[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? ed At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not seem to have interested him a great deal. But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so they do not seem to be "unplayable". All the best Mark p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 (reconstitution É. Bellocq) prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle japonaise. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 prélude, fugue et allegro. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valery Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
So... what's the magic tuning? --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Roman Turovsky wrote: > From: Roman Turovsky > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 10:29 AM > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" > tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that > does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach > wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of > the "lute" works being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some > others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that > a newly invented lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" > doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own > time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired > Vivaldi who wrote several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an > oratorio. Surely, Bach must have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and > violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he > wrote dozens of suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, > partitas, etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello > suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute > saying it is a lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from > the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and > the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these > incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq > accepted the challenge and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this > purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these > compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, > where is the evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements > have been recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque > lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is > the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not > surprising considering that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music > dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of > the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions > and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar > player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play > a guitar in form of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute > "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he > wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a > horde of irate > > > lutenists: > > > > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar > playing lutenists here have > > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety > of types of guitars and > > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are > very good for playing > > some > > > > > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good > for playing most lute > > > music. To play lute music decently on guitar > takes a certain > > touch...there > > > > > are players that can do it. > > > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in > ensemble playing e.g > > Boulez: > > > > > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > > > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > > > Best, > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: chriswi...@yahoo.c
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]
Me, too. I would even say, "stunning". Chris. >>> "Eugene C. Braig IV" 12/21/2009 10:02 AM >>> I agree. Simply beautiful. Thank you, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of vance wood > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:17 AM > To: Lute List >; Ron Andrico > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] > > That was very nice, beautiful, clean and without pretension. I'm glad you > took the time to put this together. > - Original Message - > From: "Ron Andrico" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:11 AM > Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] > > > > To All: > > After spending insane hours dedicated to house-building in a mad > > attempt to beat the snow and frozen ground, and the usual spate of > > December gigs, we took the time to make a new video. > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT4PLrF0utc > > This is a performance of Mignonne allons voir si la rose from the > > poetry of Pierre Ronsard, also recorded on our CD Divine Amarillis. > > The original is found only as a single melody line in Jehan > > Chardavoine's _Recueil de chansons en forme de voix de ville_ (1576). > > The engaging melody has often been performed with a drone, unison > > doubling or simple arpeggio accompaniment. In searching for a more > > interesting mode of performance, we looked to contemporary settings of > > Ronsard's poetry, and in particular, settings by Adrian Le Roy. > > We discovered that the tune works with only minor adjustments to Le > > Roy's Passemeze harmonization and, since LeRoy set several other poems > > by Ronsard in a similar manner, we feel our setting is historically > > justifiable. > > Happy Christmas to all. > > Ron & Donna > > [1]www.mignarda.com > > __ > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [2]Sign up now. > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. [2]http://www.mignarda.com/ > > 2. [3]http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 4703 (20091220) __ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > [5]http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4703 (20091220) __ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > [6]http://www.eset.com > > -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT4PLrF0utc 2. http://www.mignarda.com/ 3. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute 5. http://www.eset.com/ 6. http://www.eset.com/
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
eric bellocq: See his website: It was while finishing his study of guitar in 1983 with Alexandre Lagoya at the Paris Conservatory (where he now teaches) that Eric Bellocq received his first initiation to basso continuo and started to work in William Christie's baroque group, " Les Arts Florissants", which he subsequently left in 1990. >From 1991, he has been playing mainly renaissance lute with the ensemble "Clément Janequin", directed by Dominique Visse. Since 2000, with the show "Le Chant des Balles", a duo with a juggler Vincent de Lavenère, he has been able to resume production of his own musical works, while remaining faithful to the early music styles. Apart from participating in a large number of discs with various orchestras and groups, a few duet and solo recordings have been released by Naxos, Kings Records (Japan) and Frame (Italy). In 2009, his research on J. S. Bach's works for lute took a concrete form by virtue of an innovative new tuning for the instrument. Important European festivals such as AMUZ (Antwerp) or Festival de Saintes gave audience an opportunity to listen to the suites BWV 996, 997 and 998, which were rarely performed in live concert. I must tell that his old programme "Chant des balles" with the juggler is really very good, I saw it twice. The "Bach en Balles" last February at the Lute Festival in Antwerp was the first performance of their new programme, but not quite ready IMHO (playing by heart, in a total new tuning, while juggling and sitting on a moving low chair: it was a too big challenge, all these things combined) I always found it a bit suspicious that the director of Amuz, our partner in the organisation of this festival, really believed his statement that the the so called lute suites were "rarely performed in live concert" and that he just discovered the Liuto Forte and this new tuning. But as they payed him for this "première"...