[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Isn't happy existentialist an oxymoron? Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 1:25 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning Thanks, Arto. I'm glad to know there are other happy existentialists out there, riffing on the absurdity of it all. Ron Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:35:41 +0300 To: praelu...@hotmail.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning Ron, I love your comment on this subject! :-) Arto On 25/06/12 16:13, Ron Andrico wrote: I have to say, I'm always amused by these discussions that broadly outline the imprint of theoretical measurements on the phenomenon of sound. If we look at all the factors, including thickness and stiffness of string material, variability in trueness of dimension, interference of temperature and humidity (and probably barometric pressure) on the transmission of sound, proximate acoustical deflections, damping caused by skin oils, distortion caused by finger pressure, variability caused by thickness of fret material, wave interference from nut, bridge, soundboard materials, etc. Then there is the phenomenon that different ears hear the pitch differently. Where do we stop? I say train your ears and tune to the best of your ability. RA Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:24:40 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM,willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butlerakbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5104 - Release Date: 07/01/12
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Is this the Doppler effect or the dopplich effect?? Is the Doppler effect what happens when you pitch a theorbo end over end? Leonard On 7/1/12 5:05 PM, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Jul 1, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Is the Doppler effect what happens when you pitch a theorbo end over end? Pitching a theorbo end over end is an ahistorical practice because it's possible only with a toy theorbo. Maybe Randy Johnson could pitch a theorbo that way... Is it the Droppler effect if the strap comes undone? Technically yes, but unless you're standing on the edge of a third-story balcony when it happens, the effect is too transitory to be of musical significance Is it undone if it's rare? I'm not sure, but I know it's not well done if it's rare. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Ron, I love your comment on this subject! :-) Arto On 25/06/12 16:13, Ron Andrico wrote: I have to say, I'm always amused by these discussions that broadly outline the imprint of theoretical measurements on the phenomenon of sound. If we look at all the factors, including thickness and stiffness of string material, variability in trueness of dimension, interference of temperature and humidity (and probably barometric pressure) on the transmission of sound, proximate acoustical deflections, damping caused by skin oils, distortion caused by finger pressure, variability caused by thickness of fret material, wave interference from nut, bridge, soundboard materials, etc. Then there is the phenomenon that different ears hear the pitch differently. Where do we stop? I say train your ears and tune to the best of your ability. RA Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:24:40 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM,willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butlerakbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Thanks, Arto. I'm glad to know there are other happy existentialists out there, riffing on the absurdity of it all. Ron Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:35:41 +0300 To: praelu...@hotmail.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning Ron, I love your comment on this subject! :-) Arto On 25/06/12 16:13, Ron Andrico wrote: I have to say, I'm always amused by these discussions that broadly outline the imprint of theoretical measurements on the phenomenon of sound. If we look at all the factors, including thickness and stiffness of string material, variability in trueness of dimension, interference of temperature and humidity (and probably barometric pressure) on the transmission of sound, proximate acoustical deflections, damping caused by skin oils, distortion caused by finger pressure, variability caused by thickness of fret material, wave interference from nut, bridge, soundboard materials, etc. Then there is the phenomenon that different ears hear the pitch differently. Where do we stop? I say train your ears and tune to the best of your ability. RA Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:24:40 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM,willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butlerakbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
On Jul 1, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Thanks, Arto. I'm glad to know there are other happy existentialists out there, riffing on the absurdity of it all. Well, one person's absurdity is another's physical science. When I do stroll gigs, I've found that if I stroll too fast the Doppler effect wreaks havoc with my pitch. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Is the Doppler effect what happens when you pitch a theorbo end over end? Is it the Droppler effect if the strap comes undone? Is it undone if it's rare? Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 13:37:37 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning On Jul 1, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Thanks, Arto. I'm glad to know there are other happy existentialists out there, riffing on the absurdity of it all. Well, one person's absurdity is another's physical science. When I do stroll gigs, I've found that if I stroll too fast the Doppler effect wreaks havoc with my pitch. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
On Jul 1, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Is the Doppler effect what happens when you pitch a theorbo end over end? Pitching a theorbo end over end is an ahistorical practice because it's possible only with a toy theorbo. Maybe Randy Johnson could pitch a theorbo that way... Is it the Droppler effect if the strap comes undone? Technically yes, but unless you're standing on the edge of a third-story balcony when it happens, the effect is too transitory to be of musical significance Is it undone if it's rare? I'm not sure, but I know it's not well done if it's rare. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
As we said many times when I was in college, pluck it! T Ron, I love your comment on this subject! :-) Arto On 25/06/12 16:13, Ron Andrico wrote: I have to say, I'm always amused by these discussions that broadly outline the imprint of theoretical measurements on the phenomenon of sound. If we look at all the factors, including thickness and stiffness of string material, variability in trueness of dimension, interference of temperature and humidity (and probably barometric pressure) on the transmission of sound, proximate acoustical deflections, damping caused by skin oils, distortion caused by finger pressure, variability caused by thickness of fret material, wave interference from nut, bridge, soundboard materials, etc. Then there is the phenomenon that different ears hear the pitch differently. Where do we stop? I say train your ears and tune to the best of your ability. RA Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:24:40 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM,willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butlerakbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
William Brohinsky wrote: When intentionally tuning a cello to perfect fifths, use the octave harmonic (divides the string in half) on the upper string, and the 'third' harmonic, i.e., the one that divides the lower string in thirds. Just for the sake of interest. Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, more so for higher harmonics. So, the equivalent method on lute of tuning a 4th by matching the 5th fret harmonic on the lower string with the 7th fret harmonic on the one above won't yield a perfect interval. ..but whether the result is playable, I don't know. andy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:55:50 To: Lutelist Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM, willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:55:50 To: Lutelist Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM, willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Wow. awful lot of theory vs. practice here, and apparently the practice isn't all that clean. The topic was admitted from the first to be 'off topic': bowed strings, not plucked (i.e., cello.) Stretched partials do indeed happen, most famous in pianos. There, the very short length and high tension as the strings go up the keyboard requires setting the middle/bearing octave to/near concert pitch, then sharpening fundamentals (to match the stretched partials of lower notes) as you go up and lowering fundamentals (so their stretched partials match higher fundamentals) as you go down. However, no one is trying to finger these strings (I pity da foo!) and the relation to guitars and especially lutes is pretty much...a stretch. I've been tuning my guitars and basses with harmonics for years. The stretch has never caused a problem, where as having straight-across nut, bridge and frets has. There are many more things to worry about with frettted instruments than whether the strings are tuned better than 2 cents. There are designs which deal with this, but as the professionals know, those frets aren't the law, they're just a good idea. Everyone who plays in tune is doing something other than tuning the open strings to an electronic tuner and pushing strings to touch frets like a push-button chord organ. For cellos (and other unfretted instruments) there is no problem at all, once the strings are set where the player desires them to be: If the D string isn't in tune in the chord, play a fingered D on the G string and put your finger where it is in tune. period. When I was in High School, the better players were all running around saying Never play open strings. Two sides to every story? No, a spectrum of aspects, related to each other in complicated but sometimes baffling ways. However, for bowed strings, with reasonably long string length compared to density and tension (like a cello) it is unlikely that the harmonic stretch will be large enough to qualify strings tuned using the fifth-octave method as out-of-tune. If and when I have time, I'll take a stab at quantifying this. william On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 4:12 AM, Philip Brown phi...@brown.cx wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM, willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:55:50 To: Lutelist Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Sorry, Philip. I was going to get here, and was interrupted by a colleague. The idea of playing harmonics on bowed string instruments includes using a very light touch (hence, not squashing finger meat all over the string) and finding the point as you bow that the harmonic sounds best. That is usually enough to eliminate errors by reducing the string length at the touch point. william On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 4:12 AM, Philip Brown phi...@brown.cx wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM, willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:55:50 To: Lutelist Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
I have to say, I'm always amused by these discussions that broadly outline the imprint of theoretical measurements on the phenomenon of sound. If we look at all the factors, including thickness and stiffness of string material, variability in trueness of dimension, interference of temperature and humidity (and probably barometric pressure) on the transmission of sound, proximate acoustical deflections, damping caused by skin oils, distortion caused by finger pressure, variability caused by thickness of fret material, wave interference from nut, bridge, soundboard materials, etc. Then there is the phenomenon that different ears hear the pitch differently. Where do we stop? I say train your ears and tune to the best of your ability. RA Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:24:40 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM, willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. Bill On 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Back in the '70s I remember reading in a book about historical tuning theory that, at least according to that author (whose name I can't recall), people in all likelihood used theories like Just Intonation and Meantone as a starting point, then adjusted things until they sounded good to them. Since there is no such thing as a perfect string generating a perfect overtone series, this makes perfect sense to me. I'm loving reading this discussion, though. My college Theory professor said, If it sounds good, it's good. She was referring to composition, but the same can be said for tuning. Tom I have to say, I'm always amused by these discussions that broadly outline the imprint of theoretical measurements on the phenomenon of sound. If we look at all the factors, including thickness and stiffness of string material, variability in trueness of dimension, interference of temperature and humidity (and probably barometric pressure) on the transmission of sound, proximate acoustical deflections, damping caused by skin oils, distortion caused by finger pressure, variability caused by thickness of fret material, wave interference from nut, bridge, soundboard materials, etc. Then there is the phenomenon that different ears hear the pitch differently. Where do we stop? I say train your ears and tune to the best of your ability. RA Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:24:40 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning with apologies to those who aren't interested ;-) For a plucked instrument the finger on the node is removed from the string just after the pluck. (otherwise the sound is damped) Indeed, having sharp harmonics is a property of all strings outside the physics lesson, as any piano tuner knows. Also, if you use an oscilloscope to view the waveform, and hit the harmonic partially so that some of the fundamental also sounds, you can see the waveform of the harmonic moving against that of the fundamental. For a bowed instrument, I suspect the harmonics are in tune as long as the bow is driving the string. andy Philip Brown wrote: That may be true, but a more obvious cause would be that the total length of vibrating string is reduced by the width of the area of contact of the finger. Cheers Philip Brown On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:00 AM, willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: They would be for a perfectly thin flexible string - but string stiffness sharpens the higher harmonics. BillOn 25 June 2012 09:39, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Harmonics on a plucked string are a little bit sharp, Isn't it the case that harmonics are pure by definition? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Thank you William Brohinsky - and others - for your response. I have been tuning using the open strings fifths, but do remember a teacher years ago telling me that tuning using the octave harmonic is more precise. I'll try that method again. My Korg is a less high tech model; I may look into the models you mention, at least to expand my awareness of other tuning options. (Needless to say, tuning my cello is a treat compared to tuning my lutes - primarily because I don't have frets to be concerned about. But of course with the cello I'm always tuning each note that isn't an open string). -Ned On Jun 24, 2012, at 9:15 PM, William Brohinsky wrote: When intentionally tuning a cello to perfect fifths, use the octave harmonic (divides the string in half) on the upper string, and the 'third' harmonic, i.e., the one that divides the lower string in thirds. For tuning A against D, for instance, your little finger should touch the same point where you would normally finger the octave above the open A string while your thumb should lightly touch the D string where you normally play A. The former will sound the same pitch whether fingered or played as a harmonic, while the latter will sound the pitch an octave and a fifth above the open D string (which is the same A.) The nice thing about using the harmonics is that a) you don't have to have your finger in exactly the right place to get the harmonic and have it be on-pitch, and b) the harmonic sounds the single frequency (unless you way-overbow) rather than the rich-toned fingered pitch. You need that pure sine to get the least confusion about the beat. When you play these two harmonics together, they will beat unless the strings are tuned in a pure fifth relation. If you tune the open strings in the manner you have been doing and then test with the harmonics, you will find out very quickly if you are actually tuning pure or not. The Korg tuner has gone through a few revisions in the past years. Mine doesn't allow more than equal temperament (so I've had charts to adjust for various historical temperaments.) If the model you have is OT120 (Which is currently on sale for $70 from Musician's Friend and Sweetwater) then you can set historical tunings and temperaments, which gives more room for experimentation. Also, petersontuners.com is full of interesting information on tuning, and if you look in the manuals for various of their more expensive tuners may just give you some other tuning ideas. William Brohinsky On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com wrote: A question perhaps better posed on a bowed string forum, but I'm confident someone here can help me. When tuning my cello with a Korg chromatic electronic tuner, what pitches am I tuning to? Is it tempered tuning? The reason I ask is that though I usually tune the A string from the tuner and then the strings below by ear to fifths, if I tune each string from the tuner the results seem to be the same - still perfect fifths. Thanks. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
