subject:"Re\: Message from Henry Posner, Part I"

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 4:54 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 Example - what if I bring my camera to the local camera store in
 Regina, SK.  I tell them I can't get the histogram to display properly
 and the camera picks it own focus point.  The tall bald man with the
 mustache behind the counter brings out the manual and shows it to me
 saying See it's your fault, you sniveling low-life excuse for a
 tapeworm.  Next time read the manual and go crawl back up in the
 butthole you came from if you can find it.


 You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.
 We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..


Thank you. Kind sir.

Tom C.

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

 A point that Tom also conveniently ignores, when assigning blame, is that THE 
 AIRLINE
 has to sell a product people will buy.  As the great American public has 
 consistently
 demonstrated, they will buy the product at the cheapest price point, no 
 matter what
 other drawbacks there are.  That means that THE AIRLINE will do everything it 
 can to
 keep the base price down, even if this means add-on fees for checked baggage. 
  That
 same spirit of cheapness is why people will try and bring on too many (or too 
 large)
 carry-on items - they aren't prepared to pay an extra $10 for comfort, and so 
 they
 make everybody else suffer.  But I would certainly hate to be the agent that 
 had to
 tell the worst abusers that they couldn't take *that* on board.


I have to disagree with that analysis, in part. Of course people want
things at the cheapest price point, but they also realize that prices
do go up.  What people don't want to do is pay an EXTRA fee for
something that for the last 60 years appeared to be FREE.  The smart
thing for the airlines to have done is to increase ticket prices by
$10/$20 for every single passenger, a hidden luggage fee. Prices go up
from time-to-time anyway.

Everyone would be paying for checked luggage, whether they checked it
or not, and most people would not even notice unless it pushed the
price upward of an even $100 or $200.  On higher priced tickets it
would go virtually unnoticed. The airlines would have come out ahead,
they would not have to handle the additional burden of an additional
transaction, credit card processing, software changes, every single
thing with regard to luggage would have stayed the same. Many people
would still check their luggage, and overhead bins would be less
crowded.

Tom

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Re: [SPAM] Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-06 Thread Larry Colen



On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:54 AM, William Robb wrote:


You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.

The planned parenthood poster child.


We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..

Actually, one of the things that keeps counter sales people busy is  
showing customers how to use their cameras. For some reason, no one  
has ever really read their owners manuals.


I don't know about other brands of cameras, but the Pentax owners  
manuals are absolute shite.
I've read mine, multiple times, and the only documentation I've found  
less useful is that from Apple.


The manuals seem to be aimed at second graders that barely know which  
end of a camera to look through, and barely cover when the features  
might be useful, without saying a word about what they actually do.  
They might be OK for someone that doesn't know their aperture from a  
hole in the ground who is happy dropping a kilobuck on a large, heavy  
point and shoot, but woe betides the person who is actually trying to  
learn to use a camera from the user manual.


--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: [SPAM] Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

Mark!

Lary Colen wrote:

They might be OK for someone that doesn't know their aperture from a
hole in the ground...

I have to say in a childish way, this is doubly funny.

Tom

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote:

 On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:54 AM, William Robb wrote:

 You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.

 The planned parenthood poster child.

 We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..

 Actually, one of the things that keeps counter sales people busy is
 showing customers how to use their cameras. For some reason, no one has ever
 really read their owners manuals.

 I don't know about other brands of cameras, but the Pentax owners manuals
 are absolute shite.
 I've read mine, multiple times, and the only documentation I've found less
 useful is that from Apple.

 The manuals seem to be aimed at second graders that barely know which end of
 a camera to look through, and barely cover when the features might be
 useful, without saying a word about what they actually do. They might be OK
 for someone that doesn't know their aperture from a hole in the ground who
 is happy dropping a kilobuck on a large, heavy point and shoot, but woe
 betides the person who is actually trying to learn to use a camera from the
 user manual.

 --
 Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-06 Thread John Francis

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:03:49PM -0700, Tom C wrote:
 
 I have to disagree with that analysis, in part. Of course people want
 things at the cheapest price point, but they also realize that prices
 do go up.  What people don't want to do is pay an EXTRA fee for
 something that for the last 60 years appeared to be FREE.  The smart
 thing for the airlines to have done is to increase ticket prices by
 $10/$20 for every single passenger, a hidden luggage fee. Prices go up
 from time-to-time anyway.

Unfortunately that aproach doesn't work of routes with more than one
choice of airline. Easy consumer access to sites such as Travelocity
or Expedia lets potential customers see the price for each carrier.
As soon as one airline finds a way to lower the base price for a
route by any means (usually by dropping some basic amenity), the other
airlines all seem to respond with lower prices in a very short time -
something they would not need to do if customers were prepared to pay
extra for the amenity in question.   But the single biggest factor
that seems to determine how well an airline does in selling seats is
the price it charges for each seat - price trumps everything else.

This all gets complicated by the variable pricing strategy used to
sell airline tickets - the airline's goal is to fill all the seats
at the highest price for each seat, so the price will go up as the
plane gets fuller, and down if there are too many empty seats left. 


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

I've long thought that if airlines simply sold seats based upon what
it REALLY cost them to fly, instead of giving $100 flights
cross-country and charging somestimes an additional $300/$400 to fly
the last 150 mile leg of a trip, they'd be better off.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 12:51 PM, John Francis jo...@panix.com wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:03:49PM -0700, Tom C wrote:

 I have to disagree with that analysis, in part. Of course people want
 things at the cheapest price point, but they also realize that prices
 do go up.  What people don't want to do is pay an EXTRA fee for
 something that for the last 60 years appeared to be FREE.  The smart
 thing for the airlines to have done is to increase ticket prices by
 $10/$20 for every single passenger, a hidden luggage fee. Prices go up
 from time-to-time anyway.

 Unfortunately that aproach doesn't work of routes with more than one
 choice of airline. Easy consumer access to sites such as Travelocity
 or Expedia lets potential customers see the price for each carrier.
 As soon as one airline finds a way to lower the base price for a
 route by any means (usually by dropping some basic amenity), the other
 airlines all seem to respond with lower prices in a very short time -
 something they would not need to do if customers were prepared to pay
 extra for the amenity in question.   But the single biggest factor
 that seems to determine how well an airline does in selling seats is
 the price it charges for each seat - price trumps everything else.

 This all gets complicated by the variable pricing strategy used to
 sell airline tickets - the airline's goal is to fill all the seats
 at the highest price for each seat, so the price will go up as the
 plane gets fuller, and down if there are too many empty seats left.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-06 Thread John Francis

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:59:43PM -0700, Tom C wrote:
 I've long thought that if airlines simply sold seats based upon what
 it REALLY cost them to fly, instead of giving $100 flights
 cross-country and charging somestimes an additional $300/$400 to fly
 the last 150 mile leg of a trip, they'd be better off.

Actually, to a large extent, they are.

That $300/$400 is close to the true cost of providing service to the
feeder airport - often on a regional jet or some other configuration
with few high-priced (business/first-class) seats.  All the overhead 
has to be covered by a small number of daily flights.

