Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Anders Johansson]

On Saturday 27 October 2007 18:18:48 Aniruddha wrote:
> According to Novell
> (
> http://shop.novell.com/store/novelleu/DisplayCategoryProductListPage/catego
>ryID.3422200 ) they sell:
>
> -SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 - e-License
> -SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop SP1
> -openSUSE 10.3 (Pre-order)
>
> What is the difference between SLED 10 - e-License and SLED SP1 ? And
> what is the difference between SLED 10 - e-License priced 47 at EUR and
> SLED 10 - e-License priced at 118 EUR?

I'm not sure exactly what an e-license is (I *think* it means you get it 
directly online, as opposed to a boxed version, but don't quote me on that), 
but the 118 EUR version is for three years, so it's a discount price, as 
compared to 3*47

> According to the comparison chart
> ( http://www.novell.com/products/opensuse/comparative.html )openSUSE
> 'Security patches' have 'Limited availability. What do they mean with
> that?

The openSUSE releases are discontinued after two years, SLED is supported for 
with fixes and updates for seven years

> And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates? 

That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support

Anders

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates? 
> 
> That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
> 
> Anders
> 
> -- 

Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get
security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more
expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and
has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Anders Johansson]

On Sunday 28 October 2007 23:39:45 Aniruddha wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > > And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
> >
> > That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
> >
> > Anders
> >
> > --
>
> Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get
> security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more
> expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and
> has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.

WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy 
today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight

But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No 
office package, no programs, nothing

And you certainly don't get support

For the money you pay for SLED, you also get free access to new versions when 
they're released. Good luck trying to get that from Microsoft (hint: without 
a massive license agreement, you can forget it)

But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with 
opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.?

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Bryen]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
> On Sunday 28 October 2007 23:39:45 Aniruddha wrote:
> > On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > > > And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
> > >
> > > That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
> > >
> > > Anders
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get
> > security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more
> > expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and
> > has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.
> 
> WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy 
> today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
> 
> But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No 
> office package, no programs, nothing
> 
> And you certainly don't get support
> 
> For the money you pay for SLED, you also get free access to new versions when 
> they're released. Good luck trying to get that from Microsoft (hint: without 
> a massive license agreement, you can forget it)
> 
> But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with 
> opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.?
> 
I'm initiating a slow clap that builds up in intensity.  Everyone,
please join in!  :-)

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Mike McMullin]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
> On Sunday 28 October 2007 23:39:45 Aniruddha wrote:
> > On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > > > And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
> > >
> > > That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
> > >
> > > Anders
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get
> > security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more
> > expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and
> > has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.
> 
> WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy 
> today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight

   XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the
last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.


> But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No 
> office package, no programs, nothing

  {snip}

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Randall R Schulz]

On Sunday 28 October 2007 16:14, Anders Johansson wrote:
> ...
>
> But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off
> with opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.?

Ubuntu, I think, though the comforting challenges to your right to run 
it are absent, and you'll probably be bothered to find that you cannot 
exhibit the conspicuous consumption required to turn a bare operating 
system into something you can use to get work done.

Now, if you just bought your hardware or have needs not shared by 95+% 
of other users, you'll need to get a solid, supported, comprehensive 
OS. What was that name again? Oh, right: openSUSE.


> --
> Madness takes its toll


Ah, now I get it...


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Anders Johansson]

On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
>XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the
> last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.

The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not 
allowed to buy it as an end user

If you put together boxes to preload SLED on them, you can get it cheaper as 
well

Anders

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Randall R Schulz]

On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:13, Mike McMullin wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible
> > to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
>
>XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in
> the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.

Go to Fry's (or it's equivalent in your area (*)) and buy a chassis fan 
(or a power supply or RAM or a mainboard or a disk drive or a cabinet, 
etc.) and get an OEM version of Windows for considerably less.

I'm sad to say I need to run Windows, but I now have two OEM licenses, 
and I suspect that will suffice for the foreseeable future. God, I hope 
it does...

(*) "Equivalent" means a vendor that sells Windows OEM discs with 
virtually any hardware purchase.


> ...


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Randall R Schulz]

On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:17, Anders Johansson wrote:
> On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
> >XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in
> > the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
>
> The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale,
> you're not allowed to buy it as an end user

Heh. Right. Only if you put together boxes for sale. ... Right.

There's a reason we call it America: No rules, no laws, (next to) no 
taxes. Woo-Hoo! The best damn country on Earth!!


