FA 35/2 and K 35/3.5

2002-11-11 Thread Frankie Lee
I already have the K 28/3.5 and F 50/1.4. I am thinking to get a walk-around lens. So 
K 35/3.5 and FA 35/2 would be my choices. I would like to seek opinion on the 
followings:

Any difference in optical performance provided that the speed and auto focus are not 
essential?

The durability of plastic FA 35/2 for travel photography?

Thanks.


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Re: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 04:39  PM, Ken Archer wrote:


Does it need to go to the hospital?

--
Kenneth Archer, San Antonio, Texas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Hi Ken,
I don't know. I snatched it up and put it on a shelf and I'm trying not 
to think about it. Nothing I can do about it tonight, anyway.

Dan Scott



OT: Crap from Canada

2002-11-11 Thread Dr E D F Williams
I notice, from replies to Dobo, that he's at it again. Oh dear me! But I see
people are snipping his rubbish and making it unnecessary for me to make
more filters. Great!

We have snow now. Not very much. I hope we have more soon; in time for new
pictures for this year's Christmas card.

D

Dr E D F Williams

http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams
Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery
Updated: March 30, 2002


- Original Message -
From: Norman Baugher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro


 Why are you subscribed to a list of crap hobbyists?

 Pentax Guy wrote:

 snip a load of crap
 








AP (16/11) - Pentax UK Confirms digital SLR launch plan

2002-11-11 Thread zoomshot
Straight from this weeks Amateur Photographer 'THISWEEK' section;
 
PENTAX UK HAS CONFIRMED plans for the launch of a new flagship digital
SLR next spring. It has also pledged to continue making film-based SLR
camera bodies and medium-format bodies.

Responding to rumours on the internet about an upcoming launch, Pentax
UK's marketing manager John Dickens told AP: 'We cannot deny that we are
launching a digital SLR in spring 2003. All information concerning this
model will be released in its final form nearer the time. There is
enough time to make modifications between now and the launch in spring.

Commenting on suggestions that the company is to cut its range of
cameras, Dickens said Pentax's move to reduce the number of 35mm
compacts already reflects the growing consumer demand for digital
models. 'This also allows us to free up RD for digital that people
really want, ' he said. He confirmed that the company's MZ-series of
film-based SLRs will continue.

'SLR camera bodies will carry on being developed and a brand-new SLR
chassis will form the basis of the digital SLR and other SLRs. We will
also continue with medium format cameras.'

Last year Pentax shelved plans to launch a six-million-pixel flagship
digital SLR, saying that it wanted to move away from the 'cost no
object' must-have, best possible quality' area of the digital arena.

The camera had been code-named MR-52 and was first unveiled at the
Photokina trade show two years ago.

It was due to be based on Pentax's 35mm SLRs and was to be compatible
with Pentax K-mount lenses and use a digital chip which was jointly
developed with Philips.

Nothing that we didn't know but it is now in print, so roll on Spring
2003..  





Re: Let's Help Greywolf - Update.

2002-11-11 Thread Keith Whaley
Me too. But, we (I) need an address, please.

keith whaley

Dan Scott wrote:
 
 On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 08:59  PM, Ed Matthew wrote:
 
 
  I'm in discussions with another list member about the possibility of
  setting up a PayPal thing, so donations can happen that way (I can't
  do
  PayPal - no credit cards - don't ask! vbg).  I'm going to contact
  Tom
  tonight, to let him know what we're up to, and to confirm a mailing
  address that I got from another list member.
 
  I don't use PayPal, so know nearly nothing about it. Count me in for
  $25
  (check or US$ as you prefer - more if want to make a nice round
  figure). Jus tell me where to send it. Knowing my own tendency to
  procrastinate, I will suggest that we should move quickly.
 
  Regards,
  Ed Matthew
 
 
 Rather send cash or check, too, and it'd probably be better to get it
 while I've got it.
 
 Dan Scott




Re: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro

2002-11-11 Thread Rfsindg
Norm  Bruce,
Anybody who has two email accounts subscribed to the pdml, 
and uses one to respond to his comments from the other
is way over the top for me.   
...and cabin fever hasn't even started yet in the great white north. g
Regards,  Bob S.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Bruce, you're right, damn it you're right...  Maybe I was hoping for a 
 response along the lines of after I consult my fellow knights of the 
 round table, etc. etc. .the  tennis balls coming out of the TV will 
 tell us what to doetc. etc..
 
 Bruce Rubenstein wrote:
 
 Norm,
 
 And you are responding from some ignorant, psychotic kid from Pavement
 Narrows Ontario, because?
 I'm crushed, crushed by my bitter disappointment in you.
 
 BR
 
 From: Norman Baugher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Why are you subscribed to a list of crap hobbyists?
 
 Pentax Guy wrote:
 
   
 
 snip a load of crap
  




Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 It was the lens gallery.  Thanks for the posts.

OK, good, Bruce.  (Although I didn't think that there were any
77/1.8 Ltd images in the Lens Gallery - however, there are several
of the 85's represented there.)

By the way, ordinarily the mirror (
http://phred.org/pentax/lensgal/lensgal.html ) has been identical to
the Lens Gallery proper (
http://gemma.geo.uaic.ro/~vdonisa/lensgal.html ), but I noticed that
the current mirror doesn't seem to be in complete agreement with the
Gallery proper - it probably hasn't been updated in a while, I
guess.

Fred





Re: Dust in Lenses

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
It is my hypothesis that telephotos (except IF ones, of course) tend
to exchange more air while focusing back and forth (with their
usually longer helicoids) than do most wide angles, and so they end
up sucking in more dust.  ;-)

 Unfortunately, FA135/2.8  FA*200/2.8 are IF, and they still suck more dust 
 than my other lenses.  :(

Oh well, so much for that theory...  (Actually it was just a
hypothesis - elevating it to a theory would definitely be stretching
the point - g.)

OK, here's another thought:  Perhaps at least some of the IF lenses
still suck air in (and blow air out) while focusing.  Although the
total air volume inside an IF lens may not change during focusing,
it is still possible that, as the moving optical group shuttles
forward and backward inside the lens, air could be alternately
pushed out the back while being sucked in the front, and then pushed
out the front while being sucked in the back.  (???)  ;-)

Fred





Re: vivitar 35-85mm 2.8 lens

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 i came across this lens in mint condition i mean not a scratch for
 $120 australian so i bought it
 3. was that a good price 0- i think so the last two on ebay went
 for around 180-200 us or 320-350 australian

I'd say that is an ~excellent~ price.  (The prices on this lens tend
to vary widely, depending upon whether the seller realizes it's such
a cult classic or not - g.)

In her review of this old lens in a 1998 (yes, 1998) issue of
Shutterbug magazine, Frances Schultz says:

Some lenses are legendary: the Voigtlander Apo Lanthar, the Zeiss
Biogon, the Leitz Thambar, and so on. Usually, their prices reflect
their legendary status. There are others which deserve to be legends
and are really appreciated by those who own them, but which can
still be found surprisingly inexpensive.

Part of the attractiveness of some of the cult classic lenses has
always been their price-to-performance ratio.

Fred





RE: Agfa Portrait 160 XPS

2002-11-11 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ooo..
I'd be interested too Albano as I've got a roll of 120 itching to be put
into my MF camera.

I know Jeff in Toronto here has used this film in the past (and I've seen
the results - outstanding!) so I think he'll be one of the people with
input on it.

Oh Jeff ? :-)

Cheers,
Dave

Original Message:
-
From: Albano Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:37:05 -0800 (PST)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Agfa Portrait 160 XPS


I know we have some Agfa fans in the list (I'm between
them).
I've bought two rolls of this film in 120 format to
try it.
I wanted to know what EI do you suggest, 160, 125 or
100? Comments on film grain, colors, etc?
All experiences welcome
Regards



=
Albano Garcia
El Pibe Asahi

__
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U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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http://mail2web.com/ .





