from:"rem melissa bruijn"

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences



Judy - I am so sorry that you received no validation for your experience.  The comments re. having a healthy baby can be so hurtful.  I found they added guilt and self-doubt to the horrible way I was feeling. ie "How can it be that I am not happy?".  And you are right - when does the mother get healthy?  24 years is a long time - I am just so sorry.

Melissa



--
From: "Judy Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 8:07 PM


You are so right about the validation. All I got after 2 CS for 'Failure to Progress' (ob impatience) was 'you should be thankful you have a healthy baby'. What about me, don't I get a chance to be healthy! It took about 24 years to come to terms with it. 

Judy


From: "rem & melissa bruijn" 
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences 
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:52:43 +0800 
MArgie - just wanted to say THANK YOU for these words. The biggest thing I 
am finding for anyone who has been traumatised by their birth experience is 
GETTING VALIDATION. 
Everytime someone says "It is not ok", as you have, it lets us hear that our 
pain is valid. We usually hear "but you're fine and the baby is fine" 
whenever we mention our difficulties to others. Hearing "It is not ok" also 
gives us permission to grieve, for it admits that there IS another way that 
IS ok...and we have missed out on it. It is important to acknowledge this. 
And the way you wrote about having had the honour of supporting traumatised 
women on their new journey...that just fills me with hope, and gratitude 
that there are people like you out there. Thank you, 
Melissa 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] what to say to traumatised woman WAS hurtful birth experiences

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] what to say to traumatised woman WAS hurtful birth experiences




For anyone who is interested, there is a great list on Victorious Birth.com of "what to say to someone who has had a traumatic c/sec".  The direct link is :

 http://www.victoriousbirth.com/whatdoyousay...htm

I wish I'd found it when I most needed it - not 3 years later.   It outlines pretty much exactly what I needed to hear.  MAybe except for "What would you do differently?", as usually the mother has done everything within her own base of understanding.

And what would I do differently???   Be WAY more educated and Birth with a midwife I knew and trusted for starters.

Melissa

--
From: "Judy Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 8:07 PM



Judy


From: "rem & melissa bruijn" 
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences 
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:52:43 +0800 
MArgie - just wanted to say THANK YOU for these words. The biggest thing I 
am finding for anyone who has been traumatised by their birth experience is 
GETTING VALIDATION. 
Everytime someone says "It is not ok", as you have, it lets us hear that our 
pain is valid. We usually hear "but you're fine and the baby is fine" 
whenever we mention our difficulties to others. Hearing "It is not ok" also 
gives us permission to grieve, for it admits that there IS another way that 
IS ok...and we have missed out on it. It is important to acknowledge this. 
And the way you wrote about having had the honour of supporting traumatised 
women on their new journey...that just fills me with hope, and gratitude 
that there are people like you out there. Thank you, 
Melissa 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences

Margie - what a beautiful story about your friend's courage and strength.

And re those women who say "I've got the baby - that's what matters" and
clamp down...I know what you mean about not knowing how to respond.

I know I clung desperately to my baby, willing everything to "all be ok".
While in hospital post-birth, I literally was ACTING the whole time - every
smile, every bit of casual banter, every lively comment, was an ACT while on
the inside I was breaking up into tiny pieces.  I was waiting for someone,
anyone, to say, "Yes - that was HARD."  But instead, I felt
like I had failed, and that everyone else was "better" at birth than I was.

I guess I went into "survival mode" because I had a new baby to care for, a
husband going back to work in a week and no family in NSW (where we were).

Anyway, I think just letting women know that THEY MATTER as well as their
babies, is wonderful, Margie.  It sounds like you are doing a lot to support
them.  And even if they are not ready - at least they know you are there.

