Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Cameron Sanders via Pharo-dev]

--- Begin Message ---
Seems that it was renamed?

Any hints of the tools I should look at to find the rank of something in a
distribution?

-cam

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Cameron Sanders via Pharo-dev <
pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> wrote:

>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Cameron Sanders 
> To: Pharo Development List 
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 13:46:31 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> So was SciSmalltalk renamed?
> -cam
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Torsten Bergmann  wrote:
>
>> It is understandable that over time an own identity for Pharo is helpful
>> (especially
>> because of the bad Smalltalk marketing, failures of commercial vendors in
>> the past, ...).
>> But also no one can not deny/hide the original roots of Pharo: the
>> primary foundations
>> with pure objects all the way down and messages and concepts just plain
>> Smalltalk.
>> Same for the basic class hierarchy, ...
>>
>> So this discussion is useless, especially because Pharo still lacks many
>> of the
>> features a portable, integratable environment should have (and that
>> Smalltalk
>> failed to deliver, at least in a common way). We should not confuse
>> wishes/dreams
>> with existing state of the technology and facts.
>>
>> Also why discuss about this now again? Did we discuss about renaming
>> SUnit into PUnit? No.
>> This just burns our cycles.
>>
>> For the marketing part there is a primary question to be answered: what
>> are the
>> (business) problems Pharo can solve. At least if we want Pharo to be
>> commercially
>> viable and get money (not only our own) into the community.
>> This is the part that was answered by other languages and technologies so
>> far and
>> the simple reason why they are used: even when they are ugly they solve a
>> problem.
>>
>> Nonetheless:
>> 
>> If there is a rename I would suggest to rename "SciSmalltalk"
>> into "Polymath".
>>  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath
>>  - it can be applied to many subject areas
>>  - would be related to Math and science
>>  - would also have a "P" like Pharo in the name
>>  - Da Vinci was a polymath person, as well as Imhotep :)
>>
>> Bye
>> T.
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Cameron Sanders via Pharo-dev]

--- Begin Message ---
So was SciSmalltalk renamed?
-cam

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Torsten Bergmann  wrote:

> It is understandable that over time an own identity for Pharo is helpful
> (especially
> because of the bad Smalltalk marketing, failures of commercial vendors in
> the past, ...).
> But also no one can not deny/hide the original roots of Pharo: the primary
> foundations
> with pure objects all the way down and messages and concepts just plain
> Smalltalk.
> Same for the basic class hierarchy, ...
>
> So this discussion is useless, especially because Pharo still lacks many
> of the
> features a portable, integratable environment should have (and that
> Smalltalk
> failed to deliver, at least in a common way). We should not confuse
> wishes/dreams
> with existing state of the technology and facts.
>
> Also why discuss about this now again? Did we discuss about renaming SUnit
> into PUnit? No.
> This just burns our cycles.
>
> For the marketing part there is a primary question to be answered: what
> are the
> (business) problems Pharo can solve. At least if we want Pharo to be
> commercially
> viable and get money (not only our own) into the community.
> This is the part that was answered by other languages and technologies so
> far and
> the simple reason why they are used: even when they are ugly they solve a
> problem.
>
> Nonetheless:
> 
> If there is a rename I would suggest to rename "SciSmalltalk"
> into "Polymath".
>  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath
>  - it can be applied to many subject areas
>  - would be related to Math and science
>  - would also have a "P" like Pharo in the name
>  - Da Vinci was a polymath person, as well as Imhotep :)
>
> Bye
> T.
>
>
--- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

Le 6/3/16 14:53, Nicolai Hess a écrit :



Thank you Stéphane Ducasse,
thank you Eliot Miranda,
and all other people of this community.

I appreciate what all you are doing (as a teacher / developer / user / 
supporter)
for environment>

and it is a pleasure for me to work with you.


Me too :)


(this is all I have to say to this topic)

Thanks ! And go one :-)

nicolai

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Torsten Bergmann]

It is understandable that over time an own identity for Pharo is helpful 
(especially 
because of the bad Smalltalk marketing, failures of commercial vendors in the 
past, ...).
But also no one can not deny/hide the original roots of Pharo: the primary 
foundations 
with pure objects all the way down and messages and concepts just plain 
Smalltalk. 
Same for the basic class hierarchy, ... 

So this discussion is useless, especially because Pharo still lacks many of the 
features a portable, integratable environment should have (and that Smalltalk 
failed to deliver, at least in a common way). We should not confuse 
wishes/dreams 
with existing state of the technology and facts.

Also why discuss about this now again? Did we discuss about renaming SUnit into 
PUnit? No.
This just burns our cycles.

For the marketing part there is a primary question to be answered: what are the 
(business) problems Pharo can solve. At least if we want Pharo to be 
commercially 
viable and get money (not only our own) into the community. 
This is the part that was answered by other languages and technologies so far 
and 
the simple reason why they are used: even when they are ugly they solve a 
problem. 

Nonetheless:

If there is a rename I would suggest to rename "SciSmalltalk" into "Polymath".  
  
 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath
 - it can be applied to many subject areas
 - would be related to Math and science
 - would also have a "P" like Pharo in the name
 - Da Vinci was a polymath person, as well as Imhotep :)

Bye
T.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Yuriy Tymchuk]

You know people, you should get a life.

The call was to Pharoers to improve Numerical Methods in Pharo. I understand 
that someone is pissed that Pharo is evolving, but I don’t understand why you 
keep replying to them.