(First performance) we couldn't really object,and luckily we also had our own programmes. Looking forward to the next European (or World) Lute Festival now in Füssen, Germany next May 21-24 in 2010 Greet Belgian Lute Society -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens lute Verzonden: maandag 21 december 2009 22:06 Aan: 'Franz Mechsner'; 'Sauvage Valéry'; 'lute' Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not seem to have interested him a great deal. But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so they do not seem to be "unplayable". All the best Mark p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 (reconstitution É. Bellocq) prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle japonaise. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 prélude, fugue et allegro. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
>>> 12/21/2009 10:00 AM >>> OK, it has finally come to this ;-) First, check out this modern abomination of many guitars: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARQsw4ml8g (Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) --That's 'cause they're all acoustic, Chris! Just give 'em Strats and they'll knock the drummer off the stage! -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARQsw4ml8g To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Hi, all. No specific counterexamples here, but in general having something banned by the Church is not (IMHO) a reliable indicator that it was not done. I'll quote as best I can from a 16th century French writer (sorry, can't remember the name, I'm sure someone here knows) reporting what he saw when present at the reading of a papal bull in Rome: "...(and it was announced) that anyone wrongly appropriating Church funds would fall under threat of excommunication, at which the Cardinals Sforza and deMedici laughed heartily." And to quote my old Ren. dance teacher: "A good way to find out what was popular is to see what the church banned." Best to all, Chris. >>> "Mathias Roesel" 12/21/2009 2:12 PM >>> What can this debate be about? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar was never played at sacred occasions because the Church had banned the guitar from service (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, composers would strictly exclude the guitar from their sacred compositions (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar would more often than not evoke secular sweets and was therefore rather rarely to be found performing, or as accompaniment of, sacred music (no counterexample possible, matter of more or less)? Mathias "howard posner" schrieb: > > On Dec 21, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > > But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical > > instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. > > As a practical matter, it did, probably because of the lost-Temple > business. > > > I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people > > mustn't play them > > or listen > > > during their official period of mourning either unless they need to > > to earn their living. > > > This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the > > point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the > > way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the > > Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the > > baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. > > Tosh and nonsense, my dear (or perhaps nonsense and tosh; I always > forget which comes first). How is it possible that the Catholic > Church could have had a precise rule excluding the guitar at Vespers, > and such an eminent scholar as yourself not be aware of it and be > reduced to speculation? > > The point is that every instrument, including the organ, was at some > point considered improper for services, but rather a lot of them > sneaked into church somehow. We can't say categorically that any > instrument wouldn't have been used in Mantua in 1610, or Venice in > 1640. Nor can we exclude "secular" sounds in the Dominus ad > adjuvandum, which uses a secular fanfare over the super-falsobordone > intonation of the text, and breaks it up with interludes that are > obviously galliards. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up.
Parkour lute! Playing Dowland while running up walls and leaping over buildings. I have to see this. Youtube, anyone? P 2009/12/21 Franz Mechsner <[1]franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk> this seems not too bad for a start: [1][2]http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/2008/12/26/warming-up-why-bother/ -- References 1. [3]http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/2008/12/26/warming-up-why-bother/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk 2. http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/2008/12/26/warming-up-why-bother/ 3. http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/2008/12/26/warming-up-why-bother/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]
>> To All: >> After spending insane hours dedicated to house-building in a mad >> attempt to beat the snow and frozen ground, and the usual spate of >> December gigs, we took the time to make a new video. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT4PLrF0utc >> This is a performance of Mignonne allons voir si la rose from the >> poetry of Pierre Ronsard, also recorded on our CD Divine Amarillis. >> The original is found only as a single melody line in Jehan >> Chardavoine's _Recueil de chansons en forme de voix de ville_ (1576). >> The engaging melody has often been performed with a drone, unison >> doubling or simple arpeggio accompaniment. In searching for a more >> interesting mode of performance, we looked to contemporary settings of >> Ronsard's poetry, and in particular, settings by Adrian Le Roy. >> We discovered that the tune works with only minor adjustments to Le >> Roy's Passemeze harmonization and, since LeRoy set several other poems >> by Ronsard in a similar manner, we feel our setting is historically >> justifiable. c'est belle et bon! two of my favorite melodys put together, bravo! Jouyouse nouelle a tout de monde, and a merry bah humbug to all. hope you like it white, I just got done shoveling two foot from a 100 foot path plus a spot for the car, somebody better get some joy of it. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not seem to have interested him a great deal. But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so they do not seem to be "unplayable". All the best Mark p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 (reconstitution É. Bellocq) prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle japonaise. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 prélude, fugue et allegro. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valery Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there
[LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up.