We would presume if you tune fifths by ear, you would tune them pure, but ... if you have listened to fifths in equal temperament long enough in your life, you might well unwittingly tune tempered fifths by ear. So much for conditioning. In equal temperament fifths are about 2 cents smaller than pure fifths (700 cents in stead of a perfect fifth of 702 cents). That comes close, so if your ears perceive them as the same, be happy with both your ears and your tuner and forget about the theory. Just for the fun of it, set your Korg to Pythagorean temperament and then check the fifths. In Pythagorean temperament fifths are pure. Does your Korg have a playback function? Maybe you can hear the difference. Although the two notes of an interval are best heard played together (harmonic interval) to listen to the beats they make, you can still try to hear the difference in melodic intervals. David On 24 June 2012 18:11, Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com wrote: A question perhaps better posed on a bowed string forum, but I'm confident someone here can help me. When tuning my cello with a Korg chromatic electronic tuner, what pitches am I tuning to? Is it tempered tuning? The reason I ask is that though I usually tune the A string from the tuner and then the strings below by ear to fifths, if I tune each string from the tuner the results seem to be the same - still perfect fifths. Thanks. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
Hi Ned, Pure fifths and equal-tempered fifths are pretty damn close to each other - slightly under 2 cents difference. I think the human ear - even of a good piano tuner - will have difficulty picking up this difference and will have to depend on beats to distinguish them. The perfect fourth is out by a similar amount. The real rogue interval is the minor third with over 15 cents difference and the major third only slightly less bad. So when tuning a lute - watch out for these thirds! Best regards, Bill From: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com To: Lutelist List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012, 17:11 Subject: [LUTE] Tuning A question perhaps better posed on a bowed string forum, but I'm confident someone here can help me. When tuning my cello with a Korg chromatic electronic tuner, what pitches am I tuning to? Is it tempered tuning? The reason I ask is that though I usually tune the A string from the tuner and then the strings below by ear to fifths, if I tune each string from the tuner the results seem to be the same - still perfect fifths. Thanks. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning
When intentionally tuning a cello to perfect fifths, use the octave harmonic (divides the string in half) on the upper string, and the 'third' harmonic, i.e., the one that divides the lower string in thirds. For tuning A against D, for instance, your little finger should touch the same point where you would normally finger the octave above the open A string while your thumb should lightly touch the D string where you normally play A. The former will sound the same pitch whether fingered or played as a harmonic, while the latter will sound the pitch an octave and a fifth above the open D string (which is the same A.) The nice thing about using the harmonics is that a) you don't have to have your finger in exactly the right place to get the harmonic and have it be on-pitch, and b) the harmonic sounds the single frequency (unless you way-overbow) rather than the rich-toned fingered pitch. You need that pure sine to get the least confusion about the beat. When you play these two harmonics together, they will beat unless the strings are tuned in a pure fifth relation. If you tune the open strings in the manner you have been doing and then test with the harmonics, you will find out very quickly if you are actually tuning pure or not. The Korg tuner has gone through a few revisions in the past years. Mine doesn't allow more than equal temperament (so I've had charts to adjust for various historical temperaments.) If the model you have is OT120 (Which is currently on sale for $70 from Musician's Friend and Sweetwater) then you can set historical tunings and temperaments, which gives more room for experimentation. Also, petersontuners.com is full of interesting information on tuning, and if you look in the manuals for various of their more expensive tuners may just give you some other tuning ideas. William Brohinsky On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com wrote: A question perhaps better posed on a bowed string forum, but I'm confident someone here can help me. When tuning my cello with a Korg chromatic electronic tuner, what pitches am I tuning to? Is it tempered tuning? The reason I ask is that though I usually tune the A string from the tuner and then the strings below by ear to fifths, if I tune each string from the tuner the results seem to be the same - still perfect fifths. Thanks. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used)? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
Hello to all! I can highly recommend AP-Tuner: http://www.aptuner.com/cgi-bin/aptuner/apmain.html Shareware, runs on windows and under wine. Can be configuered for any instrument, temperaments, calibrated, stretch table, transposing... All the best, Michael -Original Message- From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 00:45:47 -0800 (PST) This looks kind of cool [1]http://www.musicmasterworks.com/tuning_software.html __ From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, February 1, 2012 12:42:25 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? I recommend the horribly named android app GStrings. Mulititemperament multifunction with many programmable features. OK, it isn't windows, sorry. Sequoia has a built in tuner but I like the android app. Or a dedicated strobe. __ From: Ed Durbrow [2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com; LuteNet list [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 30, 2012 7:22:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? The tuner in Logic (OSX) seems pretty good. There is Tuna Pitch, app and widget, which I just tried and seems to work well, also Mac. On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:41 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1][1][5]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [2][2][6]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [3][3][7]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [4][8]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. [5][9]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. [6][10]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. [13]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. [14]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 4. [15]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 5. [16]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 6. [17]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 7. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.musicmasterworks.com/tuning_software.html 2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 6. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 7. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 8. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 9. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 10. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 13. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 14. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 15. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 16. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 17. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
Has anybody gotten this to work on Windows 7? It seems to run fine except that I can't get it to recognize any sound input. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com --- On Sat, 2/4/12, Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 4:19 PM WinTemper is pretty good: [1][1]http://wintemper.com/ Best, Sam On 29 January 2012 17:41, David van Ooijen [2][2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [3][3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. [5]http://wintemper.com/ 2. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:[7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [8]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://wintemper.com/ 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://wintemper.com/ 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
Talking of tuning software. Has anybody come across anything that will work on a Blackberry? Bill From: Craig Robert Pierpont crpierp...@yahoo.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2012, 18:16 Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? Has anybody gotten this to work on Windows 7? It seems to run fine except that I can't get it to recognize any sound input. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com --- On Sat, 2/4/12, Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? To: David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lutelist Net [4]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 4:19 PM WinTemper is pretty good: [1][1][5]http://wintemper.com/ Best, Sam On 29 January 2012 17:41, David van Ooijen [2][2][6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [3][3][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5][4][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. [5][9]http://wintemper.com/ 2. mailto:[6][10]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:[7][11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [8][12]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. [9][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [14]http://wintemper.com/ 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[15]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. [18]http://wintemper.com/ 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[19]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[20]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [21]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 2. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://wintemper.com/ 6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://wintemper.com/ 10. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 11. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 12. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. http://wintemper.com/ 15. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 16. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://wintemper.com/ 19. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 20. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 21. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
I have the same problem on vista but I'd always assumed that was just a problem with my computer. I tend to use it more for producing notes than picking up notes that I play into it. On 5 February 2012 19:16, Craig Robert Pierpont [1]crpierp...@yahoo.com wrote: Has anybody gotten this to work on Windows 7? It seems to run fine except that I can't get it to recognize any sound input. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie [2]www.anotherera.com --- On Sat, 2/4/12, Sam Chapman [3]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sam Chapman [4]manchap...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? To: David van Ooijen [5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lutelist Net [6]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 4:19 PM WinTemper is pretty good: [1][1][7]http://wintemper.com/ Best, Sam On 29 January 2012 17:41, David van Ooijen [2][2][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [3][3][9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4][10]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5][4][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. [5][12]http://wintemper.com/ 2. mailto:[6][13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:[7][14]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [8][15]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. [9][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [17]http://wintemper.com/ 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[18]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[19]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. [21]http://wintemper.com/ 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[22]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[23]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [24]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:crpierp...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.anotherera.com/ 3. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 4. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 5. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 6. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://wintemper.com/ 8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://wintemper.com/ 13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 15. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://wintemper.com/ 18. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 19. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 21. http://wintemper.com/ 22. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 23. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 24. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
WinTemper is pretty good: [1]http://wintemper.com/ Best, Sam On 29 January 2012 17:41, David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. http://wintemper.com/ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
I recommend the horribly named android app GStrings. Mulititemperament multifunction with many programmable features. OK, it isn't windows, sorry. Sequoia has a built in tuner but I like the android app. Or a dedicated strobe. __ From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com; LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 30, 2012 7:22:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? The tuner in Logic (OSX) seems pretty good. There is Tuna Pitch, app and widget, which I just tried and seems to work well, also Mac. On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:41 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [2][2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [3][3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [4]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. [5]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. [6]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 4. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 5. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 6. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
This looks kind of cool [1]http://www.musicmasterworks.com/tuning_software.html __ From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, February 1, 2012 12:42:25 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? I recommend the horribly named android app GStrings. Mulititemperament multifunction with many programmable features. OK, it isn't windows, sorry. Sequoia has a built in tuner but I like the android app. Or a dedicated strobe. __ From: Ed Durbrow [2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com; LuteNet list [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 30, 2012 7:22:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? The tuner in Logic (OSX) seems pretty good. There is Tuna Pitch, app and widget, which I just tried and seems to work well, also Mac. On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:41 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1][1][5]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [2][2][6]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [3][3][7]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [4][8]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. [5][9]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. [6][10]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. [13]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. [14]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 4. [15]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 5. [16]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 6. [17]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 7. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.musicmasterworks.com/tuning_software.html 2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 6. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 7. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 8. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 9. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 10. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 13. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 14. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 15. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 16. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 17. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
On 1 February 2012 09:42, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I recommend the horribly named android app GStrings. Mulititemperament multifunction with many programmable features. Yep, I run it on my Archos too. Works well. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
The tuner in Logic (OSX) seems pretty good. There is Tuna Pitch, app and widget, which I just tried and seems to work well, also Mac. On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:41 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
Hello, In my opinion this is the best software on the market at an acceptable price: OT 120 Korg; I tune my baroque lute in 3 minutes with it... [01.gif] [1]http://www.korg.com/OT120 Caius --- On Sun, 1/29/12, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] tuning software? To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, January 29, 2012, 6:41 PM It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.korg.com/OT120 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
Dear David, For Mac: Strobe tuner Copyright © 2005-2007 Katsura Shareware. It works on Mac OSX 10.6.8. And as an iPhone applet: Cleartune. All the best, Andreas PS: Time Machine for Mac is a clever solution for backups ;-) Am 29.01.2012 um 17:41 schrieb David van Ooijen: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
I use Strobe Tuner 1.6 from Katsura Shareware. $15. (It's good on a Mac back to 10.3.9 --which is my Mac/Windows/Fronimo machine.) I more often use the Cleartune on an ipod touch since it's easier to hold w/ a lute in my hand and does pretty much all the same things. The Cleartune also has the ability to set a scale from any played note, too. (I.e., If someone gives you This is what we're calling an A but I can't tell you the hertz.) Sean (shorter answer: ditto Andreas. I'm a slow typer.) On Jan 29, 2012, at 8:41 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
