunge. Or Brainfuck. Maybe INTERCAL. It appears to be a natural law that london.pm discussions evolve until they are discussing Befunge or Brainfuck, then disintegrate. Befunge and Brainfuck: the Nazis of the Computing World Maybe we ought to have a programming language called Hitler just for the purpose. Indeed the the module Acme::Hitler would be ideal for bringing the endless bleating on clpm about why people recommend using modules to a timely end. /J\
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *How would they know who to arrest if nobody turned up with the ID *card within seven days? Well, the car has a vin and registration. I'm sure that taking the car in lieu of identification would likely produce a license. Not if they stop you walking down the street.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *bah, call them guns - you want to try Northern Ireland you do, *where in the its hay day, the RUC carried sub machine guns and *were generally escorted by army with fully automatic rifles and *a penchant for tracking you in the scopes despite what the regs *might have said, It's not the size that counts :) e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Piers Cawley wrote: Cop with gun: Show me your ID, sir! Me: I'm terribly sorry, I don't have my wallet about my person. CwG: Okay, what's you're name and address? Me: Albert Urquhart of 72, Regent Square, Doncaster. CwG: Postcode? Me: Um... I've just moved in, terribly sorry I can't remember it. CwG: Right, you have seven days to produce your ID card at any police station -- here's the appropriate bit of paper to bring along with it. Me: Right ho. Have a nice day. If they require my DNA they are going to have to arrest me to get it. Refusing to provide it will probably be made an offence and you could then find yourself sharing a cell with Big Ron. Jason Clifford -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ ADSL Broadband available now UKPOST.COM get your @ukpost.com address now... http://www.ukpost.com/ professional hosting/ADSL Broadband
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *CwG: Right, you have seven days to produce your ID card at any police *station -- here's the appropriate bit of paper to bring along with it. *Me: Right ho. Have a nice day. I don't know that you could get away with that in the US as they'd track down the owner of the car after 7 days and you'd be in a lot more trouble than if you'd have just been honest. Also, most places do issue a fine which, if you can be bothered to go to court, you can usually have waived for the first offense. If you walk off from the car without responding to them at all, depending on if you get Barney Fife or not, you'd likely get some sort of hostile reaction. Of course, if you get pulled over by troopers who radio your dad instead of giving you a ticket, you start to wish for the blessed anonymity of a plastic ID. *If they require my DNA they are going to have to arrest me to get *it. They're already requiring biometrics which may include DNA for your passport so you may have to face this at some point. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Jason Clifford wrote: On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Piers Cawley wrote: [ converses politely with mr policeman ] If they require my DNA they are going to have to arrest me to get it. Refusing to provide it will probably be made an offence and you could then find yourself sharing a cell with Big Ron. I heard they were telling Big Ron to behave, and threatening that if he didn't, he might end up in a cell with piers. the hatter
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:17, Chris Benson wrote; CB Talk of adding bad (for TB) oils to TB treatments and CB recommending people doing the cure *not* to eat oily-fish etc. Heh, it's fish oil not snake oil - it doesn't cure everything. I've forwarded the mention of this to the author of the book, see what he's got to say. -- Sam Vilain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Grand Master Turing once dreamed that he was a machine. When he awoke he exclaimed: I don't know whether I am Turing dreaming that I am a machine, or a machine dreaming that I am Turing!
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 11:02:39AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: *There is a big difference between a compulsory ID card and the usual *stuff you carry in your pockets which is voluntary. You're required to carry a drivers license when driving and could be fined and/or jailed if you don't. Not in the UK. Or at least not in NI, and I don't believe it to be different in the rest of the UK. You only have to be able to produce your driving license when asked, and you have up to 7 days to do so. You don't have to be carrying it. Tony
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Tony Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *You only have to be able to produce your driving license when asked, and *you have up to 7 days to do so. You don't have to be carrying it. Well, I suspect something similar would happen with an ID card. However, that's not the point. The data is already there. Every time a business buys another business the data accretes. It's either going to be the government or it's going to be the retail conglomerates. At least with a 'democratic' government you have some shred of a hope of a doubt that there will be some benevolence. The card is absolutely that last affect of what has been happening, something we have all participated in one way or another, for the past 30+ years. The card isn't and shouldn't be the issue. Who keeps the data and how they access it should. Information may want to be free but it also wants to accumulate. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * * Indeed, I feel the same, but it's only a matter of time before it comes. * *Only if enough people take that attitude. Well, I suppose I'd rather worry about the data they've been collecting and shoving into databases all these years than only now start refusing to carry a card that is only a bit of inert plastic. I mean, what, you thought we'd all use databases and such and somehow never have to submit to having all that data we each generate daily hooked in to a central db somewhere? You know, my parents had a similar reaction when ATMs were first introduced and swore them off because of the cards and the bank tracking you, etc. The bankers were too busy cooking the books to worry about the ATMs or my parents. I prefer to think of it as healthy cynicism, not an attitude. Besides, judging by how the US and the UK seem to be well behind in getting things online, it likely won't happen in our lifetimes. Hell, the US Embassy here in .fi can't even manage to make a decent PDF form or send out an email without exposing the entire list of recipients. The retailers, however, are on the ball. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:39, Nicholas Clark wrote; NC Like Soylent Green? :) NC Imagine the heath warnings that would have to carry, if it were NC made in the US. NC (My immediate thought was the fat per 100g, based on my NC impression of US obesity statistics, but it occurs to me that NC may cause altzheimers or CJD would be the more worrying NC problem.) Interestingly, Alzheimer's is a condition which is easily reversable by a well managed dietry programme and lots of fish (or fish oil). It is almost certainly caused BY government dietary recommendations. They need that warning label on their food pyramid. Recent medical breakthroughs are revealing that a lot of modern conditions are due to overloading on carbohydrates and a lack of intake of fish - or, rather, the long chain omega 3 fatty acids EPA and DHA. The situation if you follow the government dietary recommendations and eat 6-8 servings of carbohydrates a day is that your insulin system goes bananas, which sets off a whole chain of events too complex for me to grasp fully let alone reproduce here, and ends up with every single cell in your body not functioning correctly (apparently ending in the inhibition of cyclic AMP production). I never studied biology, but I got a lot of this from reading what from the cover looks to be one of those Fad Diet books. Except unlike most of those books, about 20% of the book is the bibliography. For a few of the conditions he's claimed to be able to fix, I've done a little poking around on various web sites (especially PubMed) and his claims seem to correlate with real research. I'm not going to say what book it was, because I don't want any of you to attach previous associations you might have with other diets that promise similar things (eg, the Atkin's diet ... heh, Dr. Atkins died recently of heart disease, bless his cotton socks). So I'll just grossly oversimplify his suggestions with Less bread, more fruit and greens, and eat lots of fish or cod liver oil :-). Don't cut fat out either, unless it's saturated fat (eg, animal fat) - you need it. Olive oil is best. His Soylent Green would have 40% calories from complex carbohydrates and fructose, 30% from protein and 30% from fat, and give 2.5g of long-chain Omega 3 proteins per day. A couple of relevant studies for from PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12432919dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12065621dopt=Abstract -- Sam Vilain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If everything would be permitted to me, I would feel lost in the abyss of freedom IGOR STRAVINSKY
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
* at 28/08 18:26 +0200 Robin Berjon said: Nicholas Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 05:39:49PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? Not sure. We seem to manage without. I didn't say you didn't manage, just that I thought that that was what Elaine was saying, and that it certainly helps. It also helps pull up your medical history from file if you're not dead but uncounscious or otherwise unable to communicate the fact that you may need special treatment for some reason. It's not actually relevant as people's medical records aren't held in a centralised way (as far as i know) so even if they do know who you are they then need to find out who your registered doctor is in order to get your medical records. I believe they've tried to computerise it but it all went terribly wrong so they gave up. s
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
* at 28/08 19:40 +0200 Ronan Oger (roasp) said: But how much are we *already* measured, controlled, and modelled, with and without our consent? Databas NAtion by Garfinkel (spl?) has a lot to say about this. with consent: air miles card purchases track spending habits in order to sell the individual behaviour to all-too-willing purchasers. But an air miles card is something I _choose_ to have. without: POS transactions (EC card in Europe, Interac in Canada) are tracked and cross-referenced to each other to generate spending-profile patterms. POS-transaction houses (my wife once worked for one) make the bulk of their money cross-referencing card-based spending patterns with air miles cards and CC cards, generating comprehensive behaviour models for individuals. We didn't really pay attention, but we gave consent to have this happen when we signed up to POS. There are limits in the EU about this, but you have to *know* it is happening in order to complain... While this is true I don't have to use POS. We still have the option of paying with real money so if you're bothered you can avoid the tracking. Plus, just because private companies are trying to track our every move doesn't provide justification for the government to attempt to do so, especially as the government has access to so much more information about us in the first place. ID cards are a _very_ seperate issue from the data mining of the private sector. Struan