this seems not too bad for a start: [1]http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/2008/12/26/warming-up-why-bother/ -- References 1. http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/2008/12/26/warming-up-why-bother/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: (sorry) serpent/bajon/chant
I'm a fan of Paul McCreech to - one of the most convincing in this repertoire I think. Best wishes for the Festive Season. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: (sorry) serpent/bajon/chant Guy, after my admittedly limited experience with the serpent, I'm ready to buy that theory! I have a friend who grows historical roses based entirely on her interest in their provenance. If it's an ungainly shrub blooming some lurid shade of puce every six and a half years, and produces nothing but thorns, thrips, and blackspot all the rest, but it's got a great story, she has to have it. I felt the same about the poor serpent. Of course it's fascinating, but... And Monica, I'd forgotten about that Paul McCreesh recording, but now you mention it, I seem to remember our little schola giggling about how the Gabrielli Consort - one of our idols - needed to get a fresh pitch between every movement...and they probably had time to actually practice. (Yes, of course we understood what they were doing. Sometimes sight reading late into the night in an unheated cathedral produces giddiness.) Okay, I'll leave you all to discuss the lute. -Donna -Original Message- > From:Monica Hall > In Spain in the 16th century the bajon was used to accompany chant although > what it seems to have been used for was to sound the appropriate pitch note > of each section so as to keep the singers on pitch. I think the plainchant > on Paul McCreech's recording of Victoria's Requiem is done in that way. > From: Guy Smith > > Given how difficult the serpent is to play at pitch, it might well have been > the other way around for serpent:-) __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up.
This discussion is probably more hypothetical than objective, being determined by the individual player more than an over all axiom. I think that the actual effort of "warming up" the hands plays a dual purpose; that of warming up the focus. As the hands become mobile the mind becomes more intent on the labor. As the mind becomes more intent on the labor and focused on the music the hands become less tense and more in harmony with the mind. If your mind is wandering to the itch in your back side your hands are less with what your mind is doing or wanting to do. I know that is a crude metaphor but it does demonstrate what I believe is the occasion to double mindedness where the total commitment of the mind hinders the commitment of the hands. - Original Message - From: "Suzanne and Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up. In my opinion, its definitely not just in the brain. If I try to play early in the morning, even after I've had my caffeine, the fingers of both hands just don't work all that well. By the afternoon the brain may be sluggish and in need of a nap, but the fingers are warm and much more capable. Of course you need both the mental and finger facility. But clearly warmed up fingers is really a physical thing. Suzanne Since being warmed up is a major part of lute playing, I wonder whether anyone knows about the physiology of being warmed up? Is being warmed up in the brain? In the muscles? In the spinal cord? Can one learn not to need it? Can drugs help? Is it related to the distinction between short-term memory and long-term memory? What everyday lute playing wisdom might shed light on the question? Etc. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4707 (20091221) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4707 (20091221) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
What can this debate be about? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar was never played at sacred occasions because the Church had banned the guitar from service (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, composers would strictly exclude the guitar from their sacred compositions (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar would more often than not evoke secular sweets and was therefore rather rarely to be found performing, or as accompaniment of, sacred music (no counterexample possible, matter of more or less)? Mathias "howard posner" schrieb: > > On Dec 21, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > > But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical > > instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. > > As a practical matter, it did, probably because of the lost-Temple > business. > > > I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people > > mustn't play them > > or listen > > > during their official period of mourning either unless they need to > > to earn their living. > > > This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the > > point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the > > way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the > > Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the > > baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. > > Tosh and nonsense, my dear (or perhaps nonsense and tosh; I always > forget which comes first). How is it possible that the Catholic > Church could have had a precise rule excluding the guitar at Vespers, > and such an eminent scholar as yourself not be aware of it and be > reduced to speculation? > > The point is that every instrument, including the organ, was at some > point considered improper for services, but rather a lot of them > sneaked into church somehow. We can't say categorically that any > instrument wouldn't have been used in Mantua in 1610, or Venice in > 1640. Nor can we exclude "secular" sounds in the Dominus ad > adjuvandum, which uses a secular fanfare over the super-falsobordone > intonation of the text, and breaks it up with interludes that are > obviously galliards. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up.
In my opinion, its definitely not just in the brain. If I try to play early in the morning, even after I've had my caffeine, the fingers of both hands just don't work all that well. By the afternoon the brain may be sluggish and in need of a nap, but the fingers are warm and much more capable. Of course you need both the mental and finger facility. But clearly warmed up fingers is really a physical thing. Suzanne > > > Since being warmed up is a major part of lute playing, I wonder > whether anyone knows about the physiology of being warmed up? > > Is being warmed up in the brain? In the muscles? In the spinal cord? > Can one learn not to need it? Can drugs help? Is it related to the > distinction between short-term memory and long-term memory? What > everyday lute playing wisdom might shed light on the question? Etc. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Physiology of being warmed up.
