Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Adam Maas]

On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Doug Franklin  wrote:
> On 2010-02-07 16:59, mike wilson wrote:
>
>> I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during
>> the turn onto the runway. Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner
>> scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.
>
> I had a Delta pilot do that years ago, leaving Ft. Lauderdale.  The air was
> thin because it was high summer, and the plane was loaded to the gills.  We
> didn't move after we got to 3rd in line.  The pilot counted down as the
> other planes left.  Then told us we were next.  About fifteen seconds later
> he comes on the intercom to say "Y! Ha!" and slammed the
> throttles to (through?) the firewall.  We made the 180* turn from the
> taxiway to the runway at what felt like 40 knots, and we still needed every
> flappin' inch of runway available.  It was the most fun I've ever had on a
> takeoff. :-)
>
> --
> Thanks,
> DougF (KG4LMZ)
>

There's nothing quite like taking off from a 3000 foot strip on a hot
mid-afternoon in high summer at 6000 feet ASL in an aircraft
significantly larger than the one you crashed in on takeoff from the
same small strip 3 hours before due to running out of runway.

Luckily for me, the small aircraft was a Piper Apache (chronically
underpowered) and the large a DHC-5 Buffalo (which has extreme STOL
performance)

-- 
M. Adam Maas
http://www.mawz.ca
Explorations of the City Around Us.

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RE: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[mike wilson]

 Bob W  wrote: 
> I wasn't entirely sure whether or not to shit myself.

Skidmark!

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Stan Halpin]

'Tis amazing to me how airports attract videographers. On an earlier excursion 
into YouTube I saw a number of shots of planes landing on the (constrained) 
runway in Sint Maarteen. [A Dutch/French island in the Caribbean.] Fortunately 
this was after I had flown in and out of that airport. There is a 30-40 foot 
stretch of sandy beach just beyond the fence that is just beyond the end of the 
runway, so it is quite easy to stand directly beneath the very final approach.

Many decades ago, as a teen I lived in La Paz Bolivia. The airport was above 
the city, on the edge of the Altiplano. It was not paved. It was not level. It 
was at 13,000+ altitude. Fortunately the wind was seldom a factor as the 
preferred takeoff was to start at the higher end of the runway, accelerate 
downhill. (Incoming flights landed uphill.) My sense is that if you couldn't 
get airborne by the end of the runway, you'd drop off the edge of the plateau 
and have a chance of gaining sufficient airspeed to be able to recover as you 
dove. I don't think that ever actually happened.

All three Bolivian airforce planes used that airport, and during one of the 
revolutions I watched them from our porch, taking off, strafing a part of the 
city, then returning to the airport. Ah, those were the days.

stan

On Feb 7, 2010, at 11:14 PM, Anthony Farr wrote:

> This Russian pilot must have wished he had a taxiway entrance at the
> runway's end for a little extra takeoff run:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs
> 
> He backtracked all the way down the runway, and still almost ran out of 
> tarmac.
> 
> regards, Anthony
> 
>"Of what use is lens and light
>to those who lack in mind and sight"
>   (Anon)
> 
> 
> 
> On 8 February 2010 08:59, mike wilson  wrote:
>> Stan Halpin wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway
>>> to avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway.
>> 
>> I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during the
>> turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner scrubbing
>> sideways, you haven't lived.
>> 
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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Anthony Farr]

This Russian pilot must have wished he had a taxiway entrance at the
runway's end for a little extra takeoff run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs

He backtracked all the way down the runway, and still almost ran out of tarmac.

regards, Anthony

   "Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight"
   (Anon)



On 8 February 2010 08:59, mike wilson  wrote:
> Stan Halpin wrote:
>
>>
>> I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway
>> to avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway.
>
> I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during the
> turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner scrubbing
> sideways, you haven't lived.
>
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RE: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[John Coyle]

That _was_ Hong Kong - the new airport at Chek Lap Kok has a very modern
runway and terminal system: now the approach is almost boringly normal.
The most fun I had in a commercial flight was a four-seater domestic flight
in Australia, where the destination was beneath 100% cloud.  The pilot flew
forty minutes on dead-reckoning at 9800 feet, then, knowing the only mount
in the region was 1800 feet one mile from the destination runway, dropped
down to 2500 and cruised around looking for a break in the cloud.  After ten
minutes circling, he found one and we went down it like in an elevator!
Popped out under the cloud two miles from the runway and only a few degrees
off the glide path...


John in Brisbane

-Original Message-
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John
Francis
Sent: Monday, 8 February 2010 8:29 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

 
> Don't know how I stumbled onto this a few weeks ago, but I did:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE

That's Hong Kong for you.  Just enough runway to operate a Jumbo,
and mountains that prevent a traditional straight-on approach.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Larry Colen]

On Feb 7, 2010, at 4:04 PM, Doug Franklin wrote:


On 2010-02-07 16:59, mike wilson wrote:

I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration  
during

the turn onto the runway. Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner
scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.


I had a Delta pilot do that years ago, leaving Ft. Lauderdale.  The  
air was thin because it was high summer, and the plane was loaded to  
the gills.  We didn't move after we got to 3rd in line.  The pilot  
counted down as the other planes left.  Then told us we were next.   
About fifteen seconds later he comes on the intercom to say  
"Y! Ha!" and slammed the throttles to (through?) the  
firewall.  We made the 180* turn from the taxiway to the runway at  
what felt like 40 knots, and we still needed every flappin' inch of  
runway available.  It was the most fun I've ever had on a takeoff. :-)


The closest I've come to that was doing a donut in a pulse jet powered  
go-kart.



--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Doug Franklin]

On 2010-02-07 16:59, mike wilson wrote:


I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during
the turn onto the runway. Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner
scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.


I had a Delta pilot do that years ago, leaving Ft. Lauderdale.  The air 
was thin because it was high summer, and the plane was loaded to the 
gills.  We didn't move after we got to 3rd in line.  The pilot counted 
down as the other planes left.  Then told us we were next.  About 
fifteen seconds later he comes on the intercom to say "Y! 
Ha!" and slammed the throttles to (through?) the firewall.  We made 
the 180* turn from the taxiway to the runway at what felt like 40 knots, 
and we still needed every flappin' inch of runway available.  It was the 
most fun I've ever had on a takeoff. :-)


--
Thanks,
DougF (KG4LMZ)

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RE: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Bob W]

> >> I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off 
> from the taxiway to avoid wasting time by going all the way 
> out to the runway. 
> >
> >I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff 
> accelleration during 
> >the turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an 
> airliner 
> >scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.
> 
> Don't know how I stumbled onto this a few weeks ago, but I did:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE
> 

When I was a kid and we used to fly in and out of Gibraltar, Britain and
Spain were still arguing about who owned the rock. Franco had closed the
border and wouldn't allow British planes over Spanish airspace, so flights
had to make a similar peculiar manoeuvre to land and take off in a way that
avoided breaching their air space. It was a similar runway too, sticking out
into the sea. Not jumbos though. On one flight we hit an air pocket during
the strange turn and dropped quite a long way before the pilot figured out
what to do. That was pretty scary and we had to be diverted to Tangiers for
the night. You haven't lived until you've seen an aircraft full of people
vomiting in unison.

Flying out of Gatwick this afternoon we waited a long time on the taxi-way
for another flight to come in and land before ours turned onto the main
runway. I was watching it coming in and it appeared to be aiming straight
for us - I wasn't entirely sure whether or not to shit myself. In the end I
didn't, which is a good job really because the incoming plane missed us by
probably as much as 100 ft. It literally rocked the plane I was in as it
came over.

Bob


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Ken Waller]

I was told a long time ago by a pilot that this manuever was'forbidden' by 
FAA rules.


Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "John Francis" 

Subject: Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)



On Sun, Feb 07, 2010 at 09:59:36PM +, mike wilson wrote:

Stan Halpin wrote:



I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the
taxiway to avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway.


I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during
the turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner
scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.


I've had that on a commercial US flight.  We'd missed our regular takeoff
slot, but the pilot was told he could use the second (normally landing)
runway if he was quick - there was just enough time before an incoming
flight was due.  He did all the pre-flight checks on the taxiway, then
lit it up, zipped out onto the runway, and off we went.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[John Francis]

On Sun, Feb 07, 2010 at 05:12:08PM -0500, Mark Roberts wrote:
> mike wilson wrote:
> 
> >Stan Halpin wrote:
> >> 
> >> I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway 
> >> to avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway. 
> >
> >I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during 
> >the turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner 
> >scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.
> 
> Don't know how I stumbled onto this a few weeks ago, but I did:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE

That's Hong Kong for you.  Just enough runway to operate a Jumbo,
and mountains that prevent a traditional straight-on approach.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[John Francis]

On Sun, Feb 07, 2010 at 09:59:36PM +, mike wilson wrote:
> Stan Halpin wrote:
>
>>
>> I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the 
>> taxiway to avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway. 
>
> I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during  
> the turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner  
> scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.

I've had that on a commercial US flight.  We'd missed our regular takeoff
slot, but the pilot was told he could use the second (normally landing)
runway if he was quick - there was just enough time before an incoming
flight was due.  He did all the pre-flight checks on the taxiway, then
lit it up, zipped out onto the runway, and off we went.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Mark Roberts]

mike wilson wrote:

>Stan Halpin wrote:
>> 
>> I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway to 
>> avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway. 
>
>I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during 
>the turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner 
>scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.

Don't know how I stumbled onto this a few weeks ago, but I did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[mike wilson]

Stan Halpin wrote:



I am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway to avoid wasting time by going all the way out to the runway. 


I've had a pilot (Aeroflot) start his takeoff accelleration during 
the turn onto the runway.  Until you've felt the tyres of an airliner 
scrubbing sideways, you haven't lived.


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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[mike wilson]

Thomas Cakalic wrote:


OK... make it 4 meters.


Most meters aren't very big.  Let's make it metres.



On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Thomas Cakalic  wrote:


There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.


Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, "impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads "PENTAX".

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang  wrote:


Bob Sullivan wrote:


There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.



Brilliant, Bob, brilliant



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[paul stenquist]

I'll pass it along Boris.
Best,
Paul

On Feb 7, 2010, at 4:51 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:

> On 1/31/2010 9:58 PM, P N Stenquist wrote:
>> @Boris Liberman
>> B&H has a small warehouse under our Manhattan store and our main
>> warehouse is in Brooklyn. We're working on a program to distinguish
>> store stock from Brooklyn warehouse stock for our web site. Any store
>> customer who wants to buy an item that's only in stock in the Brooklyn
>> warehouse should be offered free shipping to any address in the
>> "lower-48" states.
> 
> Paul, please pass Henry (if this is at all possible) that...
> 
> 1. I was offered this shipping option but since I was coming for less than 
> one full day from Israel, it wasn't possible.
> 
> 2. I don't have any negative words to say about B&H as all my dealings with 
> them were completely flawless on their side...
> 
> 3. I appreciate the attention and time spent by Henry so as to keep their 
> hand on the pulse of the customer base.
> 
> Boris
> 
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Boris Liberman]

On 1/31/2010 9:58 PM, P N Stenquist wrote:

@Boris Liberman
B&H has a small warehouse under our Manhattan store and our main
warehouse is in Brooklyn. We're working on a program to distinguish
store stock from Brooklyn warehouse stock for our web site. Any store
customer who wants to buy an item that's only in stock in the Brooklyn
warehouse should be offered free shipping to any address in the
"lower-48" states.


Paul, please pass Henry (if this is at all possible) that...

1. I was offered this shipping option but since I was coming for less 
than one full day from Israel, it wasn't possible.


2. I don't have any negative words to say about B&H as all my dealings 
with them were completely flawless on their side...


3. I appreciate the attention and time spent by Henry so as to keep 
their hand on the pulse of the customer base.


Boris

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[John Francis]

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:59:43PM -0700, Tom C wrote:
> I've long thought that if airlines simply sold seats based upon what
> it REALLY cost them to fly, instead of giving $100 flights
> cross-country and charging somestimes an additional $300/$400 to fly
> the last 150 mile leg of a trip, they'd be better off.

Actually, to a large extent, they are.

That $300/$400 is close to the true cost of providing service to the
feeder airport - often on a "regional jet" or some other configuration
with few high-priced (business/first-class) seats.  All the overhead 
has to be covered by a small number of daily flights.

