Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Dan Swartzendruber dswa...@druber.com wrote: And this continues to miss the point. ... but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier Which point are you missing? You rc.local thing is trivially easy to address, there are well known and obvious ways to do it, and several people pointed out how you could do so in a few seconds. There are lots of things in OI that need fixing, seeing people making up non-existent problems and bikeshedding about forums vs smtp and users vs developers and OS choices is so frustrating. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
doesn't pull let them manage their own time better? Yes. This is why my vote is for forum, not mailing list. Dmitry. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On 10/11/2011 6:10 AM, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: doesn't pull let them manage their own time better? Yes. This is why my vote is for forum, not mailing list. Dmitry. I've stayed out of this thread thus far, and probably will going forward, but I vastly prefer mail lists and I think the above is a non-argument. Forums do not allow better time management by any objective means. In a mail list, I am equally capable of sending all of the mail list to a folder, or not, threaded in my mail reader, or not, as I choose, and I can read them whenever I want. If I see a topic pop up that interests me, I can read it then, or not. I can make agile changes in my interests easily. Forums have one major failing for me: Out of sight is out of mind. If I have to go to a website, login (maybe it has cookies, maybe it doesn't; maybe it does and I don't want the website to remember my password!) then find the thread or topic where I left off, which will take a few clicks or more depending upon how long it has been. Mail messages are all right there, and I only need to go to the most recent undeleted or unread one with less effort. But, there is also a tradeoff in volume. If a mail list starts receiving 100s of messages a day it becomes less useful and it might as well be a forum. Linux kernel development lists come to mind. Those would be more useful as a forum. There are very few topics in there that actually might interest me and the flood of mail makes it a chore. OI is a smallish mail list (aside from this thread!) so managing the (normally) 20 messages that come in in a day is easier in my inbox. thresholds matter. $.02 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Tue, 2011-10-11 at 09:16 +0100, Peter Tribble wrote: On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Dan Swartzendruber dswa...@druber.com wrote: And this continues to miss the point. ... but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier Which point are you missing? You rc.local thing is trivially easy to address, there are well known and obvious ways to do it, and several people pointed out how you could do so in a few seconds. There are lots of things in OI that need fixing, seeing people making up non-existent problems and bikeshedding about forums vs smtp and users vs developers and OS choices is so frustrating. Hello Peter: I think your accusations of bikeshedding are unfounded and unkind. Many stayed out of this discussion until noting that a few oi-dev regulars like Alasdair, jeffpc, drlou, herzen, etc. expressed some interest in exploring possibility of forums. Such being the case, it seems more than appropriate for further discussion to occur on oi-discuss - note the word following the hyphen there - where a broader cross section of oi users might have the opportunity to weigh in. I have been involved in various projects over the years that that utilized mlm long before forums were an option. Yet when some, e.g. FreeBSD, finally acknowledged the changing times the issue was discussed before anyone ran out and launched forums.freebsd.org. To the best of my knowledge I have _never_ used these forums, but I don't bitch about them being available for others. Or that others talked about it at some length before moving forward with rolling them out. Yes, the forum issue has come up before in oi, but to my awareness, not for a little while now, and not ever discussed in any depth. Yeah, us old dogs have seen these arguments before and may have a tendency to sigh and shake our heads. But that doesn't make them irrelevant to the discussion at hand. People disagreeing, discussing, etc. on oi-discuss is not a bad thing. Yes, a couple people got a bit heated and sunk to some mild name calling, but this was nothing even close to what happens from time to time on even high profile projects. Those so easily offended need to grow thicker skin. Maybe never move out from Mommy's house. Or whatever. My $0.02 Peace-- -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
+1 On 11 October 2011 15:32, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: Hello Peter: I think your accusations of bikeshedding are unfounded and unkind. Many stayed out of this discussion until noting that a few oi-dev regulars like Alasdair, jeffpc, drlou, herzen, etc. expressed some interest in exploring possibility of forums. Such being the case, it seems more than appropriate for further discussion to occur on oi-discuss - note the word following the hyphen there - where a broader cross section of oi users might have the opportunity to weigh in. I have been involved in various projects over the years that that utilized mlm long before forums were an option. Yet when some, e.g. FreeBSD, finally acknowledged the changing times the issue was discussed before anyone ran out and launched forums.freebsd.org. To the best of my knowledge I have _never_ used these forums, but I don't bitch about them being available for others. Or that others talked about it at some length before moving forward with rolling them out. Yes, the forum issue has come up before in oi, but to my awareness, not for a little while now, and not ever discussed in any depth. Yeah, us old dogs have seen these arguments before and may have a tendency to sigh and shake our heads. But that doesn't make them irrelevant to the discussion at hand. People disagreeing, discussing, etc. on oi-discuss is not a bad thing. Yes, a couple people got a bit heated and sunk to some mild name calling, but this was nothing even close to what happens from time to time on even high profile projects. Those so easily offended need to grow thicker skin. Maybe never move out from Mommy's house. Or whatever. My $0.02 Peace-- -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Sorry i so late to this party.. So i was hired by nexenta as community manager. i have illumos as one of my communities. We have redmine running already and forums are available. I have only been at this for a short time, but it appears that most of the distro's come from illumos, and that might be the right location for general solaris admin info. I actually have that on my list of things to do... My first project was going to be around smf. Anyone who would like to help.. I am all for that. Please contact me directly lk On 10/8/11 6:20 PM, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: So if you are still open to helping, that makes two persons who are ready to help with a forum-type setting. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com Keep in mind that the current wiki is outdated and disorganized. I offered to help with it, but got no reply and still have no wiki account. -- Lyubomir Grigorov (bgalakazam) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Linda Kateley Global Evangelist and Community Manager (mobile) 612-807-6349 (email) linda.kate...@nexenta.com (skype) lkateley ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On 11.10.2011, at 21:05, Linda Kateley wrote: We have redmine running already and forums are available. The problem with these forums from nexenta is, that there are a lot (!) of spam posts and nobody from nexenta cares about it... Ps.: This rant is not about radiant at all - we are using it too for our projects... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
I will personally apologize for the spam on the nexenta forums.. The other guy quit months ago and it took me awhile to catch on... If you see anymore spam please let me know, right now i feel like i have it under control...Our company is growing at 400% and the forums got overlooked... lk On 10/11/11 2:12 PM, qutic development wrote: On 11.10.2011, at 21:05, Linda Kateley wrote: We have redmine running already and forums are available. The problem with these forums from nexenta is, that there are a lot (!) of spam posts and nobody from nexenta cares about it... Ps.: This rant is not about radiant at all - we are using it too for our projects... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Linda Kateley Global Evangelist and Community Manager (mobile) 612-807-6349 (email) linda.kate...@nexenta.com (skype) lkateley ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 02:51:13 -0400, Richard wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: [snip] I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1 A mailing list is fine too, and the mailing list archives will take care of it being searchable. I don't mind if the lists are bridged to a webforum. A server that does not exchange info with other NNTP servers, and requires a login to post, seems like it would work well enough. Sounds like subscription, that's what mailing lists are for ;) -- ( Kees Nuyt ) c[_] ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
It might be an idea to look at www.opennms.org. They also struggle with documentation, users, updates and helpfiles but manage to get it good pretty well. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 09:56 +0200, Open Indiana wrote: It might be an idea to look at www.opennms.org. They also struggle with documentation, users, updates and helpfiles but manage to get it good pretty well. Whoa! It's been a while since I've been to OpenNMS's site. Nice redesign. Much better than the wiki they used to use. Kind of a bummer that they went so commercial though on the .com side. So now we likely know where the $ and impetus came for the new site. Hope it isn't the beginning of the end of a truly open OpenNMS. In my experience, however, in such cases it isn't too long before 1) you start seeing major features being withheld from the free version, and/or 2) the free version becomes the alpha testing branch, and/or 3) refactor and license change at some major rev level. That said, OpenNMS isn't doing anything special that any other mature FOSS project hasn't figured out - it just took them many, many more years to get there than most so I'm not sure they'd be the best role model in that department. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 9, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Любомир Григоров wrote: That attitude is why OpenBSD will continue to exist on the periphery of the technology space, in spite of all the great tools they are sitting on. Precisely. And it looks like OI people want to go the same path. If an appetite for world domination, or even for being all things to all people, spending more time reaching out than perfecting oneself, is necessary to avoid obscurity and oblivion, I'd prefer oblivion. I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. It will be just as I said earlier - the userland will consist of the devs and a bunch of fanboys, no one will know the OS and will just view it as another one. This whole conversation and all the emails in it just proves OI is not ready to be a real OS. Maybe in 10 years after it matures I will give it another go. Like things stand, it's headed in the OpenBSD path. All the best. -- Lyubomir Grigorov (bgalakazam) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 3:22 AM, Kees Nuyt wrote: On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 02:51:13 -0400, Richard wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: [snip] I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1 A mailing list is fine too, and the mailing list archives will take care of it being searchable. I don't mind if the lists are bridged to a webforum. A server that does not exchange info with other NNTP servers, and requires a login to post, seems like it would work well enough. Sounds like subscription, that's what mailing lists are for ;) But news readers have tools that are better suited to following conversations of interest (or excluding those not of interest) in very large volumes. Mail can be overwhelming at a few hundred a day, but one can keep up with Usenet on the level of thousands of posts a day (if one uses the tools to be selective, and reads fast). NNTP and SMTP are really quite similar, except news is always retrieved from one or potentially a network of servers, while SMTP may be either delivered or retrieved as the last step. Both can handle attachments, and both can have clients that are might lighter weight than web browsers (and servers much less prone to problems than some used with web forums). Light and fast are helpful when trying to keep up with a large volume. One can of course continue to use mailing lists, but to set them up in such a way that they can be made available to NNTP clients via gmane, or something similar. There's usually a lot less trouble bridging mail and news than mail and web forums, I should think; yet news (in its readers, and in the basic search functions of the server) offers some forum-like functionality that mail does not. Readers shouldn't be a problem; everyone should probably have or be able to get Seamonkey, or for those unfortunates not able to separate themselves from Windows, Outlook Express (which IIRC has a news reading capability). Not that those are the only choices, by any means. The one advantage I can see with a web forum is if there were a lot of large attachments anticipated. On a web forum, they wouldn't have to be subjected to a bandwidth-hungry encoding to pass over mail. People have of course passed around large attachments with news, but it's ugly, unless one has a reader that's specifically meant to put that back together again. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Любомир Григоров wrote: I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. It will be just as I said earlier - the userland will consist of the devs and a bunch of fanboys, no one will know the OS and will just view it as another one. This whole conversation and all the emails in it just proves OI is not ready to be a real OS. Maybe in 10 years after it matures I will give it another go. Like things stand, it's headed in the OpenBSD path. It doesn't have to be that way. Those of you who want to do outreach, or handholding of clueless newbies, go for it. Keep them away from those who don't want to deal with that, and everybody will be happy. We don't need to all be wanting to make everybody just like us, or to prove that we're the best. Somebody probably has to do customer service type things, assuming that means anything if nobody is getting paid to do it. But that will not usually be me. I'll answer a question if I think it's interesting, or useful, or at least that someone made an effort before asking. I won't usually bother with people who just want their problems to go away; I think they're more freeloaders than they are useful as spreaders of the One True (whatever)…assuming I thought there was any value in the concept of a One True (whatever). Mostly I just want _choices_. For some things, the Solaris-origin kernel is the best. It'd be the best for more things if the desktop experience were better. But it kicks tail for servers and appliances. With smartphones and tablets, desktops may not be the way to getting big numbers anyway, not that I think much of big numbers that just follow the usual bell curve. But if you think big numbers of new users are the way to go, it shouldn't stop you from pursuing that just because not everyone sees that need as you do. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello Любомир Григоров and List, On Oktober, 10 2011, 18:59 Любомир Григоров wrote in [1]: I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. It will be just as I said earlier - the userland will consist of the devs and a bunch of fanboys, no one will know the OS and will just view it as another one. This whole conversation and all the emails in it just proves OI is not ready to be a real OS. Maybe in 10 years after it matures I will give it another go. Like things stand, it's headed in the OpenBSD path. +1 Sad but true. -- Best Regards Alexander Oktober, 10 2011 [1] mid:cahi1jsdzlrz5ydfrtcubdhnltzgzagzrl3gszmwvwo1hqn6...@mail.gmail.