[NSP] Re: Concerts in France
The link via the Union Flag button doesn't work but the "translation" follows the French. It's hilarious! Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 29 May 2011 10:30 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Concerts in France I love the helpful way that this site has a union flag pointing to its English translation version. The descriptive text is still in French, as far as I can see, but helpful bits like "You are reading the website of..." and the name of the auction house are given in English. As are the links to stuff we wouldn't cope with in French unless we were very advanced, like "Top" (as in, of page.) Unless my computer has a translation-blocker, of course. Richard. > Incidentally, if anyone is short of a musette, three are being sold at a forthcoming auction in France. These are the real things; original 18C ivory items. You will need rather a lot of money!: > > http://vichy-encheres.com/2011/03/23/musette-de-cour/ > > Francis > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more. But I wasn't really talking about inconsistency or carelessness. Rather, I was thinking of the various prevailing standards such as "F" "F#" "a bit sharp of F", "G" and "us lot 'ere all tune to old Fred's chanter 'cos he's the one wot sounds the best". I would assume that the Reids worked to a chosen pitch standard in the same way as did Silbermann or - more relevant here - the Hotteterre gang. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 09 February 2011 10:31 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu group Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch On 9 Feb 2011, at 07:20, Paul Gretton wrote: > So in fact the variety of pitches for the NSP is extremely traditional! Two > hundred years ago it wouldn't have been thought in any way remarkable. Hello Paul and others, I must say, I disagree here. It's often forgotten that the the NSP of two hundred years ago - the conventional fully keyed form - was the product of a single workshop and was played in a relatively narrow geographical area. There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
In a large number of cities, the tuning standard was taken from the organ (specifically the flue pipes) in the church, the cathedral, or the local ruler's chapel. That pitch in turn tended to be determined by the particular organ-builder - say Silbermann - who "transported" his preferred pitch from one commission to another. Until well into the 19th century, there was an incredible mish-mash of different pitches from one town/city to the other. (And even within a particular city too - Bach complained of the varying pitches of the organs in Leipzig.) This was not a terrible problem for string players but it certainly was for wind players. Brass players, for example, had to travel equipped with a whole series of "bits" for fine tuning because until the 19th century brass instruments didn't have tuning slides. Flutes had to have "corps de rechange" - alternative middle sections of slightly differing lengths and hole placements for tuning to different pitch standards. So in fact the variety of pitches for the NSP is extremely traditional! Two hundred years ago it wouldn't have been thought in any way remarkable. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 09 February 2011 01:37 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Which were tuned with reference to.. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:27 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch > > Before the tuning fork was invented, there were pitch pipes. > > > > John > > > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
John Dally wrote: >>>This topic is always fun. Indeed it is! Forgive me if I have made these recommendations already in this forum (I can't remember) but if you are in any way interested in tuning you will love Ross W. Duffin: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony/dp/0393334201/ ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1297092983&sr=8-3) And if you are seriously interested in the history of pitch (as opposed to tuning), you need to get Bruce Haynes: A History of Performing Pitch: The Story of 'A' (http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Performing-Pitch-Story/dp/0810841851/ref=sr _1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297093102&sr=1-3) Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
>>>What I can never understand is WHY the pitch changes. Orchestral pitch has become higher because orchestras over the past couple of hundred years have tended towards increasing "brightness" or "brilliance" of sound. (Think Boston Symphony versus Chicago Symphony or French orchestras versus German orchestras.) There is a basic psychological tendency to associate brightness with higher pitch. Also, players intuitively feel that sharpness is more acceptable than flatness (which sounds "sourer" and "wronger") and tend to play "at the top of the note" to avoid the dreaded flatness. Higher pitched wind instruments are also more audible within the orchestral matrix. The same tendency applies to choirs, which generally tend to rise in pitch if not held back by the orchestra (and the conductor, of course). In a previous life, I performed on various renaissance wind instruments. The tendency of the wind ensemble was ALWAYS to go sharp, NEVER flat. As a cornetto player, I often ended up playing "on my teeth" (i.e. desperately forced to follow the rising pitch of my colleagues). The only solution -- as always -- was to force people to "listen to the f***in' bass line!" Since all the upper parts are essentially overtones of the bass, staying in tune with the bass is the only way to be in tune. It helps massively if there is a fixed-pitch keyboard instrument underlying the ensemble, preferably an organ. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 07 February 2011 14:03 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships It always fascinates me how the tuning of things changes (I have a concertina in "high pitch"). For those (like me) not well versed in the mechanics and theory of things, this makes good reading: http://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html (and also which locations not to attempt to play the pipes with the instruments noted). What I can never understand is WHY the pitch changes. Imagine if they did that with yards etc (change to metric notwithstanding) or liquid measure (I asked for a pint, what's this? - Oh the pint has been getting smaller over the years..). A standard should be just that - a standard. If it changes, it ain't standard! Good interesting thread though. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: To: ; Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships > > >>And I've been telling people it is because all notes have got >>gradually >>sharper over the last 150 years, and that the Reid 'ur-pipes' >>were made >>when G was somewhere between where F and G are now. Have I been wrong >>all this time? > > > This is probably an associated factor. My speculation about the 440 tuning > fork more concerned modern pipes (which are inevitably in the majority) > manufactured after the introduction of 440 as an international standard > (though many windplayers and hence orchestras incline to 442 (or even 443) > nowadays). > C > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[NSP] Re: Bewicks "German Spa"
Quite a bit of info at http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/GEO_GH.htm Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
I hope Francis won't mind if I add some food for thought by sending a slightly altered version of his message: >>>There are many things the harpsichord can't do. No dynamics. ... Limited >>>opportunities for the player to adjust intonation. So an expert >>>concentrates on what the harpsichord can do better than many other instruments; that >>>precise delivery of notes of a multitude of durations and silences >>>perfectly timed. >>>Theres a lot to be said for artificial limitations, and a lot of great >>>art has come about because of writers' and performers' observation of them. You might also substitute "organ" for "harpsichord" (although both instruments can change their registration, which in a sense is changing the dynamics, i.e. "terraced dynamics"). Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 20 December 2010 07:21 To: inky-adrian Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Doubleday On 6 Dec 2010, at 01:14, inky-adrian wrote: > Expression is emphasised in precision. Well, I think that says it perfectly, really. There are many things the pipes can't do. No dynamics. A relatively limited range. Limited opportunities for the player to adjust intonation. So an expert concentrates on what Northumbrian pipes can do better than any other; that precise delivery of detached notes with duration and silences perfectly timed. Theres a lot to be said for artificial limitations, and a lot of great art has come about because of writers' and performers' observation of them. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
I haven't really been following this discussion but perhaps it's worth pointing out that "parody" can have the formal musical sense of incorporating music from one genre into another, or basing a piece on another piece. Used in that way, it doesnt have to imply guying or spoofing the original. The clearest examples are the polyphonic parody masses of the Renaissance that are based on folk songs. The most popular tune was "L'homme armé", which generated literally dozens of glorious parody masses in the 15th and 16th centuries by major composers like Dufay, Ockeghem and Josquin. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 02 November 2010 10:58 To: Gibbons, John Cc: Richard York; NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting! I see why you prefer the 3-strain Reavely version as more consistent, but the Crawhall strain 4 is worth having - perhaps better if tweaked to fit the others from Reavely. I should have another look in that case, thanks. I have been thinking about this, and Lord Randal, since the discussion started. The tune is obviously a good fit to the metre, but if this is right, then the tune is to be played andante, not as a jig. Yes, I think that thee 6/8 variation sets (in Peacock et al) are not (dance) jigs, though often based on them - e.g. Felton Lonnen, which exists in both forms. The idea of Billy Boy as a parody of Lord Randal had never occurred to me, but the worried mum and the emphasis on the girlfriend's culinary abilities are common to both. I think it was Bronson's (Trad Tunes of the Child Ballads) book which alerted me to this. I had it on loan so I can't check it now, but IIRC he said that the two songs (or versions of them) were of comparable age, and I got more the feeling of 'counterpart' than 'parody' from what he was saying. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bag cloth
This might just explain why the Dutch for the "silly season" is ...errm... "cucumber time" (komkommertijd). ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 12 August 2010 18:42 To: Richard Shuttleworth Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Bag cloth On 12 Aug 2010, at 17:27, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: > Some of us have longer chanters. > (grin) Length isn't everything. It's what you . . . . Hell, you can tell it's August! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The Grand Chain
I can't give you an answer but this particular malapropism (specifically a "mondegreen") reminds me immediately of Carlos Sorin's heart-warming film "Bombón: El Perro", in which a misunderstanding of the words "Le Chien" plays a significant role in the plot. Anyone else seen it? It's the sort of film that will almost certainly have been on Channel 4. Lovely film! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombon_%28film%29 Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of cal...@aol.com Sent: donderdag 8 juli 2010 17:54 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] The Grand Chain I've just gotten my copy of the Northumbrian Pipers' Third Tune Book, 2nd edition. There's a tune whose title is given as "THE GRAND CHAIN (Le Grand Chien)." Now, since this is a second edition, I'm assuming that it wasn't just a typo, so I'm curious about this title. Was it just translated by somebody who was more interested in daydreaming about pipe tunes than paying attention during French class, or does the mistranslation actually have some interesting history behind it? I'm not meaning to be arch, but I do find this interesting. Alec MacLean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Benjamin Britten
http://www.brittenproject.org/works/BTC226/incipits http://www.brittenproject.org/works/BTC226 Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Marianne Hall Sent: 08 June 2010 17:13 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Benjamin Britten Saw a programme yesterday in which a piano duet was played. We were told it was written by Benjamin Britten when he was 10 years old. The tune, as we know it, was "The Keel Row." Does anyone know more about this? Marianne. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] pipe cases
BTW, anyone thinking of building their own (wooden) case might benefit from the following tip: Don't make the two parts separately - the case itself and the lid -- and then try to fit them together. What the factories do is build the case closed and then saw it open to create the two parts. This makes the woodwork much simpler and you get a more accurate joint. I was only alerted to this AFTER already building a couple of cases. D'oh... J Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: pipe cases
I do recall, on another piping list, someone mentioning using a length of (wide) plastic drainpipe with a strap riveted on for carrying purposes (the ends being made from drainpipe "end bits" they use to seal off a pipe - the unused end being stuck with the solvent.. Of course, quite waterproof but one would have to ensure the bellows fitted in as well.. Colin Hill. That recommendation came from me and referred to cases for GHB practice chanters. I have made numerous cases for wind instruments out of drainpipe and have always found them extremely strong and convenient, not to mention very cheap. (I've even made them for cornetti - you can bend the drainpipe with boiling water.) They also have the advantage of not advertising the fact that they contain a valuable nickable instrument. I don't know if you can easily find a size that would accommodate bellows. The trouble is that the bigger the diameter, the greater the length you have to buy. At that diameter, you might need to buy thirty feet! Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: pipe cases
