Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I wonder how many lines of code they have to  go through?
Must be thousands of lines of code.
Think of that!
/A
> On 24 Oct 2015, at 20:25, Robin  wrote:
> 
> That's not "True" as (I Beleive) Google does Manufacture its Own (the Nexus) 
> & Microsoft does with (Surface & Lumia & XBox)
> 
> Their TTS offerings may not be ToTheStandard of Apple's TTS (VoiceOver), but 
> they are steadily making improvements along the road
> 
> 
> 
> On the OtherHand, Apple "appears" to be slipping InThisArea EvenThough they 
> offer additionalFeatures, previous features are "slipping" in my view
> 
> 
> I don't recall many VoiceOver "Bugs" with the release of 
> iOS3-iOS4-etc., but with the Release of iOS8 many VoiceOver 
> "Bugs" are steadily surfacing
> 
> Apple made "sure" NonVoiceOver "Bugs were not "present" IN iOS9's 
> Release because they couldn't handle the PR (PublicRelations) if it weren't, 
> but they could handle VoiceOver's Bugs
> 
> JustSayihng
> At 10:29 AM 10/24/2015, you wrote:
>>   "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader 
>> vendors are little."
>> 
>>   This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. 
>> Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher level 
>> of responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires accessibility have 
>> the responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues that impacts that 
>> accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart if we are not 
>> reporting bugs.
>> 
>>   And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to work 
>> together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are squashed 
>> rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?
>> 
>>   I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. But 
>> surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, most who 
>> do not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to make 
>> changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the 
>>> necessity for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme 
>>> importance of keeping your commitment regarding the quality of excess 
>>> ability. I only meant that I didn't think they should have to know about 
>>> all the inns and outs. But they need to do is ensure that the final product 
>>> does what it should do. And the way they do that is by hiring and holding 
>>> accountable people who know what they're doing. I think the jury still is 
>>> out on whether they can do that. Google certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, 
>>> there's a laugh. The problem with the little screen reader vendors is that 
>>> there well little. So they can't do it either. No model is perfect alas. 
>>> The big companies should be able to do it. They have the resources. Do they 
>>> have the will?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  
 They may not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency 
 and importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the 
 latest products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to 
 his engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products 
 great, then so can his underlings, past and future.
 
 As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, 
 that may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion 
 about quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great 
 experience while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream 
 company can never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility 
 company, but others might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is 
 inferior and you are endorsing the view that we should merely be grateful 
 for an inferior alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am one of these 
 people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be indistinguishable in quality 
 from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear that Apple’s 
 internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business pressures that 
 adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not just for an 
 initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I 
 did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w
>> as untenable.
 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Mary Otten]

For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the necessity 
for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme importance of keeping 
your commitment regarding the quality of excess ability. I only meant that I 
didn't think they should have to know about all the inns and outs. But they 
need to do is ensure that the final product does what it should do. And the way 
they do that is by hiring and holding accountable people who know what they're 
doing. I think the jury still is out on whether they can do that. Google 
certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, there's a laugh. The problem with the 
little screen reader vendors is that there well little. So they can't do it 
either. No model is perfect alas. The big companies should be able to do it. 
They have the resources. Do they have the will?
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may 
> not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and 
> importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
> products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his 
> engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products great, 
> then so can his underlings, past and future.
> 
> As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that 
> may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about quality 
> control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience while using 
> VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can never deliver 
> the quality expected of an accessibility company, but others might not.  To 
> these people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are endorsing the view 
> that we should merely be grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what 
> we deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
> indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear 
> that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business 
> pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not 
> just for an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, 
> but if I did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy 
> was untenable.
> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[E.T.]

   "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader 
vendors are little."


   This is because none of them build both the hardware and the 
software. Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even 
higher level of responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires 
accessibility have the responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues 
that impacts that accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart 
if we are not reporting bugs.


   And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to 
work together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are 
squashed rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?


   I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like 
Apple. But surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of 
employees, most who do not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of 
you want to make changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:

For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the necessity 
for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme importance of keeping 
your commitment regarding the quality of excess ability. I only meant that I 
didn't think they should have to know about all the inns and outs. But they 
need to do is ensure that the final product does what it should do. And the way 
they do that is by hiring and holding accountable people who know what they're 
doing. I think the jury still is out on whether they can do that. Google 
certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, there's a laugh. The problem with the 
little screen reader vendors is that there well little. So they can't do it 
either. No model is perfect alas. The big companies should be able to do it. 
They have the resources. Do they have the will?
Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:

I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may not 
know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and importance.  
Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest products for his 
admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his engineers.  If Steve Jobs 
could understand what made Apple products great, then so can his underlings, 
past and future.

As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that may 
be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about quality 
control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience while using 
VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can never deliver the 
quality expected of an accessibility company, but others might not.  To these 
people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are endorsing the view that we 
should merely be grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what we 
deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear 
that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business 
pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not just 
for an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I 
did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w

as untenable.