Melissa







--
>From: Margie Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 2:00 PM
>

> Hi Melissa,
>
> Thanks for this message.Your words will continue to keep me open to
> listening to more tales of hurt while I also learn how to better advocate
> for women I'm supporting.
>
>  What I find really hard to know  how to respond to is when women
> themselves say 'I've got the baby - that's what matters' while they are
> very obviously traumatised and clamp down on the birth topic. Some gentle
> comment,  but one which indicates that a well baby is NOT the only
> desirable result of a birth and an offer to listen down the track seems all
> I can do. And this hurts me too!
>
> On this note, I have a friend who had a 'bad' birth in 1961. She had
> another baby in 1969 but didn't get any pregnancy care until she was 7 1/2
> months pregnant because she was so much in denial about it and fearful of
> the birth.  She took herself to a woman GP who had had 8 children herself
> at that time and helped her ease her panic with a breathing technique. Well
> my friend  swears by 'the breathing'.  Her story is that her waters broke,
> she began contracting and she stayed well away from the hospital - walking
> through Lane Cove parkland, visiting friends around and about and then when
> they did get to the hospital, at her husband's begging, she refused to go
> in until she felt sure the baby was about to be born. She staggered in, the
> midwife took one look at her, ushered her into a room where the baby was
> born immediately, the birth missed by the father who was getting into his
> required hospital garb. Back then the midwives were congratulating her ,
> saying, 'well done, we saw !
> !
> you out there on the grass, we knew what you were doing'.
>
> Margie
>
>
> At Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:52:43 +0800,
> rem & melissa bruijn ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> MArgie - just wanted to say THANK YOU for these words.  The
>> biggest thing I
>> am finding for anyone who has been traumatised by their birth
>> experience is
>> GETTING VALIDATION.
>>
>> Everytime someone says "It is not ok", as you have, it lets us
>> hear that our
>> pain is valid.   We  usually hear "but you're fine and the baby is
>> fine"
>> whenever we mention our difficulties to others.  Hearing "It is
>> not ok" also
>> gives us permission to grieve, for it admits that there IS another
>> way that
>> IS ok...and we have missed out on it.  It is important to
>> acknowledge this.
>>
>> And the way you wrote about having had the honour of supporting
>> traumatised
>> women on their new journey...that just fills me with hope, and
>> gratitude
>> that there are people like you out there.  Thank you,
>>
>> Melissa
>>
>> --
>> >From: Margie Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences
>> >Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 4:21 PM
>> >
>>
>> > My heart goes out to everyone who is sharing or has had soul and
>> body
>> > hurting births. It is not ok.  And must change. I have had the
>> honour of
>> > supporting a number of women who have previously been
>> traumatised by
>> > caesareans (or other things)  and it is something so special to
>> be part of
>> > their new journey.
>> >
>> > love and the greatest respect to yo

Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences



And that is such a gift :  to gain a new career, a new empathy and be able to help other women.  (I feel I am on the verge of something similar.)  THe women who have had you as their carer should consider themselves lucky to have someone so insightful.

--
From: "Judy Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:21 AM




What helped me heal was knowing that I probably would not have been a midwife, or maybe not so caring, if it was not for that. I know I have managed to help some women avoid what I had. 

Judy


Judy Chapman 
Midwife 
07 47490764 
From: "Aviva Sheb'a" 
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: 
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences 
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:35:18 +1030 
Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiencesit's tragic that this is typical of rapees too. I think we ought to celebrate every woman who makes the steps to even begin to heal; and let's celebrate every step along the way. 
love to you all, 
aviva 
- Original Message - 
From: rem & melissa bruijn 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences 
Judy - I am so sorry that you received no validation for your experience. The comments re. having a healthy baby can be so hurtful. I found they added guilt and self-doubt to the horrible way I was feeling. ie "How can it be that I am not happy?". And you are right - when does the mother get healthy? 24 years is a long time - I am just so sorry. 
Melissa 
-- 
From: "Judy Chapman" 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences 
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 8:07 PM 
You are so right about the validation. All I got after 2 CS for 'Failure to Progress' (ob impatience) was 'you should be thankful you have a healthy baby'. What about me, don't I get a chance to be healthy! It took about 24 years to come to terms with it. 
Judy 
From: "rem & melissa bruijn" 
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] hurtful birth experiences 
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:52:43 +0800 
MArgie - just wanted to say THANK YOU for these words. The biggest thing I 
am finding for anyone who has been traumatised by their birth experience is 
GETTING VALIDATION. 
Everytime someone says "It is not ok", as you have, it lets us hear that our 
pain is valid. We usually hear "but you're fine and the baby is fine" 
whenever we mention our difficulties to others. Hearing "It is not ok" also 
gives us permission to grieve, for it admits that there IS another way that 
IS ok...and we have missed out on it. It is important to acknowledge this. 
And the way you wrote about having had the honour of supporting traumatised 
women on their new journey...that just fills me with hope, and gratitude 
that there are people like you out there. Thank you, 
Melissa 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Proved 'im wrong

