Re: [Mailman-Users] appended email addresses on probe?
turn on personalization, and this problem goes away. I frankly wouldn't run mailing lists without at least some personalization -- because as it shows, the old style Bcc: the users style of bulk mailing (a) looks spammy and gets treated as such, and (b) users no longer are terribly tolerant of lists that hide their subscription details from them, which makes them a lot more likely to treat them as spam and report them as spam. so the real fix is to set up the lists to not look so spammy, which means some personalization aspects. On Apr 25, 2005, at 9:09 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Yup. So what's the right thing to do? I see four possibilities: -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] removing an address with a tab in it.
Somehow (I don't know), one of my lists has ended up with a user subscribed as tab[EMAIL PROTECTED]. because of taht, all the normal unsub stuff works, and I can't ofr the life of me remember the magic incantation to get mailman to let me unsubscribe an address with a funky character in it. Any hints, folks? -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org
is the owner of listowerns.org around? if so, drop me a note, will you? I'm willing to take it over and operate it. On Mar 3, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote: Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days. It's been down a lot longer than that. See http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py? req=showfile=faq01.025.htp. Since I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for listowners.org to become available again or should I join the developer's list? I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org. The problem? Extracting subscribers lists. I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members and the other commands at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py? req=showfile=faq04.009.htp? -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ chuqui%40plaidworks.com Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp; file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] block cc?
On Feb 28, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Christopher Adams wrote: A list owner asked me if a list can be configured so that any message sent to the list could not have a cc (carbon copy) attached. that'd be a very bad idea. Look at this message, for instance. It'd block any message sent to the list with reply-to-all. you'd be blocking stuff based on a standard operation by many mail clients. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman installation across two servers
On Feb 17, 2005, at 2:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I like to keep my setup simple here. Web servers run apache. Mail servers run sendmail. The two are never mixed. What we did when we had to do this was simply set up the web machine as a proxy. you still run mailman via apache on your main box, but nobody talks to it, all the web traffic proxies through the apache on the other box. Works fine, takes about 10 lines in the http.conf, and allows you to put the mailman machine safely behind a firewall and the web stuff into a DMZ zone. If you absolutely, positively don't want to run apache on the mailman machine at all, you're asking for grief. But running it behind a set of ACLs that lock it down so only the proxy machine can talk to it works, is a lot simpler, and still secure. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?
The fact that at least 4 people from this list have already responded that they too have gotten that same mailman confirm email from that domain/list at about the time, as they recall, that they first subscribed here and made their first post leaves no doubt at this point that there is a connection. OK...that's easy enough, and doesn't require compromising anything. It just requires subscribing an innocuous address to the list(s), and keeping track of posted message senders. Yup. The secret nightmare of any list admin -- that someone harvests a list by subscribing to it and then processing the postings. In fact -- I believe I found the address. It has been removed, and the site banned from resubscribing. I tend to think this wasn't an intentional harvesting, actually, but it doesn't matter. My guess is their admin subscribed ot the list when they were setting up the site, and when they went production with their spam, set things up to that all incoming mail got forwarded to their spam lists. An intentional harvesting wouldn't be so easy to find. But I think it's fixed, and I'm glad folks kept harping on this to make us go look for it. This kind of list harvest is something I've worried about for years, because it's basically impossible to find if they set it up right. Here's hoping I'm right and it was by accident. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?
On Feb 17, 2005, at 8:19 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: I'm still a bit more skeptical at this point than no doubt, but I'm open to the idea. since I've already found the culprit (I hope), it's well beyond no doubt. it's guaranteed. Someone is somehow watching this public list and getting addresses of (some, all?) first time posters to this list and attempting to subscribe those addresses to some other list. There doesn't seem to be any security issue here. It's a huge security issue. Someone is hijacking a mailing list and forcing its users to see content they didn't ask for, iwthout permission of the owner of the list. Now, imagine instead of a single confirm message, every posting got it. And that the harvesting address was on hotmail.com and forwarding off somewhere. now what? how do you find it? how do you stop it? as this list is public and anyone can subscribe to it or visit its archive. which doesn't give anyone a right to spam users of it. or harvest it. You want to kill a mailing list? do what I just suggest, and every time someone posts to it, they get porn spam. the list'll go stone dead very quickly. Want to kill mailing lists in general? let it be known that spammers have figured out that to harvest emails, all they need do is subscribe to mailing lists and harvest what comes in to their safe-house address. And since there's no direct connection there, how do you stop THAT? There are things that could be done, but few to no mailing lists do them. And it's a serious issue that I feel is just a matter of time... It's a big issue, mark. it's one of people repurposing our stuff for their purposes, and whether we have a say in them being able to do it (or stopping them somehow). USENET ultimately had no control mechanisms. It's dead. mail lists? very vulnerable. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] bug in Mailman when accessing Private Archives
On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:03 AM, Steve Burling wrote: What the heck were they thinking when the designers of Python chose amount of leading white space to indicate block structure? It seems absolutely guaranteed to cause problems such as this. it's one of those things about python that you either love, or you hate. and it's very much a religious issue among geeks. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] archiving attachments via 3rd party software with no mailbox access
check out MHonarc. (www.mhonarc.org). It should do what you want. On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:11 AM, Robert Flach wrote: Unfortunately, all of the solutions in the FAQ (which I checked before posting) require either access to mailboxes or access to the Mailman internals, neither of which I have in my current setup. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman list size limitations?
On Feb 16, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Joshua Beall wrote: I have a client who wants to setup a very *large* mailing list. Right now she has about 4500 people on the list (including myself). 4500 is not large. I've run lists on mailman over 40K. I run lists where the testing group is probably 4500... Is there an error log I can take a look at it? ~mailman/logs also, the logs generated by the mail delivery beast as well. And also, do you know offhand if I am asking for trouble with such a large list? Are there problems that crop up when I have such a large list? If mailman is not able to handle such a large mailing list, what do you recommend? mailman's not the problem. if it's a capacity issue, it's the computer that's likely too slow/small, but even there, I wouldn't except problems with 4,500 users on any platform remotely recent. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman list size limitations?
What is the largest known MM list out there? I can go to about 50K, on moderately slow hardware (sun E250). An xserve can handle that without breaking a sweat. We're thinking of using it for a list that currently contains 400,000 entries, though probably about 20% of those should be discarded/are dead. I'd say you're probably asking for problems, unless you use multiple lists and an umbrella. It might work, I'd be really curious how the internal pickles scale to that. I think you're likely to his disk I/O issues. When my stuff started getting large, I wrote systems customized for large-scale delivery and management. My guess would be without a good, random backing store database for the subscriber list, anything that large would really struggle. I'd definitely want that subscriber list in SQL somewhere. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?
sure it can. it's a porn site. you running IE on windows, right? try installing firefox on the same machine and see what happens. On Feb 16, 2005, at 4:58 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no way this can be due to a hijacked browser. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] security heads up - path traversal with 2.1.5
On Feb 14, 2005, at 4:24 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: You're trying to establish something like ownership of security bugs. No, I'm trying to get the people on this list to follow the STANDARD PROTOCOL that exists for disclosure of this data, actually. Which if people actually paid attention to how these security issues are handled instead of making up rationalizations for their own mistakes, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm not establishing ownership of security bugs. i'm trying to establish the protocol for how that information is WIDELY distributed. and that's done by, and with the consultation of, the owner of the code in question, unless the owner refuses to cooperate. Barry was cooperating, and wasn't in fact asked,b efore it was disclosed onto this list, which made it availble to everyone before a patch was available. it broke the standard protocols we use in these cases (some of us have been involved in security for a while, unlike the amateurs), and now, the people who did it are insisting the protocols worked out over the years are wrong, because they don't like them. Again. So excuse me if I'm grumpy. I think I'm entitled. Not as much as Barry is, but he's far too polite to try to get people to behave. that's my job around here. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org As a general rule, if you have questions regarding sensitive security issues, you can post them to [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is a closed distribution list. Please do not otherwise discuss sensitive security issues on any public mailing list, until such time as an official announcement has been made, including availability of a patch, etc Even if the issue has been publicly discussed in other forums, you should wait for the official announcements before discussing them publicly, whether on mailman-users, mailman-developers, or elsewhere.