The $100 cross-country seat is an attempt to fill excess capacity on
a route which already has far more daily customers paying the regular
price (not to mention the airline target demographic - the business
and first class customers), flying between airports which amortise
the overhead over a larger route network.
The regular price for that seat could well be $400, but it's cheaper
to sell 10% of the seats at $100 than it is to fly with empty seats.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Tom C]

I've long thought that if airlines simply sold seats based upon what
it REALLY cost them to fly, instead of giving $100 flights
cross-country and charging somestimes an additional $300/$400 to fly
the last 150 mile leg of a trip, they'd be better off.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 12:51 PM, John Francis  wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:03:49PM -0700, Tom C wrote:
>>
>> I have to disagree with that analysis, in part. Of course people want
>> things at the cheapest price point, but they also realize that prices
>> do go up.  What people don't want to do is pay an EXTRA fee for
>> something that for the last 60 years appeared to be FREE.  The smart
>> thing for the airlines to have done is to increase ticket prices by
>> $10/$20 for every single passenger, a hidden luggage fee. Prices go up
>> from time-to-time anyway.
>
> Unfortunately that aproach doesn't work of routes with more than one
> choice of airline. Easy consumer access to sites such as Travelocity
> or Expedia lets potential customers see the price for each carrier.
> As soon as one airline finds a way to lower the "base price" for a
> route by any means (usually by dropping some basic amenity), the other
> airlines all seem to respond with lower prices in a very short time -
> something they would not need to do if customers were prepared to pay
> extra for the amenity in question.   But the single biggest factor
> that seems to determine how well an airline does in selling seats is
> the price it charges for each seat - price trumps everything else.
>
> This all gets complicated by the variable pricing strategy used to
> sell airline tickets - the airline's goal is to fill all the seats
> at the highest price for each seat, so the price will go up as the
> plane gets fuller, and down if there are too many empty seats left.
>
>
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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[John Francis]

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:03:49PM -0700, Tom C wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree with that analysis, in part. Of course people want
> things at the cheapest price point, but they also realize that prices
> do go up.  What people don't want to do is pay an EXTRA fee for
> something that for the last 60 years appeared to be FREE.  The smart
> thing for the airlines to have done is to increase ticket prices by
> $10/$20 for every single passenger, a hidden luggage fee. Prices go up
> from time-to-time anyway.

Unfortunately that aproach doesn't work of routes with more than one
choice of airline. Easy consumer access to sites such as Travelocity
or Expedia lets potential customers see the price for each carrier.
As soon as one airline finds a way to lower the "base price" for a
route by any means (usually by dropping some basic amenity), the other
airlines all seem to respond with lower prices in a very short time -
something they would not need to do if customers were prepared to pay
extra for the amenity in question.   But the single biggest factor
that seems to determine how well an airline does in selling seats is
the price it charges for each seat - price trumps everything else.

This all gets complicated by the variable pricing strategy used to
sell airline tickets - the airline's goal is to fill all the seats
at the highest price for each seat, so the price will go up as the
plane gets fuller, and down if there are too many empty seats left. 


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Re: [SPAM] Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Tom C]

Mark!

Lary Colen wrote:

"They might be OK for someone that doesn't know their aperture from a
hole in the ground..."

I have to say in a childish way, this is doubly funny.

Tom

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
> On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:54 AM, William Robb wrote:
>>
>> You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.
>
> The planned parenthood poster child.
>
>> We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..
>>
>> Actually, one of the things that keeps counter sales people busy is
>> showing customers how to use their cameras. For some reason, no one has ever
>> really read their owners manuals.
>
> I don't know about other brands of cameras, but the Pentax owners manuals
> are absolute shite.
> I've read mine, multiple times, and the only documentation I've found less
> useful is that from Apple.
>
> The manuals seem to be aimed at second graders that barely know which end of
> a camera to look through, and barely cover when the features might be
> useful, without saying a word about what they actually do. They might be OK
> for someone that doesn't know their aperture from a hole in the ground who
> is happy dropping a kilobuck on a large, heavy point and shoot, but woe
> betides the person who is actually trying to learn to use a camera from the
> user manual.
>
> --
> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [SPAM] Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Larry Colen]

On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:54 AM, William Robb wrote:


You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.

The planned parenthood poster child.


We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..

Actually, one of the things that keeps counter sales people busy is  
showing customers how to use their cameras. For some reason, no one  
has ever really read their owners manuals.


I don't know about other brands of cameras, but the Pentax owners  
manuals are absolute shite.
I've read mine, multiple times, and the only documentation I've found  
less useful is that from Apple.


The manuals seem to be aimed at second graders that barely know which  
end of a camera to look through, and barely cover when the features  
might be useful, without saying a word about what they actually do.  
They might be OK for someone that doesn't know their aperture from a  
hole in the ground who is happy dropping a kilobuck on a large, heavy  
point and shoot, but woe betides the person who is actually trying to  
learn to use a camera from the user manual.


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Tom C]

> A point that Tom also conveniently ignores, when assigning blame, is that THE 
> AIRLINE
> has to sell a product people will buy.  As the great American public has 
> consistently
> demonstrated, they will buy the product at the cheapest price point, no 
> matter what
> other drawbacks there are.  That means that THE AIRLINE will do everything it 
> can to
> keep the base price down, even if this means add-on fees for checked baggage. 
>  That
> same spirit of cheapness is why people will try and bring on too many (or too 
> large)
> carry-on items - they aren't prepared to pay an extra $10 for comfort, and so 
> they
> make everybody else suffer.  But I would certainly hate to be the agent that 
> had to
> tell the worst abusers that they couldn't take *that* on board.
>

I have to disagree with that analysis, in part. Of course people want
things at the cheapest price point, but they also realize that prices
do go up.  What people don't want to do is pay an EXTRA fee for
something that for the last 60 years appeared to be FREE.  The smart
thing for the airlines to have done is to increase ticket prices by
$10/$20 for every single passenger, a hidden luggage fee. Prices go up
from time-to-time anyway.

Everyone would be paying for checked luggage, whether they checked it
or not, and most people would not even notice unless it pushed the
price upward of an even $100 or $200.  On higher priced tickets it
would go virtually unnoticed. The airlines would have come out ahead,
they would not have to handle the additional burden of an additional
transaction, credit card processing, software changes, every single
thing with regard to luggage would have stayed the same. Many people
would still check their luggage, and overhead bins would be less
crowded.

Tom

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Tom C]

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 4:54 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> Example - what if I bring my camera to the local camera store in
> Regina, SK.  I tell them I can't get the histogram to display properly
> and the camera picks it own focus point.  The tall bald man with the
> mustache behind the counter brings out the manual and shows it to me
> saying "See it's your fault, you sniveling low-life excuse for a
> tapeworm.  Next time read the manual and go crawl back up in the
> butthole you came from if you can find it".
>
>
> You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.
> We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..
>

Thank you. Kind sir.

Tom C.

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/6/2010 6:54 AM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Tom C"
Subject: Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)




Example - what if I bring my camera to the local camera store in
Regina, SK.  I tell them I can't get the histogram to display properly
and the camera picks it own focus point.  The tall bald man with the
mustache behind the counter brings out the manual and shows it to me
saying "See it's your fault, you sniveling low-life excuse for a
tapeworm.  Next time read the manual and go crawl back up in the
butthole you came from if you can find it".


You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.
We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..

Actually, one of the things that keeps counter sales people busy is 
showing customers how to use their cameras. For some reason, no one 
has ever really read their owners manuals.


If POWs were requred to read most owners manuals it would be be against 
the Geneva Convention, and those aren't even the ones translated into 
English from the Japanese by Chinese who' s only western language is German.




William Robb




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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/6 John Francis :
> I must admit I've stretched the rules myself - my Pelican 1510 case qualifies 
> as
> a carry-on on most airlines, and I regularly flew with that and my computer 
> bag.
> While technically within the rules, it does push them to the extremes. But 
> I'm not
> really prepared to hand either pieces of equipment over to baggage handlers 
> if I
> can avoid it.  Sometimes it's unavoidable - the 250-600 has to go in the hold 
> -
> but generally the "one bag + one item such as a computer or camera" is enough.

hehe.
You wouldn't believe the hand luggage I got away with to Argentina and back...
It fit the volume restrictions, with a squeeze. This is what it contained:

1 K-7
1 K-7 w/grip
DA 14mm, DA 21, FA 77, DA* 300, FA* 600, DA* 60-250, DA* 16-50,
14" laptop,
3 additional portable harddrives
Sony eBook reader
Chargers, cables & mouse.
A gore-tex jacket.

I was damn lucky noone wanted to know the weight of the thing...

Jostein


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/6 Stan Halpin :

[eloquence snipped]

> Air travel may be frustrating, but the airlines still have a lot of good
> service-oriented people working for them who try and make the
> experience as painless as possible.

That's just _so_ true.

Most of my travels are to and fro London Heathrow, where the ground
crew has, occasionally, received a lot of pepper. In my experience,
however, they are really just trying their best to keep the flow of
passengers run through with as little turbulence as possible.

I'll never forget the great and professional service I received when
going home on the 21. July 2005, 12 hours after the terror attack on
the London Tube. Those guy and gals there are really trying to make
the best of a sometimes awful job.

Jostein

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C"

Subject: Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)




Example - what if I bring my camera to the local camera store in
Regina, SK.  I tell them I can't get the histogram to display properly
and the camera picks it own focus point.  The tall bald man with the
mustache behind the counter brings out the manual and shows it to me
saying "See it's your fault, you sniveling low-life excuse for a
tapeworm.  Next time read the manual and go crawl back up in the
butthole you came from if you can find it".


You'd actually be called a f#cking little wanker for that.
We are a little more direct with our language on the praries..

Actually, one of the things that keeps counter sales people busy is showing 
customers how to use their cameras. For some reason, no one has ever really 
read their owners manuals.


William Robb 



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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Bran Everseeking]

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 04:40:38 -0500
David J Brooks  wrote:

> Not enough wood in Saskatchewan t build 2 story shops. Other than
> that, good job.:-)

Regina used to be called Pile o' Bones.  used those for the shop. Up
north in Saskatoon we had to fight off the beavers.


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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[David J Brooks]

Not enough wood in Saskatchewan t build 2 story shops. Other than
that, good job.:-)

Dave

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang  wrote:
> Bob Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>>
>
> Brilliant, Bob, brilliant
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[P. J. Alling]

I've said my peice on this matter, and I'd left the thread, but just 
because I'm silent doesn't mean I've changed my mind.  While I think 
that Bill and Tom are beating a dead horse, it doesn't mean I don't 
agree with them. Unless B&H had thousands of orders based on this 
mistake I think they would have been better off to honor the contract in 
hand rather than stand on their disclaimer, weather they believe it will 
stand up in court or not.


On 2/5/2010 12:24 PM, John Francis wrote:

No - please don't.

It should be obvious to all, by now, that you and Bill stand
on one side of the issue, and a much larger number stand on
the other side.  Nobody is going to change anyones opinion,
so this topic should be dropped - its just religion/politics
now, not a sensible discourse.

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:11:08AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
   

Please post Bill, please.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb  wrote:
 

- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



   

I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of
dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll
stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.
 

Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.

I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

For myself, ?wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big B&H customer,
I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
this, I'm done with them as a customer.
They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
mind.

Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.

And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.

William Robb


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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[John Francis]

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 08:14:35PM -0600, Stan Halpin wrote:
> 
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Tom C wrote:
> 
> >  I've heard this .. 'The number one reason for late departures is because 
> > travelers delay
> > departure by not handling their carryon items properly.'
> > 
> > WHAT???  The CUSTOMER is responsible for late departures?  Who decided
> > to change their policy and charge an exhorbitant fee to check luggage,
> > so that now 70% of the passengers bring the larger carrier on bags
> > into the passenger compartment?  THE AIRLINE.  ...
> 
> I travel frequently, my wife has been logging 1600+ miles per week for over 
> two years now. We have friends who are (former) executives at airlines, 
> friends who are current or former pilots for major airlines, friends who are 
> gate agents. One thing I know from my personal experience and from talking 
> with my friends is that there is no such thing as THE AIRLINE. For that 
> matter, I can't think of any organization with more than one or two persons 
> which is so monolithic that it could be described in such terms. The bean 
> counters at Delta, United, etc. try to figure ways to avoid too great a 
> financial loss. The PR folks establish schedules that seem to ignore the 
> possibility of weather, inadequate staffing of FAA controllers or other 
> disruption, in order to try and fill one more passenger onto the plane. The 
> cabin crew are left with trying to pleasantly cope with a bunch of frustrated 
> people who would rather save a few bucks than check their bags (and who 
> apparently are clueless a
>  bout size limitations). The flight crew is left with trying to get out and 
> away as fast as possible so they don't get a black mark with a "late" 
> arrival. The experienced traveler is left to recall when airline travel was 
> better than riding the Greyhound bus, as he sits with his knees in his face, 
> his obese seat mate's blubber spilling across the arm rest, just hoping they 
> get it together soon and get underway so that the torture will soon be over.

