Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[BIll Spikowski]

sean nathan wrote:
> Geoff Welsh wrote, On 11/19/2013 07:37 PM:
>> »Q« wrote:
>>> In,
>>> SamuelS  wrote:
>>>
 Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
 fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
 ASAP and then some...

 How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
 either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
 security fixes are excluded.
>>>
>>> There's nothing preventing this.  Users individually or in groups can
>>> offer whatever they want for specific work.
>>>
>>
>> I'll give Rufus a dollar to stop complaining about the drawn-short
>> drop-down boxes.  I don't need it fixed.  It doesn't affect functionality.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> GW
> 
> I've yet to find a drop down box that isn't complete...


I'm attaching the one that I got all the time these days -- on Windows
XP, not a Mac

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Rufus wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering
the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper
left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by
such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing
position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up
there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal
with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose
window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that
the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of
the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:








I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the
second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the
Spell Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??



I don't regularly use the Download Manager, but I took a quick look and
don't see any particular issue there...are others seeing a problem?

One thing I can add though, is that when I encounter the random Master
Password dialog and it comes up in a "window" like the Download Progress
dialog vise a drop, is is still drawn short.  I'm not sure how this is
all implemented, but the error appears to stick with the drop/window
it's encountered in no matter how it's presented.


Sorry, my mistake, I meant "Master Password" sub-screen rather than
Download Manager!!



Ok - I *am* seeing that one, and it was the observation that started
this whole thing!


and, hopefully, the Windows fix will bring about a rapid fix for Mac!!

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, the reason I was looking for SM 2.18B1 was that I was not
experiencing this problem when I was on one of the 2.18Betas, so figured
I'd go back there and work my way up through the Betas/Nightlies until
the problem did occur!!


There's no need. The regression was only introduced in SM 2.22.


O.K., thanks.


Jens, do you mean that the "nightly release" isn't one, continuing, ever
evolving, codebase, with regular (six weekly) Alpha->Beta->Final
releases off-shoots??


There is no "nightly release". Nightlies are just that, nightly builds
built from whatever code the trunk contained at the time.

HTH

Jens



O.K., so the "trunk" is the one, continuing, ever evolving, codebase, 
from which the "Nightlies" are produced then there are regular (six 
weekly) Alpha->Beta->Final releases off-shoots!


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Daniel wrote:

Jens, the reason I was looking for SM 2.18B1 was that I was not
experiencing this problem when I was on one of the 2.18Betas, so figured
I'd go back there and work my way up through the Betas/Nightlies until
the problem did occur!!


There's no need. The regression was only introduced in SM 2.22.


Jens, do you mean that the "nightly release" isn't one, continuing, ever
evolving, codebase, with regular (six weekly) Alpha->Beta->Final
releases off-shoots??


There is no "nightly release". Nightlies are just that, nightly builds 
built from whatever code the trunk contained at the time.


HTH

Jens

--
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SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering
the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by
such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing
position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up
there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal
with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose
window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that
the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:







I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the
second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the
Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??



I don't regularly use the Download Manager, but I took a quick look and
don't see any particular issue there...are others seeing a problem?

One thing I can add though, is that when I encounter the random Master
Password dialog and it comes up in a "window" like the Download Progress
dialog vise a drop, is is still drawn short.  I'm not sure how this is
all implemented, but the error appears to stick with the drop/window
it's encountered in no matter how it's presented.


Sorry, my mistake, I meant "Master Password" sub-screen rather than
Download Manager!!



Ok - I *am* seeing that one, and it was the observation that started 
this whole thing!


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Trane Francks]

On 11/29/13 7:27 PM +0900, Daniel wrote:

Trane Francks wrote:

On 11/28/13 6:23 PM +0900, Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by
remembering the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up
there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal
with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose
window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:





I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??


What is the problem with the Download Manager on OS X? I have seen no
issue with it. FWIW, the Download Manager is a window, not a drop-down
dialogue box.


See my response to Rufus.


Gotcha.

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// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Trane Francks wrote:

On 11/28/13 6:23 PM +0900, Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by
remembering the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up
there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal
with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose
window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:





I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??


What is the problem with the Download Manager on OS X? I have seen no
issue with it. FWIW, the Download Manager is a window, not a drop-down
dialogue box.


See my response to Rufus.

--
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Rufus wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering
the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up
there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal
with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose
window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:






I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??



I don't regularly use the Download Manager, but I took a quick look and
don't see any particular issue there...are others seeing a problem?

One thing I can add though, is that when I encounter the random Master
Password dialog and it comes up in a "window" like the Download Progress
dialog vise a drop, is is still drawn short.  I'm not sure how this is
all implemented, but the error appears to stick with the drop/window
it's encountered in no matter how it's presented.

Sorry, my mistake, I meant "Master Password" sub-screen rather than 
Download Manager!!


--
Daniel

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or

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

O.K., been to
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/seamonkey/nightly/2.18b1-candidates/build1/

but no x86_64 builds or even WOW64 builds showing.


First of all, the directory you cited is wrong. That's for old SM 2.18
Beta 1 builds. The correct directory for current SM trunk nightlies is:




Second, x86_64 builds are only provided for Linux. But as I already
said, there are currently no recent Linux nightly builds available
whatsoever.

Third, AFAIK WOW64 refers to the layer that provides the ability to run
32-bit software on 64-Windows. On 64-bit Windows versions you can just
run normal 32-bit SM versions.

HTH

Jens

Jens, the reason I was looking for SM 2.18B1 was that I was not 
experiencing this problem when I was on one of the 2.18Betas, so figured 
I'd go back there and work my way up through the Betas/Nightlies until 
the problem did occur!!


Jens, do you mean that the "nightly release" isn't one, continuing, ever 
evolving, codebase, with regular (six weekly) Alpha->Beta->Final 
releases off-shoots??


--
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Trane Francks]

On 11/28/13 6:23 PM +0900, Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:




I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??

What is the problem with the Download Manager on OS X? I have seen no 
issue with it. FWIW, the Download Manager is a window, not a drop-down 
dialogue box.


--
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// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Daniel wrote:

O.K., been to
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/seamonkey/nightly/2.18b1-candidates/build1/
but no x86_64 builds or even WOW64 builds showing.


First of all, the directory you cited is wrong. That's for old SM 2.18 
Beta 1 builds. The correct directory for current SM trunk nightlies is:




Second, x86_64 builds are only provided for Linux. But as I already 
said, there are currently no recent Linux nightly builds available 
whatsoever.


Third, AFAIK WOW64 refers to the layer that provides the ability to run 
32-bit software on 64-Windows. On 64-bit Windows versions you can just 
run normal 32-bit SM versions.


HTH

Jens

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering
the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal
with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:





I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is
with a Drop-down or window??



I don't regularly use the Download Manager, but I took a quick look and 
don't see any particular issue there...are others seeing a problem?


One thing I can add though, is that when I encounter the random Master 
Password dialog and it comes up in a "window" like the Download Progress 
dialog vise a drop, is is still drawn short.  I'm not sure how this is 
all implemented, but the error appears to stick with the drop/window 
it's encountered in no matter how it's presented.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:




I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


Given that we're talking about Mac v Windows and Drop=down v window, it 
would be interesting to find out if the Mac Download Manager problem is 
with a Drop-down or window and if the Windows Spell Checker problem is 
with a Drop-down or window??


--
Daniel

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Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190942

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Where might I d/l the Win x64_86 nightly's from??


In general you can download nightlies from

(the trunk ones are below directories containing "comm-central"). On
that level you can find directories relating to years (e.g. "2012"), and
below it for months (e.g. "10"). Latest trunk nightlies are always below
"latest-comm-central-trunk", but be advised that this directory is not
cleaned up regularly so it also lists some old builds.

Unfortunately, right now recent nightly builds are only available for
Windows. Builds for Linux have been missing for several weeks now due to
some unfulfilled Python dependencies on the build machines. Forgot what
the Mac issue was.

HTH

Jens


Thanks, Jens, and because I'm on my normal Linux tonight, I'm only being
offered Linux downloads. Must remember to boot into Windows tomorrow and
then download


O.K., been to 
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/seamonkey/nightly/2.18b1-candidates/build1/ 
but no x86_64 builds or even WOW64 builds showing.


Jens, should I be looking elsewhere, maybe ftp?? Or should I just pull 
my head in?? ;-)


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Philip Chee wrote:

On 27/11/2013 05:34, Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell
Check drop on the Mac version.


I'm not on a Mac so I can't answer your question.

Phil



The question is really more of a historical one - seeing as there are 
two differing implementations and yet a similar problem it would seem 
that something other than the Theme itself may be involved...just food 
for thought for the coders.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Philip Chee]

On 27/11/2013 05:34, Rufus wrote:
> Philip Chee wrote:

> How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a 
> drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell 
> Check drop on the Mac version.

I'm not on a Mac so I can't answer your question.