Uko

> On 06 Mar 2016, at 14:31, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Date: 6 March 2016 at 14:31:24 GMT+1
> To: Pharo Development List 
> Cc: Benoit St-Jean 
> Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean , Pharo Development List 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Benoit St-Jean 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Date: 6 March 2016 at 14:30:03 GMT+1
> To: Pharo Development List 
> Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean 
> 
> 
> Amen!
> 
> My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than 
> Hollansworth!
> 
> I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than 
> Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it 
> or not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded 
> programming language...
> 
> I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s.  I don't care : 
> VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk!  I'm closer to Pharo than I am to 
> anything else (except Modula-2).
> 
> This stupid war is sooo stupid!
> 
> If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period.
> 
> Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still 
> Smalltalk!
> 
> These guys (the Pharoers, and Stéphane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps 
> forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James 
> Robertson" ?
> 
> I like Pharo.  I fell in love with VW 2.5.  
> 
> Vous êtes si belles, vous toutes!
> 
> I love Smalltalk!
> 
> 
>  
> - 
> Benoît St-Jean 
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean 
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux 
> Pinterest: benoitstjean 
> IRC: lamneth 
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com 
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
> 
> 
> From: Dimitris Chloupis 
> To: Pharo Development List  
> Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> 
> Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in 
> Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by 
> this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a 
> modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no 
> mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week 
> before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website 
> whatsoever.  Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ? 
> 
> Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk 
> is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with 
> Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going 
> outside their comfort zone. Personally  I am fine with that but this is why I 
> use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I 
> dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority. 
> 
> I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very 
> uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at 
> some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont 
> happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its 
> failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and 
> more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support 
> plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak 
> and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would 
> removed code that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) 
> Even if you have a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why 
> people use Pharo is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying 
> to connect with modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in 
> the core.
> 
> And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving. 
> 
> I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual 
> memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now 
> I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , 
> templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of 
> greatly design GUI and graphi

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Nicolai Hess]

Thank you Stéphane Ducasse,
thank you Eliot Miranda,
and all other people of this community.

I appreciate what all you are doing (as a teacher / developer / user /
supporter)
for 
and it is a pleasure for me to work with you.

(this is all I have to say to this topic)

Thanks ! And go one :-)

nicolai

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev]

--- Begin Message ---
Amen!
My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than Hollansworth!
I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than 
Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it or 
not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded programming 
language...

I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s.  I don't care : 
VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk!  I'm closer to Pharo than I am to 
anything else (except Modula-2).
This stupid war is sooo stupid!
If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period.
Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still Smalltalk!
These guys (the Pharoers, and Stéphane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps 
forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James 
Robertson" ?
I like Pharo.  I fell in love with VW 2.5.  

Vous êtes si belles, vous toutes!
I love Smalltalk!


 - 
Benoît St-Jean 
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean 
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux 
Pinterest: benoitstjean 
IRC: lamneth 
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com 
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

  From: Dimitris Chloupis 
 To: Pharo Development List  
 Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 7:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
   
Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in 
Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, 
and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern 
implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at 
all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess 
who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever.  Why ? Do we 
just fork and forget about them ? 

Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is 
hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, 
because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside 
their comfort zone. Personally  I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo 
to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid 
myself, I belong to a tiny minority. 

I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very 
uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at 
some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont happen 
for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its failure 
to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and more to 
do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support plus of 
course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak and older 
Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would removed code 
that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have 
a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo 
is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with 
modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core.

And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving. 

I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual 
memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now I 
learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , 
templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of 
greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK etc). In 20 years 
C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly than Pharo but far, far 
better . Did we stop calling it C++ ? 

I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the end 
we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I know people 
rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to begineers viewing 
this mailing that for me and many others: 

Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation 
that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it.   


 Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo then it 
makes more sense to call it SciPharo. 

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert  wrote:

  +100
 
 On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
  
 Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
 
     - First because we make it to free us from the past. 
 
     - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do 
not discard Pharo because
 
                 - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in 
team"
                 - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
      

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in
Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by
this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a
modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no
mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week
before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website
whatsoever.  Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ?

Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk
is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with
Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like
going outside their comfort zone. Personally  I am fine with that but this
is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the
box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority.

I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very
uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at
some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont
happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and
its failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the
language and more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third
party tool support plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most
likely a ton of Squeak and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo
because none sane enough would removed code that has stood the test of
time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have a tiny sense or
realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo is because is
a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with modern
technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core.

And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving.

I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language,
manual memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries
(MFC). Now I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems
(see auto , templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers),
vast array of greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK
etc). In 20 years C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly
than Pharo but far, far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ?

I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the
end we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I
know people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to
begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others:




*Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern
implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and
pays credit to it.   *
 Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo
then it makes more sense to call it SciPharo.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert 
wrote:

> +100
>
>
> On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
>
> Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
>
> - First because we make it to free us from the past.
>
> - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90
> do not discard Pharo because
>
> - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well
> in team"
> - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
> - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
> - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10
> min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
> - I did not get how you work in team
> - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
> - "Smalltalk is monolithic"
> - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside
> world" a guy organising OOPSLA
> - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes
> en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas
> etre si super que cela"
>
> I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
> I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can
> show that they are wrong.
> There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
> No more no less.
>
> So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.
>
> So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and
> the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
> There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk
> to exist in 2050.
> The future is much more important that the history.
>
> You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add
> to cross the street to fetch water.
>
>
>
>
> left blank on purpose
>
>
>
> Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>
> Stef,
>
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
>
> You probably leave in a protected environment but 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Volkert]

+100

On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:

Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk

- First because we make it to free us from the past.

