Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Very true, consistency should be paramount. jb On 20 Feb 2015, at 19:39, Jason S jasonsta...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say both are happy(er) when things are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even microsteps make all the difference. On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov mailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
or we could just make them use maya for thirty days :) On 25/02/2015 15:28, Greg Punchatz wrote: What we have here is failure to communicate. .. Thirty days in the hotbox for the folks that killed xsi! Sent from my iPhone On Feb 25, 2015, at 5:40 AM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com mailto:chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Somewhere maybe Autodesk Managers should now be placed? On 25 February 2015 at 11:37, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com mailto:hack...@outlook.com wrote: Something they put unruly animators in, generally made of corrugated tin I believe. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/ https://vimeo.com/user4174293 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:10:02 + Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: chrismarshal...@gmail.com mailto:chrismarshal...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk http://www.mintmotion.co.uk
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
No-one deserves that level of abuse Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:39:52 +0200 From: nagv...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem or we could just make them use maya for thirty days :) On 25/02/2015 15:28, Greg Punchatz wrote: What we have here is failure to communicate. .. Thirty days in the hotbox for the folks that killed xsi! Sent from my iPhone On Feb 25, 2015, at 5:40 AM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Somewhere maybe Autodesk Managers should now be placed? On 25 February 2015 at 11:37, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: Something they put unruly animators in, generally made of corrugated tin I believe. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/ https://vimeo.com/user4174293 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:10:02 + Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: chrismarshal...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
What we have here is failure to communicate. .. Thirty days in the hotbox for the folks that killed xsi! Sent from my iPhone On Feb 25, 2015, at 5:40 AM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Somewhere maybe Autodesk Managers should now be placed? On 25 February 2015 at 11:37, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: Something they put unruly animators in, generally made of corrugated tin I believe. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/ https://vimeo.com/user4174293 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:10:02 + Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: chrismarshal...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I was going to go a whole nother way with that question..lol Sent from my iPhone On Feb 25, 2015, at 6:40 AM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Somewhere maybe Autodesk Managers should now be placed? On 25 February 2015 at 11:37, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: Something they put unruly animators in, generally made of corrugated tin I believe. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/ https://vimeo.com/user4174293 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:10:02 + Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: chrismarshal...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Its fair to say that I'm very critical of a lot of Maya's UI. The Hotbox however in the early days was quite a novel idea. One must understand that in 1998 Maya was not as massive a program it is today. So in some ways the Hotbox, something that was quite easy to use in the beginning, became quite complex after a decade of new features. Why the Hotbox? Well its simple. In Maya you can turn off practically every viewport, menu bar, shelf, menus, dialog etc until you have nothing but a single blank viewport of your choice and you could still operate the software through the Hotbox. It's a novel idea actually, one that at the time reminded of the early days of 3D when we had menu monitors and the viewports were clean of menus. It struck me that poly or NURBS modelers might find this approach useful. Single mode task for example that required large screen real estate. I used it this way for NURBS occasionally and liked it. Problem is that with every new feature, every new module, Artisan, then PaintFX, Cloth, Fluids, etc the Hotbox kept getting bigger and less pleasant to use. I slowly stopped using it altogether at some point in the early 2000s. While i certainly understand someone having the first impression about the Hotbox that they do today, some historical context is useful however. Time has not been kind to the idea. One that had great promise. But with a lot of other things that AW did back then, they would have these moments of UI inspiration then just totally stop thinking about the UI and spend all their time on improving or adding new core features. In doing so the Hotbox eventually grew into something quite unlike its original appearnce and intent. If the user had been able to create custom contexts for tbe Hotbox, that is custom Hotbox layouts that only included what the user wanted it it, for things relevant only NURBS modeling for example, it may have been more useful. Problem is, the Hotbox theory appeared to be predicated on everything being in the same place so the user could use it gesturally without having to read the menus similar to marking menus. Don't know if they ever managed to implement hotbox contexts. At some point about 2005 I switched back to SI and didnt give it much thought after that. Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Chris Marshall [chrismarshal...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 6:10 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up?
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
In all fairness, Maya GUI is much more customizable than Softimage's one... just saying. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: I'm not talking about zone marking menus. Custom marking menus can be created and there are a handful of contexts that can be used. But thats not what i'm taking about. I'm talking about the Hotbox itself. Being able to hide some or all of it isn't sufficient. I want the ability to create hotbox layouts,choosing only the commands i want and where they are placed in the hotbox. The zone marking menus are an extra step beyong the hotbox, and while they are customizable i don't care to use them. Getting to those commands take two or three extra clicks at which point the using the hotbox no longer interests me. Yeah i know i can hide a lot of the extraneous stuff in the hotbox. But i know of no way to save that as a hotbox layout or hotbox set. Ever try to set up a viewport layout and a hotbox layout to match? Yeah its kind of weird. Get all fairly close to what you want, remove the hotbox file bar and interface filebar for example and i can find no way to save the layout. This is my point. The hotbox is a very novel idea, but its half baked and isnt thought through to its ultimate value. Give me the ability to get to just the commands i want with one click the spacebar, give me alt-spacebar to optionbox any of those commands. Then i will be impressed. Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [ softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Raffaele Fragapane [ raffsxsil...@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 6:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem You can select what appears in the hotbox and what doesn't already, Joey, and you can customise marking menus (which respond to gesture) which are even quicker. Maya's UI is, in most places, borderline disgraceful, the hotbox and the gesture driven contextual menus are not those places.
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Sure. If youre willing to write your own UI or mod every .mel driving the interface, yes thats possible. Been possible since v1.0. AW made a huge frikkin deal about that back in 97. Thats not the point. I'll never forget in 98 there was no invert component selection. What was AW's response to that? Script it, and throw it on the shelf. Not everybody can do that, has the time to do that or experience. Besides its a basic thing that should have been there. Was i customizing the interface by writing my own inverse selection tool, sure. But i should not have had to do that.Thats been the issue since Maya was conceived. If somebody wanted to make the perfect UI for Maya they could do that if they had the time money and ability. The whole things been rewritten in QT but its practically the same thing as the native Maya UI that preceded it. Whats up with that? The developers back in te day produced a fairly reasonable next gen UI for Maya by 97. Using TAV, Power Animator, 3Design and its greatest competitor Softimage 3D as benchmarks, the interface was light years ahead in many ways. Even I will admit it was easier to use than SI3D. Multi selection anyone? Then they completely dropped the ball and failed to follow through. What we have today out of the box is an 18 year old GUI. I frankly could care less if it is customizable if it was designed with the user as an artist in mind. I'm not opposed to customizable UIs. I want to customize it, desire it to be customizable because it isnt designed with artist in mind. The Hotbox is a perfect point. Count the steps to perform any command with it versus the basic interface. In the Hotbox its often 1, 2, or more steps extra. Why would anybody want to use a system like that if they know its going to create so much extra work. Thats illogical. Its an awesome idea, but its traditional implementation is illogical. So close to be something truly beautiful, but not designed with the user in mind. Yes its practical. But the commands you need are not there when you click on the spacebar, you have to keep digging through marking menus to get there, but they should be if you want it that way. You don't have to sell me on the idea of the hotbox, its a very good one. But its not cooked yet. In some ways its an unpleasant experience. Somebody needs to put it back in the oven and let it finish. But that i guess is the true irony of Maya. Its a strong capable and stable software, but often not the most pleasant user interface experience and its available customizations often dont help that situation. Incidentally i don't blame AD for that. They did not design the software, AW did. And only time will tell if AD is able to fix it. Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Cesar Saez [cesa...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 9:07 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem In all fairness, Maya GUI is much more customizable than Softimage's one... just saying. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.govmailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: I'm not talking about zone marking menus. Custom marking menus can be created and there are a handful of contexts that can be used. But thats not what i'm taking about. I'm talking about the Hotbox itself. Being able to hide some or all of it isn't sufficient. I want the ability to create hotbox layouts,choosing only the commands i want and where they are placed in the hotbox. The zone marking menus are an extra step beyong the hotbox, and while they are customizable i don't care to use them. Getting to those commands take two or three extra clicks at which point the using the hotbox no longer interests me. Yeah i know i can hide a lot of the extraneous stuff in the hotbox. But i know of no way to save that as a hotbox layout or hotbox set. Ever try to set up a viewport layout and a hotbox layout to match? Yeah its kind of weird. Get all fairly close to what you want, remove the hotbox file bar and interface filebar for example and i can find no way to save the layout. This is my point. The hotbox is a very novel idea, but its half baked and isnt thought through to its ultimate value. Give me the ability to get to just the commands i want with one click the spacebar, give me alt-spacebar to optionbox any of those commands. Then i will be impressed. Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Raffaele Fragapane [raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 6:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I'm not talking about zone marking menus. Custom marking menus can be created and there are a handful of contexts that can be used. But thats not what i'm taking about. I'm talking about the Hotbox itself. Being able to hide some or all of it isn't sufficient. I want the ability to create hotbox layouts,choosing only the commands i want and where they are placed in the hotbox. The zone marking menus are an extra step beyong the hotbox, and while they are customizable i don't care to use them. Getting to those commands take two or three extra clicks at which point the using the hotbox no longer interests me. Yeah i know i can hide a lot of the extraneous stuff in the hotbox. But i know of no way to save that as a hotbox layout or hotbox set. Ever try to set up a viewport layout and a hotbox layout to match? Yeah its kind of weird. Get all fairly close to what you want, remove the hotbox file bar and interface filebar for example and i can find no way to save the layout. This is my point. The hotbox is a very novel idea, but its half baked and isnt thought through to its ultimate value. Give me the ability to get to just the commands i want with one click the spacebar, give me alt-spacebar to optionbox any of those commands. Then i will be impressed. Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Raffaele Fragapane [raffsxsil...@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 6:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem You can select what appears in the hotbox and what doesn't already, Joey, and you can customise marking menus (which respond to gesture) which are even quicker. Maya's UI is, in most places, borderline disgraceful, the hotbox and the gesture driven contextual menus are not those places.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Re:hotbox: I think this is an edge case, but actually, you can define your own user menu sets in Maya, and when you hide everything, it'll show the current menu sets, which means only what you want to see. And of course you can separately define a custom marking menu on any hotkey, they don't just exist in the hotbox. Pretty much everything is there, but I have a feeling you'll be moving that yardstick forward wherever you need it. On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: I'm not talking about zone marking menus. Custom marking menus can be created and there are a handful of contexts that can be used. But thats not what i'm taking about. I'm talking about the Hotbox itself. Being able to hide some or all of it isn't sufficient. I want the ability to create hotbox layouts,choosing only the commands i want and where they are placed in the hotbox. The zone marking menus are an extra step beyong the hotbox, and while they are customizable i don't care to use them. Getting to those commands take two or three extra clicks at which point the using the hotbox no longer interests me. Yeah i know i can hide a lot of the extraneous stuff in the hotbox. But i know of no way to save that as a hotbox layout or hotbox set. Ever try to set up a viewport layout and a hotbox layout to match? Yeah its kind of weird. Get all fairly close to what you want, remove the hotbox file bar and interface filebar for example and i can find no way to save the layout. This is my point. The hotbox is a very novel idea, but its half baked and isnt thought through to its ultimate value. Give me the ability to get to just the commands i want with one click the spacebar, give me alt-spacebar to optionbox any of those commands. Then i will be impressed. From: Raffaele Fragapane [raffsxsil...@googlemail.com] Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem You can select what appears in the hotbox and what doesn't already, Joey, and you can customise marking menus (which respond to gesture) which are even quicker. Maya's UI is, in most places, borderline disgraceful, the hotbox and the gesture driven contextual menus are not those places.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
You can select what appears in the hotbox and what doesn't already, Joey, and you can customise marking menus (which respond to gesture) which are even quicker. Maya's UI is, in most places, borderline disgraceful, the hotbox and the gesture driven contextual menus are not those places.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up?
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Something they put unruly animators in, generally made of corrugated tin I believe. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/https://vimeo.com/user4174293http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd.If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone.Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:10:02 + Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: chrismarshal...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up?
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Somewhere maybe Autodesk Managers should now be placed? On 25 February 2015 at 11:37, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: Something they put unruly animators in, generally made of corrugated tin I believe. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/ https://vimeo.com/user4174293 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. -- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:10:02 + Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: chrismarshal...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com What's the Hot Box? Or have I just made that up? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
and the good news is.. the Softimage you all have installed will continue to out perform Maya for years to come, don't let AD convince you that the emperor is finely clothed when in fact he's naked. ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/https://vimeo.com/user4174293http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd.If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone.Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 12:41:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: i.anima...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Sorry, odd auto spellcheck correction there...not that I can entirely disagree with it...but still want to stay professional and all. On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: Poignantly sad and true Bradley...although Autodicks broke the machine so that users couldn't switch back. 2015-02-21 12:31 GMT-06:00 Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com: -- -=T=- -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
[image: Inline image 1]
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Sorry, odd auto spellcheck correction there...not that I can entirely disagree with it...but still want to stay professional and all. On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: Poignantly sad and true Bradley...although Autodicks broke the machine so that users couldn't switch back. 2015-02-21 12:31 GMT-06:00 Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com: [image: Inline image 1] -- -=T=- -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Maya is consistent thoughconsistently awful and frustrating :P On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:11 AM, Jordi Bares Dominguez jordiba...@gmail.com wrote: Very true, consistency should be paramount. jb On 20 Feb 2015, at 19:39, Jason S jasonsta...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say both are happy(er) when things are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even microsteps make all the difference. On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Mirko Jankovic *Sent:* Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;) -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Poignantly sad and true Bradley...although Autodicks broke the machine so that users couldn't switch back. 2015-02-21 12:31 GMT-06:00 Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com: [image: Inline image 1] -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Very true, consistency should be paramount. jb On 20 Feb 2015, at 19:39, Jason S jasonsta...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say both are happy(er) when things are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even microsteps make all the difference. On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov mailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Great, now all we have to do is wait for the takeover by the evil Dominion corporation and wait a few years until it all falls apart... On Feb 20, 2015 7:16 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: Thats an awesome metaphor! Maya as a Cardasian. LOL Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [ softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Eric Turman [ i.anima...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 7:48 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem There...Are...Four...Lights! On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com mailto:luceri...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.govmailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
oohhh nice one!! :-D Rob \/-\/\/ On 20-2-2015 1:48, Eric Turman wrote: There...Are...Four...Lights! On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com mailto:luceri...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov mailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain -- -=T=- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4284/9143 - Release Date: 02/19/15
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
One thing Softimage got right was this basic order of operations and consistently apply it across the application. Back when I taught XSI, I always explained tool workflow in terms of master and slave, with the slave being the element that received the operator that does all the work. In the case of a constraint, it's the object controlled by the constraint. In the case of an envelope, it's the geometry being deformed. In the case of a cluster, it's the subcomponents on the geometry. For setting keyframes, select the parameter(s), then set your key. The simple rule was: 1 select the slave 2 choose your tool from the menu 3 pick the master(s). Made teaching (and learning) easy. One of the biggest problems with Maya, and 3DSMax to a degree, is the inconsistency of these basic principles. It's like every tool and workflow was designed and built in a vacuum separate from the rest of the application. It's painfully obvious whoever came up with many of the workflows doesn't do 3D work in production. It's like they were given a spec sheet and built a tool to satisfy the core requirements in principle but not in spirit. There's no harmony, and seemingly nobody at the wheel of UI driving those workflows (until now). Matt Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:20:21 -0500 From: Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Hello I know what you're saying, but the way I saw it, those scenarios were select the many, and then highlight the one. This allows you to select everything and then highlight the target for example the motion path or the parent, and the UI supports that paradigm with the green highlight of The One. Thinking in terms of source and target is not always unambiguous in UI. For example, if you have a menu that applies a LookAt constraint, what's the target, is it what the object will end up look at, or what the object the menu command acts upon. A technical individual might see things as picking all the inputs of an operator and then the output, and an artistic person might see things differently and read it like subject/verb/object.