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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Krister Ekstrom]

Plus, you have to report the bugs in a tome that makes us worthy of making 
business with and that’s *not* the kind of tone we often hear here. Sadly i’ve 
been in beta test groups where the tone was much like that around here and as 
long as that tone persisted nothing much was achieved.
/Krister

> 24 okt. 2015 kl. 19:29 skrev E.T. :
> 
>   "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader vendors 
> are little."
> 
>   This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. 
> Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher level of 
> responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires accessibility have the 
> responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues that impacts that 
> accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart if we are not reporting 
> bugs.
> 
>   And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to work 
> together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are squashed 
> rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?
> 
>   I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. But 
> surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, most who do 
> not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to make changes, 
> hire on as a liaison and good luck.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the 
>> necessity for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme importance 
>> of keeping your commitment regarding the quality of excess ability. I only 
>> meant that I didn't think they should have to know about all the inns and 
>> outs. But they need to do is ensure that the final product does what it 
>> should do. And the way they do that is by hiring and holding accountable 
>> people who know what they're doing. I think the jury still is out on whether 
>> they can do that. Google certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, there's a 
>> laugh. The problem with the little screen reader vendors is that there well 
>> little. So they can't do it either. No model is perfect alas. The big 
>> companies should be able to do it. They have the resources. Do they have the 
>> will?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may 
>>> not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and 
>>> importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
>>> products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his 
>>> engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products great, 
>>> then so can his underlings, past and future.
>>> 
>>> As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that 
>>> may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about 
>>> quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience 
>>> while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can 
>>> never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility company, but others 
>>> might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are 
>>> endorsing the view that we should merely be grateful for an inferior 
>>> alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want 
>>> and expect VoiceOver to be indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid 
>>> Windows screen readers, and fear that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver 
>>> puts it under unwelcome business pressures that adversely affect us, 
>>> particularly in recent times, and not just for an initial release either.  
>>> I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I did, it would only because 
>>> I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w
> as untenable.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
> 
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You received this message 

Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Robin]

That's not "True" as (I Beleive) Google does 
Manufacture its Own (the Nexus) & Microsoft does with (Surface & Lumia & XBox)


Their TTS offerings may not be ToTheStandard of 
Apple's TTS (VoiceOver), but they are steadily 
making improvements along the road




On the OtherHand, Apple "appears" to be slipping 
InThisArea EvenThough they offer 
additionalFeatures, previous features are "slipping" in my view



I don't recall many VoiceOver "Bugs" with 
the release of iOS3-iOS4-etc., but with the 
Release of iOS8 many VoiceOver "Bugs" are steadily surfacing


Apple made "sure" NonVoiceOver "Bugs were 
not "present" IN iOS9's Release because they 
couldn't handle the PR (PublicRelations) if it 
weren't, but they could handle VoiceOver's Bugs


JustSayihng
At 10:29 AM 10/24/2015, you wrote:
   "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a 
laugh. And the screen reader vendors are little."


   This is because none of them build both the 
hardware and the software. Apple does both and 
quite well. Does that put them on an even 
higher level of responsibility? No. But we as 
the user who requires accessibility have the 
responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues 
that impacts that accessibility. It does little 
good to pick them apart if we are not reporting bugs.


   And if we are reporting the bugs then might 
we not be far better to work together to seek 
work arounds until such a time when the bugs 
are squashed rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?


   I know nothing of what it takes to run a 
large corporation like Apple. But surely they 
have hundreds of departments, thousands of 
employees, most who do not have a clue what 
goes on next door. If any of you want to make 
changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely 
agree with you about the necessity for those 
with power and Apple to recognize the extreme 
importance of keeping your commitment regarding 
the quality of excess ability. I only meant 
that I didn't think they should have to know 
about all the inns and outs. But they need to 
do is ensure that the final product does what 
it should do. And the way they do that is by 
hiring and holding accountable people who know 
what they're doing. I think the jury still is 
out on whether they can do that. Google 
certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, there's a 
laugh. The problem with the little screen 
reader vendors is that there well little. So 
they can't do it either. No model is perfect 
alas. The big companies should be able to do 
it. They have the resources. Do they have the will?

Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:

I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t 
know about accessibility.  They may not know 
the details, but they ought to understand the 
urgency and importance.  Steve Jobs was once 
the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
products for his admiring audience; he 
didn’t palm the job off to his 
engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand 
what made Apple products great, then so can his underlings, past and future.


As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely 
one part of accessibility, that may be 
completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to 
a discussion about quality control.  We are 
the customers and we expect a great experience 
while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept 
that a mainstream company can never deliver 
the quality expected of an accessibility 
company, but others might not.  To these 
people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you 
are endorsing the view that we should merely 
be grateful for an inferior alternative 
instead of what we deserve.  I am one of these 
people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid 
Windows screen readers, and fear that 
Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it 
under unwelcome business pressures that 
adversely affect us, particularly in recent 
times, and not just for an initial release 
either.  I would prefer not to move to 
Windows, but if I did, it would only because I 
finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w

as untenable.