Phil

-- 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Where might I d/l the Win x64_86 nightly's from??


In general you can download nightlies from

(the trunk ones are below directories containing "comm-central"). On
that level you can find directories relating to years (e.g. "2012"), and
below it for months (e.g. "10"). Latest trunk nightlies are always below
"latest-comm-central-trunk", but be advised that this directory is not
cleaned up regularly so it also lists some old builds.

Unfortunately, right now recent nightly builds are only available for
Windows. Builds for Linux have been missing for several weeks now due to
some unfulfilled Python dependencies on the build machines. Forgot what
the Mac issue was.

HTH

Jens

Thanks, Jens, and because I'm on my normal Linux tonight, I'm only being 
offered Linux downloads. Must remember to boot into Windows tomorrow and 
then download


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User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190942

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Short screens (was:- Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....)

[Daniel]

Rufus wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:





I wish I had been paying more attention!

I'm not certain that the problem is new to 2.22; it's possible it
appeared back in 2.21.

Another complicating factor is that I sometimes wait a few weeks
before allowing SM to update. One extension that's critical to me,
Lightning (which lets me communicate with colleagues who use the
Outlook calendar), NEVER is ready when a SM update is released. I
think I understand why, and it's not something that SM can fix, but it
sure wrecks my day-to-day user experience...




I first noticed it after after 2.13.1.  It's been there at least that
long.


but you're on Mac, Rufus, so, apparently, it's different for Windows.




Actually I'm a bit unclear on that, given what I've been reading of
late.  I think more Win users use the Default Theme and it doesn't sound
like it's been a problem there.

I myself had originally remarked that this was a Mac only problem, but
given that people on both platforms are now observing the problem, and
even pointed out to me one dialog Id missed it in just because of the
way I use SM, I have to think that if the problem is with the Theme
itself it was probably introduced to everyone at the same time/point.
It's just that more people are looking now.  I think...


Rufus, as the result is the same (sub=windows being drawn short) is now 
the same on Mac and Windows, I would expect the cause is the same, or at 
least very similar.


Jens asked me to file a bug for Windows incarnation, so I did, and, it 
would appear a solution is not far off.


Maybe a solution for Mac is just a little bit further off!! ;-)

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User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190942

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 26/11/2013 20:05, hawker told the world:

On 11/26/2013 2:25 AM, Judy Dolby wrote:

*I love SeaMonkey, bugs and all. Years ago when Netscape came on the
scene, I got it and stuck with it.  At last there was an alternative to
leaky IE. I understand that SM is from Netscape.  I used Google Chrome
one day to pay a subscription and it never warned me, but I got hacked
badly, lost money, had to change 2 credit cards.  Look at window, non
stop fixes being downloaded!  Don;t give up SM guys, you are doing a
great job! :-)




That is an interesting way to put it. Netscape predates IE so I always
saw IE as an attempted alternative to Netscape, not the other way around.

SM isn't really from Netscape.Not from Netscape "the company" but surely from the Netscape product 

heredity.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[»Q«]

In ,
Rufus  wrote:

> Didn't/doesn't IE have roots in Mosaic?  I seem to recall reading
> that somewhere...

Some tech from NCSA Mosaic was used in IE;  I'm not sure it rises to the
importance of "roots".  NCSA had sold commercial rights to Spyglass,
and Spyglass licensed the stuff to Microsoft for use in IE.  I don't
think Microsoft have ever said specifically what they used, though I
guess someone familiar with the tech involved in the browser wars could
guess.
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Geoff Welsh]

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 26/11/2013 20:05, hawker told the world:

On 11/26/2013 2:25 AM, Judy Dolby wrote:

*I love SeaMonkey, bugs and all. Years ago when Netscape came on the
scene, I got it and stuck with it.  At last there was an alternative to
leaky IE. I understand that SM is from Netscape.  I used Google Chrome
one day to pay a subscription and it never warned me, but I got hacked
badly, lost money, had to change 2 credit cards.  Look at window, non
stop fixes being downloaded!  Don;t give up SM guys, you are doing a
great job! :-)




That is an interesting way to put it. Netscape predates IE so I always
saw IE as an attempted alternative to Netscape, not the other way around.

SM isn't really from Netscape. SM is from Mozilla, different code base.
That said Netscape used it at one time when they ditched Netscape 5 and
started over open source at Netscape 6. But when I think of Netscape I
think of 4.x and before.



Actually, neither is entirely correct.

Mozilla was originally the internal name (codename) for Netscape.
Netscape identified itself to Web servers as "Mozilla". That's the
reason many non-Mozilla products still have the word "Mozilla" somewhere
in their user-agent strings -- back then, spoofing Netscape was a
necessity. In fact, history is repeating itself with the Gecko rendering
engine (the one Mozilla products use), because several non-Mozilla
browsers identify themselves inserting "like Gecko" in their UA string...

Anyway... back in 1998 when Microsoft was pushing Netscape towards
bankruptcy by outspending it on R&D and giving away their products
(killing Netscape's business model), one of the last desperate maneuvers
of Netscape was the decision to go open-source. They created an
open-source project named "Mozilla" in order to develop a
next-generation browser. The idea was that a future version of Netscape
would be built upon the core Mozilla product.

(There are several explanations why there was never a "Netscape 5", but
one that makes some sense to me is that the original idea was that V5
was intended to be an interim release based on the old codebase, and V6
was to be based on the new Mozilla codebase. Eventually, the V5 project
was killed but the version numbers remained)

Soon after that, Netscape was gobbled up by AOL and ceased to exist as a
separate entity. AOL kept funding Netscape and the Mozilla project for a
few years, although sorta half-heartedly. Mozilla was sorta stuck in
Development Hell at the time.

Eventually, AOL decided to kill off the remains of Netscape, but --
surprisingly -- they did it in a rather nice way: instead of just
chucking it all to the bin, they spun off Mozilla as a non-profit
foundation and endowed it with a chunk of cash. Several former Netscape
employees went to work for the Mozilla foundation.

Anyway... the initial Mozilla product was a browser suite similar to
Netscape 4, but based on new code. This product failed to cause a big
splash. But a couple teams were working on their own in smaller, leaner,
simpler, more focused stand-alone products -- those ended up being
Firefox and Thunderbird. And Firefox DID cause a big splash.

With the success of Firefox, the Mozilla Foundation decided to
concentrate on Firefox and Thunderbird and abandon the development of
the Mozilla Application Suite.

A team of volunteers took over the MAS project, renamed it Seamonkey and
here we war now.

So, Seamonkey is not "from Netscape" (since that company ended a long
time ago) but it's the spiritual descendant of the old Netscape Suite.

And while IE began as an alternative to Netscape, by the time
Mozilla-branded products hit the Web IE was dominant, therefore anything
Mozilla was seen as an alternative to IE.



for anyone who hasn't seen it:

http://ilias.ca/MozillaNetscapeRelationship

by the group's moderator

GW
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 26/11/2013 20:05, hawker told the world:

On 11/26/2013 2:25 AM, Judy Dolby wrote:

*I love SeaMonkey, bugs and all. Years ago when Netscape came on the
scene, I got it and stuck with it.  At last there was an alternative to
leaky IE. I understand that SM is from Netscape.  I used Google Chrome
one day to pay a subscription and it never warned me, but I got hacked
badly, lost money, had to change 2 credit cards.  Look at window, non
stop fixes being downloaded!  Don;t give up SM guys, you are doing a
great job! :-)




That is an interesting way to put it. Netscape predates IE so I always
saw IE as an attempted alternative to Netscape, not the other way around.

SM isn't really from Netscape. SM is from Mozilla, different code base.
That said Netscape used it at one time when they ditched Netscape 5 and
started over open source at Netscape 6. But when I think of Netscape I
think of 4.x and before.



Actually, neither is entirely correct.

Mozilla was originally the internal name (codename) for Netscape.
Netscape identified itself to Web servers as "Mozilla". That's the
reason many non-Mozilla products still have the word "Mozilla" somewhere
in their user-agent strings -- back then, spoofing Netscape was a
necessity. In fact, history is repeating itself with the Gecko rendering
engine (the one Mozilla products use), because several non-Mozilla
browsers identify themselves inserting "like Gecko" in their UA string...

Anyway... back in 1998 when Microsoft was pushing Netscape towards
bankruptcy by outspending it on R&D and giving away their products
(killing Netscape's business model), one of the last desperate maneuvers
of Netscape was the decision to go open-source. They created an
open-source project named "Mozilla" in order to develop a
next-generation browser. The idea was that a future version of Netscape
would be built upon the core Mozilla product.

(There are several explanations why there was never a "Netscape 5", but
one that makes some sense to me is that the original idea was that V5
was intended to be an interim release based on the old codebase, and V6
was to be based on the new Mozilla codebase. Eventually, the V5 project
was killed but the version numbers remained)

Soon after that, Netscape was gobbled up by AOL and ceased to exist as a
separate entity. AOL kept funding Netscape and the Mozilla project for a
few years, although sorta half-heartedly. Mozilla was sorta stuck in
Development Hell at the time.