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Critical security update for Mailman 2.1.5
On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I correct in assuming the attack only allows hackers to access (read) files? Yes, I understand that if they can read/get mailman passwords, they can obviously change lists but nothing more nefarious than that? they can not only get the passwords, but your subscriber lists. that is, I think, nefarious enough. it means you're one spambot away from handing over all your users to the blackhats. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] security heads up - path traversal with 2.1.5
If you own a business, and your customers start telling your employees when to take coffee breaks, would that upset you? that's the same issue as when users decide when to make announcements about mailman without consulting Barry. It's Barry's call. A lot of this comes down to the issue of people trying to help. Everyone means well -- but there's a big difference between trying to help and helping. What happened here made things WORSE for the community at large, not better, and caused a fair bit of hassle for the prime developers who had to scramble when what they'd been planning to do got torpedoed. That is NOT HELPING, no matter what the intent. If you want to help, find the people you're trying to help and ask how can I help?. Don't decide for yourself what needs to be done, ask. Because chances are, you're going to get in the way of things already going on and slow it down or mess it up. This whole argument could have been avoided if the original poster, instead of posting it to the list, had emailed Barry and said Hey, Barry, have you heard of this? what's up? -- and Barry would have told him the announcement was coming and life would have been good. 30 seconds of thinking, and asking a simple question. (in fact, that's exactly what I did when I got wind of the problem, and once it was clear Barry was already briefed and working on it, I shut up and stayed out of his way). At about this point in the argument, I usually get accused of pissing off people who want to help and discouraging them from getting involved. This isn't true, but it seems to make people feel better and saves them from admitting they made a (well meaning) mistake. What I'm trying to do is get people to understand that it's not just important to WANT to help and Do Things, but to make sure what you're doing actually makes things better and moves things forward. Otherwise, you're just wasting that energy and time you just spent, and likely wasted time and energy of others as well. there's a right way and a wrong way to help. well meaning doesn't make it right, it makes it well meaning. The right thing to do here is to go to the developers and ask what you can do to help, not just decide you're in charge and you know better than the folks who actually do the work. On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Kai Schaetzl wrote: I really don't see any sense in insisting that informing about it here and pointing to the source makes anyone more unsafe. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] security heads up - path traversal with 2.1.5
If Barry didn't know about it, disclosing it without his approval was wrong. if barry DID know, and hadn't done the disclosure himself, doing it without his approval was wrong, because Barry likely had a reason why he hadn't mentioned it yet. Either way, something like this should have been left to the project developers (i.e. barry) to disclose. Some of the mailman team knew about this (I did), and it's been actively worked on. One reason it wsan't announced here before was because the problem was in very limited distribution publically, and putting it on THIS list before the formal patches are ready is a great way to teach everyone who didn't come up with the attack what it is, while mailman sites don't have a patch to solve it. Before, only a few people knew about it (including, obviously, some blackhats). now, lots of folks do. That makes life worse, not better, for lots of us. And, FWIW, there are still some questions about who exactly is vulnerable and who isn't, because not everyone can reproduce the problem -- it seems to tie into multiple factors, nad it'd be nice if we knew who really had to worry... but for now, everyone has to, since it was brought forward before everything was ready. On Feb 9, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Ron Brogden wrote: Hello Brad. I was under the impression that the Mailman team already knew about this issue which is why I didn't go through the above procedure. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] security heads up - path traversal with 2.1.5
However, I also take Chuq's point that all security announcements to this list, and all related mailman mailing lists hosted on python.org, should be made by Barry or one of the other core developers. Even if the information has been publicly released elsewhere, it is not appropriate to post it here unless you are one of those people. The point I tried to make via private email was this: ignoring that Barry's in charge, and Barry should have the say as to when things are announced about Mailman, publishing the data here before Barry was ready to have it published and before the patches and other documentation, you're making the hack widely available before the is distributed. Yes, it's true that this problem was discussed on a few forums (full disclosure for one), meaning the competent blackhats would know about it and be able to take advantage of it, but the overall distribution of the problem was still quite limited. By choosing to post it to this list, instead of it being a serious issue with limited exposure and risk, it now becomes a serious issue with endemic exposure and risk -- suddenly instead of a few people knowing the hack and being able to take advantage of it, basically anyone interested in Maiman could. And the instructions for how to protect yourself from it weren't final or ready for distribution, much less a patch or the updated release. To say it was already out there is a false justification. it's the equivalent of hearing someone talking about it on a cel phone at Starbucks, and using that as justification for putting it on billboards. it complete changes the dynamics and risks of the exposure, putting sites at risk that otherwise wouldn't have been -- because instead of the clueful blackhats knowing about the problem, now every person on the list does, including all of those technically naive folks who just happen to be pissed off for being kicked off a mailing list and are looking for a way to get back at an admin. my position is simple (and unchanged): if it's not your project, don't make strategic decisions about it. it was barry's call. Barry and Toiko were working the issue and trying to get things ready. By having it prematurely disclosed to a wide audience, those plans were screwed, and so were Barry's and Toiko's schedules and lives. That, enough, is reason enough to not do it, but it also likely caused some sites to get hacked that wouldn't have been, if it'd been handled properly. Today's premature disclosure was like saying that since the adults lit candles in the evening, it was okay to hand matches to their children. Whatever the best of intentions -- a very bad idea. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman + giant lists + the infinite weight of the cosmos
I'd imagine Apple's lists are much, much larger... IIRC, the last time I heard, their largest single list was somewhere in the region of 15,000 users. at one point we had one list that was over 40K, but we've migrated it to other things and it's not on mailman any longer. But then they host over a hundred lists, and many of those lists are both reasonably large and high traffic, which results in amazing quantities of mail being delivered every day. we're well over 500K deliveries a day these days. Not sure exactly how, since I don't do the day to day any more, but it's quite busy. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] {Oink!!} Pig at the wedding question/diatribe
And you get what you pay for, I guess. If you're in that situation, why do you assume that because the software doesn't have a price tag you no longer need a compentent tech person managing it? you did a great explanation of why geeks still get paychecks, not why these packages are bad. On Nov 5, 2004, at 9:36 AM, Stewart Dean wrote: Now you have 3000 people using and loving it and wanting it up every second (a college runs 25x8x357) and along comes a honking security exposure. Should I defecate or go blind??? The magic word is PRODUCTION. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] {Oink!!} Pig at the wedding question/diatribe
On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Stewart Dean wrote: John, everything you say is valid, and your response is helpful. It is not my intent to just 'bitch from the cheap seat'...the old, 'The food's no good and there's not enough of it'. What I was attempting to express was/is my frustration at a beautiful application with many good feature, responsive development, etc., etcthat is missing the boat with the fundamental issue of maintenance and updating. It is like the guy who builds an exquisite power boat in the basement...but with no way to get it out of the basement. And those two issues are fundamentally tied together. There are a limited number of people actively involved in Mailman's code. Most of those people have limited amounts of time (I'm currently back in 60-70 hour mode, although I seem to be heading back to a more normal 50 hour week finally). Volunteers are involved because they have their own ideas of what's important and what is needed to improve the system, and they commit the time to make sure their priorities get implemented. I've got a nice laundry list of things I'd like to see in Mailman. Better UI and easier maintenance would be nice, but they're in the middle of my list, not the top. I'm not going to move them to the top of MY list because YOU feel they ought to be there. And given my schedule, which is similar to Barry's and Brad's, and Toiko's and... (you get the point), there are always going to be more features than time. I know when folks who are involved with open source projects say hey! start coding! it pisses people off. I sympathize but I sympathize from both sides, and the bottom line is that's the reality. It's not that developers aren't open to feedback or suggestions, because we all are, and knowing the core Mailman folks the way I do, I feel safe saying they agree with you and wish they could do it, too (but we all have lives, or pretend to). But the bottom line is -- users who make suggestions can influence the priorities of the developers (and do), but when users attempt to dictate those priorities, it gets the developers just as pissed as hey! start coding pisses off the users. It goes both ways here. It needs to be remembered that the coin of the realm in an open source project is sweat equity. If you invest in the project with sweat equity (hours, code, donuts, resources, jolt cola) you get a say in setting the agenda and direction of the project. If you don't invest that time -- you're a spectator. And spectators can't change things, they can only attempt to convince someone who can to champion their cause. Which happens, but if it doesn't, that's not OUR fault as developers (although many leave in a huff claiming so), it's your fault for not putting more than talk into the bargain. that's life. None of us are paid to do this. And most of us not only have full-time (or more) jobs, but spouses, children, lives, houses, lawns and all those other things do, just like all of the users do -- except we ALSO try to fit working on this code into our lives as well, because it's important to us. And there's a lot to do, and way too few people around putting time into doing it. So it comes down to the reality that if you feel it HAS to be done, do it, or find someone to do it and pay them, or pay one of us to do it for the project, or something. Because that's how you set the agenda instead of complain about it. And if that sounds mean, sorry. Life doesn't always allow live happily ever after sugarcoating, and it serves no useful purpose here to pretend otherwise. I'm not bitching at a person, but at a situation, and you don't fix the situation by lying about it or avoiding it because it's unpleasant. but the reality is simple: lots of needed work, few available development hours. Physics wins, and the only way to change that is to change the basics of that reality: take away features, rearrange their priority, or add resources to solve them. And unless you choose the latter, you're just one more voice in the hundreds asking for things to be done, and it's the ones doing the work that decide the priority. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] {Oink!!} Pig at the wedding question/diatribe
of course, we're also desperate for people to document... that's another common request -- better docs. On Nov 5, 2004, at 3:32 PM, John W. Baxter wrote: Some people who shouldn't code should document, instead. Lots of projects could use that (including commercial ones). Or coordinate. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman on 2 servers
no, but you can set up mailman to run on one machine, and use the second machine as a web proxy for the pages. that's straight forward. I'd be very leery of network filesystem issues because of the locking problems that might happen. On Nov 3, 2004, at 1:44 PM, Troy Richard wrote: I think that might be my problem. Both servers have their own file systems. I wonder if their is a way to aliases the url to point to the mail server instead of having to go to -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
But the same error message over multiple mailings for *all* AOL list members over a week or more would indicate that it is correct. Maybe. Remember that I used to work there. Brad's right here. I've dealt with this stuff and AOL enough to be able to confirm they don't always have their act together. it's gotten better over the last year or so, mostly, I think, because they're shedding subscribers at a huge pace and shrinking down to a size their infrastructure and staff can actually get a handle on. But whenever AOL acts up for me and users complain, I always tell them the same thing -- to move to a competent ISP. AOL's got a tough job, given their size and the sheer volume of spam that they have to fight off. but they've done a lousy job of dealing with it, and it's a job that badly impacts their users (and they don't tell their users what they do or give users a chance to evaluate their actions, unlike places like Earthlink). And they've done a horrible job of teaching their users how to use the system. I finally got tired of constantly getting bogus spam reports and feeling like AOL was making me responsible for teaching their users how to use the system -- instead, I tell them to move to a competent ISP instead I've given up trying to fix AOL's problems for them. They're just not worth the hassle to me any more. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Oct 21, 2004, at 3:56 AM, John Fleming wrote: are otherwise blocked. Mine is a personal sever. I am a newbie, but I'm using Postfix/Debian and it is not an open relay. AOL also blocks email from servers living in IP spaces known to be dialup or in the cable modem or home DSL ranges in many cases, because so much spam comes zombied home computers. Their position is you should be using your ISP's SMTP machines to send e-mail, not your personal machine, so if you're on a consumer DSL line or cable modem line, that could well be the cause of the blockage. And frankly, these days, I think they have a point. It's one reason I've always run my home off of a SOHO line, not a personal line. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Oct 21, 2004, at 6:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: blacklist. Even though the list mail is finally coming from my server, couldn't the presence of his IP or ISP in the message headers be enough to trigger the blacklist? - john No. Yes, actually. That's not quite right, I don't think, because if the sender uses Squirrelmail on my server, actually, if the received lines have a blacklisted IP in it anywhere in the chain, there's a good chance sites will block it. And yes, many of them will report back YOUR IP address (as the one doing delivery) as being blocked, even though they're blocking soemthing two or three hops prior. I've seen some amazingly badly written and stupid spam blocking stuff out there. Much of which I write off as hey, if your users are stupid enough to let you get away with throwing that stuff at their email, we'll, that's their problem. AOL is not immune to that kind of your admins are on drugs, or need them feeling. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
did you follow the link that AOL supplied? The IP address you are sending from has been temporarily rate limited due to AOL Member complaints. their suggestions are there, also. On Oct 20, 2004, at 8:29 AM, John Fleming wrote: I've followed the AOL members not receiving list mail thread from last month, but I don't find any particular resolution. I've just started a new list with 200+ members, and ALL of the AOL addys bounced with the following: host mailin-03.mx.aol.com[64.12.138.120] said: 421-: (RLY:H1) http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/421rlyh1.html 421 SERVICE NOT AVAILABLE (in reply to end of DATA command) Anyone know of a specific answer to this problem? THANKS! - John -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Pretty good Announcement only How-to + more on Mac
On Sep 25, 2004, at 11:28 AM, demo wrote: Just out of interest, have Apple actually put anything back *into* your development community? Looking into the future, you might want to hive off a lost-Mac-tech-mailman list ... My guess is that there are going to be a whole load of lost souls headed this way as, in my experience, Apple is telling folk they don't support Mailman . Um, Apple has supported Mailman for years. They pay my salary, and have fully supported me in putting my time and energy into this project. But lets not let facts stand in front of a good rant. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Pretty good Announcement only How-to + more on Mac
um, I happen to know those folks pretty well. They're as responsive as they can be, given they have the same kind of restrictions we all do (even here in Mailman-land): can't do everything for everyone, because there isn't enough resource, and not everything ought to be done. won't speak for them, but I will defend them on this. They care as much about their stuff as Brad does about his... On Sep 25, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: Then there's the group that is responsible for developing and supporting MacOS X Server (a separate product from the regular MacOS X Client). Unfortunately, the latter group is well-known to effectively ignore support requests, even from customers paying thousands upon thousands of dollars per year in support contracts. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] 30,000 Member List - Python Pickle Performance
yup. It's probably the delivery piece, not mailman. I've run 50,000+ on a sun E250. On Sep 9, 2004, at 12:10 PM, Dave Stern - Former Rocket Scientist wrote: Is this due to the pickle based persistence mechanism used? Can I do anything to help? Regarding sending, you'll probably wanna tune your MTA. I had an 11,000 list that affective hung a Sun U10. With some sendmail magic, I was actually able to get it to handle the load. This included setting up multiple queues with specifically sized queue runners. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] All AOL members not receiving emails
you would be doing them a favor, honest. On Sep 1, 2004, at 9:28 AM, John wrote: so may have to unsubscribe all the AOL people and tell them to use a different email if they still wish to be on the list. That's kind of a bummer for them -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Block out off office autoreply messages
On Aug 23, 2004, at 8:57 AM, Jeff Barger wrote: Is Mailman capable of blocking this kind of message? You can play around with the spam filtering to catch a lot of these messages. IMHO, it's best to just stop munging the Reply-To. See this page: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html. true. if you're coercing reply-to, you're funnelling all of that traffic onto the list. have fun. As Jeff noted -- well-behaved vacation bots don't cause a problem, because they follow the rules and don't send those messages to lists. The ones that don't -- are broken. And trying to stop them up front will fail, because they don't follow the rules you could use to catch them (because if they do follow the rules, they don't send the messages!). since there are an infinite variation of out of ... or on vacation or away from... or etc ... ways people write those messages, attempting to string-trap them will simply waste endless amounts of your time and energy,a dn still fail (leaving you pissed and frustrated). Here's how I suggest handling it. In your list policy docs, make it clear that it's a person's responsibility to use vacation bots appropriately. my policy is simple: if one shows up on a list, or sending vacation notices to a list admin or the listserver, that address is unsubscribed. Immediately. no warnings, no followups. Just an unsubscribe. it's then the person's responsibiltiy to figure it out and subscribe again if they want. If the same address resubscribes, and then we get MORE vacation notices from it, they're unsubscribed and banned. Users are allowed to make one mistake and fix it. if they don't, they're not welcome. that gives them the responsibility ot fix it, and some motivation to do so. if you don't? they won't. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Worm
it's a new virus, sending itself out as return bounces. On Jul 26, 2004, at 9:46 AM, Jim Gammon wrote: Hi folks, a Newbie here. Suddenly our list is generating a high volume of messages about our mail being unacceptable, and one saying we seem to be infected with a worm. Any advice on what to do? Thanks Jim - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] How to remove X-Confirm-Reading requests from mail headers distributed by Mailman?