I second Cleartune for Iphone or Android. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:42 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] tuning software? It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Eeeew. - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:40 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu When did they change from gut saws? On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:49 PM, EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: Alright, traveling more and more remotely to the original discussion, but Crumb is wacky. I think it's interesting that Ancient Voices... makes such frequent appearances in music appreciation and history courses in North America just because it is so wacky. I don't know if other sonorists serve as more frequent examples off the continent. I've actually performed Ancient Voices... several times. It calls for a pianist to play toy piano, boy soprano singing softly off stage or singing directly into the frame of a piano, all performers periodically shouting, etc. In addition to mandolin (with one string of each course detuned 1/4 step and sometimes played bottleneck style with a slide), the mandolinist is called upon to play the musical saw with a cello bow. One mandolinist friend complained about cutting himself in prepping for a performance. Another mandolinist friend retorted I have a bit of advice. Play the side without the teeth! Personally, I don't believe I ever got close to the pitches notated for saw. The best I could do is generally follow the melody up or down. Bowed saw isn't much like any lutey kin. Eugene - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:43 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu Eugene, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: In the song cycle Ancient Voices of Children, George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material: plastics, tortoiseshell, etc. His intent was to generate as sharply metallic a sound as possible. Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special effects. In Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death, he calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the percussionist to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the acoustic bass with soft mallets. At various points, all of the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and shout. The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw harp. At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, creating sympathetic resonance. The pianist also doubles on amplified harpsichord. I performed this piece a few times. Quite a lot of fun. There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers active after WWII that make much use of similar effects. The label that has been applied to them is sonorist. Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I teach, is an expert in the study of these composers. Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
I agree with Chris, it is surprising that with their interest in timbre-structures Schoenberg and followers apparently made no remarks on such a major timbre change as that caused by moving from gut to metal strings; although, Klangfarbenmelodie seems to have been a technique for fracturing the melody by distributing it to several instruments, which is said to result in a sort of pointilliste structuring (or destructuring) intended to add tonal colour and texturing; but perhaps the detailed colour of each instrument-type used, might interest these theoreticians rather less than it would us. Perhaps this (as implied by Howard) they would leave to the interprets. % In fact, do any contemporary composers give explicit instructions for using a particular string type (or even instrument material : brass/silver/gold, reed-type, etc) in order to achieve a particular tonal colour? I believe even modern strings vary considerably, in terms of colour. Therefore in the search for a particular timbre, such indications would seem plausible to historic perfomers who are so conscious of the search for subtle instrument colouration to capture the sounds prevalent at a particular period (as Howard, also seems to imply). Perhaps, the notion of the universal tends to win out over the particular timbral colour in the mind of a modern composer who hopes for his music to survive him, in spite of future tonal changes to instruments or pitch. % While it may be true that the music of certain composers whose music is as textural as it is melodically structured can surely benefit from using the instruments and the pitch, the composer had in mind while creating a work; the composer himself may just be working with the available materials, and not therefore see it as the choice it now is to us, when we have to decide on what strings or instruments to perform this composer's work. % This in no way takes away from the historical approach of a Mark Minkowski, who through the use of gut stringing (and possibly a lower diapason than 440) and period brass instruments, gave us a refreshing in sight into how Stravinsky's music might possibly have sounded at the time of the creation of Pulcinella, even if Stravinsky himself gave no indication that it should only be played that way. Furthermore, by including Pergolesi's Stabat Mater in the same programme (also on period instruments), he was able to underline the similarities and differences with italian Baroque period music from which apparently Pulcinella was inspired. % Nevertheless, MM also played this programme in London at the Barbican centre with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and I see no indication in the reports on this performance that this orchestra used gut strings for either piece. http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2010/Jan-Jun10/Pergolesi_Stravinsky_0603.htm Although, the critical remarks in the article above, show that other aspects of MM's historical approach were carried over into this perfomance in London. % Thanks for these thought prevoking remarks, Howard and Chris. Anthony On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: I find the area of performance practice in the early 20th century to be extremely fascinating. There were a lot of changes that effected the quality of instrumental timbre, but they seem to have happened with little complaint or fanfare. You would think that composers like Schoenberg and his followers, concerned as they were with Klangfarbenmelodie, would have had something to say about gut versus metal strings or the difference in brilliance between low vs. high pitch, but I can't think of a single utterance. The Second Viennese school composers orchestrated in an extremely specific manner in regards to timbre, (see Webern's orchestration of Bach's ricercar from Bach's Musikalische Opfer) but the change over from gut to metal seems not to have concerned them. I don't perceive a difference in how they orchestrated even though their works straddle the periods. Where is the pining for the good, warm tone of gut or the celebration at the new brilliance of metal? Performances of their music were rare in those days, so the issue of performance practice alternatives would not have loomed large. And with the exception of the modern early music movement, I can't think of many places and times when we know that pitch was a matter of choice and subject to discussion. Pitch was established by local practice (I don't believe there were different pitches among players in Vienna in, say, 1910), and you wouldn't expect players to retune their pianos or buy a different clarinet to accommodate a different pitch. Not for playing music that was likely to draw ridicule or start a riot, anyway. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Howard, --- On Sun, 1/8/12, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Performances of their music were rare in those days, so the issue of performance practice alternatives would not have loomed large. And with the exception of the modern early music movement, I can't think of many places and times when we know that pitch was a matter of choice and subject to discussion. Pitch was established by local practice (I don't believe there were different pitches among players in Vienna in, say, 1910), and you wouldn't expect players to retune their pianos or buy a different clarinet to accommodate a different pitch. Not for playing music that was likely to draw ridicule or start a riot, anyway. OK, I used the Second Viennese School composers as an example due to the particular concern they had with timbre at a minute level. The issue could just as easily been voiced by Strauss, Mahler, Debussy, Ravel or others. Around the turn of the century, many composers began to focus increased attention on tone color as a compositional element. Yet, just as timbre was playing an increased role in their compositions, there are no comments from any of these guys about the considerable changes taking place in this element during their lifetimes. I'm still curious as to why no one seems to have had anything to say about this at the time. I have a hunch that perhaps they didn't perceive the changes to be as considerable as we do. Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Interesting topic. This is maybe a bit facile, but I believe that the sound produced has a lot more to do with the musician than it does with the particular instrument or string material. OK an authentic gut-strung violin will no doubt feel better to somebody who wants to produce an authentic sound, but that same musician will probably be able to produce a very similar sound on a violin with modern setup and metal strings. So I wonder if the sound produced by an orchestra, at the time the changes were taking place, changed overnight? I suspect the old orchestral sound gradually changed to a modern orchestral sound as people became familiar with what they could do on the new instruments. Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Regarding: In fact, do any contemporary composers give explicit instructions for using a particular string type (or even instrument material : brass/silver/gold, reed-type, etc) in order to achieve a particular tonal colour? I am aware of one at least similar case. In the song cycle Ancient Voices of Children, George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material: plastics, tortoiseshell, etc. His intent was to generate as sharply metallic a sound as possible. However, if anything, the rounded ends of a paper clip and its relatively soft brand of metal (whatever it is) is less bright in timbre than most relatively stiff plectra that were actually made for the purpose of playing mandolins. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:34 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I agree with Chris, it is surprising that with their interest in timbre-structures Schoenberg and followers apparently made no remarks on such a major timbre change as that caused by moving from gut to metal strings; although, Klangfarbenmelodie seems to have been a technique for fracturing the melody by distributing it to several instruments, which is said to result in a sort of pointilliste structuring (or destructuring) intended to add tonal colour and texturing; but perhaps the detailed colour of each instrument-type used, might interest these theoreticians rather less than it would us. Perhaps this (as implied by Howard) they would leave to the interprets. % In fact, do any contemporary composers give explicit instructions for using a particular string type (or even instrument material : brass/silver/gold, reed-type, etc) in order to achieve a particular tonal colour? I believe even modern strings vary considerably, in terms of colour. Therefore in the search for a particular timbre, such indications would seem plausible to historic perfomers who are so conscious of the search for subtle instrument colouration to capture the sounds prevalent at a particular period (as Howard, also seems to imply). Perhaps, the notion of the universal tends to win out over the particular timbral colour in the mind of a modern composer who hopes for his music to survive him, in spite of future tonal changes to instruments or pitch. % While it may be true that the music of certain composers whose music is as textural as it is melodically structured can surely benefit from using the instruments and the pitch, the composer had in mind while creating a work; the composer himself may just be working with the available materials, and not therefore see it as the choice it now is to us, when we have to decide on what strings or instruments to perform this composer's work. % This in no way takes away from the historical approach of a Mark Minkowski, who through the use of gut stringing (and possibly a lower diapason than 440) and period brass instruments, gave us a refreshing in sight into how Stravinsky's music might possibly have sounded at the time of the creation of Pulcinella, even if Stravinsky himself gave no indication that it should only be played that way. Furthermore, by including Pergolesi's Stabat Mater in the same programme (also on period instruments), he was able to underline the similarities and differences with italian Baroque period music from which apparently Pulcinella was inspired. % Nevertheless, MM also played this programme in London at the Barbican centre with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and I see no indication in the reports on this performance that this orchestra used gut strings for either piece. http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2010/Jan- Jun10/Pergolesi_Stravinsky_0603.htm Although, the critical remarks in the article above, show that other aspects of MM's historical approach were carried over into this perfomance in London. % Thanks for these thought prevoking remarks, Howard and Chris. Anthony On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: I find the area of performance practice in the early 20th century to be extremely fascinating. There were a lot of changes that effected the quality of instrumental timbre, but they seem to have happened with little complaint or fanfare. You would think that composers like Schoenberg and his followers, concerned as they were with Klangfarbenmelodie, would have had something to say about gut versus metal strings or the difference in brilliance between low vs. high pitch, but I can't think
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 10, 2012, at 4:21 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: OK, I used the Second Viennese School composers as an example due to the particular concern they had with timbre at a minute level. The issue could just as easily been voiced by Strauss, Mahler, Debussy, Ravel or others. Around the turn of the century, many composers began to focus increased attention on tone color as a compositional element. Yet, just as timbre was playing an increased role in their compositions, there are no comments from any of these guys about the considerable changes taking place in this element during their lifetimes. I'm still curious as to why no one seems to have had anything to say about this at the time. Have you read Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration? It comes from precisely this period. (You can find English versions online) I have a hunch that perhaps they didn't perceive the changes to be as considerable as we do. From their point of view, it may have seemed a time of unprecedented organological stability. They could remember when chin rests and valve trumpets were newfangled, many orchestras still had ophicleides, and valved horns were controversial. There is always a tendency to think of whatever's happening now as the final stage of evolution. Sometimes changes in sound aren't perceived that way. Rimsky-Korsakov, for example, wrote that Beethoven's music abounds in countless leonine leaps of orchestral imagination, but his technique, viewed in detail, remains much inferior to his titanic conception. He complains of overly prominent trumpets and difficult intervals for the horns. Mahler went a step further and reorchestrated Beethoven's symphonies. Did it occur to either of them that the problem was not Beethoven, but changes in instruments and the size of orchestras? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Howard, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Have you read Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration? It comes from precisely this period. (You can find English versions online) I've read portions of it, but it's quite a large document to browse through. Relevant to the topic of this discussion: What does he have to say about the relative merits and defects of gut vs. steel strings during the period of transition? Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:21:18 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote Howard, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Have you read Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration? It comes from precisely this period. (You can find English versions online) I've read portions of it, but it's quite a large document to browse through. Relevant to the topic of this discussion: What does he have to say about the relative merits and defects of gut vs. steel strings during the period of transition? He died in 1908 - that's pretty much before the general shift to metal strings on bowed instruments. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Eugene, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: In the song cycle Ancient Voices of Children, George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material: plastics, tortoiseshell, etc. His intent was to generate as sharply metallic a sound as possible. Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special effects. In Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death, he calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the percussionist to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the acoustic bass with soft mallets. At various points, all of the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and shout. The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw harp. At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, creating sympathetic resonance. The pianist also doubles on amplified harpsichord. I performed this piece a few times. Quite a lot of fun. There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers active after WWII that make much use of similar effects. The label that has been applied to them is sonorist. Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I teach, is an expert in the study of these composers. Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: I've read portions of it, More than I have, then. but it's quite a large document to browse through. Relevant to the topic of this discussion: What does he have to say about the relative merits and defects of gut vs. steel strings during the period of transition? Absolutely nothing, I can say with confidence because there are electronically searchable editions on the web. But the book was finished in 1912, four years after RK died. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Did his ghost finish it for him RT From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: I've read portions of it, More than I have, then. but it's quite a large document to browse through. Relevant to the topic of this discussion: What does he have to say about the relative merits and defects of gut vs. steel strings during the period of transition? Absolutely nothing, I can say with confidence because there are electronically searchable editions on the web. But the book was finished in 1912, four years after RK died. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