- In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 
90 do not discard Pharo because


- "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work 
well in team"

- "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
- "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
- "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 
10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"

- I did not get how you work in team
- "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
- "Smalltalk is monolithic"
- "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the 
outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA
- "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu 
programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas

etre si super que cela"

I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we 
can show that they are wrong.

There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
No more no less.

So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.

So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: 
and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for 
Smalltalk to exist in 2050.

The future is much more important that the history.

You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you 
add to cross the street to fetch water.






left blank on purpose



Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :

Stef,

On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:

You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in 
the same.

Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving 
our language and do node.js.

Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. 
I can tell you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would 
be a good opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and 
visibility of our system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do 
something.

Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want 
to stay with old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an 
asshole that does not want to

promote smalltalk.


I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk 
name.  I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I 
want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as 
the equating it with cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why 
don't you address my points about older programming languages whose 
names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?



I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I 
admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing 
and supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep 
quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. 
 And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.


And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning 
are important, because to understand each other we should call a 
spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this 
thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away 
from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.



Stef

Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :



On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:



SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet
another split?

Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
peace. Yes this looks like a
smart move.
There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
about ruby and swift)
so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of
object-oriented programming!!


When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the 
community.  I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses 
Smalltalk but wants to distance itself.  It feels like theft or 
massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a 
complete lack of gratitude.


C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of 
low-level imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no 
one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.


Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate 
and identify the system as different, not ar

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Esteban Lorenzano]

> On 06 Mar 2016, at 10:50, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Instead of spending a sh*tload of bytes arguing about this nonsense, let's 
> move on to do some coding...

Sorry, but this is the only reasonable thing I can rescue from this whole 
thread. 
The same discussion arises every year once or twice and is always same result: 
nothing, except people getting angry and trolling in every possible direction… 
we will *never* reach an agreement here because is a subjective matter. Is that 
a reason to zealot about? No (and take into account I’m referring to all 
positions here, not just one side or another).

So I will ask *again* too calm down and let’s talk about what is really 
important? This thread has now 44 mails (45 with this now)… of those, just the 
first mail had something to do with the original purpose. 

Stay calm, stay cool… we are all big persons with strong opinions that deserves 
respect. But we are here to put that positions aside and to discuss about what 
we can do together… they can be great of dust, you decide. 

Esteban

ps: if it helps, consider this thread as “moderated: not constructive” :)

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

I do not know in which world you live. You are probably not exposed to 
students and
to technology stack, techno center, hackaton and other place were 
developers gather and hack.

You probably use Smalltalk for your hobby and this is great.
I'm selling Pharo to industry and programmers and the competition is real.

I'm sad because you did not get anything that I'm said. Sorry but I will 
not continue this thread.

Now you will not force us to market Pharo the way it should.

If you are not happy, put money on the consortium and come to talk to us 
but you will be disappointed

because the complete board is thinking the same.
We are marketing our future.

Now I will ask to be ban from this list such recurrent discussions. Why 
because we all lose time and you make me
losing a lot of energy and frankly I would be you I would prefer that 
Stephane Ducasse, the Great Energizer
is focusing on producing cool videos, new books or whatever instead of 
talking about this "pharo is smalltalk" shit.


Yes you see I spent 14 hours to go to discuss with didier and we pushed 
the numerical method book (that I reviewed
in the past several times), with serge we edited the new version of the 
book, we patiently collected
all the libraries over the years, we are fighting with dependencies and 
more.
So it gives the right to do what we want and if you are not happy, I'm 
sorry about it but this is like that!


Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev]

--- Begin Message ---
+1000 - 
Benoît St-Jean 
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean 
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux 
Pinterest: benoitstjean 
IRC: lamneth 
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com 
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

  From: Esteban Lorenzano 
 To: Pharo Development List  
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome 
 Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2016 5:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
   
frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense. 

first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who 
has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier… what is the 
problem? 
second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a 
different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to 
the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo. 

So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important?

cheers,
Esteban


> On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with 
> Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big 
> thanks*** Didier.
> 
> We would like to do several things:
> 
>    - Work on "Hows to"
>      The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the 
>math is too large :)
>    so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
>            - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
> 
>    - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
>    This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by 
>combining two of the
>    objects available in SciPharo.
>        Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can 
>plug other distribution for having
>        controlled random number.
> 
>    - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
>    Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
>    So tell us :)
> 
>            Hernan ??
>            Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
>            Vincent: covariance? CPA?
>            Philippe: times series
>            Serge R frames?
>            Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
> 
>    - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September 
>with a recording session.
>    Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
> 
>    - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a 
>better cover and title :)
> 
> 
> Stef
> 
> 



  --- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev]

--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to say Stéphane, but those arguments are just as funny as wrong.
You know what?  I can copy some code from Smalltalk/X, Dolphin Smalltalk, 
VisualAge, ObjectStudio, VisualWorks, ObjectWorks, Smalltalk MT, Squeak, VSE, 
and many others and save it in Pharo and *it will compile* !!
So I guess Pharo is Smalltalk.
It's not because you renamed the workspace to Playground that it's not 
Smalltalk!
If it's not Smalltalk, tell me what it is!
And, btw, I can also take some Pharo code and import it in all the dialects 
mentionned above.  So I guess Pharo, like it or not, with all the fancy names 
and *we don't want no fucking backward compatibility and we try to distance 
ourselves as far as possible from all Smalltalks* is still Smalltalk.
Instead of spending a sh*tload of bytes arguing about this nonsense, let's move 
on to do some coding...
In Pharo, in Squeak, in Dolphin, in VAST, in VW, in ObjectStudio, in Amber in 
whatever...
I'm a Smalltalker : I don't give a f**k about the dialect.
I love Smalltalk, whatever the dialect.


