Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/18/06, Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip. While incidents were recorded with almost all makes, they were most common with Audi, due apparently to the close placement of accelerator and brake pedals and perhaps to a large number of numb owners. I agree with that, Paul. Pedal placement, stupid drivers who don't want to admit to their insurance companies that they made a mistake, and a third factor: A litigious society, contingency fees, and lawyers who will take anything to trial if they see dollar signs at the end of the road. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Kenneth Waller wrote: There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, Ok, so where did the extra air spark come from to ignite with the extra fuel? The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occurred in close traffic Ok, were they controllable by application of the brake? The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended I guess they should have told that to the several governments that investigated the issue. Kenneth Waller Ken, I don't want to get into a big debate about this. I know what happened to me but it appears you are talking about something different - much more violent than what I experienced. The explanation I received made perfect sense to me. If it doesn't for you, there is not much I can do about it. WRT the phenomenon you are talking about, there was an incident in this town with a runaway bus that was attributed to the problem, at least by the driver. There have been numerous reports of the same problem with other examples of the same bus. Here's one: http://www.crawleytoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=496ArticleID=730454 mike - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:59 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Kenneth Waller wrote: We're not talking about the same phenomenon. You use the term surge - generally interpreted as short duration slight to moderate acceleration. The typical sudden accel event that I've been involved with is a longer duration event that appears to duplicate a wide open throttle event most times is purported to not be controllable with the brake application. With the fuel injection systems that I'm familiar with the throttle body acts as an air valve, which is controlled by your right foot. Fuel is controlled by the engine processor is added to the combustion process based on the position of the throttle. Air, fuel spark must be combined at specific ratios for correct combustion to be obtained. Too much fuel the engine runs rich doesn't produce optimum power. Too little fuel the engine runs lean doesn't produce optimum power. Additionally, what you're talking about is taking place outside the combustion chamber. I don't see how that has anything to do with the production of engine power. Kenneth Waller The fuel has to go through the engine to get to the cat, so will affect power output. The stoichimetric ratio is an ideal, probably never achieved in practice throughout the combustion chamber, so extra fuel could produce more power. There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, in situations where I could believe the cat was not at proper temperature. The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended. They had, at that point in the early 1990s, had numerous calls about the problem. The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occured in close traffic. m - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most major auto manufacturers have been sued with sudden accel as the allegation. I've experienced this with a couple of vehicles. As far as I could ascertain, it was a function of the fuel delivery system to deliver excess fuel if the catalytic converter temperature fell below a threshhold. The unburnt fuel reacted in the cat and raised the temperature - a byproduct was a small surge in acceleration, rather like the one you feel when the injectors kick back in on the overrun to generate idle speed but much more prolonged and at any throttle opening. mike - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
We already have too many OT threads, and I hesitate to extend this, but I would like to offer a bit of information. Surges -- what feels like the sudden application of power while driving -- are usually the result of the opposite condition. That is, a temporary loss of power due to the engine going very lean or losing spark. If the driver is maintaining a steady speed when the engine loses power, he instinctively pushes a bit more on the accelerator. Because the loss of power is smooth and quite, it is notice only in the way a driver might respond to a slight incline: a bit more throttle. When the lean condition disappears or the spark returns, the throttle is now in a different position, and the reapplication of power feels like a rather aggressive surge. It's common and real. The lean condition can be caused by air in the fuel pump, dirty injectors, water in the fuel and myriad other conditions. Spark failures can be the result of any number of electrical faults. On the other hand, the sudden acceleration problems that were attributed to Audi some years ago were pure fiction. As Ken noted, the throttle of a car that is sitting at idle cannot open on its own. Extensive government sponsored research showed that all of these incidents were the result of operator error: stepping on the accelerator rather than the brake. While incidents were recorded with almost all makes, they were most common with Audi, due apparently to the close placement of accelerator and brake pedals and perhaps to a large number of numb owners. Paul On Feb 18, 2006, at 11:43 AM, mike wilson wrote: Kenneth Waller wrote: There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, Ok, so where did the extra air spark come from to ignite with the extra fuel? The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occurred in close traffic Ok, were they controllable by application of the brake? The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended I guess they should have told that to the several governments that investigated the issue. Kenneth Waller Ken, I don't want to get into a big debate about this. I know what happened to me but it appears you are talking about something different - much more violent than what I experienced. The explanation I received made perfect sense to me. If it doesn't for you, there is not much I can do about it. WRT the phenomenon you are talking about, there was an incident in this town with a runaway bus that was attributed to the problem, at least by the driver. There have been numerous reports of the same problem with other examples of the same bus. Here's one: http://www.crawleytoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx? SectionID=496ArticleID=730454 mike - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:59 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Kenneth Waller wrote: We're not talking about the same phenomenon. You use the term surge - generally interpreted as short duration slight to moderate acceleration. The typical sudden accel event that I've been involved with is a longer duration event that appears to duplicate a wide open throttle event most times is purported to not be controllable with the brake application. With the fuel injection systems that I'm familiar with the throttle body acts as an air valve, which is controlled by your right foot. Fuel is controlled by the engine processor is added to the combustion process based on the position of the throttle. Air, fuel spark must be combined at specific ratios for correct combustion to be obtained. Too much fuel the engine runs rich doesn't produce optimum power. Too little fuel the engine runs lean doesn't produce optimum power. Additionally, what you're talking about is taking place outside the combustion chamber. I don't see how that has anything to do with the production of engine power. Kenneth Waller The fuel has to go through the engine to get to the cat, so will affect power output. The stoichimetric ratio is an ideal, probably never achieved in practice throughout the combustion chamber, so extra fuel could produce more power. There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, in situations where I could believe the cat was not at proper temperature. The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended. They had, at that point in the early 1990s, had numerous calls about the problem. The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occured in close traffic. m - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most major auto manufacturers
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Paul Stenquist wrote: We already have too many OT threads, and I hesitate to extend this, but I would like to offer a bit of information. Surges -- what feels like the sudden application of power while driving -- are usually the result of the opposite condition. That is, a temporary loss of power due to the engine going very lean or losing spark. If the driver is maintaining a steady speed when the engine loses power, he instinctively pushes a bit more on the accelerator. Because the loss of power is smooth and quite, it is notice only in the way a driver might respond to a slight incline: a bit more throttle. When the lean condition disappears or the spark returns, the throttle is now in a different position, and the reapplication of power feels like a rather aggressive surge. It's common and real. The lean condition can be caused by air in the fuel pump, dirty injectors, water in the fuel and myriad other conditions. Spark failures can be the result of any number of electrical faults. On the other hand, the sudden acceleration problems that were attributed to Audi some years ago were pure fiction. As Ken noted, the throttle of a car that is sitting at idle cannot open on its own. Extensive government sponsored research showed that all of these incidents were the result of operator error: stepping on the accelerator rather than the brake. While incidents were recorded with almost all makes, they were most common with Audi, due apparently to the close placement of accelerator and brake pedals and perhaps to a large number of numb owners. Paul But, in fact, a few of the occurences that happened to me were when I was stationary, with the handbrake on, in neutral, no feet on the pedals. The engine revs rose without input from me. It was those incidents that caused me to realise that the condition was not operator error, as I had assumed up to then. It was the engine management system deciding that the cat needed to be warmed up and doing so. Not the same phenomenon as Kenneth was talking about (my mistake there) but definitely the vehicle deciding to do what it thought was good for it without any input from me. It appears that modern, multiple lambda sensor machines are less prone to the problem but it may still occur as a fault rather than a design parameter. m On Feb 18, 2006, at 11:43 AM, mike wilson wrote: Kenneth Waller wrote: There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, Ok, so where did the extra air spark come from to ignite with the extra fuel? The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occurred in close traffic Ok, were they controllable by application of the brake? The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended I guess they should have told that to the several governments that investigated the issue. Kenneth Waller Ken, I don't want to get into a big debate about this. I know what happened to me but it appears you are talking about something different - much more violent than what I experienced. The explanation I received made perfect sense to me. If it doesn't for you, there is not much I can do about it. WRT the phenomenon you are talking about, there was an incident in this town with a runaway bus that was attributed to the problem, at least by the driver. There have been numerous reports of the same problem with other examples of the same bus. Here's one: http://www.crawleytoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx? SectionID=496ArticleID=730454 mike - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:59 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Kenneth Waller wrote: We're not talking about the same phenomenon. You use the term surge - generally interpreted as short duration slight to moderate acceleration. The typical sudden accel event that I've been involved with is a longer duration event that appears to duplicate a wide open throttle event most times is purported to not be controllable with the brake application. With the fuel injection systems that I'm familiar with the throttle body acts as an air valve, which is controlled by your right foot. Fuel is controlled by the engine processor is added to the combustion process based on the position of the throttle. Air, fuel spark must be combined at specific ratios for correct combustion to be obtained. Too much fuel the engine runs rich doesn't produce optimum power. Too little fuel the engine runs lean doesn't produce optimum power. Additionally, what you're talking about is taking place outside the combustion chamber. I don't see how that has anything to do with the production of engine power. Kenneth Waller The fuel has to go through the engine to get to the cat, so will affect power output
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most major auto manufacturers have been sued with sudden accel as the allegation. I've experienced this with a couple of vehicles. As far as I could ascertain, it was a function of the fuel delivery system to deliver excess fuel if the catalytic converter temperature fell below a threshhold. The unburnt fuel reacted in the cat and raised the temperature - a byproduct was a small surge in acceleration, rather like the one you feel when the injectors kick back in on the overrun to generate idle speed but much more prolonged and at any throttle opening. mike - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
How often does the beer win? frank theriault wrote, in part: Do we get to have beer? I do my best arguing with beer.
