Re: howto hiding header
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 09:50:51AM +0800, kh wrote: I'm using the fastforward alias, and note that the header of the email has added several header "Delived-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]" because I have a few level alias for a same user, my question is how do I hide the header generated by fastforward alias, I mean hide the header "Delivered-To: ". That header is important as it's used for fool-proof loop detection. If you remove it you risk looping email on your server. Consequently qmail has no standard provision for removing it, so you have to write a filter with perl/awk at the point of final delivery. Is the loop risk worth the assumed benefit? Btw. What benefit are you trying to get by removing them? Perhaps it can be achieved in some other way? Regards.
Re: Howto LDAP
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is important for me I need information of LDAP on QMAIL I need install LDAP or MYSQL runnig on QMAIL I am looking: www.nrg4u.com but I don't understand How works it? How do install a file .patch? I don't think you'll get many responses to this; some/many/most of the people on this list are of the opinion that knowing how to apply a patch file to a source tree is a prerequisite for being a mail administrator. However, for a brief explanation... A patchfile describes a set of changes to one or more files. Typically these are text files (source code and/or documenation, etc). The utility 'patch' can read these files and apply the changes to copies of the original files. In this case, the patch file contains changes from the original qmail (no capital 'q') source tree, and the version which supports LDAP or MySQL, depending on what you're looking for. The way to use them is to download the qmail sources, unpack the tarball, download the patch file, and apply the patch to the now-modified qmail source tree. Then compile and install the newly-built LDAP- or MySQL-capable qmail binaries on your system. For more details, see `man patch` and any competent system administrator's guide. Charles -- -- Charles Cazabon [EMAIL PROTECTED] QCC Communications Corporation Saskatoon, SK My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer. --
Re: Howto LDAP
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I need information of LDAP on QMAIL I need install LDAP or MYSQL runnig on QMAIL I am looking: www.nrg4u.com but I don't understand How works it? 1) What documentation there is on this package is available from www.nrg4u.com. 2) The proper place to discuss this package is the qmail-ldap list. Instructions for subscribing are provided on www.nrg4u.com. 3) "Note: This is NOT point-and-click-and-then-it-works ware! You should have fairly good prior knowledge of qmail and LDAP." How do install a file .patch? See "man patch". But the fact that you ask that question leads me to believe you're not ready for qmail-ldap. -Dave
Re: Howto start vpopmail
also sprach buq: from vpopmail INSTALL env - PATH="/var/qmail/bin:/usr/local/bin" \ tcpserver -H -R 0 pop-3 \ /var/qmail/bin/qmail-popup pegasus.nuvo.fi \ /home/vpopmail/bin/vchkpw /var/qmail/bin/qmail-pop3d Maildir hjums, it just don't start, there is no file called tcpserver.. any ideads where I can get it?;) (Linux) It's part of the ucspi-tcp package. Check www.qmail.org. /pg -- Peter Green : Gospel Communications Network, SysAdmin : [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- 1. What is the possibility of this being added in the future? In the near future, the probability is close to zero. In the distant future, I'll be dead, and posterity can do whatever they like... :-) --- lwall
Re: Howto -Qmailadmin - for default domain and not for virtualdomain
Add the main domain as a virtual, but make sure it's not listed in virtualdomains. Then make QMAIL/mailboxes/users a symlink to a virtual domain inside QMAIL/mailboxes/domains. Jon At 11:15 AM +0800 11/18/99, john wrote: I want to know how to administer web based qmail using Qmailadmin from Inter 7 for the default domain and not for the virtual domain. I need to addusers, delete users and also the users should be able to change their passwords Your help would be much appreciated
Re: HOWTO prevent one user from sending
On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Mike McLeish wrote: I have an abuser who loves to send tons of email jokes from his account on my machine, but doesn't seem to be reading any! He's an employee, so I can't just disable his account completely. What I'd like to do is prevent him from sending any more email, but allow him to continue to receive email. Well, in my opinion, you should cut him off. That's what we did with an employee here that was abusing the net. We have acceptable terms for email/web access and cutting him off was being nice (he should have been fired). This is, of course, after having given him a warning. -- Albert Hopkins Sr. Systems Specialist Dynacare, Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HOWTO prevent one user from sending
Mike McLeish writes: I have an abuser who loves to send tons of email jokes from his account on my machine, but doesn't seem to be reading any! He's an employee, so I can't just disable his account completely. What I'd like to do is prevent him from sending any more email, but allow him to continue to receive email. Tell him: "You will not use company resources to send tons of email jokes." If he continues, fire him. If you don't have management authority over him, then your engineering blocks will be seen as inappropriate. If you try to use technical solutions, you will be setting him up to try to bypass them. -- -russ nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://russnelson.com Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | Government schools are so 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | bad that any rank amateur Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | can outdo them. Homeschool!
Re: Howto
Scott D Yelich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just read the bind book after 12 years of Internet work (ya, predating real widespread bind use... remember ftping to xerox parc?). I did learn two things, so that was worthwhile. Of course, I borrowed the book, so it has been returned. Why can't MX records be CNAMES? No one seems to really know for sure. People will spew "RTFM" and/or "read the RFC" -- but they can't even specify *which* RFC. Even if one does read the RFC, it will just state something like "MX records can't point to CNAMES" -- and never really state why this is so. MX records can't point to CNAMEs because applications don't expect them to and don't handle it correctly. Applications don't expect them to because the standard said that you can't do that. The standard said that because you can have a chain of CNAMEs leading to an MX record, and it probably was judged that having to follow CNAME chains both before and after the MX record was pointless complexity for no actual gain and complicated the meaning of both CNAMEs and MX records. Really? Again, I worked with TCL back in 93-94 or something. I think its parser was braindead then and there wasn't a drive to fix it. Tcl has gotten quite a bit better. If you want to embed perl in everything, welcome to a 2mb base footprint. Depends on what you mean by footprint. If you have a whole bunch of things linked against Perl, like I do on my typical news server, then a single 1MB copy of libperl.so gets loaded into memory and shared between all of them, and each additional instance of Perl starts looking pretty small. headwall:~ dir /usr/bin/perl -rwxr-xr-x 3 root root10752 Jun 17 23:14 /usr/bin/perl* I don't think there is such a thing as qmail ... installed properly. At least, not in a true working system that does anything besides base qmail. There are far too many little holes in the system and documentation to allow for any "standards" -- and due to the amount of secondary programs that are necessary to have in place to real functionality out of qmail -- I just don't see how anyone can really expect qmail to behave the same way twice. I don't *want* my MTA to behave the same way twice; my systems don't look the same. I want my MTA to fit my system. :) Ya, ya, the list is probably sick of me by now -- but I dare any of them to honestly try to say that 3 different ISPs are going to have similar qmail installs. I dare them to honestly say they're going to have similar sendmail or Postfix or Exim installs. :) -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Re: Howto
On Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 12:08:20AM -0600, Scott D. Yelich wrote: First of all I'd like to apologize to the entire list for posting this. I had told myself I wasn't going to post any more on this thread, but it's just too funny to keep away from. This, however, WILL be my last post, and as for scott and alex, they have been procmailed out of my existence. DNS BIND (studying it, pretty advanced for me) I just read the bind book after 12 years of Internet work (ya, predating real widespread bind use... remember ftping to xerox parc?). I did learn two things, so that was worthwhile. Of course, I borrowed the book, so it has been returned. Why can't MX records be CNAMES? No one seems to really know for sure. People will spew "RTFM" and/or "read the RFC" -- but they can't even specify *which* RFC. Even if one does read the RFC, it will just state something like "MX records can't point to CNAMES" -- and never really state why this is so. You were given the answer to this two days ago and didn't bother to read it. Russ just answered you again, let's see if you read it this time. Linux System Administration (I've referred to this one a LOT trying to get To me, linux was always more BSDish in the admin than SysV. Lately there has been a little more SysV creepage. Overall, the only thing linux teaches me is what Adam or someone was harping about -- and that is knowing your daemons -- or, rather, how to find how and where they are in the system config. On the otherhand, I'm really tired of people putting together linux crap and trying to pass it off as the best thing since Sys7. taildir what -- good luck trying to get that to work. net/inet.h? good luck. Yes, I remember that tirade. You spent about 3 days trying to compile a utility that basically does the same thing as a two-line shell script. Also, if I remember correctly, the compilation problem you were having had to do with an incompatibility that was specific to your platform, namely Solaris, on which the (BSD) functions you needed had been moved into a different library. Did you just conveniently forget about that? Has anyone, yet, seen a complete list of all of the auxiliary programs that are necessary to install qmail and get it working with any decent functionality? Every time I ask about some new functionality, I'm told something like taildir or some other program that I ahve yet to see any reference to -- and at the same time I'm being called an idiot for not knowing this relationship. Everything you need to get a perfectly fine working qmail setup is on ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu. Internet - Relay Chat Been there, done that. Now I just get smurfed for my nick or opers "temp kline" me for my nick. Ya, I was an irc op on like the 8th (US?) server? I get kiddies (Adam?) who tell me IRC wasn't around before '91 since that's when the RFC was put out. Uh huh. I don't believe there's a phrase or statement that you can't twist around to suit your agenda. That's one thing you're actually pretty good at. I suppose that we can attribute that to all of your years on irc (pissing contest what?) The Bash System Shell (I bought this one recently because of trying to get Mutt to work required handling the Environment variables) Right, bash, ksh, zsk, psh, ash, sh, csh, tcsh, whatever. I've forgotten more about shell scripting than oh nevermind Yeah but the following apparently had you baffled: FILE=`ls /var/log/qmail | tail -n 1' tail -f $FILE Blah blah blah.. more annoying off topic crap deleted.. Before I go to sleep tonight I will pray that you switch to postfix. --Adam
Re: Howto
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Adam D. McKenna wrote: the RFC, it will just state something like "MX records can't point to CNAMES" -- and never really state why this is so. You were given the answer to this two days ago and didn't bother to read it. Russ just answered you again, let's see if you read it this time. I read it.. and Russ's response -- and a response from someone coding Bind 9. Ok, so we've beaten the dead horse with the fact that MX records can't be CNAMES... so why does bind allow this? Go figure. Yes, I remember that tirade. You spent about 3 days trying to compile a utility that basically does the same thing as a two-line shell script. Also, if I remember correctly, the compilation problem you were having had to do with an incompatibility that was specific to your platform, namely Solaris, on which the (BSD) functions you needed had been moved into a different library. Did you just conveniently forget about that? It's always me... me me me. You missed the whole point of the discussion and you still just don't get it. I got the program to compile just fine with the BSD libraries and do you know what? It crashes. Everything you need to get a perfectly fine working qmail setup is on ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu. Yes. Everything I need is on the Internet, well, except for good documentation -- and, no, I won't write better documentation because I can't get past the starting point. Been there, done that. Now I just get smurfed for my nick or opers "temp kline" me for my nick. Ya, I was an irc op on like the 8th (US?) server? I get kiddies (Adam?) who tell me IRC wasn't around before '91 since that's when the RFC was put out. Uh huh. I don't believe there's a phrase or statement that you can't twist around to suit your agenda. That's one thing you're actually pretty good at. I suppose that we can attribute that to all of your years on irc (pissing contest what?) Why thank you. I actually mentioned my enumerated post in IRC and one guy asked why I bothered with qmail and this list anymore (he has since moved on to postfix and has been happy). Yeah but the following apparently had you baffled: FILE=`ls /var/log/qmail | tail -n 1' tail -f $FILE ls -rt , right? eh? alias x 'eval head -\`expr -\!:1 + `wc -l \!:2 | cut -b 0-9` \` \!:2' piss some more... Blah blah blah.. more annoying off topic crap deleted.. Before I go to sleep tonight I will pray that you switch to postfix. I'm compiling it now! :-) Scott