Eventually, AOL decided to kill off the remains of Netscape, but --
surprisingly -- they did it in a rather nice way: instead of just
chucking it all to the bin, they spun off Mozilla as a non-profit
foundation and endowed it with a chunk of cash. Several former Netscape
employees went to work for the Mozilla foundation.

Anyway... the initial Mozilla product was a browser suite similar to
Netscape 4, but based on new code. This product failed to cause a big
splash. But a couple teams were working on their own in smaller, leaner,
simpler, more focused stand-alone products -- those ended up being
Firefox and Thunderbird. And Firefox DID cause a big splash.

With the success of Firefox, the Mozilla Foundation decided to
concentrate on Firefox and Thunderbird and abandon the development of
the Mozilla Application Suite.

A team of volunteers took over the MAS project, renamed it Seamonkey and
here we war now.

So, Seamonkey is not "from Netscape" (since that company ended a long
time ago) but it's the spiritual descendant of the old Netscape Suite.

And while IE began as an alternative to Netscape, by the time
Mozilla-branded products hit the Web IE was dominant, therefore anything
Mozilla was seen as an alternative to IE.



Didn't/doesn't IE have roots in Mosaic?  I seem to recall reading that 
somewhere...


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[MCBastos]

Interviewed by CNN on 26/11/2013 20:05, hawker told the world:
> On 11/26/2013 2:25 AM, Judy Dolby wrote:
>> *I love SeaMonkey, bugs and all. Years ago when Netscape came on the
>> scene, I got it and stuck with it.  At last there was an alternative to
>> leaky IE. I understand that SM is from Netscape.  I used Google Chrome
>> one day to pay a subscription and it never warned me, but I got hacked
>> badly, lost money, had to change 2 credit cards.  Look at window, non
>> stop fixes being downloaded!  Don;t give up SM guys, you are doing a
>> great job! :-)
>>
>>
> 
> That is an interesting way to put it. Netscape predates IE so I always 
> saw IE as an attempted alternative to Netscape, not the other way around.
> 
> SM isn't really from Netscape. SM is from Mozilla, different code base. 
> That said Netscape used it at one time when they ditched Netscape 5 and 
> started over open source at Netscape 6. But when I think of Netscape I 
> think of 4.x and before.
> 

Actually, neither is entirely correct.

Mozilla was originally the internal name (codename) for Netscape.
Netscape identified itself to Web servers as "Mozilla". That's the
reason many non-Mozilla products still have the word "Mozilla" somewhere
in their user-agent strings -- back then, spoofing Netscape was a
necessity. In fact, history is repeating itself with the Gecko rendering
engine (the one Mozilla products use), because several non-Mozilla
browsers identify themselves inserting "like Gecko" in their UA string...

Anyway... back in 1998 when Microsoft was pushing Netscape towards
bankruptcy by outspending it on R&D and giving away their products
(killing Netscape's business model), one of the last desperate maneuvers
of Netscape was the decision to go open-source. They created an
open-source project named "Mozilla" in order to develop a
next-generation browser. The idea was that a future version of Netscape
would be built upon the core Mozilla product.

(There are several explanations why there was never a "Netscape 5", but
one that makes some sense to me is that the original idea was that V5
was intended to be an interim release based on the old codebase, and V6
was to be based on the new Mozilla codebase. Eventually, the V5 project
was killed but the version numbers remained)

Soon after that, Netscape was gobbled up by AOL and ceased to exist as a
separate entity. AOL kept funding Netscape and the Mozilla project for a
few years, although sorta half-heartedly. Mozilla was sorta stuck in
Development Hell at the time.

Eventually, AOL decided to kill off the remains of Netscape, but --
surprisingly -- they did it in a rather nice way: instead of just
chucking it all to the bin, they spun off Mozilla as a non-profit
foundation and endowed it with a chunk of cash. Several former Netscape
employees went to work for the Mozilla foundation.

Anyway... the initial Mozilla product was a browser suite similar to
Netscape 4, but based on new code. This product failed to cause a big
splash. But a couple teams were working on their own in smaller, leaner,
simpler, more focused stand-alone products -- those ended up being
Firefox and Thunderbird. And Firefox DID cause a big splash.

With the success of Firefox, the Mozilla Foundation decided to
concentrate on Firefox and Thunderbird and abandon the development of
the Mozilla Application Suite.

A team of volunteers took over the MAS project, renamed it Seamonkey and
here we war now.

So, Seamonkey is not "from Netscape" (since that company ended a long
time ago) but it's the spiritual descendant of the old Netscape Suite.

And while IE began as an alternative to Netscape, by the time
Mozilla-branded products hit the Web IE was dominant, therefore anything
Mozilla was seen as an alternative to IE.

-- 
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

-=-=-
... Sent from my Bat-Computer.
* Added by TagZilla 0.7a1 running on Seamonkey 2.22 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[hawker]

On 11/26/2013 2:25 AM, Judy Dolby wrote:

*I love SeaMonkey, bugs and all. Years ago when Netscape came on the
scene, I got it and stuck with it.  At last there was an alternative to
leaky IE. I understand that SM is from Netscape.  I used Google Chrome
one day to pay a subscription and it never warned me, but I got hacked
badly, lost money, had to change 2 credit cards.  Look at window, non
stop fixes being downloaded!  Don;t give up SM guys, you are doing a
great job! :-)




That is an interesting way to put it. Netscape predates IE so I always 
saw IE as an attempted alternative to Netscape, not the other way around.


SM isn't really from Netscape. SM is from Mozilla, different code base. 
That said Netscape used it at one time when they ditched Netscape 5 and 
started over open source at Netscape 6. But when I think of Netscape I 
think of 4.x and before.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Daniel wrote:

Where might I d/l the Win x64_86 nightly's from??


In general you can download nightlies from

(the trunk ones are below directories containing "comm-central"). On 
that level you can find directories relating to years (e.g. "2012"), and 
below it for months (e.g. "10"). Latest trunk nightlies are always below 
"latest-comm-central-trunk", but be advised that this directory is not 
cleaned up regularly so it also lists some old builds.


Unfortunately, right now recent nightly builds are only available for 
Windows. Builds for Linux have been missing for several weeks now due to 
some unfulfilled Python dependencies on the build machines. Forgot what 
the Mac issue was.


HTH

Jens

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Daniel wrote:

Rufus wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't
want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there
are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you
can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down
to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in
code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm
seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.



These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
dialog boxes.


When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??

(Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)



At least several weeks now. Since the problem doesn't really interfere
with how I use Seamonkey, I hadn't paid it too much attention.


Reason I asked, Bill, was that my Win7 Internet was non-functional
for a
good while, so I updated from about 2.18 to 2.22 in one go, so the
problem could have occured anywhere in that time, but you seem to be
suggesting SM was o.k. in 2.21 but broken in 2.22.

Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing
the release/time frame is handy.



I wish I had been paying more attention!

I'm not certain that the problem is new to 2.22; it's possible it
appeared back in 2.21.

Another complicating factor is that I sometimes wait a few weeks
before allowing SM to update. One extension that's critical to me,
Lightning (which lets me communicate with colleagues who use the
Outlook calendar), NEVER is ready when a SM update is released. I
think I understand why, and it's not something that SM can fix, but it
sure wrecks my day-to-day user experience...




I first noticed it after after 2.13.1.  It's been there at least that
long.


but you're on Mac, Rufus, so, apparently, it's different for Windows.




Actually I'm a bit unclear on that, given what I've been reading of 
late.  I think more Win users use the Default Theme and it doesn't sound 
like it's been a problem there.


I myself had originally remarked that this was a Mac only problem, but 
given that people on both platforms are now observing the problem, and 
even pointed out to me one dialog Id missed it in just because of the 
way I use SM, I have to think that if the problem is with the Theme 
itself it was probably introduced to everyone at the same time/point. 
It's just that more people are looking now.  I think...


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Philip Chee wrote:

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:



Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:



I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil



How did it come to pass that this is a Window on the Win version and a 
drop-dialog on the Mac version?  I'm not seeing a problem with the Spell 
Check drop on the Mac version.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Philip Chee]

On 26/11/2013 05:55, Rufus wrote:
> Ed Mullen wrote:

>> Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering the
>> last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
>> corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
>> window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
>> would forever be not a problem.
>>
>> And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there
>> would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
>> spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
>> spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal with,
>> not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I
>> am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
>> (doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.

The truth is rather more mundane. Back in 2002 someone noticed that the
spellcheck sub-window was always stuck in the upper left corner of the
screen. So he fixed it. Or rather he attempted to fix it but didn't
check if his fix worked or not. See line 47 of the folllowing link:



I'm in the process of fixing this as part of Bug 942548. See the second
half of Bug 942548 Comment #2 for more details.