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
We're not talking about the same phenomenon. You use the term surge - generally interpreted as short duration slight to moderate acceleration. The typical sudden accel event that I've been involved with is a longer duration event that appears to duplicate a wide open throttle event most times is purported to not be controllable with the brake application. With the fuel injection systems that I'm familiar with the throttle body acts as an air valve, which is controlled by your right foot. Fuel is controlled by the engine processor is added to the combustion process based on the position of the throttle. Air, fuel spark must be combined at specific ratios for correct combustion to be obtained. Too much fuel the engine runs rich doesn't produce optimum power. Too little fuel the engine runs lean doesn't produce optimum power. Additionally, what you're talking about is taking place outside the combustion chamber. I don't see how that has anything to do with the production of engine power. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most major auto manufacturers have been sued with sudden accel as the allegation. I've experienced this with a couple of vehicles. As far as I could ascertain, it was a function of the fuel delivery system to deliver excess fuel if the catalytic converter temperature fell below a threshhold. The unburnt fuel reacted in the cat and raised the temperature - a byproduct was a small surge in acceleration, rather like the one you feel when the injectors kick back in on the overrun to generate idle speed but much more prolonged and at any throttle opening. mike - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/17/06, Lon Williamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How often does the beer win? pretty much every time! LOL cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: frank theriault Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE On 2/17/06, Lon Williamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How often does the beer win? pretty much every time! You are drinking the wrong kind of beer. Try Montreal Canadiens beer. It never wins... WW
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: frank theriault Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE On 2/17/06, Lon Williamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How often does the beer win? pretty much every time! You are drinking the wrong kind of beer. Try Montreal Canadiens beer. It never wins... WW No that's Toronto Maple Laugh Beer. The Habs have actually won the cup in my lifetime. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Kenneth Waller wrote: We're not talking about the same phenomenon. You use the term surge - generally interpreted as short duration slight to moderate acceleration. The typical sudden accel event that I've been involved with is a longer duration event that appears to duplicate a wide open throttle event most times is purported to not be controllable with the brake application. With the fuel injection systems that I'm familiar with the throttle body acts as an air valve, which is controlled by your right foot. Fuel is controlled by the engine processor is added to the combustion process based on the position of the throttle. Air, fuel spark must be combined at specific ratios for correct combustion to be obtained. Too much fuel the engine runs rich doesn't produce optimum power. Too little fuel the engine runs lean doesn't produce optimum power. Additionally, what you're talking about is taking place outside the combustion chamber. I don't see how that has anything to do with the production of engine power. Kenneth Waller The fuel has to go through the engine to get to the cat, so will affect power output. The stoichimetric ratio is an ideal, probably never achieved in practice throughout the combustion chamber, so extra fuel could produce more power. There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, in situations where I could believe the cat was not at proper temperature. The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended. They had, at that point in the early 1990s, had numerous calls about the problem. The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occured in close traffic. m - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most major auto manufacturers have been sued with sudden accel as the allegation. I've experienced this with a couple of vehicles. As far as I could ascertain, it was a function of the fuel delivery system to deliver excess fuel if the catalytic converter temperature fell below a threshhold. The unburnt fuel reacted in the cat and raised the temperature - a byproduct was a small surge in acceleration, rather like the one you feel when the injectors kick back in on the overrun to generate idle speed but much more prolonged and at any throttle opening. mike - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, Ok, so where did the extra air spark come from to ignite with the extra fuel? The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occurred in close traffic Ok, were they controllable by application of the brake? The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended I guess they should have told that to the several governments that investigated the issue. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:59 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Kenneth Waller wrote: We're not talking about the same phenomenon. You use the term surge - generally interpreted as short duration slight to moderate acceleration. The typical sudden accel event that I've been involved with is a longer duration event that appears to duplicate a wide open throttle event most times is purported to not be controllable with the brake application. With the fuel injection systems that I'm familiar with the throttle body acts as an air valve, which is controlled by your right foot. Fuel is controlled by the engine processor is added to the combustion process based on the position of the throttle. Air, fuel spark must be combined at specific ratios for correct combustion to be obtained. Too much fuel the engine runs rich doesn't produce optimum power. Too little fuel the engine runs lean doesn't produce optimum power. Additionally, what you're talking about is taking place outside the combustion chamber. I don't see how that has anything to do with the production of engine power. Kenneth Waller The fuel has to go through the engine to get to the cat, so will affect power output. The stoichimetric ratio is an ideal, probably never achieved in practice throughout the combustion chamber, so extra fuel could produce more power. There were definite power surges without any throttle application by me, in situations where I could believe the cat was not at proper temperature. The cause was given to me by the Automobile Association patrolmen who attended. They had, at that point in the early 1990s, had numerous calls about the problem. The surges were not severe but they did produce secondary adrenaline surges when they occured in close traffic. m - Original Message - From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most major auto manufacturers have been sued with sudden accel as the allegation. I've experienced this with a couple of vehicles. As far as I could ascertain, it was a function of the fuel delivery system to deliver excess fuel if the catalytic converter temperature fell below a threshhold. The unburnt fuel reacted in the cat and raised the temperature - a byproduct was a small surge in acceleration, rather like the one you feel when the injectors kick back in on the overrun to generate idle speed but much more prolonged and at any throttle opening. mike - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/16/06, Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? Sometimes they are. Look at the red paint spraying anti-fur people. Or the whole Michael Moore thing (Farenheight 911). That's an interesting answer. I don't think of anti-fur people as being in any connected to the left wing. I suspect that you label them leftists because some of them are extremists, and perhaps in your mind extremism equals leftist. It's like the Green Party, whom everyone presumes to be leftist, but here in Canada (at least) hold some views, especially WRT immigration and economics, that are normally identified with the right wing. As for Michael Moore, I think his politics are pretty reasonable, and although I'll admit that his filmaking style is in your face and abrasive, I don't see him as any more zealous than some guy like Rush Limbaugh or Pat Robertson. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