Re: vivitar 35-85mm 2.8 lens

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 1. flare- how do i control it-it flares worse than smc lens

No surprises here - it's not a Pentax SMC lens, and Vivitar's VMC is
not as good as Pentax.  (Hypothesis: Part of the popularity of a lot
of the 3rd-party cult classic lenses may be due to the fact that
many of their biggest fans also use Nikon, Canon, Minolta, Olympus,
and Konica, etc., lenses, so that the difference in flare resistance
between the 3rd-party lenses and the name-branded lenses may be
smaller than the difference between the 3rd-party lenses and SMC
Pentax lenses.)

In Frances Schultz's review of this lens in a 1998 issue of
Shutterbug magazine, she says: Despite all the glass, and 18 air
glass surfaces, flare is surprisingly low for such a complex lens of
this age.  Well, it's worth remembering that Schultz shoots with
Nikon gear, so her comparison is likely being made against Nikon
glass (which is not SMC Pentax glass, right?).

On the other hand, in the Modern Photo review of this lens, flare
was mentioned as a problem:  Without [the hood], reflections from
the inside of the front-element circumference produce pronounced
lens flare. The hood eliminates this, so you must think of it as an
integral part of the lens for nearly all your shooting.

I think the truth lies somewhere between these two reviews.  I have
noticed flare occasionally with this lens (and, due to the benefits
of SMC on my Pentax lenses, I sometimes have gotten pretty casual
about worrying about hoods and flare, so part of this may be the
result my own laziness).  However, when I've remembered to pop the
hood on the lens, it does not seem to be bothered by flare all that
much (depending upon the actual shooting conditions at the time, of
course).

The lens's own hood (not a built-in hood, but a removable one) is,
naturally, not fully useful at many focal lengths.  It's not a
tuliped hood, and, as with most zoom lens hoods, a hood that might
be useful at the wide end of the zoom range becomes much less useful
at the longer end of the range.  Sometimes, you can provide a
shadow on the front of the lens using your hand or some other
blind - however, you do have to be careful to keep the blind out of
the image field (unless you plan on cropping it substantially).

Fred





Re: vivitar 35-85mm 2.8 lens

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 2. optically how does it compare to zooms of today

It actually stands up quite well.  Else, why would Frances Schultz
still be raving about it in Shutterbug in 1998, almost 25 years
after its introduction.  Schultz said:  Even by modern standards it
is fast; it is still remarkably sharp; [...] It was introduced in
the mid-1970s, over 20 years ago; [...] Very few zooms of that
period were any good, but the performance of this one is impressive,
even by the standards of the late 1990s. [...] It is fast and easy
to use and delivers excellent results at all focal lengths.  A
synopsis (only) of this review is available online (
http://www.shutterbug.net/archives/story.cfm?StoryID=377 ), but I
did post the entire contents of the review previously here on the
PDML (check the archives, or I could send a copy by email).

Schultz and Roger Hicks also specifically (and positively) mention
this lens in their 1994 book, The Lens Book, which is the one book
recommended by Robert Monaghan on his famous Cult Classic Megasite
( http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/third/cult.html ).

However, don't forget that part of the attraction of cult classic
lenses sometimes derives from such things as their historical
significance, their uniqueness of design, their rarity, etc., and
these factors don't necessarily result in better images on film -
g.  Furthermore, there is a cost factor often involved, where some
cult classics often performed close to (and not always necessarily
better than) their much more expensive name-branded counterparts.

Fred





Re: vivitar 35-85mm 2.8 lens

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 5. finally it doesx not mount my autofocus bodies - how do i
 cooreect this?

The problem is that, way back in the 1970's, Vivitar provided a very
generous semi-circular baffle on the K-mount flange of this lens
(and I have no idea as to whether such a baffle exists on other lens
mounts).  While this baffle caused absolutely no problems on the
contemporaneous K bodies for which it was designed, and does not
cause any problems on many of the newer K-mount bodies (I have found
it to be OK with the ME Super, the MEF, the Super Program/A, and the
Program Plus/A), it can intrude too much on some of the newer
bodies (my experience is that the flange just makes contact with the
upper baffle in the LX, for example, and others have mentioned newer
autofocus bodies having a problem with this lens).

The solution is simply to remove the excess baffle by carefully
cutting it or grinding it away.  Of course, some might question
whether it is worth doing this to such an old lens simply in order
to use it on a newer body, but I personally think it is, although
tastes vary considerably amongst us - g.  I'll put up a few photos
of the problem and the solution shortly (along with a few scans of
some of the VS1 35-85/2.8's ads and brochure images, while I'm at
it) shortly.

Fred





Re: OT: Disposable Cameras and Ilford

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Brad Dobo wrote:
 Nope, not sure at all.  Now that you mention it, being a C41 would make
 sense considering who they are selling to.

Bing!

I'm surprised we haven't seen disposables loaded with Kodak BW Plus (or
Select, or whatever its called), which is a C41 BW optimized for regular
colour channels on minilabs.

When you get a BW back, it actually looks black and white, not sepia,
green, or other...

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Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:
 And, for the 1/10th of 1% that you actually use and enjoy, you're
 going thru all that sweat and tears?
 Nah, not me, thanks...

I'm a longstanding computer geek, and every computer I've owned for the
last 10 years or so has had a copy of Photoshop on it..Not because I
needed it, but because it was expected.

I've never bother to do anything of note in it, until recently.. The last
few times I've turned the PC on, I've learned how to use curves and levels
to make a nicer looking image, and how to clone out dust. Then I learned
how to correctly resize images and DPI for printing.

Is there more to photoshop? Oh yeah.
Do I need to learn it? Nope. I can do everything I need to, and it was
actually pretty easy to learn.


-- 
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http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.




Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 Fred wrote:

 The FA* 85/1.4 also has a much nicer focus feel (due to the clutch),
 than the 77 Ltd, in my opinion.

 Not in my opinion. The 77 Limited has a more weighty feel closer
 to older manual focus lenses.

I think I see what you are saying, Paal.  The 77/1.8 does have a
firmer feel (i.e., more resistance), and I generally prefer that,
too.

However, as I have pointed out before (and I know that I am in the
minority on this one), I strongly dislike the whirring feel that
many autofocus lenses (including the 77/1.8 and the 43/1.9) produce
when being focused manually, due to the gear train that is being
forced to move within the lens (unless there is a clutch to take the
gear train out for manual focusing).

I can tolerate the whirring feel on the F* 300/4.5, but I really
don't like it on most of the other clutchless autofocus lenses
I've tried.

Fred





Re: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 Seems like I lost half my Pentax mail volume when I applied those
 two filters.

Well, it's maybe not quite ~half~ - g.  However, my Nuisance
folder for those two accounts has 139 posts in it from November
alone.

Fred





Re: If You had to pick one lens . . .

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Rob Studdert wrote:
 On 10 Nov 2002 at 12:39, gfen wrote:
  It should proove to be a collossal waste of time and film. :)
 Now don't you wish you had a DSLR :-)

Not really.. I find myself wanting to use my 645 and large format rigs
more than 35 just because I find them more of a pleasure to use... a DSLR
will just take away from them further, because of the convieneces.

 Seriously I'm sure we'll learn a lot more about lenses that we don't own as
 soon as a DSLR becomes available. I for one would be far happier to do (more)
 lens testing.

Troo.. I don't mind blowing the time and film and whatnot, its just I have
so many other things to do, and there's such little daylight.

I'd actualyl like to do the tests with my large format lenses, as well.
I've also wanted to do a film comparision to each other, as well. Perhaps
the time for all these things is now..

Hmm..

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Re: The all new PDML FAQ..

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Lon Williamson wrote:
 I'm glad you are doing this.  I'm personally less concerned
 with techical stuff as much as list protocol.  Hell, Boz

Its a little bit of both, but there's no way I could hope to compete with
a site like Boz's... Nor would I want to, but I am semi-tempted to do a
645 version.

 has enough techinical stuff to stifle you for a year, if my
 poor brain is any judge.  I HEARBY FORMALLY NOMINATE GFEN AS
 (sucker of the year) THE NEXT PDML FAQ AUTHOR.  All in favor,

Uhm.. go me!

 clap.  And please, this time, make your palms meet each other.

No, its very zen the other way.