>>>so any more info and ideas for suppliers of lightweight, weather-proof, >>>and preferably rigid cases of the right size and at the right price will >>>still be welcome. >>>Philip You might perhaps consider the rigid cases sold for transporting camera equipment. This kind of thing: http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/10409/show.html?cm_vc=PPZ1 These are pretty bomb-proof and come in all sorts of sizes. Some are sold completely full of blocks of foam (each about 2 inches). The idea is that you remove foam to create the shape of the cameras or lenses that you want to insert. For an instrument, you would probably want to cover the foam with plush or velvet. A number of the GHB players on the Dunsire group swear by cheap plastic tool-boxes from Wal-Mart and similar places. These also come in all kinds of sizes and are pretty strong. Padding can take the form of a couple of cheap cushions. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Musette drawings
Hi Bob, I can't tell you where you might find plans for a musette but I would expect one or more of the following people to be able to tell you whether any are in fact available: Paul Beekhuizen - leading maker (http://www.paulbeekhuizen.nl/) Jean-Christophe Maillard - THE player (http://www.conservatoire.mairie-toulouse.fr/equipes/equipePedagogique.htm#a nciennes) Jean-Pierre van Hees (http://www.flandersmusic.be/identity.php?ID=136557) Remy Dubois (http://users.compaqnet.be/loulou/facteur/facteurs1.htm) You probably already know this page: http://music.geocities.jp/muzettes/EngFile/index.html Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: kipper box
Not too sure about that. But the disaster with the thread of fate woven by the three Norns at the beginning of Götterdämmerung should be sufficient warning to anyone attempting to screw their strings up to higher than concert pitch! "Es riß! Es riß! Es riß!" Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John Sent: 09 February 2010 16:10 To: NSP group; 'Paul Gretton' Subject: [NSP] Re: kipper box Will Paul be able to inform us, (next June, if not before), of the tension in Brunnhilde's knicker elastic? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
>>>(Official Disclaimer: the terms, "Great mix" and "smashing" here >>>represent expressions of personally held opinions of musical taste, for >>>which I alone am responsible, and with which others may find they wish to >>>disagree. >>>This is their right, just as some people love Wagner's Operas and I >>don't, despite a classical musical education. >>>But I like this mix.) >>>:-) >>>Richard. Nice one, Richard. But did you know that a recent survey showed that 96.83% of people who say that they "don't like Wagner's operas" have never actually heard or attended one? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton (who just this morning booked his tickets for the Cologne Opera's "Ring" next June. Four trips of several hours driving in a single week to get there, but life-enhancing.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] musical taste
Topical today (well sort of): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcMA4Bz1SHI Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] test
test To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
I don't actually want to reply to this but I can hardly avoid doing so given what I'm accused of. This will be my final response. My short and spontaneous answer would be "Oh, for God's sake, Anthony, don't be so bloody WET!" I said that the performance needed one to have a barf bag handy. You referred to that remark as "gratuitous nastiness" and "cruelly revolting" (and now "insulting, dismissive and out of order"). That is a ridiculous overreaction on your part. Perhaps you are not familiar with the expression "get me a barf bag" (or the finger-in-throat gesture that often accompanies it). It is a common expression of dislike -- not revulsion or hatred -- by no means as savage as you make out. And I was attacking a performance, not Dru. >>>to my way of thinking. Exactly! >>>[we...] should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical >>>favourites. I believe that we should be able to express both positive AND negative views on this forum. We are not here to like or encourage EVERYTHING (even just pedagogically). Various bona fide "Famous Pipers" have made FAR more dismissive comments here about performances - particularly those of a certain lady - than my "barf bag" remark. >>I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and >>listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than >>Folk. I haven't the faintest idea what you mean here. I have no prejudice whatsoever against "trained singers" (including in the Irish repertoire) or the piece. My objection was to the particular performance referenced, which turns a great piece of sean nos into something cloying and mawkish, with a horrible plinky accompaniment -- "Arran-sweaters-by-the-fireside" easy listening. I - i.e. me, myself, personally -- find that it does violence to the essence of the music. NB: I was/am commenting on a paid professional performer, who places herself before the public for money, thus inviting comment. And although these are my personal opinions, I can assure you that a lot of lovers of Irish folk will share them. The repertoire that the song comes from has real GUTS. It's not meant to be simperingly sweet. Many of the great female sean nos singers sing with a similar "trained" voice production but without the mawkishness. This particular song is about loss and longing, both personal and (symbolically) national. You wouldn't sing the Marseillaise, for example, as a soppy lament! (OHMIGAWD!! Beam me up Scottie -- I've gone and expressed an OPINION again! You're allowed to disagree, Anthony - no problem -- but remember the hackneyed old Voltaire quote.) >>We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! You clearly don't, and I'm sure masses of forumees will instantly agree with you, as they slip another Maureen Hegarty CD into the player. But as Tim Berners-Lee was pointing out on the Beeb only this week, his brainchild has had the effect of opening up debate not just to like-minded groups and mutual admiration societies but also to objectionable rotters like me. Cheers, Sixtus Beckmesser (I have locked Paul Gretton in the cellar so he can't savage any more nice people) ___ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 February 2010 00:12 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation Find it revolting if you must - but we don't need to be informed of it! This is a a forum for that tiny minority of people who have found Northumbrian music and culture rewarding and uplifting. If you have to disagree with a posting please do it with some understanding and respect for the person expressing their thoughts. Your response was insulting, dismissive and out of order to my way of thinking. We are a tiny minority of Northumbrian pipes lovers and should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical favourites. I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than Folk. We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
___ From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] Sent: 06 February 2010 11:00 To: 'Anthony Robb' Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation I don't actually want to reply to this but I can hardly avoid doing so given what I'm accused of. This will be my final response. My short and spontaneous answer would be "Oh, for God's sake, Anthony, don't be so bloody WET!" I said that the performance needed one to have a barf bag handy. You referred to that remark as "gratuitous nastiness" and "cruelly revolting" (and now "insulting, dismissive and out of order"). That is a ridiculous overreaction on your part. Perhaps you are not familiar with the expression "get me a barf bag" (or the finger-in-throat gesture that often accompanies it). It is a common expression of dislike -- not revulsion or hatred -- by no means as savage as you make out. And I was attacking a performance, not Dru. >>>to my way of thinking. Exactly! >>>[we...] should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical >>>favourites. I believe that we should be able to express both positive AND negative views on this forum. We are not here to like or encourage EVERYTHING (even just pedagogically). Various bona fide "Famous Pipers" have made FAR more dismissive comments here about performances - particularly those of a certain lady - than my "barf bag" remark. >>I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and >>listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than >>Folk. I haven't the faintest idea what you mean here. I have no prejudice whatsoever against "trained singers" (including in the Irish repertoire) or the piece. My objection was to the particular performance referenced, which turns a great piece of sean nos into something cloying and mawkish, with a horrible plinky accompaniment -- "Arran-sweaters-by-the-fireside" easy listening. I - i.e. me, myself, personally -- find that it does violence to the essence of the music. NB: I was/am commenting on a paid professional performer, who places herself before the public for money, thus inviting comment. And although these are my personal opinions, I can assure you that a lot of lovers of Irish folk will share them. The repertoire that the song comes from has real GUTS. It's not meant to be simperingly sweet. Many of the great female sean nos singers sing with a similar "trained" voice production but without the mawkishness. This particular song is about loss and longing, both personal and (symbolically) national. You wouldn't sing the Marseillaise, for example, as a soppy lament! (OHMIGAWD!! Beam me up Scottie -- I've gone and expressed an OPINION again! You're allowed to disagree, Anthony - no problem -- but remember the hackneyed old Voltaire quote.) >>We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! You clearly don't, and I'm sure masses of forumees will instantly agree with you, as they slip another Maureen Hegarty CD into the player. But as Tim Berners-Lee was pointing out on the Beeb only this week, his brainchild has had the effect of opening up debate not just to like-minded groups and mutual admiration societies but also to objectionable rotters like me. Cheers, Sixtus Beckmesser (I have locked Paul Gretton in the cellar so he can't savage any more nice people) ___ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 February 2010 00:12 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation Find it revolting if you must - but we don't need to be informed of it! This is a a forum for that tiny minority of people who have found Northumbrian music and culture rewarding and uplifting. If you have to disagree with a posting please do it with some understanding and respect for the person expressing their thoughts. Your response was insulting, dismissive and out of order to my way of thinking. We are a tiny minority of Northumbrian pipes lovers and should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical favourites. I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than Folk. We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning
Brilliant! Cheers, Paul ___ From: Matt Seattle [mailto:theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 05 February 2010 19:29 To: Paul Gretton Cc: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning It's all beyond me, I don't know my Erse from my Alba On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Paul Gretton <[1]i...@gretton-willems.com> wrote: Good point! Similarly, we don't say "Deutsch" when we mean "German" or "Nederlands" when we mean "Dutch". In the same vein, it annoys me when various BBC pundits talk of the language of Iran as being "Farsi" as opposed to "Persian". (It seems btw that the Persian equivalent of the Academie Franc,aise would in any case prefer us to use "Persian".) -- References 1. mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
>>>Being cruelly revolting about a ***piece*** that truly speaks to someone else is childish. Just to clarify: the "piece" is glorious. It's the way the singer shafts it that I find truly revolting. Cheers, Paul -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 05 February 2010 17:20 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation Since when did gratuitous nastiness become discussion? There are polite/witty ways of giving an opinion. Being cruelly revolting about a piece that truly speaks to someone else is childish. Anthony --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton wrote: From: Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 11:20 Which I of course did -- pretty sharpish. But this is a forum for DISCUSSING things. A contributor expressed his opinion and I did the same. Don't let it bother you! ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 05 February 2010 11:04 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation OK so it doesn't butter your parsnip! Perhaps the easiest answer is to press the stop button instead of letting it bother you! Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton <[4]i...@gretton-willems.com> wrote: From: Paul Gretton <[5]i...@gretton-willems.com> Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation To: [6]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 9:25 >>>There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly attractive >>>version at [1][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a link to >>her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. "particularly attractive" ? LOL! How about "Make sure you have a barf bag handy before you listen! " But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht (pronounced "disgusting buses full of disputing nuns"). Mr Nasty To get on or off this list see list information at [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=i...@gretton-willems.com 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=i...@gretton-willems.com 6. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
