Re: a new macvisionaries list
Why not subscribe to the mac4theblind list. It's quite a low traffic list, so I'm sure that new members are most welcome to join. Just my input, for what's it's worth. On 26 Aug 2015, at 20:07, Anne Robertson a...@anarchie.org.uk wrote: Hello Tyler, Are you aware that there are several other lists for VoiceOver users? The one that comes to mind immediately is Mac-Access, which is a very quiet list and I know there are others. I agree with Jonathan that using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest and you should find your own list name. I’ve been on this list since very shortly after it was created in 2005, as have several others, and I have no intention of letting one person drive me away. I run my own VoiceOver list, but it wouldn’t interest you as it’s in French, but we’re a very lively community and politely moderated by a very able person. But we too have had our problems over the seven years. I hadn’t intended to say anything on this thread, but someone suggested that Cara was the original owner of this list, which is far from the truth. The original owner was Saqib Sheikh, but where he is now, I have no idea. Well, good luck with your new list, but please rename it. Cheers, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Good point There’s also the mac for the blind site that’s pretty low traffic but has a great signal to noise ratio and a very light moderation. I believe it’s mac4thebl...@freelists.org mailto:mac4thebl...@freelists.org On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Anne Robertson a...@anarchie.org.uk wrote: Hello Tyler, Are you aware that there are several other lists for VoiceOver users? The one that comes to mind immediately is Mac-Access, which is a very quiet list and I know there are others. I agree with Jonathan that using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest and you should find your own list name. I’ve been on this list since very shortly after it was created in 2005, as have several others, and I have no intention of letting one person drive me away. I run my own VoiceOver list, but it wouldn’t interest you as it’s in French, but we’re a very lively community and politely moderated by a very able person. But we too have had our problems over the seven years. I hadn’t intended to say anything on this thread, but someone suggested that Cara was the original owner of this list, which is far from the truth. The original owner was Saqib Sheikh, but where he is now, I have no idea. Well, good luck with your new list, but please rename it. Cheers, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I've set up mailman multiple times... It never used mysql. On 8/27/2015 3:48 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: I didn't say Mailman natively could be done from the CLI. You're correct, you do have to use other packages as well in combination to make this approach work, but it is! possible to do. It's honestly probably more trouble than it's worth, but there you have it, in a nutshell. I do acknowledge your concerns initially though. Chris. - Original Message - From: Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2015 12:25 AM Subject: Re: a new macvisionaries list You must be talking about a different Mailman, as on my site I get: No manual entry for mailman Mailman 2.x, at least, stores its data in Python pickles, not SQL databases. Although I know about a third-party command-line tool (called mailmanadmin) which does most moderation from the shell or cron, it’s still not as beauteous as the Ecartis approach of copy-pasting moderation commands into an email message and sending them off; you still need to connect to the remote machine and run the tool. Perhaps Mailman 3.x is different, but it’s still under development, so not for me. Anyway, to keep this relevant, Mailman is how this list started. Perhaps it would be a better place for it to end up. OS X can handle Mailman’s interface quite nicely using Safari and VoiceOver. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3xdNAAoJEAdP60+BYxejvgEH/3cGiNGr46DC0kRyGpw6Ntmj +54tgL3OFqEx97l8ivFQI0yuSQT7ADLN+foJ3o9/c1UeNNjDoF4rUJ2m5ogbKDvL wyUjCrPW/X+72AUeeO+V0hbQOuJ4fMFdeQ+3OXo7vNKJoNk4u8YXRLrL+Kezf3C6 UIJUT2KahoD9Fk9hXc1mFn120rsmcUu9MLqj+uS7vx9HPLC7kYTmonWrJbNYlogn 3AfNSRU50kbud3d8TuDkza1iCdiMqj8nk1IwWw4Np8l3KiBZ8Xj30/f4CFUwNEZA w9Z17GbGl1indLNjtiIC/WZWbFAvkn2Z5pw5DwRR0flZ7Rm/IYvSg8fAvIJuHEQ= =C4pN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
First off, nothing Chris says or could say offends me or for that matter nothing anyone says on any of these mailing lists offends me or would chase me away. Secondly, I’ve actually taken the time to talk to Chris off line and also seen a whole different side to his responses on another list where there was a lot of attacking going on so I have radically changed my opinion of him from when I first ran in to him some time ago. Does he push the boundaries and get out of line sometimes, sure but so do I and a lot of people. All moderation means to me is someone either can’t police themselves, they need to have their hand held and content managed for them and or someone has a power trip they need to feed and wants their own personal kingdom to rule over and dictate to everyone else what they will say or how they will act etc. No thank you. I’d rather have a little noise and exercise my delete finger than have someone else dictate content standards to me. So my answer to you is no. Anything Chris On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:59 PM, Yuma Decaux jamy...@gmail.com wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com mailto:scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I actually was curious about that myself, why not just tighten up on the rules concerning this list than spend time creating a new one? On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 It's pretty ridiculous that this thread is more than 100 messages long. On 8/27/2015 2:55 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: Hello: I'm a bit baffled by this response, because you're trying to make Chris sound like this reasonable guy who sometimes just might slip with the f-bomb. This is not the case. Less than a month ago I said something that bothered him. I woke up to 20+ emails at least cursing and ranting. There is no call for that. I'm also going to say I find it mildly amusing that this uproar is because of a specific person but also because how the list has devolved and he just kind of ignores that and moves on to trying to sound sensable again. I'm curious how much of his junk is getting blocked/how soon it will take him to devolve. But to make it clear, this isn't specifically for one person. I feel like I've said this 500 times. It's because the list was allowed to devolve and a majority of the community does not like that. I'm also calling an end to this endless debate on my behalf, no matter what I'll say you'll just scream You idiot just filter, and that's fine. Chocolate and vanilla, remember? On 8/27/2015 8:59 AM, Scott Granados wrote: First off, nothing Chris says or could say offends me or for that matter nothing anyone says on any of these mailing lists offends me or would chase me away. Secondly, I’ve actually taken the time to talk to Chris off line and also seen a whole different side to his responses on another list where there was a lot of attacking going on so I have radically changed my opinion of him from when I first ran in to him some time ago. Does he push the boundaries and get out of line sometimes, sure but so do I and a lot of people. All moderation means to me is someone either can’t police themselves, they need to have their hand held and content managed for them and or someone has a power trip they need to feed and wants their own personal kingdom to rule over and dictate to everyone else what they will say or how they will act etc. No thank you. I’d rather have a little noise and exercise my delete finger than have someone else dictate content standards to me. So my answer to you is no. Anything Chris On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:59 PM, Yuma Decaux jamy...@gmail.com mailto:jamy...@gmail.com wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com mailto:scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent
list name/for Jonathan was Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathan, I promised a last message on the last one and forgot I wanted to reply to this. I want to be totally honest here, I didn't really think about this slapping anyone in the face when it happened. When I started the list, my thought process was like this. Many unhappy community members, Macvisionaries abandoned for months, lets pick it up and not let it die. I considered macvisionaries 2.0, but I just went with what we all knew. I really was worried about stepping on a lot of toes. As this is a community, I'm going to ask the good folks over on the list what they'd like/prefer and we'll go from there. If they all want a new address with a new name, hopefully someone is more creative than I and that's what will happen. Thanks for bringing up this concern, I really appreciate it. As I've said a few times, I don't want to offend anyone. I've seen communities such as this die off with less issues and I don't want to see this one go. Thanks, On 8/26/2015 1:52 PM, Jonathan Mosen wrote: Hi Tyler and all. As someone who has participated in these sorts of forums for around 30 years, dating back to the FidoNet days, I generally have a policy of not fuelling the flames by making comments on the drama. I've also run many lists in my time, and like you, I don't agree that a totally hands-off approach works, especially because even if you filter the problem child, it can be difficult to filter the responses to the problem child. Then you get yourself into a situation where you spend so much time tweaking your filters, you may as well just unsubscribe, which I've been considering doing. When the person who is the source of at least 80% of the current problems resubscribed to this list, I thought the cycle would repeat itself, as I've seen it do on several occasions on this list. It goes like this, things start off OK, then the posts get increasingly inappropriate, then people object to his behaviour, then, finally, he throws a tantrum and unsubscribes, and we all get on with our lives. For whatever reason, the latter part of this sequence hasn't happened as quickly as it usually does. This list needs a moderator. It does not have one right now, it only has an owner. So congratulations to you for starting another list. It's a free world and anyone can start any list on any topic they choose, and people can make a decision to subscribe or not based on whether they think it will add value and is worthy of their time. I would seriously consider subscribing, but will not, for one important reason. I think using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest, inappropriate, and taking advantage of years of effort on the part of others. I am not in any way suggesting that you are a dishonest person. I am merely referring to this particular action. MacVisionaries is a strong brand. It's a rapidly deteriorating one, but it has helped many people. Just because you want to start a new list, doesn't mean this one is going away any time soon. When people use a search engine to find MacVisionaries, and get two lists, how are they supposed to differentiate? If your list is going to be well-moderated, and there will be people actively ensuring it adds value to those contributing, why would you want to be associated with a brand that, presently, is in trouble? I would strongly urge you, as a sign of respect for all this current list has given to the community, and more to the point, the individuals who created this list, to do the right thing and think of a name of your own. All the best with it, whatever you decide to do. Jonathan Mosen Mosen Consulting Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training http://Mosen.org http://mosen.org On 27/08/2015, at 5:15 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This was the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I do want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on her door. thanks, On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: I'm a bit baffled by this response, because you're trying to make Chris sound like this reasonable guy who sometimes just might slip with the f-bomb. This is not the case. Less than a month ago I said something that bothered him. I woke up to 20+ emails at least cursing and ranting. There is no call for that. I'm also going to say I find it mildly amusing that this uproar is because of a specific person but also because how the list has devolved and he just kind of ignores that and moves on to trying to sound sensable again. I'm curious how much of his junk is getting blocked/how soon it will take him to devolve. But to make it clear, this isn't specifically for one person. I feel like I've said this 500 times. It's because the list was allowed to devolve and a majority of the community does not like that. I'm also calling an end to this endless debate on my behalf, no matter what I'll say you'll just scream You idiot just filter, and that's fine. Chocolate and vanilla, remember? On 8/27/2015 8:59 AM, Scott Granados wrote: First off, nothing Chris says or could say offends me or for that matter nothing anyone says on any of these mailing lists offends me or would chase me away. Secondly, I’ve actually taken the time to talk to Chris off line and also seen a whole different side to his responses on another list where there was a lot of attacking going on so I have radically changed my opinion of him from when I first ran in to him some time ago. Does he push the boundaries and get out of line sometimes, sure but so do I and a lot of people. All moderation means to me is someone either can’t police themselves, they need to have their hand held and content managed for them and or someone has a power trip they need to feed and wants their own personal kingdom to rule over and dictate to everyone else what they will say or how they will act etc. No thank you. I’d rather have a little noise and exercise my delete finger than have someone else dictate content standards to me. So my answer to you is no. Anything Chris On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:59 PM, Yuma Decaux jamy...@gmail.com mailto:jamy...@gmail.com wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com mailto:scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Because we and Chris’s ISP is in a free country. We do not legislate speech here. Our founders created the first amendment to support freedom of expression and the press. They made this the first amendment because it was to them the most important freedom that needed to be codified. Hate speech is protected speech. Nazi’s marching in Illinois and all that. It’s been protected and the courts have upheld this protection for decades if not centuries now. There are no authorities to call. Carriers aren’t going to pull access unless a direct real threat was made or some sort of crime like publishing child pornography which is definitely not protected speech is committed. This is not the case in other countries but Chris is a US citizen and protected by the constitution. Note this only applies to the carriers, especially carriers that receive government money and or have common carrier status etc. Mailing list moderators and such can do what they want and ban whom ever they wish because protected speech is only protected from government limitation rather than private individuals. Individuals can dictate what ever standards they wish on their own property of which a mailing list could be equated to their property. On Aug 26, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Karen Lewellen klewel...@shellworld.net wrote: well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report them to the authorities. One does not well build a new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider? On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I didn't say Mailman natively could be done from the CLI. You're correct, you do have to use other packages as well in combination to make this approach work, but it is! possible to do. It's honestly probably more trouble than it's worth, but there you have it, in a nutshell. I do acknowledge your concerns initially though. Chris. - Original Message - From: Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2015 12:25 AM Subject: Re: a new macvisionaries list You must be talking about a different Mailman, as on my site I get: No manual entry for mailman Mailman 2.x, at least, stores its data in Python pickles, not SQL databases. Although I know about a third-party command-line tool (called mailmanadmin) which does most moderation from the shell or cron, it’s still not as beauteous as the Ecartis approach of copy-pasting moderation commands into an email message and sending them off; you still need to connect to the remote machine and run the tool. Perhaps Mailman 3.x is different, but it’s still under development, so not for me. Anyway, to keep this relevant, Mailman is how this list started. Perhaps it would be a better place for it to end up. OS X can handle Mailman’s interface quite nicely using Safari and VoiceOver. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Quick Mod note - A number of quick Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hi All, I just want to send this quick note along first, to thank those of you who have offered their support to me and those I love. this truly means a lot to me and please know that this is not something I take lightly nor will forget. So thank you! Now, on to some quick list business; Firstly, tyler, my apologies, but I have not seen a single private message from you over the last months. So I was not aware that you were offering to assist with list moderation or that you were upset with this list. I apparently seem to be having some email issues (which have been going on now for months) so I have occasionally missed important notes. I apologize for this but do not (as yet) know why this is happening. Secondly, To those who have suggested that there be another mod, there actually has been someone already, who is helping out. -And, I am also looking at others right now as well. To the poster who has alluded to my letting the list go, I am not actually clear on what you mean by this. As you already know, I have not been able to keep up with these last threads, but I will not delete any of these messages until I can give them the attention they deserve. So I will address this when I can, as I said yesterday. Also, thank you to the poster who mentioned the original list ownership. Unlike VIPhone, (which I started) I was fortunate enough to inherit ownership of this list from Saqib Sheikh, who did an amazing job starting this community. Despite the issues sometimes, I am very grateful for the chance to help keep this community going. So again, please know that I do not take any of this lightly. Lastly, for the moment, can we please move on from this and get back to the informational discussions concerning the Mac / Apple products? Please close the topics which are advertising other mailing lists and / or justifying opinions of one or the other poster etc? Please understand, I ask this simply to bring better focus since this is what many of you seem to be asking for. Personally, I like wide and varied discussion as long as it is respectful. If we need more focus though, then it is better to apply all these current energies to that, rather than simply trying to justify one opinion over another. As I mentioned yesterday, please just use your own good judgement and this will be fine. Hope this makes sense and I thank you once again for your understanding. I will check in again as soon as I can. Cheers! Cara --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Aug 27, 2015, at 8:00 AM, Shaf shafpa...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 It's pretty ridiculous that this thread is more than 100 messages long. On 8/27/2015 2:55 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: Hello: I'm a bit baffled by this response, because you're trying to make Chris sound like this reasonable guy who sometimes just might slip with the f-bomb. This is not the case. Less than a month ago I said something that bothered him. I woke up to 20+ emails at least cursing and ranting. There is no call for that. I'm also going to say I find it mildly amusing that this uproar is because of a specific person but also because how the list has devolved and he just kind of ignores that and moves on to trying to sound sensable again. I'm curious how much of his junk is getting blocked/how soon it will take him to devolve. But to make it clear, this isn't specifically for one person. I feel like I've said this 500 times. It's because the list was allowed to devolve and a majority of the community does not like that. I'm also calling an end to this endless debate on my behalf, no matter what I'll say you'll just scream You idiot just filter, and that's fine. Chocolate and vanilla, remember? On 8/27/2015 8:59 AM, Scott Granados wrote: First off, nothing Chris says or could say offends me or for that matter nothing anyone says on any of these mailing lists offends me or would chase me away. Secondly, I’ve actually taken the time to talk to Chris off line and also seen a whole different side to his responses on another list where there was a lot of attacking going on so I have radically changed my opinion of him from when I first ran in to him some time ago. Does he push the boundaries and get out of line sometimes, sure but so do I and a lot of people. All moderation means to me is someone either can’t police themselves, they need to have their hand held and content managed for them and or someone has a power trip they need to feed and wants their own personal kingdom to rule over and dictate to everyone else what they will say or how they will act etc. No thank you. I’d rather have a little noise and exercise my delete finger than have someone else dictate content standards to me. So my answer to you is no.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Only the list owner can add new moderators. From E.T.'s Keyboard... ancient.ali...@icloud.com Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were true? On 8/26/2015 9:29 AM, Mary Otten wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're ou t or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6zKf2efooQA+lt30t+s2oS4Erq2LwEry FpNGk7tdfni7Q1NIIf/gElZGVpefNS39oHz7+2WIB9i01gDDo9K4F0+isvElXKsv 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimqwKCV2wUXuaLIqTt9Bu Irs2hS7GSJafhCJGajNaIGsge53p8Tun6kjsAqIS3EvfDONrbmk9a0q5AsisKeQ= =dU2/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hi Tyler and all. As someone who has participated in these sorts of forums for around 30 years, dating back to the FidoNet days, I generally have a policy of not fuelling the flames by making comments on the drama. I've also run many lists in my time, and like you, I don't agree that a totally hands-off approach works, especially because even if you filter the problem child, it can be difficult to filter the responses to the problem child. Then you get yourself into a situation where you spend so much time tweaking your filters, you may as well just unsubscribe, which I've been considering doing. When the person who is the source of at least 80% of the current problems resubscribed to this list, I thought the cycle would repeat itself, as I've seen it do on several occasions on this list. It goes like this, things start off OK, then the posts get increasingly inappropriate, then people object to his behaviour, then, finally, he throws a tantrum and unsubscribes, and we all get on with our lives. For whatever reason, the latter part of this sequence hasn't happened as quickly as it usually does. This list needs a moderator. It does not have one right now, it only has an owner. So congratulations to you for starting another list. It's a free world and anyone can start any list on any topic they choose, and people can make a decision to subscribe or not based on whether they think it will add value and is worthy of their time. I would seriously consider subscribing, but will not, for one important reason. I think using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest, inappropriate, and taking advantage of years of effort on the part of others. I am not in any way suggesting that you are a dishonest person. I am merely referring to this particular action. MacVisionaries is a strong brand. It's a rapidly deteriorating one, but it has helped many people. Just because you want to start a new list, doesn't mean this one is going away any time soon. When people use a search engine to find MacVisionaries, and get two lists, how are they supposed to differentiate? If your list is going to be well-moderated, and there will be people actively ensuring it adds value to those contributing, why would you want to be associated with a brand that, presently, is in trouble? I would strongly urge you, as a sign of respect for all this current list has given to the community, and more to the point, the individuals who created this list, to do the right thing and think of a name of your own. All the best with it, whatever you decide to do. Jonathan Mosen Mosen Consulting Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training http://Mosen.org On 27/08/2015, at 5:15 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This was the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I do want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on her door. thanks, On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hello Tyler, Are you aware that there are several other lists for VoiceOver users? The one that comes to mind immediately is Mac-Access, which is a very quiet list and I know there are others. I agree with Jonathan that using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest and you should find your own list name. I’ve been on this list since very shortly after it was created in 2005, as have several others, and I have no intention of letting one person drive me away. I run my own VoiceOver list, but it wouldn’t interest you as it’s in French, but we’re a very lively community and politely moderated by a very able person. But we too have had our problems over the seven years. I hadn’t intended to say anything on this thread, but someone suggested that Cara was the original owner of this list, which is far from the truth. The original owner was Saqib Sheikh, but where he is now, I have no idea. Well, good luck with your new list, but please rename it. Cheers, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Last he checked in with me, Saqib was still working at Microsoft. I too was around at the very beginning, but I’ve been on and off since. Of course, many of you will know that Cara very graciously took up the reins and has made her presence felt since that time, until she slipped into the shadows. I also had some amount of contact with Cara outside this list for her excellent work on AGRIP, but real life commitments meant we weren’t keeping in touch. You’ll probably also know that she was featuring on many Maccessibility roundtable discussions, and that she was co-host or moderator for other lists including audyssey. I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been very glad for and also very annoyed by the behaviour of the list and moderation over that time, but since I’m ultimately back here, I have to suppose that it’s worked out in the end. I do hope whatever comes of all this doesn’t destroy this excellent resource. Even if I don’t stick around, it’s been a blast. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6zKf2efooQA+lt30t+s2oS4Erq2LwEry FpNGk7tdfni7Q1NIIf/gElZGVpefNS39oHz7+2WIB9i01gDDo9K4F0+isvElXKsv 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimqwKCV2wUXuaLIqTt9Bu Irs2hS7GSJafhCJGajNaIGsge53p8Tun6kjsAqIS3EvfDONrbmk9a0q5AsisKeQ= =dU2/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hello: I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This was the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I do want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on her door. thanks, On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6zKf2efooQA+lt30t+s2oS4Erq2LwEry FpNGk7tdfni7Q1NIIf/gElZGVpefNS39oHz7+2WIB9i01gDDo9K4F0+isvElXKsv 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimqwKCV2wUXuaLIqTt9Bu
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com http://tysdomain.com/ pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I like your solution. People who want a little oversight can take that option and people who don’t are able to stay as is. Couldn’t be much more fair than that. I’d say to the folks concerned about fragmentation that happy users on the list even if fragments of the former list are probably better than a large list of constant complaints mixed in with some content. I also like the fact in your specific case you’ve taken a lot of pains to stress how light touched your moderation style is which seems reasonable. My pushback was mainly geared towards people wanting to bring back the original moderator or concerned with what she had to say. I think at this stage nobody cares and nobody wants to go back to that time period of overreaching power grabbing that was the moderation of the list before. Also I’m not a fan of moderation but as I said I’m only qualified to speak for me and barely qualified at that.:) Others may feel differently and that’s a good thing. On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:15 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This was the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I do want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on her door. thanks, On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but,
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem with this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, although, I read some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are not only helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same level of knowledge, but one thing we all have in common, all of us were once beginners! On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen klewel...@shellworld.net wrote: well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report them to the authorities. One does not well build a new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider? On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I just laugh at the person when he writes the messages which people don't like. I don't care what he says. He does not worry me. I laugh and then I delete. On 26 Aug 2015, at 10:48 pm, Rich Ring richr...@gmail.com wrote: I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem with this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, although, I read some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are not only helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same level of knowledge, but one thing we all have in common, all of us were once beginners! On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen klewel...@shellworld.net wrote: well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report them to the authorities. One does not well build a new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider? On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point
Re: a new macvisionaries list
well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report them to the authorities. One does not well build a new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider? On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let???s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It???s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don???t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don???t want to invite someone in to your home then don???t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don???t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don???t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I???m not sure moderation = good community. That???s like saying policing = a good community and I???d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I???m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it???s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there???s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away ???that???s why they make chocolate and vanilla??? something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3aZXAAoJEAdP60+BYxejHOMH/2qWbhKCwVZi1KQoI02Na46t nJofuagNbptc/TpF+1Et6mRxxCB6stG/buDdCVaRT/4FwrN6nSYdoD5Yvh4Hw6zN SUXSkE7eoV4KYQW5zHP7H2FdiNFaatwayHuNeXhAOznnH/KGQ+OOkTISMGaIDOYY XICeh+2LOATOsLmDchWQRQPIQFGmiKKnAliJyPGLIFicgcvXXv1Ul2cH9CIE/rTa U+ow5L/UAqI+NqwtIiW/QT3K3/lc1cFjitSUvz2VRrmq/u7Q1bA55pPQaFX4ejVg PE6MA/QBa3rf6U7sIkiO7jLg4Lwo2lgMWtSqsg2lcXovYs+MGRlT8h8gg/WyM5g= =ViCf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hi all, As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from someone's hacked account. It does seem to me that this list has had more problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and enforcing them would benefit this list. that said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it disintegrate. Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and start a new one. Just a thought. Best, Donna On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ xt+2FiNg0FnfdBhvfRXnbrABxF+A6F+y1rUjU04osO3zS/CTZvAeSQjKQfHBd2Zq 6bjl5I9v4KiqeHl5A+XtlNNOLfE2cDwu5KYobCECI/pbngOITXWUJKyibaf6wAtr IVquETQOHLc+k1TcZasczdNcYTflC/3f6u4/zveReYP/+aiuZsR+E6wtNlrQA3bB UGR7BltI2lLJmVO/GTz2z//K1BOBowDewEVDKqGmXCjLjrKfQJUzfp1daT4tnkFx Ug8JQgdwjcVX8UgOR0g5JBBaSdsiBgQgYINTeGi1dmbXNEhJXIiB2DR84FRxuHY= =W2wW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Great! i will be joining today! just because this list used to be good in the past doesn’t mean we have to stay and hope, maybe someday, things get better. there are so many other relevent other lists around where i won’t have to delete so many posts every day. and, yes, we do need police. anarchy will never fly, neither here or in the USA. or anywhere else for that matter. folks can not and will not ever police themselves. Vivianna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Indeed, she seems to be alive and well on the viPhone list, but we live overshadowed by a corpse on this one. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: OK, so I'm going to address the elephant in the room to which you eluded. Cara, if you're out there, you either need to mod the list yourself, or let it go! Cara is like a ghost on this list. Nobody wants to step on her toes. She is part of our problem. From what i can tell, she seems to want to retain some sort of ownership of the list, but then not do anything with it. that's sort of like buying a house and then just letting it fall into ruin. If we're all willing to let this list dissolve because of Cara's bad judgment, then maybe a new list is a better plan, as that seems to be the one way we can all get out from under her. Please understand I barely know Cara, and have no personal grudge against her. But her handling of this situation has been very bad. Best, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6zKf2efooQA+lt30t+s2oS4Erq2LwEry FpNGk7tdfni7Q1NIIf/gElZGVpefNS39oHz7+2WIB9i01gDDo9K4F0+isvElXKsv 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimqwKCV2wUXuaLIqTt9Bu Irs2hS7GSJafhCJGajNaIGsge53p8Tun6kjsAqIS3EvfDONrbmk9a0q5AsisKeQ= =dU2/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Indeed, having an active moderator on this list would be the ideal solution. As others have said, this list already has a critical mass, and is one of the standard places many people are pointed to when seeking help with VoiceOver on the Mac. Cara popped up recently, so she's around. If Tyler could contact her and get himself appointed as a moderator, that would be perfect. On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:03 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: Hi all, As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from someone's hacked account. It does seem to me that this list has had more problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and enforcing them would benefit this list. that said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it disintegrate. Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and start a new one. Just a thought. Best, Donna On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ xt+2FiNg0FnfdBhvfRXnbrABxF+A6F+y1rUjU04osO3zS/CTZvAeSQjKQfHBd2Zq 6bjl5I9v4KiqeHl5A+XtlNNOLfE2cDwu5KYobCECI/pbngOITXWUJKyibaf6wAtr IVquETQOHLc+k1TcZasczdNcYTflC/3f6u4/zveReYP/+aiuZsR+E6wtNlrQA3bB UGR7BltI2lLJmVO/GTz2z//K1BOBowDewEVDKqGmXCjLjrKfQJUzfp1daT4tnkFx Ug8JQgdwjcVX8UgOR0g5JBBaSdsiBgQgYINTeGi1dmbXNEhJXIiB2DR84FRxuHY= =W2wW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Have a great day, Alex Hall mehg...@icloud.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I'm good with that, lol. You? A Brain-to-mouth filter problem? I can't imagine! :) Take care, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:20 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: Or here’s a counter idea, just create a rule that sends the offender to the bit bucket automatically. Removes the slog and the offender at the same time.:) I use rules all the time not just for filtering out the undesirables but also to filter things like monitoring tool output in to a folder for each customer or RFQs in a folder etc. As I said though I know there are a lot of ways to get from here to there. I’m only qualified and barely at that to speak for myself so this is how I’d address the problem but moderation is another very valid way to go. I was just pointing out the alternative but I definitely support and wish the original poster success and will probably join although I don’t want to stir up his list so I may not only because I have a brain to mouth filter problem.:) On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Pam, I'll try to answer your questions. the new list does have a digest mode, which you can set if you sign up through the website. The second part of your email (or first, really) is more the reason why I created the list. Right now, anyone can do pretty much anything with no backlash from administration. This solves this problem. We can rework the rules as necessary (what's there is a pretty good start) and those can be enforced. I don't plan on just vanishing on you fine folks to leave you to deal with the problems by yourself. I will also be appointing a moderator at some point soon to help deal with it, should I happen to get hit by a bus or get sick. Thanks, On 8/26/2015 5:53 AM, Pamela Francis wrote: Hello, I have a list question. First, as helpful as this list has been through the years, there are times it does disintegrate into childish arguments. How is creating another list going to alleviate that issue?Second, does this list have a digest mowed therefore cutting down on the traffic? I belong to a testing group. I have to be able to keep up with those emails as well as whatever comes from any other list I follow. Not really sure that I want to leave it, given the fact there are so very many helpful people here. However I have to be able to minimize the traffic in order to keep up with the testing emails I need get. Thanks in advance. Pam Francis On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3abeAAoJEAdP60+BYxejJLwH/1kg6jDbPJsceryE5prK3mXl uylp9iUBVu+ufEIvwZEHte5rcO5Zr2DxIY3vnzSLT7MaUoynap/BSXA6wrg5dUW9 V8Z8DDRPSh9YgH3FVWhqgQVNlYaLM2LpuSaU5FBQrQLgv4aqiOMYZXdNDBtKHk3P L8x+owVWLHoEy087KxPoenWnv1nelJpm/1Q2fqj7a6X2Sx5FPZp5Z5KZnfb2pcv5 Gtz4ZEDj5BnMyR6MDed0GPrpbHSmPsoM1QoZ7WfLhg+tT7OvQ+nUt7h0IFpG+a59 8LY9dwOEd/61bBfTT4HXsU7PPNILXQDNDTvVm/vs+8QMoLXiN7+bTGNo5VMJ278= =/3Nx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6zKf2efooQA+lt30t+s2oS4Erq2LwEry FpNGk7tdfni7Q1NIIf/gElZGVpefNS39oHz7+2WIB9i01gDDo9K4F0+isvElXKsv 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimqwKCV2wUXuaLIqTt9Bu Irs2hS7GSJafhCJGajNaIGsge53p8Tun6kjsAqIS3EvfDONrbmk9a0q5AsisKeQ= =dU2/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Or here’s a counter idea, just create a rule that sends the offender to the bit bucket automatically. Removes the slog and the offender at the same time.:) I use rules all the time not just for filtering out the undesirables but also to filter things like monitoring tool output in to a folder for each customer or RFQs in a folder etc. As I said though I know there are a lot of ways to get from here to there. I’m only qualified and barely at that to speak for myself so this is how I’d address the problem but moderation is another very valid way to go. I was just pointing out the alternative but I definitely support and wish the original poster success and will probably join although I don’t want to stir up his list so I may not only because I have a brain to mouth filter problem.:) On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 13:43: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some action? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
OK, so I'm going to address the elephant in the room to which you eluded. Cara, if you're out there, you either need to mod the list yourself, or let it go! Cara is like a ghost on this list. Nobody wants to step on her toes. She is part of our problem. From what i can tell, she seems to want to retain some sort of ownership of the list, but then not do anything with it. that's sort of like buying a house and then just letting it fall into ruin. If we're all willing to let this list dissolve because of Cara's bad judgment, then maybe a new list is a better plan, as that seems to be the one way we can all get out from under her. Please understand I barely know Cara, and have no personal grudge against her. But her handling of this situation has been very bad. Best, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on
Re: a new macvisionaries list
The only input I have hear is that I think the name of the new list should be changed to something other than Mac Visionaries. This is going to potentially cause a lot of confusion. If a new list is to be created, then why not start with a clean slate and give the new list a new name? Take care and have a great day. Jamie Pauls jamiepa...@gmail.com On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Having a second Macvisionaries floating around may indeed prove confusing. I'll also say this: good luck with Freelists! I used them when I helped to moderate a BrailleNote list, and had no end of problems. Delayed delivery, random bounce problems and auto-moderated users, total failure of a reg exp filter to do anything at all, problems on some email clients where message subjects would get cut off, and more. Hopefully they've addressed these issues by now. On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 this is me baiscally branching off, so you have to take action: subscribing to the list. Here's the info from my first message if it helps. It's worth saying here that neither of the moderators know about this--I can't even get a response from Cara, so this in no way reflects the current list. I'm just trying to do something nice and help a good community. You all do the rest by building the community, providing questions and answers and making the list a general good place to be. Here's the subscription info: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries On 8/26/2015 8:20 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 13:43: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some action? - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3bF7AAoJEAdP60+BYxej7sMH/j526MGmBff4fj9k0o7uO25E OC3RrK7HhquGbxhd34F+kqj45P7MG2WcnWysvI252B8jxYcmjzYyAXu5k3qn54XB ZoJFWkAgteBzPTPXqZ4wYJKBCPGCDnNyUf227Mb9amSTb/HbPNELPELQvevWG8+W vI5VRmpAxWwaRi/o37Ndrj7/HYK0c1PRzRfxEnuUG1MQDJRIVuF/tJeNFuWLYgwm NO2KiidAoEUumdV7pEN51mzFJa6ROW9zqqDgcDdAUf5MIz/1ubtlKN22d2l3o0CE iGy/39qAh9DiTTm2D+ysxMseo4l7Ia21JWVoIggl9hAEgzXkXU1iIV3JA4vf6ug= =4Yl9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Have a great day, Alex Hall mehg...@icloud.