William Robb wrote: He (Nader) later tried to do so with GM pickups, but had to give up when his people got caught faking the exploding gas tanks. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Nader behind this particular episode. I thought that was 60 Minutes or some such as that. I think 60 mins ruined Audi in the US for a while with the automatic accelerator episode. Turns out, more Fords had the problem which, when investigated turned out to be driver error. People were pressing the accelerator pedal down and swearing they were using pressing the brake pedal. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank theriault wrote: On 2/16/06, Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? Sometimes they are. Look at the red paint spraying anti-fur people. Or the whole Michael Moore thing (Farenheight 911). That's an interesting answer. I don't think of anti-fur people as being in any connected to the left wing. I suspect that you label them leftists because some of them are extremists, and perhaps in your mind extremism equals leftist. Thats true, its possible that they might be right wing extremists. Or just plain extremists about this particular issue. But I do suspect that if you profile most of them, they are way left of center. It's like the Green Party, whom everyone presumes to be leftist, but here in Canada (at least) hold some views, especially WRT immigration and economics, that are normally identified with the right wing. Kind of like the Libertarians here, and they are much closer to the political center here. Most Americans would probably land close to that party if they were surveyed. The old Republican party here used to be closer to that, fiscally conservative, socially liberal. As for Michael Moore, I think his politics are pretty reasonable, and although I'll admit that his filmaking style is in your face and abrasive, I don't see him as any more zealous than some guy like Rush Limbaugh or Pat Robertson. Not any more then them, just about the same, which was my point. cheers, rg cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- Someone handed me a picture and said, This is a picture of me when I was younger. Every picture of you is when you were younger. ...Here's a picture of me when I'm older. Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 12:06 AM, Gonz wrote: I actually believe that isolationism in the form of boycotts has the opposite effect intended. I.e. buying Chinese goods actually helps them move toward more freedom because of the injection of capitalistic ideas into their cultural fabric. This helps break down some of the extreme forms of repression we have seen in the past. The chinese government of today, while still totalitarian, is a long way from the days of old under the control of Mao and his cronies. They were quite isolated back then, much like North Korea is today. So let's all go out and buy North Korean goods? You know, it doesnt make sense, but yes. If they exported any, that is. Creating a middle class through economic enlightenment is a first step. China is already doing this and if we were to isolate them because of their government's harsh internal political policies, then they would revert back to the old ways. North Korea controls its people through a combination of isolationism and repression. The North Korean people, sadly, dont know any better because of the former, so they just take the latter with a grain of salt and (mostly) accept their fate. Bob -- Someone handed me a picture and said, This is a picture of me when I was younger. Every picture of you is when you were younger. ...Here's a picture of me when I'm older. Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:36:43 -, Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: frank theriault wrote: On 2/16/06, Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? Sometimes they are. Look at the red paint spraying anti-fur people. Or the whole Michael Moore thing (Farenheight 911). That's an interesting answer. I don't think of anti-fur people as being in any connected to the left wing. I suspect that you label them leftists because some of them are extremists, and perhaps in your mind extremism equals leftist. Thats true, its possible that they might be right wing extremists. Or just plain extremists about this particular issue. But I do suspect that if you profile most of them, they are way left of center. And where exactly is CENTER? John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: John Forbes Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE And where exactly is CENTER? That would be sitting with a fence picket up your arse. William Robb
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] And where exactly is CENTER? That would be sitting with a fence picket up your arse. William Robb Damn! After 71 years, you define my problem with a single sentence :-) Lewis _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:23:18 -, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: John Forbes Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE And where exactly is CENTER? That would be sitting with a fence picket up your arse. William Robb Bill, Don't equivocate. Call a spade a spade. :-) John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
I think 60 mins ruined Audi in the US for a while with the automatic accelerator episode. It is normally referred to as unintended or sudden acceleration. 60 minutes, used an ex IBM engineer, William Rosenbluth, to modify Audi transmissions to demonstrate the condition without advising that the transmission were modified. An excellent read regarding several bogus litigation issues is contained in a book Galileo's Revenge by Peter Huber. This phenomenon was studied by the American, Canadian Japanese governments with the overwhelming conclusion that the phenomenon was due to pedal (accelerator) misapplication. Vehicles were being shifted into drive or reverse without having their foot on the brake pedal. This eventually led to the brake shift interlock system installed on auto transmission vehicles in the early 90's Most major auto manufacturers have been sued with sudden accel as the allegation. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE William Robb wrote: He (Nader) later tried to do so with GM pickups, but had to give up when his people got caught faking the exploding gas tanks. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Nader behind this particular episode. I thought that was 60 Minutes or some such as that. I think 60 mins ruined Audi in the US for a while with the automatic accelerator episode. Turns out, more Fords had the problem which, when investigated turned out to be driver error. People were pressing the accelerator pedal down and swearing they were using pressing the brake pedal. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Secular Humanism? On Feb 15, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Juan Buhler wrote: Neoconservatism? On 2/14/06, Mishka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and which is that? best, mishka On 2/14/06, E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Demonstrably untrue. I'm not saying it wasn't true several centuries ago, but there's currently one religion making a greater attempt to impose its beliefs on the rest of the world -- by force and fear of violence -- and that religion isn't (nor does it claim to be) any branch of Christianity. -- Juan Buhler Water Molotov: http://photoblog.jbuhler.com Slippery Slope: http://color.jbuhler.com
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 14, 2006, at 7:16 PM, John Forbes wrote: And perhaps it's because those doing most of the bashing are from a Christian background themselves. It's within the family. I feel entirely at ease giving Christians hell, but would pause before meting out the same to those from other religions. And anyway, I'm only getting my own back for the long hours of religious nonsense forced upon me as a child. You can give Christians hell because they believe in it. Most other religions are enlightened enough to recognize hell as a particularly sick idea. Christianity needs psychotherapy. Bob Hell is a place specially reserved for those who believe in it -- Wise Man
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 15, 2006, at 12:06 AM, Gonz wrote: I actually believe that isolationism in the form of boycotts has the opposite effect intended. I.e. buying Chinese goods actually helps them move toward more freedom because of the injection of capitalistic ideas into their cultural fabric. This helps break down some of the extreme forms of repression we have seen in the past. The chinese government of today, while still totalitarian, is a long way from the days of old under the control of Mao and his cronies. They were quite isolated back then, much like North Korea is today. So let's all go out and buy North Korean goods? Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
fra: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 15, 2006, at 12:06 AM, Gonz wrote: I actually believe that isolationism in the form of boycotts has the opposite effect intended. I.e. buying Chinese goods actually helps them move toward more freedom because of the injection of capitalistic ideas into their cultural fabric. This helps break down some of the extreme forms of repression we have seen in the past. The chinese government of today, while still totalitarian, is a long way from the days of old under the control of Mao and his cronies. They were quite isolated back then, much like North Korea is today. So let's all go out and buy North Korean goods? In some ways Yes, but it\s a complex situation. If at least a little bit of the money comes in the hands that need them maybe we should. There's always the possibility that a boycot hurts the poor but not the rich. Remember that some countries, like North Korea, want isolation. They do not want influences from rich, democratic countries. That's one reason why many of them have restrictions on visitors. In 1987 I visited the Sovjet Union, especially Caucasus, Georgia and Tblisi, and we had some discussion regarding what impression we, the rich people from the west, made on the locals when we handed out cigarettes, pens, chewing gum and other small gifts. I felt uncomfortable with the situation, but to the local children we were like Santa Claus. They showed us the way back to the hotel and they got lots of small gifts. I dont think it fitted very well into the local propaganda were people from the west were evil... DagT
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
and how exactly do saudis impose their believes on the rest of the world? i don't remeber them invading any other country to impose sharia. best, mishka On 2/14/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Salafist wing of Sunni Islam, of which the Wahabbi's are the most noticable. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
i suspected so... best, mishka On 2/15/06, Juan Buhler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neoconservatism? On 2/14/06, Mishka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and which is that?
