[LUTE] New online continuo class
Hello, dear lutenist friends! I hope all of you are healthy and safe and making the best of your lockdown time. I wanted to spread the word about a new online continuo class that Prof. Joseph Gascho and I are offering. Iâd be grateful if youâd spend a moment thinking about who might be interested in this and forwarding them this message. For those of you who donât know Joe, heâs an exceptionally gifted harpsichordist and teacher, and very beloved of all of his students at Univ. Michigan and elsewhere. He has been leading the evening continuo class at Oberlin Baroque Performance Institute for some years now, and I always make it habit to drop by the class during breaks in faculty rehearsal. It always energizes after a long day me to see a room full of singers and instrumentalists of various experience levels happily engaging in the material and learning together (in the room are four harpsichords facing a white board onto which music is projected, plus lutes, theorbos, viols, etc.). When the âvirtualâ BPI happened a couple of weeks ago, I offered to be Joeâs assistant for the class and we had a blast doing it together on Zoom. Several people asked if weâd keep it going, so weâre giving it a try. This first class is an introduction to continuo that is appropriate for both lutenists/keyboardists without extensive continuo experience, and also for singers, string/wind players, and conductors. Itâs less a figured bass class and more a holistic approach to continuo. Itâs also interactive and FUN. The tuition is just $100 USD but we can offer a couple of scholarships. I donât believe the lute list server allows attachments, but [1]here is a link to the course flyer. The text without the images is also pasted below. Thank you in advance for your help with this. If this is a success we may offer more specialized classes in the future. Onward! Lucas Harris Joseph Gascho and Lucas Harris are pleased to announce a two-week online course: An Introduction to Basso Continuo for all musicians July 27 & 30, August 3 & 6 (Monday & Thursday evenings) 7:00-8:30pm Eastern Standard Time Tuition: $100 USD / $135 CAD (limited financial aid available) Platform: Zoom Studying basso continuo is one of the most effective ways to improve your musicianship by deepening your knowledge of harmony. It combines the concepts of music theory with the skills of practicing musicians, providing a framework for interpreting Baroque & early Classical music. Though some basics of figured bass are covered, this course takes a more holistic view of basso continuo, considering how the parameters of continuo realization adapt to the expression of each musical phrase. Using clear and friendly instruction, we aim to engage with players of melodic instruments (string & wind players), singers, and conductors, in addition to lutenists and keyboard players. Class topics: July 27: The Impact of Basso Continuo: Improving knowledge, musicianship, and performance July 30: Becoming an Articulate Musician: Tools for shaping bass and melodic lines August 3: Whoâs Afraid of Parallel Fifths? Rules and guidelines for correct & creative voice-leading and realization August 6: Collaborative Continuo Skills Score preparation, rehearsal techniques, and the basso continuo solfège system All participants will receive access to a Google Drive library of basso continuo resources. Have questions? Please email us at: joseph.gascho[at]gmail.com / lucasharris[at]live.ca To sign up, please see payment and registration info here: https://forms.gle/3J5Grw8x6GzLqWV27 Harpsichordist Joseph Gascho enjoys a multifaceted musical career as a solo and collaborative keyboardist, conductor, teacher, and recording producer. Recent performing highlights include concerts with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, a solo recital and masterclass for the Japan Harpsichord Society, and an all-Bach program as guest conductor with Apollo's Fire, which he led âwith energy, authority and a conducting technique that inspired the musicians he led to perform at their highest level...finding the heart of each piece from the outset, realizing fully the drama and emotion that, in lesser hands, can often be lost (The Cleveland Plain Dealer)." As associate professor of music at the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance, he teaches harpsichord, basso continuo, chamber music, improvisation and ornamentation, and co-directs the Baroque Chamber Orchestra. He was rece
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Many thanks to everyone for their advice and pointers to some excellent resources! Plenty of study coming up... :-) Regards .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Don't go crazy over this. Arpeggio: I think it was Telemann who said: "Playing continuo is not chopping cucumbers." He meant the harpsichord, but still a valid point. Play clear bass notes and make nice clouds above to fill rhythmic voids of the singer. If the voice has rhythm, go with it more tightly. I think it is also very important to play according to the affect of the lyrics (dynamics, density, suspensions etc.) If you don't know what to play, just play the bass notes. You don't need to improvise perfect 4 part vocal counterpoint. People back then used lots of parallel fifth and octaves in continuo playing, and no one cared. It just happens. If you play with more people: Usually more than one instrument is used in continuo, according to the lyrics (see Monteverdi, "L'Orfeo" for inspiration, he documented which instruments were used in the performance). You can also compose continuo for your songs, but that's not really the point of it... On 05.02.20 15:03, Christopher Wilke wrote: Hi Mark, Everyone has given solid advice. However, the things suggested are for the long term project of learning historically-informed continuo practice. That's great, but it's frankly not very helpful starting in a pinch. The olden ones thought about harmony very differently than we do and they explain it from that perspective. We're completely comfortable with the idea of just immediately grabbing an isolated C major chord or f minor or Eb7#9b13 or what have you. Back in the day, however, chords were conceived as contrapuntal concurrences of melodic strands in context above a bass which was itself one of those strands. It takes some reverse engineering of modern concepts to understand the semantics of the sources. But there's no need to dive into that head work at the beginning. It sounds like you just need practical advice on how to come up with an accompaniment that sounds musical. I suggest writing in the chords just as if it's a jazz/pop lead sheet. For example, for an F note with a 6, you would write dm/F; for E 6/4, you write am/E, etc. Don't even worry about voice leading right now. There will be no difference doing this for 13-course as long as you know the chords in that tuning. (And kudos if you do!) This is just to get started. By all means, refine as you go and investigate the resources others have mentioned. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 9:36 PM, Mark Probert wrote: Hi, all. A bit of an open-ended question here. Suppose I given a piece of early Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and "arpeggiate the triads". Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? Many thanks .. mark. [1] [2]https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_io_n on_ardisco_(Claudio_Monteverdi) To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_io_non_ardisco_ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Hi Mark, Everyone has given solid advice. However, the things suggested are for the long term project of learning historically-informed continuo practice. That's great, but it's frankly not very helpful starting in a pinch. The olden ones thought about harmony very differently than we do and they explain it from that perspective. We're completely comfortable with the idea of just immediately grabbing an isolated C major chord or f minor or Eb7#9b13 or what have you. Back in the day, however, chords were conceived as contrapuntal concurrences of melodic strands in context above a bass which was itself one of those strands. It takes some reverse engineering of modern concepts to understand the semantics of the sources. But there's no need to dive into that head work at the beginning. It sounds like you just need practical advice on how to come up with an accompaniment that sounds musical. I suggest writing in the chords just as if it's a jazz/pop lead sheet. For example, for an F note with a 6, you would write dm/F; for E 6/4, you write am/E, etc. Don't even worry about voice leading right now. There will be no difference doing this for 13-course as long as you know the chords in that tuning. (And kudos if you do!) This is just to get started. By all means, refine as you go and investigate the resources others have mentioned. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, February 4, 2020, 9:36 PM, Mark Probert wrote: Hi, all. A bit of an open-ended question here. Suppose I given a piece of early Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and "arpeggiate the triads". Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? Many thanks .. mark. [1] [2]https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_io_n on_ardisco_(Claudio_Monteverdi) To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_io_non_ardisco_ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Realise the part in this work by Monteverdi without the use of 6 chords, as generally outlined in the rule of octave, and maybe appreciate the musical issues in this period and style of music.. As you say, the rule of the octave became part of the usual teaching apparatus later than 'the early XVII c' (although to be fair to M the 8th and 9th books are quite later works from around the mid century) but, of course, this does not mean it wasn't employed previously! In practice it generally produces a harmonisation in accord with the upper lines - using 53 chords on every step of the scale is not a general feature of this mid-baroque period. But each to their own.. MH On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 12:24:57 GMT, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: I agree with Konstantin on that! Monteverdi is half way between modality and tonality whereas Campion is completely tonal already... Best wishes, Jean-Marie > Le 5 févr. 2020 à 13:09, Konstantin Shchenikov <[1]konstantin.n...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >  Mr. Hodgson, > You certainly have your right to disagree. Could you just satisfy my > curiosity by pointing me out the sources of the early XVII c, > describing the rules of octave? > All sources I read tells the opposite: no connection with steps of the > scale, such a thing has not even been mentioned. Only connection with > scale - natural or #/b intervals above the bass, depending not on the > step of the bass (as octave rule does), but depending on the next step > of the bass (bass movements). > I wouldn't overcomplicate mr. Probert's task, rules by Bianchiardi are > more simple than octave rule. And if one has a little idea about > Monteverdi's style, things cannot be clarified in a couple of words. > Here is Agazzari, for instance, page 7 of the PDF contains the good > example of realisation, it might be good for the beginning. Just play > and analyze. > [1][2]https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stro men > ti_(Agazzari%2C_Agostino) > If one has time, the good idea come through the sources and get the > idea (or meet in person someone more experienced). If not, just don't > take so much care and do your best for now. As I told, I see no big > problem with d-minor tuning. > In Monteverdi's times continuo is more simple in terms of harmony, my > teachers (like Andrew Lawrence King) told me to avoid complicated > figuring most of the time. > 53 or 6 chords, 7/6 and 4/3 suspensions are good solution for most of > the time (and 5/4-5/3 without 6/4 - 5/3 for most of the cadances) and > let the voice do the rest - dissonances, clashes, dischords - if it's > occurs, are stylish. > F.T.Arnold in his book "the Art of Accompaniment from a thorough-bass" > showed a lot of examples. > And good luck with this beautiful music! > K. > ÃÃ, 5 Ãà µà ²Ã. 2020 à ³., 14:02 Martyn Hodgson > <[2][3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: > >I can't agree with that assertion - it mostly does. But, in any >case, >I didn't wish to over-complicate the matter for Mr Probert >MH >On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:53:14 GMT, Konstantin >Shchenikov ><[3][4]konstantin.n...@gmail.com> wrote: >WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's >times! >In fact, theory has changed. >In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in >what >direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of >the >scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a >suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti >ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in >Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di >chitarrone". >Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical >treatment >and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare >sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above. >Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which >absents >on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the >other >continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
I agree with Konstantin on that! Monteverdi is half way between modality and tonality whereas Campion is completely tonal already... Best wishes, Jean-Marie > Le 5 févr. 2020 à 13:09, Konstantin Shchenikov a > écrit : > > Mr. Hodgson, > You certainly have your right to disagree. Could you just satisfy my > curiosity by pointing me out the sources of the early XVII c, > describing the rules of octave? > All sources I read tells the opposite: no connection with steps of the > scale, such a thing has not even been mentioned. Only connection with > scale - natural or #/b intervals above the bass, depending not on the > step of the bass (as octave rule does), but depending on the next step > of the bass (bass movements). > I wouldn't overcomplicate mr. Probert's task, rules by Bianchiardi are > more simple than octave rule. And if one has a little idea about > Monteverdi's style, things cannot be clarified in a couple of words. > Here is Agazzari, for instance, page 7 of the PDF contains the good > example of realisation, it might be good for the beginning. Just play > and analyze. > [1]https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stromen > ti_(Agazzari%2C_Agostino) > If one has time, the good idea come through the sources and get the > idea (or meet in person someone more experienced). If not, just don't > take so much care and do your best for now. As I told, I see no big > problem with d-minor tuning. > In Monteverdi's times continuo is more simple in terms of harmony, my > teachers (like Andrew Lawrence King) told me to avoid complicated > figuring most of the time. > 53 or 6 chords, 7/6 and 4/3 suspensions are good solution for most of > the time (and 5/4-5/3 without 6/4 - 5/3 for most of the cadances) and > let the voice do the rest - dissonances, clashes, dischords - if it's > occurs, are stylish. > F.T.Arnold in his book "the Art of Accompaniment from a thorough-bass" > showed a lot of examples. > And good luck with this beautiful music! > K. > ÑÑ, 5 ÑевÑ. 2020 г., 14:02 Martyn Hodgson > <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: > >I can't agree with that assertion - it mostly does. But, in any > case, >I didn't wish to over-complicate the matter for Mr Probert >MH >On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:53:14 GMT, Konstantin > Shchenikov ><[3]konstantin.n...@gmail.com> wrote: >WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's > times! >In fact, theory has changed. >In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in > what >direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of > the >scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a >suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti >ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in >Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di >chitarrone". >Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical > treatment > and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare >sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above. >Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which > absents >on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the > other >continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have > octave >basses. I, personally, see no problem with d-minor tuning, but > the >sound is different from archlutes, so the whole idea must be > close, but >not the same. >Good luck! >ÃÃ, 5 Ãà µÃ ²Ã. 2020 à ³. à ² 13:20, Martyn Hodgson ><[1][4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: > Howard's advice is very sound. > In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass > part > using the > 'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where > the > bass is > sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - > 6 or > 4-3) to > taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper > lines is > perfectly acceptable in this repertoire). > Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that > for > example, > bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] > [(5
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Mr. Hodgson, You certainly have your right to disagree. Could you just satisfy my curiosity by pointing me out the sources of the early XVII c, describing the rules of octave? All sources I read tells the opposite: no connection with steps of the scale, such a thing has not even been mentioned. Only connection with scale - natural or #/b intervals above the bass, depending not on the step of the bass (as octave rule does), but depending on the next step of the bass (bass movements). I wouldn't overcomplicate mr. Probert's task, rules by Bianchiardi are more simple than octave rule. And if one has a little idea about Monteverdi's style, things cannot be clarified in a couple of words. Here is Agazzari, for instance, page 7 of the PDF contains the good example of realisation, it might be good for the beginning. Just play and analyze. [1]https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stromen ti_(Agazzari%2C_Agostino) If one has time, the good idea come through the sources and get the idea (or meet in person someone more experienced). If not, just don't take so much care and do your best for now. As I told, I see no big problem with d-minor tuning. In Monteverdi's times continuo is more simple in terms of harmony, my teachers (like Andrew Lawrence King) told me to avoid complicated figuring most of the time. 53 or 6 chords, 7/6 and 4/3 suspensions are good solution for most of the time (and 5/4-5/3 without 6/4 - 5/3 for most of the cadances) and let the voice do the rest - dissonances, clashes, dischords - if it's occurs, are stylish. F.T.Arnold in his book "the Art of Accompaniment from a thorough-bass" showed a lot of examples. And good luck with this beautiful music! K. ÃÃ, 5 ÃõòÃ. 2020 ó., 14:02 Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: I can't agree with that assertion - it mostly does. But, in any case, I didn't wish to over-complicate the matter for Mr Probert MH On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:53:14 GMT, Konstantin Shchenikov <[3]konstantin.n...@gmail.com> wrote: WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's times! In fact, theory has changed. In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in what direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of the scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di chitarrone". Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical treatment and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above. Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which absents on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the other continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have octave basses. I, personally, see no problem with d-minor tuning, but the sound is different from archlutes, so the whole idea must be close, but not the same. Good luck! ÃÃ, 5 Ãà µà ²Ã. 2020 à ³. à ² 13:20, Martyn Hodgson <[1][4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: Howard's advice is very sound. In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass part using the 'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where the bass is sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - 6 or 4-3) to taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper lines is perfectly acceptable in this repertoire). Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that for example, bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] [(5)4 - # ]. Whether you play a major chord on bar 24 or a bare fifth is, perhaps, also a matter of taste. Insert the usual cadential formula as necessary, for example, a 4 - 3 in bar 27 Then simply play the chords (three parts is probably all you'll need) Here's a clean version to work on [1][2][5]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf MH On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 07:22