RE: Howto
It's great. That being said vigorously sincerely, there are a few improvements. 2.8.1 discusses /var/qmail/rc The memphis RPM which, so far, was the only way I could get QMail to function differs from conventional setups in that there is no /var/qmail/rc file. It would be nice if something were mentioned comparing your steps to the Memphis RPM and the Summer RPM. My impression, and I could be wrong is that: The DJB tarball instructions are for the most basic QMail setup, few bells and whistles (a sound idea, fewer things to break), and assumes you will be using inetd.conf The summer RPM is akin to DJB's setup. Your setup is much more complete, and incorporates the best of the QMail extra tools, particularly the tcpserver, start-stop daemons, and other things that make life easier. The Memphis RPM is more akin, but not the same as your setup. 5.11 icompable should be spelled incompatible. Also, reading 5.11 begs the question: Is it reasonable to replace SMTP with QMTP? Will Mail clients like Eudora, Pegasus, Outlook, Mutt, Pine be able to support it? B.3. ucspi-tcp says tcpserver is the only server supported by the author of qmail. well, not exactly. inetd is part of DJB's current tarball install instructions(well, the one I downloaded a few weeks ago) B.11 Maildrop It doesn't say why one would use either procmail or maildrop. For example, since it's a mail filter, is it good for "stamping" subject lines. Can it be used by a shell user like ezmlm, or is it for the sysadmin only. E.2 The aol patch is probably the main reason, I am interested in getting a non-rpm equivalent to the Memphis RPM running. I have been getting failures sending to some AOL addresses. It would be useful if the instructions on rebuilding qmail in 5.10.x were more explicit. That is, assuming I ran wanted to remove the unpatched Memphis RPM, should I install completely using your steps, then take the patch, place it in the right place, and run the step to rebuild.? And that step is? I'm just commenting on your good manual, since you asked, so don't think I'm making these points just because I'm lazy. G.1 QMail doesn't deliver to superusers. Ok, but the Memphis rpm puts a lot of .qmail files that contain root in the alias user directory. Adam pointed out that I hadn't looked at .qmail-root (he's right, I hadn't). It's empty. Ok, so where does it all go? Nowhere? Should I set up a "rootcatcher" user for those .qmail files? G.4 dcmented should be spelled documented H.5 It killed a dog? j/k No number: The bottom open content icon. Ok, I'm interested in hosting your manual on my server as well. I'd like to help add to it, and possibly integrate some of my impressions of what it's like dipping into QMail. In particular, as I mentioned earlier, I want to put together a Linux distribution that includes QMail (with whatever is the correctly licensed way of distributing it per DJB). So, your manual as well written as it is, should be "the manual" as far as I'm concerned. Missing stuff: Ok, well not missing since QMail is an MTA, but I'd be interested in helping write up extra chapters/separate documents. Using pine with Maildirs. Using mutt with Maildirs. DNS and QMail - how to make a bunch of virtual domains, start to finish EZMLM - how to set up one hundred and one mailing lists. QMail, Mail Clients, and Firewalls - Everything a new QMail Administer ought to know about Unix security. Basic Etiquette for Experienced Unix System Administrators. Extra special comment: 1.1 Life with qmail is aimed at everyone interested in running qmail, from the rank amateur (newbie) who just installed Linux on a spare PC all the way up to the experienced system administrator or mail administrator. If you find it lacking or unclear, please let me know. Send comments to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is numbered 1.1 as it should be. If you'll notice you have a very helpful personality, and also know what your talking about. Compare this with Adam McKenna's howto. There is no audience section mentioned in his document. His chapter 2 is, of course, titled RTFM. A lovely quote from Adam McKenna (his RTFM chapter) "At this time, it would be a good idea to read some of the official documentation. Of course, you're not going to do that, you're going to continue reading my drivel. I have an almost obscene power over you now. It intoxicates me." Another lovely quote from Adam McKenna "GFY" What a nice guy. Aren't we glad he's around to help and advise folks? Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto "Scott D. Yelich" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Everything I need is on the Internet, well, except for good documentation -- Have you read "Life with qmail"? If you have, I'd be happy to hear what you think needs improvement. The URL: http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html -Dave
RE: Howto
I have installed the line from FAQ 5.1 in the ined.conf tcpserver -u 501 -g 500 0 smtp /car/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd The FAQ never said to put the above line in inetd.conf. It says put the above line in your sys startup files. tcpserver is used *instead of* inetd. The FAQ cannot really be more specific since there are several ways to start a daemon under Unices. Mate
RE: Howto
No magic maybe, but perhaps a different syntax in the inetd that Redhat uses. No, syntax for Rh inetd is the same as in the INSTALL: 16. Set up qmail-smtpd in /etc/inetd.conf (all on one line): smtp stream tcp nowait qmaild /var/qmail/bin/tcp-env tcp-env /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd Notice: no tcpserver mentioned. Mate
Re: Howto
I believe the point was that you read your car manual to see where the power connects are for the stereo your also reading a manual for to install. Or, in other words, read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly while you read the qmail manual as you install it. You guys make this issue way too academic. Instead of lecturing Alex what he was supposed to do, it would have been better to read his startup command he put in inetd.conf: he was trying to run tcpserver from it. The qmail-smtpd startup command in INSTALL works perfectly well with RH Linux---or any other Linux I have seen. Do not forget, that command is used by D Summer's rpm... Mate
RE: Howto
Being a newbi as alex in qmail an other things. You guys have to understand that alot of the manuals are made for linux users and not newbies. The text as well as explination of alot of the commands do not make any sense at all to someone that is new. If the manuals were also out with text that were in simpler terms which others that are not gurus can understand -Original Message- From: Mate Wierdl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto I believe the point was that you read your car manual to see where the power connects are for the stereo your also reading a manual for to install. Or, in other words, read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly while you read the qmail manual as you install it. You guys make this issue way too academic. Instead of lecturing Alex what he was supposed to do, it would have been better to read his startup command he put in inetd.conf: he was trying to run tcpserver from it. The qmail-smtpd startup command in INSTALL works perfectly well with RH Linux---or any other Linux I have seen. Do not forget, that command is used by D Summer's rpm... Mate
Re: Howto
On Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 07:50:32AM -0700, Durham, Kenneth J wrote: Being a newbi as alex in qmail an other things. You guys have to understand that alot of the manuals are made for linux users and not newbies. The text as well as explination of alot of the commands do not make any sense at all to someone that is new. If the manuals were also out with text that were in simpler terms which others that are not gurus can understand I've noticed something in my years on internet mailing lists - the tone in which a question is answered usually matches the tone in which it is asked. I don't think anyone here had a problem with alex asking questions. I think that they had a problem with his accusatory tone and whining when he found out that he actually had to do a little reading in order to accomplish what he wanted to do. He hasn't let up with this attitude yet. It's like he's Scott Jr. or something. --Adam
memphis rpm(Re: Howto)
Finally, I installed the Memphis RPM, I noticed immediate differences. 1) First, there is no rc file in /var/qmail. The README in my ftp directory explains the differences between the tarball and the rpm's setup. 2) There were additional daemons running, particularly the tcp server. Again, README. 3) My rc#.d directories were filled with special scripts. Those are all links except the ones in init.d. The all start different qmail daemons. 4) The alias folder had MANY .qmail files rather than the 3 specified in the tarball distribution. (Oddly they all point to root, which according to the docs is a no-no) This for RH compatibility. The sendmail package sets up these aliases. They all point to root, because in my experience, most RH LInux boxes have a single administrator, and so one just has to specify the where root's mail should go. (Oddly they all point to root, which according to the docs is a no-no) It is not a no-no. Under qmail, root does not receive mail in it home. That has nothing to do with aliases pointing at root. The point is that one has to set up an alias for root. Under the Memphis rpm, .qmail-root is empty, so all mail to root goes to ~alias/Mailbox. I still cannot run pop remotely, but that's something else. This has something to with your DNS/Fierwall setup. Mate
Re: Howto
On Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 07:50:32AM -0700, Durham, Kenneth J wrote: } Being a newbi as alex in qmail an other things. You guys have to understand } that alot of the manuals are made for linux users and not newbies. The text } as well as explination of alot of the commands do not make any sense at all } to someone that is new. If the manuals were also out with text that were in } simpler terms which others that are not gurus can understand But what *you* have to understand is that if you're that much of a newbie, you probably shouldn't be trying to install qmail. First learn Linux, which means learning very basic things like learning how to use man. Then learn how to install packages less important than an smtp server from source. qmail is actually very easy to install and very flexible, but you have to, *before you start to install qmail or any other critical package*, know some fundamental things about your system works, and what to do if things go wrong. -- Paul J. Schinder NASA Goddard Space Flight Center [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Howto
Actually, Things I find objectionable: RTFM, particularly, when the issue is misunderstanding what was read, or not having the right prior knowledge, instead of when the user didn't actually read the manual. In India, confessions are prohibited in the courts because it is recognized that their use leads to sloppy or inhumane efforts by the police. RTFM should be just as excluded, since it is generally misapplied. On my list, [EMAIL PROTECTED], RTFM comments will be prohibited. I should clarify, RTFM is not the same as, for example, Dave Sill's generally helpful pointers to relevant manual entries, specifically, often by number. RTFM is an accost, an assault, the F in it is actually a profanity. The lecturing about "why don't you try to understand" is an accost. Berating someone from discussing a topic that is not of personal interest to one reader. Once Mate pointed out, last week, that a firewall might be the cause of remote servers I didn't post much and spent my spare time, reading up on firewalls and watching the list to see what other people were experiencing with it. Sure enough, someone brings it up, only to be squelched with complaints about the subject. When I pointed out that I was very interested in other people's security problems, particularly in their QMail setups I was told that it's inappropriate. What was it you said Adam, "there are no MTA-specific issues relating to firewalls" (oh, is that not an exact quote, well excuse me) Profanity Unacceptable on a mailing list. Threats of law suits should I elaborate? This stuff is very visible. Don't think that the behavior on this list isn't completely public, and potentially newsworthy. There are lot's of people starting to learn LINUX, set up KDE, etc. What should they expect? What kind of experience will it be for them if they try to install some new software? Will it be like an example experience with QMail? People should write to mailing lists as if their comments are going to be published, as examples of the good and the bad in the internet world. Already, I'm making a web page (a helpful one) for things that beginners should know who want to install QMail. Already, the list on it, "Adam's List" is taking shape, and will be useful. I've learned a lot already, from soliciting it, and will learn plenty more, following those man pages and collecting them onto a web page. So even from Adam's efforts to be hostile something good can come from it. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Adam D. McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 10:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto On Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 07:50:32AM -0700, Durham, Kenneth J wrote: Being a newbi as alex in qmail an other things. You guys have to understand that alot of the manuals are made for linux users and not newbies. The text as well as explination of alot of the commands do not make any sense at all to someone that is new. If the manuals were also out with text that were in simpler terms which others that are not gurus can understand I've noticed something in my years on internet mailing lists - the tone in which a question is answered usually matches the tone in which it is asked. I don't think anyone here had a problem with alex asking questions. I think that they had a problem with his accusatory tone and whining when he found out that he actually had to do a little reading in order to accomplish what he wanted to do. He hasn't let up with this attitude yet. It's like he's Scott Jr. or something. --Adam