2002-11-18 Thread rem & melissa bruijn

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Proved 'im wrong

Wow, Judy - you go, girl!  This woman will probably never know how lucky she was to have met you.  But we know.  You may be proud of the woman, and with good cause, but I feel so much admiration for YOU for standing up for this woman's rights and providing her with information and trusting in her body, and just being there for her.  Well done.

Melissa
--
From: "Judy Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Proved 'im wrong
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 8:16 PM

I am so proud of the woman I looked after today. 20 yr old primi and when I took over her care she had been in for a couple of hours. Full of fear and at 38+ weeks with ruptured membranes. Fully believing she could not have her baby naturally as her doctor (GP) from way out of town had told her that her pelvis was too small and she would definately need a CS. 
I spent time talking to her to find out what she REALLY wanted and told of the possibilities, I told the OB what I had said and she backed it up. Tenatively this woman agreed to try for a natural birth. Her labour was not without interference because of the fear but the end result was a normal birth with a midwife and proud and happy parents. 
Judy

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Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and the power of the mind

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and the power of the mind

Fear must have an impact on labour length. Because fear produces adrenalin, and adrenalin inhibits the oxytocin, which is the hormone that works to make the uterus contract. In the Active Birth classes I did in Sydney, we learned that you get a burst of adrenalin at the start of each contraction, and that if the adrenalin is not dealt with then the contraction will be less efficient, as the adrenalin is inhibiting the release of the oxytocin. The idea is that the adrenalin is there to make us "wake up" and attend to the contraction, but because we usually associate pain with fear we feel the adrenalin as something to "run away" from. So if the contractions are less efficient, that HAs to affect labour length.

That explains to me why labours often slow or stop on the journey to hospital : because we are mammals and our bodies are so clever that if they detect an "unsafe situation" they are designed to release adrenalin which halts early labour so we can get somewhere safe. (or to deliver the baby fast if further in labour - but I am not sure of the hormones for that one!)

Especially when you look at the work of Michel Odent, where he noted that, when left to themselves, women seek out a quiet, dark corner to birth - I guess where they feel safe, and the adrenalin can be released, and the oxytocin can do its stuff. Which then asks Qs about how can women find this dark private place to birth in a hospital situation? And how can we help them to feel MORE safe in a hospital situation, where they are out of their comfort zone?

And personally, my own labour changed immediately when there was a staff change - and the new midwife was a complete stranger, and very blunt and disinterested. I went from feeling supported to feeling abandoned (and very frightened), and the effects on my labour were marked. I hear this again and again from women I speak to who have had traumatic births - they were just so frightened.

Also does anyone have comments on "is simply providing information alleviate fear?" When women are 'empowered through information' is this really all that needs to be done to empower, or does faith have an important role to play?

I believe "knowledge is power", but that EMpowerment comes from knowledge and SUPPORT. A woman might have all this new knowledge to support her needs (esp for a vbac) but if she has no support, she may find it hard to feel empowered with this information. By support I guess I mean : someone to share the info with and keep going over it, and discussing how the info brings up issues from the past birth, and what this info means to her as a woman, and someone WHo BELIEVES IN THIS WOMAN and in all women's innate ability to birth their babies. I guess what I am saying is that the info has to be assimilated and supported for a woman to find strength and courage to act on the information.

Does the faith or trust of those around the birthing women have an impact on her empowerment?

I believe, and read in a lot of sources, that we are more "open" to EVERYTHING when we are birthing - we are literally "opening up" our minds and bodies in birth. So it stands to reason for me, then, that how we are perceived by the people around us as we birth is vitally important, as we are more open to every attitude that comes our way. How can the birthing woman stay empowered if no-one arounds her believes she can do it?