A point that Tom also conveniently ignores, when assigning blame, is that THE 
AIRLINE
has to sell a product people will buy.  As the great American public has 
consistently
demonstrated, they will buy the product at the cheapest price point, no matter 
what
other drawbacks there are.  That means that THE AIRLINE will do everything it 
can to
keep the base price down, even if this means add-on fees for checked baggage.  
That
same spirit of cheapness is why people will try and bring on too many (or too 
large)
carry-on items - they aren't prepared to pay an extra $10 for comfort, and so 
they
make everybody else suffer.  But I would certainly hate to be the agent that 
had to
tell the worst abusers that they couldn't take *that* on board.

I must admit I've stretched the rules myself - my Pelican 1510 case qualifies as
a carry-on on most airlines, and I regularly flew with that and my computer bag.
While technically within the rules, it does push them to the extremes. But I'm 
not
really prepared to hand either pieces of equipment over to baggage handlers if I
can avoid it.  Sometimes it's unavoidable - the 250-600 has to go in the hold -
but generally the "one bag + one item such as a computer or camera" is enough.


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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Sandy Harris]

Christine  Aguila  wrote:

> > > > > There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, ...
> > > > > ... a 2 story retail beacon.

> > > > >  It's the Regina Camera shop.
> > >
> > > Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...
> > >
> > > Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
> > > gentleman ...
> > >
> > > As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
> > > bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
> > > flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
> > > vertically, which reads "PENTAX".
> >
> > While the artic gale swirls outside, I browse through the slightly dusty
> shelves and glass cabinets. 
>
>Fun, Derby!  Cheers, Christine

Amazing. You have actually made me contemplate visiting Regina!
I'm an Eastern Canadian, so that's not far short of miraculous.

Moreover, I live in the South of China because I am utterly
convinced that "snow" and "cold" are four-letter words. Perhaps
Regina in summer?

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Re: OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Tom C]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Stan Halpin  wrote:
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Tom C wrote:
>
>>  I've heard this .. 'The number one reason for late departures is because 
>> travelers delay
>> departure by not handling their carryon items properly.'
>>
>> WHAT???  The CUSTOMER is responsible for late departures?  Who decided
>> to change their policy and charge an exhorbitant fee to check luggage,
>> so that now 70% of the passengers bring the larger carrier on bags
>> into the passenger compartment?  THE AIRLINE.  ...
>

I don't doubt anything you told me Stan.  I just thought it very poor
form to pass the blame off to the customer for late departures and to
essentially tell them "it's not our fault, it's yours".  Even if that
were true, it's in very poor form to treat a customer that way.

Example - what if I bring my camera to the local camera store in
Regina, SK.  I tell them I can't get the histogram to display properly
and the camera picks it own focus point.  The tall bald man with the
mustache behind the counter brings out the manual and shows it to me
saying "See it's your fault, you sniveling low-life excuse for a
tapeworm.  Next time read the manual and go crawl back up in the
butthole you came from if you can find it".

I wouldn't like that in the same way I don't like the gate agent
trying to make me feel guilty for their crowded bins and late
departure. :-)

>> The experienced traveler is left to recall when airline travel was better 
>> than riding the Greyhound bus, as he sits with his knees in his face, his 
>> obese seat
>> mate's blubber spilling across the arm rest, just hoping they get it 
>> together soon and get underway so that the torture will soon be over.

Isn't that the truth!

Point taken.  I used the word "airline" euphmestically, probably
because the gate agent is the face person for them at that point in
time.

Tom C.

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OT: airlines (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Stan Halpin]

On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:52 AM, Tom C wrote:

>  I've heard this .. 'The number one reason for late departures is because 
> travelers delay
> departure by not handling their carryon items properly.'
> 
> WHAT???  The CUSTOMER is responsible for late departures?  Who decided
> to change their policy and charge an exhorbitant fee to check luggage,
> so that now 70% of the passengers bring the larger carrier on bags
> into the passenger compartment?  THE AIRLINE.  ...

I travel frequently, my wife has been logging 1600+ miles per week for over two 
years now. We have friends who are (former) executives at airlines, friends who 
are current or former pilots for major airlines, friends who are gate agents. 
One thing I know from my personal experience and from talking with my friends 
is that there is no such thing as THE AIRLINE. For that matter, I can't think 
of any organization with more than one or two persons which is so monolithic 
that it could be described in such terms. The bean counters at Delta, United, 
etc. try to figure ways to avoid too great a financial loss. The PR folks 
establish schedules that seem to ignore the possibility of weather, inadequate 
staffing of FAA controllers or other disruption, in order to try and fill one 
more passenger onto the plane. The cabin crew are left with trying to 
pleasantly cope with a bunch of frustrated people who would rather save a few 
bucks than check their bags (and who apparently are clueless about size 
limitations). The flight crew is left with trying to get out and away as fast 
as possible so they don't get a black mark with a "late" arrival. The 
experienced traveler is left to recall when airline travel was better than 
riding the Greyhound bus, as he sits with his knees in his face, his obese seat 
mate's blubber spilling across the arm rest, just hoping they get it together 
soon and get underway so that the torture will soon be over.

I did have a couple of pleasant airline experiences recently. In the first I 
flew into Flint MI, had had a very tight connection in Milwaukee. I made the 
flight, my luggage didn't. "I am going to be in Midland" [about 60 miles away] 
I told the person at the counter in Flint. "Not a problem" she said. "We've 
delivered bags toTraverse City." [about 190 miles] And I had the luggage the 
next day. On my next flight in that direction I went through Detroit. Got to 
the counter for the connecting flight, found that there would be a 20-minute 
departure delay. Because it was the last flight of the day to Midland, they had 
people coming in on flights that had suffered weather delays, and they were 
waiting to try and give them a chance to make the connection. When we did 
leave, it reminded me of MASH episodes when Radar would yell "Bug out!" We 
pushed back from the gate, and then a minute or two later we were in the air. I 
am still not convinced that the pilot didn't take off from the taxiway to avoid 
wasting time by going all the way out to the runway. We arrived just about on 
the scheduled time.

Air travel may be frustrating, but the airlines still have a lot of good 
service-oriented people working for them who try and make the experience as 
painless as possible.

stan
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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Christine Aguila]

- Original Message - 
From: "Derby Chang" 

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry 
Posner,Part I)




Thomas Cakalic wrote:

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.



Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, "impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads "PENTAX".





While the artic gale swirls outside, I browse through the slightly dusty 
shelves and glass cabinets. One handsome well-worn leather case catches my 
eye. Inside, a weighty talisman of a long-gone era was nestled. Many brave 
souls have held this instrument, austere in its design, well-worn in its 
black leather and titanium. A barely-hidden ring falls naturally into 
place under my left hand, an aperture control, we used to call it. I laugh 
at the imitations now. The mirror sticks, but at the last minute, gives 
way, revealing on the other side of the lens, WR, now unsmiling, 
brandishing a wee dram. "How much?", I tentatively ask.



  Fun, Derby!  Cheers, Christine




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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

Sometimes warm air and sunshine addles the mind...   Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:41 PM, David Savage  wrote:
> On 6 February 2010 06:35, William Robb  wrote:
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan"
>> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>>
>>
>>
>>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>> It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>>
>> Why didn't you tell me you'd been through town. I'd have treated you to a
>> Papa Burger and Root Beer.
>> About the only part you got wrong is that Don's is a 1 story building.
>
> But man what a story it is...
>
> I have been avoiding this thread because I had no idea who Henry was
> and why I should give a f%&k about a message from him. Seems I did the
> right thing because I've just wasted half an hour skim reading all the
> traffic. Jesus you people can talk some shit.
>
> I'm off to buy a new dive kit bag.
>
> (cheaply, from a B&M store for those who care)
>
> DS
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[David Savage]

On 6 February 2010 06:35, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan"
> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>
>
>
>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>> It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>
> Why didn't you tell me you'd been through town. I'd have treated you to a
> Papa Burger and Root Beer.
> About the only part you got wrong is that Don's is a 1 story building.

But man what a story it is...

I have been avoiding this thread because I had no idea who Henry was
and why I should give a f%&k about a message from him. Seems I did the
right thing because I've just wasted half an hour skim reading all the
traffic. Jesus you people can talk some shit.

I'm off to buy a new dive kit bag.

(cheaply, from a B&M store for those who care)

DS

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I




There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.


Why didn't you tell me you'd been through town. I'd have treated you to a 
Papa Burger and Root Beer.

About the only part you got wrong is that Don's is a 1 story building.

William Robb 



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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Derby Chang]

Thomas Cakalic wrote:

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
  


Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, "impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads "PENTAX".

  



While the artic gale swirls outside, I browse through the slightly dusty 
shelves and glass cabinets. One handsome well-worn leather case catches 
my eye. Inside, a weighty talisman of a long-gone era was nestled. Many 
brave souls have held this instrument, austere in its design, well-worn 
in its black leather and titanium. A barely-hidden ring falls naturally 
into place under my left hand, an aperture control, we used to call it. 
I laugh at the imitations now. The mirror sticks, but at the last 
minute, gives way, revealing on the other side of the lens, WR, now 
unsmiling, brandishing a wee dram. "How much?", I tentatively ask.


--

der...@iinet.net.au
http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc

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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Bob Sullivan]

I'm gonna book my flight out there now...   Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Thomas Cakalic  wrote:
>>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>
> Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...
>
> Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
> gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
> He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
> the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
> to visit would grin and say, "impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
> the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
> imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
> good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
> all.
>
> As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
> bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
> flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
> vertically, which reads "PENTAX".
>
> Tom C.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang  wrote:
>> Bob Sullivan wrote:
>>>
>>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>>>
>>
>> Brilliant, Bob, brilliant
>>
>> --
>>
>> der...@iinet.net.au
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc
>>
>> --
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>> follow the directions.
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>
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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Thomas Cakalic]

OK... make it 4 meters.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Thomas Cakalic  wrote:
>>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>
> Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...
>
> Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
> gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
> He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
> the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
> to visit would grin and say, "impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
> the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
> imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
> good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
> all.
>
> As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
> bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
> flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
> vertically, which reads "PENTAX".
>
> Tom C.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang  wrote:
>> Bob Sullivan wrote:
>>>
>>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>>>
>>
>> Brilliant, Bob, brilliant
>>
>> --
>>
>> der...@iinet.net.au
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc
>>
>> --
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>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>> follow the directions.
>>
>

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Re: J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Thomas Cakalic]

>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

Yes, an evocative image!... if I may continue...

Inside the shop, hard at work is a tall, distinguished, balding
gentleman who wears a perpetual smile with a grey mustachio above it.
He is known simply as WR by his friends and foes alike. Foes, perish
the thought! That is, as the French Canadiens who come from all over
to visit would grin and say, "impossible' .  He works hard at keeping
the shop stocked with every kind and brand of photography gear
imaginable.  The shop is a virtual treasure chest, a cornucopia of all
good things photographic, and WR is a true and cherished friend to
all.

As we enter the shop, walking through the lattice-windowed door, a
bell tinkles.  WR is on a stepladder installing a 10 meter high
flourescent sign in the eastern window, with large red letters running
vertically, which reads "PENTAX".

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Derby Chang  wrote:
> Bob Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
>> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
>> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
>> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
>> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>>
>
> Brilliant, Bob, brilliant
>
> --
>
> der...@iinet.net.au
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Well there's at least two others that spoke up, not counting the
original poster, who also questioned the rightness of the policy.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> OH NO, Tom has evoked the 'silent majority'!
> Next thing I know, you'll be pelting us with tea bags.  :-)
> Is that Ronald Regan I see over your shoulder?
> Regards,  Bob S.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Tom C  wrote:
>> Exactly!
>>
>> Except I still reserve the right express my views and the rest of the
>> list can excercise their right to read it or not.  There's a good 50%
>> of the list I don't read based on topic alone.
>>
>> I think there's probably an equal number who see it the same way as
>> Bill and I, and simply have not felt it necessary to join the
>> discussion.
>>
>> All things considered though, as strongly as we feel about it, it's
>> been relatively low key and even in the hiccups where things
>> escalated, it's at least been entertaining.
>>
>> Tom C.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, John Francis  wrote:
>>> On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
 I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
 certainly combined, B&H has already lost far more profit than they
 would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.

 Tom C.
>>>
>>> Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
>>> having made those reprobates at B&H pay for their misconduct.
>>>
>>> Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?
>>>
>>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Tom here... speaking as Tom... The Tom, Tom t Tom Tom, TO. :-)

Yes Bob, there's certainly a cutoff point where unreasonable
expectations cannot be assuaged.  I would not reasonably expect to
purchase a $10,000 camera for $1000 if that was the nature of the
pricing error, for example.

We were discussing a far lesser amount, and it was combined with the
fact that ithe tem had been SOLD, receipt of sale received.