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Viviana, you’re wrong. I actually live in a community that doesn’t have 24 hour policing. I moved there intentionally, that was a huge selling point. There are massive swaths of country that don’t have policing available. Whether it’s the woods like where I live or the Swamps in the south or mountains on the way west there are huge blocks of people living with very little policing. The safest period in US history was the western expansion during the 1800S. The government actually supported and paid authors to come up with these wild west novels as propaganda to make people want to be controlled by police goons instead of living free like they had been successfully. It’s one of the periods with the least crime in our history and the greatest level of growth. This however is better meant for another list but I couldn’t let a comment like that slide with out countering. On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Vivianna irish...@gmail.com wrote: Great! i will be joining today! just because this list used to be good in the past doesn’t mean we have to stay and hope, maybe someday, things get better. there are so many other relevent other lists around where i won’t have to delete so many posts every day. and, yes, we do need police. anarchy will never fly, neither here or in the USA. or anywhere else for that matter. folks can not and will not ever police themselves. Vivianna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3aZXAAoJEAdP60+BYxejHOMH/2qWbhKCwVZi1KQoI02Na46t nJofuagNbptc/TpF+1Et6mRxxCB6stG/buDdCVaRT/4FwrN6nSYdoD5Yvh4Hw6zN SUXSkE7eoV4KYQW5zHP7H2FdiNFaatwayHuNeXhAOznnH/KGQ+OOkTISMGaIDOYY XICeh+2LOATOsLmDchWQRQPIQFGmiKKnAliJyPGLIFicgcvXXv1Ul2cH9CIE/rTa U+ow5L/UAqI+NqwtIiW/QT3K3/lc1cFjitSUvz2VRrmq/u7Q1bA55pPQaFX4ejVg PE6MA/QBa3rf6U7sIkiO7jLg4Lwo2lgMWtSqsg2lcXovYs+MGRlT8h8gg/WyM5g= =ViCf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello, I just wanted to reply to this with my thinking. I think each list is somewhat a community in that people read the messages every morning or whenever they can, reply and get something out of it. You give and take when you have questions is the way I see this working out. Much like a community, sometimes there are certain people who just want to make the experience bad for everyone involved. Right now this occurs pretty much unchecked. There is a good balance here: not overly moderating verses stepping in when things get messy. I think that it's pretty easy to forget there's someone on the other side of your message when we write. I don't plan on dropping the banhammer on the first person to ever step over the line, I just want to try to help control and regulate so that the people that are currently getting responded to with curses and fowel language don't have to be, because that does not really foster a good community. the only reason currently this list is like this is because there is not anyone willing to step in and moderate. We usually go from one extreme to the other: someone is usually overly tyrannical in moderation, or they just don't moderate altogether, thus leaving us to decay until the return. I hope this explains my purpose better. Please feel free to let me know if you have questions. Thanks, On 8/26/2015 7:45 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: Hello Pam, I'll try to answer your questions. the new list does have a digest mode, which you can set if you sign up through the website. The second part of your email (or first, really) is more the reason why I created the list. Right now, anyone can do pretty much anything with no backlash from administration. This solves this problem. We can rework the rules as necessary (what's there is a pretty good start) and those can be enforced. I don't plan on just vanishing on you fine folks to leave you to deal with the problems by yourself. I will also be appointing a moderator at some point soon to help deal with it, should I happen to get hit by a bus or get sick. Thanks, On 8/26/2015 5:53 AM, Pamela Francis wrote: Hello, I have a list question. First, as helpful as this list has been through the years, there are times it does disintegrate into childish arguments. How is creating another list going to alleviate that issue?Second, does this list have a digest mowed therefore cutting down on the traffic? I belong to a testing group. I have to be able to keep up with those emails as well as whatever comes from any other list I follow. Not really sure that I want to leave it, given the fact there are so very many helpful people here. However I have to be able to minimize the traffic in order to keep up with the testing emails I need get. Thanks in advance. Pam Francis On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3aiqAAoJEAdP60+BYxejX0sH/jQDs/w7B56VT5P8td0yjYOv 0W67hcGqW8gq6AW8vn6av+HlHintlMV5DHzXRlsq1wU2GL07tSHGvI9gLmbnrrLd 3ws22YFdUlIWwQJ45t7Wn7HBzA2RC+x8WXZv/cz2UGYfXY9eRF7eTGKDp9lD/wGS UNJYjfonnvGKj0YsDa/r5eiPkRstegL5TLuP4Ko0M2FUIl86OuilONqRMapyVQ0R wCeInz7zFR/xP+oin0GT/8bn3j48QnhJj4Rg6WVRW3nuyVbeIUJdvB6Erhb+Z3TF o8VcOPqGmW+2xVayhjvUFi0VYHtvPyN5Pfe42dCFuQzLUy6EIZJe5JbA+Xu3QBw= =RZLl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
Re: a new macvisionaries list
See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6zKf2efooQA+lt30t+s2oS4Erq2LwEry FpNGk7tdfni7Q1NIIf/gElZGVpefNS39oHz7+2WIB9i01gDDo9K4F0+isvElXKsv 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimqwKCV2wUXuaLIqTt9Bu Irs2hS7GSJafhCJGajNaIGsge53p8Tun6kjsAqIS3EvfDONrbmk9a0q5AsisKeQ= =dU2/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 this is me baiscally branching off, so you have to take action: subscribing to the list. Here's the info from my first message if it helps. It's worth saying here that neither of the moderators know about this--I can't even get a response from Cara, so this in no way reflects the current list. I'm just trying to do something nice and help a good community. You all do the rest by building the community, providing questions and answers and making the list a general good place to be. Here's the subscription info: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries On 8/26/2015 8:20 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 13:43: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some action? - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3bF7AAoJEAdP60+BYxej7sMH/j526MGmBff4fj9k0o7uO25E OC3RrK7HhquGbxhd34F+kqj45P7MG2WcnWysvI252B8jxYcmjzYyAXu5k3qn54XB ZoJFWkAgteBzPTPXqZ4wYJKBCPGCDnNyUf227Mb9amSTb/HbPNELPELQvevWG8+W vI5VRmpAxWwaRi/o37Ndrj7/HYK0c1PRzRfxEnuUG1MQDJRIVuF/tJeNFuWLYgwm NO2KiidAoEUumdV7pEN51mzFJa6ROW9zqqDgcDdAUf5MIz/1ubtlKN22d2l3o0CE iGy/39qAh9DiTTm2D+ysxMseo4l7Ia21JWVoIggl9hAEgzXkXU1iIV3JA4vf6ug= =4Yl9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Oh no you Dit Int! ;) On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: OK, so I'm going to address the elephant in the room to which you eluded. Cara, if you're out there, you either need to mod the list yourself, or let it go! Cara is like a ghost on this list. Nobody wants to step on her toes. She is part of our problem. From what i can tell, she seems to want to retain some sort of ownership of the list, but then not do anything with it. that's sort of like buying a house and then just letting it fall into ruin. If we're all willing to let this list dissolve because of Cara's bad judgment, then maybe a new list is a better plan, as that seems to be the one way we can all get out from under her. Please understand I barely know Cara, and have no personal grudge against her. But her handling of this situation has been very bad. Best, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM,
Re: a new macvisionaries list
I wish there was a tutorial on how to use rules. Not a podcast though, those are often too long with 10 minutes of explanation on what the podcast is about, when people already know what they chose to listen to. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:20 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: Or here’s a counter idea, just create a rule that sends the offender to the bit bucket automatically. Removes the slog and the offender at the same time.:) I use rules all the time not just for filtering out the undesirables but also to filter things like monitoring tool output in to a folder for each customer or RFQs in a folder etc. As I said though I know there are a lot of ways to get from here to there. I’m only qualified and barely at that to speak for myself so this is how I’d address the problem but moderation is another very valid way to go. I was just pointing out the alternative but I definitely support and wish the original poster success and will probably join although I don’t want to stir up his list so I may not only because I have a brain to mouth filter problem.:) On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin doniado...@me.com wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