RE: Howto
Alex, As you quoted "Don't think that the behavior on this list isn't completely public, and potentially newsworthy." This is a very public mailing list and from what i remember freedom of speach is still in affect. One of the greatist things in america is that if someone does not like something or does not agree with someone, they can voice there opinion even though it may be taken as profanity, or offensive. You take remarks the way you feel. Others may make comments and take them in a diffrent mannor. Please understand the guys on here, especialy the ones that have helped me out in the past thanks guys, Just expect the minimal from you. By common sense you should know to read all documentations via web pages, man files, and or any text files availible befor askin someone a question. Imagine this. If someone called General Motors but does not know how to drive example General Motors doesn't have a help line for people who don't know how to drive. Imagine if they did... HelpLine: General Motors HelpLine, how can I help you? Customer: I got in my car and closed the door and nothing happened! HelpLine: Did you put the key in the ignition slot and turn it? Customer: What's an ignition? HelpLine: It's a starter motor that draws current from your battery and turns over the engine. Customer: Ignition? Motor? Battery? Engine? How come I have to know all these technical terms just to use my car? This is what would happen. How can someone help this person if they dont know the basics. I do admit that I did ask some dumb questions. But I made sure to read the text, man pages, and other documents befor askin. Just a FYI for later Ken -Original Message- From: Alex Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Howto Actually, Things I find objectionable: RTFM, particularly, when the issue is misunderstanding what was read, or not having the right prior knowledge, instead of when the user didn't actually read the manual. In India, confessions are prohibited in the courts because it is recognized that their use leads to sloppy or inhumane efforts by the police. RTFM should be just as excluded, since it is generally misapplied. On my list, [EMAIL PROTECTED], RTFM comments will be prohibited. I should clarify, RTFM is not the same as, for example, Dave Sill's generally helpful pointers to relevant manual entries, specifically, often by number. RTFM is an accost, an assault, the F in it is actually a profanity. The lecturing about "why don't you try to understand" is an accost. Berating someone from discussing a topic that is not of personal interest to one reader. Once Mate pointed out, last week, that a firewall might be the cause of remote servers I didn't post much and spent my spare time, reading up on firewalls and watching the list to see what other people were experiencing with it. Sure enough, someone brings it up, only to be squelched with complaints about the subject. When I pointed out that I was very interested in other people's security problems, particularly in their QMail setups I was told that it's inappropriate. What was it you said Adam, "there are no MTA-specific issues relating to firewalls" (oh, is that not an exact quote, well excuse me) Profanity Unacceptable on a mailing list. Threats of law suits should I elaborate? This stuff is very visible. Don't think that the behavior on this list isn't completely public, and potentially newsworthy. There are lot's of people starting to learn LINUX, set up KDE, etc. What should they expect? What kind of experience will it be for them if they try to install some new software? Will it be like an example experience with QMail? People should write to mailing lists as if their comments are going to be published, as examples of the good and the bad in the internet world. Already, I'm making a web page (a helpful one) for things that beginners should know who want to install QMail. Already, the list on it, "Adam's List" is taking shape, and will be useful. I've learned a lot already, from soliciting it, and will learn plenty more, following those man pages and collecting them onto a web page. So even from Adam's efforts to be hostile something good can come from it. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Adam D. McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 10:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto On Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 07:50:32AM -0700, Durham, Kenneth J wrote: Being a newbi as alex in qmail an other things. You guys have to understand that alot of the manuals are made for linux users and not newbies. The text as well as explination of alot of the commands do not make any sense at all to someone that is new. If the manuals were also out with text that were in simpler terms which others that are not gurus can understand I've noticed something in my years on int
RE: Howto
General Motors doesn't have a help line for people who don't know how to drive. Imagine if they did... You mean a help line like their web page? http://www.gm.com/vehicles/us/owners/partners_safety/e830.html Wouldn't the person on the help line be just a bit negligent if they failed to ask. Do you have a learner's permit and are you seated next to a licensed driver over 18? Do I understand you correctly, that you believe that installing QMail ought to be as familiar a task to the unitiated as the need to use a key while driving. That is, if you ask your average non-driver, how do you start a car, they would say, "well, you use the key". If you asked your average non-QMail administrator, well how would you start QMail they would answer correctly? So your comparing someones inability, to, for example get smtp running following the tarball instructions, but able to get it running using the Memphis RPM, roughly akin to not understanding that a key starts most cars. Let me ask you this. If you got into an airplane, a Cessna 150, and I handed you a key, could you start it? Is the key what starts it? Should you turn it like a car key? Is there a difference between turning it left or right? Would you be an idiot if I handed you the manual and after reading it for a week, you made mistakes attempting to start it. If you read the manual, highlighted all the items you thought were important, had 10 questions about things you didn't understand, would you find it justified if I said to you, NEXT time you want to take a flying lesson read the manual. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Durham, Kenneth J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 12:24 PM To: 'Alex Miller'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: Howto Alex, As you quoted "Don't think that the behavior on this list isn't completely public, and potentially newsworthy." This is a very public mailing list and from what i remember freedom of speach is still in affect. One of the greatist things in america is that if someone does not like something or does not agree with someone, they can voice there opinion even though it may be taken as profanity, or offensive. You take remarks the way you feel. Others may make comments and take them in a diffrent mannor. Please understand the guys on here, especialy the ones that have helped me out in the past thanks guys, Just expect the minimal from you. By common sense you should know to read all documentations via web pages, man files, and or any text files availible befor askin someone a question. Imagine this. If someone called General Motors but does not know how to drive example General Motors doesn't have a help line for people who don't know how to drive. Imagine if they did... HelpLine: General Motors HelpLine, how can I help you? Customer: I got in my car and closed the door and nothing happened! HelpLine: Did you put the key in the ignition slot and turn it? Customer: What's an ignition? HelpLine: It's a starter motor that draws current from your battery and turns over the engine. Customer: Ignition? Motor? Battery? Engine? How come I have to know all these technical terms just to use my car? This is what would happen. How can someone help this person if they dont know the basics. I do admit that I did ask some dumb questions. But I made sure to read the text, man pages, and other documents befor askin. Just a FYI for later Ken -Original Message- From: Alex Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Howto Actually, Things I find objectionable: RTFM, particularly, when the issue is misunderstanding what was read, or not having the right prior knowledge, instead of when the user didn't actually read the manual. In India, confessions are prohibited in the courts because it is recognized that their use leads to sloppy or inhumane efforts by the police. RTFM should be just as excluded, since it is generally misapplied. On my list, [EMAIL PROTECTED], RTFM comments will be prohibited. I should clarify, RTFM is not the same as, for example, Dave Sill's generally helpful pointers to relevant manual entries, specifically, often by number. RTFM is an accost, an assault, the F in it is actually a profanity. The lecturing about "why don't you try to understand" is an accost. Berating someone from discussing a topic that is not of personal interest to one reader. Once Mate pointed out, last week, that a firewall might be the cause of remote servers I didn't post much and spent my spare time, reading up on firewalls and watching the list to see what other people were experiencing with it. Sure enough, someone brings it up, only to be squelched with complaints about the subject. When I pointed out that I was very interested in other people's security problems, particularly in their QMail setups I was told
RE: Howto
"Alex Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me ask you this. If you got into an airplane, a Cessna 150, and I handed you a key, could you start it? Is the key what starts it? Should you turn it like a car key? Is there a difference between turning it left or right? Would you be an idiot if I handed you the manual and after reading it for a week, you made mistakes attempting to start it. If you read the manual, highlighted all the items you thought were important, had 10 questions about things you didn't understand, would you find it justified if I said to you, NEXT time you want to take a flying lesson read the manual. If you try to fly a plane, and you don't even know how to start the engine, you're an idiot. If you try to fly a UNIX box, and you don't even know how to start a network daemon, you're ignorant (AKA a newbie). If you're a newbie and you don't realize it, you're probably an idiot. If you whine repeatedly about how hard it is to become a non-newbie, and how newbie-intolerant the world is, you're probably a whining idiot. If you think you can "learn UNIX" by reading manuals for a week or two, you're wrong. Yes, it would be nice if all documentation was newbie friendly. But it isn't. Yes, it would be nice if everyone on every mailing list was infinitely newbie and idiot tolerant. But they aren't. Yes, it would be nice if newbies and idiots would refrain from posting stupid, inflammatory, and/or off-track messages to mailing lists. But they won't. So what can we do? Experts/old-timers: be more tolerant of newbies and idiots most newbies will either catch on or move on eventually ignore them if you can't produce more newbie-friendly documentation Newbies/idiots: be more tolerant of experts and old-timers don't cop an attitude: your ignorance is not their fault ignore them if you can't avoid annoying the people most likely to have the answers you seek Everyone else: be more tolerant ignore those you can't tolerate -Dave
Re: Howto
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Scott D. Yelich wrote: Ok, so we've beaten the dead horse with the fact that MX records can't be CNAMES... so why does bind allow this? Go figure. for years bind allowed '_' in domain names. at one version they 'fixed' this and thousands of zone files around the world had to be fixed. Who is to say at some point in the future the server won't implement the checking. I guess bind doesn't check for this because it would be quite an expensive check to perform, given MX resords are cnames in a zone file don't have to refer to other entries in the same zone file. you could end up by performing a couple of thousand DNS queries every time a zone file were loaded in order to check this. Richard
Re: Howto
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Richard Letts wrote: for years bind allowed '_' in domain names. at one version they 'fixed' this and thousands of zone files around the world had to be fixed. Who is to say at some point in the future the server won't implement the checking. I guess bind doesn't check for this because it would be quite an expensive check to perform, given MX resords are cnames in a zone file don't have to refer to other entries in the same zone file. you could end up by performing a couple of thousand DNS queries every time a zone file were loaded in order to check this. urgh my fault for posting as soon as I come home from work. the last paragraph should have read: Since MX OR CNAME RECORDS in a zone don't have to refer to other entries in the same zone: you might end up by performing a couple of thousand DNS queries every time a zone file were loaded in order to check this. I know CNAME!=MX records.