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
I can't agree with that assertion - it mostly does. But, in any case, I didn't wish to over-complicate the matter for Mr Probert MH On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:53:14 GMT, Konstantin Shchenikov wrote: WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's times! In fact, theory has changed. In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in what direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of the scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di chitarrone". Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical treatment and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above. Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which absents on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the other continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have octave basses. I, personally, see no problem with d-minor tuning, but the sound is different from archlutes, so the whole idea must be close, but not the same. Good luck! ÃÃ, 5 ÃõòÃ. 2020 ó. ò 13:20, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: Howard's advice is very sound. In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass part using the 'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where the bass is sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - 6 or 4-3) to taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper lines is perfectly acceptable in this repertoire). Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that for example, bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] [(5)4 - # ]. Whether you play a major chord on bar 24 or a bare fifth is, perhaps, also a matter of taste. Insert the usual cadential formula as necessary, for example, a 4 - 3 in bar 27 Then simply play the chords (three parts is probably all you'll need) Here's a clean version to work on [1][2]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf MH On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 07:22:51 GMT, howard posner <[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert <[2][4]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Suppose I given a piece of early > Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of > specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to > support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). > > I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount > of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and > "arpeggiate the triads". Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if by "play the indicated root" you mean assuming the bass note is the root of the chord. But if you know the basic rules (you're familiar with the rule of the octave?) you can get most of the harmonies right without too much trouble. > Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone > point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? If you want to learn how to do it, I'd start with Nigel North's "Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo." If you just want to slap something together for a specific piece, you might get a realized version (which will probably be intended for piano) and alter it to suit your needs. > And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? The theory doesn't change. A major chord is a major chord and a suspension is a suspension. You'll have higher notes than a theorbo has, but less volume and sustain. Sometimes this means playing a busier accompaniment to keep the sound going (good luck with that if you're singing at the same time). To get on or off this list see list information at [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 2. mailto:[7]prob
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's times!
In fact, theory has changed.
In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in what
direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of the
scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a
suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti
ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in
Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di
chitarrone".
Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical treatment
and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare
sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above.
Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which absents
on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the other
continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have octave
basses. I, personally, see no problem with d-minor tuning, but the
sound is different from archlutes, so the whole idea must be close, but
not the same.
Good luck!
ÃÃ, 5 ÃõòÃ. 2020 ó. ò 13:20, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Howard's advice is very sound.
In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass part
using the
'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where the
bass is
sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - 6 or
4-3) to
taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper lines is
perfectly acceptable in this repertoire).
Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that for
example,
bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] [(5)4 -
# ].
Whether you play a major chord on bar 24 or a bare fifth is,
perhaps,
also a matter of taste.
Insert the usual cadential formula as necessary, for example, a 4
- 3
in bar 27
Then simply play the chords (three parts is probably all you'll
need)
Here's a clean version to work on
[1][2]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf
MH
On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 07:22:51 GMT, howard posner
<[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert
<[2][4]probe...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Suppose I given a piece of early
> Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by
way of
> specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line
to
> support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines).
>
> I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain
amount
> of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated
root" and
> "arpeggiate the triads".
Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if by
"play the
indicated root" you mean assuming the bass note is the root of
the
chord. But if you know the basic rules (you're familiar with the
rule
of the octave?) you can get most of the harmonies right without
too
much trouble.
> Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can
anyone
> point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a
lute?
If you want to learn how to do it, I'd start with Nigel North's
"Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo." If you just
want
to slap something together for a specific piece, you might get a
realized version (which will probably be intended for piano) and
alter
it to suit your needs.
> And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than
theorbo?
The theory doesn't change. A major chord is a major chord and a
suspension is a suspension. You'll have higher notes than a
theorbo
has, but less volume and sustain. Sometimes this means playing a
busier
accompaniment to keep the sound going (good luck with that if
you're
singing at the same time).
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. [6]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf
2. mailto:[7]probe...@gmail.com
3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
2. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf
3. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
4. mailto:probe...@gmail.com
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf
7. mailto:probe...@gmail.com
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Howard's advice is very sound. In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass part using the 'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where the bass is sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - 6 or 4-3) to taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper lines is perfectly acceptable in this repertoire). Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that for example, bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] [(5)4 - # ]. Whether you play a major chord on bar 24 or a bare fifth is, perhaps, also a matter of taste. Insert the usual cadential formula as necessary, for example, a 4 - 3 in bar 27 Then simply play the chords (three parts is probably all you'll need) Here's a clean version to work on [1]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf MH On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 07:22:51 GMT, howard posner wrote: > On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert <[2]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Suppose I given a piece of early > Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of > specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to > support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). > > I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount > of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and > "arpeggiate the triads". Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if by "play the indicated root" you mean assuming the bass note is the root of the chord. But if you know the basic rules (you're familiar with the rule of the octave?) you can get most of the harmonies right without too much trouble. > Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone > point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? If you want to learn how to do it, I'd start with Nigel North's "Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo." If you just want to slap something together for a specific piece, you might get a realized version (which will probably be intended for piano) and alter it to suit your needs. > And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? The theory doesn't change. A major chord is a major chord and a suspension is a suspension. You'll have higher notes than a theorbo has, but less volume and sustain. Sometimes this means playing a busier accompaniment to keep the sound going (good luck with that if you're singing at the same time). To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
Don't arpeggiate. [1]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/continuo-playing-on-baroque-lut e-lesson-four-first-practical-step/ On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 at 03:36, Mark Probert <[2]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, all. A bit of an open-ended question here. Suppose I given a piece of early Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and "arpeggiate the triads". Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? Many thanks .. mark. [1] [3]https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_i o_non_ardisco_(Claudio_Monteverdi) To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [6]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com *** -- References 1. https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/continuo-playing-on-baroque-lute-lesson-four-first-practical-step/ 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_io_non_ardisco_(Claudio_Monteverdi) 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 6. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...
> On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert wrote: > > Suppose I given a piece of early > Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of > specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to > support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). > > I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount > of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and > "arpeggiate the triads”. Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if by “play the indicated root” you mean assuming the bass note is the root of the chord. But if you know the basic rules (you’re familiar with the rule of the octave?) you can get most of the harmonies right without too much trouble. > Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone > point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? If you want to learn how to do it, I’d start with Nigel North’s "Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo.” If you just want to slap something together for a specific piece, you might get a realized version (which will probably be intended for piano) and alter it to suit your needs. > And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? The theory doesn’t change. A major chord is a major chord and a suspension is a suspension. You’ll have higher notes than a theorbo has, but less volume and sustain. Sometimes this means playing a busier accompaniment to keep the sound going (good luck with that if you’re singing at the same time). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Realizing a passible continuo line...
Hi, all. A bit of an open-ended question here. Suppose I given a piece of early Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and "arpeggiate the triads". Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo? Many thanks .. mark. [1] https://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Ardo_e_scoprir,_ahi_lasso,_io_non_ardisco_(Claudio_Monteverdi) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)
Let's say: Bass line and chords played by guitars or keyboards. I hate to see Stage Pianos excluded from the continuo gig :) On 12.09.19 23:28, Howard Posner wrote: The rhythm guitar and bass Sent from my iPhone On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams wrote: If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm guitarist in a modern band? Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)
The rhythm guitar and bass Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams > wrote: > > If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a > non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm > guitarist in a modern band? > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Continuo (defined)
If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm guitarist in a modern band? Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?
Dear Jorg, I play continuo on theorbo and other plucked instruments and also employ the mandora/gallichon in nominal D tuning with a string length of 75cm (and also the large calchedon in nominal A tuning with sl 98cm) where the instrument is appropriate - ie mostly second to last quarter of the 18thC. There are quite a lot of songs and concerted instrumental works from the mid-18thC for the smaller instrument as obbligato with fully written out accompaniments and these provide good sources for the suitable style of continuo realisations on this instrument. Of course, the repertoire where the smaller gallichon/mandora (ie D or later E nominal) is most appropriate is not really the baroque period but the pre-classical with its longer harmonic lines and where things like measured arpeggios etc are increasingly employed. Indeed, much like some early five/six string/course guitar sources of the late 18th/early 19th C (eg Porro, Scheidler, De Call, Molitor, et als). As you remark, the instrument can be quite loud and thus provides a good continuo instrument for this later period (especially for works from German-speaking lands - but not exclusively). Incidentally, the usual intervals are not the same as on the renaissance lute (with a third between the fourth and third course) but as on the guitar (with the third between the third and second course). regards Martyn On Thursday, 12 September 2019, 08:17:00 BST, Jörg Hilbert wrote: Dear all, I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it's quite sonorous. Has anybody experiences with this? Thanks Jörg To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?
I do on occasion. I have a huge 10-course in D 78cm or something similar). Sometimes I chicken out and play transposed parts. If the D-lute stint is a bit longer I bite the bullet and play at pitch. Not so difficult (but I play easy continuo on it: early Italian music), no complicated high baroque. David On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 09:16, Jörg Hilbert <[1]hilbert.jo...@t-online.de> wrote: Dear all, I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it's quite sonorous. Has anybody experiences with this? Thanks Jörg To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:hilbert.jo...@t-online.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?
Dear all, I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it’s quite sonorous. Has anybody experiences with this? Thanks Jörg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Early Chitarrone Continuo
Hi everyone, A while ago I was corresponding with a lutenist who said, regarding the really large theorbos in Monteverdi: ‘I believe the really big ones were intended for playing bass lines - probably mostly single line, but ornamented in a way that was normal then but is considered a bit weird now - with some chords.’ Would anyone else have any thoughts on this? Any references? I’m using a large archlute with an organ for some Gabrieli, Croce, and Monteverdi and would love to try this. from sunny Singapore, Edward C. Yong τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Intensive courses about basso continuo
Hi everyone, And here you have the last one :) We have interviewed Pablo Zapico about the intensive classes that he is teaching mainly here in Spain about basso continuo. Hopefully he will publish a book about the topic quite soon. [1]http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/cursos-intensivos-de-bajo-continuo-en trevista-a-pablo-zapico/ Again, translation is available on the top left menu. Regards -- Cuerdas Pulsadas [2]www.cuerdaspulsadas.com || [3]h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com [4]BLOG || [5]AGENDA || [6]TIMELINE [7]blog [8]facebook [9]twitter [10]instagram -- References 1. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/cursos-intensivos-de-bajo-continuo-entrevista-a-pablo-zapico/ 2. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/ 3. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com 4. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog 5. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/ 6. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline 7. http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog 8. http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas 9. http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas 10. http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
Otherwise music students is a fantastic page turning technology. Max Max Langer, PhD 20 rue Diderot 38000 Grenoble France +33 631 94 21 92 On 15 March 2017 at 17:53, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: > A melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal > with a full score. Too many page turns. > > A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when > did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in > modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've > played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, > often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the > Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in > (relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least > some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was > published as part music; continuo is just another part book. > > Guy > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of howard posner > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners > > It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo > part. I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page > turns. > >> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong >> wrote: >> >> Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, >> Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full >> score, assuming both have the same figures? > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
A melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal with a full score. Too many page turns. A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in (relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was published as part music; continuo is just another part book. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part. I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns. > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong > wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, > Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full > score, assuming both have the same figures? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
When accompanying a soloist, I prefer to see his/part. Otherwise bass
part is more convenient. But I can live with either score or part.