 - 
Benoît St-Jean 
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean 
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux 
Pinterest: benoitstjean 
IRC: lamneth 
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com 
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

  From: stepharo 
 To: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org 
 Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 3:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
   
 Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
 
     - First because we make it to free us from the past. 
 
     - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do 
not discard Pharo because
 
                 - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in 
team"
                 - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
                 - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
                 - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to 
boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
                 - I did not get how you work in team
                 - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
                 - "Smalltalk is monolithic"
                 - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside 
world" a guy organising OOPSLA
                 - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en 
bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas 
                 etre si super que cela"
 
 I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. 
 I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can 
show that they are wrong. 
 There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. 
 No more no less. 
 
 So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. 
 
 So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the 
future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. 
 There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to 
exist in 2050.
 The future is much more important that the history. 
 
 You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to 
cross the street to fetch water. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 left blank on purpose
 
 
 
 Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
  
 
Stef, 
 On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
 
  
  
 You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. 
 Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
 Do you think that people do not know how to count? 
 In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than 
     python, java, c#, lua, ...
 
 Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language 
and do node.js.
 Seriously. 
 Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell 
you.
 I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
opportunity. 
 Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of 
our system
 I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. 
 Afterall I may be wrong. 
 Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with 
old friends
 just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that 
does not want to 
 promote smalltalk. 
 
  I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I 
am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false 
assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  
Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older 
programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? 
  
  I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this 
community.  But th

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

People having problems to be solved using numqi ou abacus
can you register to the mailing list and that we can continue working there?
And collecting your needs?

Stef

Le 2/3/16 14:17, stepharo a écrit :

Hi guys

I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions 
with Serge Stinckwich.
Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big 
thanks*** Didier.


We would like to do several things:

- Work on "Hows to"
  The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us 
and the math is too large :)

 so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
- histomgram (simple, based on distribution)

- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
This morning we started to implement a 
ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the

objects available in SciPharo.
Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that 
we can plug other distribution for having

controlled random number.

- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this 
mail :)

Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
So tell us :)

Hernan ??
Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
Vincent: covariance? CPA?
Philippe: times series
Serge R frames?
Sami: Better random number and various distributions?

- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in 
September with a recording session.

Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.

- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) 
with a better cover and title :)



Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk

- First because we make it to free us from the past.

- In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 
90 do not discard Pharo because


- "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work 
well in team"

- "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
- "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
- "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 
min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"

- I did not get how you work in team
- "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
- "Smalltalk is monolithic"
- "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the 
outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA
- "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu 
programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas

etre si super que cela"

I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we 
can show that they are wrong.

There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
No more no less.

So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.

So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and 
the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk 
to exist in 2050.

The future is much more important that the history.

You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you 
add to cross the street to fetch water.






left blank on purpose



Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :

Stef,

On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:

You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in 
the same.

Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving 
our language and do node.js.

Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I 
can tell you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be 
a good opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and 
visibility of our system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do 
something.

Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to 
stay with old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an 
asshole that does not want to

promote smalltalk.


I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk 
name.  I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I 
want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as 
the equating it with cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why 
don't you address my points about older programming languages whose 
names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?



I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I 
admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing 
and supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep 
quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. 
 And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.


And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning 
are important, because to understand each other we should call a 
spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this 
thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away 
from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.



Stef

Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :



On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:



SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another
split?

Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
peace. Yes this looks like a
smart move.
There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
about ruby and swift)
so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of
object-oriented programming!!


When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the 
community.  I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses 
Smalltalk but wants to distance itself.  It feels like theft or 
massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete 
lack of gratitude.


C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of 
low-level imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no 
one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.


Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate 
and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not 
hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltal

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

left blank on purpose



Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :

Stef,

On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo > wrote:


You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in 
the same.

Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
language and do node.js.

Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I 
can tell you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be 
a good opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and 
visibility of our system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do 
something.

Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to 
stay with old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an 
asshole that does not want to

promote smalltalk.


I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk 
name.  I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want 
to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the 
equating it with cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you 
address my points about older programming languages whose 
names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?



I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I 
admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing 
and supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep 
quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. 
 And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.


And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a 
spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing 
called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. 
 Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.



Stef

Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :



On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo > wrote:




SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another
split?

Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
peace. Yes this looks like a
smart move.
There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
about ruby and swift)
so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
programming!!


When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the 
community.  I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses 
Smalltalk but wants to distance itself.  It feels like theft or 
massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete 
lack of gratitude.


C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of 
low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no 
one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.


Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and 
identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. 
Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why 
anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive 
influence is beyond me.


Offended,
Eliot

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 03/05/2016 08:33 PM, Eliot Miranda wrote:

Jimmie,


On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:

On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:

On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:

Stef,


On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:

You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
 python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language 
and do node.js.
Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell 
you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our 
system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with 
old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that 
does not want to
promote smalltalk.

I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I 
am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false 
assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  
Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older 
programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?


I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this 
community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny Pharo 
is Smalltalk.

And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and 
because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I 
will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  
Pharo is the real thing.

Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community 
that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was 
started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted 
in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.

If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
factually correct (it is BTW).

We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free 
of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger 
future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and 
acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.

Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:

   http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo

But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.

The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
-80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".

As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
(which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
*just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
*subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
communities.)

cheers -ben

I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What 
persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is 
simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of 
Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the 
directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such 
ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights 
to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What 
if Squeak diverges in a different directi

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Eliot Miranda]

Jimmie,

>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
>> 
>> On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
 On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
 
 Stef,
 
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the 
> same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
> python, java, c#, lua, ...
> 
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
> tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a 
> good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility 
> of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole 
> that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.
 I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. 
  I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute 
 false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with 
 cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points 
 about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived 
 negatively?
 
