[RBW] Re: Real ride comparison: Joe Appaloosa vs Sam Hillborne vs Roadini?

[Jonathan D.]

That is my undertanding. The Roadini is a cheaper Roadeo because it’s made in 
Taiwan, less lugs and sloping top tube so need less sizes. It’s not clear what 
the tubing difference is but I believe Rivendell mirrors the ride 
characteristics in terms of geometry. The same goes for the Sam and AHH. Does 
anyone know if the tubing on the Sam and AHH is similar?  

I am also curious if the Rambouillet is more similar to the Roadini or AHH, or 
is it just splitting hairs?  Riv describes the Ram as similar to a Roadini but 
with more lugs. Sometimes I think I am just looking for differences to justify 
another bike. 

I have both a Sam and Ram and love both. I can’t truly compare ride difference 
since one is setup as a go fastish bike while the other is a commuter. 

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[RBW] Re: FS: Albastache, Nitto, Brooks, B+M, Sugino, MKS, Tektro, tubes, tires, etc.

[drew]

BM light is sold

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[RBW] A Homer Hilsen vs LHT - Will I notice a difference?

[Drew Henson]

Are there any surly LHT owners that also have an A Homer Hilsen? I'm 
curious how the ride really differs, in practical terms.  I currently own 
an LHT and it's been a great bike, but it's "too much" bike for me.  I'm 
looking for something that would be snappier than the LHT but still able to 
carry a 10-15 lb commuting load.  I've liked to looks of an AHH for a long 
time but am concerned that I'd be trading one heavy steel bike for another, 
without much difference in the ride when it comes down to it. 

Then there's the AHH vs Sam Hilborne debate I guess, which Rivendell 
brought up themselves when I emailed asking about AHH availability..  So if 
you've owned a Sam and an LHT I'd be interested in your experience as well.

I've browsed this use group a bunch but this is my first post, so thanks in 
advance for any info! 

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[RBW] Re: Set-up matters

[lum gim fong]

Looks real nice!!
Always glad to see a Rambouillet!!!

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[RBW] Re: Real ride comparison: Joe Appaloosa vs Sam Hillborne vs Roadini?

[Joe Bernard]

Yes. 

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[RBW] Re: FS: Albastache, Nitto, Brooks, B+M, Sugino, MKS, Tektro, tubes, tires, etc.

[drew]

Bump and price reductions. I THINK they are super reasonable considering they 
include shipping. Discounts still apply to multiples. 

-Clever Cycles Tire Levers/Chain quick link tool- really cool levers that link 
together to make a chain quick link remover. the company only sells these in 
sets of three, im offering one set here so you dont have to drop 45$- 15$ 
shipped
 
-HT albastache bars/ 8cm nitto dirt drop stem/ TRP RRL brake levers/ Shimano 
ultegra bar end shifters- all around very very good condition. newbaums wrapped 
and shellacked with gray jagwire housing. small cut in one of the hoods. 200$ 
shipped.  

-Brooks honey B17- i engraved my name in the back and then sanded it off. see 
photos. otherwise very good condition. 65$ shipped
-WTB 29x2.1 Nano tires- maybe 50 miles on them, essentially new- 45$ shipped

-B+M Eyc t senso plus dynamo light- a few months old.- 40$ shipped

-tektro cr720 cantilever brakes for one wheel-15$ shipped

-Vintage Shimano BR MC70 cantilever brakes for 1 wheel- good condition. these 
are good for conversions on older canti frames- 15$ shipped
-700c x 28-32mm tube. free with purchase over 15$ 

-wtb nano tire set. 29x2.1 newish- 45$ shipped. 

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[RBW] Re: Bags for light touring on my Cheviot - Sackville BackaBike

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am a big fan of these bags. If you think you might have a reason to take 
them on and off frequently on the trip, I would say look elsewhere. If you 
need huge amounts of room, or like lots of different pockets and dividers 
and such, don't get 'em. If you get bad luck and it rains hours on end 
every day, these may eventually let in some moisture. Hasn't happened to me 
yet, though. Otherwise, in my opinion, they would work just fine. And even 
if you think you would need to remove them, you may get around that by 
simply using a grocery sack or similar. These are tough and well-made and 
fun and simple to use. I have not done multiple nights with them, but only 
because I have not gone on a multiple night tour since I've had them (three 
or four years?). I like them so much I got a second pair, and the first 
pair was a splurge. Somewhere it is written that some colors are 
heavier/stiffer than others. True. My gray ones are more supple than the 
blue. I think olive is the other tough color, and brown is more like the 
gray.

I have used my Baggins as a handlebar bag. Works great!




On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 6:41:38 PM UTC-8, SeanMac wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I also have an old Baggins saddle-sack, which I think will be cool to use 
> as a handlebar bag.  Given all of this, I think that a set of rear bags 
> would leave me all-set for almost anything.  I've got my eye on the 
> Sackville Backabike rear bag.  From what I have read, people seem to be 
> very happy with these bags.  Am I correct in my opinion that these bags 
> would work equally well as gear-carrying bags on a shortish tour, and also 
> work to carry bags from the grocery store?
>
>
>

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[RBW] Bags for light touring on my Cheviot - Sackville BackaBike

[Deacon Patrick]

The Backabike is brilliant and simple and will do exactly what you want. They 
replace the TourSack panniers, which are one unit with both panniers connected 
my a middle fabric that rides on top of the rack. There are other differences, 
but not significant ones.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Bags for light touring on my Cheviot - Sackville BackaBike

[SeanMac]

Hi folks,

As the year is coming to an end, my thoughts are moving forward -- planning 
for some quality riding with my son (19 years old) next summer.

He and I rode the Erie Canal Trail together a few years ago.  We are 
contemplating a similar ride in 2018 - somewhere in New York, Ohio, Penna 
or Southern Ontario.  He will be riding my 1991/92 Trek 520.  I'll be 
riding my 60cm Cheviot. Though he is much younger, I am a stronger 
cyclists.  As a result, I will be carrying more of the load.  We will 
likely be out for 3 - 5 days.  Camping most of the time, but likely nicer 
lodging on the first and last days of the ride.  I'm trying to figure out 
how to best outfit my Cheviot for this endeavor (and grocery-getting duties 
on non-tour days).