--- On Tue, 1/10/12, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: He died in 1908 - that's pretty much before the general shift to metal strings on bowed instruments. I thought it seemed a bit early for Rimsky-Korsakov to be discussing steel strings in much depth. Does he discuss the tone of metal strings anywhere, perhaps even a remark noting them as a new novelty? Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: I thought it seemed a bit early for Rimsky-Korsakov to be discussing steel strings in much depth. Does he discuss the tone of metal strings anywhere, perhaps even a remark noting them as a new novelty? Metal and steel are mentioned only regarding percussion instruments or the celeste. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote of Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration: Did his ghost finish it for him RT. Of course. Rimsky-Korsakov was like most musicians. On the whole, they don't write well, so they make much use of ghost writers. The name you're looking for here is Maximillian Steinberg. BTW, the book doesn't seem to have been published in Russian until 1922. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Hmmm, what about those musicians who write rather well, in many languages, including dead ones? Like Carl Orff. Or the mustitude of songwriters RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:00 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote of Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration: Did his ghost finish it for him RT. Of course. Rimsky-Korsakov was like most musicians. On the whole, they don't write well, so they make much use of ghost writers. The name you're looking for here is Maximillian Steinberg. BTW, the book doesn't seem to have been published in Russian until 1922. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Hmmm, what about those musicians who write rather well, in many languages, including dead ones? You have to have a ghost writer if you're going to write in a dead language. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
as I recall Orff wrote masterfully in ancient Greek and Latin, without being dead. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Hmmm, what about those musicians who write rather well, in many languages, including dead ones? You have to have a ghost writer if you're going to write in a dead language. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Didn't Orff wish to be a nationalistic early music composer, too? Arto On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:18:30 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: as I recall Orff wrote masterfully in ancient Greek and Latin, without being dead. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Hmmm, what about those musicians who write rather well, in many languages, including dead ones? You have to have a ghost writer if you're going to write in a dead language. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Alright, traveling more and more remotely to the original discussion, but Crumb is wacky. I think it's interesting that Ancient Voices... makes such frequent appearances in music appreciation and history courses in North America just because it is so wacky. I don't know if other sonorists serve as more frequent examples off the continent. I've actually performed Ancient Voices... several times. It calls for a pianist to play toy piano, boy soprano singing softly off stage or singing directly into the frame of a piano, all performers periodically shouting, etc. In addition to mandolin (with one string of each course detuned 1/4 step and sometimes played bottleneck style with a slide), the mandolinist is called upon to play the musical saw with a cello bow. One mandolinist friend complained about cutting himself in prepping for a performance. Another mandolinist friend retorted I have a bit of advice. Play the side without the teeth! Personally, I don't believe I ever got close to the pitches notated for saw. The best I could do is generally follow the melody up or down. Bowed saw isn't much like any lutey kin. Eugene - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:43 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu Eugene, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: In the song cycle Ancient Voices of Children, George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material: plastics, tortoiseshell, etc. His intent was to generate as sharply metallic a sound as possible. Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special effects. In Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death, he calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the percussionist to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the acoustic bass with soft mallets. At various points, all of the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and shout. The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw harp. At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, creating sympathetic resonance. The pianist also doubles on amplified harpsichord. I performed this piece a few times. Quite a lot of fun. There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers active after WWII that make much use of similar effects. The label that has been applied to them is sonorist. Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I teach, is an expert in the study of these composers. Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
When did they change from gut saws? On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:49 PM, EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: Alright, traveling more and more remotely to the original discussion, but Crumb is wacky. I think it's interesting that Ancient Voices... makes such frequent appearances in music appreciation and history courses in North America just because it is so wacky. I don't know if other sonorists serve as more frequent examples off the continent. I've actually performed Ancient Voices... several times. It calls for a pianist to play toy piano, boy soprano singing softly off stage or singing directly into the frame of a piano, all performers periodically shouting, etc. In addition to mandolin (with one string of each course detuned 1/4 step and sometimes played bottleneck style with a slide), the mandolinist is called upon to play the musical saw with a cello bow. One mandolinist friend complained about cutting himself in prepping for a performance. Another mandolinist friend retorted I have a bit of advice. Play the side without the teeth! Personally, I don't believe I ever got close to the pitches notated for saw. The best I could do is generally follow the melody up or down. Bowed saw isn't much like any lutey kin. Eugene - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:43 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu Eugene, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: In the song cycle Ancient Voices of Children, George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material: plastics, tortoiseshell, etc. His intent was to generate as sharply metallic a sound as possible. Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special effects. In Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death, he calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the percussionist to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the acoustic bass with soft mallets. At various points, all of the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and shout. The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw harp. At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, creating sympathetic resonance. The pianist also doubles on amplified harpsichord. I performed this piece a few times. Quite a lot of fun. There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers active after WWII that make much use of similar effects. The label that has been applied to them is sonorist. Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I teach, is an expert in the study of these composers. Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On a slightly more serious note, the Strad Magazine ( http://strad.cozio.com/ ) has archives that go back to 1890. I wasn't quite ready at 10:30 pm PST ( 1/2 bottle of cheap Zin under my belt) to register with them, log in, and then do a search- but maybe there are some answers there. More tomorrow, I hope Dan On Jan 10, 2012, at 9:40 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: When did they change from gut saws? On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:49 PM, EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: Alright, traveling more and more remotely to the original discussion, but Crumb is wacky. I think it's interesting that Ancient Voices... makes such frequent appearances in music appreciation and history courses in North America just because it is so wacky. I don't know if other sonorists serve as more frequent examples off the continent. I've actually performed Ancient Voices... several times. It calls for a pianist to play toy piano, boy soprano singing softly off stage or singing directly into the frame of a piano, all performers periodically shouting, etc. In addition to mandolin (with one string of each course detuned 1/4 step and sometimes played bottleneck style with a slide), the mandolinist is called upon to play the musical saw with a cello bow. One mandolinist friend complained about cutting himself in prepping for a performance. Another mandolinist friend retorted I have a bit of advice. Play the side without the teeth! Personally, I don't believe I ever got close to the pitches notated for saw. The best I could do is generally follow the melody up or down. Bowed saw isn't much like any lutey kin. Eugene - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:43 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu Eugene, --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: In the song cycle Ancient Voices of Children, George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material: plastics, tortoiseshell, etc. His intent was to generate as sharply metallic a sound as possible. Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special effects. In Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death, he calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the percussionist to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the acoustic bass with soft mallets. At various points, all of the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and shout. The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw harp. At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, creating sympathetic resonance. The pianist also doubles on amplified harpsichord. I performed this piece a few times. Quite a lot of fun. There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers active after WWII that make much use of similar effects. The label that has been applied to them is sonorist. Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I teach, is an expert in the study of these composers. Chris Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Anthony, I find the area of performance practice in the early 20th century to be extremely fascinating. There were a lot of changes that effected the quality of instrumental timbre, but they seem to have happened with little complaint or fanfare. You would think that composers like Schoenberg and his followers, concerned as they were with Klangfarbenmelodie, would have had something to say about gut versus metal strings or the difference in brilliance between low vs. high pitch, but I can't think of a single utterance. The Second Viennese school composers orchestrated in an extremely specific manner in regards to timbre, (see Webern's orchestration of Bach's ricercar from Bach's Musikalische Opfer) but the change over from gut to metal seems not to have concerned them. I don't perceive a difference in how they orchestrated even though their works straddle the periods. Where is the pining for the good, warm tone of gut or the celebration at the new brilliance of metal? And who on earth had the chops to play those angular guitar parts (written in bass and treble clefs at sounding pitch) in Webern and Schoenberg? Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Sat, 1/7/12, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? To: t...@heartistrymusic.com, e...@gamutstrings.com, howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, January 7, 2012, 8:58 AM Thank you all for your responses, and your detailed explanations, Tom. I agree that In fact, that's one reason pitch has risen over the past few hundred years - more string tension = higher volume and brighter sound. Even today some orchestras tune to 442 -444, to take advantage of this effect. and this search for brightness, also partly explains the change from gut strung instruments to metal strung ones (while of course the fragility of gut stringing might perhaps have kept pitch down to save string breakage). I recently heard a performance of Stravinsky's Pulcinella on period brass instruments and a gut strung bowed section by the Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble (Mark Minkowski director); MM argued that even in 1905 gut stringing was fairly standard. He did not say at which pitch they were playing, however, I presume it may have been at 433 Hz. The performance was in no way unsatisfactory, as the modern brightness was replaced by more harmonic texturing, coming both from the gut strings, and from the warmer but also rougher sounding period brass instruments. While the threads of the music remained exceptionally clear, as no instrument type seemed to be covering the other. In relation to tuning over high, I seem to remember that in an article on tuning, Gordon Gregory suggested that relaxed people tend to tune too low, while tense people would tend to tune too high (I certainly read that somewhere, but not certain it was in Gordon's article). However, this coincides well with my own experience, as I always tend to tune too high, if I tune by ear (I would certainly not classify myself as relaxed). Relative brightness would be associated with increased emotional tension, which by some, might be felt as somehow a more exciting sound. Tuning too high, as Ed says, does result in out-of-tuneness, but it can also be considered as an over-bright tonal aberration. In relation to this (and the above), it is recorded in many hifi sites that a change from over bright distorting resistors and capacitors to better noise performance ones, initially results in the hifi enthusiasts feeling that the sound is less exciting (something is missing), before they finally realize they are suffering less listener's fatigue (could be the same with the change to better mics). Perhaps a piece played at 433 may therefore somehow sound more relaxed (and just as interesting on harmonically rich period instruments), when compared to 440 on modern instruments (or period instruments that have been altered to support modern string tensions); although it would indeed seem difficult to explain why 433 might be the harmonic frequency of the universe. Ed's description of competitive tuning between violinists (presumably not gut strung), reminds me of a tale about a televised presidential debate between two candidates here in France. One of the contestants was rather short, and his advisers kept bringing in cushions to make him look taller, but of course those of his taller opponent, began reacting similarly, resulting in something of a Lewis Carrol moment for my friend who was organizing the filming. Back to Ed, how those Baroque Strads must have suffered over the years from
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: I find the area of performance practice in the early 20th century to be extremely fascinating. There were a lot of changes that effected the quality of instrumental timbre, but they seem to have happened with little complaint or fanfare. You would think that composers like Schoenberg and his followers, concerned as they were with Klangfarbenmelodie, would have had something to say about gut versus metal strings or the difference in brilliance between low vs. high pitch, but I can't think of a single utterance. The Second Viennese school composers orchestrated in an extremely specific manner in regards to timbre, (see Webern's orchestration of Bach's ricercar from Bach's Musikalische Opfer) but the change over from gut to metal seems not to have concerned them. I don't perceive a difference in how they orchestrated even though their works straddle the periods. Where is the pining for the good, warm tone of gut or the celebration at the new brilliance of metal? Performances of their music were rare in those days, so the issue of performance practice alternatives would not have loomed large. And with the exception of the modern early music movement, I can't think of many places and times when we know that pitch was a matter of choice and subject to discussion. Pitch was established by local practice (I don't believe there were different pitches among players in Vienna in, say, 1910), and you wouldn't expect players to retune their pianos or buy a different clarinet to accommodate a different pitch. Not for playing music that was likely to draw ridicule or start a riot, anyway. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz (tense people)?