 
 I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire 
 and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and 
 supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about 
 something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing 
 is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
 
 And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
 important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a 
 spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called 
 Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is 
 inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak 
>>> community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another 
>>> vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision 
>>> that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>> 
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
>>> innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
>>> factually correct (it is BTW).
>>> 
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be 
>>> free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a 
>>> larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely 
>>> respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not 
>>> without reason.
>>> 
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>> 
>>>   http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>> 
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>> 
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>> 
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>> 
>> cheers -ben
> 
> I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What 
> persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is 
> simply this. All of the Smalltalks above we

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Eliot Miranda]

Sven,

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman  wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
>>> 
 On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
 
 Stef,
 
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the 
> same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>   python, java, c#, lua, ...
> 
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
> tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a 
> good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility 
> of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole 
> that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.
 
 I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. 
 I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute 
 false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with 
 cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points 
 about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived 
 negatively?
 
 
 I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire 
 and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and 
 supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about 
 something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing 
 is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
 
 And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
 important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a 
 spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called 
 Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is 
 inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.
>>> 
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak 
>>> community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another 
>>> vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision 
>>> that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>> 
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
>>> innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
>>> factually correct (it is BTW).
>>> 
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be 
>>> free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a 
>>> larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely 
>>> respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not 
>>> without reason.
>>> 
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>> 
>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>> 
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>> 
>> 
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>> 
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>> 
>> cheers -ben
> 
> Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?

That's not at all what I read Ben as suggesting.  See below...

> 
> Come on, let's be serious.
> 
> (BTW, this

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:

On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:

Stef,

On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:


You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
 python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language 
and do node.js.
Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell 
you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our 
system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with 
old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that 
does not want to
promote smalltalk.

I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I 
am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false 
assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  
Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older 
programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?


I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this 
community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny Pharo 
is Smalltalk.

And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and 
because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I 
will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  
Pharo is the real thing.

Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community 
that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was 
started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted 
in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.

If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
factually correct (it is BTW).

We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free 
of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger 
future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and 
acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.

Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:

   http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo

But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.


The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
-80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".

As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
(which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
*just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
*subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
communities.)

cheers -ben


I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. 
What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument 
pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the 
creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name 
Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators 
of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage 
or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take 
Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a 
different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the 
name of Smalltalk.


Caution says no. Pharo does

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman  wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
>>>
 On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:

 Stef,

 On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:

> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the 
> same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>python, java, c#, lua, ...
>
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
> tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a 
> good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility 
> of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole 
> that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.

 I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. 
 I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute 
 false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with 
 cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points 
 about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived 
 negatively?


 I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire 
 and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and 
 supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about 
 something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing 
 is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.

 And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
 important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a 
 spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called 
 Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is 
 inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.
>>>
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak 
>>> community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another 
>>> vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision 
>>> that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>>
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
>>> innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
>>> factually correct (it is BTW).
>>>
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be 
>>> free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a 
>>> larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely 
>>> respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not 
>>> without reason.
>>>
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>>
>>>  http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>>
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>>
>>
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>>
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>>
>> cheers -ben
>
> Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?
>
> Come on, let's be serious.
>
> (BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external 
> library, which is entirely 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Stef,
>>> 
>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
>>> 
 You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the 
 same.
 Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
 Do you think that people do not know how to count?
 In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...
 
 Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
 language and do node.js.
 Seriously.
 Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
 tell you.
 I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a 
 good opportunity.
 Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility 
 of our system
 I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
 Afterall I may be wrong.
 Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
 with old friends
 just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole 
 that does not want to
 promote smalltalk.
>>> 
>>> I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. 
>>> I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute 
>>> false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with 
>>> cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points 
>>> about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived 
>>> negatively?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
>>> respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting 
>>> this community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
>>> profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny 
>>> Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>> 
>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
>>> important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, 
>>> and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, 
>>> and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by 
>>> Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.
>> 
>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak 
>> community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another 
>> vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision 
>> that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>> 
>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
>> innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
>> factually correct (it is BTW).
>> 
>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be 
>> free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a 
>> larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely 
>> respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not 
>> without reason.
>> 
>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>> 
>>  http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>> 
>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
> 
> 
> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
> -80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
> 
> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
> stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
> who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
> *just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
> *subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
> communities.)
> 
> cheers -ben

Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?

Come on, let's be serious.

(BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external 
library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not 
us).

What makes Pharo different is this: you (and so many others) came to this 
community as a str

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Laszlo Zsolt Kiss]

Hello.

NumSt is good name, maybe ☺

Best regards

Laszlo Zsolt
2016.03.05. 16:34 ezt írta ("Serge Stinckwich" ):

> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> >  wrote:
> >> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
> 
>  I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>  better in my opinion
>  PhaNum is also okay to me.
> 
> >>>
> >>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
> >>
> >> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
> >
> > Just a random line of thought...
> > PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
> > --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>
> Nice !
>
> Any other ideas ?
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Ben Coman]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
>>
>> Stef,
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
>>
>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>
>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
>>> language and do node.js.
>>> Seriously.
>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
>>> tell you.
>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
>>> opportunity.
>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of 
>>> our system
>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
>>> with old friends
>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole 
>>> that does not want to
>>> promote smalltalk.
>>
>> I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  
>> I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute 
>> false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with 
>> cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points 
>> about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived 
>> negatively?
>>
>>
>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
>> respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting 
>> this community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
>> profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny 
>> Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>
>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
>> important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, 
>> and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, 
>> and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by 
>> Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.
>
> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community 
> that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo 
> was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly 
> rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>
> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
> innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
> factually correct (it is BTW).
>
> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be 
> free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a 
> larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely 
> respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not 
> without reason.
>
> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>
>   http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>
> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.