Let's turn the scenario around. If I were looking at an item on a
website that had terms of 'No cancellations/refunds/returns', managed
to click accidentally and put it in my shopping cart, and then
completed the purchase (not unreasonable considering that some stores
retain your filled shopping cart if you leave w/o purchasing), and
then I attempted to cancel the transaction saying I had clicked in
error, I would expect to get the heave-ho and be stuck with the item.
How is that any different than a retailer making an error by clicking
the keys, typing the word PAIR, and then having a transaction come
through to completion? I would expect them to follow through with the
sale, just as they would expect me to honor my agreement to purchase.

Three years back I purchased a DVD Recorder/VCR combo from Circuit
City.  The website said it was the same price in store.  I drove the
30 miles. The item had a price of $100.00 too high on the shelf tag.
I got a salesager to help me.  No, he didn't think I was right.  I had
him pull up the website.  Sure enough, I was not mistaken.  Guess what
happened next?  He wrote up a sales ticket, except instead of writing
$280.00, he wrote $200.00.  I thought I'd just wait and watch.  He
walked me up to pay and handed the sales ticket to the cashier telling
her an override would be be needed.  Yep it rang up at $380.00. Yep,
then 2nd salesager manager comes over, looks at the transaction, and
performs the override.

Right there I got an item at pretty close to 50% off.  Did I feel bad?
 I had a twinge, but with the recognition that it's likely another
customer (or more) walked in and did not receive the promotional
price, paying $100 too much. Had the price been correct on the shelf,
and had their sales staff been properly trained (or folloed their
training), the error in my favor would not have occurred at all.  So
it was really a matter of cause and effect

I guess that might have been the straw that broke Circuit City's back.

Tom C.


On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Price is really important here.
> A one dollar error is fluff to be overlooked.
> A 10,000 dollar error is something nobody will overlook.
>
> You and Tom C. are welcome to continue the rant against B&H.
> Your rant won't save the brick and mortar shops.
> That train has left the station.
> It's wonderful that you have a Pentax retaler in Regina.
> In the Chicago metro with 6-8 million people, we have one retailer left.
> Central Camera is the only place to go for a hands on look at Pentax.
>
> I can wish that this was different, but I know that I won't pay
> 10-20-30% extra to support a local shop.  Whenever I was given the
> choice, I voted on price.  And before you opine on all those wonderful
> services I lost, let me tell you this.  The guys behind the counters
> didn't know squat about Pentax cameras and lenses.  I get more good
> and useful feedback from this list about new products than I ever got
> from the bricks and mortar shops.
>
> There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
> frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
> from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
>  It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
> almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
> they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
>
> Regards,  Bob S.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:13 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan"
>> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
>>> Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
>>> store shelf.
>>> I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
>>> virtual store.
>>
>> The price is not germaine, the principal behind it is what is important.
>> If I can't depend on an online retailer to honour the pricing on his web
>> store shelves (and lets make no mistake, that is what the B&H website is),
>> then what incentive do I have to go there rather than to my B&M store that
>> may end up having a lower cost if B&H decides they don't have to 

J. Peterman, hire this man (was Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I)

[Derby Chang]

Bob Sullivan wrote:

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.
  


Brilliant, Bob, brilliant

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http://members.iinet.net.au/~derbyc

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

OH NO, Tom has evoked the 'silent majority'!
Next thing I know, you'll be pelting us with tea bags.  :-)
Is that Ronald Regan I see over your shoulder?
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Tom C  wrote:
> Exactly!
>
> Except I still reserve the right express my views and the rest of the
> list can excercise their right to read it or not.  There's a good 50%
> of the list I don't read based on topic alone.
>
> I think there's probably an equal number who see it the same way as
> Bill and I, and simply have not felt it necessary to join the
> discussion.
>
> All things considered though, as strongly as we feel about it, it's
> been relatively low key and even in the hiccups where things
> escalated, it's at least been entertaining.
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, John Francis  wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
>>> I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
>>> certainly combined, B&H has already lost far more profit than they
>>> would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.
>>>
>>> Tom C.
>>
>> Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
>> having made those reprobates at B&H pay for their misconduct.
>>
>> Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?
>>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Exactly!

Except I still reserve the right express my views and the rest of the
list can excercise their right to read it or not.  There's a good 50%
of the list I don't read based on topic alone.

I think there's probably an equal number who see it the same way as
Bill and I, and simply have not felt it necessary to join the
discussion.

All things considered though, as strongly as we feel about it, it's
been relatively low key and even in the hiccups where things
escalated, it's at least been entertaining.

Tom C.



On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, John Francis  wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
>> I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
>> certainly combined, B&H has already lost far more profit than they
>> would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.
>>
>> Tom C.
>
> Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
> having made those reprobates at B&H pay for their misconduct.
>
> Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?
>

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

Sorry Tom,
A guy with a virtual gun stole all my virtual money.  ;-)
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Tom C  wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I'm a virtual store and will gladly accept your virtual money, in any
> amount, denomination or currency.  HAND IT OVER!
>
> :-)
>
> Tom C.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
>> Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
>> Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
>> store shelf.
>> I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
>> virtual store.
>> Regards, Bob S.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
>>> William Robb wrote:
>>>
I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>>>
>>> Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
>>> seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
>>> work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
>>> They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.
>>>
>>> Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
>>> the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
>>> That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
>>> was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
>>> sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
>>> store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
>>> to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
>>> store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
>>> and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
>>> 200. Or 800. B&H's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
>>> a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
>>> mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
>>> happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
>>> 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
>>> site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
>>> of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
>>> at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
>>> (good luck "proving" it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
>>> aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
>>> seller claims that was the case).
>>>
>>> Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
>>> upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
>>> re-priced everything he sells.
>>>
>>> Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
>>> for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
>>> error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
>>> to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
>>> state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
>>> of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
>>> they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
>>> be protected, too.
>>>
>>> The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
>>> carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
>>> the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
>>> hand, is treated as "informational" like the price in a printed
>>> advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.
>>>
>>> Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
>>> speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
>>> as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
>>> the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
>>> of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.
>>>
>>>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

Bill,

Price is really important here.
A one dollar error is fluff to be overlooked.
A 10,000 dollar error is something nobody will overlook.

You and Tom C. are welcome to continue the rant against B&H.
Your rant won't save the brick and mortar shops.
That train has left the station.
It's wonderful that you have a Pentax retaler in Regina.
In the Chicago metro with 6-8 million people, we have one retailer left.
Central Camera is the only place to go for a hands on look at Pentax.

I can wish that this was different, but I know that I won't pay
10-20-30% extra to support a local shop.  Whenever I was given the
choice, I voted on price.  And before you opine on all those wonderful
services I lost, let me tell you this.  The guys behind the counters
didn't know squat about Pentax cameras and lenses.  I get more good
and useful feedback from this list about new products than I ever got
from the bricks and mortar shops.

There's an image forming in my mind of Regina, a windswept town on the
frozen tundra of Canada, miles from the nearest neighbors.  Rising
from the plains of 1 story homes and shops is a 2 story retail beacon.
 It's the Regina Camera shop.  In the early evening darkness I can
almost see the faces of the customers, bundled against the cold, as
they wind thru the streets toward the brightly lit shop.

Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:13 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message ----- From: "Bob Sullivan"
> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>
>
>> Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
>> Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
>> store shelf.
>> I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
>> virtual store.
>
> The price is not germaine, the principal behind it is what is important.
> If I can't depend on an online retailer to honour the pricing on his web
> store shelves (and lets make no mistake, that is what the B&H website is),
> then what incentive do I have to go there rather than to my B&M store that
> may end up having a lower cost if B&H decides they don't have to honour the
> pricing on their virtual shelves.
> I can go downtown and get an honest transaction, or I can go to
> B&HPhotoVideo.com and run the risk of them being dishonest with me.
> Mark mentioned Cambridge Camera as an example of who not to shop with.
> Is B&H really any different?
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Francis" 
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I





No - please don't.



Mafud once said:

"Bill Robb will be the one to put the Muslim in his place. "

Now it's Henry's turn.

HAR!!



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan" 
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



Bill,
After your story, Lynn will have to sell her Home Depot stock...

Consider, Home Depot is doing very well, Lowes OTOH..

William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[George Sinos]

Hi Bill -

I agree, as long as this remains a small percentage of customers, it
can be handled.  I was just trying to point out there there are
problems on both sides of the cash register.  As long as both parties
treat each other with the benefit of the doubt, we're all better off
for it.

My daughter worked at the Home Depot for about a year and told me
similar stories.  I've worked at Camera and Stereo/Audio stores and
could also tell tales that would make you cringe.  I don't know how
people can live with themselves when they do that kind of stuff.  It's
clearly dishonest.

I'm lucky to have a great retail camera store, Rockbrook Camera,
 right here in town.  This place is
family owned, and in an era where camera stores are closing, they are
growing.  They recently expanded by opening another store.

You can read about them here if your curious.


That being said, there are times when I need some oddball item faster
than they can order it and I've usually turned to B&H.  I especially
like the shipping discount offered to NAPP members.

I feel like I've been treated fairly by both companies.

Fair disclosure - For the most part I'm just a Rockbrook customer, but
after doing business with them for decades, I teach a Saturday morning
class for them about three times a year.

George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[John Francis]

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:29:52AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
> I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
> certainly combined, B&H has already lost far more profit than they
> would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.
> 
> Tom C.

Oh, good.  Sou you can retire to your corner with a smug feeling of
having made those reprobates at B&H pay for their misconduct.

Now can the rest of us get on with our lives?


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[P N Stenquist]

On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Tom C wrote:

It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is  
known for

this sort of behaviour.
It is something else entirely for B&H Photo to insult Bill Robb,  
who has

been a good customer of theirs.

William Robb


MARK!



Mark knows better, believe me.



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:23 PM, P N Stenquist  wrote:
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Tom C wrote:
>
>>> It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known
>>> for
>>> this sort of behaviour.
>>> It is something else entirely for B&H Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has
>>> been a good customer of theirs.
>>>
>>> William Robb
>>
>> MARK!
>>
>
> Mark knows better, believe me.
>

Great now we don't have an unbiased collector of "MARKS!"  This
deserves a review panel.

Tom C.

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[John Francis]

No - please don't.

It should be obvious to all, by now, that you and Bill stand
on one side of the issue, and a much larger number stand on
the other side.  Nobody is going to change anyones opinion,
so this topic should be dropped - its just religion/politics
now, not a sensible discourse.

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 09:11:08AM -0500, Tom C wrote:
> Please post Bill, please.
> 
> Tom C.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb  wrote:
> >
> > - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> > Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of
> >> dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll
> >> stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
> >> specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
> >> following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
> >> they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.
> >
> > Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
> > cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.
> >
> > I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
> > quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
> > clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
> > you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
> > If you'd care to, answer me this time.
> >
> > In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
> > (most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
> >
> > For myself, ?wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
> > tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big B&H customer,
> > I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
> > this, I'm done with them as a customer.
> > They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
> > mind.
> >
> > Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
> > Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
> > therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
> > suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
> > never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
> > gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.
> >
> > And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
> > for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
> > invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.
> >
> > William Robb
> >
> >
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Bob,

I'm a virtual store and will gladly accept your virtual money, in any
amount, denomination or currency.  HAND IT OVER!

:-)

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
> Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
> store shelf.
> I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
> virtual store.
> Regards, Bob S.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
>> William Robb wrote:
>>
>>>I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
>>>quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
>>>clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
>>>you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
>>>If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>>>
>>>In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
>>>(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>>
>> Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
>> seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
>> work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
>> They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.
>>
>> Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
>> the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
>> That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
>> was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
>> sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
>> store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
>> to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
>> store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
>> and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
>> 200. Or 800. B&H's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
>> a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
>> mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
>> happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
>> 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
>> site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
>> of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
>> at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
>> (good luck "proving" it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
>> aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
>> seller claims that was the case).
>>
>> Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
>> upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
>> re-priced everything he sells.
>>
>> Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
>> for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
>> error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
>> to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
>> state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
>> of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
>> they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
>> be protected, too.
>>
>> The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
>> carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
>> the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
>> hand, is treated as "informational" like the price in a printed
>> advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.
>>
>> Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
>> speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
>> as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
>> the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
>> of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.
>>
>>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

> It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known for
> this sort of behaviour.
> It is something else entirely for B&H Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has
> been a good customer of theirs.
>
> William Robb

MARK!

