Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 6 Nov 2002, at 3:46, Dave P wrote: And the question is Is Wolfgang able to treat DD fairly in light of his sense that they are seemingly ignoring his perceived authority? This something I cannot let by. There are always two sides to a authority - a moral and and a legal one. One has a moral authority when the situation is such that people want to abide by whatever decision is taken by you. I have no illusions in this respect - some people have gone clearly on record (e.g. Richard Zidlicky) to tell that they do not feel that I have such an authority. I can perfectly live with that. It also means that, in the eyes of these people I certainly don't have a perceived (nice turn of phrase, that) authority. The other is a legal authority, where a situation exists that you cannot do something (legally) without someone's authorization. Taking things out of a shop, for example - you may only do that if the shop owner agrees. It so happens that I am vested with that kind of authority, since TT delegated to me the power to receive requestes from resellers and see to it that official versions of SMSQ/E come from me. Now, as to the question of whether I am able to treat them fairly after they have seemingly ignored my percevied authority. The problem here is that they ignored the licence holder's legal rights. And they ignored my attempts to find you whether they are really ignoring this. Am I still able to treat them fairly? I hope so. I also must go on record to say that I think that I treated them fairly until now. What I can undertake (instead of expressing hopes) is that, if they ask to become a reseller, this will be examined in just the way as I described in many an earlier email. If they become a reseller, they WILL get official versions of SMSQ/E from me. Is that fair enough? Which is what was expected to happen. The license, while I accept it entirely, isn't one that can effectively discourage this. No licence can discourage people not to violate it. Look at M$ - they have about the most strict licences in the world, and still their software is pirated in the millions. What happened here, is that people were actually given a say in the matter, i.e. the drafting of the licence - and then, not satisfied at not having got what they wanted, they decided to boycott everything. This, at least is the way I perceive things. The problem is that Wolfgang expects the DD sales to result in a payment to him of 10 Euros per copy sold, No, not to me, but to TT - I just pass the money over. but he doesn't know how many licenses they already have unsold, so there is no simple resolution without facts. unsold :-))) as to the rest: yes, this is entirely true - BUT the presumption is that DD have sold Q60s with SMSQ/E - after all, this is the way the machine has always been sold. If only they had simply told me - we have not sold one single machine with SMSQ/E. I do think it is vital to have someone keep the different versions of SMSQ/E in step, and I think Wolfgang is technically capable. Thanks fo the technically My worry is that this action has polarised and marginalised DD into a position where they will feel unwilling to co-operate with him. Excuse me, but what cooperation? DD and I don't HAVE TO cooperate (even though, still, I'd like to - let me go on record for this!). If DD sell SMSQ/E as an official reseller, they will get the official versions from me. That's all the cooperation we HAVE to have and that's a cooperation I can guarantee from my side. Of course, I would prefer them telling me what more they expect of SMSQ/E, where they would like to make changes etc... If that doesn't happen, it's NOT because I'm not listening. Now, words will fly, and indignation will be expressed since we're talking about a world market for maybe 100 copies of SMSQ/E over the coming years, it's not going to be sued over, and the enforcer has no teeth. That also depends on the buyers of SMSQ/E. I for one, would not have bought a Q60 under these circumstances. If you do, knowing that you are using a pirated copy of an OS and that the people gining it to you had not right to do so, then that's your decision. So it's academic. THAT we'll see. What's the way forward from here? Good question. Other than suing them, I don't have a ready-made answer. Wolfgang
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 5 Nov 2002, at 20:07, Bill Waugh wrote: (...) There are not enough of us left that we should start an us and them war. It's true that we are a small cmmunity. But surely that doesn't mean that people should be behaving in an improper manner.? Wolfgang
Re: QRe: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 5 Nov 2002, at 19:28, Öïßâïò Ñ. Íôüêïò wrote: (...) Dennis makes a very interesting point on which nobody but DD and their customers know how many Q60 were sold WITH SMSQ/E on ROM? Thats is indeed, a very good question, to which I would have liked to have an answer MUCH earlier. observed in mailings that I exchanged with DD in the past that some got lost... NOT MINE to Derek, he acknowledge receipt of it. That was way before any of this discussion (in the timeframe that is inferred from the various emails) can it therefore be COMPLETELY unreasonable to say that DD never received Wolfgang's mailings? Sorry, but yes. Wolfgang