I currently have a medium Sackville Saddlesack on my Cheviot.  In the near 
future, I will be adding a Wald basket (medium, most likely, to sit on my 
Mark's rack).  I also have an old Baggins saddle-sack, which I think will 
be cool to use as a handlebar bag.  Given all of this, I think that a set 
of rear bags would leave me all-set for almost anything.  I've got my eye 
on the Sackville Backabike rear bag.  From what I have read, people seem to 
be very happy with these bags.  Am I correct in my opinion that these bags 
would work equally well as gear-carrying bags on a shortish tour, and also 
work to carry bags from the grocery store?

I remember that Rivendell once carried a bag that was designed as a rear 
pannier - I believe that it was called a Tour Sack.  Is the Backabike bag a 
replacement?  If so, how are they different?  Will the backabike likely 
meet my needs or should I be looking for something else?

Thanks,
Sean
EA, NY

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[RBW] Re: Real ride comparison: Joe Appaloosa vs Sam Hillborne vs Roadini?

[ted]

Twenty five years ago I was racing in the sf Bay Area on a Nobilette built 
frame with down tube shifters, medium reach brakes and 36 spoke wheels with box 
section (albeit tubular) rims. In my mind it was a striped down racer then and 
I would still consider that bike one today.

Of course nothing RBW sells is a "stripped down racer" in the modern sense, but 
the Roadio is their "answer to speedy carbon road bikes that ..."  and the AHH 
is their country bike. Isn't the Roadini to the Roadeo as the San H is to the 
AHH, namely a more affordable bike that's basically functionally equivalent, 
and doesn't that make it RBWs more affordable striped down race bike?

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[RBW] PSA: 60cm Ram on SF CL

[Philip Williamson]

Public Service Announcement. This isn't my listing, but I thought someone 
might be interested. No relation to the seller, etc.  

This is a blue 60cm Rivendell Rambouillet, but it might be hard to find, 
since it's listed as a Rivendale Rambovillet.
The seller is asking $1500 for the complete bike, which is in Loomis, north 
of Sacramento. 
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bik/d/rivendale-rambovillet/6428687431.html


Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

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[RBW] Re: Several things I saw at Blue Lug

[jeffrey kane]

gawd, those guys are cool...

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 8:24:32 PM UTC-5, Takashi wrote:
>
> Last weekend I visited Blue Lug (a Riv dealer store in Tokyo), and saw 
> several things that might be of interest to people here.
>
> Frank Jones frames:
> Blue Lug has 3 stores, and I saw them in Kamiuma Store. I believe there 
> are also FJ frames in other 2 stores, but I'm not sure.
> Shop staff said the frames arrived last Saturday, and they have to inspect 
> frames to make sure there's no flaw, so building the bikes and handing them 
> to customers will be in January.
>
>   
>
>
> A beautiful Rivendell custom:
> Blue Lug also runs cafe near their Hatagaya Store.
> I was enjoying coffee there when I noticed there was a beautiful custom 
> frame displayed.
> A canti frame with S&S couplers. It should be ridden, not displayed!
>
>
>
> Another custom:
> This one is displayed in their Kamiuma Store. Looks like a road-ish frame.
> Staff told me that two custom frames are owned by a customer and are kept 
> by Blue Lug temporarily.
>
>
>
> A Rivvified Toei:
> A beautiful Toei bike with tons of add-ons, resembling Grant's bikes.
> Most Toei owners ride their bikes "clean-and-elegant" style, but the owner 
> of this bike was inspired by Rivendell bikes he saw and made his bike like 
> this.
> Grip King pedals, Boscomoose bars, basket...
> I can easily imagine other Toei owners sneering at this, but I personally 
> think it's great that the owner built a bike in a way that works best for 
> him.
>
>
>
> Hunqasticker:
> Buy some things at Blue Lug, and they will give you a couple of stickers.
> This one obviously is a Hunqapillar.
>
>
>
> Wish you all a happy new year!
> Takashi
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Several things I saw at Blue Lug

[jeffrey kane]

gawd those guys are cool ...

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 8:24:32 PM UTC-5, Takashi wrote:
>
> Last weekend I visited Blue Lug (a Riv dealer store in Tokyo), and saw 
> several things that might be of interest to people here.
>
> Frank Jones frames:
> Blue Lug has 3 stores, and I saw them in Kamiuma Store. I believe there 
> are also FJ frames in other 2 stores, but I'm not sure.
> Shop staff said the frames arrived last Saturday, and they have to inspect 
> frames to make sure there's no flaw, so building the bikes and handing them 
> to customers will be in January.
>
>   
>
>
> A beautiful Rivendell custom:
> Blue Lug also runs cafe near their Hatagaya Store.
> I was enjoying coffee there when I noticed there was a beautiful custom 
> frame displayed.
> A canti frame with S&S couplers. It should be ridden, not displayed!
>
>
>
> Another custom:
> This one is displayed in their Kamiuma Store. Looks like a road-ish frame.
> Staff told me that two custom frames are owned by a customer and are kept 
> by Blue Lug temporarily.
>
>
>
> A Rivvified Toei:
> A beautiful Toei bike with tons of add-ons, resembling Grant's bikes.
> Most Toei owners ride their bikes "clean-and-elegant" style, but the owner 
> of this bike was inspired by Rivendell bikes he saw and made his bike like 
> this.
> Grip King pedals, Boscomoose bars, basket...
> I can easily imagine other Toei owners sneering at this, but I personally 
> think it's great that the owner built a bike in a way that works best for 
> him.
>
>
>
> Hunqasticker:
> Buy some things at Blue Lug, and they will give you a couple of stickers.
> This one obviously is a Hunqapillar.
>
>
>
> Wish you all a happy new year!
> Takashi
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Real ride comparison: Joe Appaloosa vs Sam Hillborne vs Roadini?