The $100 cross-country seat is an attempt to fill excess capacity on
a route which already has far more daily customers paying the regular
price (not to mention the airline target demographic - the business
and first class customers), flying between airports which amortise
the overhead over a larger route network.
The regular price for that seat could well be $400, but it's cheaper
to sell 10% of the seats at $100 than it is to fly with empty seats.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread Anthony Farr

After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
reference, which is to unprofitable customers.  Forgive me for
asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
will be offered for sale?  In that context, then it's the store's
responsibility/fault if they offer a deal that doesn't turn a profit.
Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
to be offered in the first place.

Now, we all know about loss leaders, don't we?  The store offers a
doorbuster price usually at a loss, but hopes to turn it into a profit
by upsizing the customer before they reach the checkout.  Then, is a
customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
leader but never the upsize a bad customer?  No answer is needed for
two reasons.  One is that the store offered the deal, it's as simple
as that.  The second is that there's no workable way to filter out or
discriminate against a customer because of how many items you ~think~
they'll put in their cart.  If the business model for loss-leaders
isn't working for a store, then they need to remedy it, not demonize
customers who accept the offers.

In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.

Finally, a question for Henry Posner.  If you could replay this event
that has caused so much grief, would you once again stand by your
legal/moral position for the sake of $250, or would you let it slide,
let the customer have the benefit-of-the-doubt (even though you
believe he is wrong), and circumvent the ill-will and misunderstanding
that it has spawned?

What does advertising cost these days, anyway?  More than $250?
(Rhetorical questions).

regards, Anthony

   Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight
   (Anon)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread paul stenquist


On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Anthony Farr wrote:

 After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
 reference, which is to unprofitable customers.  Forgive me for
 asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
 will be offered for sale?  In that context, then it's the store's
 responsibility/fault if they offer a deal that doesn't turn a profit.
 Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
 around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
 to be offered in the first place.
 
 Now, we all know about loss leaders, don't we?  The store offers a
 doorbuster price usually at a loss, but hopes to turn it into a profit
 by upsizing the customer before they reach the checkout.  Then, is a
 customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
 leader but never the upsize a bad customer?  No answer is needed for
 two reasons.  One is that the store offered the deal, it's as simple
 as that.  The second is that there's no workable way to filter out or
 discriminate against a customer because of how many items you ~think~
 they'll put in their cart.  If the business model for loss-leaders
 isn't working for a store, then they need to remedy it, not demonize
 customers who accept the offers.
 
 In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
 practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.
 
 Finally, a question for Henry Posner.  If you could replay this event
 that has caused so much grief, would you once again stand by your
 legal/moral position for the sake of $250, or would you let it slide,
 let the customer have the benefit-of-the-doubt (even though you
 believe he is wrong), and circumvent the ill-will and misunderstanding
 that it has spawned?

I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for BH. But after many years of 
dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm no. They'll stick 
by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have specific 
policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them following 
them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that they've set. Most 
often, that works to the consumer's advantage.

I also doubt that this event has caused so much grief in the overall scheme 
of things. Hand wringing and name calling here? Sure, but that's meaningless. 
Perhaps another tempestuous discussion or two on photo lists? Certainly not a 
big deal given the scope of BH's business.

I think we should feel honored that Henry felt we deserved a reply. I'm only 
sorry that he was not treated with the respect to which any human being is 
entitled.

Paul


 
 What does advertising cost these days, anyway?  More than $250?
 (Rhetorical questions).
 
 regards, Anthony
 
Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight
   (Anon)
 
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2010-02-05 4:30, Anthony Farr wrote:

After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
reference, which is to unprofitable customers.  Forgive me for
asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
will be offered for sale?


First, you're right.  Second, I'm not coming at it from the retail side, 
where my only experience is working in high school as a stock boy for a 
pharmacy.  I'm coming at it from the environment of companies, 
especially start ups, producing computer hardware systems, software 
systems, and services.  I've seen way too many cases of closing a big 
contract just to get the cash flow.  Then the costs of supporting that 
customer or contract go far out of balance with the income, or even cash 
flow, resulting from the sale.  This happens for a variety of reasons. 
Sometimes, though, it's due to an unreasonable customer. Some customers 
in that environment end up being so expensive to keep that you could 
never get them to agree to a contract that would allow the deal to be 
profitable for the seller.  However, you're right that the burden is on 
the seller.


--
Thanks,
DougF (KG4LMZ)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

- Original Message - 
From: paul stenquist

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for BH. But after many years of 
dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm no. They'll 
stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have 
specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on 
them following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that 
they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.

Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and 
cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a 
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is 
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore 
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?

If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and 
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

For myself,  wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't 
tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big BH customer, 
I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after 
this, I'm done with them as a customer.
They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my 
mind.

Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner, 
Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and 
therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I 
suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have 
never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I 
gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.

And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me 
for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically 
invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.

William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread Mark Roberts

William Robb wrote:

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a 
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is 
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore 
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and 
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
200. Or 800. BH's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
(good luck proving it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
seller claims that was the case). 

Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
re-priced everything he sells.

Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
be protected, too.

The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
hand, is treated as informational like the price in a printed
advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Well I can state that I will not be purchasing from BH again where I
otherwise would have.

I have nothing personal against Henry.  I don't know him.

I agree totally with Stan and Anthony who have reiterated a point I
made earlier and then expounded with logical reasoning.

In short, this was an issue of choosing profit (or loss of profit)
over the customer and their satisfaction.

BH would not have suffered huge losses causing irrepairable harm and
I believe the Equitable Doctrine of Unilateral Mistake is being
grossly misapplied and misused, if that's the rationale behind not
honoring the contract.

In fact I think they would have come out ahead in the long run by
eating the cost of the goods, the desired profit margin and the
shipping, in effect purchasing  customer goodwill, loyalty, and
perception. Or if they simply viewed that bargain sale as a loss
leader instead of a loss.

If BH can't see the logic in this reasoning, or if they set forth a
policy and blindly stick to it on every occasion, then they are a
stupid and foolish corporate entity, and are likely losing current and
future business that far offsets any short term savings on a
transactional basis.

Even as a single independent IT Consultant I sometimes give away hours
of service here and there.  Maybe I had trouble figuring something out
or possibly I had to ramp up learning a new tool and the job took me
longer than I anticipated. Because I realize that in the business
world perception is at least 50% of reality, I eat those hours, that
profit, in order to ensure my client has a positive view of me and my
services. What I lose amounts to a lot more than $250, but what I gain
exceeds even that.

Tom C.



On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:06 AM, paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:

 On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Anthony Farr wrote:

 After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
 reference, which is to unprofitable customers.  Forgive me for
 asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
 will be offered for sale?  In that context, then it's the store's
 responsibility/fault if they offer a deal that doesn't turn a profit.
 Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
 around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
 to be offered in the first place.

 Now, we all know about loss leaders, don't we?  The store offers a
 doorbuster price usually at a loss, but hopes to turn it into a profit
 by upsizing the customer before they reach the checkout.  Then, is a
 customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
 leader but never the upsize a bad customer?  No answer is needed for
 two reasons.  One is that the store offered the deal, it's as simple
 as that.  The second is that there's no workable way to filter out or
 discriminate against a customer because of how many items you ~think~
 they'll put in their cart.  If the business model for loss-leaders
 isn't working for a store, then they need to remedy it, not demonize
 customers who accept the offers.