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
This is very true. Microsteps matter, especially the ones that don’t register with the developers’ concept of how things should work. People on Maya’s dev team should perform this exercise: Create a small sphere on the far bottom left corner of the viewport. Create a small cube on the far top right corner of the viewport. Create a small circle curve on the far top left corner of the viewport. Create a small circle curve on the far bottom right corner of the viewport. Example 1: Look to the bottom left, select the sphere. Look to the top right and ctrl-select the cube. Point constrain the two. Where is the cube now? The last place you were looking? Or the first place? Exactly, it is in the first place you looked which is not where we intuitively expect it. We expect it to move to the last place we looked. Because that was the target. Target is secondary. Target is last in order. We have to stop, if just for an instant, and think about that prospect. Why did my target move to the source? Why did step 2 move to the location of step 1. That’s illogical. The sphere should have moved to the cube. I picked up the sphere first, I want it to move the sphere to the cube, but weirdly the sphere did not move, the second thing I picked up moved to the first. But I picked the sphere first. But this is Maya. So I guess its ok. Expected? Normal? Maybe? How does this work again? Undo everything. Select the cube first then the sphere then constrain. Now the sphere moves to the location of first selection and is constrained to the cube. I think. I know this is illogical, it feels awkward, but I have to accept it to move on. Who thought of this? Why does it do this? Did I do this correct? What does the outliner show me? Yeah it looks correct there, maybe, but just doesn’t feel right? Better play the timeline to make sure this behaves like I want it too? Yeah playback makes sense, oh well. But it seems like It went the other direction last week. That’s so weird. Yeah, about last week….. Example 2: Now deselect everything. Look to the top left, select the curve on the top left. Look to the bottom right and select the other curve on the bottom right. Execute Animate-Motion Path-Attach To Motion Path. Where are the curves. Right, they are both at the bottom right, the last place you looked. This doesn’t require a double take, doesn’t require the user to look back across the screen to where everything began, does not beg the question, why???. You are looking at the same place where action ended. This is logical. Next! Now I want to know. How many of you have experienced Example 1? -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jason S Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 2:39 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem I'd say both are happy(er) when things are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even microsteps make all the difference. On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.govmailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Because that was the target. Target is secondary. Target is last in order. Like dragging and dropping? Drag the folder to the file to move the file in the folder xD I guess what I meant by "good if consistant" "however they work" is only to a certain extent :] On 02/20/15 15:30, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] wrote: This is very true. Microsteps matter, especially the ones that don’t register with the developers’ concept of how things should work. People on Maya’s dev team should perform this exercise: Create a small sphere on the far bottom left corner of the viewport. Create a small cube on the far top right corner of the viewport. Create a small circle curve on the far top left corner of the viewport. Create a small circle curve on the far bottom right corner of the viewport. Example 1: Look to the bottom left, select the sphere. Look to the top right and ctrl-select the cube. Point constrain the two. Where is the cube now? The last place you were looking? Or the first place? Exactly, it is in the first place you looked which is not where we intuitively expect it. We expect it to move to the last place we looked. Because that was the target. Target is secondary. Target is last in order. We have to stop, if just for an instant, and think about that prospect. Why did my target move to the source? Why did step 2 move to the location of step 1. That’s illogical. The sphere should have moved to the cube. I picked up the sphere first, I want it to move the sphere to the cube, but weirdly the sphere did not move, the second thing I picked up moved to the first. But I picked the sphere first. But this is Maya. So I guess its ok. Expected? Normal? Maybe? How does this work again? Undo everything. Select the cube first then the sphere then constrain. Now the sphere moves to the location of first selection and is constrained to the cube. I think. I know this is illogical, it feels awkward, but I have to accept it to move on. Who thought of this? Why does it do this? Did I do this correct? What does the outliner show me? Yeah it looks correct there, maybe, but just doesn’t feel right? Better play the timeline to make sure this behaves like I want it too? Yeah playback makes sense, oh well. But it seems like It went the other direction last week. That’s so weird. Yeah, about last week….. Example 2: Now deselect everything. Look to the top left, select the curve on the top left. Look to the bottom right and select the other curve on the bottom right. Execute Animate-Motion Path-Attach To Motion Path. Where are the curves. Right, they are both at the bottom right, the last place you looked. This doesn’t require a double take, doesn’t require the user to look back across the screen to where everything began, does not beg the question, why???. You are looking at the same place where action ended. This is logical. Next! Now I want to know. How many of you have experienced Example 1? -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I am getting kind of used to the quirkiness of Maya and its selection modes for parenting and constraining. I can't say I like it as I still make mistakes as you outline when swtiching from parenting to constraints, to motion paths. I wish there were more of an obvious way to determine if maintain offset is being used, like the CNSComp option.. plain as day when you are using offsets. Adam On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: This is very true. Microsteps matter, especially the ones that don’t register with the developers’ concept of how things should work. People on Maya’s dev team should perform this exercise: Create a small sphere on the far bottom left corner of the viewport. Create a small cube on the far top right corner of the viewport. Create a small circle curve on the far top left corner of the viewport. Create a small circle curve on the far bottom right corner of the viewport. Example 1: Look to the bottom left, select the sphere. Look to the top right and ctrl-select the cube. Point constrain the two. Where is the cube now? The last place you were looking? Or the first place? Exactly, it is in the first place you looked which is not where we intuitively expect it. We expect it to move to the last place we looked. Because that was the target. Target is secondary. Target is last in order. We have to stop, if just for an instant, and think about that prospect. Why did my target move to the source? Why did step 2 move to the location of step 1. That’s illogical. The sphere should have moved to the cube. I picked up the sphere first, I want it to move the sphere to the cube, but weirdly the sphere did not move, the second thing I picked up moved to the first. But I picked the sphere first. But this is Maya. So I guess its ok. Expected? Normal? Maybe? How does this work again? Undo everything. Select the cube first then the sphere then constrain. Now the sphere moves to the location of first selection and is constrained to the cube. I think. I know this is illogical, it feels awkward, but I have to accept it to move on. Who thought of this? Why does it do this? Did I do this correct? What does the outliner show me? Yeah it looks correct there, maybe, but just doesn’t feel right? Better play the timeline to make sure this behaves like I want it too? Yeah playback makes sense, oh well. But it seems like It went the other direction last week. That’s so weird. Yeah, about last week….. Example 2: Now deselect everything. Look to the top left, select the curve on the top left. Look to the bottom right and select the other curve on the bottom right. Execute Animate-Motion Path-Attach To Motion Path. Where are the curves. Right, they are both at the bottom right, the last place you looked. This doesn’t require a double take, doesn’t require the user to look back across the screen to where everything began, does not beg the question, why???. You are looking at the same place where action ended. This is logical. Next! Now I want to know. How many of you have experienced Example 1? -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason S *Sent:* Friday, February 20, 2015 2:39 PM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem I'd say both are happy(er) when things are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even microsteps make all the difference. On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Mirko Jankovic *Sent:* Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Hello I know what you're saying, but the way I saw it, those scenarios were select the many, and then highlight the one. This allows you to select everything and then highlight the target for example the motion path or the parent, and the UI supports that paradigm with the green highlight of The One. Thinking in terms of source and target is not always unambiguous in UI. For example, if you have a menu that applies a LookAt constraint, what's the target, is it what the object will end up look at, or what the object the menu command acts upon. A technical individual might see things as picking all the inputs of an operator and then the output, and an artistic person might see things differently and read it like subject/verb/object. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: I think you've missed my point. Some of Maya's selection context is done in a normal or intuitive manner. Others are not. The point is that Maya's selection contexts are all over the place and the fact that some processes bear out multiple contexts only confuses matters. In the case of parenting, Maya gets the natural selection order right with the target being last. Its the majority of other processes that are unintuitive and inconsistent with this one. I fail to understand how having to read the status line everytime i parent, constrain, or path animate something might be intuitive. I've been using using Maya since 98. I know where to get the status line information. I've written MEL scripts that post status line instructions. Thats not the point. The point is that the selection methodology in Maya is inconsistent, incongruent, and unintuitive. As if though each process was written by a different person at a different time and nobody knew what the other person was doing. This incongruency demonstrates that Maya completely ignores how and why we as users, as humans, think when it comes directionality of source - target and how percieve this concept. This should be a simple intuitive process that the user can instantly extrapolate without having to read the manual every time you switch from parenting to constraints or animating. This is selection methodology. We do this one task, select items, hundreds of times a day. And Maya has no uniform selection paradigm. In fact Attach to Motion Path can even mislead the user into adopting bad behavior by allowing the user to think the selection order is one way until you go to motion path one curve on another and then it can be opposite the way someone has earned to attach objects to a curve. This is illogical. The original poster has a valid and salient point. And its not enough that all contexts are the same. They could all be the same and still be unintuitive because they could be contradictory to the way we think about selection naturally. Selection has to be designed to the way we as humans think and not just a procedure for the sake of being a procedure. From: Luc-Eric Rousseau [luceri...@gmail.com] On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Yes. Of course different people will have different logic. One would hope that the UI team for any product would: 1. identify *which* people are the primary user base 2. create a *consistent* set of design and interaction standards that address the needs of the primary user base best 3. explain the logic behind the choice of standards in the product documentation 4. maintain consistency in the application of those standards. AD has not done a very good job of this. Nor, to be fair, has any software manufacturer in our market space (Adobe, I'm looking at you...). But Maya is currently among the worst offenders in the AD arsenal.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