[LBleriot]

Patrick, my Roadeo is built up with Campy 10 Speed brifters and lightweight 
pacenti wheels and supple tires.  My Roadini is built up with 8 Speed DT 
shifters, box rims and 32 pasela tires. So, the comparison is influenced more 
by components than frame design. I liken the Roadini to the San Marcos, Ram and 
Rom.

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[RBW] Re: Real ride comparison: Joe Appaloosa vs Sam Hillborne vs Roadini?

[LBleriot]

I haven’t raced in over twenty years, but when I did it was not with DT 
shifters, 32 Paselas, and 36 spoke box rims.  So, in my mind the Roadini is not 
a “stripped down racer.”  I can put fenders, lights and a rack on it, but that 
doesn’t make it a randonnuese or touring bike either.  YMMV.

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[RBW] Re: Set-up matters

[RichS]

Bruce,

Indeed, set up can change everything. Your Ram looks like a completely 
different bike. Along with the high bars I bet those wider rims and tires 
(26"?) give a significantly different feel. Did you ever get the Ram 
repainted?

Best regards,
Richard  

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 6:17:29 AM UTC-5, Fullylugged wrote:
>
> Some comments on another thread comparing 3 RBW models made me think of a 
> recent change I did. At the point where I want a really comfortable bike to 
> dink around on, I re-did my venerable old Rambouillet. The noodle handlebar 
> came off in favor of reversed mustache bars (which results in a much more 
> upright position with urban brake levers. The bar end sifters morphed to 
> the excellent Silver brand downtube items and the stock wheel set came off 
> for a rebuild and some wider rims with Panaracer 1 1/2" Pasela tires went 
> on. An old Brooks B-15 for a saddle. The Sugino XD crannk is replaced by an 
> Octalink Ultegra (super smooth spinning) I had laying around. I took the 
> bike on a mid week slower club ride last Thursday night and was surprised 
> at how much I enjoyed the ride. I also had no trouble keeping up. A 
> headwind might be an issue, but I can always slow down.  Crummy picture but 
> you can see it here.   Took just a couple of hours to do it all and it's 
> like getting a new bike. The weight distribution is toally changed and the 
> bike rides just fine in blue jeans if not going on a sweat fest. I later 
> added a large Acorn saddle bag, some Dinotte lights and a bell.  See ya, 
> I'm going out for a ride. 
>
>
> https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNZLRQDAlTX9IDm7cQEzubG1QohzLxEEsOA-Ciu

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William Henderson]

In rainy Portland I wear out my front pads about once a season. So far my
sintered disc pads are on track to wear out at about the same rate, perhaps
a little faster. The difference is that with rim brakes I can check their
status whenever I look down at a stop light. I know when they’re going to
wear out, and can replace them before it happens during a long wet ride.

Best,
William

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 3:28 PM Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> When was the last time you had to replace a pair of caliper brake pads on
> the road because you wore them out during a ride?  I usually get
> years-to-decades from mine.
>
> On 12/27/2017 06:19 PM, William Henderson wrote:
>
> Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch pad
> wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I have
> another reason to!
>
> Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken
> resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to be a
> bit more durable (and long lasting).
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh  wrote:
>
>> Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front
>> wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a
>> smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's
>> not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag.
>>
>> Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now
>> toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and
>> riding home gingerly.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>>
>>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Steve Palincsar]

When was the last time you had to replace a pair of caliper brake pads 
on the road because you wore them out during a ride?  I usually get 
years-to-decades from mine.



On 12/27/2017 06:19 PM, William Henderson wrote:
Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch 
pad wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I 
have another reason to!


Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken 
resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to 
be a bit more durable (and long lasting).
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh > wrote:


Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the
front wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the
caliper by a smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off
the backer plate. That's not a roadside repair unless you carry a
replacement pair in your bag.

Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace
the now toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the
rear caliper and riding home gingerly.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong
wrote:

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?




--
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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William Henderson]

Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch pad
wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I have
another reason to!

Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken
resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to be a
bit more durable (and long lasting).
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh  wrote:

> Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front
> wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a
> smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's
> not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag.
>
> Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now
> toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and
> riding home gingerly.
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>
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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[lum gim fong]

;)

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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[lum gim fong]

I'd love a 54 in orange but no $$$.
Too bad your not looking to trade for newish condition Bleriot with 2 new 
cockpit setups

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front 
wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a 
smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's 
not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag. 

Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now 
toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and 
riding home gingerly.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

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[RBW] Set-up matters

[Fullylugged]

Here is a Flickr link.  Maybe it will be better:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9535930@N07/38632126094

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Eric Daume]

Patrick, in my experience (Avid BB7, Shimano something mechanical, TRP
Spyke, and Shimano M6xxx hydros), the Shimano hydros never seem to have
significant rubbing, while the Avids and Shimano mechs seem to end up
rubbing quite often. Not much time on the TRPs yet to see where they land.

Has anyone ever actually had to fix a cable disc brake trail side, and done
this successfully?