Re: Howto
Wouldn't the person on the help line be just a bit negligent if they failed to ask. Do you have a learner's permit and are you seated next to a licensed driver over 18? No, I'm sorry, I really don't think it's GM's responsibility to make sure that everyone using their product is legally entitled to do so and is personally qualified to do so. In particular, I don't want GM to give me a driving test before they allow me to purchase a vehicle. Let me ask you this. If you got into an airplane, a Cessna 150, and I handed you a key, could you start it? Is the key what starts it? Should you turn it like a car key? Is there a difference between turning it left or right? No, I couldn't. Which is why I would not get in a Cessna 150 and attempt to fly it. I'm not fucking qualified to do it so I'm not going to attempt to do it. Can you grasp that concept? If I wanted to learn, I'd contact a qualified flight instructor who makes a living teaching people to fly. I would not post to the cessna-lovers mailing list and ask for instructions on how to start the engine. Incidentally, there are a number of qualified qmail instructors listed on www.qmail.org who make a living teaching people how to use and install qmail. shag = Judd Bourgeois| CNM Network +1 (805) 520-7170 Software Architect| 1900 Los Angeles Avenue, 2nd Floor [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Simi Valley, CA 93065 ...yours is not the less noble because no drum beats before you when you go out into your daily battlefields, and no crowds shout about your coming when you return from your daily victory or defeat. --Robert Louis Stevenson
RE: Howto
Care to add to the list? I'm going to make a website on things you should know, skills you should have, before attempting to install qmail. I'll devote a special section called Why not just point people to lwq (which, no offense intended, is probably infinitely better than a resource from someone who can't get qmail to work, plus the last time I read it, it didn't have any snide personal comments)? I'm sure that Dave would accept any worthwhile contributions that you think would improve it. Troy
RE: Howto
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Alex Miller wrote: Threats of law suits should I elaborate? rcpthosts... need I say more? ... anyway, wait until you get some idiot who wants to sue you because you are no longer an open relay. Scott
RE: Howto
Ok, as a flying newbie I can understand what you are trying to say. As someone more experienced let me just explain that in reality, flying a plane is very different than driving a car. The physical skills are similar but the standards of access are quite different. It's understandable that as a flying newbie, you would think that handed a set of keys, it would be "up to you" to know how to use the plane. It just doesn't happen that way, at least not without hitting the news, as a declared hijacking. As a newbie to flying you shouldn't be expected to have a sense of this. The standards of responsibility are very clearly delineated in flying, in open source software mailing lists, I'm sorry there is no real comparison. The point I was making is that the analogy made of a person not knowing that a car is started with a key is simply not a good match to the situation that the analogy was intended to describe, someone attempting to install QMail according to the instructions. In the car situation, the person would seem like an idiot to most people on the internet today. Having difficulty installing QMail is not an idiot situation, much as the more aggressive folks would like to maintain. Installing QMail is much closer to attempting to learn to fly. The newbies preconceptions are often wrong, and the more experienced people know it. The newbie flyer is NOT idiotic for not knowing the difference between the starting an airplane with a key and starting a car with key. The newbie QMail installer is not idiotic for not knowing things that are not clearly described in the manual or presume knowledge that is not in the manual. The driver analogy was chosen to demonstrate idiotness to a degree which is very very rare, and comparing it to QMail difficulty which would be far more common. My guess is that the population in the U.S. of people who don't know what they need to know to install QMail as is on a system with a firewall already installed without assistance, and the population of people in the U.S. who don't know how to start a Cessna 150 even when handed a key, without assistance are very comparable. The population of people in the U.S. who don't know that you need a key to start a car is extremely small, and if you exclude people with Alzheimers, or other serious illness, almost non-existent among adults. Analogies have to be comparative. To compare something very common with something very rare is not a good analogy. My attempt was to repair the poorly written analogy with one that was comparable in population incidence. Incidentally, most people would describe their introduction to flying a Cessna as fun, maybe "the thrill of a lifetime". Compare that with installing QMail. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Racer X [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 5:14 PM To: Alex Miller; Dave Sill; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto Let me ask you this. If you got into an airplane, a Cessna 150, and I handed you a key, could you start it? Is the key what starts it? Should you turn it like a car key? Is there a difference between turning it left or right? Technically, if you try to fly a plane, and you don't even know how to start the engine, your instructor is an idiot, or you are paying for on a demonstration lesson. They might let you turn the key for the thrill, or even control the plane (mostly), but you wouldn't actually be able to start the plane unless you knew the correct procedure. When you first asked the question, the "instructor" was nowhere in sight (unless you are presumed to be the instructor). So let's not call the missing instructor the idiot here. If you're not sure if you know how to fly a plane, then you clearly DON'T KNOW HOW TO FLY THE PLANE. If you aren't sure if you know how to fly the plane and you insist on attempting to fly it anyway, then you are the only idiot. shag
Re: Howto
It's understandable that as a flying newbie, you would think that handed a set of keys, it would be "up to you" to know how to use the plane. I would? I know that planes are fairly complicated and dangerous pieces of machinery and that a pilot's license is required to fly legally in most parts of the world. If you or anyone else gave me the keys to a plane and said, "Take off," I'd politely return the keys and say no thanks. On the other hand, if someone held a gun to my head and said "Fly the damn plane," or if I was stuck on a desert island with just myself and the plane, I'm pretty sure that with a little work on my part, I could probably figure out how to start the engine and get the plane off the ground. In this case I'd have no choice but to figure it out for myself. Perhaps I wouldn't be able to land it, but given the choice between zero chance and some chance I'd give it a shot. Installing QMail is much closer to attempting to learn to fly. The Installing qmail is nowhere near as dangerous as learning to fly. Flying requires not only knowledge of theory but a large amount of practical skill, and a lack of skill has serious consequences when learning to fly. My guess is that the population in the U.S. of people who don't know what they need to know to install QMail as is on a system with a firewall already installed without assistance, and the population of people in the U.S. who don't know how to start a Cessna 150 even when handed a key, without assistance are very comparable. That doesn't mean that installing qmail is comparable to learning to fly a Cessna. shag
Re: Howto
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Racer X wrote: Installing QMail is much closer to attempting to learn to fly. The Installing qmail is nowhere near as dangerous as learning to fly. Flying requires not only knowledge of theory but a large amount of practical skill, and a lack of skill has serious consequences when learning to fly. It depends on your priorities. If you have an existing mail setup for a company (lets say you work for them), if the mail goes down, you're up to your eyeballs in llama doo-doo. If you're installing/upgrading a package on a live box that simply *cannot* go down, for any reason, then yes, its akin to learning to fly. Not that I've got my pilot's license... :-) .Shawn
Re: Howto
isn't that incorrect... I'm not prattling on endlessly about my ignorance. I mean, if you think trying to clarify things means that I'm ignoreant, so be it, but that's not what you said. Can we please drop this? Thanks jason
Re: Howto
"Jacob (Mettavihari)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have installed the program ucspi-tcp and I have installed the line from FAQ 5.1 in the ined.conf tcpserver -u 501 -g 500 0 smtp /car/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd Is ined.conf the system startup file ? If you mean "inetd.conf", no, it's the inetd configuration file. Inetd is a "superserver": it listens to various ports, and when it receives a connection on one, it invokes the appropriate daemon. How do I test if this has been propperly installed telnet localhost 25 When I do a ps -ax I do not get qmail-smtpd pid. That's normal unless there's an active incoming SMTP session. BTW, you really should use tcpserver from daemontools. Inetd doesn't work very well and is unsupported with qmail. -Dave
RE: Howto
"Alex Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, you really should use tcpserver from [ucspi-tcp]. Inetd doesn't work very well and is unsupported with qmail. Certainly on my system, smtp did NOT function when I placed the same command in my inetd as per the tarball instructions but when I installed the Memphis RPM, which uses the ucsi-tcpserver instead, smtp worked. In all likelihood, you botched the inetd.conf entry and/or didn't HUP inetd after updating it. The DJB tarball instructions give an example inetd.conf entry that doesn't work with every inetd in existence. Dan wrongly assumed that the installer could/would adjust the entry according to their inetd's needs. Is there a tarball for qmail that directs you to use and provide installation steps for ucsi-tcpserver. "Life with qmail" goes through a detailed tarball installation that uses daemontools and ucspi-tcp. See: http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#installation It also leaves you with a handy administrative interface that supports such commands as: "qmail start": start qmail "qmail stop": stop qmail "qmail stat": show the status of the qmail system "qmail cdb": rebuild the tcpcontrol cdb file for smtp "qmail restart": shut qmail down and restart it "qmail doqueue": tell qmail-send to try to deliver all queued mail "qmail reload": reread locals and virtualdomains "qmail queue": show status of the queue "qmail pause": temporarily pause qmail "qmail cont": continues paused qmail Also, if qmail doesn't support the inetd why does the install instructions say to install it that way? Inetd became unsupported after the release of 1.03. -Dave
RE: Howto
Well, I DEFINITELY HUP'd. In fact, in addition, I halted the system and restarted. Well, I don't know what "adjustments to my inetd's needs" are. If I recall, it specified that file locations of the programs, which were correct and the same on my system. So, I guess, in that sense, I "botched" the inetd setup for smtp on my system. What "adjustments" are required? Oh, wait, if inetd became unsupoorted after 1.03 why isn't it just stricken from the tarball docs? But I am curious. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 9:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Howto "Alex Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, you really should use tcpserver from [ucspi-tcp]. Inetd doesn't work very well and is unsupported with qmail. Certainly on my system, smtp did NOT function when I placed the same command in my inetd as per the tarball instructions but when I installed the Memphis RPM, which uses the ucsi-tcpserver instead, smtp worked. In all likelihood, you botched the inetd.conf entry and/or didn't HUP inetd after updating it. The DJB tarball instructions give an example inetd.conf entry that doesn't work with every inetd in existence. Dan wrongly assumed that the installer could/would adjust the entry according to their inetd's needs. Is there a tarball for qmail that directs you to use and provide installation steps for ucsi-tcpserver. "Life with qmail" goes through a detailed tarball installation that uses daemontools and ucspi-tcp. See: http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#installation It also leaves you with a handy administrative interface that supports such commands as: "qmail start": start qmail "qmail stop": stop qmail "qmail stat": show the status of the qmail system "qmail cdb": rebuild the tcpcontrol cdb file for smtp "qmail restart": shut qmail down and restart it "qmail doqueue": tell qmail-send to try to deliver all queued mail "qmail reload": reread locals and virtualdomains "qmail queue": show status of the queue "qmail pause": temporarily pause qmail "qmail cont": continues paused qmail Also, if qmail doesn't support the inetd why does the install instructions say to install it that way? Inetd became unsupported after the release of 1.03. -Dave
RE: Howto
