RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Mladen Gogala]

Allan, the world is changing rapidly and what we are faced with is nothing
less
then a complete failure of all social systems. The problem is that we need
less 
human work then ever before. ATM's, industrial robots, smart farming
machines, internet
(how many shop attendants in bookstores have lost jobs because of Amazon?)
are taking away
jobs. Airline pilots used to be glamorous characters. Now, their salaries
start at $35k and
there is a rumor about the whole new generation of airplanes which will not
need human 
pilots.  Hopefully, those will not run MS-Windows. In short, work ceased to
be in short supply. 
The problem is that there we have 6.5 billion humans on this planet and that
we all want to 
eat, have families, be healthy, have cars, cable TV and the internet access,
swimming pools 
and alike. Someone should better provide it to people if they are unable to
provide for themselves, 
or you will have crime, gated communities, social unrest and catastrophic
system failures on all sides.
With the advent of mass education, we now have an oversupply of highly
trained and 
well educated workers, as well as the complete failure of management which
still uses
the old time proven "drill sergeant" style. That is why so many damagers
fret over telecommuting.
The net result is that the prices of highly qualified work like the DBA work
are falling
and that there is no more security. We're living in another "fin de siecle"
period, which
will probably end with some sort of solution in 2070. Unfortunately, you and
me are unlikely
to benefit from that, although I'd like to see what the crazy sixties will
be like. As I was
born in 1961., I'd be in my 100's so I will not be able to enjoy the goodies
(and inhale).
I have no solution or answer to those problems, but the fact is that we're
going to be 
replaced by the machines. Arnold will be among the first ones.


--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Nelson, Allan
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:29 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


America doesn't do anything you mentioned as a collective entity.  We
individuals would like to live normal American resonably economically secure
lives.  We grew up in that environment and we kind of like it with some
individual exceptions.  Tech was supposed to provide those kind of career
paths.  Whenever this kind of thing happens the individuals involved feel
betrayed by the economic entities that have benefited both from the labor we
have invested in our careers and the money we have spent on the products
made by these corporations.  We feel that those American executives, who are
after all not making the argument that we can get cheaper executives in
India too, are breaking the implicit bargin we made.  Not that this "bargin"
ever had any standing in reality but we are talking about people's feelings
here.

Allan

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:59 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


labor is just like another raw material . when America can dump chemical ,
weapons , plastic and electronic on name of free trade to all over world ,
why are we scarred when someone else is dumping labor ??

-ak


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:39 PM


> You preachin' to the choir here ... 
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig Healey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:54 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
> > >
> > > be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the financial

> > > argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US based DBAs or
> > > pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The money 
> > > ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW, 
> > > a 75K US position would be for a junior DBA that is actually 
> > > getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
> > >
> > But don't forget the hidden costs. You need an experienced person at

> > your end, with good communications skills, to manage the
> > outsourcing. Plus, you have to take into account the time difference

> > if any "in-hours" work is to be done. Plus, once you've outsourced
> > and fired your in-house staff, you may get tied to the outsourcing 
> > company as they are the only ones who know your data. Using 
> > outsourcing purely to save money in th

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Casey Dyke]

Title: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings








can't resist this, although i may regret it ... but ...


i have seen exactly what samir describes here, with similar outcomes for those involved.


however, i worked at an overseas subsidiary of what became one of the biggest dot com failures.  i had a lot of dealings w/the head office.  i saw things from the "inside".  they were not stuffed full of overseas pretenders.  they were stuffed full of locally based pretenders.  writing crap code and making crap decisions and generally acting like a boofhead is a trait people in many countries suffer from.




-Original Message-
From: SARKAR, Samir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 1:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings



Well, you know something on thisI am not saying that all Indians are the
best in their 
business either. During the hey-days of dotcom companies and IT when anybody
who just 
could compile a simple program or even less were hired out, I have seen guys
emigrating 
from India to the US purely based on a telephone interview alone and quite a
few of them
without much skills. I have known somebody who went to the US without any
skills as a 
PL/SQL programmer (his telephone interview was given by a friend of his who
knew the 
subject) assuming that he would 'manage' if the company cross-trained him
which the 
company didnt mind doing really. But he was asked to write a simple 'select'
statement 
to select all account holders from a table and this guy knowing nothing
about SQL, called 
up his friend who told him on the phone to do a 'select * from '.
This guy started 
typing :


 select star from ;


The project manager who was right behind him watching fired him the same
day.


The point I am making is, during the boom times experienced by the IT
industry a couple
of years back and more, a large number of Indian software 'professionals'
were hired out by American 
companies and along with the qualified ones, quite a bit of trash landed up
there as well
which many of you must have had the 'mis'fortune to work with. They are the
ones who are 
responsible for the bad name earned by cheap Indian labour as well.  


Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018    



-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 22:45
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



Samir,
Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with
global trade ( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost
here is so much higher in the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in
the US to compete against people living in India. We are not standing on
even ground. Also from what I read nobody made assumptions about
competancies of Indian programmers based on their price, its based on
personal experience.  


Dennis


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.


This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
infrastructure.


Samir 


Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018    



-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.


In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.


Now Dell seems to be doing OK...


Patrice.


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



Tim,


    I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
su

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Craig Healey]

No, it's got the word "professional" in it. We can't be using that
company or they'd be done under the trade descriptions act!

Craig Healey

> -Original Message-
> From: Stephen Lee 
> Sent: 14 August 2003 20:15
> 
> No no! Not EDS. That was Ed's.  As in:
> "Ed's plumbing, welding, and database admin"
> ( and "professional dancing")
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > 
> > Didn't the UK outsource their IT function to EDS?
> > 


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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[SARKAR, Samir]

Well, you know something on thisI am not saying that all Indians are the
best in their 
business either. During the hey-days of dotcom companies and IT when anybody
who just 
could compile a simple program or even less were hired out, I have seen guys
emigrating 
from India to the US purely based on a telephone interview alone and quite a
few of them
without much skills. I have known somebody who went to the US without any
skills as a 
PL/SQL programmer (his telephone interview was given by a friend of his who
knew the 
subject) assuming that he would 'manage' if the company cross-trained him
which the 
company didnt mind doing really. But he was asked to write a simple 'select'
statement 
to select all account holders from a table and this guy knowing nothing
about SQL, called 
up his friend who told him on the phone to do a 'select * from '.
This guy started 
typing :

 select star from ;

The project manager who was right behind him watching fired him the same
day.

The point I am making is, during the boom times experienced by the IT
industry a couple
of years back and more, a large number of Indian software 'professionals'
were hired out by American 
companies and along with the qualified ones, quite a bit of trash landed up
there as well
which many of you must have had the 'mis'fortune to work with. They are the
ones who are 
responsible for the bad name earned by cheap Indian labour as well.  

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 22:45
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Samir,
Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with
global trade ( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost
here is so much higher in the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in
the US to compete against people living in India. We are not standing on
even ground. Also from what I read nobody made assumptions about
competancies of Indian programmers based on their price, its based on
personal experience.  

Dennis

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
infrastructure.

Samir 

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Nuno Souto]

IMHO, that's not your 2 cents: it's worth
a *lot* more.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 


> My 2 cents: why not outsource CEOs too? That would REALLY save big $.


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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[MacGregor, Ian A.]

Deepak The Disemboweler has a nice ring.

Ian MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:20 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L




--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:45 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


> Dennis:

> With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et al.  I 
> don't
think companies 
> are very included to do
> this because of security concerns

Companies run MS Windows, regardless of the security concerns.

> and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.   It's not a
> good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.

Well, technically speaking, India is not the whole world. Populationwise, it's only 
about 20%. As far as I know, there is no Indian mob. We have Italian, Irish, Russian, 
Chinese, Japanese, Polish and other gangs, but I've never heard of an Indian gang. So, 
with respect to security, you might be better off in India then anywhere else in the 
world. You cannot have Bonnie and Clyde, Baby face Nelson or machine gun Kelly with 
the Indian names. Machine gun Deepak just doesn't sound right.




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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Orr, Steve]

I used to work for Sabeer Bhatia. He's the guy that did Hotmail and sold it to 
Microsoft for $400,000,000.00. (Much of the deal was in MS stock when it was quite 
lower.) I worked for Sabeer at a Silicon Valley dot.com startup. He was generous to 
folks "back home" and there were some Indian businesses he helped fund but his main 
activity was still in the US. I always wondered why he didn't go back and start a 
business in India but maybe he became addicted to the American way of life and his 
fast Italian sports cars. ;-)


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and incompetent. The 
reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap too. The best 
paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a month which would be 
just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money, anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy apartments et al. 
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the 
infrastructure.

Samir 

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and killed 
the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva, I owned an Ambra 
-- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the budget sheets 
it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at least.  Perhaps someone got 
a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be moving 
to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US 
operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent 
CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What we'll end up with is a number of large 
companies that are trying to sell products to a lot of unemployed middle class people 
who won't open their wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in 
save a penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs! Support of 
production systems is only one part of the job, and the outsourcing of application 
development to another physical location then necessarily outsources the 
systems/database administration with it.  How many huge application development 
projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas, it is a 
trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector did, for obvious 
reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when you are 
treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always 
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than 
> available candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> their positions. When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> companies often find that people are seeking out the opening before 
> they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe 
> didn't occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the 
> senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally 
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we 
> are just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> extravagant dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how 
> much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA 
> work yet?
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, A

Re: Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Tanel Poder]

Just an addition, CRM isn't probably an issue, but most of countries have
laws which forbid taking and handling financial and billing information
abroad..

Tanel.

- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:04 PM


> >Dennis:
> >
> >With respect to sending production DBA positions to
> >India, et al. I don't
> >think companies are very included to do this
> >because of security concerns
> >and the confidentiality of the information stored
> >in the DB.   It's not a
> >good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> >
> >Ken
> >
>
> Ken,
>
>Where do you believe that Oracorp's CRM databases are located?
>Outsourcing to a foreign company is one thing; delocating to a foreign
subsidiary another.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephane Faroult
> Oriole
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Stephane Faroult
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
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> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>


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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Steve McClure]

>One can always find good and bad programmers any whre in world . But in
this
>thread competency is brought up only bacause of cheap labor they are
>concerned .
>
>-ak

This is true.  The most talented Oracle DBA I have ever worked with, with
the possible exception of Jared, was an Indian contractor.  He was one of
several indian contractors working on the project at the time. One of the
others was quite competent as well, but those two weren't being billing
billed at a cheap rate.  The rest of the whole flock of indian developers
were each billing $50 an hour, but couldn't collectively select from dual.
There are exceptions, but realistically you do get what you pay for.
Outsourcing Hardware doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and a company
shifting it's technical talent to a remote spot a dozen time zones and
several languages, not to mention dialects, away can't realistically save
THAT much money in practice.

Steve McClure


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Steve McClure
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Goulet, Dick]

One thing you can be sure of, if wages in India start to climb (albeit modestly by US 
standards)and/or the unemployment rate radically drops the cost of living will climb 
with the demand.  It then turns into a vicious circle of people needing more money to 
maintain their style of living which makes it cost more.  Then those IT jobs will 
return to the US.  The reason this does not work in the far east is due to the 
governments there that repress the workers.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Dennis ,

One can always find good and bad programmers any whre in world . But in this
thread competency is brought up only bacause of cheap labor they are
concerned .

-ak


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:44 PM


> Samir,
> Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with
global trade ( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost
here is so much higher in the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in
the US to compete against people living in India. We are not standing on
even ground. Also from what I read nobody made assumptions about
competancies of Indian programmers based on their price, its based on
personal experience.
>
> Dennis
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread
> is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
> incompetent.
> The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very
cheap
> too.
> The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
> month
> which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
> anybody
> in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
> apartments et al.
> And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount
I
> mentioned.
>
> This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as
investment
> costs
> are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
> infrastructure.
>
> Samir
>
> Samir Sarkar
> Oracle DBA
> SchlumbergerSema
> Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
> EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
> Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico,
and
> killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an
Aptiva,
> I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
> the Ambras did.
>
> In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
> budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
> least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.
>
> Now Dell seems to be doing OK...
>
> Patrice.
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Tim,
>
> I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
> be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they
cannot
> support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
> effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
> we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
> products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
> wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
> penny here drop a dollar there.
>
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
> Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
> outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
> necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
> many huge application development projects do you see in the US these
days?
>
> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
overseas,
> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
> did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>
> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
> you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>
>
>
> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that when there are m

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Nelson, Allan]

America doesn't do anything you mentioned as a collective entity.  We
individuals would like to live normal American resonably economically
secure lives.  We grew up in that environment and we kind of like it
with some individual exceptions.  Tech was supposed to provide those
kind of career paths.  Whenever this kind of thing happens the
individuals involved feel betrayed by the economic entities that have
benefited both from the labor we have invested in our careers and the
money we have spent on the products made by these corporations.  We feel
that those American executives, who are after all not making the
argument that we can get cheaper executives in India too, are breaking
the implicit bargin we made.  Not that this "bargin" ever had any
standing in reality but we are talking about people's feelings here.

Allan

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:59 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


labor is just like another raw material . when America can dump chemical
, weapons , plastic and electronic on name of free trade to all over
world , why are we scarred when someone else is dumping labor ??

-ak


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:39 PM


> You preachin' to the choir here ... 
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig Healey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:54 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
> > >
> > > be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the financial

> > > argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US based DBAs or 
> > > pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The money 
> > > ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW, 
> > > a 75K US position would be for a junior DBA that is actually 
> > > getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
> > >
> > But don't forget the hidden costs. You need an experienced person at

> > your end, with good communications skills, to manage the 
> > outsourcing. Plus, you have to take into account the time difference

> > if any "in-hours" work is to be done. Plus, once you've outsourced 
> > and fired your in-house staff, you may get tied to the outsourcing 
> > company as they are the only ones who know your data. Using 
> > outsourcing purely to save money in the short term is just poor 
> > management. But they won't be told
> > :-)
> >
> > Craig Healey
> >
> >
> > **
> > 
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they

> > are addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
> > material.  Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use 
> > of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by
> > persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
> > prohibited.  Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail
> > may not represent those of the company.
> >
> > If you have received this email in error please notify 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept 
> > by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses
> > (www.mimesweeper.com)
> >
> >
> > **
> > *
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > -- 
> > Author: Craig Healey
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting
services
> > 
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
> > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
> > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
> > from).  You may also send the HELP command for other
> > information (like subscribing).
> >
> --

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Goulet, Dick]

Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be moving 
to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US 
operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent 
CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What we'll end up with is a number of large 
companies that are trying to sell products to a lot of unemployed middle class people 
who won't open their wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in 
save a penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet? 
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> 
> My $0.02 worth,
> 
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> 
> 
>> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
>> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
>> see one or two, or none.
>> 
>> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
>> do that or how successful they now are.
>> 
>> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>> 
>> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It must
> be
>> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
>> changes anymore.
>> 
>> Patrice.
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>> --
>> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
>> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
>> -
>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
>> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
>> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>> 
>> 

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Tim Gorman
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat C

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Noble, Larry H.]

My 2 cents: why not outsource CEOs too? That would REALLY save big $.
Larry

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
infrastructure.

Samir 

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet? 
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN a

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Mark Leith]

Ken,

With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!

Mark

-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Dennis:

With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et al.  I don't
think companies are very included to do this because of security concerns
and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.   It's not a
good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM


> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
>
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet?
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
>
> My $0.02 worth,
>
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
>
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
>
>
> > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
> > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
to
> > see one or two, or none.
> >
> > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
> > do that or how successful they now are.
> >
> > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >
> > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
> be
> > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> > changes anymore.
> >
> > Patrice.
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> >
> >
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list a

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[AK]

Dennis ,

One can always find good and bad programmers any whre in world . But in this
thread competency is brought up only bacause of cheap labor they are
concerned .

-ak


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:44 PM


> Samir,
> Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with
global trade ( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost
here is so much higher in the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in
the US to compete against people living in India. We are not standing on
even ground. Also from what I read nobody made assumptions about
competancies of Indian programmers based on their price, its based on
personal experience.
>
> Dennis
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread
> is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
> incompetent.
> The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very
cheap
> too.
> The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
> month
> which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
> anybody
> in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
> apartments et al.
> And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount
I
> mentioned.
>
> This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as
investment
> costs
> are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
> infrastructure.
>
> Samir
>
> Samir Sarkar
> Oracle DBA
> SchlumbergerSema
> Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
> EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
> Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico,
and
> killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an
Aptiva,
> I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
> the Ambras did.
>
> In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
> budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
> least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.
>
> Now Dell seems to be doing OK...
>
> Patrice.
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Tim,
>
> I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
> be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they
cannot
> support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
> effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
> we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
> products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
> wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
> penny here drop a dollar there.
>
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
> Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
> outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
> necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
> many huge application development projects do you see in the US these
days?
>
> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
overseas,
> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
> did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>
> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
> you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>
>
>
> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than
available
> > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their
positions.
> > When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> >
> > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> executives
> > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> > just

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[AK]

labor is just like another raw material . when America can dump chemical ,
weapons , plastic and electronic on name of free trade to all over world ,
why are we scarred when someone else is dumping labor ??

-ak


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:39 PM


> You preachin' to the choir here ... 
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig Healey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:54 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
> > >
> > > be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the
> > > financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US
> > > based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to
> > > beat.  The money ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop
> > > type of quotes, IOW, a 75K US position would be for a junior
> > > DBA that is actually getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
> > >
> > But don't forget the hidden costs. You need an experienced
> > person at your end, with good communications skills, to
> > manage the outsourcing. Plus, you have to take into account
> > the time difference if any "in-hours" work is to be done.
> > Plus, once you've outsourced and fired your in-house staff,
> > you may get tied to the outsourcing company as they are the
> > only ones who know your data. Using outsourcing purely to
> > save money in the short term is just poor management. But
> > they won't be told
> > :-)
> >
> > Craig Healey
> >
> >
> > **
> > 
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
> > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity
> > to whom they are addressed and may contain confidential
> > and/or privileged material.  Any review, retransmission,
> > dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in
> > reliance upon, this information by
> > persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
> > prohibited.  Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail
> > may not represent those of the company.
> >
> > If you have received this email in error please notify
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
> > swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses
> > (www.mimesweeper.com)
> >
> >
> > **
> > *
> >
> > -- 
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > -- 
> > Author: Craig Healey
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
> > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
> > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
> > from).  You may also send the HELP command for other
> > information (like subscribing).
> >
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: AK
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Orr, Steve]

Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so 
there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a 
domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual 
host that redirects to your own operations. Adopt pseudonymns with ethnic sounding 
names reflecting the ISP overseas address. A good place to setup shop would be 
someplace like Montana. Anyone want to join me in this venture?

Steve, er uh, Gerhardt Mohammad Lee Kim,



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be moving 
to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US 
operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent 
CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What we'll end up with is a number of large 
companies that are trying to sell products to a lot of unemployed middle class people 
who won't open their wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in 
save a penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs! Support of 
production systems is only one part of the job, and the outsourcing of application 
development to another physical location then necessarily outsources the 
systems/database administration with it.  How many huge application development 
projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas, it is a 
trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector did, for obvious 
reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when you are 
treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always 
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than 
> available candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> their positions. When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> companies often find that people are seeking out the opening before 
> they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe 
> didn't occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the 
> senior executives felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would 
> have naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
> wild. I think we are just about to come out of the natural down cycle 
> due to the extravagant dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing 
> articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has 
> anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions 
> (although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the 
> internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
> Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
> own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
> Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most 
> of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email 
> when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste your time 
> on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> 
> My $0.02 worth,
> 
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> 
> 
>> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job 
>> postings,
> two
>> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I 
>> tend to see one or two, or none.
>> 
>> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if 
>> they
> still
>> do that or how successful they now are.
>> 
>> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>> 
>> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It 
>> must
> be
>> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big 
>> infrastructure changes anymore.
>> 
>> Patrice.
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>> --
>> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Fa

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Meng, Dennis]

Samir,
Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with global trade 
( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost here is so much higher in 
the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in the US to compete against people 
living in India. We are not standing on even ground. Also from what I read nobody made 
assumptions about competancies of Indian programmers based on their price, its based 
on personal experience.  