Gordon, I am just back in Paris, and immediately hunted for the article in question, which was an excellent article on the tribulations of tuning, in lute news No 79 October 2006, P11-14. I see that my memory did not completely fail me, as I fear happens rather often these days, but has just faded a little, as I collapsed your article with the comments that followed it. On page 13, you simply make the objective statement: Stress seems to affect our ability to hear pitch differencesa and it does this in very unfortunate ways. I find that any stress makes it harder for me to tune, but sadly much more likely to hear imperfections. and go on to say that This can make you unhappy with the tuning of your lute and that uncertainness affect your concentration and cause lapses. I am very aware of this hyper-self-critical tendency (a sort of negative feed-back) which results in a worsening performance. However, it was a comment from the floor, which took this question up again, and makes the remark I was remembering, see p.14 : On the subject of stress and tuning, someone noted the old musician's adage that 'you can only play what you are', as a person that is; and asserted that highly-strung nervous musicians tend to play faster and sharper, and very relaxed or lazy ones may play slower, and flatter. Again, I recognize my own tendency, here (in the first case); but, unfortunately, there is no indication about the person who did make this remark, and I misattributed it to yourself. Regards Anthony __ De : Gordon Gregory gor...@gordongregory.co.uk A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 7 Janvier 2012 15h47 Objet : [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? I don't think it was me made the remarks about tense people tuning sharp, it's not an effect I've noticed. Gordon -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Hind Sent: 07 January 2012 13:59 To: [3]t...@heartistrymusic.com; [4]e...@gamutstrings.com; [5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? Thank you all for your responses, and your detailed explanations, Tom. I agree that In fact, that's one reason pitch has risen over the past few hundred years - more string tension = higher volume and brighter sound. Even today some orchestras tune to 442 -444, to take advantage of this effect. and this search for brightness, also partly explains the change from gut strung instruments to metal strung ones (while of course the fragility of gut stringing might perhaps have kept pitch down to save string breakage). I recently heard a performance of Stravinsky's Pulcinella on period brass instruments and a gut strung bowed section by the Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble (Mark Minkowski director); MM argued that even in 1905 gut stringing was fairly standard. He did not say at which pitch they were playing, however, I presume it may have been at 433 Hz. The performance was in no way unsatisfactory, as the modern brightness was replaced by more harmonic texturing, coming both from the gut strings, and from the warmer but also rougher sounding period brass instruments. While the threads of the music remained exceptionally clear, as no instrument type seemed to be covering the other. In relation to tuning over high, I seem to remember that in an article on tuning, Gordon Gregory suggested that relaxed people tend to tune too low, while tense people would tend to tune too high (I certainly read that somewhere, but not certain it was in Gordon's article). However, this coincides well with my own experience, as I always tend to tune too high, if I tune by ear (I would certainly not classify myself as relaxed). Relative brightness would be associated with increased emotional tension, which by some, might be felt as somehow a more exciting sound. Tuning too high, as Ed says, does result in out-of-tuneness, but it can also be considered as an over-bright tonal aberration. In relation to this (and the above), it is recorded in many hifi sites that a change from over bright distorting resistors and capacitors to better noise performance ones, initially results in the hifi enthusiasts feeling that the sound is less exciting (something is missing), before they finally realize they are suffering less listener's fatigue (could be the same with the change to better mics). Perhaps a piece played at 433 may therefore somehow sound more relaxed (and just as interesting on harmonically rich period instruments), when compared
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Thank you all for your responses, and your detailed explanations, Tom. I agree that In fact, that's one reason pitch has risen over the past few hundred years - more string tension = higher volume and brighter sound. Even today some orchestras tune to 442 -444, to take advantage of this effect. and this search for brightness, also partly explains the change from gut strung instruments to metal strung ones (while of course the fragility of gut stringing might perhaps have kept pitch down to save string breakage). I recently heard a performance of Stravinsky's Pulcinella on period brass instruments and a gut strung bowed section by the Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble (Mark Minkowski director); MM argued that even in 1905 gut stringing was fairly standard. He did not say at which pitch they were playing, however, I presume it may have been at 433 Hz. The performance was in no way unsatisfactory, as the modern brightness was replaced by more harmonic texturing, coming both from the gut strings, and from the warmer but also rougher sounding period brass instruments. While the threads of the music remained exceptionally clear, as no instrument type seemed to be covering the other. In relation to tuning over high, I seem to remember that in an article on tuning, Gordon Gregory suggested that relaxed people tend to tune too low, while tense people would tend to tune too high (I certainly read that somewhere, but not certain it was in Gordon's article). However, this coincides well with my own experience, as I always tend to tune too high, if I tune by ear (I would certainly not classify myself as relaxed). Relative brightness would be associated with increased emotional tension, which by some, might be felt as somehow a more exciting sound. Tuning too high, as Ed says, does result in out-of-tuneness, but it can also be considered as an over-bright tonal aberration. In relation to this (and the above), it is recorded in many hifi sites that a change from over bright distorting resistors and capacitors to better noise performance ones, initially results in the hifi enthusiasts feeling that the sound is less exciting (something is missing), before they finally realize they are suffering less listener's fatigue (could be the same with the change to better mics). Perhaps a piece played at 433 may therefore somehow sound more relaxed (and just as interesting on harmonically rich period instruments), when compared to 440 on modern instruments (or period instruments that have been altered to support modern string tensions); although it would indeed seem difficult to explain why 433 might be the harmonic frequency of the universe. Ed's description of competitive tuning between violinists (presumably not gut strung), reminds me of a tale about a televised presidential debate between two candidates here in France. One of the contestants was rather short, and his advisers kept bringing in cushions to make him look taller, but of course those of his taller opponent, began reacting similarly, resulting in something of a Lewis Carrol moment for my friend who was organizing the filming. Back to Ed, how those Baroque Strads must have suffered over the years from this almost Darwinian striving to be better heard than your neighbour. Regards Anthony PS I will think of you Tom, if I decide to let it go. When I am back in Paris I will make a photo of the fork with resonator-case. --- En date de : Ven 6.1.12, t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com a ecrit : De: t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com Objet: Re: [LUTE] tuning fork at 433Hz? A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Date: Vendredi 6 janvier 2012, 23h39 This is very interesting to me, because an old friend recently alerted me to a new line of thinking claiming that 432Hz OUGHT to be true concert pitch. There are websites devoting a lot of space to articles and discussions about this. [1]http://www.omega432.com/music.html [2]http://www.solfeggiotones.com/432-hz/ [3]http://radicalfilms.co.uk/2007/12/26/a-432hz-vs-a-440hz-a-sonic-expe riment-fascinating/ People claim things like it FEELS better, or it's the harmonic frequency of the universe ... (New Age / Airy-Fairey ...) As a piano technician with perfect pitch, I'm pretty locked into 440. But it's fun to experiment with other pitches and temperments. Plus, I am human and cannot say that I'm ALWAYS spot on standard pitch, although I'm usually so close it doesn't matter. I still use a fork to set A4. But when it comes to tuning my lute or guitar I just ear it. I tune my lute low. Sometimes I tune my guitar a smidge higher when playing solo to get a brighter sound. In fact, that's one reason pitch has
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
I don't think it was me made the remarks about tense people tuning sharp, it's not an effect I've noticed. Gordon -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Hind Sent: 07 January 2012 13:59 To: t...@heartistrymusic.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz? Thank you all for your responses, and your detailed explanations, Tom. I agree that In fact, that's one reason pitch has risen over the past few hundred years - more string tension = higher volume and brighter sound. Even today some orchestras tune to 442 -444, to take advantage of this effect. and this search for brightness, also partly explains the change from gut strung instruments to metal strung ones (while of course the fragility of gut stringing might perhaps have kept pitch down to save string breakage). I recently heard a performance of Stravinsky's Pulcinella on period brass instruments and a gut strung bowed section by the Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble (Mark Minkowski director); MM argued that even in 1905 gut stringing was fairly standard. He did not say at which pitch they were playing, however, I presume it may have been at 433 Hz. The performance was in no way unsatisfactory, as the modern brightness was replaced by more harmonic texturing, coming both from the gut strings, and from the warmer but also rougher sounding period brass instruments. While the threads of the music remained exceptionally clear, as no instrument type seemed to be covering the other. In relation to tuning over high, I seem to remember that in an article on tuning, Gordon Gregory suggested that relaxed people tend to tune too low, while tense people would tend to tune too high (I certainly read that somewhere, but not certain it was in Gordon's article). However, this coincides well with my own experience, as I always tend to tune too high, if I tune by ear (I would certainly not classify myself as relaxed). Relative brightness would be associated with increased emotional tension, which by some, might be felt as somehow a more exciting sound. Tuning too high, as Ed says, does result in out-of-tuneness, but it can also be considered as an over-bright tonal aberration. In relation to this (and the above), it is recorded in many hifi sites that a change from over bright distorting resistors and capacitors to better noise performance ones, initially results in the hifi enthusiasts feeling that the sound is less exciting (something is missing), before they finally realize they are suffering less listener's fatigue (could be the same with the change to better mics). Perhaps a piece played at 433 may therefore somehow sound more relaxed (and just as interesting on harmonically rich period instruments), when compared to 440 on modern instruments (or period instruments that have been altered to support modern string tensions); although it would indeed seem difficult to explain why 433 might be the harmonic frequency of the universe. Ed's description of competitive tuning between violinists (presumably not gut strung), reminds me of a tale about a televised presidential debate between two candidates here in France. One of the contestants was rather short, and his advisers kept bringing in cushions to make him look taller, but of course those of his taller opponent, began reacting similarly, resulting in something of a Lewis Carrol moment for my friend who was organizing the filming. Back to Ed, how those Baroque Strads must have suffered over the years from this almost Darwinian striving to be better heard than your neighbour. Regards Anthony PS I will think of you Tom, if I decide to let it go. When I am back in Paris I will make a photo of the fork with resonator-case. --- En date de : Ven 6.1.12, t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com a ecrit : De: t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com Objet: Re: [LUTE] tuning fork at 433Hz? A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Date: Vendredi 6 janvier 2012, 23h39 This is very interesting to me, because an old friend recently alerted me to a new line of thinking claiming that 432Hz OUGHT to be true concert pitch. There are websites devoting a lot of space to articles and discussions about this. [1]http://www.omega432.com/music.html [2]http://www.solfeggiotones.com/432-hz/ [3]http://radicalfilms.co.uk/2007/12/26/a-432hz-vs-a-440hz-a-sonic-expe riment-fascinating/ People claim things like it FEELS better, or it's the harmonic frequency of the universe ... (New Age / Airy-Fairey ...) As a piano technician with perfect pitch, I'm pretty locked into 440. But it's fun to experiment with other
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
Thanks Anthony, although it would indeed seem difficult to explain why 433 might be the harmonic frequency of the universe. BTW - they think it's 432 - one vibe-per-second less than your fork. These people have elaborate and mathematical explanations on their websites. I haven't critically read these explanations yet, so I can offer no opinion on whether I think they have any merit. I am not currently a supporter of the theory, I just know that it exists. Perhaps a piece played at 433 may therefore somehow sound more relaxed (and just as interesting on harmonically rich period instruments), when on compared to 440modern instruments (or period instruments that have been altered tosupport modern string tensions); It seems to me that if one were seriously going to assess sound at a different tuning frequency, then the instrument should be designed and / or set up with the correct string tensions for that frequency. I think that simply taking an instrument designed and strung for 440Hz and lowering the string tension will obviously result in different tonal characteristics. Less tension = less down-bearing on the bridge (of a violin, or a guitar for example - slightly different on a lute where there is no saddle). Less down-bearing would have the effect of less overall volume plus slightly longer sustain. Without embracing scientific method and having a control group in a well designed comparison all this 432 stuff is pure speculation and personal preference, not fact. ... how those Baroque Strads must have suffered over the years from this almost Darwinian striving to be better heard than your neighbour. Yes, they have almost all been altered for higher string tensions: thicker bass bar and soundpost to support the extra pressure, different tailpiece, longer neck set at an angle to allow more playing in high positions, and thicker, higher bridge for more down - bearing. Not only are the strings higher tension, they are also longer. Vuillaume was one of the first makers to start effecting these alterations for players like Pagannini. Interesting thread. Thanks again, Tom Thank you all for your responses, and your detailed explanations, Tom. I agree that In fact, that's one reason pitch has risen over the past few hundred years - more string tension = higher volume and brighter sound. Even today some orchestras tune to 442 - 444, to take advantage of this effect. and this search for brightness, also partly explains the change from gut strung instruments to metal strung ones (while of course the fragility of gut stringing might perhaps have kept pitch down to save string breakage). I recently heard a performance of Stravinsky's Pulcinella on period brass instruments and a gut strung bowed section by the Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble (Mark Minkowski director); MM argued that even in 1905 gut stringing was fairly standard. He did not say at which pitch they were playing, however, I presume it may have been at 433 Hz. The performance was in no way unsatisfactory, as the modern brightness was replaced by more harmonic texturing, coming both from the gut strings, and from the warmer but also rougher sounding period brass instruments. While the threads of the music remained exceptionally clear, as no instrument type seemed to be covering the other. In relation to tuning over high, I seem to remember that in an article on tuning, Gordon Gregory suggested that relaxed people tend to tune too low, while tense people would tend to tune too high (I certainly read that somewhere, but not certain it was in Gordon's article). However, this coincides well with my own experience, as I always tend to tune too high, if I tune by ear (I would certainly not classify myself as relaxed). Relative brightness would be associated with increased emotional tension, which by some, might be felt as somehow a more exciting sound. Tuning too high, as Ed says, does result in out-of-tuneness, but it can also be considered as an over-bright tonal aberration. In relation to this (and the above), it is recorded in many hifi sites that a change from over bright distorting resistors and capacitors to better noise performance ones, initially results in the hifi enthusiasts feeling that the sound is less exciting (something is missing), before they finally realize they are suffering less listener's fatigue (could be the same with the change to better mics). Perhaps a piece played at 433 may therefore