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RE: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[M. Taylor]

Hello Chris,

I occasionally use the Zoom tool in OS X.  It's very nice and works very well.  

I've considered purchasing ZoomText for the Mac but, as yet, see no need to do 
so as the native 
Zoom tool meets all of my needs.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Chris Gilland
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 3:18 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

You mention about them having other accessibility things than just Voiceover to 
deal with.  I’m curious if anyone on this list happens to therefore use Zoom 
either on OSX, or on I O S.  If so, I don’t have quite enough sight to use it 
on either, but I’m wondering in general how well it works, and how stable it is 
in El Capitan?  Which oh, my! I just noticed something.  In the latest version 
that just came out, 10.11.1, Alex finally says Capitan correctly.  Not really a 
major thing to be excited about, but still, it is one thing fixed.

That’s awesome!

Chris.

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:45 PM, Daniel Miller  wrote:
> 
> I agree, Mary, hence why they have their own team of accessibility engineers, 
> that *have* to work on 4 different operating systems, and work on not just 
> Voiceover. It makes me sick how many people think VoiceOver is the only 
> accessibility feature Apple has to work on at all times, so they expect 
> features to be 100% bug free upon release. Apple will get to the issues when 
> they get to them, so people just need to be patient, or report them every so 
> often to get them bumped up in the priority list, or don’t let the door hit 
> ya where the good lord split ya.
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Brian,
>> I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
>> management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
>> regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or 
>> not the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't 
>> really understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch 
>> works, that really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
>> Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. 
>>> Captain and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
>>> accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
>>> yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
>>> understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan 
>>> and VO I am not surprised.
 On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El 
 Capitan, staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage 
 I’d say the El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  
 Responsiveness is a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for 
 sheer lack of choice and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every 
 time I update.  But other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
 
 -- 
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>>> 
>>> -- 
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>> 
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> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Mary Otten]

Google does not make their Nexus phones and tablets. The contract that out to 
other companies.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> That's not "True" as (I Beleive) Google does Manufacture its Own (the Nexus) 
> & Microsoft does with (Surface & Lumia & XBox)
> 
> Their TTS offerings may not be ToTheStandard of Apple's TTS (VoiceOver), but 
> they are steadily making improvements along the road
> 
> 
> 
> On the OtherHand, Apple "appears" to be slipping InThisArea EvenThough they 
> offer additionalFeatures, previous features are "slipping" in my view
> 
> 
> I don't recall many VoiceOver "Bugs" with the release of 
> iOS3-iOS4-etc., but with the Release of iOS8 many VoiceOver 
> "Bugs" are steadily surfacing
> 
> Apple made "sure" NonVoiceOver "Bugs were not "present" IN iOS9's 
> Release because they couldn't handle the PR (PublicRelations) if it weren't, 
> but they could handle VoiceOver's Bugs
> 
> JustSayihng
> At 10:29 AM 10/24/2015, you wrote:
>>   "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader 
>> vendors are little."
>> 
>>   This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. 
>> Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher level 
>> of responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires accessibility have 
>> the responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues that impacts that 
>> accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart if we are not 
>> reporting bugs.
>> 
>>   And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to work 
>> together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are squashed 
>> rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?
>> 
>>   I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. But 
>> surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, most who 
>> do not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to make 
>> changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>>> On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the 
>>> necessity for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme 
>>> importance of keeping your commitment regarding the quality of excess 
>>> ability. I only meant that I didn't think they should have to know about 
>>> all the inns and outs. But they need to do is ensure that the final product 
>>> does what it should do. And the way they do that is by hiring and holding 
>>> accountable people who know what they're doing. I think the jury still is 
>>> out on whether they can do that. Google certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, 
>>> there's a laugh. The problem with the little screen reader vendors is that 
>>> there well little. So they can't do it either. No model is perfect alas. 
>>> The big companies should be able to do it. They have the resources. Do they 
>>> have the will?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  
 They may not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency 
 and importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the 
 latest products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to 
 his engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products 
 great, then so can his underlings, past and future.
 
 As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, 
 that may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion 
 about quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great 
 experience while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream 
 company can never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility 
 company, but others might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is 
 inferior and you are endorsing the view that we should merely be grateful 
 for an inferior alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am one of these 
 people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be indistinguishable in quality 
 from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear that Apple’s 
 internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business pressures that 
 adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not just for an 
 initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I 
 did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w
>> as untenable.
 
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 "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

It’s true: Google don’t even make the effort on Android.  They make a much more 
concerted effort on ChromeOS, though, where (surprise!) the platform is used 
much more heavily in the educational environments for which a mandate of 
accessibility would incentivise progress.

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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[E.T.]

Krister,
   You have said this before and the concept is lost on some people. It 
is so true tho, that if one wants to catch a fly, use honey, not vinegar.