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Not the Saudi's as a nation (Although they do fund extremist Madrassas, whose students have become terrorists in a number of nations, including many of the foreign-born terrorists now operating in Iraq and they were the backbone of the Taliban), but you might note that one of the major Wahabbi extremist leaders is a guy named Osama Bin Laden. They were also a major funder of the Taliban (Who were Wahabbist, and portions thereof did invade Afghanistan to impose Sharia, much of the Taliban was/is actually Pakistani). Saudi's are also major funders of extremist Islamic groups worldwide, and Saudi funded groups actively promote both violence and imposition of Sharia wherever they are found (And they are heavily active in the UK, and to a lesser extent in the US). Note that I blamed the Wahabbists, not the Saudi's. The Saudi's are mainly Wahabbist Sunni (but not entirely, there is a notable, and heavily oppressed, Shia minority in Saudi Arabia) and are probably the #1 funder of Sunni Islamic Terrorist groups. They aren't the only major Islamic 'denominatio' seeking to impose Sharia on the world, but they are certainly the most active (the Shia groups seem more interested in imposing Sharia on their own countries). -Adam Mishka wrote: and how exactly do saudis impose their believes on the rest of the world? i don't remeber them invading any other country to impose sharia. best, mishka On 2/14/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Salafist wing of Sunni Islam, of which the Wahabbi's are the most noticable. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/14/06, Gautam Sarup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/14/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It ruled the part of the world that mattered... It was a different part that mattered then... Gautam, My comment was intended to be semi-humourous, and I should have put a smiley on it. It was also intended to be a somewhat mocking tautology: once Rome ruled an area, it mattered, and conversely, if Rome didn't rule it, it didn't matter. I now realize that my post might have been read by some as offensive and demeaning to those in some parts of the world, but it was certainly not my intention to insult anyone; I hope you didn't take it that way. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Hi I don't know what this has to do with Minolta, but ... You're both right!!, Henry was upset that the Pope wouldn't annul his marriage to ? , so decided to be his own pope as it were. But I think it was Elizabeth 1, who actually concretized the schism mostly for political reasons. Other interesting facts: Henry was en route towards the prieshood (bishop or better for him , of, course) , but for some reason, he ascended the throne instead. He also was quite the theologian and contributed quite a few thoughts on the theology of Mary in the RC church, some of which may also be still pertinate. So this is my contribution to this bizarre direction that this link is taking :-) herb While the Anglican's claim to be Protestant, they broke away over the Supremacy of the Pope, not over Doctrine (Anglican Doctrine is essentially Catholic, as is Orthodox Doctrine) so they are closer to Orthodox than the other Protestant demoninations which all have notable doctrinal differences with Catholic/Orthodox Doctrine. I thought they had broken away because some Henry or another wanted a divorce, and the RC Church wouldn't allow it.
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Now *that's* an army I would sign on for :) Sadly no, by definition, that's not it. And you know your analogy was worse than mine. j On 2/15/06, Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Secular Humanism? On Feb 15, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Juan Buhler wrote: Neoconservatism? On 2/14/06, Mishka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and which is that? best, mishka On 2/14/06, E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Demonstrably untrue. I'm not saying it wasn't true several centuries ago, but there's currently one religion making a greater attempt to impose its beliefs on the rest of the world -- by force and fear of violence -- and that religion isn't (nor does it claim to be) any branch of Christianity. -- Juan Buhler Water Molotov: http://photoblog.jbuhler.com Slippery Slope: http://color.jbuhler.com -- Juan Buhler Water Molotov: http://photoblog.jbuhler.com Slippery Slope: http://color.jbuhler.com
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
my comments inline, best, mishka On 2/15/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wahabbi extremist leaders is a guy named Osama Bin Laden. and just how did he impose his religion on the other countries? and on which? a major funder of the Taliban (Who were Wahabbist, and portions thereof did invade Afghanistan to impose Sharia afghanistan has been an islamic country, well before taleban appeared on the radar. they lived under sharia all along (except for a short period of soviet occupation). Saudi's are also major funders of extremist Islamic groups worldwide, and Saudi funded groups actively promote both violence and imposition of Sharia wherever they are found (And they are heavily active in the UK, and to a lesser extent in the US). don't know about UK, but i am blanking trying to remember who was imposing sharia on who, here in the US. the mormons and jehova's witnesses, otoh, have been quite annoying in the supermarkets...
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Hardly. Few in this world address their cause with more zealotry than our bretheren on the left. And even the pope is no more convinced of his infallibility than are the liberal idealogues. But that's true of many of the groups to which humans tend to migrate. I claim membership in none, but I sometimes feel obliged to hold up a mirror. Paul -- Original message -- From: Juan Buhler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now *that's* an army I would sign on for :) Sadly no, by definition, that's not it. And you know your analogy was worse than mine. j On 2/15/06, Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Secular Humanism? On Feb 15, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Juan Buhler wrote: Neoconservatism? On 2/14/06, Mishka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and which is that? best, mishka On 2/14/06, E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Demonstrably untrue. I'm not saying it wasn't true several centuries ago, but there's currently one religion making a greater attempt to impose its beliefs on the rest of the world -- by force and fear of violence -- and that religion isn't (nor does it claim to be) any branch of Christianity. -- Juan Buhler Water Molotov: http://photoblog.jbuhler.com Slippery Slope: http://color.jbuhler.com -- Juan Buhler Water Molotov: http://photoblog.jbuhler.com Slippery Slope: http://color.jbuhler.com
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Mishka wrote: my comments inline, best, mishka On 2/15/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wahabbi extremist leaders is a guy named Osama Bin Laden. and just how did he impose his religion on the other countries? and on which? His stated goal is to impose Sharia on the entire world. His attack on the US on 9/11 was planned to start a global Jihad which would result in the return of the Caliphate, imposition of Sharia on the Dar-al-Islam and then the eventual expansion of the Dar-al-Islam to encompass the entire globe. He was involved with the imposition of Wahhabist-style Sharia on Afghanistan though (He worked closely with the Taliban, and still does). a major funder of the Taliban (Who were Wahabbist, and portions thereof did invade Afghanistan to impose Sharia afghanistan has been an islamic country, well before taleban appeared on the radar. they lived under sharia all along (except for a short period of soviet occupation). Afghanistan was not under Sharia law prior to the Soviet invasion. They had a brief period of self-rule, under a democracy of sorts. The impositoin of Sharia happened in 1996, after a civil war which followed the Soviet pull-out. There is a distinct difference between a muslim country, and one under the rule of Sharia law. Right now only Iran and Saudi Arabia are truly under Shari law, other muslim nations have either limited implementations of Sharia, or a mostly secular legal apparatus. Saudi's are also major funders of extremist Islamic groups worldwide, and Saudi funded groups actively promote both violence and imposition of Sharia wherever they are found (And they are heavily active in the UK, and to a lesser extent in the US). don't know about UK, but i am blanking trying to remember who was imposing sharia on who, here in the US. the mormons and jehova's witnesses, otoh, have been quite annoying in the supermarkets... Not imposing, trying to impose (they've not succeeded, closest they came was in getting Sharia added to the list of religious arbitration options ofr Family Law, the government responded by ending all religious-based arbitration). There's a difference. And one of the differences is in methods. The Mormons and JW's try to convert by talking to you, the Wahabbists are willing to kill you. If you look at who has been organizing these 'spontaneous' demonstrations in London over the Mohammed Cartoons, you'll see which groups I'm referring to. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Adam Maas wrote: --snip-- Not imposing, trying to impose (they've not succeeded, closest they came was in getting Sharia added to the list of religious arbitration options ofr Family Law, the government responded by ending all religious-based arbitration). -Adam Note that this happened in Ontario, Canada. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
don't know about UK, but i am blanking trying to remember who was imposing sharia on who, here in the US. the mormons and jehova's witnesses, otoh, have been quite annoying in the supermarkets... Let's make sure we differentiate between holding a gun to your head and attempting to engage you in a constitutional exercise of free speech. See a difference there? Tom C.