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Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread William Robb

- Original Message -
From: Keith Whaley
Subject: Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited




 Be part of the solution, Paul, and recommend a film (or films)
you
 feel WOULD be more suitable for lens quality testing, please.

Try a normal contrast slide film. Is EPN still being made?

William Robb





Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread William Robb

- Original Message -
From: Rob Brigham
Subject: RE: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited


 I would never accuse Velvia of being 'outside the mainstream',
nor would
 just about most people who take landscapes IMHO.  It may be an
extreme,
 but its one of the most used slide films in the world and is
pretty much
 the definition of mainstream to me.

Funny you should say that. I shoot a lot of landscapes, a lot on
4x5. I tried Velvia when it came out, and found it to be too
contrasty and too saturated.
The stuff doesn't look real to me, and has too short a tonal
range to be useable IMO. Now I do use very contrasty lenses,
which I am sure makes a difference.

William Robb




Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Keith Whaley
Your comments understood and agreed with...

That's about what I'd need/want to do, as well.

Other comments within the text below...

gfen wrote:
 
 On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:
  And, for the 1/10th of 1% that you actually use and enjoy, you're
  going thru all that sweat and tears?
  Nah, not me, thanks...
 
 I'm a longstanding computer geek, and every computer I've owned for the
 last 10 years or so has had a copy of Photoshop on it..

How did it GET There?

 Not because I needed it, but because it was expected.

Expected to BE there, by you? Did you ask for it to be loaded by the
seller of the CPU?
 
 I've never bother to do anything of note in it, until recently.. The last
 few times I've turned the PC on, I've learned how to use curves and levels
 to make a nicer looking image, and how to clone out dust. Then I learned
 how to correctly resize images and DPI for printing.
 
 Is there more to photoshop? Oh yeah.
 Do I need to learn it? Nope. I can do everything I need to, and it was
 actually pretty easy to learn.

Okay, points taken. Thanks for the words...

keiht whaley




Re: OT: Is BOKEH real?!?! Was -- Re: If You had to pick one lens. . .

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Rob Studdert wrote:
  Cosina makes Voightlander?
 Sure do and they've done so since 1997 see:

Is this the same hated and reviled Cosina that's muttered in the same
breath as Vivitar and Phoenix?

I thought the new Voightlanders were respected cameras and quality lenses?
If this is the case, then why-oh-why can't all Cosina lenses be as
respected?



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Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Keith Whaley
I opened that site, Rod, and there were no pictures (!) so I
bookmarked it for later viewing! big grin
Thanks for posting it!

keith whaley

Rob Studdert wrote:
 
 On 11 Nov 2002 at 5:06, Keith Whaley wrote:
 
  Be part of the solution, Paul, and recommend a film (or films) you
  feel WOULD be more suitable for lens quality testing, please.
 
 The following is a good lens testing reference page:
 
 http://www.imx.nl/photosite/technical/lenstesting.html
 
 Cheers,
 
 Rob Studdert
 HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
 Tel +61-2-9554-4110
 UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html




Re: Agfa Portrait 160 XPS

2002-11-11 Thread Jeff
Hi Albano  Dave,

I shot 4 rolls of AP 160 at the rated speed with my then pinholed GS645.
The ones that turned out, had a nice and soft skintone reproduction. I
didn't much cared about the (grainy, muddy) background.
For portraits I liked it better than the NPS, but not as much as the NPC.

A couple of weeks ago I shot 2 rolls of NPH 220 with my 690 Texas Leica. I
found it's performance every bit as good as the Agfa for portraits, with the
speed advantage (400 vs. 160).

HTH,
Jeff.

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Agfa Portrait 160 XPS


 Ooo..
 I'd be interested too Albano as I've got a roll of 120 itching to be put
 into my MF camera.

 I know Jeff in Toronto here has used this film in the past (and I've seen
 the results - outstanding!) so I think he'll be one of the people with
 input on it.

 Oh Jeff ? :-)

 Cheers,
 Dave

 Original Message:
 -
 From: Albano Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:37:05 -0800 (PST)
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Agfa Portrait 160 XPS


 I know we have some Agfa fans in the list (I'm between
 them).
 I've bought two rolls of this film in 120 format to
 try it.
 I wanted to know what EI do you suggest, 160, 125 or
 100? Comments on film grain, colors, etc?
 All experiences welcome
 Regards



 =
 Albano Garcia
 El Pibe Asahi

 __
 Do you Yahoo!?
 U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
 http://launch.yahoo.com/u2



 
 mail2web - Check your email from the web at
 http://mail2web.com/ .






RE: Just a quick jump in...

2002-11-11 Thread ernreed2
César, referring to his snakeskin LX bodies (I assume) posted: 
 ***Awww, c'mon, they are not that alarming are they?

Yes. They are.
;)




Re: The all new PDML FAQ..

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 09:09  AM, gfen wrote:



Uhm.. go me!


clap.  And please, this time, make your palms meet each other.


No, its very zen the other way.



Is this one of those measurbating references?

Dan Scott




Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:
 How did it GET There?

-cough- That would be TELLING.

Anyways, I was a 13 year old geek when I got my first PC (from a trash bin
in the very industrial park I now work), before that I had my share of
PCs.

At the time, we all pirated software to our heart's content. It was
expected of us. To say nothing of the old warez boards I frequented,
sysop'd on, and the short lived glory days of being in our very own group
(for the record, we had one release, we trumped the big guys, and I still
have the .nfo file somewhere).

So, anyway, yeah..

  Not because I needed it, but because it was expected.
 Expected to BE there, by you? Did you ask for it to be loaded by the
 seller of the CPU?

Again, computer geeks are expected to have computers glutted to the gills
with all sorts of fanciful software they didn't use except to make the
occasional bas relief filtered image. ;)

 Okay, points taken. Thanks for the words...

Seriously, its pretty easy to do teh basics.. I'm still figuring out the
indepth parts of curves and levels, but cloning to spot is a godsend.



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http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.




VS1 35-85/2.8 Lens Images

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
Prompted by a recent thread involving the Vivitar Series 1 35-85/2.8
lens and its modification for newer K-mount bodies, I'm providing
some images involving this lens:

Here are two VS1 35-85/2.8's, the left one of which shows the extra
baffle, while the right one has been modified:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\1ofeach.jpg;

It is important, of course, to mask off completely the rest of the
lens when the extra baffle is being removed:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\lensmod.jpg;

It is also possible to remove the K-mount flange and then remove the
extra baffle after masking off only the flange:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\flangmod.jpg;

A description of the VS1 35-85/2.8 in a 1976 Vivitar Series 1
brochure:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\brchdscr.jpg;

Specifications for and a photo of the VS1 35-85/2.8 in the same
Vivitar Series 1 brochure::
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\brchspcs.jpg;

An ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1975:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\ad7510mp.jpg;

An ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1976:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\ad7607po.jpg;

An ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1979:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\ad7904mp.jpg;

Another ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1979:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\ad7907mp.jpg;

Fred





Re: The all new PDML FAQ..

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Dan Scott wrote:
 Is this one of those measurbating references?

Keep it up, and I'll ask about bokeh on the lenses when mounted to the
DSLR.. ;)

-- 
http://www.infotainment.org   - more fun than a poke in your eye.
http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.




Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Dr E D F Williams
When I see a sky with nice clouds I make a few exposures. Now I have a
library of beautiful skies. I use them from time to time to put clouds onto
images that have few or none. I used to do this in the darkroom, in my
youth, and later found it possible to do a creditable job in Photoshop. Use
the magic wand to select the sky and after that its like falling off a log.
Using a layer to change the contrast in some areas - say to improve shadow
detail is also very easy. Perhaps a few days studying the tutorials would be
profitable? I too remove spots, drying marks and dust with the rubber stamp
(cloning tool) - I've found it better than any of the other methods.

Don

Dr E D F Williams

http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams
Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery
Updated: March 30, 2002


- Original Message -
From: gfen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: OT: sliding away?


 On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:
  And, for the 1/10th of 1% that you actually use and enjoy, you're
  going thru all that sweat and tears?
  Nah, not me, thanks...

