[LUTE] Ma Belle si ton ame of Gilles Durant de la Bergerie

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ray,

Thank you for the explanation. I remember with pleasure that phrase from
the Wizard of Oz, now you come to mention it, having played bass guitar
for the show a couple of years ago.

I think it is more than likely that your xerox is from Verchaly's
edition. Page 5 would be the second page you have, which you think might
be an unrelated piece. The six verses at the bottom of the page are
verses 2-7.

The second c# I was referring to, the one which would make the music
sound like the Blues, comes six events after the difficult chord you
mention:

 |\ |\|\ |\ |\|\  |\
 |  |\|\ |\ |\|\  |\
 |  | |. |\ | |\  |
___f__f__g__f__db___
_dgf__|_b___
_dgg__|_d___c_d_
_a__a_d___|___d_
___d__|_
__|_b___
 a

The rogue c# is the penultimate note.

Playing the difficult chord is not so hard, as long as you use a
suitable fingering. If you play the first chord above with 3 and 4, you
can slide both fingers along the strings from the d fret to the g fret.
Having established those two fingers at the g fret, you then place your
1st finger at f on the 1st course, and reach back with your 1st finger
for a barré. The general principle of fingering is to put down first
whichever fingers are nearest the bridge, which means the barré should
ideally come last. (That rule is broken for the chord immediately in
front of the bar-line, because the barré is already in place.)

There will be another slide linking the two chords separated by the bar
line. This time the 4th finger will slide from fret g back to fret d on
the 2nd course. It is always a good idea to keep at least one left-hand
finger in contact with a string. If you take all your fingers away from
the strings, you lose your orientation, and are more likely to play a
wrong note.

Here is the same passage with the c# corrected, and with my preferred
fingering:

 |\ |\|\ |\ |\  |\   |\
 |  |\|\ |\ |\  |\   |\
 |  | |. |\ |   |\   |
__2f__f_4g_2f__d_b_
_4d_4_g___3f__|__b_
_3d_3_g___4g__|_4db_4d_
__a__ad___|3d__
___d__|
__|__b_
  a

Letters without fingering are either open strings or notes to be stopped
by the 1st finger as a barré. I have put the 3rd and 4th fingers a long
way in front of the two gs, to show that those fingers must be in place
before you consider playing f.

To make the shift even easier, you could place your 2nd finger at c1 for
the 1st chord, even though it is not needed:

 |\
 |
 |
_2c_
_4d_
_3d_
___
___
___
  a

Then you would slide all three fingers along the strings ready for the
next chord, before reaching back with your 1st finger for the barré.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



-Original Message-
From: William Brohinsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 October 2008 14:09
To: Stewart McCoy
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Ma Belle si ton ame of Gilles Durant de la Bergerie

Colliginous: used by the Wizard of Oz in first addressing the
trembling Tin Woodsman in the 1939 movie: "Clattering collection of
colliginous junk". The word (hard to find in dictionaries) is mildly
redundant, meaning "loose collection, barely held together."

Trenchancy: noun, from adv "Trenchant", incisive or keen.

Together, 'Colliginous Trenchancy" = Collective Wisdom.

Forgive me, I hang around with wordsmiths!

I can't tell if this transcription is Verchaly's. I was handed a fax
or xerox of it with Gille's name in square brackets to the upper left,
the top of the title cut off and a second page with unreadable
handwritten tab for some other piece with six more verses. There is a
footnote 1, which is applied in two places, which matches your
description. Dure has the editorial c#. But I can't figure out exactly
where page 5 measure 3 would be in this version. Hopefully it will
become clearer as my wife and I read through it a time or two before I
reset it in django. I've only been through it once with the student
who will sing it.

French airs de cours have not been something I've studied before.

Thank you for the corrections! This is very heartening, because some
of these things baffled me last night, when I first saw it. One other
question: I have great difficulty with

f
-
g
-
g
-
d
-
-
-
primarily from the stretch. Is there a special position of the wrist
that facilitates this that I haven't learned, having never had a lute
teacher? Any advice would be appreciated.

Ray




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[LUTE] Lute Sighting

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ron,

This programme has already been discussed on the Vihuela List. Monica
Hall, Rob MacKillop, and Waling Tiersma were not impressed with it
because of all the historical inaccuracies. I quite enjoyed it, in
particular all the old film clips.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: Ron Fletcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 October 2008 16:20
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Lute Sighting

   There was a documentary on UK TV this week about the evolvement of
the
   guitar.


   It contained a short clip of a visit to Mike Tyzak(sp.?) somewhere in
   London, for a demonstration of the oud and it's cousin, the lute.  It
   moved on to baroque guitars, Spanish guitars and finally, Western
   guitars.


   UK residents can catch-up on-line by going to


   [1]http://www.BBCi-Player.co.uk


   Then BBC2> Sunday 6^th Oct.  Scroll down to 10pm. "Imagine".


   Next week moves on to electric-guitars, so it won't get a mention
   there.


   Best Wishes


   Ron (UK)

   --

References

   1. http://www.bbci-player.co.uk/




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[LUTE] From the court of Henry the VIII

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Eugene,

Many thanks for the information. I hadn't realised Sirinu had produced
these particular CDs. Their performances are always very jolly.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


-Original Message-
From: Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 13 October 2008 14:33
To: Omer katzir; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: from the court of Henry the VIII

At 08:54 AM 10/13/2008, Omer katzir wrote:
>nothing more to say...
>just pieces from this lovely court, i have two songs written by the
>king (all i could find by myself right now), greensleeves not included.
>
>again, thank you all for your help :-)


I must have totally missed the thread that prompted this note, and it
may 
now be totally redundant or superfluous, but:



Best,
Eugene 
://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[LUTE] From the court of Henry the VIII

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Omer,

Henry VIII didn't write Greensleeves. That's just a myth which has
arisen in more recent times. Nowhere is the song attributed to Henry in
the 16th century. The song is described by Clement Robinson in the 1580s
as the new sonnet Greensleeves to be sung to the new tune Greensleeves.
If both words and music were new 40 years after Henry popped his clogs,
he won't have had owt to do with it.

You will find many pieces attributed to Henry VIII in British Library,
Additional MS 31922, the so-called Henry VIII manuscript. There is a
modern edition edited by John Stevens, _Music at the Court of Henry
VIII_, Musica Britannica XVIII (London: Stainer and Bell Ltd, 1973).

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

PS It is unwise to make jokes with customs officials. They won't see the
funny side, and you are liable to be arrested.

-Original Message-
From: Omer katzir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 13 October 2008 13:54
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] from the court of Henry the VIII

nothing more to say...
just pieces from this lovely court, i have two songs written by the  
king (all i could find by myself right now), greensleeves not included.



again, thank you all for your help :-)

b.h.w.
my tuner got stuck in the customs office, i think i'll tell them it's  
a little atomic bomb so i wont have to pay the tax...




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[LUTE] Harpsichord substitute

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

I have listened to

http://tinyurl.com/5n6ecp

Congratulations to all the players on a splendid performance. As far as
balance is concerned, I would have liked to have heard the archlute a
bit more. The organ is certainly less obtrusive than a clattering
harpsichord.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: David Tayler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 18 October 2008 01:36
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] harpsichord substitute

   I've been experimenting with substituting the harpsichord in high
   baroque pieces with organ and archlute--the archlute has less of a
full
   sound than the theorbo but the treble makes a nice counterpoint for
   Bach
   The Bach Sonata here is traditionally played with harpsichord
continuo,
   or harpsichord with viol or cello (BWV 1021):
   vimeo:
   [1]http://www.vimeo.com/1923817
   the tube:
   [2]http://tinyurl.com/5n6ecp
   The figures are used as a guide to create a simple countersubject
   shared between the lute and the organ.
   I think that for some reson, it is easier to hear all of the nuances
in
   the sound of the violin with this combination, as opposed to the
   harpsichord.
   Perhaps the organ provides a kind of support similar to what it does
   for a singer, or perhaps the "after clack" of the harpsichord adds a
   layer of noise to the sound.
   I'm not saying I don't like the harpsichord; it is just interesting
   that the organ/lute seem to cover up the violin less.
   dt --

References

   1. http://www.vimeo.com/1923817
   2. http://tinyurl.com/5n6ecp




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[LUTE] Correction in Dowland's Sleep, wayward thoughts

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Davids (Taylor and Van Ooijen),

I spotted the one in Sleep Wayward Thoughts some months ago while
preparing for a concert. In the past I had always accepted the lute
tablature as gospel, and happily accompanied singers with just the lute.
When a bass viol was added in rehearsals for this particular concert,
the discrepancy immediately became apparent, and I adjusted my part.
Yes, one can feel very uncomfortable changing something one has played
for decades, but it has to be done.

Other discrepancies to look out for are between different editions. For
example, just after the time change in His Golden Locks, there is a
slight, but significant difference between the 1597 and 1613 editions.
When rehearsing once with a singer, we both kept saying that the other
was wrong, until I suggested comparing the music we each had.

A slight adjustment to the lute part is necessary towards the end of
Campion's well-known It fell on a summer's day. It's easy to miss, but
the lute part needs adjusting to avoid a clash of C and B.

I believe strongly that we need to look at lute music as music, and be
prepared to make changes where necessary, bearing in mind things like
consecutive fifths and octaves, voice-leading, imitation, harmony, and
so on. Editing involves more than just copying music out neatly without
any critical appraisal.

Dowland's Lachrimae is interesting. There is an augmented second in the
version for five viols/violins and lute, but it has to stand.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: David Tayler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 22 October 2008 22:22
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: correction in Dowland's Sleep, wayward thoughts

David's correction fixes another mistake, which is that as written, 
the two lower parts create a direct ocatve approached by double skip.


I would add the opening of the Lachrimae solo to the puzzle list, as 
the parallel fifths in the opening bar--which are on every 
recording--are not present in Dowland's version in Lachrimae or seven
tears.



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[LUTE] Lute Sighting

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bernd,

The lutenist is Doug Wootton; the fiddler is Roddy Skeaping. They are
two members of a group called The City Waites. They play and sing well,
and are extremely funny. You can find out more on their website:

http://www.citywaites.co.uk/

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 10 November 2008 12:18
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Lute Sighting

In Monty Python, ep. 36 , Sir Philip Sydney sketch, (1972)

see a screen shot

at

www.symbol4.de/mp36.jpg


B.




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Lewis Jones

[Stewart McCoy]

Does anyone have an e-mail address for Lewis Jones? If so, please
let me know off list.

Stewart McCoy.

Being gracious as a performer.

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Charles,

>From time to time over the years I have been asked to accompany
music students at Nottingham University for their singing exams.
They are required to give the examiners a copy of the music they
perform. After one recital one of the examiners asked to see the
music I had been playing from. I showed him a page of lute tablature
in facsimile. He looked at it, said, "Oh," and walked away.

Perhaps you should have given your festival adjudicator copies of
the guitar music in tablature, preferably German tablature.

-o-O-o-

I have a couple of comments on the question of what to say to people
after a performance:

1) To other performers: Nothing. No post mortems, no criticisms,
nothing. Pack your stuff away, get to the pub for a beer, and talk
about things other than music. If there was anything during a
performance which really warrants discussion, you can save it for
next time you meet.

2) To members of the audience: If someone praises you, say, "Thank
you. I'm pleased you enjoyed the performance." Do not mention
mistakes, or other things which might have been of concern to the
player. They are of no concern to the audience. Talking to a member
of the audience is rather like an extension to the programme - a
sort of encore - so you have to be positive. It's OK to say, "It's
lovely playing the lute in this 16th-century building with wood
panelling on the walls, because the acoustic is so nice and
resonant." It's not OK to say, "It might have sounded better, if
there weren't all those lousy carpets and curtains soaking up the
sound."

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Charles Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Candace Magner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lautenliste" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: Being gracious as a performer.


> I think we should provide the audience with a copy of the music! I
went into
> one festival, playing classical guitar, and the adjudicator said
of my
> performance " that was a wonderful piece of music you played,
unfortunately
> it bore no resemblance to the copy you handed in to me earlier!"
> best wishes
> Charles Browne

My Sweetest Lesbia

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Peter,

I think I disagree with my suggestion too. Your message to Jon has
prompted me to have another look at Campion's "My sweetest Lesbia".
I have re-read what you wrote on 8th June (copied below), and I
accept your solution.

One thing is clear: if there are mensuration signs like C slash and
"3", the value of the crotchet and minim does not stay the same; it
is the pulse or beat which stays the same. This means that the pulse
(represented at the start of the song by a dotted minim) stays
constant, but after the C slash that pulse is notated in minims (not
semibreves, as I had suggested on 8th June).

You are right to consider the meaning of the words: "ever-during
night" suggests a longer time than normal, so it would be
appropriate for
the music to appear to slow down at this point. If you followed my
original suggestion of dotted minim = semibreve, the music would
seem to speed up, producing a frantic end to the verse, instead of
the suitably serene end produced by dotted minim = minim.

I think Jon is wrong to suggest (as he does on 8th June) that there
is no answer to your question. You have answered it correctly
yourself.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Peter Nightingale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: My Sweetest Lesbia


> Jon,
>
> I never responded to your message. I've listened to the several
versions
> of the song and looked at the the lyrics and the voice part. It
seems
> "obvious" that there are no 3-2 or 3-1 changes going on here, but
1-2
> changes -- in contrast to Fire, Fire.  Let's say the song starts
in 3/4,
> then occasionally it goes to 3/2 and even 4/2, but at all times
the time
> it takes to play two crotchets equals that for a minim.  I would
go
> further than you and say that anything more complicated than
hemiolas (if
> that is what technically they are) seems far fetched.  It may be a
matter
> of taste, but unless I misunderstood, I think that I disagree with
> Stewarts' suggestion.
>
> Regards,
> Peter.
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Jon Murphy wrote:
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > I don't think there is an answer to your question. I have seen
it in the
> > theoreticals both ways - maintain the beat of the note, or the
time of the
> > measure. In the absence of a CD by Campion, which might be hard
to find, I'd
> > say that your feeling for the sound should be as good as anyone
else's.
> > Tempo is a bitch when looking at old tabs, and even modern
score. Is 6/8
> > really 2/2 played with triplets?
> >
> > Best, Jon
> >
> >
> >

Message on 8th June:

Dear Stewart,

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. As a matter of
fact,
this is precisely how I count Campions' Fire, Fire (Third Book of
Ayres,
XX).  However, there is a difference: Fire, Fire goes from C to 3
and,
whereas My sweetest Lesbia goes from 3 to C-slash.  The implication
is
that there is no difference between C and C-slash. Or do you have a
different solution of Fire?

One of the possibilities I mentioned, which would have made C and
C-slash
different, was to play the C-slash section twice as fast as you
suggest.
However, in terms of the music and the lyrics this makes no sense at
all:
according to my taste, "night" might be longer than "sleep", "paine"
and
"loue", or the same, but not shorter.

Thanks and regards,
Peter.

PS If anyone is interested, I have tab versions of both songs.

My Sweetest Lesbia & You Black Bright Stars

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Jon,

Many thanks for your message. You are right to say that we cannot
know everything about how these songs were performed 400 years ago,
but there are nevertheless some things we can be sure of.

One of these is the use of mensuration signs like "3" and "C" to
show a change of meter. Musical theorists from the 16th and 17th
centuries explain it all very clearly. Occasionally sources can be a
bit slap-happy, e.g. "3" on its own can mean "3 to the time of 1" or
"3 to the time of 2", but it's usually pretty obvious what's going
on.

The main thing to understand (which so many people get wrong today)
is that the pulse - the heart-beat of the music - stays constant,
not the value of the crotchets and minims. At the start of "My
sweetest Lesbia" there is a "3", which means that the pulse or beat
occurs every dotted minim: "one-two-three, one-two-three, etc."
After the "C slash" the pulse keeps going at the same speed, but it
is now a minim for each pulse, not a dotted minim. Your foot keeps
tapping out the same stomp, but it taps for every minim instead of
for every dotted minim. You end up counting "one-two, one-two", with
each "one-two" lasting the same amount of time as the old
"one-two-three". Although the pulse remains constant, by dividing it
into two instead of into three gives the impression that the music
slows down.

Composers used changes of mensuration for various reasons. I think
Peter was right to argue that the apparently slower tempo after "C
slash" in "My sweetest Lesbia" underlines the "ever-enduring" aspect
of "ever-enduring night".

Triple time was often used for playful things like enamouring. For
example, "My sweetest Lesbia" begins with the jolly words, "My
sweetest Lesbia let us live and love," and the music is in triple
time.

John Farmer's well-known madrigal is another example. It begins in
duple time with, "Fair Phyllis I saw saw sitting all alone", but
changes to triple time with the words, "And then they fell
a-kissing".

Instead of using the mensuration sign "3" for triple time, a
scribe/printer may instead have opted to use black notation. Black
notes last for two-thirds of their white equivalent. Thus a black
semibreve lasts for two-thirds of a white semibreve, and a black
minim (looking like a crotchet) lasts for two-thirds the length of a
white minim.

One special use of black notation may be seen in facsimiles but not
in modern editions. This is where the black triple-time notes
reflect the dark meaning of the words. A good example is "You blacke
bright starres" by Thomas Morley, the last song in his _Canzonets or
Litle Short Aers To Five And Sixe Voices_ (London, 1597). The meter
changes from triple to duple and back, depending on the meaning of
the words. See how the words "black" and "blacker" coincide with
black notation, and the words "daylight" and "lighter" coincide with
white notation:

["3" & black notes for triple time]
You blacke bright starres, that

["C" & white notes for duple time]
shine while dailight lasteth
Ah why haste you away when night time hasteth?
In

["3" & black notes for triple time]
darker nights the

["C" & white notes for duple time]
starres stil seeme the lighter.
On me shine then anights with your beames brighter
Beames

["3" & black notes for triple time]
that are

["C" & white notes for duple time]
cause my

["3" & black notes for triple time]
hart hath so a-

["C" & white notes for duple time]
spired,
Fire mounts aloft and they my hart have fired.

We don't use black notation today, so Morley's little conceit would
be lost in a modern edition.

By the way, Morley's book of canzonets contains lute tablature as a
substitute for (or as an addition to) the lowest parts. Robert
Spencer discovered that Morley's book was entered in the Stationer's
Register on the same day as John Dowland's first collection of lute
songs, so they are equal first. Perhaps because Scolar Press did not
include Morley's _Canzonets_ in their English Lute Songs series, or
perhaps because the Stainer & Bell edition omits the tablature, many
people today overlook Morley's 1597 collection of lute songs.

One final caveat. Mensuration signs like "3" are not to be confused
with the "2"s and "3"s found in some French airs de cour, which show
how notes are grouped to follow the natural rhythm of speech. The
music there is generally unbarred, but the "2"s and "3"s are used to
show the equivalent of bars of two or three crotchets. In these
French songs the value of the minims and crotchets stays the s

My Sweetest Lesbia & You Black Bright Stars

[Stewart McCoy]

ing of the
words. "His golden locks" is all about the passage of time. The fast
minims for the first section reflect the jollity of youth. The music
for "O time too swift" is hard for the singer and lutenist to
perform neatly in time, assuming they are taking that first section
at a suitably brisk speed.

Dowland adds to the impression of speed by inserting a hemiola
(three beats instead of two), confirmed by the stress of the words:

  |\ |\
  |  |\
  |. |
_a__c___e__a___a___
_[e]__e___|_a_e__a___|_
__f___|e_|_
b_|_c|_
__c__e|___c_e|_
__|__|_

swift, O swift- nesse ne-   ver

After the words "youth waneth by
increasing", there is a change of mensuration, and the music appears
to slow down. The slow (semibreve) pulse stays the same as it was,
but the minims last longer than they did before, because there are
now only two of them in each semibreve, not three. The gaiety of
youth (in triple time) is replaced by the staidness of old age
(duple time). The almost gabbled "O time too swift" is replaced by
the slower, more dignified "Beautie, strength, youth are flowers but
fading seene; Dutie, Faith, Love are roots and ever greene."

Dowland's songs have been performed and recorded many times over the
years, and it may well be that there are some musicians who keep the
value of the minim constant throughout songs like "His golden
locks". If they do, they completely miss the point.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Gary Digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: My Sweetest Lesbia & You Black Bright Stars


> Dear Stewart;
>
>  If, instead of thinking of this in 3, we were to think of it
in 6, keeping the same pulse, that is, instead of "one, two, three",
"one, two, three", we count "one, two", "three, four", "five, six";
how, if at all, does this differ from hemiola?
>
>
Gary

My Sweetest Lesbia & You Black Bright Stars

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Gary,

Yes. The words certainly give an idea of which notes should ideally
be stressed, and they might well help to indicate the presence of a
hemiola. Generally though, I would think it is the harmonic movement
which counts, when deciding whether or not to hemiolate (if I can
make up a word). After all, hemiolas occur in instrumental music as
well as songs.

The words cannot indicate a change in mensuration. Changes in
mensuration are shown either by mensuration signs or by coloration
(i.e black semibreves and such like). I suppose the reason I have
been making such a fuss over mensuration signs is that so many
people today simply ignore them, and plough on regardless.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Gary Digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: My Sweetest Lesbia & You Black Bright Stars


>
>Dear Stewart;
>
>  Thank  you  for your elegant response to my question. So,
absent
>the  C  with  the  slash  through  it  (C|  ), the  sense of
the lyric
>determines  whether one treats this figuration as an hemiola or
change
>in mesuration?
>
>
All
>the Best,
>
>
Gary

help -article needed

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Alan,

I have been away from home for three weeks, hence the delay in
replying to your e-mail. It seems your request drew a blank.

I have a copy of vol #13 with the article you are after.
Unfortunately my scanner no longer works, or I'd send you a copy.
However, the FoMRHI article is so short that it would be quicker to
copy it manually than go out and find a photocopy machine. The only
problem is how to reproduce the three little sketches, particularly
the third one. I'll do what I can, and hope it will suffice. You'll
need to use a monospaced font like Courrier to get the spacing
right. I've preserved the spelling of "seperate" as it is in the
article.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


_VELLUM AND PARCHMENT ROSES_  FoMRHI Comm. 167

John Rawson

I write from the point of view of the Harpsichord maker, and
harpsichords generally have cruder roses than guitars and citterns.
However, for what its worth, here are some hints.

1. Roses are generally multi-layer constructions involving glue. I
have no answer to the adhesion problem (can anyone help?). It needs
to be an invisible thin clear substance that will stick to the hard
greasy surface of Vellum. Sandpapering the surfaces to be joined
before cutting them greatly increases the chance of Titebond or
white glue holding. Pressure can be applied with a vice or an old
letter press.

2. Using punches makes for speed and accuracy. The trouble with
ordinary hole punches is that they are ground on the outside and
leave bent-down holes like this:

_   _
  \   /  
 \ /

Old work is notably sharp-edged like this:-

__ __
__ __

For holes under 2mm diam therefore use solid pin-punches. These can
be driven through the vellum into a lino backing (better than wood
as it has no grain) and leave a sharp edge. They are available in
various sizes and can be ground down to make smaller sizes and
non-circular shapes.

3. Ordinary hole-punches with outside bevels can be ground to a
half-circle to use as cutters for D-shaped projections. So that

__/\__   __/\__   __/\__
|   ||   ||   ||   |
 \_/  \_/  \_/  \_/

is made of a row of large holes, pairs of small D's and scalpel-cut
points.

4. Straight lines are cut with a scalpel.

5. Multi-layer jobs are done by cutting the top layer first, gluing
it to a blank sheet and then cutting through that and so on.

6. Little trees are formed of pieces stuck on a pin. Paint the head
of the pin.

7. Seperate layers can be held at the right levels in a vellum drum,
sometimes perforated.

8. Wooden parts can be carved with wood-engraving tools.

9. Use of a binocular magnifier helps if your eyes are not as good
as they might be. In any case it improves the quality of
eye-defeating accuracy.

10. It is quite possible to copy the finest old work but you may
find that it takes a very long time.

_Queries_

a. Adhesives?

b. I do not know how to cut the very finest free Gothic tracery,
where the vellum is not strong enough to stand the strain of
cutting.



- Original Message -
From: "Alan Suits" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:39 AM
Subject: help -article needed


> help please! interlibrary loan here in New Mexico is really not
part of =
> the 21st  century world atall...
>  I'm deeply needing a copy of the Fomrhi article on "vellum and =
> parchment rosettes" by Rawson, vol #13 ,1978 .If anybody can xerox
it  =
> and mail it  to me I will more than happily reimburse you for the
=
> costs..!
>  many thanks-
> Alan Suits
>  43 Coyote Mtn Rd
>  Santa Fe,NM 87505-8179
> --
>

Sorry, help me....what to buy????