Phil

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[WaltS]

On 11/26/2013 04:02 AM, Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing
the release/time frame is handy.


Handy maybe, but certainly not required to get started. The first thing
to do once a problem has been verified would be to create a bug. Then
everyone has a place to store and update additional information such as
attachments, analyses, and findings.

[After all, identifying the release that first introduced an issue is
only the first step anyway. What we really need is regression windows
down to the day, and that you only get with nightly builds. If the bug
reporter can provide that level of detail it's fine. But it's also OK if
not.]

HTH

Jens



Gee, tempting, Jens, tempting!!

Where might I d/l the Win x64_86 nightly's from??




No such nightly available only win32. No SM 2.25a1 for Linux either. (:

[Index of 
/pub/mozilla.org/seamonkey/nightly/latest-comm-central-trunk](http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/seamonkey/nightly/latest-comm-central-trunk/)

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Philip Chee wrote:

On 24/11/2013 17:07, Daniel wrote:


Thanks, guys, for confirming you are seeing what I am seeing.

Now for Bugzilla. Check out the "Windows Only" bug,
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548


I've submitted a patch. The next step is for the patch to be reviewed.

Phil


Don't you guy's ever sleep?? ;-)

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User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing
the release/time frame is handy.


Handy maybe, but certainly not required to get started. The first thing
to do once a problem has been verified would be to create a bug. Then
everyone has a place to store and update additional information such as
attachments, analyses, and findings.

[After all, identifying the release that first introduced an issue is
only the first step anyway. What we really need is regression windows
down to the day, and that you only get with nightly builds. If the bug
reporter can provide that level of detail it's fine. But it's also OK if
not.]

HTH

Jens



Gee, tempting, Jens, tempting!!

Where might I d/l the Win x64_86 nightly's from??

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User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Rufus wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't
want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there
are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you
can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down
to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in
code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.



These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
dialog boxes.


When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??

(Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)



At least several weeks now. Since the problem doesn't really interfere
with how I use Seamonkey, I hadn't paid it too much attention.


Reason I asked, Bill, was that my Win7 Internet was non-functional for a
good while, so I updated from about 2.18 to 2.22 in one go, so the
problem could have occured anywhere in that time, but you seem to be
suggesting SM was o.k. in 2.21 but broken in 2.22.

Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing
the release/time frame is handy.



I wish I had been paying more attention!

I'm not certain that the problem is new to 2.22; it's possible it
appeared back in 2.21.

Another complicating factor is that I sometimes wait a few weeks
before allowing SM to update. One extension that's critical to me,
Lightning (which lets me communicate with colleagues who use the
Outlook calendar), NEVER is ready when a SM update is released. I
think I understand why, and it's not something that SM can fix, but it
sure wrecks my day-to-day user experience...




I first noticed it after after 2.13.1.  It's been there at least that long.


but you're on Mac, Rufus, so, apparently, it's different for Windows.


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Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Judy Dolby]

*I love SeaMonkey, bugs and all. Years ago when Netscape came on the 
scene, I got it and stuck with it.  At last there was an alternative to 
leaky IE. I understand that SM is from Netscape.  I used Google Chrome 
one day to pay a subscription and it never warned me, but I got hacked 
badly, lost money, had to change 2 credit cards.  Look at window, non 
stop fixes being downloaded!  Don;t give up SM guys, you are doing a 
great job! :-)


*
chicagofan wrote:

Edmund Wong wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.

Edmund


No apologies necessary!  Although you don't see it mentioned too 
often, the SeaMonkey users appreciate all that everyone does to keep 
this great application available.  I wish I could help, but my 
memoryis beyond the stage that I could handle coding.  I have as much 
as I can handle [as a user only]  keeping up with all the Windows 
changes, and now SeaMonkey changes to keep up with Firefox.;)


So thanks to you, Edmund for everything you do, along with all the 
other developers.

bj
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Ed Mullen wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:


Rufus wrote:


No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin
is drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.



Good grief.

http://edmullen.net/temp/c101.jpg


You're lucky. On my screen, I can barely see the top edges of those
buttons. If I'm not very careful, I could miss them and click something
nearby by mistake.



Let's compare in case it makes a difference.

Windows 7 Professional SP1
1920x1080 screen
SM 2.22.1

Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering the
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it
would forever be not a problem.

And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal with,
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.

Hey, my 1.1 cents adjusted for inflation.



I don't think it's that simple - in some cases these are drop downs, in 
other cases they are windows...so there are likely two solutions 
required - one for each case.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.



These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
dialog boxes.


When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??

(Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)



At least several weeks now. Since the problem doesn't really interfere
with how I use Seamonkey, I hadn't paid it too much attention.


Reason I asked, Bill, was that my Win7 Internet was non-functional for a
good while, so I updated from about 2.18 to 2.22 in one go, so the
problem could have occured anywhere in that time, but you seem to be
suggesting SM was o.k. in 2.21 but broken in 2.22.

Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing
the release/time frame is handy.



I wish I had been paying more attention!

I'm not certain that the problem is new to 2.22; it's possible it
appeared back in 2.21.

Another complicating factor is that I sometimes wait a few weeks
before allowing SM to update. One extension that's critical to me,
Lightning (which lets me communicate with colleagues who use the
Outlook calendar), NEVER is ready when a SM update is released. I
think I understand why, and it's not something that SM can fix, but it
sure wrecks my day-to-day user experience...




I first noticed it after after 2.13.1.  It's been there at least that long.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[chicagofan]

Edmund Wong wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.

Edmund


No apologies necessary!  Although you don't see it mentioned too often, 
the SeaMonkey users appreciate all that everyone does to keep this great 
application available.  I wish I could help, but my memoryis beyond the 
stage that I could handle coding.  I have as much as I can handle [as a 
user only]  keeping up with all the Windows changes, and now SeaMonkey 
changes to keep up with Firefox.;)


So thanks to you, Edmund for everything you do, along with all the other 
developers.

bj
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[EE]

Edmund Wong wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.

Edmund


I think the problem of the dialog boxes is in the core of all the 
Mozilla applications.  I have seen the same problem of buttons being cut 
off in Firefox and Thunderbird as well as SeaMonkey.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[WaltS]

Geoff Welsh wrote:

EE wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!


Jens, I have posted a bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548 for this "Windows
Only" problem.


The problem of the bottom of buttons being cut off is NOT Windows only.
I have seen that many times with Mac OS. I do not see it now because I
found out how to fix it.



"EE",

learning how to hack third party themes, as you described in your
previous post, is not fixing SeaMonkey.  Many people, like me, don't
have any idea what a third party theme is/does/why/WTF etc.

GW



See






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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[EE]

Geoff Welsh wrote:

EE wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!


Jens, I have posted a bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548 for this "Windows
Only" problem.


The problem of the bottom of buttons being cut off is NOT Windows only.
I have seen that many times with Mac OS. I do not see it now because I
found out how to fix it.



"EE",

learning how to hack third party themes, as you described in your
previous post, is not fixing SeaMonkey.  Many people, like me, don't
have any idea what a third party theme is/does/why/WTF etc.

GW


The appearance of SeaMonkey depends on its theme.  If you do not like 
the default themes that come with it, you get other ones.  These are now 
called "complete themes" on the add-ons site.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Jens Hatlak wrote:


As far as I understand Philip's proposed patch, the dialog used to
auto-size itself. It's just that this functionality was accidentally
broken through a fix for another problem.


OK, well, autosizing would be my preference as well, if it's feasible. 
Programmers shouldn't have to calculate box sizes; we have computers for 
that.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Why don't the developers use a similar technique for the default and
modern themes? Even if end users don't have access to the css for those
themes, they must...


Because that's just wallpapering over the actual issue. If something 
worked before (i.e. regressed), it's very likely that a better solution 
exists. And that one will then be more obvious (for programmers at 
least). If you wallpaper too much, you'll quickly lose sight of why 
certain workarounds had been applied in the first place. It should 
really be a last resort only.



Of course, they could also let the dialogs expand to fit their contents,
instead of hard-coding their sizes (an error seen all too often on the
web). Or am I being unreasonable?


As far as I understand Philip's proposed patch, the dialog used to 
auto-size itself. It's just that this functionality was accidentally 
broken through a fix for another problem.


HTH

Jens

--
Jens Hatlak 
SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing
the release/time frame is handy.


Handy maybe, but certainly not required to get started. The first thing 
to do once a problem has been verified would be to create a bug. Then 
everyone has a place to store and update additional information such as 
attachments, analyses, and findings.


[After all, identifying the release that first introduced an issue is 
only the first step anyway. What we really need is regression windows 
down to the day, and that you only get with nightly builds. If the bug 
reporter can provide that level of detail it's fine. But it's also OK if 
not.]


HTH

Jens

--
Jens Hatlak 
SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Philip Chee]

On 24/11/2013 17:07, Daniel wrote:

> Thanks, guys, for confirming you are seeing what I am seeing.
> 
> Now for Bugzilla. Check out the "Windows Only" bug, 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548

I've submitted a patch. The next step is for the patch to be reviewed.