> ...
>
> Anders


RRS
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Cristian Rodriguez]

Aniruddha escribió:
> openSUSE
> 'Security patches' have 'Limited availability. What do they mean with
> that? And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?


openSUSE security patches are available for two years...what you pay for
the boxed set is the media, installation support and printed manuals...
SLE  is fully supported by Novell Technical services (NTS) and both
security fixes and service packs are issued  for 7 years.

In short, openSUSE is intented for end-users and SLE for
bussiness/mission critical stuff.




-- 
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sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein

Cristian Rodríguez R, Core Services
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH
Research & Development
http://www.opensuse.org/
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Mike McMullin]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 01:17 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
> On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
> >XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the
> > last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
> 
> The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not 
> allowed to buy it as an end user

  Note the readily available to consumer item here in the Great White
North:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=335900&sku=M17-7502

and it too is OEM, Tiger Direct is no fly by night operation dealing in
questionable software.

> If you put together boxes to preload SLED on them, you can get it cheaper as 
> well
   
  That is something that would definitely interest me, but, I have
questions about the annual security update subscription price for home
users.

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Mike McMullin]

On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 17:19 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:13, Mike McMullin wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > > ...
> > >
> > > WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible
> > > to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
> >
> >XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in
> > the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
> 
> Go to Fry's (or it's equivalent in your area (*)) and buy a chassis fan 
> (or a power supply or RAM or a mainboard or a disk drive or a cabinet, 
> etc.) and get an OEM version of Windows for considerably less.
> 
> I'm sad to say I need to run Windows, but I now have two OEM licenses, 
> and I suspect that will suffice for the foreseeable future. God, I hope 
> it does...
> 
> (*) "Equivalent" means a vendor that sells Windows OEM discs with 
> virtually any hardware purchase.

  I bought XP-Home Upgrade, at Price Costco for $119Can last year, I saw
it at Radio Shack for $200 Can and passed on the price.  I only wanted
the OS for my son who insisted on Windows for his desktop system.  Now I
need to learn how to make it work in my mostly Linux home network.

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:

> 
> WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy 
> today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight

That is 150 EUR and who want Vista anyways?. 

> But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No 
> office package, no programs, nothing
> 
> And you certainly don't get support

And what if you only need security patches and could care lees about
office packages, programs etc.

> For the money you pay for SLED, you also get free access to new versions when 
> they're released. Good luck trying to get that from Microsoft (hint: without 
> a massive license agreement, you can forget it)
> 
> But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with 
> opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.?
> 
> -- 

Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
becomes very difficult to sell:

Windows XP  7yr support100,- EUR
Gentoo Linuxunlimited support0,- EUR 
SLED7 yr support   329,- EUR

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Jos van Kan]

Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:03, schreef Aniruddha:
(snip)
>
> Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
> looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
> absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
> becomes very difficult to sell:
>
> Windows XP7yr support100,- EUR
> Gentoo Linux  unlimited support0,- EUR
> SLED  7 yr support   329,- EUR
>

Yeah, right. You forgot a couple:
Apples 1.99  Eur/kilogram
Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece

Regards,
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Kaare Rasmussen]

> > Yeah, right. You forgot a couple:
> > Apples 1.99  Eur/kilogram
> > Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
> >
> > Regards,
> > --
> > Jos van Kan   registered Linux user #152704
>
> If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say
> anything at all.

How is "You are comparing apples with oranges on only one parameter, the 
price" not an argument?

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
> Aniruddha wrote:
> > 
> > Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
> > looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
> > absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
> > becomes very difficult to sell:
> > 
> > Windows XP  7yr support100,- EUR
> > Gentoo Linuxunlimited support0,- EUR 
> > SLED7 yr support   329,- EUR
> 
> That Gentoo comparison is a joke isn't it?
> If you would do that you could also easily update to a new openSUSE
> version every two years what would also give you "unlimited support" for
> zero costs.
> 

No it isn't and prior to the release of openSUSE 10.3  I was preparing
for large Gentoo deployments.

You're right that I could a new openSUSE version every two years but
considering the costs (and down-time) involved in comparison to Gentoo
doesn't make a viable solution.  


> Are you targetting home users or business users with your IT company?
> That's the important question because it would give us a hint which
> costs for the customer are important anyway.
> 
> Wolfgang

Good question. I am targeting home users for now with plans for business
users in the near future. However I do want to have a stable option
(SLED) available for certain home users who require this.


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:29 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
> Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:03, schreef Aniruddha:
> (snip)
> >
> > Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
> > looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
> > absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
> > becomes very difficult to sell:
> >
> > Windows XP  7yr support100,- EUR
> > Gentoo Linuxunlimited support0,- EUR
> > SLED7 yr support   329,- EUR
> >
> 
> Yeah, right. You forgot a couple:
> Apples 1.99  Eur/kilogram
> Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> Jos van Kan   registered Linux user #152704

If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say
anything at all.