The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
-80.   Some of these were distinctly different from the last.  So
Smalltalk was an *evolving* system.  Why can't it be so again!?  and
be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".

As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
(which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
stalwarts without being constrained by the past.  As much as we might
want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
who scratches beneath the surface and they  end up thinking "Oh its
*just* Smalltalk" anyway.  So this remains the "elephant in the room",
*subtly* undermining of our marketing.  Its the sort of weakness that
can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
communities.)

cheers -ben


>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :


 On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:

> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
 Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes 
 this looks like a
 smart move.
 There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby 
 and swift)
 s

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
> 
> Stef,
> 
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. 
>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>> Do you think that people do not know how to count? 
>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than 
>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>> 
>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
>> language and do node.js.
>> Seriously. 
>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
>> tell you.
>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
>> opportunity. 
>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of 
>> our system
>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. 
>> Afterall I may be wrong. 
>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
>> with old friends
>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that 
>> does not want to 
>> promote smalltalk. 
> 
> I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I 
> am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false 
> assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  
> Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older 
> programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
> 
> 
> I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
> respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this 
> community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
> profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny Pharo 
> is Smalltalk.
> 
> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
> important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, 
> and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, 
> and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by 
> Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing.

Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community 
that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was 
started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted 
in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.

If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so 
innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like 
factually correct (it is BTW).

We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free 
of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger 
future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and 
acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.

Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:

  http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo

But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.

>> Stef
>> 
>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>>> 
 SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
 What is so much pharo specific in this library?
 Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes 
>>> this looks like a 
>>> smart move. 
>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby 
>>> and swift)
>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented 
>>> programming!!
>>> 
>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.  
>>> I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to 
>>> distance itself.  It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the 
>>> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>> 
>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level 
>>> imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to 
>>> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>> 
>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and 
>>> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  Further, 
>>> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why anyone would be 
>>> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>> 
>>> Offended,
>>> Eliot

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Eliot Miranda]

Stef,

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. 
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count? 
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than 
> python, java, c#, lua, ...
> 
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously. 
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell 
> you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
> opportunity. 
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of 
> our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. 
> Afterall I may be wrong. 
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay 
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that 
> does not want to 
> promote smalltalk. 

I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I 
am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false 
assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  
Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older 
programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?


I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this 
community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny Pharo 
is Smalltalk.

And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and 
because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I 
will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  
Pharo is the real thing.

> Stef
> 
> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>>> 
 SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
 What is so much pharo specific in this library?
 Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes 
>>> this looks like a 
>>> smart move. 
>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby 
>>> and swift)
>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented 
>>> programming!!
>> 
>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.  I 
>> find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to 
>> distance itself.  It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the 
>> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>> 
>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level 
>> imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to rename 
>> Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>> 
>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and 
>> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  Further, 
>> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why anyone would be 
>> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>> 
>> Offended,
>> Eliot
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Ben Coman]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Ben Coman  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Serge Stinckwich
>  wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>>  wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
  wrote:
>
> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
>>
>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>> better in my opinion
>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>
>
> SciSmalltalk is ugly.

 I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>>
>>> Just a random line of thought...
>>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>
>> Nice !
>>
>> Any other ideas ?
>
> Well, since you asked...  Another approach is to consider who the
> biggest competitor is - the one you'd like to be compared to and would
> like to beat. Maybe its Julia(?), which currently got some buzz.  From
> a cursory skim, its multiple dispatch, dynamic typing and Scheme &
> Common Lisp influences [1] somewhat echoes Smalltalk.   We have
> similar facility as [2] to already inspect method bytecode and I
> reckon we might(?) be able to provide a view of the JITed machine code
> and might(?) be possible someday be able to hand-tune that machine
> code, which would be good to promote our system as a similar
> one-stop-shop as described in [2].
>
> So... along the philosophy that when a fight is starting, you should
> *first* punch the *biggest* guy on the nose... you could be
> provocative and name it Gaston or Fatou [3], except then I discover
> the Julia name apparently has nothing to do with Julia Sets [4].
> So maybe Julia --> Juliet --> Romeo --> { Romiio, Romiea, Romiia,
> Rhomia }  -- these being a selection of variations with high
> goognique**.  However, on the one hand, we'd need to gain the
> credibility to back this up, but on the other hand, its not just about
> punching some on the nose... such naming can be aspirational.  The
> research presented by Jim Collins in"Good To Great" advises its quite
> beneficial to have an adversary you can compete against in a
> *friendly* way.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language)
> [2] http://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-betting-on-julia.html
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_set
> [4] 
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29290780/what-does-the-name-of-julia-the-programming-language-refer-to
>
> ** My this instant newly contrived portmanteau for "google unique".

And btw, it might be good to pick the eyes out of this discussion on
Julia for points where do (or will) align and use similar language to
promote our Numqi/Abacii system.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7109982

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Ben Coman]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
>
>
>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
>> A calculating tool !
>
> Good!

But "abacus" --> 18,000,000 results, is not goognique.

Maybe a variation "abacii" --> 2,800 results, as in "more than one
calculating tool".

cheers -ben

>>
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>>  wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
  wrote:
>
> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
>>
>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>> better in my opinion
>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>
> SciSmalltalk is ugly.