Phil

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ray_Net]

Daniel wrote, On 25/11/2013 11:32:

Edmund Wong wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.

Edmund


Ewong, you do much more for us SeaMonkey users, so I've got no reason 
to complain.


I did not complain against developer who do his best to cure a bug. I 
just complain against brilliant developers who prefer developing a non 
needed new gadget instead of fixing bugs.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ant]

On 11/25/2013 2:32 AM PT, Daniel typed:


Edmund Wong wrote:


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.


Ewong, you do much more for us SeaMonkey users, so I've got no reason to
complain.


Ditto. Thank you Edmund and others. You guys rock! I will do my best to 
participate with issues too. :)

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Edmund Wong wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.

Edmund


Ewong, you do much more for us SeaMonkey users, so I've got no reason to 
complain.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

EE wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!


Jens, I have posted a bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548 for this "Windows
Only" problem.


The problem of the bottom of buttons being cut off is NOT Windows only.
  I have seen that many times with Mac OS.  I do not see it now because
I found out how to fix it.


EE, have a read of the bug linked at top, above (bug 912050). That is 
the bug for the buttons being cut off on Mac's.


Jens wanted me to raise a separate bug for Windows.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Edmund Wong]

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


As mentioned earlier by others, it isn't the 'monetary value' that
spurs us to fix bugs; but it's the time required to sit down and
do the coding.  We're all volunteers with this community project
and well all want this project to have every single fix done.
Again, it's the time required, which makes it hard when we all
have our daytime jobs.

I don't speak for the rest of the guys, but I would love to
really fix all the bugs (security or otherwise) in SeaMonkey.
However, in my case only, I'm not a very good developer and
all I can do are the 'simple bugs'. I haven't quite gotten to
the stage of what I'd like; but I'm improving with each bug I fix.
(sort of).  I'm finding that it's hard for me to get into the
zone to really do some brilliant coding.

I'm doing as much as my brain can handle.  I do apologize for
sucking so much and not doing a good job at doing the hard
bugs; but, like I said, I'm trying to improve at it.  But
I do get frustrated when I do a hard bug.  It's one thing
I don't want to do is to get frustrated and give up.

Thanks for everyone's patience.  Kudos to those who tackle
the hard bugs.

Edmund
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Geoff Welsh]

EE wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!


Jens, I have posted a bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548 for this "Windows
Only" problem.


The problem of the bottom of buttons being cut off is NOT Windows only.
I have seen that many times with Mac OS. I do not see it now because I
found out how to fix it.



"EE",

learning how to hack third party themes, as you described in your 
previous post, is not fixing SeaMonkey.  Many people, like me, don't 
have any idea what a third party theme is/does/why/WTF etc.


GW
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Paul B. Gallagher]

EE wrote:


If you are using a third-party theme, you can fix that too.  In the
global directory in the installer archive there is a file called
dialog.css.  In there is an element called ".dialog-button".  You can
add an extra line to that so that the setting reads like this:

.dialog-button {
   font: menu;
   margin-top: 3px;
margin-bottom: 13px;
}

That will prevent the buttons being cut off.


Why don't the developers use a similar technique for the default and 
modern themes? Even if end users don't have access to the css for those 
themes, they must...


Of course, they could also let the dialogs expand to fit their contents, 
instead of hard-coding their sizes (an error seen all too often on the 
web). Or am I being unreasonable?


--
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--
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[BIll Spikowski]

Daniel wrote:
> BIll Spikowski wrote:
>> Daniel wrote:
>>> BIll Spikowski wrote:
 Daniel wrote:
> Jens Hatlak wrote:
>> Rufus wrote:
>>> Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
>>> path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
>>> interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?
>>
>> Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...
>>
>> * Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
>> developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
>> (which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
>> two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
>> very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
>> of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
>> a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
>> occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
>> try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
>> nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
>> becomes possible.
>
> Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
> clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


 These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
 on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
 dialog boxes.
>>>
>>> When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??
>>>
>>> (Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)
>>
>>
>> At least several weeks now. Since the problem doesn't really interfere
>> with how I use Seamonkey, I hadn't paid it too much attention.
> 
> Reason I asked, Bill, was that my Win7 Internet was non-functional for a 
> good while, so I updated from about 2.18 to 2.22 in one go, so the 
> problem could have occured anywhere in that time, but you seem to be 
> suggesting SM was o.k. in 2.21 but broken in 2.22.
> 
> Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug 
> for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing 
> the release/time frame is handy.


I wish I had been paying more attention!

I'm not certain that the problem is new to 2.22; it's possible it
appeared back in 2.21.

Another complicating factor is that I sometimes wait a few weeks
before allowing SM to update. One extension that's critical to me,
Lightning (which lets me communicate with colleagues who use the
Outlook calendar), NEVER is ready when a SM update is released. I
think I understand why, and it's not something that SM can fix, but it
sure wrecks my day-to-day user experience...


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[EE]

Rufus wrote:

EE wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.

* Path following. Sorry, don't know what you mean.

* Profile Manager. Don't know either, but AFAIK the Profile Manager code
lives in shared code governed by Mozilla platform developers. Making
changes their might be harder compared to SM-only code.

I'm not saying that a committed developer couldn't achieve something
there. It's just much easier to fix well-known and -understood issues or
implement new features where you have a clear understanding on what
needs to be done technically and what needs to be kept in mind during
development.

Beyond that, it cannot be repeated often enough, SM developers are doing
everything they do in their free time, in addition to their day jobs. So
as has already been said, money is not really a driving factor there.
Knowledge in the field and time are.

Greetings,

Jens


If by short drop downs you mean that the menu disappears instantly if
you move the cursor off it a bit, it is possible to add a short delay so
that you have a bit more time to move the cursor.  I did that in
about:config.
ui.submenuDelay - 800 - time in milliseconds



No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin is
drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.

If you are using a third-party theme, you can fix that too.  In the 
global directory in the installer archive there is a file called 
dialog.css.  In there is an element called ".dialog-button".  You can 
add an extra line to that so that the setting reads like this:


.dialog-button {
  font: menu;
  margin-top: 3px;
margin-bottom: 13px;
}

That will prevent the buttons being cut off.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[EE]

Daniel wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!


Jens, I have posted a bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548 for this "Windows
Only" problem.

The problem of the bottom of buttons being cut off is NOT Windows only. 
 I have seen that many times with Mac OS.  I do not see it now because 
I found out how to fix it.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:


Rufus wrote:


No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin
is drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.



Good grief.

http://edmullen.net/temp/c101.jpg


You're lucky. On my screen, I can barely see the top edges of those
buttons. If I'm not very careful, I could miss them and click something
nearby by mistake.

I did mistake the button  so I think I've added a mis-spelt word to 
my dictionary!!


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!

Jens, I have posted a bug 
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548 for this "Windows 
Only" problem.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want
one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to
the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in
code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving
the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.


You're right--this is getting strange!


but did the drop-down draw correctly the next time, or do you have to
drag it each and every time you go to send an e-mail/NG post??

Mine is the later.


Mixed answer. Have to drag it (however slightly) to get the "full"
screen, but it is NOT necessary to drag it to send an e-mail/post, as
half of the "Close" and "Language" click-able bars are visible and can
be used without dragging.

Larry S.


Yes, exactly the same here.


Thanks, guys, for confirming you are seeing what I am seeing.

Now for Bugzilla. Check out the "Windows Only" bug, 
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=942548


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:


Rufus wrote:


No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin
is drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.



Good grief.

http://edmullen.net/temp/c101.jpg


You're lucky. On my screen, I can barely see the top edges of those
buttons. If I'm not very careful, I could miss them and click something
nearby by mistake.



Let's compare in case it makes a difference.

Windows 7 Professional SP1
1920x1080 screen
SM 2.22.1

Frankly, it seems the issue could be resolved simply by remembering the 
last window position instead of pegging the window in the upper left 
corner of the screen.  Thus, if, as I usually do when annoyed by such 
window positioning, I move the window to a more pleasing position, it 
would forever be not a problem.


And, yes, I get that some dev decided that shoving the window up there 
would keep it out of the way of the compose window that is being 
spell-checked.  I disagree.  My visual focus needs to be on the 
spell-check window:  That's where the info is that I need to deal with, 
not in the compose window.  If I need to refer to the compose window I 
am smart enough to be able to move the spell-check window if it is 
(doubtful in my config) obscuring the compose window.


Hey, my 1.1 cents adjusted for inflation.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
"Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice." - 
George Jackson

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Ed Mullen wrote:


Rufus wrote:


No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin
is drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.



Good grief.

http://edmullen.net/temp/c101.jpg


You're lucky. On my screen, I can barely see the top edges of those 
buttons. If I'm not very careful, I could miss them and click something 
nearby by mistake.


--
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--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

Rufus wrote:

EE wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.