Since being warmed up is a major part of lute playing, I wonder whether anyone knows about the physiology of being warmed up? Is being warmed up in the brain? In the muscles? In the spinal cord? Can one learn not to need it? Can drugs help? Is it related to the distinction between short-term memory and long-term memory? What everyday lute playing wisdom might shed light on the question? Etc. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
On Dec 21, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical > instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. As a practical matter, it did, probably because of the lost-Temple business. > I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people > mustn't play them or listen > during their official period of mourning either unless they need to > to earn their living. > This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the > point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the > way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the > Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the > baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. Tosh and nonsense, my dear (or perhaps nonsense and tosh; I always forget which comes first). How is it possible that the Catholic Church could have had a precise rule excluding the guitar at Vespers, and such an eminent scholar as yourself not be aware of it and be reduced to speculation? The point is that every instrument, including the organ, was at some point considered improper for services, but rather a lot of them sneaked into church somehow. We can't say categorically that any instrument wouldn't have been used in Mantua in 1610, or Venice in 1640. Nor can we exclude "secular" sounds in the Dominus ad adjuvandum, which uses a secular fanfare over the super-falsobordone intonation of the text, and breaks it up with interludes that are obviously galliards. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Bacho
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of howard posner > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 12:31 PM > To: Lutelist list > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto Bacho > > > On Dec 21, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > > Obviously not, and I should have been more clear. I was referring > > to what > > has survived of Bach's music bearing a lute designation or > > attribution. > > Especially if intended for actual rather than idealized > > hypothetical lutes > > (or lautenwerk), that music still seems to inhabit the realm of > > novelty > > amongst Bach's output. I have many texts on botanical taxonomy on my > > shelves, but I'm not a botanist. I own an excellent jazz guitar, > > but have > > left even less evidence that I'm an excellent jazz guitarist (for good > > reason: I'm not) than Bach did that he was a lutenist with > > professional > > aspirations to publish collections of lute music. > > I suppose you're using "publish" in a loose sense, since Bach had > very limited interest in producing printed editions of his music of > any kind. > > He did, however, write a lot of music for instruments on which he is > not known to have played professionally, as most composers did. He > may well have written lute works because he liked the instrument and > knew good players. > > In any event, we're forgetting the first rule of Bach scholarship: > all instrumental works are adaptations from lost cantatas, and > everything in the cantatas is adapted from lost instrumental music > (except, of course, in those cases where we actually know the works > that were adapted). Thus, his Lutheran masses were all arrangements > from his lost lute suites. Voila! Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Bacho
On Dec 21, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > Obviously not, and I should have been more clear. I was referring > to what > has survived of Bach's music bearing a lute designation or > attribution. > Especially if intended for actual rather than idealized > hypothetical lutes > (or lautenwerk), that music still seems to inhabit the realm of > novelty > amongst Bach's output. I have many texts on botanical taxonomy on my > shelves, but I'm not a botanist. I own an excellent jazz guitar, > but have > left even less evidence that I'm an excellent jazz guitarist (for good > reason: I'm not) than Bach did that he was a lutenist with > professional > aspirations to publish collections of lute music. I suppose you're using "publish" in a loose sense, since Bach had very limited interest in producing printed editions of his music of any kind. He did, however, write a lot of music for instruments on which he is not known to have played professionally, as most composers did. He may well have written lute works because he liked the instrument and knew good players. In any event, we're forgetting the first rule of Bach scholarship: all instrumental works are adaptations from lost cantatas, and everything in the cantatas is adapted from lost instrumental music (except, of course, in those cases where we actually know the works that were adapted). Thus, his Lutheran masses were all arrangements from his lost lute suites. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:00 AM, wrote: > (Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert > player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) As the tympani, bass drum, cymbals, tam-tam, or gong (and, I'm sure, other percussion instruments that don't come to mind at the moment) can cover up a modern symphony orchestra. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of howard posner > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 12:03 PM > To: Lutelist list > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:28 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > > That often played out in publication, but I don't know how big a > > role it > > played in novelty pieces in manuscript, especially given Bach's > > ties to any > > actual lute (rather than lautenwerk or via transcription by > > contemporary > > lutenists) seem rather tentative. > > You mean other than the extremely expensive lute Bach actually owned? > Obviously not, and I should have been more clear. I was referring to what has survived of Bach's music bearing a lute designation or attribution. Especially if intended for actual rather than idealized hypothetical lutes (or lautenwerk), that music still seems to inhabit the realm of novelty amongst Bach's output. I have many texts on botanical taxonomy on my shelves, but I'm not a botanist. I own an excellent jazz guitar, but have left even less evidence that I'm an excellent jazz guitarist (for good reason: I'm not) than Bach did that he was a lutenist with professional aspirations to publish collections of lute music. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:28 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > That often played out in publication, but I don't know how big a > role it > played in novelty pieces in manuscript, especially given Bach's > ties to any > actual lute (rather than lautenwerk or via transcription by > contemporary > lutenists) seem rather tentative. You mean other than the extremely expensive lute Bach actually owned? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