Oh... do me a favour!!! "gratuitous nastiness...cruelly revolting"... purLEASE!!!. Go and play "Mr Nice Guy" somewhere else. (How about "North Northumberland" -- wherever that is.) Cheers, Mr Nasty -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 05 February 2010 17:20 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation Since when did gratuitous nastiness become discussion? There are polite/witty ways of giving an opinion. Being cruelly revolting about a piece that truly speaks to someone else is childish. Anthony --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton wrote: From: Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 11:20 Which I of course did -- pretty sharpish. But this is a forum for DISCUSSING things. A contributor expressed his opinion and I did the same. Don't let it bother you! ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 05 February 2010 11:04 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation OK so it doesn't butter your parsnip! Perhaps the easiest answer is to press the stop button instead of letting it bother you! Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton <[4]i...@gretton-willems.com> wrote: From: Paul Gretton <[5]i...@gretton-willems.com> Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation To: [6]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 9:25 >>>There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly attractive >>>version at [1][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a link to >>her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. "particularly attractive" ? LOL! How about "Make sure you have a barf bag handy before you listen! " But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht (pronounced "disgusting buses full of disputing nuns"). Mr Nasty To get on or off this list see list information at [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=i...@gretton-willems.com 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=i...@gretton-willems.com 6. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning
Good point! Similarly, we don't say "Deutsch" when we mean "German" or "Nederlands" when we mean "Dutch". In the same vein, it annoys me when various BBC pundits talk of the language of Iran as being "Farsi" as opposed to "Persian". (It seems btw that the Persian equivalent of the Academie Franc,aise would in any case prefer us to use "Persian".) Cheers, Nasty (and pedantic) Paul Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 05 February 2010 11:40 To: anth...@robbpipes.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning I have it on good authority from several Irish persons that the name of the Irish language in English is "Irish". In Irish it's "gaeilge". "Gaelic" is normally reserved for the language of Scotland "Gaeilge na hAlban" (or Gh`aidhlig in Scossgallic) Csirz >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:04 AM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton >Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation > > > OK so it doesn't butter your parsnip! > Perhaps the easiest answer is to press the stop button instead > of letting it bother you! > Cheers > Anthony > --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton wrote: > > From: Paul Gretton > Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation > To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 9:25 > > >>>There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly > attractive > >>>version at [1][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a > link to > >>her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. > "particularly attractive" ? LOL! How about "Make sure you >have a barf > bag > handy before you listen! " > But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht > (pronounced "disgusting buses full of disputing nuns"). > Mr Nasty > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > >References > > 1. [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 > 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
Which I of course did -- pretty sharpish. But this is a forum for DISCUSSING things. A contributor expressed his opinion and I did the same. Don't let it bother you! ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 05 February 2010 11:04 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation OK so it doesn't butter your parsnip! Perhaps the easiest answer is to press the stop button instead of letting it bother you! Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton wrote: From: Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 9:25 >>>There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly attractive >>>version at [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a link to >>her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. "particularly attractive" ? LOL! How about "Make sure you have a barf bag handy before you listen! " But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht (pronounced "disgusting buses full of disputing nuns"). Mr Nasty To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
>>>There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly attractive >>>version at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a link to >>her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. "particularly attractive" ? LOL! How about "Make sure you have a barf bag handy before you listen! " But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht (pronounced "disgusting buses full of disputing nuns"). Mr Nasty To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: musette
Actually, that's what I meant to link to! Here's the direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OVYA-DJ_og Cheeers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 05 December 2009 10:44 To: Paul Gretton Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: musette Yes, hugely interesting. Thanks Paul! Of greatest interest perhaps is the lecture-demonstration on this site by Jean Pierre van Hees, one of the best of the very few expert players. A fairly scary example of chanter dangling (ivory and silver items) and the waving around of that set of exposed bourdon double reeds made me fairly nervous. Among other items, he plays passages from Chédeville's adaptation for musette of Vivaldi's Four Seasons. A very good find. Francis On 5 Dec 2009, at 08:57, Paul Gretton wrote: > This should be of interest: > > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/pipensack#p/a/f/1/2OVYA-DJ_og > > > Cheers, > > > Paul Gretton > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/pipensack#p/a/f/1/2OVYA-DJ_og > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] musette
This should be of interest: [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/pipensack#p/a/f/1/2OVYA-DJ_og Cheers, Paul Gretton -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/pipensack#p/a/f/1/2OVYA-DJ_og To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
This is fascinating stuff. Thanks, Margaret. BTW, could the William Darling whom you mention possibly be Grace Darling's dad? The date you give could fit. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Margaret Watchorn Sent: 02 November 2009 17:02 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file I've found the recent comments about music in north Northumberland very interesting. I grew up among those who learned and played by ear (Joe Hutton, Will Atkinson, Jimmy Little, the Cheviot Ranters band in its various line-ups, and my dad, among many others) and owe them a great deal - including dozens of splendid tunes which still live in my head, if not on paper. When I was learning the pipes in 1974/75 with Joe at Alnwick Pipers Society, it was clear that he could also 'read the dots' when necessary. George Mitchell of the Cheviot Ranters was a very competent (and beautifully neat) amanuensis for other members of the band, and it's evident from some of the old sheets of manuscript I have that Willy Miller (fiddle player) could also jot down a tune when necessary. There are a few wonderful hand-written manuscripts from north Northumberland from the early and mid nineteenth century which indicate that some ordinary folk were competent music readers and writers. William Dobson of West Thirston (a joiner and fishing rod maker) filled his manuscript book with favourite tunes for the fiddle, including second parts for some melodies, beautifully written over a period of at least thirty years. The inclusion of about 20 hymn and metrical psalm tunes notated in up to four parts in a West Gallery style (tune often in the tenor line) indicates that he had some connection with a non-conformist chapel. William Darling of Bamburgh (c. 1810) also kept a manuscript book. His own attempts at composition are sometimes rudimentary - bar lines in the wrong place, note lengths not always accurate etc - but he clearly understood the basic principles of notation, as did John Readshaw and George Wallace, just over the border into Cumbria. So there's definitely evidence of people being able to read/notate music in north Northumberland, as well as plenty of examples of those who play (or played) by ear. Best wishes Margaret To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Dear Anthony, Thank you for making that clear. BTW, I would be very interested to hear more about life up country among the hill tribes. I hope they treated you with appropriate respect - perhaps as the people of Vanuatu do with Prince Philip? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement). Of course Philip did descend from the heavens in a helicopter, and I see you more as a 2CV kind of chap. (I suppose I'd better put in a smiley here.) :-) Cheers, Paul Gretton From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 02 November 2009 09:32 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Dear Paul As Philip G. points out, some good points but hardly germane. I think I made it clear that I was speaking very particularly, in fact here is the quote from my original email refering to the region I was focussing on, "the outlying districts of north Northumberland". I was talking about the people I lived amongst and were the traditional players of north Northumberland, i.e. the people at the heart of the discussion. None of the 20th century "musical heavyweights" from that region were dots readers and had all learnt by ear as had their predecessors. It was not a general statement; it was a particular one of importance to those discussing the music of Northumberland in terms of notated music and drawing conclusions from it. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Paul Gretton wrote: From: Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 6:20 PM Anthony Robb wrote: >>>dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called "better" working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of "ordinary" people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
It just occurred to me that I ought to have added: To get an idea of the culture that fostered musical literacy even among very "ordinary" people, just read D.H. Lawrence, specifically Sons and Lovers. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gretton Sent: 01 November 2009 19:20 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Anthony Robb wrote: >>>dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called "better" working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of "ordinary" people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Anthony Robb wrote: >>>dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called "better" working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of "ordinary" people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The Power of Positive Thinking
Surprisingly, even after 30 years of living in Holland and mentioning that I'm a piper, I've only ever once had anybody produce the relevant pun! Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 20 October 2009 12:38 To: i...@ihug.co.nz; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: The Power of Positive Thinking Anyone know what pijpen means in Dutch? (I do). c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The Power of Positive Thinking
Francis wrote: >>P. S. Are there dates for this course? I think the idea is probably that you bring your own date. But I'm sure an ad hoc committee can make appropriate arrangements for you. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS competition results
For God's sake Colin! Malcolm's message came in on the Dartmouth list (as did Julia's message that it adds to). So any publications by the Society are irrelevant - not all of the list members get them or read them. Moreover, the kind of bureaucratic procedure that you advocate is just the sort of thing that puts people off the Society. It's OK to be a curmudgeon, but you are starting to sound rather sad. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of rosspi...@aol.com Sent: 19 October 2009 13:55 To: malc...@northumbriansandpipers.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: NPS competition results I see that you are already taking over the role of Chairman in pre-empting the Secretary's report on the Competitions. You should have checked this with the Secretary before making a report which could have been left to be included in the Newsletter along with other views on the Comps that other members may wish to write. Colin R -Original Message- From: Malcolm Craven To: julia@nspipes.co.uk; 'nsp' Sent: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:05 Subject: [NSP] Re: NPS competition results Hi, Just to add to Julia's bald facts. We played tracks by the winning overseas competitors, which were very warmly recieved by the audiance. Well done to all of the overseas entrants ( several of whom were with us last year and are fondly remembered) We had several visitors during the course of the day; and had pipers from Germany, France, Canada, and the USA at the event. All the comments I received were very positive. The whole day was very pleasant, with much support for the competitors. I hope that this very positive atmosphere will continue to next year's comps. I'd like to thank all those who organised the day, the venue, the judges, the competitors themselves and the many pipers who attended the day. A very pleasant day which concluded with a play around both at the Chantry and later at Newbiggin. Malcolm Craven To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic keypads
Very interesting stuff! You'd be locked up for giving that kind of lesson nowadays. (Fifty years ago, I had a chemistry teacher who actually showed us how to make various explosives. I think his attitude was that it was better for us to do so under his supervision than experiment on our own.) One point arising from what you wrote: When we oil the bore of NSP, are we actually attempting to get the oil - of whatever type - to penetrate the wood? Aren't we rather attempting to create a very smooth surface layer (for tonal reasons)? With blackwood or lignum vitae, the oil doesn't really penetrate anyway (for one thing, the woods are naturally "oily"). This is different, I think, to the use of various organic oils on freshly machined fruitwoods or maple, for example in mouth-blown renaissance or baroque instruments. With those instruments, the idea of oiling is also (primarily?) to prevent the wood rotting because of the constant moisture from the player's breath. Unlike the woods used in NSP, fruitwoods and maple do in fact absorb a significant amount of oil. In fact, it's astonishing how much linseed oil is absorbed by something like, say, a shawm or a bass recorder. YM2C. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 19 October 2009 12:33 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Synthetic keypads Quick chemistry lesson. The acidic "essence" of acids (hydoxonium ions) are very poor attackers of natural materials. I used to demonstrate this by pouring concentrated hydrochloric acid, fuming and pungent straight from the bottle into my cupped hand and I'd leave it there for 30 seconds or so (till the fumes got too much to bear) before tipping it into my coffee mug diluting it with water and passing it around the class to taste (those were the days!!) Nasty acids were 1) strong oxidisers e.g. nitric acid 2) dehydrating agents e.g. phosphoric acid or 3) both e.g. sulphuric acid. It is unlikely that it is "acidic" attack which causes problems with neoprene (a polymer which has been used for over 50 years - the chlorine atoms in its structure make it more chemically resistant to chemical attack) The drawback with neoprene is that it is mechanically weak and needs vulcanising and/or additives to make it useful. I wonder just what is going on here? Has anyone performed any controlled studies or even simply recorded casual observations a with respect to the shelf-life of various samples with a) mineral oil or b) olive oil? While we're on the subject I'm still not convinced that mineral oil (being hydrophobic) can penetrate wood as effectively as, say, olive oil which has a hydrophilic end on its hydrophobic tail. I'm too long away from the chemistry bench to know the latest thinking on these things a is there more information out there waiting to be shared? As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Respringing a key
