Re: [OT]:RE: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 04:25 am, Kesav Tadimeti wrote: Hi Kal, In India, RedHat and Debian are popular. Haven't heard of ELR. g And no, Indians have *NO* plans to take over to innovate a new distro, not to speak of taking up French govt. contracts. /g Tadimeti Kesav KEANE INDIA Ltd. E9 - E12, SDF NEPZ NOIDA - 201 305 U.P, INDIA Thanks for your reply, Tadimeti. I just apologize for being incorrect about the Indian linux-distro. The correct name is ELX ( http://www.elxlinux.com ). Here's a quote from their website : quote ELX is being developed by Everyone's Linux Pvt. Ltd, a highly progressive India-Hyderabad, (Also known as Cyberabad for its great IT talent ) based organization of young, dynamic and hardworking professionals yearning for perfection. /quote Hope that clarifies matters. Kaj Haulrich Denmark. === Powered by Linux- Mandrake 9.0 Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Source : my 100 % Microsoft-free personal computer. === Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
This is a very good post. --LX On Sun, 2003-01-19 at 15:37, Miark wrote: I don't care about -your- timing. My point was to the original poster who recommended your article as timely and relevant to the discussion on Mandrakesoft's bankruptcy. It's not. That aside, your article doesn't does nothing to inspire a better future because instead of wrapping your ideas in a positive context, (he's what would help Mandrake or here's what we can do in the unfortunate event Mandrake disappears) it's completely negative. It anticipates Mandrakesoft's death, and suggests we divert support from them at a time they need it most. It's like the that Monty Python bit: Here's one. Ninepence. I'm not dead! What? Nothing. Here's your ninepence. I'm not dead! 'Ere. He says he's not dead! Yes, he is. I'm not! He isn't? Well, he will be soon. He's very ill. I'm getting better! No, you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment. Except, of course, you're serious. I agree that _if_ Mandrake dies, your ideas would serve the remaining community well. So if you wanna draw up plans for that possibility (not eventuality) then fine. Expect the best, but prepare for the worst is a great philosophy. But let's wait for the funeral before you suggest _implementing_ the plans. Miark -- °°° Kernel 2.4.18-6mdk Mandrake Linux 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5-11mdkEvolution 1.0.2-5mdk Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
daRcmaTTeR wrote: On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, John Richard Smith wrote: Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ how much longer will newbie exist I wonder ? john good God all...they haven't gone tets up! they've merely filed chapter 11. they're going to be OK. really! We all hope so, chapter 11 is an American halfwayhouse bankruptcy term, here in uk we don't have any such situation, an entity just goes into receivership or plain liquidation, during both processes the receiver/liquidator can sell the business to any willing purchaser(s) but usually they are that far gone that it's just a case of flogging off the assets, but not always. Certainly whatever else Mandrake's situation is it IS A DESIREABLE OS someone will want to own or controll it, the fact that it is having to seek chapter 11 protection is not necessary the end by any means. I just wonder what kind of future it will be. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Monday 20 January 2003 08:09 pm, daRcmaTTeR wrote: snip you know...all this discussion has got me wondering if we the Linux community at large, could some how get together and solicit the help of one or more philanthropists (sp). I read an article in my local paper recently that some rich guy donated $14 million to NPR. Lord knows there are a lot of wealthy philanthropic people out there. I wonder if anyone has contacted any of them yet? /snip Unfortunately I don't know anyone with a pocked that size. But here's another *optimism* : For once chauvinism might do something useful. It seems that North America and UK tend to use RedHat, South America Caldera, East Asia TurboLinux, China RedFlagLinux, India ELR (or some such), Germany S.u.s.E. etc.,etc.. But what about France and its *gloire* ? From what I hear S.u.s.E. recently signed some major contract with the German govt. - coincidence ? Is it even thinkable that the French govt. would scuttle its only linux-distro and let the Germans / Brits / Yankees / Chinese / Indians take over ? Knowing the Frenchies, I think not. Kaj Haulrich Denmark. === Powered by Linux- Mandrake 9.0 Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Source : my 100 % Microsoft-free personal computer. === Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[OT]:RE: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Hi Kal, In India, RedHat and Debian are popular. Haven't heard of ELR. g And no, Indians have *NO* plans to take over to innovate a new distro, not to speak of taking up French govt. contracts. /g Tadimeti Kesav KEANE INDIA Ltd. E9 - E12, SDF NEPZ NOIDA - 201 305 U.P, INDIA Telefon: +91-120-256 8210 (371) e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] India ELR (or some such), Germany S.u.s.E. etc.,etc.. Is it even thinkable that the French govt. would scuttle its only linux-distro and let the Germans / Brits / Yankees / Chinese / Indians take over ? Knowing the Frenchies, I think not. Kaj Haulrich Denmark. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, John Richard Smith wrote: Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ how much longer will newbie exist I wonder ? john good God all...they haven't gone tets up! they've merely filed chapter 11. they're going to be OK. really! -- daRmaTTeR Reg. Linux User #186492 Stupidity has no moral high ground...it can't see that high! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:13:14 -0800 Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's odd that someone from the same timezone as myself can't imagine that the article was published on the same day but before the announcement came out. I don't care about -your- timing. My point was to the original poster who recommended your article as timely and relevant to the discussion on Mandrakesoft's bankruptcy. It's not. That aside, your article doesn't does nothing to inspire a better future because instead of wrapping your ideas in a positive context, (he's what would help Mandrake or here's what we can do in the unfortunate event Mandrake disappears) it's completely negative. It anticipates Mandrakesoft's death, and suggests we divert support from them at a time they need it most. It's like the that Monty Python bit: Here's one. Ninepence. I'm not dead! What? Nothing. Here's your ninepence. I'm not dead! 'Ere. He says he's not dead! Yes, he is. I'm not! He isn't? Well, he will be soon. He's very ill. I'm getting better! No, you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment. Except, of course, you're serious. I agree that _if_ Mandrake dies, your ideas would serve the remaining community well. So if you wanna draw up plans for that possibility (not eventuality) then fine. Expect the best, but prepare for the worst is a great philosophy. But let's wait for the funeral before you suggest _implementing_ the plans. Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Miark wrote: On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:13:14 -0800 Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's odd that someone from the same timezone as myself can't imagine that the article was published on the same day but before the announcement came out. I don't care about -your- timing. My point was to the original poster who recommended your article as timely and relevant to the discussion on Mandrakesoft's bankruptcy. It's not. That aside, your article doesn't does nothing to inspire a better future because instead of wrapping your ideas in a positive context, (he's what would help Mandrake or here's what we can do in the unfortunate event Mandrake disappears) it's completely negative. It anticipates Mandrakesoft's death, and suggests we divert support from them at a time they need it most. It's like the that Monty Python bit: Here's one. Ninepence. I'm not dead! What? Nothing. Here's your ninepence. I'm not dead! 'Ere. He says he's not dead! Yes, he is. I'm not! He isn't? Well, he will be soon. He's very ill. I'm getting better! No, you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment. Except, of course, you're serious. I agree that _if_ Mandrake dies, your ideas would serve the remaining community well. So if you wanna draw up plans for that possibility (not eventuality) then fine. Expect the best, but prepare for the worst is a great philosophy. But let's wait for the funeral before The Monty Python quote was very apt! Mandrake is alive and kicking, as far as I can tell. I think it would have been much better if they'd gone for foundation status in the first place (a la Debian), but on the other hand, it's good to have a few Linux distros out there in the dog-eat-dog world of capitalism. the headline I look forward to seeing ten years from now: Mandrake bails out ailing Microsoft. Sir Robin the Optomistic -- Difficulty is a coin which the learned conjure with so as not to reveal the vanity of their studies. - Montaigne Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Sunday 19 January 2003 23:32, robin wrote: Except, of course, you're serious. I agree that _if_ Mandrake dies, your ideas would serve the remaining community well. So if you wanna draw up plans for that possibility (not eventuality) then fine. Expect the best, but prepare for the worst is a great philosophy. But let's wait for the funeral before The Monty Python quote was very apt! Mandrake is alive and kicking, as far as I can tell. I think it would have been much better if they'd gone for foundation status in the first place (a la Debian), but on the other hand, it's good to have a few Linux distros out there in the dog-eat-dog world of capitalism. the headline I look forward to seeing ten years from now: Mandrake bails out ailing Microsoft. Sir Robin the Optomistic Ouch! That long!!;o) Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 04:50:24PM -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Welcome to the list. g I note with considerable interest that this is the first post by you that I've ever seen, and my mail (in this incarnation) goes back to 2000. So I'm honored. ;) I had not been subscribed to this list. But I became aware of the conversation here. Felt I should clarify my position. I'm subscribed to the cooker list and a couple closed/semi-closed Mandrake lists. Between those lists, IRC (I hang out on #mandrake on freenode) and various other things I'm involved in that eats up a lot of my time... WellI agree that there should be an increase in value, however it still remains true that this distro has more value to offer than just about any other one out there (yeah, I'm going out on a limb again here) according to Distrowatch. Also according to everything else I've seen and heard so far. This is something that should definitely not be ignored when you are considering the pricing of a product. I certainly don't think that the current situation(s), either with the company or the quality, suggest that the product should be priced beneath current levels. At the same time I do agree that downloadable ISO's have an effect; I'm just not convinced that it is a negative one. Mandrake would not be in trouble right now if it were not for the e-training debt crap; hell, they *were* showing a profit. My issue is simply that the value of what you can get for free is too close to what you pay for. Obviously I agree that they have an excellent distro in comparison to other distros. If I didn't I wouldn't care about this distro and I'd be using something different. It *is* possible for experienced entrepreneurs to make incorrect determinations or decisions. Take me, for example Granted... this is simply a matter of my opinion. It's based upon the information that I have at hand. Additional information of course could always alter my opinion. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 Jan 2003 11:25 pm, Ben Reser wrote: Anne, there is no way the majority of the shareholders are people like you and I. We make up a minute portion of the funding. Totally accepted. If you refer to Mandrakesoft's web page about the company you will note rather large venture investors. These are undoubtably the people who installed the executives that got us in this mess... As far as I know those people are still shareholders. Yes this is an assumption. But Mandrake would have to have incurred significant debt to buy out these shareholders. You could be right. I don't know the answer to this. I just feel that business investors and vcs are not necessarily the same thing. Business investors, of course, can be a problem if their core business hits a difficult time, and these are difficult times for most. VCs, however, almost always have a very short-term plan, and I think are the real risk. I don't know whether they are still around. I got the impression that they weren't. What we know of the debt suggests it was more of contracts not share buybacks. Agreed. Again, my impression is that these are contracts imposed by the VCs. My hope is that the court administration will enable them to buy out at more favourable terms. I'm sure that we both wish Mandrake a good future. :) Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
boy no wonder they say Holland is the sex tourism capital of Europe. (LOL) You better get started on those cookies though. :) Ummh, Where'd the nude guy with 'the 3 fingered salute' and the 'held-up' cd go? Now there's a money maker!=;o) Don't say he never made it through the reboot:o( Coasters anyone? HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Saturday 18 January 2003 06:20 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Friday 17 Jan 2003 11:25 pm, Ben Reser wrote: Anne, there is no way the majority of the shareholders are people like you and I. We make up a minute portion of the funding. Totally accepted. If you refer to Mandrakesoft's web page about the company you will note rather large venture investors. These are undoubtably the people who installed the executives that got us in this mess... As far as I know those people are still shareholders. Yes this is an assumption. But Mandrake would have to have incurred significant debt to buy out these shareholders. You could be right. I don't know the answer to this. I just feel that business investors and vcs are not necessarily the same thing. Business investors, of course, can be a problem if their core business hits a difficult time, and these are difficult times for most. VCs, however, almost always have a very short-term plan, and I think are the real risk. I don't know whether they are still around. I got the impression that they weren't. What we know of the debt suggests it was more of contracts not share buybacks. Agreed. Again, my impression is that these are contracts imposed by the VCs. My hope is that the court administration will enable them to buy out at more favourable terms. I'm sure that we both wish Mandrake a good future. :) Anne Anne: It's no accident that VC's are sometimes referred to as vulture capitalists. They are the modern embodiment of the old time con men and snake oil salesmen; they just wear nicer suits and have MBA's. If the general public had a better understanding of VC's, we'd be hearing VC jokes instead of lawyer jokes. Although some of the breed are still around, others have learned to ask Would you like fries with that? -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Carroll Grigsby wrote: It's no accident that VC's are sometimes referred to as vulture capitalists. They are the modern embodiment of the old time con men and snake oil salesmen; they just wear nicer suits and have MBA's. If the general public had a better understanding of VC's, we'd be hearing VC jokes instead of lawyer jokes. Although some of the breed are still around, others have learned to ask Would you like fries with that? To be fair, there are _some_ decent venture capitalists out there, mostly in Silicon Valley - hackers who made a fortune before the dotcom bubble burst and, having bought everything a geek could possibly want (lots of state of the art gadgetry, every DVD ever made, your own pizza parlour etc.) decided to plough back some of it into the community. There again, they're probably the ones who are now saying would you like fries with that? I wonder if Mandrake is suffering from its geographical location. Europeans may have an innovative attitude to software, but in general Americans have a much better idea of how to finance and market software companies. OTOH, a relocation to China might be worth a thought ... nice big potential use base there! (See, I _do_ say nice things about America sometimes!) Sir Robin -- Difficulty is a coin which the learned conjure with so as not to reveal the vanity of their studies. - Montaigne Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 01:04 am, Ben Reser wrote: Brandon Vanderberg wrote on Thu, 16 Jan 2003: Otherwise, we'll have to have a big giant bake sale. We could make like little penguin and star cookies and stuff. ;) Well it appears that the actual debt is 2 million euros and that the other 2 was for development. In light of the bankruptcy proceedings, the sum will likely be much smaller than that when they actually pay it off. You better get started on those cookies though. :) Hello! Mandrake cookies? Mandrake is a poisonous plant with emetic (causes vomiting) and narcotic properties (consult your friendly DEA agent or encyclopaedia). I'm not sure you'll be able to get them through customs for export. But in case you're still inclined I've provided a nice recipe that I once made (successfully) myself: Penguin and Star Cookies (American term for biscuits) - Ingredients 100g butter (not as nice with margarine) 1/2c caster sugar 30g mandrake root* 1/3c dessicated coconut 1 egg 1/2c plain flour 1/3c wholemeal flour 1c icing sugar (or mixture which is softer) 1tbsp hot water food colourings and sprinkles *macadamia nuts may be substituted - Method 1) Preheat oven to 180 degrees C. 2) Lightly grease a biscuit tray. 3) Cream the butter/margarine and sugar until light and fluffy. 4) Grind the mandrake root in a food processor or blender until the mandrake resemble coarse breadcrumbs. 5) Add mandrake to creamed butter and sugar mixture. Mix well. Add egg. 6) Sift the flours together. Add flour and half the coconut to the creamed mixture and mix well. 7) Use a penguin and star-shaped biscuit cutter. After baking, dip in coloured icings. 7-alternate-method) Spoon heaped tablespoons of the mixture on to a biscuit tray. Flatten slightly with a fork and sprinkle each biscuit with the remaining coconut or roll in coconut. 8) Bake for 15 minutes until golden brown. 9) Cool for 5 minutes before moving to wirerack. Makes 40. To raise US$2m at US$1.50 a dozen, you only need 400,000 batches (more to cover the cost of ingredients). Note: Excessive consumption of mandrake cookies may have vomiting and narcotic effects. It may be prohibited in some jurisdictions to possess narcotic substances. Have a nice bake sale :-). Enjoy! Regards, _nasturtium Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 January 2003 04:30, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 11:30 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. --LX Lyvim, want to join me in a bet with anyone else? I've got $10 here that says Mandrake does more than just survive, they come back stronger than ever! :-) Hah! You freeloader! You just want make even more of a profit then the rest of us when their stocks start rising again=:o) Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
1/16/03 10:30:49 PM, Ronald J. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 11:30 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. --LX Lyvim, want to join me in a bet with anyone else? I've got $10 here that says Mandrake does more than just survive, they come back stronger than ever! :-) -- /\ Dark Lord \/ I aint going to bet aginst you. 1 of the things that people here have failed to mention is that Mandrake was within weeks of reaching a berak even point when this event took place and had timing been just a bit different it would not have happened at all. Now with crediters off their back for a little while and probably some debts and payment amounts reduced in a lot of ways they may be better off than they have been in about 2 years. My guess would be that they should start to turn a small profit soon. It has been a hellofa long time since they last did that!! As I see it Mandrake has the best OS around and if they can just grt their act togather a little bit and put some old contracts and debts behind them they can not help but to do well. However I will admit that the next 2 or 3 months will be the critical point. It will be interisting to watch how things go. But if my guess is right in 6 months they will be doing OK and in a year or so may be taking a little bit of business away from Microsoft every day. Hell they are already doing that. Overall if you take all things into consideration they have done a outstanding job to have achived all that they have in such a short time. Just 1 or 2 good breaks and they could be at the top of the heap in the linux world and with Linux growing as fast as it is that aint a bad place to be. Marc Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 09:33, Mike Larson wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: It's true that if it comes to the 'bitter end' then difficult decisions will have to be made, but I want to address the problem of where our money goes. Much play has been made of the fact that it will go to pay off old debts, as though that were a completely negative position. The reverse is the truth - debts mean interest payments and control by outsiders, both of which are very much against our interest. Only by getting rid of those debts will they have the money and control to pay for the employment of those people we value, and who will in the future provide us with the distros that we want to see. Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Anne Sorry Anne, but I disagree. If they thought they could somehow pay off the old debts, they would not have filed for bankruptcy. The _fact_ is that they have filed. Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. The purpose of bankruptcy is to reorganize a potentially viable company. What probably will happen is that the reorganized company will have its prior debt wiped out or reorganized into new (and less valuable) debt and/or restructured equity (new stock.which is different from the old, which will probably be wiped out and be worthless). For example, see Worldcom. It has huge debts which will be settled for pennies on the dollar. The stock, once $65.00 is now at $.16, and probably not worth that. When WCOM emerges from bankruptcy, if it does, the debt will be mostly gone and a leaner company, with a chance to survive, will exist. This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served. So, save your money and send it to Mandrake later, if you want to help. Otherwise, you just help Mandrake debtors salvage a little more of their investments. IANAL, so feel free to disagree, Mike Whew, what a mule blinder perspective. Hi, Lyvim. I am not familiar with the term mule blinder perspective, but I assume it is a derogatory term for anyone that disagrees with you. I said above feel free to disagree, not feel free to be insulting. However, often the written word can be misinterperated and if I have done so here, I apologize. :-) To clarify my views: I like and use Mandrake and do think it will survive and come out of this stronger. However, I will wait for the situation to settle out before I send any more money to Mandrake. Where to start on this; guess I'll just pick a place. Like this: Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. Money that they recieve is controlled by a judge and HE has the say so about where it goes. One of the first places he looks at is the EMPLOYEE PAYCHECKS. So this statement is more than just false, it's a distortion of the facts. Calm down Lyvim. It is OK to disagree with me, but I think it is unnecessary to accuse me of distorting facts. This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served. The stockholders losing money is contingent on two things: 1) Chapter 11 protection does not work and the company is liquidated. 2) Chapter 11 does work and the company's stocks never increase. Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. Lyvim, you sound like a stockholder, hoping your investment will rebound. I understand, and believe me, I have been there. I hope Mandrake does well and the stock does also. My example was Worldcom and I doubt very much that their original stockholders will ever regain even a small fraction of their prior value . I do not know what will happen with Mandrake, nor am I familiar with the French version of bankruptcy the filed. In the WCOM case, remaining employees continued to be paid. However, money owed to laid off employees (severance packages, etc.) was considered unsecured debt. The judge had to approve any such payments, and they were reduced considerably. Let's just keep our fingers crossed for Mandrake. I am sure we will learn more in the near future. Then we can all make informed decisions. Mike --LX Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 11:30 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. --LX Lyvim, want to join me in a bet with anyone else? I've got $10 here that says Mandrake does more than just survive, they come back stronger than ever! :-) Hi Ron, No bet here. I agree that Mandrake will probably be back stronger than ever. Take that betting money and buy Mandrake stock, if it is still trading. It should be cheap after the filing. If wrong, you lose your $10. If right, you could make many times more than the $10. Much better than a bet, I think. :-) Mike Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 Jan 2003 7:40 pm, Mike Larson wrote: Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 11:30 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. --LX Lyvim, want to join me in a bet with anyone else? I've got $10 here that says Mandrake does more than just survive, they come back stronger than ever! :-) Hi Ron, No bet here. I agree that Mandrake will probably be back stronger than ever. Take that betting money and buy Mandrake stock, if it is still trading. It should be cheap after the filing. If wrong, you lose your $10. If right, you could make many times more than the $10. Much better than a bet, I think. :-) Don't think you have that option, though. As far as I understand it, all share dealing is frozen during the Chapter 11 period. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Lyvim Xaphir wrote at Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:58: Not only that, Miark...but more importantly he is suggesting that there be a fork of the Mandrake distro using of course Mandrake GPL'd distro packages and code. This is a very dangerous suggestion in the here and now, when the new Mandrake management team has not even had a chance to prove itself, it's direction, and it's attitude yet. In short, it seems premature and very disloyal, no matter what Ben Reser's claims to the contrary. I think Mandrakesoft should be given time to prove itself before somebody kicks them when they are down. It is an extremely poorly timed article which discredits itself with it's timing, no matter how good the negative points may be. Things don't happen overnight. There's still not a fork. There is still an opportunity for the staff to prove itself. You would have a point if I was setting up mirrors, CVS servers, build machines etc... instead of writing emails clarifying my position. Rather I've spent more time clarifying the position than I have getting my regular work done (which has nothing to do with Mandrake or a fork). Another point that I saw as completely off base from an entrepreneurial perspective was his scheme on pricing. To put it succinctly, it is completely backwards. If you undervalue your product's pricing, then it will be percieved as being of a lower value. If the product's pricing is higher, then it is percieved as being of higher value. Reser proposes lowering Mandrake's boxed set pricing even lower, even in the light of the financial situation of the company!!! Think about that, and while you do, consider the price of XP which is a far inferior product to Mandrake, and also consider that M$ is a profitable company making money off an inferior and defective version of spyware disguised as a half baked OS. Now then does it make sense to devalue your own honest, straightforward, robust and superior product?? This is the first mistake that young entrepreneurs make when starting their businesses. I've seen it happen nearly hundreds of times in startups; inexperienced startup peeps underpricing their stuff out of fear. If you underprice your stuff then your customers will undervalue your stuff. This not only applies to merchandise, but also to hourly labor; especially so in fact. You may not believe it but I just got off the phone six hours ago talking to a firm partner giving this very same advice cause they were making the very same mistakes. How are they doing? They are backsliding financially. And so will every other firm that makes this mistake; including mine. Seven years ago I learned the hard way. AnywayMandrake needs to keep their product priced at the level that it's worth, but within reach of the regular consumer. This to me means a compromise between the cost of some high priced winblows bullsh*t and the pocketbook of the middle class American. You assume that the solution in my mind to the a lack of value that I see in their product is to decrease price. Rather I think they should increase the value. If that means not releasing ISOs until after the boxed copies have been shipping for a while... then so be it. There are a variety of techniques Mandrake could use to increase the value of their boxed copies over the download edition. Most of which would mean giving less of their work away for free. I have mixed feelings about some of these changes. But I do think the value proposition for Mandrake's commercial offerings is weak. You assume incorrect that I'm an unexperienced entrepreneur. I'm well aware of the link between price and market perception. When I sold Universal Commerce, Inc. to Digital River in 1999 we had one of the more expensive transaction processing services. The business is still operating to this day, with roughly the same pricing and for a long time was the only profitable portion of their business... -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Fri, 2003-01-17 at 14:32, Mike Larson wrote: Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Whew, what a mule blinder perspective. Hi, Lyvim. I am not familiar with the term mule blinder perspective, but I assume it is a derogatory term for anyone that disagrees with you. I was raised in the countryside of the coastal plain of the Atlantic side of the US, which is a very beautiful place to be from, btw. In our region, it's not a derogatory term, it's used (evidenly only by peeps from my area) to describe what the panorama of a scene looks like when your peripheral vision is blinded, and you can only see what's ahead. I often use the term to describe my mental state to others when I'm diagnosing hardware or some system problem. Mule blinders are excellent for solving problems because your concentration is enhanced and sharply focused; however they not good for social occasions when more than one person is there and the conversation wanders from topic to topic. In your case, I used it to describe your apparent consideration of the Mandrake dilemma from a select negative pov. I said above feel free to disagree, not feel free to be insulting. However, often the written word can be misinterperated and if I have done so here, I apologize. :-) No insult meant, I assure you; it was only descriptive. And no apology is needed; it is evident I did not moderate my text enough. As I said, my friends hear mule blinders from me alot. To clarify my views: I like and use Mandrake and do think it will survive and come out of this stronger. However, I will wait for the situation to settle out before I send any more money to Mandrake. I believe it is your right to do with your money just as you please, just as it is my right to go out and buy an SUV with mine if I like, no matter what certain wacko twits might say to the otherwise. A person's money is their money and THEY make the determinations about it. That's one reason I'm definitely a Republican, and best buddies with Libertarians. Where to start on this; guess I'll just pick a place. Like this: Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. Money that they recieve is controlled by a judge and HE has the say so about where it goes. One of the first places he looks at is the EMPLOYEE PAYCHECKS. So this statement is more than just false, it's a distortion of the facts. Calm down Lyvim. It is OK to disagree with me, but I think it is unnecessary to accuse me of distorting facts. Here we might part ways for a bit, however; because as you stated above, Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste. While some money sent will go to old debts, not all money sent will go to old debts. This to me is definitely a distortion of the facts; but then you also say that it will be a waste. Now admittedly that is obviously an opinion; however it is just more inflammatory in regard to how things really are legally. The stockholders losing money is contingent on two things: 1) Chapter 11 protection does not work and the company is liquidated. 2) Chapter 11 does work and the company's stocks never increase. Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. Lyvim, you sound like a stockholder, hoping your investment will rebound. I understand, and believe me, I have been there. I hope Mandrake does well and the stock does also. I'm not a stockholder (yet) but I wish I was, because I do believe in the company. In another way I'm glad I'm not one, because then I am certain that people would point at me and say that my pov was tainted and that the reasons I was taking the time to write all that I have written was because of selfish reasons. I write what I write because I believe it, not because I stand to get monetary gain. Further, I believe that Mandrake will help the human race at large; because of statements like that, oftimes in the past I've been looked at as an employee of Mandrake; I'm not. And if I was, I feel strongly that it would be used as a weapon against me to obfuscate the things that I do state, which admittedly are kinda strong things at times. But that merely reflects the passion with which I do believe, which comes from knowledge and life experiences, and is not some kind of rabid thoughtless fanaticsm born out of chaos or misinformation. Or worse yet, liberalism. ;) My example was Worldcom and I doubt very much that their original stockholders will ever regain even a small fraction of their prior value. I do not know what will happen with Mandrake, nor am I familiar with the French version of bankruptcy the filed. In the WCOM case, remaining employees continued to be paid. However, money owed to laid off employees (severance packages, etc.) was considered unsecured debt. The judge had to approve