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 08:37:56PM +0100, Sam Vilain wrote: On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:29, Chris Benson wrote; CB I thought it already was ... thinks: prison statistics/ I thought that the US prison statistics were because of the War on Drugs. Perhaps I mean sentencing statistics: - if you're poor you're X% more likely to be imprisoned for a particular offence, - if you're black you're Y% more likely to be imprisoned for a particular offence, I can't remember X and Y, but ISTR that X*Y is 10x more likely. -- Chris Benson
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
(this is in reply to several different messages in the same thread; this isn't intended to be confusing, but may be ...) On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 03:01:14PM +, Dominic Mitchell wrote: My body will be identified by my PGP key which is tattooed into my groin. ;-) 1. does your PGP key have an expiry date? 2. what will you do if you forget your passphrase? 3. or if your private key is compromised? 4. anyway, what's to stop anybody else having the same tattoo? i'm sure legitimate tattooists would refuse to do the tattoo unless you first prove that you control the corresponding private key, but what about rogue tattooists (in N. Korea)? um, getting back to ID cards ... though i would oppose a compulsory ID card even if it were just a piece of cardboard with name, address and photo (the police would use it to hassle people; no clear advantages), i'm much more strongly opposed a card with biometrics and a wide variety of data, because that would help to turn the country/world into a giant Panopticon, in which our every move is surveilled. which would enable a future government (bearing no resemblance to the present government) to do all kinds of evil things. and enable government agencies and corporations to get all kinds of information they shouldn't have, even while staying within the present (weak and unenforced) data protection law. as several people have said, the (present) government would doubtless do the IT very badly; which i'd say is a mixed blessing. it lessens the damage that a future evil government might do: they would be that much further from total control. but it would increase abuses by people prepared to break the rules a little, as well as by more professional criminals. ID cards aren't essential for constructing the Panopticon (TMTOWTDI); the only essentials are gathering yet more data and making it possible to link different databases together (by converting the remaining paper records to electronic form, establishing common IDs, etc.). several people have pointed out how credit card/POS/air mile data is already being (ab)used. i doubt if these are a bigger problem than a universal electronic ID card would be; but even if they are, that's no reason to accept the ID card! it's well worth publicizing information about these existing abuses - and pointing out that an electronic ID card would lead to more of the same. On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 12:54:23PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: Given the political weight there seems to be behind that, the appearance of universal ID cards in the UK may be inevitable. I think that what a group like london.pm can say is we understand it may happen anyway, but we see solid issues with this, that, and that. Making it sound constructive and helpful will imho be ten times more efficient than a frontal just-say-no attack filled to the brim with fear-mongering, irrespective of whether or not the refusal and the fear are well-motivated. i don't think it's inevitable: the Home Office seems to have made up its mind (in favour), but public opposition is quite strong, and the government has been weakened recently (Kenny did not die in vain). this government's style is to attack and ridicule any opposition, so i think confrontation with them is unavoidable; and confrontation can be effective even if not wholly successful (they went ahead in qarI, but may not try it in narI). i do agree that it's important to bring up the whole range of problems with ID cards; the biggest negative factor for most people ATM is probably either the cost or outrage at the idea of being required to show a card on demand (and i don't think these are bad reasons), but there are other important issues (some have been brought up in this thread) that should be given a wider airing. You mention sharing between countries (this in fact is already the case for much of the criminal data), but more worryingly companies. Is there a UK equivalent to the French CNIL[0]? It's a state agency, but only very rarely has it shown any complacency with violations to its rules, whether or not the state was involved. Those are the sort of people that should be gotten into the picture. If there is no equivalent, asking that something of the sort be created, with a clear charter on the protection of indiidual rights and with full power to investigate and counter government proposals going against it, would not only be a good idea but would come accross as a positive proposal. the nearest equivalent here is probably the Information Commissioner[1]. this is 1 person appointed by the government (and i think can be removed by the government, though that could be embarrassing for them); the commissioner is mainly supposed to oversee existing legislation, rather than propose changes in the law; i say oversee, not enforce, because not enough money is made available to take many people to court. there are some other commissioners covering different areas of the law; i
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 10:13:38PM +, the hatter wrote: I'm fairly sure the UK has a law like that, if not, then it did, and it might have been repealled. the nearest i can think of is the law criminalizing begging, which has not been repealed. i have a vague idea that when it was introduced, it was aimed at Irish ex-soldiers from the Napoleonic Wars (do you call them the Napoleonic Wars in France?), which could even be true, because i think i didn't get it from the internet. -- Phil Lanch0xD78D598DA6635CF32AB24593C98994B7D95B33E3 Give a man a fish; he'll be surprised. Teach him how to fish; he'll be slightly afraid. Use him as bait; he'll cack his pants. -- The League Against Tedium
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
the hatter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unusually, for someone without a full license, I have a photocard, and I carry it most times, as a photo ID. It'll be interesting to see if I can use it as ID in the US, instead of my passport, though I won't be near much civilisation, so probably won't get IDd anyway. I'm going to have to correlate those two statements and conclude that you don't consider the US to be civilisation. ;-) -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 05:38:23PM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: 2. The governments ability to deliver large scale IT projects is almost zero. Time after time major projects have failed and this will be the largest IT project undertaken by central government. It is almost certain to fail too, wasting tens or hundreds of millions of pounds of our money. On a conceptual level I have no particular problem with carrying an id card. Do I trust the government to get it right and to protect my data ? Not a bloody chance ! Aah, but what programming language would be best for them to use on such a project? Oh, Ada, I'm sure. A language that doesn't have everything is actually easier to program in than some that do. -- Dennis M. Ritchie -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Quoting Sam Vilain ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Interestingly, Alzheimer's is a condition which is easily reversable by a well managed dietry programme and lots of fish (or fish oil). It is almost certainly caused BY government dietary recommendations. I highly doubt this. Seems a giant over simplification. promise similar things (eg, the Atkin's diet ... heh, Dr. Atkins died recently of heart disease, bless his cotton socks). Not true. He slipped and fell on an icy pavement. Cheers, -- Merijn Broeren | Sometime in the middle ages, God got fed up with us Software Geek | and put earth at sol.milky-way.univ in his kill-file. | Pray all you want, it just gets junked.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Je 2003-08-29 00:59:55 +0100, Sam Vilain skribis: eat 6-8 servings of carbohydrates a day is that your insulin system goes bananas, Heh. promise similar things (eg, the Atkin's diet ... heh, Dr. Atkins died recently of heart disease, bless his cotton socks). He in fact died while in a coma following slipping on ice earlier this year: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2957343.stm The more I read about lipid and carb metabolism the more I'm coming around to idea that diets high in trashy carbs (white bread, pasta, sugar, fructose, etc.) are more responsible for the increasingly fat obese populations of the UK US. There's More Than One Type of Fat, too. As you say, essential fatty acids are quite a different beast from transfats, etc (e.g. in margarine - why do people even consider eating this shit? Ignorance? Don't care about themselves? Laziness? Habit?) Sigh, Darwin... P -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ What is jack? Makes a mess. -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Margarine (was Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
On 29 Aug 2003 at 10:56, Paul Makepeace wrote: margarine - why do people even consider eating this shit? Ignorance? Don't care about themselves? Laziness? Habit? My theory: no taste buds. Margarine icky, butter much better. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Margarine (was Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29 Aug 2003 at 10:56, Paul Makepeace wrote: margarine - why do people even consider eating this shit? Ignorance? Don't care about themselves? Laziness? Habit? My theory: no taste buds. Margarine icky, butter much better. Ah, but only salted butter. Unsalted butter is the vile spawn of satan. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
RE: Margarine (was Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises)
Dom wrote: Ah, but only salted butter. Unsalted butter is the vile spawn of satan. Unless you are making chocolate truffles or cakes in which case un-salted butter rules. Adrian ** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 11:14:18PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
If you need special treatment it would seem reasonable to carry
something stating so, and it doesn't need to identify you if you don't
want to. For example, I believe many diabetics wear a bracelet with
some weird symbol on it so that medics know not to give them a chocolate
drip.