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 21:21 +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: Hello Любомир Григоров and List, On Oktober, 10 2011, 18:59 Любомир Григоров wrote in [1]: I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. It will be just as I said earlier - the userland will consist of the devs and a bunch of fanboys, no one will know the OS and will just view it as another one. This whole conversation and all the emails in it just proves OI is not ready to be a real OS. Maybe in 10 years after it matures I will give it another go. Like things stand, it's headed in the OpenBSD path. +1 Sad but true. This is such BULLSHIT!!! Would OI be as successful as OpenBSD. Or FreeBSD!! So you *BSD bashers might just want to back off and scratch it a bit before making such categorical broad sweeping statements. THE reason alternatives to Linux have been able to persist is that not EVERYONE wants Linux. Indeed, the more advanced/seasoned the person seems to be the greater the probability that they will value/utilize a Linux alternative precisely because it is NOT hampered by Linux's shortcomings. Following/emulating Linux is a mistake. Sun should have learned that at least a couple years earlier and they may not have become the financial disaster that led to the current Oracle mess. Instead, OI should actively strive to DIFFERENTIATE itself from Linux, lest it become relegated to yet another fanboy distro of the month. Those of you who want/need Linux please, by all means, go use Linux!!! But please, please, please stop lobbying to turn OI into Linux. Peace-- -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 4:25 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 21:21 +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: Hello Любомир Григоров and List, On Oktober, 10 2011, 18:59 Любомир Григоров wrote in [1]: I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. It will be just as I said earlier - the userland will consist of the devs and a bunch of fanboys, no one will know the OS and will just view it as another one. This whole conversation and all the emails in it just proves OI is not ready to be a real OS. Maybe in 10 years after it matures I will give it another go. Like things stand, it's headed in the OpenBSD path. +1 Sad but true. This is such BULLSHIT!!! Would OI be as successful as OpenBSD. Or FreeBSD!! So you *BSD bashers might just want to back off and scratch it a bit before making such categorical broad sweeping statements. THE reason alternatives to Linux have been able to persist is that not EVERYONE wants Linux. Indeed, the more advanced/seasoned the person seems to be the greater the probability that they will value/utilize a Linux alternative precisely because it is NOT hampered by Linux's shortcomings. Following/emulating Linux is a mistake. Sun should have learned that at least a couple years earlier and they may not have become the financial disaster that led to the current Oracle mess. Instead, OI should actively strive to DIFFERENTIATE itself from Linux, lest it become relegated to yet another fanboy distro of the month. Those of you who want/need Linux please, by all means, go use Linux!!! But please, please, please stop lobbying to turn OI into Linux. A little reminder for those who measure success by numbers: the largest Unix-like OS is most likely _not_ Linux, it's OS X. Or rather, it was until iOS (the variant for the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch/AppleTV) presumably passed it. (although if one counts Android under the Linux column, things do start to look rather complicated) _Part_ of what's under the hood on OS X and iOS comes from FreeBSD. There's also Mach, and some BSD and GNU utilities; as well as an entirely proprietary GUI. That falls well short of a purely open-source ideal, although much other than the GUI, GUI apps, and some of the device drivers is open source - for practical, rather than ideological reasons. Numbers depend on _solving_a_problem_ for the most people; and leaving them with the perception that what you offer solves one or more problems better, or more cheaply, than anything else. Hand-holding and outreach may be part of that. It doesn't require everyone on board to make that happen. Different people will be best served by different modes of communication. Some folks will want to be just a few comfortable interactions away from short-term gratification. Others will want to be able to wade through a lot of information or discussion as quickly as possible. Remember the flip side of a one-size-fits-all solution: …and in the darkness bind them. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 4:27 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 13:12 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 3:22 AM, Kees Nuyt wrote: On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 02:51:13 -0400, Richard wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: [snip] I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1 A mailing list is fine too, and the mailing list archives will take care of it being searchable. I don't mind if the lists are bridged to a webforum. A server that does not exchange info with other NNTP servers, and requires a login to post, seems like it would work well enough. Sounds like subscription, that's what mailing lists are for ;) But news readers have tools that are better suited to following conversations of interest (or excluding those not of interest) in very large volumes. Mail can be overwhelming at a few hundred a day, but one can keep up with Usenet on the level of thousands of posts a day (if one uses the tools to be selective, and reads fast). NNTP and SMTP are really quite similar, except news is always retrieved from one or potentially a network of servers, while SMTP may be either delivered or retrieved as the last step. Both can handle attachments, and both can have clients that are might lighter weight than web browsers (and servers much less prone to problems than some used with web forums). Light and fast are helpful when trying to keep up with a large volume. One can of course continue to use mailing lists, but to set them up in such a way that they can be made available to NNTP clients via gmane, or something similar. There's usually a lot less trouble bridging mail and news than mail and web forums, I should think; yet news (in its readers, and in the basic search functions of the server) offers some forum-like functionality that mail does not. Readers shouldn't be a problem; everyone should probably have or be able to get Seamonkey, or for those unfortunates not able to separate themselves from Windows, Outlook Express (which IIRC has a news reading capability). Not that those are the only choices, by any means. The one advantage I can see with a web forum is if there were a lot of large attachments anticipated. On a web forum, they wouldn't have to be subjected to a bandwidth-hungry encoding to pass over mail. People have of course passed around large attachments with news, but it's ugly, unless one has a reader that's specifically meant to put that back together again. +1 However, pondering for even a little bit as to why I no longer use NNTP that much I conclude that it is pull like enough such that web based forums have taken over catering to the pull niche, while SMTP has remained steadfast for those preferring push approaches. If one has a deadline or timeline on a collective activity, push keeps people engaged. Otherwise, doesn't pull let them manage their own time better? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello Ken Gunderson and List, On Oktober, 10 2011, 22:25 Ken Gunderson wrote in [1]: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 21:21 +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: Hello Любомир Григоров and List, On Oktober, 10 2011, 18:59 Любомир Григоров wrote in [1]: I'll take a couple of people with a clue over a hundred _looking_ for a clue any day. It will be just as I said earlier - the userland will consist of the devs and a bunch of fanboys, no one will know the OS and will just view it as another one. This whole conversation and all the emails in it just proves OI is not ready to be a real OS. Maybe in 10 years after it matures I will give it another go. Like things stand, it's headed in the OpenBSD path. +1 Sad but true. This is such BULLSHIT!!! Would OI be as successful as OpenBSD. Or FreeBSD!! So you *BSD bashers might just want to back off and scratch it a bit before making such categorical broad sweeping statements. I am not a BSB basher nor a Linux basher. THE reason alternatives to Linux have been able to persist is that not EVERYONE wants Linux. Indeed, the more advanced/seasoned the person seems to be the greater the probability that they will value/utilize a Linux alternative precisely because it is NOT hampered by Linux's shortcomings. Following/emulating Linux is a mistake. Sun should have learned that at least a couple years earlier and they may not have become the financial disaster that led to the current Oracle mess. Instead, OI should actively strive to DIFFERENTIATE itself from Linux, lest it become relegated to yet another fanboy distro of the month. Those of you who want/need Linux please, by all means, go use Linux!!! But please, please, please stop lobbying to turn OI into Linux. I want that OI becomes a good supported and a populate OS. Peace-- Yes -- Best Regards Alexander Oktober, 10 2011 [1] mid:1318278307.2287.7.ca...@allakaket.teamcool.net ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
A couple of thoughts: OSX is a dreadful wrong example. If you polled 1 million Mac users and asked them 'what OS runs under the hood?', my guess is 95% would have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, throwing vague statements out about the 'shortcomings of linux' is at best non-helpful, and at worst discredits you. I am a Software Engineer, and it irks me to no end to have to retain N different tool/command sets in my memory for no good reason. Whether you like it or not, Linux (and to a lesser extent, the various BSD dialects) are what most folks know and are comfortable with. Presenting them with yet another flavor of Unix, with a command/tool set that is too distant is going to result in the person walking away and settling for redhat/ubuntu/debian or whatever. I kind of hinted at this in an earlier post - if I didn't have to use OI or some flavor of OS to get ZFS for my SAN, I would have gone elsewhere like a shot. BSD and Linux are pretty close when most of the commands are considered - OS is much less so, and that is what is going to relegate it to a niche system unless something changes. And no, I'm not an opposing fanboy or basher, just a realist... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 17:32 -0400, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: A couple of thoughts: OSX is a dreadful wrong example. If you polled 1 million Mac users and asked them 'what OS runs under the hood?', my guess is 95% would have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, throwing vague statements out about the 'shortcomings of linux' is at best non-helpful, and at worst discredits you. I am a Software Engineer, and it irks me to no end to have to retain N different tool/command sets in my memory for no good reason. Whether you like it or not, Linux (and to a lesser extent, the various BSD dialects) are what most folks know and are comfortable with. Presenting them with yet another flavor of Unix, with a command/tool set that is too distant is going to result in the person walking away and settling for redhat/ubuntu/debian or whatever. I kind of hinted at this in an earlier post - if I didn't have to use OI or some flavor of OS to get ZFS for my SAN, I would have gone elsewhere like a shot. BSD and Linux are pretty close when most of the commands are considered - OS is much less so, and that is what is going to relegate it to a niche system unless something changes. And no, I'm not an opposing fanboy or basher, just a realist... But... OI DOES have ZFS. And Linux effectively does not. Hence viva la' difference because had OI copied Linux it would not either. My comment was not directed at anyone in particular, but more broadly scoped to include various posts that seem to keep holding up Linux like it's the holy grail. I don't need another Linux option. I do have an interest/need in something better than Linux, e.g. zfs, dtrace, and other enterprise grade features that Linux presently lacks. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: A couple of thoughts: OSX is a dreadful wrong example. If you polled 1 million Mac users and asked them 'what OS runs under the hood?', my guess is 95% would have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, throwing vague statements out about the 'shortcomings of linux' is at best non-helpful, and at worst discredits you. I am a Software Engineer, and it irks me to no end to have to retain N different tool/command sets in my memory for no good reason. Whether you like it or not, Linux (and to a lesser extent, the various BSD dialects) are what most folks know and are comfortable with. Presenting them with yet another flavor of Unix, with a command/tool set that is too distant is going to result in the person walking away and settling for redhat/ubuntu/debian or whatever. I kind of hinted at this in an earlier post - if I didn't have to use OI or some flavor of OS to get ZFS for my SAN, I would have gone elsewhere like a shot. BSD and Linux are pretty close when most of the commands are considered - OS is much less so, and that is what is going to relegate it to a niche system unless something changes. And no, I'm not an opposing fanboy or basher, just a realist… Does it _matter_ if users know what runs under the hood? OS X is pretty good, but the Solaris kernel is more reliable. If other things are somewhere near comparable, I might not care if I could spout the lineage of the kernel as long as the OS was reliable and somewhere near competitive on features or whatever. Any argument like that against Solaris would only hold if one wanted to run it on hardware obtained by dumpster-diving. On a reasonable subset of modern hardware, it's simply likely to cause less mystery headaches than most alternatives (arguably including Linux). On a properly configured server or appliance or VM, there's no comparison. I've seen Solaris and Linux VMs, no hardware issues there, but between OOM killers and other non-deterministic behavior on Linux (like even keeping ntpd alive!), there's no comparison. The toolset has been converging, with a number of commands picking up those GNU options that weren't inconsistent with what was already present; and the GNU versions can trivially be made available somewhere other than /usr/bin. All it takes is an account creation tool that makes it easy to set up a new account with the appropriate PATH, and maybe a defaults file for that tool so that a site can make their own choice of what the default should be, leaving individual users the option to differ, if they wish to bear the burden of perhaps less familiarity by the local help desk. And that could be pushed back one step further, making the setting of those defaults an installation-time option, something perhaps as simple as installing an optional package that provides some additional customization. Some of the GNU tools are better (gawk vs nawk is my usual example); some are worse (get Jeorg Schilling to tell you how much worse GNU tar is). Choosing the GNU tools for familiarity's sake _might_ (although I don't agree) be a valid argument if it had to be either-or. But it's not hard to make it both-and…probably easier than arguing about it. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 17:49 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: A couple of thoughts: OSX is a dreadful wrong example. If you polled 1 million Mac users and asked them 'what OS runs under the hood?', my guess is 95% would have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, throwing vague statements out about the 'shortcomings of linux' is at best non-helpful, and at worst discredits you. I am a Software Engineer, and it irks me to no end to have to retain N different tool/command sets in my memory for no good reason. Whether you like it or not, Linux (and to a lesser extent, the various BSD dialects) are what most folks know and are comfortable with. Presenting them with yet another flavor of Unix, with a command/tool set that is too distant is going to result in the person walking away and settling for redhat/ubuntu/debian or whatever. I kind of hinted at this in an earlier post - if I didn't have to use OI or some flavor of OS to get ZFS for my SAN, I would have gone elsewhere like a shot. BSD and Linux are pretty close when most of the commands are considered - OS is much less so, and that is what is going to relegate it to a niche system unless something changes. And no, I'm not an opposing fanboy or basher, just a realist… Does it _matter_ if users know what runs under the hood? OS X is pretty good, but the Solaris kernel is more reliable. If other things are somewhere near comparable, I might not care if I could spout the lineage of the kernel as long as the OS was reliable and somewhere near competitive on features or whatever. Any argument like that against Solaris would only hold if one wanted to run it on hardware obtained by dumpster-diving. On a reasonable subset of modern hardware, it's simply likely to cause less mystery headaches than most alternatives (arguably including Linux). On a properly configured server or appliance or VM, there's no comparison. I've seen Solaris and Linux VMs, no hardware issues there, but between OOM killers and other non-deterministic behavior on Linux (like even keeping ntpd alive!), there's no comparison. The toolset has been converging, with a number of commands picking up those GNU options that weren't inconsistent with what was already present; and the GNU versions can trivially be made available somewhere other than /usr/bin. All it takes is an account creation tool that makes it easy to set up a new account with the appropriate PATH, and maybe a defaults file for that tool so that a site can make their own choice of what the default should be, leaving individual users the option to differ, if they wish to bear the burden of perhaps less familiarity by the local help desk. And that could be pushed back one step further, making the setting of those defaults an installation-time option, something perhaps as simple as installing an optional package that provides some additional customization. Some of the GNU tools are better (gawk vs nawk is my usual example); some are worse (get Jeorg Schilling to tell you how much worse GNU tar is). Choosing the GNU tools for familiarity's sake _might_ (although I don't agree) be a valid argument if it had to be either-or. But it's not hard to make it both-and…probably easier than arguing about it. Right. My issue is not with incorporating things from Gnu/Linux based on technical criteria that have been evaluated and discussed. Nor anti Linux. I'm on a Debian workstation now. My issue is with the we should do this so we can be more like Linux (and I think by implied flawed extension that this would make OI attractive to legions of Linux converts) when there's no technically based reason to do so. This is OI. Let's be OI and build the best mouse trap on the planet. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