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 5 Nov 2002, at 16:13, Öïßâïò Ñ. Íôüêïò wrote: > 3. I and I believe > others up until now were under the impression that according to our > original "terms of purchase" we were entitled to free upgrades. That hasn't changed, has it? > That > was the idea behind QPC (where the price for an update covered mainly > Marcel's work... the fact that part of this work was done on SMSQ/E to > bring it to up to par with QPC it's totally irrelevant to the OS > itself and very relevant to what Marcel charges). To be fair, though, you could also get free upgrades for SMSQ/E on the Q60. 4. For DD (as both > Dave and Bill said) we cannot really say what really goes on until > either D. or D. (sic!) say their side of their story (as it's only > fair :-). Yes, of course it is. > However did anybody ever consider that this is not a CD > we're talking about here but an EPROM which needs to be burned and > then tested? That doesn't change anything, does it? > Do they have to provide that for free too according to > the SMSQ/E license? Are you suggesteing that they are selling the Q60 with untested software and that the user gets a test version? > My personal opinion is that they shouldn't... it's > not the same thing as copying a CD (which as we said -Dave as well as > me and others when the original license was discussed-) should be > allowed to be copied by PD libraries and even (why not) a very small > fee charged for all their trouble, shipping etc... Just let's clarify the debate and distinguish, as the licence does, between source code and compiled code. For source code, what does the licence say? quote: Any person may distribute the source code to others, provided however that the following conditions are adhered to by the person thus distributing the source : - Such a distribution must be made entirely free of charge - no fees whatsoever, for copying or the media on which the software is copied or otherwise, may be levied. The distribution of the source code must contain a copy of this licence and a clear indication that this licence must be read and agreed upon by the recipient before using the source code. - Such a distribution may only be made in either of two forms: Via a CDROM or via Email. · Via CDROM Exceptionally and only if distribution is made via CDROM, the person distributing the source code may request 3 IRCs and a blank CDROM from the recipient. All of the software, including the documentation and this licence must be distributed on the CDROM. ... unquote. That DOESN'T stop you from sending the source out to anybody, does it? As to binary, or compiled code, that may only be distributed (sold!) through resellers. > That hardly has > ANYTHING to do with the distribution of SMSQ/E and I think that > everyone would agree that the pursuit of a hobby, doesn't mean you > need to blow your money away... OK 10 EUR per new copy is blowing you money away. Then, of course, you will NEVER buy a Q40, because that costs so much more... > (Some people ie. me don't have that > much and the fact that we do love the platform doesn't mean we need to > lose money on it... For example if I ran a PD library service (which I > do in some form) and I provide SMSQ/E I should be able to charge > something for the lost time and effort. Yes, 3 IRCs. > Additionally, having to send > my SMSQ/E version back to the registrar so my buddy that wants to > check it out (even if no intention to incorporate the changes back to > the original version exists) (since no CVS in the usual form exists) > is hindering development than encouraging it. Sorry, let me again quote the licence to you quote As an exception to the prohibition of distribution of binary versions of the software other than through the resellers, you are hereby granted the right to distribute binary versions of the software to a maximum of 10 different persons (whatever the number and moment in time of the changes/additions/modifications you make), provided however that: (a) you have made a change/addition/modification to the software compared to the official version and (b) the person receiving the software from you undertakes to destroy the binary version - after 2 months of receipt thereof, - as soon as you inform such person that the version is no longer a test version but a final version, - as soon as any such change has been submitted to the registrar and accepted by him for inclusion in the official version whatever comes first. The person receiving the binaries from you must also undertake not to distribute binary versions to anybody else except yourself- , even if he/she did make any change/addition/modification to the code. Even if you make several changes/additions/modifications to the software, you may only distribute test versions to the same 10 persons maximum. unquote 5. Finally, the fact > that TT did choose (IIRC again, don't shoot if I am wrong) not to make > any money out of SMSQ/E any more but in that meeting you
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 6 Nov 2002, at 2:25, P Witte wrote: (...) it appears we may have a rebel camp that is hell-bound on doing what it pleases whatever anyone else may think. Isnt that what its all about? I fear that it is, though, perhaps not even directly from DD. As to the rest of Per's message, I couldn't agree more. Wolfgang
RE: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
Hi Geoff, In fairness to Wolfgang let it be said that this is not a new problem. I have known about it for some weeks, and you can be certain that a lot of activity has gone on in the background to try to resolve the situation. It seems that a certian number of people knew about the problem, while the rest of us didn't. It was therefore quite easy to assume that nothing had been done etc, because Wolfgang didn't mention anyhting in his original email. Some time ago D D approached me about distributing some Just Words! programs with the Q60. I gave a fairly lengthy reply but never heard anything further. This I find unbusinesslike and discourteous. I do believe I read about your feeling on this matter in QL TOADY ! Cheers, Norman. - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
Re: [ql-users] Development
Duly noted Norman!! Forgot about that; it must be a celtic thing..:-)) Darren Branagh Director, Wicklow Web Centre Limited Computer Training, Web Design, Repairs sales Upgrades. Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.wwc.ie - Original Message - From: Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:22 AM Subject: RE: [ql-users] Development Hey Darren, don't forget us Scots - we like them, too !!! Regards, norman. - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - -Original Message- From: Darren Branagh [mailto:darrenb;esatlink.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] Development Marcel wrote:- For years now there have been jokes flying between us over how much Irishmen and Welshmen like sheep. This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