Dennis

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
infrastructure.

Samir 

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet? 
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as mu

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Samir
   Thanks for your contribution to this thread. One idea I heard was that
for many years the bureaucracy in India made creating an export business
difficult. So India had a lot of well-educated people with little
opportunity to participate in the global economy. With the Internet, this
underutilized group of educated people has a way to make a contribution to
the global economy, and from the world's point of view this works well.
Perhaps you can provide feedback on this theory.
   And I have had a number of friends from India over the years that were
forced to choose between raising their family in an alien culture (the U.S.)
or returning to their homeland and giving up their career. So maybe offshore
development will be better for them.
   From a more personal point of view this offshore development trend seems
a little troubling. But then I wasn't too concerned when most of the shoe
manufacturing in the U.S. went overseas, so maybe I don't have the right to
whine too much. Also, we tended to enjoy the rocketing DBA salaries a couple
of years ago, but business leaders were very concerned about their ability
to get enough skilled people implement the projects they felt necessary to
their business success. So I think some business leaders also feel that
offshore development gives them more flexibility.

Dennis Williams
DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
infrastructure.

Samir 

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, comp

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Ryan]

im sure the quality in india is fine. anyone who does this in a metropolitan
area works with Indian immigrants. I have no beef with them. They are the
same quality as the Americans.
There are 4 times as many people in India as in the Unitied States, throw in
5 times as many in China and there are a glut of people who want these jobs.

The problem is that if American jobs are going overseas, then its an under
the cover trade deficit. Think about. Move American jobs overseas then sell
the products back to the US. This is especially alarming on government
projects since its tax payer money being exported.

How would you feel if jobs that Indians had were being exported to the US
for whatever reason? You would be concerned about your future employment and
your salary. This drives down salaries in the US. If you have 5 high quality
people for a job as opposed to 1 or 2, then you dont have to pay as much.

This is a concern of mine with illegal immigration. People say that they
take jobs Americans dont want. Well Id like to put an addendum on that, they
take jobs for WAGES Americans dont want. Now they take low end jobs which
drive down wages on poorer less skilled Americans which is disproportiately
minority.

That being said if a rich Indian,pakistani,Indonesian,Chinese, or anywhere
else wants to open up shop and higher Americans in the US, come on in... Its
the other way around that concerns me.


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:14 PM


> One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread
> is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
> incompetent.
> The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very
cheap
> too.
> The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
> month
> which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
> anybody
> in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
> apartments et al.
> And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount
I
> mentioned.
>
> This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as
investment
> costs
> are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
> infrastructure.
>
> Samir
>
> Samir Sarkar
> Oracle DBA
> SchlumbergerSema
> Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
> EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
> Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico,
and
> killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an
Aptiva,
> I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
> the Ambras did.
>
> In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
> budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
> least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.
>
> Now Dell seems to be doing OK...
>
> Patrice.
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Tim,
>
> I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
> be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they
cannot
> support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
> effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
> we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
> products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
> wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
> penny here drop a dollar there.
>
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
> Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
> outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
> necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
> many huge application development projects do you see in the US these
days?
>
> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
overseas,
> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
> did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>
> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
> you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>
>
>
> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that w

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Nelson, Allan]

One of the truly dog eat dog aspects of this is that the Indians, in
some areas, are unable to compete with the Chinese and so they
themselves are being outsourced.  

I don't think any amount of complaining from DBA ranks will make the
slightest bit of difference to the average collection of greedy, stupid
executives that are pervasive in industry.  If business people ever had
ethics that extended beyond profit margins they certainly show no
evidence of that today.  And Sturgeon's law shows that you are likely to
be dealing with the least competent greedy people.

I'm afflicted by a sensitivity to historical irony.  In the 60's and
70's the literature complained that corporate executives had
insufficient incentives to perform well because their compensation did
not vary with the corporation's stock performance.  In addition, there
was general consensus that accounting staff were too conservative to
meet the creative financing requirements of modern corporations. We
certainly changed all that.  Declining emphasis on character aligned
with stock based compensation plans and "creative" MBAs in CFO slots
certainly did produce some interesting corporate performance.  I live
and work in Houston and the examples I have in mind are Enron, Dynergy,
Reliant..

I suspect that the only thing that will moderate this is some expensive
offshore project failures that cause executive blood to be shed.  The
remarks in another post about the cultural problems inherent in turning
specs into good applications without end-user input and testing are
right on target.  Unfortunately, it will be years before academia
catches on.

Allan

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:09 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


When I worked for Oracle's custom development group I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350 consultants (150 from
Oracle). They had a number of foreign consultants on the project.  About
1 in 10 had technical skills that were above mediocre, but they worked
cheap.  The code they produced was a mess and we at Oracle wondered how
much time / money would have to be spent after the fact to clean up what
the company got on the cheap.  You get what you pay for.  I have dealt
with offshore technical Oracle staff and have found them to be cheap in
cost but very poor overall in the quality of what they delivered.
Companies will wake up to this sooner or later.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:59 AM


> 
>
> > But now I keep seeing
> > articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has

> > anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>
> Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject.  So 
> far,
no one has come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs
in-house. At the gut level it 'feels' like we should keep the jobs
in-house and that would be an overall benefit to the economy, too.
However, the financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US
based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The
money ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW,
a 75K US position would be for a junior DBA that is actually getting
35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions 
> > (although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use newspaper ads anymore. They are using the 
> > internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
> > Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
> > own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
> > Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most

> > of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an 
> > email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste
> > your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> > > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job 
> > > postings,
> > two
> > > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week,
> > now I tend
> > > to see one or two, or none.
> > >
> > > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't
> > know if they
> > still
> > > do that or how successful they now are.
> > >
> > > The market has really shrunk in two years!

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Hately, Mike (LogicaCMG)]

You should try the UK. 
The government seems to be actively encouraging this sort of thing. I think
they see short term gains to be made from cheap labour. That seems very
short-sighted to me but it's typ[ical of the set of losers we're saddled
with.



-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:34
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
> fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
> India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter 
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et 
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs 
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the 
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I 
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect 
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> > positions (although
> > > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use
> > > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, 
> > etc. to do
> > their
> > > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've 
> > seen this
> > > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area 
> > over the past
> > > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide 
> > e-mail service that
> > > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your 
> > specs.  So, why
> > > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> > >
> > > My $0.02 worth,
> > >
> > > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> > >
> > >
> > > ---

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[SARKAR, Samir]

One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread 
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody 
in India would live like a kingfancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs 
are pretty lower in all respects in India.right from setting up of the
infrastructure.

Samir 

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA 
SchlumbergerSema
Email  :  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018


-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet? 
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time 

RE: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[mkb]

I'd also like to point out that this is least likely
to happen if you are a DBA in a federal or state
government position (outsourcing to India etc not
likely to happen).

mohammed

--- Stephane Faroult <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your
> >upbeat attitude is
> >encouraging. I think you've made a good point that
> >jobs aren't always
> >advertised. Another point is that when there are
> >more jobs than available
> >candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to
> >fill their positions.
> >When there are more candidates than available jobs,
> >companies often find
> >that people are seeking out the opening before they
> >post it.
> >
> >Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous
> >years. In 1999
> >corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when
> >the catastrophe didn't
> >occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T.
> >people, the senior executives
> >felt the money was wasted). Then when spending
> >would have naturally
> >declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went
> >wild. I think we are
> >just about to come out of the natural down cycle
> >due to the extravagant
> >dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles
> >about how much development
> >work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that
> >affect Oracle DBA work
> >yet? 
> > 
> >Dennis Williams
> >DBA
> >Lifetouch, Inc.
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> 
> Dennis,
> 
>Concerning your last question, a young indian DBA
> friend of mine in Bangalore was complaining about
> the night shifts and all the donkey work Indians
> have to perform to keep a 24x7 watch on US databases
> ... I would personally tend to use timezones to get
> senior DBAs from all around the world ready to help
> at normal business hours but I guess that this will
> have to wait until costs in India raise to
> sufficient levels - which in the end will happen
> (take a look at Hong Kong and Singapore).
>I indeed believe that the market for DBAs is
> going to shrink somewhat. As someone pointed out,
> big, pharaonic projects are much less common today
> than they were a few years back. A 'mature' database
> running stable applications and that you don't want
> to upgrade hardly requires on a daily or weekly
> basis anything to do that you cannot put in a
> crontab file. Moreover, the official Oracle gospel
> is of course that new versions require less and less
> administration - a claim which provokes more
> sarcastic comments on this list than in the upper
> management levels.
> However, the amount of data which people are willing
> to store seems to be joyfully outpacing Moore's law,
> and I don't see the trend losing momentum anytime
> soon. Expect more work related to architecture,
> replication (the days of exp backups have long been
> over) and of course performance tuning. It's
> probably the junior part of the market which is
> going to bear the brunt of the slow-down. Till the
> pendulum swings back and makes outsourcing out of
> fashion, by which time I hope that India and China
> will locally provide enough work for their IT
> people, which is more than likely.
> 
> My 0.02 EUR.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Stephane Faroult
> Oriole
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Stephane Faroult
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051
> http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web
> hosting services
>
-
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an
> E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of
> 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
> ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
> from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information
> (like subscribing).