-Original Message- From: Ken Gunderson [mailto:kgund...@teamcool.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 5:44 PM To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 17:32 -0400, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: A couple of thoughts: OSX is a dreadful wrong example. If you polled 1 million Mac users and asked them 'what OS runs under the hood?', my guess is 95% would have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, throwing vague statements out about the 'shortcomings of linux' is at best non-helpful, and at worst discredits you. I am a Software Engineer, and it irks me to no end to have to retain N different tool/command sets in my memory for no good reason. Whether you like it or not, Linux (and to a lesser extent, the various BSD dialects) are what most folks know and are comfortable with. Presenting them with yet another flavor of Unix, with a command/tool set that is too distant is going to result in the person walking away and settling for redhat/ubuntu/debian or whatever. I kind of hinted at this in an earlier post - if I didn't have to use OI or some flavor of OS to get ZFS for my SAN, I would have gone elsewhere like a shot. BSD and Linux are pretty close when most of the commands are considered - OS is much less so, and that is what is going to relegate it to a niche system unless something changes. And no, I'm not an opposing fanboy or basher, just a realist... But... OI DOES have ZFS. And Linux effectively does not. Hence viva la' difference because had OI copied Linux it would not either. *** Sigh. This was 1000% of my point. OS command/tools are different enough from BSD/Linux that I'm really not interested in learning a whole new way of doing things, but I've had little choice due to the ZFS issues. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
And this continues to miss the point. This is what is so frustrating to me (going back years...) Techies like you guys make a decision based on the technical merits, but 95% of the manager/sysadmin types are going to look at the learning curve (and don't bother telling me it doesn't exist or is trivial - maybe in your book, not in theirs), and ask why on earth do we want to do X when our admins will have to learn all kinds of new crap??? FWIW, if zfsguru was more stable and didn't have a single dev, I would have switched to it in a heartbeat. I know my way around most linuxes (and even freebsd) in my sleep, but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier (or an alternative, to put an entry in the crontab with '@reboot', oh wait, the opensolaris cron doesn't support that feature...) And yes, I know none of these things are killers in themselves, it's the death of a thousand cuts. Folks, I *want* opensolaris in some flavor to prosper, but when I hear evangelists complaining about why should we make this MORE like linux, etc... The answer SO PEOPLE WILL USE IT?! Sorry, I'm tired and out of sorts, and I saw freebsd lose this battle to linux years ago with the same short-sighted attitude and now it's happening again with OS (btw, does anyone have a comment about nexenta providing debian userland tools like apt?) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Oh almost forgot. No, it doesn't matter what runs under the hood when you are dealing with a mass market GUI that isn't the point. The point is that someone mentioned that OSX uses *BSD under the hood like somehow that has ANYTHING to do with getting more people away from linux... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Sorry, but i don't really see the point. Of course OS is different to Linux or BSD, but there are also differences between them. If you change from Windows or even Mac OS to a posix-like system the difference might be the largest, but there are a lot of people who use Linux on their notebooks or PCs. If I want to run a server on OpenIndiana, because I want to use ZFS and Zones, because they fit my needs, I only want a source, where I find the information, how to partition the system, how to build a pool, how to install a postgresql-server or something like that. I think if you have a good documentation and/or wiki and a possibility to communicate to the experts in a not to complicated way, the users will use OI if it fits their needs. Because OI might also not have the same use-cases than ubuntu, a newsgroup-server or a maillinglist might be fine. Tobias Am 10.10.2011 23:32, schrieb Dan Swartzendruber: A couple of thoughts: OSX is a dreadful wrong example. If you polled 1 million Mac users and asked them 'what OS runs under the hood?', my guess is 95% would have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, throwing vague statements out about the 'shortcomings of linux' is at best non-helpful, and at worst discredits you. I am a Software Engineer, and it irks me to no end to have to retain N different tool/command sets in my memory for no good reason. Whether you like it or not, Linux (and to a lesser extent, the various BSD dialects) are what most folks know and are comfortable with. Presenting them with yet another flavor of Unix, with a command/tool set that is too distant is going to result in the person walking away and settling for redhat/ubuntu/debian or whatever. I kind of hinted at this in an earlier post - if I didn't have to use OI or some flavor of OS to get ZFS for my SAN, I would have gone elsewhere like a shot. BSD and Linux are pretty close when most of the commands are considered - OS is much less so, and that is what is going to relegate it to a niche system unless something changes. And no, I'm not an opposing fanboy or basher, just a realist... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Jabber: b...@jabber.ccc.de ICQ:279837014 Handy: 0178-5545505 Skype: grund-rauschen ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Tobias Famulla wrote: If you change from Windows or even Mac OS to a posix-like system …. Windows and Mac OS both have POSIX, though one could argue as to how useful Windows’s is. OS X is actually UNIX certified. Phil ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 7:22 PM, Robar Philip wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Tobias Famulla wrote: If you change from Windows or even Mac OS to a posix-like system …. Windows and Mac OS both have POSIX, though one could argue as to how useful Windows’s is. OS X is actually UNIX certified. The latter missing I think some optional subsets. One difference I find annoying about Windows is how shares are handled differently on the client: with them only visible per-session. If I have a drive mapped to a server on the graphic session, and log in again via telnet, it's not visible in that session. More, mappings are different per-user (and have to be since I think authentication is only passed at the mapping time, or else becomes fixed then). This means everyone has a different view of the total set of filesystems - and drive letters rather than true mounts into a single tree encourage that. While there are cases where that might be useful, mostly it's a problem for network shares and local storage to behave differently in that regard. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Oh almost forgot. No, it doesn't matter what runs under the hood when you are dealing with a mass market GUI that isn't the point. The point is that someone mentioned that OSX uses *BSD under the hood like somehow that has ANYTHING to do with getting more people away from linux… Even a mass market GUI is more attractive for even an newbie user to use if it doesn't flake out as much because something better is underneath. However that doesn't preclude doing something interesting at the GUI level. I wonder what it would be like to use GNUstep on top of Solaris? :-) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
I think I've gotten frustrated enough at trying to make the same point N times that I'm done here. One last time: the point was that someone brought up OSX as an example of a widely deployed platform using a non-linux (as I recall the point) OS. My rebuttal was that 95% or whatever of the users of OSX have no clue that BSD or linux or OS/360 is the underlying OS, so it was a bad example. I honestly don't understand why this has been such a difficult point for people to understand. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
-Original Message- From: Richard L. Hamilton [mailto:rlha...@smart.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 7:49 PM To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Oh almost forgot. No, it doesn't matter what runs under the hood when you are dealing with a mass market GUI that isn't the point. The point is that someone mentioned that OSX uses *BSD under the hood like somehow that has ANYTHING to do with getting more people away from linux. Even a mass market GUI is more attractive for even an newbie user to use if it doesn't flake out as much because something better is underneath. *** Quite true, but it could have, for example, a stripped down flavor of linux or plan9 or whatever... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 18:53 -0400, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: And this continues to miss the point. This is what is so frustrating to me (going back years...) Techies like you guys make a decision based on the technical merits, but 95% of the manager/sysadmin types are going to look at the learning curve (and don't bother telling me it doesn't exist or is trivial - maybe in your book, not in theirs), and ask why on earth do we want to do X when our admins will have to learn all kinds of new crap??? FWIW, if zfsguru was more stable and didn't have a single dev, I would have switched to it in a heartbeat. I know my way around most linuxes (and even freebsd) in my sleep, but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier (or an alternative, to put an entry in the crontab with '@reboot', oh wait, the opensolaris cron doesn't support that feature...) And yes, I know none of these things are killers in themselves, it's the death of a thousand cuts. Folks, I *want* opensolaris in some flavor to prosper, but when I hear evangelists complaining about why should we make this MORE like linux, etc... The answer SO PEOPLE WILL USE IT?! Sorry, I'm tired and out of sorts, and I saw freebsd lose this battle to linux years ago with the same short-sighted attitude and now it's happening again with OS (btw, does anyone have a comment about nexenta providing debian userland tools like apt?) FreeBSD loosing any battle is debatable. I do feel compelled to point out, however, that Linus himself has said that if not for the legal battle that was waging between att and uc regents at the time, he would have just used bsd. Linux later experienced, and survived, some legal wrangling of its own. Plenty of people use FreeBSD. And OpenBSD. Often w/o knowing as as they silently pass/filter packets, server up smtp, http, etc. That these desktop users are not running these platforms on their peecee's does mean that they don't still use them extensively as they move about the Internet. And I guess it is equally frustrating and exasperating that some continue to just not get this. Peace :_) -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 05:44 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: My comment was not directed at anyone in particular, but more broadly scoped to include various posts that seem to keep holding up Linux like it's the holy grail. I don't need another Linux option. I do have an interest/need in something better than Linux, e.g. zfs, dtrace, and other enterprise grade features that Linux presently lacks. Hi Linux basher. BTW, I don't remember anybody holding up Linux like it's the holy grail. They were holding Ubuntu up like it's the holy grail. FYI, there are plenty of Linux sysadmins that despise Ubuntu just as much as you despise Linux. ZFS an 'enterprise grade' feature now is it? So what are you going to do when Oracle pushes out btrfs for Linux with the self same functionality that ZFS has and maybe more? Jump ship? The rumour mills have this story about Oracle doing a dtrace for Linux. Sounds fun? You have missed the point of those posters 'holding up Ubuntu like it is the holy grail'. They would like to see OpenIndiana get more exposure and hopefully attract the attention of more developers to keep it from dying. They have good intentions. Only problem is that most people who do use OpenIndiana, including idiots like me (thanks Garrett), use it for server purposes and not general desktop use like Ubuntu. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:53 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: And this continues to miss the point. This is what is so frustrating to me (going back years...) Techies like you guys make a decision based on the technical merits, but 95% of the manager/sysadmin types are going to look at the learning curve (and don't bother telling me it doesn't exist or is trivial - maybe in your book, not in theirs), and ask why on earth do we want to do X when our admins will have to learn all kinds of new crap??? FWIW, if zfsguru was more stable and didn't have a single dev, I would have switched to it in a heartbeat. I know my way around most linuxes (and even freebsd) in my sleep, but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier (or an alternative, to put an entry in the crontab with '@reboot', oh wait, the opensolaris cron doesn't support that feature...) And yes, I know none of these things are killers in themselves, it's the death of a thousand cuts. Folks, I *want* opensolaris in some flavor to prosper, but when I hear evangelists complaining about why should we make this MORE like linux, etc... The answer SO PEOPLE WILL USE IT?! Sorry, I'm tired and out of sorts, and I saw freebsd lose this battle to linux years ago with the same short-sighted attitude and now it's happening again with OS (btw, does anyone have a comment about nexenta providing debian userland tools like apt?) I'm interested in arrangements that allow traditional Solaris and GNU tools to coexist. I'm not so interested in a pure Linux environment. I doubt that coexistence is furthered by the choice of apt packaging. One could also imagine a Nexenta branded zone under a more conventional Solaris environment. But that doesn't address the differences between administrative tools. I'm not opposed to compromise. But I have zero use for an environment that is exclusively to the advantage of those familiar with Linux. I've been using Solaris since 2.3 (late 1993 - 2.x x3 weren't worth using, except for porting or familiarization). Linux was barely around then, and not significant. The only reason that it caught on is that it was free (to use or modify, but real support always costs), and a bit more accessible than the BSDs were at the time. I have no more wish to conform to what's familiar to you than you do to conform to what's familiar to me. Think of ways to provide co-existence or alternatives built on the same core, and I'm fine with that; I've tossed out a few ideas along those lines. Keep making the case for having it entirely your way, and I'll say that I for one have no use for your case or anything, even millions of new users (yuck, unwashed masses), that comes with your case. I've dialed it back a lot in this message. I don't mind people wanting things their own way, as long as their way doesn't exclude mine. They do that, and I don't handle it well at all, not with both of us on the same planet. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Richard, you continue to miss the point. This isn't about you (OS) vs me (linux). I would wager that for every opensolaris user there are at least 10 linux users. Getting them to use OS (which is better in many ways, granted), making the environment more familiar is essential, IMO. You are of course, free to disagree. Just saying, I've been through this before... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 20:26 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:53 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: And this continues to miss the point. This is what is so frustrating to me (going back years...) Techies like you guys make a decision based on the technical merits, but 95% of the manager/sysadmin types are going to look at the learning curve (and don't bother telling me it doesn't exist or is trivial - maybe in your book, not in theirs), and ask why on earth do we want to do X when our admins will have to learn all kinds of new crap??? FWIW, if zfsguru was more stable and didn't have a single dev, I would have switched to it in a heartbeat. I know my way around most linuxes (and even freebsd) in my sleep, but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier (or an alternative, to put an entry in the crontab with '@reboot', oh wait, the opensolaris cron doesn't support that feature...) And yes, I know none of these things are killers in themselves, it's the death of a thousand cuts. Folks, I *want* opensolaris in some flavor to prosper, but when I hear evangelists complaining about why should we make this MORE like linux, etc... The answer SO PEOPLE WILL USE IT?! Sorry, I'm tired and out of sorts, and I saw freebsd lose this battle to linux years ago with the same short-sighted attitude and now it's happening again with OS (btw, does anyone have a comment about nexenta providing debian userland tools like apt?) I'm interested in arrangements that allow traditional Solaris and GNU tools to coexist. I'm not so interested in a pure Linux environment. I doubt that coexistence is furthered by the choice of apt packaging. One could also imagine a Nexenta branded zone under a more conventional Solaris environment. But that doesn't address the differences between administrative tools. I'm not opposed to compromise. But I have zero use for an environment that is exclusively to the advantage of those familiar with Linux. I've been using Solaris since 2.3 (late 1993 - 2.x x3 weren't worth using, except for porting or familiarization). Linux was barely around then, and not significant. The only reason that it caught on is that it was free (to use or modify, but real support always costs), and a bit more accessible than the BSDs were at the time. I have no more wish to conform to what's familiar to you than you do to conform to what's familiar to me. Think of ways to provide co-existence or alternatives built on the same core, and I'm fine with that; I've tossed out a few ideas along those lines. Keep making the case for having it entirely your way, and I'll say that I for one have no use for your case or anything, even millions of new users (yuck, unwashed masses), that comes with your case. I've dialed it back a lot in this message. I don't mind people wanting things their own way, as long as their way doesn't exclude mine. They do that, and I don't handle it well at all, not with both of us on the same planet. This, I think, is pretty well said. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 07:51 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: I think I've gotten frustrated enough at trying to make the same point N times that I'm done here. One last time: the point was that someone brought up OSX as an example of a widely deployed platform using a non-linux (as I recall the point) OS. My rebuttal was that 95% or whatever of the users of OSX have no clue that BSD or linux or OS/360 is the underlying OS, so it was a bad example. I honestly don't understand why this has been such a difficult point for people to understand. Dan, OpenIndiana is not quite ready for the desktop. Where it is usable, you still have to pick the right hardware (Nvidia graphics)... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Ok, I suppose most Linux users don't know that they're using Linux? Maybe that's true for Android, not for anything else. So I don't see the point of your point. Yes, gramma and her email-and-surf probably doesn't give a hoot _what_ she's using, as long as it's cheap (so she doesn't have to eat cat food), easy (so she doesn't have to bug the grandkids to help), and it works. I got that. Big deal. Me, I want gramma to grow a pair or eat cat food. But then I'm spoiled, the only relative I have to deal with would have the plug pulled on them before they'd refuse to learn something new. Anyone to whom Linux familiarity is an issue, probably knows what they're using. So I still don't see your point. Mine was that something easy to use could be based in part on BSD for all anyone cared. Heck, maybe we're both making the same point from opposite sides. On Oct 10, 2011, at 7:51 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: I think I've gotten frustrated enough at trying to make the same point N times that I'm done here. One last time: the point was that someone brought up OSX as an example of a widely deployed platform using a non-linux (as I recall the point) OS. My rebuttal was that 95% or whatever of the users of OSX have no clue that BSD or linux or OS/360 is the underlying OS, so it was a bad example. I honestly don't understand why this has been such a difficult point for people to understand. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Quite true. At this point, though, the admin space is the issue. -Original Message- From: Christopher Chan [mailto:christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:32 PM To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 07:51 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: I think I've gotten frustrated enough at trying to make the same point N times that I'm done here. One last time: the point was that someone brought up OSX as an example of a widely deployed platform using a non-linux (as I recall the point) OS. My rebuttal was that 95% or whatever of the users of OSX have no clue that BSD or linux or OS/360 is the underlying OS, so it was a bad example. I honestly don't understand why this has been such a difficult point for people to understand. Dan, OpenIndiana is not quite ready for the desktop. Where it is usable, you still have to pick the right hardware (Nvidia graphics)... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Well, I give up. You are not stupid, so I can only assume we have a disconnect here. Ciao... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: -Original Message- From: Richard L. Hamilton [mailto:rlha...@smart.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 7:49 PM To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Oh almost forgot. No, it doesn't matter what runs under the hood when you are dealing with a mass market GUI that isn't the point. The point is that someone mentioned that OSX uses *BSD under the hood like somehow that has ANYTHING to do with getting more people away from linux. Even a mass market GUI is more attractive for even an newbie user to use if it doesn't flake out as much because something better is underneath. *** Quite true, but it could have, for example, a stripped down flavor of linux or plan9 or whatever... IIRC, OS X almost had BeOS underneath instead…that would've been…interesting. Better? Worse? Who knows… ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 08:29 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Richard, you continue to miss the point. This isn't about you (OS) vs me (linux). I would wager that for every opensolaris user there are at least 10 linux users. Getting them to use OS (which is better in many ways, granted), making the environment more familiar is essential, IMO. You are of course, free to disagree. Just saying, I've been through this before... GNU userland is already available in a big way with Nexenta and partly available in OpenIndiana. GNU awk, GNU tar, gcc, GNU make, yada yada. But if you want to change the way things are done in /etc, please go elsewhere. Even in Linux land, things are in a big flux at the moment with /etc although certain things like network configuration are not changing but distro differ from distro in things like that. I don't see a problem with OpenIndiana differing too. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 8:08 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 18:53 -0400, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: And this continues to miss the point. This is what is so frustrating to me (going back years...) Techies like you guys make a decision based on the technical merits, but 95% of the manager/sysadmin types are going to look at the learning curve (and don't bother telling me it doesn't exist or is trivial - maybe in your book, not in theirs), and ask why on earth do we want to do X when our admins will have to learn all kinds of new crap??? FWIW, if zfsguru was more stable and didn't have a single dev, I would have switched to it in a heartbeat. I know my way around most linuxes (and even freebsd) in my sleep, but honestly, it's beyond frustrating to find out that there is no obvious way to do the /etc/rc.local thing I kvetched about earlier (or an alternative, to put an entry in the crontab with '@reboot', oh wait, the opensolaris cron doesn't support that feature...) And yes, I know none of these things are killers in themselves, it's the death of a thousand cuts. Folks, I *want* opensolaris in some flavor to prosper, but when I hear evangelists complaining about why should we make this MORE like linux, etc... The answer SO PEOPLE WILL USE IT?! Sorry, I'm tired and out of sorts, and I saw freebsd lose this battle to linux years ago with the same short-sighted attitude and now it's happening again with OS (btw, does anyone have a comment about nexenta providing debian userland tools like apt?) FreeBSD loosing any battle is debatable. I do feel compelled to point out, however, that Linus himself has said that if not for the legal battle that was waging between att and uc regents at the time, he would have just used bsd. Linux later experienced, and survived, some legal wrangling of its own. Plenty of people use FreeBSD. And OpenBSD. Often w/o knowing as as they silently pass/filter packets, server up smtp, http, etc. That these desktop users are not running these platforms on their peecee's does mean that they don't still use them extensively as they move about the Internet. And I guess it is equally frustrating and exasperating that some continue to just not get this. Peace :_) I know my Ricoh printer is based on one of the BSDs (not sure which). Mostly I like the idea of the BSD license, which can accommodate open source or proprietary with equal ease. However, Ricoh carries the notion of a black box unless you've got megabucks well past the point where it does them any good, IMO. So although I despise the whole GNU ideology thing, there are times when it seems worthwhile that it exists as an alternative, if only to whack folks with. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 08:32 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Quite true. At this point, though, the admin space is the issue. I come from a Linux background with my experience being done on Redhat Linux, Fedora, Centos and Ubuntu. I have also worked on FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I do not see a problem in the admin space. You can get various GNU tools on OpenIndiana. As for configuration files, they differ from distro to distro so you cannot even claim admin space familiarity in Linux space because there is no single admin environment. Other than that, everybody has to deal with different layouts for configuration files for the daemons in common be they apache, BIND, ntpd, nfsd. If you cannot be bothered to learn like the rest of us who came over from Linux space, then please stop bothering us. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Thank you for reminding me what arrogant asshats fanboys are. I knew better than to dredge this up but I did anyway. I will bow out now. Btw, your reading comprehension is apparently no better than the other guy's. Too bad, so sad... -Original Message- From: Christopher Chan [mailto:christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:42 PM To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 08:32 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Quite true. At this point, though, the admin space is the issue. I come from a Linux background with my experience being done on Redhat Linux, Fedora, Centos and Ubuntu. I have also worked on FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I do not see a problem in the admin space. You can get various GNU tools on OpenIndiana. As for configuration files, they differ from distro to distro so you cannot even claim admin space familiarity in Linux space because there is no single admin environment. Other than that, everybody has to deal with different layouts for configuration files for the daemons in common be they apache, BIND, ntpd, nfsd. If you cannot be bothered to learn like the rest of us who came over from Linux space, then please stop bothering us. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hi All, Please, for the sake of everybody's sanity, can people chill out and stop arguing. This thread started as someone wanting to volunteer to help the project, and it has descended into a flame fest. I'd kindly ask that people respect the rules of the mailing list and stop flaming each other. Remember this is a public forum, and when people google your name, they will find these posts; they are preserved forever. Think before hitting the send button. Regards, Alasdair ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Richard, you continue to miss the point. This isn't about you (OS) vs me (linux). I would wager that for every opensolaris user there are at least 10 linux users. Getting them to use OS (which is better in many ways, granted), making the environment more familiar is essential, IMO. You are of course, free to disagree. Just saying, I've been through this before… That assumes that there's a benefit of converting people from Linux to OS/OI. I see no benefit for OS/OI users (numbers of users rather than clue-bringers don't build a community) nor for that matter, for the Linux users, in promoting that conversion on terms that displace those already there to make room for those coming over. Unless of course you really think that OS/OI is well short of the minimum viable number. I don't happen to think that's the case, but I'll admit I'm biased towards smaller numbers anyway, since the majority is nothing to brag about (look at a bell curve sometime). I'd go so far as to say why not take some existing migration guide and flesh it out. Or improve coexistence, if a migration guide would impose too much of a burden on the newcomers. Or whatever. But don't expect those already here to take in the shorts for the sake of attracting newcomers. It's exactly like the border debate. My view is that those here should not have to accommodate themselves to new arrivals. Let them assimilate or go back. We may need some immigrants…on _our_ terms, but if we need them on _their_ terms, we're already dead as a distinct community. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On 10/11/11 01:59 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Alasdair, thank you. I apologize for my intemperate language. The frustration at people's apparent inability to get the point I was trying to make doesn't justify it. The message was to everyone who contributed to the thread going way way off topic. The topic was Help with website and somehow we got onto X vs Y. Let's keep it focused on the former and not the latter. The mission statement behind OI is to make it really good OS that's easy to use for newcomers whilst not sacrificing quality or our Solaris heritage. Nobody is obliged to use OI, nor is OI ideologically better or worse than any other OS. It occupies a unique space in the unixsphere. That's the end of the discussion. If you want to discuss things further, create a new thread for it. Don't hijack existing threads. That's standard mailing list etiquette. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Christopher Chan wrote: On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 08:32 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Quite true. At this point, though, the admin space is the issue. I come from a Linux background with my experience being done on Redhat Linux, Fedora, Centos and Ubuntu. I have also worked on FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I do not see a problem in the admin space. You can get various GNU tools on OpenIndiana. And it's been that way for a very long time. I remember one of my early tasks was to get gnu tools on solaris (2.4? 