RE: [ql-users] Development
Cheers Darren, Puts a whole new meaning tio 'animal lovers' doesn't it :o) I suggest we stop here before it gets too far out of hand ... regards, norman. - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - -Original Message- From: Darren Branagh [mailto:darrenb;esatlink.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 2:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] Development Duly noted Norman!! Forgot about that; it must be a celtic thing..:-)) This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
Re: RE: [ql-users] Development
??? 6/11/2002 9:53:53 ??, ?/? Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] ??: Cheers Darren, Puts a whole new meaning tio 'animal lovers' doesn't it :o) I suggest we stop here before it gets too far out of hand Oh it already has... and unfortunately for you, there are greeks watching this list ;-) (And we're the first ones to taunt ;-) hee-hee *Evil Laughter* ' Phoebus
RE: RE: [ql-users] Development
Hi Phoebus, listen, I'm a Scotsman living and working in England, married to an English woman and working in a software hose full of English people - and you think your the first to taunt :o) Actually, my wife is from Yorkshire and they all want to be a separate country from England :o) Cheers, Norman. - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:phoebus;dokos-gr.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: [ql-users] Development Oh it already has... and unfortunately for you, there are greeks watching this list ;-) (And we're the first ones to taunt ;-) hee-hee *Evil Laughter* ' This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
RE: RE: [ql-users] Development
At 10:28 ðì 6/11/2002, you wrote: Hi Phoebus, listen, I'm a Scotsman living and working in England, married to an English woman and working in a software hose full of English people - and you think your the first to taunt :o) Actually, my wife is from Yorkshire and they all want to be a separate country from England :o) In that case I deeply sympathise :-) and I hereby retract my comments :-D Phoebus
RE: RE: [ql-users] Development
I shall forgive you then :o) - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - -Original Message- From: Phoebus Dokos [mailto:phoebus;dokos-gr.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: [ql-users] Development At 10:28 ðì 6/11/2002, you wrote: Hi Phoebus, In that case I deeply sympathise :-) and I hereby retract my comments :-D Phoebus This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
RE: Sheep (Was: [ql-users] Development)
Well don't let it happen again :o) - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:phoebus;dokos-gr.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 4:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: Sheep (Was: [ql-users] Development) ??? 6/11/2002 10:52:20 ??, ?/? Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] ??: I shall forgive you then :o) Oh your kindness amazes me sire :-) Phoebus This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, dndsystems1 wrote: Has this bloke gone nuts? We have been producing the Q60 for over a year and Wolfgang has never contacted me once, even though he agreed to do so with Tony Firshman and Derek. So I am still waiting for this contact or is this above the contact he means? Excuse me for pointing out the flaw in this, but if you were aware that Wolfgang, Tony and Derek agreed to communicate about this issue, you have just admitted there was prior communication and that you (the company) were aware of this issue. Licence money has been paid. I have replied to Tony Tebby's email (to me) and I am now waiting for the return reply. This is a private business matter, but for the sake of transparency and defusing the serious allegation, would you care to outline to the group what arrangement you have made? Wolfgang, more like WolfGANGSTER, menacingly demanding money without an invoice. Watch out, this Wolfgangster bloke's a nutter :-))) Dennis, please use this opportunity to take the high ground, not fight to see who can get lowest in the gutter? ;o) That's my job! ;P Dave
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just DON'T assume that I haven't tried to settle this previously in a discreet and diplomatic way. Dude! :o) Ok, so this was a mistep because you got the wrong tone, even if the message was right. There is now public awareness of the ambiguity of DD's license position. Chances are that they ARE ripping off SMSQ/E, but it's still a very strong allegation without some lighter questioning first, even if you had reached a point of going public. The Grafs may have lawfully purchased the right to sell many copies of SMSQ/E, or may operate under a separate license or agreement not relevant to the public SMSQ/E source license. MAY ? Do they? I don't know, and nor do you. Only DD can clear up the situation. You may be right, but that is hardly the point. Oh, but it is. The problem is that, right now, I'm NOT concerned with 'The Grafs' as you put it. I have no idea how the Grafs are involved in this. All I see is that dd are selling the Q60, without a licence. My mistake. I think of The Grafs as the originator oif the rather spiffy Q60, which is made by DD. No doubt, the Graffs had an arrangement for SMSQ/E which they may have transferred or sublicensed to DD to make quite lawfully. We do not know. Unfortunately, knowing may be very destructive, as knowing the license fees paid means knowing exactly what DD's sales are, and therefore what production is, and if you knew how few units they may have sold, the scene may become even more disheartened than it already is. It's not the message, it's the voice. Dave
[ql-users] OT: Testing DOS Browser - Please disregard
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Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