__
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Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: mkb
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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI]

You preachin' to the choir here ... 

v/r

Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
Data Services Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974



> -Original Message-
> From: Craig Healey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:54 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
> > 
> > be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the
> > financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US 
> > based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to 
> > beat.  The money ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop 
> > type of quotes, IOW, a 75K US position would be for a junior 
> > DBA that is actually getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
> > 
> But don't forget the hidden costs. You need an experienced 
> person at your end, with good communications skills, to 
> manage the outsourcing. Plus, you have to take into account 
> the time difference if any "in-hours" work is to be done. 
> Plus, once you've outsourced and fired your in-house staff, 
> you may get tied to the outsourcing company as they are the 
> only ones who know your data. Using outsourcing purely to 
> save money in the short term is just poor management. But 
> they won't be told
> :-)
> 
> Craig Healey
> 
> 
> **
> 
> 
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential 
> and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity 
> to whom they are addressed and may contain confidential 
> and/or privileged material.  Any review, retransmission, 
> dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in 
> reliance upon, this information by 
> persons or entities other than the intended recipient is 
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> may not represent those of the company.
>   
> If you have received this email in error please notify 
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>  
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been 
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> 
> 
> **
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> 
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Craig Healey
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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> from).  You may also send the HELP command for other 
> information (like subscribing).
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Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Ken - Since in your other posting you mentioned you are in the Minneapolis
area, I'll keep my eye open if something is mentioned. I strongly feel we
all need to help each other, you never can tell when it'll be your turn.

Dennis Williams
DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:45 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Dennis:

I am still in the process of changing jobs since I got laid off last year.
The company I worked for went belly up.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM


> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
>
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet?
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
>
> My $0.02 worth,
>
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
>
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
>
>
> > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
> > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
to
> > see one or two, or none.
> >
> > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
> > do that or how successful they now are.
> >
> > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >
> > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
> be
> > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> > changes anymore.
> >
> > Patrice.
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> >
> >
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
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> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hostin

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Orr, Steve]

Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so 
there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a 
domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual 
host that redirects to your own operations. Adopt pseudonymns with ethnic sounding 
names reflecting the ISP overseas address. A good place to setup shop would be 
someplace like Montana. Anyone want to join me in this venture?

Steve, er uh, Gerhardt Mohammad Lee Kim,



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be moving 
to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US 
operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent 
CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What we'll end up with is a number of large 
companies that are trying to sell products to a lot of unemployed middle class people 
who won't open their wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in 
save a penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs! Support of 
production systems is only one part of the job, and the outsourcing of application 
development to another physical location then necessarily outsources the 
systems/database administration with it.  How many huge application development 
projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas, it is a 
trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector did, for obvious 
reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when you are 
treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always 
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than 
> available candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> their positions. When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> companies often find that people are seeking out the opening before 
> they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe 
> didn't occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the 
> senior executives felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would 
> have naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
> wild. I think we are just about to come out of the natural down cycle 
> due to the extravagant dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing 
> articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has 
> anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions
> (although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the 
> internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
> Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
> own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
> Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most 
> of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email 
> when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste your time 
> on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> 
> My $0.02 worth,
> 
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> 
> 
>> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job
>> postings,
> two
>> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I
>> tend to see one or two, or none.
>> 
>> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if
>> they
> still
>> do that or how successful they now are.
>> 
>> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>> 
>> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
>> must
> be
>> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
>> infrastructure changes anymore.
>> 
>> Patrice.
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>> --
>> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Fat City N

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Boivin, Patrice J]

Adam Smith said that government restrictions on free markets was a good
thing, people keep dropping the qualifiers he put in his statements!

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 3:20 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I'm ideologically opposed to almost anything that obstructs free trade,
even if it directly affects my personal economy, income and career. It's
a global economy and other industries (e.g. auto mfgrs., textiles,
agriculture, etc.) have had to adapt or cope so why shouldn't we? What
makes us think we're so special or should be exempt? If someone can do
your job better and cheaper than you is it their fault? The best
protection is not in trade legislation but in being competitive and
providing a good service with value. If your job merely involves
"interfacing" with computers via an online session then it really
doesn't matter where you are. That can be both good and bad depending on
your circumstance.


Steve Orr, disciple of Adam Smith...

Virtually present in Bozeman, MT but actually operating from my laptop
via wireless connection while sunning at the beach on a heretofore
undisclosed Carribean Isle.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:34 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that 
> has fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's 
> done in India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs,
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have 
> > > naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
> > > wild. I
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't th

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Tim Gorman]

So, in this sense, we (or rather our jobs) really are helping world peace?
That'll make me feel better as I upsell customers to the "Biggie"-size combo
meal...  :-)

Continuing with the "water level in the lake" analogy, I do believe that
production support (applications, databases, systems, and network) and its
attendent skills (i.e. architecture, high-availability, and performance
tuning) reside in the deepest part of the lake...




on 8/14/03 9:44 AM, KENNETH JANUSZ at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> If India and Pakistan go to war. Or, China tries to retake Taiwan you will
> see this reverse real fast.
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:14 AM
> 
> 
>> Tim,
>> 
>> I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be
> moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
> support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
> effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
> we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
> products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
> wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
> penny here drop a dollar there.
>> 
>> Dick Goulet
>> Senior Oracle DBA
>> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
>> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>> 
>> 
>> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
>> Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
>> outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
>> necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
>> many huge application development projects do you see in the US these
> days?
>> 
>> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
> overseas,
>> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
>> did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>> 
>> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
>> you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>>> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
>>> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
>>> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than
> available
>>> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their
> positions.
>>> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
>>> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
>>> 
>>> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
>>> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
>>> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> executives
>>> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
>>> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
>>> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
>>> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> development
>>> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
>>> yet?
>>> 
>>> Dennis Williams
>>> DBA
>>> Lifetouch, Inc.
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
>>> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
>>> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
>>> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
>>> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
> their
>>> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
>>> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
>>> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service
> that
>>> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
>>> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
>>> 
>>> My $0.02 worth,
>>> 
>>> Ken Janusz, CPIM
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
>>> 
>>> 
 I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
>>> two
 years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
> to
 see one or two, or none.
 
 For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
>>> still
 do that or how successful they now are.
 
 The market has really shrunk in two years!
 
 There can't be a hug

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephen Lee]

It's already painted on the side of my truck:

"A-1 plumbing, welding, and database admin"

I decided, for the sake of professional appearance, to leave "professional
dancer"
off the logo.  The plumber's outfit gets double duty.

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephen Lee
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Robson, Peter]

Yeah, as another UK voice, would second Mike's comments.

However, it has always seemed to me that ones' role / post can be protected
by becoming embedded within the local system. For example, a dba working in
the systems architecture area requires a detailed understanding of the
corporate business systems, so much so that moving such a post offshore
would really be counter-productive. Even the suits can understand that.

peter


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 5:45 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


You should try the UK. 
The government seems to be actively encouraging this sort of thing. I think
they see short term gains to be made from cheap labour. That seems very
short-sighted to me but it's typ[ical of the set of losers we're saddled
with.



-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:34
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
> fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
> India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter 
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et 
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs 
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the 
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I 
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect 
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> > positions (although
> > > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use
> > > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, 
> > etc. to do
> > their
> > > recruiting for them from their own company web si

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI]

> But now I keep seeing 
> articles about how much development work is being sent 
> overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet? 

Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject.  So far, no one has 
come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs in-house.  At the gut level it 
'feels' like we should keep the jobs in-house and that would be an overall benefit to 
the economy, too.  However, the financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year 
for US based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The money 
ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW, a 75K US position 
would be for a junior DBA that is actually getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill 
range.

v/r

Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
Data Services Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974


>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> positions (although that is part of the answer) as most 
> medium to large companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.  
> They are using the internet (especially for technical jobs) 
> and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their 
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've 
> seen this definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, 
> MN area over the past couple of years.  Most of these 
> companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email 
> when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste 
> your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> 
> My $0.02 worth,
> 
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> 
> 
> > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job 
> > postings,
> two
> > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, 
> now I tend 
> > to see one or two, or none.
> >
> > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't 
> know if they
> still
> > do that or how successful they now are.
> >
> > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >
> > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for 
> work...  It 
> > must
> be
> > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big 
> > infrastructure changes anymore.
> >
> > Patrice.
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web 
> hosting services
> > 
> -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in 
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the 
> > name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may 
> also send 
> > the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> >
> >
> 
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') 
> and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB 
> ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed 
> from).  You may also send the HELP command for other 
> information (like subscribing).
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') 
> and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB 
> ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed 
> from).  You may also send the HELP command for other 
> information (like subscribing).
> 
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Tim Gorman]

Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet? 
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> 
> My $0.02 worth,
> 
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> 
> 
>> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
>> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
>> see one or two, or none.
>> 
>> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
>> do that or how successful they now are.
>> 
>> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>> 
>> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It must
> be
>> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
>> changes anymore.
>> 
>> Patrice.
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>> --
>> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
>> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
>> -
>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
>> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
>> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>> 
>> 

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Tim Gorman
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Boivin, Patrice J]

Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do.  In the short run at
least.  Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> 
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet? 
>  
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> 
> My $0.02 worth,
> 
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> 
> 
>> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
>> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
>> see one or two, or none.
>> 
>> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
>> do that or how successful they now are.
>> 
>> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>> 
>> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It must
> be
>> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
>> changes anymore.
>> 
>> Patrice.
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>> --
>> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
>> San Diego, Ca

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Thater, William]

KENNETH JANUSZ  scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:

> This makes me puke.

here they're talking about outsourcing all the IT for the division, and the
front running company is Indian and will move all but a few people to it's
home offices there.  the few dealings i've had with their people here have
been, shall we say less than optimal.  combined with a severe language
problem that makes conveying requirements rather difficult.  and no i don't
blame the consultants for that, after all English is not their native
language, but i do blame the company.

--
Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA  BAARF Party member #25
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

This time, like all time, is a very good one if we but know what to do with
it. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Thater, William
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

Dennis:

I am still in the process of changing jobs since I got laid off last year.
The company I worked for went belly up.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM


> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
>
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet?
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
>
> My $0.02 worth,
>
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
>
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
>
>
> > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
> > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
to
> > see one or two, or none.
> >
> > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
> > do that or how successful they now are.
> >
> > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >
> > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
> be
> > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> > changes anymore.
> >
> > Patrice.
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> >
> >
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like su

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[April Wells]

Title: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings





at least it explains all of the job listings for DBAs in India 


April Wells
Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA
Corporate Systems
Amarillo Texas


Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite
Adam Wells age 11




-Original Message-
From: KENNETH JANUSZ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:34 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings



This makes me puke.



- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM



> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
> fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
> India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter 
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et 
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs 
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the 
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I 
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect 
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> > positions (although
> > > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use
> > > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, 
> > etc. to do
> > their
> > > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've 
> > seen this
> > > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area 
> > over the past
> > > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide 
> > e-mail service that
> > > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your 
> > specs.  So, why
> > > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> > >
>

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

Wasn't Oracle 11i developed outside the USA?  The initial implementations
were a real mess.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM


> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
> Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
> outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
> necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
> many huge application development projects do you see in the US these
days?
>
> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
overseas,
> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
> did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>
> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
> you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>
>
>
> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than
available
> > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their
positions.
> > When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> >
> > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> > yet?
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service
that
> > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> >> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> > two
> >> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
to
> >> see one or two, or none.
> >>
> >> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> > still
> >> do that or how successful they now are.
> >>
> >> The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >>
> >> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
> > be
> >> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> >> changes anymore.
> >>
> >> Patrice.
> >> --
> >> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> >> --
> >> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> >> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> >> -
> >> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> >> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> >> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> >> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> >> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Tim Gorman
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT s

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Joe Testa]

I've seen it kill consulting rates for developers but not for the DBA side.

joe

DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote:

Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior executives
felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much development
work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
yet? 

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
My $0.02 worth,

Ken Janusz, CPIM

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
 

I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
   

two
 

years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
see one or two, or none.
For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
   

still
 

do that or how successful they now are.

The market has really shrunk in two years!

There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It must
   

be
 

a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
changes anymore.
Patrice.
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Boivin, Patrice J
 INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
   

 

--
Joseph S Testa
Chief Technology Officer 
Data Management Consulting
p: 614-791-9000
f: 614-791-9001

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Joe Testa
 INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Craig Healey]

> -Original Message-
> From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
> 
> be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the 
> financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US 
> based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to 
> beat.  The money ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop 
> type of quotes, IOW, a 75K US position would be for a junior 
> DBA that is actually getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
> 
But don't forget the hidden costs. You need an experienced person at
your end, with good communications skills, to manage the outsourcing.
Plus, you have to take into account the time difference if any
"in-hours" work is to be done. Plus, once you've outsourced and fired
your in-house staff, you may get tied to the outsourcing company as they
are the only ones who know your data. Using outsourcing purely to save
money in the short term is just poor management. But they won't be told
:-)

Craig Healey


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-- 
Author: Craig Healey
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephane Faroult]

>Dennis:
>
>With respect to sending production DBA positions to
>India, et al.  I don't
>think companies are very included to do this
>because of security concerns
>and the confidentiality of the information stored
>in the DB.   It's not a
>good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
>
>Ken
>

Ken,

   Where do you believe that Oracorp's CRM databases are located? 
   Outsourcing to a foreign company is one thing; delocating to a foreign subsidiary 
another. 

Regards,

Stephane Faroult
Oriole
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Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephane Faroult
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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[John Shaw]

It may not be a good 
idea from a security perpective - but I know my bosses are looking into purely 
for the cost. The idea seems to be keep a core set of people here and outsource 
everything else. This is happening at several companies I know of in the 
southeast (US). Eventually we will end up like manufacturing - where ever it's 
cheapest to get the job done.>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/14/2003 
10:44:38 AM >>>
Dennis:With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, 
et al.  I don'tthink companies are very included to do this because of 
security concernsand the confidentiality of the information stored in the 
DB.   It's not agood idea to open your DB's to the entire 
world.Ken- Original Message -To: "Multiple 
recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Thursday, 
August 14, 2003 10:24 AM> Ken - Since you've recently changed 
jobs, your upbeat attitude is> encouraging. I think you've made a good 
point that jobs aren't always> advertised. Another point is that when 
there are more jobs than available> candidates, companies have to 
advertise strongly to fill their positions.> When there are more 
candidates than available jobs, companies often find> that people are 
seeking out the opening before they post it.>> Patrice - Look at 
what happened over the previous years. In 1999> corporations spent wildly 
on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't> occur because of the 
tireless efforts of I.T. people, the seniorexecutives> felt the money 
was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally> declined, the 
dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are> just about to 
come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant> dot-com 
spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how muchdevelopment> 
work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work> 
yet?>> Dennis Williams> DBA> Lifetouch, Inc.> 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 
AM> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L>>> I 
don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although> 
that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use> 
newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for> 
technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to 
dotheir> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  
I've seen this> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN 
area over the past> couple of years.  Most of these companies also 
provide e-mail service that> sends you an email when a job is posted that 
meets your specs.  So, why> waste your time on newspaper ads that 
only appear every Sunday?>> My $0.02 worth,>> Ken 
Janusz, CPIM>>> - Original Message -> To: 
"Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM>>> > I've been 
keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,> 
two> > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now 
I tendto> > see one or two, or none.> >> > For 
a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they> 
still> > do that or how successful they now are.> >> 
> The market has really shrunk in two years!> >> > There 
can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  
Itmust> be> > a reduction in demand because companies are 
not making biginfrastructure> > changes anymore.> 
>> > Patrice.> > --> > Please see the official 
ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net> 
> --> > Author: Boivin, Patrice J> >   INET: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Fat City Network 
Services    -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com> > San Diego, 
California    -- Mailing list and web 
hosting services> > 
-> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message> 
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in> 
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L> > 
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may> 
> also send the HELP command for other information (like 
subscribing).> >> >>> --> Please see 
the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net> --> 
Author: KENNETH JANUSZ>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>> 
Fat City Network Services    -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com> San Diego, 
California    -- Mailing list and web 
hosting services> 
-> To 
REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message> to: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in> the 
message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L> (or the name of 
mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may> also send the 
HELP command for other information (like subscribing).> --> Please 
see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net> --> 
Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS>   INET: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Fat City Netw

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Joe Testa]

I'm in

Wun Hung Lo

Orr, Steve wrote:

Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual host that redirects to your own operations. Adopt pseudonymns with ethnic sounding names reflecting the ISP overseas address. A good place to setup shop would be someplace like Montana. Anyone want to join me in this venture?

Steve, er uh, Gerhardt Mohammad Lee Kim,



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Tim,

	I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs! Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the outsourcing of application development to another physical location then necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas, it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 

Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always 
advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than 
available candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
their positions. When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
companies often find that people are seeking out the opening before 
they post it.

Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe 
didn't occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the 
senior executives felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would 
have naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
wild. I think we are just about to come out of the natural down cycle 
due to the extravagant dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing 
articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has 
anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions 
(although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the 
internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most 
of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email 
when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste your time 
on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?

My $0.02 worth,

Ken Janusz, CPIM

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
   

I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job 
postings,
 

two
   

years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I 
tend to see one or two, or none.

For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if 
they
 

still
   

do that or how successful they now are.

The market has really shrunk in two years!

There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It 
must
 

be
   

a reduction in demand because companies are not making big 
infrastructure changes anymore.

Patrice.
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Boivin, Patrice J
 INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting service

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

If India and Pakistan go to war. Or, China tries to retake Taiwan you will
see this reverse real fast.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:14 AM


> Tim,
>
> I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be
moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.
>
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
> Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
> outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
> necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How
> many huge application development projects do you see in the US these
days?
>
> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
overseas,
> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
> did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>
> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
> you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>
>
>
> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than
available
> > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their
positions.
> > When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> >
> > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> > yet?
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service
that
> > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> >> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> > two
> >> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
to
> >> see one or two, or none.
> >>
> >> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> > still
> >> do that or how successful they now are.
> >>
> >> The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >>
> >> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
> > be
> >> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> >> changes anymore.
> >>
> >> Patrice.
> >> --
> >> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> >> --
> >> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> >> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> >> -
> >> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
> fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
> India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter 
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et 
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs 
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the 
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I 
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect 
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> > positions (although
> > > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use
> > > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, 
> > etc. to do
> > their
> > > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've 
> > seen this
> > > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area 
> > over the past
> > > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide 
> > e-mail service that
> > > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your 
> > specs.  So, why
> > > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> > >
> > > My $0.02 worth,
> > >
> > > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA 
> > job postings,
> > > two
> > > > year

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Nelson, Allan]

Sturegeon's Law - 99% of everything is crap.

I happen to think that King George is better than Boy Bill but political
preference is like art apprciation.

Allan

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Allan,

Regrettably that "average collection of greedy, stupid
executives" are also the politicians we have to deal with as well.  Just
take a look at King George & his greedy deputy Chaney.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:49 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One of the truly dog eat dog aspects of this is that the Indians, in
some areas, are unable to compete with the Chinese and so they
themselves are being outsourced.  

I don't think any amount of complaining from DBA ranks will make the
slightest bit of difference to the average collection of greedy, stupid
executives that are pervasive in industry.  If business people ever had
ethics that extended beyond profit margins they certainly show no
evidence of that today.  And Sturgeon's law shows that you are likely to
be dealing with the least competent greedy people.

I'm afflicted by a sensitivity to historical irony.  In the 60's and
70's the literature complained that corporate executives had
insufficient incentives to perform well because their compensation did
not vary with the corporation's stock performance.  In addition, there
was general consensus that accounting staff were too conservative to
meet the creative financing requirements of modern corporations. We
certainly changed all that.  Declining emphasis on character aligned
with stock based compensation plans and "creative" MBAs in CFO slots
certainly did produce some interesting corporate performance.  I live
and work in Houston and the examples I have in mind are Enron, Dynergy,
Reliant..

I suspect that the only thing that will moderate this is some expensive
offshore project failures that cause executive blood to be shed.  The
remarks in another post about the cultural problems inherent in turning
specs into good applications without end-user input and testing are
right on target.  Unfortunately, it will be years before academia
catches on.