That's not quite what I meant. A lute song by Dowland is even different from a viol solo by Hume or a keyboard solo by Bull. Diabelli's piano fluff doesn't really compare to Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata, but the whole of early-romantic piano repertoire isn't fairly represented by either end of this spectrum. Likewise, York's Sunburst for guitar isn't quite like Balkanski's sonata, but they are both good fun and both serve a function to those who like hearing them. I was suggesting that, in whole, the body of guitar repertoire isn't necessarily any different in the *level* of quality represented. Some proportion of it can be considered noteworthy; much of it can be considered rather schlocky. I think that's the case with almost any instrument popular enough to have inspired a substantial body of designated repertoire. Some of it will be crafted to sell to the masses rather than to reflect lofty or disciplined artistic ideals. Eugene ___ From: nedma...@aol.com [mailto:nedma...@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:15 AM To: brai...@osu.edu; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte "I don't see how it's substantially different from any other instrument's repetoire. . ." I don't think it's denigrating to any instrument to accept that there are very substantial differences in both quantity and quality between it's repetoire and that of other instuments.The reason I switched from the lute to the cello many years ago was because - having enjoyed early ensemble music - I wanted to explore more recent ensemble music, especially the string quartet. The reason I've returned to the lute is that I now want to explore the wonderful solo repetoire for the lute (comparatively speaking, there ain't a lot for cello). Playing the lute, I never experienced anything like the late Beethoven quartets. Playing the cello, I never experienced anything like Dowland lute songs or solos. Not playing the piano, I'll never experience anything like the Brahms sonatas. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
That often played out in publication, but I don't know how big a role it played in novelty pieces in manuscript, especially given Bach's ties to any actual lute (rather than lautenwerk or via transcription by contemporary lutenists) seem rather tentative. Bach, e.g., also seems to have really missed his mark for solo flute. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:06 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > >An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there > >must > >be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because > >there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize > >Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. > Not only JSB, but every suite composer of the era followed a numerological > ideal. > RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
"I don't see how it's substantially different from any other instrument's repetoire. . ." I don't think it's denigrating to any instrument to accept that there are very substantial differences in both quantity and quality between it's repetoire and that of other instuments.The reason I switched from the lute to the cello many years ago was because - having enjoyed early ensemble music - I wanted to explore more recent ensemble music, especially the string quartet. The reason I've returned to the lute is that I now want to explore the wonderful solo repetoire for the lute (comparatively speaking, there ain't a lot for cello). Playing the lute, I never experienced anything like the late Beethoven quartets. Playing the cello, I never experienced anything like Dowland lute songs or solos. Not playing the piano, I'll never experience anything like the Brahms sonatas. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valery Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maA(R)tre: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage ValA(c)ry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage ValA(c)ry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > then it > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument > amplified > in even small ensembles. > > If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of > guitar > (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre > itself, > a la G
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. Not only JSB, but every suite composer of the era followed a numerological ideal. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I would like to second that! The Campion recording is superb! Mark -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. In spite, I actually am quite fond of Bellocq's recordings on 5-course guitar. In particular, note his recording of Francois Campion's music. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:29 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works > being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented > lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote > several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must > have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of > suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, > etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form > of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > > > lutenists: > > > > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here > have > > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars > and > > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars a
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. In spite, I actually am quite fond of Bellocq's recordings on 5-course guitar. In particular, note his recording of Francois Campion's music. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:29 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works > being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented > lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote > several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must > have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of > suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, > etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form > of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > > > lutenists: > > > > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here > have > > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars > and > > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing > > some > > > > > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > > > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain > > touch...there > > > > > are playe
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. I personally find it plausible. RT - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works being intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented lute type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote several works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must have composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of suites for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, etc.). It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Wheeler Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valéry Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern >
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works being intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented lute type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote several works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must have composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of suites for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, etc.). It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > six > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a luito > forte built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > playable! > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > that > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > early > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > Mark > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > Auftrag > von Sauvage Valéry > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of > a > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > itself, > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > V. > > - Original Message - > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: terli...@aol.com > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > > lutenists: > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing > some > > > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain > touch...there > > > are players that can do it. > > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g > Boulez: > > > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > > Best, > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Valery, > > > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: > >> Ok forte, > >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for > >> the one he used). > >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you > >> can play with nails... > > > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > > awful > > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > > classical > > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > > may be > > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > > the > > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other > modern > > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a > certain > > portion (but not all) of the so
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]
I agree. Simply beautiful. Thank you, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of vance wood > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:17 AM > To: Lute List >; Ron Andrico > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] > > That was very nice, beautiful, clean and without pretension. I'm glad you > took the time to put this together. > - Original Message - > From: "Ron Andrico" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:11 AM > Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] > > > > To All: > > After spending insane hours dedicated to house-building in a mad > > attempt to beat the snow and frozen ground, and the usual spate of > > December gigs, we took the time to make a new video. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT4PLrF0utc > > This is a performance of Mignonne allons voir si la rose from the > > poetry of Pierre Ronsard, also recorded on our CD Divine Amarillis. > > The original is found only as a single melody line in Jehan > > Chardavoine's _Recueil de chansons en forme de voix de ville_ (1576). > > The engaging melody has often been performed with a drone, unison > > doubling or simple arpeggio accompaniment. In searching for a more > > interesting mode of performance, we looked to contemporary settings of > > Ronsard's poetry, and in particular, settings by Adrian Le Roy. > > We discovered that the tune works with only minor adjustments to Le > > Roy's Passemeze harmonization and, since LeRoy set several other poems > > by Ronsard in a similar manner, we feel our setting is historically > > justifiable. > > Happy Christmas to all. > > Ron & Donna > > [1]www.mignarda.com > > __ > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [2]Sign up now. > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://www.mignarda.com/ > > 2. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 4703 (20091220) __ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4703 (20091220) __ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > >
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
OK, it has finally come to this ;-) First, check out this modern abomination of many guitars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARQsw4ml8g (Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) Then there's this example of a steel string guitar in classical music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-q7zTX7LE (The guitar is tuned high to low: E-C-F#-D-G-C.) How would a lute do? Chris --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Christopher Stetson wrote: > From: Christopher Stetson > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 5:24 PM > Hi, all. > > Clearly now is the time to put this out > to the list: > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6wcIOSC-u0 > > That's me on the right in the > (unamplified) classical guitar trio. You > can see my pinkie creepin' down to the > soundboard. I played electric > with pick for most of the concert. > It was fun. > > But don't get on me about Peter's > "archguitar." You'll have to talk to > him about that. > > Best, > > Chris. > >>> > 12/20/2009 10:54 AM >>> > Mark, > --- On Sun, 12/20/09, terli...@aol.com > > wrote: > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, > 9:30 AM > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed > to death by a horde of > > irate lutenists: > > > Nope. I'm not anti-classical guitar > at all. I consider myself a > musician who chooses the right tool for > the job. Much as I love > theorbo or baroque lute, there's lots of > music for which these > instruments are totally unsuitable. > Same with guitar. > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars > and guitar playing > > lutenists here have been exposed to > here but there is a wide > > variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. > > > I totally agree! As mentioned in my > last message, I believe classical > players should even expand their horizons > to include steel-string and > electric guitars in a classical > context. Nice as the nylon guitar is, > this is such an easy way to extend the > dynamic and tonal range of the > guitar to nearly orchestral proportions. > I have a master's degree in classical > guitar from highly regarded > conservatory. My main area of > emphasis was on contemporary music. > I've written a lot of music for it and > continue to write for it. > Nowadays I only compose solo music for > the nylon-string guitar for the > reasons outlined in my last message: a > modern guitar is built for the > purpose of bringing forth a full, rich > sonic spectrum. Nice. However, > much of this charm gets lost when other > instruments with greater > emphasis on higher partials are > employed. So why use it in chamber > music when other types of guitars exist > which do bring out the higher > partials? > > Hauser style > > guitar guitars are very good for > playing some lute music. > > Smallman type guitars are less good > for playing most lute > > music. To play lute music decently > on guitar takes a certain > > touch...there are players that can > do it. > True. I have no problem with > guitarists playing lute music, but I'm > not very interested in doing it myself > for the same reason I don't play > Villa-Lobos on my 13-course. At the > same time folks should keep in > mind that the nylon-string classical > guitar as we know it only came > into being circa 1950. > > The guitar (unamplified) works great > great in ensemble > > playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans > maitre: Webern op.18, > > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and > guitar.. > I haven't really found so. Even in > something like Takemitsu's "Toward > the Sea" the guitar is outshined by the > delicate alto flute. The soft > alto flute tosses off these gentle waves > of sound while us poor > guitarists are fighting to slam out every > note. I've seen these works > performed with amplified guitars but > things always sound so boomy to > me. > Already with Webern we may ask ourselves > what exactly the appropriate > instrument really is. The > Stauffer-style type of guitar construction > remained current in Austria well into the > 1920's. Certainly the > heavily-built nylon string instrument is > out! I would love to research > the status of the guitar in early > 20th-century Vienna. There's a new > idea: Second Viennese Performance > Practice! > > Best, > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; > > Sauvage Valery > > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Valery, > > > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09,
