Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
shane wrote: On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:48 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. if we did have a directory of such things it might look like this http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/User_Groups/ and i might be the editor there. ;) Bookmarked, thanks Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
LinuxFormat is also a nice mag in its own right. I bought a copy the last time I visited my motherland, and what did I find sellotaped to it but Mandrake 8.2! It's worth the subscription. I get the DVD every month. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 31 May 2002 9:29 pm, shane wrote: actually, it gets worse, they bought 30 win 98 copys to install, then found it was dog slow on those machines, bought new machines. win 98 at $65 a pop times 30 = $1950 30 new machines to run said software = $33000 being smart enough to know linux means multiple installs from one purchased cd = priceless One of the machines I'm currently using is one of 40 from a project which had some sort of customised configuration of Windows 2000. When the project ended and the machines reverted to the general pool it turned out that the 'company build' of Windows 95 (!!) wouldn't install on them. So they were lying in a corner, unused; I'd say easily £60,000 worth of kit (then high-end Dell machines). Now, if they installed Mandrake 8.2 they could have them all working for about 30 minutes per machine for no cost except labour; all the machines are identical and mine installed straight off from the box with everything recognised and working. StarOffice, Evolution and Konqueror would reproduce the 'standard desktop'. (Of course, much of this is down to politics and dogmatism - the IS people justifying themselves by having a slightly customised version of Windows, jealously guarded and only installable from password-protected shares after fussing around with boot floppies, to stop people installing it themselves and rendering their job irrelevant). Alastair - -- Alastair Scott (London, United Kingdom) http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8+JDdCv59vFiSU4YRAqqpAJ9EYDrCUxw8pOaG1OoB3plgxlqfFACfceVH RGQjJfD5X9bTEbnaNr573mE= =mFn7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
Alastair Scott wrote: (Of course, much of this is down to politics and dogmatism - the IS people justifying themselves by having a slightly customised version of Windows, jealously guarded and only installable from password-protected shares after fussing around with boot floppies, to stop people installing it themselves and rendering their job irrelevant). Isn't that one (almost) everyone does -- do things in the interest of keeping their job regardless of the relationship to the basic objective of the job? I mean, isn't that what copyright, patents, trade secrets, etc. are all about? Isn't that what the RIAA and so forth are fighting about? Isn't that why there are laws in most american towns about who can be a barber / hairdresser, and who can and cannot buy hair dressing tools / supplies? Isn't that what Microsoft is trying to do? And IBM, HP, Sun, Solaris, Apple, ...? Isn't that why we have millions of lines (pages?) of laws? Isn't that what farm subsidies are all about? Don't welfare workers want to continue to have clients? Don't drug enforcers want drug traffickers? Is there an alternate approach? just today's cynical $.02 Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thursday 30 May 2002 8:48 pm, Anne Wilson wrote: shane wrote: On Wednesday 29 May 2002 09:44 pm, Damian G did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: another part of the problem is that since the sooftware can be obtained free, the support by those who (usually) know it best is what should be charged for. yes, there is still great user support, but sometimes you need more. look at it as the evolution of free trade on the net. OK - but in Wins, I can manage most things, and visit a friendly professional for paid help when I'm really stuck. Where do I find a similar expert in linux, where I could take my box in on a Saturday morning and spend an hour or two watching, talking, listening and learning? Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. Anne Of course there is :-) http://www.wylug.lug.org.uk/ Just take along all your computers and lan cables to the next meeting. derek Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
OK - but in Wins, I can manage most things, and visit a friendly professional for paid help when I'm really stuck. Where do I find a similar expert in linux, where I could take my box in on a Saturday morning and spend an hour or two watching, talking, listening and learning? Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. Anne Well this might not help you right away but the growth rate of Linux seems to be fast enough that that local professional help should be avalable soon, just a matter of time. Maybe any day or maybe a few years. If you do a search and find the statistics for linux growth and extend the curve into the future a bit I think that you will see that more local help is not to far off in the future. Maybe it's time to start a local users groupe in your area. Marc Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:48 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. if we did have a directory of such things it might look like this http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/User_Groups/ and i might be the editor there. ;) -- Microsoft, Windows, Windows 98, Bugs, Lacking Features, IRQ Conflicts, System Crashes, Non-Functional Multitasking, The Y2K Problem and The Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) are registered trademarks of Microsoft Corp., Redmond, Washington, USA. shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 30 May 2002 8:48 pm, Anne Wilson wrote: OK - but in Wins, I can manage most things, and visit a friendly professional for paid help when I'm really stuck. Where do I find a similar expert in linux, where I could take my box in on a Saturday morning and spend an hour or two watching, talking, listening and learning? Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. Apart from the excellent suggestion by Derek, do you have a local LETS (time bank) scheme? http://www.letslinkuk.org/ http://www.timebanks.co.uk/ There's one here, and I'm thinking of joining as a 'Linux person' :) Alastair - -- Alastair Scott (London, United Kingdom) http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE894mNCv59vFiSU4YRAvLwAJ4wr9fPMxvculYDa6vhoJmfV3iaKQCeMcQL GOFHfKRm1slpI/0hSJNZDac= =kRTW -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Friday 31 May 2002 10:34 am, Shane wrote: On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:48 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. if we did have a directory of such things it might look like this http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/User_Groups/ and i might be the editor there. ;) FWIW: The British magazine, LinuxFormat, has a list of UK LUG's in each issue. The March issue shows 69 LUG's. It's also available online at www.linuxformat.co.uk/links.php; another listing is at www.lug.org.uk. The West Yorkshire LUG is at www.wylug.org.uk; there are other LUG's in Huddersfield, Manchester and Blackburn. Happy hunting. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 19:26, Carroll Grigsby wrote: On Friday 31 May 2002 10:34 am, Shane wrote: On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:48 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. if we did have a directory of such things it might look like this http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/User_Groups/ and i might be the editor there. ;) FWIW: The British magazine, LinuxFormat, has a list of UK LUG's in each issue. The March issue shows 69 LUG's. It's also available online at www.linuxformat.co.uk/links.php; another listing is at www.lug.org.uk. The West Yorkshire LUG is at www.wylug.org.uk; there are other LUG's in Huddersfield, Manchester and Blackburn. Happy hunting. LinuxFormat is also a nice mag in its own right. I bought a copy the last time I visited my motherland, and what did I find sellotaped to it but Mandrake 8.2! Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 23:24, Robin wrote: On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 19:26, Carroll Grigsby wrote: On Friday 31 May 2002 10:34 am, Shane wrote: On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:48 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. if we did have a directory of such things it might look like this http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/User_Groups/ and i might be the editor there. ;) FWIW: The British magazine, LinuxFormat, has a list of UK LUG's in each issue. The March issue shows 69 LUG's. It's also available online at www.linuxformat.co.uk/links.php; another listing is at www.lug.org.uk. The West Yorkshire LUG is at www.wylug.org.uk; there are other LUG's in Huddersfield, Manchester and Blackburn. Happy hunting. LinuxFormat is also a nice mag in its own right. I bought a copy the last time I visited my motherland, and what did I find sellotaped to it but Mandrake 8.2! Sir Robin Totally off topic now.. but my Mozilla project Hermes gets _two_ pictures in this months Linux Format!! I'm so proud!!! -- Azrael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Friday 31 May 2002 04:29 pm, shane wrote: On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:28 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: 9 months later some jack@ss from the district office formatted the harddrives because we don't have a license for that OS! You must have wept actually, it gets worse, they bought 30 win 98 copys to install, then found it was dog slow on those machines, bought new machines. win 98 at $65 a pop times 30 = $1950 30 new machines to run said software = $33000 being smart enough to know linux means multiple installs from one purchased cd = priceless A comment and a question: First, given the current emphasis on TCO, you haven't included the labor hours expended on this disaster. Be sure to include all of the planning meetings that were held to make sure that everything went smoothly. Second, maybe I read too much Dilbert, but did the cretin that made these decisions have pointy hair? -- cmg (splitting my sides at someone else's grief) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Friday 31 May 2002 06:30 pm, you wrote: On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 23:24, Robin wrote: On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 19:26, Carroll Grigsby wrote: On Friday 31 May 2002 10:34 am, Shane wrote: On Thursday 30 May 2002 12:48 pm, Anne Wilson did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Perhaps we need some sort of directory of such help. There must be someone here in West Yorkshire, but I've not come across him/her. if we did have a directory of such things it might look like this http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/User_Group s/ and i might be the editor there. ;) FWIW: The British magazine, LinuxFormat, has a list of UK LUG's in each issue. The March issue shows 69 LUG's. It's also available online at www.linuxformat.co.uk/links.php; another listing is at www.lug.org.uk. The West Yorkshire LUG is at www.wylug.org.uk; there are other LUG's in Huddersfield, Manchester and Blackburn. Happy hunting. LinuxFormat is also a nice mag in its own right. I bought a copy the last time I visited my motherland, and what did I find sellotaped to it but Mandrake 8.2! Sir Robin Totally off topic now.. but my Mozilla project Hermes gets _two_ pictures in this months Linux Format!! I'm so proud!!! -- Azrael Azrael: I'll make a note to look for it when it finally shows up here -- in another two months. I just got the April issue today at the local Borders. It's an excellent read, though, and well worth reading. Most of the other Linux magazines seem to be aimed more at developers, sysadmins and other propeller heads, but LinuxFormat has a ton of material for end users. BTW, was there ever any consensus as to whether Marc should buy some Mandrake stock? -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 31 May 2002 04:39 pm, Carroll Grigsby did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: BTW, was there ever any consensus as to whether Marc should buy some Mandrake stock? well i don't know about Marc, but when my 401 rolls over i am spending half of it on Mandrake, and i don't care if i see a return. - -- Fundimentalism stops a thinking mind. shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8+BhkBwq+ZwvIN/oRAsfdAJ90dkp9ADG3qDLZMJaaRZikh4x98gCdHMll s6K6CxZFeAVpdM2A/xRFplo= =9Az3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 31 May 2002 03:37 pm, Carroll Grigsby did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: First, given the current emphasis on TCO, you haven't included the labor hours expended on this disaster. Be sure to include all of the planning meetings that were held to make sure that everything went smoothly. Second, maybe I read too much Dilbert, but did the cretin that made these decisions have pointy hair? -- cmg (splitting my sides at someone else's grief) go ahead, laugh at my pain... :P and no the cretin involved is bald, but still a PHB. - -- The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -DOUGLAS ADAMS, Author shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8+BruBwq+ZwvIN/oRAvsMAJ9W4HB2wht9bQ5maxAVveZ06NEPIQCdGex4 10Tx79mLuxk45RxiCpKLnao= =M7WN -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thu, 30 May 2002 15:41, Brian Parish wrote: On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 07:44, FemmeFatale wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: On Wednesday 29 May 2002 11:13 am, Dave Conroy wrote: It's only a matter of time before lot'sa people will need to unlearn Windows, and learn somethin else. Specially with M$'s new fangled SA programs (price gouging scams), and the horrific security holes that all M$ OS's and software feature. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas a) won't happen soon enough b) won't happen. Why? Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. -- Femme I agree if you are talking DIY installs, but having just set up my 83 year old father-in-law on 8.2, I don't agree on the usability side. Anyone who doesn't know about computers either has a friend who installs it, or buys the machine with the OS (W$) preinstalled. Ask the average user to install W$ from scratch and the gotchas would come just as fast as they do with Mandrake. So this is the real difference from my viewpoint. The guy next door knows about W$, but not about linux. Given someone like me to set it up and provide an icon for each thing you want to do, Mandrake is not a problem for the novice. It's a telling point that having changed the 83 year old over to linux from W98, the number of support calls I have received is so far zero - used to average several per week. Brian Yep, this is the way that i see things too. Give em a configured Linux computer with a user login and they are less likely to roast it, it is less likely to hiccup, and they can learn the operating system if they choose. If they find something else they want installed and configured, why can't we do that for them too. I have seen more balls up computers of people that have indiscriminately loaded than any other damage excepting virus. When they feel they are ready to start using the root password, then give it to them. Most USERS would never ask for it. Remember most that come to Linux at present are at least semi computer literate and are used to playing under the hood. Time we started touting the invulnerability of this idea. Thus: * Linux is virtually virus free * A well set up box is more idiot proof by far * what you break in your own directory is often easily fixed. i.e. delete the .kde directory and log out, then log back in again. * Linux is far more standards compliant * Low cost, even pre-installed I'm sure there are others. Now where is that MySQL front end to complete the picture? Others have already said how it is not a problem to migrate USERs to Linux from windows. How many businesses happily migrated staff from Wordperfect to Word because a boss decided it looked better. -- Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
--- Henry B. Wangle Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] : On Wednesday 29 May 2002 18:20, you wrote: Well not wanting to beat my own drum but anyone who say's that Linux is not ready for the desktop needs to relook at it . Case in point my wife of 22 years now age 44 had 2 strokes that paralyzed her left side and hurt her mental capabilities as well . I have been gradually weaning her away from windows for about 6 months now and she has very little problems with Linux . Now considering that she has some short term memory loss and some long term memory loss I think that say's bundles for the ease of use of Mandrake. Balance that against that against the fact that she had used windows for about 6 years prior to this with numerous problems with it both pre stroke and post stroke (2 Strokes back to back in Dec of 1998 ) She love it and its ease of use. I on the otherhand am still learning everyday and get myself into more trouble than if I'd just stick with the basic Mandrake setup, Being a tinkerer of sorts I'm inclined to play to my deteriment on occassion and Thanks to the many willing and Knowledgeable Penguins out here in Newbie land ( Civilme, Sridhar, Tom, and yes even Femme, as well as many more of you ) I'm able to fix most of my Foulups and bloopers. By the way I'm also a lurker and 9 times out of 10 someone must be psychic as one of you usually address the problem with a solution before I get to ask for help. Try that with windows and see if you get the same results. On the unfortunate side there are still a few programs that we still have to depend on before I can be totally windows free ( please hurry Quicken, So Now Your Cooking, Family tree , and Vehicle Records Systems.) . With that said I agree with Miark as to the fact it is ready now .Now off my Stump and back into the quiet existence again I go. Hank Wangle SSGT Usmc(retired) Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. I couldn't disagree more. Gnome and KDE are every bit as powerful as Winsux (more, really), and just as easy (well, KDE, anyway). This was true of my own conversion (a computer-literate chap), and for my wife (a computer-illiterate lass). I'd say Linux is ready for the desktop right now! Miark Well said both of you! As for me I couldn't agree more with you Miark (You really rock when you want to!). Two days ago I installed LM 8.2 to vet-doctor friend of mine. I even managed to get FreeVet to work and I got a 2 months free visit and vaccination for my 3 dog's.He's a happy man. He couldn't afford to pay M$Office or Antivirus things but after seing his old DELL Latidude 300Mhz PC to work and doing so many things he happily went in Mandrake Store and order via their web-page the Pro-Suite edition. He's even convinced to be a Silver Member. I don't know though if he has done it yet. Cheers to both of you Dimitris Do You Yahoo!? @yahoo.grhttp://www.otenet.gr Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
Brian Parish wrote: On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 07:44, FemmeFatale wrote: I agree if you are talking DIY installs, but having just set up my 83 year old father-in-law on 8.2, I don't agree on the usability side. Anyone who doesn't know about computers either has a friend who installs it, or buys the machine with the OS (W$) preinstalled. Ask the average user to install W$ from scratch and the gotchas would come just as fast as they do with Mandrake. So this is the real difference from my viewpoint. The guy next door knows about W$, but not about linux. Given someone like me to set it up and provide an icon for each thing you want to do, Mandrake is not a problem for the novice. It's a telling point that having changed the 83 year old over to linux from W98, the number of support calls I have received is so far zero - used to average several per week. Brian OK Brian wins. He got my point across better than I did. I bow humbly to his usage of english. Ty Brian. -- Femme Good Decisions You boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