Allan

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:09 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


When I worked for Oracle's custom development group I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350 consultants (150 from
Oracle). They had a number of foreign consultants on the project.  About
1 in 10 had technical skills that were above mediocre, but they worked
cheap.  The code they produced was a mess and we at Oracle wondered how
much time / money would have to be spent after the fact to clean up what
the company got on the cheap.  You get what you pay for.  I have dealt
with offshore technical Oracle staff and have found them to be cheap in
cost but very poor overall in the quality of what they delivered.
Companies will wake up to this sooner or later.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:59 AM


> 
>
> > But now I keep seeing
> > articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has

> > anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>
> Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject.  So
> far,
no one has come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs
in-house. At the gut level it 'feels' like we should keep the jobs
in-house and that would be an overall benefit to the economy, too.
However, the financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US
based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The
money ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW,
a 75K US position would be for a junior DBA that is actually getting
35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions
> > (although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use newspaper ads anymore. They are using the 
> > internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
> > Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
> > own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
> > Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most

> > of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an
> > email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste
> > your time on newspaper ads that only 

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Orr, Steve]

I'm ideologically opposed to almost anything that obstructs free trade,
even if it directly affects my personal economy, income and career. It's
a global economy and other industries (e.g. auto mfgrs., textiles,
agriculture, etc.) have had to adapt or cope so why shouldn't we? What
makes us think we're so special or should be exempt? If someone can do
your job better and cheaper than you is it their fault? The best
protection is not in trade legislation but in being competitive and
providing a good service with value. If your job merely involves
"interfacing" with computers via an online session then it really
doesn't matter where you are. That can be both good and bad depending on
your circumstance.


Steve Orr, disciple of Adam Smith...

Virtually present in Bozeman, MT but actually operating from my laptop
via wireless connection while sunning at the beach on a heretofore
undisclosed Carribean Isle.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:34 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that 
> has fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's 
> done in India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs,
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have 
> > > naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
> > > wild. I
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available
> > positions (although
> > > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large
> > companies don't use
> > > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially 
> > > fo

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Jesse, Rich]

I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.

Rich

Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter 
> role) you would
> actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> KENNETH JANUSZ
> Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Dennis:
> 
> With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et 
> al.  I don't
> think companies are very included to do this because of 
> security concerns
> and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
>  It's not a
> good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> 
> 
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs 
> aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> than available
> > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> their positions.
> > When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> companies often find
> > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> >
> > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the 
> catastrophe didn't
> > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> executives
> > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I 
> think we are
> > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> extravagant
> > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> development
> > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect 
> Oracle DBA work
> > yet?
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> positions (although
> > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> companies don't use
> > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, 
> etc. to do
> their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've 
> seen this
> > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area 
> over the past
> > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide 
> e-mail service that
> > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your 
> specs.  So, why
> > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> > > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA 
> job postings,
> > two
> > > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per 
> week, now I tend
> to
> > > see one or two, or none.
> > >
> > > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't 
> know if they
> > still
> > > do that or how successful they now are.
> > >
> > > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> > >
> > > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for 
> work...  It
> must
> > be
> > > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
> infrastructure
> > > changes anymore.
> > >
> > > Patrice.
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Jesse, Rich
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

Dennis:

With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et al.  I don't
think companies are very included to do this because of security concerns
and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.   It's not a
good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM


> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
>
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet?
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
>
> My $0.02 worth,
>
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
>
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
>
>
> > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
> > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend
to
> > see one or two, or none.
> >
> > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
> > do that or how successful they now are.
> >
> > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >
> > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
> be
> > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> > changes anymore.
> >
> > Patrice.
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> >
> >
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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> the message BODY, include a line

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Nelson Flores]

Well .. that's the "Agreement" part of a Free Trade Agreement ... I think he
added that with his invisible pen and invisible hand ;)

- This Topic had to come up 1 month from when I start looking for work in
California ... kind of depressing to see the US IT job market in such a
sorry state  :S 

Maybe I should move to Beijing instead ;) ...


-Mensaje original-
De: Boivin, Patrice J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Enviado el: jueves, 14 de agosto de 2003 15:20
Para: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Asunto: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

Adam Smith said that government restrictions on free markets was a good
thing, people keep dropping the qualifiers he put in his statements!

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 3:20 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I'm ideologically opposed to almost anything that obstructs free trade,
even if it directly affects my personal economy, income and career. It's
a global economy and other industries (e.g. auto mfgrs., textiles,
agriculture, etc.) have had to adapt or cope so why shouldn't we? What
makes us think we're so special or should be exempt? If someone can do
your job better and cheaper than you is it their fault? The best
protection is not in trade legislation but in being competitive and
providing a good service with value. If your job merely involves
"interfacing" with computers via an online session then it really
doesn't matter where you are. That can be both good and bad depending on
your circumstance.


Steve Orr, disciple of Adam Smith...

Virtually present in Bozeman, MT but actually operating from my laptop
via wireless connection while sunning at the beach on a heretofore
undisclosed Carribean Isle.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:34 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that 
> has fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's 
> done in India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs,
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have 
> > > naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
> > > wild. I
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articl

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Mladen Gogala]

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:45 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


> Dennis:

> With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et al.  I don't
think companies 
> are very included to do 
> this because of security concerns

Companies run MS Windows, regardless of the security concerns.

> and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.   It's not a
> good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.

Well, technically speaking, India is not the whole world. Populationwise,
it's only about 20%.
As far as I know, there is no Indian mob. We have Italian, Irish, Russian,
Chinese, Japanese,
Polish and other gangs, but I've never heard of an Indian gang. So, with
respect to security, you
might be better off in India then anywhere else in the world. You cannot
have Bonnie and Clyde,
Baby face Nelson or machine gun Kelly with the Indian names. Machine gun
Deepak just doesn't
sound right.




Note:
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the 
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otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them 
to be the views of any such entity.
-
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Mladen Gogala
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephen Lee]

No no! Not EDS. That was Ed's.  As in:
"Ed's plumbing, welding, and database admin"
( and "professional dancing")

> -Original Message-
> 
> Didn't the UK outsource their IT function to EDS?
> 
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephen Lee
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephen Lee]

I'm a "senior DBA" (whatever that means), and I do lot of ad hoc scripting
for other people, and I don't get no 75K.  But then, I'm not working for 35K
to 40K either -- except when I was at WorldCom four years ago where I worked
for 44K.  They figured out how to get the best of both worlds: Work the H1
thing so that you bring "overseas" over here for the same price as having it
overseas.  Even then, they still managed to go bankrupt.

> -Original Message-
> a 75K US position would be for a junior 
> DBA that is actually getting
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephen Lee
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Odland, Brad]

The problem is that companies are scrambling to cut costs to keep that
quarterly report looking good. Sometime ago some CEO found that if the
quarterly report looked good he justified getting paid more. So the emphasis
has been year after year to plan for the next quarter. Now that the economy
is tanking how does the CEO make the Q3 report look good...? But cutting
expenses. How do you do that?...get rid of high wage jobs! Hell with making
a better product...that doesn't work any more. We LIKE crap in America!

Frankly outsourcing offshore is going to blow up in corporate America's
face. It is like a turd in gift wrapping paper. Looks good on the outside
but once inside it is not a very pleasant experience. The problem of rising
costs and complexity of IT is not going to be solved by throwing dozens of
cheap programmers from India at it. The real problem is the software
companies that are more about marketing than substance. And Microsoft's game
platform OS that everyone thinks is so effing great. (STOP...don't get me
started...) 


Hey there is an opportunity right there...salvaging all the failed
outsourcing projects

I can see myself now. In a posh conference room. Wild shouting, arms
flailing, fingers pointing...only difference is I'm in India not Illinois or
Wisconsin. I'm being yelled at by two dozen programmers (instead of just two
or three) after I tell them their application is out of scope, out of
control and fails to meet any of the requirements laid out by the client.

Same deal...different location.





-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Odland, Brad
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Mladen Gogala]

Let me guess: MCI-Worldcom, Global Crossing or Enron?

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Jesse, Rich
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:05 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.

Rich

Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
> role) you would
> actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> KENNETH JANUSZ
> Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Dennis:
> 
> With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et
> al.  I don't
> think companies are very included to do this because of 
> security concerns
> and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
>  It's not a
> good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> 
> 
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs
> aren't always
> > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs
> than available
> > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill
> their positions.
> > When there are more candidates than available jobs,
> companies often find
> > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> >
> > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the
> catastrophe didn't
> > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> executives
> > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally 
> > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I
> think we are
> > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the
> extravagant
> > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> development
> > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect
> Oracle DBA work
> > yet?
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available
> positions (although
> > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large
> companies don't use
> > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for 
> > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing,
> etc. to do
> their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've
> seen this
> > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area
> over the past
> > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide
> e-mail service that
> > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your
> specs.  So, why
> > waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> > > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA
> job postings,
> > two
> > > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per
> week, now I tend
> to
> > > see one or two, or none.
> > >
> > > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't
> know if they
> > still
> > > do that or how successful they now are.
> > >
> > > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> > >
> > > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for
> work...  It
> must
> > be
> > > a reduction in demand because companies are 

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?

My $0.02 worth,

Ken Janusz, CPIM


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM


> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
two
> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
> see one or two, or none.
>
> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
still
> do that or how successful they now are.
>
> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>
> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It must
be
> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
> changes anymore.
>
> Patrice.
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>
>

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Joe Testa]

Steve now thats one of the funnier things i've read for a while, that 
will probably work.

joe

Orr, Steve wrote:

Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual host that redirects to your own operations. Adopt pseudonymns with ethnic sounding names reflecting the ISP overseas address. A good place to setup shop would be someplace like Montana. Anyone want to join me in this venture?

Steve, er uh, Gerhardt Mohammad Lee Kim,



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Tim,

	I regret to have to agree with you.  More of the IT jobs are & will be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US operations for one reason or other.  I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.  What we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their wallets.  What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish?  As in save a penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs! Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the outsourcing of application development to another physical location then necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it.  How many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving overseas, it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...



on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 

Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always 
advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than 
available candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
their positions. When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
companies often find that people are seeking out the opening before 
they post it.

Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe 
didn't occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the 
senior executives felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would 
have naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
wild. I think we are just about to come out of the natural down cycle 
due to the extravagant dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing 
articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has 
anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions
(although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the 
internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most 
of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email 
when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste your time 
on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?

My $0.02 worth,

Ken Janusz, CPIM

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
   

I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job
postings,
 

two
   

years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I
tend to see one or two, or none.
For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if
they
 

still
   

do that or how successful they now are.