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Tim,

I once made a cittern from a kit. I constructed it in a friend's
workshop. He kept an eye on what I did. It looks good. The rose is
pretty swish. Unfortunately the grooves for the frets were already
made, and they aren't at 6th-comma meantone. My instrument plays out
of tune. I rarely touch it, in spite of its swish rose.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Timothy Motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy


> Denys,
> I would agree that a stage somewhere in between a box full of
parts and
> a completed lute would be a nice option.  I found that researching
and
> gathering materials almost took more time than the actual
construction.
>
> I take it that you are happy with the cittern kit?  I find that
I'm
> getting very curious about them.  I suppose I should learn the
basics
> with a lute before I go wandering off with other instruments.
>
> Tim
>
> On Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 06:13  PM, Denys Stephens wrote:
>
> > Dear Jon & Tim,
> > I too would be daunted at the prospect of trying to build
> > a lute back, but I have built the RWC cittern and found
> > the pre-shaping of parts and general content of the kit
> > much easier than trying to gather together the necessary
> > materials myself. I understand that they will build any
> > parts for you that you want, so you can order a lute kit
> > with a completed back (at extra cost). It might be an option
> > worth considering.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Denys
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:56 PM
> > Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy
> >
> >
> >>> Jon,
> >> If the pictures on the RWC website are an indication of what
you get
> >> in the kit, you are not much better off than doing it from
scratch on
> >> your own.  It looks like the ribs are not bent nor have their
edges
> >> been planed to the right bevel to join properly.  Shaping the
neck
> >> takes about 30 minutes with a hand plane; it's much easier than
doing
> >> a guitar neck.  The only tough part (unless you had a workshop
and
> >> some luthier's tools) is the peg head and pegs.  I've bought a
batch
> >> of rosewood pegs from a supplier in India, and I would be
willing to
> >> sell you at cost enough for a 6 course lute.  You can easily
build a
> >> jig to glue together the peg head, and if you have a steady
hand, you
> >> can drill the pilot holes for the pegs without a drill press.
Then,
> >> all you would need is a tapered reamer for the peg holes.
> >>
> >> For the bowl, I buy black ash sanded to the right thickness
from
> >> Itasca Wood Products in Minnesota.  It's not birdseye maple,
but it's
> >> good enough for a student lute.  I have a website with pictures
of my
> >> design for a form that is easy to build.
> >>>
> >>> I think I've figured the total materials cost for my lute at
about
> >> $150.
> >>
> >> Tim
> >>
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:07 PM
> >>>> To: Michael; Herbert Ward
> >>>> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>> Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Herbert and Ben (and any others),
> >>>>
> >>>> By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am
not
> >>> challenged
> >>>> as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit
from
> >>> RWC
> >>>> (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I
would be
> >>>> comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the
mold
> >>> and
> >>>> setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book -
but I
> >>> think I
> >>>> have to see it first).
> >>>>
> >>>> So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body
quality? I
> >>> can
> >>>> redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide
glue,
> >>> or
> >>>

Tempering the lute

[Stewart McCoy]

t it vibrates at 81 cycles per second.
To get a note a fourth higher (the 5th course C), you multiply by
4/3:

If G = 81, C = (81x4/3) = 108

You do the same to get the 4th course:

If C = 108, F = (108x4/3) = 144

To get a major third higher for the 3rd course you multiply by 5/4:

If F = 144, A = (144x5/4) = 180

The 2nd course is a fourth higher, so you multiply by 4/3:

If A = 180, D = 240

Finally, for the 1st course you multiply again by 4/3:

If D = 240, G = 320

We should now have ended up two octaves higher than the 6th course.
We started with G = 81. To get an octave higher we multiply by 2, so
to get two octaves higher we have to multiply by 4:

If G (6th course) = 81, G (1st course) = (81x4) = 324.

Unfortunately that's not the same as the 320 we got earlier, by
calculating from one course to the next across the neck of the lute.
The difference between 320 (four intervals of a fourth + one major
third) and 324 (two octaves) is called the syntonic comma. Somehow
or other we have to stretch our intervals, so that 320 can become
324. We can do this many ways:

1) Pythagorean temperament

Keep the four intervals of a fourth (G+C, C+F, A+D, D+G) the same
(pure), and widen the major third between F and A. This means that
all fourths (and consequently fifths) are pure, but the major third
is pretty foul. This sort of temperament was used for mediaeval
music, when there were lots of fourths and fifths in the harmony,
and when they understandably avoided bad-sounding thirds and sixths.

2) Quarter comma meantone

Keep the major third between F and A the same (pure), and widen the
other intervals (the four fourths). This is quarter comma meantone,
because you have divided the syntonic comma into four, and shared it
out amongst the four fourths (between G+C, C+F, A+D, D+G).

3) Fifth comma meantone

Divide the syntonic comma into five, and spread the discrepancy
amongst all the intervals between the strings. The four fourths will
be slightly wider than pure, and the major third between F and A
will also be a little wider than pure.

4) Sixth comma meantone

Again, share the discrepancy out between all the strings, but this
time divide the comma into six portions. Each of the four fourths
will be very slightly closer to pure than with fifth comma meantone,
and the third between F and A will be very slightly wider. In sixth
comma meantone the major third is quite wide, but not as wide as it
would be with equal temperament.

I think that's how it all works. Any comments or corrections will be
welcome.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bill"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy


> bill,
>
> The cittern was originally designed for amateurs (according to my
books),
> the pros preferred the lute. And I heard one played with a harp
this weekend
> (a commercial cittern, it had to be, as the pegs were guitar style
> machines). But the cittern wasn't intended to be a lute.
>
> As to the 6th comma meantone, Stewart will explain that. But there
are many
> tunings for our western scale that are all compromises. If you
want it I'll
> scan a pictorial of the various compromises, and their
relationship to the
> pure tones, and send it. I haven't the vaguest idea what the "6th
comma" is,
> but I do know the Pythagorean comma. Pythagoras made a board with
a string
> (perhaps several, I don't know how good his pitch memory was -
never met the
> man).
>
> The natural overtone scale has a few fractions in it. They confuse
the
> issue. In a tempered scale the octaves which are primary should
come to the
> same result as the fifths (the half lengths). (And if I'm a bit
off in
> saying the details, let the overall principal apply). The half
should add to
> the total, but it doesn't. Five octaves and eight fifths don't
come to the
> same pitch - and the difference is called the Pythgorean comma. So
whatever
> the 6th comma is, it is a compromise in the scale. There are a
number of
> ways to do it, the orchestral piano has fixed pitches, as does the
harp. The
> lute family may not, although once you have set your frets you
have chosen a
> temperament, but on the violin or any unfretted instrument that
can vary.
> Meantone is one choice (and there are several meantones, depending
on
> whether you want to make the fifths closer to the natural, or the
thirds -
> you can never do both). The standard solution is to divide the
octave into
> twelve equal parts by frequency, and this is a compromise. Twelve
hundred
> "cents" to the octave, each half tone worth one hundred "cents".
Works well
> for digital 

Sixth Comma Meantone

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ed,

Seeing as you ask, I use an old Korg MT-1200 set to Vallotti. As I
understand it, Vallotti is the same as sixth comma meantone as far
as the white notes (on the piano) are concerned, so the two
temperaments amount to the same thing.

When I have tuned with the box (by listening to the note, not using
the needle), I play a few chords to make sure everything sounds OK.
I always include these two chords in my check:

_c___d__
_e___d__
_f___f__
_e___f__
_c___f__
_d__

What you say about adding or subtracting two cents from equal
temperament is quite true. I would add that you add or subtract more
and more cents, the further you go round the circle of fifths:

Gb Db  Ab  Eb  Bb  F  C  G  D  A  E  B  F#  C#  G#

So, if you tune A to 440, you add or subtract the following cents
for sixth comma meantone:

Gb(+18) Db(+16)  Ab(+14)  Eb(+12)  Bb(+10)  F(+8)  C(+6)  G(+4)
D(+2)  A  E(-2)  B(-4)  F#(-6)  C#(-8)  G#(-10) etc.

For anyone unfamiliar with the circle of fifths, it is the order you
add sharps or flats to the key signature to make scales:

C - no sharps or flats
G - one sharp (F#)
D - two sharps (F#, C#)
A - three sharps (F#, C#, G#) etc.

or going the other way

F - one flat (Bb)
Bb - two flats (Bb, Eb)
Eb - three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab), etc.

When you go round the circle of fifths with equal temperament, you
get back to where you start, because F# is the same as Gb, C# is the
same as Db, etc. This is why you can talk about "going round the
clock", because there are only twelve different notes. With meantone
temperaments, these pairs of notes are nowhere near the same - F# is
24 cents lower than Gb - about a quarter of a semitone, so the ends
of the circle never meet up.

Best wishes,

Stewart.





- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Sixth Comma Meantone


> >Does anyone know whether there is an electronic tuner that can be
set =
> >for the various meantone tunings, or at least one that will show
exactly =
> >at how many vibrations per second a given string is resonating?
>
> The Peterson V-SAM allows you to save user definable temperament.
> They claim an accuracy of one one-thousandth of a Cent.
>
> >If so, is anyone =
> >mathematician enough to tell me by how much to vary the pitch of
A on =
> >the tuner for each string?
> >...
> >After all these questions, it probably would have been easier
just to =
> >ask Stewart how he goes about tuning the strings to a precise
number of =
> >vibrations per second.
>
> I'd be interested to know that too, but I'll throw in my 2 yen.
Bear
> in mind that's worth less than 2 cents (pun?).
>
> For 6th comma meantone (I assume you've set your frets), tune your
> 1st and 6th courses, then just try to tune the 5th string 2 cents
> sharp; the 4th 4 c sharp; the 2nd 2 c flat the 3rd 4 c flat. In my
> experience, since the pitch of a lute drops over time, and pegs
and
> strings are not perfect, it is very difficult to get it spot on,
but
> that is what I am for. I also have a tastini glued at the first
fret
> on the fourth string for F sharp.
> cheers,
> --
> Ed Durbrow

cordes avalees

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

"Cordes avalées"simply means "lowered strings" (not "swallowed
strings"). As Taco says, there are cordes avalées tunings for the
lute in Francisque's _Le Tresor d'Orphée_ (Paris, 1600).

The earliest use of the French phrase which I can think of off hand
is in those renaissance guitar books printed in France in the
1550's, e.g. "acorde avallée" in Morlaye's _Quatriesme Livre_
(Paris, 1552), 18v. Here the 4th course should be lowered by a tone.
This tuning was known in Spain as the old tuning (temple viejos),
and was used by Mudarra for the first guitar piece in his _Tres
Libros_ (Seville, 1546).

The lute needs to have the 6th course tuned down a tone in sources
as diverse as the Capirola Lute Book and the Willoughby Lute Book. I
think there may be a late 15th century source (Pesaro?) which also
requires the 6th course down a tone, but I can't remember for sure,
and I don't have a copy at home. Dalza (1508) has a tuning where the
5th and 6th courses of the lute have to be tuned down a tone. If I
remember right - I'm sorry I can't put my hand on it to check -
Barberiis has three unusual tunings for the lute in his _Libro
Decimo_ (1549).

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




- Original Message -
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute society" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: cordes avalees


> would someone please explain the term "cordes avalees?"  it's
mentioned
> several times on google but not explained.
>
> cordiale salute - bill
>
>

Dutch folk tune

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

I have been asked by a friend to identify an old Dutch folk tune (in
tablature below). It sounds 16th-century to me, but I can't place
it. Any help will be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Stewart McCoy.

 |\||\   |
 | |||
 | |||
a__c___ea___e__h__e___c
_c___||_|e___|_
_||_||_
_||_||_
_||_||_
_||_||_

 |\||\|
 | || |
 | || |.
_c__a__a__c___e
___e_|_cc_|_e___||_
_||_||_
_||_||_
_||_||_
_||_||_


 |\||\   |
 | |||
 | |||
a__c___ea___e__h__e___c
_c___||_|e___|_
_||_||_
_||_||_
_||_||_
_||_||_

 |\||\ |  |
 | ||  |  |
 | ||  |  |.
_c__a__
___e_|_ce_|_e__b|_c_||_
_||_|___||_
_||_|___||_
_||_|___||_
_||_|___||_

Paulo Galvao

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Doc,

These are the addresses (listed below) which I have found, which
Paulo has used to send messages to Wayne Cripps' Lute Net and to the
Vihuelista (Spanish Vihuela/Lute Net). I suspect they may all be out
of date. If Paulo still subscribes to Wayne's List, he'd have got in
touch with you by now. You could try sending a message via the
Vihuelista, just in case he still subscribes to that.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

PS Alas Roman is right about the musicaliaportugal site, which looks
highly suspicious. I didn't dare click on "Enter".


15/6/01 Lute Net

If you take off the 1st and the 7th courses from a 7th lute you will
have a
lute tuned like a baroque guitar
EAFCG
Paulo Galvao
www.musicalia.co.uk
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

17/1/02 Lute Net

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

3/12/02 Vihuelista

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

28/12/02 Vihuelista

Paulo Galvao
www.musicaliaportugal.com/gc/tablaturas/tablaturas.html
www.pressioni.com/adc/index.html

Paulo's website gives the following:

Musicália Records
Edition and Manangement
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

R do Cemitério, nº15
8600 -713 Lagos.
Portugal
TF. +351 282 767 305

WEBMASTER
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Theorbo arpeggio patterns

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Tom,

I have been away from home, so I'm afraid I come late to this
discussion.

The SPES facsimile of Kapsberger's _Libro Quarto_ is very misleading
with regard to arpeggiation, because the dots have not come out
clearly. I mentioned this in a posting to this list on 14th March
2000.

Kapsberger's dotting is not the same as the modern convention. He
uses one dot for the right-hand thumb, two dots for the index
finger, and three dots for the middle finger.

By and large Kapsberger plays the last note of an arpeggiated chord
with his index finger on the 3rd course, so that the notes are heard
(more or less) in ascending order of pitch (pimi, ppimi, or pppimi).
However, where chords do not involve the first course, he still
maintains the pimi order, presumably to help keep the music bouncing
along. It is easier to keep the right-hand finger pattern the same,
particularly at speed. The fact that finger-pattern takes precedence
over pitch seems to suggest that his arpeggiated chords are to be
played quite quickly.

Three-note chords are to be played imp.

By the way, it is perfectly acceptable to say that "someone" told
you something. Maybe you have forgotten who that person was; maybe
you want to preserve their anonymity; maybe you don't want to name
them, because you have forgotten or misunderstood exactly what they
said. None of that matters. The important thing is to make clear
where one's information comes from (e.g. having seen it in a modern
edition, facsimile or original print, or having heard about it from
someone) which is what you have done.

According to Kapsberger your "t4 i2 m1 t3" should be "t4 i2 m1 i3".
Arpeggiation with Kapsberger's music is similar to playing
campanellas on the baroque guitar or bluegrass music (Scruggs style)
on the five-string banjo: avoid using the same digit twice in
succession.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.






- Original Message -
From: "Tom Leoni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 7:30 PM
Subject: Theorbo arpeggio patterns


> I have recently acquired some theorbo music (Kapsberger &
Piccinini mostly, in facsimile edition).  In two of the books, the
authors explain their preferred way to execute 4-note arpeggios -
but they are extremely unclear, even to someone used to their
language and style.
>
> Someone told me that Kapsberger's preferred 4-note arpeggio
pattern was: t4 i2 m1 t3 :||: (using the first 4 strings as an
example).  I find this rather straightforward in spite of the jump
of the thumb as it strikes the fourth and first notes of the
pattern - but I got used to it pretty quickly.  It becomes a little
harder when the first note of the pattern is one of the lower
orders, although it is still manageable.
>
> Does anyone know whether I got this right - especially as pertains
the music of Kapsberger?
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> -
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> --

Estampie

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Doc,

Sorry to take so long in replying. I have a huge backlog of e-mails
in my inbox.

The piece you are after is an estampie for organ. Part of it is
reproduced in volume 1 of HAM, i.e. Archibald T. Davidson and Willi
Apel, _Historical Anthology of Music_, 2 vols (Cambridge,
Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1946 and 1949), vol.1, page
62, no. 58.

In the commentary at the back they write:

"The main interest of the present example lies in the fact that it
represents the earliest keyboard music which has been preserved. It
occurs, together with a few other pieces, in the so-called
Robertsbridge Codex of about 1325 (cf. _ApNPM_, p. 37f). It is a
long composition in the form of the estampie ... but far removed
from the original dance connotatio of this form. Three of six puncti
are reproduced here. From the stylistic point of view, the
old-fashioned parallel fifths and the hocket passages are
noteworthy. Although the composition is usually considered to be of
English origin, internal features, particularly notational details,
point to Italy. Source: H. E. Wooldridge, _Early English Harmony_,
vol. 1 (1897), plate 43."

So only half the piece is in HAM. My guess is that there is a modern
edition of the whole piece somewhere else. However, if it's not too
late, and you don't have access to HAM, please contact me off list.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "doc rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:20 PM
Subject: estampie


> Can anyone out there help me find the notes to the 14th c. English
> estampie from the Robertsbridge codex? It's the one that's often
used
> to illustrate 'hocket'.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doc
>
> Strada della Repubblica 45
> 43100 Parma (PR)
> Italy
>
> http://www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi
> tel: (+39) 0521 23 48 68
> cell: (+39) 348 8000 572
>
>
>

Dutch folk tune 2

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

Many thanks to those of you who wrote to me about the Dutch folk
tune. Unfortunately my friend still cannot find the melody he is
after with the information I gave him. He writes:

-o-O-o-

I have found a on the internet  a copy of
"Slaet op den trommele" but it seems to have a different melody, A
more
modern edition in stave notation mid 20th century. It attibutes the
melody to
Geuzenliedboek 1566.

See:
http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Liedjes/slaetopdentrommele.gif

Can anyone else give more detail as I have not yet found a copy of
the
original.

-o-O-o-

Is there any more information on this song which I could pass on to
him?

Many thanks,

Stewart McCoy.





- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:52 AM
Subject: Dutch folk tune


> Dear All,
>
> I have been asked by a friend to identify an old Dutch folk tune
(in
> tablature below). It sounds 16th-century to me, but I can't place
> it. Any help will be much appreciated.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Stewart McCoy.
>
>  |\||\   |
>  | |||
>  | |||
> a__c___ea___e__h__e___c
> _c___||_|e___|_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
>
>  |\||\|
>  | || |
>  | || |.
> _c__a__a__c___e
> ___e_|_cc_|_e___||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
>
>
>  |\||\   |
>  | |||
>  | |||
> a__c___ea___e__h__e___c
> _c___||_|e___|_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
> _||_||_
>
>  |\||\ |  |
>  | ||  |  |
>  | ||  |  |.
> _c__a__
> ___e_|_ce_|_e__b|_c_||_
> _||_|___||_
> _||_|___||_
> _||_|___||_
> _||_|___||_
>
>
>

Pronunciation and meaning

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Craig,

A ricercar is a freely composed instrumental piece, not a song, and
not a dance. I believe that the idea of "seeking out" is important
in how we go about playing a ricercar. When I play, for example,
Capirola's Ricercar Primo, I imagine that I am Capirola trying to
find something in the music, experimenting, trying different musical
ideas, to see if I can light upon that elusive, indefinable
something or other. I try this, try that, try something else to see
if it is what I am after. I listen carefully to every chord, to each
phrase I play. No. That's no good. Let's try something different.
Ah, that's nice. Let's see if that phrase works better down a tone,
or maybe down another tone. I play the whole piece as if I am making
it all up as I go along, thinking about what to play next, even
though I'm really reading the music. The piece is an exploration in
sound. Of course one never actually discovers what it is one is
looking for. It is the seeking out - the quest - which is the
important thing.

Try playing a ricercar with that mindset, and see how you get on.
The chances are that you will play the piece more expressively than
you would have done, if you just hacked through it thoughtlessly.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 3:20 PM
Subject: Pronunciation and meaning


> Greetings Scholars,
>
> I have for some time been puzzling over the pronunciation of a
word that is
> common to our music. Finally I dug out my copy of Webster's New
World
> Italian Dictionary and looked up the word ricercare. Now I have
seen this
> word spelled riceracr and ricercare, but the dictionary only had
ricercare,
> so I am guessing that the different spellings are simply
variations of the
> same word. At any rate I was rewarded with a phonetic breakdown of
the word
> which rendered it's correct pronunciation for me. However, in
looking up
> the word another puzzle presented itself, and that is what the
word means.
> The dictionary's definition runs thus;
>
> ricercare [rit(a symbol representing sh as in sheep)er'kare]
transitive
> verb (onore, gloria) to seek; (successo, piacere) to pursue;
(motivi,
> cause) to look for, try to determine; e ricercato dalla polizia
he's wanted
> by the police. (NB: Naturally I don't believe either the music or
the
> composer is wanted by the police, though with some itinerate
musicians one
> can never tell.)
>
> What does this word mean with respect to the music of the lute?
How do I
> interpret this word when interpreting the music as I play it? I
think this
> is important, but I'm at a loss as to how to define it in terms of
the
> music. I've been going through Dick Hoban's booklet of 16
ricercars from
> the Siena Lute Manuscript (which is what prompted me to finally
look up the
> pronunciation) and I think having a better understanding of the
word itself
> in terms of the music will help me in understanding how to better
interpret
> that music. I've got the companion CD to this book, but I have not
yet been
> able to hear any sense of seeking or pursuit in the pieces played.
Maybe
> I'm missing something essential.
>
> As always, your greater experience and wisdom is appreciated.
>
> Regards,
> Craig

Lute on Open Air Festival

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

Presumably you performed Dowland's "Flow not so fast ye fountaines"
and Byrd's "Compel the hawk". The message you remember with such
nostalgia was David Rastall's "Life, the universe..." on 14th March
2004, when he wrote:

"Actually, the height of renaissance versimilitude:  I bet I'm the
only modern lute player who actually played an orgy.  A friend of
mine asked me (it was about 20 years ago) if I could stand in for
him entertaining as a lutenist at a private party in Newport Beach,
CA.  Like a fool, I said yes.  He didn't tell me it was a swing
party!  Interesting gig!"

Returning to Thomas Schall's thread, I would add that we lute
players have a problem. Give a formal lute recital, and you'll be
lucky if you attract a sizeable audience; play in an informal
situation, and you will charm the world. The lute may be unfamiliar
to most people, yet when they hear it, they usually enjoy it.

A friend of mine down at The Plough once said that he wouldn't dream
of going to a lute concert, but if he happened to be in a historic
building, and someone was playing a lute, he'd enjoy it very much.
For him it is all a question of context.

I have played to people who have never heard a lute before, in
historic buildings, in schools, at weddings, in private houses, and
so on, and given a lot of pleasure. There are all kinds of
situations other than recitals, where the lute can be heard to good
effect, although I doubt whether an orgy is an appropriate occasion.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




- Original Message -
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Lute on Open Air Festival


>
> On Lunedì, ago 23, 2004, at 17:16 Europe/Rome, Herbert Ward wrote:
> >
> > I stopped at a roadside rest area.
> > Dozens or hundreds of wild birds were
> > singing, so I went to get my lute from the car.
> >
> >
>
> basho lives!
>
> i once played my oud by a quiet fountain in bologna because i
heard
> that playing near an open body of water has a nice effect on the
sound.
>
> all i did was shoo the pigeons away and attract winos.
>
> - bill
>
> ps - is no one going to own up to this orgy gig?

mandour

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

There are facsimiles of the Ulm manuscripts of mandore music
published by Cornetto Verlag. The quality is not at all good, but
it's better than nothing.

There is an article about the Skene manuscript by Donald Gill in
_The Lute_. I can't remember which year off hand, but it was about
1988.

Rob MacKillop's mandore was made by Peter Forrester. The size was
deduced from that painting. Apparently people who know about playing
cards have identified the playing cards in the painting, from which
it is possible to calculate the size of the mandore. It is tiny.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.