 In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
 practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.

 Finally, a question for Henry Posner.  If you could replay this event
 that has caused so much grief, would you once again stand by your
 legal/moral position for the sake of $250, or would you let it slide,
 let the customer have the benefit-of-the-doubt (even though you
 believe he is wrong), and circumvent the ill-will and misunderstanding
 that it has spawned?

 I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for BH. But after many years of 
 dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm no. They'll 
 stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have 
 specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them 
 following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that they've 
 set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.

 I also doubt that this event has caused so much grief in the overall scheme 
 of things. Hand wringing and name calling here? Sure, but that's meaningless. 
 Perhaps another tempestuous discussion or two on photo lists? Certainly not a 
 big deal given the scope of BH's business.

 I think we should feel honored that Henry felt we deserved a reply. I'm only 
 sorry that he was not treated with the respect to which any human being is 
 entitled.

 Paul



 What does advertising cost these days, anyway?  More than $250?
 (Rhetorical questions).

 regards, Anthony

    Of what use is lens and light
    to those who lack in mind and sight
                                               (Anon)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Please post Bill, please.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: paul stenquist
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I




 I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for BH. But after many years of
 dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm no. They'll
 stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
 specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
 following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
 they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.

 Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
 cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.

 I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
 quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
 clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
 you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
 If you'd care to, answer me this time.

 In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
 (most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 For myself,  wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
 tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big BH customer,
 I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
 this, I'm done with them as a customer.
 They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
 mind.

 Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
 Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
 therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
 suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
 never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
 gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.

 And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
 for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
 invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.

 William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Ugh! :-)

I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
is foolish.  Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
are specifically flagged to allow it.

On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
is everything else not the same?

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 William Robb wrote:

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
 seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
 work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
 They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

 Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
 the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
 That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
 was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
 sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
 store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
 to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
 store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
 and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
 200. Or 800. BH's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
 a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
 mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
 happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
 site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
 of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
 at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
 (good luck proving it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
 aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
 seller claims that was the case).

 Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
 upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
 re-priced everything he sells.

 Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
 for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
 error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
 to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
 state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
 of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
 they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
 be protected, too.

 The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
 carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
 the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
 hand, is treated as informational like the price in a printed
 advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

 Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
 speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
 as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
 the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
 of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
certainly combined, BH has already lost far more profit than they
would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: paul stenquist
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I




 I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for BH. But after many years of
 dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm no. They'll
 stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
 specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
 following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
 they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.

 Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
 cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.

 I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
 quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
 clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
 you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
 If you'd care to, answer me this time.

 In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
 (most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 For myself,  wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
 tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big BH customer,
 I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
 this, I'm done with them as a customer.
 They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
 mind.

 Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
 Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
 therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
 suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
 never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
 gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.

 And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
 for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
 invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.

 William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Anthony Farr farranth...@gmail.com wrote:
 Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
 around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
 to be offered in the first place.

 Then, is a customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
 leader but never the upsize a bad customer?
 snip
 If the business model for loss-leaders  isn't working for a store, then they 
 need to remedy it, not demonize
 customers who accept the offers.

 In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
 practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.


Anthony,

Your post reminds me of something I've experienced in airports
recently.  Yesterday evening, I walked past a gate that was getting
ready to board (this was Delta Airlines but I've heard this from
United as well)...

'We have a very full flight today and would like to make an ontime
departure.  It's important that travelers board the plane, stow their
luggage and belongings, and be seated. We ask that you stow your
larger items like roller bags in the overhead bins, leaving the space
at your feet for smaller items.  If you bring an item on board that is
too big to fit in an overhead bin, this will cause additional
congestion in the aisle and the bag will need to be carried to the
front of the plane and then stowed with the rest of the cargo.  The
number one reason for late departures is because travelers delay
departure by not handling their carryon items properly.'

WHAT???  The CUSTOMER is responsible for late departures?  Who decided
to change their policy and charge an exhorbitant fee to check luggage,
so that now 70% of the passengers bring the larger carrier on bags
into the passenger compartment?  THE AIRLINE.  It's they that have
caused the congestion and lack of space in the overhead bins, the
confusion while travelers wander back and forth searching for a place
to put their bag, blocking the aisle no where near their assigned
seat, and consequent late departures.  THOSE NAUGHTY PESKY CUSTOMERS!

So I check my bag and then put my laptop in the overhead bin, so I
have room at my feet.  What do you think happens?  The flight
attendant, frantically searches for space in the overheads, sees my
laptop, asks whose it is, and then asks me if I would mind stowing it
under the seat in front of me.  To that I say 'No, I've already
checked my large bag underneath (often having to pay to do so).  I
shouldn't have to pay to check my bag and then ALSO give up the space
around my feet.  You want me, the person that has paid to check their
luggage, now sacrifice my comfort for the sake of customers who chose
not to pay. It's the airlines policy of charging for checked luggage
that is the problem and that's why there's not enough space'.

Anyway when I walked by the gate and heard that announcement, I
stopped and told three guys waiting to board that Did you hear that?
It's all your fault they're going to be late.  They laughed.

Tom C.

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread Mark Roberts

Tom C wrote:

Ugh! :-)

I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
is foolish.  

Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
between good sales spikes and bad ones. (And staff to deal with
pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
mistake.)

Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
are specifically flagged to allow it.

I'd guess that's exactly what happened in the case that started all
this. The company running the web site has the *price* of the items
for sale but it's unlikely that any large retailer would allow their
*cost* information out of house. So the discrepancy won't be detected
until the web host forwards the order information to the retailer.

On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
is everything else not the same?

The cashier in Bill's mis-priced milk scenario can see if there are
1000 other customers in line with mis-priced milk. The online retailer
can't (until it's too late). If the online store is required to sell
just one mis-priced item because the loss isn't huge, what do they
tell the second person in line? For that matter, how does the second
person know they're not being lied to and they really *are* the first
person in line? (I think that's what Cambridge Camera Exchange would
do!)

The answer to pretty much all of the above is that a lot of best
practices for the real world simply don't scale to the virtual one.
Comparison of one to the other is fundamentally flawed.

I looked for online retailers who promised to honor the prices
advertised on their site even in the event of a mistake. I couldn't
find any. (They're probably out there if you look hard enough, but
I'll bet they're small, newbie operations that haven't been bitten
yet. Or sellers of v...@gra, pr0n, etc. who have no intention of
honoring the promise.)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Roberts

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
between good sales spikes and bad ones. (And staff to deal with
pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
mistake.)

What you'd need is an item tracker to find spikes and a person who's 
responsibility it is to track back to the website to see if the spike is 
caused by incorrect pricing.
It would mean having someone with the ability to correct pricing errors 
manning a terminal 24/7, but considering that BH and it's ilk has done a 
very effective job of killing BM stores by not employing people, perhaps it 
would only be fair to ask them to hire a few people whose job is to keep 
them honest.
At what point do these places have a right to practice breach of contract? 
Is it a 2 for 1 price mistake such as what this thread is about? What 
happens if it is a fifty dollar mistake on a five hundred dollar item? What 
happens when the price is believable but they decide that it is too low and 
so arbitraritly decide to raise it, cancelling good faith transactions at 
the same time?
What happens when they arbitrarily cancel back orders because they decide 
that it is inconvenient to fullfill the order?
What happens when a customer chooses BH for the low price, eschewing 
another retailer who is slightly higher, only to have BH dishonour the 
contract and then said customer finds that everone has raised their price 
and he is screwed because he tried to be a smart shopper when in reality if 
he had been smart, he would have bought from the somewhat higher priced 
seller whose pricing was correct at the time?