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Aniruddha

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
> But I can only repeat the arguments of Anders that you either don't get or 
> don't want to get:
> Windows XP is a bare OS that you have to spend a lot of money on in buying 
> extra programs to get anything done at all. 

That is no true. last time I checked most open source program available
for Linux were also available for Windows (Openoffice, thunderbird etc.)
or had viable freeware alternatives (cdburnerxppro for k3b etc).


> Plus that you have to upgrade the 
> software  every other year and no, that's not for free. In an office 
> environment that upgrade is almost compulsory.

Which software are your referring to?

> Never ever in my whole life I would advise a customer Gentoo, because if he 
> could handle that he wouldn't have come to me for advice in the first place.

I have always advised and deployed Gentoo, which worked very well even
for complete Linux beginners. Deploying an Gentoo image costs less than
30 minutes in which you have a complete working system



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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Kaare Rasmussen]

> It's an statement, not an argument backed why facts. A good argument
> would be "It seems to me that you comparing apples to oranges
> because "

Or, as it is your problem, you could tell yourself "What is this guy trying to 
tell me? Can I use his input to get a better understanding of my original 
problem?"

But hey, do what you want. It's a free world. Don't expect people to advice 
you if you don't want to listen.

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Wolfgang Rosenauer]

Aniruddha wrote:
> 
> Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
> looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
> absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
> becomes very difficult to sell:
> 
> Windows XP7yr support100,- EUR
> Gentoo Linux  unlimited support0,- EUR 
> SLED  7 yr support   329,- EUR

That Gentoo comparison is a joke isn't it?
If you would do that you could also easily update to a new openSUSE
version every two years what would also give you "unlimited support" for
zero costs.

Are you targetting home users or business users with your IT company?
That's the important question because it would give us a hint which
costs for the customer are important anyway.

Wolfgang
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:45 +0100, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
> > > Yeah, right. You forgot a couple:
> > > Apples 1.99  Eur/kilogram
> > > Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > --
> > > Jos van Kan   registered Linux user #152704
> >
> > If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say
> > anything at all.
> 
> How is "You are comparing apples with oranges on only one parameter, the 
> price" not an argument?
> 
> -- 
> 
It's an statement, not an argument backed why facts. A good argument
would be "It seems to me that you comparing apples to oranges
because "

That way I can address the arguments. By simple stating that I am
comparing apples with oranges there is no argument involved, thus
rendering this opinion useless.


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Aniruddha

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Jos van Kan]

Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:35, schreef Aniruddha:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:29 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
> > Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:03, schreef Aniruddha:
> > (snip)
> >
> > > Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
> > > looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
> > > absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
> > > becomes very difficult to sell:
> > >
> > > Windows XP7yr support100,- EUR
> > > Gentoo Linux  unlimited support0,- EUR
> > > SLED  7 yr support   329,- EUR
> >
> > Yeah, right. You forgot a couple:
> > Apples 1.99  Eur/kilogram
> > Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
> >
> > Regards,
> > --
> > Jos van Kan   registered Linux user #152704
>
> If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say
> anything at all.
>

But I can only repeat the arguments of Anders that you either don't get or 
don't want to get:
Windows XP is a bare OS that you have to spend a lot of money on in buying 
extra programs to get anything done at all. Plus that you have to upgrade the 
software  every other year and no, that's not for free. In an office 
environment that upgrade is almost compulsory.
Never ever in my whole life I would advise a customer Gentoo, because if he 
could handle that he wouldn't have come to me for advice in the first place.
If you want Suse for free, get Opensuse and not SLED. The extra support you 
get comes at a price. 50 E a year is peanuts for a company.

In other words, you're comparing apples with oranges. Sheez.
-- 
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Wolfgang Rosenauer]

Aniruddha wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
>> Aniruddha wrote:
>>> Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always
>>> looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am
>>> absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED
>>> becomes very difficult to sell:
>>>
>>> Windows XP  7yr support100,- EUR
>>> Gentoo Linuxunlimited support0,- EUR 
>>> SLED7 yr support   329,- EUR
>> That Gentoo comparison is a joke isn't it?
>> If you would do that you could also easily update to a new openSUSE
>> version every two years what would also give you "unlimited support" for
>> zero costs.
>>
> 
> No it isn't and prior to the release of openSUSE 10.3  I was preparing
> for large Gentoo deployments.
>
> You're right that I could a new openSUSE version every two years but
> considering the costs (and down-time) involved in comparison to Gentoo
> doesn't make a viable solution.  