Hi, maybe I can add a bit of clarification here. Most of you know that, before Wolfgang became registrar, all SMSQ/E related royalties and licenses matters went through me to Tony. That was the fact for ALL SMSQ/E royalties, including the Q40/Q60. The Grafs may have lawfully purchased the right to sell many copies of SMSQ/E, or may operate under a separate license or agreement not relevant to the public SMSQ/E source license. MAY ? Do they? There is no secret about the SMSQ/E royalty for the Q40/Q60. The agreement with Tony was, that Peter paid a fixed amount of money to get Tony started (including a personal license for Peter, if I remember correctly ... it's so long ago now) and every additional licesens which was sold by Peter or QBranch had to be purchased through me. Qbranch bought individual licenses directly from me. Peter bought individual licenses directly from me. DD never purchased a license from me. The last license purchase by Peter was early February 2002. Then the whole discussion started. After that, neither Peter nor DD have ordered or paid any license to me. There was no gap - as long as Wolfgang's license was not settled the route to purchase SMSQ/E licenses would have been through me. To make sure that there is nothing I am not aware of, I called Tony a moment ago and asked him - he confirmed that THERE IS NO SPECIAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN HIM AND ANYBODY ELSE AND NO LICENSE MONEY HAS BEEN PAID TO HIM (apart from me and Wolfgang). Jochen
Re: [ql-users] Development
- Original Message - From: Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:22 AM Subject: RE: [ql-users] Development Hey Darren, don't forget us Scots - we like them, too !!! Regards, norman. we like them too scuse me, scuse me, neither the Welsh or I Irish turn them into haggis (;-) Only joking I love a good haggis unfortunately there are a lot of poor one's ( plastic skin, grizzle and spice ) All the best - Bill
OT: Sheep (Was: [ql-users] Development)
??? 6/11/2002 3:50:19 ??, ?/? Bill Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] ??: - Original Message - From: Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:22 AM Subject: RE: [ql-users] Development Hey Darren, don't forget us Scots - we like them, too !!! Regards, norman. we like them too scuse me, scuse me, neither the Welsh or I Irish turn them into haggis (;-) Only joking I love a good haggis unfortunately there are a lot of poor one's ( plastic skin, grizzle and spice ) Ahhh you Brits don't know how to eat :-) Ever tried Kokoretsi? now that's a use for a sheep's intestines ;-) (And it's crunchy too ;-) Phoebus
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002 at 21:06:28, Dave P wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Jochen Merz wrote: maybe I can add a bit of clarification here. Thanks for the clarification. As a member of the public, Wolfgang's approach aside, I can now see how he arrived there (just wish he gave us a chance to get up to speed too instead of throwing us in at the deep end! ;P) So, DD are theiving scum. If you bought one, contact Wolfgang directly and offer to pay the license fee. Seems fair. The money is not the issue really. The main point of the license is to ensure there is only one approved version in the field. DD, according to their adverts, are selling a patched version. This is precisely what Wolfgang is striving to avoid. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.demon.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
[ql-users] What the QL is really all about
After the recent unfortunate, sometimes uninformed, and sometimes downright silly emails in ql-users about the SMSQ/E license, I was absolutely delighted to get a letter from an 'octogenarian' customer (one of the very few customers of any age this year) this morning to remind me what I like about the QL scene, and why I am still around. I repaired her QL (for the second time after a ten year gap), but forgot to tell her in advance that replacement mdv hardware was extra. I simply scribbled a note on the invoice saying something like that, and that it was her lucky day as she got it free. Incidentally the new membrane I fitted in 1990 was still in working order, though brittle. It supported my theory that the main reason membranes fail inside closed QLs is that the tails were bent very hard back on themselves by Thorn-EMI just as they emerge from under the metal plate. Give the tails a gentle curve and the membrane will last - even after it becomes brittle. Here is her reply: QUOTE Dear Sir, Forgive the formality. I don't know your name. I think you really should know just how much your cryptic message on my invoice (No. S07585) encouraged me. It came at a time when other things were not going well and my spirits were low. It was not just the sparing of my bank account, very welcome with Christmas galloping up, but the integrity and generosity translated into action and the humerous [sic] explanation. As an octogenarian I deeply appreciate that. Thank you very much. It is great to have my QL back in service. Yours sincerely, /QUOTE I cannot but think it good that she is not on the internet (she could have guessed 'tony' from my email) - but maybe she will read all about it in Quanta (8-(# -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tonysurname.demon.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002 at 08:46:11, Phoebus Dokos wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Wolfgang, I was under the impression that Peter had acquired (ie paid) the rights to resell/modify SMSQ/E... Since DD systems act as his agents under British (and American) Common law (which not only gives them liability but also benefits), they are entitled to distribute SMSQ/E legally. They do not have the right to sell if for any other system but only for the Qx0 of course. All this of course is true provided that Peter DOES carry the right to modify/resell/develop SMSQ/E (which I believe is true). Even it isn't so, I do not believe that DD would want to hijack the software only that there's an honest misunderstanding somewhere I hope :-) Woldgang will have to reply to this. I am pretty sure that, although Peter offered, no money changed hands. (And not taking sides In any case I am ABSOLUTELY certain that I am not violating ANY law as my Q40 is a used one bought originally from Q- Branch... :-) Those were sold prior to the license, and TT was paid royalties via JMS - you are OK (8-)# It is a great pity that Wolfgang felt he had to make this public. I saw what was going on in private, and believe me, we all tried very hard to get a sensible dialogue going. I hope we still can. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.demon.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Development