The market has really shrunk in two years!

There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It
must
 

be
   

a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure changes anymore.
Patrice.
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Boivin, Patrice J
 INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
Sa

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Goulet, Dick]

Allan,

Regrettably that "average collection of greedy, stupid executives" are also 
the politicians we have to deal with as well.  Just take a look at King George & his 
greedy deputy Chaney.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:49 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


One of the truly dog eat dog aspects of this is that the Indians, in
some areas, are unable to compete with the Chinese and so they
themselves are being outsourced.  

I don't think any amount of complaining from DBA ranks will make the
slightest bit of difference to the average collection of greedy, stupid
executives that are pervasive in industry.  If business people ever had
ethics that extended beyond profit margins they certainly show no
evidence of that today.  And Sturgeon's law shows that you are likely to
be dealing with the least competent greedy people.

I'm afflicted by a sensitivity to historical irony.  In the 60's and
70's the literature complained that corporate executives had
insufficient incentives to perform well because their compensation did
not vary with the corporation's stock performance.  In addition, there
was general consensus that accounting staff were too conservative to
meet the creative financing requirements of modern corporations. We
certainly changed all that.  Declining emphasis on character aligned
with stock based compensation plans and "creative" MBAs in CFO slots
certainly did produce some interesting corporate performance.  I live
and work in Houston and the examples I have in mind are Enron, Dynergy,
Reliant..

I suspect that the only thing that will moderate this is some expensive
offshore project failures that cause executive blood to be shed.  The
remarks in another post about the cultural problems inherent in turning
specs into good applications without end-user input and testing are
right on target.  Unfortunately, it will be years before academia
catches on.

Allan

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:09 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


When I worked for Oracle's custom development group I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350 consultants (150 from
Oracle). They had a number of foreign consultants on the project.  About
1 in 10 had technical skills that were above mediocre, but they worked
cheap.  The code they produced was a mess and we at Oracle wondered how
much time / money would have to be spent after the fact to clean up what
the company got on the cheap.  You get what you pay for.  I have dealt
with offshore technical Oracle staff and have found them to be cheap in
cost but very poor overall in the quality of what they delivered.
Companies will wake up to this sooner or later.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:59 AM


> 
>
> > But now I keep seeing
> > articles about how much development work is being sent overseas. Has

> > anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>
> Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject.  So 
> far,
no one has come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs
in-house. At the gut level it 'feels' like we should keep the jobs
in-house and that would be an overall benefit to the economy, too.
However, the financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US
based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The
money ranges I gave are contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW,
a 75K US position would be for a junior DBA that is actually getting
35K-40K and so on up the skill range.
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions 
> > (although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use newspaper ads anymore. They are using the 
> > internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
> > Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their recruiting for them from their 
> > own company web sites.  I've seen this definite shift here in the 
> > Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past couple of years.  Most

> > of these companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an 
> > email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste
> > your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> > > I've been keeping an eye on the 

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Chelur, Jayadas {PBSG}]

Scott Adams has said it all ...

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030803.html


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:20 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I'm ideologically opposed to almost anything that obstructs free trade,
even if it directly affects my personal economy, income and career. It's
a global economy and other industries (e.g. auto mfgrs., textiles,
agriculture, etc.) have had to adapt or cope so why shouldn't we? What
makes us think we're so special or should be exempt? If someone can do
your job better and cheaper than you is it their fault? The best
protection is not in trade legislation but in being competitive and
providing a good service with value. If your job merely involves
"interfacing" with computers via an online session then it really
doesn't matter where you are. That can be both good and bad depending on
your circumstance.


Steve Orr, disciple of Adam Smith...

Virtually present in Bozeman, MT but actually operating from my laptop
via wireless connection while sunning at the beach on a heretofore
undisclosed Carribean Isle.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:34 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that 
> has fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's 
> done in India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs,
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have 
> > > naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
> > > wild. I
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available
> > posit

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Joe Testa]

Steve taking that a bit further, you're important enough to be doing 
wireless email in caribbean, remind me to NOT be that way IF i ever grow 
up :)

joe

Orr, Steve wrote:

I'm ideologically opposed to almost anything that obstructs free trade,
even if it directly affects my personal economy, income and career. It's
a global economy and other industries (e.g. auto mfgrs., textiles,
agriculture, etc.) have had to adapt or cope so why shouldn't we? What
makes us think we're so special or should be exempt? If someone can do
your job better and cheaper than you is it their fault? The best
protection is not in trade legislation but in being competitive and
providing a good service with value. If your job merely involves
"interfacing" with computers via an online session then it really
doesn't matter where you are. That can be both good and bad depending on
your circumstance.
Steve Orr, disciple of Adam Smith...

Virtually present in Bozeman, MT but actually operating from my laptop
via wireless connection while sunning at the beach on a heretofore
undisclosed Carribean Isle.


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:34 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
This makes me puke.

- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM

 

I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that 
has fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's 
done in India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.

Rich

Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
   

-Original Message-
From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,

With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
Mark

-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Dennis:

With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et
al.  I don't
think companies are very included to do this because of 
security concerns
and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
It's not a
good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.

Ken

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
 

Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs
   

aren't always
 

advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs
   

than available
 

candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill
   

their positions.
 

When there are more candidates than available jobs,
   

companies often find
 

that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.

Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the
   

catastrophe didn't
 

occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
   

executives
 

felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have 
naturally declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went 
wild. I
   

think we are
 

just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the
   

extravagant
 

dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
   

development
 

work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect
   

Oracle DBA work
 

yet?

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I don't think it has as much to do with no available
   

positions (although
 

that is part of the answer) as most medium to large
   

companies don't use
 

newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially 
for technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing,
   

etc. to do
their
 

recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've
   

seen this
 

definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area
   

over the past
 

couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide
   

e-mail service that
 

sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your
   

specs.  So, why
 

waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?

My $0.02 worth,

Ken Janusz, CPIM

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August

RE: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephane Faroult]

>Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your
>upbeat attitude is
>encouraging. I think you've made a good point that
>jobs aren't always
>advertised. Another point is that when there are
>more jobs than available
>candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to
>fill their positions.
>When there are more candidates than available jobs,
>companies often find
>that people are seeking out the opening before they
>post it.
>
>Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous
>years. In 1999
>corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when
>the catastrophe didn't
>occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T.
>people, the senior executives
>felt the money was wasted). Then when spending
>would have naturally
>declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went
>wild. I think we are
>just about to come out of the natural down cycle
>due to the extravagant
>dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles
>about how much development
>work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that
>affect Oracle DBA work
>yet? 
> 
>Dennis Williams
>DBA
>Lifetouch, Inc.
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Dennis,

   Concerning your last question, a young indian DBA friend of mine in Bangalore was 
complaining about the night shifts and all the donkey work Indians have to perform to 
keep a 24x7 watch on US databases ... I would personally tend to use timezones to get 
senior DBAs from all around the world ready to help at normal business hours but I 
guess that this will have to wait until costs in India raise to sufficient levels - 
which in the end will happen (take a look at Hong Kong and Singapore).
   I indeed believe that the market for DBAs is going to shrink somewhat. As someone 
pointed out, big, pharaonic projects are much less common today than they were a few 
years back. A 'mature' database running stable applications and that you don't want to 
upgrade hardly requires on a daily or weekly basis anything to do that you cannot put 
in a crontab file. Moreover, the official Oracle gospel is of course that new versions 
require less and less administration - a claim which provokes more sarcastic comments 
on this list than in the upper management levels.
However, the amount of data which people are willing to store seems to be joyfully 
outpacing Moore's law, and I don't see the trend losing momentum anytime soon. Expect 
more work related to architecture, replication (the days of exp backups have long been 
over) and of course performance tuning. It's probably the junior part of the market 
which is going to bear the brunt of the slow-down. Till the pendulum swings back and 
makes outsourcing out of fashion, by which time I hope that India and China will 
locally provide enough work for their IT people, which is more than likely.

My 0.02 EUR.

Regards,

Stephane Faroult
Oriole
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephane Faroult
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Boivin, Patrice J]

Didn't the UK outsource their IT function to EDS?

Patrice.

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:45 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


You should try the UK. 
The government seems to be actively encouraging this sort of thing. I think
they see short term gains to be made from cheap labour. That seems very
short-sighted to me but it's typ[ical of the set of losers we're saddled
with.



-Original Message-
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:34
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This makes me puke.


- Original Message - 
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:04 AM


> I know of one Fortune 50 company (US) that has a local division that has
> fired all of their programmers at least at that location.  All's done in
> India with e-mail, web, and teleconfrencing.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Jesse   System/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
> > 
> > 
> > Ken,
> > 
> > With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter 
> > role) you would
> > actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > KENNETH JANUSZ
> > Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Dennis:
> > 
> > With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et 
> > al.  I don't
> > think companies are very included to do this because of 
> > security concerns
> > and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB.  
> >  It's not a
> > good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
> > 
> > 
> > > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> > > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs 
> > aren't always
> > > advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> > than available
> > > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill 
> > their positions.
> > > When there are more candidates than available jobs, 
> > companies often find
> > > that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> > >
> > > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> > > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the 
> > catastrophe didn't
> > > occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
> > executives
> > > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> > > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I 
> > think we are
> > > just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> > extravagant
> > > dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
> > development
> > > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect 
> > Oracle DBA work
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > Dennis Williams
> > > DBA
> > > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think it has as much to do with no available 
> > positions (although
> > > that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use
> > > newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
> > > technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, 
> > etc. to do
> > their
> > > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've 
> > seen this
> > > definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area 
> > over the past
> > > couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide 
> > e-mail service that
> > > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your 
> > specs.  So, why
> > > waste your time on newspaper 

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Nelson, Allan]

At least some parts were.  We use OPM here and it was a conversion of
GEMMS done in India.