Eric

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one
> place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad
> rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between
> hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this
> last category). Has this been your experience?
>
> For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable
> systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside
> to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7
> -- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real
> desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd
> neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent
> me over the bar.
>
> I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and
> when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of
> BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.
>
> So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment
> and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub
> problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
>
>> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
>>
>> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
>>
>> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads
>> when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed
>> them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
>>
>> - strong, progressive, etc.
>>
>> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they
>> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the
>> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just
>> to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
>>
>> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm
>> changing cockpit around quite a bit.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
>>> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>>>
>>> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
>>> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
>>> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
>>> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
>>> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
>>> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
>>> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
>>> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
>>> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
>>> *simpler*.
>>>
>>> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
>>> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
>>> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
>>> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
>>> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
>>> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
>>> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
>>> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
>>> rarely fail.
>>>
>>> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
>>> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
>>> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
>>> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
>>> they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered
>>> putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology,
>>> driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't
>>> care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings,
>>> etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly
>>> making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane
>>> parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was
>>> just around the corner.
>>>
>>> A few thin

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

I expect your difference in experience has less to do with the caliper 
(BB7s vs Klampers are similar designs) and more to do with your dropouts or 
perhaps your skewers. The problem is caused by slight differences in how 
the wheel is seated before and after you remove the wheel. With rim brakes, 
those slight differences wouldn't matter so much, but with discs the 
tolerances are so low (that's the whole point after all) that even a slight 
change in alignment will require you to reseat the wheel and/or recenter 
the brake caliper. I use Pitluck locking skewers (city life) and I wonder 
if that explains part of my difficulty – QR's would probably be easier to 
create a consistent seating. And perhaps some dropouts are better than 
others for this (thru axel dropouts being an obvious example). Finally, it 
could depend on your brake levers and how much deadband you are trying to 
achieve in your adjustment. Backing the pads off a bit will allow more room 
for slight changes in alignment.

I've had hydraulic disc brakes on other bikes and they don't address the 
issue of pad *alignment*. Where they do help is in adjusting for pad *wear*. 
Newish hydraulic calipers with dual pistons have a seal around each piston 
that is intentionally designed to slip as the pads wear and travel distance 
increases. This has the effect of managing the deadband so that the pistons 
and lever always move the same amount before contacting the rotor.  It also 
means that when you do change the pads you'll need to pry the pistons back 
to reset them to their fully out positions – otherwise rotor won't fit 
between the new pads. Without this feature (ie with all mechanical 
systems), you have to adjust the pads as they wear thin and effectively 
move further from the rotor. Not a big deal if it's just turning knobs, but 
it is a thing you have to do. It's worth noting that this isn't unique to 
disc brakes – you have to adjust rim brakes to compensate for pad wear too 
– but, less often. Again the system is made more sensitive to adjustments 
as a direct result of the low tolerances that are a feature of disc brakes.

Best,
William

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 1:31:19 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one 
> place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad 
> rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between 
> hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this 
> last category). Has this been your experience?
>
> For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable 
> systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside 
> to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7 
> -- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real 
> desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd 
> neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent 
> me over the bar.
>
> I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and 
> when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of 
> BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.
>
> So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment 
> and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub 
> problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Eric Daume  > wrote:
>
>> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
>>
>> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
>>
>> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads 
>> when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed 
>> them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
>>
>> - strong, progressive, etc. 
>>
>> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they 
>> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the 
>> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just 
>> to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
>>
>> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm 
>> changing cockpit around quite a bit.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! > > wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please 
>>> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>>>
>>> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their 
>>> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they 
>>> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is 
>>> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, 
>>> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or 
>>> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I 

[RBW] Re: Bullnose bars for long gravel rides?

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I struggled with numbness when I had them on the Hunq with cork grips. Changing 
to cheaply rubber grips eliminated the problem on short, non-aggressive rides. 
On the gravel and 4 wheel drive roads in Death Valley with several mile long, 
4-8% climbs/descents (at least with my skill and fitness, never a chance to 
relax), I had a lot of numbness again. I’ve only ridden off road on first, an 
early 90s Rockhopper (too small as set up) and then the Hunq, plus a couple of 
rentals in Colorado, and have always had numbness with aggressive riding. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Justin August]

Love my disc brakes. Low level Deore Shimano hydros. I’ve never done anything 
to them except change the pads - they came on the bike and I’ve swapped bars 
and wheelsizes and forks an never had an issue. Definitely the best brakes for 
any sort of “terrain” riding. I’m very happy the hydros came with the bike. 
Otherwise I’d have gone down the rabbit hole of mechanicals and finding “the 
best” ones. These are great and while I might choose Klampers on a more road or 
touring focused bike I’m not there yet.

-Justin

On Dec 27, 2017, 12:57 PM -0800, Eric Norris , wrote:
> I don’t have any disk-equipped bikes. I rode one a few times before deciding 
> not to buy it (for reasons that had nothing to do with the brakes.)
>
> One downside that would affect me is that the wheels would not interchange 
> with any of my existing bikes. I can move around wheels in my existing stable 
> a bit (I have 120mm, 126mm, and 130mm-spaced bikes with speeds between 5 and 
> 9), but the disk wheels wouldn’t work on any of my existing bikes.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> > On Dec 27, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
> >
> > I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
> >
> > - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
> >
> > - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads 
> > when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed 
> > them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
> >
> > - strong, progressive, etc.
> >
> > I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they 
> > would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the 
> > hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just 
> > to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
> >
> > That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing 
> > cockpit around quite a bit.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William!  
> > > wrote:
> > > > Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, 
> > > > please feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the 
> > > > discussion…
> > > >
> > > > The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their 
> > > > resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then 
> > > > they need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in 
> > > > general) is about applying technology for technology's sake, making 
> > > > bikes complicated, expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of 
> > > > performance or "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, 
> > > > I mostly built and rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not 
> > > > all new technology is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and 
> > > > they really do make riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's 
> > > > better if it makes things simpler.
> > > >
> > > > For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are 
> > > > new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do 
> > > > deal with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after 
> > > > that, you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that 
> > > > ride at night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels 
> > > > freeing, it feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed 
> > > > to feel. I sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and 
> > > > service, but in practice they last plenty long and like most sealed 
> > > > hubs the bearings rarely fail.
> > > >
> > > > So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, 
> > > > but they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes 
> > > > that needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy 
> > > > they seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They 
> > > > seemed like they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I 
> > > > never considered putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc 
> > > > brake technology, driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were 
> > > > chasing things I didn't care about: theoretical stopping power and 
> > > > "modulation", weight savings, etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things 
> > > > I did care about by heedlessly making bikes more complex: lines to 
> > > > bleed, new tools to own, and an insane parade of new frame and hub 
> > > > "innovations" that promised obsolescence was just around the corner.
> > > >
> > > > A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, 
> > > > I was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me 
> > > > walking away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the 
> > > > result would have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone 
> > > > would have saved me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one
place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad
rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between
hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this
last category). Has this been your experience?