All this makes me very glad that I live in an area that has an honest camera 
store so that I generally don't have to deal with mail order shysters.

Tom, that was your invite, I'm done now.

William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

The thing is, it's not difficult to implement, it's just a matter if doing it.

Will it cost money for the online retailer to do it? Yes.  Would it
potentially save them money if implemented? Likely yes.

The online retailers are already reducing overheads and maximizing
profits by 1) not usually have a physical location with a store front,
2) having essentially no sales staff, and 3) many times drop-shipping
an item straight from a manufacturer to the customer's door, meaning
that they didn't even have to maintain an inventory, and did not incur
the item cost until it was purchased.

Detecting sales spikes is simply a matter of setting threshholds,
recording item and time of each sale, and then a batch process running
that continually analyzes the data and flips a switch if a probable
problem is detected.  As you know the NYSE has software that operates
on this principle, and guess what? AFAIK, up to the point it kicks in,
the trades are valid and legal.

I disagree with the notion that there is any inherent difference
between putting a physical price tag on an item or display shelf, and
entering that same information into a computer screen, except that the
computer screen likely shows far more information (item cost,
description, units of sale like single or pair) to the person, and
should enable one to catch pricing issues more easily than when a low
paid, unknowledgable clerk hangs a price tag.

As far as where to cut it off in the case of volume sales, that's up
to the vendor.  One way to handle it, other than the monitoring
software, is to have sales of certain items only be finalized after
further review and approval, which could take no more than several
minutes.

It seems what you would do is put the majority of the responsiblity on
the customer, and abrogate the responsibility of the retailer, which
if done, will simply lead to sloppy(ier) business practices.

Tom C.


On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 Tom C wrote:

Ugh! :-)

I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
is foolish.

 Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
 definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
 tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
 something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
 between good sales spikes and bad ones. (And staff to deal with
 pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
 mistake.)

Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
are specifically flagged to allow it.

 I'd guess that's exactly what happened in the case that started all
 this. The company running the web site has the *price* of the items
 for sale but it's unlikely that any large retailer would allow their
 *cost* information out of house. So the discrepancy won't be detected
 until the web host forwards the order information to the retailer.

On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
is everything else not the same?

 The cashier in Bill's mis-priced milk scenario can see if there are
 1000 other customers in line with mis-priced milk. The online retailer
 can't (until it's too late). If the online store is required to sell
 just one mis-priced item because the loss isn't huge, what do they
 tell the second person in line? For that matter, how does the second
 person know they're not being lied to and they really *are* the first
 person in line? (I think that's what Cambridge Camera Exchange would
 do!)

 The answer to pretty much all of the above is that a lot of best
 practices for the real world simply don't scale to the virtual one.
 Comparison of one to the other is fundamentally flawed.

 I looked for online retailers who promised to honor the prices
 advertised on their site even in the event of a mistake. I couldn't
 find any. (They're probably out there if you look hard enough, but
 I'll bet they're small, newbie operations that haven't been bitten
 yet. Or sellers of v...@gra, pr0n, etc. who have no intention of
 honoring the promise.)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread George Sinos

Just tagging onto the thread here.  Responding in general, not to
Marks specifics.

I've been following this for a couple of days and what surprises me is
the attitude of aha, I caught you, the rules say you have to do this,
so there!

Because of long standing experience with BH I'm convinced this was a
mistake.  But it would not make any difference to me.

If I was approached by any vendor that said, we made a mistake,
here's how we would like to make up for it.  You won't get as good a
deal as you thought, but it will be the best we can do or we'll take
the mdse back at our expense, refund your money and call it a day.

I don't think I could say aha, the law says you have too lose money
because  there are other people in the past that have done this on
purpose.   I wouldn't feel right treating anyone that way.

I would of course, take this into account in future transactions.

Now, on the subject of bad customers.  Yes, they do exist.

Women, for example, that buy a dress, wear it to a function, and
return the dress to the store.

A friend's wife, who bought several place settings of fine silver for
a party, used it, washed it, and returned it to the store.

The handy homeowner who buys a tool, uses it for one job, then takes
advantage of the store's no questions asked policy to return the
tool.  (Ask anyone who's worked in the Sears tool dept.)

These people raise the cost of doing business which raises prices for all of us.

You guy with the attitude of the store should eat the cost.  You do
understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
raises the price for everyone else, don't you?

From the standpoint of learning about human nature, the most valuable
jobs I ever had were the retail jobs I worked while going through
school.

Stepping down from my soapbox now, gs

-- 
George Sinos

www.georgesphotos.net

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

... also large companies have software that automatically orders and
replenishes stock, think of the risk inherent in that.  So certainly
software of this nature exists.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 Tom C wrote:

Ugh! :-)

I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
is foolish.

 Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
 definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
 tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
 something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
 between good sales spikes and bad ones. (And staff to deal with
 pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
 mistake.)

Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
are specifically flagged to allow it.

 I'd guess that's exactly what happened in the case that started all
 this. The company running the web site has the *price* of the items
 for sale but it's unlikely that any large retailer would allow their
 *cost* information out of house. So the discrepancy won't be detected
 until the web host forwards the order information to the retailer.

On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
is everything else not the same?

 The cashier in Bill's mis-priced milk scenario can see if there are
 1000 other customers in line with mis-priced milk. The online retailer
 can't (until it's too late). If the online store is required to sell
 just one mis-priced item because the loss isn't huge, what do they
 tell the second person in line? For that matter, how does the second
 person know they're not being lied to and they really *are* the first
 person in line? (I think that's what Cambridge Camera Exchange would
 do!)

 The answer to pretty much all of the above is that a lot of best
 practices for the real world simply don't scale to the virtual one.
 Comparison of one to the other is fundamentally flawed.

 I looked for online retailers who promised to honor the prices
 advertised on their site even in the event of a mistake. I couldn't
 find any. (They're probably out there if you look hard enough, but
 I'll bet they're small, newbie operations that haven't been bitten
 yet. Or sellers of v...@gra, pr0n, etc. who have no intention of
 honoring the promise.)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I


 You guy with the attitude of the store should eat the cost.  You do
 understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
 raises the price for everyone else, don't you?


Does it?  Only if the retailer makes it so.

On the other hand, the increased sales because you have a happy
customer and now enjoy the benefits of their repeat business can
quickly surpass the temporal loss. Then that customer tells his
friends, 'You know what happened?', and his friends think next time
they want to make a purchase, 'Wow ABC company really treated my
friend right.  I think I'll check out their website first'.

So many many businesses are shortsighted and only see the tangible,
when it's often the intangible that is of higher value.

Since I'm no longer purchasing from BH, and they will not have the
benefit of my $ paying the gross margin, and consequently stock for
which they've paid for sits longer in the warehouse, does that raise
the price for everyone else?