 I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>>
>>> Just a random line of thought...
>>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>>>
> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
> SciSmalltalk is just:
> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)

 SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
 We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.

 --
 Serge Stinckwich
 UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
 Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
 http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Ben Coman]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Serge Stinckwich
 wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>  wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>  wrote:

 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
>
> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> better in my opinion
> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>

 SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>
> Nice !
>
> Any other ideas ?

Well, since you asked...  Another approach is to consider who the
biggest competitor is - the one you'd like to be compared to and would
like to beat. Maybe its Julia(?), which currently got some buzz.  From
a cursory skim, its multiple dispatch, dynamic typing and Scheme &
Common Lisp influences [1] somewhat echoes Smalltalk.   We have
similar facility as [2] to already inspect method bytecode and I
reckon we might(?) be able to provide a view of the JITed machine code
and might(?) be possible someday be able to hand-tune that machine
code, which would be good to promote our system as a similar
one-stop-shop as described in [2].

So... along the philosophy that when a fight is starting, you should
*first* punch the *biggest* guy on the nose... you could be
provocative and name it Gaston or Fatou [3], except then I discover
the Julia name apparently has nothing to do with Julia Sets [4].
So maybe Julia --> Juliet --> Romeo --> { Romiio, Romiea, Romiia,
Rhomia }  -- these being a selection of variations with high
goognique**.  However, on the one hand, we'd need to gain the
credibility to back this up, but on the other hand, its not just about
punching some on the nose... such naming can be aspirational.  The
research presented by Jim Collins in"Good To Great" advises its quite
beneficial to have an adversary you can compete against in a
*friendly* way.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language)
[2] http://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-betting-on-julia.html
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_set
[4] 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29290780/what-does-the-name-of-julia-the-programming-language-refer-to

** My this instant newly contrived portmanteau for "google unique".

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Eliot Miranda]

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich  
> wrote:
> 
> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
> A calculating tool !

Good!

> 
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>  wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>  wrote:
 
 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
> 
> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> better in my opinion
> PhaNum is also okay to me.
 
 SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>> 
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>> 
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>> 
>> cheers -ben
>> 
 Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
 SciSmalltalk is just:
 - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
 - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>> 
>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk  wrote:
> Or we can use the name from other languages like Liczydło in Polish :)

I have some Polish ancestors, but I'm not sure people will remember
the name of the project ;-)

>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
>> A calculating tool !
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>>  wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
  wrote:
>
> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
>>
>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>> better in my opinion
>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>
>
> SciSmalltalk is ugly.

 I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>>
>>> Just a random line of thought...
>>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>>>
> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
> SciSmalltalk is just:
> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)

 SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
 We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.

 --
 Serge Stinckwich
 UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
 Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
 http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>
>



-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Yuriy Tymchuk]

Or we can use the name from other languages like Liczydło in Polish :)

> On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
> A calculating tool !
> 
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>  wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>  wrote:
 
 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
> 
> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> better in my opinion
> PhaNum is also okay to me.
> 
 
 SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>> 
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>> 
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>> 
>> cheers -ben
>> 
 Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
 SciSmalltalk is just:
 - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
 - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>> 
>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
> A calculating tool !

I like that one (BTW, thanks for doing this project, Serge & Co, these higher 
level, domain specific projects are really very important)

> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>  wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>  wrote:
 
 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
> 
> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> better in my opinion
> PhaNum is also okay to me.
> 
 
 SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>> 
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>> 
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>> 
>> cheers -ben
>> 
 Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
 SciSmalltalk is just:
 - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
 - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>> 
>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

I was thinking as this name : Abacus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
A calculating tool !

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>  wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :

 I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
 better in my opinion
 PhaNum is also okay to me.

>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>
>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>
> Just a random line of thought...
> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>
> cheers -ben
>
>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>
>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>



-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>  wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :

 I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
 better in my opinion
 PhaNum is also okay to me.

>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>
>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>
> Just a random line of thought...
> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

Nice !

Any other ideas ?

-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Ben Coman]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
 wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>  wrote:
>>
>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
>>>
>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>> better in my opinion
>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>
>>
>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>
> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !

Just a random line of thought...
PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
--> numqi "An energy around numbers"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

cheers -ben

>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>
> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Esteban Lorenzano]

frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense. 

first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who 
has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier… what is the 
problem? 
second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a 
different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to 
the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo. 

So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important?

cheers,
Esteban


> On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with 
> Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big 
> thanks*** Didier.
> 
> We would like to do several things:
> 
>- Work on "Hows to"
>  The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the 
> math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
>- histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
> 
>- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
>This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by 
> combining two of the
>objects available in SciPharo.
>Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can 
> plug other distribution for having
>controlled random number.
> 
>- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
>Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
>So tell us :)
> 
>Hernan ??
>Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
>Vincent: covariance? CPA?
>Philippe: times series
>Serge R frames?
>Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
> 
>- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September 
> with a recording session.
>Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
> 
>- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a 
> better cover and title :)
> 
> 
> Stef
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[S Krish]

Emotional arguments do not change facts.

Contributions of 1000's from 1970's make all of programming languages what
they are. Acknowledgement of heritage period. Carry on with the great work,
which future generations will acknowledge, even more the contributions of
all around Pharo around today, I am sure.