For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable
systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside
to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7
-- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real
desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd
neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent
me over the bar.

I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and
when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of
BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.

So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment
and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub
problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.

Thanks.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:

> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
>
> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
>
> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads
> when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed
> them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
>
> - strong, progressive, etc.
>
> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they
> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the
> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just
> to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
>
> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm
> changing cockpit around quite a bit.
>
> Eric
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! 
> wrote:
>
>> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
>> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>>
>> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
>> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
>> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
>> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
>> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
>> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
>> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
>> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
>> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
>> *simpler*.
>>
>> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
>> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
>> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
>> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
>> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
>> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
>> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
>> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
>> rarely fail.
>>
>> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
>> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
>> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
>> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
>> they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered
>> putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology,
>> driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't
>> care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings,
>> etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly
>> making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane
>> parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was
>> just around the corner.
>>
>> A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I
>> was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking
>> away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would
>> have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved
>> me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked
>> enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute.
>> Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and
>> top tube on my Atlanti

Re: [RBW] Re: External bearing? Pah! Isis? Sheesh! Square taper? Pooh!

[Eric Norris]

I made two very valiant efforts to love moustache bars, but failed both times. 
I love the aesthetics, but just couldn’t get comfortable on them.

OTOH, I have a Pashley Guvnor with “North Road” bars that work very well for 
me, and I had a former bike with “Midge” bars (similar to moustache bars) that 
were very comfortable.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Dec 27, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> 
>  I do think that there is a good reason why "full" drop bars are so common 
> today, while moustache-type bars are not, but that's another thread.

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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That would require raising that aesthetically challenged stem even further. 
The seatpost looks fine, a handful plus; this post does not have a nice 
flow, and the color changes 2/3 of the way up, where the head is pressed 
in, making it appear shorter than it is. 

I remember in grade school using shadows and or things in photos with known 
measurements to figure out heights and lengths of other objects. Similar to 
the seat peg thing (though that could be placed variably, so you want 
something like the known size of a decal, or length of a lug. If it is 10 
in real life and 1 in the photo, you can use it to measure something on the 
same plane, like the tube it is on, then multiply by ten.

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:34:43 AM UTC-8, George Schick wrote:
>
>  I'm thinking this is a 56.  (judging from the saddle height vs. the 
> handle bar height in those photo's it looks like the rider might've been 
> better off on a 54, though)
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: External bearing? Pah! Isis? Sheesh! Square taper? Pooh!

[Patrick Moore]

e-Ritchie is in on it, apparently, so you know it will be good. Whatever
they produce, I'm sure it will be very nice and very expensive. I'd love an
heirloom frame, like the 1953 Rudge posted on iBob today, with a pair of
top line cottered cranks and top line quill pedals, to go with my AM hub,
about which I'll now shut up.

Eric: I was taken by those old "short reach, shallow drop" bars, and so
many models of them! I do think that there is a good reason why "full" drop
bars are so common today, while moustache-type bars are not, but that's
another thread.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Belopsky  wrote:

> yep, they are teasing. maybe they'll actually show something come the new
> year, right now all i see is hype
>
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[RBW] FS: OT Leather Goods.

[David B]

As an update, everything ordered has been mailed out, unless you asked to wait 
due to holidays/our-of-town. 

I’ve added a few more wallets that are new design prototypes  in the closeout 
listing: http://treetop.bigcartel.com/product/leather-goods-closeouts

Due to the large amount of orders from this group, I thought I’d mention that 
I’m doing a small run of machine stitched card wallets in a dark brown waxed 
leather. These are versions of a new line of designs, with prices being roughly 
half of their handstitched counterparts. 
These are nice on rides when you only need a couple cards and a little cash. 
Single slot (Lone Oak) - $10
2-slot (Twin Pines) - $15
Link for that is: 
http://treetop.bigcartel.com/product/machine-stitched-wallets-small-batch

Finally, I’m doing another batch of leather washers in 10 or 25-packs for 
$4.00/$7.50 mailed. http://treetop.bigcartel.com/product/leather-washers

Thanks!
David 
staying inside & keeping busy in River Grove, IL

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[RBW] Re: External bearing? Pah! Isis? Sheesh! Square taper? Pooh!

[Belopsky]

yep, they are teasing. maybe they'll actually show something come the new 
year, right now all i see is hype

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Eric Norris]

I don’t have any disk-equipped bikes. I rode one a few times before deciding 
not to buy it (for reasons that had nothing to do with the brakes.)

One downside that would affect me is that the wheels would not interchange with 
any of my existing bikes. I can move around wheels in my existing stable a bit 
(I have 120mm, 126mm, and 130mm-spaced bikes with speeds between 5 and 9), but 
the disk wheels wouldn’t work on any of my existing bikes.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Dec 27, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
> 
> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
> 
> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
> 
> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads when 
> needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed them every 
> year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
> 
> - strong, progressive, etc. 
> 
> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they 
> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the 
> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just to 
> enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
> 
> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing 
> cockpit around quite a bit.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William!  > wrote:
> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please feel 
> free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
> 
> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their resistance 
> to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they need to be. 
> So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is about 
> applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, 
> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or 
> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and 
> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not all new technology is bad. 
> Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make riding better. 
> My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things simpler. 
> 
> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are 
> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal 
> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that, you 
> never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at night, a 
> bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it feels like 
> less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I sometimes wish 
> dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in practice they last 
> plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings rarely fail.
> 
> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but they 
> were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that needed 
> tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they seemed, but I 
> did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like they primarily 
> belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered putting them on my 
> daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology, driven by racers and 
> extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't care about: theoretical 
> stopping power and "modulation", weight savings, etc. Meanwhile, they were 
> ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly making bikes more complex: 
> lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane parade of new frame and hub 
> "innovations" that promised obsolescence was just around the corner.
> 
> A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I was 
> in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking away 
> OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would have been 
> different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved me). It 
> rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked enough that 
> I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute. Two, the 
> aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and top tube 
> on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a lifetime 
> (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal extra cost. 
> Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense brake calipers on 
> the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly appealing. They are made by a 
> company that I trust to provide support and replacement parts for the life of 
> the bike. They prioritize simplicity in their design. They are unabashedly 
> mechanical. You can completely take apart and re-assemble them with basic 
> tools in a few minutes. And, in the name of dependability, they are 
> wonderfully overbuilt, just like my Atlantis. It'd 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Eric Daume]

I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:

- the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy

- once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads
when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed
them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.