Just my 20c worth! You have touched on some topics I am very interested in!

Melissa

Re: [ozmidwifery] adrenaline in labour WAS birth and the power of the mind

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] adrenaline in labour WAS birth and the power of the mind



--
From: "Denise Hynd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I have not heard of burst of adrenaline with each contraction nor can I see the physiological sense of such.
Rather when a woman is in labour the hormones that drive it are midbrain in origin that is subconscious, primitive the need is to let go of the conscious work and tune into the baby and body.


Hi, Denise -
I got the information about the burst of adrenaline from the classes I did with Julia Sundin, who has a book published called "Face to Face With Childbirth".  She is a Sydney physiotherapist and ran Active Birth classes.  According to Julia a contraction can consist of two parts 1. fight/flight (adrenaline) and 2. Flow State (Oxytocin).  THe first 3-5 seconds are like the start of a race and put you on alert, and is designed to wake us up - not frighten us.  She says that the fight/flight response is designed to last for a short time, and that the adrenaline helps to supply us with Energy (converting amino acids to glucose) for the contraction, and says this is why women don't need to be aerobically fit to labour.  She believes that in active labour, telling a woman to relax into the adrenaline won't work, as if we don't take action, we will get exhausted, our blood sugar level drops, as the adrenaline takes over.   

Julia says that adrenaline is "user-friendly" in labour : it calls us to action and is designed to help, and gives us extra energy and ability.  She believes it can create instant empowerment if we use it as a fuel to get bigger and stronger, and that the adrenaline can make us vital, ready and powerful.  And she suggests ways to release the adrenaline, such as foot-stomping, banging stress balls together, moaning and thumping pillows, as she says that adrenaline is a hormone of action and that action is the only way to deplete it quickly (to let the oxytocin do its thing).

I used all these in my labour, and I must say they really helped me in terms of feeling strong and empowered.  The only thing I felt was that perhaps as my labour progressed the techniques diverted my attention from "going inward" - I used them to control rather than letting go and letting my primitive responses guide me.  (I definately agree with your comment about needing to let go of the conscious work)  But then again, by THAT time, I was feeling extremely unsafe and abandoned and was looking for anything to gain a skerrick of control in what I felt was a situation where I actually thought I was going to die.  SO maybe there needs to be a place where the woman feels safe enought to let go of the conscious work...as I certainly didn't feel that.

I would be interested to hear your comments about the above - I guess when I was pg I thought that if Julia was telling us this in our classes, that it must BE so.  But I have learned the hard way that I can no longer trust and must do my own research.  I have not looked into this adrenaline stuff before, as it hasn't come up till now...but now I guess I must question everything.  

Melissa

PS my support person in my birth was Deb Gould, my sister-in-law...you shared a car with her and Kelly on the way to your talk in Brisbane.   Small world, hey!

Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and the power of the mind


> On the topic of control...I love it when women say they want a cs cause they
> are more in controlgot news for them!  Unless they are multi-skilled and
> dam flexible and have the scalpel in their own hands, they are in no way in
> control!
>
> Jo Bainbridge


So right, Jo!  Being pinned down and not being able to move your legs is a
horrible feeling - NO sense of control there.

And on the subject of "reasons" for a c/sec...I find it interesting when I
hear women say that they want a c/sec because they hate pain.  I can say
from experience that a c/sec is in no way pain-free.  Especially the
postnatal period.  Trying to sit-up with a fresh slice across your belly,
add to that a uterine infection or scar infection (which most women I talk
to have had one or the other), bleeding and mashed raw nipples (from trying
to feed lying down b/c it is too painful for your belly to sit up, but then
it is too hard to get proper attachment lying down, hence the nipple
damage), feet blown up like puffer-fish for days and extremely tender, and
all without those releasing hormones of birth.


Now THAt is not pain-free.

Sigh - I am a little cynical these days.