Guys -- Can we please drop this? It's been beaten into the ground. I don't think the mailman development crew has shown itself well here, either, especially Brad, who seems to be grumpy beyond the needs of the discussion for some reason. I don't think we as a team managing an open source project look good right now, it wasn't handled particularly professionally, IMHO. and for the record, I tend to disagree with Brad -- I definitely see it as useful to be able to strip out headers that cause systems to auto-reply with a return receipt. but since those headers aren't really standardized, it's not as simply as flipping a switch. what I might do, stepping back a couple of steps and looking at it somewhat objectively, is to consider an option that simply strips all non-RFC headers from a message. But I'm rather surprised to see us blowing off someone's privacy concerns here in the heat of whatever grumpiness people brought to the discussion the last couple of days, and especially doing it as members of the Mailman team the way we did. All of the points made are relevant, the way they were made was, well, IMHO less than optimal. so maybe we should all shut up and let this cool off. Maybe reconsider the idea once the emotion's drained a bit. But right now, we're not doing anyone any good on anything. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] The AOL Problem
On Apr 3, 2004, at 11:26 AM, Bob Bowers wrote: On Tuesday I was informed by my web hosting service that they had multiple spam complaints from AOL for one of my mail lists. welcome to the monkey farm: http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/000256.html http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/000360.html http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/000200.html and there's more in my blog. basically, you depend on your users being intelligent. AOL assumes they are, plust that they never make mistakes. Neither is always true. you have two choices: ignore AOL, which, actually, you can, lathough explaining that to your ISP will be amusing. second, turn on personalization, add the user's email address to the footer, where AOL inexplicably doesn't cloak it, and unsubscribe anyone stupid enough to file a spam complaint agianst your mail list. My policy is simple: do it once, you get unsubscribed; do it twice, you get banned. they learn fast once their actions in reporting spam ahve consequences. unfortunately, AOL doesn't reuqire anything of the but pushing buttons, and doesn't punish users who report stuff incorrectly -- so they don't have to learn unless you force them to. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mail Queue
On Feb 8, 2004, at 10:54 PM, Thomas Hochstein wrote: It has got nothing to do with Mailman. Go and ask at the right place. I have no clue Obviously. But please stop bothering us with that. c'mon, folks. There's a polite way to help people, and then there's -- this. Stuff like this doesn't give the project as a whole a good karma out in the real world. My suggestion: if you aren't going to help, stay quiet. This is very clearly not helping. Please stop bothering the world with your grumpiness. The ONLY person who has the right to be grumpy at users of this list is Barry. The rest of us are here to either help take the load off of Barry, or to shut up and not create problems for him. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Need help w/ mailman, qmail
On Feb 9, 2004, at 3:15 PM, Adam Wozniak wrote: On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Remko Lodder wrote: /var/qmail/bin/sendmail should also be able to do the task :) Thanks so much for all the help. My lists now appear to be passing mail. My shunt directory is still full of test messages, but I'm less concerned with that. Can I delete these files manually? Or you can run ~mailman/bin/unshunt, which will requeue things. If they hit shunt a second time, they're probably dead (most of my shunt files are spam) and you can always delete that stuff. It's sometimes a good idea to put in a cron job to delete files in shunt older than some period of time, to save you having to remember to look and delete... -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:58 PM, Paul H Byerly wrote: I think the issue for the developers is theory vs. reality. What is the desired behaviour for the majority of new Mailman lists? Should not that be the default, with appropriate explanations? This isn't the answer some will want to hear, but -- the defaults are the desired behavior for the majority of new mailman lists, based on the combined wisdom of the Mailman developers, and after long consideration and not a little enthusiastic discussion among interested users here on theese lists (you think this is the first time this has come up?) You may not agree with them, they may not be appropriate for your list or users, but they aren't set that way by mistake or accident. They are set based on how we feel things work best under normal circumstances and for typical (especially less experienced and non-geek users). Our feeling is the geeks and the experts know how to tweak their own enivronment to suit their needs, the novices don't. So the geeks don't need us setting defaults -- and the novices do. We also don't feel that the argument yahoogroups does it, because some of us feel that Yahoo is horribly broken (and remember, yahoogroups is configured to maximize messages that go through the list, and entries that go to the archives, because that maximizes how many ads they can send and how many click ads they can display. Those are not necessarily the best reasons to set defaults if you aren't trying to generate a revenue stream like Yahoo). Besides, if you buy into the argument that Mailman should do things like Yahoo becaues Yahoo is really large and they do it that way, then I guess all e-mail clients ought to operate like AOL's does, and we should throw out all client features that, and we should dump mac os x and linux for windows, because of microsoft's market share. Large market shares is not a persuading reason in and of itself. well documented. I'd like to think most folks who are new to Mailman will take as much time to learn it as I did, but what I see on this list suggests that this is less and less common. You only see the problems on this list. You don't see the much greater number of sites and users who are happy. Be ware of assuming the squeaky wheel speaks for the whole wagon -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 5:02 PM, Mark Dadgar wrote: Cool! I'm a Level 10 Paladin with 115 hit points! (ok, *now* I'm done) lightweight. I'd have you killed, but you're not worth the karma points. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:57 PM, Mark Dadgar wrote: So, what's your point? Unless you've been in my position, you wouldn't understand it. Actually, since I know Brad pretty well by now, I'll bet he would. Try him and see. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
those of us who do email for a living feel it's not a rationalization, and not ridiculous. But those that argue against it do. Sorry, but the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't change my mind. On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:55 PM, Mark Dadgar wrote: This is totally ridiculous. The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:01 AM, John Buttery wrote: If the whole concept of information being irretrievably destroyed by clobbering Reply-To: willy-nilly isn't a compelling reason to you, I'm not sure what else to say. This issue goes away if we could stop trying to use reply-to for too many things. What we're really trying to do is make a bi-state operation tri-state, and bad things happen. What reply-to coercion is trying to do is fake reply to list. That, in reality, is its own operation. Mail clients ought to support reply/reply-all/reply-to-list (but with one or two exceptions, don't). And to properly support reply-to-list, you need that information in the headers, which is done by the list-* headers mailman now provides. Which is why we grimace everyone says icky! delete! because that's how we'll ultimately get mail client authors to fix this right. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 9:06 AM, Mark Dadgar wrote: My lists use it. And my users prefer it - I know, I've asked. self-selected audiences. I have asked users what they think, and gotten one answer, and I've done formal surveys soliciting feedback from the entire list, and gotten very different answers. Be wary of taking the sound of the squeaky wheel from the entire vehicle. Yeah, it's so damned hard to edit the To: line, isn't it? Wow. for you? no. For non-geeks? you'd be surprised. in fact, you probably would be. I'm not, I've spent a lot of time talking to them. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
Bottom line, I can understand that there was a time when reply to author made sense for a lot of lists, but I don't think that is the case anymore. I feel that it really depends on the nature of the list - the purpose, the participants, the number of participants. and the religious war begins again... (grin) Bottom line: both sides have valid points. Neither side can declare victory. And every few months, off we go and have the fight again, which convinces nobody to change sides... -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Warren Woodward wrote: We now have upwards of 400 public lists on our mailman server, and I have heard complaints over this matter from every single one of them. be wary of the squeaky wheel speaking for the entire wagon. just list this discussion. you may be right. I've found the reply-to enthusiasts speak on the situation way beyond the typical population, and with more enthusiasm than the non-reply-to types, who are generally tired of arguing and just shut up and go away when it comes up. which reminds me... (exit, stage running like hell... grin) -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
On Feb 5, 2004, at 2:27 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: Indeed, he has. He doesn't like to brag about it, but he does run some of the largest known Mailman mailing lists, and his systems are on the same scale as the Kolstad Chalup papers that I have previously mentioned on this mailing list. Chuq could probably write the third installment in How to Manage Very Large Mailing Lists. I intend to, actually. And I have to note that my mailman installation is the smallest system I manage. If it was your job and your life that was on the line every single time that one of your customers hit the reply key, which would you want? Do you really want to play Russian Roulette with 20,000 other people? I know people fired for that mistake. I've come awful close myself. On my own system, after an admin changed a setting he was told not to change. Not fun. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL format frustration