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
This is very interesting to me, because an old friend recently alerted me to a new line of thinking claiming that 432Hz OUGHT to be true concert pitch. There are websites devoting a lot of space to articles and discussions about this. http://www.omega432.com/music.html http://www.solfeggiotones.com/432-hz/ http://radicalfilms.co.uk/2007/12/26/a-432hz-vs-a-440hz-a-sonic-experiment-fascinating/ People claim things like it FEELS better, or it's the harmonic frequency of the universe ... (New Age / Airy-Fairey ...) As a piano technician with perfect pitch, I'm pretty locked into 440. But it's fun to experiment with other pitches and temperments. Plus, I am human and cannot say that I'm ALWAYS spot on standard pitch, although I'm usually so close it doesn't matter. I still use a fork to set A4. But when it comes to tuning my lute or guitar I just ear it. I tune my lute low. Sometimes I tune my guitar a smidge higher when playing solo to get a brighter sound. In fact, that's one reason pitch has risen over the past few hundred years - more string tension = higher volume and brighter sound. Even today some orchestras tune to 442 -444, to take advantage of this effect. Anthony, if you ever decide you'd like to part with your 433 fork I'd be interested in having it. Then maybe I, too, can be in harmony with the universe! (Or close to it?) Tom Dear luthenists A friend gave me an amusing tuning fork, which is clearly of some age. I am not (here) in a position to be able to load a photo of it, but it fits into a tight wooden case, and at the end of this there is a hollow metal peg. I quickly realized that if you place the case on a table, and set the tuning fork ringing while holding it in the metal peg's hollow, the resonance is amplified. I measure the resonance as 433Hz. Would this be the London Philharmonic Orchestra pitch of 1826? This is what I read at http://www.antsmarching.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-84975.html In 1939, an International Conference met in London and unanimously adopted 440 Hz as the standard frequency for the pitch A4, and that is the almost universal standard at present. Previously, the standard was A=435 (fixed, Paris Academy, 1859, as diapason normal; and confirmed, Vienna conference, 1885, as international pitch). The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) broadcasts a precise 440 Hz reference tone on its short wave radio station WWV (Along with time data). In the 1800's there was also Philharmonic Pitch, that of the London Philharmonic Orchestra. It varied from 1826, were A=433 Hz, and in 1845, was raised to A=455 Hz. Historically it has ranged from A=403 Hz to 567 Hz. !!! What do you think. The fork is unfortunately not perfect, having been effected by some rust, but I don't think this would explain the 433HZ. I was not intending to use it, but it is an entertaining looking (if no doubt useless) object. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
So true. I recall years ago, playing a mandolino in the double Vovaldi concerto, with a modern chamber orchestra. The concertmaster gave a true a=440 to tune all the string players, but most of the string players tuned sharper than that, and they were around 443. I recall in rehearsals stopping, and inquiring why they did that. They responded that many of the individual violinists tuned sharp, so I can hear myself, and they found that it was easier for them to play that way. I stopped to have them re-tune to a = 440. I found this frustrating. I ended tuning my mandolino sharper to match their pitch, and the violinists in turn tuned sharper yet. We just could not agree. There was a small portative organ playing continuo, and it was flat to the group. ed At 04:39 PM 1/6/2012, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Even today some orchestras tune to 442 -444, to take advantage of this effect. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I recall in rehearsals stopping, and inquiring why they did that. They responded that many of the individual violinists tuned sharp, so I can hear myself, and they found that it was easier for them to play that way. The usual answer is better sharp than out of tune. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
How silly is that? Playing sharp _is_ out of tune! At 05:51 PM 1/6/2012, howard posner wrote: On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I recall in rehearsals stopping, and inquiring why they did that. They responded that many of the individual violinists tuned sharp, so I can hear myself, and they found that it was easier for them to play that way. The usual answer is better sharp than out of tune. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
On Jan 6, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Edward Martin wrote: The usual answer is better sharp than out of tune. How silly is that? Playing sharp _is_ out of tune! Well, it's a joke, but like much humor, it's based in experience. If the orchestra is playing at 441 and the flute player comes in at 442 with her big solo, nobody will hear it as sharp; they'll just hear the flute as being a bit more brilliant and (if Roman will pardon the expression) prominent. That's the theory, anyway. Really good players can manipulate fine gradations in pitch. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
Try to turn the wound string around (tail to head). If that does not work - it is wounded indeed! and you need the new string. Of course, one can spend some time with a micrometer measuring the string, looking for the twisted part of it, and hoping it is not in the middle of the string. But just turning it around very often works. On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:07:59 +0200 Ivo Jancík iv...@trabant.cz wrote: Hello everybody. I have a tuning problem with my lute, which I don't know how to solve. I have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in tune, but the wounded one gets out of tune (sounds significantly higher, than it should). Sliding the frets won't help, as the other strings are in tune. Could you please kindly advice? Many thanks. Kind regards, Ivo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
Dear All, Yes, I agree, try turning the string round. What happens is the string gets worn thinner, especially around the second fret where it gets fingered more often than anywhere else. Gut string users should note that this happens with gut strings as well, so turning the string round is a good first move, followed by that expensive replacement With any kind of string, if you have enough spare length you might be able to arrange for the most worn part of the string to be at or beyond the bridge rather than in the sounding length of the string. Best wishes, Martin alexander wrote: Try to turn the wound string around (tail to head). If that does not work - it is wounded indeed! and you need the new string. Of course, one can spend some time with a micrometer measuring the string, looking for the twisted part of it, and hoping it is not in the middle of the string. But just turning it around very often works. On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:07:59 +0200 Ivo Jancík iv...@trabant.cz wrote: Hello everybody. I have a tuning problem with my lute, which I don't know how to solve. I have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in tune, but the wounded one gets out of tune (sounds significantly higher, than it should). Sliding the frets won't help, as the other strings are in tune. Could you please kindly advice? Many thanks. Kind regards, Ivo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009, Ivo Jancík iv...@trabant.cz said: Hello everybody. I have a tuning problem with my lute, which I don't know how to solve. I have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in tune, but the wounded one gets out of tune (sounds significantly higher, than it should). Begin with a sanity check, if this is a new problem showing up on an old instrument, what has changed? new strings? are they mounted reasonably? you can adjust some issues in action height by adjusting the loop at the bridge. Sometimes a string wont be set properly in its nut groove. You should measure and write down the height of the action near the body; if this changes more than a mm you may have a physical problem needing repair. Stopping any string raises its tension slightly, keeping the action low mitigates this; sound to me as if your octave is either positioned too high or sized so it comes to pitch at too high a tension. Are you certain this is the only affected string? Could be the frets are not as well graduated as they should be, could be the neck is out of alignment and the action is high at higher frets. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
Hi All, I've got exactly the same problem: same kind of lute, same tuning, same course, same string (which is actually a brand new one)... I wonder if this is not a string problem. Nicolás -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de Ivo Jancík Enviado el: jueves, 16 de julio de 2009 04:08 Para: Lute List Asunto: [LUTE] Tuning issue Hello everybody. I have a tuning problem with my lute, which I don't know how to solve. I have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in tune, but the wounded one gets out of tune (sounds significantly higher, than it should). Sliding the frets won't help, as the other strings are in tune. Could you please kindly advice? Many thanks. Kind regards, Ivo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
Different take on the issue. If you're using a metal-wound (rich in harmonics) on the 5th course of an 8-course lute, there is no reason whatsoever to pair that with an octave string (there only to enrich a dull (gut) bass string with extra harmonics). So, how about replacing the octave string with another metal-wound? When still using metal-wounds on my 8-course, this was my set-up. No octave string on the 6th course either, btw. David have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
And the double metal wounds struck together seem to reinforce themselves so they ring f-o-r--e--v---ah ! Uuuwwaawaaaoooo, baby! We 'stuck-in-the-rennaissance-touchy-feely-ropey-gut-types' just have to go to longer lutes to get that kind of sustain-lovin' action. Sean On Jul 16, 2009, at 10:11 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Different take on the issue. If you're using a metal-wound (rich in harmonics) on the 5th course of an 8-course lute, there is no reason whatsoever to pair that with an octave string (there only to enrich a dull (gut) bass string with extra harmonics). So, how about replacing the octave string with another metal-wound? When still using metal-wounds on my 8-course, this was my set-up. No octave string on the 6th course either, btw. David have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
Here's another 8 course (all gut) with the out-of-tune fretted 5th (and, once, 6th) course. Took the advice of reversing the string (in this case, the fundamental), and -- presto! no problem. Saved me $20 on a pistoy gut string. The old one had gone false, but in away that reversal eliminated, or at least reduced, the problem. I used a trick I learned from Ed Martin to determine falsity: pluck the string under strobe lighting conditions (he thought a tv would do it, but I used a fluorescent tube light with a sheet of dark colored paper under the strings). The true strings will had a very regular wave form to them, while the false rascal had a lot of smaller wavies that shimmied up and down the string--it looked snaky (hard to explain, best to see it happen). Thanks to ?? for the tip on reversing the string!! Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ On Jul 16, 2009, at 10:11 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Different take on the issue. If you're using a metal-wound (rich in harmonics) on the 5th course of an 8-course lute, there is no reason whatsoever to pair that with an octave string (there only to enrich a dull (gut) bass string with extra harmonics). So, how about replacing the octave string with another metal-wound? When still using metal-wounds on my 8-course, this was my set-up. No octave string on the 6th course either, btw. David have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
That's a good trick, Leonard, and a real dollar saver. And the strobe could be useful. On a good string in natural light it *should* be difficult to pick out the wavy line of a false string. Still I wonder if the strobe might give you the 'false positive' of a bad string. Obviously I should do the check myself. Another trick is to never cut the bass fundamental whatever its length and wrap the remainder around the pegbox (I saw Jacob H. do this years ago on his 6-c). Be sure that most of the peg grip comes from a few wraps and not the knot/fold/kink through the peghole. When it comes time to reposition the string hang it w/ a slight weight to undo the fold (it's inevitable) for a few days taking care not to let it unwind. I do this w/ the 5th and 6th courses and can get years out of a good bass string. I have to admit, I've always admired the lute world for all its little tricks that we lutenists always get to learn. We can imagine many of them were commonplace but we'll never know for sure which ones ;^) Sean On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: Here's another 8 course (all gut) with the out-of-tune fretted 5th (and, once, 6th) course. Took the advice of reversing the string (in this case, the fundamental), and -- presto! no problem. Saved me $20 on a pistoy gut string. The old one had gone false, but in away that reversal eliminated, or at least reduced, the problem. I used a trick I learned from Ed Martin to determine falsity: pluck the string under strobe lighting conditions (he thought a tv would do it, but I used a fluorescent tube light with a sheet of dark colored paper under the strings). The true strings will had a very regular wave form to them, while the false rascal had a lot of smaller wavies that shimmied up and down the string--it looked snaky (hard to explain, best to see it happen). Thanks to ?? for the tip on reversing the string!! Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ On Jul 16, 2009, at 10:11 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Different take on the issue. If you're using a metal-wound (rich in harmonics) on the 5th course of an 8-course lute, there is no reason whatsoever to pair that with an octave string (there only to enrich a dull (gut) bass string with extra harmonics). So, how about replacing the octave string with another metal-wound? When still using metal-wounds on my 8-course, this was my set-up. No octave string on the 6th course either, btw. David have got 8-course lute, G-tuning, 572 mm bridge to nut. My fifth course (C) consists of Nylgut 56 and wounded NG 112D (octave difference). After fine tuning the untouched course (both in tune, c+C), the problem appears when playing the course on 2nd, 3rd etc fret. The unwounded string remains in -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning issue
One thing about gut strings when using a 4th course, or larger diameter, all one has to do is to stick the string through the peg hole. None does not have to make a knot kink it. ed At 06:43 PM 7/16/2009, Sean Smith wrote: Another trick is to never cut the bass fundamental whatever its length and wrap the remainder around the pegbox (I saw Jacob H. do this years ago on his 6-c). Be sure that most of the peg grip comes from a few wraps and not the knot/fold/kink through the peghole. When it comes time to reposition the string hang it w/ a slight weight to undo the fold (it's inevitable) for a few days taking care not to let it unwind. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning protocol
Dear Leonard and All: The wise guys in the New York Continuo Collective generally use G as their tuning standard. When somebody new asks for an A, they reply, eh? Cheers, Jim From: Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/29 Tue PM 05:30:29 CDT To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Tuning protocol Collective Wisdom-- It seems that most tuning schemes have you starting with your A, whatever A you've decided on (440, 415, etc). For solo playing, however, would it not be better to consider the pitch of the lute? Most pieces for the G lute (renaissance tuning) seem to fall in the keys of F, Bb, C or G and their relative minors. Should we be tuning to a note that is in some way focal to each of these keys? Or perhaps we should view the whole affair from a modal perspective and find a central tone therein for tuning? Is the lute in this sense a transposing instrument, like an Eb clarinet or a Bb trumpet? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tuning Down Chantarelle ( was Deuxième tombeau sur la mort de ma chanterelle)