So I wouldn't expect any lower downtimes or costs when you'd use Gentoo.
Sorry but I don't believe that Gentoo is doing a great job in keeping
compatibility and stability (over for example 7 years) so that you would
have to invest a lot of time to fix systems after "broken" updates.

BTW your numbers seem to be wrong. I get 279 EUR für 7 years of SLED.

>> Are you targetting home users or business users with your IT company?
>> That's the important question because it would give us a hint which
>> costs for the customer are important anyway.
>
> Good question. I am targeting home users for now with plans for business
> users in the near future. However I do want to have a stable option
> (SLED) available for certain home users who require this.

OK, in my opinion SLED is pretty interesting for companies because they
don't have to care too much about the workstations themselves. Updates
are available a long time and do work in most cases so it's not much
maintenance needed (what would cause quite some costs for companies).
For installations with Gentoo you'd need more manpower to maintain the
systems I'd bet so it comes with a cost.

Compared with Windows I think it's in most cases no simple price
comparison. We are talking about two completely different systems with
advantages and disadvantages. In a corporate environment you also
mustn't compare with XP Home. So the price difference is not high and it
makes IMHO no sense to compare these prices. Compare everything else but
not the license/maintenance costs here.

I don't have too many arguments in the home user space though. If people
want a Linux system which is supported for a long time they have to
invest money in some form.
Gentoo is also no option here IMHO because those people don't want to
"play" with the Linux system but work with it.

Wolfgang
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:27 +0100, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
> > It's an statement, not an argument backed why facts. A good argument
> > would be "It seems to me that you comparing apples to oranges
> > because "
> 
> Or, as it is your problem, you could tell yourself "What is this guy trying 
> to 
> tell me? Can I use his input to get a better understanding of my original 
> problem?"
> 

That is exactly my point 'comparing apples to oranges' is useless as
input.


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:36 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

> So I wouldn't expect any lower downtimes or costs when you'd use Gentoo.
> Sorry but I don't believe that Gentoo is doing a great job in keeping
> compatibility and stability (over for example 7 years) so that you would
> have to invest a lot of time to fix systems after "broken" updates.

My experience has been otherwise, everywhere I have deployed Gentoo it
required almost zero maintenance. However I must admit these were home
users only. However looking at the cases in which Gentoo is deployed on
a large scale (Medium to large clusters using Gentoo) I suspect it would
be also suitable for a corporate environment. 

> 
> BTW your numbers seem to be wrong. I get 279 EUR für 7 years of SLED.
My mistake, where did you get that figure?


> OK, in my opinion SLED is pretty interesting for companies because they
> don't have to care too much about the workstations themselves. Updates
> are available a long time and do work in most cases so it's not much
> maintenance needed (what would cause quite some costs for companies).
> For installations with Gentoo you'd need more manpower to maintain the
> systems I'd bet so it comes with a cost.

I think you are right about SLED being interesting for companies. maybe
Novell should make a interesting offering for home users looking for
something very stable?

Another problem is that SLED has security support for far fewer
packages. SLED only provides support for suse-oss and suse-no-oss which
isn't a whole lot (I guess around 3000 packages) in comparison to
Gentoo/Debian/FreeBSD which have security support for respectively:
12.000/22.000/16.000 packages.

> Compared with Windows I think it's in most cases no simple price
> comparison. We are talking about two completely different systems with
> advantages and disadvantages. In a corporate environment you also
> mustn't compare with XP Home. So the price difference is not high and it
> makes IMHO no sense to compare these prices. Compare everything else but
> not the license/maintenance costs here.

There you have a point, however it would be good for Novell to offer
something for the home user besides openSUSE.

> I don't have too many arguments in the home user space though. If people
> want a Linux system which is supported for a long time they have to
> invest money in some form.
> Gentoo is also no option here IMHO because those people don't want to
> "play" with the Linux system but work with it.
> 
> Wolfgang

I have deployed Gentoo many times to absolute Linux beginners without
problems. As long as you know how to click an icon on the desktop you're
fine. Any problems I encountered could be easily (within 10 minutes) be
solved through SSH.


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[James Knott]

Mike McMullin wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 01:17 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
>   
>> On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
>> 
>>>XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the
>>> last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
>>>   
>> The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not 
>> allowed to buy it as an end user
>> 
>
>   Note the readily available to consumer item here in the Great White
> North:
> http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=335900&sku=M17-7502
>
> and it too is OEM, Tiger Direct is no fly by night operation dealing in
> questionable software.
>
>   
>> If you put together boxes to preload SLED on them, you can get it cheaper as 
>> well
>> 
>
>   That is something that would definitely interest me, but, I have
> questions about the annual security update subscription price for home
> users.
>
>   
A lot of people seem to think there's some law against selling OEM
software, when it's in fact a contract issue between the software
company and the end vendor.  The vendor may have a contract that says
they can't sell, except as bundled with hardware, but the customer has
absolutely no contract with the software producer that prohibits buying
an OEM package.  Many vendors get around that contract by bundling with
some permitted hardware, such as a hard drive.