"Alex Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I don't know what "adjustments to my inetd's needs" are. If I recall, it specified that file locations of the programs, which were correct and the same on my system. Read the inetd man page and compare the suggested entry to the syntax required by your inetd. If they differ, you'll have to figure out the necessary adjustments from the man page or perhaps by posting a message here. Yes, this means you'll have to actually read and understand the inetd.conf entry, rather than blindly cutting and pasting. I'm not picking on you. I'm an experienced UNIX system administrator, and I still blindly cut and paste on occasion..and it bites me now and then, too. The difference between the novice and the pro is that the pro realizes it was his mistake and the novice blames the writer of the documentation he was following. So, I guess, in that sense, I "botched" the inetd setup for smtp on my system. Look, we know qmail-smtpd *can* be run from inetd--lots of us have done it for years. The fact that you couldn't do it implies that you didn't do something right. That doesn't mean you're an idiot, but it does mean you botched the installation. It *was* you who modified inetd.conf, right? What "adjustments" are required? Oh, wait, if inetd became unsupoorted after 1.03 why isn't it just stricken from the tarball docs? Because that change alone is not sufficient to justify creating a qmail-1.04 or even a qmail-1.03.1. -Dave
Re: Howto
Well, I don't know what "adjustments to my inetd's needs" are. If I recall, it specified that file locations of the programs, which were correct and the same on my system. Just a small digression due to curiousity, but which do you think is the prefered/better way to run qmail-smtp, from inetd or from a startup script at boot time? Just my $0.02 . . . -Eric Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Howto
Read the inetd man page and compare the suggested entry to the syntax required by your inetd. If they differ, you'll have to figure out the necessary adjustments from the man page or perhaps by posting a message here. Now THAT is very useful. I made another mistake. I posted this problem at the time on this mailing list questioning wether something might be different about my particular Linux (Linux Mandrake - Redhat with KDE) installation. At that time instead of someone, saying, "yes, there are different flavors of inetd and you need do do a man inetd on your system and see how the syntax compares with that in the installation, and btw, that should be added as a note in the installation steps as well". Instead what I got was something to the effect, "Redhat is NO different than any other setup, they should all install from the tarball if you just follow the clear instructions - there is no 'magic' about your red hat setup". My mistake was to believe that response. No magic maybe, but perhaps a different syntax in the inetd that Redhat uses. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Howto "Alex Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I don't know what "adjustments to my inetd's needs" are. If I recall, it specified that file locations of the programs, which were correct and the same on my system. Read the inetd man page and compare the suggested entry to the syntax required by your inetd. If they differ, you'll have to figure out the necessary adjustments from the man page or perhaps by posting a message here. Yes, this means you'll have to actually read and understand the inetd.conf entry, rather than blindly cutting and pasting. I'm not picking on you. I'm an experienced UNIX system administrator, and I still blindly cut and paste on occasion..and it bites me now and then, too. The difference between the novice and the pro is that the pro realizes it was his mistake and the novice blames the writer of the documentation he was following. So, I guess, in that sense, I "botched" the inetd setup for smtp on my system. Look, we know qmail-smtpd *can* be run from inetd--lots of us have done it for years. The fact that you couldn't do it implies that you didn't do something right. That doesn't mean you're an idiot, but it does mean you botched the installation. It *was* you who modified inetd.conf, right? What "adjustments" are required? Oh, wait, if inetd became unsupoorted after 1.03 why isn't it just stricken from the tarball docs? Because that change alone is not sufficient to justify creating a qmail-1.04 or even a qmail-1.03.1. -Dave
RE: Howto
That is not an RTFM. The QMail documentation said nothing about inetd syntax being different on different systems. I posted an email saying that it didn't work, posted what steps I did, and even referred to the fact that this is what the manual said to do. Dave Sills response was most certainly NOT of the RTFM variety. Dave Sill brought information forward that was NOT in the qmail manual about the qmail installation procedures. RTFM is what you say to a person who apparently did not read the manual. If your installing QMail, and you print out each documentation file, (not that easy to do if your using windows, since the doc files are "identical" to windows listing ie. INSTALL and install are 2 files in UNIX and only one file in Windows), highlight the parts you need, make substitutions where appropriate (for example adding steps for Maildirs when a portion of the doc assumes Mailboxes) and then run through the tests, checking each step, making sure everythihng was typed in correctly and then being stuck with apparently one piece that doesn't work (smtp), writing up the problem, specifying what was done, isn't an RTFM situation. I quite correctly speculated that there must be something different, I didn't know what, about my Linux setup. I was told that I was wrong. I was told that all the qmail setups were the same, that it didn't matter onto what version of LINUX I was installing. It does matter, and it also matters wether you've installed a firewall. Telling me to run man inetd on my system and compare it to the syntax of the inetd is useful. It is not RTFM. RTFM means "don't be lazy, Read The F-- Manual". It has absolutely nothing to do with Dave's correct and helpful response. My instinct was correct, something WAS different about my environment because, following the directions exactly still didn't work. I needed to compare the directions, the M in RTFM, with the syntax on my system. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:15 PM To: Alex Miller Subject: Re: Howto On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 11:03:35AM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: I made another mistake. I posted this problem at the time on this mailing list questioning wether something might be different about my particular Linux (Linux Mandrake - Redhat with KDE) installation. At that time instead of someone, saying, "yes, there are different flavors of inetd and you need do do a man inetd on your system That's funny. Some idiot was suggesting that RTFM responses shouldn't be allowed. -- John White johnjohn at triceratops.com PGP Public Key: http://www.triceratops.com/john/public-key.pgp
Re: Howto
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:50:10PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: That is not an RTFM. The QMail documentation said nothing about inetd syntax being different on different systems. Oh please. This is like saying "I was looking in my car stereo manual and it didn't say anything about what kind of gas to use! So I tried using diesel fuel and it wrecked my engine!" Any competent system administrator needs to know the syntax that the base networking daemons on his operating system use, and if he doesn't know the syntax, he should at least know where to look it up. --Adam
Re: Howto
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 03:24:20PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: I have read the manual for each car that I have driven, as well as other vehicles, such as the Cessna 150, and Cessna 152 (those are both airplanes, those specify gas and many other things) You have a manual for inetd too. But instead of reading that, you complained that the qmail documentation wasn't complete. I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. By the time you're adding qmail to inetd, you're finished installing it. There are many ways of getting qmail-smtpd to listen on port 25, of which inetd is only one. An example configuration line for inetd was provided for your benefit. Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Huh? You want the qmail documentation to tell you how to use "man"? Why don't you save *everyone* some time, and go buy a copy of "UNIX for dummies". Here is a list of the base network system daemons, including firewall daemons you need to know the syntax of to install qmail: 1) inetd ..." Why don't you fill in the rest Adam. This sounds like a REALLY useful list, that would be useful to anyone on the list. I wish I had such a list beforehand. I wish I had such a list now. Can you please take your off-topic BS to some other list? --Adam
Re: Howto
Alex Miller wrote: I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. I believe the point was that you read your car manual to see where the power connects are for the stereo your also reading a manual for to install. Or, in other words, read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly while you read the qmail manual as you install it. Even better question, why are you not using the tcp server package anyway? Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Again, rtfm. If you do not know how to use or interact with the OS you run, then you should not be installing packages like qmail and many many others. Qmail should not be responsible for educating everyone in every flavor of *nix. Thats about like saying when you got your pilots license, they were responsible for teaching you how to fly all types of planes from a cessna to a 747. It's not bloody likely is it? You know, looking at it, this entire thread is rather ridiculous. The list works fine when used properly. Ask an intelligent question, get an intelligent answer. For those new to the scene, most of us are quite forgiving. I know I've had my share of idiotic questions. But I didn't go off on a rant about a new or better list when I didn't get an answer either. As I see it, you now have you answer, and also a rather loud opinion on your views of the list. Is it not time to end this rant and get on with something productive? -- Stephen Comoletti Systems Administrator Delanet, Inc. http://www.delanet.com ph: (302) 326-5800 fax: (302) 326-5802
Re: Howto
Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. NO. Why don't YOU save US some time and read the manuals for your system first? Why is it OUR responsibility to tell you everything you need to know first? Do we need to teach you to read? To type? To learn how to use your own system's documentation? Shouldn't that be YOUR problem? "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. What if I don't have inetd installed on my system? That's not such a silly question anymore, given people's feelings about security and the crappiness of inetd. Plenty of people haven't run inetd (myself among them) and there are systems that ship without inetd. Not many, sure, but they're out there. What if the man pages are screwed up or not installed? At what point will you stop telling the user the answer and just tell him that he'll need to know the answer before proceeding? Here is a list of the base network system daemons, including firewall daemons you need to know the syntax of to install qmail: 1) inetd "Firewall daemons" really don't have anything to do with qmail directly, and inetd isn't necessary for qmail to run. Also, what happens when you "need" some daemon on one system but not on another? Why don't you fill in the rest Adam. This sounds like a REALLY useful list, that would be useful to anyone on the list. I wish I had such a list beforehand. I wish I had such a list now. That's really great. I'm glad you think it's useful and that you wish you had it. I wish I had a million bucks, but sending emails with wishes isn't gonna get it done. If you want that list maybe you should work on it yourself, although plenty of other people have posted FAQs and checklists in the past that you might find somehow useful if you bother to look. shag = Judd Bourgeois| CNM Network +1 (805) 520-7170 Software Architect| 1900 Los Angeles Avenue, 2nd Floor [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Simi Valley, CA 93065 ...yours is not the less noble because no drum beats before you when you go out into your daily battlefields, and no crowds shout about your coming when you return from your daily victory or defeat. --Robert Louis Stevenson
RE: Howto
Even better question, why are you not using the tcp server package anyway? I am, I installed the memphis RPM, which uses the tcp server package. When I first started, I downloaded the tarball, read everything, did everything, but smtp wasn't working. Finally, I installed the Memphis RPM, I noticed immediate differences. 1) First, there is no rc file in /var/qmail. 2) There were additional daemons running, particularly the tcp server. 3) My rc#.d directories were filled with special scripts. 4) The alias folder had MANY .qmail files rather than the 3 specified in the tarball distribution. (Oddly they all point to root, which according to the docs is a no-no) None of this was like the tarball distribution. Of course, I must have been an idiot to notice these differences since everyone knows that an rpm is no different than a tarball distribution (I learned that from this list!) There was another difference. SMTP was working, whereas it wasn't in the tarball. So, I have no great affection for inetd. I still cannot run pop remotely, but that's something else. read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly What exactly is a "Linux Manual", do I type "man linux" at the keyboard. Do I throw away my two books titled "how to set up a Linux Internet Server" or "Linux System Administration", in favor of one called "Linux Manual" Or should I throw away the stuff I read on the internet that convinced me that I should go with QMail rather than Sendmail like: "QMail is modular and built with security in mind." "QMail is faster than sendmail" "QMail handles virtualhosts easily" "EZMLM is built on top of QMail" So, what Linux Manual are you refering to? Alex Miller -Original Message- From: stevec [mailto:stevec]On Behalf Of Stephen C. Comoletti Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:44 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto Alex Miller wrote: I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. I believe the point was that you read your car manual to see where the power connects are for the stereo your also reading a manual for to install. Or, in other words, read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly while you read the qmail manual as you install it. Even better question, why are you not using the tcp server package anyway? Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Again, rtfm. If you do not know how to use or interact with the OS you run, then you should not be installing packages like qmail and many many others. Qmail should not be responsible for educating everyone in every flavor of *nix. Thats about like saying when you got your pilots license, they were responsible for teaching you how to fly all types of planes from a cessna to a 747. It's not bloody likely is it? You know, looking at it, this entire thread is rather ridiculous. The list works fine when used properly. Ask an intelligent question, get an intelligent answer. For those new to the scene, most of us are quite forgiving. I know I've had my share of idiotic questions. But I didn't go off on a rant about a new or better list when I didn't get an answer either. As I see it, you now have you answer, and also a rather loud opinion on your views of the list. Is it not time to end this rant and get on with something productive? -- Stephen Comoletti Systems Administrator Delanet, Inc. http://www.delanet.com ph: (302) 326-5800 fax: (302) 326-5802