Re: a new macvisionaries list
It does say a lot that the list is in the generally healthy state it’s in now, for sure. I like to think that’s just a kind of natural mutation resulting from pressures on opposing sides of the moderation extreme. However, much as I support a hands-off approach, I do feel that some of the nonsense on this list really does amount to abuse (of the technical rather than personal kind) and should be dealt with on a purely evidence basis as would any spam or clearly off-topic mail. When I said “Times of crisis” I really meant it. In general, even the vilest comments can be dealt with simply by ignoring or filtering, but sometimes you just have to hit the emergency-moderate button. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Freelists runs on Ecartis, a wonderful mailing list manager for its day, but I’d agree, a rather tragic outpost of abandonware now. Hopefully Freelists have changed whatever it was that was still broken about the latest Ecartis, but I’ve since unhappily cut over to Mailman, which I hate with a burning passion, yet have learned sufficiently to love to run my lists. Mailman is actively maintained and supports all the latest innovations, even if it is written in Python and requires the web to moderate; a feature of Ecartis near and dear to me was that you could handle all jobs using just email. Well, I subscribed, and we’ll see how it goes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hello, I have a list question. First, as helpful as this list has been through the years, there are times it does disintegrate into childish arguments. How is creating another list going to alleviate that issue?Second, does this list have a digest mowed therefore cutting down on the traffic? I belong to a testing group. I have to be able to keep up with those emails as well as whatever comes from any other list I follow. Not really sure that I want to leave it, given the fact there are so very many helpful people here. However I have to be able to minimize the traffic in order to keep up with the testing emails I need get. Thanks in advance. Pam Francis On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ xt+2FiNg0FnfdBhvfRXnbrABxF+A6F+y1rUjU04osO3zS/CTZvAeSQjKQfHBd2Zq 6bjl5I9v4KiqeHl5A+XtlNNOLfE2cDwu5KYobCECI/pbngOITXWUJKyibaf6wAtr IVquETQOHLc+k1TcZasczdNcYTflC/3f6u4/zveReYP/+aiuZsR+E6wtNlrQA3bB UGR7BltI2lLJmVO/GTz2z//K1BOBowDewEVDKqGmXCjLjrKfQJUzfp1daT4tnkFx Ug8JQgdwjcVX8UgOR0g5JBBaSdsiBgQgYINTeGi1dmbXNEhJXIiB2DR84FRxuHY= =W2wW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hi, I wasn’t going to chime in here at all but rather see where this all goes, but here is what i think for what it’s worth: I agree with Donna on where this list should go. I’m not entirely sure branching off would be the best way of doing things because it would only divide the community and leave new people confused. /Krister On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:03, Donna Goodin wrote: Hi all, As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from someone's hacked account. It does seem to me that this list has had more problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and enforcing them would benefit this list. that said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it disintegrate. Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and start a new one. Just a thought. Best, Donna On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ xt+2FiNg0FnfdBhvfRXnbrABxF+A6F+y1rUjU04osO3zS/CTZvAeSQjKQfHBd2Zq 6bjl5I9v4KiqeHl5A+XtlNNOLfE2cDwu5KYobCECI/pbngOITXWUJKyibaf6wAtr IVquETQOHLc+k1TcZasczdNcYTflC/3f6u4/zveReYP/+aiuZsR+E6wtNlrQA3bB UGR7BltI2lLJmVO/GTz2z//K1BOBowDewEVDKqGmXCjLjrKfQJUzfp1daT4tnkFx Ug8JQgdwjcVX8UgOR0g5JBBaSdsiBgQgYINTeGi1dmbXNEhJXIiB2DR84FRxuHY= =W2wW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
there may be another reason for transitioning from here. Google groups web interface has been getting increasingly difficult to use over the last year or so. SInce I am on an older mac (2007 whitebook), I have noticed some of these issues more than most. THere is another problem with google groups: unless someone else has admin rights, things can get squarely when the primary admin is absent and no one can moderate the troublemakers. -eric On Aug 26, 2015, at 5:30 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 this is me baiscally branching off, so you have to take action: subscribing to the list. Here's the info from my first message if it helps. It's worth saying here that neither of the moderators know about this--I can't even get a response from Cara, so this in no way reflects the current list. I'm just trying to do something nice and help a good community. You all do the rest by building the community, providing questions and answers and making the list a general good place to be. Here's the subscription info: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries On 8/26/2015 8:20 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 13:43: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some action? - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3bF7AAoJEAdP60+BYxej7sMH/j526MGmBff4fj9k0o7uO25E OC3RrK7HhquGbxhd34F+kqj45P7MG2WcnWysvI252B8jxYcmjzYyAXu5k3qn54XB ZoJFWkAgteBzPTPXqZ4wYJKBCPGCDnNyUf227Mb9amSTb/HbPNELPELQvevWG8+W vI5VRmpAxWwaRi/o37Ndrj7/HYK0c1PRzRfxEnuUG1MQDJRIVuF/tJeNFuWLYgwm NO2KiidAoEUumdV7pEN51mzFJa6ROW9zqqDgcDdAUf5MIz/1ubtlKN22d2l3o0CE iGy/39qAh9DiTTm2D+ysxMseo4l7Ia21JWVoIggl9hAEgzXkXU1iIV3JA4vf6ug= =4Yl9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hi All, As one of the older members of this list, I want to add an emphasis on how the filter does not really work as the replies and objections to the abuse still keep streaming in. Meaning I have to sift through fallout emails from the abuse, as well as replies commenting on how off topic this one person’s posts are. There is, in my opinion, one issue. One person who keeps abusing others without really handing logical or rational justifications for the abuse. A moderator is useful in that respect and I fully support the idea of having someone just put some order in the list. Not handing bans and evictions like flyers but some kind of a public warning with well intended words. Otherwise this list will end up being a boudoir more than a list for talking about voice over. I had ignored this place for a while due to the number of threatening responses etc I got from a single user in the list who apparently has not abated his diatribes, emotional tantrums and other such inconsistencies throughout. I don’t receive his emails anymore, but he clearly is overshadowing this list with his brand of abusive language and non sequitur posts. There are many of us on this list who are real developers and work hard in communicating various useful links and opinions, some of us have been dilligently bug reporting on non public betas for years with the intention to make the experience better, and care about this list. But of late, this has turned into a free for all firing range. Maybe it’s time to give it a renaissance, and really have someone step in and provide the necessary tools to keep it together without it being something of a totalitarian group, which in itself is ridiculous considering we are memebers of a virtual community. And if there needs to be some shaving off elements who clearly don’t understand due process when interacting with others, then first go through the due process of warning that person. If all of these emails from one thread, most talking about the same person, is not a sign of consensus then what is? Have a great day On 26/08/2015, at 11:13 PM, Krister Ekstrom kris...@kristersplace.com wrote: Hi, I wasn’t going to chime in here at all but rather see where this all goes, but here is what i think for what it’s worth: I agree with Donna on where this list should go. I’m not entirely sure branching off would be the best way of doing things because it would only divide the community and leave new people confused. /Krister On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:03, Donna Goodin wrote: Hi all, As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from someone's hacked account. It does seem to me that this list has had more problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and enforcing them would benefit this list. that said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it disintegrate. Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and start a new one. Just a thought. Best, Donna On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Good for you! Stand in that delete power. I believe he is on another list I am on, but since I understand that I am the one writing the dictionary of what I will allow to define me, I read what is relevant, and ignore the rest. I learn so much from the majority, that it seems disrespectful of the quality coffee to focus on anything else. Kare On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Rich Ring wrote: I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem with this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, although, I read some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are not only helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same level of knowledge, but one thing we all have in common, all of us were once beginners! On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen klewel...@shellworld.net wrote: well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report them to the authorities. One does not well build a new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider? On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South