 I'm a longstanding computer geek, and every computer I've owned for the
 last 10 years or so has had a copy of Photoshop on it..Not because I
 needed it, but because it was expected.

 I've never bother to do anything of note in it, until recently.. The last
 few times I've turned the PC on, I've learned how to use curves and levels
 to make a nicer looking image, and how to clone out dust. Then I learned
 how to correctly resize images and DPI for printing.

 Is there more to photoshop? Oh yeah.
 Do I need to learn it? Nope. I can do everything I need to, and it was
 actually pretty easy to learn.


 --
 http://www.infotainment.org   - more fun than a poke in your
eye.
 http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.






Re: AP (16/11) - Pentax UK Confirms digital SLR launch plan

2002-11-11 Thread Daniel J. Matyola
Before we get our hopes up again, let's remember that we had a confirmed
plan to release a DSLR last year, which never escaped from the vapor.

zoomshot wrote:

 Straight from this weeks Amateur Photographer 'THISWEEK' section;

 PENTAX UK HAS CONFIRMED plans for the launch of a new flagship digital
 SLR next spring.




Re: Six feet under? (US TV)

2002-11-11 Thread Steve Desjardins
Yeah.  It's on either HBO or Showtime (I don't get either).  It's some
ensemble cast type drama about a family that owns a funeral home.  Never
seen it, but the critics have been kind ;-)


Steven Desjardins
Department of Chemistry
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450
(540) 458-8873
FAX: (540) 458-8878
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/11/02 09:03AM 
Six feet under? Is that a new commercial TV program? -- keith whaley

Ryan K. Brooks wrote:
 
 So was that a K1000 on screen this evening when whatshername quipped
 about buying a camera on ebay?
 
 R




Re: VS1 35-85/2.8 Lens Images

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

Hi Fred,

I think my browser hates your slashes.

Best,
Dan Scott




RE: AP (16/11) - Pentax UK Confirms digital SLR launch plan

2002-11-11 Thread Rob Brigham
Did we?  I know there are often rumours, but was one actually confirmed
by Pentax themselves?  I realise the MZ-D/MD-S/MR-52 was confirmed and
vanished, but that was 2 years ago, wasn't it?  Was there another one?

 -Original Message-
 From: Daniel J. Matyola [mailto:djm;stanleypmlaw.com] 
 Sent: 11 November 2002 16:15
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: AP (16/11) - Pentax UK Confirms digital SLR launch plan
 
 
 Before we get our hopes up again, let's remember that we had 
 a confirmed plan to release a DSLR last year, which never 
 escaped from the vapor.
 
 zoomshot wrote:
 
  Straight from this weeks Amateur Photographer 'THISWEEK' section;
 
  PENTAX UK HAS CONFIRMED plans for the launch of a new 
 flagship digital 
  SLR next spring.
 
 




Re: VS1 35-85/2.8 Lens Images

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
 I think my browser hates your slashes.

Oops - Sorry, Dan (and I also apologize to anyone else who tried
those links - g).  I've posted a pretty good mixture of forward
slashes and backslashes (the result of not totally transposing some
hard disk locations to the corresponding www URL's - g).  The
corrected URL's are appended below.  sheepish grin

Fred

+

Prompted by a recent thread involving the Vivitar Series 1 35-85/2.8
lens and its modification for newer K-mount bodies, I'm providing
some images involving this lens:

Here are two VS1 35-85/2.8's, the left one of which shows the extra
baffle, while the right one has been modified:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/1ofeach.jpg;

It is important, of course, to mask off completely the rest of the
lens when the extra baffle is being removed:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/lensmod.jpg;

It is also possible to remove the K-mount flange and then remove the
extra baffle after masking off only the flange:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/flangmod.jpg;

A description of the VS1 35-85/2.8 in a 1976 Vivitar Series 1
brochure:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/brchdscr.jpg;

Specifications for and a photo of the VS1 35-85/2.8 in the same
Vivitar Series 1 brochure::
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/brchspcs.jpg;

An ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1975:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/ad7510mp.jpg;

An ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1976:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/ad7607po.jpg;

An ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1979:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/ad7904mp.jpg;

Another ad for the VS1 35-85/2.8 from 1979:
http://www.cetussoft.com/pentax/v358528/ad7907mp.jpg;

+





Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:
 Huh? [C]loning to spot is outside my understanding. Please elucidate!

Using the clone tool to spot your prints for dust, hair, fingerprints,
etc. To say nothing of the ability to use the clone tool to remove power
lines, facial blemishes, your ex-girlfriend, etc.

:)

-- 
http://www.infotainment.org   - more fun than a poke in your eye.
http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.




Re: VS1 35-85/2.8 Lens Images

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 10:39  AM, Fred wrote:


I think my browser hates your slashes.


Oops - Sorry, Dan (and I also apologize to anyone else who tried
those links - g).  I've posted a pretty good mixture of forward
slashes and backslashes (the result of not totally transposing some
hard disk locations to the corresponding www URL's - g).  The
corrected URL's are appended below.  sheepish grin

Fred



S'ok. I needed to practice my typing anyway. :-)

What tool did you use to modify your baffles? It looks pretty clean. 
Did you repaint the newly exposed metal?

Dan Scott



Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 10:42  AM, gfen wrote:


On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:

Huh? [C]loning to spot is outside my understanding. Please 
elucidate!

Using the clone tool to spot your prints for dust, hair, 
fingerprints,
etc. To say nothing of the ability to use the clone tool to remove 
power
lines, facial blemishes, your ex-girlfriend, etc.

:)


Try the new bandaid brush in v.7, delightful. Doesn't do everything of 
course, but it goes to town on dust spots, fine scratches and loose 
fibers. Takes care of most of what I used the cloning stamp for.

Dan Scott



Re: Six feet under? (US TV)

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 10:18  AM, Steve Desjardins wrote:


Yeah.  It's on either HBO or Showtime (I don't get either).  It's some
ensemble cast type drama about a family that owns a funeral home.  
Never
seen it, but the critics have been kind ;-)


Steven Desjardins


They really dig it.

Dan Scott




FS: MZ-5n body w/ box, manual, etc.

2002-11-11 Thread Chris Brogden

I'm considering selling this body because I find I use my manual focus
stuff all the time.  If anyone is interested, make me an offer off-list
for an MZ-5n body with the AA Battery Grip Fg, the original strap,
eyepiece cover, body cover, manual and box.  Condition is EXC+.  There are
a couple very small marks on it that prevent it from being LNIB, but it's
functionally perfect and a very clean body.  Anyway, I'll consider the
offers and decide then if I'm going to sell it.

Thanks,

chris




Re: OT - Photography Tour -- Ever Gone?

2002-11-11 Thread eactivist
Thanks everyone for your replies (wish there'd been a few more even). I've read them 
all with a great deal of interest.

Certainly sounds like if I can find the right workshop/tour (in my price range) I 
would definitely get something out of it.

Thanks again, Doe aka Marnie Parker




Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Paul Stenquist
Any film of normal saturation and contrast is fine for lens testing. I
would probably use Fuji Provia 100F or Kodak Ektachrome 100S.
Paul Stenquist

Keith Whaley wrote:
 
 Paul Stenquist wrote:
 
  I would think that Velvia is not a good test for any lens. It has it's
  applications, and it is a worthy film in that it serves certain purposes
  very well. But it is so outside the mainstream in terms of contrast and
  saturation that it should not be used to benchmark lens performance.
  Paul Stenquist
 
 Be part of the solution, Paul, and recommend a film (or films) you
 feel WOULD be more suitable for lens quality testing, please.
 
 keith whaley
 
  Dario Bonazza 2 wrote:
  
   According to comparative tests made by AOHC member Carlo Lastrucci, the 77
   Limited is not as good as FA* 85/1.4, since contrast is excessive, at least
   for Velvia film (shades are almost always deep blacks) and color rendition
   is cold, too much different from all other Pentax glass, including other
   Limited lenses. Resolution of the 77mm is rather close to that of the
   85/1.4, but the 85mm is better at most apertures. The only true advantage of
   the 77mm vs. the 85/1.4 FA* is its size.
  