Re: Howto
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 04:12:58PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: When I first started, I downloaded the tarball, read everything, did everything, but smtp wasn't working. If you did everything it would have worked. End of story. Please stop flogging the list with your mistakes. 3) My rc#.d directories were filled with special scripts. 4) The alias folder had MANY .qmail files rather than the 3 specified Wow, what a surprise. You got a *complete* installation of with all of the options thrown in. If you'd listed the rpm file you'd have noticed this before you completed the installation. in the tarball distribution. (Oddly they all point to root, which according to the docs is a no-no) Really? Did you bother looking in the .qmail-root? I thought not. None of this was like the tarball distribution. Of course, I must have been an idiot to notice these differences since everyone knows that an rpm is no different than a tarball distribution (I learned that from this list!) I think everyone knows that there's a lot of value added to the memphis rpm. Since you obviously don't appreciate that value, why don't you go back to using the tarball, since you seem to be angry that any of this can be done differently. There was another difference. SMTP was working, whereas it wasn't in the tarball. So, I have no great affection for inetd. So did you think to keep your old installation around and compare what was done differently in the rpm from what you did? Obviously you did something wrong. What was it? I still cannot run pop remotely, but that's something else. It's the same thing: you're doing something wrong. Take an hour or two and look at how the qmail-pop3d works and notice that there are many components that you can test independantly to verify a failure. read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly What exactly is a "Linux Manual", do I type "man linux" at the keyboard. Do I throw away my two books titled "how to set up a Linux Internet Server" or "Linux System Administration", in favor of one called "Linux Manual" You're only making yourself look stupid here. Or should I throw away the stuff I read on the internet that convinced me that I should go with QMail rather than Sendmail like: "QMail is modular and built with security in mind." "QMail is faster than sendmail" "QMail handles virtualhosts easily" "EZMLM is built on top of QMail" What, from your experience, in any way contradicts any of this? Between your whining I don't see the first statement to contradict any of this. So, what Linux Manual are you refering to? Did you read those good things in your linux manual (note the lower case - I am in no way referring to a proper noun. Neither is anyone else)? If so then it's a pretty good manual. I think the only problem is that the writer of the manual (note lower case again) can't pick his/her readers. -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one.
RE: Howto
You have a manual for inetd too. But instead of reading that, you complained that the qmail documentation wasn't complete. What are you talking about? I read everything I could find. When, FINALLY, Dave Sill said (contrary to the silly statements made on the same subject at the time) that I must have blundered and typed in the commands into inetd according to the syntax in the documentation but that if I compared the syntax in the manual with the syntax described in my "man inetd" that would probably point out the difference, I was very pleased that he said something useful and factual. Dave was correct. The statements made prior to this that QMail installs the same on every Linux system, that there is no magic on the redhat systems that make installing QMail different is just hot air. Inetd along with other components of a unix system can be different, in syntax and may be replaced with different ones. Wether you like it or not, there is going to be a new set of install documents for QMail. Cybergood, my not-for-profit business is going to make a Linux distribution with manual so that not-for-profits can for the price of a computer and monthly connect charges set up the following: 1) Debian Linux 2) An apache web server 3) QMail (installed by hand using well-written instructions using whatever method DJB's licensing permits) 4) IMAP 5) EZMLM (same licensing caveat) 6) PostgreSQL 7) MySQL (possibly not, if not sufficiently open-source) 8) Php 9) DNS 10) Usenet news service 11) Web templates 12) A wide family of PHP based web utilities, IMAP mail, w-agora forums, web-based page editing. The goal is for Mary, a computer literate person running a volunteer organization called vegandelights can set install Linux, connect to the internet with a DSL line, cable modem, or colocation setup, register several vegan related domains using her own dns, create database driven full-featured web sites for her organization's members, create many mailing lists integrated with her own news server, and web based archiver, all by following the clear instructions. And then she can tell her not-for-profit friends, "gee, it was pretty straightforward, I just followed the instructions, and I didn't have to pay for any of the software." Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Adam D. McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:36 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: Adam D. McKenna; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 03:24:20PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: I have read the manual for each car that I have driven, as well as other vehicles, such as the Cessna 150, and Cessna 152 (those are both airplanes, those specify gas and many other things) You have a manual for inetd too. But instead of reading that, you complained that the qmail documentation wasn't complete. I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. By the time you're adding qmail to inetd, you're finished installing it. There are many ways of getting qmail-smtpd to listen on port 25, of which inetd is only one. An example configuration line for inetd was provided for your benefit. Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Huh? You want the qmail documentation to tell you how to use "man"? Why don't you save *everyone* some time, and go buy a copy of "UNIX for dummies". Here is a list of the base network system daemons, including firewall daemons you need to know the syntax of to install qmail: 1) inetd ..." Why don't you fill in the rest Adam. This sounds like a REALLY useful list, that would be useful to anyone on the list. I wish I had such a list beforehand. I wish I had such a list now. Can you please take your off-topic BS to some other list? --Adam
Re: Howto
Alex Miller wrote: read your linux manual to learn how to use your What exactly is a "Linux Manual", do I type "man linux" at the keyboard. Do I throw away my two books titled "how to set up a Linux Internet Server" or "Linux System Administration", in favor of one called "Linux Manual" Or should I throw away the stuff I read on the internet that convinced me that I should go with QMail rather than Sendmail like: "QMail is modular and built with security in mind." "QMail is faster than sendmail" "QMail handles virtualhosts easily" "EZMLM is built on top of QMail" So, what Linux Manual are you refering to? Please give me a break. Thats nit picking. You know darn well what was meant by linux manual. I guess we need to put everything in the most simple terms for those that are apparently challenged or are just ignorant? You need to lighten up, take a break, and relax. Your taking this all way to serously. What I said, and what was implied is that you are running two packages (linux as the os, qmail for mail). You need to understand both packages, but more importantly you need to understand the OS itself before you can add packages like qmail. That linux comes with sendmail means nothing. The facts showing qmails track record, and those items you read on the internet are valid and still stand. They have no impact whatsoever on the fact that they mean *nothing* if you dont understand the system you are trying to install them on. A poorly setup or improperly setup qmail is as much a nightmare as any sendmail rpm out of the box. You can not blame the fact that one os is different from another on a lack of docs from the package your trying to install on that os. If you still are unable to find any linux docs, here are a few sites. It took me all of a minute or 2 to get these. I'm sure any Sys admin with a clue could have found this information just as quickly. Here is your manual. Do with it what you will. http://www.troutman.org/linux/ http://www.linux.org/help/index.html http://www.linux.org/help/ldp.html Alex Miller -Original Message- From: stevec [mailto:stevec]On Behalf Of Stephen C. Comoletti Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:44 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto Alex Miller wrote: I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. I believe the point was that you read your car manual to see where the power connects are for the stereo your also reading a manual for to install. Or, in other words, read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly while you read the qmail manual as you install it. Even better question, why are you not using the tcp server package anyway? Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Again, rtfm. If you do not know how to use or interact with the OS you run, then you should not be installing packages like qmail and many many others. Qmail should not be responsible for educating everyone in every flavor of *nix. Thats about like saying when you got your pilots license, they were responsible for teaching you how to fly all types of planes from a cessna to a 747. It's not bloody likely is it? You know, looking at it, this entire thread is rather ridiculous. The list works fine when used properly. Ask an intelligent question, get an intelligent answer. For those new to the scene, most of us are quite forgiving. I know I've had my share of idiotic questions. But I didn't go off on a rant about a new or better list when I didn't get an answer either. As I see it, you now have you answer, and also a rather loud opinion on your views of the list. Is it not time to end this rant and get on with something productive? -- Stephen Comoletti Systems Administrator Delanet, Inc. http://www.delanet.com ph: (302) 326-5800 fax: (302) 326-5802 -- Stephen Comoletti Systems Administrator Delanet, Inc. http://www.delanet.com ph: (302) 326-5800 fax: (302) 326-5802
RE: Howto
On 01-Jul-99 Alex Miller wrote: Wether you like it or not, there is going to be a new set of install documents for QMail. Cybergood, my not-for-profit business is going to make a Linux distribution with manual so that not-for-profits can for the price of a computer and monthly connect charges set up the following: Shouldn't you first learn something about unix? You could probably do well with unix for dummies (as someone else already pointed out). 6) PostgreSQL So the PostgreSQL folks are your next target, huh? Gee, I can't wait. Vince. -- == Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flame-mail: /dev/null # include std/disclaimers.h TEAM-OS2 Online Campground Directoryhttp://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstorehttp://www.cloudninegifts.com ==
RE: Howto