* Path following. Sorry, don't know what you mean.

* Profile Manager. Don't know either, but AFAIK the Profile Manager code
lives in shared code governed by Mozilla platform developers. Making
changes their might be harder compared to SM-only code.

I'm not saying that a committed developer couldn't achieve something
there. It's just much easier to fix well-known and -understood issues or
implement new features where you have a clear understanding on what
needs to be done technically and what needs to be kept in mind during
development.

Beyond that, it cannot be repeated often enough, SM developers are doing
everything they do in their free time, in addition to their day jobs. So
as has already been said, money is not really a driving factor there.
Knowledge in the field and time are.

Greetings,

Jens


If by short drop downs you mean that the menu disappears instantly if
you move the cursor off it a bit, it is possible to add a short delay so
that you have a bit more time to move the cursor.  I did that in
about:config.
ui.submenuDelay - 800 - time in milliseconds



No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin is
drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.



Good grief.

http://edmullen.net/temp/c101.jpg

--
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http://edmullen.net/
Why can't women put on mascara with their mouth closed?
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

EE wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.

* Path following. Sorry, don't know what you mean.

* Profile Manager. Don't know either, but AFAIK the Profile Manager code
lives in shared code governed by Mozilla platform developers. Making
changes their might be harder compared to SM-only code.

I'm not saying that a committed developer couldn't achieve something
there. It's just much easier to fix well-known and -understood issues or
implement new features where you have a clear understanding on what
needs to be done technically and what needs to be kept in mind during
development.

Beyond that, it cannot be repeated often enough, SM developers are doing
everything they do in their free time, in addition to their day jobs. So
as has already been said, money is not really a driving factor there.
Knowledge in the field and time are.

Greetings,

Jens


If by short drop downs you mean that the menu disappears instantly if
you move the cursor off it a bit, it is possible to add a short delay so
that you have a bit more time to move the cursor.  I did that in
about:config.
ui.submenuDelay - 800 - time in milliseconds



No - that's not the problem.  The problem is that the bottom margin is 
drawn short, cutting off the bottom half of the buttons, etc.


--
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Geoff Welsh]

EE wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right? Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.

* Path following. Sorry, don't know what you mean.

* Profile Manager. Don't know either, but AFAIK the Profile Manager code
lives in shared code governed by Mozilla platform developers. Making
changes their might be harder compared to SM-only code.

I'm not saying that a committed developer couldn't achieve something
there. It's just much easier to fix well-known and -understood issues or
implement new features where you have a clear understanding on what
needs to be done technically and what needs to be kept in mind during
development.

Beyond that, it cannot be repeated often enough, SM developers are doing
everything they do in their free time, in addition to their day jobs. So
as has already been said, money is not really a driving factor there.
Knowledge in the field and time are.

Greetings,

Jens


If by short drop downs you mean that the menu disappears instantly



no that's not what they are talking about

GW
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[EE]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.

* Path following. Sorry, don't know what you mean.

* Profile Manager. Don't know either, but AFAIK the Profile Manager code
lives in shared code governed by Mozilla platform developers. Making
changes their might be harder compared to SM-only code.

I'm not saying that a committed developer couldn't achieve something
there. It's just much easier to fix well-known and -understood issues or
implement new features where you have a clear understanding on what
needs to be done technically and what needs to be kept in mind during
development.

Beyond that, it cannot be repeated often enough, SM developers are doing
everything they do in their free time, in addition to their day jobs. So
as has already been said, money is not really a driving factor there.
Knowledge in the field and time are.

Greetings,

Jens

If by short drop downs you mean that the menu disappears instantly if 
you move the cursor off it a bit, it is possible to add a short delay so 
that you have a bit more time to move the cursor.  I did that in 
about:config.

ui.submenuDelay - 800 - time in milliseconds

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Geoff Welsh]

Robert Kaiser wrote:

Ed Mullen schrieb:

The vast majority of people here have no
coding ability but do have a love of the product.


If they have the ability to learn a coding ability, they should dare to
do so. That would be *very* helpful.

Robert Kaiser



KaiRo,

if any one of us lived down the street from any one of you guys, you 
could hand us two piles of something and say "find what went wrong 
between this pile 2.0 and this pile 2,1 " but starting from scratch is 
impossible.  I once spent about three months trying to figure out how to 
make a web page, and I could teach everything I learned in an hour.


If you ever visit Hawaii, I'd be glad to find out if I "have the ability 
to learn a coding ability".

GW
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want
one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to
the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.


You're right--this is getting strange!


but did the drop-down draw correctly the next time, or do you have to
drag it each and every time you go to send an e-mail/NG post??

Mine is the later.


Mixed answer. Have to drag it (however slightly) to get the "full"
screen, but it is NOT necessary to drag it to send an e-mail/post, as
half of the "Close" and "Language" click-able bars are visible and can
be used without dragging.

Larry S.


Yes, exactly the same here.

--
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http://edmullen.net/
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Jim Taylor wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't
want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to
the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.



Just what are you moving?  In the Mac version I can't drag/drop or
move any part of the drop down.



The short spelling check box on Windows is not a drop down. It's a modal
dialog box.  I don't know how it is implemented on a Mac, but on Windows
it pops up on the top left of the screen with the top of the box
slightly off the display area and the bottom of the box shortened.  If
you click on the title bar and drag it slightly (the way you move any
window on Windows) it corrects itself.

Jim


Ok...on the Mac version the Spelling Check dialog is a drop down.  And 
for some reason I thought I'd checked it and verified that I was seeing 
it drawn short too, but I checked just now and it's drawn correctly.


Checked my Outbox for previous post - it's the Confirm and Send drop 
that's also being drawn short...I think this one is being seen on both 
Mac and Win versions.


I haven't seen any short-drawn modal boxes in the Mac version, as of yet.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Larry S.]

Daniel wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want
one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.


You're right--this is getting strange!


but did the drop-down draw correctly the next time, or do you have to
drag it each and every time you go to send an e-mail/NG post??

Mine is the later.

Mixed answer. Have to drag it (however slightly) to get the "full" 
screen, but it is NOT necessary to drag it to send an e-mail/post, as 
half of the "Close" and "Language" click-able bars are visible and can 
be used without dragging.


Larry S.
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jim Taylor]

Rufus wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop
downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't
want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for
having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root
causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug)
and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to
the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.



Just what are you moving?  In the Mac version I can't drag/drop or
move any part of the drop down.



The short spelling check box on Windows is not a drop down. It's a 
modal dialog box.  I don't know how it is implemented on a Mac, but on 
Windows it pops up on the top left of the screen with the top of the 
box slightly off the display area and the bottom of the box shortened. 
 If you click on the title bar and drag it slightly (the way you move 
any window on Windows) it corrects itself.


Jim
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Larry S. wrote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want
one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.


You're right--this is getting strange!


but did the drop-down draw correctly the next time, or do you have to 
drag it each and every time you go to send an e-mail/NG post??


Mine is the later.

--
Daniel

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190942

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.



These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
dialog boxes.


When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??

(Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)



At least several weeks now. Since the problem doesn't really interfere
with how I use Seamonkey, I hadn't paid it too much attention.


Reason I asked, Bill, was that my Win7 Internet was non-functional for a 
good while, so I updated from about 2.18 to 2.22 in one go, so the 
problem could have occured anywhere in that time, but you seem to be 
suggesting SM was o.k. in 2.21 but broken in 2.22.


Jens Hatlak (SM Dev team) now seems to want me to start a separate Bug 
for this Windows problem (as distinct to the Mac's problem), so knowing 
the release/time frame is handy.



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User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens


Tks!

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.



Just what are you moving?  In the Mac version I can't drag/drop or move 
any part of the drop down.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Can't move anything in the Mac SM.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Larry S.]

Ed Mullen wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM
specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are
only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can
do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.


You're right--this is getting strange!
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

Larry S. wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).

Larry S.


Or, oddly enough, UP.

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Can you buy anything specific at a general store?
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Daniel wrote:

Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


Added a comment to the bug.

HTH

Jens

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SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Larry S.]

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.

Same here on Win 7 SM 2.22.1. Easily fixed by very slightly moving the 
screen down from the top (as previously suggested).


Larry S.
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Robert Kaiser]

Ed Mullen schrieb:

The vast majority of people here have no
coding ability but do have a love of the product.


If they have the ability to learn a coding ability, they should dare to 
do so. That would be *very* helpful.


Robert Kaiser

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[BIll Spikowski]

Daniel wrote:
> BIll Spikowski wrote:
>> Daniel wrote:
>>> Jens Hatlak wrote:
 Rufus wrote:
> Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
> path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
> interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?

 Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

 * Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
 developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
 (which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
 two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
 very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
 of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
 a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
 occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
 try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
 nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
 becomes possible.
>>>
>>> Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
>>> clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.
>>
>>
>> These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
>> on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
>> dialog boxes.
> 
> When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??
> 
> (Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)


At least several weeks now. Since the problem doesn't really interfere
with how I use Seamonkey, I hadn't paid it too much attention.