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Those were also my thoughts Bill. The person wouldn't have to find the
spikes, simply review the ones reported.

I can't say what the transaction volume/min on a given item is... but
I can imagine were not talking about something like 50 Pentax K-7's or
10 Nikon D3x's sold per minute. The software could even track
inventory data and regularly update a database containing sales volume
per item in a time frame, last month, last week, yesterday, last hour,
last minute.  If at any point, a threshhold is crossed, the software
would run the proverbial red flag up the flagpole, temporarily suspend
sales of the item, and generate high priority e-mails, pages, or phone
calls to the appropriate personnel to alert them.

If not excessive, I think most businesses view pricing errors as a
cost of doing business and to some degree it's already reflected in
the selling price, just like shrinks, returns, damages, etc.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:19 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 What you'd need is an item tracker to find spikes and a person who's
 responsibility it is to track back to the website to see if the spike is
 caused by incorrect pricing.
 It would mean having someone with the ability to correct pricing errors
 manning a terminal 24/7, but considering that BH and it's ilk has done a
 very effective job of killing BM stores by not employing people, perhaps it
 would only be fair to ask them to hire a few people whose job is to keep
 them honest.

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Not the selling price of THE item, but across the board in terms of
overall markup.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote:
 Those were also my thoughts Bill. The person wouldn't have to find the
 spikes, simply review the ones reported.

 I can't say what the transaction volume/min on a given item is... but
 I can imagine were not talking about something like 50 Pentax K-7's or
 10 Nikon D3x's sold per minute. The software could even track
 inventory data and regularly update a database containing sales volume
 per item in a time frame, last month, last week, yesterday, last hour,
 last minute.  If at any point, a threshhold is crossed, the software
 would run the proverbial red flag up the flagpole, temporarily suspend
 sales of the item, and generate high priority e-mails, pages, or phone
 calls to the appropriate personnel to alert them.

 If not excessive, I think most businesses view pricing errors as a
 cost of doing business and to some degree it's already reflected in
 the selling price, just like shrinks, returns, damages, etc.

 Tom C.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:19 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 What you'd need is an item tracker to find spikes and a person who's
 responsibility it is to track back to the website to see if the spike is
 caused by incorrect pricing.
 It would mean having someone with the ability to correct pricing errors
 manning a terminal 24/7, but considering that BH and it's ilk has done a
 very effective job of killing BM stores by not employing people, perhaps it
 would only be fair to ask them to hire a few people whose job is to keep
 them honest.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
store shelf.
I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
virtual store.
Regards, Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 William Robb wrote:

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
 seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
 work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
 They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

 Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
 the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
 That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
 was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
 sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
 store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
 to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
 store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
 and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
 200. Or 800. BH's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
 a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
 mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
 happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
 site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
 of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
 at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
 (good luck proving it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
 aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
 seller claims that was the case).

 Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
 upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
 re-priced everything he sells.

 Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
 for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
 error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
 to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
 state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
 of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
 they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
 be protected, too.

 The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
 carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
 the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
 hand, is treated as informational like the price in a printed
 advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

 Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
 speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
 as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
 the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
 of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

- Original Message - 
From: George Sinos

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

These people raise the cost of doing business which raises prices for all 
of us.

You guy with the attitude of the store should eat the cost.  You do
understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
raises the price for everyone else, don't you?

Dammit Geoge, I hate it when you make a liar out of me.
For the past 9 months or so, I have been slinging lumber at my local Home 
Depot.

Here are some actual returns I've dealt with:
A cart load of 5/4x6/16' PT deck boards returned.
The top layer was new wood, the bottom 40 boards had been pulled off a deck.
I presume they replaced old wood with new and successfully returned the old 
product.

Odd length boards such as 11 foot runs. We sell 8', 10' and 12'
Soketimes you get to see where the customer calculated his cut and them 
marked it wrong.
Boards with screws still embedded in them (I hit that with my radial arm saw 
when cutting it down to cull and I wouldn't be happy).
Sheets of plywood that have been cut up and then returned because they did 
the cuts wrong.
If you like, I can post a picture of a sheet of MDF that was broken by a 
vehicle driving over it.

We gave them their money back for it, too.
Broken sheets of drywall.
A pail of drywall mud that had been opened and partially used.
Two end plates from single device electrical boxes that the customer had 
bought, made a single two gang box with and then returned the unused end 
plates for a full refund.

I bitched and moaned about this sort of thing at a Towne Hall metting once 
and was told that this sort of thing was a very small % of returns, and that 
the company's position was that it wasn't worth annoying customers over.
We eat the loss, write off the product at full retail and I am sure that the 
Harvard guys figure out some way to turn it into a financial windfall.

The point is, a good retailer takes the point of view that the customer, 
while not always right, at least deserves the benefit of the doubt, and 
should not be called out as a liar by the retailer.

In the situation that led us to this thread, had BH been as good a retailer 
as Home Depot is, they would have taken the hit, and not had the bad PR that 
anyone doing a Google search is going to give them when people find this 
thread.
BH has not only made it plain that they will not stand behind their pricing 
when they find it inconvenient, they have sicced one of their 
representatives onto this forum and he, in turn, has cast a few insults at 
forum members.

It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known for 
this sort of behaviour.
It is something else entirely for BH Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has 
been a good customer of theirs.

William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

The principle is the same. We were not talking about massive high
volume sales where the retailer loses his shirt.  We're talking about
one transaction of two items to one customer, and it was not a high
priced item.

I don't see that any sanity was injected into it.  What's insane is
for a retailer to alienate their customers when by a relatively small
gesture, they could make them happy and most probably lock in their
repeat business.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
 Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
 store shelf.
 I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
 virtual store.
 Regards, Bob S.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 William Robb wrote:

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
 seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
 work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
 They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

 Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
 the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
 That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
 was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
 sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
 store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
 to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
 store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
 and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
 200. Or 800. BH's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
 a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
 mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
 happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
 site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
 of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
 at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
 (good luck proving it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
 aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
 seller claims that was the case).

 Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
 upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
 re-priced everything he sells.

 Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
 for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
 error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
 to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
 state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
 of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
 they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
 be protected, too.

 The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
 carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
 the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
 hand, is treated as informational like the price in a printed
 advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

 Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
 speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
 as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
 the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
 of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

- Original Message - 
From: Bob Sullivan

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
store shelf.
I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
virtual store.

The price is not germaine, the principal behind it is what is important.
If I can't depend on an online retailer to honour the pricing on his web 
store shelves (and lets make no mistake, that is what the BH website is), 
then what incentive do I have to go there rather than to my BM store that 
may end up having a lower cost if BH decides they don't have to honour the 
pricing on their virtual shelves.
I can go downtown and get an honest transaction, or I can go to 
BHPhotoVideo.com and run the risk of them being dishonest with me.

Mark mentioned Cambridge Camera as an example of who not to shop with.
Is BH really any different?

William Robb 

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Bill,
After your story, Lynn will have to sell her Home Depot stock...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:57 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: George Sinos
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



 These people raise the cost of doing business which raises prices for all
 of us.

 You guy with the attitude of the store should eat the cost.  You do
 understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
 raises the price for everyone else, don't you?