Recits are the exception: I want to read these along.
David
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 at 17:19, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
wrote:
It's always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the
continuo part. I've done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid
inconvenient page turns.
> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong
<[2]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or
full
>score, assuming both have the same figures?
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
***
David van Ooijen
[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
--
References
1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part. I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns. > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong > wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, > Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full > score, assuming both have the same figures? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
Hello Edward, There have been positive comments on this list about using a tablet and foot-operated page turner. I’m thinking adopting this solution when the next iPad Pro is released, which I believe will be within a few weeks. Miles > On Mar 15, 2017, at 9:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong > wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, > Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full > score, assuming both have the same figures? > I find that playing from a score means I can get my bearings better but > have to flip pages more, no easy task when both hands are occupied with > playing. That's when I sometimes wish I either played from a bass part > to reduce page turns or had a page-turner. Does anyone use a > page-turner? > Curious to hear your thoughts. > From sunny Singapore, > Edward C. Yong > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full score, assuming both have the same figures? I find that playing from a score means I can get my bearings better but have to flip pages more, no easy task when both hands are occupied with playing. That's when I sometimes wish I either played from a bass part to reduce page turns or had a page-turner. Does anyone use a page-turner? Curious to hear your thoughts. From sunny Singapore, Edward C. Yong ÏοÏÏο ηλεκÏÏονικÏν ÏαÏÏ Î´Ïομείον εκ είΦÏÎ½Î¿Ï ÎµÎ¼ÎµÏ ÎµÏÎμÏθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. æ¤é»åéµä»¶ç¼éäºèªå¾iPhoneã This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
Indeed, unless you set your lutes on fire, the Baroque flamboyant has little to do with the history of music. I have been personally guilty of over simplification, mostly because I had to organize my computer folders according to some kind of scheme. I won't go into the kind of geographical distortion I had to apply to the European continent for similar reasons. My current scheme is based on tunings: Renaissance G-tuning, transitional, baroque D-minor, ... Romantic guitar, but it obviously leaves something to be desired. Theorboes don't fit in and would require more disk space. Classification is important as a matter of practical interest, but its connection to reality remains anecdotal. Jorge Luis Borges said it better than I in one of his stories. He was a librarian by trade, so he knew what he was lying about in terms of classification. As long as you don't confuse your own fictions for reality, you should be fine. Unless you meet a classical guitar player who insists on saying he is playing "Baroque guitar music" -- meaning a transcription of a piece for harpsichord by Handel adapted for the 6-string Spanish guitar by some post-Modern era dude. Then, dialog could become murky. But that is what we invented quotation marks for. Incidentally, in literature, the Baroque is just not relevant as a period or a useful concept. Amazingly, English majors have survived. In conclusion, put quotation marks around everything, you hopey-dopey changey full-time lutenists, preferably with those crooked fingers of yours, and hope that somehow somewhere it will make sense to someone out there. Or just use the good old alphabetical order and leave out Chinese music -- if you don't have a good grasp of Unicode and the pipa. On 01/21/2016 09:28 PM, howard posner wrote: On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:16 PM, howard posner wrote: "Baroque" is a n art historians’ term I decided to abort that message, but hit send instead of delete. I was going to [not] point out that "baroque music” means no more than “music written during the period that art historians, for reasons that have nothing to do with music, have named “baroque.” I suppose you can find the occasional “distorted” or “bizarre” music from this time, but it’s not the most useful way of thinking of music written between about 1600 and about 1750 (nor do I think Jim meant to say it was, which is why I reached for the delete button in the first place); and would be misleading in most cases. Carry on. Don’t mind me. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:16 PM, howard posner wrote: > > "Baroque" is a n art historians’ term I decided to abort that message, but hit send instead of delete. I was going to [not] point out that "baroque music” means no more than “music written during the period that art historians, for reasons that have nothing to do with music, have named “baroque.” I suppose you can find the occasional “distorted” or “bizarre” music from this time, but it’s not the most useful way of thinking of music written between about 1600 and about 1750 (nor do I think Jim meant to say it was, which is why I reached for the delete button in the first place); and would be misleading in most cases. Carry on. Don’t mind me. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 2:32 PM, jsl...@verizon.net wrote: > > Finally, the very term "baroque" was coined to describe extravagant or > even bizarre ornamentation. The divisions of Bassano and his > contemporaries can be viewed as examples of this style. "Baroque" is a n art historians’ term To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
On 21/01/2016 15:42, Anton Hoeger wrote: I really don't understand some of you lute players. I wrote these kind of intabulations since 30 years, and every week writes an lute player,...do you know anyWhy did not you look on my page? I don't understand why you ignore my hard work! There is a lot of examples, that my intabulations sounds very well in the net. So don't be afraid to play music intabulated by me! They don't cost anything! In best case a mention. Thats all. And is Basano really Baroque Music? Sorry Baroque begins earliest 1630/40! Hello Anton Yes, I should have looked at your work! I also was thinking that Baroque music begins about 1630/40. Or, the music that the treble recorder would want to play would be no earlier than that. Many - most - of your arrangements are for music before that time, I think. I wonder if you are aiming your arrangements mainly at professional performers? They can be quite difficult and could require a lot of practice. I've looked through your list for music after 1630s/40s but, looking at some pieces, I can't find music for lute and treble recorder (in F). In my experience, recorder players (or non-plucked instrument players generally) playing just for fun, like to sight read a lot of material. I'm looking for simple continuo lute parts. But I do recognise the huge amount of work you have put into your arrangements. Stuart best Anton Attaignant, Pierre Amour vault trop Tr; lute [1]http://imslp.org/wiki/Amour_vault_trop_(Attaingnant,_Pierre) Anonymous 1. The Scotish Gigg (MS. Drexel 5612) Tr; lute x [2]http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Scotish_Gigg_(Anonymous) Anonymous 10. The Tobacco Pipe (MS. Drexel 5612) Tr; lute [3]http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Tobacco_Pipe_Nr._10_(MS._Drexel_5612)_(Ano nymous)#IMSLP275260 Anonymous 7. A Toy (Ms. Drexel 5612) Tr; lute x [4]http://imslp.org/wiki/A_Toy_Nr._7_(Ms._Drexel_5612)_(Anonymous) Anonymous A Division (Jacobean Consort Music) Tr; lute [5]http://imslp.org/wiki/A_Division_(Anonymous) Anonymous Aria di Fiorenza (Chigi Manuscript) Tr; lute [6]http://imslp.org/wiki/Aria_di_Fiorenza_(Anonymous)#IMSLP275475 Anonymous Dance with Variations Tr; lute x [7]http://imslp.org/wiki/Dance_with_Variations_(Anonymous)#IMSLP275645 Anonymous La Perichone Tr; Bass; lute [8]http://imslp.org/wiki/La_Perichone_(Anonymous) Anonymous Magnificat a4 concertate e Breue Tr; A; T; lute [9]http://imslp.org/wiki/Magnificat_concertate_e_Breue_(Anonymous) Anonymous Misere (Jacobean Consort Music) Tr; lute [10]http://imslp.org/wiki/Misere_(Anonymous) Neresheimer Orgelbuch O Solutaris Tr; lute [11]http://imslp.org/wiki/O_Solutaris_(Anonymous)#IMSLP348537 Anonymous Why ask you? Tr; lute [12]http://imslp.org/wiki/Why_Ask_You?_(Anonymous) Attaignant, Pierre Amour vault trop Tr; lute [13]http://imslp.org/wiki/Amour_vault_trop_(Attaingnant,_Pierre) Attaignant, Pierre Jay mis mon cueur Tr; lute [14]http://imslp.org/wiki/Jay_mis_mon_cueur_(Attaingnant,_Pierre) Attaignant, Pierre Je demeure seule esgaree Tr; lute [15]http://imslp.org/wiki/Je_demeure_seule_esgaree_(Attaingnant,_Pierre ) Attaignant, Pierre Le cueur est mien Tr; lute [16]http://imslp.org/wiki/Le_cueur_est_mien_(Attaingnant,_Pierre) Bertoldo, Sperindio Canzon Francese Tr; lute x [17]http://imslp.org/wiki/Canzoni_francese_intavolate_per_sonar_d'organ o_(Bertoldo,_Sperindio) Bull, John Almain I Tr; lute [18]http://imslp.org/wiki/Almain_I_(Bull,_John)#IMSLP286475 Bull, John Praeludium (CLXXXIV) Tr; lute [19]http://imslp.org/wiki/Praeludium_(CLXXXIV)_(Bull,_John) Bull, John Dr. Bull's Jewell (CXXXVIII) Tr; lute x [20]http://imslp.org/wiki/Dr._Bull's_Jewell,_FWB_CXXXVIII_(Bull,_John) Adson, John Courtely Masquing Ayres -1 Tr; 2 lutes [21]http://imslp.org/wiki/Courtly_Masquing_Ayres_(Adson,_John) Cabanilles, Juan Tiento de Contras de 4DEG tono ( M386 No. 22) 2 Trebles & lute [22]http://imslp.org/wiki/Tiento_No.22_(Cabanilles,_Juan) Cabanilles, Juan Tiento 82 Sobre el Imno de Apostoles Tr; Git x [23]http://imslp.org/wiki/Tiento_No.82_(Cabanilles,_Juan) Cabanilles, Juan Tiento 86 Tr; lute [24]http://imslp.org/wiki/Tiento_No.86_(Cabanilles,_Juan) Cabanilles, Juan Tiento No.26 Tr; Git x [25]http://imslp.org/wiki/Tiento_No.26_%28Cabanilles,_Juan%29 Cabezon, Hernando de Susana un jour Tr; A; T; lute x [26]http://imslp.org/wiki/Susana_un_jur_(Cabezon,_Hernando_de) Cabezon, Antonio Si bona suscepimus (Verdelot) Tr; B; lute [27]http://imslp.org/wiki/Si_bona_suscepimus_(Cabezon,_Antonio_de) Cesare, Giov. Martino La Ioannina 2 Trebles & lute [28]http://imslp.org/wiki/Canzona-_'La_Ioannina'_(Cesare,_Giovanni_Mart ino) Chilese, Bastian Canzon vigesimaseconda a` 5 2 Trebles & 2 lutes
[LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
Get the playford collection and strum along, before you know it you'll develop your own bass line. Or get the 4 part arrangements for a bass line provided. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of jsl...@verizon.net Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 10:07 AM To: s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute Stuart and All, I'd try to find some of the London Pro Musica division viol series on popular songs like "Susanne Un Jour" and "Frais et Gailliard" with divisions by Bassano and others. The divisions for recorder or viol are challenging, but the continuo parts, in lute tablature, are pretty straightforward. The seasoned continuo guys tend to dismiss the accompaniments as bland, but I actually think they're fairly good, and one could spruce them up if desired. Cheers, Jim Stimson On 01/21/16, WALSH STUART wrote: I know it's much the best thing to learn continuo but I wonder if anyone can recommend some ready-to-play continuo parts to go with music for treble recorder. It seems the recorder player is very competent. I've got an 8-course Ren lute. (I have Peter Holman's two books 'The Division Recorder'. The ground basses are not difficult but I'm sure someone is likely to have some fully realised parts for Ren lute.) Stuart --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/
[LUTE] Re: looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
Stuart and All, I'd try to find some of the London Pro Musica division viol series on popular songs like "Susanne Un Jour" and "Frais et Gailliard" with divisions by Bassano and others. The divisions for recorder or viol are challenging, but the continuo parts, in lute tablature, are pretty straightforward. The seasoned continuo guys tend to dismiss the accompaniments as bland, but I actually think they're fairly good, and one could spruce them up if desired. Cheers, Jim Stimson On 01/21/16, WALSH STUART wrote: I know it's much the best thing to learn continuo but I wonder if anyone can recommend some ready-to-play continuo parts to go with music for treble recorder. It seems the recorder player is very competent. I've got an 8-course Ren lute. (I have Peter Holman's two books 'The Division Recorder'. The ground basses are not difficult but I'm sure someone is likely to have some fully realised parts for Ren lute.) Stuart --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/
[LUTE] looking for Baroque music for treble recorder with continuo for 8-course Renaissance lute
I know it's much the best thing to learn continuo but I wonder if anyone can recommend some ready-to-play continuo parts to go with music for treble recorder. It seems the recorder player is very competent. I've got an 8-course Ren lute. (I have Peter Holman's two books 'The Division Recorder'. The ground basses are not difficult but I'm sure someone is likely to have some fully realised parts for Ren lute.) Stuart --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Hi Ed I do whatever is needed and possible. This weekend I had rehearsals with a viol and a cembalo. I brought a 10-course in g and theorbo in a. Yesterday the cembalo was in Valotti, of which I am no fan and we ran into some problems (combined Renaissance & Baroque programme, flats as well as sharps in the continuo, and we each have to play two solo pieces for which we have to be happily in tune with ourselves as well). I asked for 1/6 comma meantone (aka Silbermann) and we agreed we'd give that a try today. It was a lot better. Pitch is never a problem, 415 it was this time, but if 440 (or 392, or 465, or whaetever in between), then I bring another lute (I have the luxury) but just crank up the theorbo (I don't have the luxury). As for tuning in between, of course, when needed. All those guts versus all those steel strings, whatever the temperature/humidiy changes in a concert situation, something has to give so someone will have to tune. I'm quicker in between pieces. The cembalo might retune in the break if it's too bad. It's all part of the game, but sometimes just playing guitar is easier. ;-) David > What do you do about temperaments? Do you play in equal for Baroque music? Do you discuss it ahead of time with the other continuo players? I've read that this is why lute and harpsichords didn't play together in the Renaissance. (I didn't say that, I read it) Do you decide on a base pitch? Presumably, the harpsichordist cannot change temperament without tuning. It might be possible to move some frets somewhat during an opera or long performance, but I guess retuning the long ones must wait until intermission. I'm curious as to what you do. > > On Feb 27, 2014, at 11:27 PM, David van Ooijen <[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > When I play (arch)lute or theorbo with harpsichord I'd like to think we > help eachother: the lute will make the sound of the harpsichord more > mellow whilst the harpsichord will give volume to the sound of the > lute. But one has to take care not to constantly double eachother. With > organ, the lute gives attack while the organ gives sustain. That's an > easier combination. > > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch > [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow > [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow 4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH >> From: howard posner >> To: Lutelist >> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >> >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall > wrote: >> >>> I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is >>> "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few > documents concerning De Visee's life". >>> >>> How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents > and what is idle fantasy? >> >> >> I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it > away. >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall wrote: > I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is > "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents > concerning De Visee's life". > > How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and > what is idle fantasy? I think This is all my imagination and conjecture pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life". How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? Why suggest that De Visee was born in Portugal if none of the surviving documents mention this. Why not Timbuctoo? And he hasn't even reproduced the facts from the surviving documents accurately. Monica - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise His own words leave no doubt and are far from misleading: "This is all my imagination and conjecture [...] it was this imagination that drove me to perform the pieces ..." In other words, the story in the CD-booklet is about motivation, not about historical facts." 'nough said David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
His own words leave no doubt and are far from misleading: "This is all my imagination and conjecture [...] it was this imagination that drove me to perform the pieces ..." In other words, the story in the CD-booklet is about motivation, not about historical facts." 'nough said David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I think it is you who cannot distinguish fact from fiction. The liner notes to Satoh's CD are a mishmash of known facts and pure fiction and it is far from obvious what is all his imagination and conjecture and what is actually true. Some people have certainly been mislead into thinking that it is an accurate account of De Visee's life. It does nothing to enhance his performance or our understanding of the music. Satoh is an influential figure in the lute world and I think he should be a bit more careful about putting into circulation information which could be regarded as deliberately misleading. Monica - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" Cc: "Lute List" Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 4:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Monica wrote: >> In the liner notes to his recent CD Toyohiko Satoh claimed that De Visee was Portuguese and came from a small town called Viseu near Coimbra. This is pure fiction - there is no evidence at all that this was so. << Utterly, completely and absolutely OT. But as Monica still appears to have trouble distinguishing fact from fiction in her reading, I think it's nice to help her by quoting myself from an earlier e-mail about this same utterly, completely and absolutely OT topic: "Toyohiko is speculating on how De Visee's retirement from public life might have influenced his compositions for Baroque lute, and links that to his own position in life and to his interpretations of De Visee's music. I quote from the liner notes of the CD: "This is all my imagination and conjecture [...] it was this imagination that drove me to perform the pieces ..." In other words, the story in the CD-booklet is about motivation, not about historical facts." I could also have quoted Gerschwin's "It Ain't Necessarily So". David - back to lurking-mode -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Monica wrote: >> In the liner notes to his recent CD Toyohiko Satoh claimed that De Visee was Portuguese and came from a small town called Viseu near Coimbra. This is pure fiction - there is no evidence at all that this was so. << Utterly, completely and absolutely OT. But as Monica still appears to have trouble distinguishing fact from fiction in her reading, I think it's nice to help her by quoting myself from an earlier e-mail about this same utterly, completely and absolutely OT topic: "Toyohiko is speculating on how De Visee's retirement from public life might have influenced his compositions for Baroque lute, and links that to his own position in life and to his interpretations of De Visee's music. I quote from the liner notes of the CD: "This is all my imagination and conjecture [...] it was this imagination that drove me to perform the pieces ..." In other words, the story in the CD-booklet is about motivation, not about historical facts." I could also have quoted Gerschwin's "It Ain't Necessarily So". David - back to lurking-mode -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thanks for the clarification. Also thanks to Monica for mentioning the doubtful Portuguese connection. On 28 Feb 2014, at 6:49 am, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > True we do not know exactly where de Visée was from, but he was probably born > in the Paris area and was active at court as early as 1680. In 1692 du Pradel > (aka de Blégny), in his list of masters for the guitar, mentions "de Vizé (a > very common spelling of his name at the time), à Luxembourg", which means he > lived near the Palais du Luxembourg and not the country of the same name... > > Best, > > Jean-Marie > > > -- > >> I am going off topic here, but do we really know where Robert de Visée is >> from? I recall finding an entry in a modern edition of Nicolas Blégny's Le >> livre commode (1692) about a certain Visée (spelt differently). He is said >> to be from one of the low countries, but I cannot remember which one. Of >> course, I could be totally wrong. >> >> On 28 Feb 2014, at 4:00 am, howard posner wrote: >> >>> >>> On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier >>> wrote: >>> Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) >>> >>> He was a Spaniard, and he used Google Translate. >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> -- > > --