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

BIll Spikowski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.



These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
dialog boxes.


When you say "These days,", how long are we talking, Bill??

(Glad to see it's not just me with Windows problems!!)

--
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User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[BIll Spikowski]

Daniel wrote:
> Jens Hatlak wrote:
>> Rufus wrote:
>>> Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
>>> path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
>>> interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?
>>
>> Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...
>>
>> * Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
>> developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
>> (which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
>> two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
>> very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
>> of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
>> a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
>> occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
>> try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
>> nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
>> becomes possible.
> 
> Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a 
> clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


These days, the Spell Checker dialog is ALWAYS clipped at the bottom
on my Windows XP system. I haven't seen the problem on any other
dialog boxes.

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Geoff Welsh wrote:

»Q« wrote:

In,
SamuelS  wrote:


Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


There's nothing preventing this.  Users individually or in groups can
offer whatever they want for specific work.



I'll give Rufus a dollar to stop complaining about the drawn-short
drop-down boxes.  I don't need it fixed.  It doesn't affect functionality.

;-)

GW


I did reply to Geoff about 55 hours ago, but I'm told it has been 
removed, and I don't know why!


My post was

Quote>
> I'll give Rufus a dollar to stop complaining about the drawn-short
> drop-down boxes.  I don't need it fixed.  It doesn't affect 
functionality.

>
>
>
> GW

Well, it almost affect me on my Win7 install, so I'd like it fixed. I 
don't think Rufus is complaining too much!


--
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End Quote

and, I should add, I've spotted an error, ... my post should have begun 
"Well, it also affected me on my Win7 .."


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b)
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code
becomes possible.


Jens, could you please check out my Comment 11 on 
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812050, as I'm seeing a 
clipped screen on my Win7 SM 2.22b2 Spell Checker screen.


--
Daniel

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190953

or

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Firefox/25.0 SeaMonkey/2.22 Build identifier: 20131023190942

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

Robert Kaiser wrote:

Ed Mullen schrieb:

I'm sure you're right. Presumably the volunteers all have actual jobs as
well.


Yes, mostly, and they probably won't give them up for a little bit of
donation money.

As I said, the more effective way to get things moving is to contribute
one's own time and try to get into "doing it" oneself.

Robert Kaiser


From a practical standpoint that is not viable, and I suspect 
(strongly) that you know it.  The vast majority of people here have no 
coding ability but do have a love of the product.  So, your suggestion 
is ... I'm a tad at a loss to characterize it ... but "pointless" comes 
to mind.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
"When your enemies are making mistakes, don't interrupt them." - from 
the film "Moneyball"

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Robert Kaiser wrote:

Ed Mullen schrieb:

I'm sure you're right. Presumably the volunteers all have actual jobs as
well.


Yes, mostly, and they probably won't give them up for a little bit of
donation money.

As I said, the more effective way to get things moving is to contribute
one's own time and try to get into "doing it" oneself.

Robert Kaiser


Someone claimed to be able to fix the drop down by changing a margin in 
via userChome.css, but hasn't shared the fix...that I've seen.


--
 - Rufus
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[sean nathan]

Geoff Welsh wrote, On 11/19/2013 07:37 PM:

»Q« wrote:

In,
SamuelS  wrote:


Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


There's nothing preventing this.  Users individually or in groups can
offer whatever they want for specific work.



I'll give Rufus a dollar to stop complaining about the drawn-short
drop-down boxes.  I don't need it fixed.  It doesn't affect functionality.

;-)

GW


I've yet to find a drop down box that isn't complete...


--
... Just because I can't understand what you're saying doesn't 
necessarily mean you're an artist...


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Robert Kaiser]

Ed Mullen schrieb:

I'm sure you're right. Presumably the volunteers all have actual jobs as
well.


Yes, mostly, and they probably won't give them up for a little bit of 
donation money.


As I said, the more effective way to get things moving is to contribute 
one's own time and try to get into "doing it" oneself.


Robert Kaiser
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Jens Hatlak]

Rufus wrote:

Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs,
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


Hey, actual examples! So, for the fun of it, let's check...

* Short drop downs. IIRC, this is a Mac-specific issue. Most SM 
developers don't have a Mac, and at least some, like me, don't want one 
(which is their personal taste, not to argue with). IIRC, there are only 
two SM developers who have a Mac at all, and both are known for having 
very little time. They do what they can, but analyzing the root causes 
of such bugs probably doesn't fit their time schedule. All you can do is 
a) analyze the bug as good as you can (e.g. by collecting all 
occurrences, making screen shots and attaching them to the bug) and b) 
try to narrow down when the issue first appeared, ideally down to the 
nightly builds level, so that identifying the causing change in code 
becomes possible.


* Path following. Sorry, don't know what you mean.

* Profile Manager. Don't know either, but AFAIK the Profile Manager code 
lives in shared code governed by Mozilla platform developers. Making 
changes their might be harder compared to SM-only code.


I'm not saying that a committed developer couldn't achieve something 
there. It's just much easier to fix well-known and -understood issues or 
implement new features where you have a clear understanding on what 
needs to be done technically and what needs to be kept in mind during 
development.


Beyond that, it cannot be repeated often enough, SM developers are doing 
everything they do in their free time, in addition to their day jobs. So 
as has already been said, money is not really a driving factor there. 
Knowledge in the field and time are.


Greetings,

Jens

--
Jens Hatlak 
SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker 
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ed Mullen]

Robert Kaiser wrote:

Ed Mullen schrieb:

I don't know why the devs haven't embraced the idea.


I think mostly because their problem for not doing more is not that they
have too little money, but that they have too little time.
Unfortunately, "time is money" does not really work in reality.

Robert Kaiser



I'm sure you're right. Presumably the volunteers all have actual jobs as 
well.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[sean nathan]

Ed Mullen wrote, On 11/19/2013 06:54 PM:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.

I have one or two fixes for which I Am prepared to pay to get updated
and repaired right away, if possible.

This also goes a long way to support the project too...

Just an idea to fast track some outstanding items.

Thanks for listening... and doing everything you do to support SM and
the end users. Truly labour and truly love.

SS


As someone who has been watching (and using) these products for decades
I find it interesting that no one has noted that this idea has been
floated multiple times in the past with no positive results.

I don't know why the devs haven't embraced the idea.  Perhaps no one has
developed the right infrastructure for payment?  Perhaps the mindset of
the devs is not well understood by we users?  Perhaps the whole process
of the devs doesn't lend itself to this solution?  Don't know.  I just
know that it hasn't resulted, in the past, in any positive action.

And, frankly, I doubt it will in the future.

The people who work on this project and give us this "product" to use
for free are not profit motivated at all.  So, I suspect, offering them
money is not going to work.  In fact, based on what I've observed, there
is nothing any of us users can do to greatly influence the process.  We
will be pleased if, by chance, our tastes align with those of the devs.
  If not?  Well, you read the rants here of those who aren't.

If you feel you should be heard, you might want to consider that your
ability to be heard, you ability to be listened to, you ability to
influence the direction of the product's devlopment is directly
proportional to what you pay for the product.

If you don't understand, let me know and I'll do the math for you.

So, bottom line for me?  I still like the product.  Until I don't I'll
keep using it.  Do I have carps and irritations?  Yep.  But, frankly,
I've given up on having any influence on the devs.

Once upon a time I wrote some software.  I gave it away.  It got rave
reviews from the, oh, maybe 30 people, who used it.  And, of course, the
flood of requests for changes and customizations flooded in.  And, hell,
I was flattered and accommodated every one.  And then said:  "Okay! This
isn't my job, I just did it on the side, now I have to go earn a living!!!"

That's called End-Of-Life.  I don't want that to happen to SeaMonkey.
So, some years ago I stopped badgering the devs, for the most part.

If you've not found another software solution better than SM then SM is
probably your best option.  Maybe encouraging the devs is better than
berating them?  Honey?  Vinegar?  Ya know?



2nd ... and a big AMEN!



--
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   Art is knowing which ones to keep"
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Robert Kaiser]

Ed Mullen schrieb:

I don't know why the devs haven't embraced the idea.


I think mostly because their problem for not doing more is not that they 
have too little money, but that they have too little time. 
Unfortunately, "time is money" does not really work in reality.


Robert Kaiser

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:

Philip Taylor wrote:



Trane Francks wrote:


On 11/20/13 7:16 AM +0900, Ray_Net wrote:



My idea is that it's better to collect votes to see if a new feature
needs to be implemented rather than voting for bugs.
Therefore there is no need to vote for solving bugs - Bugs must be
solved.
In fact, my opinion, order of priority is:
1. Security fixes.
2. Bugs correction.
3. Implementing new features.

And not the order 1., 3. then 2.


Yes, I completely agree with this. I would like to see SM bugs fixed
before implementing new features.