On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:40 PM, stepharo  wrote:

> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the
> same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can
> tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a
> good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility
> of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole
> that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.
>
>
> Stef
>
> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>
>>
>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>
>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
>> this looks like a
>> smart move.
>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
>> and swift)
>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
>> programming!!
>>
>
> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
> I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
> distance itself.  It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>
> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
> imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to
> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>
> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  Further,
> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why anyone would be
> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>
> Offended,
> Eliot
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[S Krish]

+1

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Eliot Miranda 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>
>>
>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>
>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
>> this looks like a
>> smart move.
>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
>> and swift)
>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
>> programming!!
>>
>
> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
> I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
> distance itself.  It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>
> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
> imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to
> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>
> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  Further,
> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why anyone would be
> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>
> Offended,
> Eliot
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the 
same.

Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our 
language and do node.js.

Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can 
tell you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a 
good opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility 
of our system

I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to 
stay with old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole 
that does not want to

promote smalltalk.


Stef

Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :



On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo > wrote:




SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?

Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
peace. Yes this looks like a
smart move.
There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
about ruby and swift)
so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
programming!!


When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the 
community.  I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses 
Smalltalk but wants to distance itself.  It feels like theft or 
massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete 
lack of gratitude.


C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level 
imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to 
rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.


Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and 
identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  
Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why 
anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive 
influence is beyond me.


Offended,
Eliot

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Eliot Miranda]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo  wrote:

>
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
> this looks like a
> smart move.
> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
> and swift)
> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
> programming!!
>

When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
distance itself.  It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.

C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to
rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.

Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  Further,
Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why anyone would be
ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.

Offended,
Eliot

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Eliot Miranda]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <
pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> wrote:

>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Benoit St-Jean 
> To: Pharo Development List 
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:27:45 + (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical
> Methods in Smalltalk?
>
> That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will
> always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere!
>
> The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere!
>

+1


>
> -
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>
>
> ----------
> *From:* Serge Stinckwich 
> *To:* Pharo Development List 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>  wrote:
> > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> > What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> We can think of a more neutral name.
> Any idea for a new name ?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
 wrote:
>
> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :
>>
>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>> better in my opinion
>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>
>
> SciSmalltalk is ugly.

I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !

> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
> SciSmalltalk is just:
> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)

SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.

-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

We are changing the code and removing mistakes (except if you prefer to 
have double initialization for example).

We are maintaining the book and we will produce a new.
So focus on the good energy and our world will get much better.


Le 4/3/16 08:32, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev a écrit :

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[stepharo]

SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. 
Yes this looks like a

smart move.
There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about 
ruby and swift)
so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented 
programming!!




Stef


2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich 
mailto:serge.stinckw...@gmail.com>>:


On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba mailto:tu...@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
> This is great news!
>
> I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.

Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time
series.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Nicolas Cellier]

2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel :

> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> better in my opinion
> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>
>
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
SciSmalltalk is just:
- an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
- a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)

If you name the Metacello configuration SciPharo, it's OK,
because it does not really exclude any goodwill contributing from another
Smalltalk flavour.

If you name the repositories SciPharo, you start tainting a bit more... But
well.



> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier <
> nicolas.cellier.aka.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich :
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:
>> > This is great news!
>> >
>> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>>
>> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Alexandre Bergel]

I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much better in 
my opinion
PhaNum is also okay to me. 

Alexandre
-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



> On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier 
>  wrote:
> 
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
> 
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich  >:
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba  > wrote:
> > This is great news!
> >
> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
> 
> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
> 
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Nicolas Cellier]

Could you use a metacello configuration named SciPharo composed of packaged
that you would pick from a more neutral repository?

2016-03-04 8:28 GMT+01:00 Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <
pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>:

>
>
> -- Message transféré --
> From: Benoit St-Jean 
> To: Pharo Development List 
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:27:45 + (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical
> Methods in Smalltalk?
>
> That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will
> always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere!
>
> The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere!
>
> -
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>
>
> ------
> *From:* Serge Stinckwich 
> *To:* Pharo Development List 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>  wrote:
> > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> > What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> We can think of a more neutral name.
> Any idea for a new name ?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev]

--- Begin Message ---
Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical 
Methods in Smalltalk?
That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will 
always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere!
The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere!
 - 
Benoît St-Jean 
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean 
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux 
Pinterest: benoitstjean 
IRC: lamneth 
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com 
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

  From: Serge Stinckwich 
 To: Pharo Development List  
 Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
   
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
 wrote:
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?

We can think of a more neutral name.
Any idea for a new name ?

Regards,
-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/



  --- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
 wrote:
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?

We can think of a more neutral name.
Any idea for a new name ?

Regards,
-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Paul DeBruicker]

+1


Nicolas Cellier wrote
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
> 
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <

> serge.stinckwich@

> >:
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <

> tudor@

> > wrote:
>> > This is great news!
>> >
>> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>>
>> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Call-about-Numerical-Methods-in-Pharo-tp4881998p4882033.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Nicolas Cellier]

SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?

2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich :

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:
> > This is great news!
> >
> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>
> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Serge Stinckwich]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:
> This is great news!
>
> I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.

Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.

-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Tudor Girba]

This is great news!

I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.

Cheers,
Doru



> On Mar 2, 2016, at 2:33 PM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with 
> Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big 
> thanks*** Didier.
> 
> We would like to do several things:
> 
>- Work on "Hows to"
>  The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the 
> math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
>- histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
> 
>- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
>This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by 
> combining two of the
>objects available in SciPharo.
>Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can 
> plug other distribution for having
>controlled random number.
> 
>- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
>Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
>So tell us :)
> 
>Hernan ??
>Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
>Vincent: covariance? CPA?
>Philippe: times series
>Serge R frames?
>Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
> 
>- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September 
> with a recording session.
>Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
> 
>- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a 
> better cover and title :)
> 
> 
> Stef
> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Obvious things are difficult to teach."