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Wolfgang Rosenauer]

Aniruddha wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:36 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
> 
>> So I wouldn't expect any lower downtimes or costs when you'd use Gentoo.
>> Sorry but I don't believe that Gentoo is doing a great job in keeping
>> compatibility and stability (over for example 7 years) so that you would
>> have to invest a lot of time to fix systems after "broken" updates.
> 
> My experience has been otherwise, everywhere I have deployed Gentoo it
> required almost zero maintenance. However I must admit these were home
> users only. However looking at the cases in which Gentoo is deployed on
> a large scale (Medium to large clusters using Gentoo) I suspect it would
> be also suitable for a corporate environment. 

I have to admit that I never used Gentoo myself but can only try to
assume by their concept.

>> BTW your numbers seem to be wrong. I get 279 EUR für 7 years of SLED.
> My mistake, where did you get that figure?

http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/pricing_euro.html
Take 2x3years and 1 year in addition instead of 7x1 ;-)

> Another problem is that SLED has security support for far fewer
> packages. SLED only provides support for suse-oss and suse-no-oss which
> isn't a whole lot (I guess around 3000 packages) in comparison to
> Gentoo/Debian/FreeBSD which have security support for respectively:
> 12.000/22.000/16.000 packages.

One could discuss about guaranteed product features provided by a
company or voluntary work which might be done by the community (or not).
That is something everyone has to decide for himself.

> I have deployed Gentoo many times to absolute Linux beginners without
> problems. As long as you know how to click an icon on the desktop you're
> fine. Any problems I encountered could be easily (within 10 minutes) be
> solved through SSH.

Yep, that's 10 minutes of your time. Who is paying for that? You or your
customer? For how many customers would you do that for free?
(I don't argue that stuff like that could happen with bad updates
everywhere but in theory it should be covered by your maintenance
contract where you get support for that kind of stuff.)

Wolfgang
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 07:26 -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Mike McMullin wrote:
> > I only wanted the OS for my son who insisted on Windows for his desktop 
> > system.
> 
> You try your best to raise your kids well, but some of them still go
> wrong.  ;-)
> 
> -- 
> Use OpenOffice.org 

Blame it on the videogames ;)

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[James Knott]

Mike McMullin wrote:
> I only wanted the OS for my son who insisted on Windows for his desktop 
> system.

You try your best to raise your kids well, but some of them still go
wrong.  ;-)

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 12:39 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote: 
> > Which software are your referring to?
> 
> Office et al. Only now it has become clear that you apparently are targeting 
> the home user, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless. The 
> knowledgeable home user may get a whole slew of open source software for 
> free, even for MS Windows, but most software for MS Windows is either 
> shareware or commercial. But  a knowledgeable home user would not come to you 
> for advice, because he does not need it.

Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have
to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory
subscription fees after your initial purchase.


> You must be joking. I installed gentoo on a virtual machine and it cost two 
> days.
Easy as an pie if you have a running Gentoo install (installing Gentoo
takes between 1-2 hours). Set USE-flags, choose your target architecture
(e.g.686) and create an image (e.g. with partimage) of your system.


> Sometimes you suddenly need a package that has not been installed yet. 
> In Suse or Debian you fire up yast or apt-get and are good to go in a matter 
> of minutes. In Gentoo you emerge your packet and it takes then a couple of 
> hours to compile.
> 
> I like the idea of gentoo, but I would not have it as my production system.

Compile times depend on your computing power, and with computing power
still doubling every two years this shouldn't be a big problem.

Besides there is no need for compiling. You can use portage binhost to
download and install binary packages.


> This will be my last contribution to this thread, because it is a complete 
> waste of time.

There your go again. You really should polish your communications skills
because you sound very rude. No one forced you to answer, it is not
necessary for you to be so inpolite. 



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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Jos van Kan]

Op ma oktober 29 2007 10:08, schreef Aniruddha:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
> > But I can only repeat the arguments of Anders that you either don't get
> > or don't want to get:
> > Windows XP is a bare OS that you have to spend a lot of money on in
> > buying extra programs to get anything done at all.
>
> That is no true. last time I checked most open source program available
> for Linux were also available for Windows (Openoffice, thunderbird etc.)
> or had viable freeware alternatives (cdburnerxppro for k3b etc).
>
> > Plus that you have to upgrade the
> > software  every other year and no, that's not for free. In an office
> > environment that upgrade is almost compulsory.
>
> Which software are your referring to?