I never said I didn't understand linux. I said I don't know what Adam's "basic networking daemons" knowledge of which are required to install qmail. The current list stands at 2, inetd, and tcpserver. I'm sure there are more but Adam's not saying anything other than saying that they exist. I can certainly come up with a list of general unix skills that someone should have to install qmail. That's much easier. I am not a mind reader though, and don't know Adam's secret list. Here are the skills I think someone should have. How to untar tarballs. How to use RPM binary installs (well not for qmail actually) How to use RPM source installs How to use less. How to use chmod. How to use chown. How to use man. How to use export. Understanding file permissions. How to use rc.local If someone already knows these things, they probably know enough to install qmail currently, although if they have a firewall, they might not get pop3 working easily. If they have to study up on these things they probably don't have a broad enough knowledge to do it without a lot of trouble. Care to add to the list? I'm going to make a website on things you should know, skills you should have, before attempting to install qmail. I'll devote a special section called Adam's famous "basic networking daemons" that you must understand to install qmail (or something like that, I'll be sure to quote Adam verbatim so everyone will give him proper credit) Alex Miller -Original Message- From: stevec [mailto:stevec]On Behalf Of Stephen C. Comoletti Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:16 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto Alex Miller wrote: read your linux manual to learn how to use your What exactly is a "Linux Manual", do I type "man linux" at the keyboard. Do I throw away my two books titled "how to set up a Linux Internet Server" or "Linux System Administration", in favor of one called "Linux Manual" Or should I throw away the stuff I read on the internet that convinced me that I should go with QMail rather than Sendmail like: "QMail is modular and built with security in mind." "QMail is faster than sendmail" "QMail handles virtualhosts easily" "EZMLM is built on top of QMail" So, what Linux Manual are you refering to? Please give me a break. Thats nit picking. You know darn well what was meant by linux manual. I guess we need to put everything in the most simple terms for those that are apparently challenged or are just ignorant? You need to lighten up, take a break, and relax. Your taking this all way to serously. What I said, and what was implied is that you are running two packages (linux as the os, qmail for mail). You need to understand both packages, but more importantly you need to understand the OS itself before you can add packages like qmail. That linux comes with sendmail means nothing. The facts showing qmails track record, and those items you read on the internet are valid and still stand. They have no impact whatsoever on the fact that they mean *nothing* if you dont understand the system you are trying to install them on. A poorly setup or improperly setup qmail is as much a nightmare as any sendmail rpm out of the box. You can not blame the fact that one os is different from another on a lack of docs from the package your trying to install on that os. If you still are unable to find any linux docs, here are a few sites. It took me all of a minute or 2 to get these. I'm sure any Sys admin with a clue could have found this information just as quickly. Here is your manual. Do with it what you will. http://www.troutman.org/linux/ http://www.linux.org/help/index.html http://www.linux.org/help/ldp.html Alex Miller -Original Message- From: stevec [mailto:stevec]On Behalf Of Stephen C. Comoletti Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:44 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto Alex Miller wrote: I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. I believe the point was that you read your car manual to see where the power connects are for the stereo your also reading a manual for to install. Or, in other words, read your linux manual to learn how to use your inetd correctly while you read the qmail manual as you install it. Even better question, why are you not using the tcp server package anyway? Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowle
Re: Howto
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 05:31:56PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: I never said I didn't understand linux. I said I don't know what Adam's "basic networking daemons" knowledge of which are required to install qmail. What you don't seem to know is that that second statement indicates the first. -- John White johnjohn at triceratops.com PGP Public Key: http://www.triceratops.com/john/public-key.pgp
Re: Howto
I'm really getting tired of this lists hostility. I thought perhaps it might have just been me or it might be that some people here are on the metal-rag but I'm not sure I can stand it any longer. I assume there will be an exodus soon. I have already seen people prove their ignorance and hostility repeatedly on this list -- but it will be amusing to see yet another round. I do have stuff that's probably a wee bit more on topic that I will probably ask once this round of insulting is over, but for the meantime, please have fun with the following: Adam -- You say one needs to be an expert with RPC (to install qmail). Fine. I'll admit it, I'm not an rpc expert -- I've only written a handful of original programs that used direct RPC calls and not just simple used calls built upon other already built RPC calls/routines. However, I am stuck... I need to protect my system, that is, my qmail system, against unauthorized use of qmail/RPC (they're related, eh?). Since you have installed qmail -- this means that you are an an expert with RPC and I beseech you for help! Since we've all been amused at the file ownership/permissions discussion, the cc/gcc (conf-cc/conf-ld) ongoing debate, ipfilter on Solaris 7, I'll throw this into the fire: I would like to know: (1) What RPC is open on my system[s] -- ie: how to get a list and (2) How to prevent unauthorized use of this RPC system, specifically with ipfilter and Solaris 7 as well as other OS builtin features. Now, Adam has already stated that installing qmail has a prerequisite that one must be an expert with rpc -- so this must be on topic... so I don't want to hear about that. Please, Adam, enlighten me. Scott
RE: Howto
Alex, Don't be too hard on DJB. Dan made an incorrect assumption in the tarball documentation. He assumed that the user installing qmail was a knowledgeable system administrator. As Linux becomes more popular and more people begin using it, the number of users who don't know the ins and outs of system administration increase dramatically. That is not a GOOD THING. Most system administrators know that inetd comes in "flavors" and make any necessary adjustments to inetd.conf examples for their particular flavor. The "unwashed masses" beginning to use qmail don't have the knowledge necessary to make these adjustments and as is often the case, the expert failed to realize the impact that this "knowledge gap" would have. Who among us has never made "that" mistake to a lesser or greater degree. I use Linux as an example because that's where the majority of these problems come from, but the point is equally valid with any *NIX. There's no reason to get upset with Dan's documentation simply because you're ignorant of the subtle differences between one "flavor" of inetd and another. That would be like me getting mad at the writer of the Space Shuttle documentation: I don't know enough about the Space Shuttle to land it even if I RTFM. However, you are right in that software documentation in general sucks. Dave Sill is working very hard on an excellent qmail documentation project. He could give pointers to the Micro$oft people. If you've never had the opportunity to wade through the vast morass of inaccurate, misleading and poorly written gobbledy-gook that they call documentation, I invite you to indulge yourself. If you're feeling really masochistic, read the O'Reilly Sendmail manual. --- At 03:24 PM 7/1/99 , you wrote: Every car manual specifies what kind of gas you use, haven't you read yours? I no longer drive my own car, I ride a bianchi and do most of my own repairs. I have read the manual for each car that I have driven, as well as other vehicles, such as the Cessna 150, and Cessna 152 (those are both airplanes, those specify gas and many other things) I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. I didn't read the wrong manual. I read the correct one, and more. That's my habit. This particular manual even makes a point of including many steps which are "read this document" as an actual step. Which of course I did. It's good advice. Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Here is a list of the base network system daemons, including firewall daemons you need to know the syntax of to install qmail: 1) inetd ..." Why don't you fill in the rest Adam. This sounds like a REALLY useful list, that would be useful to anyone on the list. I wish I had such a list beforehand. I wish I had such a list now. Or were you just talking. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Adam D. McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 2:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:50:10PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: That is not an RTFM. The QMail documentation said nothing about inetd syntax being different on different systems. Oh please. This is like saying "I was looking in my car stereo manual and it didn't say anything about what kind of gas to use! So I tried using diesel fuel and it wrecked my engine!" Any competent system administrator needs to know the syntax that the base networking daemons on his operating system use, and if he doesn't know the syntax, he should at least know where to look it up. --Adam __ NovaMetrix Development Robbie Walker, head muckety-muck and programmer P.O. Box 635 or910-653-4006 106-B S. Main St 800-773-5647 Tabor City, NC 28463 910-653-2052 FAX
Re: Howto
I just can't stand listening to Scott prattle on endlessly about his own ignorance anymore... Scott D. Yelich writes: Has anyone else noticed anything similar to the following on this list: (1) DJB writes his software his way and he doesn't give a sh!t about anyone else's opinion when he is set in his? Even if he is wrong? Even if he has been proven to be wrong? Even if he's being obstinant, apparently, for no other reason other than to be stubbornly fascist? and it's now rubbing off on the list? Dan writes his software the best way. Please enlighten us as to where he is wrong. You seem to have all the answers, please let us know. (2) This list expects everyone to be an expert in everything (including qmail) inherently and has this as a prerequesite to existing... Anyone who chooses to try to install and configure ANY MTA must by definition be an expert system administrator and able to "go with the flow" and think on their feet. RTFM and when that doesn't work, RTFS. Scott, you have proven over and over that you attempt to do things without even referencing the FAQ. I followed the directions in the FAQ and the various INSTALL, etc. files and had absolutely no trouble installing and running qmail in under 3 hours on Solaris 7. Yes, I even found the conf-cc and conf-ld files and fixed them myself without pissing and moaning on the list---in fact, I wasn't aware of the list when I did it! (3) If one is not an expert and speaks publically on the list, the overly belligerent and pugnacious list has a habit of tearing them a new virtual bodily orifice? The overly beligerence and pugnacity is all in your mind. You come here and prove your ignorance every time you post. You respond to simple answers with anger and whining. You have shown no desire to even try to fix what you perceive to be mistakes. Put up or shut up. (4) If that same person then makes anything less than a godly effort to solve every problem affecting the universe, oh and qmail as well, then they are berated into the oblivion of obscurity? You don't need to make a godly effort. Just show by your own words that you have some understanding of the concepts involved in networking. You continually express ignorance of the most basic subjects, such as how to search through the RFC index to find the appropriate RFC. Everyone has to go through the same pain---the index just isn't that good. But, the RFC's themselves are fairly small and it really doesn't take much time to find what you need. You obviously do not want to spend any of your oh so precious time doing any research on your own though. (5) If that person returns from oblivion with suggestions that just might make qmail a better place - they are then subjected to repeated ridicule for any perceived weakness in their character simply for attempting to help make the (qmail) world a better place? You have never made a single constructive suggestion on this list. I am waiting for your first suggestion. What is it? On a personal note, I'm sure you're all just so excited to be reading all of this -- but I'm not talking to myself here. Up until now I've generally been attempting to be nice on this list... I help those who post questions with private messages so I don't have to receive sh!t from the vultures that circle their mboxes waiting for qmail list fodder to arrive -- like ant lions waiting for the ant members of this mailing list to post. I stated before that if (so many) people keep saying the same thing[s] over and over about qmail and specifically its documentation problems or the qmail list, that just perhaps there might just be something that may need attention somewhere. If DJB refuses to be reasonable, it doesn't mean the rest either have to be insane zealots or be converted -- some people aren't in this for the Jihad of the those who feel they are mentally superior. Although people may not appreciate my (repeated) questions -- this is an open forum -- I do not deserve to be treated as I have and neither does anyone else who has received the typical and appalling treatment this list lashes out repeatedly. Alex, you do please continue to learn about your system and try to help others. Do not let this list get you down convince you otherwise. Does anyone have the url for postfix handy? People that I've been speaking with to try to get qmail help tell me that they've given up on qmail and this list and have been quite happy with postfix. Scott /Joe
RE: Howto