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

Bill,
After your story, Lynn will have to sell her Home Depot stock...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:57 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "George Sinos"
> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>
>
>
>> These people raise the cost of doing business which raises prices for all
>> of us.
>>
>> You guy with the attitude of "the store should eat the cost."  You do
>> understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
>> raises the price for everyone else, don't you?
>
> Dammit Geoge, I hate it when you make a liar out of me.
> For the past 9 months or so, I have been slinging lumber at my local Home
> Depot.
> Here are some actual returns I've dealt with:
> A cart load of 5/4x6/16' PT deck boards returned.
> The top layer was new wood, the bottom 40 boards had been pulled off a deck.
> I presume they replaced old wood with new and successfully returned the old
> product.
> Odd length boards such as 11 foot runs. We sell 8', 10' and 12'
> Soketimes you get to see where the customer calculated his cut and them
> marked it wrong.
> Boards with screws still embedded in them (I hit that with my radial arm saw
> when cutting it down to cull and I wouldn't be happy).
> Sheets of plywood that have been cut up and then returned because they did
> the cuts wrong.
> If you like, I can post a picture of a sheet of MDF that was broken by a
> vehicle driving over it.
> We gave them their money back for it, too.
> Broken sheets of drywall.
> A pail of drywall mud that had been opened and partially used.
> Two end plates from single device electrical boxes that the customer had
> bought, made a single two gang box with and then returned the unused end
> plates for a full refund.
>
> I bitched and moaned about this sort of thing at a Towne Hall metting once
> and was told that this sort of thing was a very small % of returns, and that
> the company's position was that it wasn't worth annoying customers over.
> We eat the loss, write off the product at full retail and I am sure that the
> Harvard guys figure out some way to turn it into a financial windfall.
>
> The point is, a good retailer takes the point of view that the customer,
> while not always right, at least deserves the benefit of the doubt, and
> should not be called out as a liar by the retailer.
>
> In the situation that led us to this thread, had B&H been as good a retailer
> as Home Depot is, they would have taken the hit, and not had the bad PR that
> anyone doing a Google search is going to give them when people find this
> thread.
> B&H has not only made it plain that they will not stand behind their pricing
> when they find it inconvenient, they have sicced one of their
> representatives onto this forum and he, in turn, has cast a few insults at
> forum members.
>
> It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known for
> this sort of behaviour.
> It is something else entirely for B&H Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has
> been a good customer of theirs.
>
> William Robb
>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
store shelf.
I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
virtual store.


The price is not germaine, the principal behind it is what is important.
If I can't depend on an online retailer to honour the pricing on his web 
store shelves (and lets make no mistake, that is what the B&H website is), 
then what incentive do I have to go there rather than to my B&M store that 
may end up having a lower cost if B&H decides they don't have to honour the 
pricing on their virtual shelves.
I can go downtown and get an honest transaction, or I can go to 
B&HPhotoVideo.com and run the risk of them being dishonest with me.

Mark mentioned Cambridge Camera as an example of who not to shop with.
Is B&H really any different?

William Robb 



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

The principle is the same. We were not talking about massive high
volume sales where the retailer loses his shirt.  We're talking about
one transaction of two items to one customer, and it was not a high
priced item.

I don't see that any sanity was injected into it.  What's insane is
for a retailer to alienate their customers when by a relatively small
gesture, they could make them happy and most probably lock in their
repeat business.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
> Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
> store shelf.
> I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
> virtual store.
> Regards, Bob S.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
>> William Robb wrote:
>>
>>>I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
>>>quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
>>>clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
>>>you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
>>>If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>>>
>>>In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
>>>(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>>
>> Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
>> seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
>> work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
>> They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.
>>
>> Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
>> the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
>> That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
>> was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
>> sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
>> store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
>> to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
>> store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
>> and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
>> 200. Or 800. B&H's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
>> a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
>> mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
>> happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
>> 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
>> site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
>> of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
>> at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
>> (good luck "proving" it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
>> aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
>> seller claims that was the case).
>>
>> Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
>> upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
>> re-priced everything he sells.
>>
>> Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
>> for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
>> error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
>> to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
>> state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
>> of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
>> they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
>> be protected, too.
>>
>> The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
>> carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
>> the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
>> hand, is treated as "informational" like the price in a printed
>> advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.
>>
>> Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
>> speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
>> as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
>> the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
>> of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.
>>
>>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "George Sinos"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



These people raise the cost of doing business which raises prices for all 
of us.


You guy with the attitude of "the store should eat the cost."  You do
understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
raises the price for everyone else, don't you?


Dammit Geoge, I hate it when you make a liar out of me.
For the past 9 months or so, I have been slinging lumber at my local Home 
Depot.

Here are some actual returns I've dealt with:
A cart load of 5/4x6/16' PT deck boards returned.
The top layer was new wood, the bottom 40 boards had been pulled off a deck.
I presume they replaced old wood with new and successfully returned the old 
product.

Odd length boards such as 11 foot runs. We sell 8', 10' and 12'
Soketimes you get to see where the customer calculated his cut and them 
marked it wrong.
Boards with screws still embedded in them (I hit that with my radial arm saw 
when cutting it down to cull and I wouldn't be happy).
Sheets of plywood that have been cut up and then returned because they did 
the cuts wrong.
If you like, I can post a picture of a sheet of MDF that was broken by a 
vehicle driving over it.

We gave them their money back for it, too.
Broken sheets of drywall.
A pail of drywall mud that had been opened and partially used.
Two end plates from single device electrical boxes that the customer had 
bought, made a single two gang box with and then returned the unused end 
plates for a full refund.


I bitched and moaned about this sort of thing at a Towne Hall metting once 
and was told that this sort of thing was a very small % of returns, and that 
the company's position was that it wasn't worth annoying customers over.
We eat the loss, write off the product at full retail and I am sure that the 
Harvard guys figure out some way to turn it into a financial windfall.


The point is, a good retailer takes the point of view that the customer, 
while not always right, at least deserves the benefit of the doubt, and 
should not be called out as a liar by the retailer.


In the situation that led us to this thread, had B&H been as good a retailer 
as Home Depot is, they would have taken the hit, and not had the bad PR that 
anyone doing a Google search is going to give them when people find this 
thread.
B&H has not only made it plain that they will not stand behind their pricing 
when they find it inconvenient, they have sicced one of their 
representatives onto this forum and he, in turn, has cast a few insults at 
forum members.


It's one thing for Bill Robb to insult Henry Posner, Bill Robb is known for 
this sort of behaviour.
It is something else entirely for B&H Photo to insult Bill Robb, who has 
been a good customer of theirs.


William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

Thanks Mark for putting some sanity back into this thread.
Bill wants to argue like this is some 2 dollar item picked off of the
store shelf.
I think the situation changes with the price of the item and in the
virtual store.
Regards, Bob S.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
> William Robb wrote:
>
>>I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
>>quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
>>clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
>>you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
>>If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>>
>>In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
>>(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>
> Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
> seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
> work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
> They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.
>
> Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
> the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
> That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
> was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
> sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
> store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
> to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
> store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
> and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
> 200. Or 800. B&H's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
> a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
> mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
> happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
> 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
> site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
> of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
> at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
> (good luck "proving" it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
> aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
> seller claims that was the case).
>
> Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
> upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
> re-priced everything he sells.
>
> Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
> for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
> error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
> to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
> state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
> of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
> they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
> be protected, too.
>
> The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
> carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
> the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
> hand, is treated as "informational" like the price in a printed
> advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.
>
> Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
> speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
> as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
> the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
> of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.
>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Not the selling price of THE item, but across the board in terms of
overall markup.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Tom C  wrote:
> Those were also my thoughts Bill. The person wouldn't have to find the
> spikes, simply review the ones reported.
>
> I can't say what the transaction volume/min on a given item is... but
> I can imagine were not talking about something like 50 Pentax K-7's or
> 10 Nikon D3x's sold per minute. The software could even track
> inventory data and regularly update a database containing sales volume
> per item in a time frame, last month, last week, yesterday, last hour,
> last minute.  If at any point, a threshhold is crossed, the software
> would run the proverbial red flag up the flagpole, temporarily suspend
> sales of the item, and generate high priority e-mails, pages, or phone
> calls to the appropriate personnel to alert them.
>
> If not excessive, I think most businesses view pricing errors as a
> cost of doing business and to some degree it's already reflected in
> the selling price, just like shrinks, returns, damages, etc.
>
> Tom C.
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:19 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>>
>> What you'd need is an item tracker to find spikes and a person who's
>> responsibility it is to track back to the website to see if the spike is
>> caused by incorrect pricing.
>> It would mean having someone with the ability to correct pricing errors
>> manning a terminal 24/7, but considering that B&H and it's ilk has done a
>> very effective job of killing B&M stores by not employing people, perhaps it
>> would only be fair to ask them to hire a few people whose job is to keep
>> them honest.
>

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Those were also my thoughts Bill. The person wouldn't have to find the
spikes, simply review the ones reported.

I can't say what the transaction volume/min on a given item is... but
I can imagine were not talking about something like 50 Pentax K-7's or
10 Nikon D3x's sold per minute. The software could even track
inventory data and regularly update a database containing sales volume
per item in a time frame, last month, last week, yesterday, last hour,
last minute.  If at any point, a threshhold is crossed, the software
would run the proverbial red flag up the flagpole, temporarily suspend
sales of the item, and generate high priority e-mails, pages, or phone
calls to the appropriate personnel to alert them.

If not excessive, I think most businesses view pricing errors as a
cost of doing business and to some degree it's already reflected in
the selling price, just like shrinks, returns, damages, etc.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:19 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> What you'd need is an item tracker to find spikes and a person who's
> responsibility it is to track back to the website to see if the spike is
> caused by incorrect pricing.
> It would mean having someone with the ability to correct pricing errors
> manning a terminal 24/7, but considering that B&H and it's ilk has done a
> very effective job of killing B&M stores by not employing people, perhaps it
> would only be fair to ask them to hire a few people whose job is to keep
> them honest.

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

>
> You guy with the attitude of "the store should eat the cost."  You do
> understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
> raises the price for everyone else, don't you?
>

Does it?  Only if the retailer makes it so.

On the other hand, the increased sales because you have a happy
customer and now enjoy the benefits of their repeat business can
quickly surpass the temporal "loss". Then that customer tells his
friends, 'You know what happened?', and his friends think next time
they want to make a purchase, 'Wow ABC company really treated my
friend right.  I think I'll check out their website first'.

So many many businesses are shortsighted and only see the tangible,
when it's often the intangible that is of higher value.

Since I'm no longer purchasing from B&H, and they will not have the
benefit of my $ paying the gross margin, and consequently stock for
which they've paid for sits longer in the warehouse, does that raise
the price for everyone else?

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

... also large companies have software that automatically orders and
replenishes stock, think of the risk inherent in that.  So certainly
software of this nature exists.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
> Tom C wrote:
>
>>Ugh! :-)
>>
>>I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
>>item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
>>scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
>>the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
>>retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
>>and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
>>in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
>>is foolish.
>
> Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
> definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
> tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
> something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
> between "good" sales spikes and "bad" ones. (And staff to deal with
> pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
> mistake.)
>
>>Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
>>are specifically flagged to allow it.
>
> I'd guess that's exactly what happened in the case that started all
> this. The company running the web site has the *price* of the items
> for sale but it's unlikely that any large retailer would allow their
> *cost* information out of house. So the discrepancy won't be detected
> until the web host forwards the order information to the retailer.
>
>>On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
>>stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
>>the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
>>is everything else not the same?
>
> The cashier in Bill's mis-priced milk scenario can see if there are
> 1000 other customers in line with mis-priced milk. The online retailer
> can't (until it's too late). If the online store is required to sell
> just one mis-priced item because the loss isn't "huge", what do they
> tell the second person in line? For that matter, how does the second
> person know they're not being lied to and they really *are* the first
> person in line? (I think that's what Cambridge Camera Exchange would
> do!)
>
> The answer to pretty much all of the above is that a lot of best
> practices for the real world simply don't scale to the virtual one.
> Comparison of one to the other is fundamentally flawed.
>
> I looked for online retailers who promised to honor the prices
> advertised on their site even in the event of a mistake. I couldn't
> find any. (They're probably out there if you look hard enough, but
> I'll bet they're small, newbie operations that haven't been bitten
> yet. Or sellers of v...@gra, pr0n, etc. who have no intention of
> honoring the promise.)
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[George Sinos]

Just tagging onto the thread here.  Responding in general, not to
Marks specifics.

I've been following this for a couple of days and what surprises me is
the attitude of "aha, I caught you, the rules say you have to do this,
so there!"

Because of long standing experience with B&H I'm convinced this was a
mistake.  But it would not make any difference to me.

If I was approached by any vendor that said, "we made a mistake,
here's how we would like to make up for it.  You won't get as good a
deal as you thought, but it will be the best we can do or we'll take
the mdse back at our expense, refund your money and call it a day."

I don't think I could say "aha, the law says you have too lose money
because  there are other people in the past that have done this on
purpose."   I wouldn't feel right treating anyone that way.

I would of course, take this into account in future transactions.

Now, on the subject of bad customers.  Yes, they do exist.

Women, for example, that buy a dress, wear it to a function, and
return the dress to the store.

A friend's wife, who bought several place settings of fine silver for
a party, used it, washed it, and returned it to the store.