It really looks like more focus is given in flashy marketing things that can be pushed in PR then to what is really important, and UI is main way of using software and it is definitely not researched studied and then applied as much as it should be. So many time and hair would be lost with good UI experience. Imagine pilot in plane with console that has nothing to do with logic, where one flaps is above his head, another flaps is in other side of the room and the rest follows... Not many planes would even take of with design like that :) On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Ed Manning etmth...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Of course different people will have different logic. One would hope that the UI team for any product would: 1. identify *which* people are the primary user base 2. create a *consistent* set of design and interaction standards that address the needs of the primary user base best 3. explain the logic behind the choice of standards in the product documentation 4. maintain consistency in the application of those standards. AD has not done a very good job of this. Nor, to be fair, has any software manufacturer in our market space (Adobe, I'm looking at you...). But Maya is currently among the worst offenders in the AD arsenal.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
On 02/20/15 13:24, Mirko Jankovic wrote: ... where one flaps is above his head, another flaps is in other side of the room ... Hahaha xD On 02/20/15 13:24, Mirko Jankovic wrote: It really looks like more focus is given in flashy marketing things that can be pushed in PR then to what is really important, and UI is main way of using software and it is definitely not researched studied and then applied as much as it should be. So many time and hair would be lost with good UI experience. Imagine pilot in plane with console that has nothing to do with logic, where one flaps is above his head, another flaps is in other side of the room and the rest follows... Not many planes would even take of with design like that :) On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Ed Manning etmth...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Of course different people will have different logic. One would hope that the UI team for any product would: identify *which* people are the primary user base create a *consistent* set of design and interaction standards that address the needs of the primary user base best explain the logic behind the choice of standards in the product documentation maintain consistency in the application of those standards. AD has not done a very good job of this. Nor, to be fair, has any software manufacturer in our market space (Adobe, I'm looking at you...). But Maya is currently among the worst offenders in the AD arsenal.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
With that said wouldn't proper way of settings things up be to give it and test on number of people that will actually be the ones using tool and see what they say :) If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;) On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com wrote: Hello I know what you're saying, but the way I saw it, those scenarios were select the many, and then highlight the one. This allows you to select everything and then highlight the target for example the motion path or the parent, and the UI supports that paradigm with the green highlight of The One. Thinking in terms of source and target is not always unambiguous in UI. For example, if you have a menu that applies a LookAt constraint, what's the target, is it what the object will end up look at, or what the object the menu command acts upon. A technical individual might see things as picking all the inputs of an operator and then the output, and an artistic person might see things differently and read it like subject/verb/object. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: I think you've missed my point. Some of Maya's selection context is done in a normal or intuitive manner. Others are not. The point is that Maya's selection contexts are all over the place and the fact that some processes bear out multiple contexts only confuses matters. In the case of parenting, Maya gets the natural selection order right with the target being last. Its the majority of other processes that are unintuitive and inconsistent with this one. I fail to understand how having to read the status line everytime i parent, constrain, or path animate something might be intuitive. I've been using using Maya since 98. I know where to get the status line information. I've written MEL scripts that post status line instructions. Thats not the point. The point is that the selection methodology in Maya is inconsistent, incongruent, and unintuitive. As if though each process was written by a different person at a different time and nobody knew what the other person was doing. This incongruency demonstrates that Maya completely ignores how and why we as users, as humans, think when it comes directionality of source - target and how percieve this concept. This should be a simple intuitive process that the user can instantly extrapolate without having to read the manual every time you switch from parenting to constraints or animating. This is selection methodology. We do this one task, select items, hundreds of times a day. And Maya has no uniform selection paradigm. In fact Attach to Motion Path can even mislead the user into adopting bad behavior by allowing the user to think the selection order is one way until you go to motion path one curve on another and then it can be opposite the way someone has earned to attach objects to a curve. This is illogical. The original poster has a valid and salient point. And its not enough that all contexts are the same. They could all be the same and still be unintuitive because they could be contradictory to the way we think about selection naturally. Selection has to be designed to the way we as humans think and not just a procedure for the sake of being a procedure. From: Luc-Eric Rousseau [luceri...@gmail.com] On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
In its simplest form this is what makes the most sense Source - Target The constrained object-That which constrains Child-Parent From a human perspective the concept of source-target is clearly unambiguous. Arrow-target Baseball-catchers mitt Basketball-hoop Bucket of water-fire Hammer-nail Machine gun-warplane Train-Rail Brick-building Hanger-closet rod Spacecraft-Moon We first grab(select) or handle something and then we articulate it toward, into, or on the target. This is not a concept of hierarchy. This is a concept of directional procedure for selection order. This is about a concept of human action extrapolating to human machine interaction. Verb is most appropriate. People confuse the concept of hierarchy with selection. A parent is a form of constrain. Both a constraining object, a parent, a rail have a level of hierarchy and ownership over its children or constrained objects. Within hierarchy the parent precedes the child. But in action of constructing the hierarchy we, as humans, we most often articulate the subordinate toward the parent. We must first gather the children in order to construct the target. The bricks are the source and target is the building. In construction procedure the building does not precede the bricks. We find bricks, then articulate them until a building, the target thus takes shape. Target is secondary in action. Even technical people understand this. Especially technical people. You have to create the spaceship before you can go to the moon. You don't bring the moon to the spaceship. That is illogical. If you could do that the target would be the spaceship and there would be no point in the endeavor because the moon would already be in your possession. As a goal the Moon is primary. As an action the Moon is secondary. You have to make and articulate the spaceship first in order to reach your goal. Developers frequently conflate goal with target. They are not the same. Are there examples where target might precede the source. A few. One could say that the bucket precedes the water but that would ignore the context by ignoring the shift in targets through procedure. For example: Bucket-water Bucket of water-fire One can't easily pick up molecules of water one at a time and place in the bucket the way you can efficiently pick up apples and place in the bucket. Then you would select what might be considered the target first (the bucket) and use this target to collect the source, but it is defined as source by the intent of the water's purpose. The bucket is in fact the source and water the target, before the water becomes the source and the fire the target. Setting target before source is then the exception, not the rule. In terms of procedure the item doing the looking is source, the looked at item is target. Anyone who has ever picked up a firearm, bow and arrow, ball and bat, or operated a battleship machine gun tracking an aircraft will tell you that. This is how we as humans think. Extrapolating to that is intuitive. Extrapolating in the inverse, while occasionally practical, is less frequently intuitive in terms of procedure. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage- boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 12:20 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Hello I know what you're saying, but the way I saw it, those scenarios were select the many, and then highlight the one. This allows you to select everything and then highlight the target for example the motion path or the parent, and the UI supports that paradigm with the green highlight of The One. Thinking in terms of source and target is not always unambiguous in UI. For example, if you have a menu that applies a LookAt constraint, what's the target, is it what the object will end up look at, or what the object the menu command acts upon. A technical individual might see things as picking all the inputs of an operator and then the output, and an artistic person might see things differently and read it like subject/verb/object. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: I think you've missed my point. Some of Maya's selection context is done in a normal or intuitive manner. Others are not. The point is that Maya's selection contexts are all over the place and the fact that some processes bear out multiple contexts only confuses matters. In the case of parenting, Maya gets the natural selection order right
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
to that point.if i hear just one more Maya guy say that oh, that's just
something we script, for an obvious feature.i may blow a gasket
(yes, i know, there's always good things about scripting, and scripting is
valuable for customizing function.but scripting shouldn't be an excuse for
laziness on the part of the software engineer)
On Friday, February 20, 2015 1:43 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G.
(LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote:
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really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From:
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If
programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists
needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Mirko Jankovic *Sent:* Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Programmers can be artists too. Hell... you could say programming is an art :) Didn't AD's Corey Mogk write an article suggesting that all parts of the company should be involved in designing the UX experience? I think he included the marketing department in that. Can't find the link unfortunately, but I remember thinking at the time that that was a bad road to go down. A On 20 February 2015 at 19:08 Rob Chapman tekano@gmail.com wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov mailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com ] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I'd say both are happy(er) when things
are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to
eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even
microsteps make all the difference.
On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote:
So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who
is the more human, the artist or the programmer
On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, "Ponthieux, Joseph
G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES]" j.ponthi...@nasa.gov
wrote:
That
really is the point, isn’t it?
--
Joey
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're
cleverand that's the problem
If programmer making something
for artists shouldn't that follow what artists
needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Ice and other things in soft lets you leap over entire fleights of stairs at a time. For quite few things but only when experiencing pretty-much most other things do you notice how many steps you were skipping. On 02/20/15 14:39, Jason S wrote: I'd say both are happy(er) when things are consistent and predictable (however they work), with care to eliminate as many steps as possible, because sometimes even microsteps make all the difference. On 02/20/15 14:08, Rob Chapman wrote: So now we get to a crux of an issue of ui design, who is the more human, the artist or the programmer On 20 Feb 2015 18:43, "Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES]" j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: That really is the point, isn’t it? -- Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem If programmer making something for artists shouldn't that follow what artists needs not what programmer feels it should be ;)
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
A more thorough explanation than I originally provided just to be clear……. If you have a primitive and a curve, and are attempting to Attach To Motion Path, Maya doesn’t care about selection order, the object will always be attached to path regardless order of selection. If you have two curves selected, and attempt to Attach To Motion Path, the first selected curve will always attach (constrain) to the second curve. If you have two objects selected, either two objects, object and curve, or even two curves, and attempt to point constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first. (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second Resistance is futile… (BTW, a note about Attach to Motion Path. This is essentially a “MotionPath constraint” but it is not directly presented as a constrain. You can delete the uValue node attached to a MotionPath node and you get the functional equivalent to a curve constrain in Soft allowing the user to arbitrarily constrain the object to any place on the curve without having to keyframe. You can create tank treads by setting additive expressions from one tread MotionPath uvalue to another once the uValue curve nodes have been deleted and all the treads can then be driven by only one tread element. Because it’s not presented as a curve constraint the way SI’s curve constrain is, it is not immediately obvious that this type of constrain is available to you.) -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 11:37 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Maya selection order has always been like this, all over the app. But it’s even more confusing than you may already be aware. What if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and attach to motion path so the sphere constrains to the curve. But, if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and constrain point the curve constrains to the sphere? What the…! Why isn’t the context the same? Why isn’t the directionality the same? Why do I have to spend time thinking about this before I do each procedure? Is it source - target, is it target - source, or is target- …..? Huh….what’d you say?…. What?! I can do what! Oh geez! no……, You’re telling me that the attach to motion path has no context? You can select either one first and it doesn’t care? I’ve been deceived into thinking directional context mattered for over a decade because it makes more sense to select the object first and the path second? You know, source - target, start - end, throw - catch, 1-2? But the context for constrain is rigid you say? The context for attach to motion path isn’t rigid? Really? And constraints work by the throw doing the catching? 2 is first and 1 is second? Source receives and target sends? These contradicting behaviors have been there for so long I doubt anyone can tell you why they are this way. Add to that the fact that Maya is largely used in teams that are task centric, I’d argue its possible that a lot of people who use Maya have hardly noticed what the generalist who is using every part of the app will notice. For the record I complained to AW mightily, about many of these inconsistencies you are observing, back in the late 90s. I always got the sense they were so deeply invested in the meat and bones of the algorithm or giving the core interior of the application more functionality that they just did not have interface issues on their radar. The Humanize Maya folks have a significant amount of work ahead of them…. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mario Reitbauer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:23 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything.dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. -- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed -- Laurence Dodd Porkpie Animation E: laure...@porkpie.tv W: www.porkpie.tv M: 07570 702 576 T: 01273 278 382
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv...@gmail.com: Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. -- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed -- Laurence Dodd Porkpie Animation E: laure...@porkpie.tv W: www.porkpie.tv M: 07570 702 576 T: 01273 278 382
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I had a 'more straigtward learning process with Blender than Maya. That being said I only had it for 2 days... Nuff said... El feb 19, 2015 8:24 a.m., Mario Reitbauer cont...@marioreitbauer.at escribió: Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv...@gmail.com: Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. -- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed -- Laurence Dodd Porkpie Animation E: laure...@porkpie.tv W: www.porkpie.tv M: 07570 702 576 T: 01273 278 382
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com mailto:hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com mailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com mailto:witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com mailto:jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com mailto:ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed -- Laurence Dodd Porkpie Animation E: laure...@porkpie.tv mailto:laure...@porkpie.tv W: www.porkpie.tv http://www.porkpie.tv M: 07570 702 576 T: 01273 278 382
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
While I think some folks would be satisfied with this I’m not sure it can fix the larger problem. Some people will struggle with a pick session in massively huge scenes. These selection orders, parenting, constraining, attaching to path, etc, should all have a setting allowing user preference for source-target direction. This needs to be seriously thought through and applied as a method analogous to a human understanding of natural orders of action precedence within everyday life. When we hang something onto something else, throw a basketball in a hoop, even something as massive as place a train on a rail, most often we select the article first and then articulate it toward the object it will be constrained by. Not the other way around. We don’t select the basketball hoop first and move it to the ball. We don’t select the rail and place it under the train. We don’t take the closet rod and move it under the hanger’s hook. These are illogical and unintuitive procedures. If we are picking up fruit or nuts, we pick the article up off the ground or pull it from the tree before we put it in the bag that will become it’s parent. If we throw a baseball to a catcher, we have to pick up the ball first, or someone throws it to us, regardless we have to take possession of the baseball before we can do anything with it. It’s unintuitive/illogical to think that we should take possession of the basketball hoop before putting the basketball in it. This is how we as humans think. I specifically used the fruit/nuts gathering example to point out that we have been behaving in this way for millennia. 3D software should replicate this behavior wherever possible. We intuitively want to select the object then attach it to the path. Select the child then the parent. Select the object, then the thing it is constrained to. The object selected first and the path selected last. We pick up the arrow, put it in the bow, pull the bow string, find the target, aim, then we let it go so that it can hit the target. This is a normal human understanding of directionality of source and target and it repeats itself over and over in our actions. This concept of source and target is seriously ingrained in our being and thought. Creating software paradigms that operate contrary and contradictory to these established human actions only serves to slow down the process and utilization of the software because most people have to destabilize, rethink, and learn contradictory behaviors to what is instinctively understood as intuitive, if not normal. This needs to be fixed. Permanently. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mario Reitbauer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:33 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Well easy solution for this one at least ;) For the old maya folk keep everything like it is. For everyone who don't want to get brain fucked do it like this: If nothing is selected and you call the parent constraint as example a pick session starts with a tooltip what to select. Problem solved. Old maya guys are happy, and new maya users don't need to brain fart. 2015-02-19 18:09 GMT+01:00 Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.commailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com: a big error in poster. it is at end of life but not at end of USEFUL life :) and while ppl spills tears and going bold with tearing up their hair working in maya.. some of lucky ones are swimming in beautiful waters of SI... shark here and thre is nothing compared to piranha and other monster infested waters of maya. no thank you! :) On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.commailto:i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: http://i.imgur.com/eOh7l6i.jpg [http://i.imgur.com/eOh7l6i.jpg] On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.govmailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: Maya selection order has always been like this, all over the app. But it’s even more confusing than you may already be aware. What if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and attach to motion path so the sphere constrains to the curve. But, if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and constrain point the curve constrains to the sphere? What the…! Why isn’t the context the same? Why isn’t the directionality the same? Why do I have to spend time thinking about this before I do each procedure? Is it source - target, is it target - source, or is target- …..? Huh….what’d you say?…. What?! I can do what! Oh geez! no……, You’re telling me that the attach to motion path has no context? You can select either one first and it doesn’t care? I’ve been deceived into thinking directional
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Maya is the veil that covers our real nature and the real nature of the world around us. Maya is fundamentally inscrutable: we don’t know why it exists and we don’t know when it began. What we do know is that, like any form of ignorance, maya ceases to exist at the dawn of knowledge, the knowledge of our own divine nature. (The Concept of Maya - http://waa.ai/4rcY) -- Leendert A. Hartog AKA Hirazi Blue Administrator NOT the owner of si-community.com