On Jan 4, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Steve Roitstein wrote: I write the messages in the mail program the comes with my mac. I sometimes send out a small jpg attachment but mostly it's text with a bit of color added to a few words. Subscribers who are on AOL get the message in a different text, no line breaks, no returns, nothing. Just all text in a huge paragraph, no formatting. Needless to say, these messages are very hard to read and unappealing. are these primarily Mac users? welcome to AOL hell. Mac users prior to Jaguar 10.2 or who haven't updated their software are on AOL code base 5, which doesn't understand HTML e-mail. Instead, they get the text-only version your mail client creates if you're sending out formatted/html email. If you're not sending the e-mail out as HTML, but instead in some form of styled text, that's also a problem, becaues the styled stuff is stripped out by AOL. what format is the e-mail in? html? rtf? In any event, you don't have a whole lot of options. The best way to deal with this is to send a multi-part HTML/text where you craft each piece separately and not have the mail client do it for you. If you're really interested in making it look good on AOL, a tri-part adding in an text/x-aol (which is a hybrid text with a few htmlish things in it). but all fo this requires some custom sending tools, you can't build this stuff with a standard e-mail client. if you want to stick to writing and sending via a client, you're going to had issues with AOL, especially if you're mailing to users of older versions of AOL. it's a real pain in the butt, without a lot of easy answers. But if you aren't, writing your e-mail in HTML is your first step. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounces coming back to sender address
On Dec 14, 2003, at 6:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to make sure all the bounces go back to list-owner@ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] domain.com for bounce processing and so that I do not have to see them. Basically, you can't, because there are some sites that simply refuse to follow standards and accepted email standards, and you can't force them to. You can try, but then you end up screwing over other key things mailman is trying to do and it simply moves the problem around. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman AOL's Client TOS notification
anyone on any of my lists who files a spam complaint against my mail list gets unsubscribed. when they resubscribe and complain about being dropped, they get The Lecture and The Warning. If they send a second round of spam complaints, they get unsubscribed and banned. Funny, AOL users learn quickly once it's in their best interest to use the software right. Well, except for one or two. Now, I'm not happy I have to spend my time teaching AOL users how to use their software properly because it's badly designed and AOL doesn't teach then, but I had an extreme case of this last week. A user filed about five spam complaints with AOL against one of my lists. I unsubscribed her. She resubscribed immediately without sending any email at all. So I sent her the Lecture and the Warning via email. that bounced because of her address book sendings. So she got unsubscribed again to get her notice, and I SMTP blocked her with a 500 message telling her to contact me via another address. Her response: attempt to subscribe again. The confirmation, of course, was rejected by my server, and that rejection, of course, bounced because of her spam blocking settings. And so we sit. One might think, if stuff like this were happening, to actually e-mail the ADMIN asking what the hell's going on -- but no? And frankly, that's not MY problem. Not any more. Not after all these AOL users doing stupid things because AOL writes software to encourage it... chuq (but I'm not bitter!) On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:54 AM, Ricardo Kustner wrote: Are there any other mailmain admins here who also get alot of complaints through AOL? Any tips on what I can do about it before my server and possibly ISP gets blacklisted? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman AOL's Client TOS notification
don't bother. I've had that discussion. The folks who deal with the TOS messages are trained at the if the user says it's spam, it must be spam, so what are you going to do about it? level. they don't want justice, they want quiet. (and I can sympathize at some level, but what a way to run an airline). On the other hand, one of the sites hosted on my machine had installed a copy of formmail.pl that turned out to be insecure (what version isn't?) and after sitting there doing nothing for (literally) 18 months, a spammer found it. And within hours of them turning on the spigot, I was getting TOS warnings, and within five minutes of the first TOS warning, I had that CGI disabled and cleaned up. I'd much rather have to deal with the occasional AOL user who did something without thinking than, well, the alternatives. On Nov 4, 2003, at 8:15 AM, Vivek Khera wrote: You can always call up AOL and tell them that your lists are all confirmed opt-in, and see what they say -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman AOL's Client TOS notification
On Nov 4, 2003, at 8:54 AM, Ricardo Kustner wrote: I wish I could do that: my current mailman setup doesn't put the user's address in the To: address and since those wonderful AOL reports only include the original message, I can't tell from who it is coming!! upgrade to 2.1, turn on personalization, put the email into the footer. As in: ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. ott-senators mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://www.plaidworks.com/mailman/options/ott-senators/ chuqui%40plaidworks.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The mailman config for that footer is: ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. %(real_name)s mailing list (%(real_name)[EMAIL PROTECTED](host_name)s) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: %(user_optionsurl)s This email sent to %(user_address)s -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] personalization (was Re: mailman AOL's Client TOS notification)
On Nov 4, 2003, at 10:52 AM, Will Yardley wrote: Do we *really* need this feature on the mailman-users list? Does anyone actually find it helpful? god, yes. Please don't assume everyone on your lists is a geek with perfect memory of which email address got signed up for what list when. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] personalization (was Re: mailman AOL's Client TOS notification)
bad assumption. On Nov 4, 2003, at 10:58 AM, Will Yardley wrote: I'd like to assume (perhaps wrongly) that most people on *this* list can figure out what address a message was sent to by looking at the headers of the email -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman CPanel?
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 06:28 PM, Paul H Byerly wrote: Am I correct in assuming that the problem is with the CPanel interface with Mailman No. All we really know is that Cpanel isn't working on one specific ISP. Whether that's CPanel's fault or the ISP's fault, or smoe other factor, we don't know, and we shouldn't assume. All we do know is that the Mailman crew isn't involved with CPanel, so once CPanel takes Mailman builds a tool to support it, we're out of the loop and can't really help. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman CPanel?
so perhaps the Mailman FAQ should have an item suggesting Cpanel users contact Cpanel for support? On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Bob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Definitely not stock installs of any of the programs bundled with them, or stock configs. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Users worried about spammers getting their emailaddress
On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 04:51 PM, Heath Raftery wrote: I have a user who is on a campaign to remove his email address from any web site. good for him. he's figured it out... However, I did point out that the archives are still downloadable in raw mbox format, complete with email addresses. If you can get to an e-mail address in any format without a password, so can a spambot, and they will. and do. I suspect that before long they will parse not just @ but also resolve 'at' with any combination of spaces either side. slashdot has already proven that any attempt to obfuscate e-mail addresses programmatically can/will be de-obfuscated by the spammers once its worth their time. Remember, they don't have to de-program all of your obfuscations. they're patient. They can wait until they get your e-mail address re-arranged in a way they do understand how to unravel. A good example of this that comes to my mind, is the way eBay handles communication between bidder and seller. Any ideas about the possibility of something like this in Mailman? I think we're headed in that direction, for better and worse. I also think we're headed towards other changes in e-mail to allow users to control how their address is used. the best (IMHO) way to handle this is some form of addressing that allows a user's address to be usable for, say, a week. After that, if you attempt to use the address, you drop into challenge/response/whitelisting. Having a list server take responsibility for forwarding email is also likely useful, but it creates problems for sites where they don't control the entire domain -- you're effectively requiring the list server to live on a sub-domain and own all email to that sub-domain to do that properly. I am (slowly, slowly) working on a new archiving scheme that won't disclose sensitive user data. Until that happens, my archives are locked behind security realms. That doesn't protect them completely, but the spambots don't seem to need to break that lock yet, not when so many other lists are available in google... -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Attachments Possible?
Gee, maybe you should start writing code, eh? I used to until [troll deleted by moderator] As one of the admins here, I've just set [EMAIL PROTECTED] to moderated status, so all of his postings will be approved by one of the moderators before going to the list. Given where this discussion is rapidly going, it'll save everyone a lot of time and energy. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unable to purge corrupt address
This gave me an idea, since I had a list with a binary email address (how? add_members of a directory instead of a file in the directory. oops). Here's what I did: dumpdb config.db this gave me the \x00\x0c\x. version of the string. I cut and pasted that into a quickie perl script: #! /usr/bin/perl print \x00\x0c\x... % foo foo.out I used that file with remove_members: % remove_members -f foo.out listname and it removed the address for me just fine. By dumping the binary into a file and then using -f, it avoids running the binary through the shell, which is a Bad Thing, so remove_members works on it. On Friday, March 14, 2003, at 06:01 AM, Dwight Ernest wrote: Thanks, Jon. This worked (when I chose a character other than X which apparently had special meaning in the pickle!). Jon Carnes wrote: The easiest way I've found to do this is to stop Mailman from running and then use a hex editor to edit the binary directly (change the out of range value to an standard Ascii value). Note, that Mailman stores the email names in several places within the database. It would be great if someone would write a small script to parse through the database and check all the email names... sigh, yet another thing on my list. Hope that is helpful, Jon Carnes -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ chuqui%40plaidworks.com -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman 2.1: lotsa language options problems...
CVR it boiled down to problems with some of the language codecs, CVR the multi-byte languages. So evidently that isn't really CVR fixed on OS X, but I'll deal with that later. I bet you're still having problems building Python extension modules (i.e. C modules) on OSX. I'm sure I am. I'll look at that when I can. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] mailman 2.1: lotsa language options problems...