The handy homeowner who buys a tool, uses it for one job, then takes
advantage of the store's "no questions asked" policy to return the
tool.  (Ask anyone who's worked in the Sears tool dept.)

These people raise the cost of doing business which raises prices for all of us.

You guy with the attitude of "the store should eat the cost."  You do
understand that that raises the cost of doing business which only
raises the price for everyone else, don't you?

>From the standpoint of learning about human nature, the most valuable
jobs I ever had were the retail jobs I worked while going through
school.

Stepping down from my soapbox now, gs

-- 
George Sinos

www.georgesphotos.net

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

The thing is, it's not difficult to implement, it's just a matter if doing it.

Will it cost money for the online retailer to do it? Yes.  Would it
potentially save them money if implemented? Likely yes.

The online retailers are already reducing overheads and maximizing
profits by 1) not usually have a physical location with a store front,
2) having essentially no sales staff, and 3) many times drop-shipping
an item straight from a manufacturer to the customer's door, meaning
that they didn't even have to maintain an inventory, and did not incur
the item cost until it was purchased.

Detecting sales spikes is simply a matter of setting threshholds,
recording item and time of each sale, and then a batch process running
that continually analyzes the data and flips a switch if a probable
problem is detected.  As you know the NYSE has software that operates
on this principle, and guess what? AFAIK, up to the point it kicks in,
the trades are valid and legal.

I disagree with the notion that there is any inherent difference
between putting a physical price tag on an item or display shelf, and
entering that same information into a computer screen, except that the
computer screen likely shows far more information (item cost,
description, units of sale like single or pair) to the person, and
should enable one to catch pricing issues more easily than when a low
paid, unknowledgable clerk hangs a price tag.

As far as where to cut it off in the case of volume sales, that's up
to the vendor.  One way to handle it, other than the monitoring
software, is to have sales of certain items only be finalized after
further review and approval, which could take no more than several
minutes.

It seems what you would do is put the majority of the responsiblity on
the customer, and abrogate the responsibility of the retailer, which
if done, will simply lead to sloppy(ier) business practices.

Tom C.


On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
> Tom C wrote:
>
>>Ugh! :-)
>>
>>I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
>>item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
>>scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
>>the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
>>retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
>>and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
>>in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
>>is foolish.
>
> Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
> definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
> tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
> something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
> between "good" sales spikes and "bad" ones. (And staff to deal with
> pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
> mistake.)
>
>>Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
>>are specifically flagged to allow it.
>
> I'd guess that's exactly what happened in the case that started all
> this. The company running the web site has the *price* of the items
> for sale but it's unlikely that any large retailer would allow their
> *cost* information out of house. So the discrepancy won't be detected
> until the web host forwards the order information to the retailer.
>
>>On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
>>stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
>>the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
>>is everything else not the same?
>
> The cashier in Bill's mis-priced milk scenario can see if there are
> 1000 other customers in line with mis-priced milk. The online retailer
> can't (until it's too late). If the online store is required to sell
> just one mis-priced item because the loss isn't "huge", what do they
> tell the second person in line? For that matter, how does the second
> person know they're not being lied to and they really *are* the first
> person in line? (I think that's what Cambridge Camera Exchange would
> do!)
>
> The answer to pretty much all of the above is that a lot of best
> practices for the real world simply don't scale to the virtual one.
> Comparison of one to the other is fundamentally flawed.
>
> I looked for online retailers who promised to honor the prices
> advertised on their site even in the event of a mistake. I couldn't
> find any. (They're probably out there if you look hard enough, but
> I'll bet they're small, newbie operations that haven't been bitten
> yet. Or sellers of v...@gra, pr0n, etc. who have no intention of
> honoring the promise.)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Roberts"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I




Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
between "good" sales spikes and "bad" ones. (And staff to deal with
pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
mistake.)


What you'd need is an item tracker to find spikes and a person who's 
responsibility it is to track back to the website to see if the spike is 
caused by incorrect pricing.
It would mean having someone with the ability to correct pricing errors 
manning a terminal 24/7, but considering that B&H and it's ilk has done a 
very effective job of killing B&M stores by not employing people, perhaps it 
would only be fair to ask them to hire a few people whose job is to keep 
them honest.
At what point do these places have a right to practice breach of contract? 
Is it a 2 for 1 price mistake such as what this thread is about? What 
happens if it is a fifty dollar mistake on a five hundred dollar item? What 
happens when the price is believable but they decide that it is too low and 
so arbitraritly decide to raise it, cancelling good faith transactions at 
the same time?
What happens when they arbitrarily cancel back orders because they decide 
that it is inconvenient to fullfill the order?
What happens when a customer chooses B&H for the low price, eschewing 
another retailer who is slightly higher, only to have B&H dishonour the 
contract and then said customer finds that everone has raised their price 
and he is screwed because he tried to be a smart shopper when in reality if 
he had been smart, he would have bought from the somewhat higher priced 
seller whose pricing was correct at the time?


All this makes me very glad that I live in an area that has an honest camera 
store so that I generally don't have to deal with mail order shysters.


Tom, that was your invite, I'm done now.

William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Mark Roberts]

Tom C wrote:

>Ugh! :-)
>
>I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
>item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
>scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
>the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
>retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
>and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
>in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
>is foolish.  

Good idea, but I'm not aware of any software that does so. And, by
definition, it could only react *after* a spike existed. It would be
tricky to implement, too, because most of the time a spike in sales is
something you *want* to see. You'd need algorithms to differentiate
between "good" sales spikes and "bad" ones. (And staff to deal with
pissed off customers when the algorithm - eventually - made a
mistake.)

>Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
>are specifically flagged to allow it.

I'd guess that's exactly what happened in the case that started all
this. The company running the web site has the *price* of the items
for sale but it's unlikely that any large retailer would allow their
*cost* information out of house. So the discrepancy won't be detected
until the web host forwards the order information to the retailer.

>On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
>stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
>the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
>is everything else not the same?

The cashier in Bill's mis-priced milk scenario can see if there are
1000 other customers in line with mis-priced milk. The online retailer
can't (until it's too late). If the online store is required to sell
just one mis-priced item because the loss isn't "huge", what do they
tell the second person in line? For that matter, how does the second
person know they're not being lied to and they really *are* the first
person in line? (I think that's what Cambridge Camera Exchange would
do!)

The answer to pretty much all of the above is that a lot of best
practices for the real world simply don't scale to the virtual one.
Comparison of one to the other is fundamentally flawed.

I looked for online retailers who promised to honor the prices
advertised on their site even in the event of a mistake. I couldn't
find any. (They're probably out there if you look hard enough, but
I'll bet they're small, newbie operations that haven't been bitten
yet. Or sellers of v...@gra, pr0n, etc. who have no intention of
honoring the promise.)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Anthony Farr  wrote:
> Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
> around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
> to be offered in the first place.
>
> Then, is a customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
> leader but never the upsize a bad customer?
> 
> If the business model for loss-leaders > isn't working for a store, then they 
> need to remedy it, not demonize
> customers who accept the offers.
>
> In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
> practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.
>

Anthony,

Your post reminds me of something I've experienced in airports
recently.  Yesterday evening, I walked past a gate that was getting
ready to board (this was Delta Airlines but I've heard this from
United as well)...

'We have a very full flight today and would like to make an ontime
departure.  It's important that travelers board the plane, stow their
luggage and belongings, and be seated. We ask that you stow your
larger items like roller bags in the overhead bins, leaving the space
at your feet for smaller items.  If you bring an item on board that is
too big to fit in an overhead bin, this will cause additional
congestion in the aisle and the bag will need to be carried to the
front of the plane and then stowed with the rest of the cargo.  The
number one reason for late departures is because travelers delay
departure by not handling their carryon items properly.'

WHAT???  The CUSTOMER is responsible for late departures?  Who decided
to change their policy and charge an exhorbitant fee to check luggage,
so that now 70% of the passengers bring the larger carrier on bags
into the passenger compartment?  THE AIRLINE.  It's they that have
caused the congestion and lack of space in the overhead bins, the
confusion while travelers wander back and forth searching for a place
to put their bag, blocking the aisle no where near their assigned
seat, and consequent late departures.  THOSE NAUGHTY PESKY CUSTOMERS!

So I check my bag and then put my laptop in the overhead bin, so I
have room at my feet.  What do you think happens?  The flight
attendant, frantically searches for space in the overheads, sees my
laptop, asks whose it is, and then asks me if I would mind stowing it
under the seat in front of me.  To that I say 'No, I've already
checked my large bag underneath (often having to pay to do so).  I
shouldn't have to pay to check my bag and then ALSO give up the space
around my feet.  You want me, the person that has paid to check their
luggage, now sacrifice my comfort for the sake of customers who chose
not to pay. It's the airlines policy of charging for checked luggage
that is the problem and that's why there's not enough space'.

Anyway when I walked by the gate and heard that announcement, I
stopped and told three guys waiting to board that "Did you hear that?
It's all your fault they're going to be late".  They laughed.

Tom C.

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

I can guarantee you Bill, that between either one of us alone, and
certainly combined, B&H has already lost far more profit than they
would have by simply honoring the contract on that one transaction.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>
>
>
>>
>> I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of
>> dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll
>> stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
>> specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
>> following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
>> they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.
>
> Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
> cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.
>
> I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
> quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
> clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
> you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
> If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>
> In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
> (most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>
> For myself,  wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
> tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big B&H customer,
> I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
> this, I'm done with them as a customer.
> They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
> mind.
>
> Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
> Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
> therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
> suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
> never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
> gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.
>
> And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
> for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
> invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.
>
> William Robb
>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Ugh! :-)

I agree that the retailer should not suffer *huge* losses because an
item was mismarked, especially in the electronic online ordering
scenario where word gets around and they are flooded with orders. On
the other hand, being aware of this possibility, any large online
retailer who does not have software in place to monitor transactions
and send out an alert when there's a spike in orders of any given item
in a given time period, and automatically suspend sales of that item
is foolish.  Same goes for selling items at or below cost unless they
are specifically flagged to allow it.

On an individual transaction basis, Bill's mis-priced milk scenario
stands and the online store has exactly the same responsibilities to
the customer as a brick and mortar store. The money is the same, why
is everything else not the same?

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
> William Robb wrote:
>
>>I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
>>quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
>>clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
>>you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
>>If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>>
>>In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
>>(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>
> Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
> seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
> work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
> They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.
>
> Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
> the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
> That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
> was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
> sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
> store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
> to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
> store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
> and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
> 200. Or 800. B&H's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
> a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
> mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
> happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
> 1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
> site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
> of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
> at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
> (good luck "proving" it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
> aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
> seller claims that was the case).
>
> Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
> upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
> re-priced everything he sells.
>
> Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
> for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
> error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
> to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
> state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
> of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
> they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
> be protected, too.
>
> The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
> carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
> the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
> hand, is treated as "informational" like the price in a printed
> advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.
>
> Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
> speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
> as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
> the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
> of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.
>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Please post Bill, please.

Tom C.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:45 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I
>
>
>
>>
>> I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of
>> dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll
>> stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have
>> specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them
>> following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that
>> they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.
>
> Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and
> cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.
>
> I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a
> quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is
> clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore
> you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
> If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>
> In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and
> (most unfortunately) Henry is defending.
>
> For myself,  wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't
> tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big B&H customer,
> I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after
> this, I'm done with them as a customer.
> They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my
> mind.
>
> Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner,
> Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and
> therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I
> suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have
> never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I
> gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.
>
> And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me
> for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically
> invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.
>
> William Robb
>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

Well I can state that I will not be purchasing from B&H again where I
otherwise would have.

I have nothing personal against Henry.  I don't know him.

I agree totally with Stan and Anthony who have reiterated a point I
made earlier and then expounded with logical reasoning.

In short, this was an issue of choosing profit (or loss of profit)
over the customer and their satisfaction.

B&H would not have suffered huge losses causing irrepairable harm and
I believe the Equitable Doctrine of Unilateral Mistake is being
grossly misapplied and misused, if that's the rationale behind not
honoring the contract.

In fact I think they would have come out ahead in the long run by
eating the cost of the goods, the desired profit margin and the
shipping, in effect purchasing  customer goodwill, loyalty, and
perception. Or if they simply viewed that bargain sale as a "loss
leader" instead of a "loss".

If B&H can't see the logic in this reasoning, or if they set forth a
policy and blindly stick to it on every occasion, then they are a
stupid and foolish corporate entity, and are likely losing current and
future business that far offsets any short term savings on a
transactional basis.

Even as a single independent IT Consultant I sometimes give away hours
of service here and there.  Maybe I had trouble figuring something out
or possibly I had to ramp up learning a new tool and the job took me
longer than I anticipated. Because I realize that in the business
world perception is at least 50% of reality, I eat those hours, that
profit, in order to ensure my client has a positive view of me and my
services. What I lose amounts to a lot more than $250, but what I gain
exceeds even that.