I also.
Philip Taylor


The problem is that for SM
 >>> 3. Implementing new features.
and to a large extent any >>> 2. Bugs corrections,
(unless they are of bugs introduced by SM),
is driven by forces external to SM, i.e,
changes to Mozilla, TB, and FF code.
This is due to the SM policy decision to track TB and FF
in all its' features, following Moz along from release to release.
So even if the resource problems went away SM would still have
all the same problems.

--
Rostyk


Certainly some of the most annoying ones - like the short drop downs, 
path following, the problems with the Profile Manager - are SM specific 
interface issues, right?  Why do bugs like these persist so long?


--
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[goodwin]

On 11/19/2013 09:01 AM, Larry S. wrote:


one person's bug is ofter another person's feature.


I've said that in the past - nice to know I'm not alone.
And it is a huge stumbling block...
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rostyslaw Lewyckyj]

Philip Taylor wrote:



Trane Francks wrote:


On 11/20/13 7:16 AM +0900, Ray_Net wrote:



My idea is that it's better to collect votes to see if a new feature
needs to be implemented rather than voting for bugs.
Therefore there is no need to vote for solving bugs - Bugs must be
solved.
In fact, my opinion, order of priority is:
1. Security fixes.
2. Bugs correction.
3. Implementing new features.

And not the order 1., 3. then 2.


Yes, I completely agree with this. I would like to see SM bugs fixed
before implementing new features.


I also.
Philip Taylor


The problem is that for SM
>>> 3. Implementing new features.
and to a large extent any >>> 2. Bugs corrections,
(unless they are of bugs introduced by SM),
is driven by forces external to SM, i.e,
changes to Mozilla, TB, and FF code.
This is due to the SM policy decision to track TB and FF
in all its' features, following Moz along from release to release.
So even if the resource problems went away SM would still have
all the same problems.

--
Rostyk
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Bill Davidsen wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to
get bug fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really
want them done ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let
us as either a group or individuals pay to get them done
quickly, of course security fixes are excluded.

I have one or two fixes for which I Am prepared to pay to get
updated and repaired right away, if possible.

This also goes a long way to support the project too...

Just an idea to fast track some outstanding items.

Thanks for listening... and doing everything you do to support
SM and the end users. Truly labour and truly love.

SS

Love this idea, and would contribute(a modest amount) toward the
effort. I do see one glitch in the idea, though, and it's
this--as a reader of this group for a number of years now, it
strikes me that one person's bug is ofter another person's
feature. The "bugs" are often desires for new features addressing
an individual's work methods.

To make the suggestion work, there need to be ways to resolve
issues about priorities. This has usually been decided by
developers, resulting in complaints.


I can't speak authoritatively, but my impression reading this NG
over the years is that the sticking point is not funding; rather,
since this is a volunteer operation, the sticking point is in
finding qualified people to take up a particular task and see it
through to completion. If no one picks up a particular issue, it
languishes. So if you really want to help, either start writing
code or find someone who can. (Of course, if you have millions of
bucks to throw around, that would attract good developers!)

And AFAIK the "desires for new features" are usually called
"requests for enhancement" or "RFE."


If these developers are consultants, then after N hours of donated
time it starts to hit their time for the bottom line. I don't know
what the answer is, but there's a lot of "so what" on minor bugs. I
found a bug in on drop down menu which listed the wrong shortcut keys
for Linux. I tried to get someone to fix this trivial spelling error
for ages, because if you used the shortcut it did something
destructive (don't remember what). The bug ran from 1.6 to being
fixed in 2.0, which was years, and every few weeks support would get
a call that they used a shortcut and composer ate their document.
Vast cost in support and user manual recovery, too trivial to fix.

This is not a bitch, it'ss a reason to explain in detail WHY a minor
bug isn't minor to you!


Your point is well taken, but I don't see why you're addressing it to 
me. I haven't trivialized anything you said.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Bill Davidsen]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Larry S. wrote:

SamuelS wrote:

Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.

I have one or two fixes for which I Am prepared to pay to get updated
and repaired right away, if possible.

This also goes a long way to support the project too...

Just an idea to fast track some outstanding items.

Thanks for listening... and doing everything you do to support SM and
the end users. Truly labour and truly love.

SS

Love this idea, and would contribute(a modest amount) toward the effort.
I do see one glitch in the idea, though, and it's this--as a reader of
this group for a number of years now, it strikes me that one person's
bug is ofter another person's feature. The "bugs" are often desires for
new features addressing an individual's work methods.

To make the suggestion work, there need to be ways to resolve issues
about priorities. This has usually been decided by developers, resulting
in complaints.


I can't speak authoritatively, but my impression reading this NG over the years
is that the sticking point is not funding; rather, since this is a volunteer
operation, the sticking point is in finding qualified people to take up a
particular task and see it through to completion. If no one picks up a
particular issue, it languishes. So if you really want to help, either start
writing code or find someone who can. (Of course, if you have millions of bucks
to throw around, that would attract good developers!)

And AFAIK the "desires for new features" are usually called "requests for
enhancement" or "RFE."

If these developers are consultants, then after N hours of donated time it 
starts to hit their time for the bottom line. I don't know what the answer is, 
but there's a lot of "so what" on minor bugs. I found a bug in on drop down menu 
which listed the wrong shortcut keys for Linux. I tried to get someone to fix 
this trivial spelling error for ages, because if you used the shortcut it did 
something destructive (don't remember what). The bug ran from 1.6 to being fixed 
in 2.0, which was years, and every few weeks support would get a call that they 
used a shortcut and composer ate their document. Vast cost in support and user 
manual recovery, too trivial to fix.


This is not a bitch, it'ss a reason to explain in detail WHY a minor bug isn't 
minor to you!


--
Bill Davidsen 
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Bill Davidsen]

Geoff Welsh wrote:

»Q« wrote:

In,
SamuelS  wrote:


Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


There's nothing preventing this.  Users individually or in groups can
offer whatever they want for specific work.



I'll give Rufus a dollar to stop complaining about the drawn-short drop-down
boxes.  I don't need it fixed.  It doesn't affect functionality.


Hogwash! It doesn't effect *your* functionality, if there's stuff you need at 
the bottom of the box it sure as hell does. Possibly related to subwindows 
having the same issue, and that's also an issue.



--
Bill Davidsen 
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010



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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Rufus]

Geoff Welsh wrote:

»Q« wrote:

In,
SamuelS  wrote:


Hello SM Team and participants.. I have an idea about how to get bug
fixes done, for those of us who really, really, really want them done
ASAP and then some...

How about assigning a monetary value to requested fixes and let us as
either a group or individuals pay to get them done quickly, of course
security fixes are excluded.


There's nothing preventing this.  Users individually or in groups can
offer whatever they want for specific work.



I'll give Rufus a dollar to stop complaining about the drawn-short
drop-down boxes.  I don't need it fixed.  It doesn't affect functionality.

;-)

GW


...$1 for all of the other that are seeing the same thing too, then!

Squeek until it's greased, folks!

--
 - Rufus
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ant]

On 11/19/2013 5:44 PM PT, Rufus typed:
...
> I'd also encourage those submitting bugs to write them in as much detail

as possible - always relate them to the platform on which they are found
on, but also continually update your submittal if the bug is not fixed
in a follow-on release.   One of the harder things for the developers to
do may be to duplicate your bug...so be specific, persistent, and write
well!


Yep. That is why I like to ask around to see if others have and 
reproduce the issues I ran into like my spellchecker in composer's 
subject line bug with real-time checker disabled. ;)

--
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 | |o   o| |
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Ant]

On 11/20/2013 1:31 AM PT, Philip Taylor typed:

>>> My idea is that it's better to collect votes to see if a new feature

needs to be implemented rather than voting for bugs.
Therefore there is no need to vote for solving bugs - Bugs must be
solved.
In fact, my opinion, order of priority is:
1. Security fixes.
2. Bugs correction.
3. Implementing new features.

And not the order 1., 3. then 2.


Yes, I completely agree with this. I would like to see SM bugs fixed
before implementing new features.


I also.


Ditto. It's not just SeaMonkey too.
--
"The ants and termites have renounced the Hobbesian war." --Petr Kropotkin
   /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
  / /\ /\ \Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
 | |o   o| |
\ _ /If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
 ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.
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Re: Funding and Bug Fixes....

[Philip Taylor]

Trane Francks wrote:

> On 11/20/13 7:16 AM +0900, Ray_Net wrote:

>> My idea is that it's better to collect votes to see if a new feature
>> needs to be implemented rather than voting for bugs.
>> Therefore there is no need to vote for solving bugs - Bugs must be
>> solved.
>> In fact, my opinion, order of priority is:
>> 1. Security fixes.
>> 2. Bugs correction.
>> 3. Implementing new features.
>>
>> And not the order 1., 3. then 2.
>>
> Yes, I completely agree with this. I would like to see SM bugs fixed
> before implementing new features.

I also.
Philip Taylor
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