- Original Message -
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lautenliste" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: mandour


> would anyone be able to tell me where i could find information
> concerning the mandour, particularly info. with photos?  it seems
to be
> a popular name in the middle east and most of what comes up from
the
> search engine reflects that.
>
> any help would be appreciated.
>
> thank you - bill

Unusual time signatures

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

I have been using Francesco Tribioli's excellent Fronimo software a
lot recently. There are a couple of things which it cannot
officially do, but I have found ways round the difficulty:

1) The value of the tablature rhythm signs does not match the staff
notation. Fronimo incorrectly equates

|\
|

with a crotchet (quarter note) instead of a minim (half note).
However, if you put up with this while inserting data, it is
possible to listen to the music and edit it. If, on the other hand,
you want to print off the music with the correct note values, put
the cursor on the tablature stave, click on "Edit" and "Half
rhythmic values". The tablature will then be printed with the
correct note values. This change has to be the very last thing done
before printing, otherwise things like vertical alignment will all
go to pot.

2) Fronimo does not offer unusual time signatures like 5/8. However,
there is a way round this. For tablature click on "Bar attributes",
on "Text", and on "New". Enter "5" in the wide window top left,
press return, and enter "8". Set the "x pos" to 3, the "character
height" to 18, the "alignment" to "center", and the "y pos" to -14.
That should give a time signature of 5/8.

For staff notation the character height needs to be smaller, say 14,
and the "y pos" needs to be -8 or thereabouts.

The key signature will appear superimposed over the first note of
the bar, but if you press "Insert", the music will move sideways to
leave a space for the time signature, leaving everything all Sir
Garnet.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

Unusual time signatures 2

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Francesco,

Many thanks indeed for your message. I'm sorry to hear about your
problems with Linux. I cannot begin to imagine the complexity of
creating computer software like Fronimo. It is an incredibly useful
programme, and enables me to do all sorts of things I could never
have hoped to do before. Good luck with preparing the new updated
version. I look forward to seeing it when it is ready.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Roman Turovsky'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Stewart McCoy'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Lute Net'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:52 PM
Subject: R: Unusual time signatures


Dear Stewart,
Fronimo 3 will have both this irregular meters, like 5/8 and 7/8,
and the way to change the default association between |\ and the
mensural
notation value (it may be wrong but often I prefer the old
equivalence for
transcriptions 8^)). It will have the possibility to have a
different
notation character dimension in tablature and notation and finally
the
possibility to choose, staff per staff, the space to be left between
a staff
and the one immediately below.

Actually, most things are close to work reasonably well. I've still
to add
the page mode editing and to finish revising the help file. I've
decided to
leave out for now the baroque guitar complete support, otherwise
this new
release will never be out... It will come as a free upgrade in the
future.
Still I cannot give a date at which Fronimo mk. 3 will be ready.
This month
I wanted to work to the page mode editing but the installation of
the latest
release of Linux on a different disk actually corrupted the other
disk,
where I had WinXP, so I've had to reinstall everything from
scratch...
Computers... Argh!!! 8^)

Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Inviato: martedì 24 agosto 2004 23.20
> A: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
> Oggetto: Re: Unusual time signatures
>
>
> Fronimo III will.
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>
> > From: "Stewart McCoy"
> > 2) Fronimo does not offer unusual time signatures like 5/8.

Lute on Open Air Festival 2

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

There's nothing wrong with Hip (Historically Informed Performance).
If we want to play music from the past, it makes sense to find out
as much as we can about how that music was once played. I can think
of two reasons:

1) Academic, i.e. studying history for its own sake out of
curiosity. There's nothing wrong with wanting to increase our
knowledge. Ignorance is not necessarily bliss.

2) Practical. The chances are that people in the past understood
their music, and there is often a good practical reason for us to
copy what they did.

Take frets, for example. People in the 16th and 17th centuries were
quite able to use metal frets fixed in place on the fingerboard.
They did so with citterns, bandoras and orpharions. Yet they chose
to use gut frets for lutes and viols. It makes sense to use metal
frets with metal strings, because gut frets would soon wear away
with metal strings. The advantage of having gut frets tied round the
neck of a lute or viol (instead of metal frets fixed in place) is
that you can move the frets to where you would like them to be; you
are thus able to fine-tune your tuning.

Being historically informed should enhance one's performance, not
get in the way. The problem is where history becomes an end in
itself, and the player is so wrapped up in it, that he forgets that
his primary aim is to entertain other people. There is no reason why
a Hip performance has to be dull.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.






- Original Message -
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:21 AM
Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Lute on Open Air Festival



On Martedì, ago 24, 2004, at 00:59 Europe/Rome, Stewart McCoy wrote:

>  The message you remember with such
> nostalgia


got that right.  i've reached an age where if i were hired to play
an
orgy i think i could guarantee them more or less continuous music
throughout.

interesting point about the context in which the music is presented.
i
blame this mania for hip.  if lute players were a little less
strident
in their concerns for how the music should be played, we'd probably
hear a lot more of it.

this could involve unimaginable things such as electrified lutes
with
geared metal tunings pegs, metal frets and resin fiber bodies in
lurid
colors with metal flakes...

roll over dowland...
..roll up to the venue.

- bill

Lute on Open Air Festival 3

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman and Stephan,

If limericks are unwelcome, you could always try a clerihew:

Stephan Olbertz
Hat großen Schmerz.
Ihm gefällt leider nicht
Romans Limerick-Dicht.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Lute on Open Air Festival


> Luter Olbertz of old Wupperthal
> oft encouraged himself "Dieu, pas mal"
> badly though he sang
> 'bout Sturm and 'bout Drang
> nach dem Spring, in der Wald, in der Thal.
> RT


> > Couldn't hardly stand those limericks anymore! :-)

> > Regards,
> >
> > Stephan

Lute on Open Air Festival 2

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

The question of HIP is not confined to the world of early music. In
the field of bluegrass, for example, there are enthusiasts who
transcribe music from records, and learn to play note for note the
semi-improvised music of such luminaries as Earl Scruggs and Bill
Keith. So keen are they to be accurate, that they even copy and play
mistakes which have crept into the recording. That's ridiculous.
It's like those lute players who read from facsimile, and play every
note they see, "because it's in the original", regardless of any
human error on the part of the scribe or printer.

The more you learn about the lute, the wider will be your knowledge
and experience of the instrument and its music, and the better you
will play. You don't have to end up playing like an introverted
anorak, just because you know something about the music.

The mistake is to equate HIP with being boring. Both HIP and non-HIP
are equally capable of being boring or not boring. For example, if I
were to imitate exactly your gleeful murdering of "tempus est
iocundum" complete with American accent and accompaniment
of Bolivian charango, it could be very dull. On the other hand, it
could be highly entertaining.

Some years ago people used the word "authentic" to describe
performances of early music. The word implied that a performance was
exactly how it would have been years ago. Yet no modern performance
can be truly authentic, which is why it is now fashionable to talk
of HIP (historically informed performance). I think it is an
important distinction to make.

The Beatles performed their music in the 1960s. It was a new,
exciting sound, created by a group of young, long-haired musicians.
John Lennon and George Harrison are now dead, yet even if they were
still alive, and even if the four members of the group wanted to
play together again, they would never be able to recreate those
earlier performances. It could never be the same.

There is a group called the Bootleg Beatles, who give concerts of
Beatles music, copying as closely as possible what the Beatles once
did. Their attention to detail is impressive, yet they cannot be
truly authentic, because they are not the real Beatles. All they can
hope to offer is a historically informed performance. I have been
told that they are extremely entertaining. To some extent that's
what we do with our lutes, although mercifully, even within the
confines of a historically informed performance, there is much scope
for improvisation and individual input.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



- Original Message -----
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: Lute on Open Air Festival 2


> i've been riding around on my tractor all morning mulling over
what you
> say in your letter (since joining the list, "early music" and all
its
> concerns have replaced dark, dead-end metaphysics as a prime topic
of
> internal debate).
>
> it occurs to me that formally trained musicians and composers like
> yourself have always been at odds with "musicians" like me who
will
> gleefully murder a tune and disregard learned opinion if it
"feels" ok
> to do so.
>
> this must be very irritating.
>
> the only consolation i can offer you is that this haughty disdain,
on
> one part and "don't care" obstinacy, on the other, is probably
very
> much in keeping with the hip ethos.  your lot were probably
slagging
> off my lot, centuries ago.
>
> this is only because the confines of hip seem to exclude the sort
of
> music i'm interested in - music i would like to know more about if
> documentation on it existed - but which (apparently) doesn't.
>
> i understand that medieval music was more or less the same for all
but
> that with the coming of the renaissance, music moved into the city
and
> music of the country - european, "country" music - seems to have
> disappeared off the face of the earth - or so the absence of
> documentation would suggest.  i don't think country people ceased
to
> sing and play their instruments when their city slicker cousins
began
> ignoring their efforts but speculation from the present -
informed,
> intuitive intelligent or otherwise - does not appear to be a
virtue
> with the advocates of hip.
>
> the delineation between baroque, renaissance and medieval music
> probably didn't even exist in the country.  more than likely, for
them
> it was just continuous, uninterrupted "music."
>
> so here i am, simply delighted to be amongst you as i strum my
bolivian
> made vihuela de mano (nee: charango), sing "tempus est iocundum"
with a
> slight - but discernible - american accent and put an ancient
"two"
> together with a very modern "two" and arrive at what i hope is a
> timeless (and therefore extremely un-hip) "four."
>
> kindest regards - bill
>
>
>

Lute on Open Air Festival 3

[Stewart McCoy]

Danke vielmals, Stephan. Sehr schön. :-)

Die Leber ist von einem Hecht, und nicht von Löwen ... bräu.
Das Bier schmeckt gut, und gibt noch einen Reim wie S. McCoy.

Die Leber ist von einem Hecht, und nicht von einem Nerz,
Und beste Wünsche geb' ich Dir, dem Dichter S. Olbertz.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:06 PM
Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Lute on Open Air Festival 3


> Dear Stewart and Roman,
>
> or perhaps an old German Leberreim:
>
> Die Leber ist von einem Hecht, und nicht von einem Biber,
> so mancher liebt den Limerick, mir ist der Haiku lieber.
>
> Die Leber ist von einem Hecht und nicht von einem Schwein,
> den Reim auf Deutsch, den schaff ich noch, auf Englisch lass
> ich's sein.
>
> Die Leber ist von einem Hecht und nicht von einem Leu,
> trotz größter Müh gelingt's nur schlecht: Reimen wie McCoy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephan
>
>
> Am 26 Aug 2004 um 2:18 hat Stewart McCoy geschrieben:
>
> > Dear Roman and Stephan,
> >
> > If limericks are unwelcome, you could always try a clerihew:
> >
> > Stephan Olbertz
> > Hat großen Schmerz.
> > Ihm gefällt leider nicht
> > Romans Limerick-Dicht.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Stewart McCoy.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Lute on Open Air Festival
> >
> >
> > > Luter Olbertz of old Wupperthal
> > > oft encouraged himself "Dieu, pas mal"
> > > badly though he sang
> > > 'bout Sturm and 'bout Drang
> > > nach dem Spring, in der Wald, in der Thal.
> > > RT
> >
> >
> > > > Couldn't hardly stand those limericks anymore! :-)
> >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Stephan

Lute on Open Air Festival 2

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Wayne,

I can do no better than refer to a message of mine to this list on
10th October 2003 entitled "new vocabulary":

-o-O-o-

1) An anorak is a hooded waterproof outer jacket. It comes from the
Greenland Eskimo's word for a fur coat. In recent years it has
become associated with train-spotters, people who frequent railway
stations to spot new trains, and collect the train numbers in their
little note-books. It is a happy, harmless pastime, and there are
lots of people who do it. Unfortunately many others see this as a
worthless activity pursued by characterless people. Train-spotters
often wear anoraks to keep warm, as they stand on cold, damp railway
platforms.

The phrase "sad anorak" now extends to anyone who pursues a minority
interest in a compulsive sort of way. "Sad" is used in the modern
(colloquial) sense of "pitiful". To that extent anyone who is sad
enough to play the lute or subscribe to this list must be a sad
anorak.

-o-O-o-

I hope that helps. :-)

All the best,

Stewart.




- Original Message -
From: "Wayne Cripps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:07 PM
Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Lute on Open Air Festival 2


>
>
> Hi Stewart -
>
>  what is an anorak?  An uninformed yank wants to know.
> I know it can be a kind of coat or hood..
>
>   Wayne
>
> > You don't have to end up playing like an introverted
> > anorak, just because you know something about the music.
> >

hip

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

One of the disadvantages of this list is that we rarely meet each
other. We may exchange views about this and that via e-mail, but we
have to be brief, and we don't really get a chance to understand
fully what we all think. There will inevitably be different points
of view. That's fine. However, I think it is a mistake to see
discussions in terms of "them and us", and certainly to imagine what
others may think, when they haven't even expressed an opinion.

We discuss many things on this list, mainly about lutes, about
playing technique, musical sources, making instruments, and so on.
Much of it concerns history, and, as you say, it is interesting to
know what happened in the past. However, that is not to say that
some of us may be interested in other things too, including some of
the things which you have been mentioning.

I think what you are saying is that there are several ways we can
use the lute and its music apart from trying to play in a
historically informed way. I agree. You are absolutely right. We can
use the lute and its music as we think fit, just as Ray Charles and
Jimi Hendrix did their own thing with other people's music. Benjamin
Britten's use of "Come heavy sleep" is hardly a historical
performance, yet in his Nocturne for guitar he uses Dowland's song
to create something entirely new, and something quite special. Other
less esoteric examples are also valid, including, no doubt, your
performances with a charango. Why should any of us object to that?

In a week's time about 40 members of the Lute Society will meet at
Hengrave Hall. It is possible that anything up to half of them will
be playing their lute with a modern, Segovia-style, free-hand,
thumb-outside, right-hand position. We all know that this technique
was not how the lute was normally played in the 16th century. It is
possible that those who play that way are primarily guitarists, and
cannot cope with more than one technique. It doesn't matter. They
are all welcome.

Ironically enough your broad view of music is actually quite HIP,
because people in the past adapted music to their various needs:
music by Holborne, for example, survives in arrangements for
cittern, for lute, for bandora, for 5-part ensemble, for consort (of
six), and for keyboard. Arrange it for charango, and you'll be
utterly HIP. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




- Original Message -
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gary Digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 12:22 PM
Subject: hip


> good point and a fine distinction.
>
> for me, the whole historic recreation genre ( civil war, medieval
> banquet, paint-by-numbers, etc. ) is an end to itself.  it is
> interesting; both musically ( in our case ) and historically but
it's
> just one of many possible artistic interpretations for any given
piece.
>
> i may have the wrong end of the stick but the emphasis placed on
hip by
> some on the list would seem to imply that the original
interpretation
> of any given piece is the best - best in the sense of being the
most
> valid by being closer to what the composer had in mind - than any
> subsequent interpretation.
>
> ray charles's rendition of "america" is absolutely stunning; in a
> different way, so is jimi hendrix's treatment of "the star
spangled
> banner."  i image you hear both on a daily basis back in the
states but
> for the few times that i've heard them over here, i have to say
that
> both are unusual, interesting - arresting, even - and "fresh"
> renditions of what would normally be - especially in an election
year -
> two very hackneyed compositions.  i imagine irving berlin would be
> thrilled with charles's rendition; francis scott key would
probably be
> having seizures.
>
> if hip were to be taken up by "patriots" and laws passed
concerning the
> historically informed performance of these songs ( not entirely
out of
> the realm of possibility ) i think you would see just how
heavy-handed,
> oppressive - and above all, interfering - the restrictions of hip
can
> get.
>
> salute - bill
>
>

hip

[Stewart McCoy]

- Original Message - 
From: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: hip


i'm speechless...  you'll be relieved to hear.

thank you very much, stewart.

sincerely - bill

Dear Bill,

I hope you're not speechless too long. I like what you write. :-)

All the best,

Stewart.

Consort version of My Lady Hundsons?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Rainer and Ed,

A consort part survives (presumably for flute) for My Lady Hunsdon's
Puffe. I wrote about it last year. Here are extracts from the
relevant e-mails, both on the subject "Puffe".

19th March 2003:

Diana Poulton gives a lot of information about My Lady Hunsdon's
Almande (or Puffe) in her book, _John Dowland_ (London, Faber and
Faber, 1972). I have a copy of the new, revised edition of 1982, and
the relevant information is on page 161. There is too much to
reproduce here. Suffice it to say that the piece turns up in Italian
sources, including one where the piece is ascribed to Donino Garsi,
son or nephew of Santino Garsi.

One thing Diana Poulton does not mention is that there is a fragment
of music, presumably for broken consort, which includes a flute part
for My Lady Hunsdon's Almande. I think it was Robert Spencer who
gave me a copy of it many years ago, but unfortunately I can't lay
my hands on it at the moment. It will be somewhere at home. I think
the fragment came to light after Diana had died, so she wouldn't
have known about it. Anyway, the point is that the piece seems to
have existed in an arrangement for broken consort.

23rd March 2003:

In fact there are two sources which mention "puffe".
The other one is the fragment of music I mentioned
on the List the other day: Oxford, Christ Church
Mus. 1252. This fragment consists of two pages
from a part-book - numbered 30 and 31 - which
together fit on an A4 sheet of paper. On page 31 is
an inner part for My Lady Hunsdon's Puffe,
presumably a flute part for a broken consort setting,
but not necessarily so, because no instrument is
mentioned.

The fragment was removed in 1989 from Allestree
T.1.3, an Oxford binding of a printed book dated
1644. I have Robert Spencer to thank for the
information and for giving me a photocopy of the
fragment to study.

-o-O-o-

I would have thought it would be easy enough to reconstruct a
consort arrangement of My Lady Hunsdon's Puffe using the surviving
part. It would sound very jolly.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "adS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: consort version of My Lady Hundsons?


> Ed Durbrow wrote:
> > Is there a consort version of My Lady Hundsons or any versions
> > significantly different from the one in Poulton?
>
>
> There is no consort version.
>
> I seem to remember that a single part of a mixed consoret version
has survived.
>
> Otherwise:
>
> Dd.5.78.3, 7r, No Title
> 6402, 1v/2, "My lady hunssdons puff  Doulland"
> Folger, 22v, "My Lady Hunsdons Allmande Jo: dowlande Bacheler of
musick"
> Dd.9.33, 38r/1, "J Dowla[nde]"
> 4022, 44v/3-45r/1, "Balletto la pace"
>
>
> Rainer adS
>
>

Fingering

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Mathias,

Presumably the 2nd finger for g1 at the start of bar 25 is indicated
in the source. If so, and the 1st finger (barré) plays f5, all you
have left is the 3rd and 4th finger to choose from. The 4th finger
is unrealistic (too short to reach across the fingerboard), so it
has to be the 3rd finger for the appoggiatura at g5 (on f5) in bar
25.

It might be tempting to try using the 3rd finger for g1, in which
case you can ornament f5 with the 2nd finger, as you did in the
previous bar. The disadvantage of this is that you cannot keep g1
ringing on for long, because you soon have to stretch along the
fingerboard for i3.

At least, that's what I thought before trying it out on a lute. Now
that I've tried it out, I am convinced that using the 2nd finger for
g1 and the 3rd finger for g5 works best. There is more torque for
the ornament with the 3rd finger on g5, and, apart from the brief
excursion of the 3rd finger across the fingerboard, the left hand
stays correctly in position - one finger per fret. Using the 3rd
finger for g1 puts the hand out of position, making it harder to
hold down the barré.

My conclusion is that the appoggiatura in bar 25 really does need to
be played with the ring finger, odd though it may appear.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 7:02 PM
Subject: fingering


> Mouton, Premier livre, p. 58-9 (double de retour du Depit), bars
24-5,
> reads
>
>   |\   |\
>   ||
>
> -f---h---|--2g|
> -|---f|
> -| i-2g-f-|
> ---f)--a-|-/- -.--|-.-|
> --2gf)-|-|-|f)|
> ---|||-\--- --|
>   a
>
> Has the appogiatura on f5 in bar 25 really-really to be executed
with
> the ringfinger, or are there other solutions?
>
> --
> Best,
>
> Mathias

hip

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman,

I think it's a fair question, because towns and villages have been
around for many centuries, as have the rich and the poor. It is
reasonable to suppose that music has not always been the same for
all strata of society. However, it is difficult to give a thorough
answer through lack of evidence. The music of illiterate musicians
tends not to get written down and recorded for posterity. We know
quite a bit about church music, because much of it was written down.

As far as I can ascertain, art music before c.1500 was largely the
preserve of the professional musician. The 16th century saw the
flourishing of amateur music-making, which happens to coincide with
the use of tablature for the lute. Henry VIII was no doubt an
important influence on amateur music-making in England, having all
his children study music and learn the lute. Yet instruments were
expensive, so they remained the preserve of wealthy people.

To answer Bill's question, I would suggest that people out in the
country would probably not have heard as much music as townfolk, but
they would have sung, and a few might have played instruments such
as the bagpipe or hurdy-gurdy. Breughel's painting of a meal with a
bagpiper is the sort of image I have for country music: simple tunes
with no more than a drone for accompaniment. Polyphony would have
been for the church or sophisticated musical circles. Lutes and
viols were played by professionals or wealthy amateurs, but would
have been too expensive for most people.

Occasionally we get a glimpse of what music might have sounded like
away from church and court, when folk tunes are incorporated into
some more sophisticated setting. Besard's Branles de Village (1603),
for example, give us a taste of what rustic music-making may have
been like, albeit through the medium of a lute duet.

In many ways I agree with what you say about the separation of mass
culture and elite culture. It is too simplistic to say that country
folk had their music, wealthy folk had theirs, and never the twain
should meet. No doubt there was an overlap between the two.

Some of the earliest Scots tunes consisted of a single melodic line,
a narrow range of notes, and were sometimes pentatonic. However,
they don't survive in that simple form. Instead they survive in lute
tablature, with bass notes added for the sake of the lute, crudely
tracking the original melody in consecutive octaves. This old
pentatonic melody has been adapted in that way:

 |\  |\ |\ |\
 |\  |\ |  |\
 |   |\ |  |
___
a|___|_,a|_
___d_|_a_a_d_|__a|_
_a___|c__|___|_
_|___|__c|_
_|_c_|___|_
 a   //a

One famous occasion when folk music upstaged more high-brow music,
was when Queen Mary pulled Henry Purcell down a peg or two. She'd
heard enough of Purcell's music, and wanted something a bit easier
on her ear, so she asked Mrs Arabella Hunt to sing the Scots folk
song, Cold and Raw, to the accompaniment of a lute.

The irony is that when people like Cecil Sharp start collecting and
notating traditional music and dance, they destroy an element of
that culture, i.e. the way it evolves naturally of its own accord.
Writing it down fossilises it. Yet if such things were not written
down, they would be lost altogether.

Much the same goes for lute music. When Bill writes about
historically informed performances as "music in aspic", it's the
fossilisation which bothers him. Old music can be like a dead
creature preserved in a bottle of formaldehyde. I believe that, if
we want to understand music which was played many years ago, we
should study it as much as possible, but when we come to perform it,
our primary aim should be to do what we can to bring it back to
life.

Best wishes,

Stewart.




- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Stewart McCoy"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: hip


> > earlier this year i asked a question about early country music -
what
> > were untrained, informal instrumentalists of the time playing
outside
> > the traditional, well documented repertoire of renaissance and
baroque
> > music in the towns?
> Separation of mass-culture from elite-culture is a much later
phenomenon, so
> the question wasn't very appropriate.
> RT
>

A Wemyss Tale

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Rob,

Absolutely brilliant! Nice for you to pop by. You really should
write a book about your gigs. They are hilariously funny, and so
true to life.

Many subscribers to this List will have missed your Gig from Hell
story, either because they were not subscribers at the time, or
because you sent it to the Baroque Lute List, rather than to the
main list. You sent it over five years ago, on 17th July 1999. It
really is a classic, one of the funniest messages I've had the
pleasure of reading on this list, so I reproduce it for everyone
below:

[NB One extremely rude word is essential to portray the incongruity
of the situation, yet Wayne's Spam filter blocked it, when I tried
posting this message to the list yesterday. The rude word began with
"f", was followed by the 5th vowel, then two different consonants
sounding the same, and finally "-in" (without "g"). To by-pass
Wayne's filter I have replaced the rude word with "ff". Like
Rob, I hope no-one will be offended by its exceptional use here.]

-o-O-o-

While we are on the subject of the Balcarres MS,
I thought I would entertain you all with a tale from
present day Scotland, and what it is like to play
Scottish lute music here.

I recently played a gig at Methil Community Centre.
Methil is the coal village surrounding Wemyss Castle,
which is still occupied by the Wemyss family. The
Wemyss family owned the mines before they were
nationalised. I once phoned the head of the family
and told them of their ancestor's lute manuscript -
which, incredibly, they did not know about - and
asked if I could come to the castle and play the music
to the family. I was told that they were 'not the slightest
bit interested' ! This should have warned of what was
to come...