   The people at Apple that we report bugs to are themselves not the 
developers but the conduit. We show them respect, we get respect in turn.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/24/2015 11:22 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

Plus, you have to report the bugs in a tome that makes us worthy of making 
business with and that’s *not* the kind of tone we often hear here. Sadly i’ve 
been in beta test groups where the tone was much like that around here and as 
long as that tone persisted nothing much was achieved.
/Krister


24 okt. 2015 kl. 19:29 skrev E.T. :

   "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader vendors are 
little."

   This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. Apple 
does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher level of 
responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires accessibility have the 
responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues that impacts that 
accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart if we are not reporting 
bugs.

   And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to work 
together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are squashed 
rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?

   I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. But 
surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, most who do 
not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to make changes, 
hire on as a liaison and good luck.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:

For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the necessity 
for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme importance of keeping 
your commitment regarding the quality of excess ability. I only meant that I 
didn't think they should have to know about all the inns and outs. But they 
need to do is ensure that the final product does what it should do. And the way 
they do that is by hiring and holding accountable people who know what they're 
doing. I think the jury still is out on whether they can do that. Google 
certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, there's a laugh. The problem with the 
little screen reader vendors is that there well little. So they can't do it 
either. No model is perfect alas. The big companies should be able to do it. 
They have the resources. Do they have the will?
Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:

I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may not 
know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and importance.  
Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest products for his 
admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his engineers.  If Steve Jobs 
could understand what made Apple products great, then so can his underlings, 
past and future.

As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that may 
be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about quality 
control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience while using 
VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can never deliver the 
quality expected of an accessibility company, but others might not.  To these 
people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are endorsing the view that we 
should merely be grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what we 
deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear 
that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business 
pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not just 
for an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I 
did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy

w

as untenable.


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to 

Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Daniel Miller]

Mary’s correct. Just because they brand them as the Google Nexus, doesn’t mean 
Google makes them. They’re made by HTC, Asus, etc.
> On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Google does not make their Nexus phones and tablets. The contract that out to 
> other companies.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 24, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Robin  wrote:
>> 
>> That's not "True" as (I Beleive) Google does Manufacture its Own (the Nexus) 
>> & Microsoft does with (Surface & Lumia & XBox)
>> 
>> Their TTS offerings may not be ToTheStandard of Apple's TTS (VoiceOver), but 
>> they are steadily making improvements along the road
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On the OtherHand, Apple "appears" to be slipping InThisArea EvenThough they 
>> offer additionalFeatures, previous features are "slipping" in my view
>> 
>> 
>> I don't recall many VoiceOver "Bugs" with the release of 
>> iOS3-iOS4-etc., but with the Release of iOS8 many VoiceOver 
>> "Bugs" are steadily surfacing
>> 
>> Apple made "sure" NonVoiceOver "Bugs were not "present" IN iOS9's 
>> Release because they couldn't handle the PR (PublicRelations) if it weren't, 
>> but they could handle VoiceOver's Bugs
>> 
>> JustSayihng
>> At 10:29 AM 10/24/2015, you wrote:
>>>  "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader 
>>> vendors are little."
>>> 
>>>  This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. 
>>> Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher level 
>>> of responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires accessibility have 
>>> the responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues that impacts that 
>>> accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart if we are not 
>>> reporting bugs.
>>> 
>>>  And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to work 
>>> together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are squashed 
>>> rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?
>>> 
>>>  I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. But 
>>> surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, most who 
>>> do not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to make 
>>> changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
 On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
 For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the 
 necessity for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme 
 importance of keeping your commitment regarding the quality of excess 
 ability. I only meant that I didn't think they should have to know about 
 all the inns and outs. But they need to do is ensure that the final 
 product does what it should do. And the way they do that is by hiring and 
 holding accountable people who know what they're doing. I think the jury 
 still is out on whether they can do that. Google certainly doesn't do it. 
 Microsoft, there's a laugh. The problem with the little screen reader 
 vendors is that there well little. So they can't do it either. No model is 
 perfect alas. The big companies should be able to do it. They have the 
 resources. Do they have the will?
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
> wrote:
> 
> I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  
> They may not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency 
> and importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the 
> latest products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off 
> to his engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple 
> products great, then so can his underlings, past and future.
> 
> As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, 
> that may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion 
> about quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great 
> experience while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream 
> company can never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility 
> company, but others might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is 
> inferior and you are endorsing the view that we should merely be grateful 
> for an inferior alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am one of 
> these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be indistinguishable in 
> quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear that Apple’s 
> internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business pressures 
> that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not just for 
> an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to 

Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Devin Prater]