Sounds like MedicAlert. My mum has one for an intolerance.
http://www.medicalert.org.uk/how.htm
--
# Earle Martin http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EarleMartin
$a=f695a9a2176a7dd1618af6649896ee10f05ea986de18af6277e9a1d8ef4696644569a1d.
8ef46961ae1e64277e9896eea7d92ea8003e9a1d8ef4696f6950;$b=8ALB6AIA4.BA2;$c=
join,unpackC*,$b;$c=~s/7/2/g;@b=split,$c;foreach$d(@b){$e=hex(substr($a
,$f,$d));while(length($e)8){substr($e,0,0)=0;}print packb8,$e;$f+=$d;}
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Je 2003-08-29 12:16:19 +0100, Earle Martin skribis: Sounds like MedicAlert. My mum has one for an intolerance. thought type=market op Medic bracelets for No PHP/emacs/vi/HTML/etc? / Global reduction in geek blood pressure would follow swiftly... Paul -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ What is a chicken? Can be found gently festering in a corner. -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
RE: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Title: RE: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Merijn Broeren
Quoting Sam Vilain ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
Interestingly, Alzheimer's is a condition which is easily reversable
by a well managed dietry programme and lots of fish (or fish oil). It
is almost certainly caused BY government dietary recommendations.
I highly doubt this. Seems a giant over simplification.
IIRC, research at the University of Calgary has recently demonstrated
that the brain changes associated with Alzheimer's are directly
attributable to Mercury poisoning. Of course, that's largely in your
head[1], as the standard 'silver' fillings are comprised of just over
50% mercury. Not to mention its use in anti-fungals, pesticides,
etc., and the high levels typically found in sea food.
My s.o. has been ill for years with extreme pain, fatigue, and brain
troubles. She's starting to recover after having had her fillings
exchanged for composite ones last year. Without doing much in the
way of detox, some of her symptoms have almost completely gone, and
the rest about half better.
Philip
[1] Books about Mercury Toxicity
It's All in your Head by Hal Huggins (http://www.hugnet.com/)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895295504/026-7813470-5213223
Menace in the Mouth by Jack Levenson
http://www.oceansofgoodness.com/uk/pages/products/menaceinmouth.htm
List of mercury-free UK dentists
http://www.amalgam.ukgo.com/ukdent.htm
This communication together with any attachments transmitted with it ("this E-Mail") is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information which is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this E-Mail is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this E-Mail is strictly prohibited. Addressees should check this E-mail for viruses. The Company makes no representations as regards the absence of viruses in this E-Mail. If you have received this E-Mail in error please notify our ISe Response Team immediately by telephone on +44 (0)20 8896 5828 or via e-mail at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please then immediately delete, erase or otherwise destroy this E-Mail and any copies of it.
Any opinions expressed in this E-Mail are those of the author and do not necessarily constitute the views of the Company. Nothing in this E-Mail shall bind the Company in any contract or obligation.
For the purposes of this E-Mail "the Company" means The Carphone Warehouse Group Plc and/or any of its subsidiaries.
Please feel free to visit our website: http://www.phonehouse.com
The Carphone Warehouse Group Plc (Registered in England No. 3253714) North Acton Business Park, Wales Farm Road, London W3 6RS
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
David Landgren wrote: ghandiI think it would be a nice idea./ghandi Although the scope of Ghandi's quote is much broader than the sole North-American civilisation. -- Their syphilisation, you mean, says the citizen. -- J. Joyce, Ulysses
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:24, HellyerP wrote; He IIRC, research at the University of Calgary has recently He demonstrated that the brain changes associated with Alzheimer's He are directly attributable to Mercury poisoning. Of course, He that's largely in your head[1], as the standard 'silver' He fillings are comprised of just over 50% mercury. Not to mention He its use in anti-fungals, pesticides, etc., and the high levels He typically found in sea food. He does mention mercury and PCB contamination as one potential drawback with using average fish oil. That research is interesting, though I wonder if they are showing correlation or causitive effect. If Alzheimer's is a condition caused by brain degeneration, presumably there are several ways that this can happen. It is possible to get fish oil which has had these contaminants removed... perhaps this is more important than I thought. In his book he details several cases of literally reversing patients with alzheimer's disease back to full memory capacity personality in months using an Insulin regulating diet and (clean) concentrated fish oil. If you're interested, I'll send you a link to the book, it's a good read. He My s.o. has been ill for years with extreme pain, fatigue, and He brain troubles. She's starting to recover after having had her He fillings exchanged for composite ones last year. Without doing He much in the way of detox, some of her symptoms have almost He completely gone, and the rest about half better. /me considers getting all his amalgam fillings changed to composite... -- Sam Vilain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] A seeming ignorance is often a most necessary part of worldly knowledge. - anon.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Je 2003-08-29 14:24:20 +0100, Sam Vilain skribis: It is possible to get fish oil which has had these contaminants removed... A dense source of EFAs is flaxseed oil. It's not particularly easy to get hold of in the UK (easier in the US, IME). Organic/hippie shops sell it, e.g. http://www.econat.co.uk/ [1] in Walthamstow. ghandiWherever flaxseed becomes a regular food item among the people, there will be better health./ghandi /me considers getting all his amalgam fillings changed to composite... The danger is vaporizing the mercury as the drill goes in - which makes it several orders of magnitude easier to penetrate gum cell walls. You can end up getting dosed more in those few minutes than what would naturally seep out via saliva tooth over its remaining life. Paul [1] This site could precipitate seizures in some London.pm'ers. -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ What is metaphysics? Planck's constant. -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Sam Vilain wrote: He My s.o. has been ill for years with extreme pain, fatigue, and He brain troubles. She's starting to recover after having had her He fillings exchanged for composite ones last year. Without doing He much in the way of detox, some of her symptoms have almost He completely gone, and the rest about half better. /me considers getting all his amalgam fillings changed to composite... Everything I've seen on that issue indicates that it's a danger only for those who have an allergic reaction to the mercury traces. That said I am not confident that sufficient (any?) real research has been carried out on the long term effects. It's not possible to composite for all filings either which is a problem for those of us who have needed root canal filing work. Jason Clifford -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ ADSL Broadband available now
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nicholas Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:48:56AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your Someone calls and ambulance, and no-one at the hospital worries whether you have health insurance, because it's free at the point of delivery. I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? Why should he care? He's dead.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 05:38:23PM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: 2. The governments ability to deliver large scale IT projects is almost zero. Time after time major projects have failed and this will be the largest IT project undertaken by central government. It is almost certain to fail too, wasting tens or hundreds of millions of pounds of our money. On a conceptual level I have no particular problem with carrying an id card. Do I trust the government to get it right and to protect my data ? Not a bloody chance ! Aah, but what programming language would be best for them to use on such a project? Befunge. Or Brainfuck. Maybe INTERCAL.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *On a conceptual level I have no particular problem with carrying an id *card. Do I trust the government to get it right and to protect my data ? *Not a bloody chance ! Indeed, I feel the same, but it's only a matter of time before it comes. Only if enough people take that attitude.