   Cheers,
  
   Dario Bonazza
   
   http://www.dariobonazza.com
  
Wayne wrote:
   
   
 for general portaiture and landscapes
 which of these is the better lens
 which is better optically
 what is a good used price
 just curious cos they are both on ebay at the moment




Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Paul Stenquist
Perhaps outside the mainstream is a poor choice of words. But I would
think that for lens testing, one would want a film of average contrast
and saturation, so that differences are more readily apparent. 
Paul

Rob Brigham wrote:
 
 I would never accuse Velvia of being 'outside the mainstream', nor would
 just about most people who take landscapes IMHO.  It may be an extreme,
 but its one of the most used slide films in the world and is pretty much
 the definition of mainstream to me.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Keith Whaley [mailto:keith_w;dslextreme.com]
 
  Paul Stenquist wrote:
  
   I would think that Velvia is not a good test for any lens.
  It has it's
   applications, and it is a worthy film in that it serves certain
   purposes very well. But it is so outside the mainstream in terms of
   contrast and saturation that it should not be used to
  benchmark lens
   performance. Paul Stenquist
 
  Be part of the solution, Paul, and recommend a film (or
  films) you feel WOULD be more suitable for lens quality
  testing, please.
 
  keith whaley




Re: VS1 35-85/2.8 Lens Images

2002-11-11 Thread Fred
Dan:

 What tool did you use to modify your baffles?

Well, the best way to do it would be with a bench grinder.  However,
due to the tools available to me (or lack thereof), my mods were
made using just a hacksaw and a fine-toothed file (to finish it
off).

 It looks pretty clean.

...due to the beauty of a low-res scan - g.  Seriously, both
mods came out OK, considering the skill (g) of the modifier.

 Did you repaint the newly exposed metal?

I just went over the bare metal (from the cut itself, and from any
nicks in the black paint that I made with the hacksaw or file)
with a black magic marker. (Touching it up with flat black paint
would have been the proper way to go, but using a black magic
marker worked OK for me.)

By the way, I did not remove 100% of the extra generous baffle
that the Vivitar engineers provided back in 1975 - I did leave a
short length near the aperture coupling lever.  This is similar to
the way there is a short baffle (I think it's really a mechanical
protection for the aperture coupling lever) on jen-you-wine Pentax
K-mounts.  Doing this also simplified the cutting, since I didn't
have to hacksaw so close to the aperture coupling lever - g.

Fred





Re: Agfa Portrait 160 XPS

2002-11-11 Thread Bruce Dayton
Albano,

I shot some a while back and was not that happy with it.  I shot it at
160.  More recently, I was talking to an Agfa rep (complaining) and he
told me to rate it at 125.  I did so and was much more pleased with
it.  So based on my test and the Agfa rep, you should rate it at 125.

My PUG entry this month was one of those test shots at 125:
http://pug.komkon.org/02nov/bkd0211a.html


Bruce



Monday, November 11, 2002, 6:37:05 AM, you wrote:

AG I know we have some Agfa fans in the list (I'm between
AG them).
AG I've bought two rolls of this film in 120 format to
AG try it.
AG I wanted to know what EI do you suggest, 160, 125 or
AG 100? Comments on film grain, colors, etc?
AG All experiences welcome
AG Regards



AG =
AG Albano Garcia
AG El Pibe Asahi

AG __
AG Do you Yahoo!?
AG U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
AG http://launch.yahoo.com/u2




Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Pål Jensen
Paul wrote:


 Any film of normal saturation and contrast is fine for lens testing. I
 would probably use Fuji Provia 100F or Kodak Ektachrome 100S.
 Paul Stenquist


I wouldn't use any 100ISO film. Particuarly not Provia 100F; a film that trade 
sharpness for fine grain.

Pål




LX for sale in UK AP

2002-11-11 Thread Cotty
Spotted for sale in AP

'Pentax LX plus FA/1W prism finder, grip, perfect working order, used 
regularly. 150 GBP 01429 422058 (UK phone number)




Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Keith Whaley
Aha! I'd like that, I just intuit! g

Thanks for the explanation.

keith

gfen wrote:
 
 On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Keith Whaley wrote:
  Huh? [C]loning to spot is outside my understanding. Please elucidate!
 
 Using the clone tool to spot your prints for dust, hair, fingerprints,
 etc. To say nothing of the ability to use the clone tool to remove power
 lines, facial blemishes, your ex-girlfriend, etc.
 
 :)




Re: LX for sale in UK AP

2002-11-11 Thread titides
how much in euro ?

thierry

Cotty a écrit:


Spotted for sale in AP

'Pentax LX plus FA/1W prism finder, grip, perfect working order, used 
regularly. 150 GBP 01429 422058 (UK phone number)


 







Re: LX for sale in UK AP

2002-11-11 Thread Jostein
Welcome back, Cotty. :-)
Wish I could have grabbed that one...
Jostein
- Original Message -
From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Pentax List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:27 PM
Subject: LX for sale in UK AP


 Spotted for sale in AP

 'Pentax LX plus FA/1W prism finder, grip, perfect working order,
used
 regularly. 150 GBP 01429 422058 (UK phone number)






Vs: OT: Is BOKEH real?!?! Was -- Re: If You had to pick one lens. . .

2002-11-11 Thread Raimo Korhonen
Because they are not made the same way - Cosina lenses are cheap, Voigtländer lenses 
are expensive, although cheaper than Leica glass.
All the best!
Raimo
Personal photography homepage at http://www.uusikaupunki.fi/~raikorho

-Alkuperäinen viesti-
Lähettäjä: gfen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Vastaanottaja: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Päivä: 11. marraskuuta 2002 16:06
Aihe: Re: OT: Is BOKEH real?!?! Was -- Re: If You had to pick one lens. . .



snip
I thought the new Voightlanders were respected cameras and quality lenses?
If this is the case, then why-oh-why can't all Cosina lenses be as respected?






Re: Vs: OT: Is BOKEH real?!?! Was -- Re: If You had to pick onelens. . .

2002-11-11 Thread gfen
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Raimo Korhonen wrote:
 Because they are not made the same way - Cosina lenses are cheap,
 Voigtländer lenses are expensive, although cheaper than Leica glass.

Someday I'd like to own a rangefinder, although truthfully, I don't think
I'd find much advantage in one...

-- 
http://www.infotainment.org   - more fun than a poke in your eye.
http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.




Odp: LX for sale in UK AP

2002-11-11 Thread £ukasz Kacperczyk
You sure about the price? That's about $225 and that would make it a steal.
Now, if only I had tese $225 in my pocket... sigh

Lukasz

- Original Message -
From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Pentax List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:27 PM
Subject: LX for sale in UK AP


 Spotted for sale in AP

 'Pentax LX plus FA/1W prism finder, grip, perfect working order, used
 regularly. 150 GBP 01429 422058 (UK phone number)





Re: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro

2002-11-11 Thread Paul Stenquist
I sort of miss Mafud, but Kirkland Ramsey is another story. Much more
belligerent I'd say. I'm still not sure they were one and the same,
although some evidence seemed to suggest that.
Paul

Bob Walkden wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
  Anybody who has two email accounts subscribed to the pdml,
  and uses one to respond to his comments from the other
  is way over the top for me.
 
 young Brad has a long way to go before he can be elevated to the
 Pantheon. Suda Mafud, you may recall, had more avatars than Vishnu and
 would use them all to support his outlandish arguments. So Mafud would
 get involved in an argument, then Kirkland Ramsey III (Presbyterian)
 would join in support but - presumably to fool everybody - would
 disagree on some minor point, then a 3rd incarnation - whose name I've
 forgotten, unfortunately - would chastise Kirkland for joining in the
 Mafud bashing. It was magnificent at times. Imagine, to steal an image
 from P.G. Wodehouse, an ancient mastodon bellowing at its own
 reflection across the primordial swamp, and you get the general drift.
 
 Mafud was a force of nature.
 
 ---
 
  Bob




Re: OT: Is BOKEH real?!?! Was -- Re: If You had to pick one lens. . .