Ian, If you don't want to send the key back to the maker, I suggest that you look for a local maker/repairer of baroque woodwinds - specifically baroque. Various baroque winds use the same kind of keys as the NSP and someone who works with them may well have experience of fixing exactly this problem. One place to start might be the Seattle Baroque Orchestra, which would be able to put you in touch with a player of the relevant instrument who would know of a good repairer. http://www.seattlebaroque.org/about-us.htm BTW, some (mainstream) woodwind repairers can fix keys by means of microwelding. That might also be a possibility. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ian Lawther Sent: 19 October 2009 03:52 To: nsp Subject: [NSP] Respringing a key One of the springs on my chanter has become very weak and is, I fear, about to break. I have the choice of returning it to the maker for respringing (a trans Atlantic posting job), getting a maker here in the US to do it (a couple of options - more if I consider other local folk woodwind makers) or trying to do it myself. In considering doing it myself I have "Cocks and Bryan" and Mike Nelson's website as guides but both are aimed at making keys not refitting them. Mine is chrome plated and I don't particularly want to drill through to put a new rivet in. How do people usually do itis it feasible to use the stub of the original rivet to mount the spring? Any thoughts and advice welcome Ian www.bagpipediscs.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Way off topic appeal to Guardian readers
Richard, Thank you for confirming that I am not the only one whose perception of NSP players is of a bunch of Guardian readers. ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton (NRC-Handelsblad/Volkskrant/NYT reader) -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 13 October 2009 00:27 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Way off topic appeal to Guardian readers With my apologies for seriously abusing the proper subject of this list... Please do any Guardian readers among you in the UK have a copy of today's (Monday's) section of "Great Fairy Tales" unwanted? I'll happily refund the cost of the paper plus P&P to get one. Please reply off list; and again I apologise for hijacking it thus. Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shaw G-set Scam
My God woman! Be more careful -- Northumbria Police will be at your door in a few minutes to arrest you under the provisions of the Data Protection Act. You will probably be tasered -- maybe even kettled -- into the bargain. Do you never read the Neasden Police Log (in Private Eye)? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 27 August 2009 14:58 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alec Subject: [NSP] Re: Shaw G-set Scam On 27 Aug 2009, Alec wrote: > any interaction you have had with David Quintin >Simpson then please do let me know. This guy was an NPS member around 2002, and I have given Alec all the info I could find in the society records. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re transposition
>>I've always got the impression that all this Midi, Abc, Sibelius stuff is >>probably more laborious than long hand. With all these programs, the laboriousness depends entirely on how practised you are. I know from experience that ABC allows you to enter stuff at great speed and the printed result is of course much nicer than 99.999% of people's handwriting. >>What was good enough for Beethoven and Tom Clough is good enough for me. Errr.sorry, could you speak up a bit? Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: this list is safer now
-Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Di Jevons >>I do think however there is a danger that 'life and bounce' can be >>mistaken >>for 'breakneck speed' and whilst I am firmly of the opinion that one does >>not progress if one does not leave one's 'comfort zone' from time to time, >>I >>do not see that there is a lot to be gained by playing lots of tunes in >>succession at a speed at which no-one in the room (or very few) can >>actually >>manage. From a listening point of view, I would rather hear a tune played >>at >>a slightly slower pace and with more style and feeling, rather than >>sounding >>'out of control'. Oh dear! I think you are showing a total failure to appreciate 95% of all piping recordings, the purpose of which is to bash the listener into submission, with the expressed emotion being "I'll bet YOU can't play this fast, you wimp!!!" Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: What oil to use?
Confucius, he say: "Flee argument; seek peace, quiet, harmony." Rodney King, he say: "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?" NSP Committee, they say: "Come all without, come all within, You'll not see nothing like the mighty Quin." Francis Wood, he say: "I'd like to teach the world to sing, In perfect harmony. I'd like to hold it in my arms and keep it company. I'd like to see the world for once All standing hand in hand And hear them echo through the hills 'Ah, peace throughout the land.'" And then comes that bugger Hegel and says: "FIRST the dialectic, folks, and ONLY THEN the synthesis! (baby)" Cheers, Paul "Mr Nasty" Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 26 May 2009 07:50 To: pipers list Subject: [NSP] What oil to use? Can anybody suggest a suitable oil to pour on these troubled waters? Ideally, it should be capable of spreading evenly and fairly as well as making the tone of everything seem much brighter. Should lubricate roughened areas. Capable of curing squeaks as well as growls, howls and other distressing noises. Must be totally non-imflammable. Non-oxidising would be nice too. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
Thank you for the explanation. I think that those of us who want to see Colin as President are assuming (a) that he would be prepared to accept the post, (b) that his health would allow it, and (c) that the duties of Chairman and President are sufficiently different that he would feel healthy enough to take up the latter post even though he has resigned the former. I would hope that the committee would be able to find some solution -- within the rules -- that would allow Colin to become President if (a), (b), and (c) apply. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of suzefis...@aol.com Sent: 21 May 2009 12:27 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Colin Ross Dear all I'd like to respond to the first part of Pauls e mail. No one is doubting the huge contribution Colin has made to the NPS and piping in general. However as a Society with written rules the committee is obliged to abide by them. At the time of Jim's death Colin was Chairman, the rules clearly stat that a new President should be appointed within 6 months of the position being vacant. Members must be given notice of the EGM required to ratify the committee's recommendation, therefore a new President was needed by mid June so a notice can go out in the July newsletter. As Colin was Chairman it was not appropriate for him to be considered as President. At the committee meeting on 21st March Colin removed himself from the list of potential candidates. A short list was drawn up and Julia tasked to contact the favoured candidate. This she has done and Joyce Quinn has accepted. I would have thought that the fact that Colin has resigned at the recommendation of his doctor, would indicate that he needs to take some time out from all things, to allow himself to recover his health. Susan Craven To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
If Colin is available, then it would seem bizarre -- and a gratuitous insult -- to appoint anyone else, certainly some politician whom none of us have ever heard of in a piping context and who isn't even a member of the society. Other similar organisations normally have a president who is eminent as a maker, player, scholar etc. of the instrument concerned. Examples include the LBPS and even the Piobaireachd Society (nowadays). BTW, I'm intrigued by your remark "...the committee, not all of whom read this list." All but one of the committee would appear to have a computer. I wonder why they would not want to keep track of this list? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 21 May 2009 11:17 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Colin Ross On 21 May 2009, Richard Evans wrote: > Colin's huge contribution over a lifetime needs to be > recognised and this would be one way to do it. All these responses are being noted, both those on this list, and ones I have received offlist. To date, the suggestions have been unanimous - no other person has been mentioned. I will report this to the committee, not all of whom read this list. Julia Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
>> Very interesting. It would seem that some authorities are more >> authoritative than others. >> Oink, oink. >> Chirs -- >>>Oink, oink So you're aligning yourself with those that are MORE authoritative, then? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: silly propoal? You tell me.
Matthieu wrote: >>As said in another post, when you listen to an instrument for the first >>time, you think this is the way it is usually played A very important point, I think. Consider in this context how for most people the GHB means nothing but pipe bands. Similarly, UP are generally seen nowadays as a kind of New Age instrument to be played with lots of swirly reverb. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: I must be daft
Don't you in fact mean 'ere, 'ere ? As in 'ere, 'ere! You lads stop messing around or I've give you a clip round the ear! (says Dixon of Dock Green). Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Anita Evans [mailto:an...@evansweb.co.uk] Sent: 15 April 2009 09:57 To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: I must be daft Anita Evans wrote: > Here here! or even, Hear Hear! ; -- Anita Evans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Billy Pigg
>>I thought I made it clear I was speaking from my position as a piper. My other qualifications are totally irrelevant in this context! No, they certainly aren't when you disingenuously presenting yourself as lacking the sophistication that you obviously have. >>May I ask about your musical background?? No, in this context you may NOT. Because that kind of putdown - which basically amounts to "I am a much better piper than you are", which I will of course admit instantly -- is a kind of "get out of gaol free" card that enables you to avoid any kind of disputing of your arguments. It is far too reminiscent of the standard GHB reply "So how fast is your crunluath then?" or "How many gold medals have YOU won?" Cheers, Paul Gretton ___ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 14 April 2009 23:13 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Billy Pigg Hello Paul Thank you for that considered contribution. I thought I made it clear I was speaking from my position as a piper. My other qualifications are totally irrelevant in this context! May I ask about your musical background?? Anthony --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Paul Gretton wrote: From: Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Billy Pigg To: "'Anthony Robb'" Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 9:58 PM >>>The important thing to bear in mind is that ordinary folk like me just >>>know what we like. GROAN!! This "I'm just an ordinary bloke, a man of the people with simple tastes" stuff is so unutterably tedious I thought you were a school headmaster with a degree in a hard science? Or would you prefer us to believe that you are an illiterate sheep-xxx from up a hillside somewhere north of Wooler?? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 14 April 2009 21:44 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; what.me Subject: [NSP] Re: Billy Pigg Hello Adrian Thanks for that. I'm new to this debate and find it all fascinating. I'm obviously one of the damned because I find choyting expressive and beautiful in the right place. The thought of "moving on" from Billy Pigg to Tom Clough is as strange to me as "moving on" from York to Durham. They are both wonderful beautiful places and neither can really claim superiority. I can understand moving from one to the other but not "moving on" from one to the other. The important thing to bear in mind is that ordinary folk like me just know what we like. That can be nice bouncy dance tunes tunes played "out of context??!!" for sheer enjoyment in each other's homes or other ways of getting some some personal expression that goes beyond the rules laid down by one of the most unique and talented dynasties to stand outside the everyday tradition of this music. I feel priveleged to have had the music experiences I've had. I was taught by ear by someone who thought Tom Clough was king and who was himself taught by ear by someone who was taught by Tom Clough. The interesting thing is, they both had an openess of mind that allowed for deviation from the received teaching. The question is, do we move on from here or go back to a strict obeyance of rules that only the extremely gifted can live by? As aye Anthony --- On Tue, 14/4/09, what.me wrote: From: what.me Subject: [NSP] Billy Pigg To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 7:03 PM Hello all, Billy Pigg did choyt. When I was learning the nsp is the late 1970's / early1980's there were not too many players which I liked the playing of. I plumped for Billy Pigg because he was marketed as being a legend; although Tom Clough was The Prince of Pipers, there was not enough of him to listen to. The other players seemed to have no gusto in their playing. My method of playing has changed. I use to choyte, grace a lot and use vibrato. The first has vanished altogether, I use gracing sparingly as with vibrato. Although Billy was my mainstay to piping, I've moved on to Clough, although his timing was not that accurate, his detatched fingering was the tightest I'd heard early in the beginning. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Billy Pigg