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
This is a can of worms. In the liner notes to his recent CD Toyohiko Satoh claimed that De Visee was Portuguese and came from a small town called Viseu near Coimbra. This is pure fiction - there is no evidence at all that this was so. I haven't come across the suggestion that he was from the Low Countries. At the present time I don't think it is known where De Visee was born - in France perhaps Monica - Original Message - From: "Shaun Ng" To: "howard posner" Cc: "Lute List" Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 7:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise I am going off topic here, but do we really know where Robert de Visée is from? I recall finding an entry in a modern edition of Nicolas Blégny's Le livre commode (1692) about a certain Visée (spelt differently). He is said to be from one of the low countries, but I cannot remember which one. Of course, I could be totally wrong. On 28 Feb 2014, at 4:00 am, howard posner wrote: On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) He was a Spaniard, and he used Google Translate. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Not sure what point you are trying to make here - but they did write in this rather convoluted style and were not always terribly literate. But it is not helpful to try and reproduce this in a different language - it makes no more sense like that than a Google translation and simply adds to the confusion. It seems to me perfectly clear what he is saying - I have read his preface and translated it previously without being aware that there was really any problem with it. Moreover - my sister who was bi-lingual and often helped me with French translations was even freer in the way she translated things. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "'Lute List'" Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 5:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Exactly Monica, but I tried to keep the same awkwardness in English as the French original conveys and did not want to brush it up s mauch ;-) ! All the best but obviously YOU understand FRench ;-), Jean-Marie -- Well I don't know about French grammar but I would translate this passage as I beg those who know how to compose and who are not familiar with the guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes break the rules; the instrument requires it and above all it is necessary to satisfy the ear. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Shaun Ng" ; "Monica Hall" Cc: "'Lute List'" Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise "Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne connoistreront pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout." Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682) [ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ] Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so called "baroque" guitar...Best, Jean-Marie PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) Monica, I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows that it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments? Shaun On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. Please don't knock the guitar!!! Monica - Original Message - From: Shaun Ng To: Monica Hall Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century performance style. Campion (my translations): There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated [….] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accom
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
True we do not know exactly where de Visée was from, but he was probably born in the Paris area and was active at court as early as 1680. In 1692 du Pradel (aka de Blégny), in his list of masters for the guitar, mentions "de Vizé (a very common spelling of his name at the time), à Luxembourg", which means he lived near the Palais du Luxembourg and not the country of the same name... Best, Jean-Marie -- >I am going off topic here, but do we really know where Robert de Visée is >from? I recall finding an entry in a modern edition of Nicolas Blégny's Le >livre commode (1692) about a certain Visée (spelt differently). He is said to >be from one of the low countries, but I cannot remember which one. Of course, >I could be totally wrong. > >On 28 Feb 2014, at 4:00 am, howard posner wrote: > >> >> On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier >> wrote: >> >>> Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and >>> lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) >> >> He was a Spaniard, and he used Google Translate. >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >--
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I am going off topic here, but do we really know where Robert de Visée is from? I recall finding an entry in a modern edition of Nicolas Blégny's Le livre commode (1692) about a certain Visée (spelt differently). He is said to be from one of the low countries, but I cannot remember which one. Of course, I could be totally wrong. On 28 Feb 2014, at 4:00 am, howard posner wrote: > > On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and >> lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) > > He was a Spaniard, and he used Google Translate. > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Ooops, "so much" in the end ;-) !!! JM -- >Exactly Monica, but I tried to keep the same awkwardness in English as the >French original conveys and did not want to brush it up s mauch ;-) ! > >All the best but obviously YOU understand FRench ;-), > >Jean-Marie > > >-- > >>Well I don't know about French grammar but I would translate this passage as >> >>I beg those who know how to compose and who are not familiar with the >>guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes break the rules; >>the instrument requires it and above all it is necessary to satisfy the >>ear. >> >>Monica >> >>- Original Message - >>From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" >>To: "Shaun Ng" ; "Monica Hall" >>Cc: "'Lute List'" >>Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:41 PM >>Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >> >> >>> "Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne connoistreront >>> pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je >>> m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il >>> faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout." >>> Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682) >>> [ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, not >>> to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the >>> instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ] >>> >>> Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not >>> modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so called >>> "baroque" guitar...Best, >>> >>> Jean-Marie >>> >>> PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo >>> and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... >>> ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>>>Monica, >>>> >>>>I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows that >>>>it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. >>>>Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, >>>>guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. >>>> >>>>My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical >>>>writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after >>>>all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the >>>>professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had >>>>multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments? >>>> >>>>Shaun >>>> >>>> >>>>On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: >>>> >>>>> There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a >>>>> guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, >>>>> Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and >>>>> indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and >>>>> when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. >>>>> >>>>> Please don't knock the guitar!!! >>>>> >>>>> Monica >>>>> - Original Message - >>>>> From: Shaun Ng >>>>> To: Monica Hall >>>>> Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist >>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >>>>> >>>>>>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few >>>>>>> lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be >>>>> embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to >>>>> suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is >>>>> really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French >>>>> eighteenth century performance style. >>>>> >>>>> Campion (my translations): >>>>> >>>>> There is an art to touchin
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Exactly Monica, but I tried to keep the same awkwardness in English as the French original conveys and did not want to brush it up s mauch ;-) ! All the best but obviously YOU understand FRench ;-), Jean-Marie -- >Well I don't know about French grammar but I would translate this passage as > >I beg those who know how to compose and who are not familiar with the >guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes break the rules; >the instrument requires it and above all it is necessary to satisfy the >ear. > >Monica > >- Original Message - >From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" >To: "Shaun Ng" ; "Monica Hall" >Cc: "'Lute List'" >Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:41 PM >Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> "Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne connoistreront >> pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je >> m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il >> faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout." >> Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682) >> [ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, not >> to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the >> instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ] >> >> Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not >> modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so called >> "baroque" guitar...Best, >> >> Jean-Marie >> >> PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo >> and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... >> ;-) >> >> >> >>>Monica, >>> >>>I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows that >>>it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. >>>Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, >>>guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. >>> >>>My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical >>>writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after >>>all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the >>>professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had >>>multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments? >>> >>>Shaun >>> >>> >>>On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: >>> >>>> There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a >>>> guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, >>>> Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and >>>> indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and >>>> when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. >>>> >>>> Please don't knock the guitar!!! >>>> >>>> Monica >>>> - Original Message - >>>> From: Shaun Ng >>>> To: Monica Hall >>>> Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >>>> >>>>>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few >>>>>> lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. >>>> >>>> >>>> What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be >>>> embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to >>>> suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is >>>> really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French >>>> eighteenth century performance style. >>>> >>>> Campion (my translations): >>>> >>>> There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after >>>> having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the >>>> other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the >>>> chord, unless the strings are separated [….] This is why I always give a >>>> dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. >>>> >>>> The harpègement
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Well I don't know about French grammar but I would translate this passage as I beg those who know how to compose and who are not familiar with the guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes break the rules; the instrument requires it and above all it is necessary to satisfy the ear. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Shaun Ng" ; "Monica Hall" Cc: "'Lute List'" Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise "Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne connoistreront pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout." Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682) [ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ] Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so called "baroque" guitar...Best, Jean-Marie PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) Monica, I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows that it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments? Shaun On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. Please don't knock the guitar!!! Monica - Original Message - From: Shaun Ng To: Monica Hall Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century performance style. Campion (my translations): There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated [….] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the instrument]. Shaun Ng On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall wrote: I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what you actually said... "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them)." There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has quoted Gramont says The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. Clearly many of these people could play sophisticate
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Good point Howard ! :-) Another good reason to forget Google Translate ;-) -- > >On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and >> lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) > >He was a Spaniard, and he used Google Translate. >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and lute > of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) He was a Spaniard, and he used Google Translate. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
"Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne connoistreront pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout." Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682) [ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ] Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so called "baroque" guitar...Best, Jean-Marie PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... ;-) >Monica, > >I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows that it >was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. Furthermore, >his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, guitar and lute, >does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. > >My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical >writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after >all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the >professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had >multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments? > >Shaun > > >On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: > >> There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a >> guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, >> Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and indeed >> most professional players may have played both instruments as and when >> required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. >> >> Please don't knock the guitar!!! >> >> Monica >> ----- Original Message - >> From: Shaun Ng >> To: Monica Hall >> Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist >> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >> >>>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons >>>> on the guitar before starting with the lute. >> >> >> What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be >> embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to >> suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is >> really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French >> eighteenth century performance style. >> >> Campion (my translations): >> >> There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after >> having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other >> fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, >> unless the strings are separated [….] This is why I always give a dozen >> guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. >> >> The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the >> bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I >> said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the >> theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the >> touch [of the instrument]. >> >> Shaun Ng >> >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall wrote: >> >>> I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and >>> no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again >>> what you >>> actually said... >>> >>> "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source >>> for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there >>> inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their >>> grandmother sneered at them)." >>> >>> There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly >>> capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has >>> quoted Gramont says >>> >>> The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so >>> fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. >>> The Duke >>> of York could play
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Dear Shaun I am sure you were not knocking the guitar! My comment was intended for those who claimed that "Guitar players were actually known for their inability to play sophisticated music", Best Monica - Original Message - From: "Shaun Ng" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Monica, I am not knocking the guitar. Campion's 'lack of embarrassment' shows that it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had multiple techniques of 'touching' for different instruments? Shaun On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. Please don't knock the guitar!!! Monica - Original Message - From: Shaun Ng To: Monica Hall Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. What I have found interesting is how Campion-who doesn't seem to be embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master-seems to suggest that the way to play (or more precisely 'touch') the theorbo is really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century performance style. Campion (my translations): There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated [..] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the instrument]. Shaun Ng On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall wrote: I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what you actually said... "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them)." There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has quoted Gramont says The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a professional player.. The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in the 17th century as it is today. There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. That will have to do for tonight. Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Monica - are you still