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/15/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hardly. Few in this world address their cause with more zealotry than our bretheren on the left. And even the pope is no more convinced of his infallibility than are the liberal idealogues. But that's true of many of the groups to which humans tend to migrate. I claim membership in none, but I sometimes feel obliged to hold up a mirror. Paul, You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? -frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank theriault wrote: On 2/15/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hardly. Few in this world address their cause with more zealotry than our bretheren on the left. And even the pope is no more convinced of his infallibility than are the liberal idealogues. But that's true of many of the groups to which humans tend to migrate. I claim membership in none, but I sometimes feel obliged to hold up a mirror. Paul, You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? -frank I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/15/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. Ralph Nader is far left? I always took him for middle of the road. g cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank theriault wrote: On 2/15/06, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. Ralph Nader is far left? I always took him for middle of the road. g cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson Presidential Candidate for the Greens. That's far left. Of course I differentiate between Communists and the 'left'. The former are, like Libertarians, not really left or right but really opposites on a second axis. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 15, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Adam Maas wrote: I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. There's a big difference. I once worked for Pat Robertson. Ralph Nader at least believes what he preaches. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Adam Maas wrote: I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. There's a big difference. I once worked for Pat Robertson. Ralph Nader at least believes what he preaches. Bob He might believe it, he sure doesn't practice it. His organizations work very similarly to the 700 Club, being nothing but a big cash generation machine. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank, in usa, everything that's left of democrats is considered far left. best, mishka On 2/15/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ralph Nader is far left? I always took him for middle of the road. g cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
I think the activist left is a bit more zealous than the hardcore Evangelicals, but it's a close call. -- Original message -- From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/15/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hardly. Few in this world address their cause with more zealotry than our bretheren on the left. And even the pope is no more convinced of his infallibility than are the liberal idealogues. But that's true of many of the groups to which humans tend to migrate. I claim membership in none, but I sometimes feel obliged to hold up a mirror. Paul, You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? -frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
That's what makes him more dangerous. -- Original message -- From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 15, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Adam Maas wrote: I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. There's a big difference. I once worked for Pat Robertson. Ralph Nader at least believes what he preaches. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
I'm a Canadian, so I view anything left of the NDP (Which Nader is left of, generally) as far left. -Adam Mishka wrote: frank, in usa, everything that's left of democrats is considered far left. best, mishka On 2/15/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ralph Nader is far left? I always took him for middle of the road. g cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 15, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Mishka wrote: frank, in usa, everything that's left of democrats is considered far left. best, mishka You mean it's possible to be left of a democrat? Will wonders never cease!! Bob
RE: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
How does one measure zeal? -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 February 2006 19:58 To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE I think the activist left is a bit more zealous than the hardcore Evangelicals, but it's a close call.
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 03:08:32PM -0500, Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Mishka wrote: frank, in usa, everything that's left of democrats is considered far left. best, mishka You mean it's possible to be left of a democrat? Will wonders never cease!! With some (big D) Democrats it depends on when you do the measuring. But, yes, it's quite possible to be significantly to the left of the democratic party platform, just as it's possible to be to the right of the republican party platform - just take a look at the extremists in either party. It used to be that just about any political party in Europe (except, possibly, for the British Conservative party under Margaret Thatcher) would have been regarded as left of the American Democratic party.
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:20 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE frank theriault wrote: On 2/15/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hardly. Few in this world address their cause with more zealotry than our bretheren on the left. And even the pope is no more convinced of his infallibility than are the liberal idealogues. But that's true of many of the groups to which humans tend to migrate. I claim membership in none, but I sometimes feel obliged to hold up a mirror. Paul, You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? -frank I'd say equally zealous. There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Not if he can somehow make a buck off them. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Not if he can somehow make a buck off them. Bob Making money is the reason Nader hated them. Didn't matter that what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during teh first year they were on the market, and wasn't actually a major safety issue (Not to mention the fact that every Volkswagen Beetle had the same issue). It got Nader's name in the paper, and made him famous. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during the first year they were on the market, Actually, his design bitch (1960 model year - swing axle rear suspension) wasn't corrected for several years, until near the end of production, late 60's. I had a 61 Monza coupe long sweeping turns could get real interesting if you were pushing it. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Not if he can somehow make a buck off them. Bob Making money is the reason Nader hated them. Didn't matter that what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during teh first year they were on the market, and wasn't actually a major safety issue (Not to mention the fact that every Volkswagen Beetle had the same issue). It got Nader's name in the paper, and made him famous. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
The problem itself was corrected by the addition of a rear anti-sway bar, which all but the 1960 base model had. Note the Beetle has essentially the same rear suspension design. That's not to say that it didn't get sketchy when pushed, but Nader's complaint was that it was always dangerous, which it wasn't if you had the anti-sway bar. -Adam Kenneth Waller wrote: what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during the first year they were on the market, Actually, his design bitch (1960 model year - swing axle rear suspension) wasn't corrected for several years, until near the end of production, late 60's. I had a 61 Monza coupe long sweeping turns could get real interesting if you were pushing it. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Not if he can somehow make a buck off them. Bob Making money is the reason Nader hated them. Didn't matter that what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during teh first year they were on the market, and wasn't actually a major safety issue (Not to mention the fact that every Volkswagen Beetle had the same issue). It got Nader's name in the paper, and made him famous. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Nader made more than a few bucks off those Corvairs. In fact, he made a career off them. -- Original message -- From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Not if he can somehow make a buck off them. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Of course VW, Porsche and Mercedes all used swing axle rear suspensions as well. Perhaps most damning was the Mercedes version with only a single center pivot. Getting the tires up on edge didn't require much effort. I know that for a fact. Drove a 59 220S for quite a few years. Nice looking car, but quite a handful with its swingle axle in the rear and kingpins up front. Paul -- Original message -- From: Kenneth Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during the first year they were on the market, Actually, his design bitch (1960 model year - swing axle rear suspension) wasn't corrected for several years, until near the end of production, late 60's. I had a 61 Monza coupe long sweeping turns could get real interesting if you were pushing it. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Bob Shell wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: There's precious little difference in my books between Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson in my books. I don't think Robertson hates Corvairs. Not if he can somehow make a buck off them. Bob Making money is the reason Nader hated them. Didn't matter that what he was complaining about only actually applied to the base model during teh first year they were on the market, and wasn't actually a major safety issue (Not to mention the fact that every Volkswagen Beetle had the same issue). It got Nader's name in the paper, and made him famous. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one measure zeal? With a zeal-o-meter. And, Adam and Paul and everyone else, I'm at a point in this thread where I'm just pulling everyone's leg, and being totally not serious (how's that for good use of the language English?). Who's farther left than whom, or what's left, right or in the middle strikes me as silly, irrelevent and meaningless. But, that's just me... cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
I agree. I raised a few points only to suggest that many of these religous/political incriminations apply fairly equally across the spectrum. I am all for giving it a rest. Paul -- Original message -- From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one measure zeal? With a zeal-o-meter. And, Adam and Paul and everyone else, I'm at a point in this thread where I'm just pulling everyone's leg, and being totally not serious (how's that for good use of the language English?). Who's farther left than whom, or what's left, right or in the middle strikes me as silly, irrelevent and meaningless. But, that's just me... cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/15/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. I raised a few points only to suggest that many of these religous/political incriminations apply fairly equally across the spectrum. I am all for giving it a rest. We are in accords, sir. As long as we all remember that whatever position I espouse, and whatever label one wishes to place on my position, that I'm right and everyone else is also right, then we'll be just fine. Anyone else who wants to discuss the matter further should show up to GFM with beer... LOL cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Nader made more than a few bucks off those Corvairs. In fact, he made a career off them. I suspect the Pinto helped... I can well imagine he is unpopular with people in and around the auto industry, I also expect he has saved a lot of lives. William Robb