Re: a new macvisionaries list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Set a filter for him. he's not worth your inbox space. On 8/27/2015 2:30 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote: Good for you! Stand in that delete power. I believe he is on another list I am on, but since I understand that I am the one writing the dictionary of what I will allow to define me, I read what is relevant, and ignore the rest. I learn so much from the majority, that it seems disrespectful of the quality coffee to focus on anything else. Kare On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Rich Ring wrote: I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem with this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, although, I read some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are not only helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same level of knowledge, but one thing we all have in common, all of us were once beginners! On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen klewel...@shellworld.net wrote: well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report them to the authorities. One does not well build a new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider? On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote: Scott, What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to be done? On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it themselves. If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything. These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view is the right view so all others be damned. wow On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com mailto:motte...@gmail.com wrote: For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Actually, you don't have to use a web interface to do Mailman. Most people do, but it's not required. You can do most of it from the command line, and through manually modifying conf files, and sequel databases, etc. I didn't say it was fun doing it that way, but it is definitely doable. man mailman Go look at the man page. Chris. - Original Message - From: Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 9:11 AM Subject: Re: a new macvisionaries list Freelists runs on Ecartis, a wonderful mailing list manager for its day, but I’d agree, a rather tragic outpost of abandonware now. Hopefully Freelists have changed whatever it was that was still broken about the latest Ecartis, but I’ve since unhappily cut over to Mailman, which I hate with a burning passion, yet have learned sufficiently to love to run my lists. Mailman is actively maintained and supports all the latest innovations, even if it is written in Python and requires the web to moderate; a feature of Ecartis near and dear to me was that you could handle all jobs using just email. Well, I subscribed, and we’ll see how it goes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
sounds like an argument between the free-speechers and the would-be do-gooders. my ancestors said, Never wish for a new Tsar. I monitor this list for my blind grandchild. While brilliant and a talented musician, her hand disabilities make it difficult for her to use a keyboard. ag On 8/26/15 8:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey Donna, I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription requests which I think says a lot to what people want. I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information. The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this. On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you. When I modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax. and i completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :) However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do. So, we all know who the problematic posters are. If someone were to say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados scott.grana...@gmail.com wrote: See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:) I would say that who cares if someone curses. I in general think people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists. My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as others may wish to filter differently. For some reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation. As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks. Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. Thanks for the response. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the community. I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote: I’m not sure moderation = good community. That’s like saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;) You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content. It might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here. Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla” something for the different viewpoints. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list. My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote: Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 05:29: Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group
Re: a new macvisionaries list
You must be talking about a different Mailman, as on my site I get: No manual entry for mailman Mailman 2.x, at least, stores its data in Python pickles, not SQL databases. Although I know about a third-party command-line tool (called mailmanadmin) which does most moderation from the shell or cron, it’s still not as beauteous as the Ecartis approach of copy-pasting moderation commands into an email message and sending them off; you still need to connect to the remote machine and run the tool. Perhaps Mailman 3.x is different, but it’s still under development, so not for me. Anyway, to keep this relevant, Mailman is how this list started. Perhaps it would be a better place for it to end up. OS X can handle Mailman’s interface quite nicely using Safari and VoiceOver. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: a new macvisionaries list
Hej, I neither was going to say anything, and honestly you all probably don't care, but for what it's worth, I thirdly agree with Donna, and with Crister. Chris. - Original Message - From: Krister Ekstrom kris...@kristersplace.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 9:13 AM Subject: Re: a new macvisionaries list Hi, I wasn’t going to chime in here at all but rather see where this all goes, but here is what i think for what it’s worth: I agree with Donna on where this list should go. I’m not entirely sure branching off would be the best way of doing things because it would only divide the community and leave new people confused. /Krister On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:03, Donna Goodin wrote: Hi all, As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from someone's hacked account. It does seem to me that this list has had more problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and enforcing them would benefit this list. that said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it disintegrate. Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and start a new one. Just a thought. Best, Donna On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler ty...@tysdomain.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished without saying anything. I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another. To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me. I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be putting that call out shortly. My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me. - -- Take care, Ty twitter: @sorressean web:http://tysdomain.com pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ xt+2FiNg0FnfdBhvfRXnbrABxF+A6F+y1rUjU04osO3zS/CTZvAeSQjKQfHBd2Zq 6bjl5I9v4KiqeHl5A+XtlNNOLfE2cDwu5KYobCECI/pbngOITXWUJKyibaf6wAtr IVquETQOHLc+k1TcZasczdNcYTflC/3f6u4/zveReYP/+aiuZsR+E6wtNlrQA3bB UGR7BltI2lLJmVO/GTz2z//K1BOBowDewEVDKqGmXCjLjrKfQJUzfp1daT4tnkFx Ug8JQgdwjcVX8UgOR0g5JBBaSdsiBgQgYINTeGi1dmbXNEhJXIiB2DR84FRxuHY= =W2wW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post