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Monica, I am not knocking the guitar. Campions 'lack of embarrassment' shows that it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had multiple techniques of touching' for different instruments? Shaun On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall wrote: > There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a guitar > player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, Grenerin, De > Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and indeed most > professional players may have played both instruments as and when required in > a manner appropriated to the occasion. > > Please don't knock the guitar!!! > > Monica > - Original Message - > From: Shaun Ng > To: Monica Hall > Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > >>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons >>> on the guitar before starting with the lute. > > > What I have found interesting is how Campionwho doesnt seem to be > embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar masterseems to suggest > that the way to play (or more precisely touch') the theorbo is really > similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth > century performance style. > > Campion (my translations): > > There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after > having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other > fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, > unless the strings are separated [ .] This is why I always give a dozen > guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. > > The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the > bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I > said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the > theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the > touch [of the instrument]. > > Shaun Ng > > On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall wrote: > >> I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and >> no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what >> you >> actually said... >> >> "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source >> for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there >> inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their >> grandmother sneered at them)." >> >> There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly >> capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has >> quoted Gramont says >> >> The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so >> fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. >> The Duke >> of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as >> Francisco himself. >> >> Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a >> professional player.. >> >> The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration >> Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. >> >> Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a >> matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in >> the 17th century as it is today. >> >> There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source >> of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able >> to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may >> have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. >> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons >> on the guitar before starting with the lute. >> >> That will have to do for tonight. >> >> Monica >> >> >> - Original Message ----- From: "R. Mattes" >> To: "Monica Hall
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I'll second that sentiment. There is a small number of folks on this list who feel called upon to put down a more wealthy and successful cousin. On 2/27/14 8:49 AM, "Monica Hall" wrote: >There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a >guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, >Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and >indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as >and when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. > > > >Please don't knock the guitar!!! > > > >Monica > >- Original Message - > >From: [1]Shaun Ng > >To: [2]Monica Hall > >Cc: [3]R. Mattes ; [4]Lutelist > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM > >Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few > lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. > >What I have found interesting is how Campion--who doesn't seem to be >embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master--seems to >suggest that the way to play (or more precisely 'touch') the theorbo is >really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French >eighteenth century performance style. > >Campion (my translations): > > There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, > after having touched the essential note, must then do > a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and > alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated > [] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who > intend to accompany on the theorbo. > The harpegement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly > when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this > reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the > guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility > brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the > instrument]. > >Shaun Ng > >On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >wrote: > > I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of > them and > no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat > again what you > actually said... > "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild > source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for > there > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and > their > grandmother sneered at them)." > There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were > perfectly > capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which > Jean-Marie has > quoted Gramont says > The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this > instrument so > fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. > The Duke > of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as > Francisco himself. > Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well > as a professional player.. > The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the > Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at > face value. > Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often > just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in > the 17th century as it is today. > There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild > source > of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were > quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument > imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can > be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he > reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before > starting with the lute. > That will have to do for tonight. > Monica > - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" > <[6]r...@mh-freiburg.de> > To: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > On Wed, 26 F
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
It is very trendy now to strum the theorbo. I attended a concert by Les Arts Florrissant recently and Thomas Dunford was strumming away merrily a lot of the time. Notwithstanding my passion for the guitar I feel this may be a slightly non-historical practice. Each to his own last is the saying which springs to mind (last in this sense being a shoemaker's model according to my dictionary). Monica - Original Message - From: "Geoff Gaherty" To: "Lutelist" Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 1:28 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On 27/02/14 3:43 AM, William Samson wrote: Not that I know anything about it, but the name 'chittarone' seems to give the game away. The very idea has me salivating! Mighty rasgueados on the theorbo, anyone? I attended a concert by the Venice Baroque Orchestra in Santa Barbara recently and was surprised by the amount of rasgueado strumming by their theorbo player. He even had a pick guard installed on his instrument! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
When I play (arch)lute or theorbo with harpsichord I'd like to think we help eachother: the lute will make the sound of the harpsichord more mellow whilst the harpsichord will give volume to the sound of the lute. But one has to take care not to constantly double eachother. With organ, the lute gives attack while the organ gives sustain. That's an easier combination. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 27 February 2014 15:16, Geoff Gaherty <[3]ge...@gaherty.ca> wrote: On 27/02/14 9:07 AM, Eric Hansen wrote: I saw that orchestra in Connecticut last Sunday. The lutenist strummed quite bit, on a swan - neck Baroque lute. It looked to have a pick guard installed. He was a fine player. I was interested to see how both lute and harpsichord played most of the time, rather than one or the other. I'm sure I've read somewhere that they were rarely used together. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [4]http://www.gaherty.ca [5]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:ge...@gaherty.ca 4. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 5. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On 27/02/14 9:07 AM, Eric Hansen wrote: I saw that orchestra in Connecticut last Sunday. The lutenist strummed quite bit, on a swan - neck Baroque lute. It looked to have a pick guard installed. He was a fine player. I was interested to see how both lute and harpsichord played most of the time, rather than one or the other. I'm sure I've read somewhere that they were rarely used together. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I saw that orchestra in Connecticut last Sunday. The lutenist strummed quite bit, on a swan - neck Baroque lute. It looked to have a pick guard installed. He was a fine player. Eric On Feb 27, 2014 8:31 AM, "Geoff Gaherty" <[1]ge...@gaherty.ca> wrote: On 27/02/14 3:43 AM, William Samson wrote: Not that I know anything about it, but the name 'chittarone' seems to give the game away. The very idea has me salivating! Mighty rasgueados on the theorbo, anyone? I attended a concert by the Venice Baroque Orchestra in Santa Barbara recently and was surprised by the amount of rasgueado strumming by their theorbo player. He even had a pick guard installed on his instrument! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [2]http://www.gaherty.ca [3]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:ge...@gaherty.ca 2. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 3. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. Please don't knock the guitar!!! Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Shaun Ng To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]R. Mattes ; [4]Lutelist Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. What I have found interesting is how Campion--who doesn't seem to be embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master--seems to suggest that the way to play (or more precisely 'touch') the theorbo is really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century performance style. Campion (my translations): There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated [] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. The harpegement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the instrument]. Shaun Ng On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what you actually said... "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them)." There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has quoted Gramont says The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a professional player.. The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in the 17th century as it is today. There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. That will have to do for tonight. Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" <[6]r...@mh-freiburg.de> To: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without knowing which of my posts you have read so far. > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild > source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for > there > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and > their > grandmother sneered at them). This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too.
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On 27/02/14 3:43 AM, William Samson wrote: Not that I know anything about it, but the name 'chittarone' seems to give the game away. The very idea has me salivating! Mighty rasgueados on the theorbo, anyone? I attended a concert by the Venice Baroque Orchestra in Santa Barbara recently and was surprised by the amount of rasgueado strumming by their theorbo player. He even had a pick guard installed on his instrument! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
No stranger than the things that young people today stick through their ears, noses, belly buttons and other body parts! Geoff Very true! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On 26/02/14 2:44 PM, Monica Hall wrote: It seems a strange thing to do to stick bits of black taffeta or velvet or whatever on ones face - but I think they all had very bad skin (not to mention rotten teeth) due to their unhealthy life style. No stranger than the things that young people today stick through their ears, noses, belly buttons and other body parts! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Not that I know anything about it, but the name 'chittarone' seems to give the game away. The very idea has me salivating! Mighty rasgueados on the theorbo, anyone? Bill :) PS Sod the 'evidence' and let's have fun for a change! __ From: Shaun Ng To: Monica Hall Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist Sent: Thursday, 27 February 2014, 8:28 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. What I have found interesting is how Campionawho doesn't seem to be embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar masteraseems to suggest that the way to play (or more precisely 'touch') the theorbo is really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century performance style. Campion (my translations): There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated [a|.] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. The harpA"gement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the instrument]. Shaun Ng On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and > no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what you > actually said... > > "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their > grandmother sneered at them)." > > There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly > capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has > quoted Gramont says > > The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so > fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. > The Duke > of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as > Francisco himself. > > Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a professional player.. > > The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. > > Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in > the 17th century as it is today. > > There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source > of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. > > That will have to do for tonight. > > Monica > > > - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" <[2]r...@mh-freiburg.de> > To: "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -0000, Monica Hall wrote >> >> Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without >> knowing which of my posts you have read so far. >> >>> > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild >>> > source >>> > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for >>> > there >>> > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and >>> > their >>> > grandmother sneered at them). >>> >>> This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Indeed very telling. But we need to be careful that 'batterie' is not generally interpreted in practice always as a fully strummed chord - it might equally mean a broken (arpeggiated) chord depending on the context. MH > > From: Shaun Ng >To: Monica Hall >Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist >Sent: Thursday, 27 February 2014, 8:28 >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons >>> on the guitar before starting with the lute. > > >What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be >embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to suggest >that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is really similar >to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century >performance style. > >Campion (my translations): > >There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having >touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, >restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the >strings are separated [….] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to >those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. > >The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the >bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I >said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the >theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the >touch [of the instrument]. > >Shaun Ng > >On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall wrote: > >> I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and >> no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what >> you >> actually said... >> >> "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source >> for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there >> inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their >> grandmother sneered at them)." >> >> There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly >> capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has >> quoted Gramont says >> >> The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so >> fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. >> The Duke >> of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as >> Francisco himself. >> >> Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a >> professional player.. >> >> The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration >> Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. >> >> Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a >> matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in >> the 17th century as it is today. >> >> There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source >> of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able >> to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may >> have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. >> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons >> on the guitar before starting with the lute. >> >> That will have to do for tonight. >> >> Monica >> >> >> - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" >> To: "Monica Hall" >> Cc: "Lutelist" >> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >> >> >>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote >>> >>> Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without >>> knowing which of my posts you have read so far. >>> >>>> > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild >>>> > source >>>> > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for >>>> > there >>>> > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and >>>> > their >>>> > grandmother sneered at them). >>>> >>>> This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in >>>>
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons >> on the guitar before starting with the lute. What I have found interesting is how Campionwho doesnt seem to be embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar masterseems to suggest that the way to play (or more precisely touch') the theorbo is really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French eighteenth century performance style. Campion (my translations): There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated [ .] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the instrument]. Shaun Ng On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall wrote: > I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and > no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what > you > actually said... > > "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their > grandmother sneered at them)." > > There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly > capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has > quoted Gramont says > > The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so > fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. > The Duke > of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as > Francisco himself. > > Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a > professional player.. > > The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration > Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. > > Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a > matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in > the 17th century as it is today. > > There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source > of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able to > do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may have > had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. Campion > actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the > guitar before starting with the lute. > > That will have to do for tonight. > > Monica > > > - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" > To: "Monica Hall" > Cc: "Lutelist" > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote >> >> Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without >> knowing which of my posts you have read so far. >> >>> > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild >>> > source >>> > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for >>> > there >>> > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and >>> > their >>> > grandmother sneered at them). >>> >>> This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in >>> the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to >>> pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. >> >> Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted and >> you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as do >> many other 17th century sources). >> >>> But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - >>> by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many >>> others. >> >> As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. >> There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that >> instrument. >> >>> Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to >