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Yup, Maya is insanity On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Leendert A. Hartog hirazib...@live.nl wrote: Maya is the veil that covers our real nature and the real nature of the world around us. Maya is fundamentally inscrutable: we don’t know why it exists and we don’t know when it began. What we do know is that, like any form of ignorance, maya ceases to exist at the dawn of knowledge, the knowledge of our own divine nature. (The Concept of Maya - http://waa.ai/4rcY) -- Leendert A. Hartog AKA Hirazi Blue Administrator NOT the owner of si-community.com -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
so at the end, this means: A softimage-user switching to Maya thinks he is clever ... and thats the problem. Walter Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com hat am 19. Februar 2015 um 23:13 geschrieben: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
It's true, Maya doesn't respond to cleverness. It's like trying to be sharply sarcastic with a slow witted, mean spirited six year old, he will just stare at you and kick you in the nuts. When I have to use Maya from the UI end of things I just assume I am confronting a malicious, starved and retarded puma that wishes me ill, and behave accordingly. I also give all skinning tasks to other people. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 9:32 AM, w...@fiftyeight.com w...@fiftyeight.com wrote: so at the end, this means: A softimage-user switching to Maya thinks he is clever ... and thats the problem. Walter
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I think you've missed my point. Some of Maya's selection context is done in a normal or intuitive manner. Others are not. The point is that Maya's selection contexts are all over the place and the fact that some processes bear out multiple contexts only confuses matters. In the case of parenting, Maya gets the natural selection order right with the target being last. Its the majority of other processes that are unintuitive and inconsistent with this one. I fail to understand how having to read the status line everytime i parent, constrain, or path animate something might be intuitive. I've been using using Maya since 98. I know where to get the status line information. I've written MEL scripts that post status line instructions. Thats not the point. The point is that the selection methodology in Maya is inconsistent, incongruent, and unintuitive. As if though each process was written by a different person at a different time and nobody knew what the other person was doing. This incongruency demonstrates that Maya completely ignores how and why we as users, as humans, think when it comes directionality of source - target and how percieve this concept. This should be a simple intuitive process that the user can instantly extrapolate without having to read the manual every time you switch from parenting to constraints or animating. This is selection methodology. We do this one task, select items, hundreds of times a day. And Maya has no uniform selection paradigm. In fact Attach to Motion Path can even mislead the user into adopting bad behavior by allowing the user to think the selection order is one way until you go to motion path one curve on another and then it can be opposite the way someone has earned to attach objects to a curve. This is illogical. The original poster has a valid and salient point. And its not enough that all contexts are the same. They could all be the same and still be unintuitive because they could be contradictory to the way we think about selection naturally. Selection has to be designed to the way we as humans think and not just a procedure for the sake of being a procedure. Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Luc-Eric Rousseau [luceri...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 5:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Thats an awesome metaphor! Maya as a Cardasian. LOL Joey From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Eric Turman [i.anima...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 7:48 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem There...Are...Four...Lights! On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.commailto:luceri...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.govmailto:j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain -- -=T=-
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I can’t help but wonder what folks would think if the Multi-lister still existed in Maya….. -- Joey Ponthieux LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES) MYMIC Technical Services NASA Langley Research Center __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ed Harriss Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:55 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Maya selection order has always been like this, all over the app. But it’s even more confusing than you may already be aware. What if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and attach to motion path so the sphere constrains to the curve. But, if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and constrain point the curve constrains to the sphere? What the…! Why isn’t the context the same? Why isn’t the directionality the same? Why do I have to spend time thinking about this before I do each procedure? Is it source - target, is it target - source, or is target- …..? Huh….what’d you say?…. What?! I can do what! Oh geez! no……, You’re telling me that the attach to motion path has no context? You can select either one first and it doesn’t care? I’ve been deceived into thinking directional context mattered for over a decade because it makes more sense to select the object first and the path second? You know, source - target, start - end, throw - catch, 1-2? But the context for constrain is rigid you say? The context for attach to motion path isn’t rigid? Really? And constraints work by the throw doing the catching? 2 is first and 1 is second? Source receives and target sends? These contradicting behaviors have been there for so long I doubt anyone can tell you why they are this way. Add to that the fact that Maya is largely used in teams that are task centric, I’d argue its possible that a lot of people who use Maya have hardly noticed what the generalist who is using every part of the app will notice. For the record I complained to AW mightily, about many of these inconsistencies you are observing, back in the late 90s. I always got the sense they were so deeply invested in the meat and bones of the algorithm or giving the core interior of the application more functionality that they just did not have interface issues on their radar. The Humanize Maya folks have a significant amount of work ahead of them…. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mario Reitbauer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:23 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv...@gmail.commailto:nagv...@gmail.com: Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.commailto:hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.commailto:witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.commailto:jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.commailto:ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed -- Laurence Dodd Porkpie Animation E: laure...@porkpie.tvmailto:laure...@porkpie.tv W: www.porkpie.tvhttp://www.porkpie.tv M
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
a big error in poster. it is at end of life but not at end of USEFUL life :) and while ppl spills tears and going bold with tearing up their hair working in maya.. some of lucky ones are swimming in beautiful waters of SI... shark here and thre is nothing compared to piranha and other monster infested waters of maya. no thank you! :) On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: http://i.imgur.com/eOh7l6i.jpg On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: Maya selection order has always been like this, all over the app. But it’s even more confusing than you may already be aware. What if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and attach to motion path so the sphere constrains to the curve. But, if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and constrain point the curve constrains to the sphere? What the…! Why isn’t the context the same? Why isn’t the directionality the same? Why do I have to spend time thinking about this before I do each procedure? Is it source - target, is it target - source, or is target- …..? Huh….what’d you say?…. What?! I can do what! Oh geez! no……, You’re telling me that the attach to motion path has no context? You can select either one first and it doesn’t care? I’ve been deceived into thinking directional context mattered for over a decade because it makes more sense to select the object first and the path second? You know, source - target, start - end, throw - catch, 1-2? But the context for constrain is rigid you say? The context for attach to motion path isn’t rigid? Really? And constraints work by the throw doing the catching? 2 is first and 1 is second? Source receives and target sends? These contradicting behaviors have been there for so long I doubt anyone can tell you why they are this way. Add to that the fact that Maya is largely used in teams that are task centric, I’d argue its possible that a lot of people who use Maya have hardly noticed what the generalist who is using every part of the app will notice. For the record I complained to AW mightily, about many of these inconsistencies you are observing, back in the late 90s. I always got the sense they were so deeply invested in the meat and bones of the algorithm or giving the core interior of the application more functionality that they just did not have interface issues on their radar. The Humanize Maya folks have a significant amount of work ahead of them…. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Mario Reitbauer *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:23 AM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv...@gmail.com: Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. -- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Well easy solution for this one at least ;) For the old maya folk keep everything like it is. For everyone who don't want to get brain fucked do it like this: If nothing is selected and you call the parent constraint as example a pick session starts with a tooltip what to select. Problem solved. Old maya guys are happy, and new maya users don't need to brain fart. 2015-02-19 18:09 GMT+01:00 Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com: a big error in poster. it is at end of life but not at end of USEFUL life :) and while ppl spills tears and going bold with tearing up their hair working in maya.. some of lucky ones are swimming in beautiful waters of SI... shark here and thre is nothing compared to piranha and other monster infested waters of maya. no thank you! :) On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: http://i.imgur.com/eOh7l6i.jpg On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: Maya selection order has always been like this, all over the app. But it’s even more confusing than you may already be aware. What if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and attach to motion path so the sphere constrains to the curve. But, if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and constrain point the curve constrains to the sphere? What the…! Why isn’t the context the same? Why isn’t the directionality the same? Why do I have to spend time thinking about this before I do each procedure? Is it source - target, is it target - source, or is target- …..? Huh….what’d you say?…. What?! I can do what! Oh geez! no……, You’re telling me that the attach to motion path has no context? You can select either one first and it doesn’t care? I’ve been deceived into thinking directional context mattered for over a decade because it makes more sense to select the object first and the path second? You know, source - target, start - end, throw - catch, 1-2? But the context for constrain is rigid you say? The context for attach to motion path isn’t rigid? Really? And constraints work by the throw doing the catching? 2 is first and 1 is second? Source receives and target sends? These contradicting behaviors have been there for so long I doubt anyone can tell you why they are this way. Add to that the fact that Maya is largely used in teams that are task centric, I’d argue its possible that a lot of people who use Maya have hardly noticed what the generalist who is using every part of the app will notice. For the record I complained to AW mightily, about many of these inconsistencies you are observing, back in the late 90s. I always got the sense they were so deeply invested in the meat and bones of the algorithm or giving the core interior of the application more functionality that they just did not have interface issues on their radar. The Humanize Maya folks have a significant amount of work ahead of them…. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Mario Reitbauer *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:23 AM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv...@gmail.com: Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. -- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