 Dammit Geoge, I hate it when you make a liar out of me.
 For the past 9 months or so, I have been slinging lumber at my local Home
 Depot.
 Here are some actual returns I've dealt with:
 A cart load of 5/4x6/16' PT deck boards returned.
 The top layer was new wood, the bottom 40 boards had been pulled off a deck.
 I presume they replaced old wood with new and successfully returned the old
 product.
 Odd length boards such as 11 foot runs. We sell 8', 10' and 12'
 Soketimes you get to see where the customer calculated his cut and them
 marked it wrong.
 Boards with screws still embedded in them (I hit that with my radial arm saw
 when cutting it down to cull and I wouldn't be happy).
 Sheets of plywood that have been cut up and then returned because they did
 the cuts wrong.
 If you like, I can post a picture of a sheet of MDF that was broken by a
 vehicle driving over it.
 We gave them their money back for it, too.
 Broken sheets of drywall.
 A pail of drywall mud that had been opened and partially used.
 Two end plates from single device electrical boxes that the customer had
 bought, made a single two gang box with and then returned the unused end
 plates for a full refund.

 I bitched and moaned about this sort of thing at a Towne Hall metting once
 and was told that this sort of thing was a very small % of returns, and that
 the company's position was that it wasn't worth annoying customers over.
 We eat the loss, write off the product at full retail and I am sure that the
 Harvard guys figure out some way to turn it into a financial windfall.

 The point is, a good retailer takes the point of view that the customer,
 while not always right, at least deserves the benefit of the doubt, and
 should not be called out as a liar by the retailer.

 In the situation that led us to this thread, had BH been as good a retailer
 as Home Depot is, they would have taken the hit, and not had the bad PR that
 anyone doing a Google search is going to give them when people find this
 thread.
 BH has not only made it plain that they will not stand behind their pricing
 when they find it inconvenient, they have sicced one of their
 representatives onto this forum and he, in turn, has cast a few insults at
 forum members.

 It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known for
 this sort of behaviour.
 It is something else entirely for BH Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has
 been a good customer of theirs.

 William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

 It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known for
 this sort of behaviour.
 It is something else entirely for BH Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has
 been a good customer of theirs.

 William Robb

MARK!

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Bob,

I'm a virtual store and will gladly accept your virtual money, in any
amount, denomination or currency.  HAND IT OVER!

:-)

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
 Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
 store shelf.
 I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
 virtual store.
 Regards, Bob S.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 William Robb wrote:

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
 seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
 work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
 They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

 Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
 the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
 That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
 was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
 sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
 store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
 to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
 store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
 and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
 200. Or 800. BH's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
 a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
 mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
 happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
 site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
 of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
 at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
 (good luck proving it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
 aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
 seller claims that was the case).

 Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
 upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
 re-priced everything he sells.

 Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
 for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
 error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
 to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
 state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
 of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
 they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
 be protected, too.

 The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
 carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
 the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
 hand, is treated as informational like the price in a printed
 advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

 Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
 speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
 as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
 the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
 of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread John Francis


No - please don't.

It should be obvious to all, by now, that you and Bill stand
on one side of the issue, and a much larger number stand on
the other side.  Nobody is going to change anyones opinion,
so this topic should be dropped - its just religion/politics
now, not a sensible discourse.

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:11:08AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
 Please post Bill, please.
 
 Tom C.
 
 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  - Original Message - From: paul stenquist
  Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
 
 
 
 
  I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for BH. But after many years of
  dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm no. They'll
  stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
  specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
  following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
  they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.
 
  Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
  cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.
 
  I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
  quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
  clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
  you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
  If you'd care to, answer me this time.
 
  In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
  (most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
 
  For myself, ?wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
  tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big BH customer,
  I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
  this, I'm done with them as a customer.
  They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
  mind.
 
  Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
  Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
  therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
  suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
  never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
  gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.
 
  And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
  for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
  invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.
 
  William Robb
 
 
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:23 PM, P N Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:

 On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Tom C wrote:

 It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known
 for
 this sort of behaviour.
 It is something else entirely for BH Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has
 been a good customer of theirs.

 William Robb

 MARK!


 Mark knows better, believe me.


Great now we don't have an unbiased collector of MARKS!  This
deserves a review panel.

Tom C.

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread P N Stenquist



On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Tom C wrote:

It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is  
known for

this sort of behaviour.
It is something else entirely for BH Photo to insult Bill Robb,  
who has

been a good customer of theirs.

William Robb


MARK!



Mark knows better, believe me.



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread John Francis

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
 I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
 certainly combined, BH has already lost far more profit than they
 would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.
 
 Tom C.

Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
having made those reprobates at BH pay for their misconduct.

Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread George Sinos

Hi Bill -

I agree, as long as this remains a small percentage of customers, it
can be handled. I was just trying to point out there there are
problems on both sides of the cash register. As long as both parties
treat each other with the benefit of the doubt, we're all better off
for it.

My daughter worked at the Home Depot for about a year and told me
similar stories. I've worked at Camera and Stereo/Audio stores and
could also tell tales that would make you cringe. I don't know how
people can live with themselves when they do that kind of stuff. It's
clearly dishonest.

I'm lucky to have a great retail camera store, Rockbrook Camera,
http://www.rockbrookcamera.com/ right here in town. This place is
family owned, and in an era where camera stores are closing, they are
growing. They recently expanded by opening another store.

You can read about them here if your curious.
http://www.photoreporter.com/article.asp?issueID=128num=15vol=17articleType=tsarticleID=3123

That being said, there are times when I need some oddball item faster
than they can order it and I've usually turned to BH. I especially
like the shipping discount offered to NAPP members.

I feel like I've been treated fairly by both companies.

Fair disclosure - For the most part I'm just a Rockbrook customer, but
after doing business with them for decades, I teach a Saturday morning
class for them about three times a year.

George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



- Original Message - 
From: Bob Sullivan 
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



Bill,
After your story, Lynn will have to sell her Home Depot stock...

Consider, Home Depot is doing very well, Lowes OTOH..

William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



- Original Message - 
From: John Francis 
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I





No - please don't.



Mafud once said:

Bill Robb will be the one to put the Muslim in his place. 

Now it's Henry's turn.

HAR!!



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Bill,

Price is really important here.
A one dollar error is fluff to be overlooked.
A 10,000 dollar error is something nobody will overlook.

You and Tom C. are welcome to continue the rant against BH.
Your rant won't save the brick and mortar shops.
That train has left the station.
It's wonderful that you have a Pentax retaler in Regina.
In the Chicago metro with 6-8 million people, we have one retailer left.
Central Camera is the only place to go for a hands on look at Pentax.

I can wish that this was different, but I know that I won't pay
10-20-30% extra to support a local shop.  Whenever I was given the
choice, I voted on price.  And before you opine on all those wonderful
services I lost, let me tell you this.  The guys behind the counters
didn't know squat about Pentax cameras and lenses.  I get more good
and useful feedback from this list about new products than I ever got
from the bricks and mortar shops.

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:13 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I


 Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
 Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
 store shelf.
 I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
 virtual store.