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002 at 15:28:28, Norman Dunbar wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Hi Phoebus, listen, I'm a Scotsman living and working in England, married to an English woman and working in a software hose full of English people - and you think your the first to taunt :o) ha ha - how many Englishmen then can you fit in a 'hose'. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.demon.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
[ql-users] Re: Q40 at last
??? 6/11/2002 4:28:36 ??, ?/? Tony Firshman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ??: (And not taking sides In any case I am ABSOLUTELY certain that I am not violating ANY law as my Q40 is a used one bought originally from Q- Branch... :-) Those were sold prior to the license, and TT was paid royalties via JMS - you are OK (8-)# See Tony, after all I got a Q40 from Q-Branch... it took sometime but I got it :-D (I was unfortunate enough to fall into the problematic gap in production...) Seems like my luck is changing... now if I can get Tony to manufacture the little TV toy that I am designing based on the QL (It's really for my daughter but hopefully will get somewhere further than that as well... It HAS to have Minerva as there's no decent child's toy not in some way connected with LEGO (Big fan)...) Phoebus
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
- Original Message - From: Dave P [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst? On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, dndsystems1 wrote: Has this bloke gone nuts? We have been producing the Q60 for over a year and Wolfgang has never contacted me once, even though he agreed to do so with Tony Firshman and Derek. So I am still waiting for this contact or is this above the contact he means? Excuse me for pointing out the flaw in this, but if you were aware that Wolfgang, Tony and Derek agreed to communicate about this issue, you have just admitted there was prior communication and that you (the company) were aware of this issue. I was waiting for an email that never arrived, I am still waiting, I think he is using the wrong address, see other posting. Licence money has been paid. I have replied to Tony Tebby's email (to me) and I am now waiting for the return reply. This is a private business matter, but for the sake of transparency and defusing the serious allegation, would you care to outline to the group what arrangement you have made? No not here it must be to Wolfgang in private, as all of this should be. Wolfgang, more like WolfGANGSTER, menacingly demanding money without an invoice. Watch out, this Wolfgangster bloke's a nutter :-))) Dennis, please use this opportunity to take the high ground, not fight to see who can get lowest in the gutter? ;o) That's my job! ;P Dave Tony Firshman kept emailing me telling me of an important email coming in from Wolfgang _and_ that he was having trouble contacting me, so yes I know all that but where is it so I can respond? The whole thing sounds like a wind up or joke. I did laugh when I first read it, difficult not to. I think I know what the problem has been. We will see. Dennis - DD Systems
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst? On 5 Nov 2002, at 23:20, dndsystems1 wrote: Has this bloke gone nuts? We have been producing the Q60 for over a year and Wolfgang has never contacted me once, even though he agreed to do so with Tony Firshman and Derek. So I am still waiting for this contact or is this above the contact he means? Ahh, at last a reaction. Just for the record, this is a blatant lie. I have contacted YOU on dndsystems1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] in this matter. That is the wrong address you fool and you know it. Do you think I have not searched through that address, you have been informed of the correct address to use but you will not use it, why? Even now you have not contacted me on the DD address but you have had me waiting for over a week expecting it to come in, what can I do if you will not send it. Everyone else around the world contacts us but you do not know how to do it. I have contatced DEREK on the email he GAVE me for correspondence on this matter. You have had a copy of this email for a week on this. If you want to deny this, that's fine by me. Licence money has been paid. TO WHOM? WHEN? I have replied to Tony Tebby's email (to me) and I am now waiting for the return reply. Hmm, that's NOT what Tony said to me. We have sold machines that do not have SMSQ/E - they boot into QDOS Classic instead but then you already know that fact?? On ROM? Etc. etc. etc. this is stupid. Has Wolfgang had a tap on the head recently? (a great cure for water on the brain as it happens). Just address this matter, irony I can do without. Do you, Wolfgang, still intend to send this mystery email to me? No. If not why not? Oh, for various reasons. First of all, I don't send out 'mystery emails'. Second, Derek ACKNOWLEDGED to me that he had received my prior email which did contain a copy of the message I intend(ed) to send to this list. If you two aren't speaking to each other, that's NOT my concern. Both of you are acting for DD. Third, it is up to you to request to become a reseller. If you don't,n you are at fault. Despite that, I DID TAKE the initiative to contact you. You know what your reaction was, i.e. none. Wolfgang, more like WolfGANGSTER, menacingly demanding money without an invoice. Watch out, this Wolfgangster bloke's a nutter :-))) Chuckle. If you sell SMSQ/E without a licence you are breaking the law - not me as you are trying to make out. Wolfgang Derek does not deal with this, that is why I asked him to point you to me _after_ Tony Firshman assured me email(s) were coming in my direction but they never did, did they? Whatever is said from now on I am going to offer you an olive branch - do you understand? - you nicely email me with your concerns and I will work through them with you. You must know the correct address by now, just use it. Dennis - DD Systems