Office et al. Only now it has become clear that you apparently are targeting 
the home user, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless. The 
knowledgeable home user may get a whole slew of open source software for 
free, even for MS Windows, but most software for MS Windows is either 
shareware or commercial. But  a knowledgeable home user would not come to you 
for advice, because he does not need it.
 
>
> > Never ever in my whole life I would advise a customer Gentoo, because if
> > he could handle that he wouldn't have come to me for advice in the first
> > place.
>
> I have always advised and deployed Gentoo, which worked very well even
> for complete Linux beginners. Deploying an Gentoo image costs less than
> 30 minutes in which you have a complete working system
>

You must be joking. I installed gentoo on a virtual machine and it cost two 
days. Sometimes you suddenly need a package that has not been installed yet. 
In Suse or Debian you fire up yast or apt-get and are good to go in a matter 
of minutes. In Gentoo you emerge your packet and it takes then a couple of 
hours to compile.

I like the idea of gentoo, but I would not have it as my production system.

This will be my last contribution to this thread, because it is a complete 
waste of time.

Regards,
-- 
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Bryen]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 13:02 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 12:39 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote: 
> > > Which software are your referring to?
> > 
> > Office et al. Only now it has become clear that you apparently are 
> > targeting 
> > the home user, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless. The 
> > knowledgeable home user may get a whole slew of open source software for 
> > free, even for MS Windows, but most software for MS Windows is either 
> > shareware or commercial. But  a knowledgeable home user would not come to 
> > you 
> > for advice, because he does not need it.
> 
> Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have
> to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory
> subscription fees after your initial purchase.
> 
I don't think you're accustomed to the problems that corporate consumers
face.  For the home user, these issues are not as prevalent.  But for
corporate customers, there is ALWAYS ALWAYS the price of a "hidden"
cumpulsory subscription.   Remember, corporations rarely, if ever, pay
the retail price you see for software.  They negotiate and they get
discount buyins.  Unfortunately, with Microsoft, discounts come at a
hefty price.  Take for example, a customer of mine who was griping about
recently having to spend over half a million dollars (US) on upgrades to
MS Office 2007.   His contract locked him in to buying it as a
guarantee.

As for the excuse that there are plenty of freeware options available
for XP.  Sure there is, but for corporate customers, heh, the IT
Department is unlikely to support or sanction its use in the company.
They are not about to introduce new software if it doesn't have strong
solid support behind it.  And that's where Novell comes in, because you
know you get strong solid support behind their products.

You speak of great experience when it comes to home users, and for that
I respect you.  But your assumptions about the
culture/politics/buying-power of the corporate world are severely
misguided.

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 08:22 -0500, Bryen wrote:
> > Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have
> > to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory
> > subscription fees after your initial purchase.
> > 
> I don't think you're accustomed to the problems that corporate consumers
> face.  For the home user, these issues are not as prevalent.  But for
> corporate customers, there is ALWAYS ALWAYS the price of a "hidden"
> cumpulsory subscription.   Remember, corporations rarely, if ever, pay
> the retail price you see for software.  They negotiate and they get
> discount buyins.  Unfortunately, with Microsoft, discounts come at a
> hefty price.  Take for example, a customer of mine who was griping about
> recently having to spend over half a million dollars (US) on upgrades to
> MS Office 2007.   His contract locked him in to buying it as a
> guarantee.
> 
> As for the excuse that there are plenty of freeware options available
> for XP.  Sure there is, but for corporate customers, heh, the IT
> Department is unlikely to support or sanction its use in the company.
> They are not about to introduce new software if it doesn't have strong
> solid support behind it.  And that's where Novell comes in, because you
> know you get strong solid support behind their products.
> 
> You speak of great experience when it comes to home users, and for that
> I respect you.  But your assumptions about the
> culture/politics/buying-power of the corporate world are severely
> misguided.
> 
> -- 
> ---Bryen---
> 

I think we should make a distinction between small business and large
corporations. You are absolutely right about large corporations. However
these arguments doesn't apply for small businesses. Small business is
almost in the boat as the home user. For example often they don't have
enough workstations to negotiate discount buyins. What can Novell offer
small business and the home user?