Allan
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:05 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Wasn't Oracle 11i developed outside the USA?  The initial
implementations were a real mess.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM


> Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects 
> DBAs! Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and 
> the outsourcing of application development to another physical 
> location then necessarily outsources the systems/database 
> administration with it.  How many huge application development 
> projects do you see in the US these
days?
>
> There is no "cherry picking".  The IT industry in the US is moving
overseas,
> it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing 
> sector did, for obvious reasons.  There is lighter equipment to move.
>
> It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping 
> when you are treading water.  Until your feet touch bottom...
>
>
>
> on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is 
> > encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't 
> > always advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs 
> > than
available
> > candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their
positions.
> > When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often 
> > find that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
> >
> > Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999 
> > corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe 
> > didn't occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the 
> > senior
executives
> > felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally 
> > declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we

> > are just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the 
> > extravagant dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about 
> > how much
development
> > work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA 
> > work yet?
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions 
> > (although that is part of the answer) as most medium to large 
> > companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the 
> > internet (especially for technical jobs) and are signed up with 
> > Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen 
> > this definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over

> > the past couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide 
> > e-mail service
that
> > sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, 
> > why waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> >> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job 
> >> postings,
> > two
> >> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I 
> >> tend
to
> >> see one or two, or none.
> >>
> >> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if 
> >> they
> > still
> >> do that or how successful they now are.
> >>
> >> The market has really shrunk in two years!
> >>
> >> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  
> >> It
must
> > be
> >> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
infrastructure
> >> changes anymore.
> >>
> >> Patrice.
> >> --
> >> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> >> --
> >> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> >> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting
services
> >> ---
> >> --
> >> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> >> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> >> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> >> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> >> also send the HELP command for other information (like
subscribing).
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Tim Gorman
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Goulet, Dick]

Considering the defecits theur running up, that sure does not seem to bother them, or 
is that just the "stupid" part, as in "we will not burden our childern" part of last 
years State of the Union.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:49 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



But lower paying jobs mean lower tax revenues.  Uh oh!

> -Original Message-
> 
>   Regrettably that "average collection of greedy, stupid 
> executives" are also the politicians we have to deal with as 
> well.  Just take a look at King George & his greedy deputy Chaney.
> 
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
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  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephen Lee]

Back in the days when I used to do configuration management (among other
things), I saw which programmers were producing what code and found that a
"good" programmer would average about 10 - 20 times the amount of a
"typical" programmer.  And a "kick ass" programmer would produce about 100
times the code everyone else; and the code is better quality.

I have seen that the most important factor in development costs are the
ability of the management to build a staff of programmers who are in the
"good" to "kick ass" range -- a process that seems to take about 3 to 5
years depending on the job/employee market.  But my experience has been rare
that management understands that, in terms of cost per line of code, the
best programmers are the most cost-effective programmers.

The best programmer I ever saw usually produced about 100 times the output
of the rest of the entire project staff; and he was working on the most
difficult parts of the application.  He also packed both his upper and lower
gums with Copenhagen snuff, smoked cigarettes, drank coffee, and wore a
nicotine patch.  I'm not kidding; we're talking wired to the max.
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
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  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephen Lee]

But lower paying jobs mean lower tax revenues.  Uh oh!

> -Original Message-
> 
>   Regrettably that "average collection of greedy, stupid 
> executives" are also the politicians we have to deal with as 
> well.  Just take a look at King George & his greedy deputy Chaney.
> 
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephen Lee
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Pardee, Roy E]

Companies will wake up--or as likely--the offshore techies' skills will grow with 
experience & their work product will get better.  

Hopefully they'll also raise their prices at that point, tho they'll still have to 
entice companies to deal with the geographic/time/cultural differences so I'd guess 
there was a limit on how much they can do.

Is anyone in IT immune to this trend?  Maybe business analysts, due to the 
face-to-face they have to have w/the principles of the business?

Cheers,

-Roy

Roy Pardee
Programmer/Analyst/DBA
SWFPAC Lockheed Martin IT
Extension 8487

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:09 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


When I worked for Oracle's custom development group I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350 consultants (150 from Oracle).
They had a number of foreign consultants on the project.  About 1 in 10 had
technical skills that were above mediocre, but they worked cheap.  The code
they produced was a mess and we at Oracle wondered how much time / money
would have to be spent after the fact to clean up what the company got on
the cheap.  You get what you pay for.  I have dealt with offshore technical
Oracle staff and have found them to be cheap in cost but very poor overall
in the quality of what they delivered.  Companies will wake up to this
sooner or later.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:59 AM


> 
>
> > But now I keep seeing
> > articles about how much development work is being sent
> > overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>
> Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject.  So far,
no one has come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs in-house.
At the gut level it 'feels' like we should keep the jobs in-house and that
would be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the financial
argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US based DBAs or pay 45K -
80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The money ranges I gave are
contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW, a 75K US position would be
for a junior DBA that is actually getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill
range.
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available
> > positions (although that is part of the answer) as most
> > medium to large companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.
> > They are using the internet (especially for technical jobs)
> > and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've
> > seen this definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul,
> > MN area over the past couple of years.  Most of these
> > companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email
> > when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste
> > your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> > > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job
> > > postings,
> > two
> > > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week,
> > now I tend
> > > to see one or two, or none.
> > >
> > > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't
> > know if they
> > still
> > > do that or how successful they now are.
> > >
> > > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> > >
> > > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for
> > work...  It
> > > must
> > be
> > > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
> > > infrastructure changes anymore.
> > >
> > > Patrice.
> > > --
> > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > > --
> > > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> > >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web
> > hosting services
> > >
> > -
> > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the
> > > name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send
> > > the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --

Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[KENNETH JANUSZ]

When I worked for Oracle's custom development group I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350 consultants (150 from Oracle).
They had a number of foreign consultants on the project.  About 1 in 10 had
technical skills that were above mediocre, but they worked cheap.  The code
they produced was a mess and we at Oracle wondered how much time / money
would have to be spent after the fact to clean up what the company got on
the cheap.  You get what you pay for.  I have dealt with offshore technical
Oracle staff and have found them to be cheap in cost but very poor overall
in the quality of what they delivered.  Companies will wake up to this
sooner or later.

Ken


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:59 AM


> 
>
> > But now I keep seeing
> > articles about how much development work is being sent
> > overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
>
> Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject.  So far,
no one has come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs in-house.
At the gut level it 'feels' like we should keep the jobs in-house and that
would be an overall benefit to the economy, too.  However, the financial
argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US based DBAs or pay 45K -
80K for offshore talent is hard to beat.  The money ranges I gave are
contract employee/job shop type of quotes, IOW, a 75K US position would be
for a junior DBA that is actually getting 35K-40K and so on up the skill
range.
>
> v/r
>
> Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
> Data Services Manager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
> >
> > Dennis Williams
> > DBA
> > Lifetouch, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I don't think it has as much to do with no available
> > positions (although that is part of the answer) as most
> > medium to large companies don't use newspaper ads anymore.
> > They are using the internet (especially for technical jobs)
> > and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
> > recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've
> > seen this definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul,
> > MN area over the past couple of years.  Most of these
> > companies also provide e-mail service that sends you an email
> > when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why waste
> > your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
> >
> > My $0.02 worth,
> >
> > Ken Janusz, CPIM
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
> >
> >
> > > I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job
> > > postings,
> > two
> > > years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week,
> > now I tend
> > > to see one or two, or none.
> > >
> > > For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't
> > know if they
> > still
> > > do that or how successful they now are.
> > >
> > > The market has really shrunk in two years!
> > >
> > > There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for
> > work...  It
> > > must
> > be
> > > a reduction in demand because companies are not making big
> > > infrastructure changes anymore.
> > >
> > > Patrice.
> > > --
> > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > > --
> > > Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> > >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web
> > hosting services
> > >
> > -
> > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the
> > > name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send
> > > the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: KENNETH JANUSZ
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
> > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
> > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
> > from).  You may also send the HELP command for other
> > information (like subscribing).
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://w

RE: Re: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[Stephane Faroult]

>When I worked for Oracle's custom development group
>I worked on a large
>conversion project that employed about 350
>consultants (150 from Oracle).
>They had a number of foreign consultants on the
>project.  About 1 in 10 had
>technical skills that were above mediocre, but they
>worked cheap.  The code
>they produced was a mess and we at Oracle wondered
>how much time / money
>would have to be spent after the fact to clean up
>what the company got on
>the cheap.  You get what you pay for.  I have dealt
>with offshore technical
>Oracle staff and have found them to be cheap in
>cost but very poor overall
>in the quality of what they delivered.  Companies
>will wake up to this
>sooner or later.
>
>Ken

I basically think like you but I don't believe that offshore programmers are 
*inherently* worse than onshore programmers. I have lately been reviewing European as 
well as Indian code and in all honesty it was harder to tell which one was worse than 
the other; the 1 in 10 ratio you mention is more like a general rule. Productivity may 
be different though, but I hardly think positively of churning out bad code faster. I 
rather attribute the poor quality of some offshore developments to two factors, and in 
this order :
1 - It's dreadfully difficult to produce good code when you are far from your 
end-users. Specs are rarely perfect, and when all of your energy is absorbed by trying 
to make sense of what you are coding, quality comes a distant second.
2 - Cultural factors make it difficult for somebody raised in Asia and working in Asia 
to improve on the sometimes shoddy specs provided. Language can be a barrier, 
pseudo-code is slavishly turned into actual code (hmmm all those nice PL/SQL cursor 
loops), and if the management asks for something then it must be followed - you cannot 
make management lose face. I have recently seen a (grossly) grammatically incorrect 
error message in the specs popping up exactly the same in the code.

Regards,

Stephane Faroult
Oriole
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephane Faroult
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.

Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior executives
felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much development
work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
yet? 
 
Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
newspaper ads anymore.  They are using the internet (especially for
technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
recruiting for them from their own company web sites.  I've seen this
definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
couple of years.  Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs.  So, why
waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?

My $0.02 worth,

Ken Janusz, CPIM


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM


> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
two
> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
> see one or two, or none.
>
> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
still
> do that or how successful they now are.
>
> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>
> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work...  It must
be
> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
> changes anymore.
>
> Patrice.
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
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>
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