insidious biometrics, identity crises
in the news i read today: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1029974,00.html [[ ID cards to be tested in 'a small market town' ]] http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/n_story.asp?item_id=583 [[ BIOMETRIC TECHNOLOGY TO TACKLE IMMIGRATION ABUSE ]] this stuff is sneaking up on us, and i'm reluctant to wait until it becomes a social-technological crisis before preparing counterarguments. as one of those like-minded people who were positively encouraged to reply to the government's 'consultation' process by stand.org.uk[0], the underlying theme here is pretty clear: universal ID cards, encoding biometric data, introduced under the rational pretense of 'immigration control', with the backend databases shared between those countries and companies that can afford access. there are reams of good technical reasons - identity, security, single point of failure, obsolescence, etc - why this shouldn't be implemented - let alone social / ideological reasons. it would be good to have a cogent list of 'bullet points' to offer. as an individual, i can write to my MP or to the broadsheets registering dissent, distaste - but this kind of counterargument will sound a lot better, read a lot better in the letters page of the grauniad and the times, coming from a pre-existing, disinterested group of technical professionals, such as, london.pm is this a crackfuelled suggestion, and is it something with which the majority of the 'group' would concur? [0] http://danhon.com/ec/mtarchives/000552.shtml - provides a pretty good summary of 'the story so far', as it stood in july zx -- Common sense won't tell you. We have to tell each other. -DNA
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Jo Walsh wrote: this stuff is sneaking up on us, and i'm reluctant to wait until it becomes a social-technological crisis before preparing counterarguments. I agree with all the campaigns against the introduction of these cards, and support them. However, I also believe that changes to technology are inevitable. What we have to fight against are the changes to mentality (similar to those across the pond?) that cause these things to be used in particular ways. If a new technology does become inevitable, and this is also my policy with, say, .net, then wait until it would be very, very expensive to replace/fix/update before breaking it. Then break it. Then wait again. Then break it. While it's kind of funny to break, say, WPA before the official release, that's exactly what the company want. Break it much later when there's a plethora of vulnerable versions around. I think the virus writers have this down to a tee. I think that the only way to comprehensively defeat the use of these technologies is to comprehensively break the technologies themselves. I'm fairly happy with having a known breakable technology around. It would be like credit cards, with the legal protection as a primary backup mechanism to prevent fraud. Randomness. S. -- Shevekhttp://www.anarres.org/ I am the Borg. http://www.gothnicity.org/
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Jo Walsh wrote: this stuff is sneaking up on us, and i'm reluctant to wait until it becomes a social-technological crisis before preparing counterarguments. as one of those like-minded people who were positively encouraged to reply to the government's 'consultation' process by stand.org.uk[0], the underlying theme here is pretty clear: universal ID cards, encoding biometric data, introduced under the rational pretense of 'immigration control', with the backend databases shared between those countries and companies that can afford access. there are reams of good technical reasons - identity, security, single point of failure, obsolescence, etc - why this shouldn't be implemented - let alone social / ideological reasons. it would be good to have a cogent list of 'bullet points' to offer. as an individual, i can write to my MP or to the broadsheets registering dissent, distaste - but this kind of counterargument will sound a lot better, read a lot better in the letters page of the grauniad and the times, coming from a pre-existing, disinterested group of technical professionals, such as, london.pm As a Frog, I probably have a slightly different take on this. We've had compulsory ID cards forever (well, for much longer than my lifetime) and are accustomed to them. Somewhere between 93-95, a thumbprint was added to them. That's biometrics, but well, pretty shallow as biometrics go. So I'm no opposed in se to the existence of such cards, but having done a (tiny little) homework on what's happening around this in the UK, I understand your concerns. Given the political weight there seems to be behind that, the appearance of universal ID cards in the UK may be inevitable. I think that what a group like london.pm can say is we understand it may happen anyway, but we see solid issues with this, that, and that. Making it sound constructive and helpful will imho be ten times more efficient than a frontal just-say-no attack filled to the brim with fear-mongering, irrespective of whether or not the refusal and the fear are well-motivated. You mention sharing between countries (this in fact is already the case for much of the criminal data), but more worryingly companies. Is there a UK equivalent to the French CNIL[0]? It's a state agency, but only very rarely has it shown any complacency with violations to its rules, whether or not the state was involved. Those are the sort of people that should be gotten into the picture. If there is no equivalent, asking that something of the sort be created, with a clear charter on the protection of indiidual rights and with full power to investigate and counter government proposals going against it, would not only be a good idea but would come accross as a positive proposal. I know this would only address the UK, but it can only be done one country at a time. And practices done in one country often influence what is done in others. I'd certainly support action in this area, and would be happy to help review drafts, etc. of a letter or such things. [0]http://www.cnil.fr/uk/index.htm -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 12:50:32AM +0100, Jo Walsh wrote: there are reams of good technical reasons - identity, security, single point of failure, obsolescence, etc - why this shouldn't be implemented - let alone social / ideological reasons. it would be good to have a Zool, you've missed the *absolutely* vital one. Cost. The ID card scheme was going to cost 40 quid a head for the card. I do agree with all the other reasons why not (see also ukcrypto passim). Shevek's point about breaking it once the infrastructure in place is all very well, but it is our taxes that will have been spent, and then the extra cost which is presumably going to be levied, and therefore our taxes that will be wasted. As has been mentioned elsewhere, it's not so much the technology as the use of it, and the acceptance of use. This world is very rapidly becoming a really unpleasant place in which to live. Welcome to the Global Police State, please have your papers at the ready at all times. -- Lusercop.net - LARTing Lusers everywhere since 2002
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Lusercop wrote: This world is very rapidly becoming a really unpleasant place in which to live. I disagree. The world is a wonderful and beautiful place to live. Some of the people who live it in are unpleasant, but they are the tiny minority. Alas they also tend to have most of the power (which is why they are so unpleasant), but it doesn't mean we're all like that. Welcome to the Global Police State, please have your papers at the ready at all times. I've got a new credit card waiting to be signed. This escapade here: http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/ is making me wonder what I should sign it with. Presumably there's nothing to stop me from signing it Tony Blair is a Goat or I stole this card, as long as I then remember to sign the same signature each time I used it. And I suppose there's nothing to stop me from having a second credit card that I sign Cherie Blair Blows Goats or even I stole this card too. That would be quite amusing for those times when a shop assistant asks me for another card to verify my signature. Ho ho ho. A
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Lusercop wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 12:50:32AM +0100, Jo Walsh wrote: there are reams of good technical reasons - identity, security, single point of failure, obsolescence, etc - why this shouldn't be implemented - let alone social / ideological reasons. it would be good to have a Zool, you've missed the *absolutely* vital one. Cost. The ID card scheme was going to cost 40 quid a head for the card. I do agree with all the other reasons why not (see also ukcrypto passim). Shevek's point about breaking it once the infrastructure in place is all very well, but it is our taxes that will have been spent, and then the extra cost which is presumably going to be levied, and therefore our taxes that will be wasted. I don't think the cost is that an important argument against identity cards and it's the sort of issue where the government will claim with dodgy Excel spreadsheets that money will be saved due to decreased crime anyway (apart from the sort of crime associated with identity card fraud of course!). The key point isn't technological or economic but political, whether you should be legally forced to carry an state issued identity card when you walk down the street to your local shops (as I believe is common in continental Europe). Sorry mate I forgot my wallet the card's in that You have to produce the card down the station within a week otherwise you are in violation of the Defence of the Realm Act 2005 I see no reason why I should have to carry extra papers proving who I am in addition to the usual bank issued plastic etc in my pocket as I go about my business where I live. I have a passport at home anyway to prove who I am should I leave the country. And this talk of voluntary cards is just an attempt to sneak compulsory cards in by the backdoor as any voluntary scheme would be the thin edge of the wedge as it's quickly changed to compulsory as it's in the public interest to enhance its effectiveness in fighting crime. Historically ID cards where introduced in the last war and their use carried well into peacetime (1952) by which time they were extremely unpopular with people. It took the case of Willcock v. Muckle to get rid of them of them last time. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *As a Frog, I probably have a slightly different take on this. We've had *compulsory ID cards forever (well, for much longer than my lifetime) and *are accustomed to them. Somewhere between 93-95, a thumbprint was added to *them. That's biometrics, but well, pretty shallow as biometrics go. Likewise for Finland, although the 'smart' ids are just now coming along which will contain some biometric data I believe. Also, anyone with a passport in the EU will find that they'll be required to submit to biometric data for their passport lest they be forced to apply for a visa with a complementary anal probe every time they wish to enter the US for any reason. Finland also is rather rabid about checking IDs when using any form of credit or bank card, something which has impressed me tremendously since it was /exceedingly/ rare in the US or the UK. I don't have any statistics, but I would guess that such kinds of fraud are pretty unusual here because of that. *So I'm no opposed in se to the existence of such cards, but having done a *(tiny little) homework on what's happening around this in the UK, I *understand your concerns. Indeed, but 1984 came right on time though only now are people really catching on that Orwell was truly prescient. It's far, far too late to stop this sort of thing and it's better to worry about or assist in the implementation of the data storage. Besides, now that giant chunks of the Baltic are devoid of oxygen and life which subsequently gives off more SO2 than all the sewage St. Petersburg could produce, you might get the idea that the oceans are dying and, well, when that happens national IDs will be pretty low on the list of concerns. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Robin Berjon wrote: As a Frog, I probably have a slightly different take on this. We've had compulsory ID cards forever (well, for much longer than my lifetime) and are accustomed to them. Somewhere between 93-95, a thumbprint was added to them. That's biometrics, but well, pretty shallow as biometrics go. The government claims that an entitlement/identity card will cut down on benefit fraud. This is one of their biggest selling points. It would be interesting to compare the level of benefit fraud between countries with and without id cards. For instance, does France suffer a significantly lower instance of benefit fraud than the UK and if so, is this solely attributable to the existence of ID cards or are there other procedural explanations ? Anyone able to point to research in this area ? Simon. -- Counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Likewise for Finland, although the 'smart' ids are just now coming along which will contain some biometric data I believe. Also, anyone with a passport in the EU will find that they'll be required to submit to biometric data for their passport lest they be forced to apply for a visa with a complementary anal probe every time they wish to enter the US for any reason. Most UK passports are still sufficient being machine-readable (mine is and its three years old) and the biometric requirement is currently only for new passports issued after 2004. Good summary of the (current) situation at http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/mrp.htm October 2004 - Border security legislation requires that any person applying for admission into the United States under the Visa Waiver Program on or after October 26, 2004 be in possession of a biometric passport, unless the passport was issued prior to that date. Regulations implementing this legislation are currently under consideration and subject to change. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The key point isn't technological or economic but political, whether you should be legally forced to carry an state issued identity card when you walk down the street to your local shops (as I believe is common in continental Europe). Sorry mate I forgot my wallet the card's in that You have to produce the card down the station within a week otherwise you are in violation of the Defence of the Realm Act 2005 I see no reason why I should have to carry extra papers proving who I am in addition to the usual bank issued plastic etc in my pocket as I go about my business where I live. I have a passport at home anyway to prove who I am should I leave the country. What I find strange is that I get bizarre looks when I tell people that I never take my drivers license anywhere. I just don't see the point, it's much less likely to get lost at home. :-) -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
(resent due to mail server issues) Lusercop wrote: Zool, you've missed the *absolutely* vital one. Cost. The ID card scheme was going to cost 40 quid a head for the card. I do agree with all the other reasons why not (see also ukcrypto passim). Shevek's point about breaking it once the infrastructure in place is all very well, but it is our taxes that will have been spent, and then the extra cost which is presumably going to be levied, and therefore our taxes that will be wasted. I don't think the cost is that an important argument against identity cards and it's the sort of issue where the government will claim with dodgy Excel spreadsheets that money will be saved due to decreased crime anyway (apart from the sort of crime associated with identity card fraud of course!). The key point isn't technological or economic but political, whether you should be legally forced to carry an state issued identity card when you walk down the street to your local shops (as I believe is common in continental Europe). Sorry mate I forgot my wallet the card's in that You have to produce the card down the station within a week otherwise you are in violation of the Defence of the Realm Act 2005 I see no reason why I should have to carry extra papers proving who I am in addition to the usual bank issued plastic etc in my pocket as I go about my business where I live. I have a passport at home anyway to prove who I am should I leave the country. A licence to drive a car is reasonable. A licence to walk down the street isn't. And this talk of voluntary cards is just an attempt to sneak compulsory cards in by the backdoor as any voluntary scheme would be the thin edge of the wedge as it's quickly changed to compulsory as it's in the public interest to enhance its effectiveness in fighting crime. Historically ID cards where introduced in the last war and their use carried well into peacetime (1952) by which time they were extremely unpopular with people. It took the case of Willcock v. Muckle to get rid of them of them last time in the UK. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:01:35 + (UTC), Dominic Mitchell wrote: What I find strange is that I get bizarre looks when I tell people that I never take my drivers license anywhere. I just don't see the point, it's much less likely to get lost at home. :-) I managed to lose my driving license at home a few years ago, and it still hasn't turned up. Of course, I don't have a car, so this doesn't really bother me. Oh, and since I'm diabetic, I have to renew the license every three years, so it has expired anyway. But I still have to find it if I ever want to renew it. -- Peter Haworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Q: How long does it take a DEC field service engineer to change a lightbulb? A: It depends on how many bad ones he brought with him.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Steve Mynott wrote: Most UK passports are still sufficient being machine-readable (mine is and its three years old) and the biometric requirement is currently only for new passports issued after 2004. Indeed, the machine readable passports have been around for at least 10 years now (that's how long I've had one), the problem arises with passports issued to UK citizens abroad which, I'm told, do not have the machine readable strip on them in some cases. As for the biometrics, well I should be safe until around 2013 given the nice shiny new passport I got back in April. =) A. -- Adam Auden - UNIX Metal Geek whois bimble.net
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *Oh yeah, and if we survive that we'll roast to death. I do wonder how the *field of biometrics will survive the accrued mutation in the human species. Well, if you believe the talking heads everything will be saved by biotech and nanotech. Poor Jacques Cousteaupeople still don't believe. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I see no reason why I should have to carry extra papers proving who I am *in addition to the usual bank issued plastic etc in my pocket as I go *about my business where I live. I have a passport at home anyway to *prove who I am should I leave the country. A licence to drive a car is *reasonable. A licence to walk down the street isn't. There are plenty of similar laws in the US, such as the law in St. Louis where if you are found with less than $10 on your person, you can be fined and/or jailed for vagrancy. You don't carry any ID on you at times? What happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your body will be identified? Getting fussy over having to carry an ID card, much like your health card and your Tesco card and your bank card and your credit cards...work on a more credible argument :) e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: You don't carry any ID on you at times? What happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your body will be identified? His bank plastic probably. :)
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are plenty of similar laws in the US, such as the law in St. Louis where if you are found with less than $10 on your person, you can be fined and/or jailed for vagrancy. You don't carry any ID on you at times? What happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your body will be identified? My body will be identified by my PGP key which is tattooed into my groin. ;-) Getting fussy over having to carry an ID card, much like your health card and your Tesco card and your bank card and your credit cards...work on a more credible argument :) Well, I carry around none of the above for the vast majority of the time. I don't think I'm particularly weird. The only things I do carry around are my house keys and phone. I suppose the phone could be a form of id... -Dom P.S. Does this post screw the threading up less? -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:48:56AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your Someone calls and ambulance, and no-one at the hospital worries whether you have health insurance, because it's free at the point of delivery. It may not be very good, and it's not free (nothing is), and you may spend eternity on a trolley, but it doesn't suck completely for AE Nicholas Clark