2002-11-11 Thread Rob Studdert
On 11 Nov 2002 at 17:08, gfen wrote:

 Is it too much to ask that Vivitar buys Leitz just so I can hear the
 collective howl of a million leicaphiles?

It's Leica Camera AG now, there was a little yelp when the French Hermes 
International bought a great chunk a year or so back.

http://www.leica-camera.com/unternehmen/presse/data/01907/index_e.html
Not for distribution in the United States of America, Canada, Australia or 
Japan. :-)

The current boss of Cosina has apparently taken a very personal interest in the 
Voigtlander name and product range development and photographers feedback. He 
has allowed a lot of development and production to occur that a less involved 
boss may not have, fortunately it's all been of great benefit to the company. 
Great foresight, not like Pentax.

Cheers,

Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html




Re: [OT] I'm back :)

2002-11-11 Thread William Kane
Hmmm,

  My computer doesn't appear to HAVE a J drive . ..

Bill

William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - 
From: Lon Williamson 
Subject: Re: [OT] I'm back :)


 

Does this mean you slam any cute lil' kitty pix posted
on PUG?  Grin.
   


Find me a kitty picture cuter than this..

file:///J:/photo/puppies/leica_tmax.html

Pentax content:
Shot on a Zoom 105 Super


William Robb



 


--
William Kane
  http://www.KaneScience.com
IABT Advisory Board Member
  http://www.iabt.net
Tinley Park High School
  6111 W. 175th Street
  Tinley Park, IL  60477
  V: 708/532-1900 ext 3909
  http://www.bhsd228.com






Re[2]: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro

2002-11-11 Thread Bob Walkden
Hi,

 I sort of miss Mafud, but Kirkland Ramsey is another story. Much more
 belligerent I'd say. I'm still not sure they were one and the same,
 although some evidence seemed to suggest that.

we could put some of their emails through a stylistic analyzer - the
type of thing they use to decide that Shakespeare was really Queen
Elizabeth I. That should sort it out. Or perhaps it would tell us that
Mafud wrote Shakespeare - that seems to be the usual result of these
things.

---

 Bob  




RE: [OT] I'm back :)

2002-11-11 Thread Shaun Canning
URL no good William. 

Shaun Canning
Archaeology Department
La Trobe University, Bundoora, 
Victoria, 3086.

Phone: 0414-967 644
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: William Robb [mailto:w_robb;accesscomm.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, 12 November 2002 9:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] I'm back :)


- Original Message -
From: Lon Williamson
Subject: Re: [OT] I'm back :)


 Does this mean you slam any cute lil' kitty pix posted
 on PUG?  Grin.

Find me a kitty picture cuter than this..

file:///J:/photo/puppies/leica_tmax.html

Pentax content:
Shot on a Zoom 105 Super


William Robb




Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Pentxuser
Guys if you have limited experience with photoshop, I highly recommend 
photodeluxe which is also made by adobe and comes free with many decent Epson 
printers and various scanners. It really is simple to use and guides you 
through most steps with ease. It can do most of what photoshop can do 
(including layers) and generally do it easier (at least for beginners) Once 
you get good at it, set it on advanced mode and it's even closer to photoshop.

Vic 


In a message dated 11/11/02 11:39:16 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 gfen wrote, re Photoshop:



= snipped =

 Seriously, its pretty easy to do the basics.. I'm still figuring out the
 in depth parts of curves and levels, but cloning to spot is a godsend.

Huh? [C]loning to spot is outside my understanding. Please elucidate!

keith whaley 




Greywolf Update II

2002-11-11 Thread frank theriault
Hi,

I just sent out an e-mail to everyone who contacted me on or off-list,
who's interested in contributing a few dollars to send to Tom.  If you
didn't get an off-list e-mail from me with the subject line Greywolf
Test e-Mail, and you want to contribute, please contact me so I can add
your name.

If you've already contacted me, and didn't get the above-mentioned
e-mail, then I've missed you, so definitely contact me!

So far (including me), there are 19 potential contributors, so that
should be a tidy little sum to help out Tom, but I hope more people come
on board.  If you do contact me off-list, please put the word Greywolf
in the subject line, as I'm filtering this stuff into a separate folder,
to keep things straight.

BTW, a full accounting will be provided, of course...

cheers,
frank

--
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert
Oppenheimer





Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Pål Jensen
Paul wrote:

 Interesting. I wasn't aware of any lack of sharpness in Provia 100F, but
 I've only recently tried it to any great extent.


Its a controversial issue but many apart from me also find the film somewhat fuzzy. 
Like someone has been applying a softening filter. It has high resolution though. I 
suspect the film has low accutance and thats whats makes it soft.


 I've been an Ektachrome
 user for many years, but in my reply I was trying to be even handed and
 mentioned both Ektachme and Fuji variants. Which transparency film
 provides the most apparent sharpness? 

Kodachrome offer the most apparent sharpness follwed by Velvia.

Pål





Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Pentxuser

In a message dated 11/11/02 10:05:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I've never bother to do anything of note in it, until recently.. The last
few times I've turned the PC on, I've learned how to use curves and levels
to make a nicer looking image, and how to clone out dust. Then I learned
how to correctly resize images and DPI for printing.

Is there more to photoshop? Oh yeah.
Do I need to learn it? Nope. I can do everything I need to, and it was
actually pretty easy to learn. 

You really should do yourself a favour and learn to do more with photoshop. 
It is an incredible tool. In fact, I would say it is one of my most valuable 
pieces of photographic equipment I have.I spend a lot of time just playing 
with it and learning various techniques etc. If you are lucky enough to have 
a version you may as well get the most out of it...
Vic 




Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Pentxuser
Might be an idea to do a whole month of our pets
Vic 




Re: 200mm macro: FA* vs A*

2002-11-11 Thread Feroze Kistan

Maybe more. I have a catalogue dated 2000
that lists a SMC FA* Macro 200mm f/4.0 ED(IF)
and a SMC A* Macro 200mm f/4.0 but no 24-90
or 31mm limited and thats the most recent one
I have

Feroze
- Original Message -
From: Herb Chong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: 200mm macro: FA* vs A*


 Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I actually do remember us having this conversation.  What a mind!
Anyhow,
 I'm just looking now and I don't see a date at all.  Since it's missing a
 Macro and the FA 24-90mm we know it isn't up to date.  Nice to have one
 that
 was though eh?

 Brad.

 sounds like it is the same as the one i have. there is no 31mm Limited
 either, right? it's close to 2 years out of date.

 Herb...






Re: [OT] I'm back :)

2002-11-11 Thread William Robb

- Original Message - 
From: William Kane 
Subject: Re: [OT] I'm back :)


 Hmmm,
 
My computer doesn't appear to HAVE a J drive . ..

HAR!!

http://www.reginakennelclub.ca/photo/puppies/leica_tmax.html

Teach me to send a URL out from a website I am working on.

William Robb





Re: [OT] I'm back :)

2002-11-11 Thread William Robb

- Original Message - 
From: Shaun Canning 
Subject: RE: [OT] I'm back :)


 URL no good William. 

Ya, I know...
http://www.reginakennelclub.ca/photo/puppies/leica_tmax.html

DOH!!

William Robb




Re: VS1 35-85/2.8 Lens Images

2002-11-11 Thread John Mustarde
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:42:21 -0500, you wrote:

Prompted by a recent thread involving the Vivitar Series 1 35-85/2.8
lens and its modification for newer K-mount bodies, I'm providing
some images involving this lens:

Here are two VS1 35-85/2.8's, the left one of which shows the extra
baffle, while the right one has been modified:
http://www.cetussoft.com\pentax\v358528\1ofeach.jpg;

I modified the baffle on my Vivitar Series 1 90-180/4.5 macro much the
same way you did the VS1 35-85. I used a thin file as the cutting
tool, and also left the hump at the aperture lever.

--
John Mustarde
www.photolin.com




Re: What do you carry with you

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Thursday, November 7, 2002, at 01:21  AM, Brad Dobo wrote:


Is this directed to me or the person that typee the   I keep a 
tripod in
the trunk.?



It was directed at Eleanor.

Dan Scott




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread William Robb

- Original Message -
From: Vic


Subject: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?


 Might be an idea to do a whole month of our pets

This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but
The PUG, as I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible,
within the scope of it being a Pentax equipment website.
I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack
of inclusivity.
A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
We don't all have a pet.

William Robb




Re: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro

2002-11-11 Thread Norm Baugher
William Robb wrote:
Matt Grene. Publisher of Bio-Agrinetics, or some such. INSERT THEME 
FROM MISSION IMPOSSIBLE HERE





Re: Help! M42 to K adapter-get it off my ZX-5n, please

2002-11-11 Thread Debra Wilborn
Well, dude, since yer in Texas, I can give you my
ultra-hick solutions.  Pitch the little tool and find
a pipe wrench.  Return the adapter and tell the shop
it's too tight.  Or, take a steel file to the adapter
until it does fit.

Deb in TX (booger-free)


--- Dan Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My screwmount to kmount adapter just came from BH.
 
 Screwed it on to the Jupiter-9, no problem. Put that
 on the ZX-5n, 
 pretty iffy, can't tell if it's on all the way or
 not cause the focus 
 scale isn't really lined up where it should be.
 
 Go to take the lens off and try again, the lens
 comes off alright, but 
 the adapter is fast on the ZX-5n. The tool that
 comes with the adpater 
 turns it a little, but not enough.
 
 Anyone have this happen before? Tell me you didn't
 have to take it to a 
 service center to get it off, please...
 
 Dan Scott (boogered in Texas)
 


__
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2




Hey Mishka!

2002-11-11 Thread frank theriault
I got your e-mail re:  wanting to contribute something towards Tom.  I
just sent a couple of e-mails out to the list of those interested, but
yours keeps getting bounced.

Could you send me another e-mail off-list so I can update my address
book?

thanks,
frank

--
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert
Oppenheimer





Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Pentxuser

In a message dated 11/11/02 6:05:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but

The PUG, as I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible,

within the scope of it being a Pentax equipment website.

I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack

of inclusivity.

A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.

We don't all have a pet.


William Robb

 

Yes this is true...sad but true...
Vic 




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Daniel J. Matyola
We have allowed everyone to interpret the theme for themselves in the
past.  If one truely doesn't have a pet, a little imagination might lead
them to a more interesting subject than a lot of beautiful dogs and vile
cats.

Dan

William Robb wrote:

 This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but
 The PUG, as I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible,
 within the scope of it being a Pentax equipment website.
 I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack
 of inclusivity.
 A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
 We don't all have a pet.

 William Robb




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread frank theriault
I hear ya, but it doesn't have to be the photographer's pet.  I don't
know about other places, but around here, you can't walk down the street
without seeing someone walking a dog, cat (really!), ferret, parrot or
whatever.  Surely that would give rise to plenty of photo ops for those
who don't wait hand and foot on an animal in their home.  You could do
your pet (how bad does that sound? vbg) or someone else's...

regards,
frank

William Robb wrote:



 This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but
 The PUG, as I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible,
 within the scope of it being a Pentax equipment website.
 I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack
 of inclusivity.
 A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
 We don't all have a pet.

 William Robb

--
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert
Oppenheimer





RE: [OT] I'm back :)

2002-11-11 Thread Len Paris
Erm, how do we get to your J: drive?

Len
---

 -Original Message-
 From: William Robb [mailto:w_robb;accesscomm.ca] 
 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:37 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [OT] I'm back :)
 
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Lon Williamson 
 Subject: Re: [OT] I'm back :)
 
 
  Does this mean you slam any cute lil' kitty pix posted
  on PUG?  Grin.
 
 Find me a kitty picture cuter than this..
 
file:///J:/photo/puppies/leica_tmax.html

Pentax content:
Shot on a Zoom 105 Super


William Robb






Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Rob Studdert
On 11 Nov 2002 at 17:08, William Robb wrote:

 I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack
 of inclusivity.
 A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
 We don't all have a pet.

I could train a cockroach for a few days, would he qualify :-)

Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread frank theriault
Hey, Dan,

Didn't you mean interPET?

Sorry, I know that was a bad one...  vbg

-frank

Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

 We have allowed everyone to interpret the theme for themselves in the
 past.  If one truely doesn't have a pet, a little imagination might lead
 them to a more interesting subject than a lot of beautiful dogs and vile
 cats.


--
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist
fears it is true. -J. Robert
Oppenheimer





Way OT (MPG video capture)

2002-11-11 Thread Steve Larson
Hi All,
 Sorry for the off topic, but I can`t seem to get a real answer from
anyone, and the PDML has some pretty smart cookies onboard.
 Anyone know if I can take a video camera tape and convert it to
an MPeg? Also, from that MPeg can you save a still photo from it?
Are there programs out there that can do these things?
Reply to stevenlarsonadelphia,net  so the list doesn`t get
clogged up.
Many thanks,
Steve Larson
Redondo Beach, California




RE: Help! M42 to K adapter-get it off my ZX-5n, please

2002-11-11 Thread Shaun Canning
If all else fails, hit everything within arms reach with said
pipe-wrench

:):):):)

Cheers

Shaun Canning
Archaeology Department
La Trobe University, Bundoora,
Victoria, 3086.

Phone: 0414-967 644
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: Debra Wilborn [mailto:mechadebzilla;yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 12 November 2002 10:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Help! M42 to K adapter-get it off my ZX-5n, please

Well, dude, since yer in Texas, I can give you my
ultra-hick solutions.  Pitch the little tool and find
a pipe wrench.  Return the adapter and tell the shop
it's too tight.  Or, take a steel file to the adapter
until it does fit.

Deb in TX (booger-free)


--- Dan Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My screwmount to kmount adapter just came from BH.

 Screwed it on to the Jupiter-9, no problem. Put that
 on the ZX-5n,
 pretty iffy, can't tell if it's on all the way or
 not cause the focus
 scale isn't really lined up where it should be.

 Go to take the lens off and try again, the lens
 comes off alright, but
 the adapter is fast on the ZX-5n. The tool that
 comes with the adpater
 turns it a little, but not enough.

 Anyone have this happen before? Tell me you didn't
 have to take it to a
 service center to get it off, please...

 Dan Scott (boogered in Texas)



__
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2




RE: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Shaun Canning
I'm happy to share my dog with anyone who wants himanywhere, anytime,
anyplace for any reason... all 125 pounds of him

Cheers

Shaun Canning
Archaeology Department
La Trobe University, Bundoora,
Victoria, 3086.

Phone: 0414-967 644
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:Pentxuser;aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 12 November 2002 10:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?


In a message dated 11/11/02 6:05:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but

The PUG, as I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible,

within the scope of it being a Pentax equipment website.

I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack

of inclusivity.

A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.

We don't all have a pet.


William Robb

 

Yes this is true...sad but true...
Vic




RE: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Len Paris
How about two-legged pets?

Len
---

 -Original Message-
 From: frank theriault [mailto:knarf.theriault;sympatico.ca] 
 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:19 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?
 
 
 I hear ya, but it doesn't have to be the photographer's pet.  
 I don't know about other places, but around here, you can't 
 walk down the street without seeing someone walking a dog, 
 cat (really!), ferret, parrot or whatever.  Surely that would 
 give rise to plenty of photo ops for those who don't wait 
 hand and foot on an animal in their home.  You could do your 
 pet (how bad does that sound? vbg) or someone else's...
 
 regards,
 frank
 
 William Robb wrote:
 
 
 
  This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but 
 The PUG, as 
  I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible, within 
 the scope of 
  it being a Pentax equipment website. I recall a few ideas 
 being shot 
  down for the PUG due to the lack of inclusivity.
  A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
  We don't all have a pet.
 
  William Robb
 
 --
 The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. 
 The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer
 
 
 





Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Christian Skofteland

 Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
  We have allowed everyone to interpret the theme for themselves in the
  past.  If one truely doesn't have a pet, a little imagination might lead
  them to a more interesting subject than a lot of beautiful dogs and vile
  cats.


My imagination leads me into some interesting ideas for the term pet

Christian




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread frank theriault
Or legless, if ya likes fishies or snakes...