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Bryen]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 14:42 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 08:22 -0500, Bryen wrote:
> > > Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have
> > > to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory
> > > subscription fees after your initial purchase.
> > > 
> > I don't think you're accustomed to the problems that corporate consumers
> > face.  For the home user, these issues are not as prevalent.  But for
> > corporate customers, there is ALWAYS ALWAYS the price of a "hidden"
> > cumpulsory subscription.   Remember, corporations rarely, if ever, pay
> > the retail price you see for software.  They negotiate and they get
> > discount buyins.  Unfortunately, with Microsoft, discounts come at a
> > hefty price.  Take for example, a customer of mine who was griping about
> > recently having to spend over half a million dollars (US) on upgrades to
> > MS Office 2007.   His contract locked him in to buying it as a
> > guarantee.
> > 
> > As for the excuse that there are plenty of freeware options available
> > for XP.  Sure there is, but for corporate customers, heh, the IT
> > Department is unlikely to support or sanction its use in the company.
> > They are not about to introduce new software if it doesn't have strong
> > solid support behind it.  And that's where Novell comes in, because you
> > know you get strong solid support behind their products.
> > 
> > You speak of great experience when it comes to home users, and for that
> > I respect you.  But your assumptions about the
> > culture/politics/buying-power of the corporate world are severely
> > misguided.
> > 
> > -- 
> > ---Bryen---
> > 
> 
> I think we should make a distinction between small business and large
> corporations. You are absolutely right about large corporations. However
> these arguments doesn't apply for small businesses. Small business is
> almost in the boat as the home user. For example often they don't have
> enough workstations to negotiate discount buyins. What can Novell offer
> small business and the home user?
> 
> 
First of all, because it is clear you are using Evolution, please use
Ctrl+L when replying to a list post.  Otherwise, I (we) get a double
email from you.

Now, What can Novell offer the small business environment?  Well, Novell
offers the Open WorkGroup Suite Small Business Edition.  This includes
OES, SLES, SLED, GroupWise, etc. for up to 200 users.  Cost: $350 per 5
users.  (That comes to $70 per user for 7 years of support - or roughly
$10 a year.)   Of course that is retail.  Going through your
distributor, you may be able to get even cheaper discounts.

Pretty good bang for your buck if you ask me.



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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:12 -0500, Bryen wrote:
> > 
> First of all, because it is clear you are using Evolution, please use
> Ctrl+L when replying to a list post.  Otherwise, I (we) get a double
> email from you.\

Hey I always use CTRL+l only the last mail was a mistake :(

> Now, What can Novell offer the small business environment?  Well, Novell
> offers the Open WorkGroup Suite Small Business Edition.  This includes
> OES, SLES, SLED, GroupWise, etc. for up to 200 users.  Cost: $350 per 5
> users.  (That comes to $70 per user for 7 years of support - or roughly
> $10 a year.)   Of course that is retail.  Going through your
> distributor, you may be able to get even cheaper discounts.
> 
> Pretty good bang for your buck if you ask me.

That is great news! Are your sure this comes with 7 year support and not
only one year? (The Novell website isn't working so I couldn't check for
myself). That would be a very good deal!

Do you happen to know if they have something like that for home users?

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Bryen]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 15:30 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:12 -0500, Bryen wrote:
> > > 
> > First of all, because it is clear you are using Evolution, please use
> > Ctrl+L when replying to a list post.  Otherwise, I (we) get a double
> > email from you.\
> 
> Hey I always use CTRL+l only the last mail was a mistake :(
> 
> > Now, What can Novell offer the small business environment?  Well, Novell
> > offers the Open WorkGroup Suite Small Business Edition.  This includes
> > OES, SLES, SLED, GroupWise, etc. for up to 200 users.  Cost: $350 per 5
> > users.  (That comes to $70 per user for 7 years of support - or roughly
> > $10 a year.)   Of course that is retail.  Going through your
> > distributor, you may be able to get even cheaper discounts.
> > 
> > Pretty good bang for your buck if you ask me.
> 
> That is great news! Are your sure this comes with 7 year support and not
> only one year? (The Novell website isn't working so I couldn't check for
> myself). That would be a very good deal!
> 
> Do you happen to know if they have something like that for home users?
> 
Well, Novell, as a business, is targeted towards corporate markets
rather than home markets.  For the home market, openSuse would be the
alternative.   I don't see Novell coming up with the wherewithal to set
up a tech support service that would be able to handle the influx of
home user support requests.  That's a huge undertaking and would divert
Novell's focus away from their current strategy.

Also, you need to remember that SLED isn't the same as openSuse.
OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box.  But, SLED is
stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate
environment.  There's less in there.   For example, the Apache2 package
isn't included with SLED, because quite frankly, should a corporate user
be running a webserver from his desk?  :-)

That's not to say you CAN'T install Apache2 to a SLED box.  It just
isn't on the DVD, that's all.  

A stripped down, non-bloated, corporate-needs operating system has
significant advantages in desktop management and reduced troubleshooting
processes.