>>>The important thing to bear in mind is that ordinary folk like me just >>>know what we like. GROAN!! This "I'm just an ordinary bloke, a man of the people with simple tastes" stuff is so unutterably tedious I thought you were a school headmaster with a degree in a hard science? Or would you prefer us to believe that you are an illiterate sheep-xxx from up a hillside somewhere north of Wooler?? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 14 April 2009 21:44 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; what.me Subject: [NSP] Re: Billy Pigg Hello Adrian Thanks for that. I'm new to this debate and find it all fascinating. I'm obviously one of the damned because I find choyting expressive and beautiful in the right place. The thought of "moving on" from Billy Pigg to Tom Clough is as strange to me as "moving on" from York to Durham. They are both wonderful beautiful places and neither can really claim superiority. I can understand moving from one to the other but not "moving on" from one to the other. The important thing to bear in mind is that ordinary folk like me just know what we like. That can be nice bouncy dance tunes tunes played "out of context??!!" for sheer enjoyment in each other's homes or other ways of getting some some personal expression that goes beyond the rules laid down by one of the most unique and talented dynasties to stand outside the everyday tradition of this music. I feel priveleged to have had the music experiences I've had. I was taught by ear by someone who thought Tom Clough was king and who was himself taught by ear by someone who was taught by Tom Clough. The interesting thing is, they both had an openess of mind that allowed for deviation from the received teaching. The question is, do we move on from here or go back to a strict obeyance of rules that only the extremely gifted can live by? As aye Anthony --- On Tue, 14/4/09, what.me wrote: From: what.me Subject: [NSP] Billy Pigg To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 7:03 PM Hello all, Billy Pigg did choyt. When I was learning the nsp is the late 1970's / early1980's there were not too many players which I liked the playing of. I plumped for Billy Pigg because he was marketed as being a legend; although Tom Clough was The Prince of Pipers, there was not enough of him to listen to. The other players seemed to have no gusto in their playing. My method of playing has changed. I use to choyte, grace a lot and use vibrato. The first has vanished altogether, I use gracing sparingly as with vibrato. Although Billy was my mainstay to piping, I've moved on to Clough, although his timing was not that accurate, his detatched fingering was the tightest I'd heard early in the beginning. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re:
Chirs wrote: >>Why should NSP be the only instrument restricted to a single style? The "should" is not a matter of authoritarian compulsion or hidebound conservatism but of appropriateness. Unlike the violin, the NSP has until very recently been associated with a very specific repertoire, the core of which is bound up with the structure of the instrument -- a sort of chicken/egg situation. As I said in reply to David, the problem with wild do-your-own-thing innovation is that the innovative style takes over and the traditional style is then lost. >>Kreisler any one? >>Or Stuff Smith? >>Or Andrew Manze? >>Didier Lockwood? >>Gatemouth? >>Grappelly? >>Itzhak Perlman? >>Willie Taylor? >>I wish I knew who was playing properly... It's confusing to speak of "style" here. All those people play the violin but they play different ***repertoires*** without overlap between them (with a couple of exceptions). Those repertoires require a certain "style bandwidth" if they are to be true to the nature of the music. I doubt if Manze would tackle the Tchaikovsky concerto on his baroque violin and in baroque style. Perlman, however, would probalby tackle a Handel or Corelli sonata, with IMHO dire results that distort the nature of the music. Or -- since you're about to become an opera buff :-) -- I would prefer to hear Isolde sung by Flagstad or Nilsson rather than by Emma Kirkby! (and vice versa for Rameau or Lully) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 14 April 2009 10:51 To: davidthba...@googlemail.com; ch...@chrisormston.com Cc: rosspi...@aol.com; lisaridley6...@hotmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Re: < I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any > instrument 'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere rigidly to > tradition. Here we go again! FWIW: I a) value the tradition (and the baroque) and b) agree wholeheartedly with the above statement. I play various instruments in various styles. Why should NSP be the only instrument restricted to a single style? Kreisler any one? Or Stuff Smith? Or Andrew Manze? Didier Lockwood? Gatemouth? Grappelly? Itzhak Perlman? Willie Taylor? I wish I knew who was playing properly... chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Style
Well the first name that springs to mind is the wonderful Natalie Dessay -swoon! drool! -- or a few octaves lower Gottlob Frick. And Lauri-Volpi in the middle. But closer to where you are, and thinking about power (actually projection) and vibrato (actually lack of it) how about a trip to Cologne for their current production of Tristan und Isolde? Richard Decker and Annalena Persson sing wonderfully and they look marvellous too. A terrific production. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 14 April 2009 13:06 To: i...@gretton-willems.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Style >I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate! Maybe. Who would you suggest? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Style
Chris wrote: >>like opera singers their brute power and vibrato I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate! Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Style
EXACTLY!!! Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 14 April 2009 12:01 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Style >Something may be "wrong" when playing a given style music (like playing jazz as if it >was classical and vice versa) but describing a style as "wrong in itself" can only be >regarded as narrow-mindedness - can't it? c I'm not sure it's as simple as this Chris. In order to develop any music genre and move it intelligently and logically on from where it is surely requires knowledge and expertise in that genre. The pipes were designed to provide a staccato (or at least a separated note) foundation to the music. If a person ignores this completely from the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they wish but to have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must spend time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting off on their journey. If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the first place. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re:
David Baker wrote: >>Had it not been for certain groups of musicians breaking the rules >>because what resulted sounded good to them, the only style of trumpet >>playing would be baroque, and jazz would not exist (to give but one >>example). Hmmm...that is a very interesting take on the history of music, ignoring entirely the invention of valves (which allowed the trumpet to play in any key and to play diatonically and chromatically in the low and middle registers for the first time); the end of the trumpet guild system; the development of the brass band; the rise of mass production through industrialisation (which made instruments much cheaper); the influence of African music in New Orleans; and the overall gigantic changes that took place in Western music between the baroque period and the rise of jazz. Oh yes, and also the fact that jazz existed long before jazzers started to use the trumpet (Armstrong started on the cornet, for example). I'm afraid it wasn't all just a matter of some cool dudes audaciously deciding to "break the rules". But don't let me rigidly cramp your musicological style! >>I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any instrument >>'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere rigidly to tradition ... >>I would hope the NSP community was receptive to the efforts of young >>players (I hope at 22 I can still call myself one) expressing themselves >>through their chosen instrument and working hard in order to do so. If >>not, this 'tradition' is indeed in real danger of dying out. The trouble, though, is that traditions can get hijacked in a way that takes them far away from the essential nature of the music, so that someone's let-it-all-hang-out-baby self-expression comes to dominate. And with modern media, public funding, and publicity, the new style then takes over and the traditional one is forgotten. Cheers, Mister Nasty (using Paul Gretton's computer) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
For those of us who live far from Northumberland and who don't know the personalities involved, all this stuff is extremely cryptic (although still fascinating). All we can do is draw conclusions on the basis of the messages as we read them, conclusions that may or may not be correct. I take your message to mean that "Lisa Ridley" posted her comments from your computer. Surely I'm wrong? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Chris Ormston [mailto:ch...@chrisormston.com] Sent: 14 April 2009 01:18 To: 'Anthony Robb'; 'Rick Damon'; 'Dartmouth NPS' Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley "Yes, the clip sounded poor and yes, the article itself was unfortunate but Jessica isn't responsible." Then who is responsible? And why doesn't the Sage promote proper piping? I was asked to provide some piping tuition for a 4th year piping student who didn't know where the beat should sit in a jig. Unacceptable for a degree course. The Sage is about "Jobs for the Boys" and it stinks! They pretend to be about participation, but ultimately it's all about producing middle-brow pap for the coach party market to promote the incumbents of senior positions there! I've already had a yellow card tonight from Wayne, for something posted from another with the same IP address. I'll go before the red card is brandished. Enjoy mediocrity! Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re:
Just a tiny question, Lisa. You don't happen to have a child of your own who enters NSP competitions, do you? Just curious. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lisa ridley [mailto:lisaridley6...@hotmail.com] Sent: 13 April 2009 11:45 To: helen.ca...@paradise.net.nz; pipers list Subject: [NSP] Re: Re: Apologies, I was under the impression that the pipers list was a forum for self expression and discussion. I was not aware there was a required censorship in case "the truth" about these pretenders reaches the "public" domain. The Newcastle Journal is a publication with a weekly circulation of 289 000, and hence a VERY public forum, and I doubt this reporter stumbled upon this story herself but rather that it was fed to her. The Bellingham show is also a public event and I have witnessed first hand the attempts by the child's family to compromise the integrity of the competition by niggling at the judges and making loud stage whispers from the audience "you were the best - you would have won if it he (Chris Ormston) hadn't been judging". I'm told that Adrian Schofield was given an even more torrid time the previous year. Such behaviour is not worthy of our support. LR > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:48:33 +1200 > To: lisaridley6...@hotmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: helen.ca...@paradise.net.nz > Subject: [NSP] Re: > > I have often been misquoted in the press, to my embarrassment. I think we > need to be very careful not to be seen to be unsupportive in the public eye, > and this is after all a relatively public list. > Helen > > - Original Message - > From: "lisa ridley" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 6:59 AM > > > > > > I'd like to share with you all some quotes from an article in the > > Newcastle Journal newspaper about Jessica Lamb. The paper has an > > article entitled "school girl piper Jessica a star in the making" > > > > I picked them up and within no time at all I was playing a tune." > > I could play by ear and I just took to them straight away. From there I > > got better and better and now Im so proud of myself. Im brilliant and > > Kathryn Tickell has high hopes for me." > > > > Some of you may be aware of this 14 year old precocious nay > > dillousional child. This is the child who has been repeatedly given > > feedback by pipers who ARE brilliant and has ignored it; year on year > > she has had the same feedback yet listening to the video attached to > > the article is still ignoring it. Chris Ormston & Adrian Schofield have > > both given this girl advice but clearly she feels she knows better than > > those who are recognised by us all as true masters of the pipes. This > > girl has a long,long way to go before she can claim to be "brilliant". > > > > > > The comments of her mother (the typical pushy mother) show where the > > girl gets it from - "Jessicas mum Catherine Lamb, 42, a nursery nurse, > > said: As soon as Jessica picked up the Northumbrian pipes she was a > > little genius. She could play a tune straight away. We just knew she > > was going to be fantastic at it, she was a natural."" > > > > > > The absurdity of the whole article is summed up by the papers > > suggestion that the northumbrian pipes were an unknown instrument until > > K Tickell came on the scene..sums up their naiivety > > really! > > > > [1]http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2009/04/11/ > > schoolgirl-piper-jessica-a-star-in-the-making-61634-23362451/ > > > > > > > > > > LR > > > > > > > > __ > > > > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos Free. [2]Try it Now! -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > > http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2009/04/11/sch oolgirl-piper-jessica-a-star-in-the-making-61634-23362451/ > > 2. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > __ Windows Live Messenger just got better. [1]Find out more! -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665230/direct/01/
[NSP] Any Illinois pipers out there?