The coal industry has left Methil, and the village has
suffered high unemployment and its attendant miseries.
It is a very rough neighbourhood indeed. The Wemyss
family still run a feudal society, with the local council
paying feu duty the family. They own all the land around.
They are not at all liked by the miners families, in fact it
is fair to say that they are hated - not too strong a word
in this context.

Along comes Rob MacKillop, financed by 'Arts in Fife',
a government institution, to play Scottish lute music,
mainly from Fife - Balcarres and Wemyss...

Luckily I don't play from a printed program, preferring
instead to play it by ear and announce pieces as I feel like
playing them. Over the years I have built up a reservoir of
Scottish lute and 'guittar' pieces to choose from. So it
came as a great surprise to audience (which was in single
figures) to hear me announce music from the Wemyss
manuscript. There was a rumble of discontent as I related
the story about young Margaret Wemyss who wrote the
manuscript down between the ages of 11 and 18. Suddenly
one man stood up and shouted 'If you play any ff music
by they bastards, I'll kick your ff head in!', which kind of
stopped me in my tracks! Well I'm six foot three and come
from a rough, poor neighborhood myself, so I replied 'If
you don't sit down and shut up, I'll kick your ff head in!',
which kind of stopped him in his tracks. The music was
heard in total silence, followed by no applause.

There is no such thing as early music here, music from
another time and, usually, place. This stuff is as alive as it
ever was. I don't think I will be invited back...

(Please don't start a flame war about the swear words).
Rob
--
Rob MacKillopHomepage:
http://www.sol.co.uk/r/rennimackillop
11 Joppa Terrace
Edinburgh
EH15 2HY
Scotland

-o-O-o-

I just hope we don't have to wait another five years before we get
another. :-)

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Red Blues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 7:05 PM
Subject: A Wemyss Tale


>
> Just thought I'd pop by to donate the following:
>
> A Wemyss Tale by Rob MacKillop
>
> Some of you will recall my 'Gig From Hell' experience of playing
music from
> the Wemyss manuscript to local louts near the Wemyss Estate. Last
night I
> had another fraught, yet amusing, experience - this time from the
other side
> of the great divide: I performed inside Wemyss Castle itself.
>
> About five years ago I contacted the Estate with the idea of
performing
> music from the Wemyss ms in the environment it was compiled in,
only to be
> told, quite incredulously, that 'we are not interested'. Last
night I
> entered from the back door, as it were. The Architectural
Historian for
> Dundee University, Dr Charles McKean, had organised an
international
> symposium for architectural historians from Spain, Italy, France,
The
> Netherlands and England - about twenty-five academics in total.
Over five
> days they visited a number of important landmarks all over
Scotland. Last
> night they landed for dinner (after a brief trip to the nearby
Balcarres
> House) in Wemyss Castle, and I was invited to perform.
>
> Now, I have always known, d

Ravenscroft 'Remember God's goodness'

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Charles,

God's Goodness is only one of several things one is urged to
remember in this song. The first line is "Remember O thou man", and
it comes from Ravenscroft's _Melismata_ (London, 1611). This book is
available in facsimile on the Internet.

You don't say if you want an intabulation of all four voices or just
the lowest three. It's easy enough to do either. I'd start with the
highest voice, add the bass, and then fill in what I could of the
inner part(s), always making sure it is playable on the lute. Extra
fill-ins, passing notes, and other formulae may be added to taste
later.

Here's the Treble:

 |\|\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\
 | |  |\ |   |  |\ |   |  |\ |
 | |. |  |   |. |  |   |. |  |
_a__a__a___d__c__a_a___c_
_|_|_d__d|e__a_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_

 |\|\ |\ |\   |
 | |  |\ ||
 | |. |  ||.
_a__a__a___d__c__aa___c___
_|_|_d__d___|___|_
_|_||___|_
_|_||___|_
_|_||___|_
_|_||___|_

 |\|\ |\ |\|\ |\ |\
 | |  |\ | |  |\ |
 | |. |  | |. |  |
_d__h__h___h__f__d___c__f__f___f__d__c___
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_

 |\|\ |\ |\|
 | |  |\ | |
 | |. |  | |.
_d__c__a__a__c___f__e__c___a___
_|_e___|_|__||_
_|_|_|__||_
_|_|_|__||_
_|_|_|__||_
_|_|_|__||_

Then you add in the bass:

 |\|\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\
 | |  |\ |   |  |\ |   |  |\ |
 | |. |  |   |. |  |   |. |  |
_a__a__a___d__c__a_a___c_
_|_|_d__d|e__a_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_c___|_c___|___c_|_|_
_|_|_c__c|_c__c__c_|_
_|_|_|_|_

 |\|\ |\ |\|
 | |  |\ | |
 | |. |  | |.
_a__a__a___d__c__a_a___c___
_|_|_d__d|___|_
_|_|_|___|_
_|_c___|_|___|_
_|_|_c__c__d_|_c_|_
_a___|_|_|___|_

 |\|\ |\ |\|\ |\ |\
 | |  |\ | |  |\ |
 | |. |  | |. |  |
_d__h__h___h__f__d___c__f__f___f__d__c___
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_|_|_
_|_|_a___|_a___|_
_|_|_|_|_
_d___|_d___|_|_|_

 |\|\ |\ |\|
 | |  |\ | |
 | |. |  | |.
_d__c__a__a__c___f__e__c___a___
_|_e___|_|__||_
_|_|_|__||_
a__c_|_|_|__||_
_|_c___|_a__c__c_|__||_
_d___|_|_|_a||_

Then you fill in the other parts as best you can. You leave out any
which are not essential for the harmony and which would be difficult
to play (e.g. 1st chord in bar 2 would strictly speaking be:

_d_
_f_
_f_
_c_
___
___

which is a pain.

You leave out notes which may sound OK when sung, but would sound
odd on the lute, e.g. bar 4 should strictly speaking be:

 |\ |\ |\
 |  |\ |
 |. |  |
_c_
e__e_|_
f__f_|_
_b__c__e_|_
_c__c__c_|_
_|_

but the second chord has an ugly clash of f'# (e2) against g (c4),
and in the 3rd chord the Medius' f'# (e2) is higher than the
Treble's d' (f3). I think it's best omit the Tenor's g (c4), and
preserve the melodic line of the Treble by omitting the Medius' f'#.

Many of the bass notes last for a whole bar, which may sound nice on
a bass viol playing just the Bassus, but would be less effective on
a lute trying to play all the parts. I think it would be a good idea
to re-iterate at least some of those bass notes to keep the
continuity of the bass and a nice balance between the different
voices. Strictly speaking the 1st bar should be:

 |\
 |
 |
_a__a__a
_a__a__a__|_
_b__b__b__|_
_c|_
__|_
__|_

but

 |\
 |
 |
_a__a__a
_a__a__a__|_
_b__b__b__|_
_c_c__|_
__|_
__|_

might sound better.

The converse is true as well. In that same bar it might be nice not
to repeat the notes of the two inner voices, producing:

 |\
 |
 |
_a__a__a
_a_a_ |_
_b__ __b__|_
_c_c__|_
__|_

Bakfark

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Kenneth,

I have had a quick butcher's at the German translation of István
Homolya, _Valentin Bakfark_ (Budapest: Zenemükiadó, 1982), p. 57,
and although I cannot find the exact reference you are after, I
think I might be close to it.

After Bakfark died, some people erected an epitaph at his grave. The
epitaph is in Latin, and Homolya gives the first part, which Jürgen
Gaser, the German translator of Homolya's book, gives in German. My
German is a bit ropey, but I would hazard a rough translation into
English as:

"Noble Valentin Greff, also known as Bakfark, born in Saxony in
Siebenbürgen. He enchanted [the people of] our time, who took him to
be the second Orpheus, with his art and his lute-playing, through
which he opened new insights, and no-one had ever reached such
heights ..."

That's the gist of it, even though it's my crude attempt at a
translation from the German, from the Hungarian, from the Latin.

My guess is that the bit you are after is further on in that
epitaph. Homolya gives a reference to Ottó Gombosi, _Der Lautenist
Valentin Bakfark. Leben und Werke (1507-1576)_ (Budapest: Akademie
Verlag, 1967), p. 25, where I think you will probably find the whole
epitaph. Unfortunately I don't have a copy at home.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

PS Thanks to Chris Wilke for his message on this thread, which I
found extremely funny. :-)






- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:28 PM
Subject: Bakfark


> There is a quote that goes something like:
>
> "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark"
>
> Can someone tell me  1) the source of this quote  2) the
interpretation:  does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and
that his skill couldn't be matched by anyone else?  or does it mean
that no one could match the WAY Bakfark played the lute (his
performance style, for example)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kenneth
>
>

Dalza - Perhaps of interest

[Stewart McCoy]

s no imitation. He just seems to like the sound of
those low courses. This is how the next variation ends:
  _   _   _   _
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |\ |\ |_| |\
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |  |\ |_| |
 | | | | | | | | | | | |   |  |  | | |
__
_|_||_
_|_||_
_f_c_e_f_h_f_e___e_f_h_e_|_f_f__e_c_a__||_
___h_|_||_
_|_||_


An interesting change of heart with regard to where a note should be
played comes in "Reades 8 Paven" on f.29v of Dd.3.18. The scribe has
written an impossible c1 instead of a playable h2. Later he realised
his mistake, and marked c1 with a # to show that a mistake had been
made. One imagines that he intended to change c1 to h2 later on. (We
have Rainer aus dem Spring to thank for discovering that the # in
Matthew Holmes' manuscripts can indicate a mistake rather than an
ornament. See his edition of Holborne's music published by the Lute
Society.) Here is the bar in question:

_ _ _   _
 |\ |\ |_| |\ |\ |_|   |_| |_|_|_|
 |\ |\ |_| |\ |  | |   | | |_|_|_|
 |  |\ | | |  |  | |   | | |_|_|_|
 |. |  | | |  |  | |   | | | | | |
_l__y__h__cl___h_f_
.l_y_a_._|___h_y_h_y___
_.___|_
__#__|_
_|_
_|_

I assume from this that the scribe was probably working from an
exemplar in staff notation, and was intabulating it for the lute as
he went along.

If lute music were notated in staff notation, we would have to
decide ourselves where notes should be played on the fingerboard.
Tablature makes these decisions for us, and by and large I think we
should respect what is in an original source. However, I agree with
you that we shouldn't become "a slave to the tab". It is wrong to
assume that the source is always right, or offers the best way of
playing something, because, after all, there are places where
sources differ one from the other. For example, The "De la tromba"
intabulation in the Jane Pickeringe Lute Book, f.7r starts in 2nd
position (what guitarists call "C II"), moves to 5th position, and
stays there before going on to 7th position:
  _   _ _   _  _
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |_|_|_| |_| |\ |_| |\
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |_|_|_| |_| |\ |_| |\
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |_|_|_| | | |\ |_| |\
 | | | | | | | |   | | | | | | |  | | |\
_f_c_d_f_h___f_h___f___f_h_f_fh_y_l_
___y_|___y_h
_|__




The same passage in the Brogyntyn Lute Book, p.26, starts in 2nd
position, moves to 4th position, and hops back to c1 before going on
to 7th position:
  _   _ _   _  _
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |_|_|_| |_| |\ |_| |\
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |_|_|_| |_| |\ |_| |\
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_|   |_|_|_| | | |\ |_| |\
 | | | | | | | |   | | | | | | |  | | |\
_f_c_d_f_h_e_f_h___f_e_f_h_f_f_c__h_y_l_
_|__
_|__
_|__
_|__
_|__

As it happens, the same passage in the Sampson Lute Book, f.10v, is
the same as Brogyntyn, with the addition of dots for the right hand
index finger. Who can say which of these sources is "right" or
"better"?

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 2:53 AM
Subject: DALZA - Perhaps of interest


> At 10:22 AM +0900 9/17/04, Vance Wood:
> >  However in some situations where there seems to be a more
logical way of
> >playing a particular passage the more difficult fingering is not
just to
> >show off but to take advantage of how the notes play in that
register or,
> >and more importantly, sometimes they are not quite in tune when
played
> >somewhere else.  This is not always the quickest or most logical
way of
> >playing something, but it may be the only way of playing it in
tune.  If you
> >have been following this list for a while you are probably aware
that one of
> >the major discussion to come up around here is the issue of
tuning the Lute.
>
> It is interesting to speculate why a composer/scribe chose a
> particular fingering. Like Vance says, it may be for tuning. I
think
> it is natural for someone to write down the way that works best
for
> himself on his particular lute with the strings he has at that
> particular moment. That may change. An odd fingering could have
> something to do

Vihuela as guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ed, Monica, et al,

Information about different sizes of vihuela may be found in Antonio
Corona's article, "The Viola da Mano and the Vihuela, Evidence and
Suggestions about their Construction", _The Lute_, vol. XXIV (1984,
part 1), pp.3-32. My references below to Bermudo are from this
article.

In his _Declaración de Instrumentos Musicales_ (Ossuna, 1555)
Bermudo draws two lines, each of 23.4 cm, to show the string length
of his ideal vihuela. You add the two together to get 46.8 cm, which
gives you a little vihuela discante in c". It is that measurement
which Peter Forrester used to design and make me a vihuela discante
12 years ago.

Bermudo also mentions a consort of plucked instruments consisting of
two vihuelas (a fourth apart - in g' and in c") and a guitar. I have
experimented a little with this line-up, and I can confirm that it
is extremely effective.

By the way, the tunings on p. 28 of Antonio's article were printed
incorrectly; his corrections appear in _The Lute_, vol. XXVI (1986,
part 1), p. 47.

Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g, c', e',
g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ strung
with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." (translated
from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same as the
tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England more
than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any
connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese instrument
fits in?

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Antonio
Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lutenet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela as guitar


> Yes, I believe this is generally accepted thought on the "usual"
> vihuela.  But, this is not in each instance.
>
> The duets of Valderrabano require vihuelas in unison, a third
(minor)
> apart, a forth apart, and fifth apart.  This gives us many
possibilities of
> pitch,  in where to start the configuration.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ed Martin
>
> At 09:23 AM 9/17/2004 +0100, Monica Hall wrote:
> >Nevertheless, the standard 6-course vihuela, like the lute, seems
to have
> >been tuned in G or A,  whatever that meant in terms of actual
pitch at the
> >time -
> >
> > g   c   f   ad g   or
> >
> > a   d   g   bea
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota  55812
> e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> voice:  (218) 728-1202




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Theorbe/Visee

[Stewart McCoy]

- Original Message -
From: "Taco Walstra" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lutelist lutelist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: theorbe/visee



>
> By the way, I've read a long time ago that a project of the
english lute
> society was to publish this Visee book for solo theorbo. Maybe I
don't
> remember this correct or the project is stopped.
> Taco

Dear Taco,

As far as I know the Lute Society has never had plans to publish an
edition of Robert de Visée's music. However, the French Lute Society
published an edition some years ago, I think of music from the book
in question, but arranged as duets for two theorboes. I have a copy
of it somewhere at home, yet despite a thorough search, I'm afraid I
can't find it. It is possible that this French publication is what
you had in mind.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




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Vihuela/guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stuart,

Yes, I am absolutely sure, because Antonio gives the tuning
c,e,g,c',e',g' in the article I mentioned. I am sure he would have
corrected me, if I had got it wrong. It certainly is an unusual
tuning, and I would like to know more about its use in the 16th
century, assuming there is more to be known.

As I understand it, mediaeval stringed instruments were tuned in
4ths and 5ths, because their temperament favoured these intervals at
the expense of the major 3rd, which was too wide to be nice to
listen to. Early in the 15th century people moved away from
well-tuned 4ths and 5ths in favour of well-tuned major 3rds.
Meantone temperament replaced Pythagorean. This meant that stringed
instruments started to be tuned with the interval of a major 3rd as
well as 4ths and 5ths. As far as I know, 16th-century stringed
instruments - lute, viol, viola da mano, guitar, vihuela, etc. -
typically involved 4ths (and sometimes 5ths) with just one major
3rd. The C major tuning mentioned by Bermudo is the only one I can
think of with more than one major 3rd.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela/guitar


>
>
> >
> > > Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g,
c', e',
> > > g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_
strung
> > > with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_."
(translated
> > > from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same
as the
> > > tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England
more
> > > than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any
> > > connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese
instrument
> > > fits in?
> >
> > Good question!   Hovering at the back of my mind for some time
is the
> > question - is the instrument Bermudo refers to as "guitarra"
really a
> > guitar?  Could it actually be a mandola/mandora?  Or a vandola
which =
> > pops up
> > again in the 18th century?  Bermudo also includes chapters on
the
> > bandurria - a lute type instrument which also pop up again in
the 18th
> > century.
> >
>  Stewart,
>
> Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo?
>
> I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was
researching into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor
transposed) before the 18th century. I remember finding references
(e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to it, but never that tuning
itself.
>
> The usual story  of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an
adaptation of the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier
German instrument).




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Vihuela/guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stuart,

Many thanks for the interesting website about the Portuguese guitar.
I notice that the tuning they give for this instrument does not
involve the interval of a 3rd. Neither did the continental tuning of
the cittern (a, g, d', e').

Best wishes,

Stewart.


> Some fado sites have an account of the origins of the guitarra.
E.g.:
>
> http://www.cidadevirtual.pt/fadocoimbra/ing/iguitar.html
>
> pointing to its English guitar origins  - same overall structure
and tuning (when publications appear in the 1790s) and lots of
‘ingleza’ pieces in the repertoire.
>
> But also to a more ethereal, rhetorical background in an actual or
imagined ancient past. But it’s not the past of vihuelas, or even
guitars. It’s the instrument’s
> citternliness that is emphasised.







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Vihuela vs guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Jon,

If we corrected each other's mistakes in English, we'd be here all
day.

In fact, ironically enough, your "sentence" correcting Antonio's
English is itself incorrect:

1) One should not normally begin a sentence with "But", since "but"
is a word used to co-ordinate two parts of a sentence.

2) What you wrote after "But" is not a sentence. The word "If"
introduces a subordinate clause, but you have not supplied a main
verb later on to make a complete sentence. By putting a full stop
(or "period" in American usage) after "another language)", you have
ended your sentence prematurely. Instead you should have put a
comma.

3) Throughout that passage there is a distinct absence of commas,
which are used to separate subordinate clauses from the rest of the
sentence.

By the way, as far as spelling is concerned, in your other message
sent today you meant "abrasive", not "abasive".

I'm sorry to be somewhat abrasive, but you did say you preferred to
be corrected.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:02 AM
Subject: A tool for adjustments

For those of you who either make lutes, or adjust your own lutes,
I've just
found a good tool for working on the grooves in the nut. I had been
using
the little 4" Swedish craftsman's files, and some on this list have
suggested strings coated with an abasive.

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar


> Antonio,
>
> With Vance I thank you for the description (and the drawings I've
seen
> confirm them).
>
> But if you will forgive me for correcting your English (and I only
do so as
> I prefer to be corrected when I speak in another language). I
don't think
> you mean "polemic" when describing the vihuela. Polemic means
"aggressive"
> or "attacking", and can be used as a noun (as in "a polemic") or
as an
> adjective (as "a polemic speech" - sometimes misused as "a
polemical
> speech"). You might mean "generic", as in a word that refers to a
class of
> things - or you might mean something else (but your meaning is
clear from
> the context).

> Best, Jon




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Vihuela vs guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Rainer,

Philip Sidney is not the only writer to begin sentences with a
conjunction. I have just picked up the first book I could find by
Goethe, and immediately spotted a sentence beginning with "Und"
(_Die Leiden des Jungen Werther_, May 26th): "Und da käme ein
Philister". Next I opened my collected Shakespeare at random, and
found, "But I'd say he had not" (_The Winter's Tale_, Act 2, Scene
1). Many verses in the Bible start with "And it came to pass". The
world is full of sentences beginning with conjunctions, often from
very eminent writers, but that still doesn't make it grammatically
correct.

Only too well aware of the discrepancy between theory and practice,
I confess I had difficulty deciding how best to give the grammatical
rule, while at the same time accepting that the rule is often
broken. After many attempts I came up with "One should not normally
begin a sentence with "But", which seemed the best way round it.

Just for the record, I never begin sentences with "And" or "But". An
editor once changed something I had written to include a sentence
beginning with "And", and published it without telling me what he'd
done. I nearly blew a fuse. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Vihuela vs guitar


>
> Dear Stewart,
>
> >
> > 1) One should not normally begin a sentence with "But", since
"but"
> > is a word used to co-ordinate two parts of a sentence.
>
> Have a look at Sidney's Arcadia :)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rainer aus dem Spring




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Vihuela vs guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Eugene,

Many thanks for your bit o' fun.

Although it is true that an introductory passage may be separated
from what follows by a comma, it would be incorrect to use a comma
after "passage", as you suggest for a sentence in my last e-mail,
since "Throughout that passage" is not an introductory passage, but
an integral part of what follows. If I had written the words in a
different order, for example, "There is a distinct absence of commas
throughout that passage", you would, I think, be less inclined to
precede "throughout that passage" with a comma, since those words
would clearly belong to the main part of the sentence. It was
necessary to order the words as I did, beginning my sentence with
"Throughout that passage", because the following subordinate clause
("which are used ...") refers back to "comma", not to "passage". In
other words, I don't want another comma. :-)

You mention Strunk and White. There are many such authorities
regarding the English language, and they almost invariably disagree
with each other somewhere along the line. The English language
remains wonderfully flexible, however much grammarians try to
straight-jacket the way we speak and write.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



- Original Message -
From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Vihuela vs guitar



> >3) Throughout that passage there is a distinct absence of commas,
> >which are used to separate subordinate clauses from the rest of
the
> >sentence.
>
> Commas are also used to separate introductory phrases.  As
"Throughout that
> passage" is an introductory phrase preceding the main clause of
the
> sentence, it should also be separated by a comma.
>
>
> >I'm sorry to be somewhat abrasive, but you did say you preferred
to
> >be corrected.
>
>
> I am not remotely abrasive, only having a bit o' fun.  I think
most of us
> are better editors than writers.  I know I am.  (I'm also a better
editor
> than I am a musician.)
>
> When in doubt, I consult:
>
> Strunk, W. Jr. & E.B. White. 1979. The Elements of Style, 3rd ed.
Macmillan
> Publishing Co., Inc., New York.
>
> In a gently ribbing spirit,
> Eugene




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Vihuela vs guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Eugene,

Many thanks for another bit o' fun. I'm pleased we won't be having
pistols at dawn over a comma. :-)

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Vihuela vs guitar


> At 05:16 PM 9/22/2004, Stewart McCoy wrote:
> >Although it is true that an introductory passage may be separated
> >from what follows by a comma, it would be incorrect to use a
comma
> >after "passage", as you suggest for a sentence in my last e-mail,
> >since "Throughout that passage" is not an introductory passage,
but
> >an integral part of what follows. If I had written the words in a
> >different order, for example, "There is a distinct absence of
commas
> >throughout that passage", you would, I think, be less inclined to
> >precede "throughout that passage" with a comma, since those words
> >would clearly belong to the main part of the sentence. It was
> >necessary to order the words as I did, beginning my sentence with
> >"Throughout that passage", because the following subordinate
clause
> >("which are used ...") refers back to "comma", not to "passage".
In
> >other words, I don't want another comma. :-)
>
>
> However, "Throughout this passage" is a prepositional phrase that
is
> modifying the noun "commas" (which in turn is the object of a
prepositional
> phrase modifying "absence").  As such, its ordinary place would be
> following "commas."  In relocating it to the front (and I agree
with your
> decision to do so), it is functioning as an introductory phrase.
As it is
> a brief introductory phrase, I think most grammarians would agree
that
> comma use is optional.
>
>
>
> >You mention Strunk and White. There are many such authorities
> >regarding the English language, and they almost invariably
disagree
> >with each other somewhere along the line. The English language
> >remains wonderfully flexible, however much grammarians try to
> >straight-jacket the way we speak and write.
>
>
> I will concede that there are almost as many grammar authorities
of the
> English language as there are people who write in English, and
many
> published sources do disagree to varying degrees.  I have at least
six or
> seven texts on my shelf that, in whole or part, address the
written
> elements of style; they range from very general (e.g., the
previously cited
> Strunk & White) to very specific (e.g., Pechenik. J.A. 1997. A
short guide
> to writing about biology, 3rd ed. Longman, New York.).  Strunk &
White
> certainly is my favorite for its clarity and concision.  Whatever
the case,
> I think you write very well, Stewart (certainly better than I do),
so who
> cares?
>
> But let's get back to the business of plucking, eh?  (Note my
atypical use
> of a conjunction to open this sentence with dramatic effect.)
>
> E




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Fluted ribs

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

Most of us who write to this list are interested in the lute. We
want to learn more about it, and about similar instruments played
long ago. Our knowledge is sometimes patchy, but by sharing ideas
and discussing things together, we can help each other find out
more. That's the whole purpose of the list, and there's nowt wrong
with that.