Melissa
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Re: [ozmidwifery] ABC radio

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] ABC radio



Strength to you, Jo!  I know what you mean re being scared...I was on ABC talkback radio chatting about attending our local NMAP launch rally with a group of c/sec women, and the effect it had on us all.  I thought I was going to throw up afterwards!  But that subsided fast and I was left with a feeling of satisfaction of having got the idea "out there" that a c/sec was not all it is proclaimed to be by knife-happy OBs!  (and relieved that I got through the converation without my toddler butting in, by plying him with juice and rice cakes at will!!)

I guess the only thing that I would add is that women usually believe they are "choosing" a c/sec through "informed consent".  But it is not "informed", as their OB usually does not give them all the information on the possible effects from a c/sec, or an epidural for that matter.  Women need to be given ALL the information, and currently, they are generally not.

BEst of luck, and you go, girl!
Melissa

--
From: "Jo & Dean Bainbridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [ozmidwifery] ABC radio
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:50 AM


Next Tuesday at 9am (EST) ABC radio is running a 15 minute segment on cs and women's choices.  Anne Dealany has asked me to talk about choices and processes that women go through which brings them to the choice of elective cs or vbac.  I am going to do a bit of prep work tonight and will send the list some ideas I will bring into the conversation.  If any one has anything they want me to include (yes, NMAP and continuity of carer and so forth are already on my list.)  please let me know.  
wish me luck, I am scarred shitlesswhen ever I get nervous I cant stop talking (as many of you have already had the misfortune to experience first hand!!!)
Jo Bainbridge
founding member CARES SA
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
phone: 08 8388 6918
birth with trust, faith & love...

Re: [ozmidwifery] ABC radio

Good point, MArgie.  My best friend went to her OB at 37 wks because she was
extremely anxious about the birth.  What did he offer her...time to talk?  A
chance to express her fears?  An opportunity to get some perspective on her
issues?  No...he offered her the "choice" of an induction, to get it over
and done with.  Induced at 38 wks.  12 hrs with no dilation..."emergency"
caesarean.  Baby with APGAR of 3.  Traumatised mother.

Even tho it wasn't an elective c/sec, it was an "elective" induction...and
she berated herself for months for "allowing" the induction to take place.
(it took a long while for me to be able to convice her that she was never
given the opportunity to make an informed choice)

Imagine if she'd had a caring midwife she had grown to trust with whom she
could share her fears and concerns.  I'm sure it would have been a different
story.

Melissa

--
>From: Margie Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ABC radio
>Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 7:48 AM
>

> Hi Jo
>
> I'm glad this interview eventuated and I'm sure you'll do it really well.
> Current topic of faith/trust versus information is important too -
> continuity of care helps to build the woman's trustof process and her
> caregivers and midwife's and support people's faith in woman's ability.
> Perhaps far less women would go for elective caesar if they had time to
> talk over fears throughout pregnancy.
>
> Good luck
>
> Margie
>
>
>
> At Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:20:26 +1030,
> Jo & Dean Bainbridge ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> Next Tuesday at 9am (EST) ABC radio is running a 15 minute segment
>> on cs and women's choices.  Anne Dealany has asked me to talk
>> about choices and processes that women go through which brings
>> them to the choice of elective cs or vbac.  I am going to do a bit
>> of prep work tonight and will send the list some ideas I will
>> bring into the conversation.  If any one has anything they want me
>> to include (yes, NMAP and continuity of carer and so forth are
>> already on my list.)  please let me know.
>> wish me luck, I am scarred shitlesswhen ever I get nervous I
>> cant stop talking (as many of you have already had the misfortune
>> to experience first hand!!!)
>> Jo Bainbridge
>> founding member CARES SA
>> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> phone: 08 8388 6918
>> birth with trust, faith & love...o+Bainbridge%0D%0Afounding
>
>
>
> 
>
> Looking for a free email account?
> Get one now at http://www.freemail.com.au/
>
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] big baby fear?

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] big baby fear?