For what its worth, I'm always respectful to the people at Apple. I simply tell 
them the problems, and they pass it on.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Krister Ekstrom  
> wrote:
> 
> Plus, you have to report the bugs in a tome that makes us worthy of making 
> business with and that’s *not* the kind of tone we often hear here. Sadly 
> i’ve been in beta test groups where the tone was much like that around here 
> and as long as that tone persisted nothing much was achieved.
> /Krister
> 
>> 24 okt. 2015 kl. 19:29 skrev E.T. :
>> 
>>  "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader vendors 
>> are little."
>> 
>>  This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. 
>> Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher level 
>> of responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires accessibility have 
>> the responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues that impacts that 
>> accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart if we are not 
>> reporting bugs.
>> 
>>  And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to work 
>> together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are squashed 
>> rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?
>> 
>>  I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. But 
>> surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, most who 
>> do not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to make 
>> changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>>> On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the 
>>> necessity for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme 
>>> importance of keeping your commitment regarding the quality of excess 
>>> ability. I only meant that I didn't think they should have to know about 
>>> all the inns and outs. But they need to do is ensure that the final product 
>>> does what it should do. And the way they do that is by hiring and holding 
>>> accountable people who know what they're doing. I think the jury still is 
>>> out on whether they can do that. Google certainly doesn't do it. Microsoft, 
>>> there's a laugh. The problem with the little screen reader vendors is that 
>>> there well little. So they can't do it either. No model is perfect alas. 
>>> The big companies should be able to do it. They have the resources. Do they 
>>> have the will?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They 
 may not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and 
 importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
 products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his 
 engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products great, 
 then so can his underlings, past and future.
 
 As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, 
 that may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about 
 quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience 
 while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can 
 never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility company, but others 
 might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are 
 endorsing the view that we should merely be grateful for an inferior 
 alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want 
 and expect VoiceOver to be indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid 
 Windows screen readers, and fear that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver 
 puts it under unwelcome business pressures that adversely affect us, 
 particularly in recent times, and not just for an initial release either.  
 I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I did, it would only because 
 I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w
>> as untenable.
 
 --
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 "MacVisionaries" group.
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 email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and 

Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Not meaning to be rude, but if you think this bug compares to editting text 
with a BT  keyboard on Android, then I have some honest to god news for you. 
Editting with Android and a BT keyboard is phenominally disgusting! right 
now!


Write me off list if you want more detail, but I assure you, editting on I O 
S is way! way! better.


clgillan...@gmail.com

Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Devin Prater" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO


I know Apple can do well. I've seen it a lot in iOS. But we just have bugs 
upon bugs to deal with, and I'm just not sure what the quality control 
people do with accessibility. For example, right now there is a bug in iOS 
where if you use a bluetooth keyboard and arrow arround, and you hit a 
space, it won't say space at all. Sure, the smallest of bugs, but it still 
makes Apple look sloppy, just like Google. Google has had this problem with 
Docs for ages, but everywhere else Apple is wonderful, but they're starting 
to fail at accessibility.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
wrote:


I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They 
may not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and 
importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his 
engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products great, 
then so can his underlings, past and future.


As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, 
that may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about 
quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience 
while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can 
never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility company, but others 
might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are 
endorsing the view that we should merely be grateful for an inferior 
alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want 
and expect VoiceOver to be indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid 
Windows screen readers, and fear that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver 
puts it under unwelcome business pressures that adversely affect us, 
particularly in recent times, and not just for an initial release either. 
I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I did, it would only because 
I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy was untenable.


--
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Very true.  For example, Motorola makes the Nexus 6.

Asus made the 7 inch Nexus 7 tablet.

Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mary Otten" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO


Google does not make their Nexus phones and tablets. The contract that out 
to other companies.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 24, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Robin  wrote:

That's not "True" as (I Beleive) Google does Manufacture its Own (the 
Nexus) & Microsoft does with (Surface & Lumia & XBox)


Their TTS offerings may not be ToTheStandard of Apple's TTS (VoiceOver), 
but they are steadily making improvements along the road




On the OtherHand, Apple "appears" to be slipping InThisArea EvenThough 
they offer additionalFeatures, previous features are "slipping" in my view



I don't recall many VoiceOver "Bugs" with the release of 
iOS3-iOS4-etc., but with the Release of iOS8 many VoiceOver 
"Bugs" are steadily surfacing


Apple made "sure" NonVoiceOver "Bugs were not "present" IN iOS9's 
Release because they couldn't handle the PR (PublicRelations) if it 
weren't, but they could handle VoiceOver's Bugs


JustSayihng
At 10:29 AM 10/24/2015, you wrote:
  "Google does not do it. Microsoft is a laugh. And the screen reader 
vendors are little."


  This is because none of them build both the hardware and the software. 
Apple does both and quite well. Does that put them on an even higher 
level of responsibility? No. But we as the user who requires 
accessibility have the responsibility to keep Apple apprised of issues 
that impacts that accessibility. It does little good to pick them apart 
if we are not reporting bugs.


  And if we are reporting the bugs then might we not be far better to 
work together to seek work arounds until such a time when the bugs are 
squashed rather than engage in these endless circular bitchfests?


  I know nothing of what it takes to run a large corporation like Apple. 
But surely they have hundreds of departments, thousands of employees, 
most who do not have a clue what goes on next door. If any of you want to 
make changes, hire on as a liaison and good luck.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?