You are right to point out the difficulty of nomenclature. An
instrument may have more than one name, e.g. the modern violin is
sometimes called a fiddle. Two different instruments may share the
same name, e.g. a mediaeval fiddle is not the same as a modern one.
Identifying surviving instruments is not always easy, but we do what
we can with the evidence we have. It doesn't matter if you are not
interested in such things, because you can always press the delete
key. However, calling a charango a vihuela does not add anything
useful. It's just plain daft.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




- Original Message -
From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: fluted ribs


> this "is or isn't vihuela" question appears to be the
> thread that wouldn't die.  ask about fluted ribs and
> up it comes ...
>
> just to let you know ... from now on, at every given
> opportunity, in all manner of documentation that's
> available to me, i'm going to refer to my charango as
> a vihuela; same for the canary island timple i'm
> hoping to get and the - who knows how many - ukuleles
> i'll probably buy before i die.
>
> from here on in, they're all vihuelas.
>
> my hope is that some bright spark in the future will
> find this "documentation" - or better yet, a fragment
> of this documentation - and set about perpetuating
> this ... (let me look this up to be absolutely sure)
> .. polemic ... forever.
>
> for all i know, informed discussion of this type
> occurs all the time in any discipline.  but (roll over
> e.b. white) i honestly don't see how anyone - "expert"
> or otherwise - can exclude the possibility, the
> probability even, that at one time in history many
> different instruments carried the same name.  simply
> as a historical construct (applied to countless
> numbers of luthiers in the past, both artiginale and
> professional) i can't see how anyone can definitively
> catagorize the vihuela based on one or two or three,
> lone examples.
>
> extremely intelligent, terribly esoteric, but what is
> "it" - precisely - that are you trying to define?
>
> vexatious litigant (not) - bill




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Early Music CD review

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Rainer,

I hadn't read Tess Knighton's review, but I have now. There's
something about this sort of pompous and wordy musicological
writing, which I find intensely irritating.

I've found the repeated use of "Vallon" for Vallet, but I can't find
"Nocolas" for Nicolas. I suppose it is possible that "Nocolas" was
corrected during the print run, and you got one of the first batch
of copies printed.

You are right about the spelling of "Ouse Vader in Hemelyk". I'm
afraid I don't have a copy of Paul O'Dette's CD, so I can't confirm
whether the mistake was Ms Knighton's, or it was already wrong on
the CD. However, I've looked at my Vallet facsimile. "Onse" could be
misread as "Ouse", especially if you have no knowledge of Dutch (or
"unser" for "our" in German). The letters "u" and "n" can easily be
confused. However, missing two letters out of "Hemelryck" looks
pretty careless to me; "ryck" is presumably the same as the German
word "Reich" for kingdom or empire. One might have expected a
musicologist of Ms Knighton's stature to have been a bit more
careful. Her mistakes are on a par with, "Our Father, which art in
Heaven, Harold be Thy name ..."

I have been wondering why you should be upset. If Ms Knighton's
mistakes were just slips of the old pen, I don't suppose you would
have batted an eyelid. After all, errare humanum est, and all that.
I suspect your reaction reflects something else, i.e. the fact that,
in spite of all the research over the past two or three decades, the
most eminent musicologists still haven't a clue when it comes to
lute music. They may regurgitate stuff they find in books on their
shelves, but they don't speak from experience, and they don't really
know what on earth they are talking about. To that extent I share
your feelings.

By the way, the _Early Music_ review also includes mention of a CD
of music by Luis Milán played by Moreno and Quinteiro, who have
turned Milan's solos into duets. I reviewed this CD some time ago
for _Early Music Review_, and was extremely enthusiastic about it.

As for writing to the journal, I'm not sure it would do much good.
The editor is Tess Knighton.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




- Original Message -
From: "adS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 10:30 PM
Subject: Early Music CD review


> Dear lute netters,
>
> has anybody out there read the CD review in Early Music, may 2004,
page 339-341
> by a certain Tess Knighton?
>
> She writes
>
> "The results can be innovative and exciting, rewarding and
attractive, all of
> which is fine as long as the listener is informed about what is
going on..."
>
> Well said, Theresa.
>
> Unfortunately our good Theresa is not too well informed and has no
idea of what
> is going on.
>
> In the second paragraph of this splendid review she manages
(twice!) to call
> Vallet  - yes, indeed - Nocolas Vallet. Well done.
>
> For whatever reasons she later decides to call him Nicolas Vallon
[sic!] and
> sticks to the new name six times.
> She admits that she doesn't know much about Vallet - erm, Vallon -
and says
>
> "...for me he was a name in a textbook until I heard this CD..."
>
> I wonder which textbooks Theresa keeps on her shelves...
>
> Unfortunately she had to face an even tougher task - a Dutch
title.
> Understandably she failed once again and wrote
>
> "Ouse Vader in Hemelyk"
>
>
> Perhaps Stewart McCoy or Chris Goodwin should write a letter to
the editors of
> Early Music. It's a shame...
>
>
> Quite upset,
>
> Rainer adS
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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Vihuela vs guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman,

There may be some truth in what you say, but it doesn't explain why
the guitar flourished, and the lute didn't. Both instruments are a
bit on the quiet side for large concert halls.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar


> > And my question included the possibilty
> > that the preservation of the "lute third" location might have
doomed the
> > lute for the more modern play (like 19th C.).
> No, the sociology of music (i.e. concert hall) was responsible for
lute's
> demise.

> RT




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Songs by A.Schlick?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arto,

There is a modern edition published by Ugrino Verlag, Hamburg, in
1957. Goodness knows if it is still in print. It has a few facsimile
pages.

I also have a facsimile edition published by the Zentralantiquariat
der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik_, Leipzig, 1977. They may have
changed their name by now. Again, I doubt whether this facsimile is
still in print.

I feel sure I've seen the songs somewhere else, e.g. in a Lute
Society newsletter, but I'm afraid I can't remember. Hopefully
someone else can.

-o-O-o-

Arnolt Schlick's _Tabulaturen Etlicher Lobgesang_ was published in
1512, the year after Sebastian Virdung's _Musica getutscht_. Schlick
was very rude about Virdung, saying that Virdung had written an
impossible chord for the lute: L.c.4.kk, which looks like this in
French tablature:

_h_
_a_
_b_
___
___
_d_

OK, it's unplayable as it stands, but one wonders what had rattled
Schlick's cage for him to be so unpleasant towards Virdung.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: Songs by A.Schlick?


>
> Dear lutenists,
>
> as far as I know, there are some intabulated lute songs by
> Arnolt Schlick. Perhaps 1520's? Does any of you happen to
> know anything of these? Are they printed or ms.? Are there
> any published re-prints or at least modern editions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Arto




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Songs by A.Schlick?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Gernot,

Unless I have misunderstood what is going on, Schlick has
misunderstood what Virdung was trying to do. Considering the
animosity between the two, Schlick's misunderstanding may have been
deliberate. I think Virdung's aim is merely to show how to turn
staff notation into German tablature. He takes a piece consisting of
four voices, and intabulates each voice separately, each with its
own rhythm sign. It may be that he didn't intend it all to be played
on one lute, even though that is how Schlick saw it. You've asked
for a bar either side of the chord Schlick refers to, so here it all
is:

[It is essential to view with a mono-spaced font, otherwise the
vertical alignment will go all to pot.]

 |  |\| ||  ||
 |  | | ||  ||
 |. | | ||  |   .|
 p  9 | kk   kk |   ll   |
  | ||
  | | | ||
. |  .  | | _|
d |  4  | | n|
  | ||
 |\ |  |\ | |\ |\ |\ |\ | | ||
 |  |  |  | |  |  |\ |  | | ||
 |  |  |  | |  |. |  |  | | ||
c  3  | c  o  d  o  | 5 d|
  | ||
 |\ |\ |  | ||\  |\ | |\ |\ |\ | |
 |  |  |  | ||   |  | |  |\ |\ | |
 |  |  |  | ||   |  | |  |  |  | |
 l  f  1  | Lc  | c  m  g  m |

You can see how Virdung keeps the four voices separate. It would
appear that his aim is simply to turn the notes of each voice into
German tablature. There is no apparent attempt to make it playable
on one lute, falling neatly under the hand, and with just one set of
rhythm signs.

This is how it would look in French tablature, arranged for one
lute:

 |\ |\  |\  |\  |
 |  |\  |   |\  |
 |  |   |   |   |
_df___h_h___a+l__
_b__|_a__db_d_|_b__|_
b_a_|_b_b_|_b___i__|_
|_|_d_c_d__|_
_d__c__a|_||_
|_d___||_

It is, of course, totally unplayable on a single lute, not only
because of the chord at the start of the 2nd bar above, but also
because it is impossible to play the chord at the start of the
following bar, with two notes sounding simultaneously at the 1st
course, not to mention the stretch from the 1st to the 10th fret. An
observant reader will spot more problems than the ones I mention.
It's all a bit of a dog's dinner.

There was an article in a Festschrift many years ago (at least
before 1984 or 1985, when I last read the article) about Schlick and
Virdung, which may well throw more light on all this. Unfortunately
I don't have the reference to hand.

Best wishes,

Stewart.









- Original Message -
From: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Songs by A.Schlick?


> Dear Stewart,
>
> this chord is almost unplayable (I can just manage it, but I
probably
> have quite large hands), but it sounds weirdish, to say the least.
It
> could of course be fingered with an f on the 4th course making it
much
> easier. Might I ask you to provide one bar before and after the
event
> as well, possibly in french tab?
>
> Thank you
> g
>
> > was very rude about Virdung, saying that Virdung had written an
> > impossible chord for the lute: L.c.4.kk, which looks like this
in
> > French tablature:
> >
> > _h_
> > _a_
> > _b_
> > ___
> > ___
> > _d_
> >
> > OK, it's unplayable as it stands, but one wonders what had
rattled
> > Schlick's cage for him to be so unpleasant towards Virdung.
>




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Haiku

[Stewart McCoy]

Bill,

Haikus always have
Five, seven, five syllables,
And three lines of verse.

Your drummer was wrong.
Your verse has ten syllables,
Which ain't seventeen.

That's mean to drummers,
Suggesting that they can't count.
They can, and they do. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

PS When playing music for dancing, which of these instruments should
you give to the best musician in the group?

a) Archlute
b) Bandora
c) Charango
d) Drum

Scroll right down for the correct answer.

- Original Message -
From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:08 PM
Subject: haiku


> don't know why drummers get it in the neck all the
> time but saw this in a haiku related thread on the
> mandolin site:
>
> My drummer helped me
> Count the syllables
>

















Answer: d) Drum

Banging out simple rhythms may seem straightforward enough, but it
is a mistake to give the drum to the least able musician in the
group. The drum holds everything together, and, when played well,
gives the music oomph, which is what the dancers need most of all.
Fancy, not very audible plucking is less important.




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Haiku

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman,

I think you are right
To say that quiet plucking
Can help a small choir.

Lutes are comparatively quiet, yet that is an advantage, because
they don't get in the way of the singers in the same way as louder
instruments would. Even a very quiet lute can help stabilise tuning
and rhythm in a vocal ensemble.

My previous e-mail was specificlly about dance music, rather than
singing, where a drum may be used to considerable effect. After all,
some very lively traditional dancing in Africa is to the
accompaniemnt of drums alone. From the early dance point of view, I
think it is significant that Arbeau gives a considerable amount of
information about drumming at the start of his dance treatise,
_Orchesographie_ (Paris, 1589), before he starts giving us dance
steps and music.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Haiku


> > Answer: d) Drum
> >
> > Banging out simple rhythms may seem straightforward enough, but
it
> > is a mistake to give the drum to the least able musician in the
> > group. The drum holds everything together, and, when played
well,
> > gives the music oomph, which is what the dancers need most of
all.
> > Fancy, not very audible plucking is less important.
> Actually inaudible plucking has been used for the same purpose for
> centuries. Particularly in medieval polychoral music: even in
those cases
> when instruments were supposed to have been absent the harp was
used to keep
> them singers in line when they were separated into groups.
> RT




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Songs by A.Schlick?

[Stewart McCoy]

- Original Message -
From: "Rainer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: Songs by A.Schlick?

> I think Virdung uses a chord that requires two different notes to
be played on
> the same course. This IS possible in German tablature :)
>
> Rainer adS

Dear Rainer,

Possible to write,
But impossible to play.
Virdung got it wrong. :-)

All the best,

Stewart.









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Hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stephan,

I very much like your idea of using a barré for b1 in the E major
chord, so that it is ready for the following A minor chord. If you
have your 5th course strung in octaves, you want need to worry about
not playing c2, because the missing note will be heard as the upper
octave of your 5th course. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?


> Am 30 Sep 2004 um 12:10 hat Ed Durbrow geschrieben:
>
> > >By the way, the left-hand fingerings in _Varietie_ do not
involve
> > >fancy barrés with fingers other than the 1st finger. For
example,
> > >_Varietie_ gives
> > >
> > >__1b_2d___
> > >__3c_4f___
> > >__2c_3f___
> > >__
> > >__4e___and___1c___
> > >__
> >
> > D'oh!, there's another chord I dislike! (the first one)
>
> Dear Edand Stewart,
>
> so do I! Unfortunately I cannot cope with an inner barre of
> the middle finger because of an old injury from WW II :-). I
> found that this E major chord usually falls more comfortable
> under my fingers when I play b1 with a straight index finger
> like in a full barre, fretting only with the lower part of the
> finger. This is particularly useful in combination with an A
> minor chord because the finger is ready for or comes from the
> full barre in the second position. Omitting c2 here is
> something I occasionally do, but I don't speak about it... :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?

[Stewart McCoy]

- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: Hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?

Dear Ed,

Thanks for taking the discussion further. Threads about left-hand
fingering may appear boring and unnecessarily academic to some
s*bscr*b*rs, but this discussion, I believe, is of fundamental
importance to anyone who plays the lute. My comments are scattered
amongst yours. (I hope you don't mind, but I'll stick to my spelling
of barré, rather than bar, because of possible confusion with the
other meaning of bar, i.e. measure in American usage.)

> I didn't say I couldn't play it. I just dislike
> it! It's the context often. Take this example
> from Van der Hove's Une jeune fillette:
>
>   |\ |\   |\ |\
>   |\ |\   |\ |\
>   |  |\   |  |\
>   |  ||  |
> d_b__a__a_b_a_
> _a_|_b__b_d__
> _b_|_b___
> _a_|_
> ___|_d___
> _d_|_
>
> I've experimented with placing the bar at the end
> of the first measure and lifting the knuckle for
> the next chord but it's quite hard on my finger.
> Placing the bar at the beginning of the second
> bar is difficult to get smooth because of the
> change in position from an upright index to a bar
> on the adjacent strings. One thing should be
> mentioned, and that is the alternative of leaving
> out the Eb on the second string if you have an
> octave on the fifth: weighing smoothness against
> fullness.

The whole point of what I am trying to say is that there is no
barré. The 1st finger may sometimes have to cover two courses
instead of one, but it is not laid flat. It comes down on the
strings exactly as it does when you play one course.

When you play an instrument like the modern guitar, which has single
courses, you hold down each string in the normal way. If you then
pick up a lute, which has double courses, you don't start holding
down every course with a barré, just because there are two strings
involved instead of one. Your fingers work the same way with double
courses as they do with single courses. You do it without even
batting an eyelid.

In the same way, you don't have to use a barré on two courses, just
because there happens to be four strings involved. There is no
difference at all between the following two chords, at least as far
as the angle of the fingers is concerned, as they come down on the
fingerboard:

_a__
__a_1b__
_1b_1b__
__a_2c__
_2c___and___3d__
_3d_

In passages like the one you quote from Une Jeune Fillette, there is
always the possibility of using the 2nd finger for the last note of
the first bar, but I don't think I would opt for that here. Using
the 1st finger for b3, b1, and then b2 and b3, gives it a lot to do,
but that's OK, as long as the 1st finger works at the same angle
throughout, whether it is holding down one course or two.

If you use a barré for that E flat chord, I would agree that it
makes life easier to leave out the E flat on the 2nd course, but
that is only if you have been trying to use a barré. If you do what
I suggest, and hold down b2 and b3 as if they were a single course,
it is as easy to play those two courses, as it is to play just one.

This is the fingering I gave for the passage towards the end of
Mille Regretz:

> >   |\
> >   |
> >   |
> >__aa___a___
> >__a__1b_|_1b__1b_|_
> >|_1b__1b_|_
> >_2c__2c_||_
> >_3d_|_3d__3d_|_
> >||_

You were not too happy with it.

> Well, different strokes for different folks. The
> exact same measure is near the end of the Phalese
> version of Mille Regretz. I would finger that one:
>
>|\
>|
>|
> __aa___a___
> __a__2b_|_2b___b_|_
> |_1b___b_|_
> _3c__3c_||_
> _4d_|__d___d_|_
> ||_
>
> not knowing what comes after, anyway. That gives
> me a little more control and the possibility to
> put a slight vibrato on it if I want.
>
> The main point for me and Eb is that these old
> fingers aren't as flexible as they used to be.
> Some people absolutely cannot get any curve in
> that first knuckle and some people can make an
> 'L' shape.

Your alternative fingering is the very thing I am trying to avoid.
My fingers are getting old too, which is one reason why I would
avoid unnecessarily tortuous fingerings. Let's imagine that the same
passage is transposed down a 4th. Which of these two fingerings
would you prefer?

  |\
  |
  |
___
__a_|

Hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

I'm afraid I accidentally sent my reply to Ed's e-mail direct to him
yesterday, instead of via the List, so what he and I sent to the
List today will not make much sense to everyone else. Sorry about
that. Here is the missing message:

Dear Ed,

That E flat chord

_a_
_b_
_b_
_c_
_d_
___

has been discussed before. I know some people have difficulty with
it, but it is one of my favourite chords. It is not difficult,
unless the ends of your fingers are particularly thin.

Robert Dowland's _Varietie_ (London, 1610) is very clear on how to
finger it:

__a_
_1b_
_1b_
_2c_
_3d_


You must play both notes at the first fret with your first finger.
You cannot play a barré, because that would interfere with the 1st
string. Instead you aim between the 2nd and 3rd courses, with your
1st finger curved normally, as it would be if you were holding down
just one pair of strings. It doesn't matter, if, at first, you don't
manage to hold down all four strings. As long as you can hold down
the higher string of the 3rd course and the lower string of the 2nd
course, while damping the other two strings, that is enough. With
time your finger will find a way of holding down all four strings.
Turning your fingers slightly so that they are more parallel with
the strings (like violinists stop strings) may help, although I
don't find that necessary myself.

I have been looking recently at Narvaez's setting of Mille Regretz,
and there are a couple of places where the ability to play E flat
chords properly is very useful. One obvious place is towards the end
of the piece:

 |\
 |
 |
aa__a
_a__b__|_b__b__|_
___|_b__b__|_
_c__c__|___|_
d__|_d__d__|_
___|___|_

where the fingering should be

  |\
  |
  |
__aa___a___
__a__1b_|_1b__1b_|_
|_1b__1b_|_
_2c__2c_||_
_3d_|_3d__3d_|_
||_

Less obvious is this passage:

 |\ |\|\   |\|\ |\
 |  |\||\|  |\
 |  | || |  |
f___f_
_d__b_a_|_d|_d_|_b|_b_
_f__|_d|___b___|_d|___
|e_|_e_|__|___
_c__d___|_f|_f_d_c_|_a|_a_
|__|___|__|___

It might be possible to hold b2 and d3 at the start of bar 4, but I
prefer to let it go for the sake of a good f1 at the start of bar 5.
This means that, apart from the first and last chord of this
extract, I use that E flat chord fingering, i.e. no barré, but with
the 1st finger covering the 2nd and 3rd courses at the same fret.

This is particularly useful linking the E flat chord at the end of
bar 3 to the C minor chord at the start of bar 4. My 1st finger
stays put between the 2nd and 3rd courses throughout, and doesn't
need to move. No doubt players who cannot manage my E flat chord
fingering, would move their 1st finger sideways here, from the 3rd
course to the 2nd.

Here is the same passage with all my fingering put in. See how I
keep my 1st finger in exactly the same place, including the join
from bar 4 to bar 5:

 |\  |\ |\ |\   |\ |\
 |   |\ |  |\   |  |\
 |   |  |  ||  |
__4f___f_
_d__1b_a_|_1d|_1d_1_|__1b|_b_
_f__1|_1d|_1__1b|_13d|___
_|2e_|_2e___||___
_c__3d___|_3f|_3f_3d_2c_|___a|_a_
_|___|__||___

By the way, the left-hand fingerings in _Varietie_ do not involve
fancy barrés with fingers other than the 1st finger. For example,
_Varietie_ gives

__1b_2d___
__3c_4f___
__2c_3f___
__
__4e___and___1c___
__

not

__1b_2d___
__2c_4f___
__2c_4f___
__
__4e___and___1c___
__

As far as that last chord is concerned, if you get your 3rd and 4th
fingers down first, it is possible to reach back for the other two.
If you try doing it the other way round, i.e. put down the 1st and
2nd fingers first, you'll never reach the 5th fret with the other
two fingers.

Success with the left hand is largely determined by knowing the
correct order in which fingers should hold down the strings of any
particular chord.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.





- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:08 AM
Subject: hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?


> >  Schlick
> >was very rude about Virdung, saying that Virdung had written an
> >impossible chord for the lute: L.c.4.kk, which looks like this in
> >French tablature:
> >
> >_h_
> >_a_
> >_b_
> >___
> >___
> >_d_
>
> I can just play that on my A lute, but I doubt I'd be able to
'land'
> on it in any musical context. Shame on him. He could have eas

Vihuela vs guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Sterling,

It is understandable that you should find the renaissance lute
difficult to play, if you hold it on your shoulder. Pascale Boquet
refers to this in her lute tutor, _Approche du Luth Renaissance_
(1987), p. 30, as "très mauvaise position".

I think you are right that the lute in the 18th century was
perceived as a bit recherché and difficult to play. Thomas Mace,
writing in 1675, says so, but he argues against this, making a
virtue out of the large number of strings on the baroque instrument:

"That the Lute was a Hard or very Difficult Instrument to Play well
upon, is confessed; And the Reasons why, shall here be given: But
that it is Now Easie, and very Familiar, is as Certainly True; And
the Reasons shall likewise be given.

The First and Chief Reason that it was Hard in former Times, was,
Because they had to their Lutes but Few Strings; viz. to some 10,
some 12, and some 14 Strings, which in the beginning of my Time were
almost altogether in Use ...

But soon after, they began to adde more Strings unto Their Lutes, so
that we had Lutes of 16, 18, and 20 Strings; which they finding to
be so Great a Convenience, stayed not long till they added more, to
the number of 24, where we now rest satisfied ...

You must know, that he who undertakes the Lute, will meet with
things becoming the Lute, viz. Composures of Parts, with much
variety of Trebles, Basses, and Inner Parts.

All which upon the old Lutes, by reason of the Fewness of Strings,
was (really) extreme Hard to perform ...

Whereas Now, (on the contrary) as Really as it was Then Hard, so
Truly is it become Easie, and very Familiarly Pleasant to the
Learner, by reason of the Increase of Strings."