2.5?) server where it was then nfs exported to all the other servers and available somewhere like /usr/local (maybe it was /usr/local/gnu?). This was right as it was released and sunfreeware didn't yet have all the stuff readily available for download. I believe this was 97 or 98 time frame. I ended building packages for just about all the gnu (and several non-gnu, but common) tools so they were proper solaris packages to boot. The end result, all of our servers had the gnu tools. Which were default depended on your path. I think the perceived problem in the admin space depends on the depth of experience of the admin too. Admins that only know one (or maybe, MAYBE 2) linux distribution(s) become so entrenched in their distro of choice they have a hard time seeing any other options (including other Linux options). The more well rounded admins don't have such a problem. I can tell you of one friend that is a well rounded Linux guy and his impression of OpenSolaris and OpenIndiana: Linux in 95. His personal beef was with the extremely limited hardware support. He spent quite a bit of time trying to get just the right sata card and chipset and still had problems with getting things working that he finally gave up. This was less than a year ago too. The biggest issues with getting Linux or others to check out and use OI isn't email vs. forums, gnu or not user space tools, etc., it's driver support and documentation, and often the attitude they seem to frequently get when they come looking for help. Greg ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Gregory, I can second that. I have a friend who is very experienced in Linux and BSD and I was mentioning at dinner how I was using a SAN appliance that was based on ZFS, and started extolling its virtues. He asked me (totally seriously) ZFS is still around? I thought all that stuff died when Oracle bought Sun? This is the barrier we have to deal with. Somehow because I grumbled about commands being somewhat different, I got branded as one of them, when my original point was that we need to get people using OI (or any other flavor for that matter), or it will end up a fringe system, and ultimately die. The technical merits don't matter in a lot of ways, when perception comes into it (for you old fogies, think Betamax vs VHS - think which was the better implementation, and which one ended up winning the marketing battle...) I've had this same fight some years back before linux had plug and play desktop support - I tried to use some random distro and was having incredible hassles getting X to work right. I was on some forum or other, and people were telling me what juju I had to perform on various config files, and when I made the innocent remark that with windows, all I have to do is boot it, and it comes up with a usable desktop!, and was flamed into the next county by the residents of that forum. I really like ZFS, and like I said, that was my only motivation in getting involved in OI (I have enough stuff on my plate without learning yet another flavor of Unix, but one even farther away than Linux variations or even *BSD). That said, I've had no real choice if I want ZFS, so I'm learning the ropes. I will say that the previous exchange I had here about the absense of /etc/rc.local was a perfect example (albeit a minor one) of the point I was thinking of. Yes, in pretty much any of the flavors of Unix using the /etc/init.d script system, you can get this to work. Every Linux distro I've used in the last N years provides the /etc/rc.local method for those corner cases that don't go anywhere else, yet not one person here said yeah, you know, that IS a useful thing to have, maybe we should consider it. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 9:14 PM, Gregory Youngblood wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Christopher Chan wrote: On Tuesday, October 11, 2011 08:32 AM, Dan Swartzendruber wrote: Quite true. At this point, though, the admin space is the issue. I come from a Linux background with my experience being done on Redhat Linux, Fedora, Centos and Ubuntu. I have also worked on FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I do not see a problem in the admin space. You can get various GNU tools on OpenIndiana. And it's been that way for a very long time. I remember one of my early tasks was to get gnu tools on solaris (2.4? 2.5?) server where it was then nfs exported to all the other servers and available somewhere like /usr/local (maybe it was /usr/local/gnu?). This was right as it was released and sunfreeware didn't yet have all the stuff readily available for download. I believe this was 97 or 98 time frame. I ended building packages for just about all the gnu (and several non-gnu, but common) tools so they were proper solaris packages to boot. The end result, all of our servers had the gnu tools. Which were default depended on your path. I think the perceived problem in the admin space depends on the depth of experience of the admin too. Admins that only know one (or maybe, MAYBE 2) linux distribution(s) become so entrenched in their distro of choice they have a hard time seeing any other options (including other Linux options). The more well rounded admins don't have such a problem. I can tell you of one friend that is a well rounded Linux guy and his impression of OpenSolaris and OpenIndiana: Linux in 95. His personal beef was with the extremely limited hardware support. He spent quite a bit of time trying to get just the right sata card and chipset and still had problems with getting things working that he finally gave up. This was less than a year ago too. The biggest issues with getting Linux or others to check out and use OI isn't email vs. forums, gnu or not user space tools, etc., it's driver support and documentation, and often the attitude they seem to frequently get when they come looking for help. Hardware? I think the community could work on that. BSD license is compatible, so no issue there; and some types of drivers will port from BSD without too huge a headache (there being more similarities than with Linux, from which porting drivers would be harder even if there were no license incompatibility). A courtesy would be to keep BSD derived code under BSD license…maybe even to BSD license new community developed drivers, which might build a more congenial relationship with that crowd (since they could use them with less hassle than if a CDDL license were used, not that that would always be a problem for them). Documentation? Ok, docs.sun.com is gone, and the new Oracle site sux, but there is more documentation on the Solaris lineage than most people will ever get around to reading. Now, perhaps it's not arranged ideally for ease of use, that's a case that could be made. Some introductory material and a page of links could be overlaid on it to make it more accessible. Attitude? A questioner that's humble and willing to learn shouldn't get an attitude; hopefully they won't. One that has an entitlement mentality will perhaps not be so fortunate. If they have questions and I have answers, I've got something they want - they need me more than I need them. That's just a fact. If they're following the Usenet tradition (don't expect that your failure to read the FAQ is someone else's problem), they're entitled to a presumption of courtesy. Otherwise, well, I'm not paid for customer service in the usual sense, and there's a reason for that - I'd starve. The customer is frequently _wrong_, and if I'd say it behind their back, I'd say it to their face, too. They may not like that, but at least they know that I'm not feeding them a line. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hi All, Please, for the sake of everybody's sanity, can people chill out and stop arguing. This thread started as someone wanting to volunteer to help the project, and it has descended into a flame fest. I'd kindly ask that people respect the rules of the mailing list and stop flaming each other. Remember this is a public forum, and when people google your name, they will find these posts; they are preserved forever. Think before hitting the send button. It's been mildly amusing (and annoying at the same time) reading these exchanges that have very little to do with the reason for starting this thread. I only volunteered to help, based on this: The current website needs to be better organized and some content directed at end-users, some content could be taken from the wiki. The wiki needs to be restructured and outdated pages need to be removed or updated. That quote, by the way, came from http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Getting+Involved, under Website and Wiki. So, even the person who wrote that saw a need to target end-users, which is why I volunteered to set up something that will appeal more to end-users. But the thread has devolved to this. The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 9:32 PM, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, Please, for the sake of everybody's sanity, can people chill out and stop arguing. This thread started as someone wanting to volunteer to help the project, and it has descended into a flame fest. I'd kindly ask that people respect the rules of the mailing list and stop flaming each other. Remember this is a public forum, and when people google your name, they will find these posts; they are preserved forever. Think before hitting the send button. It's been mildly amusing (and annoying at the same time) reading these exchanges that have very little to do with the reason for starting this thread. I only volunteered to help, based on this: The current website needs to be better organized and some content directed at end-users, some content could be taken from the wiki. The wiki needs to be restructured and outdated pages need to be removed or updated. That quote, by the way, came from http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Getting+Involved, under Website and Wiki. So, even the person who wrote that saw a need to target end-users, which is why I volunteered to set up something that will appeal more to end-users. But the thread has devolved to this. The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. Well, if you want an _on_topic_ reply, sheesh, that's easy. Look? A little blocky, like old Athena Widgets; but fine for a prototype, no sense knocking yourself out on that stuff yet. Functionality? Looks fine at a quick glance, haven't actually tried to post. (Does it handle attachments as well as images?) Premise? Entirely reasonable, IMO. Voting? Mixed - I've seen that turn into popularity contests, or into something that favored style over substance in postings. If it were not too difficult, I'd start out without that feature, and enable it on request later…or start with it, but be prepared to _disable_ it if that's how things went. Does it have features that keep track of what logged-in users have read, and make it easy to ignore already-read messages unless they're needed for context? That speeds reading when one is already keeping up with a large volume. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:32 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, [snip] The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -1 -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On 10/10/11 07:16 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:32 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, [snip] The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -1 That's not helpful, without giving any reason why. You're not going to be forced to use it, so why deprive others who would of the opportunity to do so? If you asked a bunch of non-OpenSolaris/OpenIndiana users on whether the OI project should continue, and they all voted -1, would you want people to quit working on it? -- -Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:27 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/10/11 07:16 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:32 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, [snip] The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -1 That's not helpful, without giving any reason why. You're not going to be forced to use it, so why deprive others who would of the opportunity to do so? If you asked a bunch of non-OpenSolaris/OpenIndiana users on whether the OI project should continue, and they all voted -1, would you want people to quit working on it? I am referring to Vanilla forum package. So not to deprive anyone of anything. If OI wants to roll out a forum, I would look at other alternatives, the specifics of wh/I did not want to hijack OP's solicitation for feedback on vanilla demo to elaborate upon, lest this deteriorate further. The way to go about it, imho, is to survey the landscape and generate a short list. I don't think Vanilla should be on that list and have commented as to some of the reasons why elsewhere. But I think that's a topic for another thread. Peace :) -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 10:38 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:27 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/10/11 07:16 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:32 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, [snip] The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -1 That's not helpful, without giving any reason why. You're not going to be forced to use it, so why deprive others who would of the opportunity to do so? If you asked a bunch of non-OpenSolaris/OpenIndiana users on whether the OI project should continue, and they all voted -1, would you want people to quit working on it? I am referring to Vanilla forum package. So not to deprive anyone of anything. If OI wants to roll out a forum, I would look at other alternatives, the specifics of wh/I did not want to hijack OP's solicitation for feedback on vanilla demo to elaborate upon, lest this deteriorate further. The way to go about it, imho, is to survey the landscape and generate a short list. I don't think Vanilla should be on that list and have commented as to some of the reasons why elsewhere. But I think that's a topic for another thread. Peace :) -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson If you think it preferable to compare various options first, there's a site http://www.forummatrix.org/ that seems to compare a bunch of forum software (including Vanilla). Be aware that it lists commercial as well as open source forum software. However, I used the Choice Wizard to choose only open source forum packages, leaving everything else unspecified; and it still gave me 48 hits. So, while I'm not familiar enough with forum software overall to judge the site (having neither surveyed nor set up any), it does at least seem to me to have information about a reasonable selection, and multiple tools for making comparisons. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On 10/10/11 07:38 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:27 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/10/11 07:16 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:32 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, [snip] The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -1 That's not helpful, without giving any reason why. You're not going to be forced to use it, so why deprive others who would of the opportunity to do so? If you asked a bunch of non-OpenSolaris/OpenIndiana users on whether the OI project should continue, and they all voted -1, would you want people to quit working on it? I am referring to Vanilla forum package. So not to deprive anyone of anything. If OI wants to roll out a forum, I would look at other alternatives, the specifics of wh/I did not want to hijack OP's solicitation for feedback on vanilla demo to elaborate upon, lest this deteriorate further. The way to go about it, imho, is to survey the landscape and generate a short list. I don't think Vanilla should be on that list and have commented as to some of the reasons why elsewhere. But I think that's a topic for another thread. Thanks - that's a much better explanation than just -1 without knowing if it's his prototype site, the forum software he chose or the forum concept in general you're disagreeing with. -- -Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 10, 2011, at 10:38 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:27 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/10/11 07:16 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 19:32 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi All, [snip] The demo is still up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. If the community does not want it, if the decision makers are against it, I can just take it down. It took less than 10 minutes to put it up, and will probably take less than that to take down. -1 That's not helpful, without giving any reason why. You're not going to be forced to use it, so why deprive others who would of the opportunity to do so? If you asked a bunch of non-OpenSolaris/OpenIndiana users on whether the OI project should continue, and they all voted -1, would you want people to quit working on it? I am referring to Vanilla forum package. So not to deprive anyone of anything. If OI wants to roll out a forum, I would look at other alternatives, the specifics of wh/I did not want to hijack OP's solicitation for feedback on vanilla demo to elaborate upon, lest this deteriorate further. The way to go about it, imho, is to survey the landscape and generate a short list. I don't think Vanilla should be on that list and have commented as to some of the reasons why elsewhere. But I think that's a topic for another thread. Peace :) -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson If you think it preferable to compare various options first, there's a site http://www.forummatrix.org/ that seems to compare a bunch of forum software (including Vanilla). Be aware that it lists commercial as well as open source forum software. However, I used the Choice Wizard to choose only open source forum packages, leaving everything else unspecified; and it still gave me 48 hits. So, while I'm not familiar enough with forum software overall to judge the site (having neither surveyed nor set up any), it does at least seem to me to have information about a reasonable selection, and multiple tools for making comparisons. Sites like that, and http://opensourcecms.com are good, but they do not prepare you for what the management interfaces are like. The thing I did, when I was evaluating forums apps for my site (http://linuxbsdos.com/forum) is to install them, that is, the best ones we all know, and play with the backend. What I found out is that phpbb, the oldest(?) of them all is a nightmare to administer. mybb, which I used for the linuxbsdos.com/forum, is even worse. I see some sites moving from phpbb and its derivatives to vBulletin, which is not free. If folks are willing to pay for a forum app, that should tell you something. Compared to the rest - and this is based on hands-on experience - Vanilla, both the frontend and backend, is a beauty. But I may be biased because I like stuff to be easy and fun to use. I'm more productive that way. For the record, the only affiliation I have with Vanilla, is the same affiliation I have with any other Free/Open Source software. I've stated this previously, but it does not hurt to repeat stuff like that. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 23:05 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: If you think it preferable to compare various options first, there's a site http://www.forummatrix.org/ that seems to compare a bunch of forum software (including Vanilla). That's interesting. If you use the following criteria: You want some Forum that is Free and Open Source and with support to attach files and which stores data in Postgres and featuring RSS/ATOM. you get these twelve candidates: DjangoBB FUDforum GroupServer JForum mvnForum mwForum MyBB NextBBS Phorum phpBB SMF Vanilla I personally feel that the forum should be able to display threads in both threaded and flat mode, which eliminates seven, resulting in: FUDforum mwForum MyBB NextBBS Phorum Regards, Alex ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 23:51 -0400, Alex Viskovatoff wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 23:05 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: If you think it preferable to compare various options first, there's a site http://www.forummatrix.org/ that seems to compare a bunch of forum software (including Vanilla). That's interesting. If you use the following criteria: You want some Forum that is Free and Open Source and with support to attach files and which stores data in Postgres and featuring RSS/ATOM. you get these twelve candidates: DjangoBB FUDforum GroupServer JForum mvnForum mwForum MyBB NextBBS Phorum phpBB SMF Vanilla I personally feel that the forum should be able to display threads in both threaded and flat mode, which eliminates seven, resulting in: FUDforum mwForum MyBB NextBBS Phorum Yes, this is one reason to rule out Vanilla. But shouldn't we start a dedicated Forum Package Option thread before we get too into specifics? -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 23:05 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: If you think it preferable to compare various options first, there's a site http://www.forummatrix.org/ that seems to compare a bunch of forum software (including Vanilla). That's interesting. If you use the following criteria: You want some Forum that is Free and Open Source and with support to attach files and which stores data in Postgres and featuring RSS/ATOM. you get these twelve candidates: DjangoBB FUDforum GroupServer JForum mvnForum mwForum MyBB NextBBS Phorum phpBB SMF Vanilla I personally feel that the forum should be able to display threads in both threaded and flat mode, which eliminates seven, resulting in: FUDforum mwForum MyBB NextBBS Phorum Nope. Vanilla can go thread and/or flat. Go try it yourself - http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. And you do not even want to use myBB. The admin side is horrible. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
If you are worried about resources, step 1 would be to get rid of direct downloads. Or you get the following: casual user downloads, casual user runs, casual user finds problem, casual user doesn't have forums to get help, casual user leave. 1 download worth of bandwidth wasted. And that's the main source of bandwidth, users trying it out. There is nothing bad about having forums and mailing lists. Looking at the casual user, not that many want to subscribe and send emails and wait forever. I keep bringing casual user, because I seriously doubt at this point anyone is going to use OI for production, esp. with great and mature open source alternatives like FreeBSD out there. If you don't have the adequate support (i.e. at least forums and a NON-outdated wiki), then you will drive many potential users away and will become just another distro on distrowatch whose users are the devs and a handful fanboys. -- Lyubomir Grigorov (bgalakazam) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. A server that does not exchange info with other NNTP servers, and requires a login to post, seems like it would work well enough. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
What about the passionate fights? If we move to a forum we are going to miss them. :P This list became part of life alrready. I kind of like this. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Richard L. Hamilton rlha...@smart.net wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. A server that does not exchange info with other NNTP servers, and requires a login to post, seems like it would work well enough. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 05:20:21PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: So if you are still open to helping, that makes two persons who are ready to help with a forum-type setting. Hey guys, can you hop onto IRC (#oi-dev on Freenode)? We can discuss the details there. Everyone agrees that OI's web presense is a bit...lacking. You seem motivated to do something about it, and I think that's great. We need to figure out what such a forum requires and then we can set you up with the resources you need. Ok, just set up a demo at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana/ It's just to let everybody experience what it could look like. Play around with it and post your feedback. It might not be a bad idea to post your feedback on the site itself. Note: The backend is a joy to administer (administrate). Better than that of any other forum app. I've ever used. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. -- Best Regards Alexander Oktober, 09 2011 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. Thanks, but this does not tell us what you think of the proposed forum. Have look taken a loot at it? http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana It's just a demo, but should give you an idea of what the real thingk would look like. --- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, Oct 09, 2011 at 04:20:50PM +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. I see no reason why the two projects can't happen at the same time. Writing good documentation takes time (especially if it is multilingual). It would be silly to postpone everything else just to have documentation first. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. When Ubuntu started off, they inherited a lot of good stuff from Debian. Perhaps we could use Sun's OpenSolaris documentation as a starting point? (Depends on the licensing, of course.) The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. The wiki software itself is fine. It's the content that is lacking. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. I think, and I'm no expert, that the first step should be to have decent documentation in *one* language and then go on a translation rampage. Regardless, we need documentation. Jeff. -- Defenestration n. (formal or joc.): The act of removing Windows from your computer in disgust, usually followed by the installation of Linux or some other Unix-like operating system. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello LinuxBSDos.com and List, I cant say something about the vanilla forum I have no experience about it. I have never seen it before. My opinion about forums is that you need much more experts for answering questions in good quality. In good forums you need people who have the knowledge in OI and they have to be ready to share there knowledge. But I see no reason not to start a forum too - at the same time. I say we need both to bring up OI populary. On Oktober, 09 2011, 16:30 LinuxBSDos.com wrote in [1]: Thanks, but this does not tell us what you think of the proposed forum. Have look taken a loot at it? http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana It's just a demo, but should give you an idea of what the real thingk would look like. --- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. -- Best Regards Alexander Oktober, 09 2011 [1] mid:3af1fa25407d347b5fe8757a4f613a2f.squir...@liniverse.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello Josef 'Jeff' Sipek and List, On Oktober, 09 2011, 16:39 Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote in [1]: On Sun, Oct 09, 2011 at 04:20:50PM +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. I see no reason why the two projects can't happen at the same time. Writing good documentation takes time (especially if it is multilingual). It would be silly to postpone everything else just to have documentation first. When you understand my statement wrong then is it because my english is not very well. IMHO we need docu, forum und mail-list and all can benefit from each other. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. When Ubuntu started off, they inherited a lot of good stuff from Debian. Perhaps we could use Sun's OpenSolaris documentation as a starting point? (Depends on the licensing, of course.) I think that Oracle is not very amused and they deleted a lot of informations in the web in the last months. Lets us see what changes on opensolaris are done at maintenance this weekend. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. The wiki software itself is fine. It's the content that is lacking. That's right. Feel free to contribute. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. I think, and I'm no expert, that the first step should be to have decent documentation in *one* language and then go on a translation rampage. Regardless, we need documentation. Jep. -- Best Regards Alexander Oktober, 09 2011 [1] mid:20111009143900.gg9...@josefsipek.net ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Not all responses to questions in a forum will be of good quality. As in life, there will be good and not-so-good ones. It's the nature of things. Along the same lines, there will be bad questions, usually from noobs. That's were the community steps in, to help the noob move to the next step. I do not have the final say on this, but my proposal with respects to the online presence of OI, is to retool the website, with an updated wiki, and a forum-like app for more formal question and answer sessions and general discussions. We need to build a vibrant community where noobs and guru-level users can communicate freely -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com Hello LinuxBSDos.com and List, I cant say something about the vanilla forum I have no experience about it. I have never seen it before. My opinion about forums is that you need much more experts for answering questions in good quality. In good forums you need people who have the knowledge in OI and they have to be ready to share there knowledge. But I see no reason not to start a forum too - at the same time. I say we need both to bring up OI populary. On Oktober, 09 2011, 16:30 LinuxBSDos.com wrote in [1]: Thanks, but this does not tell us what you think of the proposed forum. Have look taken a loot at it? http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana It's just a demo, but should give you an idea of what the real thingk would look like. --- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello LinuxBSDos.com and List, On Oktober, 09 2011, 17:59 LinuxBSDos.com wrote in [1]: Not all responses to questions in a forum will be of good quality. As in life, there will be good and not-so-good ones. It's the nature of things. Along the same lines, there will be bad questions, usually from noobs. That's were the community steps in, to help the noob move to the next step. I do not have the final say on this, but my proposal with respects to the online presence of OI, is to retool the website, with an updated wiki, and a forum-like app for more formal question and answer sessions and general discussions. We need to build a vibrant community where noobs and guru-level users can communicate freely I am with you with all your arguments but we have to wait to the decision makers. -- Best Regards Alexander Oktober, 09 2011 [1] mid:0d016ddce84e2646a248fb094ec14b43.squir...@liniverse.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, Oct 09, 2011 at 06:17:24PM +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: Hello LinuxBSDos.com and List, On Oktober, 09 2011, 17:59 LinuxBSDos.com wrote in [1]: Not all responses to questions in a forum will be of good quality. As in life, there will be good and not-so-good ones. It's the nature of things. Along the same lines, there will be bad questions, usually from noobs. That's were the community steps in, to help the noob move to the next step. I do not have the final say on this, but my proposal with respects to the online presence of OI, is to retool the website, with an updated wiki, and a forum-like app for more formal question and answer sessions and general discussions. We need to build a vibrant community where noobs and guru-level users can communicate freely I am with you with all your arguments but we have to wait to the decision makers. Don't just wait - try something. The test forum that got set up is *something*. Not much is happenning there, and I want to play with it a bit more over the next couple of days. (The color scheme is a bit weird, but that's not important right now.) What I'm trying to say is...if you want to start a documentation project - just do it. OpenIndiana in a community project and so there are no decision makers. In a way, everyone is a decision maker. So, if you want to do documentation, start collecting it. There's a lot out there. What wiki software ends up being used for it (if any) is not really relevant to the project start. Jeff. -- FORTUNE PROVIDES QUESTIONS FOR THE GREAT ANSWERS: #19 A: To be or not to be. Q: What is the square root of 4b^2? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 18:35 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. Mailing Lists are inherently community oriented. That some other johnny-come-lately technology, e.g. web based forums, has subsequently gained popularity does not invalidate mailing lists communities. I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. And if modern numbers reverse that, it may be more of an artifact that web pages are ten to 50 times fatter than they were back in the day when I had to keep 28k modem (the cat's meow at the time because it had doubled the previous speed) capabilities in mind. And yes, with streaming media port 80 may well have supplanted 25 but my point remains valid. I personally much, much prefer mlm's because its a push, rather than pull medium. Once I'm subscribed to a list, everything is there in my inbox. The problem might be finding it, but that's another problem. Modern MLM's, e.g. Mailman, typically sport searchable web archives as well for those desiring pull medium. That doesn't mean forums are useless. I like forums too. But for technical discussions I prefer mailing lists. For example, consider a newbie querry. If posted to mlm, the q AND as well as any and all follow ups are pushed to the entire community at large. Maybe joe grey beard expert spots an error in the part of the response that isn't quite correct, so they post follow up. If web forums, this expert may never see the question or follow ups unless they take the time to pull from the web site. So forums need larger base out of the gate to reach critical mass compared to mlm. Bridging the two may sound like a good solution, but I've _never_ seen such a solution that actually worked _well_ in practice. At least for those of us who prefer mlm, as threads rapidly become horked up top the point were one now _must_ view via forum interface to be able to follow. One area where web forums clearly superior to mlm is where you have want/need to monetize the community via ads and such. Now I don't want to scare you off from contributing to OI but I think much of what you say is predicated upon some erroneous assumptions as well as your personal preferences, wh/because you can point to some others who share those preferences becomes a mandate for OI to follow. This is not necessarily so. I also curious if you may have _any_ type of affiliation with Vanilla because I'm pretty familiar w/a number of forum packages, never heard of vanilla until recently, and fail to see what, if any, advantage it offers over various alternatives. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 02:51 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1!!! Sad that newer generation seems to have missed this very useful protocol - indeed, as some have argued, the original groupware. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On 10/ 9/11 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. I don't think that's been true for many years. Last I heard, YouTube Netflix dominated the bandwidth. I personally much, much prefer mlm's because its a push, rather than pull medium. Once I'm subscribed to a list, everything is there in my inbox. The problem might be finding it, but that's another problem. Modern MLM's, e.g. Mailman, typically sport searchable web archives as well for those desiring pull medium. That's why I participate actively in dozens of mailing lists, but don't have time to around checking dozens of forum sites. The only forum-like site I really stay involved with is the StackOverflow family, but that's mainly via monitoring various tags there via RSS feeds in Thunderbird. -- -Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 9, 2011, at 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 18:35 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. Mailing Lists are inherently community oriented. That some other johnny-come-lately technology, e.g. web based forums, has subsequently gained popularity does not invalidate mailing lists communities. I prefer mailing lists because I can be subscribed to multiple topics and have only one place I need to go in order to stay abreast of the topics I choose to follow. With web forums, that's not as easy. RSS feeds/readers have made it easier. Strangely enough, web forums that post new topics as twitter comments, and then email copies of replies seems to be taking on popularity, so that now I'm able to follow some sites on Twitter to see what's new, and if I participate in a thread I can then subscribe to email updates of that conversation. With that approach I no longer have to go visit the forum directly until I get a notification (twitter or email) of something new. All of that said, however, I've noticed that newer internet users are not so much internet users but rather WEB users. For them, support mechanisms are Forum based, not mailing list. Some may eventually get on mailing lists, but the forums tend to be their preferred choice. Their popularity has reached the point where one forum software company also has Android (not sure about iphone) apps that are able to communicate with the forum software directly giving a mobile interface other than the web native interface. Despite personal preferences aside, the current reality is that a web forum can be, right or wrong, a critical factor in the success of a project, and may be viewed as an indication of the health of the project as well. And, if we do start a web forum, until we have a critical mass of active experts able to answer questions, I believe we should have the forum gated to the mailing lists. Otherwise we'll end up with two classes of users and answers. It takes work to build a forum and get the community active and helping each other, and without gating the forums to the mailing list I'm betting there will be frustrating delays between questions asked and answers that really help them from those that are not used to checking the forums too. I don't see the gate between forum and mailing list being there forever though. There's not an easy answer here. If the concern is that there is an undisclosed relationship with a new forum system, then use one of the older ones that are common, then consider using something like phpBB that's been around for a while. Or, if we can get it approved, something like vBulletin that has the mobile apps I mentioned previously. If there's support for going towards vBulletin, I'd consider sponsoring (and hosting if necessary) part (or possibly all) of the cost to get the initial license (licenses are one time, with upgrades within the release included, but not upgrades to next major release). And, for the record, I have no relationship with phpBB or vBulletin, other than I have setup phpBB and I have been a user in a community that uses vBulletin. However, to really benefit, it would help if the forums, wiki, site documentation, etc. were all under one umbrella and seamless to the users. Going to one place for wiki documentation, another for forums, and possibly others for other information, ends up leaving the user with a disconnected and unprofessional feeling about the project, IMO, which can be worse than not having the forums to begin with. Thoughts? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 9, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 02:51 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1!!! Sad that newer generation seems to have missed this very useful protocol - indeed, as some have argued, the original groupware. Yes. as I said in a previous message, it seems the new generation of internet users are really web users. If it's not on the web it's doesn't really count. Sad. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 12:32 -0700, Gregory Youngblood wrote: On Oct 9, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 02:51 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1!!! Sad that newer generation seems to have missed this very useful protocol - indeed, as some have argued, the original groupware. Yes. as I said in a previous message, it seems the new generation of internet users are really web users. If it's not on the web it's doesn't really count. Sad. Yet I have NEVER gone to e.g. FreeBSD forums for an answer. Maybe they got some good people there. I don't know. But I DO know that the lists are where the true experts hang out. Now if all you need is someone to point you to /etc or something ??? The point is that it depends a lot on the particular community. And it's goals. OpenBSD, for example, has now desires for world domination and could care less whether I eat their dog food or not. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Oct 9, 2011, at 12:37 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 12:32 -0700, Gregory Youngblood wrote: On Oct 9, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 02:51 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1!!! Sad that newer generation seems to have missed this very useful protocol - indeed, as some have argued, the original groupware. Yes. as I said in a previous message, it seems the new generation of internet users are really web users. If it's not on the web it's doesn't really count. Sad. Yet I have NEVER gone to e.g. FreeBSD forums for an answer. Maybe they got some good people there. I don't know. But I DO know that the lists are where the true experts hang out. Now if all you need is someone to point you to /etc or something ??? The point is that it depends a lot on the particular community. And it's goals. OpenBSD, for example, has now desires for world domination and could care less whether I eat their dog food or not. I can't say that I've never gone to a forum for an answer. Sometimes Google takes me to forums when I'm looking up something. Other times it might be a mailing list archive. I think the question that needs to be asked is who and what kind of user OI wishes to target and/or attract. I believe that's at the foundation of everything, and should provide the basis for deciding the direction on whether to set up forums or not. Greg ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 18:35 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. Mailing Lists are inherently community oriented. That some other johnny-come-lately technology, e.g. web based forums, has subsequently gained popularity does not invalidate mailing lists communities. I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. And if modern numbers reverse that, it may be more of an artifact that web pages are ten to 50 times fatter than they were back in the day when I had to keep 28k modem (the cat's meow at the time because it had doubled the previous speed) capabilities in mind. And yes, with streaming media port 80 may well have supplanted 25 but my point remains valid. I personally much, much prefer mlm's because its a push, rather than pull medium. Once I'm subscribed to a list, everything is there in my inbox. The problem might be finding it, but that's another problem. Modern MLM's, e.g. Mailman, typically sport searchable web archives as well for those desiring pull medium. That doesn't mean forums are useless. I like forums too. But for technical discussions I prefer mailing lists. For example, consider a newbie querry. If posted to mlm, the q AND as well as any and all follow ups are pushed to the entire community at large. Maybe joe grey beard expert spots an error in the part of the response that isn't quite correct, so they post follow up. If web forums, this expert may never see the question or follow ups unless they take the time to pull from the web site. So forums need larger base out of the gate to reach critical mass compared to mlm. Bridging the two may sound like a good solution, but I've _never_ seen such a solution that actually worked _well_ in practice. At least for those of us who prefer mlm, as threads rapidly become horked up top the point were one now _must_ view via forum interface to be able to follow. One area where web forums clearly superior to mlm is where you have want/need to monetize the community via ads and such. Now I don't want to scare you off from contributing to OI but I think much of what you say is predicated upon some erroneous assumptions as well as your personal preferences, wh/because you can point to some others who share those preferences becomes a mandate for OI to follow. This is not necessarily so. I fail to see why you consider my statements erroneous assumptions. Whether we like it or not, forums rule. The most prolific communities on the Internet are forums, or forum-like. answers.yahoo.com. facebook, Google Groups, are all forum-type communities. That I'm advocating for such is not necessarily a personal preferences, but a recognition of what I feel, based on what I've seem elsewhere, of what the community needs to do to bring all the goodies that oi has to offer to mainstream users. If you want to promote something, I think you can make the task a bit easier if you take it to where crowds like to gather. I also curious if you may have _any_ type of affiliation with Vanilla because I'm pretty familiar w/a number of forum packages, never heard of vanilla until recently, and fail to see what, if any, advantage it offers over various alternatives. I have no affiliations with the developers of Vanilla. I found it just after setting up http://linuxbsdos.com/ask, and wished I had found it sooner. It's Free Software, and it's better than anything I've ever used; I've used all the popular forums apps available. If you want to see how it works, take a look at the demo I set up at http://linuxbsdos.com/askopenindiana. It's the same concept that the guys responsible for http://stackoverflow.com used. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 12:32 -0700, Gregory Youngblood wrote: On Oct 9, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 02:51 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote: On Oct 8, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 06:35:57PM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: As Bernd Helber remarked, forums can play a significant role in Linux distributions, as they allow users to have conversations. It would be great if an initiative to create one for OI could be started. I agree that forums are more user-friendly when you're searching for an answer that already exists. However, I find mailing lists easier to interact with and reply to on a regular basis. I think the reason the OpenSolaris forums worked so well is that each forum also had a mailing list bridged with it, so you got the best of both worlds (easy search and easy participation). My request would be the the mailing lists not be dumped in favor of forums, but rather set up as another way of participating with the forums. I didn't call for abandoning the mailing list, rather for setting up something that is more community-oriented. So, who's gonna make the decision? I think that having a bridge between the two would be great. Either way, we could set up some experimental thing and see if it works. Jeff. I must be old-fashioned, but I find an NNTP server easier than forums (and less junk accumulating on my mail server). Seamonkey has an adequate reader, although I prefer knews. Those have nice threading, killfiles, etc. And they're usually _much_ faster and less problems than a web forum. +1!!! Sad that newer generation seems to have missed this very useful protocol - indeed, as some have argued, the original groupware. Yes. as I said in a previous message, it seems the new generation of internet users are really web users. If it's not on the web it's doesn't really count. Sad. Yet I have NEVER gone to e.g. FreeBSD forums for an answer. Maybe they got some good people there. I don't know. But I DO know that the lists are where the true experts hang out. Now if all you need is someone to point you to /etc or something ??? The point is that it depends a lot on the particular community. And it's goals. OpenBSD, for example, has now desires for world domination and could care less whether I eat their dog food or not. That attitude is why OpenBSD will continue to exist on the periphery of the technology space, in spite of all the great tools they are sitting on. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
That attitude is why OpenBSD will continue to exist on the periphery of the technology space, in spite of all the great tools they are sitting on. Precisely. And it looks like OI people want to go the same path. -- Lyubomir Grigorov (bgalakazam) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 11:43 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/ 9/11 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. I don't think that's been true for many years. Last I heard, YouTube Netflix dominated the bandwidth. So yeah, Alan, you snipped my after thought were I corrected myself. So let's factor out streaming media. Then, I think, smtp would still be quite large proportion. I personally much, much prefer mlm's because its a push, rather than pull medium. Once I'm subscribed to a list, everything is there in my inbox. The problem might be finding it, but that's another problem. Modern MLM's, e.g. Mailman, typically sport searchable web archives as well for those desiring pull medium. That's why I participate actively in dozens of mailing lists, but don't have time to around checking dozens of forum sites. The only forum-like site I really stay involved with is the StackOverflow family, but that's mainly via monitoring various tags there via RSS feeds in Thunderbird. Which is basically to say that great minds think alike At least on this one ;-P -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Gregory Youngblood greg...@youngblood.me wrote: . And, if we do start a web forum, until we have a critical mass of active experts able to answer questions, I believe we should have the forum gated to the mailing lists. Otherwise we'll end up with two classes of users and answers. It takes work to build a forum and get the community active and helping each other, and without gating the forums to the mailing list I'm betting there will be frustrating delays between questions asked and answers that really help them from those that are not used to checking the forums too. I don't see the gate between forum and mailing list being there forever though. Seriously, don't go there. The way that interaction works with mailing lists and fora is essentially incompatible. Trying to link the two (like opensolaris did) is a recipe for disaster. Any conversation that crosses over between the two worlds gets fragmented and simply annoys people on both sides of the fence. And you'll have two classes of people anyway - some people can't get on with email, others can't abide a forum. There's not an easy answer here. That's definitely true... (I would also point out that those of us discussing this subject on a mailing list may not be representative or unbiased.) -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