 The price is not germaine, the principal behind it is what is important.
 If I can't depend on an online retailer to honour the pricing on his web
 store shelves (and lets make no mistake, that is what the BH website is),
 then what incentive do I have to go there rather than to my BM store that
 may end up having a lower cost if BH decides they don't have to honour the
 pricing on their virtual shelves.
 I can go downtown and get an honest transaction, or I can go to
 BHPhotoVideo.com and run the risk of them being dishonest with me.
 Mark mentioned Cambridge Camera as an example of who not to shop with.
 Is BH really any different?

 William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Sorry Tom,
A guy with a virtual gun stole all my virtual money.  ;-)
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote:
 Bob,

 I'm a virtual store and will gladly accept your virtual money, in any
 amount, denomination or currency.  HAND IT OVER!

 :-)

 Tom C.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
 Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
 store shelf.
 I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
 virtual store.
 Regards, Bob S.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 William Robb wrote:

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what BH has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

 Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
 seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
 work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
 They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

 Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
 the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
 That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
 was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
 sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
 store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
 to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
 store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
 and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
 200. Or 800. BH's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
 a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
 mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
 happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
 site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
 of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
 at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
 (good luck proving it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
 aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
 seller claims that was the case).

 Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
 upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
 re-priced everything he sells.

 Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
 for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
 error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
 to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
 state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
 of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
 they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
 be protected, too.

 The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
 carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
 the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
 hand, is treated as informational like the price in a printed
 advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

 Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
 speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
 as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
 the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
 of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Exactly!

Except I still reserve the right express my views and the rest of the
list can excercise their right to read it or not.  There's a good 50%
of the list I don't read based on topic alone.

I think there's probably an equal number who see it the same way as
Bill and I, and simply have not felt it necessary to join the
discussion.

All things considered though, as strongly as we feel about it, it's
been relatively low key and even in the hiccups where things
escalated, it's at least been entertaining.

Tom C.



On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, John Francis jo...@panix.com wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
 I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
 certainly combined, BH has already lost far more profit than they
 would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.

 Tom C.

 Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
 having made those reprobates at BH pay for their misconduct.

 Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

OH NO, Tom has evoked the 'silent majority'!
Next thing I know, you'll be pelting us with tea bags.  :-)
Is that Ronald Regan I see over your shoulder?
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote:
 Exactly!

 Except I still reserve the right express my views and the rest of the
 list can excercise their right to read it or not.  There's a good 50%
 of the list I don't read based on topic alone.

 I think there's probably an equal number who see it the same way as
 Bill and I, and simply have not felt it necessary to join the
 discussion.

 All things considered though, as strongly as we feel about it, it's
 been relatively low key and even in the hiccups where things
 escalated, it's at least been entertaining.

 Tom C.



 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, John Francis jo...@panix.com wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
 I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
 certainly combined, BH has already lost far more profit than they
 would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.

 Tom C.

 Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
 having made those reprobates at BH pay for their misconduct.

 Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?


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J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-05 Thread Derby Chang


Bob Sullivan wrote:

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
  


Brilliant, Bob, brilliant

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Tom here... speaking as Tom... The Tom, Tom t Tom Tom, TO. :-)

Yes Bob, there's certainly a cutoff point where unreasonable
expectations cannot be assuaged.  I would not reasonably expect to
purchase a $10,000 camera for $1000 if that was the nature of the
pricing error, for example.

We were discussing a far lesser amount, and it was combined with the
fact that ithe tem had been SOLD, receipt of sale received.

Let's turn the scenario around. If I were looking at an item on a
website that had terms of 'No cancellations/refunds/returns', managed
to click accidentally and put it in my shopping cart, and then
completed the purchase (not unreasonable considering that some stores
retain your filled shopping cart if you leave w/o purchasing), and
then I attempted to cancel the transaction saying I had clicked in
error, I would expect to get the heave-ho and be stuck with the item.
How is that any different than a retailer making an error by clicking
the keys, typing the word PAIR, and then having a transaction come
through to completion? I would expect them to follow through with the
sale, just as they would expect me to honor my agreement to purchase.

Three years back I purchased a DVD Recorder/VCR combo from Circuit
City.  The website said it was the same price in store.  I drove the
30 miles. The item had a price of $100.00 too high on the shelf tag.
I got a salesager to help me.  No, he didn't think I was right.  I had
him pull up the website.  Sure enough, I was not mistaken.  Guess what
happened next?  He wrote up a sales ticket, except instead of writing
$280.00, he wrote $200.00.  I thought I'd just wait and watch.  He
walked me up to pay and handed the sales ticket to the cashier telling
her an override would be be needed.  Yep it rang up at $380.00. Yep,
then 2nd salesager manager comes over, looks at the transaction, and
performs the override.

Right there I got an item at pretty close to 50% off.  Did I feel bad?
 I had a twinge, but with the recognition that it's likely another
customer (or more) walked in and did not receive the promotional
price, paying $100 too much. Had the price been correct on the shelf,
and had their sales staff been properly trained (or folloed their
training), the error in my favor would not have occurred at all.  So
it was really a matter of cause and effect

I guess that might have been the straw that broke Circuit City's back.

Tom C.


On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
 Bill,

 Price is really important here.
 A one dollar error is fluff to be overlooked.
 A 10,000 dollar error is something nobody will overlook.

 You and Tom C. are welcome to continue the rant against BH.
 Your rant won't save the brick and mortar shops.
 That train has left the station.
 It's wonderful that you have a Pentax retaler in Regina.
 In the Chicago metro with 6-8 million people, we have one retailer left.
 Central Camera is the only place to go for a hands on look at Pentax.

 I can wish that this was different, but I know that I won't pay
 10-20-30% extra to support a local shop.  Whenever I was given the
 choice, I voted on price.  And before you opine on all those wonderful
 services I lost, let me tell you this.  The guys behind the counters
 didn't know squat about Pentax cameras and lenses.  I get more good
 and useful feedback from this list about new products than I ever got
 from the bricks and mortar shops.

 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

 Regards,  Bob S.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:13 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I


 Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
 Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
 store shelf.
 I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
 virtual store.

 The price is not germaine, the principal behind it is what is important.
 If I can't depend on an online retailer to honour the pricing on his web
 store shelves (and lets make no mistake, that is what the BH website is),
 then what incentive do I have to go there rather than to my BM store that
 may end up having a lower cost if BH decides they don't have to honour the
 pricing on their virtual shelves.
 I can go downtown and get an honest transaction, or I can go to
 BHPhotoVideo.com and run the risk of them being dishonest with me.
 Mark mentioned Cambridge Camera as an example of who not to shop with.
 Is BH really any different?

 William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Well there's at least two others that spoke up, not counting the
original poster, who also questioned the rightness of the policy.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
 OH NO, Tom has evoked the 'silent majority'!
 Next thing I know, you'll be pelting us with tea bags.  :-)
 Is that Ronald Regan I see over your shoulder?
 Regards,  Bob S.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote:
 Exactly!

 Except I still reserve the right express my views and the rest of the
 list can excercise their right to read it or not.  There's a good 50%
 of the list I don't read based on topic alone.

 I think there's probably an equal number who see it the same way as
 Bill and I, and simply have not felt it necessary to join the
 discussion.

 All things considered though, as strongly as we feel about it, it's
 been relatively low key and even in the hiccups where things
 escalated, it's at least been entertaining.