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Vahur Lokk wrote on Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:54: I read his proposal in a little bit different way. Supporters of Mandrake are currently doing big efforts to keep the company alive but it is true that our money goes to cover old debts, not to develop a new better distro. Ben shows a way to get rid of these old problems without losing our beloved distro. In the bitter end, if Mandrakesoft cannot survive, it will be the _only_ way. We are fortunate. Unlike many other distros Mandrake community is strong enough to have this option. Can it result in a fork? Yes it can. Think how different is our understanding of the same text. Is a fork dangerous? Yes it is. Mandrake community might be strong but splitting into two will weaken it significantly. Therefore timing is vital in taking real action. But being (at least mentally) prepared for that will help. Thank you. This is along the lines of what I intended by my article. It was an effort to create some discussion in the community about our options. It's obviously achieved that effect. Unfortunately, shortly after it was published things changed drastically. The bankruptcy filing offers an alternative opportunity out of the financial situation Mandrakesoft is in. It was certainly one that I considered. However, the Mandrake Community could not take that step. I am as interested in the coming months what Mandrakesoft will do to deal with these challenges. The bankruptcy filing gives me some hope that they will be able to survive without spending millions of euros towards things that don't really benefit the community. But ultimately, what got us here was poor business management. No matter how much I like the product, I will not desperately try to save a dying company. If it survives great. But I will not be standing there doing CPR on it. Especially, not when there is an alternative, as I presented, for the community. We'll all just have to wait and see what happens over the next few months. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 Jan 2003 10:33 pm, Ben Reser wrote: Vahur Lokk wrote on Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:54: I read his proposal in a little bit different way. Supporters of Mandrake are currently doing big efforts to keep the company alive but it is true that our money goes to cover old debts, not to develop a new better distro. Ben shows a way to get rid of these old problems without losing our beloved distro. In the bitter end, if Mandrakesoft cannot survive, it will be the _only_ way. We are fortunate. Unlike many other distros Mandrake community is strong enough to have this option. Can it result in a fork? Yes it can. Think how different is our understanding of the same text. Is a fork dangerous? Yes it is. Mandrake community might be strong but splitting into two will weaken it significantly. Therefore timing is vital in taking real action. But being (at least mentally) prepared for that will help. Thank you. This is along the lines of what I intended by my article. It was an effort to create some discussion in the community about our options. It's obviously achieved that effect. Unfortunately, shortly after it was published things changed drastically. The bankruptcy filing offers an alternative opportunity out of the financial situation Mandrakesoft is in. It was certainly one that I considered. However, the Mandrake Community could not take that step. I am as interested in the coming months what Mandrakesoft will do to deal with these challenges. The bankruptcy filing gives me some hope that they will be able to survive without spending millions of euros towards things that don't really benefit the community. But ultimately, what got us here was poor business management. But do bear in mind that it was not the current management that made those decisions, but the management put in by the venture capitalists, who, true to type, got out again when they found no quick buck, leaving a trail of devastation. No matter how much I like the product, I will not desperately try to save a dying company. If it survives great. But I will not be standing there doing CPR on it. Especially, not when there is an alternative, as I presented, for the community. We'll all just have to wait and see what happens over the next few months. Nothing more we can do, other than keeping positive until events prove otherwise. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:40:34 Miark wrote: Despite today's date, he doesn't know what's going on with Mandrake's bankruptcy. He complains about the low value of boxed Linux-Mandrake, and say that Mandrake Club is useless and that votes mean nothing. He's suggesting mutiny against Mandrake because it's a for-profit organization. Dude, whatever. This article is a waste of bits. It's odd that someone from the same timezone as myself can't imagine that the article was published on the same day but before the announcement came out. The article was published at: Jan 15 01:36 PST according to the timestamp on the file... That's 10:36 am CET (Paris time). I'm not sure exactly what time Mandrake published their announcement but it didn't show on /. until 10:05 am PST. About 9 hours after my article was written. So unless I'm a time traveler I couldn't have possibly have known about the bankruptcy filing. Further, I'd been writing the article since the 29th of December. It's timing was simply conicidence. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Anne Wilson wrote on 16 Jan 2003, 9:41 It's true that if it comes to the 'bitter end' then difficult decisions will have to be made, but I want to address the problem of where our money goes. Much play has been made of the fact that it will go to pay off old debts, as though that were a completely negative position. The reverse is the truth - debts mean interest payments and control by outsiders, both of which are very much against our interest. Only by getting rid of those debts will they have the money and control to pay for the employment of those people we value, and who will in the future provide us with the distros that we want to see. Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Well yes and no. If you make the assumption that we need Mandrakesoft then no it's not a waste of our money. My point was that we don't *NEED* Mandrakesoft. It may be desirable to have them around for reasons of selling the boxed sets, relationships with OEM, etc... But as far as the community having the distribution, Mandrakesoft's continued existence is not a prerequisite. As far as outside control. Mandrakesoft gave up control the instant they started taking VC money and started selling their stock on a public market. The company is in the hands of shareholders now (myself included). However, most of these shareholders are undoubtably not Free Software advocates. They are simply business people trying to make money on a market. Paying off the debts gets debtors off Mandrake's back. It will not get the shareholders off their backs. Unless they find money to buy back those shares, they'll never be free of that encumbrance as a company. Now the fact that they are public shouldn't necessarily be construed as negative. Free software is an unusual business model the world has never really dealt with before. It doesn't mean it can't work, but it does mean it might take some unusual business structures to make it work. The disadvantages of a public company is that shareholders are normally very nervous of unusual business structures. Ultimately, this fear will slow the companies moves down. The question is then, will they be able to move fast enough to survive in spite of this? This is a question to which I do not have the answer. Though we will all find out with time. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Fri, 2003-01-17 at 17:25, Ben Reser wrote: Lyvim Xaphir wrote at Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:58: Not only that, Miark...but more importantly he is suggesting that there be a fork of the Mandrake distro using of course Mandrake GPL'd distro packages and code. This is a very dangerous suggestion in the here and now, when the new Mandrake management team has not even had a chance to prove itself, it's direction, and it's attitude yet. In short, it seems premature and very disloyal, no matter what Ben Reser's claims to the contrary. I think Mandrakesoft should be given time to prove itself before somebody kicks them when they are down. It is an extremely poorly timed article which discredits itself with it's timing, no matter how good the negative points may be. Things don't happen overnight. There's still not a fork. There is still an opportunity for the staff to prove itself. You would have a point if I was setting up mirrors, CVS servers, build machines etc... instead of writing emails clarifying my position. Rather I've spent more time clarifying the position than I have getting my regular work done (which has nothing to do with Mandrake or a fork). Welcome to the list. g I note with considerable interest that this is the first post by you that I've ever seen, and my mail (in this incarnation) goes back to 2000. So I'm honored. ;) Another point that I saw as completely off base from an entrepreneurial perspective was his scheme on pricing. To put it succinctly, it is completely backwards. If you undervalue your product's pricing, then it will be percieved as being of a lower value. If the product's pricing is higher, then it is percieved as being of higher value. Reser proposes lowering Mandrake's boxed set pricing even lower, even in the light of the financial situation of the company!!! Think about that, and