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Nicholas Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:48:56AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your Someone calls and ambulance, and no-one at the hospital worries whether you have health insurance, because it's free at the point of delivery. I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and *die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? Perl people have friends and families?! :) e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 05:39:49PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: Nicholas Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:48:56AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your Someone calls and ambulance, and no-one at the hospital worries whether you have health insurance, because it's free at the point of delivery. I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? Not sure. We seem to manage without. France has ID cards - are the 300 unclaimed bodies in Paris (or whatever the figure now is) unidentified, or identified but unclaimed? Nicholas Clark
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I see no reason why I should have to carry extra papers proving who I am *in addition to the usual bank issued plastic etc in my pocket as I go *about my business where I live. I have a passport at home anyway to *prove who I am should I leave the country. A licence to drive a car is *reasonable. A licence to walk down the street isn't. There are plenty of similar laws in the US, such as the law in St. Louis where if you are found with less than $10 on your person, you can be fined and/or jailed for vagrancy. You don't carry any ID on you at times? What happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your body will be identified? I don't live in St. Louis but if I did I would be complaining about that law. One bad law in St. Louis doesn't justify introducing a bad law in the UK. And didn't I say in the paragraph you quoted I carry the usual bank issued plastic as ID? That's how my body would be identified. Getting fussy over having to carry an ID card, much like your health card and your Tesco card and your bank card and your credit cards...work on a more credible argument :) There is a big difference between a compulsory ID card and the usual stuff you carry in your pockets which is voluntary. You will actually be breaking the law *not* to have a compulsory ID card in your pocket in public and I can't see any justication for this (except maybe in times of war). Oh and you are mistaken if you think that Finland has a compulsory ID card. They don't. The Finland card is voluntary and was introduced as recently as 1999 and has been unpopular and contraversal with the Finns and by last November only 13,000 (from a population of 5 million) were issued. http://www.e.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=9958 Gererally the idea of compulsory ID cards is very unpopular in both Northern Europe and English speaking countries and its only the Southern Europeans (and Germany) who have them. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:48:56AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
There are plenty of similar laws in the US, such as the law in St. Louis
where if you are found with less than $10 on your person, you can be fined
and/or jailed for vagrancy.
tongue location=cheek
Surely it can't be long until Dubya pushes this one through for the whole
country? Then watch as the threshold slowly creeps up until being poor is a
de facto crime.
/tongue
Seriously though,
You don't carry any ID on you at times? What
happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your
body will be identified?
My debit cards? Business card? Piece of paper in my wallet that states my
name, address and telephone number? (Yes, I have one.) There are plenty of
things you can identify yourself with, and none of them need to be
mandatory.
Getting fussy over having to carry an ID card, much like your health card
and your Tesco card and your bank card and your credit cards...work on a
more credible argument :)
Can you be arrested for not carrying any of those? Can a policeman stop you
in the street because he/she doesn't like the look of you and _require_ you
to produce them, with the full force of the law behind him/her? I think
you'll find that the answer is no.
--
# Earle Martin http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EarleMartin
$a=f695a9a2176a7dd1618af6649896ee10f05ea986de18af6277e9a1d8ef4696644569a1d.
8ef46961ae1e64277e9896eea7d92ea8003e9a1d8ef4696f6950;$b=8ALB6AIA4.BA2;$c=
join,unpackC*,$b;$c=~s/7/2/g;@b=split,$c;foreach$d(@b){$e=hex(substr($a
,$f,$d));while(length($e)8){substr($e,0,0)=0;}print packb8,$e;$f+=$d;}
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? well they put you in a morge and release basic information to the police, who search their missing persons and suggest identification to anyone who reports a missing person fitting the basic description. after X amount of time the police publicise some of the information asking for help in identification. a guy was found dead in a rosebush near my old house in kingston and he had no identification on him at all and it took about a week and half for the police to eventually identifiy him (as a semi-homeless local alcoholic). duncan
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On 28 Aug 2003 at 16:47, Steve Mynott wrote: Gererally the idea of compulsory ID cards is very unpopular in both Northern Europe and English speaking countries and its only the Southern Europeans (and Germany) who have them. And as far as I'm aware of, Germans don't mind having their national ID card (Personalausweis / Perso). On the other hand, I'm not sure quite how compulsive it is; I've heard conflicting information on, say, whether you are required by law to have it on you at all times. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I don't live in St. Louis but if I did I would be complaining about that *law. One bad law in St. Louis doesn't justify introducing a bad law in *the UK. It's a really old law, one that has never actually been used as far as I'm aware. Finland has a law against drinking from open containers outdoors which seems to be ignored and only used in flagrante delicto. *There is a big difference between a compulsory ID card and the usual *stuff you carry in your pockets which is voluntary. You're required to carry a drivers license when driving and could be fined and/or jailed if you don't. I've been busted for forgetting my wallet and license before and I paid a fine. As a member of a society, it could be applied similarly. Would you rather be chipped or barcoded? *You will actually be breaking the law *not* to have a compulsory ID card *in your pocket in public and I can't see any justication for this *(except maybe in times of war). This is interesting...why would war make it justifiable? There hasn't been a year in the past 200 years when there hasn't been a war somewhere. *Oh and you are mistaken if you think that Finland has a compulsory ID *card. They don't. I believe it is for alien residents, but for citizens, no. *The Finland card is voluntary and was introduced as recently as 1999 and *has been unpopular and contraversal with the Finns and by last November *only 13,000 (from a population of 5 million) were issued. * *http://www.e.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=9958 This is actually a different card from the henkilokortti which is just an ID card. The smart cards that I mentioned previously are only now starting to filter down and most of those 13k were likely issued to alien residents. *Gererally the idea of compulsory ID cards is very unpopular in both *Northern Europe and English speaking countries and its only the Southern *Europeans (and Germany) who have them. I seem to remember Sweden and Denmark having national IDs. So, if it wasn't compulsory, the national ID would be ok? e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And as far as I'm aware of, Germans don't mind having their national ID card (Personalausweis / Perso). On the other hand, I'm not sure quite how compulsive it is; I've heard conflicting information on, say, whether you are required by law to have it on you at all times. That could be rather irritating if you're a naturist. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
You don't carry any ID on you at times? What happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your body will be identified? My blood donor card seems particularly well-suited for this case. d
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Earle Martin wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:48:56AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: You don't carry any ID on you at times? What happens if you get hit by a bus and you're alone? How do you expect your body will be identified? My debit cards? Business card? Piece of paper in my wallet that states my name, address and telephone number? (Yes, I have one.) There are plenty of things you can identify yourself with, and none of them need to be mandatory. I always have in my wallet an official and signed statement asserting that I authorize hospitals to take my organs off my dead body and use them without bothering asking my family. As a side-effect, it identifies me. Getting fussy over having to carry an ID card, much like your health card and your Tesco card and your bank card and your credit cards...work on a more credible argument :) Can you be arrested for not carrying any of those? Can a policeman stop you in the street because he/she doesn't like the look of you and _require_ you to produce them, with the full force of the law behind him/her? I think you'll find that the answer is no. I remember six or seven years ago, there was that G7 summit in Lyon. My flat was 50 meters next to the Hotel de Ville were all presidents and ministers were awaited. At each and every corner, policemen and soldiers were asking people for papers. I had to prove I was living in this street to be actually able to walk in it.