 Tom C.



 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, John Francis jo...@panix.com wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
 I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
 certainly combined, BH has already lost far more profit than they
 would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.

 Tom C.

 Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
 having made those reprobates at BH pay for their misconduct.

 Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?


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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-05 Thread Thomas Cakalic

 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads PENTAX.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang der...@iinet.net.au wrote:
 Bob Sullivan wrote:

 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.


 Brilliant, Bob, brilliant

 --

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 http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc

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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-05 Thread Thomas Cakalic

OK... make it 4 meters.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Thomas Cakalic caka...@gmail.com wrote:
 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

 Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

 Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
 gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
 He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
 the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
 to visit would grin and say, impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
 the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
 imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
 good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
 all.

 As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
 bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
 flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
 vertically, which reads PENTAX.

 Tom C.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang der...@iinet.net.au wrote:
 Bob Sullivan wrote:

 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.


 Brilliant, Bob, brilliant

 --

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 http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc

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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

I'm gonna book my flight out there now...   Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Thomas Cakalic caka...@gmail.com wrote:
 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

 Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

 Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
 gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
 He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
 the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
 to visit would grin and say, impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
 the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
 imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
 good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
 all.

 As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
 bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
 flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
 vertically, which reads PENTAX.

 Tom C.

 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang der...@iinet.net.au wrote:
 Bob Sullivan wrote:

 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.


 Brilliant, Bob, brilliant

 --

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 http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc

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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-05 Thread Derby Chang


Thomas Cakalic wrote:

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
  


Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads PENTAX.

  



While the artic gale swirls outside, I browse through the slightly dusty 
shelves and glass cabinets. One handsome well-worn leather case catches 
my eye. Inside, a weighty talisman of a long-gone era was nestled. Many 
brave souls have held this instrument, austere in its design, well-worn 
in its black leather and titanium. A barely-hidden ring falls naturally 
into place under my left hand, an aperture control, we used to call it. 
I laugh at the imitations now. The mirror sticks, but at the last 
minute, gives way, revealing on the other side of the lens, WR, now 
unsmiling, brandishing a wee dram. How much?, I tentatively ask.


--

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http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

- Original Message - 
From: Bob Sullivan

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

Why didn't you tell me you'd been through town. I'd have treated you to a 
Papa Burger and Root Beer.

About the only part you got wrong is that Don's is a 1 story building.

William Robb 

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

2010-02-05 Thread David Savage

On 6 February 2010 06:35, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

 Why didn't you tell me you'd been through town. I'd have treated you to a
 Papa Burger and Root Beer.
 About the only part you got wrong is that Don's is a 1 story building.

But man what a story it is...

I have been avoiding this thread because I had no idea who Henry was
and why I should give a f%k about a message from him. Seems I did the
right thing because I've just wasted half an hour skim reading all the
traffic. Jesus you people can talk some shit.

I'm off to buy a new dive kit bag.

(cheaply, from a BM store for those who care)

DS

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

Sometimes warm air and sunshine addles the mind...   Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:41 PM, David Savage ozsav...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 6 February 2010 06:35, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote:

 - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan
 Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



 There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
 frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
 from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
 almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
 they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

 Why didn't you tell me you'd been through town. I'd have treated you to a
 Papa Burger and Root Beer.
 About the only part you got wrong is that Don's is a 1 story building.

 But man what a story it is...

 I have been avoiding this thread because I had no idea who Henry was
 and why I should give a f%k about a message from him. Seems I did the
 right thing because I've just wasted half an hour skim reading all the
 traffic. Jesus you people can talk some shit.

 I'm off to buy a new dive kit bag.

 (cheaply, from a BM store for those who care)

 DS

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 PDML@pdml.net
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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-05 Thread Christine Aguila

- Original Message - 
From: Derby Chang der...@iinet.net.au

To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry 
Posner,Part I)

Thomas Cakalic wrote:

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads PENTAX.

While the artic gale swirls outside, I browse through the slightly dusty 
shelves and glass cabinets. One handsome well-worn leather case catches my 
eye. Inside, a weighty talisman of a long-gone era was nestled. Many brave 
souls have held this instrument, austere in its design, well-worn in its 
black leather and titanium. A barely-hidden ring falls naturally into 
place under my left hand, an aperture control, we used to call it. I laugh 
at the imitations now. The mirror sticks, but at the last minute, gives 
way, revealing on the other side of the lens, WR, now unsmiling, 
brandishing a wee dram. How much?, I tentatively ask.

hear play girlish giggle  Fun, Derby!  Cheers, Christine

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OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

2010-02-05 Thread Stan Halpin


On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Tom C wrote:

  I've heard this .. 'The number one reason for late departures is because 
 travelers delay
 departure by not handling their carryon items properly.'
 
 WHAT???  The CUSTOMER is responsible for late departures?  Who decided
 to change their policy and charge an exhorbitant fee to check luggage,
 so that now 70% of the passengers bring the larger carrier on bags
 into the passenger compartment?  THE AIRLINE.  ...

I travel frequently, my wife has been logging 1600+ miles per week for over two 
years now. We have friends who are (former) executives at airlines, friends who 
are current or former pilots for major airlines, friends who are gate agents. 
One thing I know from my personal experience and from talking with my friends 
is that there is no such thing as THE AIRLINE. For that matter, I can't think 
of any organization with more than one or two persons which is so monolithic 
that it could be described in such terms. The bean counters at Delta, United, 
etc. try to figure ways to avoid too great a financial loss. The PR folks 
establish schedules that seem to ignore the possibility of weather, inadequate 
staffing of FAA controllers or other disruption, in order to try and fill one 
more passenger onto the plane. The cabin crew are left with trying to 
pleasantly cope with a bunch of frustrated people who would rather save a few 
bucks than check their bags (and who apparently are clueless about size 
limitations). The flight crew is left with trying to get out and away as fast 
as possible so they don't get a black mark with a late arrival. The 
experienced traveler is left to recall when airline travel was better than 
riding the Greyhound bus, as he sits with his knees in his face, his obese seat 
mate's blubber spilling across the arm rest, just hoping they get it together 
soon and get underway so that the torture will soon be over.

I did have a couple of pleasant airline experiences recently. In the first I 
flew into Flint MI, had had a very tight connection in Milwaukee. I made the 
flight, my luggage didn't. I am going to be in Midland [about 60 miles away] 
I told the person at the counter in Flint. Not a problem she said. We've 
delivered bags toTraverse City. [about 190 miles] And I had the luggage the 
next day. On my next flight in that direction I went through Detroit. Got to 
the counter for the connecting flight, found that there would be a 20-minute 
departure delay. Because it was the last flight of the day to Midland, they had 
people coming in on flights that had suffered weather delays, and they were 
waiting to try and give them a chance to make the connection. When we did 
leave, it reminded me of MASH episodes when Radar would yell Bug out! We 
pushed back from the gate, and then a minute or two later we were in the air. I 
am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway to avoid 
wasting time by going all the way out to the runway. We arrived just about on 
the scheduled time.

Air travel may be frustrating, but the airlines still have a lot of good 
service-oriented people working for them who try and make the experience as 
painless as possible.

stan
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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)