Tom C.



On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:06 AM, paul stenquist  wrote:
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Anthony Farr wrote:
>
>> After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
>> reference, which is to "unprofitable customers".  Forgive me for
>> asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
>> will be offered for sale?  In that context, then it's the store's
>> responsibility/fault if they offer a deal that doesn't turn a profit.
>> Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
>> around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
>> to be offered in the first place.
>>
>> Now, we all know about loss leaders, don't we?  The store offers a
>> doorbuster price usually at a loss, but hopes to turn it into a profit
>> by upsizing the customer before they reach the checkout.  Then, is a
>> customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
>> leader but never the upsize a bad customer?  No answer is needed for
>> two reasons.  One is that the store offered the deal, it's as simple
>> as that.  The second is that there's no workable way to filter out or
>> discriminate against a customer because of how many items you ~think~
>> they'll put in their cart.  If the business model for loss-leaders
>> isn't working for a store, then they need to remedy it, not demonize
>> customers who accept the offers.
>>
>> In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
>> practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.
>>
>> Finally, a question for Henry Posner.  If you could replay this event
>> that has caused so much grief, would you once again stand by your
>> legal/moral position for the sake of $250, or would you let it slide,
>> let the customer have the benefit-of-the-doubt (even though you
>> believe he is wrong), and circumvent the ill-will and misunderstanding
>> that it has spawned?
>
> I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of 
> dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll 
> stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have 
> specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them 
> following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that they've 
> set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.
>
> I also doubt that this event "has caused so much grief" in the overall scheme 
> of things. Hand wringing and name calling here? Sure, but that's meaningless. 
> Perhaps another tempestuous discussion or two on photo lists? Certainly not a 
> big deal given the scope of B&H's business.
>
> I think we should feel honored that Henry felt we deserved a reply. I'm only 
> sorry that he was not treated with the respect to which any human being is 
> entitled.
>
> Paul
>
>
>>
>> What does advertising cost these days, anyway?  More than $250?
>> (Rhetorical questions).
>>
>> regards, Anthony
>>
>>    "Of what use is lens and light
>>    to those who lack in mind and sight"
>>                                               (Anon)
>>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Mark Roberts]

William Robb wrote:

>I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a 
>quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is 
>clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore 
>you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?
>If you'd care to, answer me this time.
>
>In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and 
>(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.

Bill, you're equating a physical store with a virtual store. There
seems to be a tacit assumption that online stores can or should
work just like physical stores. This is, in and of itself, untrue.
They don't. They can't. They shouldn't.

Here's how a mis-priced item is handled in a physical store: You sell
the product to the customer for the price marked and eat the loss.
That's the right thing to do and it's also the law in many places (it
was in New York State when I lived there). Then you go back onto the
sales floor and correct the price. This isn't viable in an online
store because in the time it takes to ring up the sale and walk back
to the sales area of the physical store the customer in the virtual
store has announced his bargain through Twitter, Facebook, Woot, etc.
and the mis-priced product has been ordered by 100 other people. Or
200. Or 800. B&H's servers can probably handle several hundred orders
a *minute*. Consider an expensive item that's not underpriced by a
mere 50% but with a mis-placed decimal point (it's been known to
happen) that effectively underprices it by 90%... and is ordered by
1000 or so people before the mistake is discovered. Consider a web
site that's been hacked and products re-priced: If the law treated any
of these like a physical store, they'd be obliged to sell everything
at the marked price until they noticed and fixed each erroneous price
(good luck "proving" it was hackers who did it - or, if you're an
aggrieved customer, proving that hackers *didn't* do it when the
seller claims that was the case). 

Mark Cassino's web page was hacked not long ago - they were trying to
upload trojans to site visitors but they could just as easily have
re-priced everything he sells.

Are there any online retailers who *do* guarantee that they'll sell
for the price that's advertised in their online store even if it's an
error? Find one. I haven't been able to. Look at the places that offer
to match competitors' prices (buy.com, for example): They specifically
state that they'll only match *correct* prices - they know *none*
of their competitors will actually sell at an erroneous price, and
they know pricing errors are a realistic possibility so they want to
be protected, too.

The marking of a price on an item on the shelf of a physical store
carries with it a kind of contractual obligation between the store and
the customer. The advertised price in a virtual store, on the other
hand, is treated as "informational" like the price in a printed
advertisement; subject to change or retraction in the case of errors.

Many practices that work in the physical world don't scale to the
speed, volume and security threats of the online environment. As far
as I can tell there are *no* online retailers who promise to sell for
the price advertised on the web site even if it's wrong. This is one
of the policies that simply isn't workable in the virtual world.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I





I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of 
dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll 
stick by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have 
specific policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on 
them following them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that 
they've set. Most often, that works to the consumer's advantage.


Except when they decide that they don't like the price they offered and 
cancel the sale after they have accepted payment for it.


I asked you once, I'll ask you again: If you walked into a store to buy a 
quart of milk and when you get to the counter you are told the price that is 
clearly marked on the bottle as pr quart is actually per pint, and therefore 
you will have to pay double, would you do so happily?

If you'd care to, answer me this time.

In essence, this is what B&H has done, and it is what you, Mark, Godfrey and 
(most unfortunately) Henry is defending.


For myself,  wouldn't tolerate it from a retail store, and I wouldn't 
tolerate it from an online store as well. I haven't been a big B&H customer, 
I've probably only spent perhaps 20K with them over the years, but after 
this, I'm done with them as a customer.
They crossed the line from being trustworthy to being untrustworthy in my 
mind.


Now I suppose because I took up the cause in my usual fun loving manner, 
Henry will breath a sigh of relief because I am an outspoken person and 
therefore potentially one of the problem customers he doesn't want, but I 
suspect I am not in the bottom 10% of dollars spent with them and I have 
never given them grief, other than what I feel is the well deserved grief I 
gave Henry for coming here and defending the indefensible.


And for all of you who have sent me public and private emails chastising me 
for sewering this thread, please be assured that unless I am specifically 
invited to post to it again, I am most likely done with it.


William Robb


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Doug Franklin]

On 2010-02-05 4:30, Anthony Farr wrote:

After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
reference, which is to "unprofitable customers".  Forgive me for
asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
will be offered for sale?


First, you're right.  Second, I'm not coming at it from the retail side, 
where my only experience is working in high school as a stock boy for a 
pharmacy.  I'm coming at it from the environment of companies, 
especially start ups, producing computer hardware systems, software 
systems, and services.  I've seen way too many cases of closing a "big" 
contract just to get the cash flow.  Then the costs of supporting that 
customer or contract go far out of balance with the income, or even cash 
flow, resulting from the sale.  This happens for a variety of reasons. 
Sometimes, though, it's due to an unreasonable customer. Some customers 
in that environment end up being so expensive to keep that you could 
never get them to agree to a contract that would allow the deal to be 
profitable for the seller.  However, you're right that the burden is on 
the seller.


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Anthony Farr wrote:

> After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
> reference, which is to "unprofitable customers".  Forgive me for
> asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
> will be offered for sale?  In that context, then it's the store's
> responsibility/fault if they offer a deal that doesn't turn a profit.
> Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
> around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
> to be offered in the first place.
> 
> Now, we all know about loss leaders, don't we?  The store offers a
> doorbuster price usually at a loss, but hopes to turn it into a profit
> by upsizing the customer before they reach the checkout.  Then, is a
> customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
> leader but never the upsize a bad customer?  No answer is needed for
> two reasons.  One is that the store offered the deal, it's as simple
> as that.  The second is that there's no workable way to filter out or
> discriminate against a customer because of how many items you ~think~
> they'll put in their cart.  If the business model for loss-leaders
> isn't working for a store, then they need to remedy it, not demonize
> customers who accept the offers.
> 
> In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
> practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.
> 
> Finally, a question for Henry Posner.  If you could replay this event
> that has caused so much grief, would you once again stand by your
> legal/moral position for the sake of $250, or would you let it slide,
> let the customer have the benefit-of-the-doubt (even though you
> believe he is wrong), and circumvent the ill-will and misunderstanding
> that it has spawned?

I'm not Henry and certainly can't speak for B&H. But after many years of 
dealing with them, I would guess the answer would be a firm "no." They'll stick 
by their decision. And that's what I like about them. They have specific 
policies that are set forth in writing, and you can depend on them following 
them. I've never known them to deviate from the course that they've set. Most 
often, that works to the consumer's advantage.

I also doubt that this event "has caused so much grief" in the overall scheme 
of things. Hand wringing and name calling here? Sure, but that's meaningless. 
Perhaps another tempestuous discussion or two on photo lists? Certainly not a 
big deal given the scope of B&H's business.

I think we should feel honored that Henry felt we deserved a reply. I'm only 
sorry that he was not treated with the respect to which any human being is 
entitled.

Paul


> 
> What does advertising cost these days, anyway?  More than $250?
> (Rhetorical questions).
> 
> regards, Anthony
> 
>"Of what use is lens and light
>to those who lack in mind and sight"
>   (Anon)
> 
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Anthony Farr]

After ploughing through this thread I'm drawn to one recurring
reference, which is to "unprofitable customers".  Forgive me for
asking, but doesn't the store and not the customer decide what deals
will be offered for sale?  In that context, then it's the store's
responsibility/fault if they offer a deal that doesn't turn a profit.
Also in that context, it's totally out of line for the store to turn
around and blame the customer for those losses, the deals didn't have
to be offered in the first place.

Now, we all know about loss leaders, don't we?  The store offers a
doorbuster price usually at a loss, but hopes to turn it into a profit
by upsizing the customer before they reach the checkout.  Then, is a
customer who hops from one store to another and buys only the loss
leader but never the upsize a bad customer?  No answer is needed for
two reasons.  One is that the store offered the deal, it's as simple
as that.  The second is that there's no workable way to filter out or
discriminate against a customer because of how many items you ~think~
they'll put in their cart.  If the business model for loss-leaders
isn't working for a store, then they need to remedy it, not demonize
customers who accept the offers.

In essence - an unprofitable transaction is the result of the business
practice that led up to it, not the customer who entered into it.

Finally, a question for Henry Posner.  If you could replay this event
that has caused so much grief, would you once again stand by your
legal/moral position for the sake of $250, or would you let it slide,
let the customer have the benefit-of-the-doubt (even though you
believe he is wrong), and circumvent the ill-will and misunderstanding
that it has spawned?

What does advertising cost these days, anyway?  More than $250?
(Rhetorical questions).

regards, Anthony

   "Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight"
   (Anon)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Doug Franklin]

On 2010-02-04 23:43, Stan Halpin wrote:


I would agree with the premise that some customers are a pain in
the neck and in many other mentionable and unmentionable parts
of the anatomy.


I've long been of the opinion that a lot of businesses, especially 
startups and small businesses, never realize that some "customers" are 
just too expensive to keep.  The business loses far more on the back end 
of the transactions than they ever make on the front end.  That said, my 
experience has been that it's generally /far/ less then 10% of the 
customer base, and the ones that need to go are typically easily 
identifiable.  However, small businesses and startups often feel that 
they can't afford to lose that cash flow, and sometimes they're right.



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Stan Halpin]

I am merely a researcher, the closest I have come to being in business is when 
I walk into one to buy something. With that footnote out of the way...

I would agree with the premise that some customers are a pain in the neck and 
in many other mentionable and unmentionable parts of the anatomy. I would agree 
that a retail company might well be better off if they did not have those 
customers. Assuming, as you say, that they are both difficult and unprofitable. 
However, this does not mean that the company is better off getting rid of such 
customers.

The problem is that you are treating the obnoxious rude unprofitable difficult 
customer as though he/she (most likely he) was an isolate. And as though the 
world had two static states: a) damn troublemaker customer still here;  and b) 
whew! the idiot is gone! However, the world is a bit more dynamic than that, 
they probably won't go quietly, rather they will continue with renewed vigor to 
spew invectives about your service and products. So as you rid yourself of a 
problem, but lose many potential good customers in the process. And disillusion 
others of your current customers who had some mental model of you as a peer, as 
a company with a shared interest in good photography (or audio or whatever) 
products at a good price, as a company where you sympathize with  the customer 
because you share their love of the passion (photography/easy 
listening/whatever) which leads them to indulge in with your products. Oops! 
Now it seems that you are after all a company out to make a profit at whatever 
moral costs. In short, the process of "dropping" the troublemakers may be more 
trouble than it is worth.