- strong, progressive, etc.

I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they
would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the
hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just
to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.

That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing
cockpit around quite a bit.

Eric

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! 
wrote:

> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>
> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
> *simpler*.
>
> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
> rarely fail.
>
> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
> they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered
> putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology,
> driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't
> care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings,
> etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly
> making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane
> parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was
> just around the corner.
>
> A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I
> was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking
> away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would
> have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved
> me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked
> enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute.
> Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and
> top tube on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a
> lifetime (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal
> extra cost. Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense
> brake calipers on the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly
> appealing. They are made by a company that I trust to provide support and
> replacement parts for the life of the bike. They prioritize simplicity in
> their design. They are unabashedly mechanical. You can completely take
> apart and re-assemble them with basic tools in a few minutes. And, in the
> name of dependability, they are wonderfully overbuilt, just like my
> Atlantis. It'd be a stretch to say the Klampers are designed for normal
> people (as their price belies), but they are the closest thing I've seen so
> far. So, with some reservations, I decided to go for it. But I wondered,
> would it be an improvement on a bike I loved dearly that already braked
> just fine? Would they make my bike simpler or more complex?
>
> The answer for me is a mixed bag. Good disc brakes do make bikes simpler
> in meaningful ways. They are things technophile complexity-hawkers never
> talk about. Your bike and especially your rims stay far cleaner with disc
> brakes, so when you stop to change a flat you don't end up with filthy
> hands. That's a big deal, especially if you 

[RBW] External bearing? Pah! Isis? Sheesh! Square taper? Pooh!

[Patrick Moore]

>From a post on Classics Rendezvous  sit up straight, take a deep
breath, and hold on to your hat:


*Chater Lea is coming back!!!*


*https://chaterlea.com/ *

Patrick "now, *that *would fit with that AM" Moore

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Not me, not with discs, as long as you don't slam the pads when inserting
the rotor, or bash the rotor against a convenient rock or tree, and bend
it. I've had to adjust V brakes and cantis and single pivots more often in
such circs than discs. This is my experience, and I've learned to insert
the rotor very carefully.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> Do you have to adjust pads when you R&R the wheels?
>
> On 12/27/2017 02:52 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least as
> easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps easier. I'd
> call this one an easy draw.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
> wrote:
>
>> Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with
>> discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments
>> with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it
>> somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the
>> wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on
>> riding conditions and pad material).
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>>>
>>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
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[RBW] Re: Bullnose bars for long gravel rides?

[Eric]

I had a pair on my old S&S coupled Saluki paired with cork grips. 

Let me say, they looked great but were totally uncomfortable after a few 
miles. 

Maybe with Ergon grips they'd be better but forget pairing with cork grips. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

If your hands are getting dirty from the rims when you remove your wheels,
then you are collecting a lot of aluminum dust on the rims -- not at all
good! Even if the dirt were only road grit, still, that has obvious
implications for you rims' life.

I've probably fixed more roadside flats than any 10 (I might even say, any
100) other listers, given our goatheads, but 99 times out of 100 in dry
conditions, and I never got my hands dirty from rim dirt, only from the
usual tire dirt.

Patrick Moore, who is very quickly losing his knack for roadside
patching *because
of Orange Seal!*

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
wrote:

> Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with
> discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments
> with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it
> somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the
> wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on
> riding conditions and pad material).
>
> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Steve Palincsar]

Do you have to adjust pads when you R&R the wheels?


On 12/27/2017 02:52 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least 
as easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps 
easier. I'd call this one an easy draw.


On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
mailto:william.c.hender...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:


Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder
with discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for
me). Adjustments with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers
anyway) but you do it somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is
simpler but requires taking the wheel off and pads may wear out
faster (this seems to depend a lot on riding conditions and pad
material).

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong
wrote:

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?





--
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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least as
easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps easier. I'd
call this one an easy draw.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
wrote:

> Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with
> discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments
> with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it
> somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the
> wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on
> riding conditions and pad material).
>
> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I *mean;* I see no reason why Rivendell shouldn't stick to rim brakes ...

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Patrick Moore 
wrote: [...] I see no reason why Rivendell might stick with calipers;

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I think it was you who shared with me the photo of your wonderfully
repaired, disc-equipped, and repainted Atlantis -- as good as new and then
some, IMO.

I see no reason why Rivendell might stick with calipers; but I don't think
at all that adding a disc brake off road model to their line would
compromise their principles of simplicity of means to effective ends. In my
own experience, discs are superior for some conditions.

I've used discs now for thousands of miles on 3 dirt road bikes -- very
sandy and gravely soil, if that makes a difference; I've also used every
type of rim brake except some of the very rare exotic ones like the self
energizing types. Hell, I've not only used stirrup brakes (I wonder how
these would work, well set up, with Kool Stop pads?) but what I am sure is
a very rare and exotic hybrid system joining Bowden cables to the stirrups.

>From this experience, I conclude that discs have 2 important advantages,
one a great one in dirty conditions: no pads to collect grit and wear down
your rims; and two, not particular to dirt road riding: they allow very
light but strong rims, while adding weight near the center of the wheel.