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: Bob Shell Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE You mean it's possible to be left of a democrat? In Canada, they are called conservatives. It just gets lefter from there. William Robb
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: Bob W Subject: RE: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE How does one measure zeal? A zealometer. If you have lots, do they give you a zeal of approval? WW
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 15, 2006, at 5:09 PM, William Robb wrote: How does one measure zeal? A zealometer. If you have lots, do they give you a zeal of approval? How about making fur coats from zeal pelts? Bob
RE: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
-Original Message- From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one measure zeal? With a zeal-o-meter. I may have thought up a way to do it. What we need to do is find everybody who identifies themselves as far left or Christian Right, plus a control group of sensible middle-of-the-roaders such as myself. We give each of them a heart rate monitor. Instruct them on its use, and get them to measure their resting heart rate over a certain period of time, and their daily average over a similar period. Now, we put each of them into a room which contains a screen. There is nothing behind the screen other than an Eliza-like computer program, but we tell our zealous guinea pigs that there is a potential convert there, and ask them to proselytise for a certain time (the same time for each zealot, of course). The computer is programmed to respond in an encouraging, almost-convinced way throughout. We take a pre-proselytisation heart rate measurement, and a post-proselytisation measurement. The difference between these means we can identify the most zealous individuals, as well as calculate averages, means and standard deviations to show us which group is the most zealous. Of course, most of the standard deviations will belong to the left. Right-wingers and religious people rather surprisingly tend to have significantly non-standard deviations. The average is important because, of course, one group may be significantly smaller than the other, and contain people whose ZQ (zealotry quotient) is higher than the other group. But the size of the other population could make them more zealous in absolute terms. However, I would imagine the lefties to be a smaller and considerably less zealous on average than the Christian Rightists, if only because they smoke so much grass and spend much more time asleep. Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I may have thought up a way to do it. What we need to do is find everybody who identifies themselves as far left or Christian Right, plus a control group of sensible middle-of-the-roaders such as myself.snip I'll be your far-leftie. Anyone want to be our rightie? Do we get to have beer? I do my best arguing with beer. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
RE: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
I've thought of another way which doesn't necessarily require so many guinea pigs, and may give more accurate results. First we select equal numbers of people from each group and test their physical strength, particularly their ability to push. We select a large number of people who have equal strength. Next we find 2 identical schools and assign a school to each group of zealots. Build a wall between each school and its associated zealots. The walls must be of equal strength. Then we tell the lefties that some creationists are teaching Intelligent Design in a science class in the school, and we tell the Christian Right that some lefties are encouraging teens to have pre-marital sex. The first group to push their wall down trying to get into the school is the most zealous! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: Bob W [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 February 2006 22:42 To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE -Original Message- From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one measure zeal? With a zeal-o-meter. I may have thought up a way to do it. What we need to do is find everybody who identifies themselves as far left or Christian Right, plus a control group of sensible middle-of-the-roaders such as myself. We give each of them a heart rate monitor. Instruct them on its use, and get them to measure their resting heart rate over a certain period of time, and their daily average over a similar period. Now, we put each of them into a room which contains a screen. There is nothing behind the screen other than an Eliza-like computer program, but we tell our zealous guinea pigs that there is a potential convert there, and ask them to proselytise for a certain time (the same time for each zealot, of course). The computer is programmed to respond in an encouraging, almost-convinced way throughout. We take a pre-proselytisation heart rate measurement, and a post-proselytisation measurement. The difference between these means we can identify the most zealous individuals, as well as calculate averages, means and standard deviations to show us which group is the most zealous. Of course, most of the standard deviations will belong to the left. Right-wingers and religious people rather surprisingly tend to have significantly non-standard deviations. The average is important because, of course, one group may be significantly smaller than the other, and contain people whose ZQ (zealotry quotient) is higher than the other group. But the size of the other population could make them more zealous in absolute terms. However, I would imagine the lefties to be a smaller and considerably less zealous on average than the Christian Rightists, if only because they smoke so much grass and spend much more time asleep. Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 15/2/06, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: How does one measure zeal? Zealometer Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Nader made more than a few bucks off those Corvairs. In fact, he made a career off them. I suspect the Pinto helped... I can well imagine he is unpopular with people in and around the auto industry, I also expect he has saved a lot of lives. William Robb Only problem was the cars weren't unsafe. It was all hysteria pumped up by Nader Co. He later tried to do so with GM pickups, but had to give up when his people got caught faking the exploding gas tanks. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank theriault wrote: On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I may have thought up a way to do it. What we need to do is find everybody who identifies themselves as far left or Christian Right, plus a control group of sensible middle-of-the-roaders such as myself.snip I'll be your far-leftie. Anyone want to be our rightie? Do we get to have beer? I do my best arguing with beer. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson Well, for a Canuck, I'm pretty far right. Which puts me right on the cusp between a Democrat and a Republican. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Well, for a Canuck, I'm pretty far right. Which puts me right on the cusp between a Democrat and a Republican. Don't kid yourself. It puts you not far off the left of a Democrat. William Robb
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
He (Nader) later tried to do so with GM pickups, but had to give up when his people got caught faking the exploding gas tanks. ?? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Nader behind this particular episode. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Nader made more than a few bucks off those Corvairs. In fact, he made a career off them. I suspect the Pinto helped... I can well imagine he is unpopular with people in and around the auto industry, I also expect he has saved a lot of lives. William Robb Only problem was the cars weren't unsafe. It was all hysteria pumped up by Nader Co. He later tried to do so with GM pickups, but had to give up when his people got caught faking the exploding gas tanks. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Well, for a Canuck, I'm pretty far right. Which puts me right on the cusp between a Democrat and a Republican. Don't kid yourself. It puts you not far off the left of a Democrat. William Robb Given my foreign policy positions, I'm pretty much a match for a Leiberman or Miller politically, and they go either way. -Adam
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: Kenneth Waller Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE He (Nader) later tried to do so with GM pickups, but had to give up when his people got caught faking the exploding gas tanks. ?? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Nader behind this particular episode. I thought that was 60 Minutes or some such as that. William Robb
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
- Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE Given my foreign policy positions, I'm pretty much a match for a Leiberman or Miller politically, and they go either way. Thats only one parameter. William Robb
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Hey Frank, No offense taken. It was just a matter of fact reply. I think people who get offended or demeaned by things that happened centuries ago should wake up. Cheers, Gautam On 2/15/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/14/06, Gautam Sarup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/14/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It ruled the part of the world that mattered... It was a different part that mattered then... Gautam, My comment was intended to be semi-humourous, and I should have put a smiley on it. It was also intended to be a somewhat mocking tautology: once Rome ruled an area, it mattered, and conversely, if Rome didn't rule it, it didn't matter. I now realize that my post might have been read by some as offensive and demeaning to those in some parts of the world, but it was certainly not my intention to insult anyone; I hope you didn't take it that way. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank theriault wrote: On 2/15/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hardly. Few in this world address their cause with more zealotry than our bretheren on the left. And even the pope is no more convinced of his infallibility than are the liberal idealogues. But that's true of many of the groups to which humans tend to migrate. I claim membership in none, but I sometimes feel obliged to hold up a mirror. Paul, You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? Sometimes they are. Look at the red paint spraying anti-fur people. Or the whole Michael Moore thing (Farenheight 911). -frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
of course the whole Michael Moore thing got Palme d'Or. of course that was just a part of a giant plot of ultra-left french zealots to humiliate those who love freedom. the other parts of the same include imports roquefort and beaujolais. best, mishka On 2/16/06, Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really think that the left is more zealous than, say the Evangelical Religious Right, especially in the US? Sometimes they are. Look at the red paint spraying anti-fur people. Or the whole Michael Moore thing (Farenheight 911).