Cliff Harrison wrote: >>Hello, >>I am new to the list, and to Northumbrian piping. I recently acquired a set of "Northumbies" and I'm wondering if there >>might be any pipers lurking in my neck of the woods, specifically Illinois. >>Thanks and kind regards, >>Cliff Harrison Can't help you with finding pipers in the woods of Illinois -- woods? Illinois was all corn and red barns last time I was there -- but there is a tried and tested way to improve your piping 500% at a stroke, for zero effort. All you have to do is stop referring to the NSP as "Northumbies". Try it - you'll notice the improvement instantly! ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tradition and dance forms
One thing that might be worth considering in the context of the debate here over the past few days is that in at least one another tradition, the way a dance-based genre was originally danced need not determine how it later came to be played. I'm referring to "classical" music (or "Western art music", "mainstream music"... whatever you care to call it). Bach made great use of dance forms, for both harpsichord and other instruments, but not with a view to his music being danced to. The minuets in Mozart's symphonies are well away from the social dance from which they derive. Wagner called Beethoven's 7th Symphony "the apotheosis of the dance", but he didn't mean that it was actually music for dancing. The Strauss family's waltzes can (perhaps) be danced to but are in fact subtle concert pieces. Mahler makes much use of marches and dances but how the Austro-Hungarian armies actually marched or danced in the pub is only relevant in that it underlies Mahler's ironical use of these forms. My point would be that traditions develop in all kinds of ways under all kinds of influences - they go their own way. What they were like originally may come to be irrelevant. That said, returning to the roots may well be valuable and refreshing: thank God for "historically informed performance" of Baroque music, for example, and for Allan MacDonald's approach to piobaireachd. But we are not likely to want to hear the Blue Danube played as if it were a "Laendler", the folk dance from which it derives. Sorry to rant on about posh stuff like this. I shall reel off to the pub for a quick clog dance. Paul Gretton (Schimmert, Holland) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
Wot's them when them's out, Colon? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: rosspi...@aol.com [mailto:rosspi...@aol.com] Sent: 06 March 2009 19:20 To: i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution At least mine were typing omissions. CR -Original Message----- From: Paul Gretton To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:22 Subject: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution Malcolm's spelling errors seem to put him in good company, Colin, don't you think? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: rosspi...@aol.com [mailto:rosspi...@aol.com] Sent: 06 March 2009 11:42 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] malcom's final solution I have published in my Technical Advisors report in the forthcoming Newsletter a list of hole positions with diameters as the result of my own research into the tuning of chanters that is the result of forty years pipemaking and which is about 90% right. I think that Malcom should name the makers he is accusing of changing the hole positions, and if he thinks he can come up with a Unversal Theory of chanter making then he should think of helping Stephen Hawkin with his problem with arriving at a final theory. Learning to spell might be a start. CR To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
Malcolm's spelling errors seem to put him in good company, Colin, don't you think? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: rosspi...@aol.com [mailto:rosspi...@aol.com] Sent: 06 March 2009 11:42 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] malcom's final solution I have published in my Technical Advisors report in the forthcoming Newsletter a list of hole positions with diameters as the result of my own research into the tuning of chanters that is the result of forty years pipemaking and which is about 90% right. I think that Malcom should name the makers he is accusing of changing the hole positions, and if he thinks he can come up with a Unversal Theory of chanter making then he should think of helping Stephen Hawkin with his problem with arriving at a final theory. Learning to spell might be a start. CR To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>>>-Original Message- >>>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] >>>Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51 >>>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers >>>Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!! I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with. You can see how disorienting all this is! :-) Paul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. He used to play in the standard way with the instrument on his left shoulder and the bow in his right hand. Now he plays the other way round. Paul -Original Message- From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 15 January 2009 10:19 To: i...@gretton-willems.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers >Even more > disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an > accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play > "left-handed". A minor quibble, but do you mean "ruined his *left* hand"? I can imagine bowing with an injured right hand as long as the wrist, elbow and shoulder were still ok, but doing the job normally assigned to the left hand with an injured right sounds impossible. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Drunk in charge of a keyboard (was "Oops typos")
Like Barry, I seem to have been celebrating TGIF 48 hours too early. For "But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the left arm." please read "But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the right arm." Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Barry Say [mailto:barr...@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 14 January 2009 17:39 To: Nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Oops typos For Reel of Tullochgoram Thomas Wilson's read Reel of Tullochgoram in Thomas Wilson's For unch read bunch For tases read tastes Sorry Folks, not good enough. (Slaps own wrist and removes egg from face) Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
There were certainly engravers who got it wrong (perhaps as a result of the system of mirrors that they may have used), but the vast majority were professionals who were well aware that the ultimate product would be a mirror image of what was on the plate. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com [mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com] Sent: 14 January 2009 12:18 To: hil...@yahoo.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum Printing does give a mirror image, so unless the artist flips it in his head, that's what you get. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Prints of pipers
I have a large collection (= hundreds) of original prints of pipers (of all kinds) going back to the 15th century - OK, I'll admit that I've only got a single one from the 15^th century! ;-) - and thousand of illustrations of other (pre-classical) wind instruments. Pipers with the bag under the right arm are perfectly "normal", certainly until well into the 19^th century. The standard explanation for "bag under the left arm" becoming standard is that with the rise of GHB pipe bands it was inconvenient for marching if all the pipers didn't hold the bag on the same side. But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the left arm. The great John Burgess was ambidextrous and is supposed to have psyched out the opposition in the warm-up room before competitions by playing just as brilliantly with his right hand on top as the normal way. As regards pre-classical wind instruments in general, playing with the right hand uppermost was so common - at least according to the iconography - as to be basically just as "normal" as what we nowadays consider to be standard. It is only with the advent of complex key systems around 1800 that virtually everyone seems to have switched to the "left hand uppermost" way of playing. Obviously enough, it was economical for instrument makers to manufacture a standardised product. Even so, there are still makers who - if pressed - will provide "left-handed" versions of orchestral instruments. I have played in an orchestra with a "left-handed" clarinettist - it was a rather disorientating experience. We all looked at him, thinking "There's something wrong with that guy, but I can't quite say what." Even more disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play "left-handed". (Just think what that involves form the neurological point of view!!!) That was SERIOUSLY disorientating - and his desk partner feared for her eyes! Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ranting and raving
>>-Original Message- >>From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu >>So an iamb followed by a spondee? Let's just stick to the ever clear dots >>eh? >>c Yes, but how are we going to do that on this forum when we want to talk about how tune rhythms go and normal musical notation can't be displayed? One way of talking about musical prosody might be to use the good old ictus and brevis notation that is standard when discussing English poetry. I don't know whether that will show up correctly here, but I am talking about / and ˘ to indicate a heavy and a light stress. For example: ˘ / ˘ / ˘ / To be or not to be... ˘ / ˘ / ˘ / / / My love is like a red red rose... (PLEASE let's not get into a discussion of whether I've scanned these appropriately - you all know what I mean.) If the ˘ doesn't show up properly, an alternative is to use 0. Cheers, Paul Gretton, in the far south of Holland (or "The Netherlands" if you want to be posh), where the snow is deep and crisp and even, it will be 15 below tonight, and the sole topic of conversation -- well OK... other than the smoking ban in pubs -- is "Will the race go ahead or won't it?" To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ranting and raving
>>-Original Message-
>>From: rosspi...@aol.com [mailto:rosspi...@aol.com]
>>Sent: 04 January 2009 18:47
>>To: i...@gretton-willems.com
>>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>Subject: [NSP] Re: Ranting and raving
>>The start of the rant beat is the opposite of trochhee and more iambic
>>with two extra strong beats following the iambic te-tum. i.e.
te->>tum,tum,tum.
Err... Matt's illustration ("Nuts and raisins") is definitely two trochees.