Had Mace been alive today, he would no doubt have concurred with
your view about wheelbarrows. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "sterling price" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: Vihuela vs guitar


> I think a big factor in the 18th century decline of
> the lute is its -implied- difficulty. Admit it-lute
> players like to promote the idea that the lute is
> difficult and only playable by the elite. This
> attitude is still strong today especially with the
> baroque lute. The fact is it is no more difficult than
> any other instrument. Having 13 courses of strings
> does not make it difficult-if that were true the
> piano, harp, organ and many other instruments would be
> humanly impossible to play(how many strings does a
> piano have?) I tend to agree with EG Baron's statement
> that the lute in the 1720s had reached a high state of
> refinement and that a child could play it well. I
> cringe when I hear people today talk about the
> impossibility of playing the baroque lute because it
> has 24 strings. I say it is a logical result of
> centuries of refinement. If the baroque lute is ever
> to prosper and shed its image of rediculous
> impossibility people have got to stop thinking in that
> way. Now, I have a certain profficiency on the baroque
> lute and find the music flowing easily from me at
> times, but I have trouble playing the earlier 6-7
> course music which never seems to flow from my
> fingers. I think of it like carrying a heavy load:
> with a baroque lute I have a wheel barrow, with the
> ren lute I am carrying the load on my shoulders.
> Sterling Price




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5c vs many more

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ed,

If you have seven courses spread over an 8-course lute, the strings
would be slightly further apart than they would be with eight
courses. Does this help explain why you have difficulty with that E
flat chord? In other words, does the difficulty arise from wide
string spacing rather than how wide the end of your fingers are?
Just a thought.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: 5c vs many more

> Yes. I had my 8 course lute bridge respaced for 7 courses and it
> became less difficult to play by a factor of 7 to 8.
> --
> Ed Durbrow




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Old religious paintings.

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Howard and Rainer,

The plural doesn't exist. Jesus was unique. It's like trying to find
the masculine form of the French adjective, "enceinte", which means
pregnant. "Examples" is plural, but "Jesus" is singular.

The correct phraseology should be, "These are actually pretty mild
examples of a precocious-looking Jesus."

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: Old religious paintings.


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:02 PM
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Old religious paintings.
> >
> > Herbert Ward wrote
> >
> > > These do not look like baby faces to me.  Especially around
> > the eyes.
> > > I guess it (the adult face) was a symbol of authority which
> > the folks
> > > back then needed to feel secure, like they needed kings and an
> > > infallible omnipotent Church.
> >
> > These are actually pretty mild examples of precocious-looking
> > Jesuses (Jesi?).
>
> I think  it's u-declination. Therefore the plural is Jesus with a
long
> "u".
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rainer aus dem Spring




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Attaingnant and Siena

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

I have been looking at the first Prelude in Attaingnant's 1529
collection of solo lute music. The piece also appears in the Siena
Lute Book, ff. 17r-17v. Does anyone know of any other concordance?

There are a few insignificant differences between the two sources
like notes on the wrong line, where the two sources can be used to
correct each other's mistakes. One can use one's common sense with
regard to parallel fifths to correct a couple of dodgy notes. Apart
from these little things there are some major differences, where
Attaingnant apparently misses out great chunks of music. One of
these chunks contains a sudden weird, and apparently unnecessary
modulation to D major, and one wonders if it really should be there.
Did Attaingnant deliberately leave out bars which seemed to him
corrupt, or was it the Siena scribe, who accidentally added these
extra bars, and they were never in Attaingnant's exemplar? Is the
Siena version entirely plausible? It's all rather puzzling really.

It is a jolly nice piece, not too hard to play, and sounds
particularly lovely on my bass lute. If anyone can tell me more
about this piece, I would be very grateful.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




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Lute at nr. 1

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

Funny you should mention lute music hitting the charts. I was in
Venice last Sunday, and spotted the following in the Lonely Planet
Venice City Guide, ISBN 1-74104-198-8, page 32:

Top Five CDs
Le Quattro Stagioni (The Four Seasons), Antonio Vivaldi
Adagio in G Minor, Tomaso Albinoni
Orfeo, Claudio Monteverdi
Il Liuto a Venezia, Massimo Lonardi (16th century Venetian music for
lute)
Piatti Roventi, Pitura Freska

Good for Massimo Lonardi. I have a copy of his CD at home. It
includes music by/from Capirola, Spinacino, Dalza, Da Milano,
Borrono, Da Crema, Abondante, Bianchini, Gorzanis, Galilei, and
Barbetta. It's a nice, varied anthology, generally played very well,
although for my taste there is too much rubato and rolling of
chords.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.



- Original Message -
From: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:02 PM
Subject: lute at nr. 1


> The latest cd of altus Sytse Buwalda, accompanied on lute,
theorbo, romantic
> guitar and fortepiano, is currently nr. 1 in the Dutch Classical
Top 50. Who
> said the lute is not a popular instrument and has but a small
audience?
>
> David - enjoying a rare moment of popularity as I was the plucker
on this cd
> ;-)




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Rubato and rolling chords

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

1) Rubato

You live in Italy, so you will know that the Italian word "rubato"
means "robbed" or "stolen". It's used in a musical context to mean
robbing time, or taking time, in other words playing around with the
rhythm (slowing down/ speeding up) with the aim of playing
expressively. Musicians who play alone - guitarists, harpists,
pianists, lutenists, etc. - have a tendency to be quite free with
their interpretation of rhythm, because there is no-one else to keep
in time with. The trouble is, although one wouldn't want a
mechanical performance forever in strict time, an excessive use of
rubato is irritating, and ultimately not at all expressive. It can
become a self-defeating affectation.

Luis Milan advised players to show a certain amount of freedom when
performing his music - play the slow notes really slow, and the fast
notes really fast - exaggerate the rhythm to reflect the sudden
changes of mood within a piece. Milan's fantasies suit this kind of
approach. They would be boring, if played in strict time. I have a
recording of Milan's music played by Massimo Lonardi (Agora AG 195).
Lonardi's interpretation is rhythmically quite free, and in this
context I think it works really well. It's an excellent CD.

Although rubato may be effective in a dreamy solo fantasy, it is
quite inappropriate in dance music. The whole essence of dance music
is regular rhythm. In his CD "Il liuto a Venezia (Nalesso Records
N.R. 020) Lonardi's performance of Abondante's Gagliarda Venetiana
is all over the place, as far as the rhythm is concerned. The
regular six beats per bar rhythm, which characterises the galliard,
is completely lost. He may make a lovely sound, but his playing of
this piece is simply not in time.

2) Rolling chords

If you have a chord, i.e. two or more notes to be played together,
you can either play them all at exactly the same time, or you can
roll them so that each note is played fractionally later than the
one lower in pitch. Instead of playing the notes together like this:

_a_
_c_
_d_
___
_a_
___

You could roll the chord, so that each note is plucked separately,
although so quickly the chord still sounds as a single entity:

a_
___c__
__d___
__
_a
__

Instead of "Bang", it sounds "Brrrang".

Chords consisting of more than four notes must be rolled, because
you haven't got enough right-hand fingers to pluck them all
simultaneously. These two chords, for example, must be rolled:

_a___a___
_a___c___
_c___d___
_c___c___
_c___a___
_a___

Rolling a chord makes the plucking last longer, and it can be a
useful expressive device. It can draw attention to an important
chord. The trouble is, it feels nice to the player. Some beginners
may find it hard to do at first, but once you can do it without
thinking, there is a danger that you do it all the time, without
thinking. As with rubato, it can start to get on a listener's
nerves, and is self-defeating.

At the last meeting of the Lute Society in London there was a master
class given by Julian Bream. Playing in time and not rolling chords
were the two things he insisted on with all those who played for
him. He made the same two points in his previous master class too.
"I may be old-fashioned," he said, "but I like music to be played in
time." I couldn't agree more.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



- Original Message -
From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: Lute at nr. 1


> dear stewart -
>
> "...too much rubato and rolling of
> chords."
>
> sounds interesting.  what's it mean?
>
> sincerely - bill




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Rubato and rolling chords

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear James,

I agree. Rolling chords does not necessarily jeopardise rhythm, but
it doesn't usually help much. If you are playing in strict time,
there is an exact moment when a chord should sound. If you roll a
chord, some of the notes will not sound at that exact point, and so
will, by definition, be out of time. I am not suggesting that one
should never roll a chord. After all, as I pointed out, there are
countless examples of 5-, 6-, or even 7-note chords, which have to
be rolled. Gerle and Kapsberger are known to have avoided using the
4th finger of the right hand, so for them all 4-note chords would
have to be rolled in some way too. My contention is that many
lutenists tend to roll chords excessively, without thinking whether
or not it is really appropriate.

I mentioned the master class given by Julian Bream at the last
meeting of the Lute Society. One of the lutenists playing for Bream
was Matthew Wadsworth, who played a very difficult fantasy by Robert
Johnson. Wadsworth rolled many chords, but Bream would have none of
it. Wadsworth was clearly not happy, but played on. Eventually he
found some justification for rolling chords ...

"... but this is a six-note chord," said Wadsworth, "How can I play
that without rolling it?"

"We'll let you have that one," said Bream, with a broad beaming
smile, but it is the only one he allowed.

What makes for a very interesting exercise, is if you take a piece
you know well, and play it first with lots of rolled chords, and
then again with no rolled chords at all. Compare the two versions.
The chances are that you will prefer the unrolled version. It's
neater, cleaner, tidier; the rhythm is more precise, and the
different polyphonic voices are easier to pick out. A good piece for
such an experiment would be the Siena/ Attaingnant Prelude which is
Piece of the Month on Martin Shepherd's website. The music is
essentially in three voices, apart from the last chord:

_c_
_a_
_a_
_b_
_c_
___

It has to be rolled, because it consists of five notes. Rolling it
at the end of the piece makes for a very special effect, all the
more special if it is the only chord in the entire piece which is
rolled.

In answering Bill's query, I was making two separate points, one
about rubato, and the other about rolled chords. I was not thinking
of the one being the result of the other. If you listened to the
performance of that galliard I mentioned by Abondante, you would
understand what I mean about playing out of time. Rolling chords is
nothing to do with it.

I sympathise with Oscar Gighlia's unhappiness at being told how to
play by his duet partner. One's performance is very much a personal
thing, and there are times when we might resent others interfering.
In a successful duet partnership there has to be a certain amount of
give and take. I don't know the circumstances, of course, but it is
possible that Gighlia's playing might have benefited from listening
to what his partner had to say.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Rubato and rolling chords

> Hello to all,
>
>   The rolling of chords does not necessarily jeopardize rhythm,
even in
> dance pieces.  I was thinking about this tonight while playing  my
restaurant gig,
> rolling chord after chord.  :)  If you have a  strong sense of the
"pulse" of
> a dance piece, you can do almost anything and  make it work.  I do
agree too
> much "rolling" can be annoying.  I know  jazz musicians try to
always have a
> feel for where "one" (the downbeat of a  measure) is.  I just
don't want the
> rolling of chords to be  blamed for some musicians' lack of
rhythm. :)  I'm
> surprised to hear about Julian Bream's remarks, perhaps he's just
trying to get
> students back to basics.  I remember a conversation with Oscar
Gighlia many
> years ago, he said things were not going so well with his duet
partner; and
> that  "he (Gighlia) didn't want to be told whether he could roll a
chord or  not".
>
> Sincerely,
>
> James




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Rubato and rolling chords

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Martin,

This is the $64,000 question, isn't it. Rolling a chord means that
each of the notes sounds at a slightly different time. Only one note
of a rolled chord can be exactly in time, so which note should it
be? The first, the last, or one of the middle notes?

The Lachrimae version I usually play is the one from the Pickeringe
Lute Book (f. 16v), which starts with a 4-note chord. It is easy
enough to establish a nice, steady rhythm:

 |\   |\ |\|\|\
 ||\ |\|\|
 ||  |\| |
_a___d_
_a___d_b_|_a_a___|_
_b___a___|_b__d__|_
__c__|___|_
_|___|_
_a___|_a_|_

Margaret Board's version (f. 11v), on the other hand, is quite
different. Not only does it start with a full 6-note chord, but it
also has a couple of ornaments on b3:

   |\   |\ |\  |\ |\
   ||\ |\  |\ |
   ||  |\  |  |
___ax.d_
___a___d_.b_|__a__a___|_
_x.b___a__._|_.b__d___|_
___c___ c___|_.___|_
___c|_|_
___a|__a__|_

I think the first chord should probably be played like this:

___a
_a__
_a___b_a_b__
___c
___c
_a__

That's a total of nine separate notes. It is impossible to know from
that great splurgle where the beat is. It is just a big flourish to
attract attention, and get the piece off to a grand start. In the
Pickeringe version the tempo is set with the 2nd event (c4); in the
Board version we can have no clear idea of the tempo until the 3rd
event (d2+a3). In practice I imagine a player would start counting
from the last b3 of the first chord.

A pavan is a dance, and so should be played in strict (foot-tapping)
time. Of course one takes a breath between sections, but I think it
is worth noting that apart from a 6-note chord in bar 5, which seems
to balance the opening flourish, there are no more chords in the
Board setting, which need to be rolled. Apart from those two chords
at the beginning, there are no chords with more than four notes.

Where the beat falls in a rolled chord is, I think, determined by
the nature of the music, i.e. whether accompanying (a singer and/or
other instruments), playing in a group of lutes (duets, trios, etc)
or playing a lute solo.

1) Accompanying a singer or other instrument

Unless it is some kind of opening flourish, which is like giving the
singer his note - e.g. the first chord of Dowland's "Come again" -
the first note sounded (the lowest in pitch) must be on the beat.
The bass is the most important of the lowest parts, and that's what
we must hear first. If a chord is rolled, the notes above the bass
should sound after the beat.

2) Playing with other lutes

Don't roll. One's instinct is to roll a chord so that the melody
note on the highest string is sounded on the beat. That means that
the bass comes in early. If you do that in a lute ensemble, the
other players will hear you come in early, adjust their timing to
fit in with you, and the music gets faster and faster. By and large,
rolled chords in a lute ensemble are a mess.

3) Playing solos

Here there is likely to be more flexibility with regard to time. A
few rolled chords can be effective, which is why we sometimes see 5-
and 6-note chords filling out a 3- or 4-voice texture. So which note
comes on the beat? I would answer, the first and the last. The first
note (the lowest) should sound in time after the previous event. The
rolling takes time, of course, but it is extra time - a pause, for
want of a word. The event following the rolled chord is timed from
the last note (the highest). Let me clarify this with an example
from the Pickeringe version of Lachrimae (last stave of f. 16v):

 |\ |\|\ |\  |\
 |\ |\|\ |\  |\
 |  |\|. |\  |\
 |  | |  |\  |
__a
_f__e_c_e_f___e_|_a__d_b_a___|_
d___|_cd_c_a_|_
_e__|_c__|_
_c__|_c__|_
|_a__|_

The G major chord has to start sounding after the last e2 of the
first bar. We hear a6 played in time after that e2. While the G
major chord is rolled, Time Stands Still (as Dowland might say).
When a1 has been sounded, the clock starts ticking again, and the
next event (d2) is played in time, counting from the previous a1.
The effect will be like this:

 |\ |\ |\ |\  |\
 |\ |\ |\ |\  |\
 |  |\ |. |\  |\
 |  |pause |  |\  |
___a
_f__e_c_e_f___e_|_a___d_b_a___|_
d___|___c___d_c_a_|_
_e__|c|_
_c__|__c__|_
|_a___|_

The rolling of the G major chord may look squiffy, but I've notated
the six notes in the

Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Antonio,

I have been thinking a lot about what you said, and I think you are
absolutely right. As you say, the word "compas" means a regular
beat. Milan doesn't say, "Ignore all the rhythm signs, and play
every note in whatever rhythm takes your fancy." His music may lend
itself to a certain freedom of expression, but not rhythmic anarchy.
Milan wants to contrast slow, stately chords, with exciting fast
running passages, so he uses a change of speed to exaggerate the
contrast. If the music is played too freely, and you lose the pulse,
the music becomes arhythmic, making it impossible to detect a
difference between the speeds of the different sections.

The difference between a fast movement and a slow movement in a
symphony is not the presence or absence of very fast notes. It's the
difference in pulse. Slow movements may have some extremely fast
notes, but if the pulse is slow, the music will sound slow. If I
play four notes every second and stress the first of every four, the
music will sound slower than if I play the same four notes at the
same speed, but stress the first and third of every four. The slow
speed has one beat per second; the fast speed has two beats per
second, yet they both have the same number of notes per second. In
other words, fast notes alone do not cause the music to sound
faster. It's the change of pulse which makes the difference.

Your e-mail has prompted me to have a fresh look at Milan's Fantasy
11, the one which begins:

 |\|   |\ |\|\
 | |   |\ |\|
 | |   |  |\|
___a__
b_|_a|_a_|d_b_a___|___
_d|d_|___|__d_b_a_|___
_c|__|_c_||_c_
_a|__|___||___
__|__|___|_a__|___

The fast notes in the fourth bar sound rather pedestrian if they are
played in strict time with what has gone before, but they provide a
sudden, exciting flurry of notes if they are played evenly, but a
bit quicker. Presumably that is the sort of thing Milan had in mind.
The tempo would revert back to the original speed at bar 5.

I assume the "compas" is shown by the barline, so the word is also
used to mean bar (or measure in American English). For example, on
folio 5v Milan talks about 20 bars of music - "En estos veynte
compasses de musica".

On sig. Lv there is a rubric saying how the piece should be played.
Typically he talks about the mode and the speed. As far as the speed
is concerned, he uses the word "apriesa" for fast, and "espacio" for
slow: "tañer ni muy apriesa ni muy a espacio" = play not very fast
and not very slow. My Spanish is virtually non-existent, but am I
right in thinking that these are not the usual words for fast and
slow? Does "apriesa" mean hurried, pressing on, and "espacio" spaced
out? If so, they are the sort of words one would use to encourage a
student to play expressively, rather than the prosaic "fast" and
"slow" for a more mechanical tempo.

My other thought concerns the mode. Why should the player need to
know the mode, if all the notes are there in front of him? Is it
because there is a mood associated with each mode? Knowing the mode
would then give the player information on the mood he should try to
create - happy, sad, introspective, aggressive, etc.

I'd be very interested to know what you think.

All the best,

Stewart.




- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Rubato and rolling chords


> Dear Stewart,
>
> You are, of course, right in mentioning that Milan
> states that in his "fantasias de consonancias y
> redobles" chords should be played slowly while scales
> should be fast, but I don't think this case meets
> completely the idea of rubato. The point is that, even
> though Milan mentions his slow chords and fast scales
> in several cases, he also mentions that, in order to
> accomplish this you should make a "mutacion de
> compas". What does a mutation of "compas", i.e. change
> of "compas" mean?. Elsewhere Milan defines "compas" as
> a "steady raising and lowering of the hand ", that is,
> a steady beat. The implication of Milan´s instructions
> is, in my opinion, not that you can afford to play the
> whole thing freely, going faster or slower according
> to context, but that you have to actually change the
> beat in which you are playing and - possibly - play in
> time to a slow or fast beat. I'd like to know your
> thoughts on this interpretation.
>
> With best regards
> Antonio
>
>
> > Luis Milan advised players to show a certain amount
> > of freedom when
> > performing his music - play the slow notes really
> > slow, and the fast
> > notes really fast - exaggerate the rhythm to reflect
> > the sudden
> > changes of mood within a piece. Milan's fantasies
> > suit this kind of
> > approach. They would be boring, if played in strict
> > time. I have 

Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Stewart McCoy]

___|_a__
|__|_|

One of the arguments against rolling chords is that it can obscure
the part-writing. In this case, however, that's exactly what we
want: rolling the chord will help obscure the implied parallel
octaves.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan


> Dear Stewart,
>
> I´m glad you agree with me about the interpretation of
> Milan's slow chords and fast scales; perhaps I should
> also point out that Milan does not specify this kind
> of treatment for all of his fantasias -just in case
> someone might be tempted to make a broad
> generalization- but it is also appropriate for his
> tientos and some of his songs (romances). Fantasia 11,
> which you mention, is one of my favourites and your
> description of how to play the first bars is precisely
> how I envisage it, with another slight twist.

> Besides the change of beat, there is something else
> that my contribute to give character to this passage:
> when Milan speaks of fast scales he advises using the
> "dedillo" technique which, as most on the list will
> know, consists of using only the index finger of the
> right hand to pluck, moving upwards and downwards. The
> insistence placed on the index by Milan has prompted
> me to consider other possible implications of this
> technique, and -by coincidence with a recent thread- I
> believe Milan might have also used it to advantage in
> rolling chords. In this particular example I suspect
> that Milan may have played first the bass on the
> fourth course with the thumb, followed by the first
> course and finishing with the second, these two
> adjacent courses played with the index. This "rolling"
> downwards enhances the rhapsodic feeling of the
> beginning of the piece but, more importantly, provides
> a better voice leading by stressing the open second
> course. If we assume a vihuela in A, which would fit
> correct notes of the mode, the sequence would
> therefore be: D,F,E,F,E instead of D,F,E,F,A which is
> the way it would normally sound with the chord either
> rolled upwards or played plaque. Elsewhere in Milan's
> music you´ll find numerous cases where the music
> benefits from this approach, and it may well pay to
> make a more detailed study of Milan´s possible use of
> the index finger.

> With best wishes,
> Antonio




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Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

Antonio sent me this message the other day, but forgot to c.c. it to
the Lute List. He has asked me to pass it on.

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan


> Dear Stewart,
>
> Your analysis is most convincing, from a purely
> theoretical position. However, I would like to raise
> another point which. I believe, is of special
> relevance in the case of Milan, namely: how much
> should we evaluate or analyse his music from a strict
> theoretical perspective? You have shown that Milan is
> quite capable of writing "correctly" part music, and
> also succeded in showing that he was not overly
> concerned with following the rules. My suggestion
> about the particular rolling of the chord was not
> prompted - in the first instance - from a desire to
> make clear a somewhat obscure polyphony (in the case
> under discussion it could be argued that the open
> first course could have been either the first note of
> the following phrase or a fill-in; I suspect it was
> the latter, considering the unique idiomatic nature of
> these fantasias), but from curiosity as to how much a
> more active role of the index could affect the music
> itself. One of the examples you quote provides another
> good example of how effective this technique could be:
>
>
>
> >  |\ |\
> >  |\ |
> >  |   roll   |   roll
> > _a
> > _b__a___|_d|_a_ _|
> > ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__
> > _c__|_a|_c___|
> > _a__|__|_|_a__
> > |__|_|
> >
>
> In the second bar you have another clear case for
> plucking both courses with the index, thereby
> stressing the open third course. I would do the same
> in the third bar, emphasizing the inner voice which
> has a much more active role. Thus, your melody would
> sound clearly as: F-E-D-C-B-C-D / E-C#-D. You´ll
> notice that the upper notes are quite devoid of a
> particular context regarding what came before and what
> follows and may therefore considered as fill-ins:
>
> >  |\ |\
> >  |\ |
> >  |   roll   |   roll
> > __
> > _b__a___|__|_a_ _|
> > ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__
> > |__|_|
> > |__|_|
> > |__|_|
> >
>
> In any case, I think it's an interesting possibility
> that merits studying in more detail. Milán's music is
> so filled with cases as these that I suspect the music
> could maybe tell us something about the way in which
> Milan actually played.
>
> All the best,
> Antonio
>
>
> P.S. I don´t think Milan was too much concerned about
> parallel fifths and octaves: I see his approach as
> more pragmatic and concerned with effect, something
> which he achieves admirably.




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Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David, Antonio, and Everyone,

My preference is to go along with David's suspension, but tablature
is ambiguous, so both interpretations are possible. There are two
factors which cause problems:

1) Tablature doesn't tell us how long each note lasts. So in this
passage,

 |\|\ |
 |\|  |
 | |  |
_
_d|_a_||_
_a__b__d__|c__d___||_
_a|_c_||_
__|___a___||_
__|___||_

The first d3 could as well be a minim or a semibreve. In other words
the inner part could be

 |\|\ |
 |\|  |
 | |  |
_
__|_a_||_
_a__b__d__|c__d___||_
__|___||_
__|___||_
__|___||_

or

 |\|   |\ |
 |\|   |  |
 | |   |  |
_
__|___||_
_a__b__d__|(d)_c__d___||_
__|___||_
__|___||_
__|___||_


2) Apart from a few instances (e.g. a3 + e4), tablature does not
show unisons. This means that the passage above could consist of
three voices right to the end, or three voices only as far as the
first chord. An extreme example of tablature failing to show unisons
would be this cadence, where three voices are notated by one letter:

  |\  |
  |   |
  |   |

__a_|||_
__d__c__|_d__||_
__c_|||_
|||_
|||_

All three voices end with d3.

About a year ago I took part in the Lute Society's competition,
which was to reconstruct the missing voice of William Byrd's "Look
and Bow Down", which survives in an incomplete form in one of Edward
Paston's lute books. The top voice part is missing, and the lowest
parts (originally for a second voice and four viols) survive as an
intabulation for one lute.