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Roman Turovsky > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 6:31 PM > To: terli...@aol.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! ... > >and is happy with finger >nails. > > ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. Considering myself to have a somewhat functional brain, I can't quite buy into that one. I do see some point in the contention, but the point fails in trying to make a universal argument of it. Not all classical guitarists only indulge the standard repertoire that is fed to the masses ad nauseam. >From the 1500s forward, guitar repertoire is so vast--and still being augmented at such a pace--that nobody could possibly digest it *all* to know enough to be sick of it all. I also don't see how it's substantially different from any other instrument's repertoire, other than that more of it is still being generated than for instruments considered (rightly or wrongly) to belong exclusively to historic repertoire like lutes, viols, lirone, etc. Enjoy...whatever you enjoy! Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Interesting - especially to one who is not Jewish. But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people mustn't play them during their official period of mourning either unless they need to to earn their living. As for carrying them - well in my neck of the woods orthodox Jews apparently consider it unacceptable to carry an umbrella on the Sabbath or push an infant in a pram. For that reason we were going to have an Eruv although I don't know if it ever got passed the planning laws. Haven't noticed it if it did. This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. Monica - Original Message - From: ""Mathias Rösel"" To: "Lutelist list" Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two Well, there's Jewish tradition in between. Rich musical temple services are described in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Arakhin. Levites playing all kinds of kinnorim (lyres), nevalim (harps), khatzotzerot (trumpets), khalilim (flutes), tuppim (drum) and many others. The reason why these instruments aren't allowed in orthodox congregations today is that that kind of service belonged to the temple which was destroyed in 70 CE and had no double. I haven't heard about the carrying an instrument violates the Sabbath argument, but it may be so. Quite a bit of Jewish musical tradition was preserved in the early Christian congregation of Rome, which had sprung out of the Jewish congregation. A core group of the new Christian group was formed by Levites. Mathias "howard posner" schrieb: Sorry, left out a sentence, rendering the message rather obscure. On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, howard posner wrote: > Christian practice derives in large part from post-Temple Jewish > practice, in which, traditionally, instruments are forbidden in > services. Alexander points out that there are Biblical references to > instruments in the Temple, and indeed, Psalm 150, with its references > to instruments (including nevel and kinnor, both of which are > sometimes translated as "lyre" or "lute"), is a common part of modern > Sabbath morning services. Left out: But in traditional congregations, the psalm, like everything else, is sung without instruments. > The reasons given for it vary: some say > it's because we're still in mourning over the destruction of the > Temple, others that playing (or tuning, or carrying) instruments > violates the Sabbath. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]
Thank you for posting this, Ron & Donna - what a wonderfully simpatico duo you are. Superb playing, singing and musicality! Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Franz, you deserve a compliment. You say you LF has a good tone, but of course you are aware that the player makes the tone. A good player can make any instrument sound good, as a bad player can make the best possible instrument sound bad. Perhaps nowhere more true than on a lute. Thanks so much David :-) but don't compliment me too much - I might get encouraged to enerve you and waste even more of my time (which should be spent otherwise) on the list... you are of course right, but not in every respect: I have NOT been able to make the LF sound much (though somwhat...) lute-like by using fingernails. It sounds lute-like ONLY with a certain finger pad technique which I found out by experimenting. I have to admit that this lute-like sound is somewhere between (romantic, finger-pad played) guitar and my double course (synthetic string) lute, but given my alternatives, I LOVED that sound because it seems to my ears a little more singing and warm than my Renaissance lute. Not very original-minded, I know... And, as I said, maybe the lute sounds best if it sounds "as it should..." as Mathias seems to suggest... I will love to take opportunities to have a try with better lutes than mine. Best Franz On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:59 PM, "Mathias Roesel" wrote: > some single-strung chitarroni with synthetical strings may come close, Or single strung archlutes with synthetics? [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_FkwK24ZYY (So much nicer than their Dowland.) David - in hiding for mentioning S. and K. on the list ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_FkwK24ZYY 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Franz, you deserve a compliment. You say you LF has a good tone, but of course you are aware that the player makes the tone. A good player can make any instrument sound good, as a bad player can make the best possible instrument sound bad. Perhaps nowhere more true than on a lute. On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:59 PM, "Mathias Rösel" wrote: > some single-strung chitarroni with synthetical strings may come close, Or single strung archlutes with synthetics? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_FkwK24ZYY (So much nicer than their Dowland.) David - in hiding for mentioning S. and K. on the list ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Dear Matthias and All, I highly appreciate your discussion remarks on the liuto forte (and in general). Your critical remarks may be quite adequate, but for now they will not change my love of the instrument. I keep open-minded, and am particularly keen to directly compare the sound with lutes. I have to admit that I have not much compared it to "real" lutes, only to my own quite cheap renaissance lute (600 GBP from Early Music Shop in Saltaire UK on the advice of my then lute teacher how considered it good enough for a start), and a better Renaissance lute on occasion. I am an amateur, that's maybe the first thing to say. Having played the guitar for long I got interested in the lute because I listened to Dowland and other Renaissance music on the lute and loved the intense and rough sound much more than my (by the way: very good) guitar's, then studied the lute for a while (with my fingernails cut). Coming across the liuto forte I realized that, first of all, it is extremely flexible in sound. It can actually sound more lute-like and more guitar-like, dependent on where and how you pluck it (I would be interested if the people who say the liuto