first of the month, and my password sending errored out again. I've been spending some time debugging. it boiled down to problems with some of the language codecs, the multi-byte languages. So evidently that isn't really fixed on OS X, but I'll deal with that later. debugging this is tough, since there's not a lot of info. I finally figured out that the key error listed here pointed back to a language: [plaidworks:/Users/chuqui] mailman% /usr/bin/python -S /usr/local/mailman/cron/mailpasswds Traceback (most recent call last): File /usr/local/mailman/cron/mailpasswds, line 216, in ? main() File /usr/local/mailman/cron/mailpasswds, line 200, in main text, poplang) File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Message.py, line 198, in __init__ charset = Charset(Utils.GetCharSet(lang)) File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py, line 591, in GetCharSet return mm_cfg.LC_DESCRIPTIONS[lang][1] KeyError: ja which I probably should have figured out faster, but what the heck. It'd be a lot easier if I could figure out which list or user record is affected... But in starting to deal with all of this, I ran into other issues. Among others: If you change the set of supported languages for a list, it doesn't update user records. So even if I turn off japanese as an option, users already set up to use it get to keep it. Worse, if you look the user up in the membership roles on the admin web site, the web pages report the first language in the list (on my site, czech or german); you have to dump the database to find out they're still set to ja. The system really needs to catch this change and reset their language to the default. and it gets worse. I went into Defaults.py and turned off the languages completely, so they couldn't be turned on again accidentally until I'm sure they're fixed, and: If you would like to help us identify the problem, please email a copy of this page to the webmaster for this site with a description of what happened. Thanks! Traceback: Traceback (most recent call last): File /usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver, line 87, in run_main main() File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py, line 192, in main show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata) File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py, line 515, in show_results form.AddItem(show_variables(mlist, category, subcat, cgidata, doc)) File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py, line 524, in show_variables options = mlist.GetConfigInfo(category, subcat) File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py, line 413, in GetConfigInfo value = gui.GetConfigInfo(self, category, subcat) File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Gui/Language.py, line 42, in GetConfigInfo langnames = [_(Utils.GetLanguageDescr(L)) for L in langs] File /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py, line 587, in GetLanguageDescr return mm_cfg.LC_DESCRIPTIONS[lang][0] KeyError: big5 bang. a list still configured for big5 is now dead... I can't get into the admin pages at all for that list. Off to unedit defaults, restart, and clean up the hard way... Basic summary: the code surrounding languages is intolerant of errors or changes. If there's a problem, it dies (in general, while it needs to flag this to the admin, I'd argue it ought to fallback to the list default and continue, not core dump). If things change so a user's choice isn't there, it shouldn't cause errors, it should regress gracefully to the list default -- not show random values and coredump cron jobs... (FWIW, anyone who has list-admin capabilities can shut down large parts of a mailman site by turning on a language, setting a language value for a subscription, and turn it off again. That's a security problem unless you trust all your admins). and if the underlying defaults change, the systme can really break. all of this code assumes nothing is ever turned off or taken away. If it does, really bad things happen... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] X-Loop
On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 10:01 PM, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: Huh? What's an X-loop header? Mailman doesn't use or add this header. It's a procmail convention, so that procmail recipes can tell they've already seen a message and break a potential mail loop. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Local DNS vs. DNS on the same subnet
On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 02:22 PM, Angel Gabriel wrote: My question is, would it be quicker to have the DNS on the same machine as mailman, Yes, sometimes very significantly. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: RFE
On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:54 AM, Larry Rosenman wrote: The import facility is critical to delivering targeted content within the message distribution. But that is not, IMHO, what Mailman is designed to do. What you are talking about is a bulk mailer ... not a mailing list system. THANK YOU. They're correct. Don't use a hammer to fasten screws. We run one of the larger mailman installs out there (behind sourceforge, but I'm not sure there are many others larger). I also run a hunk o' my company's e-marketing operations. When we needed systems for that, which require a much different user interface than discussion lists do, I wrote custom systems. Mailman really isn't something yous hould try to wedge into that round hole, and I don't think it makes sense to try to use it as the backend... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ But when that last guitar's been packed away You know that I still want to play So just make sure you got it all set to go Before you come for my piano -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] upgrade: 2.0.13 to 2.1, searchable archives?
On Friday, January 3, 2003, at 06:39 PM, Phydeaux wrote: My worry about doing this is what happens when I want to upgrade MM afterward? If I have a non-standard installation what kind of nightmare am I setting myself up for down the road? my approach is to not use pipermail. My archives are (will be...) set up using a combination of a custom tool, and mharc, which combines mhonarc and an integrated search engine. (http://www.mhonarc.org/mharc/) that way, each piece (archives and list server) are independent, so you don't have to worry about re-integrating every update. to me, it's cleaner than trying to add stuff to pipermail I'd have to maintain. given my free time, noot a good sitaution. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ But when that last guitar's been packed away You know that I still want to play So just make sure you got it all set to go Before you come for my piano -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] questions
On Saturday, November 30, 2002, at 12:09 PM, Danny Terweij wrote: 4. Will subscribers be able to ubsubscribe without passwords? This is the largest complaint we get from subscribers. Nope, still the same. Not strictly true. if you don't give the password, it'll mail you a link you can use to confirm the unsubscription. So you can avoid the password hassle by clicking a web link. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Wish: Spam by vacation notifications in Mailman
On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 07:20 AM, Mike Burton wrote: If you don't set your reply-to to the list, you won't set up your lists to ask for these wonderful little mailbombs. If this were the case, wouldn't the originator of the message receive these instead? Might that not cause some confusion Yes, and yes. But it sure is better than having it posted to a list and having everyone on the list get it instead. a lesser evil thing. Or having that vacation message start a loop with itself and having everyone on the list get 500 copies before they can track down someone to kill it. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Wish: Spam by vacation notifications in Mailman
On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 04:09 AM, Richard Lippmann wrote: Hi, we use Mailman and we like it! But there is a problem in people who are in our open maillists. They go for vacation and put some kind of agent in their mailbox who answers every e-mail. If you don't set your reply-to to the list, you won't set up your lists to ask for these wonderful little mailbombs. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Switch to quarterly reminders
Please consider switching the base code of mailman to send quarterly instead of monthly 'reminders' to subscribers. As an avid subscriber of lists, it's annoying to get these messages every month, when every 3 or 6 months would suffice. You can change the cron setting. I think he's saying that the default for mailman ought to be quarterly, and I got the impression he was speaking as a user, not an admin -- someone who GETS all of those messages every month. Monthly is traditional, but I think it's worthy of some thought. With the List-* headers in the message, and the footer that traditionally points to the info pages (and with 2.1, that can be customized to the user), do we still need to send out reminders monthly? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Switch to quarterly reminders
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 02:35 PM, J C Lawrence wrote: Writing as an admin: Yes, I like and want the monthly reminders and I don't want them any less frequent. Why? I'm fairly convinced that they save me from, unsubscribe me! messages. I rank the usefulness of these things this way: 1) unsubscribe/help information in the footer of every message. 2) regular postings. 3) the List-* headers (because they're new, people don't expect them, and MUA's don't make them easily available yet. Long term, they're the answer, once everyone buys into them) Certainly my rate of such messages has collapsed since I moved to mailman, and I've a burst of unsubscribes every month immediately after the reminders go out. I'd argue it's more likely the footer for discussion lists. I did some experimenting with regular postings a few years ago (way pre-mailman), and found that there wasn't much difference between posting bi-weekly, monthly, and not at all, at least in terms of helping the casual user. They don't keep a copy of it, so it's never there when they want it (so they simply blat at the list). And the more often you post it, the more likely people simply tune it out as noise. That's one reason why I started experimenting with footer language instead, and pre-mailman, simply stopped sending regular postings. It just seemed like they were mostly bit-bucketed. Where they come in handy, I think, are digest users and lists with infrequent postings. the busier a list, the less the monthly posting probably matters. The less frequently a list is used, the more it's useful just as a hi, rmember us? thing, since people can get out of the habit of using a mail list. But it also is a reminder to them they'd meant to unsubscribe... Personally, I think monthly is about right. I'm not ready to do away with them, especially since 2.1 can hook the bounce systme into them. but I'm still unsure just what good they do, either. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Switch to quarterly reminders
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 08:48 PM, J C Lawrence wrote: Okay, but that doesn't explain the rash of unsubscribes every month on an otherwise active discussion list. have you checked to see whether some (or all) of those people had set themselves nomail? Did they go nomail thinking they unsubscribed? Or go on vacation and forget to turn it back on, and when the reminder came, decided they liked the quiet? I can think of a bunch of scenarios, but I don't have any data. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Can't subscribe via web
On Friday, October 25, 2002, at 01:32 PM, Raul A. Gallegos wrote: that it would hinder subscriptions. It says YOU'LL BE SORRY IF YOU DON'T which I took as not completely necessary. Hmm, that kind of message I take as, If you don't do it you will be screwed, so you better do it. *smile*. I guess we need to change the message to do this, or we'll hunt you down and hurt your dog. DEVELOPERS: Why don't you just add the cron jobs as a NECESSARY part of the installation. No, no, no!!! I don't want install scripts messing with my crontabs, I'd rather set them up myself. What if you have a special palace to put them in or want to tweak the times.? crontab editing isn't really standardized, either, and it's a real b-tch to figure out if the cron entries are already there, or have been installed and customized, or this is not something I think should be automated. Too many ways to make life much worse. And given how often we run into I thought it was optional (as opposed to read the instructions? why?'), I'm just not convinced it's broken. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail dumping Mailman messages?
On Wednesday, October 16, 2002, at 01:15 PM, Jeff Simmons wrote: I've talked to several other Mailman admins - Hotmail is dumping a lot of messages from us on the floor. Hotmail seems to be more broken than usual. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech, Apple IST E-mail systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman
Title: Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman On 8/16/02 1:44 PM, Steven C. Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can somebody unsubscribe my ass from this list!! Yes, but it needs to be someone involved with the list. Wchih leaves out everyone on the mailman-users list you just annoyed. We cant help. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms).