The problem was not composing the missing part. That may have its
difficulties, but it's nothing compared with the job of
disentangling the notes of the lowest voices, which may overlap each
other in pitch, which occasionally sound as unisons, the length of
which cannot easily be deduced, and which might even be omitted for
technical reasons (e.g. you can't get two notes sounding
simultaneously on the same string). Once you have sorted out what
those lowest voices are doing, and you have a score, you can then
start thinking about composing the missing voice, completing triads,
using imitation, and narrowing one's choice of note by avoiding
parallel fifths and octaves. Paston's tablature may be a right old
dog's dinner, but for this song it's all we've got.

At least Byrd's consort song has a fixed number of voices. Luis
Milan's tablature has an extra level of complication, because he
adds extra notes to fill out the texture (adding vertical
considerations to horizontal ones), he may have a melodic line which
runs through the texture so that one voice merges into another, and
pseudo-voices creep in briefly to give an impression of polyphony.
It is very much an instrumental style rather than a vocal one, and
it is extremely effective on the lute and vihuela. I regard Luis
Milan (vihuela) and Francesco da Milano (lute and viola da mano) as
the experts in the art of suggestion.

It is possible that to some readers identifying voice-leading may
seem a waste of time - an academic exercise for its own sake - yet
one cannot perform a piece meaningfully, if thought is not given to
details of voice-leading.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan


> Dear David,
>
> >
> >Given the preceding nearly identical passage:
> > _aa
> > |_d___b_|_a_ _|
> > a__b|_a__b__d___|__c__|_d__
> > __c_|_a_|_c___|
> > |___|_|_a__
> > |___|_|
> >
> >I have been interpreting the "d" in the second
> > measure of both passages as
> >the beginning of a suspension.
>
>
> In my view, the "d"2 in the second measure is part of
> the melody which comes from the first course "a" in
> the preceding bar, thus:
>
>  _a_
>  |_d___b_|_a_ _|
>  |___|_|_d__
>  |___|_|
>  |___|_|
>  |___|_|
>
> playing in counterpoint to:
>
>  ___
>  |___|___ _|
>  a__b|_a__b__d___|(d)___c__|_d__
>  __c_|___|_|
>  |___|_|
>  |___|_|
>
> where the d3 (I suppose this is the one you meant)is
> indeed the biginning of a suspension. The "a"4 in th

Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman,

The first two bars certainly do seem to involve parallel octaves (a1
+ c4 followed by d2 + a4), but only because the previous bar was not
included in the extract. Seen in context, the apparent parallels
disappear.

As has been said before, the implied polyphony in Luis Milan's music
is open to more than one interpretation. I've used Antonio's dodge
of highlighting a part in capital letters to show voice-leading. In
this case the capital letters represent what I think is one melodic
line weaving its way through the texture. I don't think it's
possible to allocate every note to a strict SATB format.

 |   |\|   |\|\|\
 |   | |   | |\|
 |   | |   | | |
_a___a___f_d_a___
_b_|_a___|_d_|_D___|___B_A___|_A_B_|_
_d_|_b___|_f_|_d___|___D_|_|_
___|___c_|_f_|_e_a_|_|_|_
___|_|___|_|_|_|_
___|_|___|_|_|_|_

 |\|\|\  |\|
 |\| |\  | |
 | | |   | |
_a___a___
___A_B___|_|_|_d_b_|_a___|___
___D_|_B___|___A_B___|_A_B_D___|___C_|_D_
_|___C_|___C_|_a___|_c___|___
_a___|_c_d_|_|_|_|_a_
_|_|_|_|_|___

If my interpretation is correct, the harmony (where there seemed to
be parallel octaves) would be

__a___
__d___
__a___
__c___a___
__d___
__

which is perfectly OK.

By the way, this particular passage in Fantasia 11 is almost a
re-run of Luis Milan's first Fantasia, which begins like this:

 |   |\|   |\   |
 |   | |   ||
 |   | |   ||
_a___a_f_d__a___c
_b_|_a___|_d_|_d___|_a__c_|_d__|_
_d_|_b___|_f_|_|d_||_
___|___c_|_f_|_e_a_|_c|_a__|_
___|_|___|_|__||_
___|_|___|_|__||_

I used to wonder whether Antony Holborne was referring to this
passage in his Galliard "Muy Linda", especially since "Muy Linda"
are two Spanish words (meaning very pretty), and they sound a bit
like "Milan". Both pieces are in the same key, and start in exactly
the same way. However, perhaps I should have brought Fantasia 11
into the equation too. Here is the opening of Holborne's Galliard:

 |\ |\|\ |\
 |  |\|  |\
 |  | |  |
_a__aab__a
_b__a_d__a_|b__d_ad_|_b__a
_d__bb_|_d___b__|_d__b
___c__d|___dc___|___c_
___||_
___||_

Milan's three-note motif occurs at least three times. (I've marked
each entry with * , and highlighted the motif in capital letters):

 |\ |\|\ |\
 |  |\|  |\
 |  | |  |
_a_*Aab__a
_b__a_D__A_|b__d_ad_|_b__a
*D__Bb_|_d___b__|*D__B
___C__d|___dc___|___C_
___||_
___||_

Holborne's continuation of the melody (a1, d2, a2, b2, d2, a2) is
certainly reminiscent of the simlar passage in Milan's Fantasia 11.

The trouble with this sort of speculation, is that it is very
difficult to prove one way or the other. Holborne might have had
Milan in mind, or it could just be a case of great minds think
alike. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



















- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:34 PM
Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan


> Something is fishy here. Measures 1 and 2 seem to make a parallel
octave.
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>
>
> > From: Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Given the preceding nearly identical passage:
> >> _aa
> >> |_d___b_|_a_ _|
> >> a__b|_a__b__d___|__c__|_d__
> >> __c_|_a_|_c___|
> >> |___|_|_a__
> >> |___|_|
> >>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

MS grouped by key?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Diann,

There is a fair amount of organisation in the five extant lute books
of Edward Paston. For example, Lbl Add. 29246 begins with two-part
pieces, then three-part, then four-part, etc.

As far as key is concerned, Lbl Add. 29247 has a lot of pieces in
sharp keys, whereas at least some pieces in Lbl Add. 31992 are in
flat keys. I think it's worth checking out.

I studied the Paston Lute Books for a thesis in the 1980s. One third
of it was published in _Early Music_, another third in _The Lute_,
and the rest was never published. In the unpublished part I wrote a
bit about how pieces in Paston's lute books sometimes seemed to have
been grouped according to key, although there were lots of
exceptions. I speculated on why anyone should want to do this. It
makes sense for 17th-century music, where you may have lots of
different tunings, either involving the strings over the
fingerboard, and/or involving only the diapasons. However, Paston
was writing for a common or garden 6-course renaissance lute in
standard vieil ton tuning. One hypothesis I put forward tentatively
was that, although Paston wouldn't re-tune the strings of his lute
for pieces in different keys, he might want to re-tune his frets. If
so, it would make sense to have all the pieces together where a
particular fretting arrangement was required.

You mentioned the Cherbury Lute Book. No doubt you know about Curtis
Price's article about this manuscript, published a long time ago in
the Lute Society _Journal_. If not, I can look up the reference for
you.

The classic manuscript where pieces are arranged according to key is
the one compiled by Vincenzo Galilei, where suites of pieces are
arranged in every conceivable key (in an equally tempered context)
similar to Bach's 48. Galilei's manuscript is published in facsimile
by SPES. I think Gorzanis did something similar in a printed book.
Again, I could look up the reference, if you can't find it. I think
he gives pieces in each mode one after the other in _Fronimo_ (the
book, not the computer software). That's worth looking at too.

You might also consider looking at Hans Newsidler's printed
collections of music, (not to mention Hans Gerle and Hans
Judenkunig). They inadvertedly arranged pieces according to key, not
because of the key as such, or the fretting, or anything fancy like
that. Their books were printed in German tablature with students in
mind. Students would not only have to learn how to play the lute;
they would also need to learn how to read the music. It would be
confusing for a beginner to be faced with all the characters of
German tablature at once, so these three Hans all introduce the
different characters gradually. That means that the first few pieces
will tend to be in the same key, and the next few pieces in another,
more or less.

That's all that springs to mind. It's gone ten o'clock. If I don't
go to the pub now, I'll be too late for a pint.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 8:56 PM
Subject: MS grouped by key?


>
>Hello fellow Lute Netters,
>I've been working a bit with how the contents of lute
manuscripts were
>organized in the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, and
I was
>wondering if anyone might know of lute manuscripts besides the
Siena Lute
>Book and Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lute Book in which pieces
are clearly
>grouped by key or mode?  I'd also be interested in knowing if
there are any
>prints of lute music besides Besard's Thesaurus Harmonicus
(1603) that
>follow this type of organization.
>Thanks very much for your help.
>
>Sincerely,
>   Diann Flanagan




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

MS grouped by key?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Jon,

In a world of different pitch standards, different temperaments,
different nominal pitches, modes, tones, hexachords, and all the
other paraphernalia of early music, the definition of key is likely
to get out of hand. I'll try to keep things simple.

As you know, it was normal procedure in the baroque period to group
pieces according to key, so you'd have a suite consisting of say an
allemande, courante, sarabande, and gigue, all in the same key, with
the same key signature, and every piece ending with the same chord.

When you play your harp in an ensemble, you say you group pieces
according to key, i.e. you'll have three or four pieces in C major,
and then maybe have another group of pieces in another key. That's
all we mean by grouping pieces according to key. I guess you group
pieces like that for two reasons:

1) Purely practical - you don't want to have to keep stopping
between pieces to re-tune your strings;

2) Euphony - it's more satisfying on the ear, if you stay in the
same tonality, at least for a while. If you keep jumping from one
key to another, it can be unsettling, especially if the keys are
totally unrelated.

In 16th-century sources there are lots of examples of pieces grouped
according to key. I mentioned Galilei's manuscript, but that is a
bit exceptional. I suppose the commonest thing was to have a pavan
and galliard both in the same key, often with both pieces sharing
similar melodic material. You may find a suite of branles all more
or less in the same key, so they could be played one after the
other.

The trouble with tablature is that it doesn't specify an exact
pitch. We need to be able to talk about notes, chords, and keys, so
we have to find a way of identifying them. There will always be
exceptions, but it is usually assumed that renaissance lute music is
for a lute in g', i.e. a lute with the first string tuned to g'.
This means that a G major chord will look like this:

_a_
_a_
_c_
_c_
_c_
_a_

Everything else is calculated from that g' first string, so the note
f'# will be
___
_e_
___
___
___
___

i.e. one semitone down from g'.

Rainer aus dem Spring has pointed out that Elias Mertel grouped
pieces according to key in his _Hortus Musicalis Novus_ (Strasbourg,
1615). Pieces in G major are grouped together, so Prelude No. 162
begins

 |\   |\
 |\   |\
 |\   |
_aa___
___a__a_|_
_cc_|_
___c__c_|_
_cc_|_
___e__a_|_

No. 163 begins

 |   |\ |\  |\
 |   |\ |\  |\
 |   |  |\  |
_a___a_c___
_a_|_a_c_|_
_c_|_c_d_|_
_c_|_c__a|_
_c_|__e_c__a_|_
_a_|__.__|__

No. 164 begins

 |   |\
 |   |\
 |   |\
_a___a_e_h_e___
_a_|_a_a_f_.___._|_
_c_|_c___c_._|_
_c_|___c_|_
_c_|_|_
_a_|_|_

The next seven preludes are likewise in G major.

One interesting thing I did notice with Mertel's collection is that
his idea of what constitutes a key must have been slightly different
from ours. Pieces in a minor key usually end with a major chord
(tierce de picardie), so there is an interplay between major and
minor there. However, there is more to it than that. The first 31
preludes are all in the key of C, but the C major pieces are all
mixed up with the C minor ones. Nos 1, 11, 16, 18, 20, 30, and 31
are in C major, while all the other 24 are in C minor. I don't know
why.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rainer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: MS grouped by key?


> A question for you all. I don't understand the "grouping by key".
I
> understand that in a mean temperament there is a matter of key,
although
> with equal temperament it shouldn't matter. Since the lute
manuscripts are
> written in tabulature the absolute key should be a matter of
tuning the
> instrument (within its range). Perhaps being a beginner I've
missed some
> aspects of tabulature, but it would seem that the absolute pitch
(within
> limits) should be irrelevant unless playing ensemble or in a mean
> temperament (and there the choice of temperament should be the
defining
> factor).
>
> Admittedly my harp ensemble does tend to sequence our pieces by
key, as the
> harp is basically diatonic and some members without levers have to
retune to
> a new key. And the harp is normally tuned in equal temperament.
How does the
> "key" apply to the lute when the text is in tab? Unless the
instrument
> ensemble is tuned to different keys. But would a manuscript
arrangement for
> a piece then be consistant?
>
> I'm sure there is a good answer, and I'm sure Stewart will be
quite clear on
> it.
>
> Best, Jon




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Catgut

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Jon,

Gut for lute strings comes from sheep. The word "cattle" used to
include sheep as well as cows. "Catgut" is short for "cattle gut",
i.e. gut from sheep. Catgut has as much to do with cats as those
cat's-eye things in the middle of the road.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bill kilpatrick"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: eagle feathers


> Bill,
>
> Is there any information on whether cat-gut should be taken from
domestic
> cats or feral ones. I have a large gray cat sitting on my shoulder
with
> claws prepared for action depending on the answer. I've told her
that it
> really wasn't from cats, but she doesn't believe me. Plectra she
isn't
> worried about as her claws aren't shaped for that, but those gut
strings,
> they concern her.
>




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Spelk planes

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Garry,

Did you come to any conclusions about the possibility of luthiers
using Spelk-like planes to run off lute ribs quickly and cheaply?
The thread seemed to get diverted onto something else.

Many years ago I read somewhere that, if you bought a new guitar (I
forget where), they'd give you a free mandoline to go with it. This
would (I guess) be some time in the early part of the 20th century.
I'm afraid I can't remember any more details. It strikes me, that if
shops could afford to give away a free mandoline with every guitar,
either the guitars were overpriced to accommodate the free offer, or
mandolines were very cheap. If they were cheap, they must have been
made in huge quantities, efficiently, quickly, and at very little
cost.

I understand very little about the making of instruments, so I would
be interested to know if any makers on the List have any further
thoughts about your Spelk plane hypothesis. It seemed a neat idea.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


> And in that vein, is it possible that renaissance and baroque
luthiers could
> have used the predecessor of the Spelk plane (it produces Spelk.
Spelk is a
> thin strip of wood used by the Shakers to make baskets and chair
seats) to
> produce the ribs for lutes? A Spelk plane would be able to cut
strips of
> wood that are both wide enough and thick enough to be used.  I
would think
> that it would have been quicker and more cost effective to produce
the rough
> ribs using this method than by cutting up a thin board into
strips.

> Thoughts? Opinions?

> Garry




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Delphin gut

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Lex,

They were certainly in the same field of music, what with Narvaez
keeping an eye on his cows (Guardame las vacas), and Mouton with his
sheep (mouton). Best music ewe heifer herd. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:09 PM
Subject: Delphin gut


> Has anyone noticed that both Luis de Narvaez and Charles Mouton
were
> active in the same watersports? They are both pictured (or was it
a
> plucker from Greece?) on the back of a large fish, presumably a
delfin.
> cheers, L.




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Delphin gut 2

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Lex,

Sorry to give you such a flippant reply to what was a serious
question. Let's start again.

For those unfamiliar with the tale of Arion and the Dolphin, the
following site gives an easy-to-read account:

http://www.thanasis.com/arion.htm

Arion is a well-known figure from classical mythology, so it is not
surprising that he should be found decorating the title pages of
several books. I did a Google search for

Arion + Dolphin + book + "title page"

and found no end of books, where Arion can be found, e.g.

http://www.bloomsbury-book-auct.com/html/505/

You could argue that, with so many books referring to Arion, it is
not surprising that Narvaez's and Mouton's title pages should do
likewise. After all, Arion was a musician, and a player of a
stringed instrument to boot.

Having looked closely at Narvaez and Mouton's title pages, I have to
confess that there are some similarities:

1) both Arions have capes;
2) there are sailing ships in the sea behind Arion;
3) there are mountains on the horizon, in particular one mountain to
the right of each picture;

I notice that the engraver has signed his name to the bottom left of
the Mouton picture, although it is too faint for me to read. Do we
know anything about him? Did he use a similar picture for other
unrelated books?

It is certainly an interesting thought that Mouton's title page may
have been influenced by Narvaez's, but with Arion and Orpheus being
such important mythological characters, frequently referred to in
musical contexts in the 16th and 17th centuries, I think one would
need a little bit more evidence to make a positive link between the
two title pages.

Stemmatically speaking, if there is a connection, there could be a
direct link (Mouton had a copy of Narvaez's book), or both title
pages were copied independently from a common source (Narvaez and
Mouton each owned a copy of the same book published before 1538).

Those are my initial thoughts, but I would be very interested to
hear what others may have to say on your intriguing observation.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Delphin gut


> More precisely, is the animal on the frontpage of Mouton's Pices
de Luth
> a descendant of Narvaez' sea horse. In other words could we
consider it
> as plagiarism? Had the artist who engraved the picture in Mouton
seen
> the Seis Libros ? Or is there a picture that both engravers could
have
> taken as an example, independant from each other? best wishes, Lex
>
> Stewart McCoy wrote:
>
> >Dear Lex,
> >
> >They were certainly in the same field of music, what with Narvaez
> >keeping an eye on his cows (Guardame las vacas), and Mouton with
his
> >sheep (mouton). Best music ewe heifer herd. :-)
> >
> >Best wishes,
> >
> >Stewart McCoy.
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:09 PM
> >Subject: Delphin gut
> >
Has anyone noticed that both Luis de Narvaez and Charles Mouton
were active in the same watersports? They are both pictured (or was
it
a plucker from Greece?) on the back of a large fish, presumably a
delfin.

cheers, L.




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Gary Southwell, contact info

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Jason,

I gave Gary a ring just now, and he says that he has been in touch
with you, since you sent your message to the Lute List. I mention
this here, to save other lute-listers following up your query. I'm
pleased everything has worked out OK for you.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Jason Yoshida" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 5:31 AM
Subject: Gary Southwell, contact info


> This is not exactly lute related but I was hoping someone might
know the =
> answer here.
> Would anyone know how to get a hold of Gary Southwell.
> I am interested in his 19th century guitars.
> I tried the email off of his web site www.southwellguitars.com
> and it seems he is probably not using it.
> Thanks,
> Jason Yoshida




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Delphin gut 3

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Lex,

My guess, from a cursory Google glance, would be that there are many
pictures gracing the pages of various books, showing Arion playing a
stringed instrument. The question really is whether there is any
connection between Mouton and Narvaez.

It is certainly true that the posture of the two players is similar,
but that is somewhat inevitable, because they are both plucking a
stringed instrument. Significant differences include:

1) Narvaez's Arion is more modest than Mouton's, since he appears to
have clothes on the upper part of his body. Mouton's has a nipple
peeping over his lute.

2) The dolphins are facing opposite directions.

3) The tail ends are different: Narvaez's is whale-like; Mouton's
has a frilly edge.

4) The curve of the tail is different: Narvaez's goes up-down-up,
whereas Mouton's goes down-up. (Having a long tail though, as you
point out, could be seen as a similarity.)

5) Mouton's dolphin has a mouth like a platypus'; Narvaez's is more
snub-nosed.

6) Mouton has a couple of cherubs flying around with a banner;
Narvaez doesn't.

I think the few similarities are not enough to link the two
pictures.

Nowadays we take exotic animals for granted. We have photographs. We
can even travel easily by plane to distant lands. In earlier times
there was a fascination with unfamiliar animals, and they turn up,
often strangely depicted, for example in Durer's woodcuts. Their
presence in the Capirola Lute Book was part of the plan to preserve
the music. I think it is possible, especially in cases where the
animals are not well drawn, that the illustrator hasn't actually
seen the animals first hand. It is likely that he has had to rely on
other people's drawings, and the creatures become distorted, just as
messages can get distorted with Chinese whispers.

Mouton's engraver was Etienne Baudet (c. 1636-1711). Had he seen a
real live dolphin, before engraving a picture of one? If not, he
would have had to have copied someone else's picture, to know what
they looked like. Even if he had seen a real one, he may still have
found it convenient to copy someone else's drawing, rather than rely
on his memory. The rarer the animal, the more likely it is for an
illustrator to copy someone else's work. My guess is that there
could be a great chain of dolphins, one copied from the other. If
you assembled all the dolphins ever drawn in 16th- and 17th-century
books, you might be able to show how one developed from another, and
that chain may include Mouton's and Narvaez's dolphins. However,
with the information we have, I am not convinced that Baudet sought
inspiration directly from Narvaez's book.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: Delphin gut 2


> Dear Stewart,
> Thanks for your enlightning answer.
> I could indeed have formulated the question in a more serious way.
For
> us (the rest of the world) it is hard to be funny (deliberately)
in
> English. I am willing to learn more about those fishy mammals. (I
am
> doing research for an article in 'Lute & Whale')
>
> 1) are there more pictures around with people playing lute or
vihuela
> (or guitar), seated on the back of a delfin?
> 2) I think I see similarities in the posture and anatomy of both
> players, e.g. right arm and leg.
> 3) the head and tail of the delfins are similar. (The tail could
easily
> belong to the monster of Loch Ness)
>
> any comments?
> Best wishes, Lex




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Tuning variation

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bill,

You are right to say that there are many different tunings for the
guitar, but stringing an instrument with different tunings is not a
new idea.

Lutes also had different tunings, as far back as Dalza in 1508, but
particularly in the first part of the 17th century. I don't know off
the back of my head how many different lute tunings there were
altogether, but there were certainly quite a few.

The mandora had many different tunings in the 18th century. I seem
to remember there were about 40 different mandora tunings, but I'd
need to check.

What I don't need to check is that there were over 50 different
tunings for the lyra viol in 17th-century England. The lyra viol is
another 6-string instrument.

Biber used several different tunings for the violin.

I could mention quite a few different tunings for the 5-string
banjo.

No doubt there are other instruments too - who knows? - maybe even
the charango. :-)

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: tuning variation


> there's a huge variety of tunings for the guitar.
> given that the renaissance lute also has 6 strings,
> why do you suppose there isn't such a variety for it?
>
> some tunings are more versatile while others have a
> particular effect.  given the "do-re-mi-etc."
> progression as a basis for melody, how do you suppose
> these tunings evolved?




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Balcarres Ms

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Manolo,

I have asked Matthew Spring, who is editing the Balcarres MS. He
says that he is expecting proofs any time now. The last work he did
was on the list of concordances, which is apparently considerable.

This facsimile edition has been on the go for many years. There have
been all kinds of problems, but my impression is, that, when we have
all given up hope, it will suddenly appear on sale.

The good news is that the edition has not been abandoned. In being
patient, we need to remember the huge amount of work involved in
preparing editions of this kind, often with little or no financial
reward for those who do it.

Saludos from Nottingham,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LUTELIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:05 PM
Subject: Balcarres Ms


> Hi,
>
> does somebody of you know some news about the long awaited
publication
> of the Balcarres Ms ?
>
> Saludos from Barcelona,
>
> Manolo Laguillo




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Thoughts on increased tension on Baroque lute list

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman and Rainer,

The only mention of Lenz I can find on the Baroque Lute List is a
message from Marcus Lutz on 8th May 2001. To save you looking for
it, I've copied it below.

My archives go back only as far as 29th October 1999, so it is
possible that there are other messages about Lenz on the Baroque
Lute List, which are earlier than that.

I've not checked the main Lute List.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

Marcus' message:

Hello Roman,
Hamann seemed to have been playing in coffee houses to earn his
living (before and after the told
meeting with this lutenist).
Look at (in German)
http://mauthner-gesellschaft.de/mauthner/hist/hama/hama3.html

There is another poet of the Sturm-und-Drang-Period from Königsberg,
who liked to play the lute:
Jakob M. R. Lenz (1751-1792).