http://i.imgur.com/eOh7l6i.jpg On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: Maya selection order has always been like this, all over the app. But it’s even more confusing than you may already be aware. What if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and attach to motion path so the sphere constrains to the curve. But, if I select a sphere, then a curve second, and constrain point the curve constrains to the sphere? What the…! Why isn’t the context the same? Why isn’t the directionality the same? Why do I have to spend time thinking about this before I do each procedure? Is it source - target, is it target - source, or is target- …..? Huh….what’d you say?…. What?! I can do what! Oh geez! no……, You’re telling me that the attach to motion path has no context? You can select either one first and it doesn’t care? I’ve been deceived into thinking directional context mattered for over a decade because it makes more sense to select the object first and the path second? You know, source - target, start - end, throw - catch, 1-2? But the context for constrain is rigid you say? The context for attach to motion path isn’t rigid? Really? And constraints work by the throw doing the catching? 2 is first and 1 is second? Source receives and target sends? These contradicting behaviors have been there for so long I doubt anyone can tell you why they are this way. Add to that the fact that Maya is largely used in teams that are task centric, I’d argue its possible that a lot of people who use Maya have hardly noticed what the generalist who is using every part of the app will notice. For the record I complained to AW mightily, about many of these inconsistencies you are observing, back in the late 90s. I always got the sense they were so deeply invested in the meat and bones of the algorithm or giving the core interior of the application more functionality that they just did not have interface issues on their radar. The Humanize Maya folks have a significant amount of work ahead of them…. -- Joey Ponthieux __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Mario Reitbauer *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:23 AM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Cause we are bitching about maya. Could a maya dev explain me why I have to select child and then parent if I want to parent something but I have to select parent and then child if I want to use a parent constraint. Makes my brain sd. 2015-02-19 14:10 GMT+01:00 Gerbrand Nel nagv...@gmail.com: Hahahah bitches, my maya hell is over tomorrow.untill further notice G On 19/02/2015 13:26, Laurence Dodd wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. I'm in exactly the same position Andi, two weeks for me, it's like like Christmas is around the corner On 19 February 2015 at 10:24, Andi Farhall hack...@outlook.com wrote: I can feel my mental health being eroded by having to use maya. Selecting things is making me want punch things. Thankfully this isn't permanent and i can go back to normality sometime next week. and breath. -- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:50:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem From: raffsxsil...@googlemail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Didn't Autodesk ACTUALLY buy something virology or pharmacology related recently? Vague memories of some scary piece of news. On 19 Feb 2015 12:12, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed -- *Laurence Dodd* *Porkpie Animation* E: laure...@porkpie.tv
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
There...Are...Four...Lights! On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] j.ponthi...@nasa.gov wrote: (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent constrain, the second selected object will constrain to the first (as already noted by another poster) If you have two primitives selected, and attempt to parent, the first selected object will become child of the second isn't this because you'd select all the children you want to parent, and then finish with the single parent, or select all the object you want to parent-constraint to, and then finish the single target? The single object is always last and highlighted in green vs other ones in white. btw, it's written on the help line at the bottom of the screen what you need to select to run the menu command: Parent: Parent the selected object(s) to the last selected object Contraint-Parent: Select one or more target followed by the object to constrain -- -=T=-
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names,
but for virtually everything.dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet
sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss
ed.harr...@sas.com wrote:
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{}#yiv3992397248 You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault.
(Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys!
Ed
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Want some silly names...try out max...why subdivide when you cab turbosmooth!!! On Feb 17, 2015 1:23 PM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@hybride.com wrote: Why isn't Render Tree good? It's a tree of nodes for rendering... Same with ICE Tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:16 PM, Rob Wuijster wrote: Should have been 'Render Schematic View ;-P Rob \/-\/\/ On 17-2-2015 19:10, Simon Reeves wrote: render tree isn't the best! Simon Reeves London, UK *si...@simonreeves.com si...@simonreeves.com* *www.simonreeves.com http://www.simonreeves.com* *www.analogstudio.co.uk http://www.analogstudio.co.uk*
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I hear that tubosmooth is better than superchargersmooth but not as good as hypersmooth, megasmooth, ultrasmooth, or ribbed-for-her-pleasure-smooth :P On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Chris Johnson chr...@topixfx.com wrote: Want some silly names...try out max...why subdivide when you cab turbosmooth!!! -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Silly conversations are so much better with Brad in them :) Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry John, you didn't hear. I fixed Ebola a while ago. However, Autodesk bought out the technology and has discontinued it in favor of only supporting their Hanta virus cure. No worries, if you do contract Ebola, you can just use the Hanta treatment. Granted, it doesn't effectively treat Ebola, but a virus is a virus. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2015, at 2:01 PM, john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com wrote: i feel absolutely comfortable blaming Brad.not just for the cool names, but for virtually everything. dangit Brad.why haven't you fixed Ebola yet sheeesh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:54 PM, Ed Harriss ed.harr...@sas.com wrote: You know all those “cool” names? Well, it’s Brad’s fault. (Isn’t it always?) Long live Outliner Cheese and Directed Acyclic Monkeys! Ed
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Nope, did not forget about Ultimapper, I used it the other week and yes it is a bit of a goofy name. Soft has a handful of goofy names...Direct *X* *S*oft*I*mage being one of them, but more often than not the names in Soft are more straight forward and reasonable than its surviving counterparts. -- -=T=-
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Meh, I prefer my 'Envelopes'... skinning can get confused with UV Mapping. Bind on the other hand... I don't mind that too much. On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Greg Punchatz g...@janimation.com wrote: and in Maya's defense Soft got a lot of names goofy too... Envelopes should be called skinning Thats about the nicest thing I have to say about maya at this point ;)
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
One vote for hypercheese and shadermonkey You know, for the next iteration.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
On 02/17/15 13:21, Francois Lord wrote: "Shader Designer Plus 2000" Lol xD
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
heh, shadermonkey reminds me of ATI's rendermonkey http://developer.amd.com/tools-and-sdks/archive/legacy-cpu-gpu-tools/rendermonkey-toolsuite/ On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: One vote for hypercheese and shadermonkey You know, for the next iteration.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Hey John, Your DAG assessment may be a bit too simplified. :P For your Group comment If you think the cleverness is so abusive, then why did Softimage put in the Transform Group object which is exactly like a Maya group? It's a transform with no icon. Graph Editor Well like in Softimage you can edit more than just fcurves for animation. You can edit fcurves that are driving things WHEN they are animated. Lastly, try talking to any long time Maya user and suggest a name change to anything in Maya. After a full 2-3 days of arguing through an email thread, you'll hopefully waive the white flag and continue on with your life. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 11:16 AM, john clausing wrote: DAG or directed acyclic graph.what they mean is object hierarchy Hypershade..what they mean is material editor Hypergraph..what they mean is schematic Graph Editor.what they mean is animation editor Visorstill no idea Group.what they mean is null sorta, but it's called null in the outliner even though they call it group...waitwhat? Set.what they mean is group c'monaren't we past calling things nerdy names cause they're cool? thus endeth my rantsorry. john
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
and in Maya's defense Soft got a lot of names goofy too... Envelopes should be called skinning Thats about the nicest thing I have to say about maya at this point ;) On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Robert Cole rob...@texturelighting.com wrote: Whoa! The Hypershade.. it s'posed to be a Render Tree, not as good, or as functional, and the name sounded really cool in school... still not sure what's so hyper about it.. 'cept it gets me Hyper that's for sure. -R On 2/17/2015 11:16 AM, john clausing wrote: DAG or directed acyclic graph.what they mean is object hierarchy Hypershade..what they mean is material editor Hypergraph..what they mean is schematic Graph Editor.what they mean is animation editor Visorstill no idea Group.what they mean is null sorta, but it's called null in the outliner even though they call it group...waitwhat? Set.what they mean is group c'monaren't we past calling things nerdy names cause they're cool? thus endeth my rantsorry. john
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Thinking about trees and graphs and editors and monkeys and cheese: Isn't a graph actually what we are calling the FCurve Editor? It should have been called Animation Graph Editor and a RenderTree/Shader Graph is actually more a Shader Layout Editor because it displays no graph at all... So its more a tree (rotated) than a graph. lol sven -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 8:20 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com; r...@casema.nl Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem I think some things need to be named so they don't have an implicit complexity to it. Graph I find has more complexity to it than Tree. And when you look at it (you know, head rotated 90 degrees) it does look like a tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:45 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Technically, it’s not a tree. It’s a graph. In fact, it’s directed and acyclic. gray
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
you can argue that tree might be incorrect, that it should be skin rather than envelope..but i get all of those in any case. but..they actually use HYPER in several things, and they actually used Directed Acyclic Graph... i mean C'MON! :) On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 2:20 PM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@hybride.com wrote: I think some things need to be named so they don't have an implicit complexity to it. Graph I find has more complexity to it than Tree. And when you look at it (you know, head rotated 90 degrees) it does look like a tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:45 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Technically, it’s not a tree. It’s a graph. In fact, it’s directed and acyclic. gray
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I'm not clear on how the Render Tree in XSI got to be called that, but I think there was a renderman-related product Shader Tree or ShadeTree that was hot at that time. We have often discussed internally that Render Tree was not a good name, you'd expect that to control the whole render process, not just edit one shader, Hypergraph/HyperShade might have called that for the same reason that links in the web browser are called Hyperlinks: was trendy in the 1990s. But an hypergraph is also an actual math term, a graph where any edge can connect anywhere.