Re: [Mailman-Users] Wishlist Items
On 8/14/02 12:55 PM, John W Baxter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I never use those forward to a friend (or soon to be former friend) things, and cringe when friends aim them at me. I'm too lazy to look into privacy policies deeply enough to know what's going to happen to the addresses and the information that someone thought someone else would be interested in xxx. I won't use them on any site where I don't trust the privacy policy. And, well, I generally odn't use ANY site I don't trust the privacy policy, but that's a different issue. - Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Can I pay for Technical support? re: MailMan?
On 8/13/02 5:54 AM, Support Desk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ha, ha.. This is open source, not microsloth, there is no paid support option.. Personally, I find DSL and Cable lines too unreliable. Funny, I've been running my stuff on DSL since about 1998, and before that on a leased line into the house (back to 1995 or so), and I find it perfectly reliable enough. Although I always find people telling my my setup won't work fascinating... (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Wishlist Items
On 8/13/02 1:29 AM, Nigel Metheringham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Wile E Spammer of Evil Spammers Incorporated writes a little script that does an invite subscribe of a few hundred throusand of his friends with an invitation note of whatever crap he is sending out this week. Isn't this basically just another form of open relay? Not necessarily, but... Most web sites now have some form of forward to a friend capability. I'm working on implementing one now for a project. If you do it carefully, you can avoid putting yourself open to abuse. If you don't The intent is okay. The original request put it too far into the approval chain, though. Some way of letting a person know about the list is good. Signing them up isn't. Building your setup so it can be hijacked is really bad. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Can I pay for Technical support? re: MailMan?
On 8/13/02 6:58 AM, Support Desk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone who thinks they can host from their basement, using DSL or Cable, is sadly misinformed, Okay, I've been doing exactly that (well, back room, not basement) since 1995. How am I badly misinformed? I mean, it works fine. I've been slashdotted multiple times and my server doesn't implode, unlike many others. Frankly, I don't think you have a clue here. I'm DOING IT. Have been for years. So why don't I have a clue? And you do? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Can I pay for Technical support? re: MailMan?
On 8/13/02 12:57 PM, Tom Whiting [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DSL, I'd question the stability of, because I've yet to see a STABLE dsl line (not saying it doesn't exist, but still). Cable, on the other hand I'e had zero problems. I've had basically zero downtime on my DSL line. Any outages I've had have either been scheduled for upgrades, a couple of times router failures (one of which took out my city, because the router that failed was in the covad facility), and the occasional router programming glitch. And none of that you can blame on the DSL line, because router stuff can happen on ANY network. But overall, I had MUCH higher levels of outages on my old 56K leased line than I ever had on my DSL line. The thing to worry here about is Does the admin know I'm running this list. Most providers throw a big ol hissy fit if they see you running servers on their networks. See my other note on this. That's why they have business lines. If you're plaing the go cheap and hope they don't find out game, that's not the ISP's fault. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Wishlist Items
On 8/12/02 3:57 PM, G. Armour Van Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But if the confirmation message included a note *from me*, whom they know, and then offered them the chance to ignore the message and not subscribe, or to reply to be subscribed, this would be a good process. No, bad idea. Don't ever start a subscription process for someone without their knowing what's going on. But it's close. Good idea: ability to send e-mail to a person saying hey, you really ought to check out this mail list, I think you'll want to subscribe, with the url pointing to the Listinfo page. But bad idea: sending email saying I subscribed you to this list, because I think you'll like it, with or without a confirmation for that email. Because many users won't notice that it requires a confirmation, and start screaming at the admins (and anyone else in the neighborhood) to get them the @#$@#$% off the list, whether or not they're on it yet. Point the user to the thing. Don't, whatever you do, do NOT start the process FOR them. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman
On 8/8/02 2:01 PM, Raquel Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm likely to catch hell over this ... but isn't free speech a sad excuse for being rude? First, free speech has nothing to do with your context. This is Barry's list. He says what is and isn't allowed here. Your free speech stops at his door. You're welcome to say what you want -- Barry's under no obligation to let YOU use HIS list to say it in. Go set up your own list to say it in. Second, unfortunately, to many who don't have a clue what the term free speech REALLY means,it's turned into I have the right to tell you to shut up. It merely means they feel they can do anything, and you can't tell them not to. Of course, by saying you can't tell them to not do it, they impinge on your free speech (if you accept their definition), but since that affects you, not them, that doesn't really matter. To them. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Surveying list users
I just posted this to list-managers. I think it's relevant enough to mailman users that I'm posting a copy here. Apologies in advance to those who see this twice or see it as noise... I mentioned this a week or so ago as part of another thread. I've been thinking about it ever since, and I've decided to go ahead and try to pull together something to do this. The idea: try to get a real-world, statistically significant view of the average mailing list user. I plan on doing this by creating an online survey (maximum 25 questions), and asking list managers to post a pointer to it on their lists, and list users to ask the list manager to post the pointer (I'm going to explicitly tell users not to do it themselves; I expect to be ignored by some, of course) I'd like to get 10-25,000 users worth of data here. More would be even better. Front end PHP, back end MySQL. I plan on trying to limit it to one submission per email address (using MD5 hashes on the address -- your suggestion welcome for alternatives) so I can try to recognize that I've seen an e-mail address, but not actually store the address for privacy reasons. Failing that, I'll simply set it up so that multiple submissions overwrite each other (last in wins). Part of this is to try to figure out what users REAL preferences are on a large scale -- we've had endless fights over reply-to, over subject line flags, etc, etc. Let's see if we can figure it out once and for all. I also want to try to figure out how these preferences change based on various aspects of the users -- how do newer users differ from experienced ones? That sort of thing. Finally, I want to see if I can figure out where these users are heading -- see if we can get hints of where this stuff will be in a year, or 3. What's this mean for list-managers? I'd like feedback on things you'd like to find out here. Obviously, I'd like you to post the finished survey to your lists, but for now, what I really want are ideas of what to ask, and as I start building the survey forms, to comment on and help improve them, so this stuff will be generally useful to all of us. I don't expect to have a draft of the survey for a few weeks, but please start sending suggestions of what should be on it now. It'll help me focus what ought to be on it. Right now, I see splitting this up into a few sections: 1) about the user: how long on the net, platform, client, etc. 2) functionality issues: html, MIME, reply-to, subject flags, etc. 3) other tools: usenet, IM, etc. 4) lists subscribed to (one reason I want to be very careful about privacy; I don't want people to avoid listing, um, sensitive or adult lists) Since I want to keep this pretty short (25 questions or so, to keep from intimidating users into giving up), I don't think we'll get everything we want. But feel free to suggest things,a nd we'll decide later what to make the priorities... Your thoughts on this more than encouraged... Chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
[Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mail forwarding loops - discovered!
On 6/13/02 10:10 PM, Bob Puff@NLE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But the mail server software needs to be fixed! Thanks, Bob. I needed the laugh. Yes, that server software is broken. When I run into them, I blackhole them so they can't annoy my servers any more. Soemtimes it gets their attention. Amazingly often, it doesn't seem to. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] DNS Queries
On 6/10/02 7:07 PM, Jonathan Andrew Sheen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking see if mailman has a way to specify what port it's making its DNS requests *from.* Mailman does no DNS lookups. It's all up to your mail delivery system. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] RE: digest sent to list posting address, why?
On 6/5/02 4:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my new lists sent the first digest to the list posting address today from [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'on behalf of' [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you check the Received: lines to make sure this thing didn't make a round trip through some user's mail client? Because that on behalf of sounds an awful lot like it got forwarded or redirected. Take a look at a set of full headers to see whether maybe it got sent out normally, and then someone who received it did this to you Um, for you. Um... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] User List
On 5/16/02 11:52 AM, AerosmithFanClub.com List Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obnoxious is the people on the list who answer damn near every question on here with a curt read the FAQ. or worse. Since you've told us repeatedly the software sucks, and you're now moving rapidly into telling us that we all suck, too, why the hell are you still here? Do yourself -- and us -- a favor, and go find a piece of software that doesn't suck. If you need help off the list, I'll be happy to help, just to be rid of you. To everyone else, all I can say is don't feed the energy monster. This has gone from not agreeing with our development styles to personality attacks. Trolls are trolls, and it serves no useful purpose to the Mailman system to continue trying to 'help' this person, since all he's interested in doing is pointing out what idiots we are. Chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ No! No! Dead girl, OFF the table! -- Shrek -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] cron, was: Mailman does everything exceptsend mail
On 5/15/02 11:37 AM, Jörn Nettingsmeier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: total of 48 megs of ram - the system is very low-spec. you could configure it to run qrunner only every 10 minutes, but i doubt such tweaks are worth it. I know people who use a toothbrush to clean the grout in the tile of the bathroom, too, but most of us don't feel the need to do that to say the bathroom is clean... (in other words, IMHO, it's overkill and you're 'solving' a non-problem) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] unexpected EOF
On 5/11/02 6:08 PM, Barry A. Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, should Sendmail.py just go away? Yes. If nobody's fixed it by now, it's unlikely anyone will. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] (no subject)
You probably updated either the version of python or the version of mailman, right? There was a change made to the encrpytion to close a security hole. Side effect is the old encrypted passwords no longer work. So you need to reset the passwords for the lists. On 4/26/02 3:46 PM, Dave Weiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: appear to be functional, users can log in to modify their settings, and I can log in using the site password that I set after moving the lists. However, in tests, the list owner is unable to log in using the admin password. I know I can easily reset it, but I'm curious as to the -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On 4/19/02 8:53 AM, Jon Carnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes you kind of want to create a Meta admin page with some standard setups like Announce-only list, etc. Or write up faqs/howtos on how to configure specific standard list styles? Maybe an operators manual of some sort? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Blocking few features for listadmin
On 4/10/02 8:58 AM, Jon Carnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a tough one. The best way to handle it, is simply lay down the law and remove admins who break your rules. I've had a couple of fights over this one. It's convinced me to create a formal terms and conditions document outlining rights and responsibilities of a list admin. Unfortunately, dinking with reply to is one of those things that is forcing that issue, because I have a specific site-wide standard, and once in a while, I have an admin who won't accept that (more often, they don't remember, and it's unfair to yell at them because they don't memorize the rules I don't have written down anywhere). I had that discussion again this week, in fact. So I'm going to formalize out a document explaining what the standards are, and what the expectations for a list admin are. And violations like tweaking frozen values cause admins to get locked out the frist time, repeated violations will get an admin replaced or the list shut down. Right now, I'm working on the trust you to cooperate mode, and while 95% of them do just fine, that's just not good enough, and the fights that entail with that other 5% just aren't constructive. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman vs Sympa
On 4/10/02 9:38 AM, Devin Atencio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a better mailinglist manager for work. We are currently using Majordomo and we want to move away from Majordomo. Smart move. Good for its time, very long in the tooth. I came across Mailman and I like what it has to offer. The Web Interface is very nice. I also came across a mailinglist manager called Sympa which seemed to have a lot more features. When I was evaluating MLM's a couple of years back to move off of majordomo, I originally chose Sympa. I found a couple of issues in implementing it that made me rethink the decision, tried Mailman, and I've been quite happy with it. I won't mention what the issues were, because I know the Sympa folks have made major improvements to Sympa since then and I don't know that my issues are remotely relevant any more. My point is to note that either MLM can work for you. Sympa is basically my second choice, and it's a good, solid MLM. The two have somewhat different philosophies on things, but both have active user and developer populations and are under solid development and enhancement. Which one you use, I guess, comes down to which group you feel more comfortable with and which feature set best meets your needs. If I weren't working with Mailman, I'd be using Sympa. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On 4/8/02 9:59 AM, Dave Sherohman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I'll give you that List-Post: isn't applicable to your list. And I believe in 2.1, mailman won't include headers that aren't relevant to a list, so an announce-only list won't get list-post. Barry? Is that true? I know we talked about it. And I guess it might be a little silly to include subscription instructions (the List-Subscribe: header) on messages that only get sent to people who are already subscribed to the list. Not at all. Messages get forwarded around A LOT. So the list-subscribe is there so that the person who gets the message from a friend of a friend who saw it on a mail list has a chance of figuring out how to get onto the list. List-Archive:, like List-Post:, seems like Mailman could determine Again, I think that's a 2.1 thing. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Removing those extra List-* headers
On 4/8/02 6:19 PM, John W Baxter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One can't, if one uses the Mailman installation managed as a service by someone else. Suitable bribes to that person might help, though. I think I remember the OP saying that he was in the using-a-service camp. Of course, maybe, just maybe, the people who spend their time designing, building, maintaining and operating mailman and mailman-using systems know something about this topic that people like OP don't. Nah. He's right. Let's nuke the headers. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On 4/7/02 5:30 PM, J C Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you considered that perhaps Mailman is just not for you? Nope. Not relevant. Don't inject facts into a rant. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] Feedback needed:nodupes patch and reply-to munging per user
On 3/11/02 12:59 PM, Bob Puff@NLE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that having those options would be nice, but also please allow for reply-to being forced back to the list (regardless of user settings). Some of us require that. Bob's got a point. There has to be a way to say don't override, although, if you don't enable the option for a list, don't you already get that? The other thing I'd like like to see is an option to 'strip all reply-tos' so that a reply-to that is set as it enters the mailman system is removed and not propogated. Allowing and end-user's reply-to to propogate can cause all sorts of havoc, and frankly, can be used to mailbomb someone if you want to play troll. (imagine this scenario: I'm mad at someone. So I log onto a mac mailing list and say microsoft rules! -- and set the reply-to to the person I'm mad at. If you don't strip that reply-to, all the angry replies go back to the poor schmuck in the reply-to -- and since I've already abandoned the hotmail account I used to start the bomb, I'm off scott free) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Feedback needed: nodupes patch andreply-to munging per user
On 3/11/02 10:04 PM, Jon Carnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 for removing dupes by default. I swear, one of these days I'm going to implement a karma system for lists. Admins could set minimum karma ratings before you go into moderated status, or simply banned. You could put an X-header into messages with the karma rating, so users could filter based on the karma rating. All sorts of fun ways to get people to play karma politics on your mail list... Funny, FWIW, is -3. It is one of the biggest problems with /. Karma. But I digress. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Did you in fact create user mailman? It's complaining it doesn't exist. If you've created it, it may be that mailman and/or python needs to be made netinfo aware. But I kjnow others have gotten mailman running fine under MacOS x. it's something I've got on my plate for Real Soon Now (in fact, talked ot my boss about that today) On 3/5/02 4:26 PM, Jon Carnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alas, I havn't played with the Mac OSX (though folks in my LUG say it's Xtremely cool...), so I don't know how the system sets users/groups. Some other folks on this list in the past have written treatises about this very subject. Perhaps a dive into the Archives will part the veils? Again, good luck. You've made it a fair distance already! Jon Carnes --- Original Message: Tuesday 05 March 2002 05:22 pm --- File /Users/mailman/Mailman/Defaults.py, line 502, in ? MAILMAN_UID = mailman NameError: name 'mailman' is not defined Somehow, I made it through this in the ./configure portion of the game. Now, it appears as though a few of the Python scripts aren't happy. This is almost enough to make me want to go back to majordomo (ACK!! He said the m word!!!) but I think I'll hold off for a bit and see how this part of the saga plays out. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Our Institution requires standardheader/footer on all pages...
On 2/17/02 8:28 PM, Jeffrey Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our Institution requires standard header/footer on all page. (They also require that we stick to a standard color palette) I use mod_layout (www.tangent.org) for that. Much easier than hacking the code. Standard color templates might require a little tweaking, but that's easy. -- Chuq Von Rospach ([EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/) Will Geek for hardware. The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman question: How do I use server sideincludes in administrator interface option: Edit General List InformationPage
On 1/30/02 9:38 PM, Ed Reiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Benny, Yes - I'm using Apache, and SSI had been enabled. But SSI generally doesn't work in CGI programs, which the python files are. The two are basically mutually exclusive. What I did was use mod_layout (www.tangent.org) instead of SSI. Since it's an embedded module, it can act in front of things SSI can't. -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Capacity
On 12/20/01 1:01 AM, J C Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any capacity limitations as far as the number of names mailman can handle at a single time? Explicitly no. In terms of runtime resource consumption, yes. I'd be very wary, unless you have really large iron. The current mailman data structures would struggle with that much data. With 2.1 and an external database datastore, it will be better, but what that means is still unknown since we haven't tested it. I'd expect the bounce processing and the add/remove functions would have a big problem processing in a timely manner on Mailman 2.0.x. It's just not designed for this large a subscriber set. Also -- you can't just say can it handle this? -- you have to define how quickly. If it can take a week to deliver, well, you could house this on a TRS-80. You need to understand what your performance requirements are, and size is just ONE piece of that. Interesting. That is a suspiciously large number given that the second largest known list on the planet has just over 2 million subscribers. Really? I manage two larger than that (neither on mailman). I know I'm not the two largest lists, either. Not by a long-shot. I think your data is outdated. -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Capacity
On 12/20/01 11:56 AM, J C Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really? I manage two larger than that (neither on mailman). Hurm. In my context above I'm assuming that list does not cover marketing lists per se but only what we'd historically/'net-wise consider a mailing list Sorry, a list is a list. Especially since the original message was about a large opt-in list, which I take to mean e-marketing sort of by default. -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