Does anyone else tune down the chanterelle after playing or tie pieces on to broken strings and re-use them? If so, how long does it extend the life of the string? I do this all the time with lower non treble courses that break above the nut. I even use thick non stretchy thread or even yarn to splice it together. As long as it is above the nut it doesn't matter. Sterling Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tuning Down Chantarelle (was Deuxième tombeau sur la mort de ma chanterelle)
It depends on how salvageable the string is. If it broke in the pegbox area and is a good treble, I have no shame in getting further use out of it. I am noticing much longer life lately in gut trebles for my baroque lutes (11 and 13 course), because I tune them lower than usual. ed At 07:42 AM 2/12/2008 -0800, howard posner wrote: I haven't. I wonder if daily retuning of a string might shorten its life because of daily rubbing at the nut. On Feb 12, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Stephen Arndt wrote: Does anyone else tune down the chanterelle after playing or tie pieces on to broken strings and re-use them? If so, how long does it extend the life of the string? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1272 - Release Date: 2/11/2008 5:28 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Tuning software for Mac
Leonard Sean Smith gave me information about the Strobe Tuner 1.5 for $15 from Katsura Shareware Sean says, It appears to be Mac _only_ and it's far more exacting than my strings or my ear. It's nice to have the choice of 1/4 or 6th comma, or even equal temp. in any key and/or hertz. http://mac.rbytes.net/cat/mac/audio/strobe-tuner/ Regards Anthony Le 10 dec. 07 =E0 22:43, Leonard Williams a ecrit : I'm sure this has been addressed before, but I no longer have the posts: Is there any programmable tuning software for the Mac? I'm looking for meantone and just tuning schemes. Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Tuning Blues
You should try to get to an LSA seminar, if possible. Next year is in Cleveland, which isn't all that far from Montreal (a good bit closer than Seattle, anyway). You will see all sorts of lutes there, and folks are usually more than happy to let you try them. Guy -Original Message- From: Rebecca Banks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tuning Blues November 21st, 2007 Dear David: Thank you for your kind email. I have already ordered the replacement gut strings from AquilaUSA but may try the people you suggested as things progress. And I think I will try an A=415 tuning as it was just such a tight wind on the D strings and so heartbreaking when they just broke. I had been using some peg paste but somehow I think the higher pitch I was tuning it to A=440 was too high. It is such a delicate instrument and very beautiful but so light, very much the feminine, not quite what I was expecting. (however the carvings are very beautiful). I am much attracted to swan necks and Lute/guitars although I do not think this is a very popular stance, and quite guiltily am a little attracted by Julian Bream metal frets and perhaps a more masculine, heavier body. I think I would like to eventually order an 1800's swan neck model and maybe a little more heavier a little more like a guitar. It is wonderful, people have different tastes and it is so nice to be a! ble to indulge and get exactly what you like and everyone is different, maybe I just need to explore the world of Lutes a little more and get to a Lute Museum or to the Lute Lenders library at the Lute Society or a Lute makers workshop. It was the funniest thing when I picked up the Lute for the first time, it was like the Lute was expecting a blonde girl of 12 years and I was expecting a husband. Still when I was playing it for the first time there were the glimpses of the most wonderful sound. Waiting for the new strings to arrive is like waiting for Christmas. I am up in Montreal but may be going out on tour at some point, I received a distribution contract offer for Sleep quiet hearts . . . although I need financing to get into the studio to produce the CD (which is only half written so far). I hope to be back in the Studio by Summer in any case. Would love to drop by Maryland, but depends on how things progress. Montreal is the city of love, the French are very appreciative of musicians/songwriters, some good things have been happenning, random reports of dancing in the Metro etc. I must have played over 75 performances here since May 2007. Would love to take the Lute to the Metro but I don't know if it will be heard over the trains and crowds. I think I will try as soon as I get the new strings. Have a great evening! Take care, with thanks, Rebecca Banks Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [LUTE] Re: Tuning BluesDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:35:54 -0500To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rebecca, I've been thinking how lucky you are to have a bass lute. I've been thinging of ordering a bass lute myself, so I can sing all my favorite lute songs in a vocal range I can handle. I'm so sorry to hear you've been having string problems on your new lute. It sounds as though you might have been putting on the wrong guage strings for your size of lute. That's usually why strings will break. A=440 is not necessarily just for guitarists: it is the standard pitch used by almost all musicians today for any instruments. Have you ever heard symphony orchestra tuning up before a concert? First the concertmaster (the first-chair violinist) stands up and plays the note A at the 440 frequency, then all the instrumentalists join in and try to match the pitch on their own instruments. It's that famous moment of cacophony before the concert begins. You must have heard it, right? A=415 is about a half-step lower than A=440, and is used by some chamber music players, and almost all Baroque soloists. If you want to play you lute with other players apart from the early-music freaks, use A=440. The 440 refers to frequencies per second of sound waves, or some such thing, but if you want to get strings that will suit your lute, the string supplier will always ask you if you want to string in 440 or 415. I suggest you concact Chris Hendrickson at Boston Catlines (617-776-8688), and tell him the playing length of your lute (the length of the open strings from bridge to saddle), the standard pitch you want to use (A=440 or A=415), and the fact that that you want it tuned in D as a bass lute. He is a professional lutenist, and a most reliable dealer in strings for early-music instruments. Any questions you might have about strings, he will be able to answer for you. I recommend him highly, in fact you can tell him I gave you his number, as I regard him so highly as a leading lute-string
[LUTE] Re: Tuning Blues
On Nov 22, 2007, at 12:15 AM, Guy Smith wrote: You should try to get to an LSA seminar, if possible. Next year is in Cleveland, which isn't all that far from Montreal (a good bit closer than Seattle, anyway). You will see all sorts of lutes there, and folks are usually more than happy to let you try them. Good advice. DavidR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
A must read. Just say no to Valotti. http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ dt At 03:56 PM 11/19/2007, you wrote: In case someone doesn't know it, there's an enjoyable paper by Ross Duffin online: Why I hate Valotti (or is it Young?): http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ Regards, Stephan Am 19 Nov 2007 um 18:03 hat Stewart McCoy geschrieben: Dear David, The temperament known as Valotti was presumably invented by the eponymous Valotti. If keyboards are tuned to Valotti, one should tune one's theorbo to 6th comma meantone, which will mean that all the white notes sound well together, but the black notes won't sound so good on the keyboards. As long as you avoid dodgy enharmonics on the theorbo, the plucked strings will sound sweeter than the same notes played on the keyboards. Asking players to switch from A=415 to A=411 and back in the same concert is plain daft. If you have to play chords of G# major and C# minor at A=448, is there any mileage in tuning your theorbo a semitone lower? It would mean those chords would then be played as A major and D minor. If that creates more problems than it solves, forget it. One of the problems of tuning one's theorbo to a higher pitch than normal, is that there is an increased strain on the neck of the instrument. My theorbo is tuned at A=415, and is not designed to go up to A=440. However, if I need to play at A=440, I get round the problem by turning the 14th course (G) down to nothing, and the 12th course (B) down to G. That takes the strain off the neck, and enables the other strings to go up to A=440. The disadvantages are that I lose a low B, which is no great loss most of the time, and the low G is rather weedy played on the 12th course. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] tuning blues Bad tuning karma weekend. Saturday Alexander's Feast by Handel. Baroque orchestra at 415 Valotti. Who invented Valotti? Not a lute player I presume. In the break we had to move to another part of the church, unheated, to play a Handel organ concerto. At 411. After the break back to 415. Actually we managed to remain stable, but there was lots of complaining in the orchestra. Understandably. Sunday, other church, other orchestra. Buxtehude, Hollanders and Charpentier at 448. Baroque string players were struggling, strings didn't break, but were not stable. Organ in ET. Cello was way of in his sharps. He just couldn't match it. Perhaps because of the high pitch, perhaps of the ET. But some of the music was in C# minor (how does one play G#-major chords on a theorbo in A?), so there wasn't really another option than ET anyway. Next week Maria Vespers at 440. 1/4 comma MT, presumably. Should be fine again. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
In case someone doesn't know it, there's an enjoyable paper by Ross Duffin online: Why I hate Valotti (or is it Young?): http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ Regards, Stephan How nice to be validated! Thank you so much for the above reference- great article. When I was actively messing around with different tempering solutions on the lute, I ended up with 6th comma meantone almost by default after running through a number of others- but did not include V-Y ones. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
Dear All After leaving my bag in a motorway cajé with papers some music and Korg OT12 tuner, I was forced, while waiting for it to be sent on to me. (There are some honest people about!), to use my equal temperament Zen-on Chromatina 331 tuner. I bought this 20 years ago. Yes I know I should use my ears more, well I do both (belts and bracers). I was actually surprised that the needle reading is much more pleasant than the Korg's digital read out, it is intuitively right, and furthermore, perhaps because it is less accurate, it has absolutely no problem with gimped bass strings. The Korg seems always completely unable to 'extract the fundamental' and goes all over the place. The needle on the Chromatina seems to behave much closer to how the ear does. Any slight lowering in string tension(what ever the string) sees the needle move down (and vice versa). I wonder whether it is because the Zenon is less accurate, less sophisticated, or has a better algorithm. Perhaps, it has no algorithm but functions on some much more basic principle. Oh for a cross between a Peterson a Korg and a Zen-on: a completely programmable tuner, but with a needle reading. Any ideas about this. Yes I know you are going to tell me to swap my gimped for wirewounds!!! and that the Korg is telling me that the string has gone false One big problem with the Zen-on is that batteries don't last, and of course it is equal temperament. Regards Anthony Le 20 nov. 07 à 11:34, David Tayler a écrit : A must read. Just say no to Valotti. http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ dt At 03:56 PM 11/19/2007, you wrote: In case someone doesn't know it, there's an enjoyable paper by Ross Duffin online: Why I hate Valotti (or is it Young?): http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ Regards, Stephan Am 19 Nov 2007 um 18:03 hat Stewart McCoy geschrieben: Dear David, The temperament known as Valotti was presumably invented by the eponymous Valotti. If keyboards are tuned to Valotti, one should tune one's theorbo to 6th comma meantone, which will mean that all the white notes sound well together, but the black notes won't sound so good on the keyboards. As long as you avoid dodgy enharmonics on the theorbo, the plucked strings will sound sweeter than the same notes played on the keyboards. Asking players to switch from A=415 to A=411 and back in the same concert is plain daft. If you have to play chords of G# major and C# minor at A=448, is there any mileage in tuning your theorbo a semitone lower? It would mean those chords would then be played as A major and D minor. If that creates more problems than it solves, forget it. One of the problems of tuning one's theorbo to a higher pitch than normal, is that there is an increased strain on the neck of the instrument. My theorbo is tuned at A=415, and is not designed to go up to A=440. However, if I need to play at A=440, I get round the problem by turning the 14th course (G) down to nothing, and the 12th course (B) down to G. That takes the strain off the neck, and enables the other strings to go up to A=440. The disadvantages are that I lose a low B, which is no great loss most of the time, and the low G is rather weedy played on the 12th course. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] tuning blues Bad tuning karma weekend. Saturday Alexander's Feast by Handel. Baroque orchestra at 415 Valotti. Who invented Valotti? Not a lute player I presume. In the break we had to move to another part of the church, unheated, to play a Handel organ concerto. At 411. After the break back to 415. Actually we managed to remain stable, but there was lots of complaining in the orchestra. Understandably. Sunday, other church, other orchestra. Buxtehude, Hollanders and Charpentier at 448. Baroque string players were struggling, strings didn't break, but were not stable. Organ in ET. Cello was way of in his sharps. He just couldn't match it. Perhaps because of the high pitch, perhaps of the ET. But some of the music was in C# minor (how does one play G#-major chords on a theorbo in A?), so there wasn't really another option than ET anyway. Next week Maria Vespers at 440. 1/4 comma MT, presumably. Should be fine again. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
Not me- keep the gimps; and if the Korg keeps giving you trouble tell it you're taking it out for coffee again... Any ideas about this. Yes I know you are going to tell me to swap my gimped for wirewounds!!! and that the Korg is telling me that the string has gone false One big problem with the Zen-on is that batteries don't last, and of course it is equal temperament. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
In case someone doesn't know it, there's an enjoyable paper by Ross Duffin online: Why I hate Valotti (or is it Young?): http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ Regards, Stephan How nice to be validated! Thank you so much for the above reference- great article. When I was actively messing around with different tempering solutions on the lute, I ended up with 6th comma meantone almost by default after running through a number of others- but did not include V-Y ones. Dan Yes, time and time again 6th comma seems the best solution, even to rather modern baroque music like Bach and beyond. And the lute sounds so much better than in ET. It's a cheap upgrade. ;-) David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
I'll try that David Le 20 nov. 07 à 12:32, Daniel Winheld a écrit : Not me- keep the gimps; and if the Korg keeps giving you trouble tell it you're taking it out for coffee again... Any ideas about this. Yes I know you are going to tell me to swap my gimped for wirewounds!!! and that the Korg is telling me that the string has gone false One big problem with the Zen-on is that batteries don't last, and of course it is equal temperament. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
Benjamin Stehr wrote: Hi Steward, i choosed a tension that works well in 440 on the extension of my theorbo. Changing to 415 caused the 8th course to touch the fretboard when playing very loud, but putting something under the saddle on the extension (about 1mm) increased the forward pull on the extension so that this is not a problem anymore. I can now change from 440 to 415 without changing strings or doing any corrections on the saddle and do not notice any effect on the angle of the extension. I guess the key is that if the diapasons are parallel to the fingered strings (and extension) the effect on the neck with a different tension will be much less. I change the tuning quite often between 415 and 440 - so far this was not a problem. Maybe you could get around the problem by doing adjustments on the upper saddle (like using different saddles for 415 or 440 to keep the angle of the neck)? Do the others on this list change the strings on their instruments between 415 and 440? Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Big instruments like theorbos don't seem to mind being tuned up or down a semi-tone, a slightly harder or weaker tension doesn't make much difference to the overall feel. On the other hand, smaller lutes react completely differently under different tension and I think you have to be a bit careful not to put them under too much strain.