another case in point... my girlfriend has used only windows at work... I gave her a windows PC at home for a present.. (the kind that keeps on giving, virus's defrag etc.. :-) two months ago, I told her I was going to swap her to linux.. she said can I still read email and browse web and write documents and make spreadsheets... I said yes.. she said OK... and hasn't had a problem. its not that hard anymore,, only the install and config are hard... I am not a fan of microshaft, but I have to admit that their config and add/remove stuff is still better then Mandrake's.. or any other *nix.. fortunatly thats the only area where they are ahead... rgds frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Henry B. Wangle Jr. Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2002 1:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock On Wednesday 29 May 2002 18:20, you wrote: Well not wanting to beat my own drum but anyone who say's that Linux is not ready for the desktop needs to relook at it . Case in point my wife of 22 years now age 44 had 2 strokes that paralyzed her left side and hurt her mental capabilities as well . I have been gradually weaning her away from windows for about 6 months now and she has very little problems with Linux . Now considering that she has some short term memory loss and some long term memory loss I think that say's bundles for the ease of use of Mandrake. Balance that against that against the fact that she had used windows for about 6 years prior to this with numerous problems with it both pre stroke and post stroke (2 Strokes back to back in Dec of 1998 ) She love it and its ease of use. I on the otherhand am still learning everyday and get myself into more trouble than if I'd just stick with the basic Mandrake setup, Being a tinkerer of sorts I'm inclined to play to my deteriment on occassion and Thanks to the many willing and Knowledgeable Penguins out here in Newbie land ( Civilme, Sridhar, Tom, and yes even Femme, as well as many more of you ) I'm able to fix most of my Foulups and bloopers. By the way I'm also a lurker and 9 times out of 10 someone must be psychic as one of you usually address the problem with a solution before I get to ask for help. Try that with windows and see if you get the same results. On the unfortunate side there are still a few programs that we still have to depend on before I can be totally windows free ( please hurry Quicken, So Now Your Cooking, Family tree , and Vehicle Records Systems.) . With that said I agree with Miark as to the fact it is ready now .Now off my Stump and back into the quiet existence again I go. Hank Wangle SSGT Usmc(retired) Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. I couldn't disagree more. Gnome and KDE are every bit as powerful as Winsux (more, really), and just as easy (well, KDE, anyway). This was true of my own conversion (a computer-literate chap), and for my wife (a computer-illiterate lass). I'd say Linux is ready for the desktop right now! Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
I agree, but mandrake has not dumbed down the newbie install enough... things to get rid off.. 1. Choise of print server setup.. default to cups or whatever unless they click advanced and change it.. 2. Ditto sound server.. 3. autodetect windows machines on network and presetup Komba2 and put network neighbourhood similiar link on desktop. 4. Improve Java and flash integration/installation in browsers. 5. revert back to 7.2 type rpmdrake and add the 8.2+ functionality to it.. they fixed something that wasn't broken.. (the interface) 6. diskdrake in newbie install should have only a couple of options and an advanced button.. the two options should be install mandrake alongside windows and install mandrake instead of windows the advanced button can have everything else. I design and write apps for newbies.. (mostly CGI stuff.) and I apparently have talent designin stuff that anyone can use.. (if they can read) and thats what windows did.. they dumbed the whole thing down.. (they did it to the whole XP os.. but luckily you can undo it.) just some thoughts... rgds Frank.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Marc Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2002 8:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock This may be a bit off topic but most likley of intrist to a few folks here. The other day I pulled the last of the money that I had in the stock market out. Lucky for me that everything else I had in the market I had pulled out several years ago before the whole market went way down. I really know next to nothing about the stock market and have very little intrest in it. In spite of this I got to thinking about all the stuff that I had read in the past year or so here and a number of other places about all the people , goverment agencys, school districts, colleges and corperations that have been dropping microsoft like a hot rock and all the bad press that microsoft has had a number of places around the world. It seemed to me that this was a trend that was going to continue. Also it seemed to me that it would start to catch on more in the home pc user market also. What if all this diccontent with microshaft continues to grow, it seems like it will. Where will all these unhappy computer users do for there next OS. It seemed to me that they have little to choose from but Linux and Mac but mac machines seem overpriced and not very avalable. That leaves very little in the way of options except linux. I thought this over a little bit more, most of these people are not computer ginuses and know just enough to do basic stuff in windows, they are going to need something user friendly with a desktop similar to windows and they are going to need some good customer support to get started. It seems to me that Mandrake Linux fills these needs better than any other Linux distro. Is Mandrake destined for great success in the next couple of years, it seems to me like they should be. I looked at what Mandrake stock has done in the past year. It has really dropped, I have trouble understanding why. As best as I can tell from all this stock market gibberish mandrake seems VERY undervalued. It also seems to me that it has nowhere to go but up and maybe way way up. What do all you folks think? do all of us have a inside track on something that is destined to really go places? Maybe we all should be buying into Mandrake. I can not base any of this on stock market knowlage but just what seems like common sense to me. Sorry for something that is such a long post on something that is somewhat off topic. Marc Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 10:25, Franki wrote: another case in point... my girlfriend has used only windows at work... I gave her a windows PC at home for a present.. (the kind that keeps on giving, virus's defrag etc.. :-) two months ago, I told her I was going to swap her to linux.. she said can I still read email and browse web and write documents and make spreadsheets... I said yes.. she said OK... and hasn't had a problem. its not that hard anymore,, only the install and config are hard... In most cases, no harder than Windows (admittedly, I'm thinking Windows 9* here, since I haven't ried more recent versions). The one thing in Windows' favour from the install point of view is that if your hardware isn't supported on the installation CDs, it will almost certainly be on a CD that came with the device, or be easily downloadable, whereas this tends not to be the case with Linux. A few companies produce their own Linux drivers (NVIDIA, HP etc.) but for most of them, if the driver (or something vaguely compatible) isn't in your distro, you're pretty much screwed. I am not a fan of microshaft, but I have to admit that their config and add/remove stuff is still better then Mandrake's.. or any other *nix.. fortunatly thats the only area where they are ahead... Again, I'm comparing Mandrake 8.2 with Windows 98, which is unfair, but I find Mandrake somewhat easier to configure, and installing/uninstalling software in Windows now makes me extremely frustrated. Not only can you not do anything else while your software is being (un)installed, you frequently have to reboot. Reboot, for God's sake! Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thursday 30 May 2002 04:45 am, Robin did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: Again, I'm comparing Mandrake 8.2 with Windows 98, which is unfair, but it is unfair. from all reports i have heard (by reliable sources) XP is a pig that eats its own drivers for no good reason and demands you reinstall them. :) -- Spam not unto me! I shall decode thy email headers and trace thy routes, and smite them, and I shall pursue thy provider and thy provider's upstream link. Yea, unto the seventh generation shall I pursue thy links, and thou shalt spam no more. shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Wednesday 29 May 2002 09:44 pm, Damian G did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: this difference can and will be worked out in time. but for this to happen, a difference must exist between the linux user community and the linux developers bunch of anti-social, cofee-maniac, manual reading geeks ;oP and thanks for not bring your preconcieved notions to the list. ;) the problem with your statement, is the difference between user and developer is why windows is 90% useless fluff. that difference encourages creating dancing paper clips rather than functions that people want. yes, many members could be more understanding, but some users could realize that statements like why doesn't this just work? linux is crap cause i can't install this brand new alpha software that i was already warned doesn't work with my video card! will not get a lot of (positive) responce. ;) another part of the problem is that since the sooftware can be obtained free, the support by those who (usually) know it best is what should be charged for. yes, there is still great user support, but sometimes you need more. look at it as the evolution of free trade on the net. has anyone considered the possibility of a pressure element? kinda like some very dark forces secretly pushing within the software market in order to make it harder for them? more than you know -- Psychic Convention. If you belong there, you will KNOW when and where. shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thursday 30 May 2002 09:27 am, shane wrote: the problem with your statement, is the difference between user and developer is why windows is 90% useless fluff. that difference encourages creating dancing paper clips rather than functions that people want. yes, many members could be more understanding, but some users could realize that statements like why doesn't this just work? linux is crap cause i can't install this brand new alpha software that i was already warned doesn't work with my video card! will not get a lot of (positive) responce. ;) Harware is becoming more'n more a stumbling block to wean users off Windoze and to any other alernatives. Yes, a lot of the latest and greatest high end hardware has poor to no Linux support. M$ enforces this situation thru licensing agreements, and just plain illegal arm twisting and bullying of the vendors. OTOH, low end hardware is also becoming a much greater problem as more'n and more win-hardware is used in ready made (Dell, Gateway, Compact, etc) systems that all come with Winblows pre-installed. This junk also has poor to no Linux support also because it can't be supported, and most people buy these kinds of systems. For these hardware reasons alone, most existing Windoze users are fixin to stay put and pay any price M$ extorts from 'em. Still I think for financial reasons and security, there's some hope, and I still believe more, even a lot of M$ users will jump ship no matter how difficult M$ tries to make doin so feasible. I believe that's already begun, tho it's gonna take years. As it happens tho, M$ is gonna havt'a to use even greater extortions like it's current SA licenses to support their corporate bloat, and hopefully that'll eventually get the ball rollin faster as more M$'rs bail out. Then there's the younguns comin up. Mostly the current college crowd and a lot already use Linux, or at least are aware of it, or somethin other than Winblows. As M$'s existing user base dies off, there's gonna be a lower an lower percentage of new M$ users. This is also gonna cause M$ into more drastic, user alienating tactics. This'll provide the incentive for hardware vendors to worry less about M$ wrath, and more about supporting non-M$ users. Microsoft is a slowly sinkin ship (take a look at MSFT stock prices over the last coupl'a years), Linux stock will do better. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 30 May 2002 4:56 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: Harware is becoming more'n more a stumbling block to wean users off Windoze and to any other alernatives. Yes, a lot of the latest and greatest high end hardware has poor to no Linux support. M$ enforces this situation thru licensing agreements, and just plain illegal arm twisting and bullying of the vendors. OTOH, low end hardware is also becoming a much greater problem as more'n and more win-hardware is used in ready made (Dell, Gateway, Compact, etc) systems that all come with Winblows pre-installed. This junk also has poor to no Linux support also because it can't be supported, and most people buy these kinds of systems. An even bigger problem is Windows-only hardware that doesn't say it's Windows-only. My Lexmark printer is a case in point; from my reading of newsgroups and sites like linuxprinting.org it seems to be very hard to write drivers for it because Lexmark won't fully disclose what the printer does (there's a suspicion that some functionality, which would normally have been perfomed by the printer, has been hived off to Windows). Fortunately the Z42 drivers print out OK in black. Next time the ink cartridges run out (£36 for a pair) the printer is going in the bin and I'm buying an HP; it understands Open Source and even has a supported Sourceforge project for drivers. Quite often, that Linux works at all with J. Random Hardware is often a miracle ... Alastair - -- Alastair Scott (London, United Kingdom) http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE89mp3Cv59vFiSU4YRAn3pAJ4lOCGIUfpU7EQlieyDj5T2Nyaq4wCfRVXX nArlBDZ+Is8blZp61Llzgu4= =5DKx -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 23:22, shane wrote:
friendly flames? like friendly fire? :)
Hah!
in.
the very few groups i know that have made the change found it is more
difficult (by far) to teach a person from scratch than to teach them to use
a different OS. one person actually commented that his biggest problem was
teaching ppl to click once rather than double click to start things from
the desktop. if that is your biggest problem.
I've had the same problem. We have one Linux box in our office; the
rest are Windows. The biggest problem, apart from Where is Word?, is
people clicking on Netscape twice, opening two windows, then maybe
clicking a few more times when it's slow to load
/start{gripe} and boy is Netscape 6.2 slow - I know people say you
should get more RAM, but there's 64MB on that box, and 15 years ago I
wrote perfectly functional programs for a BBC Micro that fitted on a
floppy disk and used 32 KILObytes of RAM. As for Open Office ... Jeez,
just listen to your swap space going ungngngngung! /end{gripe}
also remember, with the new MS forced upgrade system, you buy everything,
every release, use it or not. the (very) long term cost of using windows
is a lack of innovative products and a monopoly that wants to bleed you
dry. i would rather retrain people, but like you said, just an opinion.
;)
And a good one too.
Just 2c's worth and I await friendly flames ;-)
Join the US army, or better still, any army allied to it.
Sir Robin
Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft?
Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
.iecai [I couldn't agree more]. Given a pre-installed system , I don't understand how any Windows user could find Mandrake/KDE more difficult than Windows. Sir Robin On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 05:30, Michael Viron wrote: Femme, As you said Linux has come a long way, but I do not think that it is that far away from being an option for the desktop. Keep in mind that Corel Linux OS (before Corel spun it off as Xandros (http://www.xandros.net/)), hid virtually all configuration behind the scenes (including partitioning) and featured a desktop that looked very close to MS. Mandrake also is very close. Just about everything you could possibly want to configure can be done via GUI programs. Want to install something? There is rpmdrake (specifically created by Mandrake), as well as Gnome and KDE equivalents. Want to browse the web? You can choose from Netscape, Mozilla, Konquerer, etc. Want to configure your system? You can do it via Mandrake Control Center, Linuxconf, or any one of a number of GUI based configuration tools. Want to read e-mail? Try K-Mail, Evolution, or any of the other GUI items out there. This is a far cry from Slackware 2.x and 3.x, which pretty much required you to hand-compile everything, and which had no way of knowing whether a dependency was installed or compiled without running a configure from the command line. Heck, the default kernel in Slackware 2.x and 3.x did not include networking by default, so if you even wanted to access the internet you had to recompile from scratch -- configuring it via a text based question / answer. In mandrake (as well as several other distros), the dependencies (for the most part) are take care of automatically. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But, believe me, things could be a lot more tech oriented then they are now. Michael -- Michael Viron Project Manager / Primary Developer, General Education Online Core System Administration Team, Simple End User Linux At 03:44 PM 5/29/2002 -0600, you wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: On Wednesday 29 May 2002 11:13 am, Dave Conroy wrote: It's only a matter of time before lot'sa people will need to unlearn Windows, and learn somethin else. Specially with M$'s new fangled SA programs (price gouging scams), and the horrific security holes that all M$ OS's and software feature. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas a) won't happen soon enough b) won't happen. Why? Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. -- Femme Good Decisions You boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
Hi Marc, Wednesday, May 29, 2002, 1:45:41 PM, you wrote: M It seemed to me that they have little to choose from but Linux and M Mac but mac machines seem overpriced and not very avalable. That M leaves very little in the way of options except linux. Consider how you're doing the analysis of value. Running a business, it's important to factor in not only the capital expenditure on the equipment itself but also the long term usage and short/mid term training factors relating to staff. I use Win2000 day to day, I have a Apple PowerBook G3 running pure OSX and play around with Mandrake. I have a slight emotional attachment to Mac's but I don't let that influence my maths. Mandrake may save me £500 short term, but the projected on going support and staff training costs would be too much for most small to mid sized enterprises. People don't know Linux. Windows is expensive up front, but has lowish support costs as most people are familiar with it (yes, there is a cost issue re. potential virus problems, etc). Mac's are easy to use, people like them and so use them more (in my experience of business buying anyway). They cost more, generally, than a equally/more powerful Win box. I'd love to recommend Macs but as a hard nosed business type I'd have to recommend Windows boxes for most people. Linux ... not even in the running for most people who have to worry about support and training. Just 2c's worth and I await friendly flames ;-) With best wishes, Dave -- David Conroy MSW Consultant, Trainer Management Coach International Coach Federation, ID 1006660 Voluntary sector support: http://www.coaching-lab.com Coaching via e-mail: http://www.e-coaching-only.com Coaching for women: http://www.womens-life-coach.com Web development/hosting: http://www.turnkey-coach.com ICQ 127865569 Phone/Fax +44 (0)1225 314694 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Wednesday 29 May 2002 11:13 am, Dave Conroy wrote: Mandrake may save me £500 short term, but the projected on going support and staff training costs would be too much for most small to mid sized enterprises. People don't know Linux. Windows is expensive up front, but has lowish support costs as most people are familiar with it (yes, there is a cost issue re. potential virus problems, etc). http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/02/05/28/1010235.shtml?tid=9 http://www.portlandtribune.com/archview.cgi?id=9726 http://www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html It's only a matter of time before lot'sa people will need to unlearn Windows, and learn somethin else. Specially with M$'s new fangled SA programs (price gouging scams), and the horrific security holes that all M$ OS's and software feature. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
friendly flames? like friendly fire? :) On Wednesday 29 May 2002 09:13 am, Dave Conroy opened a general hailing frequency and transmitted to all open stations: Mandrake may save me £500 short term, but the projected on going support and staff training costs would be too much for most small to mid sized enterprises. People don't know Linux. Windows is expensive up front, but has lowish support costs as most people are familiar with it (yes, there is a cost issue re. potential virus problems, etc). a few recent studies show that linux has a lower total cost of ownership than windows. i do _not_ recall if this was with virus factors figured in. the very few groups i know that have made the change found it is more difficult (by far) to teach a person from scratch than to teach them to use a different OS. one person actually commented that his biggest problem was teaching ppl to click once rather than double click to start things from the desktop. if that is your biggest problem. also remember, with the new MS forced upgrade system, you buy everything, every release, use it or not. the (very) long term cost of using windows is a lack of innovative products and a monopoly that wants to bleed you dry. i would rather retrain people, but like you said, just an opinion. ;) Just 2c's worth and I await friendly flames ;-) -- I knew I'd been living in Berkeley too long when I saw a sign that said free firewood and I said who is firewood and what did he do? shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Wednesday 29 May 2002 18:13, you wrote: Mandrake may save me £500 short term, but the projected on going support and staff training costs would be too much for most small to mid sized enterprises. People don't know Linux. Windows is expensive up front, but has lowish support costs as most people are familiar with it (yes, there is a cost issue re. potential virus problems, etc). Not realy surprising. My 10 year old daughter gets taught how to type MsWord docs at primary school. So the taxpayers (us!) are paying for the training. Count that in and your costs aren't that low anymore. Good Hunting, Harm. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
shane said onto me: -- snip |one person actually commented that his biggest problem was |teaching ppl to click once rather than double click to start things from |the desktop. if that is your biggest problem. snip -- tell me about it.. which, IIRC, under kde/konq can be set to either single or double click anyway -- °°° David L. Steiner Registered Linux User #262493 Mandrake 8.2 Enlightenment 0.16.5 Sylpheed 0.7.5claws Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: www.davidlsteiner.com °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
Tom Brinkman wrote: On Wednesday 29 May 2002 11:13 am, Dave Conroy wrote: It's only a matter of time before lot'sa people will need to unlearn Windows, and learn somethin else. Specially with M$'s new fangled SA programs (price gouging scams), and the horrific security holes that all M$ OS's and software feature. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas a) won't happen soon enough b) won't happen. Why? Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. -- Femme Good Decisions You boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
Femme, As you said Linux has come a long way, but I do not think that it is that far away from being an option for the desktop. Keep in mind that Corel Linux OS (before Corel spun it off as Xandros (http://www.xandros.net/)), hid virtually all configuration behind the scenes (including partitioning) and featured a desktop that looked very close to MS. Mandrake also is very close. Just about everything you could possibly want to configure can be done via GUI programs. Want to install something? There is rpmdrake (specifically created by Mandrake), as well as Gnome and KDE equivalents. Want to browse the web? You can choose from Netscape, Mozilla, Konquerer, etc. Want to configure your system? You can do it via Mandrake Control Center, Linuxconf, or any one of a number of GUI based configuration tools. Want to read e-mail? Try K-Mail, Evolution, or any of the other GUI items out there. This is a far cry from Slackware 2.x and 3.x, which pretty much required you to hand-compile everything, and which had no way of knowing whether a dependency was installed or compiled without running a configure from the command line. Heck, the default kernel in Slackware 2.x and 3.x did not include networking by default, so if you even wanted to access the internet you had to recompile from scratch -- configuring it via a text based question / answer. In mandrake (as well as several other distros), the dependencies (for the most part) are take care of automatically. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But, believe me, things could be a lot more tech oriented then they are now. Michael -- Michael Viron Project Manager / Primary Developer, General Education Online Core System Administration Team, Simple End User Linux At 03:44 PM 5/29/2002 -0600, you wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: On Wednesday 29 May 2002 11:13 am, Dave Conroy wrote: It's only a matter of time before lot'sa people will need to unlearn Windows, and learn somethin else. Specially with M$'s new fangled SA programs (price gouging scams), and the horrific security holes that all M$ OS's and software feature. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas a) won't happen soon enough b) won't happen. Why? Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. -- Femme Good Decisions You boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 07:44, FemmeFatale wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: On Wednesday 29 May 2002 11:13 am, Dave Conroy wrote: It's only a matter of time before lot'sa people will need to unlearn Windows, and learn somethin else. Specially with M$'s new fangled SA programs (price gouging scams), and the horrific security holes that all M$ OS's and software feature. -- Tom BrinkmanCorpus Christi, Texas a) won't happen soon enough b) won't happen. Why? Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. -- Femme I agree if you are talking DIY installs, but having just set up my 83 year old father-in-law on 8.2, I don't agree on the usability side. Anyone who doesn't know about computers either has a friend who installs it, or buys the machine with the OS (W$) preinstalled. Ask the average user to install W$ from scratch and the gotchas would come just as fast as they do with Mandrake. So this is the real difference from my viewpoint. The guy next door knows about W$, but not about linux. Given someone like me to set it up and provide an icon for each thing you want to do, Mandrake is not a problem for the novice. It's a telling point that having changed the 83 year old over to linux from W98, the number of support calls I have received is so far zero - used to average several per week. Brian Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Wednesday 29 May 2002 08:41 pm, Brian Parish did speak unto the huddled masses, saying: So this is the real difference from my viewpoint. The guy next door knows about W$, but not about linux. Given someone like me to set it up and provide an icon for each thing you want to do, Mandrake is not a problem for the novice. It's a telling point that having changed the 83 year old over to linux from W98, the number of support calls I have received is so far zero - used to average several per week. so long as you complete the install (you got flash on their right? :) i agree. and linux is harder for them to mess up if explain they should never run as root ...or don't tell them the root password. :P -- If someone tells you they possess the truth, listen carefully. If they tell you they possess the *only* truth, run for your life. shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