forte simply sounds like a guitar and that's it would insist on this impression in light of having realized that flexibility, which may need some practice and experimentation). I felt that if I plucked with fingerpads (thumb inside technique) above the rosette, the sound was quite lute-like, but more singing and sustaining than on my renaissance lute. I immediately loved that sound with renaissance pieces (more than when played on on the guitar, and more than when played on the "real" lute :-). As I have no ambition to be particularly original I went (and go) with my naive impression and love. Apart from this the liuto forte was easier to play - and I did not need to cut my finger nails, as simply turning the fingers adequately made possible to use finger pads. To love this sound is surely a matter of taste - and I am of course always open to my taste being better eductated... :-) Sor etc. also sounded good with this finger pad technique (modified it a little). Thus, more generally, sounding good with finger pads (in contrast to my classical guitar) is one of the really good things with the liuto forte. . Of course you can play it with finger nails as well... So, if I visit friends etc. and want to take only one instrument with me, I often choose the liuto forte, as I can - play Renaissance pieces with a quite lute-like sound, with finger pads or fingernails (even alternate according to my liking) - can play it as a normal guitar as well if I like, (piano, but and it can also be really loud if this should be of importance) - could play it as a 9-string guitar (if I could resp. had finally discovered how to get suitable sheet music) There's obviously no reason to "defend" the liuto forte, but for my amateurish purposes, I love it, first, because of its flexibility, and also because of the finger pad sound with renaissance etc. pieces. Warm regards, and thanks for the great experience with your contributions Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Well, there's Jewish tradition in between. Rich musical temple services are described in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Arakhin. Levites playing all kinds of kinnorim (lyres), nevalim (harps), khatzotzerot (trumpets), khalilim (flutes), tuppim (drum) and many others. The reason why these instruments aren't allowed in orthodox congregations today is that that kind of service belonged to the temple which was destroyed in 70 CE and had no double. I haven't heard about the carrying an instrument violates the Sabbath argument, but it may be so. Quite a bit of Jewish musical tradition was preserved in the early Christian congregation of Rome, which had sprung out of the Jewish congregation. A core group of the new Christian group was formed by Levites. Mathias "howard posner" schrieb: > Sorry, left out a sentence, rendering the message rather obscure. > > On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, howard posner wrote: > > > Christian practice derives in large part from post-Temple Jewish > > practice, in which, traditionally, instruments are forbidden in > > services. Alexander points out that there are Biblical references to > > instruments in the Temple, and indeed, Psalm 150, with its references > > to instruments (including nevel and kinnor, both of which are > > sometimes translated as "lyre" or "lute"), is a common part of modern > > Sabbath morning services. > > Left out: But in traditional congregations, the psalm, like > everything else, is sung without instruments. > > > The reasons given for it vary: some say > > it's because we're still in mourning over the destruction of the > > Temple, others that playing (or tuning, or carrying) instruments > > violates the Sabbath. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
At players' meetings, I try to make players of HIP lutes (of several kinds), acoustic guitars (of several kinds), and wandervogel lutes (of several kinds) mingle in playing from a modern score, e. g. dances from Susato, each one playing a single-line part. One of the resulting effects that I aim at is that everybody accepts and appreciates the others as remote cousins of the same family. Besides, this kind of orchestra yields a lovely sound. We've never had luiti forti joining so far, but if one attends, he or she will be warmly welcomed. The LF is attractive for guitarists who don't want to change their RH technique (including nails). What I critisize, though, is the misguiding pretention that LiFi in lute tunings are modernized lutes, or that they are just as good as, or might replace, HIP lutes. What is modern with LF is that they have more volume, are easy to tune and easy to be kept in tune, particularly when single strung. What they lack, though, is the far-reaching tone of HIP lutes, and the rich sound of double courses over thin soundboards. To make a long story short, LiFi and HIP lutes are simply different animals. But there's no reason to deprecate each other. Mathias "Daniel Winheld" schrieb: > You mean Chaconne a son mauvais gout. > > >Ever played the Chaconne a Son Gout? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]
Wonderful performance, the integration of the Passamezze is ingenious... Keep up the good work, wish you both good health and pasttime with good company in 2010 we Ron Andrico schrieb: To All: After spending insane hours dedicated to house-building in a mad attempt to beat the snow and frozen ground, and the usual spate of December gigs, we took the time to make a new video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT4PLrF0utc This is a performance of Mignonne allons voir si la rose from the poetry of Pierre Ronsard, also recorded on our CD Divine Amarillis. The original is found only as a single melody line in Jehan Chardavoine's _Recueil de chansons en forme de voix de ville_ (1576). The engaging melody has often been performed with a drone, unison doubling or simple arpeggio accompaniment. In searching for a more interesting mode of performance, we looked to contemporary settings of Ronsard's poetry, and in particular, settings by Adrian Le Roy. We discovered that the tune works with only minor adjustments to Le Roy's Passemeze harmonization and, since LeRoy set several other poems by Ronsard in a similar manner, we feel our setting is historically justifiable. Happy Christmas to all. Ron & Donna [1]www.mignarda.com __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [2]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://www.mignarda.com/ 2. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Situation Report - Holiday Weather etc.
Hi David & all list members, December in the UK has been rather wet and windy from the south west. But last week, it changed round to the east. It must be really cold where Arto lives! Now it blows down from the north, (where Rob lives) which brought only a dusting of snow for us with a hard frost Saturday night. Today we awake to another frost, otherwise it is clear dry. Here in the East Midlands we seem to have escaped the worst of the snow that hit only 50 miles north and south of us. Friends in other parts are out with toboggans and building snowmen. We feel fortunate so far, not to have all that snow to drive around in. There is a big coal-fired power-station just 8 miles north of here at Ratcliffe on Trent, (Activists are trying to close it). We think the output from that does much 'To drive the cold winter away'...as you say. It is forecast to be much the same over Christmas, but more likely rain than snow. - We'll see. I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone on the list a very Happy Christmas. But you call it what you will and enjoy it. Best Wishes Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