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
Hi Steward, i choosed a tension that works well in 440 on the extension of my theorbo. Changing to 415 caused the 8th course to touch the fretboard when playing very loud, but putting something under the saddle on the extension (about 1mm) increased the forward pull on the extension so that this is not a problem anymore. I can now change from 440 to 415 without changing strings or doing any corrections on the saddle and do not notice any effect on the angle of the extension. I guess the key is that if the diapasons are parallel to the fingered strings (and extension) the effect on the neck with a different tension will be much less. I change the tuning quite often between 415 and 440 - so far this was not a problem. Maybe you could get around the problem by doing adjustments on the upper saddle (like using different saddles for 415 or 440 to keep the angle of the neck)? Do the others on this list change the strings on their instruments between 415 and 440? Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
End of Tuning blues, http://www.gibson.com/robotguitar/RobotGuitarVideoVoting.aspx hope they will develop it soon for lute. ;-) lute on we Nigel Solomon schrieb: Benjamin Stehr wrote: Hi Steward, i choosed a tension that works well in 440 on the extension of my theorbo. Changing to 415 caused the 8th course to touch the fretboard when playing very loud, but putting something under the saddle on the extension (about 1mm) increased the forward pull on the extension so that this is not a problem anymore. I can now change from 440 to 415 without changing strings or doing any corrections on the saddle and do not notice any effect on the angle of the extension. I guess the key is that if the diapasons are parallel to the fingered strings (and extension) the effect on the neck with a different tension will be much less. I change the tuning quite often between 415 and 440 - so far this was not a problem. Maybe you could get around the problem by doing adjustments on the upper saddle (like using different saddles for 415 or 440 to keep the angle of the neck)? Do the others on this list change the strings on their instruments between 415 and 440? Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Big instruments like theorbos don't seem to mind being tuned up or down a semi-tone, a slightly harder or weaker tension doesn't make much difference to the overall feel. On the other hand, smaller lutes react completely differently under different tension and I think you have to be a bit careful not to put them under too much strain.
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
Hi all, Nigel Solomon wrote: Benjamin Stehr wrote: Do the others on this list change the strings on their instruments between 415 and 440? Big instruments like theorbos don't seem to mind being tuned up or down a semi-tone, a slightly harder or weaker tension doesn't make much difference to the overall feel. On the other hand, smaller lutes react completely differently under different tension and I think you have to be a bit careful not to put them under too much strain. Nigel wrote nearly exactly, what I was thinking to write! Thus, I second Nigel's comment. The sound of my biggish Dieffopruchar 1608 theorbo is actually really quite loud in 440, perhaps too loud? ;-) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
Ever try just tuning down a semitone and playing a G instrument? On Nov 19, 2007, at 10:03 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: My theorbo is tuned at A=415, and is not designed to go up to A=440. However, if I need to play at A=440, I get round the problem by turning the 14th course (G) down to nothing, and the 12th course (B) down to G. That takes the strain off the neck, and enables the other strings to go up to A=440. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
I know the feeling. For me, every now and then a correct chord creeps in. It's very gratifying when that happens. On Nov 19, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I can happily read figured bass on a G lute and an A theorbo, but when I swap the tunings around, mistakes start to creep in. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues
In case someone doesn't know it, there's an enjoyable paper by Ross Duffin online: Why I hate Valotti (or is it Young?): http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/ Regards, Stephan Am 19 Nov 2007 um 18:03 hat Stewart McCoy geschrieben: Dear David, The temperament known as Valotti was presumably invented by the eponymous Valotti. If keyboards are tuned to Valotti, one should tune one's theorbo to 6th comma meantone, which will mean that all the white notes sound well together, but the black notes won't sound so good on the keyboards. As long as you avoid dodgy enharmonics on the theorbo, the plucked strings will sound sweeter than the same notes played on the keyboards. Asking players to switch from A=415 to A=411 and back in the same concert is plain daft. If you have to play chords of G# major and C# minor at A=448, is there any mileage in tuning your theorbo a semitone lower? It would mean those chords would then be played as A major and D minor. If that creates more problems than it solves, forget it. One of the problems of tuning one's theorbo to a higher pitch than normal, is that there is an increased strain on the neck of the instrument. My theorbo is tuned at A=415, and is not designed to go up to A=440. However, if I need to play at A=440, I get round the problem by turning the 14th course (G) down to nothing, and the 12th course (B) down to G. That takes the strain off the neck, and enables the other strings to go up to A=440. The disadvantages are that I lose a low B, which is no great loss most of the time, and the low G is rather weedy played on the 12th course. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] tuning blues Bad tuning karma weekend. Saturday Alexander's Feast by Handel. Baroque orchestra at 415 Valotti. Who invented Valotti? Not a lute player I presume. In the break we had to move to another part of the church, unheated, to play a Handel organ concerto. At 411. After the break back to 415. Actually we managed to remain stable, but there was lots of complaining in the orchestra. Understandably. Sunday, other church, other orchestra. Buxtehude, Hollanders and Charpentier at 448. Baroque string players were struggling, strings didn't break, but were not stable. Organ in ET. Cello was way of in his sharps. He just couldn't match it. Perhaps because of the high pitch, perhaps of the ET. But some of the music was in C# minor (how does one play G#-major chords on a theorbo in A?), so there wasn't really another option than ET anyway. Next week Maria Vespers at 440. 1/4 comma MT, presumably. Should be fine again. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning Blues
Hi Rebecca- love to help, but we need to know the string length. I don't know the extreme limit for a D [EMAIL PROTECTED], but when I had a short scale bass for solo work, I could get up to E @A=440 on 72 cm. w/nylon before the instrument's response pooped out. I usually kept it at 415 to 420 for optimum response, but never tested the breaking limit with gut. Others on the list will help, but you must let everyone know the string length, and what diameter, type, and manufacturer of the gut treble strings you've been using. Also of course check the nut with a magnifying glass under a good light to check for anything- pinching in the groove or any sharp edges, corners, etc. that could sabotage your strings. Best of luck, Dan November 19th, 2007 Dear Lutenists: I have been having trouble tuning in my new 6c. Bass Renaissance Lute, I have a new tuner that reads in A=440 (I believe this is for guitar) and a selection of variations including A=415. The Lute is tuned D, G, C, F, A, D in double strings. I have blown two treble D gut strings, (which makes me feel quite badly), what is the correct tuning? with thanks, Rebecca BanksTea at Tympani Lane Recordswww.tympanilanerecords.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuning and temperament
Just found a very interesting interactive educational website dealing with tuning: http://www.j2b.co.uk/tuning/index.html Leonard Very nice! David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
Whatever artistic decisions went into the new Spielberg film, you can bet the biggest consideration was to at least recoup its (probably colossal) budget. That's what Hollywood has always done, and it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. A great read on this subject is The Whole Equation by David Thomson. Swimming back upstream to our topic, I would also note: Authenticity is a relative term. Right now as I type, I'm multiplexing a DVD of Battleship Potemkin which will have the new soundtrack by the Pet Shop Boys. You could say Eisenstein never imagined such a thing, therefore it is inauthentic. Or you could argue that such a soundtrack is more authentic to the underlying revolutionary ideal of the work, and true to Eisenstein's alleged wish for a newly composed soundtrack every decade. This particular one sounds spectacular, I should add. And I don't think anyone here will argue with Mark that an unheard lute is a good thing, but maybe it's a good thing that today's modern instrument ensembles at least pay lip service to HIP. -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong At 06:51 PM 12/19/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In einer eMail vom 20.12.2005 00:02:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jackson also took the Lord of the Rings a step further and, for me, shed the essence of the original in spectacular Spielbergian tradition. I find this all a rather strange analogy. The problem with Lord of the rings is the sheer size and sheer amount of material. I think he kept the essence of the original and stretched the boundaries of mainstream cinema in a way that Lucas and Spielberg did 20 years ago. I understand subplot omissions to make large literary works fit into 2-3 hrs of film. However, I definitely do not like the rewrites Jackson's team imposed on The Lord of the Rings. I don't like how he changed he nature of the relationship amongst the three approaching Mordor; in doing so, I do feel he reshaped the essence of those three central characters and, thus, the whole mood of the story. They were good looking films, at least the story was recognizable, and the soundtrack captured an appropriate mood. I also don't like how far we've strayed from the plucked string. My problem with war of the worlds is that I get the feeling that using the original setting and staying closer to the book were not options that were considered at all, because they would not fit into what Hollywood expects particulary of a Tom Cruise film. Period costumes and settings would not be new to Cruise. Consider Interview with a Vampire. It is if I were to to play every kind of lute music on a single strung archlute and not even consider that maybe another instrument would be better for a particular repertoire. I hope there is more to our music than just cosmetic pegboxes, because that would be a trauerode and all of our (st john) passion would be spent in vain. Thank you for rendering this semi-relevant again. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning
At 07:30 AM 12/18/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But modern or period still does matter, I enjoy listening to Bruckner, Mahler etc. But I don't want to hear it played on a clavichord ! An inaudible lute showing it's extended pegbox is just not good enough for me, I expect a so high a level of musicianship that the musicians are interested in the music that they are playing. Not just doing their job. Obviously, these are good points. There are enough good authentic orchestras out there that modern performances of baroque music are a bit pointless. I can't quite agree. Modern performances are modern performances, and HIP is HIP. I thought Gould had something to say when playing Bach, and I still even enjoy the I Musici recordings of Vivaldi. ...But I like Leonhart on Bach and Il Giardino Armonico on Vivaldi too. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning
At 09:26 AM 12/18/2005, Daniel Shoskes wrote: On Dec 18, 2005, at 8:49 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: . Why am I getting back to the lute? I need one for my new post. I have just become Musician In Residence to a University for 3,500 nurses!!! Hmm. Shades of Antonio Vivaldi? Oops. Please pardon my sequential e-mail reading/replying redundancy. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