Cheers,
Paul Gretton
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Rantin' and ravin'
Ladeez and genteelmen!! Welcome to the Grand Ol' Opry! Purleez take your pardners for the next dance. And this time it's the upbeat version of Thomas of Celano's great 13th-century classic RANT, y'all's ol' favorite, the "Dies irae": A wun, two, a wun, two, three, four... Dies irae! dies illa Solvet saeclum in favilla Teste David cum Sibylla! Quantus tremor est futurus, quando judex est venturus, cuncta stricte discussurus! YEE-HAW!! Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Ranting and raving
Colin wrote: >>I am glad you enjoyed reading the Journal which is designed to stimulate thought a wee bit more that the >>Newsletter. The article which was less than stimulating and in fact quite innaccurate was the one where Sarah >>Paton commented on the financial running of the NPS and also on 'attitude' at our regular meetings which she >>has not attended so how could she know as applies to her knowledge of the work of our Treasurer. >>Anthony tries to make it easy for young people to grasp ideas of rhythm by vocalising them which works most >>of the time but he got a tomato in the face over the rant rhythm. If I can give the idea of the foot tapping >>rhythm which is the basis of what you are writing about it can be expressed? in cut common as lead >>note,?quaver/ crotchet, crotchet,crotchet, quaver? rest,quaver/ crotchet...etc. However the tunes used may >>not be exactly in that rhythm but would still allow the dancers to tap out the rhythm with their hard shoes. >>A slowish reel would allow the dancers to tap out the rhythm in certain parts of the dance albeit a bit >>faster than in a regular rant Err... yes, exactly. I think that makes things perfectly clear. We can probably drop this topic now. Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Ranting and raving
John Dally wrote: >>Anthony Robb described the rhythm of a rant as "tomato". Checking the reference (Northumbrian Pipers' Society Magazine, Volume 29, 2008, page 20), I see that what he actually said was: "In a nutshell think bounce not speed and as a general rule if the pulse is coming out as tomato soup, tomato soup then it will be a true rant. If the pulse is more gob-stopper, gob-stopper then it isn't a rant, it's a reel." [The "ma" in "tomato" and the "gob" in "gob-stopper" are bold in the original text, but I doubt if that will be reproduced here.] Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Ranting and raving
Matt wrote: >>>For the Rant rhythm, how about >>>Nuts-and-Rais-ins >>>where the heavier stress is on -Rais- So - just to formalise (confuse?) matters -- two trochees (i.e. a ditrochee), with the second ictus being stronger than the first? Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: English culinary traditions - a rough guide
-Original Message- From: Dru Brooke-Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Has anyone any thoughts of what prizes of 3, 5 and 10 gn (£3.05, £5.25 >>and £10.50) represented in real terms in 1878? http://www.measuringworth.com/ppoweruk/?redirurl=calculators/ppoweruk/ Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Oil and health
Be afraid! Be very afraid! But if you're into this kind of thing, you might also like to take some time to worry about percutaneous copper and zinc poisoning from the brass of your keys (assuming you have one of those nasty cheapo sets - yuk! I prefer solid gold). I myself never play the pipes without wearing at least three pairs of rubber gloves. Natural latex only, of course! Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Richard York [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 November 2008 18:41 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Oil and health Hello all. I'm wary of opening a debate which could possibly re-visit too many personal differences, but would welcome any bio-chemically-minded comment on something I found recently. A leaflet we have describes all sorts of personal & household products with natural alternatives, and the advantages & disadvantages of each - with an obvious spin towards the green/natural alternatives, which appeals to me emotionally at least. It included the statement that petroleum-based things had carcinogenic properties, and didn't recommend them at all. Admittedly it was discussing what it politely called intimate personal lubricant, so it's referring to contact with more mucous membranes than are generally encountered by the average chanter... but it's often commented that using different oils on your chanter does affect your hand skin, so it does obviously penetrate the player's skin. And it's possible to spend quite a few hours plugged into the pipes over the years! Any comments, preferably polite, welcome :-) Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re piper's pitch v. concert pitch
Francis (Wood) wrote: >>>The course of instrumental pitch is a complex and controversial one. Indeed! For anyone seriously interested in this topic, there is now a fascinating book by Bruce Haynes: A History of Performing Pitch: The Story of "A" http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6657/is_/ai_n29072831 http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Performing-Pitch-Bruce-Haynes/dp/0810841851/ ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226584158&sr=8-5 Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Amazing Grace
Oh dear! I was fully expecting someone to come up with a tediously humourless response to my Amazing Grease riff, but I hadn't actually expected personal insults. Anyway, to stick with the substance... As you say: hackneyed, shopworn, one of only a couple of tunes associated with bagpipes... In fact it's played to the exclusion of virtually everything else. When people in the States* think bagpipes, they think Amazing Grace (and perhaps that Other Tune too). That's my main objection to it (although I admit I personally find it a dull and boring tune as such). But as you say, it's doubtless there to stay. I would add: ousting a whole slew of far more worthy tunes (like Flowers of the Forest, and many glorious piobaireachd urlars that would be very appropriate for funerals). But I would prefer it to be "there" to stay -- i.e. on your side of the Atlantic -- rather than come back "here" to stay. Yes, I know a Scottish regimental band was responsible for it becoming a hit in the first place, but it doesn't yet permeate things over this side as it does in the States*, thank goodness. And it would be awful if it came to play a similarly dominant and excluding role in the Northumbrian repertoire too. * I'm not up on the situation in Canada. Cheers, Paul -Original Message- From: Jim Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 November 2008 22:00 To: NSP Mailing List Subject: [NSP] Amazing Grace Dear Paul Gretton, Relax. Chill out. Take a pill. The sky isn't about to fall. Referring to Amazing Grace as an "awful piece of slop" suggests, to me at least, that you're having a bad hair day, you have some kind of bee in your bonnet, or you got up on the wrong side of the bed. Or all of the above. Life's too short to work yourself into such a lather, my friend. Oh, I know the tune is hackneyed and shopworn. I know all that. I also know it's one of only several tunes that ever gets associated with Highland bagpipes these days. As a musician, born in Scotland, with a deep love of piping in all its forms, that bothers me as well. But don't blame the tune for that. I went to a beautiful Remembrance Day service yesterday. Here (Canada), Amazing Grace has been part of such events for a great many years. The pipe band and the military band play it together as the wreaths are laid on the cenotaph. Even though I've heard that "awful piece of slop" thousands of times, it still moves me to tears. As does the solitary piper with Floo'ers o' the Forest. It's ingrained now, Paul. It's part of something that's bigger than all of us, part of a tradition that means a lot to a lot of people. Don't begrudge us that. Regards, Jim PS I think Highland Cathedral is a nice tune. Not ashamed to admit it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Music for funeral
'fraid not, Colin. You'll just have to live with it. Big fan of The Carpenters too, are you? Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: colin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 November 2008 13:52 To: NSP List Subject: [NSP] Re: Music for funeral Alas, I'm finding myself saying "oh, that's a nice tune" now that I have heard it :( I'm even thinking of searching for the dots. Is there any hope for me? Is there a cure? Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Chris Ormston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "NSP List" Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Music for funeral > > Now I can't get Highland Cathedral out of my head! Grrr > I wonder if they've tried using it as a form of torture at Guantanamo > Bay??? > > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:03:40 + > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > CC: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [NSP] Re: Music for funeral > > > > "And don't play effin' Highland Cathedral either" > > > > Should that be Highland Cathedral ineff and a ' , > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Paul Gretton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:40 PM > > Subject: [NSP] Music for funeral > > > > > > > My gut reaction is: play anything appropriate - there are lots of > > > options - but please, please, please don't play Amazing Grace! I > don't > > > think one should do anything that might contribute to that awful > piece > > > of slop becoming a part of the Northumberland repertoire too. It > would > > > be dreadful if it ever became a standard feature of funerals on > this > > > side of the Atlantic the way it has in the States. And in the > States > > > the problem is not just with funerals: over there, there are only > two > > > tunes associated with bagpipes (of any type), namely Amazing Grace > and > > > that other one. > > > > > > > > > There was no Amazing Grace at the Cenotaph this morning and I think > you > > > may agree that the somber ceremony of commemoration was still > pretty > > > effective. > > > > > > > > > And don't play effin' Highland Cathedral either > > > > > > > > > Paul Gretton > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > --- > - > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: > 11/11/2008 > > 8:59 AM > > > > > -- > > >
[NSP] Re: Music for funeral
Be it upon your own head! ...or rather your stomach. I hope you have a strong one. BTW, Highland Kitschthedral is not the "other one" that I referred to. That's another one. ;-) Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: colin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 November 2008 00:44 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Music for funeral You swine! I don't know it either so I'm having Googling frantically for an audio file now (safer then choyting) to see what I'm missing! Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Paul Gretton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Music for funeral > > You are lucky! Make sure you keep it that way. Don't go Googling for an > audio file out of curiosity, for example. > > Cheers, Paul > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Music for funeral
You are lucky! Make sure you keep it that way. Don't go Googling for an audio file out of curiosity, for example. Cheers, Paul -Original Message- From: Lynn Patterson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 November 2008 19:55 To: Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Music for funeral and I don't even know Highland Cathedral! Lynn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Music for funeral
Cattivo, Mr Dally! Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 November 2008 19:55 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Music for funeral I have the dots for Amazing Grace (with twelve part harmony) if anyone wants them. ;-) John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Music for funeral
My gut reaction is: play anything appropriate - there are lots of options - but please, please, please don't play Amazing Grace! I don't think one should do anything that might contribute to that awful piece of slop becoming a part of the Northumberland repertoire too. It would be dreadful if it ever became a standard feature of funerals on this side of the Atlantic the way it has in the States. And in the States the problem is not just with funerals: over there, there are only two tunes associated with bagpipes (of any type), namely Amazing Grace and that other one. There was no Amazing Grace at the Cenotaph this morning and I think you may agree that the somber ceremony of commemoration was still pretty effective. And don't play effin' Highland Cathedral either!!!! Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] tchuning
This tells you it all you need to know. ;-) [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0 Cheers, Paul Gretton -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Pavarotti and musical taste
Chirs wrote: >>>Bad taste I suppose ;-) - as exhibited by, imho, the likes of Pavarotti and Kreisler, who I gather are quite >>>popular in some circles. The "right" way to sing and play the violin, I believe. Hm I realize this is off topic but I would just like to say in Pavarotti's defence that there is an enormous difference between the glorious lirico-spinto that he was originally (and which he remained for much of his career) and the musical buffoon of his latter years, with all the "Three Tenors" and Nessun-Dorma-as-a-football-anthem crap. Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Choyting again (was [Etymology of the 'C' word - 2)
I would like to suggest that if we are going to discuss choyting again and want to refer to bagpipes with an open-ended chanter, we distinguish between - "cuttings", i.e. the obligatory super-short notes that are necessary on an open-ended chanter in order to articulate at all; - "grace notes" (or "gracings"), i.e. twiddly bits that are not necessary for articulation but are put in because the composer or player thinks they sound good. Choyting on the NSP would fall into the latter category. Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] It's not the leaving of Newcastle that grieves him...or does it?
All over Geordieland, pitmen and shepherds have been burning the midnight oil putting the finishing touches to "The Magpies' Lament", aka "Will `e or won't `e?" aka "'Appen `e as, `appen `e asn't". Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] chooning
Chirs wrote: >>>In theory, at least according to some authorities, the nsp chanter is tuned in just intonation (pure >>>intervals sound better against the drones) and of course it can only be perfect in one key. Even if it's >>>"ideally" tuned for G major, you have to decide whether you want the E to make a pure fifth with the low A or >>>a pure third with the C - you can't have both. And the B and A will be considerably flat and a bit sharp >>>respectively relative to a piano or other equal temperament instrument (or tuning device). Various "early" wind instruments exist with sliding gadgets for altering the size of one or more holes on the fly so as to play in tune in different keys. I have also seen a very beautiful home-made copy, by a German player, of one of the "smallpipes" shown by Praetorius ([1]http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Syntagma07.png). This had sleeves (similar to NSP tuning beads) to change hole sizes so as to get a major or minor third and a flat or sharp leading note. (I don't remember the chap's name. He wasn't a professional maker but his workmanship was marvellous.) This idea could be used on the NSP for tempering purposes, I suppose, but it would probably need to be a slider rather than a sleeve. Worth it? BTW, if you are interested in temperament, you may like to read Ross W. Duffin's 2007 book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)." Cheers, Paul Gretton -- References 1. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Syntagma07.png To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...