By the way, I also wanted to mention, another advantage of going the
Novell purchase route.  You get a better quality of OpenOffice
installation.  Sure you can get it for free from oo.org, but there are
serious compatibility issues with MS documents.  Novell has tweaked
their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document
formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break
an MS document emailed to them.

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Aniruddha]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:01 -0500, Bryen wrote:
> > Do you happen to know if they have something like that for home users?
> > 
> Well, Novell, as a business, is targeted towards corporate markets
> rather than home markets.  For the home market, openSuse would be the
> alternative.   I don't see Novell coming up with the wherewithal to set
> up a tech support service that would be able to handle the influx of
> home user support requests.  That's a huge undertaking and would divert
> Novell's focus away from their current strategy.
> 
> Also, you need to remember that SLED isn't the same as openSuse.
> OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box.  But, SLED is
> stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate
> environment.  There's less in there.   For example, the Apache2 package
> isn't included with SLED, because quite frankly, should a corporate user
> be running a webserver from his desk?  :-)
> 
> That's not to say you CAN'T install Apache2 to a SLED box.  It just
> isn't on the DVD, that's all.  
> 
> A stripped down, non-bloated, corporate-needs operating system has
> significant advantages in desktop management and reduced troubleshooting
> processes.
> 
> By the way, I also wanted to mention, another advantage of going the
> Novell purchase route.  You get a better quality of OpenOffice
> installation.  Sure you can get it for free from oo.org, but there are
> serious compatibility issues with MS documents.  Novell has tweaked
> their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document
> formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break
> an MS document emailed to them.
> 
> -- 
> ---Bryen---
> 

Thank you, this is a very good explanation. In conclusion we can say
Novell has a good solution for corporations (small or huge). For home
users openSUSE would be their best choice. The only downside I see is
the short life cycle of two years.

Interesting point about oOo, I assume this version is also available in
openSUSE?


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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Bryen]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 17:49 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:

> Thank you, this is a very good explanation. In conclusion we can say
> Novell has a good solution for corporations (small or huge). For home
> users openSUSE would be their best choice. The only downside I see is
> the short life cycle of two years.
> 
> Interesting point about oOo, I assume this version is also available in
> openSUSE?
> 
Yes.  openSuse carries the Novell version as well.  Although, like the
rest of openSuse, it is more bleeding edge.  With openSuse, you get the
latest and greatest.  But, in some ways, you're also the test guinea
pig, and as we have seen in 10.3, like sotware updater, things still
need work.  If your users don't mind it, then fine.  Otherwise, for a
strong, stable, well-tested environment, SLED is still the best bet.

For more information about the Novell version of oOo, go to
www.go-oo.org.  This site is maintained by one of the Novell developers
for OpenOffice.
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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[jdd]

Aniruddha wrote:

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:01 -0500, Bryen wrote:



OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box.  But, SLED is
stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate
environment.


and, may be the most important, the support of Novell is for all the 
included packages, not only the kernel :-). Of course, Novell can't 
support the many packages openSUSE hold.



serious compatibility issues with MS documents.  Novell has tweaked
their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document
formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break
an MS document emailed to them.


is that true? I wonder why, in this case, the enhancement are not 
ported upward to ooo?


*integration* with opensuse is better, and it's already a good thing

jdd

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Patrick Shanahan]

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* jdd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-29-07 15:22]:
> is that true? I wonder why, in this case, the enhancement are not 
> ported upward to ooo?

they are but not in all cases and not always (ever) quickly

aiui, all Novell *enhancements* are suggested/provided upstream for
inclusion at the upperlevels, kde/gnome/kernel/OPENSOURCE  :^)

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Re: [opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?

[Bryen]

On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 20:21 +0100, jdd wrote:
> Aniruddha wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:01 -0500, Bryen wrote:
> 
> >> OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box.  But, SLED is
> >> stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate
> >> environment.
> 
> and, may be the most important, the support of Novell is for all the 
> included packages, not only the kernel :-). Of course, Novell can't 
> support the many packages openSUSE hold.
> 
> >> serious compatibility issues with MS documents.  Novell has tweaked
> >> their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document
> >> formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break
> >> an MS document emailed to them.
> 
> is that true? I wonder why, in this case, the enhancement are not 
> ported upward to ooo?
> 
My understanding, the last time I read about this (maybe a year ago),
OpenOffice ships with macros disabled, whereas Novell ships with macros
enabled.  That's more of a philosophical difference than a technical
difference.  In which case, philosophies aren't upstreamed to the main
project.  It is more like a fork, although I wouldn't exactly call
Novell's OpenOffice a fork like other OpenOffice products that are out
there.
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