On 10/24/2015 10:09 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
For when ever it may be worth, I absolutely agree with you about the 
necessity for those with power and Apple to recognize the extreme 
importance of keeping your commitment regarding the quality of excess 
ability. I only meant that I didn't think they should have to know about 
all the inns and outs. But they need to do is ensure that the final 
product does what it should do. And the way they do that is by hiring 
and holding accountable people who know what they're doing. I think the 
jury still is out on whether they can do that. Google certainly doesn't 
do it. Microsoft, there's a laugh. The problem with the little screen 
reader vendors is that there well little. So they can't do it either. No 
model is perfect alas. The big companies should be able to do it. They 
have the resources. Do they have the will?

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:28 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
wrote:


I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility. 
They may not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency 
and importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the 
latest products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off 
to his engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple 
products great, then so can his underlings, past and future.


As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, 
that may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion 
about quality control.  We are the customers and we expect a great 
experience while using VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream 
company can never deliver the quality expected of an accessibility 
company, but others might not.  To these people, Apple’s offering is 
inferior and you are endorsing the view that we should merely be 
grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what we deserve.  I am 
one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, 
and fear that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under 
unwelcome business pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in 
recent times, and not just for an initial release either.  I would 
prefer not to move to Windows, but if I did, it would only because I 
finally accepted that Apple’s strategy w

as untenable.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Pete Nalda]

I've used Zoom in El Capitan all the time with no problem I could tell. 

Egun On, Lagunak! (basque for G'day, Mates
Louie P (Pete) Nalda
MySpace.com/musikonalda
Facebook.com/lpnalda
Linkedin.com/in/lpnalda
Twitter: @lpnalda

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:31 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Hello Chris,
> 
> I occasionally use the Zoom tool in OS X.  It's very nice and works very 
> well.  
> 
> I've considered purchasing ZoomText for the Mac but, as yet, see no need to 
> do so as the native 
> Zoom tool meets all of my needs.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Gilland
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 3:18 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO
> 
> You mention about them having other accessibility things than just Voiceover 
> to deal with.  I’m curious if anyone on this list happens to therefore use 
> Zoom either on OSX, or on I O S.  If so, I don’t have quite enough sight to 
> use it on either, but I’m wondering in general how well it works, and how 
> stable it is in El Capitan?  Which oh, my! I just noticed something.  In the 
> latest version that just came out, 10.11.1, Alex finally says Capitan 
> correctly.  Not really a major thing to be excited about, but still, it is 
> one thing fixed.
> 
> That’s awesome!
> 
> Chris.
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:45 PM, Daniel Miller  wrote:
>> 
>> I agree, Mary, hence why they have their own team of accessibility 
>> engineers, that *have* to work on 4 different operating systems, and work on 
>> not just Voiceover. It makes me sick how many people think VoiceOver is the 
>> only accessibility feature Apple has to work on at all times, so they expect 
>> features to be 100% bug free upon release. Apple will get to the issues when 
>> they get to them, so people just need to be patient, or report them every so 
>> often to get them bumped up in the priority list, or don’t let the door hit 
>> ya where the good lord split ya.
>> 
>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Brian,
>>> I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
>>> management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
>>> regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or 
>>> not the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't 
>>> really understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch 
>>> works, that really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
 
 Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. 
 Captain and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
 accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
 yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
 understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan 
 and VO I am not surprised.
> On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
> wrote:
> 
> My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El 
> Capitan, staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage 
> I’d say the El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  
> Responsiveness is a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for 
> sheer lack of choice and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it 
> every time I update.  But other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Chris Gilland]

You mention about them having other accessibility things than just Voiceover to 
deal with.  I’m curious if anyone on this list happens to therefore use Zoom 
either on OSX, or on I O S.  If so, I don’t have quite enough sight to use it 
on either, but I’m wondering in general how well it works, and how stable it is 
in El Capitan?  Which oh, my! I just noticed something.  In the latest version 
that just came out, 10.11.1, Alex finally says Capitan correctly.  Not really a 
major thing to be excited about, but still, it is one thing fixed.

That’s awesome!

Chris.

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:45 PM, Daniel Miller  wrote:
> 
> I agree, Mary, hence why they have their own team of accessibility engineers, 
> that *have* to work on 4 different operating systems, and work on not just 
> Voiceover. It makes me sick how many people think VoiceOver is the only 
> accessibility feature Apple has to work on at all times, so they expect 
> features to be 100% bug free upon release. Apple will get to the issues when 
> they get to them, so people just need to be patient, or report them every so 
> often to get them bumped up in the priority list, or don’t let the door hit 
> ya where the good lord split ya.
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Brian,
>> I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
>> management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
>> regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or 
>> not the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't 
>> really understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch 
>> works, that really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
>> Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. 
>>> Captain and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
>>> accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
>>> yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
>>> understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan 
>>> and VO I am not surprised.
 On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El 
 Capitan, staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage 
 I’d say the El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  
 Responsiveness is a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for 
 sheer lack of choice and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every 
 time I update.  But other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Notice though that El Capitan is not pronounced correctly on iOS 9.1, just 
released. :)

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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may not 
know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and importance.  
Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest products for his 
admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his engineers.  If Steve Jobs 
could understand what made Apple products great, then so can his underlings, 
past and future.