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Tony Firshman wrote: The main point of the license is to ensure there is only one approved version in the field. DD, according to their adverts, are selling a patched version. This is precisely what Wolfgang is striving to avoid. Hmmm, another problem with the license. Until they submit the changes with source to him, he can't make them 'official', so they can't sell them, thereby can't sell the Q60. So basically, Wolfgang has veto power over their ability to sell machines, to some extent. They can't sell them with SMSQ/E until he approves the changes. This also requires them to contribute their changes to other branches of SMSQ too, and to divulge their intellectual property. Can. Of. Worms. *shudders* Glad I'm not stuck in this position. :o) Dave
Re: OT: Sheep (Was: [ql-users] Development)
Öïßâïò Ñ. Íôüêïò wrote: Hey Darren, don't forget us Scots - we like them, too !!! Regards, norman. we like them too scuse me, scuse me, neither the Welsh or I Irish turn them into haggis (;-) Only joking I love a good haggis unfortunately there are a lot of poor one's ( plastic skin, grizzle and spice ) Ahhh you Brits don't know how to eat :-) Ever tried Kokoretsi? now that's a use for a sheep's intestines ;-) (And it's crunchy too ;-) Phoebus Well, ever has chittlens or KY's while in the states??? -- Paul Holmgren Hoosier Corps #33, L-6 2 57 300-C's in Indy
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
- Original Message - From: Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: RE: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst? Morning Dennis, now that you have responded, is there any chance that a meaningful exchange of information can take place beteween yourselves (DD) and Wolfgang to sort out the problem withour further recousrse to name calling and public accusations ? You say no-one has contacted you. Wolfgang et al say differently. You say you have paid TT and Wolfgans says TT says not. Someone somewhere is not communicating ! Please get it all sorted out before we have another flame fest on the list. Cheers, Norman. Good evening Norman, The reply I will post with this should sort Wolfgangs problem out. I get the impression he has always used the wrong address hence 'Black hole syndrome' never mind he can take it all back later on :-) Dennis - DD Systems - Norman Dunbar Database/Unix administrator Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. mailto:Norman.Dunbar;LFS.co.uk Tel: 0113 289 6265 Fax: 0113 289 3146 URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com - -Original Message- From: dndsystems1 [mailto:dndsystems1;supanet.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst? Has this bloke gone nuts? We have been producing the Q60 for over a year and Wolfgang has never contacted me once, even though he agreed to do so with Tony Firshman and Derek. So I am still waiting for this contact or is this above the contact he means? Licence money has been paid. I have replied to Tony Tebby's email (to me) and I am now waiting for the return reply. REST SNIPPED This email is intended only for the use of the addressees named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not an addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in it, nor copy it, nor inform any person other than Lynx Financial Systems or the addressees of its existence or contents. If you have received this email and are not a named addressee, please delete it and notify the Lynx Financial Systems IT Department on 0113 2892990.
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
- Original Message - From: Jochen Merz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst? Hi, maybe I can add a bit of clarification here. Most of you know that, before Wolfgang became registrar, all SMSQ/E related royalties and licenses matters went through me to Tony. That was the fact for ALL SMSQ/E royalties, including the Q40/Q60. The Grafs may have lawfully purchased the right to sell many copies of SMSQ/E, or may operate under a separate license or agreement not relevant to the public SMSQ/E source license. MAY ? Do they? There is no secret about the SMSQ/E royalty for the Q40/Q60. The agreement with Tony was, that Peter paid a fixed amount of money to get Tony started (including a personal license for Peter, if I remember correctly ... it's so long ago now) and every additional licesens which was sold by Peter or QBranch had to be purchased through me. Qbranch bought individual licenses directly from me. Peter bought individual licenses directly from me. DD never purchased a license from me. The last license purchase by Peter was early February 2002. Then the whole discussion started. After that, neither Peter nor DD have ordered or paid any license to me. There was no gap - as long as Wolfgang's license was not settled the route to purchase SMSQ/E licenses would have been through me. To make sure that there is nothing I am not aware of, I called Tony a moment ago and asked him - he confirmed that THERE IS NO SPECIAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN HIM AND ANYBODY ELSE AND NO LICENSE MONEY HAS BEEN PAID TO HIM (apart from me and Wolfgang). Jochen Peter has paid the licences in advance of sales. Sales to the end of the year need to be paid at year end. Peter has asked Wolfgang for the bank account to pay licence fees and although Peter has had replies from Wolfgang on other matters the bank account is still a mystery to Peter and therefore me. I formed the impression that the acount might not have set up yet, I don't know. Dennis - DD Systems