A third, less important (to me) benefit is that they allow easy swaps
between wheels with rims of different diameter, if you know how to install
the rotor between the pads. Downside: You have to carefully adjust the
rotors to match the same pairs of pads, but this isn't that hard to do with
shims. I might one day buy a second, 650B X 80 mm wheelset to augment my
current 50/60 X 700C one; I'll be able to do this pretty easily.

Downsides: rub: IME, rub is more frequent than with pads of any rim brake
I've used, except for pads of very, very cheap stamped steel calipers and
very, very cheap V brakes, where pad rub can't be permanently removed.
OTOH, rub is very light and more annoying than an impediment. OTOH again,
I've set up BB7s so that the front pads rub only very occasionally (the
rears don't seem to at all), and this only after exceptionally dusty rides,
and then the rubbing goes away after a mile or 2 of pavement; or after a
thorough soaking; after which the rub goes away when it all dries out.
Again, just enough rub to make a light noise; annoying, not slowing.

By the way, in the recent BQ, Jan speaks of "ineffective" Avid discs; not
true at all IME, and I've installed and used at least 4 pairs. The BB7s are
no more powerful than a good pair of double pivot calipers with Kool Stops,
or the IRD cantis, Kool Stops, set up by Rivendell on my Sam Hill(these
were the best brakes in very respect bar none that I've ever used), but
they're easily as good as or better than any single pivot or centerpull
I've used, and I've used many, many, many of these. I use 160 mm rotors f
and r.

There is a trick to setting up BB7s: you have to attach the cable when the
arm is partially moved along its arc, not when the arm is entirely slack.
This removes a wee bit of torque, but allows much better pad clearance; and
again, braking power is as described.

After much research and listening to others, if I replace my ~2015 BB7 road
models, it will be with Spyres and not with any hydraulic system.



On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:41 AM, William! 
wrote:

> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>
> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
> *simpler*.
>
> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
> rarely fail.
>
> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
> they primarily belon

[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[George Schick]

Yeah, I have the exact same bike/frame from the same period and it's a 54. 
 Looking at the pics of this one, the distance from the pump peg on the 
head tube to the lower lug is greater than the distance from the peg to the 
top lug.  The distance on mine is equal for both.  Therefore, I'm thinking 
this is a 56.  (judging from the saddle height vs. the handle bar height in 
those photo's it looks like the rider might've been better off on a 54, 
though)

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 9:44:55 AM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Ny guess is 54 or 56. The tape will tell. Should be very easy to sell on 
> this forum!!

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with 
discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments 
with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it 
somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the 
wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on 
riding conditions and pad material).

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

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[RBW] Bullnose bars for long gravel rides?

[Davey Two Shoes]

I find they're great in the application of rigid MTB. However for road use I 
found them to be overly stiff. If I'm riding plush tires I want a plus bar. Or 
at least not one that's noticeably stiff.

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[lum gim fong]

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please 
feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…

The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their 
resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they 
need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is 
about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, 
expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or 
"efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and 
rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology is 
bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make riding 
better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things 
*simpler*. 

For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are 
new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal 
with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that, 
you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at 
night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it 
feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I 
sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in 
practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings 
rarely fail.

So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but 
they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that 
needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they 
seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like 
they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered 
putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology, 
driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't 
care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings, 
etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly 
making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane 
parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was 
just around the corner.

A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I 
was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking 
away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would 
have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved 
me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked 
enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute. 
Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and 
top tube on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a 
lifetime (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal 
extra cost. Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense 
brake calipers on the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly 
appealing. They are made by a company that I trust to provide support and 
replacement parts for the life of the bike. They prioritize simplicity in 
their design. They are unabashedly mechanical. You can completely take 
apart and re-assemble them with basic tools in a few minutes. And, in the 
name of dependability, they are wonderfully overbuilt, just like my 
Atlantis. It'd be a stretch to say the Klampers are designed for normal 
people (as their price belies), but they are the closest thing I've seen so 
far. So, with some reservations, I decided to go for it. But I wondered, 
would it be an improvement on a bike I loved dearly that already braked 
just fine? Would they make my bike simpler or more complex?

The answer for me is a mixed bag. Good disc brakes do make bikes simpler in 
meaningful ways. They are things technophile complexity-hawkers never talk 
about. Your bike and especially your rims stay far cleaner with disc 
brakes, so when you stop to change a flat you don't end up with filthy 
hands. That's a big deal, especially if you ever ride for practical 
transportation! Your rims don't wear our after a particularly hard wet 
season. You don't have to worry about stones in your pads or riding when a 
wheel is slightly out of true. You don't have to disengage the brakes or 
deflate to remove a wheel with a plump tire. With the Klampers at least, 
pad adjustment is easier than any brake system I have owned (which is 
important because you'll probably adjust them more often than rim brakes). 
Klampers have two big wheels you can turn with your fingers. It's more 
intuitive than adjusting brake shoes and it doesn't take any tools. Last 
but not least, disc brakes really do work better – not theoretically better 
but honest real-world better – in the rain. All these advantages are ones 
that make riding a bike nicer, simpler, more fun for just about anyone who 
rides a bike. Not perform

Re: [RBW] Re: Low Trail 61 cm Atlantis frame, fork and CK headset for sale - 700c

[René Sterental]

Hi Tom,

The short version of the story (you can look for the long versions by
searching for my old posts) is that when riding my Atlantis initially with
a medium saddlebag for my commute, I discovered it would shimmy when going
faster, especially on slight downhills. A search online for shimmy (first
time I encountered it) led to an article that someone had posted earlier
about curing the shimmy on their Atlantis with a custom low-trail fork.
That led to a search and education on what fork trail meant, a discovery of
Jan’s (and others) writings, etc.

Some time later, perhaps a year or so, can’t remember exactly now, I asked
Tom Matchak to make two custom low trail (40mm based on Jan’s
recommendations) forks for my Atlantis and Hunqapillar. That led to a
custom repaint job for both bikes as well. I never liked the gray/plum
original Hunqapillar colors, so I had it repainted in pewter and cream
which I loved, but on both the Homer and the Atlantis, I think the original
colors selected by Grant and painted by Waterford were so perfect I
couldn’t do better, so the custom details were the down tube panel and the
decals the painter (RBW official painter) had.

I loved how both bikes handled with their low trail forks, switched to
front loading and the rest is history... :-)

Needless to say, I’ve never had shimmy on the Atlantis again. Whether it
was the low trail fork, switching to front loading vs rear loading, a
combination of both or whatever, is not important to me. IMHO, the ride of
the Atlantis as I rode it, improved significantly. I’m not contesting
people who front load their bikes with the original geometry and say it’s
fine; this is not the point. But, for those who would like to get a better
handling (again IMHO) front loaded Atlantis, this is a significant
improvement.

BTW, I’m also including the original fork with the frame, so any buyer is
welcome to do their own tests and compare.

And, if current asking price feels too high, please feel free to make an
offer.

Happy (almost) New Year to you as well! :-)

René

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM tc  wrote:

> Hey René,
> I'm curious about the low trail fork, what you expected out of it vs. the
> stock fork, and how it ended up affecting handling of this bike.  Thanks.
> It's a beautiful bike.
>
> Happy (almost) new year to you, too!
>
> Tom
>
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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Jim Bronson]

To add yet another datapoint:  I also prefer riding Noodles to any
swept-back bar.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 9:23 AM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on
> drops.
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops.
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>
>
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[RBW] Set-up matters

[M D Smith]

Bruce-

Would you repost your photo or send it to me directly (Beewak-at-gmail)?  It 
shows an error when I click the link in your post.

I am going to be mixing up my ride soon and am seriously considering flipping 
my m-bars and would love to see how you did it and how the ergonomics look on 
your bike.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

-Mike in frigid Somerville, MA

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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[lum gim fong]

Ny guess is 54 or 56. The tape will tell. Should be very easy to sell on this 
forum!!

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Lester Lammers]

I'm still dialing in a 55cm Cheviot. This helped be a lot and I am getting 
close. http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/ *I* like the 
Bosco bars on it and have a 120 cm stem. I also have the stoker knobs but 
have not installed them yet. I may have to move the saddle back a bit.

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 4:30:59 PM UTC-5, Dave Small wrote:
>
> I'm happy to see this thread.  I've tried upright bars on a V-O 
> Polyvalent, then a V-O Campeur, and now a Rivendell Cheviot, and haven't 
> fallen in love with the set-up on any of them.  They're okay, but just 
> okay.  I don't find them as comfortable---as natural-feeling---as drops set 
> at saddle height.  The Polyvalent still has porteur bars, which serves it 
> well as an errand bike and grocery-getter, the Campeur I reverted back to 
> drops, and *I'm still evaluating the Cheviot.*  I want to give it a 
> long-enough trial to be fair to the concept, but I'm glad to know I'm not 
> the outlier I thought I was.  
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[Dave Johnston]

It's either a 56cm or 54cm by the looks of the headtube.

Orange is the best color!

-Dave

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 3:53:18 PM UTC-5, Jamie Poolos wrote:
>
> Hi, any idea where on the frame the size might be shown? Specifically, for 
> a Rambouillet about 12 years old.

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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[Belopsky]

Geometry sheet here
http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/rbw/ram_17sm.jpg

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[RBW] Re: Low Trail 61 cm Atlantis frame, fork and CK headset for sale - 700c

[tc]

Hey René,
I'm curious about the low trail fork, what you expected out of it vs. the 
stock fork, and how it ended up affecting handling of this bike.  Thanks.  
It's a beautiful bike.

Happy (almost) new year to you, too!

Tom

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[RBW] Re: FS: S!LVER double crank with guard

[Broccoli Cog]

Darn I wish I had seen this post earlier. I'm working on converting my Sam 
into a Rando-ish bike. Looking for the same cranks. 

On Wednesday, December 20, 2017 at 10:07:44 AM UTC-5, Wally Estrella wrote:
>
> NNS  -New New Stock :)
>
> For Sale: S!LVER double crank set with guard, 173s.  Got'm for a project 
> that stayed as a thought and never become reality.
>
> New, never mounted, never used, still wrapped up.  I can get pics later.
>
> $185/shipped/ContiUS.  PayPal is preferred, fees -ahhh, included in the 
> price.
>
> You won't get'm before Christmas, but can ride into the New Year with them.
>
> CHEERS!
> Wally in Maine
>

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[RBW] Re: where is frame size shown?

[tc]

Very nice - I like that orange!  I hope I'm riding at 87 - sheesh - that's 
awesome.  Very sorry he had to give up riding...

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[RBW] Set-up matters

[Fullylugged]

Some comments on another thread comparing 3 RBW models made me think of a 
recent change I did. At the point where I want a really comfortable bike to 
dink around on, I re-did my venerable old Rambouillet. The noodle handlebar 
came off in favor of reversed mustache bars (which results in a much more 
upright position with urban brake levers. The bar end sifters morphed to the 
excellent Silver brand downtube items and the stock wheel set came off for a 
rebuild and some wider rims with Panaracer 1 1/2" Pasela tires went on. An old 
Brooks B-15 for a saddle. The Sugino XD crannk is replaced by an Octalink 
Ultegra (super smooth spinning) I had laying around. I took the bike on a mid 
week slower club ride last Thursday night and was surprised at how much I 
enjoyed the ride. I also had no trouble keeping up. A headwind might be an 
issue, but I can always slow down.  Crummy picture but you can see it here.   
Took just a couple of hours to do it all and it's like getting a new bike. The 
weight distribution is toally changed and the bike rides just fine in blue 
jeans if not going on a sweat fest. I later added a large Acorn saddle bag, 
some Dinotte lights and a bell.  See ya, I'm going out for a ride.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNZLRQDAlTX9IDm7cQEzubG1QohzLxEEsOA-Ciu

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