As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that may 
be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about quality 
control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience while using 
VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can never deliver the 
quality expected of an accessibility company, but others might not.  To these 
people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are endorsing the view that we 
should merely be grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what we 
deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear 
that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business 
pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not just 
for an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, but if I 
did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy was 
untenable.

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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Brian Fischler]

Very well put Sabahattin. Agreed with everything you said. Just because we use 
VO we should not be afraid to call Apple out on bugs especially when they keep 
getting worse and worse. Why should I feel I should have to settle for 
mediocrity with just because I am a VO user.I still feel Apple is doing it 
better than anyone, but there is definitely room for a lot of improvement.
> On Oct 24, 2015, at 2:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may 
> not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and 
> importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
> products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his 
> engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products great, 
> then so can his underlings, past and future.
> 
> As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that 
> may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about quality 
> control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience while using 
> VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can never deliver 
> the quality expected of an accessibility company, but others might not.  To 
> these people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are endorsing the view 
> that we should merely be grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what 
> we deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
> indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear 
> that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business 
> pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not 
> just for an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, 
> but if I did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy 
> was untenable.
> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Devin Prater]

I know Apple can do well. I've seen it a lot in iOS. But we just have bugs upon 
bugs to deal with, and I'm just not sure what the quality control people do 
with accessibility. For example, right now there is a bug in iOS where if you 
use a bluetooth keyboard and arrow arround, and you hit a space, it won't say 
space at all. Sure, the smallest of bugs, but it still makes Apple look sloppy, 
just like Google. Google has had this problem with Docs for ages, but 
everywhere else Apple is wonderful, but they're starting to fail at 
accessibility.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> I don’t agree that executives shouldn’t know about accessibility.  They may 
> not know the details, but they ought to understand the urgency and 
> importance.  Steve Jobs was once the CEO of Apple and he demoed the latest 
> products for his admiring audience; he didn’t palm the job off to his 
> engineers.  If Steve Jobs could understand what made Apple products great, 
> then so can his underlings, past and future.
> 
> As for the comment that VoiceOver is merely one part of accessibility, that 
> may be completely accurate, but it’s irrelevant to a discussion about quality 
> control.  We are the customers and we expect a great experience while using 
> VoiceOver.  Perhaps you accept that a mainstream company can never deliver 
> the quality expected of an accessibility company, but others might not.  To 
> these people, Apple’s offering is inferior and you are endorsing the view 
> that we should merely be grateful for an inferior alternative instead of what 
> we deserve.  I am one of these people.  I want and expect VoiceOver to be 
> indistinguishable in quality from fully-paid Windows screen readers, and fear 
> that Apple’s internalising of VoiceOver puts it under unwelcome business 
> pressures that adversely affect us, particularly in recent times, and not 
> just for an initial release either.  I would prefer not to move to Windows, 
> but if I did, it would only because I finally accepted that Apple’s strategy 
> was untenable.
> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[E.T.]

Brian,
   That was not called for. If you are sick of it, use the delete key.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/23/2015 9:39 PM, Brian Fischler wrote:

Daniel learn to read before typing. Did I say VO is the only thing about 
accessibility, no. I am so sick of you and your don’t let the Lord split ya, 
you are such an idiot. Yeah, I called you an idiot. Any time anyone says 
something you do not agree with you there you go saying don’t let the Good Lord 
split you. If you do not agree with something someone says just ignore it and 
keep your mouth shut. Now on to the intelligent comment from Mary. Mary I 
should have phrased better. I was not talking about Tim Cook not knowing about 
accessibility as I agree I would not expect him to know that much about 
accessibility. I was talking about developers at Apple as I found out that no 
one or very few individuals who do all the programming at Apple have an 
understanding of what accessibility is, and no I am not just talking solely 
about VO, as VO is only one part of accessibility. The conversation I was 
having with a person who has worked for Apple for awhile had to do with 
accessibility

including for the hearing impaired, mobility impaired, and more.

On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:45 PM, Daniel Miller  wrote:

I agree, Mary, hence why they have their own team of accessibility engineers, 
that *have* to work on 4 different operating systems, and work on not just 
Voiceover. It makes me sick how many people think VoiceOver is the only 
accessibility feature Apple has to work on at all times, so they expect 
features to be 100% bug free upon release. Apple will get to the issues when 
they get to them, so people just need to be patient, or report them every so 
often to get them bumped up in the priority list, or don’t let the door hit ya 
where the good lord split ya.


On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

Hi Brian,
I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or not 
the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't really 
understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch works, that 
really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:

Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. Captain 
and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan and VO 
I am not surprised.

On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:

My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El Capitan, 
staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage I’d say the El 
Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  Responsiveness is a 
definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for sheer lack of choice and 
find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every time I update.  But other 
than that, it’s a bit meh, really.