Re: [ql-users] What the QL is really all about
Excellent Tony. Nice to hear something like this for a change. Have we truly forgotten why the hell we all keep this up? I haven't. I lug a huge bloody suitcase full of QL stuff across the Irish sea half a dozen times a year usually. I do it to help keep the QL scene alive, and to meet people I regard as close and dear friends. Come on Guys. Darren Branagh Director, Wicklow Web Centre Limited Computer Training, Web Design, Repairs sales Upgrades. Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.wwc.ie - Original Message - From: Tony Firshman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:26 PM Subject: [ql-users] What the QL is really all about After the recent unfortunate, sometimes uninformed, and sometimes downright silly emails in ql-users about the SMSQ/E license, I was absolutely delighted to get a letter from an 'octogenarian' customer (one of the very few customers of any age this year) this morning to remind me what I like about the QL scene, and why I am still around. I repaired her QL (for the second time after a ten year gap), but forgot to tell her in advance that replacement mdv hardware was extra. I simply scribbled a note on the invoice saying something like that, and that it was her lucky day as she got it free. Incidentally the new membrane I fitted in 1990 was still in working order, though brittle. It supported my theory that the main reason membranes fail inside closed QLs is that the tails were bent very hard back on themselves by Thorn-EMI just as they emerge from under the metal plate. Give the tails a gentle curve and the membrane will last - even after it becomes brittle. Here is her reply: QUOTE Dear Sir, Forgive the formality. I don't know your name. I think you really should know just how much your cryptic message on my invoice (No. S07585) encouraged me. It came at a time when other things were not going well and my spirits were low. It was not just the sparing of my bank account, very welcome with Christmas galloping up, but the integrity and generosity translated into action and the humerous [sic] explanation. As an octogenarian I deeply appreciate that. Thank you very much. It is great to have my QL back in service. Yours sincerely, /QUOTE I cannot but think it good that she is not on the internet (she could have guessed 'tony' from my email) - but maybe she will read all about it in Quanta (8-(# -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.demon.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, dndsystems1 wrote: Thanks for your support Dave, always welcome :-) Well, it's such a polarised debate, I figure I should at least take both sides to be fair ;) Since you're here - what's the chance of a Q60 that comes without a processor, for those of us that have 060's laying around? Dave
RE: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
In 2000 I went to the London workshop, I saw the Q40 and liked it. In 2001 I went to the Byfleet workshop, tried to purchase a Q40 but QBranch and the Grafs had split, so could not. In 2002 I will go to the London workshop, I was going to buy a Q60 but now I find out that they seem to be illegal. Do not say,use QDOS Classic, my message is simple and stark, sort it out! Why do non Wintel platforms keep shooting themselves in the foot? P.S. I am bringing 4 new keyboard membranes for sale. -- Tarquin Mills ACCUS (Anglia Classic Computer Users Society) http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/accus/
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
DD, according to their adverts, are selling a patched version. This is precisely what Wolfgang is striving to avoid. Hmmm, another problem with the license. No because the licence forbids the distribution of unauthorised versions. Simple. Put the worms back in the can. -- Roy Wood Q Branch, 20 Locks Hill Portslade. Sussex. BN41 2LB. UK Tel : +44 (0)1273 386030 Fax : +44 (0)1273 430501 (New number!) Mobile +44(0)7836 745501 Web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
- Original Message - From: Dave P [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst? On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, dndsystems1 wrote: Thanks for your support Dave, always welcome :-) Well, it's such a polarised debate, I figure I should at least take both sides to be fair ;) Since you're here - what's the chance of a Q60 that comes without a processor, for those of us that have 060's laying around? Dave You cannot be serious, man. We have a contracted agreement with Quanta to supply complete working motherboards as a minimum and that includes some kind of O/S, as we have stuck rigidly to the contract conditions the answer is er... no! Quanta have in effect granted us overdraft facilities so we never go into the red at DD and can afford to invest in massive hardware projects like er... oh yes, the Q60. If your CPU is any good? you might be able to sell it to Peter Graf who could supply it to us and we could sell it to you :-) All our motherboard components and expansion cards must come from Peter as this is another contract we do not deviate from. It makes absolute sense, one point of quality control for guaranteed components and a quality build. I have lost a complete evenings work messing about with is silly email stuff instead of working. A bit of a dent in the production schedule, never mind its all for a good cause, or is it? Makes you wonder sometimes. If I get to bed before 1:00am it won't be too bad, better than the 4 hours I got yesterday. Dennis - DD Systems
Re: [ql-users] QXL II w/ full blown 68040
At 16:06 06/11/2002, you wrote: Hi all, I just installed a 33MHz 68040 (no EC) on my QXL-II and I have the other one (68EC040-25) as a spare. If anyone wants it, please let me know :-) What does EC stand for? I was thinking either Extra Cool, or maybe SMSQ/E Not Included; but I don't think I'm allowed to say the latter unless TT pays me 10. Or something... :) -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.com