while you do, consider the price of XP which is a far inferior product to Mandrake, and also consider that M$ is a profitable company making money off an inferior and defective version of spyware disguised as a half baked OS. Now then does it make sense to devalue your own honest, straightforward, robust and superior product?? This is the first mistake that young entrepreneurs make when starting their businesses. I've seen it happen nearly hundreds of times in startups; inexperienced startup peeps underpricing their stuff out of fear. If you underprice your stuff then your customers will undervalue your stuff. This not only applies to merchandise, but also to hourly labor; especially so in fact. You may not believe it but I just got off the phone six hours ago talking to a firm partner giving this very same advice cause they were making the very same mistakes. How are they doing? They are backsliding financially. And so will every other firm that makes this mistake; including mine. Seven years ago I learned the hard way. AnywayMandrake needs to keep their product priced at the level that it's worth, but within reach of the regular consumer. This to me means a compromise between the cost of some high priced winblows bullsh*t and the pocketbook of the middle class American. You assume that the solution in my mind to the a lack of value that I see in their product is to decrease price. Rather I think they should increase the value. If that means not releasing ISOs until after the boxed copies have been shipping for a while... then so be it. There are a variety of techniques Mandrake could use to increase the value of their boxed copies over the download edition. Most of which would mean giving less of their work away for free. I have mixed feelings about some of these changes. But I do think the value proposition for Mandrake's commercial offerings is weak. WellI agree that there should be an increase in value, however it still remains true that this distro has more value to offer than just about any other one out there (yeah, I'm going out on a limb again here) according to Distrowatch. Also according to everything else I've seen and heard so far. This is something that should definitely not be ignored when you are considering the pricing of a product. I certainly don't think that the current situation(s), either with the company or the quality, suggest that the product should be priced beneath current levels. At the same time I do agree that downloadable ISO's have an effect; I'm just not convinced that it is a negative one. Mandrake would not be in trouble right now if it were not for the e-training debt crap; hell, they *were* showing a profit. You assume incorrect that I'm an unexperienced entrepreneur. I'm well aware of the link between price and market perception. When I sold Universal Commerce, Inc. to Digital River in 1999 we had one of the more expensive transaction processing services. The business is still operating to this day, with roughly
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 Jan 2003 10:43 pm, Ben Reser wrote: Anne Wilson wrote on 16 Jan 2003, 9:41 As far as outside control. Mandrakesoft gave up control the instant they started taking VC money and started selling their stock on a public market. The company is in the hands of shareholders now (myself included). However, most of these shareholders are undoubtably not Free Software advocates. They are simply business people trying to make money on a market. Paying off the debts gets debtors off Mandrake's back. It will not get the shareholders off their backs. Unless they find money to buy back those shares, they'll never be free of that encumbrance as a company. On what do you base this statement? I'm a shareholder, too, and I have never seen anything to suggest that the shareholders are, in fact, on their backs. The kind of shareholders you are talking about have been too nervy to put money in, which hasn't helped Mandrake's short-term need, but is probably better for them in the long term. And before I'm accused of talking Mandrake up to safeguard my investment, let me say that from the start I accepted that Mandrake were not in a strong financial position and I could lose the lot. I went in because I liked both the distro and the ethics of Mandrake, and happened to have a sum at that moment that I could gamble without worry. I chose to spend it on them rather than an extra holiday or some other unnecessary luxury. Now the fact that they are public shouldn't necessarily be construed as negative. Free software is an unusual business model the world has never really dealt with before. It doesn't mean it can't work, but it does mean it might take some unusual business structures to make it work. The disadvantages of a public company is that shareholders are normally very nervous of unusual business structures. Ultimately, this fear will slow the companies moves down. You could be right, if they are business investors. We really don't know enough about this to make judgements. The question is then, will they be able to move fast enough to survive in spite of this? This is a question to which I do not have the answer. Though we will all find out with time. My feeling is that the courts will decide the pace. That is, they will control the financial decisions. Hopefully this will enable the team to get on with what they are best at, developing a distro. Despite the struggles people have with betas, often forgetting that they are in fact betas, we like what we get. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 January 2003 01:24 pm, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: Hah! You freeloader! You just want make even more of a profit then the rest of us when their stocks start rising again=:o) Good luck, HarM Hehehehehehe -- /\ Dark Lord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 10:58:38PM +, Anne Wilson wrote: On what do you base this statement? I'm a shareholder, too, and I have never seen anything to suggest that the shareholders are, in fact, on their backs. The kind of shareholders you are talking about have been too nervy to put money in, which hasn't helped Mandrake's short-term need, but is probably better for them in the long term. And before I'm accused of talking Mandrake up to safeguard my investment, let me say that from the start I accepted that Mandrake were not in a strong financial position and I could lose the lot. I went in because I liked both the distro and the ethics of Mandrake, and happened to have a sum at that moment that I could gamble without worry. I chose to spend it on them rather than an extra holiday or some other unnecessary luxury. Anne, there is no way the majority of the shareholders are people like you and I. We make up a minute portion of the funding. If you refer to Mandrakesoft's web page about the company you will note rather large venture investors. These are undoubtably the people who installed the executives that got us in this mess... As far as I know those people are still shareholders. Yes this is an assumption. But Mandrake would have to have incurred significant debt to buy out these shareholders. What we know of the debt suggests it was more of contracts not share buybacks. I have no reason to doubt your honest intentions. You could be right, if they are business investors. We really don't know enough about this to make judgements. We know some info from here: http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/about ABN AMRO, Vivendi... those are definately business investors. I can't say I'm familiar with the rest. I would guess they've made significant investments in order to get their name on that page. I know neither yours nor my name show up on that page. :) My feeling is that the courts will decide the pace. That is, they will control the financial decisions. Hopefully this will enable the team to get on with what they are best at, developing a distro. Despite the struggles people have with betas, often forgetting that they are in fact betas, we like what we get. I have no idea really how French bankruptcy works. So I'm not sure. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 23:30, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 11:30 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. --LX Lyvim, want to join me in a bet with anyone else? I've got $10 here that says Mandrake does more than just survive, they come back stronger than ever! :-) -- /\ Dark Lord \/ I'm with ya, double or nothing. B-D --LX -- °°° Kernel 2.4.18-6mdk Mandrake Linux 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5-11mdkEvolution 1.0.2-5mdk Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Brandon Vanderberg wrote on Thu, 16 Jan 2003: 4 million euros, yikes. That's over 33,000 silver memberships or 57,000 power packs (from their site). I think Ben's got a good point. I'd like to see them isolate the distro from the company in some way. Otherwise, we'll have to have a big giant bake sale. We could make like little penguin and star cookies and stuff. ;) Well it appears that the actual debt is 2 million euros and that the other 2 was for development. In light of the bankruptcy proceedings, the sum will likely be much smaller than that when they actually pay it off. You better get started on those cookies though. :) -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Saturday 18 January 2003 01:04, Ben Reser wrote: Brandon Vanderberg wrote on Thu, 16 Jan 2003: 4 million euros, yikes. That's over 33,000 silver memberships or 57,000 power packs (from their site). I think Ben's got a good point. I'd like to see them isolate the distro from the company in some way. Otherwise, we'll have to have a big giant bake sale. We could make like little penguin and star cookies and stuff. ;) Well it appears that the actual debt is 2 million euros and that the other 2 was for development. In light of the bankruptcy proceedings, the sum will likely be much smaller than that when they actually pay it off. You better get started on those cookies though. :) Ummh, Where'd the nude guy with 'the 3 fingered salute' and the 'held-up' cd go? Now there's a money maker!