Actually the dialogue way back went something more like this. "My smtp inted entry isn't working. It failes on the test.RECEIVE although all the test.deliver tests faild. This is what I typed (blah blah), and this is what the manual said. Could my system, Linux Mandrake (Redhat + KDE) be different, it says in the inetd file that smpt is not handled in inetd anymore" "QMail installs the same way on all varieties of unix, theres nothing special about REDHAT. There's no magic that just makes it go in REDHAT, why would it install on all these other systems and not yours" Later, recently, Dave Sill pointed out the reason why, which incidentally, ISN'T yet in the manual, not the inetd manual, nor any qmail manual. Not yet anyway. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:50 PM To: Alex Miller Subject: Re: Howto On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:50:10PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: That is not an RTFM. "My inetd entry isn't working!!!" "RTFM" -- John White johnjohn at triceratops.com PGP Public Key: http://www.triceratops.com/john/public-key.pgp
RE: Howto
Great, then you sound like a wonderful resource for the web page I'm making which will articulate in detail all the manuals, and required skills needed to install QMail. Alex -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:42 PM To: qmail mailing list Subject: Re: Howto On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 05:31:56PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: I never said I didn't understand linux. I said I don't know what Adam's "basic networking daemons" knowledge of which are required to install qmail. What you don't seem to know is that that second statement indicates the first. -- John White johnjohn at triceratops.com PGP Public Key: http://www.triceratops.com/john/public-key.pgp
RE: Howto
Don't be too hard on DJB. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to be hard on DJB. I really like his product and the actual behavior of qmail and ezmlm (not the installation) is virtually self-documenting. I mean look at how virtualhosts are handled, it's so elegant the way it meshes with .qmail- and how ezmlm just plops right on top of it, like it was there to begin with. I shudder when I think of trying to do some of the things with sendmail that are so easy to do with qmail. Can you imagine what it would be like of other basic utilites in Unix were that well designed. My major objection is the behavior of those on this list who seem to think installing QMail should be some sort of hazing experience. Anyway, my list will contain all the "good stuff" from this list forwarded on over. The web site I'll post will contain plenty about the "experience" of the QMail community. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Robbie Walker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 7:25 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Howto Alex, Don't be too hard on DJB. Dan made an incorrect assumption in the tarball documentation. He assumed that the user installing qmail was a knowledgeable system administrator. As Linux becomes more popular and more people begin using it, the number of users who don't know the ins and outs of system administration increase dramatically. That is not a GOOD THING. Most system administrators know that inetd comes in "flavors" and make any necessary adjustments to inetd.conf examples for their particular flavor. The "unwashed masses" beginning to use qmail don't have the knowledge necessary to make these adjustments and as is often the case, the expert failed to realize the impact that this "knowledge gap" would have. Who among us has never made "that" mistake to a lesser or greater degree. I use Linux as an example because that's where the majority of these problems come from, but the point is equally valid with any *NIX. There's no reason to get upset with Dan's documentation simply because you're ignorant of the subtle differences between one "flavor" of inetd and another. That would be like me getting mad at the writer of the Space Shuttle documentation: I don't know enough about the Space Shuttle to land it even if I RTFM. However, you are right in that software documentation in general sucks. Dave Sill is working very hard on an excellent qmail documentation project. He could give pointers to the Micro$oft people. If you've never had the opportunity to wade through the vast morass of inaccurate, misleading and poorly written gobbledy-gook that they call documentation, I invite you to indulge yourself. If you're feeling really masochistic, read the O'Reilly Sendmail manual. --- At 03:24 PM 7/1/99 , you wrote: Every car manual specifies what kind of gas you use, haven't you read yours? I no longer drive my own car, I ride a bianchi and do most of my own repairs. I have read the manual for each car that I have driven, as well as other vehicles, such as the Cessna 150, and Cessna 152 (those are both airplanes, those specify gas and many other things) I assume you made a typo when you compared my reading the QMail documentation when attempting to install QMail to learning to use your car by reading your car stereo manual. I didn't read the wrong manual. I read the correct one, and more. That's my habit. This particular manual even makes a point of including many steps which are "read this document" as an actual step. Which of course I did. It's good advice. Question: since, as you say, every competent system administrator needs to know the syntax of the base networking deamons his system uses, why don't you save us idiots some time. The following could be included in the QMail documentation since it is required knowledge. "To get the syntax of any system daemon, for example inetd, type "man inetd" at the system prompt. Here is a list of the base network system daemons, including firewall daemons you need to know the syntax of to install qmail: 1) inetd ..." Why don't you fill in the rest Adam. This sounds like a REALLY useful list, that would be useful to anyone on the list. I wish I had such a list beforehand. I wish I had such a list now. Or were you just talking. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: Adam D. McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 2:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Howto On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:50:10PM -0400, Alex Miller wrote: That is not an RTFM. The QMail documentation said nothing about inetd syntax being different on different systems. Oh please. This is like saying "I was looking in my car st
RE: Howto
Shouldn't you first learn something about unix? You could probably do well with unix for dummies (as someone else already pointed out). I looked at Linux for dummies at one point but didn't find much there I didn't already know. I'm all for primers in general though. My current collection: LINUX in a Nutshell (I use this one a lot) DNS BIND (studying it, pretty advanced for me) Linux Internet Server Tcl/Tk For Dummies (I've been very impressed with the shear brevity of TCL/TK programs) Linux Unleashed (one of the first ones I got, kind of cursory) Linux System Administration (I've referred to this one a LOT trying to get QMail installed properly) Programming Web Graphics with Perl GNU software (I'm interested in porting some of this stuff to PHP) The artists guide to Gimp Teach Yourself Gimp Core PHP Programming (my favorite, although I really regret PHP's lack of internal session handling like Cold Fusion - true it can be handled with your own database, but wouldn't it be great if it were built in!) SQL for dummies - an ok primer, when you want some of the commands not available on Access. I don't understand why Postgres doesn't yet support the alter table command) On to Smalltalk (I'd really like to see object-oriented code that isn't an afterthought) Sendmail Samba - Integrating Unix with Windows Internet - Relay Chat The Bash System Shell (I bought this one recently because of trying to get Mutt to work required handling the Environment variables) Any other books you can think of that are worthwhile, particularly those that might help with installing QMail. On this website that I'm making to describe the prerequisites to installing QMail, for each skill I would like to include man pages, and also book references that would be helpful. Alex Miller -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Vince Vielhaber Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:19 PM To: Alex Miller Cc: Qmail@List. Cr. Yp. To Subject: RE: Howto On 01-Jul-99 Alex Miller wrote: Wether you like it or not, there is going to be a new set of install documents for QMail. Cybergood, my not-for-profit business is going to make a Linux distribution with manual so that not-for-profits can for the price of a computer and monthly connect charges set up the following: Shouldn't you first learn something about unix? You could probably do well with unix for dummies (as someone else already pointed out). 6) PostgreSQL So the PostgreSQL folks are your next target, huh? Gee, I can't wait. Vince. -- == Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] flame-mail: /dev/null # include std/disclaimers.h TEAM-OS2 Online Campground Directoryhttp://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstorehttp://www.cloudninegifts.com ==
RE: Howto
Alex Miller writes: That is not an RTFM. The QMail documentation said nothing about inetd syntax being different on different systems. www.qmail.org now advises against using inetd. It loses too badly. -- -russ nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://crynwr.com/~nelson Crynwr supports Open Source(tm) Software| PGPok | Government schools are so 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | bad that any rank amateur Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | can outdo them. Homeschool!
Re: Howto
On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Dave Sill wrote: "Jacob (Mettavihari)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Installation section of "Life with qmail" is now complete. The subsection on startup files covers what you need. It assumes you have ucpspi-tcp and daemontools installed, too (both are trivial to install). See: http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#install-ucspi http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#install-daemontools Unfortunately, the link to the startup section currently points to the last subsection of the startup section (I used the same target), so until tonight, the best way to get there is to follow the #install-daemontools link and page down. Thanks, I shall download it todays, I have installed the program ucspi-tcp and I have installed the line from FAQ 5.1 in the ined.conf tcpserver -u 501 -g 500 0 smtp /car/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd Is ined.conf the system startup file ? How do I test if this has been propperly installed When I do a ps -ax I do not get qmail-smtpd pid. Jacob
Re: Howto setup host aliases (.qmail file for username@host.domain.com)
On Sat, 01 May 1999 09:44:45 -0700, Anonymous Individual wrote: Is there a way to setup a host alias when the host does not exist. For example, I am trying to setup email aliases for people's pagers. Yes, you set up a virtual domain (with MX record) for the host . See qmail FAQ. I would like to setup a .qmail file alias that contains [EMAIL PROTECTED] and have pages send pages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure I understand. If you want to forward the message, put "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" into ~/.qmail-888999222 (where "~" is the owner of the virtual domain). -Sincerely, Fred (Frederik Lindberg, Infectious Diseases, WashU, St. Louis, MO, USA)
Re: Howto setup host aliases (.qmail file for username@host.domain.com)
Thanks for responding. You were on the right track except it is the opposite of what I am looking for (Sorry if I was not very clear with my question). I want a mechanism to say [EMAIL PROTECTED] (I dont want people to memorize pager numbers. It is easier to remember [EMAIL PROTECTED] "pager" is a fictitious/pseudo host). So I am looking for a .qmail file that would contain the [EMAIL PROTECTED] entry). On Sat, 01 May 1999 09:44:45 -0700, Anonymous Individual wrote: Is there a way to setup a host alias when the host does not exist. For example, I am trying to setup email aliases for people's pagers. Yes, you set up a virtual domain (with MX record) for the host . See qmail FAQ. I would like to setup a .qmail file alias that contains [EMAIL PROTECTED] and have pages send pages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure I understand. If you want to forward the message, put "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" into ~/.qmail-888999222 (where "~" is the owner of the virtual domain). -Sincerely, Fred (Frederik Lindberg, Infectious Diseases, WashU, St. Louis, MO, USA) -== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
Re: Howto... disabled user, receiving mail
Well, First thing that comes to mind is to disable their account by
simply changing their password. This way, the account remains active,
but no-one can get in. Then, use the vacation software (as discussed
previously on the list) to send the relevant message.
If they want to reconnect, ask them for their password ("For your
security, mam"). They don't need to know that you never knew their
password...
Of course, there are probably better ways to do this, but I will leave
those to the guru's.
Igor Loncarevic wrote:
Hello,
I have installed on all of my servers qmail, and I was wondering
how to acomlishe this situations:
I want to disable user account (user is not permitted to login),
but I want from qmail to recognize this situation, and receive message
for user and automaticly send mail to sender with note that this user
is currently
disabled, etc. etc.
Also, sendmail, smail and qmail doesn't have feature like this:
if user doesn't exist don't even think to receive messages,
current behaivoure is: receive message, try-to-deliver, if there's no
mailbox or user, send apropriate message to sender. I want from qmail
little more inteligence here, to check before reeceiveing whole
message does
user/mailbox exist, if not, dont even receive message, just take from
sender field
from heder and send apropriet message...
tia,
i
--
Igor Loncarevic
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Allen Versfeld
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Wandata
"I hate quotations" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