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Nicholas Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 05:39:49PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? Not sure. We seem to manage without. I didn't say you didn't manage, just that I thought that that was what Elaine was saying, and that it certainly helps. It also helps pull up your medical history from file if you're not dead but uncounscious or otherwise unable to communicate the fact that you may need special treatment for some reason. France has ID cards - are the 300 unclaimed bodies in Paris (or whatever the figure now is) unidentified, or identified but unclaimed? The figure is, thankfully, much lower now. However, I'm very much afraid that most of those are identified but unclaimed because the families don't care. I don't see how a vast majority of those bodies could be unidentified when most died either at home, in old people's houses, or in hospital after having been brought there by someone who knew their identity. It's an awful lot, but compared to the death toll it's about 2.5%. I wouldn't be surprised if 2.5% of the population either didn't have a family or close friends, or had a family that doesn't care about them. -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Andy Wardley wrote: I've got a new credit card waiting to be signed. This escapade here: http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/ is making me wonder what I should sign it with. This one, [also?] from this month's Cryptogram, is also pretty good: http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2003/07/17manssignatureof.html Charles Weinstein's signature is more legible than many - it is just that it appears to be upside down. And this is a problem for the Delaware Division of Motor Vehicles, which informed Weinstein on Monday that his signature was unacceptable. Weinstein said a clerk told him he would not get a new driver's license until he agreed to sign it right. Weinstein, 45, of Glasgow, has refused, saying it should be up to him, not the DMV, to decide how he writes his name. He said he trained himself to write his name in this unusual way, working right-side up, as a way to make his mark unique. He said he has been signing his name this way for more than eight years on all official papers, checks, credit cards - even his old driver's license. It was never a major problem until this week, he said, when he went to the DMV office on Airport Road to change his address. [] The funny thing is, looking at the sample image [1], there doesn't seem to be a need for him to have trained himself to write it upside down -- he could have just spun the receipt around and signed it normally. Maybe he's just able to do it faster this way, or draw less attention, or just thought it was funnier. Which is as good of a reason as any other. In any case, he apparently was able to have this kind of fun for eight years before some bureaucrat decided to give him a hard time about it -- and it appears that legally the bureaucrat has no legal basis for making a complaint: However, Williams said, no one could find any statute that defined an acceptable signature, which is why the matter was sent to the attorney general. We want to get this resolved, he said. Your English mileage may not be 5280 feet like ours is :) And I suppose there's nothing to stop me from having a second credit card that I sign Cherie Blair Blows Goats or even I stole this card too. That would be quite amusing for those times when a shop assistant asks me for another card to verify my signature. You could sign it with no hands. Or feet. Like the way you type. That might not go unnoticed, however. Ho ho ho. Indeed :) -- Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://devers.homeip.net:8080/ aibophobia, n. The fear of palindromes. -- from _The Computer Contradictionary_, Stan Kelly-Bootle, 1995
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 11:02:39AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: *Gererally the idea of compulsory ID cards is very unpopular in both *Northern Europe and English speaking countries and its only the Southern *Europeans (and Germany) who have them. I seem to remember Sweden and Denmark having national IDs. So, if it wasn't compulsory, the national ID would be ok? Not sure. I think part of the problem is that there are several levels of compulsory, and no-one is clear which the government wants: 0: You must carry it at all times 1: You must have one, but you only need to produce it within $days (such as the law on producing driving licences with IIRC 5 days) and then the fiddly ones 2: It's not compulsory (but you will rot on the AE trolley if you don't happen to have it) - ie self sufficient hermits only need not apply 3: You don't have to have the physical card. (But Big Brother will still have the database record on you) Of course, we don't exactly trust the government round here to tell the truth ie http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2965984.stm and of course the current fun with who was telling porkies: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3186981.stm That doesn't answer your question directly, but I think that the opposition fragments because different people object to different levels on the above list of possibilities Nicholas Clark
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I seem to remember Sweden and Denmark having national IDs. So, if it wasn't compulsory, the national ID would be ok? Nobody has yet brought up the idea of a national ego card. I think this would be a far preferrable alternative. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Nicholas Clark wrote: That doesn't answer your question directly, but I think that the opposition fragments because different people object to different levels on the above list of possibilities Indeed. My own oppostion stems from two, not entirely unrelated themes. 1. I have seen no evidence that it will be any harder to obtain an identity card than it currently is to obtain a passport. So it's benefit in reducing benefit fraud etc is minimal at best and certainly doesn't seem to justify the extreme cost. 2. The governments ability to deliver large scale IT projects is almost zero. Time after time major projects have failed and this will be the largest IT project undertaken by central government. It is almost certain to fail too, wasting tens or hundreds of millions of pounds of our money. On a conceptual level I have no particular problem with carrying an id card. Do I trust the government to get it right and to protect my data ? Not a bloody chance ! Simon. -- Death or plumbing?
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Chris Devers wrote: http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2003/07/17manssignatureof.html [] He said he trained himself to write his name in this unusual way, working right-side up, as a way to make his mark unique. He said he has been signing his name this way for more than eight years on all official papers, checks, credit cards - even his old driver's license. It was never a major problem until this week, he said, when he went to the DMV office on Airport Road to change his address. [] The funny thing is, looking at the sample image [1], there doesn't seem to be a need for him to have trained himself to write it upside down Damned dangling footnotes... [1] http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2003/07/images/165042.jpg -- Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://devers.homeip.net:8080/ terminology, n. Both the nomenclatura and its catastrophic side-effects. See also ONOMANCY; WINDOWS. -- from _The Computer Contradictionary_, Stan Kelly-Bootle, 1995
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: *There is a big difference between a compulsory ID card and the usual *stuff you carry in your pockets which is voluntary. You're required to carry a drivers license when driving and could be fined and/or jailed if you don't. I've been busted for forgetting my wallet and license before and I paid a fine. As a member of a society, it could be applied similarly. Would you rather be chipped or barcoded? A driving licence is still voluntary. I don't have one for example. Having a licence to drive a large dangerous lump of metal around the city streets is understandable where having a walking licence to visit your corner shop isn't. To quote the obvious quote here I am not a number I am freeman! :) *You will actually be breaking the law *not* to have a compulsory ID card *in your pocket in public and I can't see any justication for this *(except maybe in times of war). This is interesting...why would war make it justifiable? There hasn't been a year in the past 200 years when there hasn't been a war somewhere. I am being realistic and looking at history. The only times UK has had compulsory ID was in the First and Second World Wars. If your country is in serious danger of being directly invaded then maybe there would be justification then. Although also there is the danger of the related centralised database of information being seized by the invader and used to deport people with Jewish names or whatever. I am stating this weakly since this could led to oh aren't we at war against terrorism now type arguments when there weren't even compulsory ID cards in Northern Ireland while the Troubles were on, although they did issue higher quality driving licences with photographs before the mainland ever did. *Gererally the idea of compulsory ID cards is very unpopular in both *Northern Europe and English speaking countries and its only the Southern *Europeans (and Germany) who have them. I seem to remember Sweden and Denmark having national IDs. Neither country does currently according to http://www.warmwell.com/july4id.html So, if it wasn't compulsory, the national ID would be ok? No because of the high danger of any voluntary scheme (through the likely low take up) becoming a compulsory scheme over time. It's a step in a bad and unnecessary direction. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Rafael Garcia-Suarez [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I always have in my wallet an official and signed statement asserting *that I authorize hospitals to take my organs off my dead body and use *them without bothering asking my family. As a side-effect, it identifies *me. One of my side-jobs when I was starving in research was a night-shift eyeball harvester for an organ bank. You'd be surprised how many organs were lost to people not carrying their cards, the hospital not asking the family or, more commonly, the family refusing to allow the hospital to take the organs the former owner wanted donated. Theoretically, this sort of information could be put on an ID and save a few lives. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *On a conceptual level I have no particular problem with carrying an id *card. Do I trust the government to get it right and to protect my data ? *Not a bloody chance ! Indeed, I feel the same, but it's only a matter of time before it comes. e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Steve Mynott wrote: The Finland card is voluntary and was introduced as recently as 1999 and [... snip ...] Gererally the idea of compulsory ID cards is very unpopular in both Northern Europe and English speaking countries and its only the Southern Europeans (and Germany) who have them. Brazil (South America) maintains a compulsory ID card. If you're stopped and isn't carring your ID card, the authority may (or may not) arrest you for 24 hours, until your identity is determined. I think that sucks. Most part of population just carries his/her/its ID cards. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Luis Campos de Carvalho is Computer Scientist, PerlMonk [SiteDocClan], Cascavel-pm Moderator, Unix Sys Admin Certified Oracle DBA http://br.geocities.com/monsieur_champs/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I don't think that's what Elaine was pointing at. You're hit by a bus and *die. How do they contact your friends and family if you can't be identified? Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Perl people have friends and families?! :) Given the definition: Friends: (def.): Folks that come to the London-PM Social Meetings and drink with you sometimes; The closest answer shall be sometimes, yes, imho... =-] -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Luis Campos de Carvalho is Computer Scientist, PerlMonk [SiteDocClan], Cascavel-pm Moderator, Unix Sys Admin Certified Oracle DBA http://br.geocities.com/monsieur_champs/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Aah, but what programming language would be best for them to use on such a project? VB obvously. oh god, i'm sorry, the fact that sleep deprivation due to jetlag has had serious affects on my sanity is now patently obvious. (btw, /me waves from sunny california). a Michael
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
But how much are we *already* measured, controlled, and modelled, with and without our consent? with consent: air miles card purchases track spending habits in order to sell the individual behaviour to all-too-willing purchasers. without: POS transactions (EC card in Europe, Interac in Canada) are tracked and cross-referenced to each other to generate spending-profile patterms. POS-transaction houses (my wife once worked for one) make the bulk of their money cross-referencing card-based spending patterns with air miles cards and CC cards, generating comprehensive behaviour models for individuals. We didn't really pay attention, but we gave consent to have this happen when we signed up to POS. There are limits in the EU about this, but you have to *know* it is happening in order to complain... with even less: I do not know if thi sis done... Correlate POS/air mile data with card-based mobile phone users, and get real-time positionning of people who are nown to pruchase specific products. So the obvious question is, since we've already given away our privacy, is there necessarily anything wrong improved identity verification to meet current falsification standards? We pay into services through taxation, and we complain about 'foreigners' using up 'Our' services, but we want 'Them' to enforce service-access authentication without having to put up with any means to identify us. I realize that nobody on this list has complained that 'foreigners' (of which I am usually a member) are the Cause Of All Problems, but governements are putting these control points into our lives to deal with 'teh-roh-rists' and 'foreigners'. I submit that we as a population are the root cause of these new authentication demands because we asked for better policing of identity. (of course, I concede that this seems to be getting a bit out of hand).
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 04:47:13PM +0100, Earle Martin wrote: tongue location=cheek Surely it can't be long until Dubya pushes this one through for the whole country? Then watch as the threshold slowly creeps up until being poor is a de facto crime. /tongue I thought it already was ... thinks: prison statistics/ Seriously though, Yeah, I was :-( -- Chris Benson
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Getting fussy over having to carry an ID card, much like your health card and your Tesco card and your bank card and your credit cards...work on a more credible argument :) The top ten more credible arguments for not carrying an ID card 10 I left my ID card at home. 9 I have lost my ID card. Well, I think I have. 8 Actually, my ID card was stolen. 7 Well, it may have been stolen, but more likely my wallet fell out of my pocket and slid under the seat of the car and right now I just want to walk to the shop and buy a newspaper, and not have to get on my hands and knees and root around amongst the soda cans and empty Marlboro packets. 6 I am a vampire and the picture on my ID card is blank. 5 I have a split personality disorder and my other personality has the ID card today. 4 I am not a criminal or a slave and I don't want to be treated like I am one. 3 I have no pockets. 2 I have no hands. and the number one reason for not carrying an ID card: 1 I don't want to. All perfectly credible arguments for not carrying an ID card, a Tesco card, a credit card, a mobile phone or anything else that you don't want to. I've got no objection to ID cards and would probably have one and carry it most times. But I don't want anyone telling me that I *have* to carry it. A
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 05:38:23PM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: On a conceptual level I have no particular problem with carrying an id card. Do I trust the government to get it right and to protect my data ? Not a bloody chance ! Especially since, given the Guv's love affair with MS, (and lack of funding and training) all the data will probably be stored in a Access database stored on a shared drive somewhere ... waiting for SoBig.[J-Za-z0-9] to mail it to every possible email address in the known universe. Sorry: I'm feeling pissed after another day writing Perl programs to analyse and report the 00's of PCs using up to 70% of the 10Gbit backbone bandwidth at work ... and a couple of days after hearing that the NorthEast's emergency response teams plans are all stored as ... .doc and .mdb :-( -- Chris Benson
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:29, Chris Benson wrote; CB I thought it already was ... thinks: prison statistics/ I thought that the US prison statistics were because of the War on Drugs. -- Sam Vilain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] To know the truth is to distort the Universe. -- Alfred N. Whitehead (adaptation)
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Sam Vilain [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I think a better approach to the problem with people's organs failing *all over the place would be to replace the USDA Food Pyramid touted *around the world as nutritional perfection, to something actually *based on scientific study and research :-) Like Soylent Green? :) e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 03:15:05PM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Sam Vilain [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I think a better approach to the problem with people's organs failing *all over the place would be to replace the USDA Food Pyramid touted *around the world as nutritional perfection, to something actually *based on scientific study and research :-) Like Soylent Green? :) Imagine the heath warnings that would have to carry, if it were made in the US. (My immediate thought was the fat per 100g, based on my impression of US obesity statistics, but it occurs to me that may cause altzheimers or CJD would be the more worrying problem.) Nicholas Clark
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Ronan Oger (roasp) [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *with even less: *I do not know if thi sis done... Correlate POS/air mile data with card-based *mobile phone users, and get real-time positionning of people who are nown to *pruchase specific products. I can say that I know it's possible and likely will come one of these days in the not terribly distant future. Proximity based news, weather and possibly adverts for stores and sales you're near to. *to identify us. I realize that nobody on this list has complained that *'foreigners' (of which I am usually a member) are the Cause Of All Problems, *but governements are putting these control points into our lives to deal with *'teh-roh-rists' and 'foreigners'. Or resident alien :) *I submit that we as a population are the root cause of these new *authentication demands because we asked for better policing of identity. Finland has an interesting system as, even though there are ID cards, the ID card is really just a bit of plastic that sits in your wallet. What is important is the centralised database that connects /everything/ from your income to your health records to your residence to your entire record of note. When the cops pull you over they have access to your driving record and your fine will be based on your record and your annual income. This is all done with a cell phone while you wait in your car. There is an office whose only purpose is to wade through the access logs to this database and confirm that all are for legitimate purposes. I have to admit that it's pretty cool that the delivery people have access to phone numbers for the purpose of ringing you up on your cell phone to arrange delivery of a package. If a package is misdirected, they can reroute it to your current address. Afterall, isn't this the culmination of the promise of techonology that we've all been hoping for all of these years? e.
Re: insidious biometrics, identity crises
Nicholas Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *Imagine the heath warnings that would have to carry, if it were made in *the US. * *(My immediate thought was the fat per 100g, based on my impression of US *obesity statistics, but it occurs to me that may cause altzheimers or *CJD would be the more worrying problem.) Or mad cow considering all the prions. It certainly would give new meaning to the US 'feeding the world' :) e.