Re: [ql-users] QL Calendar for 2003
Malcolm Cadman writes: Has anyone thought of doing of doing a QL Calendar ? Ill vote for you to be Mr January 2003 ;) Per
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
One thing that puzzles me; Dennis states that Wolfgang used the wrong address so he never received it. However the wrong address seems to be the one that Derek uses to contact this list. I've never come across a send only email address before. Wolfgang, with the benefit of hindsight, don't you think it would have been diplomatic to use this list to make the contact with D D instead of starting a war? I'm sure that a carefully worded question posted to him publicly would have ensured you would have got the response you were looking for. regards, Jeremy
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 6 Nov 2002, at 21:42, dndsystems1 wrote: The reply I will post with this should sort Wolfgangs problem out. I get the impression he has always used the wrong address hence 'Black hole syndrome' never mind he can take it all back later on :-) There seems nothing to take back Wolfgang
Re: QRe: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 6 Nov 2002, at 20:06, Phoebus Dokos wrote: (...) . More than once I've sent email to demon.co.uk users and it got lost or bounced. I'm not sure what's wrong (Adelphia tells me that's demon's fault.. maybe so as adelphia has a lot of spammers amongst its users...) nonetheless, it is a situation that is possible. In this case, I got an achnowledgment of receipt from Derek. Wolfgang
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 6 Nov 2002, at 20:34, Bill Waugh wrote: Can't argue with that, but few things fit easily into a black or white catagory Actually, I was hoping to get some explanation from DD to make this entire thing a bit less black and a bit more grey... what is occuring ( as usual ) is a discussion with many versions of the same story and heaps of hypothetical scenarios, if and buts and maybe's generating more emails than we have user's. :- I'd rather you all spent your time developing the code, you probably agree !!! Yes, but - the way I look at it now is that some people (or at least me) is trying to get a good version of SMSQ/E for every machine, including the Q60 (for example, the fast memory was incorporated into the official version of SMSQ/E) whereas some others just don't play by the rules but still profit from my work... Wolfgang
[ql-users] QDT web sight update
Guys, I finally got my web sight for QDT converted to my new web publishing tool. It now has two new images and progress table updates. hi color notebook page [updated] QDT installer [new] If anyone wants to take a look, it is at: http://www.jdh-stech.com I am working on the installer now and have a list of things still to do. If all goes well, I will release QDT into a very limited Beta around the end of the year. Progress is slow due to my many conflicting responsibilities, etc. but I continue to plod along. Jim
Re: [ql-users] Software pirates in our midst?
On 6 Nov 2002, at 21:23, dndsystems1 wrote: That is the wrong address you fool and you know it. Hmm, it's the address YOU use to post on here. Since it is foolish to use - what? Do you think I have not searched through that address, you have been informed of the correct address to use but you will not use it, why? Even now you have not contacted me on the DD address but you have had me waiting for over a week expecting it to come in, what can I do if you will not send it. Everyone else around the world contacts us but you do not know how to do it. YOU HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR A WEEK? Ha! This is so ridiculous, it had me laughing for a minute. Let's set seom things straight, hmmm? First of all, I don't have to contact you. YOU have to initiate contact - after all, YOU are selling something that doesn't belong to you. Second I contaced you at the email address you used here in this list. Reply : silence. Third, I replied to an email (in JULY!) sent to me privately on a totally other matter by Derek, asking about this. Reply: silence. Fourth, after Tony Firshman made enormous efforts to get to you, Derek finally emailed me, giving me a choice of 2 email addresses. I used the first one he gave me. I sent you (DD) a long email to that address, containing a copy of the one I later sent to the list,and telling you that I intened to put this email on the list. reply : achnowledgement of receipt - then silence. About a week later, I reminded you and asked for your reply. Reply : please use proper channels. Guess what - at that time, I thought that the proper channel was this here list. I have contatced DEREK on the email he GAVE me for correspondence on this matter. You have had a copy of this email for a week on this. If you want to deny this, that's fine by me. Licence money has been paid. TO WHOM? WHEN? (no reply here...) I have replied to Tony Tebby's email (to me) and I am now waiting for the return reply. Hmm, that's NOT what Tony said to me. We have sold machines that do not have SMSQ/E - they boot into QDOS Classic instead but then you already know that fact?? On ROM? (no reply here) (...) If you sell SMSQ/E without a licence you are breaking the law - not me as you are trying to make out. Wolfgang Derek does not deal with this, that is why I asked him to point you to me _after_ Tony Firshman assured me email(s) were coming in my direction but they never did, did they? Why do youask Derek to point me to you - why don't you contact me, Are you trying to say that Derek never mlentioned my emails to you? Whatever is said from now on I am going to offer you an olive branch - do you understand? - you nicely email me with your concerns and I will work through them with you. You must know the correct address by now, just use it. It's the one you have use in this list, of course, isn't it? Please note that these are not my concerns, but yours. You are breaking tha if you are selling SMSQ/E without any licence. Wolfgang