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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Brian Fischler]

Daniel learn to read before typing. Did I say VO is the only thing about 
accessibility, no. I am so sick of you and your don’t let the Lord split ya, 
you are such an idiot. Yeah, I called you an idiot. Any time anyone says 
something you do not agree with you there you go saying don’t let the Good Lord 
split you. If you do not agree with something someone says just ignore it and 
keep your mouth shut. Now on to the intelligent comment from Mary. Mary I 
should have phrased better. I was not talking about Tim Cook not knowing about 
accessibility as I agree I would not expect him to know that much about 
accessibility. I was talking about developers at Apple as I found out that no 
one or very few individuals who do all the programming at Apple have an 
understanding of what accessibility is, and no I am not just talking solely 
about VO, as VO is only one part of accessibility. The conversation I was 
having with a person who has worked for Apple for awhile had to do with 
accessibility including for the hearing impaired, mobility impaired, and more.
> On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:45 PM, Daniel Miller  wrote:
> 
> I agree, Mary, hence why they have their own team of accessibility engineers, 
> that *have* to work on 4 different operating systems, and work on not just 
> Voiceover. It makes me sick how many people think VoiceOver is the only 
> accessibility feature Apple has to work on at all times, so they expect 
> features to be 100% bug free upon release. Apple will get to the issues when 
> they get to them, so people just need to be patient, or report them every so 
> often to get them bumped up in the priority list, or don’t let the door hit 
> ya where the good lord split ya.
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Brian,
>> I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
>> management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
>> regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or 
>> not the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't 
>> really understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch 
>> works, that really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
>> Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. 
>>> Captain and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
>>> accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
>>> yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
>>> understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan 
>>> and VO I am not surprised.
 On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El 
 Capitan, staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage 
 I’d say the El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  
 Responsiveness is a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for 
 sheer lack of choice and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every 
 time I update.  But other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
 
 -- 
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Daniel Miller]

I agree, Mary, hence why they have their own team of accessibility engineers, 
that *have* to work on 4 different operating systems, and work on not just 
Voiceover. It makes me sick how many people think VoiceOver is the only 
accessibility feature Apple has to work on at all times, so they expect 
features to be 100% bug free upon release. Apple will get to the issues when 
they get to them, so people just need to be patient, or report them every so 
often to get them bumped up in the priority list, or don’t let the door hit ya 
where the good lord split ya.

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:21 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Hi Brian,
> I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
> management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
> regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or not 
> the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't 
> really understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch works, 
> that really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
> Mary
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. 
>> Captain and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
>> accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
>> yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
>> understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan and 
>> VO I am not surprised.
>>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El Capitan, 
>>> staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage I’d say the 
>>> El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  Responsiveness 
>>> is a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for sheer lack of 
>>> choice and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every time I update. 
>>>  But other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Brian Fischler]

Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. Captain 
and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan and VO 
I am not surprised.
> On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El Capitan, 
> staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage I’d say the 
> El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  Responsiveness is 
> a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for sheer lack of choice 
> and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every time I update.  But 
> other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
> 
> -- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Mary Otten]

Hi Brian,
I'm not sure what you meant by higher ups. But I wouldn't expect the top 
management at a company like Apple to have much of a clue about details 
regarding accessibility. The real issue is quality control and whether or not 
the people implementing excess ability have a clue. If Tim Cook doesn't really 
understand all that much about how voiceover or assistive touch works, that 
really is good. He doesn't need to know that kind of thing.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the heads up will be staying put on Yosemite for good now. Captain 
> and my experience was just awful real big step backwards as far as 
> accessibility. And I am not surprised as I met with someone from Apple 
> yesterday and was stunned to hear that none of the higher ups have a real 
> understanding of accessibility and with the lack of stability in Capitan and 
> VO I am not surprised.
>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
>> My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El Capitan, 
>> staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage I’d say the 
>> El Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  Responsiveness is 
>> a definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for sheer lack of choice 
>> and find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every time I update.  But 
>> other than that, it’s a bit meh, really.
>> 
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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

My opinion is that unless you have a specific reason to move to El Capitan, 
staying put will give you the better experience.  At this stage I’d say the El 
Capitan experience is merely tolerable, but not great.  Responsiveness is a 
definite plus, and I have come to endure iBooks for sheer lack of choice and 
find that I’m glad not to have to remove it every time I update.  But other 
than that, it’s a bit meh, really.

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Re: What's the word with the update for El Capitan and VO

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
The bug with text being cut off is slowly being squashed. For me, on my machine 
it happens but it doesn’t happen often anymore. It has been gradually better 
since the betas so i have full hope it will be totally fixed soon.
/Krister

> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 15:16 skrev Brian Fischler :
> 
> Have not seen a lot of traction about the El Capitan update that dropped 
> yesterday. Is anything fixed in safari? When you use your arrows to go from 
> link to link are the next links consistently read? Anyone having issues with 
> VO stability in safari as this was a major issue for me and I rolled back to 
> Yosemite, and my computer is running great since doing a Time Machine restore 
> back to Yosemite. Will not be running out to update, but curious if the 
> Capitan experience is now better.
> 
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