+1 I think a good documentation is most important. Normally I only use forums or mailing lists, if there is no answer in the doc or maybe in the wiki. I did a little research on documentation formats and posted the corrected files a week ago. I attached the files, so you don't have to search them. The thing I realized during the research was, that managing a documentation is not a trivial job. I think we should start a new doc mailing list and try to find a solution with the people who wants to help in this subject and the cooperating with the devs and the web-team. The Documentation of Freebsd in case of a classical documentation (Handbook pdf and html) and the german ubuntuusers-wiki (http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Startseite) are good examples for good and helpful documentations. I think it is a better solution to make a decision in the group than trying a huge amount of different systems by single persons. Sincerely, Tobias Famulla Am 09.10.2011 16:20, schrieb Alexander Lesle: Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Sorry, I forgot to attach the files. Am 10.10.2011 00:19, schrieb Tobias Famulla: +1 I think a good documentation is most important. Normally I only use forums or mailing lists, if there is no answer in the doc or maybe in the wiki. I did a little research on documentation formats and posted the corrected files a week ago. I attached the files, so you don't have to search them. The thing I realized during the research was, that managing a documentation is not a trivial job. I think we should start a new doc mailing list and try to find a solution with the people who wants to help in this subject and the cooperating with the devs and the web-team. The Documentation of Freebsd in case of a classical documentation (Handbook pdf and html) and the german ubuntuusers-wiki (http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Startseite) are good examples for good and helpful documentations. I think it is a better solution to make a decision in the group than trying a huge amount of different systems by single persons. Sincerely, Tobias Famulla Am 09.10.2011 16:20, schrieb Alexander Lesle: Hello List, my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hello, Am 09.10.2011 17:58, schrieb Alexander Lesle: Hello Josef 'Jeff' Sipek and List, On Oktober, 09 2011, 16:39 Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote in [1]: On Sun, Oct 09, 2011 at 04:20:50PM +0200, Alexander Lesle wrote: my opinion is that when we want to get openindiana popular that we need first a good documentation. Not only a good documentation for geeks but rather also for endusers. I see no reason why the two projects can't happen at the same time. Writing good documentation takes time (especially if it is multilingual). It would be silly to postpone everything else just to have documentation first. When you understand my statement wrong then is it because my english is not very well. IMHO we need docu, forum und mail-list and all can benefit from each other. Look at Ubuntu for the last 3 years. In the meantime they had a good documentation and a active community where you get help when you have problems. And they offered it in several languages because not everyone understand English so good that he understand the man-pages. When Ubuntu started off, they inherited a lot of good stuff from Debian. Perhaps we could use Sun's OpenSolaris documentation as a starting point? (Depends on the licensing, of course.) I think that Oracle is not very amused and they deleted a lot of informations in the web in the last months. Lets us see what changes on opensolaris are done at maintenance this weekend. the documentation was under Public Documentation Licence, but the page of opensolaris is temporary not available. How i read the Licence it is no problem to use the existing documentation and extend it. Of course we have to remove all trademarks of Oracle first. The openindiana wiki is outdated and confused, so I play in the last two weeks with www.dokuwiki.org. It can be set multilingual but my knowledge about openindiana is half-depth because I play with it until one year. The wiki software itself is fine. It's the content that is lacking. That's right. Feel free to contribute. When we find enough engaged guys who want to help to bring up a multilanguage documentation I will have a look for some webspaces. I think, and I'm no expert, that the first step should be to have decent documentation in *one* language and then go on a translation rampage. Regardless, we need documentation. Jep. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Monday, October 10, 2011 04:56 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 11:43 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/ 9/11 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. I don't think that's been true for many years. Last I heard, YouTube Netflix dominated the bandwidth. So yeah, Alan, you snipped my after thought were I corrected myself. So let's factor out streaming media. Then, I think, smtp would still be quite large proportion. And how much of that bandwidth is spam? That might bring down the numbers for smtp versus http. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Monday, October 10, 2011 03:54 AM, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: I fail to see why you consider my statements erroneous assumptions. Whether we like it or not, forums rule. The most prolific communities on the Internet are forums, or forum-like. answers.yahoo.com. facebook, Google Groups, are all forum-type communities. That I'm advocating for such is not necessarily a personal preferences, but a recognition of what I feel, based on what I've seem elsewhere, of what the community needs to do to bring all the goodies that oi has to offer to mainstream users. If you want to promote something, I think you can make the task a bit easier if you take it to where crowds like to gather. But is OpenIndiana ready for the desktop? If you have a box with Nvidia graphics, you might get away with a bit. What's the point in catering to end users when it's not ready? Then if you put up a forum for said end users and there is little to no experts on hand, you will just leave a very bitter taste for any end user brave enough to give OpenIndiana a try. Guess what that is going to do with OpenIndiana advocacy? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 09:16 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: On Monday, October 10, 2011 04:56 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 11:43 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/ 9/11 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. I don't think that's been true for many years. Last I heard, YouTube Netflix dominated the bandwidth. So yeah, Alan, you snipped my after thought were I corrected myself. So let's factor out streaming media. Then, I think, smtp would still be quite large proportion. And how much of that bandwidth is spam? That might bring down the numbers for smtp versus http. Doesn't really matter when you factor in banner ads associated with http. The glory days of the internet being populated by academics is history. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Monday, October 10, 2011 09:45 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 09:16 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: On Monday, October 10, 2011 04:56 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 11:43 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/ 9/11 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. I don't think that's been true for many years. Last I heard, YouTube Netflix dominated the bandwidth. So yeah, Alan, you snipped my after thought were I corrected myself. So let's factor out streaming media. Then, I think, smtp would still be quite large proportion. And how much of that bandwidth is spam? That might bring down the numbers for smtp versus http. Doesn't really matter when you factor in banner ads associated with http. The glory days of the internet being populated by academics is history. True that. I don't hit forums or even nntp nowadays. If I do go to a forum, it is because it is the only choice available. That push thing about mailing lists is a winner. But it does show a segmentation of the community - end users/system administrators. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 09:52 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: On Monday, October 10, 2011 09:45 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 09:16 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: On Monday, October 10, 2011 04:56 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 11:43 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 10/ 9/11 11:37 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote: I haven't looked in recent years, but the last time I did look, port 25, not port 80, was responsible for the lions share of Internet traffic. I don't think that's been true for many years. Last I heard, YouTube Netflix dominated the bandwidth. So yeah, Alan, you snipped my after thought were I corrected myself. So let's factor out streaming media. Then, I think, smtp would still be quite large proportion. And how much of that bandwidth is spam? That might bring down the numbers for smtp versus http. Doesn't really matter when you factor in banner ads associated with http. The glory days of the internet being populated by academics is history. True that. I don't hit forums or even nntp nowadays. If I do go to a forum, it is because it is the only choice available. That push thing about mailing lists is a winner. But it does show a segmentation of the community - end users/system administrators. I would characterize more as newbie vs. intermediate/seasoned users. The latter being more likely to be familiar with protocols other than http. For example, many newbies have yet to figure out that chat is not much more than glorified irc running on a different port but perfectly capable of utilizing irc for desktop support questions once they've had the opportunity to get a clue or two. For the record, I don't do much nttp these days either - and I am now curious if that may be because it's more pull like than the push I get from smtp??? H. Not to beat a dead horse, as we basically agree on the big push vs. pull picture. -- Regards-- Ken Gunderson ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 11:56:42AM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi, There seems to be plenty of resources for devs, but very little for end-users, especially those new to the Solaris way of doing stuff. There is a general discussion list, but I think it would be better if all that discussion takes place in a forum-like setting, instead of via a mailing list. I can volunteer to help set up and maintain one, and take care of other basic web-related chores. First things first, why do you thing a web-forum is better than a mailing list? Regardless, I agree that there is a bit of a lack of documentation. Do you think a forum/mailing list would work better than a wiki? Either way, we could use all the help we can find. Jeff. -- I'm somewhere between geek and normal. - Linus Torvalds ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
I forgot to add... I generally search the web for opensolaris or solaris 11 along with what I want to do. Sometimes, pre-osol ways of doing things still apply. Jeff. On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 02:32:59PM -0400, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 11:56:42AM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi, There seems to be plenty of resources for devs, but very little for end-users, especially those new to the Solaris way of doing stuff. There is a general discussion list, but I think it would be better if all that discussion takes place in a forum-like setting, instead of via a mailing list. I can volunteer to help set up and maintain one, and take care of other basic web-related chores. First things first, why do you thing a web-forum is better than a mailing list? Regardless, I agree that there is a bit of a lack of documentation. Do you think a forum/mailing list would work better than a wiki? Either way, we could use all the help we can find. Jeff. -- I'm somewhere between geek and normal. - Linus Torvalds ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them - Albert Einstein ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Hi List, firstly people tend to socialise thats a point why people like to use Blogs, Forums you name it. Wikis in general are great for Documentation. But it has not the same appeal to End Users. Have a look at Ubuntu Forums, and you know why. People like to have a Conversation, also sharing the Experience. The Forum was one of the important points why Linux Distributions like Ubuntu, OpenSuSE had appeal to Endusers in the past few years. Mailing Lists, are great for System Engineers, System Administrators and Devs. But Mailing Lists aren't very sexy. :) But i would tend to say building a Forum or a Social Network, for Solaris/OpenIndiana Nexenta Delphix Users, should be done in a proper kind of manner. Every popular Linux Distribution, also the FreeBSD Community is running Forums, or Webboards in Addition to the Mailing lists. Maybe it would make sense to talk to the guys who are in Charge for Public Relations at Nexenta, Joyent Belenix, Openindia. A Webforum for Users of Solaris Distributions, could make sense. But as we all know it takes time to build a community. Have a nice weekend Guys Am 08.10.11 20:34, schrieb Josef 'Jeff' Sipek: I forgot to add... I generally search the web for opensolaris or solaris 11 along with what I want to do. Sometimes, pre-osol ways of doing things still apply. Jeff. On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 02:32:59PM -0400, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 11:56:42AM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi, There seems to be plenty of resources for devs, but very little for end-users, especially those new to the Solaris way of doing stuff. There is a general discussion list, but I think it would be better if all that discussion takes place in a forum-like setting, instead of via a mailing list. I can volunteer to help set up and maintain one, and take care of other basic web-related chores. First things first, why do you thing a web-forum is better than a mailing list? Regardless, I agree that there is a bit of a lack of documentation. Do you think a forum/mailing list would work better than a wiki? Either way, we could use all the help we can find. Jeff. -- I'm somewhere between geek and normal. - Linus Torvalds ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- with kind regards Bernd Helber ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Help with website
Well said. Imagine all the help requests and accompanying answers that has taken place on this list, for example. How accessible are they? A forum, on the other hand, makes them more accessible, and in a nicely formatted manner than a mailing list. The community already exists. It just needs another address. And we all know that the tools to build with are freely available. Something along the lines of the Q A section of LinuxBSDos.com (http://linuxbsdos.com/ask), I think, works better than a traditional forum. -- Fini D. http://LinuxBSDos.com Hi List, firstly people tend to socialise thats a point why people like to use Blogs, Forums you name it. Wikis in general are great for Documentation. But it has not the same appeal to End Users. Have a look at Ubuntu Forums, and you know why. People like to have a Conversation, also sharing the Experience. The Forum was one of the important points why Linux Distributions like Ubuntu, OpenSuSE had appeal to Endusers in the past few years. Mailing Lists, are great for System Engineers, System Administrators and Devs. But Mailing Lists aren't very sexy. :) But i would tend to say building a Forum or a Social Network, for Solaris/OpenIndiana Nexenta Delphix Users, should be done in a proper kind of manner. Every popular Linux Distribution, also the FreeBSD Community is running Forums, or Webboards in Addition to the Mailing lists. Maybe it would make sense to talk to the guys who are in Charge for Public Relations at Nexenta, Joyent Belenix, Openindia. A Webforum for Users of Solaris Distributions, could make sense. But as we all know it takes time to build a community. Have a nice weekend Guys Am 08.10.11 20:34, schrieb Josef 'Jeff' Sipek: I forgot to add... I generally search the web for opensolaris or solaris 11 along with what I want to do. Sometimes, pre-osol ways of doing things still apply. Jeff. On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 02:32:59PM -0400, Josef 'Jeff' Sipek wrote: On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 11:56:42AM -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote: Hi, There seems to be plenty of resources for devs, but very little for end-users, especially those new to the Solaris way of doing stuff. There is a general discussion list, but I think it would be better if all that discussion takes place in a forum-like setting, instead of via a mailing list. I can volunteer to help set up and maintain one, and take care of other basic web-related chores. First things first, why do you thing a web-forum is better than a mailing list? Regardless, I agree that there is a bit of a lack of documentation. Do you think a forum/mailing list would work better than a wiki? Either way, we could use all the help we can find. Jeff. -- I'm somewhere between geek and normal. - Linus Torvalds ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- with kind regards Bernd Helber ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