One of the implicit assumptions of this discussion is the the only raison d' 
outre for a business is to make as large a profit as possible, no matter what. 
But since we accord corporations the rights of living breathing citizens (e.g., 
first amendment rights to buy and sell politicians), I would like to think that 
in return we might expect good citizenly behavior from corporations. In that 
idealistic world, I can see a bar or restaurant or audio/video/photo store 
deciding that "difficult" customers should be banned to save wear and tear on 
the nerves of the employees and of other customers. However, the wealthy, 
steady purchaser would be just as likely to be bounced for bad behavior, and 
the choice would not relate to the profitable/unprofitable issue at all.

And by the way, when will you start stocking the Pentax 645-D and how will it 
be priced? [There! Back on topic!]

stan


> On Feb 4, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Henry Posner wrote:
> 
> ... the real issue ... is -- are there customers too expensive or too 
> troublesome for a company to keep and does a company benefit from purposely 
> dropping unprofitable and difficult customers?
> 
> -- -
> 
> regards,
> Henry Posner
> Director of Corporate Communications
> B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
> 


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Henry Posner"

Subject: RE: Message from Henry Posner, Part I





Fine. Let's say I didn't read it in the HBR. Let's say it was on the back 
of a Rice Chex box. The concept remains as provocative. Criticizing the 
source (HBR) and ignoring the concept is a typical Straw Man argument, I 
believe, and obscures the real issue which is -- are there customers too 
expensive or too troublesome for a company to keep and does a company 
benefit from purposely dropping unprofitable and difficult customers?


I suspect a lot of your wisdom comes from the back of a Rice Chex box.
However, in this case you have, apparently, decided to drop a customer for 
being too much trouble after lying to him about your pricing on your 
website.
Deflecting the issue to try to justify your actions is certainly not morally 
superior to someone dismissing a concept because the source of that concept 
has proven itself to be wrong with regards to the concept.


William Robb 



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Thomas Cakalic]

Certainly that could be the case.  I think the proposed 10% was
extremely high.  Someone suggested 1/10 of 1%.

But how would that be accomplished with an online store? Flag their
name, credit card, address, e-mail... Disable their online account?
All of which can be gotten around?

Do you maintain a 'DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH... LIST'?  Is J.C.
O'Conell's name on it. ;-)

Tom C.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Henry Posner  wrote:
>> I was thinking that quoting from the Harvard Business School
>> as a means of defending one's shaky business practices might
>> not be wise in light of the present economic climate and what
>> brought us to it, and I was going to refrain, but then, what
>> the Hell. We are being all touchy feely, and how often do I
>> get to agree with Peter.
>
> Fine. Let's say I didn't read it in the HBR. Let's say it was on the back of 
> a Rice Chex box. The concept remains as provocative. Criticizing the source 
> (HBR) and ignoring the concept is a typical Straw Man argument, I believe, 
> and obscures the real issue which is -- are there customers too expensive or 
> too troublesome for a company to keep and does a company benefit from 
> purposely dropping unprofitable and difficult customers?
>
>  -- -
>
>  regards,
>  Henry Posner
>  Director of Corporate Communications
>  B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
>  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
>
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RE: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Henry Posner]

> I was thinking that quoting from the Harvard Business School
> as a means of defending one's shaky business practices might
> not be wise in light of the present economic climate and what
> brought us to it, and I was going to refrain, but then, what
> the Hell. We are being all touchy feely, and how often do I
> get to agree with Peter.

Fine. Let's say I didn't read it in the HBR. Let's say it was on the back of a 
Rice Chex box. The concept remains as provocative. Criticizing the source (HBR) 
and ignoring the concept is a typical Straw Man argument, I believe, and 
obscures the real issue which is -- are there customers too expensive or too 
troublesome for a company to keep and does a company benefit from purposely 
dropping unprofitable and difficult customers?

 -- -

 regards,
 Henry Posner
 Director of Corporate Communications
 B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Henry Posner]

> That's true of pretty much every skilled pursuit.  There's
> even a "law" about it, the name of which I can't recall.  Maybe
> Dunning-Kruger Effect.  The net-net is that people who really
> know a subject are aware of just how little they know, while
> the ignorant think they know everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

 -- -

 regards,
 Henry Posner
 Director of Corporate Communications
 B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[P N Stenquist]

On Feb 4, 2010, at 9:26 AM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "mike wilson"
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I







Hey Henry, do some math if you are able to. If you drop 10% of your
customers every year, how many years does it take before you can't  
get new

ones because you've dropped them all?





How does a retailer drop a customer?  Pointblank refuse their  
order?  Do you come and take the goods back if they >manage to  
sneak in under the radar?


I'll leave Henry to explain that as well.

The entire concept comes across as drooling idiot stupid, but  
perhaps Henry could explain why it isn't.

Unless Elvis has left the building, that is.



What Henry said was that it's probably a plus if you lose your bottom  
10%. Overall, not every year. And he's probably correct.

Paul



William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[John Sessoms]

Sounds pretty much like being a teenager to me.

And growing older ... since I refuse to actually grow UP.

From: Tom C

I didn't know about the "law", but it seems that the essence of wisdom
may be the realization that one is ignorant. In that case, I'm wiser
than most.

Tom C.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Doug Franklin
 wrote:

> On 2010-02-03 22:54, Tom C wrote:
>

>> Photography sucks. The more experience you have, the worse you become.

>
> That's true of pretty much every skilled pursuit. ?There's even a "law"
> about it, the name of which I can't recall. ?Maybe Dunning-Kruger Effect.
> ?The net-net is that people who really know a subject are aware of just how
> little they know, while the ignorant think they know everything.
>



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "mike wilson"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I







Hey Henry, do some math if you are able to. If you drop 10% of your
customers every year, how many years does it take before you can't get 
new

ones because you've dropped them all?





How does a retailer drop a customer?  Pointblank refuse their order?  Do 
you come and take the goods back if they >manage to sneak in under the 
radar?


I'll leave Henry to explain that as well.

The entire concept comes across as drooling idiot stupid, but perhaps Henry 
could explain why it isn't.

Unless Elvis has left the building, that is.

William Robb 



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[mike wilson]

 William Robb  wrote: 
> Hey Henry, do some math if you are able to. If you drop 10% of your 
> customers every year, how many years does it take before you can't get new 
> ones because you've dropped them all?
> 
> William Robb 

How does a retailer drop a customer?  Pointblank refuse their order?  Do you 
come and take the goods back if they manage to sneak in under the radar?

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "P. J. Alling"

Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I


I could make a crack about the Harvard School of Business being nearly as 
destructive to good business as the Harvard School of Government has been 
to good governance, but I won't.


I was thinking that quoting from the Harvard Business School as a means of 
defending one's shaky business practices might not be wise in light of the 
present economic climate and what brought us to it, and I was going to 
refrain, but then, what the Hell. We are being all touchy feely, and how 
often do I get to agree with Peter.


I found that quote of Henry's to be right up there with the "We'll just 
presume we have a can opener" theory of economists stranded on a desert 
island.
Hey Henry, do some math if you are able to. If you drop 10% of your 
customers every year, how many years does it take before you can't get new 
ones because you've dropped them all?


William Robb 



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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Christian]

If Bill is coming out here, let me know when and I'll crash the party...

Christian

Tom C wrote:

I went to this fantastic seafood place in Annapolis today (Yellow
Fin).  Nice and good ambience, but great menu, wine list and of course
seafood (steaks as well).

This is just a stupid off the wall, inebriated idea, but does Delta
fly in to Regina? or somewhere near?  Because shortly I could possibly
trade in miles for a free flight and you could come spend a weekend in
Maryland/DC.

Just a thought...

Your Tom.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:17 PM, William Robb  wrote:

- Original Message - From: "Tom C"
Subject: Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I



LOL.

You guys should all know by now we're different.

I'm an analytical IT geek, analyze things to death and blather on in
my analysis.

Bill speaks his mind and does so strongly because they took his chainsaws
away.

Paul's a grandfather and has new found joy in his life, liking almost
every photograph exhibited.

Mark's an intellectual and see's things from both sides, hoping he'll
figure where to land.

Fun, eh? :-)

It's the Tourette's.
You owe me a glass of Merlot and a keyboard.

William Robb

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/3/2010 6:52 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

Tom C wrote:

   

irregardless
 

Ugh!


   

You say Potato I say err Potato...

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Bob Sullivan]

I love statistical analyses by MBA's.  They rarely fail to obscure the
truth.Bob S.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Stan Halpin
 wrote:
> Oh go ahead and say it!
>
> I co-authored a book on developing leaders (published last year). While 
> writing it, I came across an interesting diatribe by someone whose name I 
> don't remember now: "Managers, not MBA's" . In which he rails against the 
> Harvards of the world and the damage they have done through their MBA 
> programs. I couldn't read it for too long at a time, my neck kept getting 
> tired from nodding so much.
>
> stan
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:17 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>
>> I could make a crack about the Harvard School of Business being nearly as 
>> destructive to good business as the Harvard School of Government has been to 
>> good governance, but I won't.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Stan Halpin]

Oh go ahead and say it!

I co-authored a book on developing leaders (published last year). While writing 
it, I came across an interesting diatribe by someone whose name I don't 
remember now: "Managers, not MBA's" . In which he rails against the Harvards of 
the world and the damage they have done through their MBA programs. I couldn't 
read it for too long at a time, my neck kept getting tired from nodding so much.

stan

On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:17 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:

> I could make a crack about the Harvard School of Business being nearly as 
> destructive to good business as the Harvard School of Government has been to 
> good governance, but I won't.
> 
> 


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

I didn't know about the "law", but it seems that the essence of wisdom
may be the realization that one is ignorant. In that case, I'm wiser
than most.

Tom C.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Doug Franklin
 wrote:
> On 2010-02-03 22:54, Tom C wrote:
>
>> Photography sucks. The more experience you have, the worse you become.
>
> That's true of pretty much every skilled pursuit.  There's even a "law"
> about it, the name of which I can't recall.  Maybe Dunning-Kruger Effect.
>  The net-net is that people who really know a subject are aware of just how
> little they know, while the ignorant think they know everything.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> DougF (KG4LMZ)
>
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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[P. J. Alling]

I could make a crack about the Harvard School of Business being nearly 
as destructive to good business as the Harvard School of Government has 
been to good governance, but I won't.


On 2/3/2010 1:45 PM, Henry Posner wrote:

A cardinal rule in all businesses is that the customer comes first.
Granted there could be an exceptional customer that deserves
to get the boot or who makes unreasonable demands.  In this
case, resolving the problem to the customer's satisfaction,
in the big scheme of things, was a rather small concession
for B&H to make considering the volume of business they do,
the monetary amount, and the fact that the mistake was theirs.
 

I read a very illuminating article in the Harvard Business Review a few years 
ago which made a strong case for companies dropping the least profitable 10% of 
their customer base annually and replacing it with a combination of new 
customers and increased business (or more profitable business) from existing 
customers. I don't recall every detail but the article defended the idea that 
unprofitable customers were a cancer on the business, draining resources and 
costing, not earning, money and as a side benefit, sending these troublesome, 
difficult, expensive customers to your competition put more burden on them, 
benefiting you again.

I cannot say I necessarily agree with every detail of this argument, but it 
does have points worth considering.

In the particular instance under discussion, various compromise offers were 
tendered. None were accepted. Lawyers I know say a compromise is when both 
parties are equally dissatisfied. This customer declined all compromise 
efforts. Those here arguing this so vehemently should consider there's more to 
the tale than they know.

  -- -

  regards,
  Henry Posner
  Director of Corporate Communications
  B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

   



--
{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1033{\fonttbl{\f0\fnil\fcharset0 Courier 
New;}}
\viewkind4\uc1\pard\f0\fs20 I've just upgraded to Thunderbird 3.0 and the 
interface subtly weird.\par
}


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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Doug Franklin]

On 2010-02-03 22:54, Tom C wrote:


Photography sucks. The more experience you have, the worse you become.


That's true of pretty much every skilled pursuit.  There's even a "law" 
about it, the name of which I can't recall.  Maybe Dunning-Kruger 
Effect.  The net-net is that people who really know a subject are aware 
of just how little they know, while the ignorant think they know everything.


--
Thanks,
DougF (KG4LMZ)

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Re: Message from Henry Posner, Part I

[Tom C]

As has been pointed out, it's easier for us all to hide behind the
cyberspace event horizon, and say things we otherwise would not.  Even
in this discussion, it's been restrained, I think.

Are we learning or just getting tired? ;-)

I'll think about GFM...

Tom

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
> Tom C wrote:
>
>>See what happens when you don't check your To: address?  Let that be a
>>warning. :-)
>
> If anyone has frequent flier miles to burn they should put Chicago May
> 7th and Grandfather Mountain June 4-6 into their calendar and see
> what's possible.
>
> Seriously, this flame-war thread is a particularly *good* place to
> point out what a great group of people populate this list, despite the
> strong opinions, occasional flaring tempers and foul language. Even
> Bill Robb is a great guy in person. ;-)
>
>
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