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
You have way too much time on your hands. ;) Bob W wrote: -Original Message- From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/15/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one measure zeal? With a zeal-o-meter. I may have thought up a way to do it. What we need to do is find everybody who identifies themselves as far left or Christian Right, plus a control group of sensible middle-of-the-roaders such as myself. We give each of them a heart rate monitor. Instruct them on its use, and get them to measure their resting heart rate over a certain period of time, and their daily average over a similar period. Now, we put each of them into a room which contains a screen. There is nothing behind the screen other than an Eliza-like computer program, but we tell our zealous guinea pigs that there is a potential convert there, and ask them to proselytise for a certain time (the same time for each zealot, of course). The computer is programmed to respond in an encouraging, almost-convinced way throughout. We take a pre-proselytisation heart rate measurement, and a post-proselytisation measurement. The difference between these means we can identify the most zealous individuals, as well as calculate averages, means and standard deviations to show us which group is the most zealous. Of course, most of the standard deviations will belong to the left. Right-wingers and religious people rather surprisingly tend to have significantly non-standard deviations. The average is important because, of course, one group may be significantly smaller than the other, and contain people whose ZQ (zealotry quotient) is higher than the other group. But the size of the other population could make them more zealous in absolute terms. However, I would imagine the lefties to be a smaller and considerably less zealous on average than the Christian Rightists, if only because they smoke so much grass and spend much more time asleep. Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Marnie, Firstly, I didn't mean to come across as aggressive though I might have. Secondly, there's a lot more to prices and wages than safety laws. As an example, computer programming is a safe occupation. Having worked in this profession in multiple countries I do not find a difference in worker safety. Yet these jobs are being distributed around the world. The important factor here is not safety but availability of workers and the wages those workers have to be paid. Similar factors for other industries are raw materials, transportation costs etc. Safety has a relative aspect too. One needs to ask the question, safe in comparison to what? For most workers in the third world, safety lies in what you might consider unsafe but for them the alternative (starvation) is worse. Life is unarguably safer than death. After all, the whole point of safety is for life. I would also like to point out that without globalization this list would not exist. Pentax is a Japanese company, after all. So not everything to do with globalization is bad. There are some benefits too. capital loses its national identity... [David Korten] Capital lost it's national identity thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) of years ago when tribes of men started dealing with each other. Further, it has not had a national identity for all of historic times. It's simply too late to bemoan the fact. localities no longer share control over trade and capital with the firm. [David Korten] Localities never had any right to share control over trade and capital with firms. All resources of firms belong to their owners and nobody else. However, if one argues that they do then it can also be claimed that the sharing is still being done but with other localities that insist a little less on the right to share. It can't last forever, of course, because eventually workers in all countries will demand more rights, but it can last a long, long, long, long, long time. There are still a lot of poor countries for companies to continue to migrate to once one country has wised up. Ah! But it can. As you say, US workers are getting poorer. So by the time workers in the now poor countries get rich and wise up, US workers will be poor. Then all the services jobs will be in India, China (maybe even Tanzania) etc. and low paid manufacturing jobs will be in the US. :) This is just to point out the contradiction. I'm not saying this is going to happen. I need to show a PESO soon, and get back to photography, but you asked. Thanks for taking the time. Look forward to the PESO. Cheers, Gautam On 2/13/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/12/2006 11:17:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2/12/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip The path of globalization tends to lead downward to the lowest common denominator. [snip] How so? Cheers, Gautam US (and probably European and Japanese too) Companies move to countries where they can pay their workers the least amount. And where there are no worker protection laws say regarding toxic substances and safety on the job. Which make products in countries where there are protections for workers more expensive by comparison. Which tends to bring down the job market in those countries that do protect workers. For instance, the USA used to be a major manufacturing center. Now most manufacturing of US company products is done overseas where they can pay workers less -- a lot, lot, lot, less -- and not have to worry about niggling safety laws. So the US has turned into a service economy, where service jobs are the largest growing segment of the economy. Service jobs have replaced manufacturing jobs. Except service related jobs (say hotel workers) pay about 1/3-1/4 of what manufacturing jobs once did. So the average worker in the USA is actually getting poorer. As evidenced by one of our biggest employers now, WalMart, that doesn't provide health care for its workers, and doesn't pay them enough to let them even approach a decent standard of living. Downward spiral. All around. For everyone. Spiraling down to the least common denominator. It can't last forever, of course, because eventually workers in all countries will demand more rights, but it can last a long, long, long, long, long time. There are still a lot of poor countries for companies to continue to migrate to once one country has wised up. That's about as well as I can sum it up. Under the conditions of an integrated world economy... in which capital flows freely across national borders to the locality offering the highest, quickest profits, capital transnationalizes; capital loses its national identity... localities no longer share control over trade and capital with the firm. Instead, control rests almost exclusively with firms that have limited local attachment... Today the most intense
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
In a message dated 2/14/2006 12:11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ah! But it can. As you say, US workers are getting poorer. So by the time workers in the now poor countries get rich and wise up, US workers will be poor. Then all the services jobs will be in India, China (maybe even Tanzania) etc. and low paid manufacturing jobs will be in the US. :) This is just to point out the contradiction. I'm not saying this is going to happen. I need to show a PESO soon, and get back to photography, but you asked. Thanks for taking the time. Look forward to the PESO. Cheers, Gautam = You may think nothing has changed. But the US has changed -- drastically. Which matters to me and a lot of other US citizens. Thanks for your thoughtfulness, though. Marnie aka Doe
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
In a message dated 2/14/2006 12:11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks for taking the time. Look forward to the PESO. Cheers, Gautam Okay, I'll say two more things, then stop. This whole thing depresses the hell out of me. It always has, ever since NAFTA passed. People were sold a bill of goods, and are still being sold a bill of goods. They fact they were conned was deliberate. To address two points you made, I don't care about Pentax, it is a Japanese company. I sometimes wonder about that. But globalization in that sense has gone on for some time. (I could put in a thing about WWII and US money rebuilding Japan here, but won't.) Economic globalization has nothing to do with the creation of the Internet either. (I could put in a thing here about the Internet actually first started with a network of defense department machines and then linking up US colleges here, but won't.) The two points: 1. I believe US taxes, that US citizens pay, should benefit US citizens. Not other countries, and not benefit US owned (mainly US owned) corporations that move US jobs to other countries. When, in fact, US citizens have been paying taxes to help those companies export jobs for years. I mean, let's face it, the US is just a nation. As a nation we are not responsible for the economy of other nations or the world. And we can't afford it, either. And our citizens can't afford to lose jobs, either. Nations are supposed to be in the business of taking care of their citizens. Otherwise there is no purpose to the existence of a nation. 2. Capitalism is exported. Democracy is not. Too many equate the two (at least in this country). And therein lies the ultimate downfall of the economic globalization the US has helped promote and continues to help promote. This was never done for any altruistic reasons. A quick google search turned up these about taxes and US corporations: http://www.cfr.com.ky/cfr_articles_detail.cfm?number=9 http://www.ctj.org/html/layoffs.htm http://www.nwu-oppose-offshoring.org/offshoring-campaign/government-offshoring .html I read a great science-fiction novel years, and years, and years ago, that I've been trying to find ever since. Well, well, well before NAFTA, well before this was even conceived of. I'd say at least 20 years ago, maybe even longer. Well, it wasn't that well-written, as I recall, but the ideas were starling and an eye opener. And ever since, as time has gone on, I feel it has become more and more prophetic. I wish I knew what the name of it was, maybe it was a short story. Some have written the same idea since, but it was the first one to do so as far as I know. The idea was - in the future there are no nations, only corporations, and all allegiance is to those corporations. People are citizens of corporations, not nations. Governments can protect people, corporations never will. Not in the same sense. Because self-government cannot be equaled by profit seeking. Okay, I shut up now. This is an extremely depressing subject. Now I have to take some pictures to even produce a PESO. And I don't see how having and taking a political stance is anything but that (this last is not directed at you, Gautam :-)). Marnie aka Doe
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I read a great science-fiction novel years, and years, and years ago, that I've been trying to find ever since. Well, well, well before NAFTA, well before this was even conceived of. I'd say at least 20 years ago, maybe even longer. Well, it wasn't that well-written, as I recall, but the ideas were starling and an eye opener. And ever since, as time has gone on, I feel it has become more and more prophetic. I wish I knew what the name of it was, maybe it was a short story. Some have written the same idea since, but it was the first one to do so as far as I know. The idea was - in the future there are no nations, only corporations, and all allegiance is to those corporations. People are citizens of corporations, not nations. One of the best being Do androids dream of electric sheep? AKA Bladerunner. I'll have to think a bit about which one might be the one you are thinking about. I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. m - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 09:32:37AM +, mike wilson wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I read a great science-fiction novel years, and years, and years ago, that I've been trying to find ever since. Well, well, well before NAFTA, well before this was even conceived of. I'd say at least 20 years ago, maybe even longer. Well, it wasn't that well-written, as I recall, but the ideas were starling and an eye opener. And ever since, as time has gone on, I feel it has become more and more prophetic. I wish I knew what the name of it was, maybe it was a short story. Some have written the same idea since, but it was the first one to do so as far as I know. The idea was - in the future there are no nations, only corporations, and all allegiance is to those corporations. People are citizens of corporations, not nations. One of the best being Do androids dream of electric sheep? AKA Bladerunner. I'll have to think a bit about which one might be the one you are thinking about. I'd definitely suggest taking a look at Phil Dick's stuff - he wrote quite a lot about dystopias being run by giant multinationals (IG Farben was one of his pet names for the opressive corporations). John Brunner might be another possibility.