COUNTERPOINT! I wrote this almost two years ago as a rebuttal to a member of a certain help forum that continuously put down anyone that used Microsoft software but never offered a clear explanation or source for information about the alternative tools he evangelized. This is not directed specifically at any one person, but at the general mindset of some 'members' the GNU/Linux Community; and to almost all of those that want to complain about Windows, but don't want to invest any time and effort to learn something new. Thanks for the feedback; but I find that too often answers to questions about anything GNU/Linux are geared toward overly complex solutions relating to situations that don't obtain, or require some obscure knowledge that most people wouldn't have a clue how to utilize if they could find a source. The reason it has been stated by so many that there will never be a wide-spread GNU/Linux desktop usage is that, in my opinion; at heart, and stated simply, most of the Community doesn't seem to want it to happen. Mild xenophobia is a description that I find appropriate, with everyone seemingly intent on defending their own little fiefdom (distributions) with rabid ferocity, and be-damned to any Windows dweeb or other non-believer (non-technically oriented/educated/inclined person) that dares to set foot into the realm. Rather than your standard RTFM and STFW answer to everything; or the seemingly dogmatic belief that you seem to hold that Karl Marx was a misunderstood Saviour of humanity, have you ever considered that it would be more beneficial to the people that you are helping to occasionally provide a link or source for your many oh so 'fecund' pronouncements? Not everyone that uses a computer and the internet has an interest in Information Technology as a career; and not all of us are as stupid or illiterate as you seem to think. I'm learning this system in spite of people such as you. For my own reasons and in my own good time. I hope that others won't be frightened away from trying by being made to feel unwelcome through the belittling that is displayed with your every answer here. If nothing else teach us how to ask the right bloody questions! It went on for some boring length but the gist was that the GNU/Linux/Open Source Community is at times it's own worst enemy. Things have improved markedly, but there is still a vast journey ahead. It ain't about technology. It's about choices and methods. It should be about mutual respect as well. I'll still always be a newbie and proud of it. I define newbie in this context as a person that learns something every time they boot the OS and that takes immense pleasure in the learning. :-) Not because I have to; but because I made that choice. very inspiring and interesting. but, being the newbie list. i'm goint to make some newbie questions. what exactly is the community? is it developers? developers AND users? users? i could assume it's both, but as the Operating system becomes more popular, this distinction becomes more and more clear. i could guess several years ago, the linux community was actually a big group of groups, each focused on their computer projects, trying to make it big. and they did. Ah but then, there were users. at this moment, entering the community means becoming a a little too much involved in a great big world of learning/unlearning about the world of computers that may be not an interest for many people. i think the problem of the linux community not being very newb-friendly has a lot to do with this. the community was born as a project for an OS, and the problem showing up is developers/gurus/anti-social-nerds not being friendly to the user that simply wants to listen an audio CD and never opened the cover of his/her computer to check if they had that little cable... one fine example of this is the mplayer list. maintained by the developers. have you ever subscribed? you get at least 3 RTFM per post. ;oP ( note: as you may already know, Mplayer's FM is one big piece of.. stuff that a lot of people don't want to spend a whole day reading ) this difference can and will be worked out in time. but for this to happen, a difference must exist between the linux user community and the linux developers bunch of anti-social, cofee-maniac, manual reading geeks ;oP i'm not sure if this words mean exactly what i want to say... ... now, i've just looked at the subject. mandrake stock. yeah i remember the original post. has anyone considered the possibility of a pressure element? kinda like some very dark forces secretly pushing within the software market in order to make it harder for them? if linux were to became more popular... Winblows ( and all winblows-related software ) would have real competition! if linux were
Re: [newbie] Slightly OT Mandrake stock
On Wednesday 29 May 2002 18:20, you wrote: Well not wanting to beat my own drum but anyone who say's that Linux is not ready for the desktop needs to relook at it . Case in point my wife of 22 years now age 44 had 2 strokes that paralyzed her left side and hurt her mental capabilities as well . I have been gradually weaning her away from windows for about 6 months now and she has very little problems with Linux . Now considering that she has some short term memory loss and some long term memory loss I think that say's bundles for the ease of use of Mandrake. Balance that against that against the fact that she had used windows for about 6 years prior to this with numerous problems with it both pre stroke and post stroke (2 Strokes back to back in Dec of 1998 ) She love it and its ease of use. I on the otherhand am still learning everyday and get myself into more trouble than if I'd just stick with the basic Mandrake setup, Being a tinkerer of sorts I'm inclined to play to my deteriment on occassion and Thanks to the many willing and Knowledgeable Penguins out here in Newbie land ( Civilme, Sridhar, Tom, and yes even Femme, as well as many more of you ) I'm able to fix most of my Foulups and bloopers. By the way I'm also a lurker and 9 times out of 10 someone must be psychic as one of you usually address the problem with a solution before I get to ask for help. Try that with windows and see if you get the same results. On the unfortunate side there are still a few programs that we still have to depend on before I can be totally windows free ( please hurry Quicken, So Now Your Cooking, Family tree , and Vehicle Records Systems.) . With that said I agree with Miark as to the fact it is ready now .Now off my Stump and back into the quiet existence again I go. Hank Wangle SSGT Usmc(retired) Because linux will never be a desktop OS for the masses IMO. Requires too much tech knowledge and most just want their machine to work. Shrugs, My opinion. I know its come a long way but its still got a longer way to go yet. I couldn't disagree more. Gnome and KDE are every bit as powerful as Winsux (more, really), and just as easy (well, KDE, anyway). This was true of my own conversion (a computer-literate chap), and for my wife (a computer-illiterate lass). I'd say Linux is ready for the desktop right now! Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