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Indeed... :D Next iteration it will go from Hyper to Ludicrous, maybe then into Plaid. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 2:25 PM, john clausing wrote: you can argue that tree might be incorrect, that it should be skin rather than envelope..but i get all of those in any case. but..they actually use HYPER in several things, and they actually used Directed Acyclic Graph... i mean C'MON! :)
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Technically, it’s not a tree. It’s a graph. In fact, it’s directed and acyclic. gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:23 PM To: r...@casema.nl; softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Why isn't Render Tree good? It's a tree of nodes for rendering... Same with ICE Tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:16 PM, Rob Wuijster wrote: Should have been 'Render Schematic View ;-P Rob \/-\/\/ On 17-2-2015 19:10, Simon Reeves wrote: render tree isn't the best! Simon Reeves London, UK si...@simonreeves.commailto:si...@simonreeves.com www.simonreeves.comhttp://www.simonreeves.com www.analogstudio.co.ukhttp://www.analogstudio.co.uk attachment: winmail.dat
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Should have been 'Render Schematic View ;-P Rob \/-\/\/ On 17-2-2015 19:10, Simon Reeves wrote: render tree isn't the best! Simon Reeves London, UK /si...@simonreeves.com mailto:si...@simonreeves.com/ /www.simonreeves.com http://www.simonreeves.com/ /www.analogstudio.co.uk http://www.analogstudio.co.uk// / On 17 February 2015 at 17:21, Greg Punchatz g...@janimation.com mailto:g...@janimation.com wrote: and in Maya's defense Soft got a lot of names goofy too... Envelopes should be called skinning Thats about the nicest thing I have to say about maya at this point ;) On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Robert Cole rob...@texturelighting.com mailto:rob...@texturelighting.com wrote: Whoa! The Hypershade.. it s'posed to be a Render Tree, not as good, or as functional, and the name sounded really cool in school... still not sure what's so hyper about it.. 'cept it gets me Hyper that's for sure. -R On 2/17/2015 11:16 AM, john clausing wrote: DAG or directed acyclic graph.what they mean is object hierarchy Hypershade..what they mean is material editor Hypergraph..what they mean is schematic Graph Editor.what they mean is animation editor Visorstill no idea Group.what they mean is null sorta, but it's called null in the outliner even though they call it group...waitwhat? Set.what they mean is group c'monaren't we past calling things nerdy names cause they're cool? thus endeth my rantsorry. john No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4284/9129 - Release Date: 02/17/15
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Why isn't Render Tree good? It's a tree of nodes for rendering... Same with ICE Tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:16 PM, Rob Wuijster wrote: Should have been 'Render Schematic View ;-P Rob \/-\/\/ On 17-2-2015 19:10, Simon Reeves wrote: render tree isn't the best! Simon Reeves London, UK /si...@simonreeves.com mailto:si...@simonreeves.com/ /www.simonreeves.com http://www.simonreeves.com/ /www.analogstudio.co.uk http://www.analogstudio.co.uk// /
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
The render tree is limited to… shader nodes. You can’t pull e.g. a transform node from the scene into it and drive a shader. In the ICE tree you can, for the most part as well with hyper shade, IIRC. Andy On Feb 17, 2015, at 19:22, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@hybride.com wrote: Why isn't Render Tree good? It's a tree of nodes for rendering... Same with ICE Tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:16 PM, Rob Wuijster wrote: Should have been 'Render Schematic View ;-P Rob \/-\/\/ On 17-2-2015 19:10, Simon Reeves wrote: render tree isn't the best! Simon Reeves London, UK si...@simonreeves.com mailto:si...@simonreeves.com www.simonreeves.com http://www.simonreeves.com/ www.analogstudio.co.uk http://www.analogstudio.co.uk/
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
The more I think about these naming decisions, the more I think Softimage did many, many things right. If I want to edit my animation I use an 'Animation Editor. If I want to have my renderings look good, I use a 'Render Tree'. I'm happy we have no 'hyper-nurbs' or a 'interactive mental-mill editor'. ;) Thank you Softimage! sven -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sven Constable Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 8:36 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Thinking about trees and graphs and editors and monkeys and cheese: Isn't a graph actually what we are calling the FCurve Editor? It should have been called Animation Graph Editor and a RenderTree/Shader Graph is actually more a Shader Layout Editor because it displays no graph at all... So its more a tree (rotated) than a graph. lol sven -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 8:20 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com; r...@casema.nl Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem I think some things need to be named so they don't have an implicit complexity to it. Graph I find has more complexity to it than Tree. And when you look at it (you know, head rotated 90 degrees) it does look like a tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:45 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Technically, it’s not a tree. It’s a graph. In fact, it’s directed and acyclic. gray
RE: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
Maybe Shader Tree would have described it better. Because we actually do shading in it, not rendering. On the other hand, any tree implies something growing upward. Well, the trees in Softimage go sidewards. Except the FX Tree, that thing goes downwards but it looks like a tree at least :) So Shader Graph seems even more suitable to me than Shader Tree. sven From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 7:23 PM To: r...@casema.nl; softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Maya thinks they're cleverand that's the problem Why isn't Render Tree good? It's a tree of nodes for rendering... Same with ICE Tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:16 PM, Rob Wuijster wrote: Should have been 'Render Schematic View ;-P Rob \/-\/\/ On 17-2-2015 19:10, Simon Reeves wrote: render tree isn't the best! Simon Reeves London, UK si...@simonreeves.com www.simonreeves.com www.analogstudio.co.uk
Re: Maya thinks they're clever....and that's the problem
I think some things need to be named so they don't have an implicit complexity to it. Graph I find has more complexity to it than Tree. And when you look at it (you know, head rotated 90 degrees) it does look like a tree. Eric T. On 2/17/2015 1:45 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Technically, it’s not a tree. It’s a graph. In fact, it’s directed and acyclic. gray