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
BTW, sure someone will correct me about creation of the Internet. Etc. Not totally up on the history of that. I tend to speak from passion rather than having all the dry facts assembled, and I know that seriously annoys some people. So correct away. I am unsubscribing for a while. Not in a huff. :-) But because PDML is seriously sidetracking me from stuff I need to finish. While I've let myself be sidetracked -- I seem to be Internet addicted some times -- I need to have my head clear and free for some programming projects. And I can't seem to lurk. Tried it and I couldn't. Be back in 3-4 weeks, where I plan only to comment on some PESOs now and then, and deliver the results of another survey I did not long ago. OT politics is not really appropriate to PDML. Although the OT threads are sometimes the most fun. :-) But I've been OT enough for the next six months, I think. :-) I am sure you can carry on without me -- arguing, and speculating. Later, Marnie Unsubscribing now.
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, mike wilson wrote: I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy isn't that far away from that premise... Yes, I know it's supposed to be for kids :-) Chris
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
From: Chris Stoddart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/02/14 Tue AM 10:49:36 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, mike wilson wrote: I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy isn't that far away from that premise... Yes, I know it's supposed to be for kids :-) Chris This was just a novella. Electricity? Internal combustion? Work of the Devil!! Hero drove a traction engine. 8-) - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE transmuted into Sci Fi
On Feb 14, 2006, at 4:32 AM, mike wilson wrote: One of the best being Do androids dream of electric sheep? AKA Bladerunner. I'll have to think a bit about which one might be the one you are thinking about. I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. I like Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories. Set in a modern world in which magic triumphed over science. Fun stuff. I like some of Phil Dick's stuff, but don't think I would have liked him as a person. I still think Blade Runner is one of the top three or four sci fi films ever made. Every few years a new generation picks up on it and it goes through a renaissance. The future it created is very believable. Bob
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE transmuted into Sci Fi
From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/02/14 Tue AM 11:31:05 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE transmuted into Sci Fi On Feb 14, 2006, at 4:32 AM, mike wilson wrote: One of the best being Do androids dream of electric sheep? AKA Bladerunner. I'll have to think a bit about which one might be the one you are thinking about. I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. I like Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories. Set in a modern world in which magic triumphed over science. Fun stuff. I like some of Phil Dick's stuff, but don't think I would have liked him as a person. I still think Blade Runner is one of the top three or four sci fi films ever made. Every few years a new generation picks up on it and it goes through a renaissance. The future it created is very believable. I'm suprised that a lot more SF has not been picked up by Hollywood. There's a huge amount of disparate, space-opera shoot-em-ups waiting to generate income for the studios. The 18-24 market would lap it up. m - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read a great science-fiction novel years, and years, and years ago, that I've been trying to find ever since. Well, well, well before NAFTA, well before this was even conceived of. I'd say at least 20 years ago, maybe even longer. Well, it wasn't that well-written, as I recall, but the ideas were starling and an eye opener. And ever since, as time has gone on, I feel it has become more and more prophetic. I wish I knew what the name of it was, maybe it was a short story. Some have written the same idea since, but it was the first one to do so as far as I know. The idea was - in the future there are no nations, only corporations, and all allegiance is to those corporations. People are citizens of corporations, not nations. Perhaps the sci-fi novel you are referring to is The Space Merchants by Frederick Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth. It is a very well written novel about a corporation-controlled world, with citizens divided in three classes: producers, consumers and high executives, and driven by consumerism. Carlos
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, mike wilson wrote: I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. Still ruled by the Catholic Church? Even before the Reformation the Catholic Church didn't rule the world!
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE transmuted into Sci Fi
On Feb 14, 2006, at 6:49 AM, mike wilson wrote: I'm suprised that a lot more SF has not been picked up by Hollywood. There's a huge amount of disparate, space-opera shoot- em-ups waiting to generate income for the studios. The 18-24 market would lap it up. Producers don't read science fiction and don't understand it. That's why so many of the sci fi films that do get done are such abominations. The fan base is there. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/14/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, sure someone will correct me about creation of the Internet. Etc. Not totally up on the history of that. I tend to speak from passion rather than having all the dry facts assembled, and I know that seriously annoys some people. So correct away. Everyone knows Al Gore invented the Internet. Perry Pellechia Primary email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alternate email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://homer.chem.sc.edu/perry
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/14/06, Perry Pellechia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone knows Al Gore invented the Internet. No, you have it backwards, my friend. The internet invented Al Gore. g -frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On 2/14/06, E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still ruled by the Catholic Church? Even before the Reformation the Catholic Church didn't rule the world! It ruled the part of the world that mattered... -frank the ex-Catholic (or perhaps more accurately, the recovering Catholic) LOL -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
From: E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/02/14 Tue PM 12:59:36 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, mike wilson wrote: I am in the same boat as you regarding _my_ favourite prophecy novel. It postulates that the Reformation never occured and the world is still ruled by the Catholic church. _That_ prospect is scary. Still ruled by the Catholic Church? Even before the Reformation the Catholic Church didn't rule the world! Oooh, guilty of religionism 8-) The Christian world. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE transmuted into Sci Fi
From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/02/14 Tue PM 01:23:28 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE transmuted into Sci Fi On Feb 14, 2006, at 6:49 AM, mike wilson wrote: I'm suprised that a lot more SF has not been picked up by Hollywood. There's a huge amount of disparate, space-opera shoot- em-ups waiting to generate income for the studios. The 18-24 market would lap it up. Producers don't read science fiction and don't understand it. That's why so many of the sci fi films that do get done are such abominations. The fan base is there. I didn't say they would be any good. Just that they would sell. m - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
Gud forgive you! Now that purgatory has been closed there's no where else, besides down, for you to go. But didn't the previous Pope say something vague about Hell not being a 'physical' place? Most of what he had to say was so vague that it will take a long time to sort it all out. Oh my Gud have I stepped over a line? D frank theriault wrote: On 2/14/06, E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still ruled by the Catholic Church? Even before the Reformation the Catholic Church didn't rule the world! It ruled the part of the world that mattered... -frank the ex-Catholic (or perhaps more accurately, the recovering Catholic) LOL -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- Dr E D F Williams __ http://www.kolumbus.fi/mimosa/index.htm http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams See feature: The Cement Company from Hell Updated: Added Print Gallery - 16 11 2005
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
On Feb 14, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Don Williams wrote: Gud forgive you! Now that purgatory has been closed there's no where else, besides down, for you to go. But didn't the previous Pope say something vague about Hell not being a 'physical' place? Most of what he had to say was so vague that it will take a long time to sort it all out. Oh my Gud have I stepped over a line? One toke over the line, sweet Jesus, one toke over the line. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
I always find it amusing that while anti-semitism is strictly verboten and speaking negatively of the Muslim faith is frowned upon by the politically correct, Catholic bashing is not only appropriate, it's a favorite diversion of open-minded liberals. Funny how that works. Paul -- Original message -- From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 14, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Don Williams wrote: Gud forgive you! Now that purgatory has been closed there's no where else, besides down, for you to go. But didn't the previous Pope say something vague about Hell not being a 'physical' place? Most of what he had to say was so vague that it will take a long time to sort it all out. Oh my Gud have I stepped over a line? One toke over the line, sweet Jesus, one toke over the line. Bob
Re: OT: HCB with a Minolta CLE
frank theriault wrote: On 2/14/06, E.R.N. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still ruled by the Catholic Church? Even before the Reformation the Catholic Church didn't rule the world! It ruled the part of the world that mattered... ... to the people in it. It didn't even rule Western Europe all that completely. -frank the ex-Catholic (or perhaps more accurately, the recovering Catholic) LOL Think you got that one right the first time. -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson Remind me how we got from him to here, again? On second thoughts -- no, don't!!