I'll say it's a good week!  Warms my heart and gives me hope to hear stories like this.  THanks Judy

Melissa

--
From: "Judy Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] big baby fear?
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 8:09 PM



The woman I worked with today had a CS without labour for a 'big baby' for her first birth. She was also diagnosed as a gestational diabetic that pregnancy. Baby was 3870 - comfy but not particularly big. 
Booked for a CS tomorrow, came in with ruptured membranes and some contractions last night and despite interference had a successful vaginal birth under her own steam at midday. Needless to say she is very happy. As am I. Good week this week. 

Judy

: RE: [ozmidwifery] big baby fear? 
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:41:01 +1100 
Big baby would, in my books, be over 4000. A lot does depend on the size of 
the mother. Why the caesar? Hopefully not for 'big baby' 
-Original Message- 
On Behalf Of Julie Garratt 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:33 AM 
Subject: [ozmidwifery] big baby fear? 
Hi all, 
I'm concerned that saying to a mother that their having a "nice big baby" 
can be a bit terrifying as my niece just told me that she was so glad she 
had a caesarean because he was such a big baby. He was actually only... 
weight 2980, length 49.5cm head circumference 35.5cm. I asked her why she 
thought this was big as its her second child and second ceasar. Her reply 
was that all through her pregnancy she was told that he was a big baby, even 
a very big baby! maybe it was because my niece is very overweight that this 
was said, I don't know? I'm sure the Midwives meant that he was a healthy 
baby not to huge to be birthed. What is a big baby anyway? 
Curious as always Julie'', 
 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] 'elective' cs

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 'elective' cs

--
From: "Jo & Dean Bainbridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [ozmidwifery] 'elective' cs
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:56 PM

 I would suggest (perhaps incorrectly?) that the greatest culprits of the right to elective cs are women...

 Issues such as respiratory disorders and so forth were worth the risk and they were up and doing the shopping in a few days!!  

...There is no comprehension of alternative options of care no understanding of consecutive pregnancy complications and so forth.  They are proud and very aggressive to alternative experiences.  

Jo, I know exactly what you mean.  It IS scary, the general attitude towards cs.  A lot of women I know have exactly that proud, aggressive attitude you describe.  One woman I know, who had 3 c/secs (2 elective) was telling me  of a friend (a GP!!) who had all 4 of her kids by elective cs.  SHe then announced - with almost a ferocity - that almost NONE of her friends have had a natural birth...nearly ALL caesareans.

I face this attitude towards c/secs (the flippant "fit it into my schedule/I had no pain" attitude) a lot of the time, as many of the women from my old social group from school days have this attitude.  I used to be quite threatened by their aggression.

But I still have trouble putting the blame on the women.  I agree they promote the cs myth...but who gave them the idea that it was "safe" in the first place? 

I believe it is also a cultural issue : we are brought up to trust Drs unquestionably, and to be good little girls, and expect to be looked after.  The idea that we need a Dr to birth is so ingrained in our culture (media, horror stories from friends, our mother's stories).  Plus most of us are trained to fear pain, and there is no education as to the possible benefits of labour pain.  Plus we are not educated to trust our bodies.

But the women I talk to DO ask their OBs about safety...but are generally assured they are doing the right thing, and given a brief list of possible "side effects" but then are able to either explain them away or dismiss them as not important.

THe woman I mentioned with the 3 c/secs got info from her endocrinologist whose wife was pg, supporting the "safety of c/secs" (love to know where he got his stats), and it was THIS info that conviced her to get her second c/sec.  She asked her own OB if he had this info, and he said yes, but he didn't need it.

Whew - this has got long.  Sorry.  And I have written it with a very vocal 3yo next to me, so sorry if it jumps all over the place!

Melissa

Re: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.....when Sally met Harry....(Long)

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.when Sally met Harry(Long)



oh, Tina- I am bawling here!  I can hardly see the screen...that is the MOSt AWESOME story - THANK YOU for sharing it here.  Sniff sniff - it truly does the soul good to hear what a woman can do when she is supported and nurtured and caressed and honoured.

Thank you for doing what you do : we mothers need what you are doing.

Would you mind if I share that story at my "Birthtalk : Sharing, Empowering, Celebrating Birth" meeting next week?  