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what you actually said... "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them)." There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has quoted Gramont says The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a professional player.. The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in the 17th century as it is today. There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. That will have to do for tonight. Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without knowing which of my posts you have read so far. > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild > source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for > there > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and > their > grandmother sneered at them). This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted and you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as do many other 17th century sources). But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many others. As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that instrument. Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise was necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar gets treated like a "mini-lute". There are for examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this should not be acceptable. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3 suspension in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two voices, but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third. What you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or rather, the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced that this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something that just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we had no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and perceived music. And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was inconvenient. For me the issue pretty much is: should I (as a lute player) take as a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ continuo instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I just follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!). When switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why should I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice leading? With all the stylistic differences between the different c
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without knowing which of my posts you have read so far. > > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source > > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there > > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their > > grandmother sneered at them). > > This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in > the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to > pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted and you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as do many other 17th century sources). > But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - > by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many > others. As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that instrument. > Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to > accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise was > necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar gets treated like a "mini-lute". > There are for > examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates > a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line > falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension > is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this > should not be acceptable. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3 suspension in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two voices, but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third. What you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or rather, the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced that this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something that just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we had no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and perceived music. > And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was > inconvenient. For me the issue pretty much is: should I (as a lute player) take as a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ continuo instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I just follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!). When switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why should I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice leading? With all the stylistic differences between the different continuo styles the common agreement seems to be that continuo should follow the "rules" of music (BC quasi beeing a "contapunto al mente") [2] There really seems to be a great divide between the so-called guitar world and the rest of the baroque crowd. To the later it seems pretty clear that BC was first and foremost a shorthand notation for colla-parte playing. It's rather unfortunate that modern time picked "basso continuo" and not Fundamentbass or "sopra la parte" or "partimento" (the last literally meaning "little score" or "short-hand score"). Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] unless someone else provides a lower bass voice. [2] im very reluctant to use the word "rules" here. This sounds like something imposed from the outside. Maybe "grammar" would be the more fitting term. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Whether the music they played is "sophisticated" enough for anyone's taste is irrelevant: as a resource, it reflects some 17th century musicians' ability to recognize that identical groups of notes resulted in functionally identical vertical sonorities independent of octave placement or voice leading. In other words, they knew a Cm7 chord was a Cmin7 chord whether it had a C, an E-flat, a G or a B-flat under it. Quite sophisticated thinking, actually. Yes indeed that is so and it is something which certainly should not be overlooked. As early as 1596 Amat explains that the 5-part guitar chords consist of a root, third and fifth and that it does not matter which order the notes are played they are still the same chords And there is no reason why when strumming an accompaniment the bass line should be reproduced at all or the chords played in any particular inversion. It is perfectly acceptable way of providing an accompaniment and only narrow-minded 21st century pedants would think otherwise. They are simply judging things according to an inappropriate set of criteria. Monica > Do yo uthink that the lower vocal part is also meant as a BC part? This is a vocal duo with written out theorbo accompaniment. The theorbo bass voice is an independent voice. Whether the bass is sung or not is irrelevant because the part in bass clef functions as the continuo line. The theorbo bass is definitely not "an independent voice" since 99% of the time Castaldi reproduces the line of the basso exactly, an octave lower. Castaldi only deviates from the mensural bass for reasons specific to the theorbo, like when he couldn't play the expected low F#. His solution demonstrates the types of options that a 17th musician felt were valid. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many others. Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise was necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. There are for examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this should not be acceptable. And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was inconvenient. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Yes - I realized that. I was reading and replying to the messages in sequence. I think these patches were sometimes in the shape of a butterfly - or possiby even a fly - which is why they were called "Mouche". It seems a strange thing to do to stick bits of black taffeta or velvet or whatever on ones face - but I think they all had very bad skin (not to mention rotten teeth) due to their unhealthy life style. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "'Lute List'" Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Quite right Monica. Exactly what I corrected in a later post... mouche = artificial beauty spots Best, Jean-Marie -- This translation is a bit nearer the mark but the phrase que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches... means that you will find on these ladies dressing tables rouge and "patches" - not flies. The patches were little black velvet spots which people stuck on their faces often to cover blemishes in their complexions. I have been a way for a couple of days so need time to catch up with the discussion. May indeed supply a more idiomatic translation of the passage in due course Monica. - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "'Lute List'" Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. "He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! " -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Quite right Monica. Exactly what I corrected in a later post... mouche = artificial beauty spots Best, Jean-Marie -- >This translation is a bit nearer the mark but the phrase > >que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches... > >means that you will find on these ladies dressing tables rouge and >"patches" - not flies. The patches were little black velvet spots which >people stuck on their faces often to cover blemishes in their complexions. > >I have been a way for a couple of days so need time to catch up with the >discussion. > >May indeed supply a more idiomatic translation of the passage in due >course > >Monica. > > > > >- Original Message - >From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" >To: "'Lute List'" >Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:44 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my >> translation, not very far from Google's but... >> >> There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was >> famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who >> could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious >> and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of >> all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing >> after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this >> instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and >> on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as >> rouge and flies. >> >> The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well >> as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which >> charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had >> started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! >> >> At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! >> >> Best, >> >> Jean-Marie >> Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) >> >> >> -- >> >>> >>>On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier >>>wrote: >>> >>>> Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read >>>> French) : >>> >>>For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google >>>Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. >>> >>>"He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius >>>for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its >>>composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the >>>harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was >>>more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions >>>had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the >>>world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar >>>to find the red and flies. >>> >>>The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco >>>itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed >>>everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the >>>Universal raclerie it was! " >>>-- >>> >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
This translation is a bit nearer the mark but the phrase que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches... means that you will find on these ladies dressing tables rouge and "patches" - not flies. The patches were little black velvet spots which people stuck on their faces often to cover blemishes in their complexions. I have been a way for a couple of days so need time to catch up with the discussion. May indeed supply a more idiomatic translation of the passage in due course Monica. - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "'Lute List'" Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. "He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! " -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Agreed Howard ! Google translations made my day a couple of times and I always advised my students to resort to it when they felt depressed and needed a bit of fun to brighten up ! Speaking of the great Bill, his monologue in Hamlet sifted through Google translator into French is a pure masterpiece ! He would be envious for sure ;-) Best, Jean-Marie -- > >On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. > >I’m shocked — SHOCKED -- to hear it. > >> At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! > >Sorry, but there’s simply no way to improve on “the toilet was beautiful,” and >Shakespeare himself would be envious of “taste the king for his compositions.” > We’re dealing with great literature here. > > > > > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Im shocked SHOCKED -- to hear it. > At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Sorry, but theres simply no way to improve on the toilet was beautiful, and Shakespeare himself would be envious of taste the king for his compositions. Were dealing with great literature here. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
a "mouche" was an artificial beauty spot actually ! Jean-Marie -- >Its getting a bit OT, but I think in the context 'mouche' on the ladies' >dressing tables refers to something other than 'flies'. I've found another >possible meaning: patch or ornament related to taffeta. > >Miles Dempster > > > >On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my >> translation, not very far from Google's but... >> >> There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was >> famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who >> could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and >> so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all >> instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after >> his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this >> instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on >> the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge >> and flies. >> >> The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well >> as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which >> charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had >> started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! >> >> At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! >> >> Best, >> >> Jean-Marie >> Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) >> >> >> -- >> >>> >>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier >>> wrote: >>> Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : >>> >>> For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google >>> Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. >>> >>> "He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius >>> for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its >>> composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the >>> harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was >>> more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions >>> had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world >>> good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find >>> the red and flies. >>> >>> The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco >>> itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed >>> everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the >>> Universal raclerie it was! " >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > >--
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Here is what you get from the Dictionary of the French Academy, 1694 : Mouche : Certain petit morceau de taffetas noir que les Dames se mettent sur le visage, ou pour cacher quelques eleveures, ou pour faire paroistre leur teint plus blanc. a "mouche" was a tiny spot of black taffeta that Ladies put (glue) on their face, to hide some small defects, or to make their complexion appear whiter... Jean-Marie -- >Its getting a bit OT, but I think in the context 'mouche' on the ladies' >dressing tables refers to something other than 'flies'. I've found another >possible meaning: patch or ornament related to taffeta. > >Miles Dempster > > > >On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my >> translation, not very far from Google's but... >> >> There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was >> famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who >> could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and >> so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all >> instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after >> his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this >> instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on >> the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge >> and flies. >> >> The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well >> as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which >> charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had >> started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! >> >> At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! >> >> Best, >> >> Jean-Marie >> Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) >> >> >> -- >> >>> >>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier >>> wrote: >>> Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : >>> >>> For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google >>> Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. >>> >>> "He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius >>> for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its >>> composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the >>> harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was >>> more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions >>> had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world >>> good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find >>> the red and flies. >>> >>> The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco >>> itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed >>> everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the >>> Universal raclerie it was! " >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > >--
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Its getting a bit OT, but I think in the context 'mouche' on the ladies' dressing tables refers to something other than 'flies'. I've found another possible meaning: patch or ornament related to taffeta. Miles Dempster On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my > translation, not very far from Google's but... > > There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous > for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do > something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender > that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. > The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. > The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so > fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' > dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. > > The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as > Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed > or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to > learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! > > At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! > > Best, > > Jean-Marie > Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) > > > -- > >> >> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier >> wrote: >> >>> Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : >> >> For those who canât, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google >> Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. >> >> "He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius >> for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its >> composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the >> harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was >> more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had >> made ââthe instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good >> or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the >> red and flies. >> >> The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco >> itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed >> everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the >> Universal raclerie it was! " >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > --
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- > >On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : > >For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google >Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. > >"He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for >music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition >was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most >ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult >than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the >instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the >toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. > >The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco >itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed >everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal >raclerie it was! " >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who canât, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. "He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ââthe instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! " -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 07:41:43 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote > Ralf, > > On Tue, 2/25/14, R. Mattes wrote: > > > There is no such thing as "harmony below bass". Please, get > > all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. > > No, everyone keep your shoes on, please! In fact, 17th century > players frequently utilized the option to play "harmony below the > bass" by recognizing chord roots and inverting them as was > practical. There are even examples of written out lute realizations > in which every single chord has been voiced in root position(!), But that is not "harmony below the bass" at all. That's just substituting the bass note. > which clearly shows that they understood the theoretical principles > at work, even if they lacked a terminology to discuss them in > today's lingo (i.e. "Berkeley Jazz shoes"). According to what we > know of 17th century theory, players "couldn't" do this, but, well, > um, they did. I noted one such instance from Castaldi in my last > post. Yes, but there is no mystery at all in that example - and no need to refer to "modern" (read: Rameauistic) terminology. At that spot Castaldi just susbstitutes a "Clausula Cantizans" with a *Clausula Fundamentalis". As you see, they even had a name for it (and allready Vincentino 1555 mentions the possibility to substitute one with another). Any musician with only moderate training would know by heart that a cantizans fa-mi-fa would go together with a fundamentalis la-re-sol or ut-re-sol and that would fit to a tenorizans mi-re-ut or fa-re-ut and fa-fa-ut and which of these patterns can be (re-)combined. > I discuss many more in far greater depth in an article I wrote > for the LSA which has very frustratingly been in publishing limbo > for several years. Too bad - I'd love to read it at some point. Can't you publish it somewhere else (or publish it online)? I hate when valuable information gets lost ... Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Wow ! Ralf, How can you be so blunt an unfair towards guitar music and guitar players. When the Chevalier de Grammont in his Mémoires, speaks of Corbetta he uses very laudatory terms, and of course, after praising Corbetta's talent, he sneers at the universal fashion to play the guitar just because it was the fashion, "la raclerie universelle", meaning that amateurs who pretended to imitate the masters were ridiculous... But the important point is that he acknowledges Corbetta's immense talent as a player and a musician. And you can't deny that Corbetta's music is quite often so sophisticated that it is very hard to play properly. It is a bit too simple to brush aside all the treatises for continuo realization on the guitar. They are perfectly justified and are the reflection of a common practice at the time. Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : "Il y avoit un certain Italien à la Cour, fameux pour la guitare. Il avoit du génie pour la musique, et c'est le seul qui de la guitare ait pu faire quelque chose; mais sa composition étoit si gracieuse et si tendre qu'il auroit donné de l'harmonie au plus ingrat de tous les instruments. La vérité est que rien n'étoit plus difficile que de jouer à sa manière. Le goût du roi pour ses compositions avoit tellement mis cet instrument à la mode que tout le monde en jouoit bien ou mal, et sur la toilette des belles on étoit aussi sûr de voir une guitare que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches. Le duc d'York en jouoit passablement, et le comte d'Arran comme Francisco lui-même. Ce Francisque venoit de faire une sarabande qui charmoit ou désoloit tout le monde : car toute la guitarerie de la Cour se mit à l'apprendre, et Dieu sait la raclerie universelle que c'étoit !" I do not agree at all that the music of Visée, Bartolotti, Campion, Grénerin, just to name a few, was not "sophisticated". Quite the contrary IMHO. Best, Jean-Marie Poirier -- >First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source >for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there >inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their >grandmother sneered at them). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Wow ! Ralf, How can you be so blunt an unfair towards guitar music and guitar players. When the Chevalier de Grammont in his Mémoires, speaks of Corbetta he uses very laudatory terms, and of course, after praising Corbetta's talent, he sneers at the universal fashion to play the guitar just because it was the fashion, "la raclerie universelle", meaning that amateurs who pretended to imitate the masters were ridiculous... But the important point is that he acknowledges Corbetta's immense talent as a player and a musician. And you can't deny that Corbetta's music is quite often so sophisticated that it is very hard to play properly. It is a bit too simple to brush aside all the treatises for continuo realization on the guitar. They are perfectly justified and are the reflection of a common practice at the time. Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : "Il y avoit un certain Italien à la Cour, fameux pour la guitare. Il avoit du génie pour la musique, et c'est le seul qui de la guitare ait pu faire quelque chose; mais sa composition étoit si gracieuse et si tendre qu'il auroit donné de l'harmonie au plus ingrat de tous les instruments. La vérité est que rien n'étoit plus difficile que de jouer à sa manière. Le goût du roi pour ses compositions avoit tellement mis cet instrument à la mode que tout le monde en jouoit bien ou mal, et sur la toilette des belles on étoit aussi sûr de voir une guitare que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches. Le duc d'York en jouoit passablement, et le comte d'Arran comme Francisco lui-même. Ce Francisque venoit de faire une sarabande qui charmoit ou désoloit tout le monde : car toute la guitarerie de la Cour se mit à l'apprendre, et Dieu sait la raclerie universelle que c'étoit !" I do not agree at all that the music of Visée, Bartolotti, Campion, Grénerin, just to name a few, was not "sophisticated". Quite the contrary IMHO. Best, Jean-Marie Poirier -- >On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 05:28:26 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote >First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source >for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there >inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their >grandmother sneered at them). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Further observations are in line below in small text caps since, at least for me, Wayne's robot seems to alter formatting - or whatever - and reduces the texts to numerous short broken up passages running over numerous pages. I've asked him about it.. Also see Wilke's note. MH PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense. At the time no responses came! Have you (or anyone else for that matter) any thoughts? MH __ From: R. Mattes To: Lutelist ; Martyn Hodgson ; Monica Hall Sent: Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:52:18 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote > > Thank's for this. > > I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non > re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part > and parcel of the instrument. THE ABOVE STANDS. I agree with the anonymous author of > the Facebook article you mention who wote: That would be Matthew Jones. > ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show > this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to > 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. Yes, that particular meassure would be odd. But that oddness _does_ exist in Bartolotti's solo music (as M. Jones points out in another post). And this is an oddness that could easily be avoided by playing the e on the fifth string, second fret. So this measure clearly is an argument against the example being written for an non-reentrant instrument. INDEED But the fist few are odd (no, they are actually gibberish). And since there are examples for the first kind of oddness (i.e. resolving to the wrong octave) I have yet to find one of the second kind (i.e. inverting 73-63 to 24-35) > [M. Jones continues ...] > I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings > as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out > and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. >There is no such thing as "harmony below bass". Please, get all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE REFERENCE - SORRY. If you play a realization like the given Bartolotti example on a reentrant instrument you simply create a new bass voice (and a pretty bad on, in this case). The continuo bass is the lowest voice AS WILKE POINTS OUT, BUT NOT ALWAYS STRICTLY FOLLOWED AT THE TIME BY THEORBO PLAYERS SUCH AS KAPSBERGER. - that's not a concept I invented, it's at the core of what Banchieri calls 'basso seguente' (and probably one of the main techniques that triggered the development of B.C. - at some point organists realized that a basso sequente together with some hints (read: numbers) would be enough to sketch down a composition, nad way easier to produce than the intabulations they had to prepare to be able to play colla parte). [now Martin:] > Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern > tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing > and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. IN THIS I AM REFERRING TO REALISATION ON THE THEORBO - NOT ON THE KEYBOARD. Is there? More than back then? The continuo methods I've read so far (quite some, if I might say) that deal with dissonances at all (i.e. those that go beyond the three sheet "Idiot's guide to B.C.") all take great care to keep the parts in order. Just as an example: look at Muffat's treaties (IMHO one of the best to start with for an aspiring lute player), when he describes chains of parallel 6th chords (trivial if you play three voices - nasty if you want four) he takes great care that the fourth voice in his four voice example is "correct". Actually, even the Bartolotti examples (sans the odd measures) is a fine example of partwriting. And just to mention it: "full" playing (i.e. more than four voices) is always a "correct" core plus some note
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Ralf, On Tue, 2/25/14, R. Mattes wrote: > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a > vaild source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually > known for there > inability to play sophisticated music... Whether the music they played is "sophisticated" enough for anyone's taste is irrelevant: as a resource, it reflects some 17th century musicians' ability to recognize that identical groups of notes resulted in functionally identical vertical sonorities independent of octave placement or voice leading. In other words, they knew a Cm7 chord was a Cmin7 chord whether it had a C, an E-flat, a G or a B-flat under it. Quite sophisticated thinking, actually. > Do yo uthink that the lower vocal part is also > meant as a BC part? This is a vocal duo with written out theorbo > accompaniment. The theorbo bass voice is an independent voice. Whether the bass is sung or not is irrelevant because the part in bass clef functions as the continuo line. The theorbo bass is definitely not "an independent voice" since 99% of the time Castaldi reproduces the line of the basso exactly, an octave lower. Castaldi only deviates from the mensural bass for reasons specific to the theorbo, like when he couldn't play the expected low F#. His solution demonstrates the types of options that a 17th musician felt were valid. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Ralf, On Tue, 2/25/14, R. Mattes wrote: > There is no such thing as "harmony below bass". Please, get > all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. No, everyone keep your shoes on, please! In fact, 17th century players frequently utilized the option to play "harmony below the bass" by recognizing chord roots and inverting them as was practical. There are even examples of written out lute realizations in which every single chord has been voiced in root position(!), which clearly shows that they understood the theoretical principles at work, even if they lacked a terminology to discuss them in today's lingo (i.e. "Berkeley Jazz shoes"). According to what we know of 17th century theory, players "couldn't" do this, but, well, um, they did. I noted one such instance from Castaldi in my last post. I discuss many more in far greater depth in an article I wrote for the LSA which has very frustratingly been in publishing limbo for several years. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 05:28:26 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote > > I agree that seicento pluckers often played "harmony below the > bass." How would you know. > This is another way of saying that they recognized and used > chord inversion Now what? This definition is _disagrees_ with the example given. > even though musicians weren't "supposed" to be aware > of root equivalency at the time. We know how the thought, wrote and reasond about it. Of course we can just ignore all texts written by musicians for musicians and play "Captain Let's-pretend". Not my way to aproach early music. > However, we know that guitarists > certainly did with alfabeto, in which identical finger shapes > resulted in harmonic units that would change position dependent upon > the tuning used. First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). > Lute and theorbo players did as well. For > example, in the songs with bass lines and written theorbo parts in > Castaldi's "Capricci a due stromenti...", he often inverts chords to > make the part idiomatic to the instrument. There's a passage in "Al > mormorio" in which the bass line steps down, A-G-F#. In the written > out thoerbo part, Castaldi harmonizes the A with a root position > minor chord on the 6th course, but then unexpectedly places a root > position D major chord UNDER the F#. Tellingly, he then omits the G > because its role is to provide smooth voice leading between the A > and F#.As Castaldi has an F natural 8th course, his whole reason > for introducing the change is to accommodate some type of harmony on > the F#. He could have simply played a 6/3 chord on the F# by placing > it in a upper octave, but this would have resulted in a thinner, > less resonant sonority. It is extremely interesting to note, > therefore, that he feels free to alter the chord position where > needed to make the part more satisfying according to the resources > of the instrument. Wait, wait. Do yo uthink that the lower vocal part is also meant as a BC part? This is a vocal duo with written out theorbo accompaniment. The theorbo bass voice is an independent voice. At exactly the place you mention it's playing cute motivic games with the vocal basso (voice: a g fis g, answered by g a b c). > This sort of practice must be what Caccini > had in mind when he enigmatically stated in the preface to "Le nuove > musiche" that, "I have made use of counterpoint only so that the > parts would agree [on paper?]". He also says that an aria or solo > madrigal performed in this manner, "will delight more than one which > has all the art of counterpoint." In other words, the bass line may > function in much the same way as the chords on a jazz lead sheet: as > a generator of notes that a player may potentially re-arrange > according to dramatic context or idiomatic needs of the instrument. Sorry, but I can't even start to see how you would drwa such conclusions from Caccini's words. That text just claims that the art of the composition doesn't rely on the artfulness of the counterpoint (as did music up to then). That's what makes his music "nuove". Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:52:18 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote > > Thank's for this. > > I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non > re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part > and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of > the Facebook article you mention who wote: That would be Matthew Jones. > ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show > this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to > 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. Yes, that particular meassure would be odd. But that oddness _does_ exist in Bartolotti's solo music (as M. Jones points out in another post). And this is an oddness that could easily be avoided by playing the e on the fifth string, second fret. So this measure clearly is an argument against the example being written for an non-reentrant instrument. But the fist few are odd (no, they are actually gibberish). And since there are examples for the first kind of oddness (i.e. resolving to the wrong octave) I have yet to find one of the second kind (i.e. inverting 73-63 to 24-35) > [M. Jones continues ...] > I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings > as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out > and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. > There is no such thing as "harmony below bass". Please, get all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. If you play a realization like the given Bartolotti example on a reentrant instrument you simply create a new bass voice (and a pretty bad on, in this case). The continuo bass is the lowest voice - that's not a concept I invented, it's at the core of what Banchieri calls 'basso seguente' (and probably one of the main techniques that triggered the development of B.C. - at some point organists realized that a basso sequente together with some hints (read: numbers) would be enough to sketch down a composition, nad way easier to produce than the intabulations they had to prepare to be able to play colla parte). [now Martin:] > Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern > tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing > and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. Is there? More than back then? The continuo methods I've read so far (quite some, if I might say) that deal with dissonances at all (i.e. those that go beyond the three sheet "Idiot's guide to B.C.") all take great care to keep the parts in order. Just as an example: look at Muffat's treaties (IMHO one of the best to start with for an aspiring lute player), when he describes chains of parallel 6th chords (trivial if you play three voices - nasty if you want four) he takes great care that the fourth voice in his four voice example is "correct". Actually, even the Bartolotti examples (sans the odd measures) is a fine example of partwriting. And just to mention it: "full" playing (i.e. more than four voices) is always a "correct" core plus some notes doubled. > A concern > not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated > realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping > around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper > line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di > Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument > for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to > accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le > Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played > with the bass with little or no independent contrapuntal lines. I am more than a little bit reluctant to compare accompainments for Villanella type music with Bartolotti's refined continuo realizations. I think we desperately need to try distinguish between different styles (as the old ones did). Villanella style is know for it's (purpously!) "rustic" counterpoint. The only dissonances in Corradi are the cadencial 4th and the passing 7th on the antepenultima. And those never violate counterpoint. BTW, I've probably said It before - I think it's very problematic to simply read such sources as Kapsberger and Corradi as BC realizations. There's a big chance that they where meant as _alternative_ ways to accompain the music. Remember: While every BC is an accompainment, not every accompainment is a BC. > 'Going up the neck' is necessary if one has a re-entrant tuning > (single or double) and a high bass note which you wish to play at the > notated octave together with some harmony (altho of course there's no > prohibition