Allan wrote: >>Why the condescending groan at my desire to play the instrument of my youth, I simply find it hard to understand why anyone would play any musical instrument for any reason other than musical. >>I grew up in Northumberland. I miss it. Without any irony or sarcasm, I understand entirely. I wish I'd grown up in a place worth missing rather than in Scumbag City. >>I play the pipes for that reason. Does that not fit into your statement?= Hmmm... all I can say is that I just don't get it. I too live abroad - have done for 36 years - but I don't see how choosing to play a particular instrument would reconnect me to my youth (assuming that that would be a "good thing"). Cheers (and not wishing to be unpleasant in any way). Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] connecting with one's roots
Steve D wrote: >>On the Wright Allan's suggestion that he is playing playing NSP to connect with his rootsnothing wrong >>with that. If any of us think that playing NSP or any other instrument is 'not' a representation of our >>identities then we need to look closer. Sorry, but I don't understand you. I can see that one's choice of instrument can express a certain personality or "character". I can also see that growing up in Northumberland, Ireland, Brittany or Scotland - with a certain instrument as part of the scenery - might lead you to play a certain type of pipe. But I don't see what you mean by "identity" here I was born on the Isle of Man and spent most of my youth in Liverpool (oh the shame! but don't worry, I've had the operation). I took up the NSP because I was enraptured by the sound on hearing a Billy Pigg recording when I was about 20. How on earth does my playing the NSP (and the big bad Highland pipes too) represent my "identity"? Just wondering. Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] choyte
Colin wrote: >>>Has anyone come up with the etymology of the word ' choyte'? I find it being used as a shibboleth and fear >>>that if I refuse to acknowledge it I will have my fingers cut off. I wonder if it's a form of "cheat"? (Just a guess - languages are my business, but admittedly not northeast dialects. ;-) ) Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Plaid 'n stuff
Julia wrote: >>3) Plaid is bad >>>I've been told the weave was different in each valley so that when a frozen corpse was found on the hills in the spring the body could be identified. But being a canny lass, you thought "pull the other one!" >>>Even then the Duke's piper was / is the only one to whom it was / is relevant, and the first one of those to >>>use the whole rig out - blackcock feather and all was Jack Armstrong, piper from 1949-78, although James Hall >>>came close in the late C19 >>>Traditional? I don't think so. >>>Expedient on occasion today? Probably. Enough folk have got them that I needn't bother. Phew Used to cover >>>musical deficiency? You may so, I couldn't possibly comment! >>>Julia Me meself persunelly, I like the traditional look of the "Birkenstock Band" on the cover of the October 2003 NPS Newsletter. ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Articulation
Julia wrote: >>>However it set me to wondering whether there were connections between the articulated style of the violinists >>>/ fiddlers of the period and the articulation of the closed chanter, developing about the same time (as far >>>as we know). Articulation is dealt with at length in various 18th-century treatises on both wind and string playing, for example Leopold Mozart's book on the violin. Highly relevant - especially for wind instruments - is Quantz's 1752 book on playing the flute. (This is in fact about a great deal more than just the flute - virtually an encyclopedia of "performance practice"!) The various 17th-century books on diminutions also go into great detail about articulation. In general, diminutions were not slurred. Most relevant of all to the NSP would be Hotteterre's 1738 book on the musette. If I could find my copy, I could give you some quotes. Although the main chanter of the musette is open, the closed fingering means you can produce more or less the same effect as on a closed chanter. The musette also played all the enormous range of -choyting ;-) - baroque ornaments, which included trills and mordents. You can get an idea of the variety at [1]http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/5658078/a/Corrette:+Pi %E8ces+Pour+La+Vielle+Ou+Musette+Et+Basse+Continue.htm Perhaps the most important thing to note is that all the sources stress the need for a wide VARIETY of articulations. I don't think Clough meant that everything should be played staccatissimo. That's not how he played himself, to judge by the recordings. Paul Gretton -- References 1. http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/5658078/a/Corrette:+Pi%E8ces+Pour+La+Vielle+Ou+Musette+Et+Basse+Continue.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Pipers in the Netherlands ?
There is a very good player in Leeuwarden called Gerrit de Vries, whose playing would be an excellent "advert" for the instrument. I don't feel I can publish Gerrit's contact details here but if the fellow in Alkmaar likes to phone me, I can pass them on to him. Leeuwarden is easy to get to from Alkmaar. Paul Gretton 045 404 0136 (Schimmert, near Maastricht) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 January 2008 00:08 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Pipers in the Netherlands ? Evening all - I've had an e-mail from someone in the Netherlands (Alkmaar) who wants to find out if the NSP is an instrument for them. Is there anybody in the locality I could put them in touch with? thanks Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: old Towler
The OED says that "towl" is a form of "toll" and that a "toller" is "A decoy; spec.[ifically] a dog of a small breed used in decoying ducks." It associates the word with less familiar meanings of "toll", namely to entice, decoy, allure, incite, instigate... These semantics would seem to fit with the activity of hunting dogs in general, not just decoy dogs. Paul Gretton (ex-lexicographer) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 December 2007 19:37 To: Dru Brooke-Taylor Cc: nsp Subject: [NSP] Re: old Towler What does the word "towler" mean? I've looked it up on a couple of on-line Scots and Geordie dictionaries, but found nothing. For me the tune title conjures up an image of an oldster wrapped in a soggy towel having just emerged from his bath. I'm happy to replace it with that of a beagle or stag hound leaping over hill and dale. John Dru Brooke-Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/11/2007 10:20 AM To nsp cc Subject [NSP] old Towler Oh dear. This is embarrassing. I hadn't thought of checking the words. As this song is linked in my mind, rightly or wrongly, with Yorkshire, I'd taken for granted Old Towler pursued foxes. Dru On 11 Dec 2007, at 15:39, Colin wrote: > Er, a little more than implied. The last line of the chorus is "This > day a > stag must die" which is then repeated.(I have been singing it for over > 30 > years anyway). > Colin Hill > > - Original Message - > From: "Ged Foxe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 9:08 PM > Subject: [NSP] Re: old Towler > > >> I've missed the beginning of this thread, I think, so this may have > already >> been refuted, but the song implies that Old Towler was a stag hound. >> >> Jeremy >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Dru Brooke-Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "nsp" >> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:20 PM >> Subject: [NSP] Re: old Towler >> >> >>> Old Towler was indeed a fox hound. Hence the wintry connection. >>> >>> Dru >>> >>> >>> On 7 Dec 2007, at 17:31, Marianne Hall wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I always though Old Towler was a fox hound. We learn something new > every >>>> day>Marianne. >>>> -- >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > --
[NSP] G set
Before this discussion goes any further, can I just emphasise that my responses were solely to the suggestion that playing a tone up on the standard chanter is a viable alternative to buying a G chanter. I took it that Klaus wants to play the usual NSP stuff (and perhaps other kinds of music) with other musicians at concert pitch, not just slow or simple tunes. I was not talking about transposing as such or playing in different keys. Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: G Set
"Bizarre" ??? Not entirely serious, I admit, as indicated by the winking smiley at the end. Yes, it is of course perfectly possible to play a tone up - I do it all the time on various instruments, including NSP. (For trumpet, you have to learn to sight-read much harder transpositions than this one; in a 19th-century symphony you may be switching to a different transposition every few bars. And Italian clarinettists play everything on the A clarinet, poor sods.) But the fact that something is possible doesn't mean it's necessarily a practical option, which it seemed to me was what the original poster was asking about. If playing everything a tone up were the solution then there would be no market for G chanters. Are there really people who consider it practical to rattle through the repertoire - including the "big" hornpipes - a tone up? (Assuming their chanter has the keys to do it.) It's not just like slapping a capo on a guitar. And of course if the original poster's chanter plays at around F#, then the suggestion becomes entirely impractical. I agree that people would do well to learn to transpose, but there is a good reason for G chanters, as you yourself would seem to have discovered! BTW, it's confusing to say that recorder players "have to learn different fingerings for different [instruments]." The fingerings remain the same, although the player has to be able to read various keys/clefs. That is very different to playing a tone up on the NSP. And if a recorder player is called on to play at 415, 392, or 466 as opposed to 440, they will use an instrument built for that pitch rather than transpose. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Ewan Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 May 2007 02:36 To: Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: G Set This is a very bizarre response, Paul, to something put forward as a sensible and reasonable suggestion. It is perfectly possible to play in A. Playing in E might stretch the technique a bit, but it could be done on slower tunes. (Of course, I do have a G chanter myself!) Cheers, Ewan. Ewan Barker School of Information Technology & Mathematical Sciences University of Ballarat (CRICOS Provider Number 00103D) PO Box 663 Ballarat Victoria 3353 AUSTRALIA ph (03) 5327 9274 >>> "Paul Gretton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 27-May-07 5:37:05 am >>> Hilarious John! Have you thought of doing stand-up? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Rev John Clifford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 May 2007 21:01 To: Klaus Guhl Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: G Set Klaus, There is an alternative, and much cheaper -- learn to play your existing chanter with alternative fingering -- recorder players have to learn different fingerings for different chanters so it can be done. John Clifford who has a C chanter and can play it as a D chanter when playing with other pipers. > As playing with other musicans I am thinking of buying a G chanter or a > secondhand G set. Is there someone who wants to sell a G chanter or G set? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Virus scanned by Lumison. > > > ownerpageof
[NSP] Re: G Set
Hilarious John! Have you thought of doing stand-up? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Rev John Clifford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 May 2007 21:01 To: Klaus Guhl Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: G Set Klaus, There is an alternative, and much cheaper -- learn to play your existing chanter with alternative fingering -- recorder players have to learn different fingerings for different chanters so it can be done. John Clifford who has a C chanter and can play it as a D chanter when playing with other pipers. > As playing with other musicans I am thinking of buying a G chanter or a > secondhand G set. Is there someone who wants to sell a G chanter or G set? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Virus scanned by Lumison. > > >
[NSP] Re: thumb injury
Sorry to hear about this, John. I wish you all the best for a speedy recovery. Can I suggest that you contact the Seattle Conservatory (or another big conservatory) and ask if they know of a doctor or physiotherapist with experience of dealing with injuries to musicians? I know from the experience of several musician friends here in Holland (and previously in Germany) that there are physiotherapists who specialise in this kind of thing in addition to their normal work. (The cases I know of concerned shoulder injuries to violinists and a facial injury to a trombonist, rather than hands, but still) If there are specialists in Amsterdam and Cologne, I would be sure that there will be at least one in Seattle. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2007 18:10 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] thumb injury Last Saturday I crashed on my bicycle avoiding a couple of dogs at the bottom of a long downhill. The worst of my injuries is a torn ligament between my thumb and forefinger on my right hand. I was in the drops when I hit the pavement and jammed my thumb against the handle bar, pushing it in the opposite direction of its normal bent. It requires surgery to reattach, which I'm scheduled to have next Monday. The orthopedic doctor gave me some very bad news about how this will effect the movement of my right thumb. He said I need physical therapy to do regular things like typing on a key board, so I'm very concerned how this will effect my ability to hit keys with my thumb. Has anyone here ever had this injury and how did you get back up to speed on the pipes after surgery? I hope the doctor was just giving me a worse case scenario. all the best, John Dally -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Mike Nancy (not Tom Clough's Nancy, though!)
Mike Sharp wrote: >>Paul Gretton wrote: >>> Why not do a Nancy Reagan and "Just Say NO!" ? (BTW, it's copyright.) >>> >>Just Say No! ...to empty, dogmatic slogans. Just Say No! .to people who lack a sense of humour. ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Highland Cathedral
>>I've just had an enquiry for these from a newish nsp player, so I'm hoping someone out there could send me abc / >>jpg / whatever in nsp key so it's less work to pass it on. >>Thanx >>Julia Why not do a Nancy Reagan and "Just Say NO!" ? (BTW, it's copyright.) Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] boring discovery
I could tell you a story about trying to buy nitric acid from a local pharmacy here in Holland to use for etching. I eventually got it, but I had to show them a plate that I'd already etched before they'd believe me. Cheers, Paul Gretton Schimmert, NL -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