MElissa

PS. and you put at the end of your story "The End", but really, it is just the beginning for this mother.  SHe will be able to use the strength and courage you encouraged her to feel during her birth, in her daily life.  SHe will forever be touched by the gift you gave her, and her children will be blessed by it too.



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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.when Sally met Harry(Long)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 8:45 AM


Hi fellow listersthought I'd share my most recent follow thru journey with you all...

M where do I start

Sally (not her real name) and I engaged in our partnership in her 12th 
week of pregnancy...she is married to Jason...and they have one 
adorable little boy Patrickwho just turned three. Patrick's birth 
was pretty much a 'hamburger with the lot'.induced at term with synto for suspected PROM..(hind water leak) and GBS positiveantibiotics in labour...continuous electronic fetal monitoring...birthing supine in stirrups in a pethidine haze...episiand 'lift out' forceps...Patrick then spent 3-4 days in the special care nursery with query pneumonia?? The experience left Sally feeling quite fragile, but as she saysin the end I just had to 'get on with it'

Her pregnancy this time started off on a much better noteshe had community midwife care, and her midwife student in her ear at every opportunity :-)) Throughout the pregnancy we developed a really wonderful relationship...sharing over cuppas or lunch...often with extended family around...never a visit under two hours...like me, 
Sally hates to yack!!!

Anyhow fast forward to last Friday 15th Nov...her due date (by ultrasound 11/11/02, by her dates 23/11/02) having come and gone...of course necessitated a visit to the AN clinic :-))...Doc does his checks says all is just wonderful...but still insists on an IOL 
(prostin) scheduled for 20/11 if nothing happens before thenSally says OK..

Monday 18th.0600 hrs...Sally phones me to say she's been contracting for a few hourshind water leak again (GBS neg in this pregnancy), excited that things are on their way without the induction...However, Monday came and went without any further 
action...tighenings and niggles ALL day Tuesday and Tuesday night still leaking with contractions...into hospital we go for IOL as planned 0800 Wednesday.. 1.0 mg of prostin 0900midwife says Sally's cervix IS really stretchy...50% effacedno dilation...just the typical "multips OS"

Sally was told to go home at 11.00 :-0 I couldn't believe they would send her home...all that prelabour stuff...a VE and prostinreceipe for labour I thought...however...midiwfe says no no may be a while yet...so home it was ..."rest up and return for 
second prostin dose at 2.30pm" were the instructions...

I arrived home about 11.45...only to receive a call from Sally to say "meet you back 
at the hospitallabours come on in a hurry...contracting 3/10.." 
Surprise, surprise!!

Labour kicked on well and truly...contractions coming quite think and fast once we got settled in birth room...As fate would have it a midwife friend just happened to bump into me on the way in to begin her shift..she quickly put her name up to care for Sally...and Janine (fellow BMidder on placement) just happened to be passing by so a good birth team was assembled...The midwife...gorgeous woman...just left us too itjust call me when you've got a head on view...and that we did...Sally laboured beautifully strong and well supported by husband Jason and later her mother-in-law who came to witness the birth. Sally was very active...then when contractions got enormous...she took up her birth position standing, leaning over the bed...wanted a good position to avoid an episi...Not to worry I told her...no episi today...:-))

I was in awe of this woman...she was frightened...her hands shaking...but determined to GIVE BIRTH to this baby...we all worked so well together..contractions changed up a bit...and that beautiful grunty sound on the end of themI asked Sally to tell me what she could feel in her vagina...her bottom...not quite sure, I encouraged her to put a finger or two inside and tell me...hesitant at first..she finally gave it ago "cause I ain't putting mine in" I told her...another contraction and I could see slight bulging at peak of 
a contraction...and with contractions coming thick

Re: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.....when Sally met Harry....(Long)

2002-11-24 Thread rem & melissa bruijn

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.when Sally met Harry(Long)





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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

At the B Mid Student Collective...we are bantering around the possibility of putting a book together of our follow thru experiences 'with woman'..written by BMidders who have the honour and privilege of sharing in women's experiences :-))