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Indeed - and, truth be told, I sometimes do it myself (ie adjusting the bass line) when wanting a particularly strong chord not practicable with the bass as found - especially when playing theorbo continuo in opera, large cantatas and the like where there is usually at least one other instrument playing the bass line alone (eg a bass violin or similar). MH __ From: Christopher Wilke To: R. Mattes ; Monica Hall ; Lutelist ; Martyn Hodgson Sent: Tuesday, 25 February 2014, 13:28 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Martyn, I agree that seicento pluckers often played "harmony below the bass." This is another way of saying that they recognized and used chord inversion even though musicians weren't "supposed" to be aware of root equivalency at the time. However, we know that guitarists certainly did with alfabeto, in which identical finger shapes resulted in harmonic units that would change position dependent upon the tuning used. Lute and theorbo players did as well. For example, in the songs with bass lines and written theorbo parts in Castaldi's "Capricci a due stromenti...", he often inverts chords to make the part idiomatic to the instrument. There's a passage in "Al mormorio" in which the bass line steps down, A-G-F#. In the written out thoerbo part, Castaldi harmonizes the A with a root position minor chord on the 6th course, but then unexpectedly places a root position D major chord UNDER the F#. Tellingly, he then omits the G because its role is to provide smooth voice leading between the A and F#. As Castaldi has an F natural 8th course, his whole reason for introducing the change is to accommodate some type of harmony on the F#. He could have simply played a 6/3 chord on the F# by placing it in a upper octave, but this would have resulted in a thinner, less resonant sonority. It is extremely interesting to note, therefore, that he feels free to alter the chord position where needed to make the part more satisfying according to the resources of the instrument. This sort of practice must be what Caccini had in mind when he enigmatically stated in the preface to "Le nuove musiche" that, "I have made use of counterpoint only so that the parts would agree [on paper?]". He also says that an aria or solo madrigal performed in this manner, "will delight more than one which has all the art of counterpoint." In other words, the bass line may function in much the same way as the chords on a jazz lead sheet: as a generator of notes that a player may potentially re-arrange according to dramatic context or idiomatic needs of the instrument. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Tue, 2/25/14, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise To: "R. Mattes" <[2]r...@mh-freiburg.de>, "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Lutelist" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 4:52 AM Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Martyn, I agree that seicento pluckers often played "harmony below the bass." This is another way of saying that they recognized and used chord inversion even though musicians weren't "supposed" to be aware of root equivalency at the time. However, we know that guitarists certainly did with alfabeto, in which identical finger shapes resulted in harmonic units that would change position dependent upon the tuning used. Lute and theorbo players did as well. For example, in the songs with bass lines and written theorbo parts in Castaldi's "Capricci a due stromenti...", he often inverts chords to make the part idiomatic to the instrument. There's a passage in "Al mormorio" in which the bass line steps down, A-G-F#. In the written out thoerbo part, Castaldi harmonizes the A with a root position minor chord on the 6th course, but then unexpectedly places a root position D major chord UNDER the F#. Tellingly, he then omits the G because its role is to provide smooth voice leading between the A and F#. As Castaldi has an F natural 8th course, his whole reason for introducing the change is to accommodate some type of harmony on the F#. He could have simply played a 6/3 chord on the F# by placing it in a upper octave, but this would have resulted in a thinner, less resonant sonority. It is extremely interesting to note, therefore, that he feels free to alter the chord position where needed to make the part more satisfying according to the resources of the instrument. This sort of practice must be what Caccini had in mind when he enigmatically stated in the preface to "Le nuove musiche" that, "I have made use of counterpoint only so that the parts would agree [on paper?]". He also says that an aria or solo madrigal performed in this manner, "will delight more than one which has all the art of counterpoint." In other words, the bass line may function in much the same way as the chords on a jazz lead sheet: as a generator of notes that a player may potentially re-arrange according to dramatic context or idiomatic needs of the instrument. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com ---- On Tue, 2/25/14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise To: "R. Mattes" , "Monica Hall" , "Lutelist" Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 4:52 AM Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played with the bass with little or no independent contrapuntal lines. 'Going up the neck' is necessary if one has a re-entrant tuning (single or double) and a high bass note which you wish to play at the notated octave together with some harmony (altho of course there's no prohibition on taking notes/sequences of notes an octave down). For example, with a double re-entrant instrument in nominal A tuning: a d just above the bass clef must be taken on the fourth course (rather than the third) if one wishes to play some harmony above it (say a f# on the third or on the first course). With non re-entrant one could simply play the bass on the third course and the 3rd and, indeed, a 5th on the second and first respectively. Hence why 'going up the neck' suggests a re-entrant tuning. MH
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played with the bass with little or no independent contrapuntal lines. 'Going up the neck' is necessary if one has a re-entrant tuning (single or double) and a high bass note which you wish to play at the notated octave together with some harmony (altho of course there's no prohibition on taking notes/sequences of notes an octave down). For example, with a double re-entrant instrument in nominal A tuning: a d just above the bass clef must be taken on the fourth course (rather than the third) if one wishes to play some harmony above it (say a f# on the third or on the first course). With non re-entrant one could simply play the bass on the third course and the 3rd and, indeed, a 5th on the second and first respectively. Hence why 'going up the neck' suggests a re-entrant tuning. MH __ From: R. Mattes To: Martyn Hodgson ; Monica Hall ; Lutelist Sent: Monday, 24 February 2014, 17:23 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:29:00 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote > I don't have this work either - I think... @Monica: are you by any chance refering to [1]https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441553512620558.1073741827 .253474818095096&type=1 (Bartolotti continuo and solo similarities - from [2]https://www.facebook.com/Tiorba)? BTW, there's an image of page 52. or me this example works _much_ better in a non-reentrant tuning (N.B: Ms. one has an error: the second chor should read dfbflat). Why would Bartolotti start thist example with horribly wrong conterpoint? In reentrant tuning the 7-6 would transmogrify into a perfect fifth (f c) "resolving" to a forth (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. We know our counterpoint - Bartolotti didn't? This all does not happen with a non-reentrant tuning. The one problematic spot for a non-reentrant tuning is Ms.13 - here the 7th (e natural, second string) would resolve into a 6th (d, fifth string), a problem easily solveable by playing the resolution on the third string. That spot makes much more sense in an reentrant tuning (moving from an open string g in ms. 10 to same note fretted on the second string, third fret ms. 11). > And I'm not quite sure what you mean in the page 6-7 example. But > doesn't the use of higher positions suggest a re-entrant (single > or double) tuning rather than the reverse, since it still allows > for some harmony to be played above the bass line? No. Once you are an the highest string (string 3 for an reentrant tuning) the strings "above" will actually be below. That's exactly what would happen on page 52. Going up the neck is as common on a archlute as it is on a theorbo. Cheers, RalfD [1] Yeah, that's why the called him " ... without doubt the most skillful upon the theorbo". -- References 1. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441553512620558.1073741827.253474818095096&type=1 2. https://www.facebook.com/Tiorba To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thank you for going to so much trouble to answer my query. I have been busy all afternoon and haven't had time to read it carefully but I understand that you think that it works better without re-entrant courses. I will read it all again later. The reason why I asked was because in a study of Bartolotti which is mainly concerned with the guitar I mentioned the continuo exercises briefly and relying on Lynda Sayce commented that they were intended for a theorboed lute without re-entrant courses. Someone contacted me and said he disagreed with me! I sure that Lynda is right and you obviously seem to think the same as she does. I always like to consult the collective wisdom of this list when in doubt about these rather obscure matters. Many thanks Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" To: "R. Mattes" ; "Martyn Hodgson" ; "Monica Hall" ; "Lutelist" Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:23:03 +0100, R. Mattes wrote I hate to follow up my own posts. (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. Another consideration speaking against this wrong counterpoint: in this type of 7-6 chain the top/solo voice often sings/plays the dissonance. While doubling the top voice seems to be perfectly fine for most 17th century BC treaties, the inverted version would put the dissonance into the bass and we would end up with parallel octaves between soloist and bass voice - which is definitely _not_ fine at all. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:23:03 +0100, R. Mattes wrote > I hate to follow up my own posts. > (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we > all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into > a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice > running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice > and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. Another consideration speaking against this wrong counterpoint: in this type of 7-6 chain the top/solo voice often sings/plays the dissonance. While doubling the top voice seems to be perfectly fine for most 17th century BC treaties, the inverted version would put the dissonance into the bass and we would end up with parallel octaves between soloist and bass voice - which is definitely _not_ fine at all. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:29:00 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote > I don't have this work either - I think... @Monica: are you by any chance refering to https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441553512620558.1073741827.253474818095096&type=1 (Bartolotti continuo and solo similarities - from https://www.facebook.com/Tiorba)? BTW, there's an image of page 52. or me this example works _much_ better in a non-reentrant tuning (N.B: Ms. one has an error: the second chor should read dfbflat). Why would Bartolotti start thist example with horribly wrong conterpoint? In reentrant tuning the 7-6 would transmogrify into a perfect fifth (f c) "resolving" to a forth (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. We know our counterpoint - Bartolotti didn't? This all does not happen with a non-reentrant tuning. The one problematic spot for a non-reentrant tuning is Ms.13 - here the 7th (e natural, second string) would resolve into a 6th (d, fifth string), a problem easily solveable by playing the resolution on the third string. That spot makes much more sense in an reentrant tuning (moving from an open string g in ms. 10 to same note fretted on the second string, third fret ms. 11). > And I'm not quite sure what you mean in the page 6-7 example. But > doesn't the use of higher positions suggest a re-entrant (single > or double) tuning rather than the reverse, since it still allows > for some harmony to be played above the bass line? No. Once you are an the highest string (string 3 for an reentrant tuning) the strings "above" will actually be below. That's exactly what would happen on page 52. Going up the neck is as common on a archlute as it is on a theorbo. Cheers, RalfD [1] Yeah, that's why the called him " ... without doubt the most skillful upon the theorbo". To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I don't have this work either - I think... And I'm not quite sure what you mean in the page 6-7 example. But doesn't the use of higher positions suggest a re-entrant (single or double) tuning rather than the reverse, since it still allows for some harmony to be played above the bass line? Or maybe I've misunderstood the example. I don't understand the page 52 example - sorry. Martyn __ From: Monica Hall To: Lutelist Sent: Sunday, 23 February 2014, 16:00 Subject: [LUTE] Bartolotti's continuo treatise Does anyone have a copy of Bartolotti's continuo treatise - Table pour apprendre a toucher le theorbe sur la basse continuo (1669). I haven't been able to trace one online. Someone queried with me this recent suggestion that the exercises are not intended for a theorbo with a double re-entrant tuning. He gave me two specific examples ... Page 6-7 shows him playing the the dessus going up the neck and shifting to the 5th fret position, which would be very unnecessary having a no-reentrant tuning. Page 52 shows Bartolotti changing the voice leading down an octave, and than re-striking the dissonance and resolution in the new lower octave, which only makes sense on a double-reentrant instrument. I suspect Bartolotti is just inconsistent but I wonder if anyone else has played through all the exercises and could comment. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 16:00:22 -, Monica Hall wrote > Does anyone have a copy of Bartolotti's continuo treatise - Table > pour apprendre a toucher le theorbe sur la basse continuo (1669). I > haven't been able to trace one online. I don't think that treaties is online - not everything is ;-) But it's published in the wounderfull "Méthodes & Traités - Basse Continue" series, volume 1 by edition Fuseau which any self-respecting library should hold. > Someone queried with me this recent suggestion that the exercises > are not intended for a theorbo with a double re-entrant tuning. He > gave me two specific examples ... > > Page 6-7 shows him playing the the dessus going up the neck and > shifting to the 5th fret position, which would be very unnecessary > having a no-reentrant tuning. Why? If you play continuo you need at least two notes above the base, so you need to stay on the third string. This is the same playing the archlute. Actually, on a reentrant theorbo I'd stay on the forth string even for basetti basses to keep the possibility to play a third above the bass (or, in rare cases, to play he bass on the first string and the third on the third string). > Page 52 shows Bartolotti changing the > voice leading down an octave, and than re-striking the dissonance > and resolution in the new lower octave, which only makes sense on a > double-reentrant instrument. I need to check this with my copy. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Does anyone have a copy of Bartolotti's continuo treatise - Table pour apprendre a toucher le theorbe sur la basse continuo (1669). I haven't been able to trace one online. Someone queried with me this recent suggestion that the exercises are not intended for a theorbo with a double re-entrant tuning. He gave me two specific examples ... Page 6-7 shows him playing the the dessus going up the neck and shifting to the 5th fret position, which would be very unnecessary having a no-reentrant tuning. Page 52 shows Bartolotti changing the voice leading down an octave, and than re-striking the dissonance and resolution in the new lower octave, which only makes sense on a double-reentrant instrument. I suspect Bartolotti is just inconsistent but I wonder if anyone else has played through all the exercises and could comment. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Continuo duets for two continuo instruments?
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:53:54 +0300, wikla wrote > Dear (continuo-)lutenists, > > there are (at least) two examples of duets for two continuo > instruments - only the numbered bass line written - but meant to be > played as otherwise all improvised duet. The one I remembered and > also found in the Net, is by > G. Strozzi, see http://www.continuo.ca/files/Strozzi%20-%20Sonata%20di%20basso%20solo.pdf > > There is at least one other similiar case - got also it nearly 20 > years ago from S. Stubbs (if memory serves...). And it also is in my > bookshelf, I know that, but I cannot find it... Anyone has any idea? Hmm, I don't know about "Continuo Duet" - but there are the of course the partimento duets by Pasquini, maybe you think of these? > Next month in a music course I might have possibility to play with a > professional baroque harpist, and this kind of improvisation stuff > could be most enjoyable! And I've done these two in a course in > Bremen in the beginning on 90's... I'll use the Pasquini ones in a course next weekend :-) HTH RalfD -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Continuo duets for two continuo instruments?
Dear (continuo-)lutenists, there are (at least) two examples of duets for two continuo instruments - only the numbered bass line written - but meant to be played as otherwise all improvised duet. The one I remembered and also found in the Net, is by G. Strozzi, see http://www.continuo.ca/files/Strozzi%20-%20Sonata%20di%20basso%20solo.pdf There is at least one other similiar case - got also it nearly 20 years ago from S. Stubbs (if memory serves...). And it also is in my bookshelf, I know that, but I cannot find it... Anyone has any idea? Next month in a music course I might have possibility to play with a professional baroque harpist, and this kind of improvisation stuff could be most enjoyable! And I've done these two in a course in Bremen in the beginning on 90's... Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well, not only in keyboard continuo there shouldn't be no limits; also
plucked continuo is free - the only "limit" is that when it is good
(subjective!) it serves the the soloist/ensemble/orchestra/... And also
"serving" is subjective. Of course usually mastering the style and
conventions of the period help achieving the goal... But being only
"pedant" doesn't guarantee art...
All the best,
Arto
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:27:03 -0400, "Roman Turovsky"
wrote:
> There seems to be no "generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo
> practice" included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as
> evidenced by its graduates.
> RT
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> To: "Christopher Wilke" ; "Roman Turovsky"
>
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
>
>
>
> Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
part)
> of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did
put
> in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo
> world...
>
> MH
>
> --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
>
> From: Roman Turovsky
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "Christopher Wilke"
>
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
>
>
> If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
> there are no generally acceptable limits for
> keyboard continuo practice.
> RT
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> To: "Christopher Wilke"
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
>
>
>>
>>
>> Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
>> continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
>> say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
>> suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
>> keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
>> practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
>> that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
>> any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
>> parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
>> mind.
>>
>> Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
>> some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
>> heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
>> grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
>> the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
>> instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
>> song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
>> the amplification.
>>
>> This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
>> defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
>> popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
>> thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
>> sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
>> intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
>> it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
>>
>> MH
>> --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
>>
>> From: Christopher Wilke
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>> To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
>>
>> Cc: "Lutelist"
>> Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
>>
>> --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think really these people really make any attempt
>> > to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
>> > any relevant knowledge at all.
>> >
>> > Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>> >
>> > Cynically
>> >
>> > Monica
>> >
>> I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
>> things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very
>> helpful critical term. Deciding who is "histori