=;o) Don't say he never made it through the reboot:o( Coasters anyone? HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Friday 17 January 2003 04:22 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: thread snipped to make smartass comment Can we smoke the peace pipe now? ;) --LX Depends. What exactly are we burning? -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thursday 16 January 2003 07:52, you wrote: On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 21:39, Miark wrote: Despite today's date, he doesn't know what's going on with Mandrake's bankruptcy. He complains about the low value of boxed Linux-Mandrake, and say that Mandrake Club is useless and that votes mean nothing. He's suggesting mutiny against Mandrake because it's a for-profit organization. Not only that, Miark...but more importantly he is suggesting that there be a fork of the Mandrake distro using of course Mandrake GPL'd distro packages and code. This is a very dangerous suggestion in the here and now, when the new Mandrake management team has not even had a chance to prove itself, it's direction, and it's attitude yet. In short, it seems premature and very disloyal, no matter what Ben Reser's claims to the contrary. I think Mandrakesoft should be given time to prove itself before somebody kicks them when they are down. It is an extremely poorly timed article which discredits itself with it's timing, no matter how good the negative points may be. I read his proposal in a little bit different way. Supporters of Mandrake are currently doing big efforts to keep the company alive but it is true that our money goes to cover old debts, not to develop a new better distro. Ben shows a way to get rid of these old problems without losing our beloved distro. In the bitter end, if Mandrakesoft cannot survive, it will be the _only_ way. We are fortunate. Unlike many other distros Mandrake community is strong enough to have this option. Can it result in a fork? Yes it can. Think how different is our understanding of the same text. Is a fork dangerous? Yes it is. Mandrake community might be strong but splitting into two will weaken it significantly. Therefore timing is vital in taking real action. But being (at least mentally) prepared for that will help. Wahur Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thursday 16 Jan 2003 9:41 am, Vahur Lokk wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 07:52, you wrote: On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 21:39, Miark wrote: Despite today's date, he doesn't know what's going on with Mandrake's bankruptcy. He complains about the low value of boxed Linux-Mandrake, and say that Mandrake Club is useless and that votes mean nothing. He's suggesting mutiny against Mandrake because it's a for-profit organization. Not only that, Miark...but more importantly he is suggesting that there be a fork of the Mandrake distro using of course Mandrake GPL'd distro packages and code. This is a very dangerous suggestion in the here and now, when the new Mandrake management team has not even had a chance to prove itself, it's direction, and it's attitude yet. In short, it seems premature and very disloyal, no matter what Ben Reser's claims to the contrary. I think Mandrakesoft should be given time to prove itself before somebody kicks them when they are down. It is an extremely poorly timed article which discredits itself with it's timing, no matter how good the negative points may be. I read his proposal in a little bit different way. Supporters of Mandrake are currently doing big efforts to keep the company alive but it is true that our money goes to cover old debts, not to develop a new better distro. Ben shows a way to get rid of these old problems without losing our beloved distro. In the bitter end, if Mandrakesoft cannot survive, it will be the _only_ way. We are fortunate. Unlike many other distros Mandrake community is strong enough to have this option. Can it result in a fork? Yes it can. Think how different is our understanding of the same text. Is a fork dangerous? Yes it is. Mandrake community might be strong but splitting into two will weaken it significantly. Therefore timing is vital in taking real action. But being (at least mentally) prepared for that will help. Wahur It's true that if it comes to the 'bitter end' then difficult decisions will have to be made, but I want to address the problem of where our money goes. Much play has been made of the fact that it will go to pay off old debts, as though that were a completely negative position. The reverse is the truth - debts mean interest payments and control by outsiders, both of which are very much against our interest. Only by getting rid of those debts will they have the money and control to pay for the employment of those people we value, and who will in the future provide us with the distros that we want to see. Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thursday 16 January 2003 12:14, you wrote: Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Sure but if Bens financial info is correct, there is no way to do it in few next years. Saving the company is going to hurt distro meanwhile. It already does. Wahur Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 21:27, Vahur Lokk wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 12:14, you wrote: Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Sure but if Bens financial info is correct, there is no way to do it in few next years. Saving the company is going to hurt distro meanwhile. It already does. Wahur Look - for all that anyone can speculate, and for all that we can theorise possible tactical business movements, it's not going to mean squat at all - because it's painfully obvious that the business administration of Mandrakesoft aren't really listening to what we have to say at all - although they're willing to take y'alls money and send you a boxed distro, they're just not going to listen. From a business perspective, we barely exist. Of course, we're the ones that are putting out money left and right to do what we can for something WE love, but they do not see it like that. They're thinking of numbers, and accounts, and debts, and everything else aside from the lowly little geek spending his $40 USD - just meat in the machine. For all intents and purposes, if anyone wants to get Mandrake back in line, it would come to a point of You give us something, and WE'll give YOU something (the WE being us - the end user). If they want to truly make a show of faith, they're going to have to do something quickly - and do something that completely shows the public that they truly do believe in a solid end-user focused distribution - and NOT collecting $100k or more USD in wages. Sorry I have to go off on a tangent here, but looking at a bigger picture, they've made some really bad judgements - especially in thinking that they could move to a business focus of online training and education - where others are already doing it - they're just putting themselves in an Arby's market - far down the rungs of the ladder from McDonald's - and by not quickly shifting business focus, they're getting stuck in the rut they've created with those bad business decisions. Personally, I'd tell someone to NOT purchase it - at least not now. Unless you're really a bleeding heart and WANT to chuck your money in their bin - otherwise, wait. See what happens. If they come out with 9.1 and it's a helluva lot more bug free than 9.0, I'll purchase a boxed set and purchase a membership. But until they can reproduce the type of distro they had with 8.2, and until they can stabilise enough to give me a warm fuzzy thinking they'll be around for a while longer, I'll have to wait. -- Thu Jan 16 21:30:00 EST 2003 9:30pm up 7:13, 4 users, load average: 0.02, 0.15, 0.16 -- |____ | kuhn media australia| | / ,, /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | |=| | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | | ;/ / | | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389| | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU | -- linux user:267497 * RH 8.0 * PC/Mac/Linux/Networking/Consulting -- Professor: Good news, everyone. Several years ago I tried to log onto AOL, and it just went through. Whee! We're online. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 02:27, Vahur Lokk wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 12:14, you wrote: Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Sure but if Bens financial info is correct, there is no way to do it in few next years. Saving the company is going to hurt distro meanwhile. It already does. 4 million euros, yikes. That's over 33,000 silver memberships or 57,000 power packs (from their site). I think Ben's got a good point. I'd like to see them isolate the distro from the company in some way. Otherwise, we'll have to have a big giant bake sale. We could make like little penguin and star cookies and stuff. ;) ~Brandon signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 21:59, Brandon Vanderberg wrote: On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 02:27, Vahur Lokk wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2003 12:14, you wrote: Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Sure but if Bens financial info is correct, there is no way to do it in few next years. Saving the company is going to hurt distro meanwhile. It already does. 4 million euros, yikes. That's over 33,000 silver memberships or 57,000 power packs (from their site). I think Ben's got a good point. I'd like to see them isolate the distro from the company in some way. Otherwise, we'll have to have a big giant bake sale. We could make like little penguin and star cookies and stuff. ;) ~Brandon I just keep seeing The BeOS Story running through my mind over and over again... -- Thu Jan 16 22:15:00 EST 2003 10:15pm up 7:58, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.05 -- |____ | kuhn media australia| | / ,, /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | |=| | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | | ;/ / | | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389| | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU | -- linux user:267497 * RH 8.0 * PC/Mac/Linux/Networking/Consulting -- Have you ever noticed that the people who are always trying to tell you `there's a time for work and a time for play' never find the time for play? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ how much longer will newbie exist I wonder ? john It seems to me with my limited insight to the true nature of the situation that the future of Mandrake is one of 2 ways, It can hope that a rich company will come along and take it over and offer the company's creditors so much in the pound to go away, in which case the existing shareholders will have their equity diluted to nothing. Such possible suiters are the likes of Macmillans, who after all have lost a potentially valuable part of their business, or possibly a rival company like Redhat or Sussie and who have deep pockets to pick up the pieces , reemploy the staff and put it back together again. I suspect the open source nature of the business will be further squeezed out.Who knows. The second possibliity is the explanation like Ben Reser espouses in , http://ben.reser.org/rants/invisible.cgi?month=01day=15year=2003t=00 Inwhich basically Mandrake or whatever it will be called goes back to it's origins as an open source developement based upon volunteer input and a small nucleus of staff responsible for administering the final product in some centrally paid site, funds for which will have to be found , most likely from offering it's own 3/5 cd sache of pressed cd's for sale direct to the general public at an affordable price, perhaps once a year.This will undoubedly maintain the open source nature of the product. As I understand it any such body, be it a company, charity, or whatever will have the rights to pick up the pieces under the GPL licence of what is left of the Mandrake product. Possibly there might be another middle way that I cannot see. However what ever happens from now on the strategy for developement has to be focussed upon building a distro that will install on current manufacutre equipement and be a real possibility for assemblers of computer equipement to install and offer to joe public on an everyday affordable alternative to M$. The days of expecting joe public to folk out bundles of $ for software are coming to an end.Whitness the contraction of the software industry around the world.It is only a passing phase and will come to an end but a return to the heady days of boom and bust are over , reality is sinking in. Owning a computer is expensive enough but the sheer cost of all the software to make it run has become it's growth stopper. Whatever happens from now on I wish Mandrake well. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Anne Wilson wrote: It's true that if it comes to the 'bitter end' then difficult decisions will have to be made, but I want to address the problem of where our money goes. Much play has been made of the fact that it will go to pay off old debts, as though that were a completely negative position. The reverse is the truth - debts mean interest payments and control by outsiders, both of which are very much against our interest. Only by getting rid of those debts will they have the money and control to pay for the employment of those people we value, and who will in the future provide us with the distros that we want to see. Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Anne Sorry Anne, but I disagree. If they thought they could somehow pay off the old debts, they would not have filed for bankruptcy. The _fact_ is that they have filed. Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. The purpose of bankruptcy is to reorganize a potentially viable company. What probably will happen is that the reorganized company will have its prior debt wiped out or reorganized into new (and less valuable) debt and/or restructured equity (new stock.which is different from the old, which will probably be wiped out and be worthless). For example, see Worldcom. It has huge debts which will be settled for pennies on the dollar. The stock, once $65.00 is now at $.16, and probably not worth that. When WCOM emerges from bankruptcy, if it does, the debt will be mostly gone and a leaner company, with a chance to survive, will exist. This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served. So, save your money and send it to Mandrake later, if you want to help. Otherwise, you just help Mandrake debtors salvage a little more of their investments. IANAL, so feel free to disagree, Mike Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Qui 16 Jan 2003 14:18, Anne Wilson wrote: Yet IANAL, You are right Anne! I've being looking for some info and this Chapter 11, would be a kind of preventive action from MandrakSoft to avoid having bankruptcy requested by others. So, they would have a situation their under-controll to fry to find their way out of such situation! Here in Brazil people call this situation, like this: Ok, I owe you but I'll pay you whenever I can! Of course, under rigid court control! That's totally legal and correct in many countries like USA, UK, France and Brazil as far as I know! Ricardo As I understand it a Chapter 11 is not the same as a bankruptcy. I believe the court's job is to evaluate and look at how it can re-organise, but also to look at commitments and see whether they are fair and must be met, or whether some serious negotation is required. I believe they can considerably mitigate the pain presently being felt. However, I also am not a lawyer. In response to the last comment, the shareholders' email said that further details of the situation and plan will be issued next week. All I ask is that we do not make things worse by spreading panic and gloom. When we have seen that second stage statement we may feel better able to judge. Anne -- == Linux user # 102240 = Machine # 96125 = Seti@home user == http://counter.li.org/ Get Counted! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 09:33, Mike Larson wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: It's true that if it comes to the 'bitter end' then difficult decisions will have to be made, but I want to address the problem of where our money goes. Much play has been made of the fact that it will go to pay off old debts, as though that were a completely negative position. The reverse is the truth - debts mean interest payments and control by outsiders, both of which are very much against our interest. Only by getting rid of those debts will they have the money and control to pay for the employment of those people we value, and who will in the future provide us with the distros that we want to see. Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money. Anne Sorry Anne, but I disagree. If they thought they could somehow pay off the old debts, they would not have filed for bankruptcy. The _fact_ is that they have filed. Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. The purpose of bankruptcy is to reorganize a potentially viable company. What probably will happen is that the reorganized company will have its prior debt wiped out or reorganized into new (and less valuable) debt and/or restructured equity (new stock.which is different from the old, which will probably be wiped out and be worthless). For example, see Worldcom. It has huge debts which will be settled for pennies on the dollar. The stock, once $65.00 is now at $.16, and probably not worth that. When WCOM emerges from bankruptcy, if it does, the debt will be mostly gone and a leaner company, with a chance to survive, will exist. This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served. So, save your money and send it to Mandrake later, if you want to help. Otherwise, you just help Mandrake debtors salvage a little more of their investments. IANAL, so feel free to disagree, Mike Whew, what a mule blinder perspective. Where to start on this; guess I'll just pick a place. Like this: Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. Money that they recieve is controlled by a judge and HE has the say so about where it goes. One of the first places he looks at is the EMPLOYEE PAYCHECKS. So this statement is more than just false, it's a distortion of the facts. This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served. The stockholders losing money is contingent on two things: 1) Chapter 11 protection does not work and the company is liquidated. 2) Chapter 11 does work and the company's stocks never increase. Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit. --LX -- °°° Kernel 2.4.18-6mdk Mandrake Linux 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5-11mdkEvolution 1.0.2-5mdk Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
$hit. On Tuesday 14 January 2003 11:30 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... So, now what... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
More info http://212.100.234.54/content/4/28859.html On Wednesday 15 January 2003 4:30 am, Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 11:59 am, Jody Cleveland wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... So, now what... The article says Chapter 11, so maybe they will be able to pull themselves out of this mess -- /\ Dark Lord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 11:54, et wrote: $hit. Yes, it does suck green donkey. On Tuesday 14 January 2003 11:30 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ --LX -- °°° Kernel 2.4.18-6mdk Mandrake Linux 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5-11mdkEvolution 1.0.2-5mdk Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wednesday 15 Jan 2003 H:30 am, Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ And on a more positive note http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2405 -- http://www.poogle.co.uk Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ how much longer will newbie exist I wonder ? john -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Title: RE: [newbie] Its official :-( -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ronald J. Hall Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Its official :-( On Wednesday 15 January 2003 11:59 am, Jody Cleveland wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... So, now what... The article says Chapter 11, so maybe they will be able to pull themselves out of this mess -- /\ Dark Lord \/ If I recall there have been several companies in the past to use chapter 11 to survive, gazillions actually, but Worldcomm and Chrysler to name a couple.
Re: RE: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
1/15/03 10:59:32 AM, Jody Cleveland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... So, now what... To me it sounds like business as usual except they have the bill collectors off their butt. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wednesday 15 Jan 2003 5:37 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ how much longer will newbie exist I wonder ? If it doesn't cost much to run it may well be seen as an asset. Keeping us with the company must be a good thing Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wednesday 15 Jan 2003 3:40 pm, Damian Gatabria wrote: To me it sounds like business as usual except they have the bill collectors off their butt. Right on. I was afraid i would get a loonie label in my forehead, but that is exactly what i was thinking about. Damian. Right now it's probably the best thing they could do. I have been expecting something of the sort for a long time, and this is definitely not the worst that could have happened. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:41:39 -0800 Myers, Dennis R NWO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The article says Chapter 11, so maybe they will be able to pull themselves out of this mess Damn right. I don't see this as bad news at all. In fact, it's good news because 1) It allows Mandrakesoft to _continue_ working, and 2) Without that immense debt burden, MDK will be able to work better than they did before. Good for them. Good for us! Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
I hope you were right. 1) It allows Mandrakesoft to _continue_ working, and 2) Without that immense debt burden, MDK will be able to work better than they did before. Good for them. Good for us! Miark -- Francisco Alcaraz Ariza Departamento de Biología Vegetal Universidad de Murcia Campus de Espinardo E-30100 Murcia España (Spain) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
I think I will go and buy a bunch of stuff at the Mandrake store, cause if it helps, great, and if they (we) disappear, it will be a good collectable. On Wednesday 15 Jan 2003 5:37 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: Ronald J. Hall wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... Follow this link... :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/20061/ how much longer will newbie exist I wonder ? If it doesn't cost much to run it may well be seen as an asset. Keeping us with the company must be a good thing Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:59, Miark wrote: On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:41:39 -0800 Myers, Dennis R NWO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The article says Chapter 11, so maybe they will be able to pull themselves out of this mess Damn right. I don't see this as bad news at all. In fact, it's good news because 1) It allows Mandrakesoft to _continue_ working, and 2) Without that immense debt burden, MDK will be able to work better than they did before. Good for them. Good for us! Miark Any which way, this is not born out of luxury! It certainly doesn't attract investors. I've renewed my club silver-membership so often lately I don't even know any more when (if?) it expires. I've paid for upto 9.1 boxed sets (that is going to be the best release yet!) and will pay whatever follows..you bet!! Mandrake is IMHO the best stable desktop distrib out there and the one staying 'closest' to it's users and the free-software spirit. They're worth risking a few bucks for! Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
Same here. I just renewed this afternoon. Go Mandrake! Miark On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:37:31 -0600 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: _We_ can help. Join the Club, or if you're already a member, renew early. I did a few weeks ago, I'm confident Mandrake will continue. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 18:45, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:59, Miark wrote: On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:41:39 -0800 Any which way, this is not born out of luxury! It certainly doesn't attract investors. I've renewed my club silver-membership so often lately I don't even know any more when (if?) it expires. I've paid for upto 9.1 boxed sets (that is going to be the best release yet!) and will pay whatever follows..you bet!! Mandrake is IMHO the best stable desktop distrib out there and the one staying 'closest' to it's users and the free-software spirit. They're worth risking a few bucks for! Good luck, HarM __ One problem is that if you do not have a debit or credit card, you can not join the Mandrake club. I am looking forward to the 9.1 release and plan on buying the power pack when it is released. I am also going to look into buying OTC stock in the company. If more people buy stock, it might attract bigger investors. I have been a big fan of Mandrake for a long time and it has finally reached the point where I am using it exclusively. I have not touched my winXP box in days. The fact that it is desktop friendly keeps me using it. -- walt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 23:20, walt wrote: One problem is that if you do not have a debit or credit card, you can not join the Mandrake club. I am looking forward to the 9.1 release and plan on buying the power pack when it is released. I am also going to look into buying OTC stock in the company. If more people buy stock, it might attract bigger investors. I have been a big fan of Mandrake for a long time and it has finally reached the point where I am using it exclusively. I have not touched my winXP box in days. The fact that it is desktop friendly keeps me using it. Did you give 'paypal' a try? I use that next to my credit card. Good Luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 11:28, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: On Wednesday 15 January 2003 23:20, walt wrote: One problem is that if you do not have a debit or credit card, you can not join the Mandrake club. I am looking forward to the 9.1 release and plan on buying the power pack when it is released. I am also going to look into buying OTC stock in the company. If more people buy stock, it might attract bigger investors. I have been a big fan of Mandrake for a long time and it has finally reached the point where I am using it exclusively. I have not touched my winXP box in days. The fact that it is desktop friendly keeps me using it. Did you give 'paypal' a try? I use that next to my credit card. Good Luck, HarM O! A Paypal user! My wife and I like Paypal users! Wanna by some doggie coats? (g) http://member.rivernet.com.au/kaytee/srp/index.html WE LIKE PAYPAL! (Oh yeah!) -- Thu Jan 16 10:40:00 EST 2003 10:40am up 2 days, 2:21, 4 users, load average: 0.04, 0.11, 0.15 -- |____ | kuhn media australia| | / ,, /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | |=| | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | | ;/ / | | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389| | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU | -- * linux user:267497 * RH 7.3+ * PC/Mac/Linux/Networking/Consulting -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 23:44, Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 11:28, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: On Wednesday 15 January 2003 23:20, walt wrote: One problem is that if you do not have a debit or credit card, you can not join the Mandrake club. I am looking forward to the 9.1 release and plan on buying the power pack when it is released. I am also going to look into buying OTC stock in the company. If more people buy stock, it might attract bigger investors. I have been a big fan of Mandrake for a long time and it has finally reached the point where I am using it exclusively. I have not touched my winXP box in days. The fact that it is desktop friendly keeps me using it. Did you give 'paypal' a try? I use that next to my credit card. Good Luck, HarM O! A Paypal user! My wife and I like Paypal users! Wanna by some doggie coats? (g) http://member.rivernet.com.au/kaytee/srp/index.html WE LIKE PAYPAL! (Oh yeah!) DOWN BOY DOWN and stopping wagging that furry thing, fer chr..t's sake! Good fun, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I would suggest that everyone read the following comment by long-time contributer Ben Reser on Mandrakes financial situation: ¨Why the Mandrake Community should move on...¨ http://ben.reser.org/rants/invisible.cgi?month=01day=15year=2003t=00 Sascha Noyes On Wednesday 15 January 2003 12:41 pm, Myers, Dennis R NWO wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ronald J. Hall Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Its official :-( On Wednesday 15 January 2003 11:59 am, Jody Cleveland wrote: Mandrake has filed for bankruptcy... So, now what... The article says Chapter 11, so maybe they will be able to pull themselves out of this mess - -- Please encrypt all correspondence. PGP key available from: http://individual.utoronto.ca/noyes/snoyes.asc - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+JfmrgzJdfX+cTW8RAoA4AJ0btyzsnn4nn7lBvbFUUOhh49xgDgCdEsS+ yYXZKGTEhr4Yr7fYWxJ3p3I= =FPjm -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 21:39, Miark wrote: Despite today's date, he doesn't know what's going on with Mandrake's bankruptcy. He complains about the low value of boxed Linux-Mandrake, and say that Mandrake Club is useless and that votes mean nothing. He's suggesting mutiny against Mandrake because it's a for-profit organization. Not only that, Miark...but more importantly he is suggesting that there be a fork of the Mandrake distro using of course Mandrake GPL'd distro packages and code. This is a very dangerous suggestion in the here and now, when the new Mandrake management team has not even had a chance to prove itself, it's direction, and it's attitude yet. In short, it seems premature and very disloyal, no matter what Ben Reser's claims to the contrary. I think Mandrakesoft should be given time to prove itself before somebody kicks them when they are down. It is an extremely poorly timed article which discredits itself with it's timing, no matter how good the negative points may be. Another point that I saw as completely off base from an entrepreneurial perspective was his scheme on pricing. To put it succinctly, it is completely backwards. If you undervalue your product's pricing, then it will be percieved as being of a lower value. If the product's pricing is higher, then it is percieved as being of higher value. Reser proposes lowering Mandrake's boxed set pricing even lower, even in the light of the financial situation of the company!!! Think about that, and while you do, consider the price of XP which is a far inferior product to Mandrake, and also consider that M$ is a profitable company making money off an inferior and defective version of spyware disguised as a half baked OS. Now then does it make sense to devalue your own honest, straightforward, robust and superior product?? This is the first mistake that young entrepreneurs make when starting their businesses. I've seen it happen nearly hundreds of times in startups; inexperienced startup peeps underpricing their stuff out of fear. If you underprice your stuff then your customers will undervalue your stuff. This not only applies to merchandise, but also to hourly labor; especially so in fact. You may not believe it but I just got off the phone six hours ago talking to a firm partner giving this very same advice cause they were making the very same mistakes. How are they doing? They are backsliding financially. And so will every other firm that makes this mistake; including mine. Seven years ago I learned the hard way. AnywayMandrake needs to keep their product priced at the level that it's worth, but within reach of the regular consumer. This to me means a compromise between the cost of some high priced winblows bullsh*t and the pocketbook of the middle class American. --LX -- °°° Kernel 2.4.18-6mdk Mandrake Linux 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5-11mdkEvolution 1.0.2-5mdk Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Its official.... :-(
On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 23:05, Dennis Myers wrote: I find that an opposing point of view always helps me focus on my own perceptions and reasoning behind my point of view. This is one of those articles that helped me focus. I agree that the so called value of Mandrake Club is minimal for goods but not for services. It serves to bring a certain feeling of ownership and respect for others in the Mandrake community. Value in the boxed set of Power Pack that I have is huge, compared to MS windows offerings. I have Star Office which costs $79 us on the open market and 1200+ other apps which I can access at 400MBS instead of the 20Kbs over the internet. I have a tangible finished product in my hands that looks better than the 3 cd's I d/l'd before I bought the box. (shallow I know) and I have the satisfaction in knowing that I am helping in my own small way to keep some talented people gainfully employed, even if overworked. Sooner or later the past errors in judgement catch up with us all, what is important is how we deal with the present and not moan and groan about the past. MandrakeSoft is dealing with the present and I wish them the best. It is not easy to be competitive in their business and in these times. I will stick to the end or the start of the beginning whichever it may be. Fade out with anthem and setting sun...: ) -- Dennis M. linux user # 180842 True enough; there was actually value in some places of this article. One thing that I carried away from that article was a very enhanced impression of Vincent Danen. I had no idea that he was flaming the midnight oil out the firehose like he was, or that he was an employee of Mandrakesoft. This man really needs to get some recognition for what he has done for our community, in much the same regard that Todd needed some recognition. What's the use in working your a$$ off and nobody knowing about it? That's the kind of thankless treatment that runs people off. It's bad enough to work for substandard pay but still maintain a high standard of excellence, but it's completely unacceptable to be doing that and yet be unrecognized for it. This may perhaps be the REAL reason for the Ben Reser article. --LX -- °°° Kernel 2.4.18-6mdk Mandrake Linux 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5-11mdkEvolution 1.0.2-5mdk Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