Tina - can't wait to read it.  THis ties in with one of our reasons for starting "Birthtalk"...actually changing women's perception of what birth is, by the stories that are told.  That is how our concept of "birth" is passed from woman to woman.  We NEED these stories of how women work together to find strength and birth their babies on their own terms.  Thank you for caring so very much.
MElissa

Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and the power of the mind

2002-11-24 Thread rem & melissa bruijn

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and the power of the mind



From: Carolyn Donaghey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Why do women who avoid alcohol, panadol and soft cheese for 9 months suddenly become happy about ingesting drugs more powerful than any of these and any they are likely to take in their life?  Why aren't these women worried about the effect on their baby (assuming the cs was performed for the babies safety as is the usual argument), are these things discussed with women before the drug is administered?  I dont recall ever being told the possible side effects. 


Carolyn - I don't recall being told either.  And I was one of those who avoided EVERYTHING during my pregnancy!

Re: [ozmidwifery] CPD WAS big baby fear?

2002-11-25 Thread rem & melissa bruijn

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] CPD  WAS big baby fear?





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>From: Sarah Slater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I just find it disheartening to hear someone say that they were glad that 
> they had a c-section because their baby was 'large'. I mean fair enough if 
> it was 12lb or something (although I have heard that's possible!) 
> 
> Anyway, I'm not yet a midwife and there's probably more to it than this 
> like for instance cephalopelvic disproportion


Sarah - check out the International Caesarean Awareness Network (ICAN) website (www.ican-online.org).  In their FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) section, they discuss when a c/sec is TRULY indicated with a CPD diagnosis.  According to ICAN, true CPD is extremely rare and only associated with a pelvic deformity or an incorrectly healed pelvic break.  That description does not apply to any of the women that I know who were sliced open for "CPD".

Melissa

FW: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.....when Sally met Harry....(Long)

Title: FW: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.when Sally met Harry(Long)



Tina - tonite I read your story as you wrote it, to our "Birthtalk- Sharing, Empowering, Celebrating Birth" group.  It was heard by a group of 8 women. 
(6 have suffered traumatic c/sec births and 4 are pg)  It was such an amazing story, and I was a bit weepy myself as it neared the end and struggled to keep my voice steady...and your story had such an effect on us as a group.  We were all wiping our eyes, and it gave us such strength, to hear what can happen when women support women.  It lead into a very passionate recounting by one mum of her own vbac homebirth and how she received support such as you offered.  And this then started a discussion on how it feels to give birth (most of these women have never experienced that), and how she coped with having her 3yo and her mum around, and how we have all coped with our mothers when in labour, and then we went into what we can learn from our mother's birth experiences, and how our relationship with our mother can develop as we share our stories of birth.  So we heard two very positive stories that renewed our belief in ourselves and our ability to birth, and has sprouted a whole new series of Qs and issues that confront women facing birth again after a traumatic experience.  

So thank you.  All the women thanked me at the end for sharing the story, so I must thank you...and the women whose story it is ("Sally").

These stories will change how we birth.

Melissa

Re: [ozmidwifery] follow through programme

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] follow through programme



I did not know this was even an option - thanks for sharing this info.

Melissa

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From: "Grant and Louise" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ozmidwifery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [ozmidwifery] follow through programme
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 9:44 AM


I'd like to second Tina's comments re follow through. It was the best part
of my midi (1988) following through "my" 4 ladies, and at the moment I am a 
follow through lady" myself (or longitudinal case study!) for a lovely midi
student. It is great to have someone there with me at all my visits. I just
hope I don't birth while she's away at residential school.



LOUISE

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.....when Sally met Harry....(Long)

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] A follow thru journey.when Sally met Harry(Long)



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Also Melissa...where are you all?? I would like to take this opportunity to invite these women to contact their local universities and enquire about their midwifery courses, particularly if they run a "follow through" program. These women could all have their own midwife student should it be of interest to themIf any of the women would like further info on the follow thru programs for the Bachelor of Midwifery let me know and I can put them in contact with the appropriate people...


TIna - we are all in Brisbane/Gold Coast area (meetings in BRisbane).  I would really be interested if any local uni's have this programme - sounds great.  Specially if the students are anything like you and your friends who supported Sally!

Melissa

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise