subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Getting in over my head"

It was frustration with duplicate gears that drove me to riding fixed
drivetrains.

Seriously, I used to spend a great deal of time calculating gear charts
(good way to while away boring staff meetings). Even with close-ratio
crossover triples there were always annoying (conceptually annoying if not
so horrible in practice) gaps, in the middle or at either end, together
with duplication; you can see why people liked half steps. In fact, half
stepping provided more useful gears out of a 5, 6, even 7 speed cassette
than crossovers did; the downside was the need of a triple/granny for very
low gears. Funny how front derailleurs go from devil to flee to angel to
love between crossovers and half-steps.

I used a hybrid 2X crossover/half stepped 7 sp (half-stepped the middle 5,
13 outer with 48/92" for downhills, 32 inner with 45/35" for climbing) for
a while that worked very well (Kelly Take-Offs were the perfect shifter),
but there was a big jump to the 35" low gear. Riv content: 1995 Riv custom
downgraded to daily commuting duty.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 6:16 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪)  wrote:

> If you go way back to the 5-6 speed freewheel cassette days, the typical
> bike was a 10 speed (really 8 speed since you can't go big/big or
> small/small). It stands to reason once cassettes got to 11s, you didn't
> really need the front derailleur/shifter any more as long as your low
> gears/high gears were of sufficient range. Many people also point out that
> a lot of the gears on the typical 2x drivetrain are duplicates, so you
> don't really have 22 different gears anyway.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Leah Peterson

Lol, Ted, I’m sorry! I’m sure it was the walk of shame for you after that chain dropped. And the paint!!! Those pedals are Spank Oozy pedals, anodized in a teal color. I dearly love them, and they have weathered well.On May 19, 2023, at 4:44 PM, Ted Durant wrote:On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:16:38 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:Fine, I thought, I guess I’ll actually use the granny gear - you know the small cog in the front? I have only ever used that in Vegas on Killer Hill. I’d never dreamed of using it on a club ride for fear that the chain would drop or that it would make me spin like crazy. Well, boy have I been missing out. Using the Granny got me into perfect position to keep a steady pace and not have to be out in front! These things probably do not take most of you a whole year of riding to figure out.  Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)And you can stop calling it a granny gear. Well, I'm a Pops, so I guess you can still call it that, if you want.Oh, and Leah, what are those nice blue pedals on your Platy??Ted DurantMilwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Piaw Na



It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his 
blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.


He's never tried 1x with an 11s friction shifter. :-) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

If you go way back to the 5-6 speed freewheel cassette days, the typical
bike was a 10 speed (really 8 speed since you can't go big/big or
small/small). It stands to reason once cassettes got to 11s, you didn't
really need the front derailleur/shifter any more as long as your low
gears/high gears were of sufficient range. Many people also point out that
a lot of the gears on the typical 2x drivetrain are duplicates, so you
don't really have 22 different gears anyway.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

No, my remarks bear only on the question whether setting up fds to shift
well and actually shifting them is inherently difficult, particularly with
small granny rings. The thrust of the discussion was: "I ditched my fd and
found life much easier." And this with regard to granny rings in
particular. The numbers and sizes of the cogs are secondary issues, and I
only brought up 11+ cog cassettes as a speculative cause why nowadays
people don't like fds, particularly with triple drivetrains. Piaw pointed
out that you just don't use triples with 11+ cogs, so that's probably a red
herring.

Open parenthesis. I do not blame anyone for ditching his or her 2X or 3X
because he or she found shifting the fd troublesome. If I found mine
troublesome I'd do so too. Close parenthesis.

My point was that there seems to be no inherent design flaw or at least
major performance liability with fds as such, and that even shifting triple
chainrings seemed at least at the time as just "life as usual." But some
people like 1Xs because they don't like adjusting and shifting front
derailleurs, and that's perfectly fine. Me, find it less complicated to
shift the subcompact 2X (42/28 or 26) 10 speed on my Matthews than the
44/36/24 7 speed that was on my Fargo, and I suppose some people carry that
one step further and prefer a 1X over a 2X.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:26 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪)  wrote:

>
> 24/38/48 was default gearing for triples back in the 7 and 8 speed days;
>> well, perhaps 24/36/46 was more typical but I used the former with no
>> problem.
>>
>> My question was: Do wide (11-12-13 cog) cassettes with the wider chain
>> angles tend to throw chains off of the grannies in triple ring setups? But
>> how common can those be? No one in his right mind would need 3 rings with
>> 13 cogs -- I think.
>>
>> I have yet to see a triple ring setup with a 11s cassette.  But the
> problem that most people are trying to solve is not enough low gears. Even
> though they've added speeds on the back, the moment you switch from a 1x
> drivetrain the maximum size of the large sprocket drops dramatically (no
> more 51t sprocket). I don't think you can use the 10-52 or 11-51 sprockets
> with 2x drivetrains --- neither Shimano nor SRAM will support it. The
> default drivetrain from Shimano is a 30/46 crank with a 11-36t cassette.
> That's still a higher low gear than a 40t chainring with an 11-51 cassette
> and nothing stops the 1x drivetrain user from switching to a 36t front
> chainring and getting even lower gears.
>
>

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---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

> 24/38/48 was default gearing for triples back in the 7 and 8 speed days;
> well, perhaps 24/36/46 was more typical but I used the former with no
> problem.
>
> My question was: Do wide (11-12-13 cog) cassettes with the wider chain
> angles tend to throw chains off of the grannies in triple ring setups? But
> how common can those be? No one in his right mind would need 3 rings with
> 13 cogs -- I think.
>
> I have yet to see a triple ring setup with a 11s cassette.  But the
problem that most people are trying to solve is not enough low gears. Even
though they've added speeds on the back, the moment you switch from a 1x
drivetrain the maximum size of the large sprocket drops dramatically (no
more 51t sprocket). I don't think you can use the 10-52 or 11-51 sprockets
with 2x drivetrains --- neither Shimano nor SRAM will support it. The
default drivetrain from Shimano is a 30/46 crank with a 11-36t cassette.
That's still a higher low gear than a 40t chainring with an 11-51 cassette
and nothing stops the 1x drivetrain user from switching to a 36t front
chainring and getting even lower gears.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

24/38/48 was default gearing for triples back in the 7 and 8 speed days;
well, perhaps 24/36/46 was more typical but I used the former with no
problem.

My question was: Do wide (11-12-13 cog) cassettes with the wider chain
angles tend to throw chains off of the grannies in triple ring setups? But
how common can those be? No one in his right mind would need 3 rings with
13 cogs -- I think.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:15 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪)  wrote:

>
>> Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?
>>
>> The transition to 1x includes a narrow wide chainring and a rear
> derailleur clutch so chains don't come off chainring. It works. And yes, 2X
> are much more reliable than 1x. But the default Shimano/SRAM gearing
> doesn't include a small enough chainring on 2x either!
>
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> .
>


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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Johnny Alien

I am not a hardcore 1x advocate but both of my bikes are setup that way and 
for me personally it just works well. I get the gearing that works for me 
in a super simple package. 

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 6:16:00 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>> Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?
>>
>> The transition to 1x includes a narrow wide chainring and a rear 
> derailleur clutch so chains don't come off chainring. It works. And yes, 2X 
> are much more reliable than 1x. But the default Shimano/SRAM gearing 
> doesn't include a small enough chainring on 2x either!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Oops. I meant to write that 2x is much more reliable than 3x. My 2x
drivetrain almost never gets into trouble.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪)  wrote:

>
>> Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?
>>
>> The transition to 1x includes a narrow wide chainring and a rear
> derailleur clutch so chains don't come off chainring. It works. And yes, 2X
> are much more reliable than 1x. But the default Shimano/SRAM gearing
> doesn't include a small enough chainring on 2x either!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

>
>
> Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?
>
> The transition to 1x includes a narrow wide chainring and a rear
derailleur clutch so chains don't come off chainring. It works. And yes, 2X
are much more reliable than 1x. But the default Shimano/SRAM gearing
doesn't include a small enough chainring on 2x either!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Maybe I simply don't shift aggressively, but like Laing I never had
problems with wide-range 2X compact front setups and even triples back in
the 7-speed days seemed to shift fine in and out of the granny with a
little care; at any rate, that's what you did if you wanted to get up a
steep hill, and dropped chains were not a frequent problem.

Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?

Now trying a "granny-granny" Mt. Tamer Quad in a 4-ring setup: that didn't
work smoothly, but apparently they worked for some people because they
stayed on the market for decades.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:01 PM lconley  wrote:

> Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5
> drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it
> always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo
> Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in
> there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?)
> was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i
> think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank /
> chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as
> well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800
> (2003) on my Custom.
>
> Laing
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5
> drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it
> always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo
> Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in
> there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?)
> was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i
> think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank /
> chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as
> well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800
> (2003) on my Custom.


They're not hard if you stick to the default gearing that
Shimano/SRAM/Campy in their infinite wisdom chose for us. Unfortunately
that gearing is suitable only for people who live in flatland or are 25
year old strong cyclists.  A 30t small chainwheel is worthless to me. Those
of us looking for a low gear of around 19" or less ended up picking much
smaller chainrings and discovering that the FD becomes unreliable as a
result. I remember it took my bike shop a long time to find a front
deraileur that would shift a 24/38/48 combination. And even then I tore
that derailleur off by shifting while riding over railroad tracks. One time
I shift my tandem (24/39/52) at the wrong time on a climb, and not only
tore off the derailleur and broke the chain, but also tore off teeth on the
chainrings and sheared off one chainring bolt. The bike shop had to drill
out that chainring bolt to put in new chainrings. Yes, two people pedaling
hard on a climb can do that to a crank!

It's possible to do bad things to 1x drivetrains too, but fortunately, many
ebikes come with one and Shimano/SRAM have had to adjust to the increased
torque that ebikes can produce and so those drivetrains are actually hardy
when someone like me abuses them.

Piaw

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Doug Hansford

They probably aren’t that hard to adjust. I just couldn’t get the hang of it. I actually like 2x9 gearing and may try it again at some point.DougSent from my iPhoneOn May 19, 2023, at 6:01 PM, lconley wrote:Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5 drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?) was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank / chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800 (2003) on my Custom.LaingOn Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:38:19 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:I just changed my Clem to 1x and it’s been great. I could never adjust the FD and finally had enough. DougSent from my iPhoneOn May 19, 2023, at 5:31 PM, Leah Peterson wrote:I’ve got 1x on my other Platypus! It’s really nice to have both types of gearing. I don’t know that I really drop my red bike’s chain but I have done it many times on my Clem. I wish that thing was 1x…It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.On May 19, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Piaw Na wrote:Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years, frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain changes you don't need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the bigger jumps don't bother me at all.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread lconley

Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5 
drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it 
always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo 
Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in 
there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?) 
was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i 
think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank / 
chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as 
well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800 
(2003) on my Custom.

Laing

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:38:19 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:

> I just changed my Clem to 1x and it’s been great. I could never adjust the 
> FD and finally had enough.  
> Doug
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 19, 2023, at 5:31 PM, Leah Peterson  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I’ve got 1x on my other Platypus! It’s really nice to have both types of 
> gearing. I don’t know that I really drop my red bike’s chain but I have 
> done it many times on my Clem. I wish that thing was 1x…
>
> It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his 
> blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.
>
>
> On May 19, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Piaw Na  wrote:
>
> 
>
>>
>> Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my 
>> bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and 
>> professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just 
>> just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. 
>> Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for 
>> that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had 
>> thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. 
>> You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're 
>> not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to 
>> happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those 
>> wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner 
>> chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)
>>
>
> I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years, 
> frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle 
> ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last 
> year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I 
> didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain 
> changes you don't  need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the 
> bigger jumps don't bother me at all.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Doug Hansford

I just changed my Clem to 1x and it’s been great. I could never adjust the FD and finally had enough. DougSent from my iPhoneOn May 19, 2023, at 5:31 PM, Leah Peterson wrote:I’ve got 1x on my other Platypus! It’s really nice to have both types of gearing. I don’t know that I really drop my red bike’s chain but I have done it many times on my Clem. I wish that thing was 1x…It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.On May 19, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Piaw Na wrote:Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years, frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain changes you don't need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the bigger jumps don't bother me at all.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Leah Peterson

I’ve got 1x on my other Platypus! It’s really nice to have both types of gearing. I don’t know that I really drop my red bike’s chain but I have done it many times on my Clem. I wish that thing was 1x…It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.On May 19, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Piaw Na wrote:Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years, frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain changes you don't need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the bigger jumps don't bother me at all.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

>
>
> Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my
> bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and
> professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just
> just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill.
> Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for
> that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had
> thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them.
> You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're
> not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to
> happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those
> wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner
> chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)
>

I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years,
frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle
ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last
year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I
didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain
changes you don't  need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the
bigger jumps don't bother me at all.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-19 Thread Ted Durant

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:16:38 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Fine, I thought, I guess I’ll actually use the granny gear - you know the
small cog in the front? I have only ever used that in Vegas on Killer Hill.
I’d never dreamed of using it on a club ride for fear that the chain would
drop or that it would make me spin like crazy. Well, boy have I been
missing out. Using the Granny got me into perfect position to keep a steady
pace and not have to be out in front! These things probably do not take
most of you a whole year of riding to figure out. 

Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my
bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and
professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just
just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill.
Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for
that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had
thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them.
You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're
not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to
happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those
wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner
chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)

And you can stop calling it a granny gear. Well, I'm a Pops, so I guess you
can still call it that, if you want.

Oh, and Leah, what are those nice blue pedals on your Platy??

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-18 Thread 藍俊彪

On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 6:57 AM Johnny Alien 
wrote:

> It's interesting that you see them having numbness problems. I have all
> upright bars now because they work for me but I have found that none of
> them really give the number of hand positions that a really nice drop bar
> (or albastache) has. I know that the concept of hand positions are there
> but with the long stems needed for many of them and just general design I
> find most of the alternate hand positions are not really useful for
> anything but brief stints of time.
>
> Lots of people who are used to flat bars  don't have the habit of changing
hand positions and so develop numbness. After all, if you're used to a MTB
straight bar there are no positions to change to! It also takes effort and
time to adjust drop bar positions properly so you can spend lots of time in
the drops --- though once you've overcome that learning curve the increase
in speed (1-2 mph) is significant --- once I got my brother adjusted to a
drop bar he was surprised by how much faster the bike was --- at no
increase in discomfort!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-18 Thread Johnny Alien

It's interesting that you see them having numbness problems. I have all 
upright bars now because they work for me but I have found that none of 
them really give the number of hand positions that a really nice drop bar 
(or albastache) has. I know that the concept of hand positions are there 
but with the long stems needed for many of them and just general design I 
find most of the alternate hand positions are not really useful for 
anything but brief stints of time.

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:38:34 AM UTC-4 Garth wrote:

> I remember when I was pickup w/a shell camping traveling out West from 
> Ohio and spent a few days to rest and ride in Utah with my sister and her 
> husband I'll call JE who own/runs a local bike shop and a quite strong 
> rider, or so I read and heard. It's not like I had ever ridden with him 
> before, let alone spent any time with him. So the first day I arrive I go 
> out riding with his teenage son I'll call AN and I'm not feeling so great 
> and have a hard time keeping up the 20 some miles we ride. So it goes ... 
> The next day JE plans a ride of unknown duration with a buddy of his I'll 
> call CA, AN and yours truly. The city rests in a valley which is surrounded 
> on three sides by mountains. We head to one of more "gentle" uphill roads 
> out of town up a pass, a state highway and it's relatively even grade. The 
> first 10 miles are in the valley and to the top of the pass is another 6 
> miles. Everything is peachy until we hit the pass. I'm used to steep hills 
> in Ohio, but not mile are after mile of steady mountain grades, so I feel 
> like a boat anchor to the other three and lag behind, and they wait for at 
> the top of the pass. At the top I learn they're just getting started and 
> plan on riding another 45 miles or something. That's not anything I was 
> used to, and I'm not feeling great at the time so I decided it to return to 
> the valley and ride some extra miles on my own.  Dirty Harry would agree 
> that was the right move for the moment.
>
> A few days later JE plans another that includes a less steep 16 mile 
> valley canyon for about 47 miles total. He figures that'll be "easier" on 
> me he tells me later. So we hum along and get to the valley entrance 
> where a lone rider is spotted ahead. JE knows him and tells me he doesn't 
> want him riding with us and rather than tell him to get lost, it turns 
> into a surreal game of "let's drop him". So JE and CA begin to hammer. Oh 
> . now I see how JE really is a "pretty strong rider" and we're flying 
> along in big rings and after the initial "what have I gotten myself into, 
> again ?" I mean, we're flat out racing . I don't know what the thing 
> was between JE and tag-along guy, but whatever it was enough of an excuse 
> for JE to engage in the game, and it's either play along or be the one 
> dropped... heeheehee !  Well not today, not here, not now. Dirty Harry 
> agrees. Tag-a-long guy isn't dropped either. The turnaround is a little 
> awkward, to say the lest no fun being involved in dramas you have no 
> part in. The ride back down wasn't as hard for the obvious reason, it being 
> downhill and tag-a-long guy wasn't going to go away until we returned to 
> the Valley where he turned off. 
>
> I was used to racing and group rides and all but I didn't expect one to 
> break out there !  In all my group rides that I did no one ever crashed or 
> really had anything go awry. In racing I crashed "over my head" for real 
> once when some riders crashed right in front of me in a criterium and I had 
> nowhere to else to go but in/over them. That was surreal, to say the least. 
> There's many times in racing where I was wondering I belonged, getting 
> dropped up steep hills and catching up on the down. Racing/group riding is 
> wild though in that I found myself riding harder than I ever did on my own. 
> Mostly though I prefer to ride on my own as I have nothing to prove or 
> attain. I just love to ride my bike, that's it, period. Now I love riding 
> fast when I feel like it, and I've returned to riding like I used to in the 
> 80's, nice and stretched out with a long reach, and  a relatively flat 
> back. While this certainly does make riding into the wind easier, that's 
> not why I do it. I do it because it feels most natural of all, even uphill. 
> I tried the more upright thing for years and it always felt like a 
> struggle, like I'm trying to ride in a position that doesn't suit me at 
> all. I still have the Albatross bars on my two bikes, but they're near 
> level with my saddle and very stretched out. They also have bar end brake 
> levers and they're taped with padded tape over the curve. Here I'm able to 
> use the full extension of the bar. I could do without the rear 3 inches, 
> but I'm not chopping them as it's not in the way, my reach is quite long. I 
> have some Albastache and drop bars to try out, but it's not about the bar 
> shape necessarily,

Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-18 Thread Garth

I remember when I was pickup w/a shell camping traveling out West from Ohio 
and spent a few days to rest and ride in Utah with my sister and her 
husband I'll call JE who own/runs a local bike shop and a quite strong 
rider, or so I read and heard. It's not like I had ever ridden with him 
before, let alone spent any time with him. So the first day I arrive I go 
out riding with his teenage son I'll call AN and I'm not feeling so great 
and have a hard time keeping up the 20 some miles we ride. So it goes ... 
The next day JE plans a ride of unknown duration with a buddy of his I'll 
call CA, AN and yours truly. The city rests in a valley which is surrounded 
on three sides by mountains. We head to one of more "gentle" uphill roads 
out of town up a pass, a state highway and it's relatively even grade. The 
first 10 miles are in the valley and to the top of the pass is another 6 
miles. Everything is peachy until we hit the pass. I'm used to steep hills 
in Ohio, but not mile are after mile of steady mountain grades, so I feel 
like a boat anchor to the other three and lag behind, and they wait for at 
the top of the pass. At the top I learn they're just getting started and 
plan on riding another 45 miles or something. That's not anything I was 
used to, and I'm not feeling great at the time so I decided it to return to 
the valley and ride some extra miles on my own.  Dirty Harry would agree 
that was the right move for the moment.

A few days later JE plans another that includes a less steep 16 mile valley 
canyon for about 47 miles total. He figures that'll be "easier" on me 
he tells me later. So we hum along and get to the valley entrance where a 
lone rider is spotted ahead. JE knows him and tells me he doesn't want him 
riding with us and rather than tell him to get lost, it turns into a 
surreal game of "let's drop him". So JE and CA begin to hammer. Oh . 
now I see how JE really is a "pretty strong rider" and we're flying along 
in big rings and after the initial "what have I gotten myself into, again 
?" I mean, we're flat out racing . I don't know what the thing was 
between JE and tag-along guy, but whatever it was enough of an excuse for 
JE to engage in the game, and it's either play along or be the one 
dropped... heeheehee !  Well not today, not here, not now. Dirty Harry 
agrees. Tag-a-long guy isn't dropped either. The turnaround is a little 
awkward, to say the lest no fun being involved in dramas you have no 
part in. The ride back down wasn't as hard for the obvious reason, it being 
downhill and tag-a-long guy wasn't going to go away until we returned to 
the Valley where he turned off. 

I was used to racing and group rides and all but I didn't expect one to 
break out there !  In all my group rides that I did no one ever crashed or 
really had anything go awry. In racing I crashed "over my head" for real 
once when some riders crashed right in front of me in a criterium and I had 
nowhere to else to go but in/over them. That was surreal, to say the least. 
There's many times in racing where I was wondering I belonged, getting 
dropped up steep hills and catching up on the down. Racing/group riding is 
wild though in that I found myself riding harder than I ever did on my own. 
Mostly though I prefer to ride on my own as I have nothing to prove or 
attain. I just love to ride my bike, that's it, period. Now I love riding 
fast when I feel like it, and I've returned to riding like I used to in the 
80's, nice and stretched out with a long reach, and  a relatively flat 
back. While this certainly does make riding into the wind easier, that's 
not why I do it. I do it because it feels most natural of all, even uphill. 
I tried the more upright thing for years and it always felt like a 
struggle, like I'm trying to ride in a position that doesn't suit me at 
all. I still have the Albatross bars on my two bikes, but they're near 
level with my saddle and very stretched out. They also have bar end brake 
levers and they're taped with padded tape over the curve. Here I'm able to 
use the full extension of the bar. I could do without the rear 3 inches, 
but I'm not chopping them as it's not in the way, my reach is quite long. I 
have some Albastache and drop bars to try out, but it's not about the bar 
shape necessarily, it's about the proper reach and position of my hands and 
arms and my posture, for which the bars serve as the means by which my 
hands lightly rest and use to steer. With the other bars my hands would be 
in about the same place anyways. When I'm in the mood I'll do it. Once you 
have all that, and the core strength to ride low and stretched out with 
ease, you can use a bunch of various bars as you're not using the bars 
alone to support yourself. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Pam Bikes

Do your ride -  your own way -  on your bike.  You know I only ride my 
Betty.  I ride w/plenty of carbon fiber, Ti bikes.  I don't like to go that 
fast so I usually don't do group road rides.  I don't want to be going fast 
w/people who I'm not familiar with or a route I'm not familiar with.  I've 
led lots of rides and I'm used to posting the route in advance, signaling 
turns in advance, etc.  But I plan the route to be socialable which means 
flatish and hills at the beginning instead of the end of the ride.  But I 
do all social rides.  The road bikes may go faster but I can go farther 
since the Riv is so comfortable.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:31:39 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> Aw, thanks, Jason! 
>
> Everything you say is true about the challenges of riding an upright bike. 
> I have thought about drop bars but I’ve never used them and I don’t think I 
> want to, even if they help. I see the other riders shaking the numbness out 
> of their hands and I just don’t think I could get used to it. 
>
> In sum, to address what many people said earlier in the thread:
>
>  I know that the Platypus isn’t the ideal club ride bike; Grant himself 
> has told me this. But I just *like* my Platypus. It’s pretty and 
> comfortable and special and I’m attached. There will come a time when its 
> limits will either make me decide I don’t want to expend the effort OR I 
> just flat won’t be able to keep up. But until then, I am not planning on a 
> “real” road bike. 
>
> Just a Racing Platypus.
> Leah
>
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 1:39:38 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Late to the conversation - great story-telling as always, and highly 
>> relatable Leah!  I have certainly been there, although maybe not entirely 
>> by surprise in my case. I ride with friends who have very fast, lightweight 
>> bikes and I'm never totally sure how much to blame my bike vs. my legs, but 
>> for sure they both play a role.  
>>
>> I've been consistently amazed by how effortlessly you've been able to 
>> hang onto group rides with folks on more typical road bikes, because as 
>> much as I love an upright Riv, it definitely takes more effort to go the 
>> same speed.  On flat ground, you lose a bit due to aerodynamics but as you 
>> say, it's the hills where the difference really becomes significant and I 
>> think it's largely to do with body position - on our slack seat tube, 
>> upright bar bikes we're rotated too far back once the road points upwards!  
>> Getting forward on the bars helps.  A lot of it is the angle between your 
>> legs and torso, and also having your torso rotated forward enough to 
>> effectively counter-balance the forces from your pedal strokes. 
>>
>> I have enjoyed just gearing down and enjoying the scenery but this breaks 
>> down if you need to keep up with a fast group 
>>
>> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 09:23:04 UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> That's a funny story. Long ago my then-wife/now ex-wife decided to try 
>>> out the Spinning (tm) class at the nearby gym. Her only cycling experience 
>>> was about 25 miles total on our 2 tandems (on the first of which -- wholly 
>>> inappropriate lightweight 531C Orbit racing tandem that wagged like a dog 
>>> under 2 neophytes -- our inaugural and sole ride ended up with the steerer 
>>> breaking and sending both of us over the bar).
>>>
>>> Anyway, she went to the gym and found it full of die-hard Spinning 
>>> aficionados with an aggressive coach. The first kefuffle was that she wore 
>>> regular athletic shoes, but they got her more or less sorted, and she 
>>> embarked on such a purgatorial ride that about 1/2 way through she came 
>>> close to fainting and falling off the machine, stopping the class so others 
>>> could resuscitate her and ask her if she needed a doctor (she is a doctor). 
>>> That was her last Spinning class. She took up guns and whisky and cigars -- 
>>> tough little 5'2" 2nd-gen Taiwan Chinese.
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:01 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>>
 My comical "getting in over my head" story is not a cycling story, but 
 I think it still has familiar emotions

 My wife is an avid flamenco afficionado.  She takes classes multiple 
 times per week, attends shows almost every weekend, and savors the 
 Spanish, 
 Gypsy and North African cultural streams that all mix together.  The SF 
 Bay 
 Area has a small but vibrant flamenco community, so usually if you go to a 
 medium sized show with 100 people in the audience, you're going to see 
 familiar faces.  At small shows, you might know everybody.  Performers 
 from 
 the last show will be in the audience of this show, etc.  One of the 
 traditional parts of flamenco is a percussion element.  It's a wooden 
 snare 
 drum in the shape of a box.  The Cajon.  The drummer sits on the Cajon and 
 plays on the front face of the instrument, making a surprising array of 
 sounds.

Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Aw, thanks, Jason! 

Everything you say is true about the challenges of riding an upright bike. 
I have thought about drop bars but I’ve never used them and I don’t think I 
want to, even if they help. I see the other riders shaking the numbness out 
of their hands and I just don’t think I could get used to it. 

In sum, to address what many people said earlier in the thread:

 I know that the Platypus isn’t the ideal club ride bike; Grant himself has 
told me this. But I just *like* my Platypus. It’s pretty and comfortable 
and special and I’m attached. There will come a time when its limits will 
either make me decide I don’t want to expend the effort OR I just flat 
won’t be able to keep up. But until then, I am not planning on a “real” 
road bike. 

Just a Racing Platypus.
Leah

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 1:39:38 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Late to the conversation - great story-telling as always, and highly 
> relatable Leah!  I have certainly been there, although maybe not entirely 
> by surprise in my case. I ride with friends who have very fast, lightweight 
> bikes and I'm never totally sure how much to blame my bike vs. my legs, but 
> for sure they both play a role.  
>
> I've been consistently amazed by how effortlessly you've been able to hang 
> onto group rides with folks on more typical road bikes, because as much as 
> I love an upright Riv, it definitely takes more effort to go the same 
> speed.  On flat ground, you lose a bit due to aerodynamics but as you say, 
> it's the hills where the difference really becomes significant and I think 
> it's largely to do with body position - on our slack seat tube, upright bar 
> bikes we're rotated too far back once the road points upwards!  Getting 
> forward on the bars helps.  A lot of it is the angle between your legs and 
> torso, and also having your torso rotated forward enough to effectively 
> counter-balance the forces from your pedal strokes. 
>
> I have enjoyed just gearing down and enjoying the scenery but this breaks 
> down if you need to keep up with a fast group 
>
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 09:23:04 UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> That's a funny story. Long ago my then-wife/now ex-wife decided to try 
>> out the Spinning (tm) class at the nearby gym. Her only cycling experience 
>> was about 25 miles total on our 2 tandems (on the first of which -- wholly 
>> inappropriate lightweight 531C Orbit racing tandem that wagged like a dog 
>> under 2 neophytes -- our inaugural and sole ride ended up with the steerer 
>> breaking and sending both of us over the bar).
>>
>> Anyway, she went to the gym and found it full of die-hard Spinning 
>> aficionados with an aggressive coach. The first kefuffle was that she wore 
>> regular athletic shoes, but they got her more or less sorted, and she 
>> embarked on such a purgatorial ride that about 1/2 way through she came 
>> close to fainting and falling off the machine, stopping the class so others 
>> could resuscitate her and ask her if she needed a doctor (she is a doctor). 
>> That was her last Spinning class. She took up guns and whisky and cigars -- 
>> tough little 5'2" 2nd-gen Taiwan Chinese.
>>
>> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:01 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> My comical "getting in over my head" story is not a cycling story, but I 
>>> think it still has familiar emotions
>>>
>>> My wife is an avid flamenco afficionado.  She takes classes multiple 
>>> times per week, attends shows almost every weekend, and savors the Spanish, 
>>> Gypsy and North African cultural streams that all mix together.  The SF Bay 
>>> Area has a small but vibrant flamenco community, so usually if you go to a 
>>> medium sized show with 100 people in the audience, you're going to see 
>>> familiar faces.  At small shows, you might know everybody.  Performers from 
>>> the last show will be in the audience of this show, etc.  One of the 
>>> traditional parts of flamenco is a percussion element.  It's a wooden snare 
>>> drum in the shape of a box.  The Cajon.  The drummer sits on the Cajon and 
>>> plays on the front face of the instrument, making a surprising array of 
>>> sounds.  
>>>
>>> I'm recognized in this small community because I go to a lot of shows, 
>>> but I don't dance, sing, or play an instrument.  My wife had the idea that 
>>> we could learn cajon together.  Several years back, a visitor from Spain 
>>> was holding a workshop in San Francisco, and she signed us up.  The 
>>> description said "all levels welcome".  I asked "will they have a cajon for 
>>> each of us to borrow?"  She said "they must!  All levels!"  
>>>
>>> We got there and every student was a professional percussionist.  There 
>>> were 8 students in total.  Every student had their own cajon, and the class 
>>> was entirely in Spanish.  There were no familiar faces.  My wife and I had 
>>> to play on the tops of our thighs.  My wife was familiar with all the 
>>> rhythms, since she had many years of dancing

Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

You look fantastic, Jock. Just plain *fit. * Kudos and bravo and all that 
stuff. I love your description of happy country rides, lost in your 
thoughts. I am going to try to squeeze one of those in tomorrow. But guess 
what I’m doing after that? I got talked into brining my Platypus to an 
intro to gravel biking ride. Ha!

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 1:32:19 PM UTC-4 John Dewey wrote:

> I've been engaged with the pros / cons of group rides for many years. And, 
> despite my best efforts to see it clearly, I still waffle to and fro.
>
> These days, I'm always the only guy riding fly-by-wire steel and have 
> little in common with the folks on plastic bikes. There is no idle talk 
> about equipment (most drop their bikes off to have tires mounted). But I 
> like a well-organized paceline because it makes me stronger and builds 
> fitness. I have no lofty goals other than being able to ride 50 miles with 
> ease. In this regard, riding with a strong group is a means to an end. I 
> also feed on the euphoria of living the moment. It's exhilarating—the 
> speed, the awareness, the 'aliveness'...maybe even* the danger*. 
>
> There is no past, no future, only *now*.
>
> But I enjoy—equally—long rides out into the countryside all by myself. I 
> never *feel* alone; I'm not concerned for my safety. I love the silence 
> and amuse myself as I get lost in my head. Though we are lured by the 
> comfort as miles pass by, we must always be sharp, vigilant, and prepared, 
> because each turn leads to the unknown regardless of how many times we've 
> pedaled down the road.
>
> I am quite a bit older than all my riding mates...that reality is hard to 
> ignore. I don't think about it much—as I *feel *youthful and prepared for 
> adventure. But some numbers cannot be ignored. The paceline distorts this 
> reality...and brushes it aside if only temporarily. 
>
> At this point in my life, that's reward enough.
>
> Jock Dewey 
>
> [image: Screenshot 2023-05-17 at 9.41.22 AM.png]
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:58 AM Ted Durant  wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote:
>>
>>  I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have 
>> increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely 
>> in a group ride.  
>>
>>
>> That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are 
>> being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even 
>> before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding 
>> skills create chaos in the pack. 
>>
>> What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an 
>> old fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a 
>> fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel 
>> says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." 
>>
>> The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless 
>> of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same 
>> rhythm 99.9% of the time. 
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee, WI USA
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c576434d-4678-41d1-b072-c620f18964fbn%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Rich, ha! This pretty much sums it up, doesn’t it?! Thanks for finding this.
L

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:11:37 PM UTC-4 RichS wrote:

> Dear Leah, 
>
> Kudos to you for participating and then hanging with a group of gofasters; 
> something I don't have a desire to do. I have begun taking  part in no drop 
> 20-30 mile group rides averaging 10-12 mph with a social gathering at the 
> end. The riders respect and watch out for one another. All in all very 
> enjoyable. This from one who has forever done solo rides or occasionally 
> with a partner. 
>
> Your post made me think of this image from the Cheviot brochure when it 
> was introduced. Having your cake and eating it too perhaps?
>
> Best,
> Rich in ATL
>
>
> [image: Screenshot 2023-05-17 at 11.40.47 AM.png]
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:58:20 AM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote:
>>
>>  I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have 
>> increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely 
>> in a group ride.  
>>
>>
>> That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are 
>> being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even 
>> before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding 
>> skills create chaos in the pack. 
>>
>> What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an 
>> old fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a 
>> fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel 
>> says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." 
>>
>> The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless 
>> of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same 
>> rhythm 99.9% of the time. 
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee, WI USA
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Ted, You’re lucky to have found a riding partner that matches your rhythm. 
Hang on to that friendship!

Our club is pretty strict about obeying traffic rules and being polite. We 
had one guy complain about a group of us on a ride saying that the group 
was 3 wide. It went right to the club president - it’s a small enough city 
that citizens know who to call - who told every ride leader to address the 
problem, which they did. I’d never ride with a contentious group. Too many 
angry people with hair-trigger tempers driving cars these days. I want to 
get home alive and in working order.
L
On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:58:20 AM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote:
>
>  I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have 
> increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely 
> in a group ride.  
>
>
> That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are 
> being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even 
> before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding 
> skills create chaos in the pack. 
>
> What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an old 
> fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a 
> fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel 
> says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." 
>
> The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless 
> of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same 
> rhythm 99.9% of the time. 
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread George Schick

Worthy question, but it all depends upon what one means by "getting in over 
your head."  My honest answer to that would be "yes" during the mid-70's 
when I attempted to compete in what was then known back then as "Cat. 4" 
amateur racing.  This was when I was in my mid-20's and I attempted to 
compete in a criterium and in a time trial.  I fell way, way behind in both 
events and gave up on amateur racing since I discovered that I possessed 
neither the right "build" nor the proper stamina to compete in events like 
that.

I did, though, participate in semi-weekly "training" rides where most of us 
would continually get dropped by the club captain and Cat. 3 racer (they 
only had 4 categories back then before pro).  I eventually fell away from 
any participation in any of these goings-on due to family circumstances and 
requirements (new born child, etc.) and saw no interest in picking them up 
again after that, though I continued to ride several times a week with a 
co-worker over a 25 mile course and was content with that.

So, yes, over my head, but I retreated to what I found to be my "comfort 
zone" instead of trying to continually push the envelope, as it were.  And 
I've enjoyed cycling ever since, though not in group rides after the early 
80's, but on my own or, as you put it, as a "lone wolf" with an occasional 
tag-along, as the situation presented itself.

As captain Briggs used to always say in Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" 
sequel, "Magnum Force," "...good man always knows his limitations..."
 
On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:02:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> Ok, George, very good, but the question remains: Have you ever gotten in 
> over your head? 
>
> Or did you read all the books…
> Leah
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 17, 2023, at 3:25 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book 
> of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In 
> his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five 
> or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road 
> bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him 
> riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be 
> positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index 
> finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the 
> downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the 
> bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these 
> positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary 
> through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the 
> hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching 
> a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the 
> brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated 
> and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way 
> up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she 
> has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down 
> or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best 
> advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using 
> a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the 
> best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for 
> casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).
>
>
> Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes 
> with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.  
> Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on 
> bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary 
> exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and 
> strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's 
> body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are 
> practical alternatives.
>
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:32:19 PM UTC-5 John Dewey wrote:
>
>> I've been engaged with the pros / cons of group rides for many years. 
>> And, despite my best efforts to see it clearly, I still waffle to and fro.
>>
>> These days, I'm always the only guy riding fly-by-wire steel and have 
>> little in common with the folks on plastic bikes. There is no idle talk 
>> about equipment (most drop their bikes off to have tires mounted). But I 
>> like a well-organized paceline because it makes me stronger and builds 
>> fitness. I have no lofty goals other than being able to ride 50 miles with 
>> ease. In this regard, riding with a strong group is a means to an end. I 
>> also feed on the euphoria of living the moment. It's exhilarating—the 
>> speed, the awareness, the 'aliveness'...maybe even* the danger*. 
>>
>> There is no past, no future,

Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Leah Peterson

Ok, George, very good, but the question remains: Have you ever gotten in over your head? Or did you read all the books…LeahSent from my iPhoneOn May 17, 2023, at 3:25 PM, George Schick  wrote:I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.  Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are practical alternatives.On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:32:19 PM UTC-5 John Dewey wrote:I've been engaged with the pros / cons of group rides for many years. And, despite my best efforts to see it clearly, I still waffle to and fro.These days, I'm always the only guy riding fly-by-wire steel and have little in common with the folks on plastic bikes. There is no idle talk about equipment (most drop their bikes off to have tires mounted). But I like a well-organized paceline because it makes me stronger and builds fitness. I have no lofty goals other than being able to ride 50 miles with ease. In this regard, riding with a strong group is a means to an end. I also feed on the euphoria of living the moment. It's exhilarating—the speed, the awareness, the 'aliveness'...maybe even the danger. There is no past, no future, only now.But I enjoy—equally—long rides out into the countryside all by myself. I never feel alone; I'm not concerned for my safety. I love the silence and amuse myself as I get lost in my head. Though we are lured by the comfort as miles pass by, we must always be sharp, vigilant, and prepared, because each turn leads to the unknown regardless of how many times we've pedaled down the road.I am quite a bit older than all my riding mates...that reality is hard to ignore. I don't think about it much—as I feel youthful and prepared for adventure. But some numbers cannot be ignored. The paceline distorts this reality...and brushes it aside if only temporarily. At this point in my life, that's reward enough.Jock Dewey On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:58 AM Ted Durant  wrote:On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote: I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely in a group ride.  That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding skills create chaos in the pack. What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an old fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same rhythm 99.9% of the time. Ted DurantMilwaukee, WI USA



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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Patrick Moore

Perhaps American usage is different. In any event, it's of little
importance since the important thing is the way of pedaling. And you may be
right about riding the hooks in pacelines.

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/honking/Honking.htm

https://www.sportsdefinitions.com/cycling/honk/

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 1:49 PM George Schick  wrote:

> Patrick - as far as I know, "honking" may have been used for either seated
> or standing positions, but the way I recall Sloane describing it, it
> consisted of placing one's hands on the flat bar tops.  It's difficult to
> imagine hands in that position when standing on the pedals.
>
> Also, in pacelines that I have ridden in the distant past, I have found
> that the hands down on the hooks with the fingers "just reachable" to the
> brake levers is the optimal position.  That way you can gain maximum
> aerodynamic advantage while "feathering" the brakes as necessary to keep
> and appropriate distance from the rider ahead of you.  In fact, when
> Campagnolo was occasionally criticized by some during the 70's that their
> Record series brakes lacked adequate stopping power, they responded by
> saying that their brakes were designed to "modulate speed," not just to
> stop the bike.
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 2:38:28 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I generally agree with George's information, only "honking" means
>> standing and pushing hard on the pedals, usually uphill. I think it's an
>> old British term. Also, I don't think that you use the hooks for drafting,
>> tho' I confess that my knowledge here is gained from reading, since I have
>> never ridden except in the most temporary and casual of pace lines.
>>
>> But I do agree (same caveat) that Platypuses and such are *not* optimized
>> for fast paceline riding, while the fast boys' CF racing bikes are..
>>
>> Back to regular programming.
>>
>> Patrick Moore, who "got into" cycling at age 14, the year before the book
>> came out.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 1:25 PM George Schick  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book
>>> of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In
>>> his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five
>>> or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road
>>> bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him
>>> riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be
>>> positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index
>>> finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the
>>> downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the
>>> bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these
>>> positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary
>>> through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the
>>> hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching
>>> a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the
>>> brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated
>>> and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way
>>> up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she
>>> has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down
>>> or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best
>>> advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using
>>> a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the
>>> best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for
>>> casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).
>>>
>>> Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes
>>> with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.
>>> Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on
>>> bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary
>>> exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and
>>> strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's
>>> body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are
>>> practical alternatives.
>>>
>> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> 
> .
>


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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread George Schick

Patrick - as far as I know, "honking" may have been used for either seated 
or standing positions, but the way I recall Sloane describing it, it 
consisted of placing one's hands on the flat bar tops.  It's difficult to 
imagine hands in that position when standing on the pedals.

Also, in pacelines that I have ridden in the distant past, I have found 
that the hands down on the hooks with the fingers "just reachable" to the 
brake levers is the optimal position.  That way you can gain maximum 
aerodynamic advantage while "feathering" the brakes as necessary to keep 
and appropriate distance from the rider ahead of you.  In fact, when 
Campagnolo was occasionally criticized by some during the 70's that their 
Record series brakes lacked adequate stopping power, they responded by 
saying that their brakes were designed to "modulate speed," not just to 
stop the bike.
 

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 2:38:28 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I generally agree with George's information, only "honking" means standing 
> and pushing hard on the pedals, usually uphill. I think it's an old British 
> term. Also, I don't think that you use the hooks for drafting, tho' I 
> confess that my knowledge here is gained from reading, since I have never 
> ridden except in the most temporary and casual of pace lines.
>
> But I do agree (same caveat) that Platypuses and such are *not* optimized 
> for fast paceline riding, while the fast boys' CF racing bikes are..
>
> Back to regular programming.
>
> Patrick Moore, who "got into" cycling at age 14, the year before the book 
> came out.
>
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 1:25 PM George Schick  wrote:
>
>> I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book 
>> of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In 
>> his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five 
>> or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road 
>> bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him 
>> riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be 
>> positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index 
>> finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the 
>> downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the 
>> bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these 
>> positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary 
>> through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the 
>> hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching 
>> a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the 
>> brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated 
>> and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way 
>> up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she 
>> has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down 
>> or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best 
>> advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using 
>> a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the 
>> best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for 
>> casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).
>>
>> Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes 
>> with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.  
>> Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on 
>> bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary 
>> exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and 
>> strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's 
>> body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are 
>> practical alternatives.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Patrick Moore

I generally agree with George's information, only "honking" means standing
and pushing hard on the pedals, usually uphill. I think it's an old British
term. Also, I don't think that you use the hooks for drafting, tho' I
confess that my knowledge here is gained from reading, since I have never
ridden except in the most temporary and casual of pace lines.

But I do agree (same caveat) that Platypuses and such are *not* optimized
for fast paceline riding, while the fast boys' CF racing bikes are..

Back to regular programming.

Patrick Moore, who "got into" cycling at age 14, the year before the book
came out.


On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 1:25 PM George Schick  wrote:

> I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book
> of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In
> his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five
> or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road
> bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him
> riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be
> positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index
> finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the
> downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the
> bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these
> positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary
> through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the
> hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching
> a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the
> brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated
> and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way
> up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she
> has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down
> or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best
> advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using
> a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the
> best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for
> casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).
>
> Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes
> with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.
> Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on
> bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary
> exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and
> strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's
> body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are
> practical alternatives.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread George Schick

I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of 
Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In 
his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five 
or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road 
bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him 
riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be 
positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index 
finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the 
downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the 
bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these 
positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary 
through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the 
hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching 
a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the 
brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated 
and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way 
up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she 
has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down 
or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best 
advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using 
a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the 
best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for 
casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).

Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes 
with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.  
Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on 
bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary 
exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and 
strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's 
body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are 
practical alternatives.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:32:19 PM UTC-5 John Dewey wrote:

> I've been engaged with the pros / cons of group rides for many years. And, 
> despite my best efforts to see it clearly, I still waffle to and fro.
>
> These days, I'm always the only guy riding fly-by-wire steel and have 
> little in common with the folks on plastic bikes. There is no idle talk 
> about equipment (most drop their bikes off to have tires mounted). But I 
> like a well-organized paceline because it makes me stronger and builds 
> fitness. I have no lofty goals other than being able to ride 50 miles with 
> ease. In this regard, riding with a strong group is a means to an end. I 
> also feed on the euphoria of living the moment. It's exhilarating—the 
> speed, the awareness, the 'aliveness'...maybe even* the danger*. 
>
> There is no past, no future, only *now*.
>
> But I enjoy—equally—long rides out into the countryside all by myself. I 
> never *feel* alone; I'm not concerned for my safety. I love the silence 
> and amuse myself as I get lost in my head. Though we are lured by the 
> comfort as miles pass by, we must always be sharp, vigilant, and prepared, 
> because each turn leads to the unknown regardless of how many times we've 
> pedaled down the road.
>
> I am quite a bit older than all my riding mates...that reality is hard to 
> ignore. I don't think about it much—as I *feel *youthful and prepared for 
> adventure. But some numbers cannot be ignored. The paceline distorts this 
> reality...and brushes it aside if only temporarily. 
>
> At this point in my life, that's reward enough.
>
> Jock Dewey 
>
> [image: Screenshot 2023-05-17 at 9.41.22 AM.png]
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:58 AM Ted Durant  wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote:
>>
>>  I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have 
>> increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely 
>> in a group ride.  
>>
>>
>> That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are 
>> being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even 
>> before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding 
>> skills create chaos in the pack. 
>>
>> What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an 
>> old fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a 
>> fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel 
>> says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." 
>>
>> The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless 
>> of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same 
>> rhythm 99.9% of the time. 
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee,

Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Jason Fuller

Late to the conversation - great story-telling as always, and highly 
relatable Leah!  I have certainly been there, although maybe not entirely 
by surprise in my case. I ride with friends who have very fast, lightweight 
bikes and I'm never totally sure how much to blame my bike vs. my legs, but 
for sure they both play a role.  

I've been consistently amazed by how effortlessly you've been able to hang 
onto group rides with folks on more typical road bikes, because as much as 
I love an upright Riv, it definitely takes more effort to go the same 
speed.  On flat ground, you lose a bit due to aerodynamics but as you say, 
it's the hills where the difference really becomes significant and I think 
it's largely to do with body position - on our slack seat tube, upright bar 
bikes we're rotated too far back once the road points upwards!  Getting 
forward on the bars helps.  A lot of it is the angle between your legs and 
torso, and also having your torso rotated forward enough to effectively 
counter-balance the forces from your pedal strokes. 

I have enjoyed just gearing down and enjoying the scenery but this breaks 
down if you need to keep up with a fast group 

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 09:23:04 UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

> That's a funny story. Long ago my then-wife/now ex-wife decided to try out 
> the Spinning (tm) class at the nearby gym. Her only cycling experience was 
> about 25 miles total on our 2 tandems (on the first of which -- wholly 
> inappropriate lightweight 531C Orbit racing tandem that wagged like a dog 
> under 2 neophytes -- our inaugural and sole ride ended up with the steerer 
> breaking and sending both of us over the bar).
>
> Anyway, she went to the gym and found it full of die-hard Spinning 
> aficionados with an aggressive coach. The first kefuffle was that she wore 
> regular athletic shoes, but they got her more or less sorted, and she 
> embarked on such a purgatorial ride that about 1/2 way through she came 
> close to fainting and falling off the machine, stopping the class so others 
> could resuscitate her and ask her if she needed a doctor (she is a doctor). 
> That was her last Spinning class. She took up guns and whisky and cigars -- 
> tough little 5'2" 2nd-gen Taiwan Chinese.
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:01 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>
>> My comical "getting in over my head" story is not a cycling story, but I 
>> think it still has familiar emotions
>>
>> My wife is an avid flamenco afficionado.  She takes classes multiple 
>> times per week, attends shows almost every weekend, and savors the Spanish, 
>> Gypsy and North African cultural streams that all mix together.  The SF Bay 
>> Area has a small but vibrant flamenco community, so usually if you go to a 
>> medium sized show with 100 people in the audience, you're going to see 
>> familiar faces.  At small shows, you might know everybody.  Performers from 
>> the last show will be in the audience of this show, etc.  One of the 
>> traditional parts of flamenco is a percussion element.  It's a wooden snare 
>> drum in the shape of a box.  The Cajon.  The drummer sits on the Cajon and 
>> plays on the front face of the instrument, making a surprising array of 
>> sounds.  
>>
>> I'm recognized in this small community because I go to a lot of shows, 
>> but I don't dance, sing, or play an instrument.  My wife had the idea that 
>> we could learn cajon together.  Several years back, a visitor from Spain 
>> was holding a workshop in San Francisco, and she signed us up.  The 
>> description said "all levels welcome".  I asked "will they have a cajon for 
>> each of us to borrow?"  She said "they must!  All levels!"  
>>
>> We got there and every student was a professional percussionist.  There 
>> were 8 students in total.  Every student had their own cajon, and the class 
>> was entirely in Spanish.  There were no familiar faces.  My wife and I had 
>> to play on the tops of our thighs.  My wife was familiar with all the 
>> rhythms, since she had many years of dancing experience, and was used to 
>> doing *palmas, *which is the clapping accompaniment that is done at 
>> flamenco shows. So she did fine.  Then there's me, desperately wanting to 
>> dig a hole in the ground to crawl into and never be heard from again.  I 
>> had Literally.  No.  Clue.  The only saving grace is that by being almost 
>> completely silent I was easy to ignore, so i didn't disrupt anybody else's 
>> experience.  Also, the experience was sufficiently humiliating to be 
>> humorous.  Something completely absurd at least gave me the solace "Well, 
>> this is going to make a good story".  
>>
>> There is definitely "pushing the limits" of one's comfort zone, and then 
>> there is "you do not belong here".  That first cajon experience was 
>> definitely the latter.  There's pushing oneself up a level, and there's 
>> imposter syndrome, pretending to belong when you probably don't (or 
>> thinking you don't belong when you actually do

Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Patrick Moore

That's a funny story. Long ago my then-wife/now ex-wife decided to try out
the Spinning (tm) class at the nearby gym. Her only cycling experience was
about 25 miles total on our 2 tandems (on the first of which -- wholly
inappropriate lightweight 531C Orbit racing tandem that wagged like a dog
under 2 neophytes -- our inaugural and sole ride ended up with the steerer
breaking and sending both of us over the bar).

Anyway, she went to the gym and found it full of die-hard Spinning
aficionados with an aggressive coach. The first kefuffle was that she wore
regular athletic shoes, but they got her more or less sorted, and she
embarked on such a purgatorial ride that about 1/2 way through she came
close to fainting and falling off the machine, stopping the class so others
could resuscitate her and ask her if she needed a doctor (she is a doctor).
That was her last Spinning class. She took up guns and whisky and cigars --
tough little 5'2" 2nd-gen Taiwan Chinese.

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:01 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> My comical "getting in over my head" story is not a cycling story, but I
> think it still has familiar emotions
>
> My wife is an avid flamenco afficionado.  She takes classes multiple times
> per week, attends shows almost every weekend, and savors the Spanish, Gypsy
> and North African cultural streams that all mix together.  The SF Bay Area
> has a small but vibrant flamenco community, so usually if you go to a
> medium sized show with 100 people in the audience, you're going to see
> familiar faces.  At small shows, you might know everybody.  Performers from
> the last show will be in the audience of this show, etc.  One of the
> traditional parts of flamenco is a percussion element.  It's a wooden snare
> drum in the shape of a box.  The Cajon.  The drummer sits on the Cajon and
> plays on the front face of the instrument, making a surprising array of
> sounds.
>
> I'm recognized in this small community because I go to a lot of shows, but
> I don't dance, sing, or play an instrument.  My wife had the idea that we
> could learn cajon together.  Several years back, a visitor from Spain was
> holding a workshop in San Francisco, and she signed us up.  The description
> said "all levels welcome".  I asked "will they have a cajon for each of us
> to borrow?"  She said "they must!  All levels!"
>
> We got there and every student was a professional percussionist.  There
> were 8 students in total.  Every student had their own cajon, and the class
> was entirely in Spanish.  There were no familiar faces.  My wife and I had
> to play on the tops of our thighs.  My wife was familiar with all the
> rhythms, since she had many years of dancing experience, and was used to
> doing *palmas, *which is the clapping accompaniment that is done at
> flamenco shows. So she did fine.  Then there's me, desperately wanting to
> dig a hole in the ground to crawl into and never be heard from again.  I
> had Literally.  No.  Clue.  The only saving grace is that by being almost
> completely silent I was easy to ignore, so i didn't disrupt anybody else's
> experience.  Also, the experience was sufficiently humiliating to be
> humorous.  Something completely absurd at least gave me the solace "Well,
> this is going to make a good story".
>
> There is definitely "pushing the limits" of one's comfort zone, and then
> there is "you do not belong here".  That first cajon experience was
> definitely the latter.  There's pushing oneself up a level, and there's
> imposter syndrome, pretending to belong when you probably don't (or
> thinking you don't belong when you actually do belong).  Finally there is
> being a complete stowaway.
>
> Since then, we found a cajon player who had taught classes before COVID
> but had stopped.  We got a small group of friends together to do a beginner
> class.  We host it in our livingroom.  Now we're several months in, and we
> did our first recital on-stage during intermission of a small show.  Our
> teacher, Marlon, is now one of our very close friends.  The cajon my wife
> bought me for Christmas 2015 is more than a coffee table now.  So it's all
> worked out.
>

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[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Bill Lindsay

My comical "getting in over my head" story is not a cycling story, but I 
think it still has familiar emotions

My wife is an avid flamenco afficionado.  She takes classes multiple times 
per week, attends shows almost every weekend, and savors the Spanish, Gypsy 
and North African cultural streams that all mix together.  The SF Bay Area 
has a small but vibrant flamenco community, so usually if you go to a 
medium sized show with 100 people in the audience, you're going to see 
familiar faces.  At small shows, you might know everybody.  Performers from 
the last show will be in the audience of this show, etc.  One of the 
traditional parts of flamenco is a percussion element.  It's a wooden snare 
drum in the shape of a box.  The Cajon.  The drummer sits on the Cajon and 
plays on the front face of the instrument, making a surprising array of 
sounds.  

I'm recognized in this small community because I go to a lot of shows, but 
I don't dance, sing, or play an instrument.  My wife had the idea that we 
could learn cajon together.  Several years back, a visitor from Spain was 
holding a workshop in San Francisco, and she signed us up.  The description 
said "all levels welcome".  I asked "will they have a cajon for each of us 
to borrow?"  She said "they must!  All levels!"  

We got there and every student was a professional percussionist.  There 
were 8 students in total.  Every student had their own cajon, and the class 
was entirely in Spanish.  There were no familiar faces.  My wife and I had 
to play on the tops of our thighs.  My wife was familiar with all the 
rhythms, since she had many years of dancing experience, and was used to 
doing *palmas, *which is the clapping accompaniment that is done at 
flamenco shows. So she did fine.  Then there's me, desperately wanting to 
dig a hole in the ground to crawl into and never be heard from again.  I 
had Literally.  No.  Clue.  The only saving grace is that by being almost 
completely silent I was easy to ignore, so i didn't disrupt anybody else's 
experience.  Also, the experience was sufficiently humiliating to be 
humorous.  Something completely absurd at least gave me the solace "Well, 
this is going to make a good story".  

There is definitely "pushing the limits" of one's comfort zone, and then 
there is "you do not belong here".  That first cajon experience was 
definitely the latter.  There's pushing oneself up a level, and there's 
imposter syndrome, pretending to belong when you probably don't (or 
thinking you don't belong when you actually do belong).  Finally there is 
being a complete stowaway.  

Since then, we found a cajon player who had taught classes before COVID but 
had stopped.  We got a small group of friends together to do a beginner 
class.  We host it in our livingroom.  Now we're several months in, and we 
did our first recital on-stage during intermission of a small show.  Our 
teacher, Marlon, is now one of our very close friends.  The cajon my wife 
bought me for Christmas 2015 is more than a coffee table now.  So it's all 
worked out.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 6:13:53 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

> I just want to talk bikes. I don’t have anything to post FS or WTB…I just 
> want to tell Riv people this dumb story that happened this morning. You can 
> laugh or you can roll your eyes, or you can chime in with your own dumb 
> story of getting in over your own dumb heads.
>
> This is my second season of club riding. I was new to it last year, and 
> now that our weather is finally cooperating, I’m back.
>
> Last week, our bike club started a new ride. It would be on Monday 
> mornings and only 5 miles from my house. The pace was to be 
> “conversational” which I took to mean ‘riding at a pace you can still have 
> a conversation at.’ (I now know that could not be what it meant.) The route 
> would be new. The details were fuzzy - word was, the ride leader would make 
> decisions about pace and miles once people arrived. Now, I know Platypuses 
> are not going to fare well in the 18-21 mph crowd, but I knew that two 
> women upwards of 70 did this ride last week. I figured I’d be fine.
>
> I was the second to arrive; the first being the president of our bike 
> club. He was pulling his gravel bike out of his truck. He’s a roadie and he 
> leads the 17-18 mph groups. Hmmm.  We’re friendly; I’m glad to know one 
> person on the ride, but if he is here, how fast are we going? Two more 
> people arrive; both men, roadies, and they pull jet-black, lethal-looking, 
> feather-light carbon bikes from their vehicles. They are strangers to me.
>
> Ok, well, it’s going to be fine. Who cares if you’re the only woman. So 
> what if you’re wearing your pink pants. Clutching the wide, sweepy bars of 
> your sparkly pink Platypus. Their eyes are hidden behind their Oakleys, and 
> I imagine what they are thinking - “She cannot be serious.” 
>
> Behind my Oakleys, I am thinking, “I cannot be

[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Ted Durant

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote:

 I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have 
increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely 
in a group ride.  


That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are 
being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even 
before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding 
skills create chaos in the pack. 

What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an old 
fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a 
fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel 
says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." 

The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless 
of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same 
rhythm 99.9% of the time. 

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Bill Schairer

In addition to all that has been said, I find gearing can make a huge 
difference.  I've geared each of my bikes for a different style of riding.  
My Atlantis is geared for loaded touring and currently has 50mm tires for 
off pavement capability.  It has lower gears and bigger steps between gears 
than the bike I prefer for an unloaded ride on pavement.  I think I am 
slower on the Atlantis because I have more trouble hitting the perfect 
cadence/effort for the particular conditions.  I also feel it is easier to 
pace with others with tighter gearing steps.  Having another rear wheel 
with a different cassette, your "club ride" wheel, might extend the 
capabilities of your Platy?

Bill S
San Diego

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:14:16 AM UTC-7 ascpgh wrote:

> Leah's true sufferfest may have been reduced tolerance to the over 
> necessity of all the "go-fast" gear, the seeming standard issue of the 
> average bicyclist, while under the duress of her 10/10ths performance. The 
> interesting part is that she did more on that ride than the rest. All their 
> stiffer, lighter and aero stuff just being cheat codes for the work at 
> hand. If part of her bicycling has to do with exercise and enjoying the 
> ride, Leah got more than them.
>
> We all find our sweet spot in bicycling, what we like, what rewards us, 
> what becomes our focus. On that path we evolve towards perfecting that and 
> it's jarring when contrast is implied (or obtusely verbalized). It is very 
> much a tangent to enjoy the process, its duration and the surroundings.
>
> Most advances have been shortcuts for reducing work or doing it in less 
> time so we could get back to the cave to paint another bison or the couch 
> for TV.  What cyclists do with the saved time and reduced effort is 
> interesting, if they are even aware of accruing it.  
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:31:20 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> I would also like to see a video of my suffering. And handlebar streamers 
>> and white basket will be forthcoming. 
>>
>> I wondered why I wasn’t faster in the downhill, too. I’m thinking it’s 
>> because though my bike is heavier, my bodyweight is less than theirs. I’m 
>> hard for the women to keep up with on the downhills…
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 16, 2023, at 11:43 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar 
>> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon 
>> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. 
>>
>> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely 
>> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" 
>> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead 
>> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me 
>> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>>
>> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia 
>> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of 
>> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 
>> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and 
>> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" 
>> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the 
>> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a 
>> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very 
>> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>>
>> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out 
>> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread ascpgh

Leah's true sufferfest may have been reduced tolerance to the over 
necessity of all the "go-fast" gear, the seeming standard issue of the 
average bicyclist, while under the duress of her 10/10ths performance. The 
interesting part is that she did more on that ride than the rest. All their 
stiffer, lighter and aero stuff just being cheat codes for the work at 
hand. If part of her bicycling has to do with exercise and enjoying the 
ride, Leah got more than them.

We all find our sweet spot in bicycling, what we like, what rewards us, 
what becomes our focus. On that path we evolve towards perfecting that and 
it's jarring when contrast is implied (or obtusely verbalized). It is very 
much a tangent to enjoy the process, its duration and the surroundings.

Most advances have been shortcuts for reducing work or doing it in less 
time so we could get back to the cave to paint another bison or the couch 
for TV.  What cyclists do with the saved time and reduced effort is 
interesting, if they are even aware of accruing it.  

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:31:20 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

> I would also like to see a video of my suffering. And handlebar streamers 
> and white basket will be forthcoming. 
>
> I wondered why I wasn’t faster in the downhill, too. I’m thinking it’s 
> because though my bike is heavier, my bodyweight is less than theirs. I’m 
> hard for the women to keep up with on the downhills…
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2023, at 11:43 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar 
> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon 
> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. 
>
> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely 
> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" 
> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead 
> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me 
> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>
> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia 
> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of 
> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 
> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and 
> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" 
> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the 
> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a 
> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very 
> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>
> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out 
> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.
>>
>> Brian
>>
> -- 
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-17 Thread Jay LePree

Leah - It is Jersey Jay.  Platypus owner via Analogue.  It seems that while 
the ride was unpleasant, you did keep up, which is quite impressive.  I am 
approach my 56th trip around the sun in Dec, and about 15 years ago, much 
attibutable to what you experienced, I stopped my group rides.  It is true 
that a group ride will make one a stronger rider, but at some point, I 
realized that I did not need to be a stronger rider and struck out on my 
own.  I noticed another poster mentioned that crashes due occur on some of 
these group rides, particularly that fast ones.  Yes, I have observed 
them.  The pros can ride inches away from the wheels of those in front of 
and behind them.  We are not pros and I saw crashes happen because of it.  
I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have 
increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely 
in a group ride.  

IF (a big IF) I do go back to group rides (we have a northern NJ touring 
group where I live), it will be with the C and C+ group rides.  You get to 
meet new people, and they have been traditionally respectful of agreed upon 
pace.  (Athough there, I have seen speed creep up into the B to B+ pace.)

Enjoy the ride,

Jay 
Demarest, NJ

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 9:13:53 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

> I just want to talk bikes. I don’t have anything to post FS or WTB…I just 
> want to tell Riv people this dumb story that happened this morning. You can 
> laugh or you can roll your eyes, or you can chime in with your own dumb 
> story of getting in over your own dumb heads.
>
> This is my second season of club riding. I was new to it last year, and 
> now that our weather is finally cooperating, I’m back.
>
> Last week, our bike club started a new ride. It would be on Monday 
> mornings and only 5 miles from my house. The pace was to be 
> “conversational” which I took to mean ‘riding at a pace you can still have 
> a conversation at.’ (I now know that could not be what it meant.) The route 
> would be new. The details were fuzzy - word was, the ride leader would make 
> decisions about pace and miles once people arrived. Now, I know Platypuses 
> are not going to fare well in the 18-21 mph crowd, but I knew that two 
> women upwards of 70 did this ride last week. I figured I’d be fine.
>
> I was the second to arrive; the first being the president of our bike 
> club. He was pulling his gravel bike out of his truck. He’s a roadie and he 
> leads the 17-18 mph groups. Hmmm.  We’re friendly; I’m glad to know one 
> person on the ride, but if he is here, how fast are we going? Two more 
> people arrive; both men, roadies, and they pull jet-black, lethal-looking, 
> feather-light carbon bikes from their vehicles. They are strangers to me.
>
> Ok, well, it’s going to be fine. Who cares if you’re the only woman. So 
> what if you’re wearing your pink pants. Clutching the wide, sweepy bars of 
> your sparkly pink Platypus. Their eyes are hidden behind their Oakleys, and 
> I imagine what they are thinking - “She cannot be serious.” 
>
> Behind my Oakleys, I am thinking, “I cannot be serious.” 
>
> The three of them begin to discuss the route and the pace. The ride leader 
> says, “The route is hilly. Let’s keep a 17 mph pace in the flats.” As soon 
> as I hear that the route is hilly, I want OUT. I have always kept up in my 
> club rides, but hills are the one thing that the Platypus does not do well. 
> Oh, a Platypus can climb, but don’t ask it to do it at high speeds. I use 
> momentum to get me uphill. To compensate, I always shoot ahead of the 
> group, but I slow on the incline and those carbon bikes are gaining on me 
> near the top. About the time they catch me, I’m back up to speed and am 
> innocent of causing anyone to slow down, but that extra effort is the price 
> I pay. The game is: Never Make Them Slow Down For You Even If You Have A 
> Heart Attack. 
>
> My mind is searching for a way out. I don’t have a good feeling about 
> this. It’s early in the season. Maybe if I was in tip top, but today? But 
> then came introductions. J, the president says, “This is Leah. She’s fine. 
> She can keep up with us.” Liar, I think.
>
> And with that, we are off.
>
> We hit a hill right out the gate. I’m toward the back because I don’t know 
> the route. They are calmly approaching that hill, not changing speed. I’m 
> confused. They’re slowing me up; it’s too late for me to get around them. I 
> will not have the burst of speed I need to start that hill. And worse, I’m 
> in too high of a gear. I have friction shifting - and now I’m committed. I 
> am desperate not to look like a fool. I am standing on my pedals, wishing 
> for the first time in my life that I am 10 pounds heavier. All my weight on 
> the left pedal. All my weight on the right pedal. Tossing the bike side to 
> side. Panting. Heart wildly beating. Wishing I was somewhere else. I don’t 
> know if I can do this, and we have just begun.

[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread Joe Bernard

Hehe, this is my secret plan for if I'm ever on a Leah group ride: a hidden 
motor in the downtube 

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:39:39 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> I just realized that I forgot to mention the easiest way to keep up: I 
> converted my wife's Cheviot into an ebike. 
> https://blog.piaw.net/2020/12/installation-review-swytch-e-bike.html
>
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:26 PM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:
>
>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Have you ever gotten in over your head?
>>
>>
>> Well, Leah, if you'd really been in over your head you'd have drowned :-) 
>>  Sounds to me like, even though it was a harder effort you are used to, you 
>> performed quite well. That's a good testament to the fitness you've 
>> developed over the last few years.
>>
>> As for the "would a different bike help" part of the thread ... as others 
>> have said, it's a lot more about position than it is about the bike, per 
>> se. Of course, the bike dictates, to some extent, the position. Position 
>> does a few things ... one, as mentioned, is aerodynamics, reducing 
>> coefficient of drag, which becomes exponentially important as speed 
>> increases, but much less so if you're tucked into a group (until you're at 
>> the front!); another is that a forward-lean recruits more/different muscle 
>> groups to keep the pedals spinning at higher effort; and a third is that 
>> climbing out of the saddle requires enough distance to the handlebars to 
>> get over the pedals when the bike is on a steep upslope.  That said, my 
>> experience has been that my Cheviot was hands-down the slowest bike I've 
>> owned, regardless of position. I have no idea why. Also, there is one part 
>> of the bike where you can buy speed, and that's the tires. Though, it looks 
>> like your Platy is on Ultradynamicos, so you might be good there. I 
>> guarantee you a few pounds of bike weight won't make any difference.  
>>
>> My recommendation, fwiw, if you are thinking about a "road bike" would be 
>> to not go straight to something like a Roadeo or Roadini, as that would be 
>> a big change and take quite a bit of time to adjust. I have a Riv Road 
>> custom with a Campy group on it, but I would not hesitate to ride my Sam 
>> Hillborne on a fast group ride. The position on it is half way between your 
>> current Platy and a "road bike", and I think would be an easier transition.
>>
>> One more thing ... riding in a group requires specific skills, awareness, 
>> and communication. From your previous posts it sounds like you've developed 
>> those pretty well. But the stakes get higher as the speeds get higher and, 
>> as you noticed, the tolerances get tighter. Fast rides mean staying a few 
>> inches off the wheel in front of you and that means very little reaction 
>> time when stuff happens. I like your approach of getting to the front as 
>> hills approach, and the fact that you can ride off the front like that 
>> speaks volumes about how strong you are. However, it can be really 
>> disruptive for a group to have a gap open and then close. So, my suggestion 
>> is to not worry about getting any distance on the group, but definitely try 
>> to get to the front at the start of a climb. In a good group, there's 
>> always a nice, smooth rotation, one line moving up, one line moving back, 
>> so it's easy to get to the front at the start of a climb and slowly drop 
>> back as you go up. Just be aware that, for a lot of fast group rides, LOTS 
>> of people are going to be jockeying for that position cuz they are badass 
>> and need to show it. In the ride you described, it sounds like a small 
>> group and that wasn't the case. It would have been totally appropriate to 
>> talk to the others about how you like to rotate on the hills. It's really 
>> important for the group to agree on which side is moving up and which side 
>> is dropping back. In general, going up hills (in places where we ride on 
>> the right hand side of the road) the slower people should be on the right 
>> and the faster on the left. 
>>
>> Oh, and yeah, I've gone over my head. My last boss before I retired was a 
>> serious triathlete and I rode with him a fair amount. One of our last rides 
>> he said he wanted to do 5 hours at an easy pace. I brought food and drink, 
>> accordingly. He was averaging 20+ and I was near my aerobic threshold most 
>> of the time. Definitely did not have the right food for that sort of ride, 
>> and I paid for it dearly.
>>
>> Ted Durant
>> Milwaukee, WI USA
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread Piaw Na

I just realized that I forgot to mention the easiest way to keep up: I 
converted my wife's Cheviot into an 
ebike. https://blog.piaw.net/2020/12/installation-review-swytch-e-bike.html

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:26 PM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
>
> Have you ever gotten in over your head?
>
>
> Well, Leah, if you'd really been in over your head you'd have drowned :-) 
>  Sounds to me like, even though it was a harder effort you are used to, you 
> performed quite well. That's a good testament to the fitness you've 
> developed over the last few years.
>
> As for the "would a different bike help" part of the thread ... as others 
> have said, it's a lot more about position than it is about the bike, per 
> se. Of course, the bike dictates, to some extent, the position. Position 
> does a few things ... one, as mentioned, is aerodynamics, reducing 
> coefficient of drag, which becomes exponentially important as speed 
> increases, but much less so if you're tucked into a group (until you're at 
> the front!); another is that a forward-lean recruits more/different muscle 
> groups to keep the pedals spinning at higher effort; and a third is that 
> climbing out of the saddle requires enough distance to the handlebars to 
> get over the pedals when the bike is on a steep upslope.  That said, my 
> experience has been that my Cheviot was hands-down the slowest bike I've 
> owned, regardless of position. I have no idea why. Also, there is one part 
> of the bike where you can buy speed, and that's the tires. Though, it looks 
> like your Platy is on Ultradynamicos, so you might be good there. I 
> guarantee you a few pounds of bike weight won't make any difference.  
>
> My recommendation, fwiw, if you are thinking about a "road bike" would be 
> to not go straight to something like a Roadeo or Roadini, as that would be 
> a big change and take quite a bit of time to adjust. I have a Riv Road 
> custom with a Campy group on it, but I would not hesitate to ride my Sam 
> Hillborne on a fast group ride. The position on it is half way between your 
> current Platy and a "road bike", and I think would be an easier transition.
>
> One more thing ... riding in a group requires specific skills, awareness, 
> and communication. From your previous posts it sounds like you've developed 
> those pretty well. But the stakes get higher as the speeds get higher and, 
> as you noticed, the tolerances get tighter. Fast rides mean staying a few 
> inches off the wheel in front of you and that means very little reaction 
> time when stuff happens. I like your approach of getting to the front as 
> hills approach, and the fact that you can ride off the front like that 
> speaks volumes about how strong you are. However, it can be really 
> disruptive for a group to have a gap open and then close. So, my suggestion 
> is to not worry about getting any distance on the group, but definitely try 
> to get to the front at the start of a climb. In a good group, there's 
> always a nice, smooth rotation, one line moving up, one line moving back, 
> so it's easy to get to the front at the start of a climb and slowly drop 
> back as you go up. Just be aware that, for a lot of fast group rides, LOTS 
> of people are going to be jockeying for that position cuz they are badass 
> and need to show it. In the ride you described, it sounds like a small 
> group and that wasn't the case. It would have been totally appropriate to 
> talk to the others about how you like to rotate on the hills. It's really 
> important for the group to agree on which side is moving up and which side 
> is dropping back. In general, going up hills (in places where we ride on 
> the right hand side of the road) the slower people should be on the right 
> and the faster on the left. 
>
> Oh, and yeah, I've gone over my head. My last boss before I retired was a 
> serious triathlete and I rode with him a fair amount. One of our last rides 
> he said he wanted to do 5 hours at an easy pace. I brought food and drink, 
> accordingly. He was averaging 20+ and I was near my aerobic threshold most 
> of the time. Definitely did not have the right food for that sort of ride, 
> and I paid for it dearly.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>

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[RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread Ted Durant

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Have you ever gotten in over your head?

Well, Leah, if you'd really been in over your head you'd have drowned :-)
Sounds to me like, even though it was a harder effort you are used to, you
performed quite well. That's a good testament to the fitness you've
developed over the last few years.

As for the "would a different bike help" part of the thread ... as others
have said, it's a lot more about position than it is about the bike, per
se. Of course, the bike dictates, to some extent, the position. Position
does a few things ... one, as mentioned, is aerodynamics, reducing
coefficient of drag, which becomes exponentially important as speed
increases, but much less so if you're tucked into a group (until you're at
the front!); another is that a forward-lean recruits more/different muscle
groups to keep the pedals spinning at higher effort; and a third is that
climbing out of the saddle requires enough distance to the handlebars to
get over the pedals when the bike is on a steep upslope. That said, my
experience has been that my Cheviot was hands-down the slowest bike I've
owned, regardless of position. I have no idea why. Also, there is one part
of the bike where you can buy speed, and that's the tires. Though, it looks
like your Platy is on Ultradynamicos, so you might be good there. I
guarantee you a few pounds of bike weight won't make any difference.

My recommendation, fwiw, if you are thinking about a "road bike" would be
to not go straight to something like a Roadeo or Roadini, as that would be
a big change and take quite a bit of time to adjust. I have a Riv Road
custom with a Campy group on it, but I would not hesitate to ride my Sam
Hillborne on a fast group ride. The position on it is half way between your
current Platy and a "road bike", and I think would be an easier transition.

One more thing ... riding in a group requires specific skills, awareness,
and communication. From your previous posts it sounds like you've developed
those pretty well. But the stakes get higher as the speeds get higher and,
as you noticed, the tolerances get tighter. Fast rides mean staying a few
inches off the wheel in front of you and that means very little reaction
time when stuff happens. I like your approach of getting to the front as
hills approach, and the fact that you can ride off the front like that
speaks volumes about how strong you are. However, it can be really
disruptive for a group to have a gap open and then close. So, my suggestion
is to not worry about getting any distance on the group, but definitely try
to get to the front at the start of a climb. In a good group, there's
always a nice, smooth rotation, one line moving up, one line moving back,
so it's easy to get to the front at the start of a climb and slowly drop
back as you go up. Just be aware that, for a lot of fast group rides, LOTS
of people are going to be jockeying for that position cuz they are badass
and need to show it. In the ride you described, it sounds like a small
group and that wasn't the case. It would have been totally appropriate to
talk to the others about how you like to rotate on the hills. It's really
important for the group to agree on which side is moving up and which side
is dropping back. In general, going up hills (in places where we ride on
the right hand side of the road) the slower people should be on the right
and the faster on the left.

Oh, and yeah, I've gone over my head. My last boss before I retired was a
serious triathlete and I rode with him a fair amount. One of our last rides
he said he wanted to do 5 hours at an easy pace. I brought food and drink,
accordingly. He was averaging 20+ and I was near my aerobic threshold most
of the time. Definitely did not have the right food for that sort of ride,
and I paid for it dearly.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread Doug H.

Leah,
I would LOVE to do a Clem ride. I wish geography wasn't a barrier but if we 
can get a few Clem riders in the same location that would be a blast! For 
the record, I was even riding a carbon road bike while being pushed up 
hill. Yes, it was humbling. lol
Doug

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:37:38 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

> Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you!  It’s so humbling, right? 
> We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at home. We’d 
> call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride. 
>
> The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a 
> distant memory.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H.  wrote:
>
> I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up 
> but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort 
> not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My 
> heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another 
> day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10 
> mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep 
> that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when 
> I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of 
> mine!!
>
>
> I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder 
> than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would 
> keep if I could only have one.
> Doug
>
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar 
>> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon 
>> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. 
>>
>> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely 
>> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" 
>> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead 
>> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me 
>> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>>
>> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia 
>> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of 
>> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 
>> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and 
>> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" 
>> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the 
>> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a 
>> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very 
>> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>>
>> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out 
>> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread 藍俊彪

The Cheviot's my wife's bike, so it was just that once. I ride the triplet
or my custom touring bike for club rides.

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 1:54 PM Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> Piaw, no way! This is so amusing. I would have LOVED a photo.
>
> Do you ever ride your Cheviot on club rides or just that once?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2023, at 4:45 PM, Piaw Na  wrote:
>
> 
> When Grant Petersen was visiting the south bay, we went on a ride with him
> organized by the Bicycle Outfitter. My girlfriend and I was on a tandem,
> and of course we weren't keeping up. So he rode up to us and started
> pushing us with his hand on my girlfriend's back. Then Mark rode up and
> started helping by pushing on Grant's back. They're amazing bike handlers
> (as well as very strong).
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 1:37 PM Leah Peterson 
> wrote:
>
>> Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you!  It’s so humbling,
>> right? We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at
>> home. We’d call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride.
>>
>> The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a
>> distant memory.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H.  wrote:
>>
>> I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up
>> but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort
>> not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My
>> heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another
>> day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10
>> mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep
>> that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when
>> I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of
>> mine!!
>>
>> I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder
>> than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would
>> keep if I could only have one.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar
>>> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon
>>> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone.
>>>
>>> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely
>>> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles"
>>> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead
>>> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me
>>> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>>>
>>> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia
>>> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of
>>> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in
>>> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and
>>> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76"
>>> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the
>>> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a
>>> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very
>>> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>>>
>>> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out
>>> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>>>
 Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.

 Brian

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Piaw, no way! This is so amusing. I would have LOVED a photo. Do you ever ride your Cheviot on club rides or just that once?Sent from my iPhoneOn May 16, 2023, at 4:45 PM, Piaw Na wrote:When Grant Petersen was visiting the south bay, we went on a ride with him organized by the Bicycle Outfitter. My girlfriend and I was on a tandem, and of course we weren't keeping up. So he rode up to us and started pushing us with his hand on my girlfriend's back. Then Mark rode up and started helping by pushing on Grant's back. They're amazing bike handlers (as well as very strong).On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 1:37 PM Leah Peterson wrote:Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you!  It’s so humbling, right? We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at home. We’d call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride. The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a distant memory.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H. wrote:I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10 mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of mine!!I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would keep if I could only have one.DougOn Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)4 years ago I did several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out the 76" gear much of the way home.On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee wrote:Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.Brian

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Thanks, Brian and Joe! Everything I do scares me now. It’s my new thing. Keeps me humble and makes for some funny chitchat here.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 16, 2023, at 4:45 PM, Piaw Na wrote:When Grant Petersen was visiting the south bay, we went on a ride with him organized by the Bicycle Outfitter. My girlfriend and I was on a tandem, and of course we weren't keeping up. So he rode up to us and started pushing us with his hand on my girlfriend's back. Then Mark rode up and started helping by pushing on Grant's back. They're amazing bike handlers (as well as very strong).On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 1:37 PM Leah Peterson wrote:Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you!  It’s so humbling, right? We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at home. We’d call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride. The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a distant memory.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H. wrote:I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10 mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of mine!!I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would keep if I could only have one.DougOn Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)4 years ago I did several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out the 76" gear much of the way home.On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee wrote:Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.Brian

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread 藍俊彪

When Grant Petersen was visiting the south bay, we went on a ride with him
organized by the Bicycle Outfitter. My girlfriend and I was on a tandem,
and of course we weren't keeping up. So he rode up to us and started
pushing us with his hand on my girlfriend's back. Then Mark rode up and
started helping by pushing on Grant's back. They're amazing bike handlers
(as well as very strong).

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 1:37 PM Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you!  It’s so humbling, right?
> We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at home. We’d
> call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride.
>
> The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a
> distant memory.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H.  wrote:
>
> I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up
> but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort
> not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My
> heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another
> day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10
> mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep
> that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when
> I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of
> mine!!
>
> I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder
> than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would
> keep if I could only have one.
> Doug
>
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar
>> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon
>> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone.
>>
>> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely
>> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles"
>> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead
>> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me
>> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>>
>> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia
>> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of
>> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in
>> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and
>> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76"
>> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the
>> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a
>> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very
>> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>>
>> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out
>> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you!  It’s so humbling, right? We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at home. We’d call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride. The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a distant memory.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H. wrote:I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10 mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of mine!!I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would keep if I could only have one.DougOn Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)4 years ago I did several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out the 76" gear much of the way home.On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee wrote:Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.Brian

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread Patrick Moore

What about a Platypus with aero bars? Worked for Greg LeMond. In a color to
match that lovely -- mauve purple? I'm slightly color blind in the red
spectrum (but I still insist that it's lovely).

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 2:31 PM Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> I would also like to see a video of my suffering. And handlebar streamers
> and white basket will be forthcoming.
>
> I wondered why I wasn’t faster in the downhill, too. I’m thinking it’s
> because though my bike is heavier, my bodyweight is less than theirs. I’m
> hard for the women to keep up with on the downhills…
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2023, at 11:43 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
> 
> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar
> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon
> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone.
>
> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely
> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles"
> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead
> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me
> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>
> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia
> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of
> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in
> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and
> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76"
> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the
> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a
> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very
> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>
> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out
> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.
>>
>> Brian
>>
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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

2023-05-16 Thread 藍俊彪

Weight is secondary to aerodynamics. At 15mph, more than half the energy
goes into overcoming air resistance, and that goes up with the cube of the
speed from there.

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 1:31 PM Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> I would also like to see a video of my suffering. And handlebar streamers
> and white basket will be forthcoming.
>
> I wondered why I wasn’t faster in the downhill, too. I’m thinking it’s
> because though my bike is heavier, my bodyweight is less than theirs. I’m
> hard for the women to keep up with on the downhills…
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2023, at 11:43 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
> 
> I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar
> streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon
> fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone.
>
> But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely
> early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles"
> Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead
> because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me
> #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)
>
> 4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia
> labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of
> years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in
> 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and
> rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76"
> gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the
> last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a
> headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very
> kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.
>
> But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out
> the 76" gear much of the way home.
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian Forsee  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.
>>
>> Brian
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head