Markus

- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: thoughts on increased tension on Baroque lute list


> > "Sturm und Drang" is a famous play by Klinger.
> > The time of the "Geniekult" is today called "Sturm und Drang" -
after
> > Klinger's play.
> >
> > Famous plays of this period are Goethe's Goetz, Schiller's
Räuber, and Lenz's
> > Hofmeister and Soldaten.
> >
> > All these plays should be available online at the German
Gutenberg web site.
> > By the way, does anybody know if Lenz played the lute? He seems
to be quite
> > familiar with lute terminology.
> Yes, we do. this has been discussed before, on the Baroque list.
> RT




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Dawn Culbertson

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ed,

It is certainly sad news that Dawn Culbertson has died. I never met
her, but I enjoyed reading her contributions to this list. She
combined a love of the lute and its music with common sense. Typical
was her attitude to piped music in public places, expressed in her
message to this list on 16th May 2001. This is what she wrote:

"In my case, it depends. I have no objection to some pleasant
background music (live, preferably) playing at a restaurant or cafe,
or at an event like an art opening or reception. But I don't like
whatever system of thinking believes that there must be music on at
all times, everywhere. I don't see the point of music, particularly
loud, obnoxious music, playing at malls, stores, banks or while
you're on hold. And I think someone ought to outlaw the playing of
canned music in between sets of live music anywhere. I've NEVER been
able to figure out the mentality behind that. (In fact, that
happened at one restaurant where I've played--the minute I put down
my lute for a 5" break, some idiot would turn on the CD player and
out would come Tori Amos, Cuban music or jazz. I have no objection
to any of these three but not under those circumstances! And why did
the people that worked there think the patrons would object to 5
minutes of silence between my sets? I can't figure that out for the
life of me.)"

I had read that particular message yesterday morning, browsing
through her e-mails in my computer archives. I remembered it later
that evening, while playing guitar in a Nottingham pub. As soon as
we stopped playing for a short break, someone switched on a CD.

May she rest in peace.

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: Dawn Culbertson


> To all on the lute list,
>
> It gives me great sadness to announce to the lute net that Dawn
Culbertson
> passed away.  She was a contributor to this list occasionally, was
a
> lutenist in the Baltiomore area, and was a current board member of
the lute
> Society of America.
>
> I liked Dawn very much, and I recall spending time with her this
summer at
> the LSA festival in Cleveland.  She loved the lute, and was kind
and
> enthusiastic person.
>
> I do not know what else to say, other than I am very sad about it.
>
> Ed Martin




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Broken string

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Caroline,

It would appear that your F string is a wound string. Wound strings
tend to get stuck at the nut. You can avoid this by rubbing a pencil
on the nut and on the string, where they come into contact with each
other. The graphite of the pencil lead acts as a lubricant.

To find the right place on the string, tune the string roughly up to
pitch, mark the top of the string immediately over the nut with your
pencil. Unwind the string enough for the pencil to get all around
it, and plaster it with graphite at the place marked. Then when you
tighten it back up, it slips easily over the nut.

Martin Shepherd's advice is quite important, i.e. always tune
strings from below the note upwards, rather than from above the note
downwards (in pitch). You may need to keep turning the string down
to be able to do this. If you are not sure whether a note is in tune
or not, or you know it is not in tune but can't tell whether it is
flat or sharp, again, do what Martin suggests. After you've turned
the string down, you'll hear the note recognisably flat, and then
you'll hear it grow into tune as you turn the peg.

I have less enthusiasm for Howard Posner's suggestion of playing
without any clothes on. The lute has a tendency to stick to one's
skin, which can't do the varnish much good. Besides, if you are used
to practising that way, what happens when you come to perform?

To add to what Howard says about turning the pegs, I would suggest
thinking of the peg more as a screw than a nail. In other words,
push the peg inwards as you turn it, as if screwing it in, rather
than tune the string up to pitch, and then push the peg straight
into the peghole like a nail hammered into a piece of wood. Pushing
the peg in without turning it, may distort the pitch of the note
slightly, and may even damage the peghole.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

- Original Message -
From: "Caroline Chamberlain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 12:11 AM
Subject: Broken string


> Dear Lute Listers
>
> I obtained my first lute a couple of weeks ago and have just
broken a
> string. There has been a lot of technical stuff about strings on
the
> discussion list in recent times, but to be honest, such
technicalities are
> beyond me.  I should like some practical advice, please, because I
don't
> understand why I broke the string. I was trying to tune it to F,
and had
> got to E, so it was well below what I was aiming for. I should
have thought
> that there was no reason for the break. I had successfully tuned
the lute a
> couple of times in the previous week, so I know it's possible!
>
> As a classical guitarist, I do find the tuning pegs awkward.
Indeed, I am
> finding the whole lute awkward at present, but I've no doubt that
> eventually I might get the hang of it and actually be able to play
something!
>
> In the meantime, any practical hints on tuning - without too much
science -
> would be most appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Regards
>
> Caroline




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Italian Christmas Songs

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

Off topic, I'm afraid, but hopefully someone might be able to help
me in my hour of need.

Please could someone provide me with the Italian words for some
well-known Christmas carols and/or songs. Things like We Three
Kings, Jingle Bells, Silent Night, that sort of thing, but in
Italian, not English. I need about half a dozen.

Many thanks,

Stewart McCoy.




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Question about lute courses/strings

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Jon,

I am amazed that you "wonder whether the actual text is that
important." The text is essential. Without it, you have nothing. We
know a lot about lute music, because so much was carefully written
down, often with detailed instructions on how to play it. It is
quite wrong to suggest that "the various notations are reasonably
recent, when compared with the age of music." We learn the same
notation people used in the past, and their books of music survive
for us to study. It is also pie in the sky to imagine that we can
"know the feel of the music of the age", by ignoring the very
sources which provide us with that knowledge.

I think it is important to know what your aims are. You may want to
look at music from a historical perspective, in which case you will
want to learn as much as possible about the music, and to be able to
play it exactly how it is notated in the source. On the other hand,
you may want to adapt the music for your own needs, and historical
accuracy may not be important at all. Both approaches have their
merits.

Yet even if historical accuracy is not important to you, I still
think it is wise to learn as much as you can first, before trying to
do your own thing.

For example, when I tried learning the banjo by listening to
records, I would play the notes g', e', d' like this:

2
---3-
-
-
-0---
 T  M  I

Fortunately a friend noticed me struggling to play the notes with a
reverse roll (T M I), and advised playing the same three notes like
this instead:

---0-
5
-
-
-0---
 T  I  M

I would never have thought of playing them that way, but using a
forward roll (T I M) was so much easier.

In other words, relying on what I could pick up on my own by
listening to a record, would have caused me no end of problems. I
was turning a simple piece of music into a difficult one.

After studying the instrument for some time, I was eventually able
to improvise, to do my own thing, to choose how to play notes in a
way which suited me best, but all that had to come later on.

It doesn't matter if the music you want to play is by John Dowland
or Earl Scruggs. You first need to learn what the experts did,
before you try doing it yourself. Much may be learned, of course, by
listening to recordings, but if music is readily available in
written form, it would be foolhardy to ignore it.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bill
kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Question about lute courses/strings


> Bill,

> A comment on your message, without seeing the start. Stewart has
pointed out
> the difference between learning from slowed down sound and the
written music
> he didn't have. But I wonder whether the actual text is that
important. We
> all know that the various notations are reasonably recent, when
compared
> with the age of music. So isn't it important to know the feel of
the music
> of the age rather than the specific notes and style of another
perfomer (who
> may be playing  just note rather than music). I'm yet incompetant
on the
> lute, but many of the pieces I've down loaded as text I feel I
play
> properly, if a bit slowly and with mistakes.  Given the form of
the notation
> I doubt that the rythmes were strictly kept, the dance and the
song probably
> dictated the sound.
>
> One can take a single melody line and make the sound of an age by
playing it
> well, or one can play every not of a transciption and make a
series of
> notes. Of course it is best if one has the skills to make the
polyphony
> work, but better a well played melody than a mish-mosh of notes.

> Best, Jon




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Vihuela/guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Doc,

I am sorry not to have got straight back to you about this. I
mislaid my copy of _The Lute_ (1984, part 1), but it has turned up
just now under a pile of papers.

The C major tuning is given on p. 28 of Antonio Corona's article,
"The Viola da Mano and the Vihuela, Evidence and Suggestions about
their Construction", _The Lute_, vol. XXIV (1984, part 1), pp.3-32.
He writes:

Juan Bermudo, _Declaración de Instrumentos_ (Osuna, 1555), fol.
XCIII.
Vihuela: g   c   f   a   d'  g"
Discante: c   f   b _flat_' d'   g'   c"
Assuming a tuning similar to that of the Vihuela
Guitarra:  g   c'   e'   a'
Guitarra:  c   e   g   c'  e'  g'
"This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ strung with 6
courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." Fol. ciiiv

There were, however, some misprints in this article, which Antonio
corrected on p. 47 of _The Lute_ (1986, part 1). He corrected the
vihuela tuning to G  c  f  a  d' g', and the discante tuning to c
f   _B flat_ d'  g'  c". He didn't change the tunings for the
Guitarra, so I assume they were OK.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Bermudo's book at home.

I have had a quick flick through Matteis' _False Consonances_, and
couldn't find any mention of an open C tuning there. I imagine you
must have been thinking of something else.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "doc rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Vihuela/guitar


> Hi Everyone.
>
> Can we go back to this topic for a minute? I realized that I had a
> translation of Bermudo done by Dawn Astrid Espinosa (JLSA
XXVIII-XXIX,
> 1995-6), so I took at look and I couldn't find any reference to
the c e
> g c' e' g' tuning; there is a five-course guitar in a similar
tuning (G
> d g b d'), but I can't find anything else. If someone is familiar
with
> this translation, maybe you could tell me on which page I should
look?
>
> I also seem to remember a guitar book describing continuo playing
in an
> open C tuning. Is this Nicola Matteis (c.1680) or something like
that,
> or am I completely off base?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doc Rossi





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Sape

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

I seek information about the so-called boat-lute played in Sarawak,
known as a "sape". I have the opportunity of borrowing one. It has
frets missing, a broken string, and generally needs tidying up.
Someone has stuck drawing pins (thumb tacks in American) on the
front of the instrument, presumably to guide the strings. It has
metal strings, yet a website I found on the Internet says that the
strings were traditionally made from a Sago tree, and nowadays are
made of nylon. If this instrument can be mended, I would also like
music to play on it, in particular the music for "Datun julud", one
of the warrior dances associated with head-hunting.

Does anyone know of a sape expert, who lives in England, to whom I
could turn for advice?

Any help would be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




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Beards - conclusion

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

The beard thread has run its course, so it is now appropriate to
draw a conclusion.

It has not been easy to calculate an accurate percentage of bearded
lute-netters, because some people, like Ron Fletcher and Jon Murphy,
have beards only for some of the time. One has to draw a line
somewhere, so I count them both as bearded, along with Stephan
Olbertz (who shaves only once a fortnight), but I don't include Bill
Kilpatrick (stubbly most mornings). I assume from Al Padilla's
cryptic joke that he is bearded. I include Arto Wikla, but only by a
whisker.

Bearded

Stewart McCoy (Just for the record, I have a beard)
Leonard Williams (Beard here)
Bob Purrenhage (I, too, have a beard)
Roman Turovsky (And so do I)
Stephan Olbertz (If shaving only every two weeks counts)
Thomas Schall (moustache and a certain laziness)
Ron Fletcher (April to September only)
Jon Murphy (bearded sometimes, and sometimes not)
Al Padilla (I feel your pain)
Gary Digman (then they levied one on me)
Arto Wikla (perhaps called "mosca")
Doctor Oakroot (I have no idea how to shave)
Daniel Heiman (Beard firmly in place)

Clean-shaven

Edward Martin (I do not have one)
Bill Kilpatrick (stubbly most mornings)
Donatella Galetti (I don't have a beard)
Carl Donsbach (I wore a beard for a while)

Didn't say

Rainer aus dem Spring (how many female list members have a beard?)
Paolo Declich (I can testify it)
Stuart LeBlanc (resulting in the reduction of lute-related markets)

That means that of the 17 people who have stated whether or not they
are bearded, 13 are bearded, and only four clean shaven. That's a
pretty high percentage of bearded lutenists.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




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Question about lute courses/strings

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Joe,

It is easier to get hold of the music than transcribe it by ear from
a record.

A course consisting of two strings may sound like a single string,
if the strings are perfectly in tune with each other. If you play
with nails, there is a tendency to catch just one string of each
pair, but if you use the flesh of your finger, you have a better
chance of striking both strings. It is important for the finger to
strike the strings quickly and cleanly, or you might hear "bdum",
i.e. one string sounding slightly later than the other.

Just for the record, John Come Kiss Me Now is related to many other
pieces including the Quadro Pavan, which all have similar chord
sequences. It's Bile Dem Cabbage Down in disguise.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Joe Helmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: question about lute courses/strings


> New to the list here...
>
> I'm a classical guitarist in love with lute music, and am
transcribing
> a song by MacFarlane.  I recorded it, raised it an octave, and
then am
> playing it back at 50% speed to help in getting an accurate
> transcription
>
> My question is this:  Do all lutes have two-string courses on the
> treble-most strings?  I'm listening to this MacFarlane piece
("John
> Come Kiss Me Now") and I'd swear that he's plucking single
strings...
>
> Can anyone educate me on this?
>
> Joe




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Question about lute courses/strings

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Paolo,

No doubt people at the time of the Renaissance did all sorts of
silly things, but there's no reason why we should copy everything
they did. Making mistakes is not normally worthy of imitation.

Relying on one's ears or one's memory no doubt accounts for many of
the errors which found their way into copies of music in the past.
You have only to read what Thomas Morley and John Dowland wrote
about imperfect copies, to understand the frustration musicians
experienced long ago, while working with bad copies. Look at the
marginalia of Sir Nicholas Lestrange in his viol manuscripts to
appreciate his desperate attempt at salvaging something approaching
a reliable text.

Listening to records to learn music may have some merit. One learns
to listen attentively. I did it myself over 30 years ago, listening
to records of banjo music slowed down to sound like five-string
double basses. It was a painstaking time-consuming process, but I
had no choice, because I couldn't get hold of the written music. I
think I would have become a better player, if I'd spent all that
time practising, instead of crouching over a record player or tape
recorder. If the music is available in print, why not use it?

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "sam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: Re:Question about lute courses/strings


> Even if a personal trascription by ear is near the practice of the
Renaissance, or not?
>
> Paolo
>
>
> > Dear Joe,
> >
> > It is easier to get hold of the music than transcribe it by ear
from
> > a record.




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Italian Christmas Songs

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Lino, Donatella, and Bill,

Thank you all very much indeed for your help in my quest for
Christmas carols in Italian. I needed the songs this evening for an
informal gathering of people studying the Italian language. I have
just returned home. The songs were sung lustily by all present to
the accompaniment of my guitar. It was extremely successful.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Italian Christmas Songs


> Dear Stewart,
>
> here is what I found. The first three songs are commonly sung at
Christmas,
> I don't know about the last one. If you digit "canti di Natale.
testi-
> musica" on Google, I think you'll find more.
> Any willing Sautscheck to put them for the lute?
>
> Donatella
>
> http://web.tiscali.it/awebd
>
>
> Tu scendi dalle stelle
>
> Tu scendi dalle stelle o Re del cielo,
> e vieni in una grotta al freddo e al gelo,
> e vieni in una grotta al freddo e al gelo.
> O Bambino mio divino, io ti vedo qui a tremar.
> O Dio beato!
> Ah! Quanto ti costò l'avermi amato.
> Ah! Quanto ti costò l'avermi amato.
>
> A te che sei del mondo il Creatore,
> mancano i panni e il fuoco, o mio Signore.
> Mancano i panni e il fuoco, o mio Signore.
> Caro eletto pargoletto, quanta questa povertà
> più mi innamora, giacchè ti fece amor povero ancora.
> Giacchè ti fece amor povero ancora.
>
> Tu lasci del tuo Padre il divin seno,
> per venire a tremar su questo fieno;
> per venire a tremar su questo fieno.
> Caro eletto del mio petto, dove amor ti trasportò!
> O Gesù mio, perchè tanto patir, per amor mio...
>
> http://www.taccuinodiviaggio.it/ricorrenze/canti-di-natale.htm
>
>
> Astro del ciel
>
> Astro del ciel, Pargol divin, mite Agnello Redentor!
> Tu che i Vati da lungi sognar, tu che angeliche voci nunziar,
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
>
> Astro del ciel, Pargol divin, mite Agnello Redentor!
> Tu di stirpe regale decor, Tu virgineo, mistico fior,
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
> Luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
>
> Astro del ciel, Pargol divin, mite Agnello Redentor!
> Tu disceso a scontare l'error, Tu sol nato a parlare d'amor,
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
> Luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
>
>
> Venite fedeli
>
> Venite Fedeli, l'angelo ci invita, venite, venite a Betlemme.
> Nasce per noi Cristo Salvatore.
> Venite adoriamo, venite adoriamo, venite adoriamo il Signore Gesù.
> La luce del mondo brilla in una grotta; la fede di guida a
Betlemme.
> La notte resplende, tutto il mondo attende: seguiamo i pastori a
Betlemme.
> Il Figlio di Dio, Re dell'universo, si è fatto Bambino a Betlemme.
> "Sia gloria nei cieli, pace sulla terra", un angelo annunzia a
Betlemme
>
>
>
>   http://digilander.libero.it/viaconforti/natale/canzoni.htm
>
> Bianco Natale
>
> Tu neve scendi ancor, lenta
> per dar la gioia ad ogni cuor:
> è Natale, spunta la Pace Santa,
> l' Amor che sa conquistar
> Tu dici nel cader, neve:
> "Il cielo devi ringraziar
> alza gli occhi, guarda lassù:
> è Natale, non si soffre più"
>
>
>
http://www.quantomanca.com/speciale/Natale_2000/musicbox/musicbox2.h
tm#tunev
> e
>
> Din Don Dan
> Scende giù dal ciel
> su tutta la città
> un candido mantel
> che la ricoprirà,
> la stella annuncerà:
> è nato un bambinel
> nella vecchia stalla
> tra la mucca e l' asinel.
>
> Din don dan, din don dan
> che felicità!
> Il Natale cambierà,
> tutti buoni renderà!
>
> Din don dan, din don dan
> din don, din don dan!
> Oggi é nato il buon Gesù
> tra la neve che vien giù.
>
> La renna al Polo Nord
> scampanellando va,
> le strenne porterà
> a tutti i bimbi buoni.
> E dalle Alpi al mar,
> i bimbi di quaggiù
> aspettano quei doni
> che regala il buon Gesù
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:26 PM
> Subject: Italian Christmas Songs
>
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Off topic, I'm afraid, but hopefully someone might be able to
help
> > me in my hour of need.
> >
> > Please could someone provide me with the Italian words for some
> > well-known Christmas carols and/or songs. Things like We Three
> > Kings, Jingle Bells, Silent Night, that sort of thing, but in
> > Italian, not English. I need about half a dozen.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Stewart McCoy.
> >
> >
>




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Beards

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Roman,

I am aghast at the thought of a beard tax, which you mention in
connection with Peter the Great. A great many lutenists today have
beards.

I would be interested to know what percentage of contributors to
this list have beards. My guess is that it would be surprisingly
high, maybe more than 30%, even allowing for female contributors.

Just for the record, I have a beard.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Question about lute courses/strings


> > Dear Jon,
> >
> > I am amazed
> Dear Stewart, could you ever write "aghast"? Maybe once?
> RT

- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: renaissance america (AustrianArnold,etc)

> > When Peter the Great shaved off the last boyar beard?
> Took 'em awhile to get shaved. There was also a period of beard
tax (sic!).




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Beards - Final Conclusion

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

My apologies to Mathias. I missed your earlier message, because it
was marked SPAM by my server. I would like to think that the server
was particularly adept at picking up badly spelt rude words in
German :-), but unfortunately it marks many innocent Lute Net
messages as Spam. Not only do I often overlook such messages;
changing the subject title plays merry Hell with my filing system,
so a message called Beards gets filed under "S" for Spam.

I don't think Stuart Leblanc's stubble is quite enough to count as a
beard, since it sometimes lasts only for a week.

In view of these and other messages, I have updated my list with the
following additions:

Bearded

Eugene Braig IV (I am bearded)
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier (I am also bearded)
Alain Veylit (I also have a beard)

Clean Shaven

Mathias Rösel (I had a Gaultier-beard)
Stuart Leblanc (one to three weeks of stubble)
Daniel Shoskes (No beard here)

That brings the total to 16 bearded and seven clean shaven out of
the 23 people who responded. The percentage of those sporting a
beard is still remarkably high.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: beard


> Until some three years ago I tried to look like Denis Gaultier (on
that
> sole fab pic by what's-his-name) in terms of hair-dressing. Then,
a girl
> friend of mine said, Mathias du sieht scheisze aus so (no
translation
> available). Which changed my mind. No long hair any longer, and no
beard
> nor moustache. I still try to play Gaultier, and she says it's
better
> now.
> --
> Best,
>
> Mathias








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Beards - Final Conclusion

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear All,

My apologies to Mathias. I missed your earlier message, because it
was marked SPAM by my server. I would like to think that the server
was particularly adept at picking up badly spelt rude words in
German :-), but unfortunately it marks many innocent Lute Net
messages as Spam. Not only do I often overlook such messages;
changing the subject title plays merry Hell with my filing system,
so a message called Beards gets filed under "S" for Spam.

I don't think Stuart Leblanc's stubble is quite enough to count as a
beard, since it sometimes lasts only for a week.

In view of these and other messages, I have updated my list with the
following additions:

Bearded

Eugene Braig IV (I am bearded)
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier (I am also bearded)
Alain Veylit (I also have a beard)

Clean Shaven

Mathias Rösel (I had a Gaultier-beard)
Stuart Leblanc (one to three weeks of stubble)
Daniel Shoskes (No beard here)

That brings the total to 16 bearded and seven clean shaven out of
the 23 people who responded. The percentage of those sporting a
beard is still remarkably high.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: beard


> Until some three years ago I tried to look like Denis Gaultier (on
that
> sole fab pic by what's-his-name) in terms of hair-dressing. Then,
a girl
> friend of mine said, Mathias du sieht scheisze aus so (no
translation
> available). Which changed my mind. No long hair any longer, and no
beard
> nor moustache. I still try to play Gaultier, and she says it's
better
> now.
> --
> Best,
>
> Mathias








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Lute recitals in Leicester 2005

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ron,

You forgot to include Lynda Sayce's group Charivari Agréable, who
will be performing at the Leicester Early Music Festival on
Wednesday 25th May, 2005. 8.00 p.m. at St Mary De Castro Church,
which is located on Castle Street, Leicester. The cost is £13(£11),
or limited view £11(£9). The programme is called "Eleganz und
Empfindsamkeit", and Lynda will undoubtedly be playing one or more
plucked instrument, at least a theorbo or two. Music will be by
Pachelbel, Bach, Telemann and others.

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Cc: "Pam Freeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:54 PM
Subject: Lute recitals in Leicester 2005


> As part of Leicester's Early Music programme, the following are
lute
> related.
>
>
> Friday 27th May
http://www.earlymusicleicester.co.uk/event.php?id=20
>
> Monday 30th May
http://www.earlymusicleicester.co.uk/event.php?id=25
>
> Friday 11th June
http://www.earlymusicleicester.co.uk/event.php?id=69
>
> Tuesday 31st May
http://www.earlymusicleicester.co.uk/event.php?id=71
>
> Or
>
> http://www.earlymusicleicester.co.uk/eventlist.php?view=all
>
> and scroll down.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Ron (UK)




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Gallot speaks...

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bernd,

According to my Harrap's Standard French and English Dictionary,
“flatter la corde” means "to caress the string, to play with
expression”. I think what Gallot is saying is that we should learn a
piece of music absolutely as it is written - in a mechanical way,
exactly in time, and without any sort of expression. Once we have
got all the notes safely learned, we can start playing with them,
bending the time if we think it is appropriate to do so, and so on.

A common mistake - and guitarists and lute players are the worst
offenders - is to start playing expressively too soon. They learn a
piece in one particular way, often with the rhythm all over the
place, and once they have learned it, they cannot deviate from that
particular interpretation. A good performance will have freedom of
expression, but that freedom and flexibility cannot be achieved
without first learning the piece properly in the first place.

I think I'd translate Gallot's advice as, "Don't try playing with
expression when you are learning a piece, so that you are better
able to master it."

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.



- Original Message -
From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" 
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:49 AM
Subject: Gallot speaks...


> Happy Easter,
>
> in the beginning of his "Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens
Modes..."
> Gallot gives a short "Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer
prprement du luth"
> in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read
them. Well, ...
>
> Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of:
>
> 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie
pour s'en
> rendre mieux le maistre.
>
> ? :-)
>
> Thank you very much.
> BH




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