Len Paris wrote:

 How about two-legged pets?


--
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert
Oppenheimer





Re[2]: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Bob Walkden
Hi,

like this, you mean?

http://www.peterfetterman.com/artists/hopkins/hopkins_pic02.html

---

 Bob  

Monday, November 11, 2002, 11:14:28 PM, you wrote:

 We have allowed everyone to interpret the theme for themselves in the
 past.  If one truely doesn't have a pet, a little imagination might lead
 them to a more interesting subject than a lot of beautiful dogs and vile
 cats.

 Dan




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Ken Archer
Well let's see.  There are four-legged pets and two-legged (bird-like) 
pets.  There are two-legged human pets and don't forget pet rocks 
and  Everybody has to have some kind of pet even if it's just a pet 
peeve.

On Monday 11 November 2002 11:08 pm, William Robb wrote:
 This is only meant to be a semi serious objection, but
 The PUG, as I understand it is to be as inclusive as possible,
 within the scope of it being a Pentax equipment website.
 I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack
 of inclusivity.
 A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
 We don't all have a pet.

 William Robb

-- 
Kenneth Archer, San Antonio, Texas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




RE: Way OT (MPG video capture)

2002-11-11 Thread Len Paris
Yes you can. That subject was covered fairly thoroughly on TechTV very
recently.  Check their web site at:

  http://www.techtv.com

Look in the archives of the Screensavers or Call For Help programs.

Involves having a video capture card and a program that will convert the
capture to MPEG format.

Len
---

 -Original Message-
 From: Steve Larson [mailto:stevenlarson;adelphia.net] 
 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:20 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Way OT (MPG video capture)
 
 
 Hi All,
  Sorry for the off topic, but I can`t seem to get a real 
 answer from anyone, and the PDML has some pretty smart 
 cookies onboard.  Anyone know if I can take a video camera 
 tape and convert it to an MPeg? Also, from that MPeg can you 
 save a still photo from it? Are there programs out there that 
 can do these things? Reply to stevenlarson@adelphia,net  so 
 the list doesn`t get clogged up. Many thanks, Steve Larson 
 Redondo Beach, California
 
 





Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Herb Chong
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
You really should do yourself a favour and learn to do more with
photoshop. 
It is an incredible tool. In fact, I would say it is one of my most
valuable 
pieces of photographic equipment I have.I spend a lot of time just playing 
with it and learning various techniques etc. If you are lucky enough to
have 
a version you may as well get the most out of it...
Vic 

look online at Amazon. there are at least two books only on photo
retouching using Photoshop and almost all of the rest have something to say
about it.

Herb




Re: OT: sliding away?

2002-11-11 Thread Herb Chong
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Guys if you have limited experience with photoshop, I highly recommend 
photodeluxe which is also made by adobe and comes free with many decent
Epson 
printers and various scanners. It really is simple to use and guides you 
through most steps with ease. It can do most of what photoshop can do 
(including layers) and generally do it easier (at least for beginners) Once

you get good at it, set it on advanced mode and it's even closer to
photoshop.

Vic 


although not discontinued yet, Photodeluxe is pretty close to being.
Photoshop Elements is the replacement.

Herb




Re: Way OT (MPG video capture)

2002-11-11 Thread Steve Larson
Hi Len,
 Thanks for the info, will check it out now. 
Steve Larson
Redondo Beach, California
- Original Message - 
From: Len Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: Way OT (MPG video capture)


 Yes you can. That subject was covered fairly thoroughly on TechTV very
 recently.  Check their web site at:
 
   http://www.techtv.com
 
 Look in the archives of the Screensavers or Call For Help programs.
 
 Involves having a video capture card and a program that will convert the
 capture to MPEG format.
 
 Len
 ---
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Steve Larson [mailto:stevenlarson;adelphia.net] 
  Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:20 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Way OT (MPG video capture)
  
  
  Hi All,
   Sorry for the off topic, but I can`t seem to get a real 
  answer from anyone, and the PDML has some pretty smart 
  cookies onboard.  Anyone know if I can take a video camera 
  tape and convert it to an MPeg? Also, from that MPeg can you 
  save a still photo from it? Are there programs out there that 
  can do these things? Reply to stevenlarson@adelphia,net  so 
  the list doesn`t get clogged up. Many thanks, Steve Larson 
  Redondo Beach, California
  
  
 
 




DC PDML Outing #4 (was RE: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro)

2002-11-11 Thread tom
 -Original Message-
 From: Paul Stenquist [mailto:pnstenquist;comcast.net]


 I sort of miss Mafud, but Kirkland Ramsey is another story.
 Much more
 belligerent I'd say.

Just a little note supporting the argument that the *vast* majority of
PDMLers are decent folks...yesterday the DC chapter of the PDML got
together down at the Smithsonian for Kennerly's Photo du Jour
exhibit. Geoff Moes, Wendy, Mark Lindamood and myself showed up. I've
already stated that Geoff and Wendy are pretty good folks (I really
meant it in Wendy's case, HAR!), and it turns out, not surprisingly,
that Mark's a good guy too. I had a good time hanging out with them.

While some of us weren't blown away by the Kennerly photos, everyone
seemed to enjoy the L.A. shots, and agreed that the print quality was
outstanding.

All the prints (except maybe the giant 60x70's) were printed on warm
toned fiber. They weren't dry-mounted, so some were a bit wavy, which
bothers me.

Afterwards we walked to Chinatown, took a few pics here and there and
found some dim sum.

So, for those anti-socialites who failed to show up, you missed a good
time.

tv





Christmas cards

2002-11-11 Thread Simon King
Hi All,
I noticed that Don mentioned taking pictures for a Christmas card. I've been
thinking of making some this year.
Do other PDMLer do this? If so, any hints or tips?

Cheers,
Simon

Dr E D F Williams wrote:
 in time for new pictures for this year's Christmas card.





FS: 135/1.8 85/1.4

2002-11-11 Thread JTodd19261
135/1.8 A*   near mint$1200
85/1.4  A*Ex+ $850
200/2.8 A*   near mint$600

Please contact me off list for more info.  Thanks.

Jay




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Herb Chong
here are some of mine.

http://users.bestweb.net/~hchong/Random/Fish.htm

Herb...




Re: DC PDML Outing #4 (was RE: Filter/Hood question about 100mm macro)

2002-11-11 Thread Christian Skofteland
 So, for those anti-socialites who failed to show up, you missed a good
 time.

 tv

OUCH!

I did see Geoff and Wendy this afternoon at ACE dropping off a truckload of 
film.  Tom, I'm surprised you didn't scare him away from there! ;-)

Christian




Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Christian Skofteland
On Monday 11 November 2002 19:13, Herb Chong wrote:
 here are some of mine.

 http://users.bestweb.net/~hchong/Random/Fish.htm

 Herb...

Those are nice shots!  What technique do you use.  My Oscars are a bit bigger 
than your fish and I've had issues (lots of issues) trying to photograph them.

Christian




Re: fa 85mm 1.4 vs 77mm limited

2002-11-11 Thread Alan Chan
I can tolerate the whirring feel on the F* 300/4.5, but I really
don't like it on most of the other clutchless autofocus lenses
I've tried.


Since you brought up this issue, my Limited lenses have been becoming 
noiser, so to my F*300/4.5. This is entirely you fault.  ;-)

regards,
Alan Chan

_
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



Re: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread Dan Scott

On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 06:18  PM, Rob Studdert wrote:


On 11 Nov 2002 at 17:08, William Robb wrote:


I recall a few ideas being shot down for the PUG due to the lack
of inclusivity.
A pets gallery may fall under that umbrella.
We don't all have a pet.


I could train a cockroach for a few days, would he qualify :-)

Rob Studdert



You'd have to cuddle. Pets and pet owners cuddle. What would you train 
him to do?

Dan Scott



RE: Have we ever done people's pets on PUG?

2002-11-11 Thread tom
 -Original Message-
 From: Norm Baugher [mailto:nbaugher;earthlink.net]
 
 
 I personally have never done anyone's pet.

Livestock?

tv






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